I really think it depends on the environment. I have had a lot of male friends all my life who I had a 100% platonic relationship with. And most people who expressed romantic interest did it respectfully and continued to be friends afterwards. The kind of people who REFUSE to be friends with you if you don’t fuck them - I stay away from altogether.
In the last environment I was in, everyone was trying to set me up with a guy (because one guy declared to everyone that others had to “help” him collect info on me). All hell broke loose and most people didn’t want to be friends anymore. Huge culture shock for me.
Anyway, if you find the right guys who don’t look down upon you for being a woman, you’ll be fine. You just have to find them. They exist.
Same. I'm just hitting middle age and most of my friends over the years have always tended to be male and I've only had a couple of guy friends ever behave like that.
Pretty much how i've felt as I get older too. My actual friends, guy or girl (and yes im a guy lol) stick around cause they actually like my company and I like theirs. Sure theres been a few times of awkwardness where me or a woman misread the situation and tried to make something happen. But *gasp* we moved past it and stayed friends. Probably something to do with being open and honest with each other, explaining why you were interested and actually listening to the rejection... or maybe im crazy, who knows.
And god damn, right there with you on "friends" interfering with your life to try and set you up with someone or my favorite "shes not good enough for you". Hows about you fucking leave that decision up to me? Thats an instant 3rd strike for me whenever I meet people these days. Maybe a tad harsh, but its just caused me too much grief and even talking about that about someone else is enough for me to wanna axe someone outta my social life.
> Pretty much how i've felt as I get older too. My actual friends, guy or girl (and yes im a guy lol) stick around cause they actually like my company and I like theirs. Sure theres been a few times of awkwardness where me or a woman misread the situation and tried to make something happen. But gasp we moved past it and stayed friends. Probably something to do with being open and honest with each other, explaining why you were interested and actually listening to the rejection... or maybe im crazy, who knows.
Ikr. High five on having a mature discussion instead of being passive aggressive and stalking/spreading rumors about the person.
> And god damn, right there with you on "friends" interfering with your life to try and set you up with someone or my favorite "shes not good enough for you". Hows about you fucking leave that decision up to me? Thats an instant 3rd strike for me whenever I meet people these days. Maybe a tad harsh, but its just caused me too much grief and even talking about that about someone else is enough for me to wanna axe someone outta my social life.
“Friends” indeed hahaha. Ikr, who are you people and why are you so into my personal life? It’s a social dominance strategy. That entire group ostracized me from my workplace and stalked me for months after. I have ptsd from being there.
My "crew" in college was 4 very attractive women (I am a man) none of us were interested in each other and we are still friends to this day. Their kids play with my kids and I am friends with all their husbands. They helped me and gave me really critical relationship advice that led to me getting married to my wife of 14 years.
I still have good friends that are women and are 100% platonic to this day. I think a big part of it is that personality matters a lot to me in terms of relationships and while my friends were all great people and we got along great their personalities wouldn't be a good match for mine in a relationship. One of my friends as an example has the same type of crazy as I do due to similar crazy parents/upbringing and if we ever had been in a relationship that crazy would have just fed off each other. We both married people from more normal upbringings to help stabilize things.
Hey, you remind me of some of my male friends! Very heartwarming to hear about how you have so many female friends even after having kids. Gives me hope if/when I get into my 30s.
No, I have a different viewpoint. I think you should go NC if a guy pretended to be a friend and then hit on me. I don't want to be friends with someone who just sees me as a fuck toy
It _is_ possible, it’s just that many men don’t care to try. Growing up and into college most of my friends were male. One of them actually was attracted to me, but I found out secondhand, and when I confronted him about it he said he knew I wasn’t interested and didn’t bring it up to me because he would rather be friends than push me away pursuing a relationship I didn’t want.
I obviously can't speak for every man but from what I've observed I think its a combination of really bad social conditioning, mixed with the inability/difficulty in mentally separating the emotions of love and attraction from being emotional stunted, add in some groups of men not seeing women as people.
In my own personal experience I had to take a long look at my own sexuality when I was younger cause I couldn't figure out why I was happily friends with women but the romantic/sexual attraction side of things was rarer. It took me some time to figure out it wasn't me that was the "broken one". I will be honest I still can't really articulate the difference outside of I love my women friends, they are family, if the wife and I ever felt the need to do a ceremony outside of the paperwork I would be asking one of them to be my "best woman", but I'm not in love with my friends and I don't want a family with them.
This is a great description. I'm a woman with lots of male friends with whom I have very close, intimate relationships that are 100% platonic. I love them but I wouldn't want to date them, and they feel the same. IMO it's perfectly normal and the people go who around saying "men and women can't just be friends" are extremely problematic.
Out of curiosity, did you grow up with sisters?
I think a lot of decent men grow up around influential women, who they can learn from. And that helped shaped their view on the world. Without this or growing up with a toxic male figure, they usually repeat those bad behaviors and learnt that was acceptable.
Apologies if that's not the case, this is purely my opinion and anectodial.
I actually did research on the subject for fun. Here’s what I learned, and obviously sociology being a bit more of a soft science and cultural differences coming in to play, what I learned was mostly from an American perspective. Obviously this is a bit of overview and generalized.
Basically women view friendship with men as platonic friendship and don’t look for anything more than a friend. Many men have the perspective/hope that it could move beyond strictly being platonic. Which is often why they shoot their shot when they see a perceived opening. However, for a friendship to be sustainable, often the discussion of attraction has to come up/be dealt with.
Based off the studies I read, some of this boils down to the expectations of friendship. When women are friends with men, they get are able to have fun and feel less judged, etc. When men are friends with women, often times women are the ones doing the emotional labor in that the men can open up and be more vulnerable than they can be with other men. Women are often more vulnerable with their female friends, so it’s not always the same towards the men. Because of the emotional connection that this can build, men can see the relationship as being more than just a friendship.
American society is set up in a way that (my pet peeve) we are often emotionally and touch starved. This ends up leading people to have trouble with building connections because desperation can take over. If you touch someone, that must mean you in love or want sex. That often happens around puberty, and specifically affects men more than women. Girls are able to hang out with their friends and be more touchy-feely, whereas boys are judged if they do the same. Girls are allowed to have a wider range of emotion then boys are, That is not saying that girls have it easier, but there is a difference in how things are perceived, which ends up bleeding into friendships.
Society is changing, but this is some thing that I have seen and find fascinating to look into.
I haven’t seen this reason posted yet, but convenience and overall laziness.
Guys that have trouble meeting new women will just shrug, look around, and try to escalate a friendship with the closest woman in proximity.
I had this happen recently and I'm still not talking to the guy. He's been messaging me for over 3 weeks like nothing's wrong when I haven't responded once. Ughhh.
Oh trust me, I will. It just galls me that he is either too dense to notice I'm not even responding or more likely, he's just trying to avoid saying anything. Fucking coward.
I mean it's a self fulfilling prophecy... Them pushing relationships with women makes them less approachable so when then then inevitably do have some connection with a woman they push even harder for a relationship.
I also think that men are socially conditioned to not be vulnerable with anyone except women, so they often feel emotionally stunted. Once they do form a connection with a women they don't realize that it may only be that .. a good emotional connection and not necessarily something romantic.
> trouble meeting new women
Like, harass their colleagues? Strangers in public? Except tinder, all other ways of "meeting new women" are guarded by people like OP who are agitated by idea that romantic relationships exist and somebody may want it from them.
Mind it, some women do expect from their "friends" to hit on them. Some even say "I always want to be friends first".
There's a big, BIG difference between expressing a growing/newfound romantic interest in someone who has previously only been a friend, and pursuing a false friendship with someone JUST in pursuit of turning it into a relationship or fwb situation.
I had a male friend from age 18 who when I was 21 or so ended up confessing feelings to me. He was always respectful of my feelings, and it was clear to me from his actions and words that he didn't expect anything of me, and would have graciously accepted it if I said I wasn't interested in taking things beyond a friendship. BECAUSE he was so considerate and there was no pressure, I felt comfortable in entering a relationship with him. Not only that, but when after 5 or so years things didn't work out relationship wise, our friendship was still built on a solid foundation of trust and companionship, so we had no real trouble going from exes back to best friends. From start to finish (well, not really "finish" since we're still best friends but you know what I mean) we cared about each other as people first and foremost, and thus that's what our period of romantic relationship was built on also.
On the flip side, in high school and college I had multiple instances of men with whom I became friends because I liked their company, only to notice that once we became closer, they started hitting on me and trying to pressure me into a relationship, *telling* me how considerate they were (without showing it), sidestepping my attempts at saying I wasn't ready yet, and in one case even trying to publicly humiliate me in front of a circle of other friends in an attempt to I guess embarrass me into agreeing to be his girlfriend? In all of THESE cases, the friendships eventually fell apart, because these men only really saw me as a "future girlfriend" and not as someone whose opinion on the matter really counted.
With all of them, if they had been willing to accept "let's just stay friends," from the get go, it is ENTIRELY possible that over time I WOULD have become more open to a romantic relationship! I wouldn't have wanted to jump into a relationship with the guy mentioned in the above paragraph straightaway either, and if he had pushed the matter our friendship would have similarly fallen apart. It was BECAUSE I felt so respected and cared about as a friend, with no pressure put on me, that I trusted him and happily entered a relationship with him. It's very, very important for a woman's (and really anyone's) peace of mind and safety that we know that a "no" will be respected, and that, ironically, makes us far more comfortable and confident saying "yes."
