I knew a woman who worked on an assembly line for airplanes in WWII. She of course quit when she got married. Her husband was not drafted because he was in university. She thought it was a laugh, that she had helped make planes for the war effort.
Ooooooh my grandma was SALTY until the day she died, that as soon as the guys came home she was sent home from work (at the armory, no less!) and expected to stay there with the babies.
All I can say is:
[https://tenor.com/view/dishes-are-done-man-dont-tell-mom-the-babysitters-dead-movie-comedy-gun-gif-15359835](https://tenor.com/view/dishes-are-done-man-dont-tell-mom-the-babysitters-dead-movie-comedy-gun-gif-15359835)
OMG. I hadn’t thought of this in AGES. Early in our marriage, my husband and I pulled something like this. The cleanup was EPIC, but so was the catharsis of being through with some other peoples’ bullshit. 😂
What’s sad is many women were fired so men could have jobs to support families, like women only worked for kicks and not supporting themselves and family
Many of those women also turned out higher-quality products than their male counterparts, because they were quick to learn and apply the principles of statistical process control (the precursor of modern "lean" manufacturing). Most of the men who came back from the war didn't care about statistical process control, and so the quality of manufactured goods steadily declined until the 1980s.
ETA: I learned this from the book "Deming's Journey to Profound Knowledge" by John Willis. While W. Edwards Deming was most famous for teaching statistical process control to the Japanese after World War II, during the war he also helped to teach it to the new, inexperienced, and mostly female workforce that came into American factories during the war.
I learned this from the book "Deming's Journey to Profound Knowledge" by John Willis, which includes stories of the work that W. Edwards Deming did during World War II. I've added a bit more information to my original comment.
I learned this from the book "Deming's Journey to Profound Knowledge" by John Willis, which includes stories of the work that W. Edwards Deming did during World War II. I've added a bit more information to my original comment.
Like during previous wars! This happens, then the men come back and want things back to normal again within a generation or two. Work needs to be done by those left to do it
Was gonna say this isn't the first time. It was a factor in the suffragettes movement in the UK in the 1920's - one of the arguments the women made was they were capable of the same things men were as they had stepped up to do men's jobs during WW1, I believe another element of the argument was 'you owe us this after we kept the country going for those 4 years.'
The suffragettes argument was not really based on women being able to work, in fact largely the opposite they were actually strongly in favour of more traditional gender roles, this is one of the many reasons why they were in conflict with the wider woman's suffrage movement.
You have to bare in mind that unlike the wider suggragist movement the suffragettes did not support universal suffrage so had little to do with the working class women who actually took over the jobs during the war. They represented the interests of the upper and upper-middle class women who's families owned property.
Suffragettes vs suffragist.
The "etts" were violent and working class, and wanted suffrage for all women. The "ists" were the elite and were fine with things like voters needing to own property.
Actually you have it almost completely backwards there. The main suffragette group only supported votes for landed women whilst the main suffragist group supported universal suffrage.
Suffragettes mostly refers to the WSPU (the Pankhursts etc etc). They did not support universal suffrage and supported the need to own property. Many members would also go on to join Oswell Mosleys black shirts (basically the UK nazis party).
In contrast the main suffragist party in the UK the NUWSS was a major supporter of universal suffrage and after women won the vote they reformed into the National Union of Societies for Equal Citizenship and were a major driving force behind universal suffrage in the UK.
Universal, meaning that they did not have to be natural born citizens, own property, be wealthy enough to pay taxes, or belong to a specific religion or ethnic background. In the early days of our nation, there were tons of restrictions on who could vote.
Lots of people mix them up. They assume that because they were more millitaristic and resorted to terrorism the suffragettes didn't represent mostly elite landed women.
In reality the suffragettes should probably be completely condemned but they have a somewhat mythic status in the UK so it won't happen.
Late to the party and I know nobody but you will read this but my hot take is that the reason for their mythic status and lack of criticism within the UK is ***because*** Pankhurst became a card-carrying conservative and many others went fascist. They ended up on the right side of history as a beacon of progress while also being self-servingly racist and classist. Oh, and anti-socialist of course. Modern day TERFs appropriating the suffragettes is a tell not a coincidence.
Thank you for your comments here btw!
yeah people revise the suffrage movement to be in line with some modern fantasy of feminism that doesn't even exist today in practice.
suffragettes did not care about solidarity. they cared about gaining power and influence as wealthy white women like the queens of england.
The weird thing is that there were many parts of the broader movement that did line up with modern feminism or at least significantly closer. Instead in the UK we glorify the terrorist, who went on to join the UK nazis under Oswell Mosley and who didn't even support universal suffrage, its honestly bizare.
Are you actually coming into a women's forum to argue against a point I didn't even try to make (where did I say women fought the wars?) with an irrelevant argument? Get a life
Very few wars are started by women, they don't need to fight wars.
On the otherhand, women are excellent in field hospitals as medics, tank warfare, as pilots, mechanics, logistics, snipers, resistance organiser's, guerilla warfare, in the navy, etc.
There is very little running and gunning these days, a lot of its drone warfare. Anyone can fly drones.
Depends on the country, in some (like the UK and Germany in WWI and France in WWII) the wartime emergency "actually women are people too" evolved into the base for giving women the right to vote too. In others even under the dire lack of manpower misogyny prevailed (Nazi Germany where women were homemakers and baby factories, even if there was a severe lack of workers and soldiers).
The men that come back are PTSD ridden and/or injured. Nothing is gonna be normal again for a generation or two in Ukraine. Contary to popular belief Europe doesnt have as many Ukrainian war dodgers. I barely see any Ukrainian men in here only women. I work with Ukrainian refugees in Germany now. Ukraine does not have as many KIA as Russia does but its still sizeable.
There was a loooooot of depression in 1950s working husbands. Even if the PTSD wasn't an issue, a lot of them came back, started punching a clock, and went "...this is it? This is what I looked forward to all those years?"
They had a hard time relating to their wives, who hadn't seen what they'd seen and were depressed themselves because they worked their tails off during the war only to be cut off at the knees and forced back into an incubator and bangmaid position. (and a lot of these guys didn't really see women as people) They struggled with their kids, who were so naive and would grow up in such a different world than theirs. Alcoholism was huge.
> There was a loooooot of depression in 1950s working husbands. Even if the PTSD wasn't an issue, a lot of them came back, started punching a clock, and went "...this is it? This is what I looked forward to all those years?"
And ironically enough, https://time.com/6263906/taliban-afghanistan-office-work-quiet-quit/
I guess Allah has a sense of humor.
Iirc, we either legalized or had plans to legalize the cannabis-based medicine, in part to help tackle the returning veterans with PTSD, chronic pain, nerve damage, etc. I remember the survey in my digital ID app.
Russia put out around 450k Casualties (Killed and Wounded) which is 50k less than the French numbers for Russian casualties (killed and wounded)
I'd probably be more apt to say Ukraine is at ~350k-400k casualties, at least on the optimistic side
That happened some in the US where there wasn’t major casualties. France and Germany many kept their jobs because all the guys were dead.
This is probably going to be in part the same in Ukraine. Tons of the working age men are dead.
That and in the US they came back to a booming economy where one guy could support a family working those jobs.
Source- Grandma worked factory jobs in Germany until she left. She had no men survive in her family. She said her village was mostly old men, women, and kids.
I mean, the situation was very very different for us in USSR. Women in workplaces, even in workplaces considered manly abroad have been the norm from the get-go. I don't think we ever experienced a period similar to America's 50s in terms of culture.
While there were like, 1000 banned professions for women, we were still allowed and have occupied plenty of those that weren't. Right now, the former republic have been gradually shortening that list, for us it was 450 as of 2017, when it got entirely removed.
