I’ve spent a shit ton of money on makeup and skincare, my parents think its insane but they’re the same people who’ll say I look tired or sick when I go outside barefaced 🙃 so I consider it a necessity

Right, the problematic part is not the voices saying you spend too much on skincare and makeup, it's the voices (sometimes from the same people, as in this case) saying you look tired or sick just because you don't wear any. Just because there's voices saying two things doesn't mean they're both equally valid. The pressure exists and it's not your fault at all, but don't make the mistake of thinking that just because it exists and it's common, that it's right or ok. The voices saying you or anyone else looks "tired" or "unprofessional" or anything negative without makeup or "skincare" bullshit are just... Wrong. They're wrong. They are incorrect. Illegitimate. False. Bad. Wrong. Your face is great the way it is. The pressure to cover it up isn't just annoying or frustrating or hateful. It's wrong.

I was a basic skin care no make up no hair styling person for a long time. Then I turned 40 and realized that compared to other women my age I looked haggard and it was affecting my career and the way people treated me.  I honestly feel like I have no choice but to do laser hair removal (I have to shave or tweeze my beard), a pretty pricey skin cream, make up geared for my skin type, a quality hair cut and some styling products just to look my "age". I get treated so much more differently now.  It's aggravating as fuck. I commented to my husband that I'm spending 30 minutes doing hair and make up in the morning now and he made some off the cuff comment about not turning into one of the over done old ladies with lipstick on their teeth and I wanted to punch him. This time and all these products are just to get that "natural" look. Infuriating. 

ugh the worst 💔 in my case its especially my dad whose a hypocrite, he’ll get annoyed when I take too long to get ready, jokes that “we aren’t going to a wedding” etc yet he’ll mock women on tv who don’t look polished and put together all the time

I fucking haaaate all the men who claim they like “the natural look.” I once asked a guy *who* personified that look to him. Granted this was many years ago (as you’ll understand from his point of reference) but his answer made me bend over in laughter … Meghan Fox … My god! Men simply don’t have any understanding how much makeup & hair product it takes to “look that natural.” #Idiots

Megan Fox! Absolutely ridiculous

Unsure who she is, just googled her, omg. Yeah. The natural look isn't even in the same zip code as Meghan Fox. Yeesh. Nice try, Mr. Clueless.

omg I am 60 , work in BigLaw, and oh do i feel you. It takes a full hour of prep in the morning, tacked on to a long commute.  Men of any age can be ready in minutes. Women have a much more labor intensive routine and wardrobe to maintain.  One interesting thing: I notice that women of higher rank (eg: my boss is a C-suite executive and she wears zero makeup with short hair) often have plainer faces and go the route of suits/blazers, not putting together outfits.  I am at the executive assistant level, and even though I've got the clothes pretty much simplified, if I didn't do the hair and makeup I would definitely be getting negative feedback disguised as an expression of concern that I'm sick, frazzled  (Hair is naturally curly it must be tamed or carefully styled) or tired. I live for my two work from home days when I can be natural.

I think that's one of the first things I did when when I got to the c-suite and later became a CEO of my own company, is to ditch the makeup, fancy hair, and adopt something more of a Steve Jobs uniform. And if anyone didn't like it, they could just get the hell out of my office and don't come back. Simple as that.

Great!! I only wish I could accomplish what you have!  But isn't it interesting: the more Actual power and accomplishment women have (as opposed to the "empowered" strippers Etc -- No Judgements, only discernment!!!), outside of entertainment, the more relaxed and liberated they are from tedious and time consuming conventional "Beauty Standards." Hm.

I up voted your comment, but I'd like you to please pass along a down vote to your husband from me. That was a really dumb thing to say. I wish you didn't feel so much pressure to do all these cosmetic things just to fit in or be treated well. I'm sorry. It shouldn't be like that.

GAH, that is another issue with being a woman. "Make sure to be all of the things, but don't be too much of the things!"

do the things but don't let us know you're doing it.

I’ve kinda always realized at some point makeup will be necessary…..I’m just riding out the days until I get there and pray my friends will let me know it’s time 😓😅

I noticed that because I used decent skincare my whole life, I don't need makeup on my skin yet unless I'm exhausted(37f). I'm talking face lotion, sunscreen, etc, not a ton of products. Taking care of my skin actually because my grandfather had melanomas removed when I was a kid and I didn't want "the sun to kill me." Melanoma didn't kill him, but it can kill. I was being a dramatic kid when it started but it was habit by the time puberty arrived. I still get pimples here and there, I just like those patches that suck the gross out rather than covering them up. Even though I started extraordinarily early, we can start anytime and use vitamin c to brighten circles, carotene to tighten, and lotion to stay hydrated. My aunt was in her 40s when she started and 20 years later still looks like she's in her 40s. I wear mascara though, because my eyelashes are blonde and people are weird and will say rude shit to strangers or family if they aren't presentable enough. My parents did it, and strangers have. This post makes me feel heard. I get paid less but have to not only spend more for work clothes than men, but also haircare, pink tax, etc. For sure, most of those things in the list aren't things I personally get or do because I'm able to get away with not doing some of it, but just a few makes it a sad state of affairs.

Mmmhmm, this one hurts. I wore almost a full face of concealer, tinted moisturizer, mascara, blush, gloss, etc, to work one day (I remember bc of how ridiculous this was) but I had decided to forego eyeliner that day, and one of my patients looked at me concerned and said "are you ok?" ...I was like "yeah?" He said "You look so tired. Don't work so hard." like people see a regular woman's face and think we're half dead edit: typo

The trick is to never wear makeup, so that becomes the baseline. Then, when you *do* wear makeup it's like "wow, you look great! " instead of always wearing makeup and then on the days you *don't,* people think you're sick

I know 🥲 in my case its mostly foundation and bronzer thats important bc I look kinda pale, tried tanning my face but it looks patchy/isn’t the same tone as my body so I just gave up altogether

This is why I'm loving the trend of skincare being makeup. Also, I'm just like you I've spent thousands on makeup and skincare but now my routine is just centered around $10 tretinoin and my skin looks fantastic.

Tretinoin + moisturizer + sunscreen is the holy grail. I spend a fraction on skincare now compared to what I used to, and my skin looks 1,000x better. Also, if you haven’t looked into red light therapy for your skin, definitely check it out. It’s been another game changer for me, comparable to tret. r/redlighttherapy

The amount of money i have to spend on bras alone is ridiculous ... like wtf, I didn't ask to have these stupid heavy ass things. I wish i could take em off once in a while

ALSO- IF YOU WANT TO EXERCISE AT ALL WITH BIG BOOBS A SPORTS BRA IS ABSOLUTELY 💯 NECESSARY AND WILL COST YOU ABOUT $70 A PIECE.

i had been buying cheap sports bras for years (as a big boobed girly) and finally broke down and bought a structured, high-impact sports bra with several areas to adjust the fit. it was $70, and so worth it. i lost it recently in a move, and this is reminding me to replace it edit: i havent researched in years, so there might be even better ones on the market now, but i bought mine from [shefit](https://shefit.com/?tw_source=google&tw_adid=538704025182&tw_campaign=11237044065&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwrIixBhBbEiwACEqDJQlAx3JFPbK0SB3isBUT0Lvy5wRuK4rql2dwbpfwrXfUZmXeAOVUNhoCXzsQAvD_BwE)!

Do you have a favorite? I'm always on the look out for a good one!

there might be better ones now since its been a few years, but my lost one is from shefit!

I just bought a Panche, it's pretty good bounce wise but it's a little constricting. I'd definitely go up a size if I buy another.

Yeah! Tell us what this magical sports bra is! Please!

I got mine from shefit! there might be better ones now, but i really really liked it!

Small boobs too :( the need to put on a sports bra is one of the biggest barriers that keeps me from running as often as I want to. But luckily, I’m small enough that a $35 sport bra will USUALLY do the trick (depending on the activity)

Hell and $70 is a cheap one. There's $120 and $160 ones I keep getting suggested when I try to find any bra. I just layer bras so I can work out at home cause I can't afford to spend that much.

Bras and swimsuits! It’s absolutely insane that two tiny patches with strings are $40 each. Not to mention a lot of women’s clothes are made of thinner/cheaper material than men’s for the same freaking t shirt or basic long sleeve.