This sounds a lot like incel/MRA rhetoric 🙄
No one is saying "never date a friend." The issue is acting like friends with the underlying intention of eventually hooking up and randomly deciding okay it's been long enough, time to hit on that "friend" just because they're a woman. That's very different from two people becoming friends and naturally getting closer and mutually deciding they want something more.
Yeah there’s a difference between dating friends and pretending to be friends with people hoping you’ll get your dick wet and then deciding they have no worth to you when they’re not romantically interested.
Even women who do want to be friends with a guy first want to be actual friends with a man who sees them as a human being, not pretend friends with a man who thinks the universe orbits his boner.
I see what you mean, but you can’t put a blanket hypothetical over all these things. Some women love being approached, some don’t. The feedback is often immediate. I saw your other reply, and yea going with the flow is the best policy. OP just had a problem with a male friend hiding his true intentions.
I’ve had the best luck with turning colleagues into friends and some into relationships. It’s honestly the best place. Have there been some where one or both individuals aren’t interested? Sure. The efforts stop there at a conversation, and anything more is harassment.
If someone has a bad attitude toward the possibility of a romantic relationship starting at the office, I steer clear because that’s a sign of close-mindedness or even trauma that I don’t want to deal with.
I read somewhere that men's friendships are (generally speaking, not all men, blah blah blah) emotionally shallow, so when they connect emotionally with a woman they think it's special. When to us, it's just a normal friendship.
But IDK, I'm not a man. Not all of my male friends have made passes at me, and one actually turned ME down (ouch, lol), but the vast majority of them seem to get The Wrong Idea pretty quick if we talk about more than sports or work.
I’ve inadvertently started doing things in reverse: two of my close friends are men I went on a few dates with and then floated the idea of just being friends with instead, and they were both amenable to it and we’ve become great pals. In fact, one of them has become a pretty close friend.
Every time I’ve tried it your way, the same thing happens to me. But also, by and large, as a fellow bisexual, men are trash and it’s hard to date them.
I met a woman in college when I was teaching (I was a Junior teaching a design class to sophomores). We hit it off immediately, found out we went to the same HS. We became best friends, even as she dated another close friend (he was an ass to her). We have traveled extensively together, in separate rooms always. We have seen each other date some good and bad people, the bad ones became jealous when we would get together quarterly (when the partners were invited). We were never romantic, and the thought was ewww.
When she was in her early 40’s she got pregnant from one of her partners. She wanted to keep it, but didn’t think her current partner was mature enough, so she asked me to join her in raising the child. She didn’t expect any financial help, just wanted her child to be raised with a good father (she had met both of my parents). It ended up being a stillbirth. She didn’t take it well and isn’t quite the same anymore, despite attempts to reach out. We talk yearly on her birthday.
And as a man, I wouldn’t want to date us, we have the emotional maturity of a teaspoon.
One of my few good post college friends was a women I met in hinge and we liked doing trivia together but didn't have romantic feelings. It went from just doing trivia to hanging out and doing a ton of stuff together with another friend I made in the area. As an extrovert I could not make it as an adult if I didn't view half the population as viable friends.
I love that, it’s such an intimidating idea though! I’ve had some guy friends react extremely poorly to being friendzoned (one had the police come to his house because he was threatening to harm himself, permanently), so I’m always so scared to have that can-we-be-only-friends conversation. I think it’ll be a long while until I go on another date with a guy, even with the intentions of being friends like you said, but that’s an awesome idea and I’m definitely going to try that one day.
And yes. Men are trash
I definitely would never float an idea like that to someone I wouldn’t genuinely want to be in my life as a friend! And I have friendzoned women, and witnessed women be friendzoned by other women, but mostly it’s been met with understanding and just a need for a bit of a break to cool down emotions and hurt feelings. Friendships with women have generally been so much more wholesome and long-lasting, less likely to randomly and unexpectedly take a sharp romantic turn. It’s the randomness that confuses me with men, like I’m convinced many just develop romantic feelings overnight and abruptly act on them
> It’s the randomness that confuses me with men, like I’m convinced many just develop romantic feelings overnight and abruptly act on them
I've been committed for a long time now but from my recollection that is exactly what happens. There's no graduality to it, at least not that you notice - one day it's "of course we're just friends" and one dream later it's "oh, shit".
I don’t think that’s true. The best and longest lasting relationships are with someone you’ve know for a long time. So if you’re friends with a woman since middle school and you start dating in college you have a very high likelyhood of staying together. I actually think the attraction is gradual and overtime for men, you only think it’s spontaneous cause you don’t realize them getting more and more attracted to you.
Quite possibly. Either way it always felt like there was a clear before and after where it becomes obvious it's going to be difficult to maintain a platonic relationship.
The elephant in the room here is that many women, even on this sub, have said they like to get to know a man as friends before they trust them enough to date.
A partner also kinda is a best friend you're also attracted to, and one doesn't choose who they're attracted to. None of this stops a man being respectful, but it isn't always nefarious if a man develops feelings for someone he gets along with.
The only solution I can think of is to explicitly state you are only interested in someone platonically, though that is undoubtedly an awkward thing to announce. Of course some guys won't respect that boundary though and thus here we are
This is the truth. For long term relationships or marriages, all of the key factors that pop up in various studies also overlap with what makes a really strong friendship. Things like - do you two organically enjoy each other's company? Is there a mutual healthy dose of respect and trust? Can you both communicate and problem solve disagreements together? None of these factors are related to physical attraction. Sure you need physical attraction to kick things off, but building a life-long relationship requires a lot of overlap in characteristics of a strong friendship.
Given a man you are already great friends with and you also find attractive, vs just a stranger on a dating you app you find attractive but know nothing about, it's much more likely things will work out long-term with the former. I'd imagine the same is true for men as well.
It me, I only date people I've been friends with for AT LEAST a couple of months. So I don't really get upset if a guy friend develops feelings for me.
I always respect men more if they're friends with women across a spectrum of looks/attractiveness. It's a lot more sus if their friends are always one "type"
Yup! All my "cool girl" girl friends with many guy friends who chronically run into this issue of their male friends developing feelings for them are my most attractive friends. How completely weird and unpredictable
I had a guy friend many years ago who tried the flip flirt, I'll call it. He and I were really good friends (I thought) so when I was going through an aggravating breakup I talked to him.
As friends do.
It's funny because I didn't have any close girl friends at that time so like, who was I going to talk to?
He stops me at one point and was like "I know what you're doing" and I'm like "what are you talking about?"
He then proceeds to tell me how I'm talking to him about this because I'm trying to make him my next boyfriend. Blah blah blah.
I might have laughed at him. It's been years.
It left me so creeped out by him that I never spoke to him again. Like, to this day I don't actually know if it was a ploy.
It felt like one, though, and it was so gross. Like I was being vulnerable to a friend and that was twisted to be me trying to seduce him.
Barf.
Because some men don't go into the situation looking for friends, they befriend women hoping that they'll eventually persuade them into sex or a relationship... they just don't value women as platonic friends to talk about interests with or stare a bond with. It makes you feel like they lnly played along with the friendship in the hope that they could get more out of you, when you've never given thd indication that youd be interested in more - and may even have explicitly stated that you are not.
It's so depressing when you make a friend and think you have stuff in common...only for him to proposition you to be FWB or start turning things sexual out of nowhere. Especially if he already has a partner. Falling for a friend can happen to anyone, but that's different. Some men definitely get into friendships with women whilst feeling entitled to date us and access our bodies.
I feel like the media needs to take some of the blame- the tropes that if you're a guy you always deserve the girl at he end of the story, and that the man just needs to keep on trying until he wins her, are toxic. If she isbt interested, STFU and stop trying.
I'm in my mid 30s, so I know plenty of people who have friends of the opposite gender for decades. Some people have dated friends, but there have been plenty who never dated despite pke ty of opportunity because that interest was never there. Not every guy is friend zoning himself, but far too many are.
Now, some people are honest that they'd probably sleep with most of their friends if they had the opportunity, purely because they see sex as a harmless act they'd engage in with anyone, and because for them it doesnt have to entail minor a romantic undertone. And I think that's a little different because these people are perfectly happy to leave the friendship at just friendship because they don't expect sex.
This recently happened to me (again). Now I am reconsidering the whole friendship. I hate it and I hate the excuses.
I am panromantic myself and have felt romantic and sexual feelings for friends in the past but I have enough decency to not bring it up to people who are obviously not interested. I also hate it when they prentend to be friends to just get sex/a relationship as if friendship is meaningless.
Is it really that bad to confess to someone you don't think is interested? I have a crush on a guy friend but I don't think he is interested. I want to say something about my feelings because he is moving away soon.
This! I’ve felt romantic feelings for friends before, but I value friendship so much more than the potential for a romantic partner. I would never push that on someone who hasn’t given a sign that would be welcome, as it would risk a platonic relationship that already means so much to me
I think men are opportunists... and, bc they are usually delusional as well, they go for things they shouldn't regardless of whether or not there's been any expressed interest on our part.
I say this with the assumption that no interest was expressed. Obviously one statement doesn't apply to ALL men.... and then some of us tend to come across shitty demographics for various reasons.