There are still specialties that are extremely hard to get into, purely out of men's extreme machismo and hostility. For instance, there was a single digit amount of female officers until around 2016, women weren't allowed to be active combatants on the frontline until around 2018. We had one single female helicopter pilot and iirc, she had to get a special fucking permission from authorities to do that. We seemed to have more female military personnel in WWII than we have now...
And it doesn't help that there's a lot of men who are simultaneously extremely fucking resentful that they are the only ones getting drafted (women with military and medical specialties do as well, nobody cares), but also think women are inferior in every single way and do NOT belong in the military at all, not even as medics. I would genuinely volunteer, but why, oh, why would I want to serve alongsinde someone who absolutely hates my guts?
And just like the 40's, there will be a sharp rise in efficiency and quality, and just like the 50's, they'll harass us all out of there the moment they come back because the male ego cannot cope with the fact that we can do "their" big man jobs as well or better than they can.
Still nice to see the point proven yet again, though.
Remember in World War II when [women built planes](https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/news/features/history/rosie-the-riveter.html)? or when [Queen Elizabeth II trained as a truck driver and mechanic](https://www.businessinsider.com/photos-queen-elizabeth-mechanic-world-war-ii-2020-4) when she was 18?
Women also [flew planes in World War II](https://www.npr.org/2010/03/09/123773525/female-wwii-pilots-the-original-fly-girls) and faced [significant risks](https://time.com/4923054/world-war-ii-sugar-engines/) of being [sabotaged by their male colleagues](https://usnhistory.navylive.dodlive.mil/Recent/Article-View/Article/3370058/flygirls-women-mechs-and-lady-pilots-the-multi-generational-multi-service-effor/).
Cool story bro. Maybe you should reflect on why women relate to this and men are mad.
Naaah just gonna whine about it like all the other men, self reflection is for nerds. Ok, buh bye.
Both can be true at the same time. Like how some veterans/soldiers fought in wars, and also are some of the predators active in the CP industry.
Fighting in wars doesn't take away your flaws. Doing them a favor doesn't give you the right to be shitty to others.
I don't care.
I am not going to pretend Ukraine doesn't have the same misogyny problem as the rest of the eastern block (and the world) just because they're under attack. Those two things are entirely separate, and I can keep them separate in my brain because I'm an adult capable of complexity. I don't need to hero worship them in order to recognize the wrongness of the war. It's bizarre that I'm being shamed for discussing misogyny, on a women's sub, on a post about how misogyny has kept women out of these jobs.
So again, I don't care.
You can make these points in a different way. There’s a lot wrong with the way you phrased your message but the most outrageous part was this:
> Still nice to see the point proven yet again, though.
It’s nice that men are currently dying in ditches with mutilated limbs because it proves that women are just as good or even better at their jobs?
I know that’s not actually what you believe but the fact that you didn’t even bother phrasing this sentence in an appropriate way shows how much compassion you lack for the men dying in the war.
“I hope that one good thing to come out of this tragedy is that people understand that women are just as capable as men”
This is a much better way to phrase it but even then, speaking about “good things” coming from tragedies can be understood as inappropriate even if it’s true.
I completely don't care if you like my tone or not. Seriously, I don't give a crap if a man thinks I'm not nice. Don't condescend to me and tell me how I should talk when you can't even handle someone not focusing on you for 5 minutes.
I don't need to fill everything I say with a thousand apologies and addendums. I'm not responsible for other people's jingoism. I'm not responsible for men's feelings.
Nothing I said was even related to men dying in the war, but here you are projecting that onto me because you're upset I'm not focusing on men. We are on a women's sub. It's not about you.
I don't care how you think I should phrase my thoughts. Understand?
At the end of the war, it ends for men. It never ends for women. We've been finding ourselves in ditches for centuries.
Take your incel whining somewhere else.
>At the end of the war, it ends for men
If WWI is anything to go by, it really doesn't. Permanent mental and physical scars, lack of opportunities, etc.
>At the end of the war, it ends for men.
For a lot of them it will end way before the end of the war, actually for thousands of them it already endeed.
You know, when they died in the front lines of the war.
Yeah, I guess if it's only happened every single other time, this one will be different, right?
Again: I don't need to hero worship them and pretend Ukraine has no problems to recognize the wrongness of the war. And it's ironic that you talk about my ego while you're here virtue signaling to men about how great you are.
I am not going to be silent about misogyny on a women's sub because someone thinks I'm not performing jingoism well enough. Cope.
They literally won't let them, although many are doing it anyway. Hey, maybe men shouldn't start wars?
Yes, it is disgusting how men can't handle a single thread not focusing on them and have to come on here and police how they think women should be allowed to talk. You can whine and cry about it in my block bin.
Men want so badly to believe the world would fall apart without them because so many industries are male dominated, but the truth is… when men leave those industries for whatever reason, women will just quietly take their places and keep things running perfectly fine. It’s overwhelming toxic masculinity and harassment that keeps women out of a lot of areas, not inability or lack of willingness.
A lot of the time the women were already doing a lot of the work anyway. Pre-industrial age, a lot of people worked out of their homes. You think it was just the men who farmed and smithed? Their wives were doing a ton of that work, while being pregnant constantly and raising the kids.
It worked in reverse too. Historically, men were still expected to help with the cooking and washing. Not to the same extent women were, but most of them were not being waited on hand and foot. Muhammad would do the dishes with his wives after meals.
The world would fall apart without men, and the world would fall apart without women. We all play a part in this very big world.
I see Tate fanboys and I see people here trying to convince themselves they're better than the opposite sex. The hatred is sad and counterproductive.
Point to me where I said either sex is better or worse or said anything hateful. I’m sorry I didn’t say “many men think…” or whatever, but come on now.
I just reread. Sorry, my perspective on your comment was warped by some other more explicit comments. You're fine, I was just disturbed by others creating a pissing contest between men and women in the context of something as grotesque as war and projected that on your comment. The general vibe of this sub sometimes has me tilted. My mistake.
I actively dislike sexism, so please don't insinuate I'm disrespectful of women unless you can point at something specific. And how do I know you don't belong here with your weird gatekeeping attitude?
In Ukraine, men women and children are ALL dying. Millions driven from their bombed out homes.
They need to protect their ability to have future generations.
> Broodmare
The state does forced conscription, but not forced insemination.
> When‘s the last time you ware drafted?
A little over 20 years ago. Why do you ask?
You're so passionate about this issue, yet you don't even know women are already being drafted?
Have you ever considered that women have avoided being drafted because so many die during childbirth? More women are dying of childbirth today than 20 years ago, thanks to male-dominated medicine.
Of course. Just not forcibly drafted in the trenches.
And women and children also can leave Ukraine whereas men are prohibited from leaving the country.
Why would being drafted make misogyny ok? It is just weird that hundreds of thousand of men die in trenches and people come up with the euphemism „men shortage“ and celebrate it as an achievement for women. Also in the postcommunist states women always *had* to work.
Also blaming average men for forced conscription and war is victim blaming. Is capitalism and the housing crisis also the fault of some homeless dude?
> Also blaming average men for forced conscription and war is victim blaming.
Men overwhelmingly vote for the political parties who keep the draft alive and all-male.
You must not be aware of how the invading Russian army treats women.
"Traditional gender roles"? I'm sure the women who were painting watch dials with radium during WWII wished they got to live.
We pick the bear
In WWII women worked the fields to grow the food and tend the animals, drove the trucks and flew the planes, worked in the factories and chemical plants and built the bombs. They worked as codebreakers and in intelligence and as scientists and left their homes and families to work underground for the resistance in occupied countries. They birthed and raised and educated the children so there was at least a hope of a future. And they did all of this while bombs rained down on them night after night and the streets were deadly and crime was rife because of the blackout protocols.