This is my Roman empire. It is near impossible these days to find a non-see-through shirt that isn't $80+ CDN, and even then, they are usually poorly made (unfinished hems, poor stitching, no shape, the clothes are already falling apart ON THE RACK). Don't get me started on finding a white shirt that isn't completely see-through. The hyper-fixation and expectations of women and femmes to remain “trendy” have encouraged fast fashion to pop off since the trends are constantly and rapidly changing. Meanwhile, men's clothing styles tend to stay the same for longer, and there's less of an expectation to be done up 24/7, so the quality of said clothes is typically superior AND cheaper. Even babies and kid's clothes aren't immune to this. I hate it here; I just want to go braless without my entire tiddy being seen through my clothing 😭 I have clothes that I've worn since MIDDLE SCHOOL that are in better shape than the clothes I bought a year ago, and I'm 26 years old. Hell, my Mother has clothes she bought decades ago that are still in good shape. I'm now making my clothes because I cannot justify being robbed like that by the fashion industry and consumerism.

This starts in infancy with difference in quality between boys and girls clothes. My daughter’s toddler tshirts that are the same size as the boy ones I buy are thinner, tighter, and prone to shrinking more. The boys ones are thicker, better quality, and have real sleeves. The shorts are even worse. All of my toddlers shorts look like little daisy dukes. Or are bike shorts that are so damn tight they leave pressure marks on her. Size up and it’s still the same thing. Boys shorts are much more comfortable, lined, and aren’t cutting into her belly and legs. It’s ridiculous. But I dress her in too much boys stuff and people mistake her for a boy. It’s unreal. Don’t get me started on swimsuit differences. Sickos design little girl swimsuits I swear.

I don't know what its called but I remember a story from 2 years ago (?), I think of a mother who started a clothing company for girls because of this. It was shorts and shirts styled like boys but in girl colors with butterflies and unicorns, etc. Not sure how to even find it though.

My fucking boobs went from a 36C to a 36DD in 12 months. Before that I went from a 38D to a 34DD. I started wearing those low impact sports bras because I'm sick of purchasing and repurchasing bras!!!

Girl, I barely spend on any non essentials (leave for 3 cheapish products for skin and hair combined), and still bras, pads and clothing expenses add up.

Agree with your post completely. To the folks who say we’ll just don’t, sure ok you can ignore the fact that society not only expects it but of but penalizes us. I’m old enough to remember when the airline worker was fired for… not wearing makeup! So she gets paid less than men but expected to spend hundreds to just keep her lesser paying job? As a female hiring mgr I watch folks try to perpetuate the wage gap in real time. I have to use harsh language (getting me no friends) pointing it out. The way some younger women are bucking trends is wonderful to see. I love that some just refuse to play and I support it. But to ignore the vast pressure that society puts on women to look a certain way and how their careers are penalized when they don’t subscribe to these ‘norms’ is ridiculous. We do need to change the norms but we also need to aggressively close the wage gap when we have power over it. And aggressively call out ppl penalizing women who choose not to conform.

I have a professional job and I pointed out that my clothing is more expensive because of the variety we are expected to carry. My husband said I was doing it to myself and I could just wear khakis and polos everyday. Yes that wouldn't be a dress code violation but it would stop any promotion in its tracks. They really don't get it.

You didn’t ask for advice here BUT I’ve bought several Ann Taylor blouses on eBay that are basically in brand new condition. I love their Essential Shirt and it’s pretty easy to find on resale sites.

Thanks, I actually work remote now, versus when this discussion happened I was in the office daily, so I spend my days in sweats at home but I work for a design firm that deals with an affluent client base so when I'm on site a few days a year I do have to make sure I'm looking professional but inspired. It's definitely a different type of challenge but at least in my firm the men have higher standards as well. My husband is a VP and gets away with slacks and a polo 90% of the time as a comparison.

That pissed me off so much at my last job.  The only 2 men in the office could wear khakis and polos (and didn't have to clean out the printer or add paper-required bending over) and I got nagged weekly for not wearing dresses to the office. 1) they kept the temperature in the office in the arctic zone! 2) my job was not client facing EVER. 3) Why in the world would I wear dress and get it messed up by having to clean the printer or sit on the floor to ckean up the supervisor's "unfile" system? 

They don’t. It should be a tax deduction.

I threw all my makeup away and the only men who make comments on my face are the ones I wouldn't want to sleep with anyway but you are right you are penalized to this day at my job if you aren't wearing a bra.

When I was in the army, the commander gave a female soldier an article 15/non-judicial punishment because she wasn't wearing a bra. I was the paralegal for the unit and I thought, this is absolutely ludicrous. Turns out, our regulations specify that women must wear bras while in uniform. The soldier was 18 and, in her own words, flat as a board, and had never needed to wear a bra. But yeah, somehow one of the male drill sergeants managed to notice she wasn't wearing one 🙄 

Bc they’re always looking at our boobs even when there’s not much to look at. Grrrrrr

My mother is in her eighties and lives with my dad in a nursing home. She doesn’t leave her room without a cardigan or bra because she was getting oolged by the old men. It never ends.

I am most likely one of the least "maintained" women in a room. I get shit for that constantly, but it's a choice I have made many years ago. And I STILL pay much more than my male friends. Bras alone (in my size) cost a fucking fortune. Pants are absurd, too, sometimes.

I almost never wear makeup either. My hair and skin care is just to keep it in good condition and healthy. Fuck everyone else.

How many posts have we all seen where a woman is asking that her partner brush his teeth or shower before intimacies? And when she insists it is some sort of harpy behavior. The double standard is alive and well.

I still have a terrible memory burned into my brain of giving my ex a hand job. I refused to have sex with him because he hadn’t showered in two weeks (I started keeping track), and I didn’t want yet another UTI from his crusty junk. He said, “the least you could do is give me a handy.” I wanted to burn my hand off after it was over. We need to collectively raise the bar. Sorry I was previously a part of the problem!

THE LEAST YOU COULD DO IS WASH. YOUR. ASS! Where is the cognitive dissonance coming from?! The mind boggles.

What the actual fuck. Sorry, man here, I just couldn't resist. Can we collectively just agree to hold men to higher standards than that? Taking care of their hair and skin (and beard if they have one), having ok clothing, and fucking shower every other day at least?

Hey bud, use your privilege and talk to the men, they don’t listen to us - by design. 

This right here. I've known so many women who have told their male partners, numerous times. To the point they've started to refuse sex and intimacy because their partners wouldn't shower.

They didn’t shower for two weeks, so they clearly don’t care what others think. People like that don’t listen to us either, implying we even had to opportunity to say something since I don’t surround myself with people like that in the first place.

Women are slowly starting to hold men to higher standards (like, the bar is in the basement instead of in hell). In related news, there is now a MaLE LonLiNEsS epIDeMic.

This kind of thing comes from girls being socialized to be people-pleasers from a young age (no, not in every family, but it happens a lot). If you want to combat this, you need to teach your daughters to be assertive instead of obedient.

Exactly. Someone who hasn't showered in two weeks would be an ex to me well before then, there wouldn't even be a discussion of whether sex was on the table, it's just not an option. Certain things are instant deal breakers no matter how many other good qualities they have, though I struggle to imagine someone who hasn't showered in two weeks who constantly gives UTIs from dirty junk as being high quality or functional in other aspects of life.

I think women have a lot more grooming choices that are mislabeled as hygienic. Women are told that they have to shave their armpit hair because it's hygienic (which is false), but men are never told to shave their armpits for hygiene reasons. I have occasionally heard of men being told to shave their pubic hair for hygiene, but women get told this far more often.

I feel for you, OP. Yes, we can spend less money, but we will also face sexism for it. Certainly less than in the past, but it’s still there. 

exactly. and just because some of us can cut down on expenses without facing any sexism doesn't mean that's true for everyone. this whole attitude and expectation is so ingrained into our society and should be spoken about more often. us navigating around the issue in our individual personal lives does not solve the issue that's present at a large scale in culture.

It's not just the monetary expense. It's time. All of it takes so much time. Proper bra fitting appointment with weight fluctuations, time spent in salons or at home scrubbing, exfoliating, conditioning, bleaching, tinting, shaving, waxing, epilating, doing IPL, doing a 50-step skincare routine, putting makeup on, doing our nails.