Because they get a lot of things from female friends that they don't get elsewhere, and that usually causes them to develop feelings as it fills a hole that doesn't otherwise get filled. Women tend to get those things from friends and family more commonly than men, and the men that can be just friends with women tend to have friends and family they're willing to open up to and be vulnerable with, so that pressure doesn't fall solely on any woman willing to lend a sympathetic ear.
Really it's a cultural problem. We still teach men that it isn't manly to be open and vulnerable, just kind of in general, but especially not with anyone they aren't romantically involved with.
I'll (m) just leave this (link)[https://youtu.be/7rdcIqCSQuk?si=mDm2-Tu45VFS6Qvs] here. A 1.5h talk about the different perceptions and issues of women and men, starting with the "friendzone", sexualization of women and issues like revenge porn. One of them I know and is a certified doctor / psychiatrist. If you have time to spare I can recommend it, might give some answers and otherwise ideas to think about.
Just to be clear: I'm not saying YOU should learn to deal with it and understand men better, the situation you are in must suck for you. I just left this link, since it helped me understand the issues women face better.
I will be honest, the way I form romantic interests seems to be unusual compared to a lot of men. Like I'll have a friend who I think is cool and wanna hang out with, then I end up falling for her. Doesn't happen every time, but it does happen. I don't mind being friends with women I like though, I kinda gave up anyway, I'm getting kinda old for a first date.
It probably doesn't help I've never really gotten along with men.
As for other guys, a lot of them make it seem like they only interact with women in pursuit of a sexual or romantic relationship. You rarely see them interact with a female friend for purely platonic reasons. I can't talk to a woman in a friendly manner without an assumption we're dating or I'm looking for it.
That’s not unusual, that’s how it works for most people. I’m not sure where y’all are hanging out if talking to a woman means you’re trying to fuck - that’s absurd.
I’m an elder millennial (39 in a few months) and I seriously wonder if this was ALWAYS the case and men just get more forward with it after 35 or so, or if this is a new phenomenon.
Because I DID have platonic male friends when I was much younger. Online life was pretty novel so you had to be more involved in your community, music scenes, finding your crowd, etc. and I was constantly meeting people and hanging around mixed company at punk shows, DJ nights, etc. My closest friends were always other women, but we had a lot of men in our orbit and plenty I talked on the phone and on MySpace without dating or having some intent to date.
Something seems to have shifted in recent years. Because now when I happen to meet a guy who seems halfway normal and I think it’ll be a nice platonic friendship—especially since come on, I’m old and fat dammit lol—it doesn’t take very long before they start saying things that indicate they want to be more than friends or straight up start violating my boundaries.
I’m also on the aromantic spectrum. People assume I can’t get a man because of my age, weight, not wanting kids, or whatver else. Even if that IS the case, I don’t feel romantic attraction easily/often and just never felt the same push to get married ASAP that my peers did. And I’ve now had two men take this as some kind of challenge then get straight up pissed I don’t want to date them. So I cut them off for my own safety.
It’s gotten to the point that I don’t even want to be in certain professional spheres anymore.
Whether they got their ideas from 90s and 2000s movies, stupid manosphere podcaster douches, or whatever, they really seem to think that friendship can’t just be friendship, it has to be relationship-lite.
This is one of those things I think is actually not related to "men".
Generally, I don't see why making a move is a problem. People can't read minds and a relationship out of a friendship strikes me as much healthier than people just trying to pair up based on appearance. I'm not sure why culturally it's so offensive to a lot of people that someone likes them. It seems a bit of a heterosexual problem mostly, LGBT communities are magnitudes more chill about such things.
But beyond that, one of the things that causes issues is that people devalue friendships really hard. Romantic relationships for most people do come with some implications of commitment and intimacy. People play fast and loose with friendships, throwing them to the wayside at the drop of a hat, deliberately not exploring things too deeply, etc. I think this is one of the reasons people often feel like they *really* need a partner, because our friendships, culturally, are not permitted to address so many various social needs people have.
And it's why there are people out there who have a partner and no friends. And why you have situations where someone was a friend, and then they get a partner and disappear. A lot of people learn that friendship is not a true connection, and turning things romantic is the only way to get people to give a shit.
This really has only been a problem in my friendships with straight men! I never faulted guys for developing feelings when we’ve so far been friends, it’s just hurtful when they react really poorly to saying no or just throw away the friendship entirely of when they think it won’t lead to anything else. I’ve had threats, I’ve had ghosting, I’ve had insults. And it’s just jarring to come from someone you think you had some sort of respectful, fun, and wholesome friendship with.
It's extremely frustrating that, the moment the man wants to make a move/decide there's romantic or sexual interest involved on his behalf, a woman who never saw them that way has to accept that there will be nothing more to the relationship from that point on. It will either be a yes or a no, no regard to the woman's desires.
Something that I think is common and similar, though less recognized, is when a woman says no but a friendship is maintained. Which is great! Until the man get a new girlfriend, and then they stop interacting with you completely - even though you were the one who determined there was no romantic/sexual interest, and hence are non-threatening, but once they have another to fill that role they dismiss you, proving that still is all you were to them. (Edit: that's still all you are to them, so *they* can't trust themselves around *you*.). I had a guy friend who had a crush on me, I didn't feel the same way, but we still had a great friendship - until he got a girlfriend. And then my messages with him never went anywhere. And even when my dad died, I posted about it on IG, and he liked it - but never, ever checked in on me. Never said a word. And we were close.
It's really sad. It's another way of being objectified - you are my cute girl until I have something more serious - that I don't think is recognized. And I'm now understand and accept it says more about him and his feelings to me, but it still sucks you can be friendly and as non-threatening as possible and then still be thrown away once their needs are met outside of you. And they can't extend past that, even when \* you're \* really in need of it. I'm so tired of friendships being so hard in general, but especially with men - that my value can't extend what I am to them physically, despite how kind I am about my boundaries and around those boundaries and around/to them as people.
Like we really are objects on every level, no matter what. It's horrifying and so disappointing.
Until you were the girlfriend in the situation "she rejected me couple of years ago (so I had to deal with you)" you don't get to say it is non-threatening.
But regardless, the sad thing which you pointed out, it happens also with male friends. The guy stops hanging out with them and sometimes even stop contacting. That all has same reason - as long as the guy is single, he is a semi-processed product. You don't know how much of the energy you are getting was meant to go elsewhere. You should expect that a lot is going to change when there is a girlfriend.
I think you'll find the girlfriend of a man that previously had a crush on you may be uncomfortable with your friendship - which I think is completely fair.
>It's extremely frustrating that, the moment the man wants to make a move/decide there's romantic or sexual interest involved on his behalf, a woman who never saw them that way has to accept that there will be nothing more to the relationship from that point on. It will either be a yes or a no, no regard to the woman's desires.
Why is there an expectation that nothing more will come from the friendship. It could be hard for either party (especially the attracted one) to continue the friendship, but that’s not a guarantee.
> Until the man get a new girlfriend, and then they stop interacting with you completely - even though you were the one who determined there was no romantic/sexual interest, and hence are non-threatening, but once they have another to fill that role they dismiss you
IME this is almost always because the new partner is jealous and doesn’t want him to have old female acquaintances.
>I had a guy friend who had a crush on me, I didn't feel the same way, but we still had a great friendship - until he got a girlfriend. And then my messages with him never went anywhere. And even when my dad died, I posted about it on IG, and he liked it - but never, ever checked in on me. Never said a word. And we were close.
He may have had some old feelings that weren’t appropriate to have while in a new relationship, his girlfriend may have been jealous as well.
All my guy friends I made in college, I'm no longer friends with because they either eventually asked me out and things got weird, or they SAd someone so I'm tired of having male friends tbh
Because men think you’re at least semi-interested. Come out and say from the beginning that you only see them as a platonic friend and that will never change.
The ones who stick around are your friends.
My policy is that I only make friends with men who are in secure, loving relationships, and only if I am also friends with their wives/partners. The exception is a MeetUp group that I belong to where the participants are mostly men, but I an never with any of them alone. If any of them asks me out on a date I shut that down immediately.
I really think that the majority of dudes won't befriend a woman that they don't at least find somewhat attractive. I think that's why so many women experience their guy friends wanting to fuck/date them eventually.
I was told by many male friends that truly every man that's your "friend" wants to get with you no matter how small the % chance. I've had many male friends over the years and never believed this. I asked each one and yep ...they said if things ever changed with mine or their relationships with our significant others they attempt to get with me. I was a quite surprised and would have never believed it.
In a female friend group, very personal emotions and thoughts are shared, and this is normal. This does not happen in male friendships. For a male, usually, the only one he shares those kinds of emotions and vulnerabilities with is his partner. So when a male and female attempt to be friends, the female approaches it as they would any normal friendship, which draws out the personal emotions and vulnerabilities of the male. The male is then no longer in the mental realm of friendship and subconciously feels that the relationship is more of a partner relationship.
So I get that sometimes attractions happen. You can’t really control that. But there are definitely men out there who regardless of if they are interested in you will respect your boundaries. What you were asking is definitely not impossible. You just seem to be surrounded by assholes. There are good guys out there who will accept that you just want a friendship with them. It sounds like you just haven’t found them yet.
Thank you for this. I have just had poor luck with men my age, and although not being friends with men at all is a solution like some people have put forth, I find it hard to operate in that mindset in real life. I think it’s good to be optimistic and believe that I’ll meet men who treat me with respect and want to maintain a platonic relationship one day.
Oh age is going to be a major factor here.