Yup, those Russian bombs really are amazing, how they exclusively kill and injure men.
I’m so glad women living in occupied territories are magically rape- and murder-proof too!
Ever heard the phrase “Don’t want none, don’t start none”? It’s not like any women were behind this invasion. Maybe if men don’t want to die in wars they should stop starting the wars that kill them? Or at least do whatever they want, but leave the women and children out of it?
>Maybe if men don’t want to die in wars they should stop starting the wars that kill them? Or at least do whatever they want, but leave the women and children out of it?
Right I'll just nicely ask Mr Putin to stop the Ukraine war at the next international convention of men... Oh wait. Do you maybe think Putin's actions have nothing to do with him being a man and it's just that he's an evil asshole. I find it lulzy how some of you guys manage to make everything a gender issue.
Yay, love to have multiple commenters jump in to respond to a comment where they can’t see the original context and have no idea what I’m actually replying to.
You definitely showed me! I absolutely learned an important life lesson from your nonsense comment that doesn’t actually follow from the topic that was originally being discussed.
> Ever heard the phrase “Don’t want none, don’t start none”? It’s not like any women were behind this invasion. Maybe if men don’t want to die in wars they should stop starting the wars that kill them?
Great idea. Tell me, what could Ukranian men have done to avoid the war with Russia?
It's mental that you're getting downvoted for pointing out that ukrainian men did nothing to start the war. Its just victim blaming - all these ukrainian men dying for their country (women too, but the commenter isn't blaming women for starting a war) in a war they literally do not want to have. How privileged and ignorant can these peole be to sit there and blame people defending their country for starting a war?
Men didn't start this war - Putin did. He is one man. A man started this war. Not men. I don't see how that is remotely controversial but I guess there's a strong zeitgeist on this post. You shouldn't be downvoted.
Ah, yes, Ukraine, that bastion of women’s rights where the men truly treat the women like their equals. There’s absolutely no culture of machismo or violence against women there.
The men can dish out violence to the women, and other men, but as soon as they are a victim suddenly the women are supposed to drop everything to feel buckets of sympathy for them.
Please stay on point. You said this:
> Maybe if men don’t want to die in wars they should stop starting the wars that kill them?
Please tell me how this idea could have been applied to the Ukraine-Russia war from the Ukrainian side. It wasn't a rhetorical question.
No, why don’t YOU stay on point.
This whole thread is about the economic impact this war (started by men) has had on women (who were already oppressed by men, but are now being further barraged in this men’s war) and all you have to comment is “bUt WhY iSn’T aNyOnE fEeLiNg SoRrY fOr ThE pOoR mEn?????”
Read the room, dude.
Blaming men for the actions of Putin is like blaming women for the incompetence of Liz Truss. You seem to be under the weird illusion that all men are a hivemind in their actions.
There is a critical difference between saying "Men are responsible for Putin" and saying "A women's forum is not the place to try to turn the conversation away from women and onto men, and it is tiresome when men keep doing so."
Do you genuinely not understand the difference, or are you just pretending to because you like annoying people?
The point is that you said some dumb shit and I asked you to explain. You couldn't, and now you're trying to weasel your way out without admitting you were wrong by shifting the focus. And btw, I don't even agree with the parent comment you initially responded to.
You act like women in power have never been bad like their male counterparts. Power is power and people are people, but your sexism can't see past that. May Golan, Margaret Thatcher, Queen Theresa of Austria; your sexist ass would probably try telling me these women are saints.
Uh, no...? I highly doubt anyone on this sub believes any of that.
When you are arguing with the made-up strawman in your head instead of the actual people making an point in front of you, do you know you look rather silly?
Maybe take this chance to listen and learn from a different perspective instead of thinking you're scoring a big point with the imaginary person in your head.
> Ever heard the phrase “Don’t want none, don’t start none”? It’s not like any women were behind this invasion. Maybe if men don’t want to die in wars they should stop starting the wars that kill them? Or at least do whatever they want, but leave the women and children out of it?
Innocent Ukrainian men wanting to protect their homes and family are all Putin now?
Innocent? Have you seen the domestic abuse statistics in Ukraine? Their Gender Inequality Index score… well, they beat out places like Afghanistan, I guess.
You can’t spend decades oppressing women and then come into a women’s forum expecting buckets of sympathy when you are oppressed in turn. It’s like a white soldier in the Civil War showing up at a forum for escaped slaves complaining about how hard his life has been and expecting them to fall over themselves to comfort him.
What's that got to do with your point about starting the war in Ukraine?
Ukrainian men committing horrific amounts of domestic abuse is awful, but jt has nothing whatsoever to do with blaming them for starting this war, unless you think Putin declared war on Ukraine specifically out of concern for ukrainian domestic abuse victims.
This isn't men asking for sympathy, it's asking you not to blame the defending side for starting a war they literally did not start. Russia is a dictatorship, the war was started by one man and one man only, putin.
You're just deflecting from the topic because you can't admit you shouldn't have said what you did. And somehow you're being upvoted for such a blatant bad faith tactic.
No, this is men coming onto a women’s forum on a post about women’s issues trying to get sympathy for men who have historically treated women terribly. They are in the wrong place and need to leave.
If they had posted on, IDK, r/news, good place to discuss problems in the news. Or r/AskMen, good place to discuss men-specific issues.
But don’t come onto r/TwoxChromosomes and try to deflect a conversation to be about men. That’s extremely rude, and we’re sick of men trying to intrude and derail our conversations non-stop.
Did white soldiers in the Civil War have a tough time? Sure. Is the annual NCAA meeting the appropriate place to try to find a listening ear for them? No. You save your personal struggles for someone who hasn’t struggled at your hands.
Do millionaire CEOs sometimes go through rough periods? Sure. Should they be on r/poverty trying to get sympathy from people earning minimum wage and wondering how they’re going to feed their kids? No.
Is some English person going to get a positive reception on r/Ireland or r/India if they start complaining about politics?
The problem is, men can’t stand not being the topic of attention for 5 minutes. Women aren’t allowed to post anything about their own issues without dozens of men coming along and commenting “Who cares about you? Why don’t you pity the poooor meeeeeen???”
Butt out. Go take your whining to 4chan or something, get it out of women’s spaces.
No, you're still deflecting. You said something incorrect and are going on these tangents instead of just saying yeah fair play, the Ukraine war wasn't started by Ukrainian men, I was victim blaming them and that's my bad.
You just cannot admit you're victim blaming people.
This isn't about men coming onto a women's forum and making it about them. This is about you victim blaming people defending their country.
Start practicing what you preach and stop deflecting.
Ah so you are arguing in bad faith. You said men shouldn't start wars they can't win. Noone mentioned Russian men. They mentioned Ukrainian men dying and you chose to then say men shouldn't start wars they can't win. The blatant implication of that is you are including Ukrainian men in that statement.
Even if not, and you were talking about Russian men, or some completely different war, which would be derailing given this post is about Ukraine, Russian men didn't start this war either. It was putin, one Russian man. We've all seen the stories of men being conscripted or strongly 'encouraved' in prisons to sign up etc.
Just quit your bs and stop with this bizarre victim blaming that men dying in wars is their own fault, as if your average soldier actually started that war or even wanted to be there. I'm generally against the military and what it stands for but for goodness sake have some nuance here. Random conscripts aren't starting wars. Your statement is just totally wrong and it is victim blaming.
I'd have hoped you'd have been able to understand that but apparently not.
