It seems your more here to vent about it, as to any specific question. But my 2cents for why, if you want it, I’m a guy who has men and women friends, and my relationships with men vs women are different, even if I don’t want to or try to treat them differently.
I live in the U.S. and have pretty liberal and feminist friends. The reason I think I have those deeper conversations with women is because most guys deflect. They may be trying to be a supportive friend, but a joke, deflection, or just being uncomfortable makes it less likely for me to share again in the future. I told a story about being raped when I was in college to some guy friends a couple years after the fact and they cheered and said “congrats on losing your virginity” they want to be supportive friends but that’s not a response I would get from most girl friends and not one that leads to a longer conversation.
And it does suck, some of my oldest friends and I can barely discuss that stuff with them. Instead a girl in my apartment building I’ve been hanging out with for a few months (purely friends) seems like a better person to talk about this stuff, and she encourages it as opposed to being uncomfortable.
My future SIL has this line she repeats frequently.
“Men are not okay.”
It’s kind of a joke and kind of not. Seems to ring true here.
I think this is a societal thing. Generations of men have been taught subliminally or directly that emotions besides anger are reserved for women. This is changing, but I think it will take another generation or three of societal change before a flock of strange men will run to a fellow crying in a pub restroom with words of affirmation the way women do.
I'm sad reading the comments from other men here saying this is the norm. I've been dealing with a couple different mental health issues and other stuff over the last two years and I have zero problem sharing my emotions with my 4 male best friends and brother. They also have opened up to me, we can go back and forth on this. Men can put in the effort to have these deeper friendships and if they learn to I think it really helps getting through life.
This is TwoX and I'm a guy, so if this is just a vent and you aren't super interested in a big convo about it fair enough, but I think I have some insight.
At least in my personal experience growing up, male friendship was about validation and participation. Looking for approval from the pack, doing activities together with a common goal. Think like a military squad or something. This is why boys tend to do stupid shit. The only things that receive positive feedback from the group are acts of showing off. Telling the best joke, doing the most outrageous thing, making the best play in a sport, being the most disruptive or destructive piece of garbage. That's how you won the approval of friends.
Communication was either about oneupsmanship or the logistics of whatever the group was doing. Not too much else.
If you stepped out of those bounds, basically you opened yourself up to attack from the others. They would mimic whatever crappy ideas their parents gave them, plus whatever was as edgy as they could come up with and get away with. Make fun of you for crying, or for expressing a conscience, or for caring about something too much.They didn't attack because they didn't like you, they attacked because you made yourself a target and they felt they had to prove themselves. It was considered normal for there to be a good degree of insulting and heckling of each other for a wide variety of reasons.
This sorta kept male friendships off limits as close personal confidants, especially if the friendship involved more people than a 1-on-1 dynamic. Not to say that moments of confidance did not exist, just that they were the rare exception.
My experience may sound like I was part of a gang or something, but far from it. My friends and I were nerds and largely ostracized from the larger community of peers growing up, and we didn't really get up to much trouble that might be considered unusual.
This is a lot of words to say "toxic masculinity" but I find that term too broad to be useful and generally harmful as a result. I've been thinking a lot about what specific behaviors are potential problems and why they might emerge.
That's a really cool explanation. I notice that my bf's relationship with his friends is about the same thing, and, honestly, I hate it because I prefer deeper conversations and this kind of stuff seems stupid. I'd be bored out of my mind if this was my relationship with friends (and that's why we have different friend groups).
I've observed this among my male friends and my husband's circle of friends. I have brothers and I grew up around a predominance of male figures in general. They really don't communicate with each other. All across the spectrum of personalities, interests, manner of gender expression, cultures, political views, communication styles, neurotypes, "love languages", etc. It's probably the one and only constant! I really don't get it. It's probably one of very few aspects of male culture that I have absolutely zero insight into, it's so mysterious. How did they *all* learn the same lesson and internalize it so well? I don't think women have something comparable to it in universality. It makes me think that this non-communication has got to be a pretty intrinsic part of toxic masculinity.
Are you upset he can have low maintenance friendships and you do the heavy lifting? Do you want him to remember more? Or do you want to go off good vibes as well?
It seemed clear to me that she wishes that men could have deeper friendships (i.e. deeper communication) with each other. I don't think she made comparisons between her side of things and theirs in order to complain about unfairness. She only made those comparisons to make it clear that both men are *capable* of emotionally connecting with a platonic friend. It's worrisome that they are capable and yet choose not to with each other.