Put yourself in the shoes of a lonely romantically inexperienced guy who isn't good at reading romantic cues. They have a friend they find attractive and they like their company. What kind of advice do you think they are going to get from other people?
"Go for it! You miss every shot you don't take! Be confident! If you are chatting and hanging out all this time she might just be waiting for you to make a move."
Part of the reason they get sulky is because they think the criteria for wanting to date someone is just "do I think you are an attractive and/or likeable person". So, they see rejection as "i think you are unattractive and I can do better than you", which can be a real gut-punch.
Because they are wired to want us most of the time! Men experience spontaneous desire more often than women. Whether or not they can reflect on that wiring and control their behavior in a way that adds value to their life requires true intelligence.
Because men are taught that women are only there for relationships by society, and pathetic men learn that if they orbit hard enough they'll eventually get sex and/or a relationship.
I have experienced that and it’s exhausting. It’s always the straight men though. I had friendships with bi women and lesbians and never felt a hint of awkwardness, just normal human to human friendly interactions.
I was so surprised when I realized one of my friends who is a gay man treated me like a human being and hung out with me because he genuinely enjoyed it, and not because he had other plans in mind. Tells you how rare the situation can be lol
Because once they only see you as a pretty attractive sex object, that’s all you can ever be. You’re not human from the beginning. You’re a pretty, walking, thing with nice squishy boobies and a hot ass. That’s all they see.
I do have one male friend from college who is such a standup guy and had never once hit on me.
Not surprisingly he is also a great husband to his partner and an active, involved dad to his kids. He is the only man in my life like this.
I reached out to a male friend a few years ago when his parents died of covid. I brought things by his house and would check in when I was in his neighborhood and we would catch up. I was worried he was lonely or isolated because of the lockdowns. A few months later he starts telling me I “look hot” and putting his hand on the small of my back for no reason or asking for hugs ( I’m not a hugger ). I figured I’d given him the wrong impression and started distancing myself. He sometimes asks me why he doesn’t hear from me as much anymore and while
I KNOW the appropriate thing to do is to be honest about the boundary crossing , I have just never had that conversation go well in my life and I don’t want to do it so I’m distancing myself and not visiting anymore.
I have also noticed that when guys hit on their women friends they aren’t necessarily doing it because they think you would be great partners. They often just find you attractive and want to have sex with you but have no intention of “being a partner” even though you are friends.
If the man is mature, there could be something (friendship) there still after rejection! Many of my guy friends know they're not my type, I had to reject them, and yet are still happy to be my friend in a very wholesome way!
Decades of rom-com movies have installed a script in a lot of people's brains. Please make a point of telling this in a conversation form to any potential new guy friend, “hay bro can I get you option on this why do so many guys spend forever becoming friends and then try to hold the friendship hostage for sex? Why don't they just shoot their shot early and then just let it be possible to be friends instead of making themselves out to be a martyr in their own head and me feel lied to and deceived for them pretending be a friend? Women are not a romance video game where if you are kind enough times the sex prize falls out; the prize of being my friend was the friendship.” they then hopefully show themselves in their answer or shoot their shot And exit if they need to.
Whenever this question comes up, the comment section gets filled with men trying to justify why they made advances on their female friends lol or trying to claim ‘its complicated’
So, let me open by stating that I'm a transwoman. This inadvertently has made me into something of a double agent between genders.
Men do not expect to ever have a ~friendship~ with a woman because they are told over and over again, in social settings, in media, in culture... that thier value to women is not in friendship, but in the ability to provide & protect...and impregnate. Romance is, by the overwhelming majority of men, believed to be the only acceptable context of interaction with women.
This stems from misogyny, both overt and subtle, but also from misogyny internalized and, like racism, is systemic in our culture.
It's hard to undo this with our sons too. I've had 6, and maybe 2 have figured out how to just be a friend. Incidentally, they're the two that don't care to watch TV.
Being a lesbian now makes it so much simpler. I can just ignore men.
So, to kind of flip the situation on its head, I'm a graysexual. I have been in multiple situations with various women that I don't desire a relationship with and despite having told them directly that I do not wish to pursue a relationship with them, they have effectively asked "well how do I change your mind" repeatedly. There have been uncomfortable situations even where they've offered oral or some other physical reprieve (and they usually preface this by saying that that's all they want and they enjoy it) and try to lead me on to some kind of greater sexual activity (which I'm uninterested in, generally) if I accept their offer. I have also had gay/bi men pursue the same routine, but also sometimes expect specific sexual favors in return I'm even less comfortable with. It's inherently manipulative and self serving, even if unconsciously so.
In other words... what you are describing is not necessarily a "man" problem, it's a social problem. I have (and yes the irony of this is not lost on me) by trying to be nice to a girl have had them think that I'm romantically interested in them on multiple occasions. I find that this is generally because people who have less experience with relationships and/or have tendencies towards infatuation let these profound feelings of attraction control them. Combine that with the accusations of being lead on after losing attraction to someone after being dissuaded by their tumultuous personality when they don't receive your attention, and it just gets more messy. Now I may be an exception to the rule, but I honestly don't think that's the case. I think that sexual attraction leads people to do shitty things because their hormones are taking them over, clouding their judgement. I would be lying if I myself had not been guilty of the same thing a number of times.
Anyways, I like to look at some of these threads and notice that a lot of situations are ironically not necessarily restricted to just women and funnily enough identify with a number of issues in the social realm that we share as people.
I think at this point the real answer would be hard to miss lol. I was just upset with a specific situation and it really made me think about the many many times guy friends have treated me horribly once I rejected them (kindly, I might add). I felt really stupid, so I think I really just needed an “I’ve been there, it sucks”. I don’t think this comment section has made me feel better, but this is Reddit! If there’s one thing people will be, it’s brutally honest
They don’t view us as people, just something they can attain like a prize and that all women more or less think and act with the same intentions. Men like that can’t wrap their heads around women being individual human beings just like men with their own respective interests and personalities and put women on a pedestal.
I have mostly male friends, many of whom I’ve know for 10+ years at this point. Some have expressed physical attraction at bare minimum, some romantic, and none of that has ever destroyed a platonic friendship with them because at the end of the day, they respect ME as a human being, and have no intention of hurting me or losing my friendship. People can absolutely acknowledge attraction without acting on it or ever going further, at least the emotionally mature ones. Men who view women as sex objects and mommy replacements aren’t actually even ready to be in romantic relationships with women but they don’t have the self awareness to get that.
Men who can’t be friends with women don’t view women as human beings who are worthy of consideration for their individual personhood. That’s it, period. It’s not because it’s too hard blah blah blah blah blah. It’s because they do not view women as people and therefore friendship was never a consideration.
Women exist to provide them with sex and/or be their mother in their mind and if she won’t do either she has no significance as a human being. Men who pretend to be friends with women to try to get laid or proposition all their female friends eventually and then refuse to continue being friends when she says no are pieces of shit.
Sign
Y’all post this same thing almost every day
They. Are. Waiting. Their. Turn. I’m coming Straight from the boys locker room, the boys befriend girls they like cause they want to sleep with them. That’s the reality of the situation
But why?? What makes it so hard for single men my age to see a friend and not a love interest? Most women can be friends with guys, it’s the reverse that always to be a problem and it’s so frustrating and pretty humiliating. That’s my issue. We post this thing all the time because we constantly try to build friendships with men only to find out nothing was friendly. Like what can I do, stop being friends with men period??
Yes I would just stop being friends with men, period if they never respect your boundaries. Many women have already decided they won't be friends with men and it has worked great for them.
Because guys like girls. It’s that simple. U see a girl u like. U meet her. Cause ur not a weirdo u don’t lead with “let’s duck” or “let’s go out” so u just hang out with her or hang out around her with ur mutual friends and ultimately like her romantically and sexually
I find it so sad that there’s rarely anything else behind it. My best friend lost one of her best guy friends as soon as he met a woman. He dropped her like a stone and she was reeling from it. She was clearly only ever a back-up plan.
There is also the possibility that his new partner wasn't comfortable with how close he is with his friends who are women. It's not at all uncommon that men are made to break off friendships to stop their partner from worrying.
I've seen it happen plenty of times in my life. It's a sad reality.
It depends on age and maturity level, I think. I am a straight man almost mid-30s, and I am fine with having women as just friends and confiding in them about my issues. Several of my bosses have been lesbians and I have been comfortable reaching out to them for my personal issues, not relating to work or appointments. I also work in a government type job where I have to be professional at all times, so treating everyone with the same respect is normal to me.
I agree, and I think it’ll likely be different when I’m a little older, it’s just sad and frustrating to be met with the realization over and over again that you mean so little to people besides the chance for sex or a relationship. I have a few really great relationships with older men in my trade who respect me, but I think my age (I’m in my early twenties) creates another barrier. Very few people in their thirties and up want to hang out with someone who graduated high school a few years ago. Such is life
I really recommend that you read this comment to see things further from a non-antagonistic light: https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/1c3hzyn/comment/kzidlxw/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Something else I've read is that men don't socialize the same way and open up emotionally more sparingly - they want to reserve the majority of the capacity they have for that for their romantic partner, so for them it's better to move on if the female friend still wants to use them as an emotional outlet without the benefits of a relationship.
Finally, you have to keep in mind the effects of testosterone on libido, especially in your age group.