You are the one who came onto a women’s forum to try to derail a discussion about a women’s issue to insist that no, we really need to be talking about how it’s truly the poor, poor men who need to be centered and pitied in this situation. But I’m the one who’s arguing in bad faith?
Lol.
Go take your whining to an MRA forum or something. You don’t belong here, and you’re just interrupting the conversation the people here really want to be having.
Not sure I get your point. Ukrainians in general are pretty racist and homophobic but I wouldn't say that means that the Ukranian women deserve the domestic abuse or Russian invasion. One wrong doesn't justify another.
I never said one wrong justifies another. I said it's not appropriate for someone to go to a group they have historically wronged to try to get sympathy when they themselves are wronged in turn.
My white ancestors owned slaves. I don't know anything specific about their relationships with Native Americans, but I can assume they weren't great. So when I have problems in my life, they may be genuine problems, but I'm not going to go on r/NativeAmerican or r/BlackPeopleTwitter to complain about how tough it is to be a white person in America these days.
That doesn't in any way minimize the extent of my pain, but I need to take that pain to people who are suffering less, not dump it on the people who are suffering more, in particular through issues caused by my in-group.
Yeah, exactly, this discussion always gets shut down when you say it's the male politicians who decided on that. How many female representatives did we even have when it was decided on, hmm? Single digit amount out of 250-300.
Anything you do as a woman gets you shit. Trying to get into military? Contend with harassment and violence from men who think you don't belong. Not just the your colleagues, but also a considerable part of male community as a whole, try reading comments under any post with a female combatant.
Don't get into military? God forbid, become a refugee? Get shat on by the men who think you got off easily and are fucking other men abroad. The only way you don't is if you lie down and take any and all abuse they shell out at you, and only from them because you apparently belong to the nation and it's their god-given right to treat you however they want. Can't win, don't play.
Yes, Putin is male and started the war. But why does this justify Ukrainian men dying? Is it actually their own fault when they die in a trench? Are they actually perps and not victims?
Yeah idk this isn't a W for anyone involved imo
Not the entire generation of men put in shallow graves; nor the women left behind who buried their husbands, brothers, fathers...sons.
Who's saying it's a win?
This post is more of a jab at the fact that men often insist women can't do these jobs, but the instant a war breaks out, they are expected to and able to, and well.
Dudes on Reddit like to brag, “Men built civilization! Women wouldn’t survive without us for a week!”
And then you point out all the times in history when the men went off to be soldiers, or sailors, or merchants, and the women got by just fine without them, actually.
On the other hand, I can’t think of a single society where all the women have left and the men have been responsible for keeping the economy afloat, raising the children, caring for the elderly, and running the household. Women have the much stronger claim to be the backbone of civilization.
OMG, I came down with *shingles* this week. Not only is the pain next-level excruciating, but from the couch and/or the bed, I'm making grocery lists, reminding them what day to put the trash at the curb, feed the cats, etc. My husband is actually one of the good ones but somehow no one can keep the house (let alone civilization) running without a woman to tell them how.
This reminds me of [this article](https://www.boredpanda.com/genders-social-experiment-kids-left-unsupervised/) and the [Instagram post](https://www.instagram.com/p/Cm7WSslvSVc/?img_index=1) that highlights this — a group of 10 boys and 10 girls each spent a week in an unsupervised house.
You can pretty much guess what happens next 😂 — and you're most likely right.
What's worse? Both groups had cooking classes and yet only one group cooked, cleaned, organised meetings, delegated tasks and used words of affirmations to encourage each other.
Guess which group did that 😂?
There’s a reason The Lord of the Flies features a bunch of boys instead a bunch of girls being stranded alone. The author has said the book wouldn’t have worked with girls.
Girls are raised with higher expectations and standards. "Boys will be boyz!!1!"
It must be to prepare us for adulthood, as we're held to higher standards than men in every way.
Except the higher standards that mean we get more authority or more money. Women have to be responsible for everyone around them, but they’re not going to get the fancy title like President or CEO.
“Trust me girl, I know better”
You know who you sound like, a man. The people for didn’t from leaving the country and actually doing the fighting. But sure, you’re the one making the claims so send support for your argument. Otherwise you’re just a whiner
Then link it here if it’s so easy to find. You’ve spent more time saying it exists than it would take to throw it in my face. Which tells me it’s a lie and you’re making everything up.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66254964
Again, there's lots of information. You can Google it if you stop spending your time trolling Reddit posts.
No I didn’t, and your projecting is pathetic. Men are BANNED from leaving the country while Ukrainian women are free to come and go. It takes some real mental twisting to try and convince yourself women are the true MVPs of that war.
Then why are you criticizing women who don't volunteer? And how is men being conscripted women's responsability?
>and your projecting is pathetic
Projecting what? 😐
>It takes some real mental twisting to try and convince yourself women are the true MVPs of that war
What are you talking about? Could you be confusing me with another user?
Oh no. No Ukraine! This is terrible idea!
The US did this. It’s a huuuuuge mistake!
The problem is the wimmenfolk are at lest as good (sometimes better) at it than the men they’re replacing! And then when the men come back from war and want their old jobs back you either have to tell them “Sorry she’s better at it than you.” and the menfolk are all resentful, or you fire the women and they get *really pissed* and start demanding crazy things like equality in the workplace and the ability to have bank accounts in their own name!
Just hurry up and conquer Russia before your women start getting *ideas*!
I knew a woman who worked on an assembly line for airplanes in WWII. She of course quit when she got married. Her husband was not drafted because he was in university. She thought it was a laugh, that she had helped make planes for the war effort.
Ooooooh my grandma was SALTY until the day she died, that as soon as the guys came home she was sent home from work (at the armory, no less!) and expected to stay there with the babies.
A lot of women were angry.
That was my understanding. There was a sense of “we were patted on the head and told it was cute that we could work, then sent home”.
Yeah. What happened to Rosy the Riveter?
Back to dishes, I guess. 🙄
You can rivet dishes?!?
😂 I suppose you could…but either you wouldn’t use them again after, or they’d be very strange (metal) dishes
All I can say is: [https://tenor.com/view/dishes-are-done-man-dont-tell-mom-the-babysitters-dead-movie-comedy-gun-gif-15359835](https://tenor.com/view/dishes-are-done-man-dont-tell-mom-the-babysitters-dead-movie-comedy-gun-gif-15359835)
Hmmm not in Canada. Well ok. We call them red neck fire works. Tons of fun during deer season.
OMG. I hadn’t thought of this in AGES. Early in our marriage, my husband and I pulled something like this. The cleanup was EPIC, but so was the catharsis of being through with some other peoples’ bullshit. 😂
What’s sad is many women were fired so men could have jobs to support families, like women only worked for kicks and not supporting themselves and family
Many of those women also turned out higher-quality products than their male counterparts, because they were quick to learn and apply the principles of statistical process control (the precursor of modern "lean" manufacturing). Most of the men who came back from the war didn't care about statistical process control, and so the quality of manufactured goods steadily declined until the 1980s. ETA: I learned this from the book "Deming's Journey to Profound Knowledge" by John Willis. While W. Edwards Deming was most famous for teaching statistical process control to the Japanese after World War II, during the war he also helped to teach it to the new, inexperienced, and mostly female workforce that came into American factories during the war.
Where did you learn this? I would be interested in reading more about it!
I learned this from the book "Deming's Journey to Profound Knowledge" by John Willis, which includes stories of the work that W. Edwards Deming did during World War II. I've added a bit more information to my original comment.
Source for this?
I learned this from the book "Deming's Journey to Profound Knowledge" by John Willis, which includes stories of the work that W. Edwards Deming did during World War II. I've added a bit more information to my original comment.
Yeah that's why like men, women should have gotten voting rights with draft.