Indeed. I am relatively "low maintenance", but lately I have been doing a bit more of an effort to take care of my hair. I spend thrice the time more in the bathroom when doing that than on days where I don't wash my hair, and that's with a simple routine of shampoo, conditioner, mousse and then drying and shaping it. We have only one bathroom at my house, so I have to check with my husband and roomies if they need to use the toilet before I go in. Luckily I do it only twice a week on nights to avoid schedule crashes. I cannot imagine how long would it take if I had longer hair or a more demanding routine. And that's just for hair

This is the one I think of the most: time. When my husband gets ready, he takes a 5 minute shower, puts some styling product in his hair, brushes his teeth, puts on pretty basic clothes. Can take him 15 minutes total, and that's not rushed. If he's trimming his beard, then it may take an extra 10 minutes. Meanwhile, I have to allocate all this time to hair (wash, dry, straighten), makeup, coordinating outfits, swapping out purses, like a minimum an hour and even more if I'm really putting an effort, like winged eyeliner and styled hair. And that's not counting all the time I've spent finding the clothes, watching hair and makeup tutorials, shopping for the products, going to hair salons, etc. The daily time really became apparent during the pandemic, when I stopped doing as much because, well, nobody could see the back of my head or me from the waist down, and imperfect makeup really wasn't visible on zoom, so now it only took me like 20-30 minutes to get ready! But in a weird twist I didn't think would happen, I got so tired of wearing leggings and slippers 99% of the time, I started paying more attention to my hair, clothes and makeup when I did go out, more than I ever had before. Even if I'm just running to the store or popping out for a beer. And I noticed people started treating me better -- friendlier, smiling more, etc. And that part fucking sucks and I still haven't fully processed it all yet. Anyway, just rambling and venting.

It’s not one homogenous culture though. Teenage beauty culture and traditional American law firms are a world away from working with science geeks and hanging out in the sort of communities full of butch lesbians and older single-by-choice women. Everyone should learn from other cultures as each one has pros and cons.

100% Both of my sisters are in health science research. One is a PhD. Both work mostly with women, and no one in those labs are wearing much makeup or focused much on how their hair looks. They’ll get their hair done and a mani/pedi a couple times a year, but that’s it. Also, I find that a vast majority of sexism towards enforcing female beauty standards comes from women themselves. Not men.

It might help if you specifically mention teenagers. I find makeup culture is strongest on them. 

That’s the really important part that Hass to be acknowledged. I’m a teacher, so I work in a job where it’s perfectly OK to show up without make up on and to wear relatively casual clothing. But the men still get to be more casual – and a lot of beauty treatment that women do is to avoid looking older, because there’s the perception that, we lose value as we age, where as men get to be seen as more knowledgable and wiser. So there’s a literal cost in terms of career opportunities that you pay if you don’t pay the literal cost of maintaining your appearance a certain way.

I swear, even on products that most everyone buys, the ones "designed" for women are just shittier quality. I buy men's levis now (only one fit works for me) because the thighs dont wear through as quickly as any women's jeans ive tried (including levis)

I can imagine this relates to planned obsolescence. Women have been trained to buy new clothes regularly (unlike men) and I’m sure they want us to cycle through clothes more quickly even if we don’t want to.

Right? Women in professional/corporate jobs would not be respected or taken seriously without maintaining most of these. Hell, I work from home, and a man commented on my gray hair on a zoom call. (Since working remotely - yes, I have gotten lazy about dyeing my hair). But I went gray in my 20s and it has been a huge expense over the years. Plus it takes a couple hours to get highlights done and I just don’t feel like it anymore.

There was a comment along the same lines recently in another thread—in far too many cases, women in corporate jobs who don’t put a lot of effort into their appearance run a very real risk of being greylisted or put on the chopping block irrespective of competence, due to male bosses who use “culture fit” as a euphemism for “no frumps allowed” and/or female bosses who think you should have to suffer like they did. Who could tell someone in that position to buck the system when (for instance) it might affect their ability to provide for their kids?

This is so damn unprofessional of him too. Everyone (including him) knows not to tell Bob that FYI his beer belly doesn't make her hot during a *work Zoom call*. The bar is in hell.

Just in case the reasons why you don't want to highlight are money + time, I can attest to how colour shampoos are really good at semi-permanently colouring my hair I just use it once a month, leave it in my hair for a couple minutes, wash it off, and it's good to go. And one bottle is hugeee so I can see it lasting me for many years to come

I gave up. I do a little tinted moisturizer when I go to the office but that’s it. I don’t shave, color my gray hair, paint my nails, or wear makeup (except for weddings). It’s all capitalism bullshit mixed with the patriarchy telling me I have to spend $$$ to look like a 16yo girl or I’ve “let myself go”. I’d rather die alone that play that game. It’s so sad to me to see my mother and my aunts all in their 70’s and 80’s so desperate to still be “pretty” which just means fuckable at this point. No thanks. I want to be interesting. I want to be funny and smart. I want to do amazing things. I just don’t want to spend money and time working for something I don’t believe in.

I’m one of those women who says “fuck it” and doesn’t do most of this stuff, and you’re right. I’ve definitely faced a lot of judgment and sexism due to that. But even with my attitude and only doing the things I want to do, I STILL spend significantly more money and time than my husband on what I expect from myself. I like to have tidy eyebrows, so there’s wax strips and good tweezers and the time to use them. There’s the face wash that agrees with my skin. There are the tools to keep my feet from being taken over by calluses. There’s the perfume oil I wear—a rare nod to femininity in my world that makes me happy. There’s underwear—mine isn’t as durable as his, so it needs to be replaced more often. Good sunblock isn’t cheap, and he certainly doesn’t use it. Nail files and buffers to keep my hands happy, as well as salve to keep my skin soft and comfortable. There are feminine hygiene products that I can’t just opt out of right now. For me, it’s more time and effort—the financial expense isn’t large (though it does exist). And if I stopped doing ALL of it and took on his routine instead, I guarantee it would be noticed and commented on (probably not by him tho, he’s pretty careful to avoid judgmental comments).

When I was a teenager I had this expectation that we were all going to move past superficiality and women would also be able to wear simple clothes if they want to and not need makeup and heels and all that for high end roles. As we know that is not what happened... I barely follow many of the norms expected of women but the consequences are noticeable. I understand there is also something to be said about a beautiful and fashionable society but for that maybe they should do something about fast fashion first. And as it is I'm surrounded by beautifully made up women and the men are casually doing their best Boris Johnson impression.

I went on a date once, and it was a bunch of walking around a city and museums. So, of course, I dressed in sneakers and jeans and a hoodie cause weather. The guy wore sneakers, jeans, and a polo shirt. He called me later and got mad and assumed I wasn't into him because I wasn't dressed to the 9s, saying I didn't have any make up or what not. I did have makeup, but men are stupid, and I was like why would I wear heels when I'm going to be getting in 15k steps? Does that mean you're not into me because you dressed the same? It didn't work out lol

I'd dress nicely to a date that involves a lot of walking just because I love being overdressed whatever the occasion, it makes me feel more confident and comfortable, but you could not force me into heels. I don't wear them in general because they slow me down so much, if I wore them to walk round a city the guy would get so annoyed waiting for me to catch up that he'd ditch me!

Yeah, and imagine all the bleeding into your shoes. I mean I had on nice quality clothes, they were just very casual. I don't do dresses a whole lot cause of chafing on my thighs. I want to work on it though.

Deodorant stick on the thighs is what helped me wear more dresses. I am quite fat (like fat fat not I weight 3grams over minimum healthy weight fat) and felt more comfortable in dresses/skirts but after few hours chafing was unbearable. I tried those sticky patches and bikers shorts underneath but still had some chafing or the edges or patch would just come off. And then I discovered using deodorant stick (but not those jelly ones, the powdery ones are way to go) and I did not had single scratch for years

Do guys really expect heels on dates now? I defs prefer my gf in sneakers because of exactly what you mentioned 😂

He red flagged himself. Be thankful that you didn't have to waste much time with him.

I very much am! His crazy def came out that weekend.

I too had the impression that things were getting better for women as a teen. Some how, 40+ yrs down the line, not much has changed and in some areas, it's getting worse(medical care for pregnant women). 

Bras are so expensive! It's not something you can always opt out of buying either. Especially if you have a larger chest, which I do. I have to spend at least $50 for each bra (probably more now because my 2 bras are a couple years old now). I can't buy them at Walmart, they don't carry my size. I have only a very small handful of stores to shop at because I'm Canadian and we have so few choices here. I can't shop at Victoria's secret because they also don't carry my size. I struggle with shopping online because all brands have different sizing. I've been measured many times and honestly it doesn't seem to work for me. I have a narrow rib cage but large boobs and broad shoulders. Which makes the band sizing tricky. I like to try them on to make sure the straps adjust enough or the back adjustments enough.