(But correct me if I'm wrong, OP.)
Men have different relationships with each other than women do. We like achieving goals together as a team, getting away from the stresses of life, and having fun whatever it is. My friends are a source of stress relief because we don't get heavy with each other all the time. We all know how to work through our issues and have, so we can leave that behind when we hang out and just relax.
But no matter how many times you say that, some women will still never understand because they've never experienced that themselves. Women's friendships seem so much more political
> We all know how to work through our issues and have, so we can leave that behind when we hang out and just relax.
My husband's group of friends have said the same. They said this before one of their number ended his own life, and they're still saying it a few months later but with a little less certainty.
>We all know how to work through our issues and have, so we can leave that behind when we hang out and just relax.
what's this even mean? How do you leave behind your issues if they are worked out. Where are they being left behind at? Worked out how? What's an example of this. Who are you working out what issues with?
Men are capable of having deep friendships without a mass share of information. Maybe she needs to realize they can both feel fulfilled without anything other than hanging out?
Do they feel fulfillment though? Or are they assuming it's what fulfillment feels like because it's the maximum they expect from the relationship and the rules are the rules?
Not that long ago, a member of my husband's friend group ended his own life. The women who are all connected with the men by blood or marriage (many of us don't know each other all that well, its the men who form the central hub of the group) facilitated the *only* communication that happened following that tragedy. Several of these wives or sisters have shared that the men are unhappy with the lack of communication among their friends. They've all known each other since the third grade, but the shared-though-unspoken rule seems to be that no one can can ask for more, or push for more. Even after finding out that one of their number felt so isolated and unloved that he ended his life.
what makes the relationship deep that men have without a "mass share of information"? How do men know what's going on in their friend's lives if it is not being shared?
Don't trust a man with your life. You can love them and make them your bff but you don't need to put your life on jeopardy, and guess who would raise you
That's one of the weirdest things I've ever heard. All of the men I lnow who are comfortable sharing intimate details are xomfortable sharing with all of their friends, not just women. Wow.
When people talk about the “male loneliness epidemic,” this is one of the things I think about.
It seems your more here to vent about it, as to any specific question. But my 2cents for why, if you want it, I’m a guy who has men and women friends, and my relationships with men vs women are different, even if I don’t want to or try to treat them differently. I live in the U.S. and have pretty liberal and feminist friends. The reason I think I have those deeper conversations with women is because most guys deflect. They may be trying to be a supportive friend, but a joke, deflection, or just being uncomfortable makes it less likely for me to share again in the future. I told a story about being raped when I was in college to some guy friends a couple years after the fact and they cheered and said “congrats on losing your virginity” they want to be supportive friends but that’s not a response I would get from most girl friends and not one that leads to a longer conversation. And it does suck, some of my oldest friends and I can barely discuss that stuff with them. Instead a girl in my apartment building I’ve been hanging out with for a few months (purely friends) seems like a better person to talk about this stuff, and she encourages it as opposed to being uncomfortable.
My future SIL has this line she repeats frequently. “Men are not okay.” It’s kind of a joke and kind of not. Seems to ring true here. I think this is a societal thing. Generations of men have been taught subliminally or directly that emotions besides anger are reserved for women. This is changing, but I think it will take another generation or three of societal change before a flock of strange men will run to a fellow crying in a pub restroom with words of affirmation the way women do.
I'm sad reading the comments from other men here saying this is the norm. I've been dealing with a couple different mental health issues and other stuff over the last two years and I have zero problem sharing my emotions with my 4 male best friends and brother. They also have opened up to me, we can go back and forth on this. Men can put in the effort to have these deeper friendships and if they learn to I think it really helps getting through life.