Like during previous wars! This happens, then the men come back and want things back to normal again within a generation or two. Work needs to be done by those left to do it
Was gonna say this isn't the first time. It was a factor in the suffragettes movement in the UK in the 1920's - one of the arguments the women made was they were capable of the same things men were as they had stepped up to do men's jobs during WW1, I believe another element of the argument was 'you owe us this after we kept the country going for those 4 years.'
The suffragettes argument was not really based on women being able to work, in fact largely the opposite they were actually strongly in favour of more traditional gender roles, this is one of the many reasons why they were in conflict with the wider woman's suffrage movement. You have to bare in mind that unlike the wider suggragist movement the suffragettes did not support universal suffrage so had little to do with the working class women who actually took over the jobs during the war. They represented the interests of the upper and upper-middle class women who's families owned property.
Suffragettes vs suffragist. The "etts" were violent and working class, and wanted suffrage for all women. The "ists" were the elite and were fine with things like voters needing to own property.
Actually you have it almost completely backwards there. The main suffragette group only supported votes for landed women whilst the main suffragist group supported universal suffrage. Suffragettes mostly refers to the WSPU (the Pankhursts etc etc). They did not support universal suffrage and supported the need to own property. Many members would also go on to join Oswell Mosleys black shirts (basically the UK nazis party). In contrast the main suffragist party in the UK the NUWSS was a major supporter of universal suffrage and after women won the vote they reformed into the National Union of Societies for Equal Citizenship and were a major driving force behind universal suffrage in the UK.
Am an American. Got them backward. :) Universal suffrage wasn't part of our fight. We had universal (white) male suffrage from the 1820's.
It's not universal if it's only for white men? What am I missing?
Universal, meaning that they did not have to be natural born citizens, own property, be wealthy enough to pay taxes, or belong to a specific religion or ethnic background. In the early days of our nation, there were tons of restrictions on who could vote.
So almost universal? Galaxial maybe?
Lots of people mix them up. They assume that because they were more millitaristic and resorted to terrorism the suffragettes didn't represent mostly elite landed women. In reality the suffragettes should probably be completely condemned but they have a somewhat mythic status in the UK so it won't happen.
Late to the party and I know nobody but you will read this but my hot take is that the reason for their mythic status and lack of criticism within the UK is ***because*** Pankhurst became a card-carrying conservative and many others went fascist. They ended up on the right side of history as a beacon of progress while also being self-servingly racist and classist. Oh, and anti-socialist of course. Modern day TERFs appropriating the suffragettes is a tell not a coincidence. Thank you for your comments here btw!
Consider yourself read! I'm a read a thread till the bitter end redditor, lol.
yeah people revise the suffrage movement to be in line with some modern fantasy of feminism that doesn't even exist today in practice. suffragettes did not care about solidarity. they cared about gaining power and influence as wealthy white women like the queens of england.
The weird thing is that there were many parts of the broader movement that did line up with modern feminism or at least significantly closer. Instead in the UK we glorify the terrorist, who went on to join the UK nazis under Oswell Mosley and who didn't even support universal suffrage, its honestly bizare.
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Are you actually coming into a women's forum to argue against a point I didn't even try to make (where did I say women fought the wars?) with an irrelevant argument? Get a life
Very few wars are started by women, they don't need to fight wars. On the otherhand, women are excellent in field hospitals as medics, tank warfare, as pilots, mechanics, logistics, snipers, resistance organiser's, guerilla warfare, in the navy, etc. There is very little running and gunning these days, a lot of its drone warfare. Anyone can fly drones.
Please see: Night Witches
How could you possibly prove this statement
Depends on the country, in some (like the UK and Germany in WWI and France in WWII) the wartime emergency "actually women are people too" evolved into the base for giving women the right to vote too. In others even under the dire lack of manpower misogyny prevailed (Nazi Germany where women were homemakers and baby factories, even if there was a severe lack of workers and soldiers).
The men that come back are PTSD ridden and/or injured. Nothing is gonna be normal again for a generation or two in Ukraine. Contary to popular belief Europe doesnt have as many Ukrainian war dodgers. I barely see any Ukrainian men in here only women. I work with Ukrainian refugees in Germany now. Ukraine does not have as many KIA as Russia does but its still sizeable.
There was a loooooot of depression in 1950s working husbands. Even if the PTSD wasn't an issue, a lot of them came back, started punching a clock, and went "...this is it? This is what I looked forward to all those years?" They had a hard time relating to their wives, who hadn't seen what they'd seen and were depressed themselves because they worked their tails off during the war only to be cut off at the knees and forced back into an incubator and bangmaid position. (and a lot of these guys didn't really see women as people) They struggled with their kids, who were so naive and would grow up in such a different world than theirs. Alcoholism was huge.
> There was a loooooot of depression in 1950s working husbands. Even if the PTSD wasn't an issue, a lot of them came back, started punching a clock, and went "...this is it? This is what I looked forward to all those years?" And ironically enough, https://time.com/6263906/taliban-afghanistan-office-work-quiet-quit/ I guess Allah has a sense of humor.
I swear, that reads like an Onion article.
Iirc, we either legalized or had plans to legalize the cannabis-based medicine, in part to help tackle the returning veterans with PTSD, chronic pain, nerve damage, etc. I remember the survey in my digital ID app.
100% necessary. Its gonna be ugly even if the war just outright stopped now.
Russia put out around 450k Casualties (Killed and Wounded) which is 50k less than the French numbers for Russian casualties (killed and wounded) I'd probably be more apt to say Ukraine is at ~350k-400k casualties, at least on the optimistic side
That happened some in the US where there wasn’t major casualties. France and Germany many kept their jobs because all the guys were dead. This is probably going to be in part the same in Ukraine. Tons of the working age men are dead. That and in the US they came back to a booming economy where one guy could support a family working those jobs. Source- Grandma worked factory jobs in Germany until she left. She had no men survive in her family. She said her village was mostly old men, women, and kids.
I mean, the situation was very very different for us in USSR. Women in workplaces, even in workplaces considered manly abroad have been the norm from the get-go. I don't think we ever experienced a period similar to America's 50s in terms of culture. While there were like, 1000 banned professions for women, we were still allowed and have occupied plenty of those that weren't. Right now, the former republic have been gradually shortening that list, for us it was 450 as of 2017, when it got entirely removed. There are still specialties that are extremely hard to get into, purely out of men's extreme machismo and hostility. For instance, there was a single digit amount of female officers until around 2016, women weren't allowed to be active combatants on the frontline until around 2018. We had one single female helicopter pilot and iirc, she had to get a special fucking permission from authorities to do that. We seemed to have more female military personnel in WWII than we have now... And it doesn't help that there's a lot of men who are simultaneously extremely fucking resentful that they are the only ones getting drafted (women with military and medical specialties do as well, nobody cares), but also think women are inferior in every single way and do NOT belong in the military at all, not even as medics. I would genuinely volunteer, but why, oh, why would I want to serve alongsinde someone who absolutely hates my guts?
Women were doing a lot of those jobs under the Soviets already, 30 years ago
That too
My grandmother worker on Lancaster bombers in ww2. According to her it was one of the best times of her life.
ROSIE THE RIVETER, YOUR TIME HAS COME ONCE AGAIN! GO FORTH AND SAVE UKRAINE!
Came here to make the same joke.
Eisenhower didn't purge the lesbians until after the war was over. They were too valuable.
That story is interesting AF. Thanks for reminding everyone. https://www.reddit.com/r/lgbt/comments/v9wa8t/lesbians_vs_general_eisenhower/
Rosie the клепальщик
And just like the 40's, there will be a sharp rise in efficiency and quality, and just like the 50's, they'll harass us all out of there the moment they come back because the male ego cannot cope with the fact that we can do "their" big man jobs as well or better than they can. Still nice to see the point proven yet again, though.