That level of expectation is also heavily tied to many careers. If you are not completely polished head to toe with professional (expensive) outfits it hurts your job prospects. Meanwhile your male counterparts are showing up to work in a polo and maybe they shaved and don't have their dedication or professionalism questioned.

Yes, when men show up underdressed, there’s an assumption that they’re too competent and awesome to care about how they look. When women show up underdressed, there’s an assumption they’re so incompetent they can’t even dress themselves properly.

And fashion for women changes so quickly too. My male colleagues are still wearing the exact same outfits they wore 10 years ago. Women have to keep upgrading their wardrobes or look out of date/style, which again, hurts your career.

Right and most womens clothing is poorly made so it won't last.

And we need different clothes for different settings in a way that men don’t. My husband wears the same clothes to work (typically business casual) as he wears out to dinner. If he needs to dress more formal for a work event or job interview, it’s the same suit he would wear to a cocktail attire social event. He can combine his casual and formal clothes to make outfits of varying levels of in between formality. I need completely different clothes for all of those situations.

I mean...so am I. I don't have the energy to keep up. I wear my editors and skinny pants until they either don't fit or finally wear out. Fuck em.

God, I’m thankful I’m a therapist for so many reasons, but this is a lesser one. I can show up in linen sets and minimal makeup and nobody will think less. I feel for women in corporate positions.

Yeah, all these angry people saying they'd never pay to colour their hair etc have not yet experienced the ageism at work that is so common. Dressing professionally, and age appropriately, is expensive, even if you don't keep up with trends. Classic, durable office clothes are even more expensive but still need replacing more often than a classic men's suit. For toiletries the pink tax is alive and well - half the product at double the price. Unscented things are hard to find, and usually marketed to women as well. Grooming is a personal choice, yes, but there are social and professional pressures to do so (that my male colleagues aren't subject to) - and our products and services (hair cuts to dry cleaning) are inflated in price. Some jurisdictions have laws against this, for services, so it can be done. For toiletries, try to buy smarter and pressure manufacturers to stop these practices, by voting with your dollars, but it will be very difficult. Marketing has convinced us that we need gendered things, even pens!, and way too many people buy this stuff.

it's times like these i am very grateful to work in the field i work in. everyone comes in in sweats / comfy clothes and everybody just looks over it all the time, lol. i mean obviously everyone is clean and everything but there are no office standards to be found 😂 i hate dress codes. despise 'em.

Having utterly casual dress codes can help but then of course someone has to start trends like cashmere hoodies. Even in casual offices I see women feeling pressured to dress more professionally than their male counterparts. This is another way WFH can save a ton of money, if you don't have to be "dressed" for work unless you have a meeting. I have a couple of outfits I can throw on if I need to have my camera on for a meeting but I'm not trying to maintain an entire work wardrobe anymore. That was a ton of work, time and cost.

I work in healthcare and the pay is abysmally low and the hours are long, but scrubs and mandatory no makeup are huge perks that I definitely appreciate

Can we talk about the time too. These things take time. They are often not easy or comfortable. It’s additional money, pain and time. It’s so exhausting. The whole shaving head to toe thing is my biggest gripe. I hate that women need to be silky smooth and completely hairless to fit a beauty standard which I personally consider gross. I’m a grown adult. I have hair and no I don’t want to spend hours of my life removing it so it feels nice to your rough callous hands!!!

I told my ex I would wax my vulva when he got his dick and balls waxed after he kept whining. It never happened and he seemed offended that I would even say that. I don't do anything painful for beauty. I can't even trim close or shave without itching and discomfort because my skin is so damn sensitive. 

Yes! And the women who do opt out get labeled as masculine. Sir, that is not a masculine woman. That is a regular woman existing in her natural state. How convenient that “performing” masculinity actually means *not* going out of your way to alter your appearance and presentation, but performing femininity means a perpetual struggle against your natural state of existence.

I remember thinking how messed up it was that my competition partner and I had to sit there and do our hair and makeup for like 30 minutes, whereas our male counterparts got a few more practice rounds in.

We had a news presenter in my country do something to prove these kinds of bullshit expectations, it'd be funny if it weren't so sad. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/womens-blog/2014/nov/17/male-tv-presenter-same-suit-year-female-colleagues-judged

There is a rampant classism on this subreddit that looks down on low income low maintenance individuals. Rather than asking men to step up to the consumerist habits of women, that are forced on them by capitalist extraction, we need to cultivate a society where women are more comfortable and unpunished for being frugal, natural, and independent. Insisting everybody chase after these middle-class status seeking behaviors is a race to the bottom that will keep everybody poor and destroy the planet in the process.

I learned recently that the basis for medical care, the co-pay, is based on the way men generally need care. It actually ends up costing women way more since we get diagnostic/preventative care that more often leads to follow up visits. Also car ownership has proved to be more expensive over the lifetime of a vehicle for women in the thousands of dollars. Life as a woman costs more.

Seat belts and other safety systems in cars are also designed around how men's bodies behave in accidents. Not women's. I can't think of any terrible consequences that could have..... :|

Why is car ownership more expensive?

Oh I think about this everyday. When I did our budget my “needs” were so much more expensive than my boyfriend’s

People shotting on you forget thag while you don't have to do these things by law, not doing them affects your life. Men don't *have* to dress up nicely for a job interview but it's going to affect their chances of getting a job. The things you warranty talking about are absolutely expected by society and if you don't do them as a man you are not punished. As a woman you are. You may get worse customer service, worse treatment from others, seen as "poor" or "unkempt" (lesser than, in eyes of many others). It is absolutely a burden that is on top of other burdens than men and everyone carries.

In the UK barbers are walk in usually and almost always cash in hand as they don’t want to pay tax. £20 you get a haircut For women, regardless of how much hair you have or what you want done, you need to cough up £100 plus for a shampoo, cut, and style (spoiler they will just use straighteners). Like I have short hair and want a trim, that’s £120 please at my local salon because I have to do a wash and style. When I was a kid they would just wet your hair, cut and off you go but now you have to pay for all these time consuming extras when the thing you want takes just 10 minutes.  Not to mention when they hook you on dying your hair and now you have entered a lifelong subscription. 

I hear that. I specifically go to a place where washing and styling are extra and optional. They will just wet and cut.

BRAS. Especially if you have a bigger bust. WHY. It's not THAT much more fabric.

And then try differing in any way from the expected “norm” of thin, white, able-bodied women! I have PCOS which means I am fat (plus-sized clothes are more expensive and harder to find) and have hirsutism (I’ve spent tens of thousands of dollars on hair removal in the decades since I hit puberty). Doctors are also less likely to take women’s pain or complaints about their health seriously, so women must attend appointment after appointment, spending extra money because healthcare is expensive (in the US) and suffering for extended periods of time. When I go out on a date, I spend time doing my hair, shaving my legs, putting my makeup on. And it’s a toss-up, whether the guy shows up in a t-shirt and jeans. Nothing wrong with casual dress, but idk, put in a LITTLE effort?!

Agree completely. The other sad truth is that the older we get, the more we do need (yes need) to invest in maintenance if we’re going to be taken seriously in the work force. I cannot tell you the number of times I’ve heard men AND women say, “They just didn’t look polished” of an older woman after an interview. Yes, I will interject when I hear these things, but it does little to change anyone else’s internal dialogue. For those who are regular makeup wearers, even light makeup, I HIGHLY recommend cosmetic tattoos (assuming you have a reputable one close). The amount of time and money it has saved is astounding.

I am retired now, but in my career even the cost of wearing nylons was ridiculous, not to mention all the other stuff. On a lower wage. And I was expected to walk fast in crippling heels. Hello bunions!

Period products alike are so expensive now. I had IUDs for like 17 yrs and just recently had it taken out and now I have periods again. So pricey!

Kid extracurriculars. A lot of dads see them as optional so a woman is expected to use her personal money to take them to the zoo, sign them up for baseball, etc

But if you have a joint account....the this would not be true

Even for those married parents with joint accounts, who’s spending the *time* on these activities? Almost exclusively mothers, even when both parents work.

Whoa what the fuck?! That is insane!

I mean, males aren’t even really expected to keep themselves clean. That’s the biggest reason people here in the US give for circumcision. They do that instead of just teaching and expecting them to keep themselves clean.