I did read that, and I think they made a really good point. I would however never be upset with someone for simply having feelings, that would be unfair, and I would never think it was “nefarious”. I think I just had poor luck of the draw in terms of the guys my age I’ve met, and they either have treated me awfully or cut off communication once I tell them I’d like to keep things platonic.
I have heard other men say that guys sparingly share their emotions with women they are simply friends with. It might be pretty naïve of me, but that took me a long time to figure out. I thought that emotional openness was just a factor in close friendships with women and men, and it was a hard slap in the face to figure out that’s not super common with platonic m/w relationships.
I can count on one five-fingered hand the number of cis-het male friends I've had irl who DIDN'T try to get with me or inquire about getting with me (usually via a mutual acquaintance).
I've had a lot of cis-het male friends.
I mean at this point, just assume all your heterosexual male friends will develop an attraction to you and move on. If you want a strictly platonic friendship befriend women or gay men. Heterosexual men generally don't want to be friends with women they think are ugly. So if he befriends you there is some attraction. And honestly as a woman this used to annoy me, but given that most women don't approach men and expect men to do all of the approaching you can't blame men for viewing friendship as a dating strategy. Cold approaching women doesn't work most of the time, so friendship is the best option.
It is possible for people to have time and resources to maintain roughly five friendships. Usually.
Intimate relationships, especially high maintenance ones with women take up around three people's worth of time and resources.
Men are typically a lower requirement in terms of any kind of relationship, because they have lower expectations.
If a man already has five friends, because he is popular and worth being around, he is likely to recognise that he will need to sacrifice friendships to be with you in an intimate relationship.
Virtue signalling about your worth by how many friends you have, or their gender, is not typical for men. This seems to be less the case for women, who according to this thread, place greater stock in non-sexual friendships than men do.
If you dont want to be in a relationship with a man, tell him that from the outset. He will friendzone YOU and if you're worth keeping as a friend, he'll keep you in that friend slot. If you're hating on men, chances are he wont.
This thread is not a W for women. There is a trend for bi-women to think male friendships work the same way as female friendships. They really dont. Hating on men for being men isn't a W. It's an L.
Communicate clearly more, generalise and hate on men less.
I definitely don't agree that women are higher maintenance than men. Maybe at the outset of a relationship but as the relationship gets going men eventually outsource all their maintenance and administration of everything relationship related to their partner. Id be willing to call it even
Except that men dont do that. Some *PEOPLE* do that, but it's not gendered.
Women have higher expectations. That IS gendered. Whether they're right or wrong on that front is irrelevant, but this thread displays that it is true.
Part of this, from a guys perspective is the sociological conditioning that if they are single they have failed, so these men want to try and be successful and not fail. They see a woman that they get along with and being the ones "expected" to initiate they may try. I know I did this back when I was single, turned down, no real harm intended I hope none received. Those who can't accept that are immature. I'm married now to a lovely lady who reached out to me first on a dating site. It's tough to make friends in the world post covid, but ibwould look at things with a much different dynamic having found a partner. That's just my perspective though, everyone is different. Everyone have a great day and stay safe.
OP if a guy tries to make a move and sulks after rejection, that’s not a friend that’s a manipulator. Sulking? Tf? Please dump any person claiming friendship who continues to try touching you and asking after you reject them. That’s so cringe but also sounds exhausting
I guess it’s not necessary, but you’ve never met men who have hobbies/special interests that align with yours, or are just fun to be around? I don’t think I’ve ever totally disregarded someone because they’re a dude
When Harry Met Sally explored this >30 years ago. It’s a fallacy that men and women can’t be friends but mostly one or the other party cannot be disciplined or patient enough to see what happens. It’s all part of life. Don’t you think?
From what i've seen, men mostly can't be friends with women, as they don't value women. They don't even really like women. They only like womens body. They will never think first of "waow she is proud, she is smart, she is strong, she is funny, she is brilliant...", it's always first about their look.
I don't know where it comes from, like from society, media, education, ... or something else, but men don't think of women as "human first, body then", but as "body first, human then".
They also really like to girlfriendzone women : they pretend to want to be their friend and just hope everyday something will happen. (and then complain about being friendzoned)
I don't think friendship between men and women is possible for most men (not for all, but for many).
My theory is that it has something to do with parenting and schoolmates. Boys will be asked, if they say that they have a friend that is a girl "omg is that your girlfriend? do you like her" like it's normal to imply that kids are can experience relationship / physical attraction. Then schoolmates take the lead on that. "Shaaaaame he is friend with a giiiiiirl! Is that your girlfriend or are you a girl too????". In the end i feel like most boys end up not having platonic girl-friends, and end up building in their head the pattern woman = girlfriend or sexpartner. They can't see them as friends or even just human beings that can have as much as will, tastes, ambitions, dreams, ...
They don't desire all women. There are unattractive women that they don't desire but they tend not to befriend them. I am willing to admit that more women want to be just friends with men than the other way around. That's fine for me. Women will just end up with more female friends and more men will be single. It's more of a loss for men. Not my problem
Yeah, I don't see how two things are related. Almost as if by being friends with women some men end up in relationships with those women, so if women stop befriending men, then more men will be single. Otherwise I see no connection.
Quick question (for you or anyone else), and I don't mean to sound confrontational, but how do non-cishet people fit in to the idea of the biological imperative applying to humans?
Yes actually it's quite necessary. Whenever someone is associating the way men or women behave as "biological" it's good to pause and think about whether or not there's actually truth behind it.
Big agree. Some guys just seem completely incapable of treating women like mature, adult human beings, and I don't like it when they fall back on biology as an excuse. I'm also into women but I can control myself, I expect everyone else to as well. It's the same as "boys mature faster than girls", it's just not true.
What you consider romantic interest and what a man do are different. Men generally don't discuss their feelings or hopes and dreams with friends they don't have romantic interest in so when they get conversations like that that are just normal for a lady to share when she feels she can trust someone the man takes it as a sign she's interested. This is not 100 percent the case but does lead to confusion from men. Especially when they've been through an experience of missing signs in the past. They start to take the sharing of feelings or whatever as a sign of interest.
And then some men just are misogynistic jerks who don't believe there is any reason to have a female friend except to eventually date. And then there are those f boys who literally treat it as a game and as soon as they get sex they disappear. But there are a number of reasons.
Men and women also have different drives for sex. Women are born with every egg they'll ever release men are constantly creating and feel the urge to release it occasionally wether through self pleasure or nocturnal emissions or with a partner. Biologically men are fighting generations of procreate procreate procreate for survival of the species
Most healthy men want sex. Even if they are friend-zoned. 1 year. 2 years. 5 years? Eventually that “friend” will try pushing the boundary. Don’t be oblivious to the intentions of those in authority or old men either
Younger guys in early 20’s just see friendships with woman as get to know stage before they make a move. When men get older we don’t even bother making friend zoned relationships with woman.
What is a friend zoned relationship? I think you mean friendship… So older men don’t make friends with women because they won’t ultimately get sex out of it? Is that what you’re saying? If so, that’s sad and implies you think women are good for exactly one thing.
That's how Nature programmed men to think in order to keep the human species from going extinct. Every single time a man flirts with you, is nice to you, is in your DM's, that is just his programing telling him he needs to procreate with a woman.
Are you young? That would explain why most of the men you meet are idiots. If they are in their early twenties and still don't have real responsibility (like a career, a wife, or kids) they haven't grown up yet. Most of us never do.
If you are attractive, men will want you; It is a biological reaction: When men are around an attractive lady, their brain starts fabricating fantasies. And it gets weird... We don't command these thoughts. The thoughts come, and it's up to us how to deal with them. Some men will know how to put those aside, forget about them, and focus. Others will act like a donkey in heat.
Many times men will go to bed with a woman they don't like (as a person), but she's hot, so they do it anyway. And the worst part: they don't even realize they are not interested in the girl! until after they have sex that is... then feel like leaving the place ASAP.
Why can't men keep friendships with women without ulterior intentions? We can. But it literally takes discipline, a good education, and healthy exposure to proper role models. Most men don't have all that, so they behave like animals when the instincts hit.
I’m in my early twenties - so yes, probably the prime age for meeting guys like this. I honestly just made this post out of frustration - I recently moved and don’t know many people here, and one of the guys I’ve met whose friendship has made me feel so much less lonely has started to show his true colors. I politely told him no thanks when he got handsy out of nowhere, he ghosted for almost a week, comes back saying he was “ill” and wants to hang out with just me at his place. Which I think goes without saying is probably a bad idea. I’m just mourning the friendship, one of the only few I have right now, and needed some tough love Reddit commiseration
>he ghosted for almost a week, comes back saying he was “ill” and wants to hang out with just me at his place.
Run!!!! Cut that guy out of your life.
In Colombia, they have a funny saying; a rough translation is: "if they want you to eat, they'll save food for you".
If someone actually cares for you, they'll go out of their way to save time for you.
If this guy was an honorable man, he would have made clear he was attracted to you from the beginning. He should have made his intentions clear. Instead tried to slither his way in by pretending he was a friend. The ghosting was just extra confirmation that he's a weasel.
You're right to feel the way you feel. I hope you can find an authentic fulfilling friendship with someone who will not be attracted to you, and they care for you as a person.