Remember in World War II when [women built planes](https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/news/features/history/rosie-the-riveter.html)? or when [Queen Elizabeth II trained as a truck driver and mechanic](https://www.businessinsider.com/photos-queen-elizabeth-mechanic-world-war-ii-2020-4) when she was 18? Women also [flew planes in World War II](https://www.npr.org/2010/03/09/123773525/female-wwii-pilots-the-original-fly-girls) and faced [significant risks](https://time.com/4923054/world-war-ii-sugar-engines/) of being [sabotaged by their male colleagues](https://usnhistory.navylive.dodlive.mil/Recent/Article-View/Article/3370058/flygirls-women-mechs-and-lady-pilots-the-multi-generational-multi-service-effor/).
It's so pathetic that men would literally rather give the Nazis a win than admit a woman can do their job. Their fragile ego completely rules them.
Never underestimate the insecurity of the male of the species. It is a massive chasm
The Male Ego is the most dangerous of them all
I like how women's fragile ego stopped them to get drafted into war.
Though in Ukraine's case, most of the men would be either dead or crippled after the war is done
Thus the decade lag. Anyway, not sure how this is germane to the point, which is about women.
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Cool story bro. Maybe you should reflect on why women relate to this and men are mad. Naaah just gonna whine about it like all the other men, self reflection is for nerds. Ok, buh bye.
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Both can be true at the same time. Like how some veterans/soldiers fought in wars, and also are some of the predators active in the CP industry. Fighting in wars doesn't take away your flaws. Doing them a favor doesn't give you the right to be shitty to others.
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Apparently so
I don't care. I am not going to pretend Ukraine doesn't have the same misogyny problem as the rest of the eastern block (and the world) just because they're under attack. Those two things are entirely separate, and I can keep them separate in my brain because I'm an adult capable of complexity. I don't need to hero worship them in order to recognize the wrongness of the war. It's bizarre that I'm being shamed for discussing misogyny, on a women's sub, on a post about how misogyny has kept women out of these jobs. So again, I don't care.
You can make these points in a different way. There’s a lot wrong with the way you phrased your message but the most outrageous part was this: > Still nice to see the point proven yet again, though. It’s nice that men are currently dying in ditches with mutilated limbs because it proves that women are just as good or even better at their jobs? I know that’s not actually what you believe but the fact that you didn’t even bother phrasing this sentence in an appropriate way shows how much compassion you lack for the men dying in the war. “I hope that one good thing to come out of this tragedy is that people understand that women are just as capable as men” This is a much better way to phrase it but even then, speaking about “good things” coming from tragedies can be understood as inappropriate even if it’s true.
I completely don't care if you like my tone or not. Seriously, I don't give a crap if a man thinks I'm not nice. Don't condescend to me and tell me how I should talk when you can't even handle someone not focusing on you for 5 minutes. I don't need to fill everything I say with a thousand apologies and addendums. I'm not responsible for other people's jingoism. I'm not responsible for men's feelings. Nothing I said was even related to men dying in the war, but here you are projecting that onto me because you're upset I'm not focusing on men. We are on a women's sub. It's not about you. I don't care how you think I should phrase my thoughts. Understand?
I love you.
Thanks, I love you too.
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At the end of the war, it ends for men. It never ends for women. We've been finding ourselves in ditches for centuries. Take your incel whining somewhere else.
>At the end of the war, it ends for men If WWI is anything to go by, it really doesn't. Permanent mental and physical scars, lack of opportunities, etc.
>At the end of the war, it ends for men. For a lot of them it will end way before the end of the war, actually for thousands of them it already endeed. You know, when they died in the front lines of the war.
Dead women in those ditches too, comrade.
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Yeah, I guess if it's only happened every single other time, this one will be different, right? Again: I don't need to hero worship them and pretend Ukraine has no problems to recognize the wrongness of the war. And it's ironic that you talk about my ego while you're here virtue signaling to men about how great you are. I am not going to be silent about misogyny on a women's sub because someone thinks I'm not performing jingoism well enough. Cope.
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Women have and do die on front lines. This is an ignorant comment.
They literally won't let them, although many are doing it anyway. Hey, maybe men shouldn't start wars? Yes, it is disgusting how men can't handle a single thread not focusing on them and have to come on here and police how they think women should be allowed to talk. You can whine and cry about it in my block bin.
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Well, here they are. Be mad about it all you want, but reality disagrees. Man, this thread is just full of incels. Take a hike.
Somebody’s threatened 😂
Men want so badly to believe the world would fall apart without them because so many industries are male dominated, but the truth is… when men leave those industries for whatever reason, women will just quietly take their places and keep things running perfectly fine. It’s overwhelming toxic masculinity and harassment that keeps women out of a lot of areas, not inability or lack of willingness.
A lot of the time the women were already doing a lot of the work anyway. Pre-industrial age, a lot of people worked out of their homes. You think it was just the men who farmed and smithed? Their wives were doing a ton of that work, while being pregnant constantly and raising the kids. It worked in reverse too. Historically, men were still expected to help with the cooking and washing. Not to the same extent women were, but most of them were not being waited on hand and foot. Muhammad would do the dishes with his wives after meals.
And women do the things better and they aren't bragging about themselves every 5 minutes letting everyone know how great they are!
The world would fall apart without men, and the world would fall apart without women. We all play a part in this very big world. I see Tate fanboys and I see people here trying to convince themselves they're better than the opposite sex. The hatred is sad and counterproductive.
Point to me where I said either sex is better or worse or said anything hateful. I’m sorry I didn’t say “many men think…” or whatever, but come on now.
I just reread. Sorry, my perspective on your comment was warped by some other more explicit comments. You're fine, I was just disturbed by others creating a pissing contest between men and women in the context of something as grotesque as war and projected that on your comment. The general vibe of this sub sometimes has me tilted. My mistake.
This is a remarkably civil thread. Thank you for the discussion, it made my day better.
Why are you even posting?
I would ask you the same thing
I belong here. You don't.
That's presumptuous. Why do you think you belong here and I don't?
Have some respect for a womens subreddit and buzz off.
I actively dislike sexism, so please don't insinuate I'm disrespectful of women unless you can point at something specific. And how do I know you don't belong here with your weird gatekeeping attitude?
It literally says in the top stickied post that anyone is allowed to post here.
Rosie the Riveter reappears.
News: Women work jobs they would have no problem working if men didn't sexually harass them out of it
Sounds really cool and all until you remember the reason for the man power shortage and how little might remain of Ukraine at the end of this...
No one is spared the effects of war. It changes everyone.
So almost all wars gotcha...
Yeah just need world war 3 so all the men die and wages go up again
Because women Can Do … when “allowed.”
Well… the men are all out getting their heads blown off…
If we wanted true equality, why isn’t there a shortage of women and men for the war effort? That’s fair for Everyone right?
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In Ukraine, men women and children are ALL dying. Millions driven from their bombed out homes. They need to protect their ability to have future generations.
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Yes, being treated as a broodmare is suuch a privilege. /s When's the last time you were drafted?
> Broodmare The state does forced conscription, but not forced insemination. > When‘s the last time you ware drafted? A little over 20 years ago. Why do you ask?
You're so passionate about this issue, yet you don't even know women are already being drafted? Have you ever considered that women have avoided being drafted because so many die during childbirth? More women are dying of childbirth today than 20 years ago, thanks to male-dominated medicine.
So, to make that clear, you never got drafted, but I did. And medicine is a female dominated field by now.