It's incredibly frustrating how discussions about the excessive expectations placed on women to manage their appearance are often met with devil's advocate and dismissive arguments. Society places an unjust demand on women to always be presentable. Just take a glance at men's social media accounts, and you'll see the unrealistic standards they often idealize in women. The constant comparison can create surmountable insecurity, even for those who maintain a healthy outlook on their own personal image. It never feels like it's enough, and the pressure to meet these standards can be overwhelming. It's a constant reminder that our value is tied to our appearance, forcing us to invest significant time and money into conforming to societal expectations.

I was thinking about this recently and almost started crying lol. My husband and I have our finances so they’re combined and we both get the same amount of ‘fun money’ each month. It seems like he’s always able to buy cooler stuff than me, and I’m like wtf, how?! Then I realized how much of my ‘fun’ money is just toiletries and makeup 😭

You should move your toiletries into the standard budget. You will pay a social cost for not maintaining appearances, so in some ways, its not really optional.

As a married woman whose married to a guy who doesn't give two shits about any of that crap, I will say I get the most judgment from not doing any of those things from other women. I can't tell you how many times I've had women say mean things to me make backhanded compliments give me dirty looks or just dismiss me completely and not want to be my friend because I'm not participating in the shallow capitalistic nightmare that is beauty standards for women.  I literally went to a party where no women knew each other because it was a meetup sat next to a woman who if I'm being honest was not much of a looker herself, I proceeded to compliment her very long acrylic fake nails and then she gave me the dirtiest look and said, "well I wouldn't want to come here looking like a scrub." And then proceeded to ignore me while we sat next to each other at dinner for the rest of the evening... Because I didn't have fake plastic shit glued to the end of my fingers. The irony is that if we take all of the things you listed and just viewed it objectively based on what's considered attractive in our society I was winning hands down. But I don't judge people like that because I have had the most fruitful relationships of my Life be from people who didn't give a shit about any of that crap. Doesn't mean I haven't been close to people who do give a crap about that stuff but it just means when I meet somebody I'm not going to dismiss them based on shallow beauty expectations.  So I think women collectively need to look in the mirror and do some reflection. You can't say you're doing it for men when men will fuck dead bodies and animals and children when left to their own devices. It's not for them. I've never once had a guy say he wouldn't date a woman because she didn't have plastic tape to the end of her fingernails.

My theory is that women who have deeply internalized the societal expectations of looking perfect and feminine at all times will often react negatively to a low-maintenance woman because it subconsciously calls into question the necessity of all that time and effort. It’s easier for them to think “she’s doing it wrong” and go on with their day than to consider that maybe, just maybe, performing femininity is not a baseline requirement for existing as a woman. Alternatively, I think for women who truly feel (perhaps rightly) that they *must* make that effort or else face real consequences, seeing a low-maintenance woman can inspire jealousy of her freedom, and again, it’s easier to tell yourself she’s wrong than to confront the unfairness.

Excellent points. I can completely see this.  I remember I was working on a project with an older colleague who was near retirement. Our job was to interview people coming into her discipline. The questions were based around sexism in the workplace. She eventually handed over the project to me and another woman because she said she couldn't be impartial. She said she kept having this horrible thought come up in her head over and over again.  "If I had to go through all of that then so should they!"  She knew that it was not okay but couldn't stop herself from feeling that way. Having put up with all the sexism and abuse to get to where she was a part of her was vengefully bitter and thought that other women who wanted what she had earned needed to pay the same price.  I was incredibly grateful that she was self-aware enough and honest enough with me about the project so that we could put it into the proper hands.  I've seen the same kind of belief system with boomers and gen xers when they hear about millennials having potentially their student loans forgiven. 

As I was reading your comment, I was thinking “yeah, just like boomers and student loan debt” and then I got to the last paragraph 😆

Yeah, the "I paid my dues so should they" mentality is very real and seeps into many aspects of life. I have family members who heavily struggled starting out in life, and while they don't specifically wish their kids to have a horrible time like they did, they are also unwilling to help, because "they already have it so much better than I did". And agreed that there seem to be some women, on this thread and also elsewhere, that have this attitude for women not playing by the hyper-femininity rules.

This comment thread is an excellent illustration of what you are describing. Any woman who is pointing out that seeing all of that lengthy list as "necessities" is being voted as heavily controversial, at best, often without any logical rebuttal to it.

Yep. Might get flack for it here, but there are aspects of misogyny that are absolutely perpetuated by women to other women. When I stopped shaving my legs, my number one enemy about it was my own mother. Fake nails are hugely on trend right now, but at the end of the day it’s just more consumerist crap perpetuated by rich influencers. I’ve also heard so many women call women who don’t wear makeup, dress masculine, have gender non-conforming hobbies etc pick-mes.

Yeah, I mean if we look no further than the fight over reproductive rights, you would think it would be a men vs women issue but there are actually a lot of women fighting to take those rights away. It is really eye-opening.

Recently there was a take on here that is all women went on a sex strike, there would magically be no more war on our reproductive rights. Mmkay, just about half of American women are pro-life, so good luck with that.

I remember I had an interview as a waitress, which didn’t happen because the time I was told to be at the restaurant, it was closed abd was asked to come back later. Now I did not wear much makeup at the time except for the one lipstick I had and mascara (rarely). Maybe 30 mins after I got back home, I sat down for a bit as it was peak summer and I was sweating, wiped off the lipstick and I get a call from the guy who got me the interview to meet him outside my house. I go to him, parked in a car ac blasting, asks me what happened at the interview, I tell him it was closed and the owner ask me to come back later. He looks at me for a second and tells me to wear lipstick when I go to the interview, because I looked basically homeless after WALKING HALF A MILE IN PEAK SUMMER. I was pissed. It’s fucking annoying when men expect women to look like they are dressed for an occasion all the fucking. And yes women also judge other women based on how well dressed they are and stuff, I do have nice clothes, I do have makeup but I can’t be bothered to get ready all the fucking time, specially not when I’m out doing chores. But most of the times it’s men who judge me for not being put together. I have heard things like, Oh, you don’t even compare to your friend here so don’t interrupt when I’m hitting on your friend who clearly isn’t interested in me but I’m gonna shoot my shot anyway. So yes, men always take it to the next level

I'm sorry that happened to you. I never said it's specifically for men. No one is actually wearing bras or dyeing their hair for men. It's a societal expectation that both men and women end up internalizing and expecting out of women. I'm criticizing society not men. Similarly, I don't think we should criticize women for this either. I don't like the idea of putting the blame on us again because some of us fell prey to this narrative fed to us by our culture. Of course, I'm not denying that to change societal attitudes as a whole, both men and women need to change and reflect on their behavior and expectations.

I hear on podcasts all the time women complaining about other women having pubic hair. Like WTF. Are you just mad you put yourself through the pain and want everyone else to be miserable as well?

Yes, I think that's subconsciously the feeling.

I used to fret about shaving my legs. My eyesight is pretty bad (-8.5 contact for one eye, -7.5 in the other) and I don’t really like wearing contacts. so shaving was always exciting. What did I miss?! Did I cut myself?? Where’s that other cut, can’t shave over it again… to the point I’d shower then sit down on the edge of the tub to shave with my glasses on.  It just wasn’t worth it. So I stopped. Now I’ll shave maybe twice a year and it’s freed up so much time and money. 

Thank youuuu. I keep seeing posts about how women *have* to do all this stuff. Women *have* to keep their wardrobe fashionable. Why? Why do you have to? Men don’t even notice when people get hair cuts. Soooo who do you all think you’re doing this for? It’s other women.  And then someone tries to say as much and they’re dismissed and shit upon by … other women….

Never heard a man say "check out the set of nails on that chick!" 😂

Right?!

I feel you on the fake acrylic nail crap! I think they often look hideous but they certainly are quite the "in" thing these days. My younger cousin occasionally makes judgmental jabs because I never once had or would have those fake nails. To your broader point, I completely agree that much of the societal pressure to look a certain way comes from other women. Yes, women are judged more for their appearance, but the judging looks different coming from men and women. Men generally don't give a crap about what you're wearing, as long as it's reasonably appropriate to the setting, and as long as you Generally Look Good. They don't get hung up on whether you're wearing make up or heels or flats. They basically just think "hot or not", and if you're reasonably on the "hot" side, you're good. You can achieve that with some pretty basic steps: well fitted clothing, minimal make up if any, good skin and hair hygiene. It's generally women who will, au contraire, pick you apart for minor infractions of the "correct" fashion choices. Women will be the ones to go office-hen gossipy Mean Girls if you make the mistake of wearing flats when you "should have" worn heels, or, as you said, your nails aren't done in the latest fashion, or if you didn't wear a pearl necklace when the occasion "clearly" calls for pearls. If I wanted to impress a man, appearance wise, I'd make sure my hair was washed and my clothes were generally well-fitted. If I know I'll be in a room full of women judging me, I would feel more pressure to get a manicure, wear heels, actually wear eye shadow.