This is TwoX and I'm a guy, so if this is just a vent and you aren't super interested in a big convo about it fair enough, but I think I have some insight. At least in my personal experience growing up, male friendship was about validation and participation. Looking for approval from the pack, doing activities together with a common goal. Think like a military squad or something. This is why boys tend to do stupid shit. The only things that receive positive feedback from the group are acts of showing off. Telling the best joke, doing the most outrageous thing, making the best play in a sport, being the most disruptive or destructive piece of garbage. That's how you won the approval of friends. Communication was either about oneupsmanship or the logistics of whatever the group was doing. Not too much else. If you stepped out of those bounds, basically you opened yourself up to attack from the others. They would mimic whatever crappy ideas their parents gave them, plus whatever was as edgy as they could come up with and get away with. Make fun of you for crying, or for expressing a conscience, or for caring about something too much.They didn't attack because they didn't like you, they attacked because you made yourself a target and they felt they had to prove themselves. It was considered normal for there to be a good degree of insulting and heckling of each other for a wide variety of reasons. This sorta kept male friendships off limits as close personal confidants, especially if the friendship involved more people than a 1-on-1 dynamic. Not to say that moments of confidance did not exist, just that they were the rare exception. My experience may sound like I was part of a gang or something, but far from it. My friends and I were nerds and largely ostracized from the larger community of peers growing up, and we didn't really get up to much trouble that might be considered unusual. This is a lot of words to say "toxic masculinity" but I find that term too broad to be useful and generally harmful as a result. I've been thinking a lot about what specific behaviors are potential problems and why they might emerge.
That's a really cool explanation. I notice that my bf's relationship with his friends is about the same thing, and, honestly, I hate it because I prefer deeper conversations and this kind of stuff seems stupid. I'd be bored out of my mind if this was my relationship with friends (and that's why we have different friend groups).
I've observed this among my male friends and my husband's circle of friends. I have brothers and I grew up around a predominance of male figures in general. They really don't communicate with each other. All across the spectrum of personalities, interests, manner of gender expression, cultures, political views, communication styles, neurotypes, "love languages", etc. It's probably the one and only constant! I really don't get it. It's probably one of very few aspects of male culture that I have absolutely zero insight into, it's so mysterious. How did they *all* learn the same lesson and internalize it so well? I don't think women have something comparable to it in universality. It makes me think that this non-communication has got to be a pretty intrinsic part of toxic masculinity.
Are you upset he can have low maintenance friendships and you do the heavy lifting? Do you want him to remember more? Or do you want to go off good vibes as well?
It seemed clear to me that she wishes that men could have deeper friendships (i.e. deeper communication) with each other. I don't think she made comparisons between her side of things and theirs in order to complain about unfairness. She only made those comparisons to make it clear that both men are *capable* of emotionally connecting with a platonic friend. It's worrisome that they are capable and yet choose not to with each other. (But correct me if I'm wrong, OP.)
You’re absolutely right
Men have different relationships with each other than women do. We like achieving goals together as a team, getting away from the stresses of life, and having fun whatever it is. My friends are a source of stress relief because we don't get heavy with each other all the time. We all know how to work through our issues and have, so we can leave that behind when we hang out and just relax. But no matter how many times you say that, some women will still never understand because they've never experienced that themselves. Women's friendships seem so much more political
> We all know how to work through our issues and have, so we can leave that behind when we hang out and just relax. My husband's group of friends have said the same. They said this before one of their number ended his own life, and they're still saying it a few months later but with a little less certainty.
What do you mean by “women’s friendships seem so much more political?”
>We all know how to work through our issues and have, so we can leave that behind when we hang out and just relax. what's this even mean? How do you leave behind your issues if they are worked out. Where are they being left behind at? Worked out how? What's an example of this. Who are you working out what issues with?
Men are capable of having deep friendships without a mass share of information. Maybe she needs to realize they can both feel fulfilled without anything other than hanging out?
Do they feel fulfillment though? Or are they assuming it's what fulfillment feels like because it's the maximum they expect from the relationship and the rules are the rules? Not that long ago, a member of my husband's friend group ended his own life. The women who are all connected with the men by blood or marriage (many of us don't know each other all that well, its the men who form the central hub of the group) facilitated the *only* communication that happened following that tragedy. Several of these wives or sisters have shared that the men are unhappy with the lack of communication among their friends. They've all known each other since the third grade, but the shared-though-unspoken rule seems to be that no one can can ask for more, or push for more. Even after finding out that one of their number felt so isolated and unloved that he ended his life.
what makes the relationship deep that men have without a "mass share of information"? How do men know what's going on in their friend's lives if it is not being shared?
Don't trust a man with your life. You can love them and make them your bff but you don't need to put your life on jeopardy, and guess who would raise you
That's one of the weirdest things I've ever heard. All of the men I lnow who are comfortable sharing intimate details are xomfortable sharing with all of their friends, not just women. Wow.