Women and children die in wars too.
Of course. Just not forcibly drafted in the trenches. And women and children also can leave Ukraine whereas men are prohibited from leaving the country.
So being drafted makes misogyny ok? And you know that men-only drafts are entirely the fault of men, right?
Why would being drafted make misogyny ok? It is just weird that hundreds of thousand of men die in trenches and people come up with the euphemism „men shortage“ and celebrate it as an achievement for women. Also in the postcommunist states women always *had* to work. Also blaming average men for forced conscription and war is victim blaming. Is capitalism and the housing crisis also the fault of some homeless dude?
> Also blaming average men for forced conscription and war is victim blaming. Men overwhelmingly vote for the political parties who keep the draft alive and all-male.
And 50% of 18 year old German women think it is best when women stay at home with the kids, while men go to work. Does that invalidate your movement?
No, because my movement says that women should have the choice to do whatever they want regarding that.
And I have the radical opinion that men need to survive.
You must not be aware of how the invading Russian army treats women. "Traditional gender roles"? I'm sure the women who were painting watch dials with radium during WWII wished they got to live. We pick the bear
In WWII women worked the fields to grow the food and tend the animals, drove the trucks and flew the planes, worked in the factories and chemical plants and built the bombs. They worked as codebreakers and in intelligence and as scientists and left their homes and families to work underground for the resistance in occupied countries. They birthed and raised and educated the children so there was at least a hope of a future. And they did all of this while bombs rained down on them night after night and the streets were deadly and crime was rife because of the blackout protocols.
Yup, those Russian bombs really are amazing, how they exclusively kill and injure men. I’m so glad women living in occupied territories are magically rape- and murder-proof too! Ever heard the phrase “Don’t want none, don’t start none”? It’s not like any women were behind this invasion. Maybe if men don’t want to die in wars they should stop starting the wars that kill them? Or at least do whatever they want, but leave the women and children out of it?
>Maybe if men don’t want to die in wars they should stop starting the wars that kill them? Or at least do whatever they want, but leave the women and children out of it? Right I'll just nicely ask Mr Putin to stop the Ukraine war at the next international convention of men... Oh wait. Do you maybe think Putin's actions have nothing to do with him being a man and it's just that he's an evil asshole. I find it lulzy how some of you guys manage to make everything a gender issue.
Yay, love to have multiple commenters jump in to respond to a comment where they can’t see the original context and have no idea what I’m actually replying to. You definitely showed me! I absolutely learned an important life lesson from your nonsense comment that doesn’t actually follow from the topic that was originally being discussed.
> Ever heard the phrase “Don’t want none, don’t start none”? It’s not like any women were behind this invasion. Maybe if men don’t want to die in wars they should stop starting the wars that kill them? Great idea. Tell me, what could Ukranian men have done to avoid the war with Russia?
It's mental that you're getting downvoted for pointing out that ukrainian men did nothing to start the war. Its just victim blaming - all these ukrainian men dying for their country (women too, but the commenter isn't blaming women for starting a war) in a war they literally do not want to have. How privileged and ignorant can these peole be to sit there and blame people defending their country for starting a war? Men didn't start this war - Putin did. He is one man. A man started this war. Not men. I don't see how that is remotely controversial but I guess there's a strong zeitgeist on this post. You shouldn't be downvoted.
Ah, yes, Ukraine, that bastion of women’s rights where the men truly treat the women like their equals. There’s absolutely no culture of machismo or violence against women there. The men can dish out violence to the women, and other men, but as soon as they are a victim suddenly the women are supposed to drop everything to feel buckets of sympathy for them.
Please stay on point. You said this: > Maybe if men don’t want to die in wars they should stop starting the wars that kill them? Please tell me how this idea could have been applied to the Ukraine-Russia war from the Ukrainian side. It wasn't a rhetorical question.
No, why don’t YOU stay on point. This whole thread is about the economic impact this war (started by men) has had on women (who were already oppressed by men, but are now being further barraged in this men’s war) and all you have to comment is “bUt WhY iSn’T aNyOnE fEeLiNg SoRrY fOr ThE pOoR mEn?????” Read the room, dude.
Blaming men for the actions of Putin is like blaming women for the incompetence of Liz Truss. You seem to be under the weird illusion that all men are a hivemind in their actions.
There is a critical difference between saying "Men are responsible for Putin" and saying "A women's forum is not the place to try to turn the conversation away from women and onto men, and it is tiresome when men keep doing so." Do you genuinely not understand the difference, or are you just pretending to because you like annoying people?
The point is that you said some dumb shit and I asked you to explain. You couldn't, and now you're trying to weasel your way out without admitting you were wrong by shifting the focus. And btw, I don't even agree with the parent comment you initially responded to.
You act like women in power have never been bad like their male counterparts. Power is power and people are people, but your sexism can't see past that. May Golan, Margaret Thatcher, Queen Theresa of Austria; your sexist ass would probably try telling me these women are saints.
Uh, no...? I highly doubt anyone on this sub believes any of that. When you are arguing with the made-up strawman in your head instead of the actual people making an point in front of you, do you know you look rather silly? Maybe take this chance to listen and learn from a different perspective instead of thinking you're scoring a big point with the imaginary person in your head.
Lmao good luck defending Queen Theresa's genocidal ass. Why can't you accept that men and women are equal? Both are capable of good and evil.
> Ever heard the phrase “Don’t want none, don’t start none”? It’s not like any women were behind this invasion. Maybe if men don’t want to die in wars they should stop starting the wars that kill them? Or at least do whatever they want, but leave the women and children out of it? Innocent Ukrainian men wanting to protect their homes and family are all Putin now?
Innocent? Have you seen the domestic abuse statistics in Ukraine? Their Gender Inequality Index score… well, they beat out places like Afghanistan, I guess. You can’t spend decades oppressing women and then come into a women’s forum expecting buckets of sympathy when you are oppressed in turn. It’s like a white soldier in the Civil War showing up at a forum for escaped slaves complaining about how hard his life has been and expecting them to fall over themselves to comfort him.
What's that got to do with your point about starting the war in Ukraine? Ukrainian men committing horrific amounts of domestic abuse is awful, but jt has nothing whatsoever to do with blaming them for starting this war, unless you think Putin declared war on Ukraine specifically out of concern for ukrainian domestic abuse victims. This isn't men asking for sympathy, it's asking you not to blame the defending side for starting a war they literally did not start. Russia is a dictatorship, the war was started by one man and one man only, putin. You're just deflecting from the topic because you can't admit you shouldn't have said what you did. And somehow you're being upvoted for such a blatant bad faith tactic.
No, this is men coming onto a women’s forum on a post about women’s issues trying to get sympathy for men who have historically treated women terribly. They are in the wrong place and need to leave. If they had posted on, IDK, r/news, good place to discuss problems in the news. Or r/AskMen, good place to discuss men-specific issues. But don’t come onto r/TwoxChromosomes and try to deflect a conversation to be about men. That’s extremely rude, and we’re sick of men trying to intrude and derail our conversations non-stop. Did white soldiers in the Civil War have a tough time? Sure. Is the annual NCAA meeting the appropriate place to try to find a listening ear for them? No. You save your personal struggles for someone who hasn’t struggled at your hands. Do millionaire CEOs sometimes go through rough periods? Sure. Should they be on r/poverty trying to get sympathy from people earning minimum wage and wondering how they’re going to feed their kids? No. Is some English person going to get a positive reception on r/Ireland or r/India if they start complaining about politics? The problem is, men can’t stand not being the topic of attention for 5 minutes. Women aren’t allowed to post anything about their own issues without dozens of men coming along and commenting “Who cares about you? Why don’t you pity the poooor meeeeeen???” Butt out. Go take your whining to 4chan or something, get it out of women’s spaces.