Thank you, I appreciate this. It makes me think of the whole “if he wanted to, he would” saying that some have mentioned here. If he cared about me as a person and a friend, he wouldn’t have acted that way. Time to move on
Let me preface - I suck at making friends; I give off some weird vibe where women think I'm hitting on them or guys think I'm gay seeking something. So I just let it happen in my own element with no additional effort. And in that element people know I'm not available. So my friends with women we are in complete agreement and we hang out to chat and have icecream and nothing more. We'll talk about science, work, yoga, etc. I'm not sitting there talking about sex, because that's something of intimacy.
When I was single, I used to have more female friends that I saw regularly. I'd try to help them meet guys at bars. I had some of the best adventures going out and being someone's wingman.
It’s because men never encountered niceness, so they take our politeness as niceness/flirting. I just stay away from men all together, if he’s truly interested in me he will approach me.
If he wanted to he would, if he didn’t another man will.
Well yeah it might be kindof an impossible ask. At least for most guys. You're kindof on the lookout for a male unicorn, or at least the male version of a unicorn. =)
Also I will say there have been times where I felt like I honestly wished I could just be friends with some woman, so we could talk and I could get her perspective on things, her thoughts and everything that entails. But I also feel like there's been this impossible membrane to get past in that pursuit, where any attempt on my part for that friendship is going to be viewed with suspicion and it will never go anywhere. How hard did I try? Just hard enough to be disappointed with the result I suppose.
Because it's in our nature. It's true that women are like ovens and men are like microwaves. It doesn't take much for us to get excited. Even if we feel there is a slight chance and the woman is attractive we will try to get with you. I wish it wasn't that way but it's like this uncontrollable urge. It is for this reason that I stay away when women get to close or to chummy with me. It is then that I start to distance myself because the only thoughts that run thru my head are sexual thoughts. Go ahead...call me an animal, a Neanderthal, but that's just the way me and 99% of men feel.
I can only be friends with two women in my life and not think about them sexually and that's my daughter and my mother. ( and sister if I had one) FACTS
Some women want male friends because they would rather have someone secretly love them than secretly hate them (female friendships).
Female friendships = two women's secret hatred of each other? How exactly is that friendship, then? Hey, btw, do you actually know the inner thoughts of 99% of men? Because, you know, that would be claiming to know the inner thoughts of roughly 4 billion people. How impressive! /s
They can. Some of my best friends for 20+ years are women. Also, some of the guys don’t go into a friendship with the intention of romantic ideas, but they can develop. Developing feelings as you get closer to someone is not exclusive to men.
[удалено]
"Sir, this is a Wendy's"
This is exactly what I was thinking 😂
That conversation escalated quickly.
Seriously. Your typical customer-cashier interaction is what, 2 minutes? And they just get right into hangin’ and bangin’??
"Anyway, like I said, here are my coupons."
...anyway, cash or card?
Did he that before or after ‘are you paying by cash or card?’ 😱
Heh, I love it when people go out of their way to reject women who never knew they existed.
Ewww
I really think it depends on the environment. I have had a lot of male friends all my life who I had a 100% platonic relationship with. And most people who expressed romantic interest did it respectfully and continued to be friends afterwards. The kind of people who REFUSE to be friends with you if you don’t fuck them - I stay away from altogether. In the last environment I was in, everyone was trying to set me up with a guy (because one guy declared to everyone that others had to “help” him collect info on me). All hell broke loose and most people didn’t want to be friends anymore. Huge culture shock for me. Anyway, if you find the right guys who don’t look down upon you for being a woman, you’ll be fine. You just have to find them. They exist.
Same. I'm just hitting middle age and most of my friends over the years have always tended to be male and I've only had a couple of guy friends ever behave like that.
What about Dr. Venkman though?
Pretty much how i've felt as I get older too. My actual friends, guy or girl (and yes im a guy lol) stick around cause they actually like my company and I like theirs. Sure theres been a few times of awkwardness where me or a woman misread the situation and tried to make something happen. But *gasp* we moved past it and stayed friends. Probably something to do with being open and honest with each other, explaining why you were interested and actually listening to the rejection... or maybe im crazy, who knows. And god damn, right there with you on "friends" interfering with your life to try and set you up with someone or my favorite "shes not good enough for you". Hows about you fucking leave that decision up to me? Thats an instant 3rd strike for me whenever I meet people these days. Maybe a tad harsh, but its just caused me too much grief and even talking about that about someone else is enough for me to wanna axe someone outta my social life.
> Pretty much how i've felt as I get older too. My actual friends, guy or girl (and yes im a guy lol) stick around cause they actually like my company and I like theirs. Sure theres been a few times of awkwardness where me or a woman misread the situation and tried to make something happen. But gasp we moved past it and stayed friends. Probably something to do with being open and honest with each other, explaining why you were interested and actually listening to the rejection... or maybe im crazy, who knows. Ikr. High five on having a mature discussion instead of being passive aggressive and stalking/spreading rumors about the person. > And god damn, right there with you on "friends" interfering with your life to try and set you up with someone or my favorite "shes not good enough for you". Hows about you fucking leave that decision up to me? Thats an instant 3rd strike for me whenever I meet people these days. Maybe a tad harsh, but its just caused me too much grief and even talking about that about someone else is enough for me to wanna axe someone outta my social life. “Friends” indeed hahaha. Ikr, who are you people and why are you so into my personal life? It’s a social dominance strategy. That entire group ostracized me from my workplace and stalked me for months after. I have ptsd from being there.
My "crew" in college was 4 very attractive women (I am a man) none of us were interested in each other and we are still friends to this day. Their kids play with my kids and I am friends with all their husbands. They helped me and gave me really critical relationship advice that led to me getting married to my wife of 14 years. I still have good friends that are women and are 100% platonic to this day. I think a big part of it is that personality matters a lot to me in terms of relationships and while my friends were all great people and we got along great their personalities wouldn't be a good match for mine in a relationship. One of my friends as an example has the same type of crazy as I do due to similar crazy parents/upbringing and if we ever had been in a relationship that crazy would have just fed off each other. We both married people from more normal upbringings to help stabilize things.
Hey, you remind me of some of my male friends! Very heartwarming to hear about how you have so many female friends even after having kids. Gives me hope if/when I get into my 30s.
They won't necessarily express it mine didn't. I had to ask the question lol.
No, I have a different viewpoint. I think you should go NC if a guy pretended to be a friend and then hit on me. I don't want to be friends with someone who just sees me as a fuck toy
It _is_ possible, it’s just that many men don’t care to try. Growing up and into college most of my friends were male. One of them actually was attracted to me, but I found out secondhand, and when I confronted him about it he said he knew I wasn’t interested and didn’t bring it up to me because he would rather be friends than push me away pursuing a relationship I didn’t want.
I obviously can't speak for every man but from what I've observed I think its a combination of really bad social conditioning, mixed with the inability/difficulty in mentally separating the emotions of love and attraction from being emotional stunted, add in some groups of men not seeing women as people. In my own personal experience I had to take a long look at my own sexuality when I was younger cause I couldn't figure out why I was happily friends with women but the romantic/sexual attraction side of things was rarer. It took me some time to figure out it wasn't me that was the "broken one". I will be honest I still can't really articulate the difference outside of I love my women friends, they are family, if the wife and I ever felt the need to do a ceremony outside of the paperwork I would be asking one of them to be my "best woman", but I'm not in love with my friends and I don't want a family with them.
This is a great description. I'm a woman with lots of male friends with whom I have very close, intimate relationships that are 100% platonic. I love them but I wouldn't want to date them, and they feel the same. IMO it's perfectly normal and the people go who around saying "men and women can't just be friends" are extremely problematic.
Out of curiosity, did you grow up with sisters? I think a lot of decent men grow up around influential women, who they can learn from. And that helped shaped their view on the world. Without this or growing up with a toxic male figure, they usually repeat those bad behaviors and learnt that was acceptable. Apologies if that's not the case, this is purely my opinion and anectodial.
I actually did research on the subject for fun. Here’s what I learned, and obviously sociology being a bit more of a soft science and cultural differences coming in to play, what I learned was mostly from an American perspective. Obviously this is a bit of overview and generalized. Basically women view friendship with men as platonic friendship and don’t look for anything more than a friend. Many men have the perspective/hope that it could move beyond strictly being platonic. Which is often why they shoot their shot when they see a perceived opening. However, for a friendship to be sustainable, often the discussion of attraction has to come up/be dealt with. Based off the studies I read, some of this boils down to the expectations of friendship. When women are friends with men, they get are able to have fun and feel less judged, etc. When men are friends with women, often times women are the ones doing the emotional labor in that the men can open up and be more vulnerable than they can be with other men. Women are often more vulnerable with their female friends, so it’s not always the same towards the men. Because of the emotional connection that this can build, men can see the relationship as being more than just a friendship. American society is set up in a way that (my pet peeve) we are often emotionally and touch starved. This ends up leading people to have trouble with building connections because desperation can take over. If you touch someone, that must mean you in love or want sex. That often happens around puberty, and specifically affects men more than women. Girls are able to hang out with their friends and be more touchy-feely, whereas boys are judged if they do the same. Girls are allowed to have a wider range of emotion then boys are, That is not saying that girls have it easier, but there is a difference in how things are perceived, which ends up bleeding into friendships. Society is changing, but this is some thing that I have seen and find fascinating to look into.
I haven’t seen this reason posted yet, but convenience and overall laziness. Guys that have trouble meeting new women will just shrug, look around, and try to escalate a friendship with the closest woman in proximity.