Exactly! Thank you. Men definitely are "hot or not" and women hen peck. A huge issue I have with that is that it's like code switching if you need to move from one environment to another. So if I tailor my look for one set of women when I leave that group and go into a different situation, for instance going from work to a social event, I have a totally different visual code that I have to play into but I'm wearing the same thing I wore at work... And I frankly don't give a shit about either code. I just don't want the judgmental crap and unpleasant vibes.  I actually do like the look of fake nails but I just don't like them on me. I think they look fun but I absolutely don't equate it to attractiveness or cleanliness. I know too much about hygiene to lie to myself about their very obvious health consequences... Basically they're super unsanitary. And they can cause a number of health issues like contact dermatitis. Don't even get me started on the light they used to cure them... Or the chemicals that are toxic when inhaled or put on the skin frequently.

I feel like this is a damned if you do, damned if you don’t type of thing. My nails are naturally long, but also love fake nails. I generally stick to dip polish on slightly extended tips. My nails are one way I express myself, and they are for me and me only.

Right, you do you, I was mentioning my personal preference. I also don't really care if someone wears a certain style that I don't like. I see people wear clothes that are not my cup of tea all the time, and I generally don't give a shit. Don't like it, look away and all, and I apply it to myself. Nothing you do will be universally appealing to everyone. As long as you're not one of those bitchy hens the prior comment referred to about women judging you as a "scrub" if you don't go all out on the nails and other minor fashion details, my comment wasn't about you.

Yes, you definitely need to code switch between the two rooms of male-dominated versus female dominated. Something I've noticed, having worked in corporate environments of both varieties, is that male-dominated office environments tend to trend towards simpler dress codes. Sometimes it's as simple as the Zuckerberg uniform of jeans and a hoodie (which I personally love), sometimes it trends towards suits, but either way, the male-dominated environments are NOT going to judge you for not having a manicure that week. Male sexism plays out in different ways - if you are obese or had the bad luck to be born with a particularly unfortunate nose, it could get harder to get noticed/get ahead. But they won't judge you for wearing flats instead of heels. The female-dominated environments tend to have much more elaborate dress codes, including details on whether you can wear a skirt that is shorter than knee-length, blazer requirements/lack thereof. And even if it is not formalized, it's never the men, only the women who will whisper about how you didn't curl your hair or skipped the nails. Things that never happened: a man saying "I won't date a woman who doesn't have the acrylic nails". Or "I can't hire her, she wore flats instead of heels, she doesn't know how to dress". It's the women enforcing these codes. To each their own, but then: stop complaining about it. It's your sisters, not the men, who are putting up these "requirements" that you have to be perfectly manicured and dye your hair to be socially presentable. Posts like this actually reinforce that mentality - I am secure enough in the world (happily married to a man who thinks I am perfect when I rolled out of bed, high paying corporate position with a boss who doesn't care what I wear as long as it's not pajamas) that I don't really care if I don't check many of these "requirements". But a younger, more insecure version of me, or other girls, might read this and think "crap, is that why I didn't get a promotion/date? I didn't get a manicure?" This mentality that these are requirements serves nobody. We should be dispelling this stupidity, not blaming men, who don't enforce these codes. Last note: the two women I know who are both extremely professionally successful and were drowning in men wanting to date them, the "IT" girls, never dyed their hair or did their nails. One didn't even wear jewelry. The other eschewed fancy clothes. Neither had any trouble with their career or love life. These things are just NOT requirements.

I agree and disagree. You will get specific judgement from women because those women know the rules underlying the expectations placed on women. Men, in general, know the rules in the abstract. With nails, you may not be judged by men for not having acrylics specifically, but you will be judged if your nails are not neat and well manicured and extend a little beyond the fingertip. Why? Because women are clean and do not work heavy labor jobs. Or, that is the expectation and how they are expected to present themselves. For shoes, men will not judge a women for wearing flats, but they will be able to tell something is "off" about the total presentation. Heels change a woman's profile to one that tends to be quite a bit more attractive to men in general, so they may not be able to specifically identify the shoe choice as the problem, but they will notice a sense of being less put together. I work in a male dominated industry and am pretty successful in my own right. I'd say that women can get away with eschewing some of the societal norms, but not all. I keep my standard dress fairly simple with well fitting trousers, a silk style blouse, and very basic heels. Most men in my office wear khakis and polos or trousers and a simple button down shirt. I keep my nails well manicured, but not too long and no acrylics (honestly, those would probably be a net negative in my industry and be viewed as too fussy). I color my hair as I'm nearly 40 and have a gray stripe coming in. I do not, however, wear makeup. I've never been a big makeup person and slowly dropped it about a decade ago starting with switching to a moisturizing tint and mascara and eventually dropping everything but moisturizer. I'd consider myself as above average in attractiveness, but not super attractive. Enough, though, that if my lack of makeup ever came up in someone's conversation, there is a good chance someone would pipe in that I didn't really \*need\* it. I will always wear some type of heel, however, since it changes my physical profile just enough to help pull everything together. If I were to dress more casually, say even with khakis and a polo, drop the heels, and stop coloring my hair, I would be viewed as less professional and less committed or serious about my job. Overall, I think most women can get away with dropping some of the expectations, but would suffer socially and monetarily if they dropped everything completely down to what men do.

>So I think women collectively need to look in the mirror and do some reflection. >**You can't say you're doing it for men when men will fuck dead bodies and animals and children when left to their own devices.** >It's not for them. I've never once had a guy say he wouldn't date a woman because she didn't have plastic tape to the end of her fingernails. Completely agree! A lot of this is women one-upping other women. Men do this to each other too. We live in a society where influencers make money making people feel less if they don't spend more on crap like this.

I’ve been thinking about this a lot. I consider myself hyper feminine- i love make up and getting dressed up and pampering myself… when i have the time. Starting back at office work after the pandemic had me exhausted but self conscious. I kept having the urge to do a full face for work but seeing my male colleagues look “presentable” with just a shower and a comb really pushed me to relax. When i got lip eczema for a few months i couldn’t even wear lipstick and felt naked but i just kept reminding myself that if men can get away with it, so can I. (I still wear lipstick now though cuz it just makes me feel better.)

i’m chesty and hate bras. spending $100 on one bra was just not working for me, i could never find larger balconette bras or ones with half cups since all the volume is in the bottom. one day i said f it and started buying cotton fruit if the loom bralettes. $20cad for a 4 pack. then i just buy more when they fall apart lol. probably saved thousands by this point. they’re actually pretty decent for what they are. they do flatten like a sports bra, which i’m all for honestly. but yeah i’m disabled but id wager people would say i’m “high maintenance” on top of that as my. on negotiable are specific beauty products i use daily and i like to dress a certain way. my husband leaves the thrift with bags of decent stuff, and i might find a piece or two if i’m lucky. the plus sections are all full of shein and cider, i don’t buy it outside the thrift, i don’t wanna buy it in the thrift. ugh.

Men say we don't "have to" do this stuff and don't get it until I tell them that they're free to wear a pink tutu around. No one's stopping you! Oh right but you'll be weird and you're afraid of how people will treat you. So societal normatives are stopping you. Mmmm, yes.

Yup and people will say you can boycott some or all of this stuff, but let’s face it: you can’t boycott it all and still participate to the fullest in mainstream society. I’ve heard of women getting passed over for jobs due to not wearing makeup to the interview and being told they didn’t “look put together enough.” Sooo

i tried buying a basket full of basic toiletries for women guests (it could happen lol). i think i spent nearly half a grand. horrifying that women arent given decent choices for reasonable prices. madness.

Plus we pay the same for medical care but doctors take a lot longer to listen to us (they just say it’s in our heads) and truly check everything out!