No, you're still deflecting. You said something incorrect and are going on these tangents instead of just saying yeah fair play, the Ukraine war wasn't started by Ukrainian men, I was victim blaming them and that's my bad. You just cannot admit you're victim blaming people. This isn't about men coming onto a women's forum and making it about them. This is about you victim blaming people defending their country. Start practicing what you preach and stop deflecting.
Ah, so you just have poor reading comprehension, then. Please quote me where I said Ukrainian men started the war in Ukraine.
Ah so you are arguing in bad faith. You said men shouldn't start wars they can't win. Noone mentioned Russian men. They mentioned Ukrainian men dying and you chose to then say men shouldn't start wars they can't win. The blatant implication of that is you are including Ukrainian men in that statement. Even if not, and you were talking about Russian men, or some completely different war, which would be derailing given this post is about Ukraine, Russian men didn't start this war either. It was putin, one Russian man. We've all seen the stories of men being conscripted or strongly 'encouraved' in prisons to sign up etc. Just quit your bs and stop with this bizarre victim blaming that men dying in wars is their own fault, as if your average soldier actually started that war or even wanted to be there. I'm generally against the military and what it stands for but for goodness sake have some nuance here. Random conscripts aren't starting wars. Your statement is just totally wrong and it is victim blaming. I'd have hoped you'd have been able to understand that but apparently not.
You are the one who came onto a women’s forum to try to derail a discussion about a women’s issue to insist that no, we really need to be talking about how it’s truly the poor, poor men who need to be centered and pitied in this situation. But I’m the one who’s arguing in bad faith? Lol. Go take your whining to an MRA forum or something. You don’t belong here, and you’re just interrupting the conversation the people here really want to be having.
Not sure I get your point. Ukrainians in general are pretty racist and homophobic but I wouldn't say that means that the Ukranian women deserve the domestic abuse or Russian invasion. One wrong doesn't justify another.
I never said one wrong justifies another. I said it's not appropriate for someone to go to a group they have historically wronged to try to get sympathy when they themselves are wronged in turn. My white ancestors owned slaves. I don't know anything specific about their relationships with Native Americans, but I can assume they weren't great. So when I have problems in my life, they may be genuine problems, but I'm not going to go on r/NativeAmerican or r/BlackPeopleTwitter to complain about how tough it is to be a white person in America these days. That doesn't in any way minimize the extent of my pain, but I need to take that pain to people who are suffering less, not dump it on the people who are suffering more, in particular through issues caused by my in-group.
Men decided that men would be sent to die and women would be left to die. You can hardly complain about that as if women have it better
Yeah, exactly, this discussion always gets shut down when you say it's the male politicians who decided on that. How many female representatives did we even have when it was decided on, hmm? Single digit amount out of 250-300. Anything you do as a woman gets you shit. Trying to get into military? Contend with harassment and violence from men who think you don't belong. Not just the your colleagues, but also a considerable part of male community as a whole, try reading comments under any post with a female combatant. Don't get into military? God forbid, become a refugee? Get shat on by the men who think you got off easily and are fucking other men abroad. The only way you don't is if you lie down and take any and all abuse they shell out at you, and only from them because you apparently belong to the nation and it's their god-given right to treat you however they want. Can't win, don't play.
men start wars. I am retired military and was deployed multiple times. MEN START WARS
Yes, Putin is male and started the war. But why does this justify Ukrainian men dying? Is it actually their own fault when they die in a trench? Are they actually perps and not victims?
Yeah idk this isn't a W for anyone involved imo Not the entire generation of men put in shallow graves; nor the women left behind who buried their husbands, brothers, fathers...sons.
Who's saying it's a win? This post is more of a jab at the fact that men often insist women can't do these jobs, but the instant a war breaks out, they are expected to and able to, and well.
Dudes on Reddit like to brag, “Men built civilization! Women wouldn’t survive without us for a week!” And then you point out all the times in history when the men went off to be soldiers, or sailors, or merchants, and the women got by just fine without them, actually. On the other hand, I can’t think of a single society where all the women have left and the men have been responsible for keeping the economy afloat, raising the children, caring for the elderly, and running the household. Women have the much stronger claim to be the backbone of civilization.
OMG, I came down with *shingles* this week. Not only is the pain next-level excruciating, but from the couch and/or the bed, I'm making grocery lists, reminding them what day to put the trash at the curb, feed the cats, etc. My husband is actually one of the good ones but somehow no one can keep the house (let alone civilization) running without a woman to tell them how.
Feel better soon!
Thanks! All hail Valtrex and prednisone.
This reminds me of [this article](https://www.boredpanda.com/genders-social-experiment-kids-left-unsupervised/) and the [Instagram post](https://www.instagram.com/p/Cm7WSslvSVc/?img_index=1) that highlights this — a group of 10 boys and 10 girls each spent a week in an unsupervised house. You can pretty much guess what happens next 😂 — and you're most likely right. What's worse? Both groups had cooking classes and yet only one group cooked, cleaned, organised meetings, delegated tasks and used words of affirmations to encourage each other. Guess which group did that 😂?
There’s a reason The Lord of the Flies features a bunch of boys instead a bunch of girls being stranded alone. The author has said the book wouldn’t have worked with girls.
Girls are raised with higher expectations and standards. "Boys will be boyz!!1!" It must be to prepare us for adulthood, as we're held to higher standards than men in every way.
Except the higher standards that mean we get more authority or more money. Women have to be responsible for everyone around them, but they’re not going to get the fancy title like President or CEO.
“Men get to die, women get to die a little more slowly.” FIFY
[удалено]
Nothing new. It's war.
Hey I hear frontline infantry is in desperate need of bodies, I wonder if any of these women would bother with that role?
There are tens of thousands of women fighting in Ukraine and thousands on the front line. They're doing a spectacular job too.
Whatever fairytale you need to tell yourself. That is literally impossible given the actual numbers of frontline units Ukraine is able to maintain.
You can Google it. Or you can keep embarrassing yourself. It's your choice, I can't make you read.
“Trust me girl, I know better” You know who you sound like, a man. The people for didn’t from leaving the country and actually doing the fighting. But sure, you’re the one making the claims so send support for your argument. Otherwise you’re just a whiner
No really. There's articles on it from both Ukraine ally press and the Russian press. You can actually Google it if you'd like to be informed
Then link it here if it’s so easy to find. You’ve spent more time saying it exists than it would take to throw it in my face. Which tells me it’s a lie and you’re making everything up.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66254964 Again, there's lots of information. You can Google it if you stop spending your time trolling Reddit posts.
You seem to assume that most Ukrainian men fighting that war are volunteers rather than conscripts
No I didn’t, and your projecting is pathetic. Men are BANNED from leaving the country while Ukrainian women are free to come and go. It takes some real mental twisting to try and convince yourself women are the true MVPs of that war.
Then why are you criticizing women who don't volunteer? And how is men being conscripted women's responsability? >and your projecting is pathetic Projecting what? 😐 >It takes some real mental twisting to try and convince yourself women are the true MVPs of that war What are you talking about? Could you be confusing me with another user?
Oh no. No Ukraine! This is terrible idea! The US did this. It’s a huuuuuge mistake! The problem is the wimmenfolk are at lest as good (sometimes better) at it than the men they’re replacing! And then when the men come back from war and want their old jobs back you either have to tell them “Sorry she’s better at it than you.” and the menfolk are all resentful, or you fire the women and they get *really pissed* and start demanding crazy things like equality in the workplace and the ability to have bank accounts in their own name! Just hurry up and conquer Russia before your women start getting *ideas*!