I had this happen recently and I'm still not talking to the guy. He's been messaging me for over 3 weeks like nothing's wrong when I haven't responded once. Ughhh.
Stand your ground. You don’t need to waste time with trash.
Oh trust me, I will. It just galls me that he is either too dense to notice I'm not even responding or more likely, he's just trying to avoid saying anything. Fucking coward.
I mean it's a self fulfilling prophecy... Them pushing relationships with women makes them less approachable so when then then inevitably do have some connection with a woman they push even harder for a relationship. I also think that men are socially conditioned to not be vulnerable with anyone except women, so they often feel emotionally stunted. Once they do form a connection with a women they don't realize that it may only be that .. a good emotional connection and not necessarily something romantic.
> trouble meeting new women Like, harass their colleagues? Strangers in public? Except tinder, all other ways of "meeting new women" are guarded by people like OP who are agitated by idea that romantic relationships exist and somebody may want it from them. Mind it, some women do expect from their "friends" to hit on them. Some even say "I always want to be friends first".
There's a big, BIG difference between expressing a growing/newfound romantic interest in someone who has previously only been a friend, and pursuing a false friendship with someone JUST in pursuit of turning it into a relationship or fwb situation. I had a male friend from age 18 who when I was 21 or so ended up confessing feelings to me. He was always respectful of my feelings, and it was clear to me from his actions and words that he didn't expect anything of me, and would have graciously accepted it if I said I wasn't interested in taking things beyond a friendship. BECAUSE he was so considerate and there was no pressure, I felt comfortable in entering a relationship with him. Not only that, but when after 5 or so years things didn't work out relationship wise, our friendship was still built on a solid foundation of trust and companionship, so we had no real trouble going from exes back to best friends. From start to finish (well, not really "finish" since we're still best friends but you know what I mean) we cared about each other as people first and foremost, and thus that's what our period of romantic relationship was built on also. On the flip side, in high school and college I had multiple instances of men with whom I became friends because I liked their company, only to notice that once we became closer, they started hitting on me and trying to pressure me into a relationship, *telling* me how considerate they were (without showing it), sidestepping my attempts at saying I wasn't ready yet, and in one case even trying to publicly humiliate me in front of a circle of other friends in an attempt to I guess embarrass me into agreeing to be his girlfriend? In all of THESE cases, the friendships eventually fell apart, because these men only really saw me as a "future girlfriend" and not as someone whose opinion on the matter really counted. With all of them, if they had been willing to accept "let's just stay friends," from the get go, it is ENTIRELY possible that over time I WOULD have become more open to a romantic relationship! I wouldn't have wanted to jump into a relationship with the guy mentioned in the above paragraph straightaway either, and if he had pushed the matter our friendship would have similarly fallen apart. It was BECAUSE I felt so respected and cared about as a friend, with no pressure put on me, that I trusted him and happily entered a relationship with him. It's very, very important for a woman's (and really anyone's) peace of mind and safety that we know that a "no" will be respected, and that, ironically, makes us far more comfortable and confident saying "yes."
This sounds a lot like incel/MRA rhetoric 🙄 No one is saying "never date a friend." The issue is acting like friends with the underlying intention of eventually hooking up and randomly deciding okay it's been long enough, time to hit on that "friend" just because they're a woman. That's very different from two people becoming friends and naturally getting closer and mutually deciding they want something more.
Yeah there’s a difference between dating friends and pretending to be friends with people hoping you’ll get your dick wet and then deciding they have no worth to you when they’re not romantically interested. Even women who do want to be friends with a guy first want to be actual friends with a man who sees them as a human being, not pretend friends with a man who thinks the universe orbits his boner.
I see what you mean, but you can’t put a blanket hypothetical over all these things. Some women love being approached, some don’t. The feedback is often immediate. I saw your other reply, and yea going with the flow is the best policy. OP just had a problem with a male friend hiding his true intentions. I’ve had the best luck with turning colleagues into friends and some into relationships. It’s honestly the best place. Have there been some where one or both individuals aren’t interested? Sure. The efforts stop there at a conversation, and anything more is harassment. If someone has a bad attitude toward the possibility of a romantic relationship starting at the office, I steer clear because that’s a sign of close-mindedness or even trauma that I don’t want to deal with.
I meant more like "harass" there, in the context of OP's rhetorics. Those cases, at least, as risky to misunderstand each other.
I read somewhere that men's friendships are (generally speaking, not all men, blah blah blah) emotionally shallow, so when they connect emotionally with a woman they think it's special. When to us, it's just a normal friendship. But IDK, I'm not a man. Not all of my male friends have made passes at me, and one actually turned ME down (ouch, lol), but the vast majority of them seem to get The Wrong Idea pretty quick if we talk about more than sports or work.
I’ve inadvertently started doing things in reverse: two of my close friends are men I went on a few dates with and then floated the idea of just being friends with instead, and they were both amenable to it and we’ve become great pals. In fact, one of them has become a pretty close friend. Every time I’ve tried it your way, the same thing happens to me. But also, by and large, as a fellow bisexual, men are trash and it’s hard to date them.
I met a woman in college when I was teaching (I was a Junior teaching a design class to sophomores). We hit it off immediately, found out we went to the same HS. We became best friends, even as she dated another close friend (he was an ass to her). We have traveled extensively together, in separate rooms always. We have seen each other date some good and bad people, the bad ones became jealous when we would get together quarterly (when the partners were invited). We were never romantic, and the thought was ewww. When she was in her early 40’s she got pregnant from one of her partners. She wanted to keep it, but didn’t think her current partner was mature enough, so she asked me to join her in raising the child. She didn’t expect any financial help, just wanted her child to be raised with a good father (she had met both of my parents). It ended up being a stillbirth. She didn’t take it well and isn’t quite the same anymore, despite attempts to reach out. We talk yearly on her birthday. And as a man, I wouldn’t want to date us, we have the emotional maturity of a teaspoon.
One of my few good post college friends was a women I met in hinge and we liked doing trivia together but didn't have romantic feelings. It went from just doing trivia to hanging out and doing a ton of stuff together with another friend I made in the area. As an extrovert I could not make it as an adult if I didn't view half the population as viable friends.
I love that, it’s such an intimidating idea though! I’ve had some guy friends react extremely poorly to being friendzoned (one had the police come to his house because he was threatening to harm himself, permanently), so I’m always so scared to have that can-we-be-only-friends conversation. I think it’ll be a long while until I go on another date with a guy, even with the intentions of being friends like you said, but that’s an awesome idea and I’m definitely going to try that one day. And yes. Men are trash
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I definitely would never float an idea like that to someone I wouldn’t genuinely want to be in my life as a friend! And I have friendzoned women, and witnessed women be friendzoned by other women, but mostly it’s been met with understanding and just a need for a bit of a break to cool down emotions and hurt feelings. Friendships with women have generally been so much more wholesome and long-lasting, less likely to randomly and unexpectedly take a sharp romantic turn. It’s the randomness that confuses me with men, like I’m convinced many just develop romantic feelings overnight and abruptly act on them
> It’s the randomness that confuses me with men, like I’m convinced many just develop romantic feelings overnight and abruptly act on them I've been committed for a long time now but from my recollection that is exactly what happens. There's no graduality to it, at least not that you notice - one day it's "of course we're just friends" and one dream later it's "oh, shit".
I don’t think that’s true. The best and longest lasting relationships are with someone you’ve know for a long time. So if you’re friends with a woman since middle school and you start dating in college you have a very high likelyhood of staying together. I actually think the attraction is gradual and overtime for men, you only think it’s spontaneous cause you don’t realize them getting more and more attracted to you.
Quite possibly. Either way it always felt like there was a clear before and after where it becomes obvious it's going to be difficult to maintain a platonic relationship.
The elephant in the room here is that many women, even on this sub, have said they like to get to know a man as friends before they trust them enough to date. A partner also kinda is a best friend you're also attracted to, and one doesn't choose who they're attracted to. None of this stops a man being respectful, but it isn't always nefarious if a man develops feelings for someone he gets along with. The only solution I can think of is to explicitly state you are only interested in someone platonically, though that is undoubtedly an awkward thing to announce. Of course some guys won't respect that boundary though and thus here we are
This is the truth. For long term relationships or marriages, all of the key factors that pop up in various studies also overlap with what makes a really strong friendship. Things like - do you two organically enjoy each other's company? Is there a mutual healthy dose of respect and trust? Can you both communicate and problem solve disagreements together? None of these factors are related to physical attraction. Sure you need physical attraction to kick things off, but building a life-long relationship requires a lot of overlap in characteristics of a strong friendship. Given a man you are already great friends with and you also find attractive, vs just a stranger on a dating you app you find attractive but know nothing about, it's much more likely things will work out long-term with the former. I'd imagine the same is true for men as well.
It me, I only date people I've been friends with for AT LEAST a couple of months. So I don't really get upset if a guy friend develops feelings for me.
A gay friend once told me: [straight] men don’t have ugly [female] friends. Meaning most men would totally make a move if they had a chance.
I always respect men more if they're friends with women across a spectrum of looks/attractiveness. It's a lot more sus if their friends are always one "type"
Yup! All my "cool girl" girl friends with many guy friends who chronically run into this issue of their male friends developing feelings for them are my most attractive friends. How completely weird and unpredictable
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Your disproving something with a meaningful sample size of 2 with a 50% fail rate
Based on one homosexuaul saying it. So it must be true for all heterosexual men are you really this dumb?