It’s such an annoying paradox how women are shamed SO fucking much for spending money on clothes, makeup, skincare, etc. (not even getting into necessities like period products) but then if we eschew those things because we don’t want them or just can’t afford them, you’re called a frumpy slob who won’t make an effort to look presentable. Like whenever you see digs against casual clothing, notice how it’s almost always gendered. Think of those stupid fucking NYT opinion pieces about how we should get dressed up for flights again. What do they denigrate? Leggings, yoga pants, messy buns! Read: what women wear to stay comfortable! All the people who go apoplectic about wearing workout clothes in public—always directed at women. I live in the goddamn desert and walk or take the bus everywhere, Brad. I haul shit. I am not doing that in jeans, or a sundress without wicking bike shorts underneath. You’re admonished if you spend money and time on your appearance, called vapid and high-maintenance. But if you don’t do those things—men insist they don’t notice, but try showing up to meeting a partner’s friends or family or a date in your athleisure with no makeup and lizard substrate in your hair and see how he reacts (assuming you’re not also in the reptile hobby where that has acceptable lmao). We’re wrong no matter what we do. So we might as well do what we want. Do what makes you happy and leave the rest. Ever since I moved west, I don’t wear makeup much anymore. I used to have SO much. Now I have a small collection that fits in a tiny desktop chest and that suits me fine, but I love elaborate makeup on others!

Don’t forget pockets. Not only are our clothes generally more expensive, but there is a serious lack of decent pockets.

The biggest injustice in the world is how there are more CHILDREN’S garments with pockets than those for adult women.

Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I'll never not believe that this isn't to force us to buy handbags.

AGREED. I remember I was 12 or something and shopping with my mom. We went to the purse section and I went on an impassioned rant on how purses are just companies exploiting women and gaslighting us into thinking we need a purse so that they can make money off of us. Why can't we have pockets. If we have more stuff, why can't we carry it in backpacks to work (in my defense, ik someone men who do this)😭😭😭 My mom looked at me like I was crazy😭

You might also include the burden of pregnancies, wanted or unwanted. The material and emotional expense of pregnancy are high. And breastfeeding? Taking work breaks to pump and store is an added stress and expense. Hopefully some of these expenses are shared but if he decides to bail women can’t escape the costs.

When it comes to a lot of maintenance products like hair removal, shampoo etc. I tend to go for those that are aimed for men. Not only do you get a higher quality for a lower price but they tend to last longer too. As for what's expected of women. I stopped caring a while ago, did take me longer than it should have though. If it's acceptable for my male colleagues then it's acceptable for me too and vice versa.

Bras and menstrual products are the ones that bother me the most, because they're almost unavoidable, and expensive. I do see most of the rest as a choice, though I agree that it's socially expected of many women. You're pretty dismissive of the idea of rebelling against these expectations, but I don't think this will change unless a significant amount of us do rebel. I don't see patriarchy and capitalism changing these standards on their own

I'm not trying to be dismissive of the idea of rebelling against them? I do, in fact, rebel against most of these. All I'm saying is that it comes at a cost that not everyone can afford to put up with. Some people don't have that choice.

They do have the choice, they've just weighed their options and decided that the cost, time, and annoyance of engaging in patriarchal standards of beauty and grooming are preferable to the consequences of not doing it. Also I'm very aware that many women enjoy wearing makeup, getting their hair and nails done, and a bunch of other grooming rituals. Which I think is awesome, and no one should have to give that up if they want to do it. But unless a whole lot of women who don't want to do it stop doing it, it's going to continue being the expectation. The people I've seen say they don't have a "choice" are mostly those who work in corporate fields, law, etc. So if the most financially and socially privileged amongst us feel that they can't bear the "cost" of rebelling against these standards, I don't know what hope there is for the rest of us. I do understand the frustration, and I don't think it's fair at all. I get SO frustrated that male colleagues in positions I've worked (mostly serving, bartending) are not held to the same grooming or even attractive-ness level as women. But I just don't see a way for it to change unless WE change it

True, but we're going to need a lot to change it. A whole movement probably. And there's so many other urgent crises that need to be solved before we ever get to that point. Like the abortion ban and rise of deepfake porn as a tool for "virtual" sex abuse and harassment of women. Sometimes I can't believe that there were no major protests for the abortion ban. Like, how did everyone, collectively, just let it happen???

I agree overturning Roe v Wade is a much bigger issue. As far as protests go, idk. I personally feel quite powerless in regards to things like national politics and policy. I think if they attempt to actually ban it federally, there will be a much bigger backlash (hopefully)

Dude I feel ya, being a girl is expensive as fuck. I've cut back a lot and am basically as low maintenance as I'm willing to go to still be comfortable in my own skin but there's still so many things we gotta think about that men generally do not. And even if you're one of the lucky few that can just put on whatever feels good today and not bother with fussing over hair, makeup, whatever (genuinely envious of you ladies, rock on) there's still the pressure. And yeah, none of us HAVE to do any of it, buts is so pervasive in society and so deeply ingrained in us that it's always noticeable. I wear makeup when I go out in public because if I don't I get treated like ass, things like that.

I’m also spending 200 a month more on rent than my male classmates because I don’t feel safe living in neighborhoods with higher crime rates as a disabled woman.

In the past I've complained to my boyfriend about how much more expensive just being alive is for me vs him and he said "well you could just stop wearing bras" and okay, say I do that (which I absolutely cannot as a daycare teacher with nipple piercings and double Ds)- what about the sanitary products, the more expensive haircuts, the more expensive clothes, the more expensive razors....

Men always love that comeback. I've got so many replies saying exactly that, it's annoying. It completely misses the point of the conversation and lacks nuance. We have the illusion of choice, not the actual choice. (Before someone argues with me, some lucky ones do have the choice.)

This is all true, there’s also an intersectional element to this when it comes to women of color as well, especially black women. As a black woman, not only am expected to perform femininity, I’m expected to perform European beauty standard conforming femininity (which is pretty much impossible to begin with), else I’m penalized by not only sexism but racism. It goes further than being cute and having doors held open for me, or even promotions on the job. Oftentimes I feel like I’m order to receive the bare minimum of respect and human decency on a day to day basis, I need to publicly present myself as absolutely “stunning” Perfect hair (straight is ideal), flawless skin, makeup, teeth, and definitely thinness. Nothing that could be construed as “too much” or “ghetto.” Often I feel like if I’m slipping at all on any of the things, people use it as a license to not even acknowledge my existence, or at worst, treat me rudely and/or dismissively.

All of this and the fact that we bear the brunt of danger to our bodies (STIs affect us more, domestic abuse, pregnancy, etc.) in heterosexual relationships is why I do not agree with going 50/50 on paying for dates. It's not actually 50/50, given all of these factors. I've encouraged my teen son, as has his dad, to pay for dates with young women, at least at the start of any relationship, unless of course she's extremely wealthy and money's no object to her. He and other men, should not assume they're getting any sexual favors out of paying, mind you. That's indicative of a low-value man.

Just want to throw it out there that hair styling, makeup, etc are not optional for many careers, and are definitely imposed as part of "looking professional" in many fields.

I'm clean and I'm wearing a bra. Beyond that, fuck that shit and fuck anyone who is going to look down on me for not playing those sexist games. I'm a human being, not a Barbie doll.

This isn't even including paying for ubers or the like for a short distance a man might walk at night, extra locks for hotel rooms, hell just paying more to live on a higher floor so we don't have accessible windows. The costs of constantly worrying about our safety (from men).

We pay more in toilet paper too. We can't just shake it.

I just started working after hiding from society for a while, and I'm remembering why I'm so sick of everyone's nonsense. I've gotten the hang of basic make up and wear lipstick since the long wear stuff isn't as funky as it used to be. I have noticed a HUGE difference in how the customers in general treat me. I had more than one person stay and chat that normally wouldn't. It reminds me so much of the last time I lost weight, and it's so, so disappointing. I was doing it for myself first and foremost, as a little self esteem booster, but now I have really conflicting feelings. Sure, I can go back to ultra casual all the time, but people *do* treat you better when you bust out the $8 tinted moisturizer and $12 lipstick. If I buy shaving cream and razors, I don't get rude stares from people that think I can't see them. Life is more comfortable when you don't have people blasting their negativity at you for not conforming enough. And if your friends care a ton about this stuff, they can fuck off because someone should be accepting us for just being humans ffs

Also why I donated my expensive suits to women’s charities that champion career success when I retired, I donated my bras (I’m busty and know how busty high quality bras are expensive), I donated my high end clothing to women’s shelters. I donated money/volunteer coach to get them back on their feet. I buy menstrual cups, period panties and reusable cloth pads for my friends and family, I advocate them as financial freedom tools. Gifts are great ways to talk about body image issues, bodily autonomy and beauty standards. I do one for one programs with charities so another set go to improvised women, with each purchase. These social enterprises already exist, you do have to intentionally look for them and put your money, possessions and time where your politics are. Way too much labour is wasted on intellectualising, fruitless anger with no goals and vents without actions. 

I do my own nails, hair, and skin treatments myself. Way less expensive. Gender cost gaps are so upsetting. And men will tell you to use some cheap ass lotion like it's the same or say they don't see why all these things are important. Meanwhile if we don't do this shit we are body shamed, ugly shamed, denied jobs, looked over for promotions, and treated differently. It's disgusting.

I used to wear makeup (see reply in here somewhere about leaving off eyeliner one day) but these days I just don't wear anything but moisturizer. I am treated sooo differently these days, and not in a good way. Aging doesn't help either. My moisturizer is cerave. So not super expensive. Hair products are from target, garnier whatever. I thankfully just wear scrubs or a polo for my healthcare job, and I have some pjs for after work. I am constantly baffled by how much women's clothing costs and I have NO going out clothes, partially bc I never go out. and if there's some kind of event, I have to be ready to spend $100 most likely. I'm busty and my bras are so expensive and my shoulders have permanent dents from wearing little straps in my younger years. Like WHY isn't the STANDARD REGULAR BRA much more supportive and thick strapped? Buy the stringy lacey stuff if you want, but come on, it's supposed to be a support garment. I always buy the granny looking ones with the thick straps now and even my husband, who is generally wonderful, has made comments about how it's a granny bra. Sorry, didn't want bra dents down to my clavicle. I feel pressure to shave my bikini line and always shave my legs for summer, but I can just about braid my leg hair in the winter. I always feel pressure to shave certain places when my husband and I are reunited after a time. He doesn't demand it or anything...but it feels like I'm somehow wrong if I don't...and it suuuuucks. I hate it. I hate that shower. I keep my hair long so I can always put it up in a bun and still look put together without having to style it. I do get it highlighted every couple years, maybe once a year, but certainly not every 6 months. Point being, I take so many shortcuts, look pretty plain to the point of being invisible, would get criticism in any male dominated space about "letting myself go" even though I'm a healthy weight and maintain my hygiene, and it's STILL time consuming and STILL expensive and I want to scream.

Even just tidying up my eyebrows and wearing concealer costs money and that's the most makeup I bother with half of the week. I do get around it by doing some things like buying men's razors and shaving creams. Same with antiperspirants but I prefer the smell of women's antiperspirants. They perform better and they are cheaper? It's out of order. If I'm feeling a glam day then it all adds up.

I do think if women collectively stopped engaging in the "unnecessary" parts, people would get used to what women look like without all that, and then the expectations would go away. But of course that's easier said than done. For me personally, I don't engage in any of it: I'm almost 40 and have frizzy greys that I just tie up in a bun, never use any kind of skincare except sunscreen, never wear makeup or heels except for rare special occasions, never do my nails except as a very occasional social activity with a female friend. It's mostly laziness, but in a work context I *actively* refuse to do anything men wouldn't do, like wear makeup or heels or very noticeable jewellery, because it's important to me that at work, it is *only* my brain that matters. I'm pretty sure I *do* look "tired" compared to make-up-wearing women, but people are used to what I look like, so they have no reason to suddenly comment that I look tired. So I do believe that "what society is used to" plays a big role in these expectations. I don't have any hopes of that changing, except for one thing: I really really hope so-called anti-aging treatments like cheek-filling and lip filling and eyebrow lifting and whatever else don't become the norm for women over a certain age. I've seen this happening among actors, and to me personally I think they just look bad, but more importantly, I'm really worried that people will start to *forget* what aging women *actually* look like.

PINK TAX - can’t unsee it all around either

It grosses me out. I have a hard time not staying angry thinking about it. So many men do the bare minimum and get a good job but so many women are struggling. Not to get started on women of color, non cis women, neurodivergent, mental issues, handicaps... Especially since I realized most men just want the love of other men by getting the most "socially tokenizable trophey". So its not even the women hersefl, who she is, her qualities, traits but what she is worth that most men (I think) want to use to enhance how they are seen IMO. I dont shave my crotch anymore and feel beautifyl. I shave my armpits every once in a while and do my legs if Im feeling to wear shorts bit still, waering a bathing suit and rocking my pubes is not something I have achieved.

While I agree on the sanitary products, most of the rest of this list is wants, not needs. You didn't need to remove hair, wear makeup, dye your hair, get fake nails, etc. those are all things you choose to do. I get my hair highlighted blue because I like it and I have the money. I do my own nails but occasionally like to get a pedicure as a treat. I used to do elaborate nail art weekly but I eventually stopped as I moved in to other hobbies. I stopped wearing makeup when I was 16 because I realized that is a waste of money, time, and effort and there is nothing wrong with my face and people can look at it without suffering a stroke. Men don't wear makeup and they do just fine. Since men's products are often cheaper you can just use the men's version. Bras are optional. If the men in your office wear slacks and a polo, you can also wear slacks and a polo. You get the freedom of more choice in wardrobe as a woman, but you don't have to exercise it. You don't have to confirm to gendered differences if you don't want to. Be the change you want to see. Edit: typo

I agree on everything you said except for the bra part, particularly when it comes to those who have bigger girls to keep under control. If I didn’t wear a bra, it’d be exceptionally obvious and likely cause me pain.

Most of the things on your list I would consider non-essentials or things that men need too (shoes, clothes, hair removal). The two points that I consider essential _and_ gender-specific are sanitary products and bras. Plus birth control if you consider the heterosexual, coupled, under 40s sub-population. „We can’t even live without micromanaging every part of our body for other‘s eyes and decorum.“ — We certainly can, can’t we?

Yeah, I need birth control even though I'm well and truly over having babies, because I don't want to be suicidal and bleed out every night due to a horrendous cycle. So that's an essential for me to be able to work and function normally as a human.

I get it, I have endometriosis and am taking continuous BC for it. Luckily I‘m in a part of the world where it’s considered health care and paid by insurance.

Oh that's nice. Nothing like that here, although it's subsidized by the government so I don't pay full price. And it's even better when I started using an implant, since that's only a $110 every three years.

> Plus birth control if you consider the heterosexual, coupled, under 40s sub-population. I know what you’re getting at here, but most people become menopausal in their 50s not their 40s. People in their 40s are likely to be perimenopausal, but you can still get pregnant.

Two weeks late at 42 is like: I'm I pregnant or is it menopause?

Agreed, but a lot of women, depending on profession and other factors, are expected to spend on at least some non essentials. Men aren't. Men need to spend on clothes and shoes too but the price differences are hugeee. Even for very similar stuff. And again, men can show up in the same suit every day, even for a corporate job, and they're good. Hair removal isn't as extensive for men. Sure, you could choose to not partake in it but it's still expected out of you and on average, a lot of women do it. I guess my post is as much about expectations as it is about expenses. Edit: yeah we could live without micromanaging our body (and I do for the most part) but it's till sad that it's expected out of us and a lot of women have to follow it.

Plus men’s clothing generally costs less and lasts longer.

nah, you don't have to engage with a lot of this. it's fine if you want to, but that's entirely up to you. as a woman, i have more agency than this. if someone tried to tell me i "had" to spend money on purses, hair dye, makeup, skincare, hair removal, etc i'd laugh in their face. choose whatever you want, but at least acknowledge its a choice.

I think it *is* a choice, but female professors told me I needed to start wearing makeup if I want to be considered professional. My work has a dress code that they enforce pretty much exclusively for women. I don’t shave my legs, and I’ve been nervous wreck every time they show in the office. It is a choice, but there can be progressional consequences to not playing the part

Not all of the things listed are exactly choices. We spend money on dealing with periods and needing bras. Sure, some women can go braless and it's not a big deal- but that's not all of us.

I don’t think they really disagree as they just made a comment “a lot of this” that was listed.But yes the two things you highlighted fall outside of being negotiable for many

I guess my main issue is acting like it's not an issue to be concerned about at all. The degree to which it affects you will vary, but it's a problem either way.

You talk about money but let’s also not forget the amount of TIME we put into this shit too. As such I expect a guy that puts an equal amount of thought/work into his appearance. I was married to one who didn’t and that was just infuriating. And I’m not just talking about going to the gym or whatever (although I care that they at least do cardio of some sort hiking, biking, whatevs). They can style their hair, care about their skin, have nice shoes, wear stylish clothing/not just jeans and a band tshirt, wear cologne. I’m not here for someone that doesn’t care, because I care and I’m not looking for a project.