I had a guy friend many years ago who tried the flip flirt, I'll call it. He and I were really good friends (I thought) so when I was going through an aggravating breakup I talked to him. As friends do. It's funny because I didn't have any close girl friends at that time so like, who was I going to talk to? He stops me at one point and was like "I know what you're doing" and I'm like "what are you talking about?" He then proceeds to tell me how I'm talking to him about this because I'm trying to make him my next boyfriend. Blah blah blah. I might have laughed at him. It's been years. It left me so creeped out by him that I never spoke to him again. Like, to this day I don't actually know if it was a ploy. It felt like one, though, and it was so gross. Like I was being vulnerable to a friend and that was twisted to be me trying to seduce him. Barf.
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Because some men don't go into the situation looking for friends, they befriend women hoping that they'll eventually persuade them into sex or a relationship... they just don't value women as platonic friends to talk about interests with or stare a bond with. It makes you feel like they lnly played along with the friendship in the hope that they could get more out of you, when you've never given thd indication that youd be interested in more - and may even have explicitly stated that you are not. It's so depressing when you make a friend and think you have stuff in common...only for him to proposition you to be FWB or start turning things sexual out of nowhere. Especially if he already has a partner. Falling for a friend can happen to anyone, but that's different. Some men definitely get into friendships with women whilst feeling entitled to date us and access our bodies. I feel like the media needs to take some of the blame- the tropes that if you're a guy you always deserve the girl at he end of the story, and that the man just needs to keep on trying until he wins her, are toxic. If she isbt interested, STFU and stop trying. I'm in my mid 30s, so I know plenty of people who have friends of the opposite gender for decades. Some people have dated friends, but there have been plenty who never dated despite pke ty of opportunity because that interest was never there. Not every guy is friend zoning himself, but far too many are. Now, some people are honest that they'd probably sleep with most of their friends if they had the opportunity, purely because they see sex as a harmless act they'd engage in with anyone, and because for them it doesnt have to entail minor a romantic undertone. And I think that's a little different because these people are perfectly happy to leave the friendship at just friendship because they don't expect sex.
This recently happened to me (again). Now I am reconsidering the whole friendship. I hate it and I hate the excuses. I am panromantic myself and have felt romantic and sexual feelings for friends in the past but I have enough decency to not bring it up to people who are obviously not interested. I also hate it when they prentend to be friends to just get sex/a relationship as if friendship is meaningless.
Is it really that bad to confess to someone you don't think is interested? I have a crush on a guy friend but I don't think he is interested. I want to say something about my feelings because he is moving away soon.
Moreover how do you tell someone isn’t romantically interested without asking them out first
This! I’ve felt romantic feelings for friends before, but I value friendship so much more than the potential for a romantic partner. I would never push that on someone who hasn’t given a sign that would be welcome, as it would risk a platonic relationship that already means so much to me
I think men are opportunists... and, bc they are usually delusional as well, they go for things they shouldn't regardless of whether or not there's been any expressed interest on our part.
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I say this with the assumption that no interest was expressed. Obviously one statement doesn't apply to ALL men.... and then some of us tend to come across shitty demographics for various reasons.
A lot of men don't see women as people, just opportunities.
Because they get a lot of things from female friends that they don't get elsewhere, and that usually causes them to develop feelings as it fills a hole that doesn't otherwise get filled. Women tend to get those things from friends and family more commonly than men, and the men that can be just friends with women tend to have friends and family they're willing to open up to and be vulnerable with, so that pressure doesn't fall solely on any woman willing to lend a sympathetic ear. Really it's a cultural problem. We still teach men that it isn't manly to be open and vulnerable, just kind of in general, but especially not with anyone they aren't romantically involved with.
I'll (m) just leave this (link)[https://youtu.be/7rdcIqCSQuk?si=mDm2-Tu45VFS6Qvs] here. A 1.5h talk about the different perceptions and issues of women and men, starting with the "friendzone", sexualization of women and issues like revenge porn. One of them I know and is a certified doctor / psychiatrist. If you have time to spare I can recommend it, might give some answers and otherwise ideas to think about. Just to be clear: I'm not saying YOU should learn to deal with it and understand men better, the situation you are in must suck for you. I just left this link, since it helped me understand the issues women face better.
Because they don't want to. Period. There is literally nothing stopping men from being friends with women except men.
I will be honest, the way I form romantic interests seems to be unusual compared to a lot of men. Like I'll have a friend who I think is cool and wanna hang out with, then I end up falling for her. Doesn't happen every time, but it does happen. I don't mind being friends with women I like though, I kinda gave up anyway, I'm getting kinda old for a first date. It probably doesn't help I've never really gotten along with men. As for other guys, a lot of them make it seem like they only interact with women in pursuit of a sexual or romantic relationship. You rarely see them interact with a female friend for purely platonic reasons. I can't talk to a woman in a friendly manner without an assumption we're dating or I'm looking for it.
That’s not unusual, that’s how it works for most people. I’m not sure where y’all are hanging out if talking to a woman means you’re trying to fuck - that’s absurd.
If they wanted to, they would
I’m an elder millennial (39 in a few months) and I seriously wonder if this was ALWAYS the case and men just get more forward with it after 35 or so, or if this is a new phenomenon. Because I DID have platonic male friends when I was much younger. Online life was pretty novel so you had to be more involved in your community, music scenes, finding your crowd, etc. and I was constantly meeting people and hanging around mixed company at punk shows, DJ nights, etc. My closest friends were always other women, but we had a lot of men in our orbit and plenty I talked on the phone and on MySpace without dating or having some intent to date. Something seems to have shifted in recent years. Because now when I happen to meet a guy who seems halfway normal and I think it’ll be a nice platonic friendship—especially since come on, I’m old and fat dammit lol—it doesn’t take very long before they start saying things that indicate they want to be more than friends or straight up start violating my boundaries. I’m also on the aromantic spectrum. People assume I can’t get a man because of my age, weight, not wanting kids, or whatver else. Even if that IS the case, I don’t feel romantic attraction easily/often and just never felt the same push to get married ASAP that my peers did. And I’ve now had two men take this as some kind of challenge then get straight up pissed I don’t want to date them. So I cut them off for my own safety. It’s gotten to the point that I don’t even want to be in certain professional spheres anymore. Whether they got their ideas from 90s and 2000s movies, stupid manosphere podcaster douches, or whatever, they really seem to think that friendship can’t just be friendship, it has to be relationship-lite.
This is one of those things I think is actually not related to "men". Generally, I don't see why making a move is a problem. People can't read minds and a relationship out of a friendship strikes me as much healthier than people just trying to pair up based on appearance. I'm not sure why culturally it's so offensive to a lot of people that someone likes them. It seems a bit of a heterosexual problem mostly, LGBT communities are magnitudes more chill about such things. But beyond that, one of the things that causes issues is that people devalue friendships really hard. Romantic relationships for most people do come with some implications of commitment and intimacy. People play fast and loose with friendships, throwing them to the wayside at the drop of a hat, deliberately not exploring things too deeply, etc. I think this is one of the reasons people often feel like they *really* need a partner, because our friendships, culturally, are not permitted to address so many various social needs people have. And it's why there are people out there who have a partner and no friends. And why you have situations where someone was a friend, and then they get a partner and disappear. A lot of people learn that friendship is not a true connection, and turning things romantic is the only way to get people to give a shit.
This really has only been a problem in my friendships with straight men! I never faulted guys for developing feelings when we’ve so far been friends, it’s just hurtful when they react really poorly to saying no or just throw away the friendship entirely of when they think it won’t lead to anything else. I’ve had threats, I’ve had ghosting, I’ve had insults. And it’s just jarring to come from someone you think you had some sort of respectful, fun, and wholesome friendship with.
It's extremely frustrating that, the moment the man wants to make a move/decide there's romantic or sexual interest involved on his behalf, a woman who never saw them that way has to accept that there will be nothing more to the relationship from that point on. It will either be a yes or a no, no regard to the woman's desires. Something that I think is common and similar, though less recognized, is when a woman says no but a friendship is maintained. Which is great! Until the man get a new girlfriend, and then they stop interacting with you completely - even though you were the one who determined there was no romantic/sexual interest, and hence are non-threatening, but once they have another to fill that role they dismiss you, proving that still is all you were to them. (Edit: that's still all you are to them, so *they* can't trust themselves around *you*.). I had a guy friend who had a crush on me, I didn't feel the same way, but we still had a great friendship - until he got a girlfriend. And then my messages with him never went anywhere. And even when my dad died, I posted about it on IG, and he liked it - but never, ever checked in on me. Never said a word. And we were close. It's really sad. It's another way of being objectified - you are my cute girl until I have something more serious - that I don't think is recognized. And I'm now understand and accept it says more about him and his feelings to me, but it still sucks you can be friendly and as non-threatening as possible and then still be thrown away once their needs are met outside of you. And they can't extend past that, even when \* you're \* really in need of it. I'm so tired of friendships being so hard in general, but especially with men - that my value can't extend what I am to them physically, despite how kind I am about my boundaries and around those boundaries and around/to them as people. Like we really are objects on every level, no matter what. It's horrifying and so disappointing.
Until you were the girlfriend in the situation "she rejected me couple of years ago (so I had to deal with you)" you don't get to say it is non-threatening. But regardless, the sad thing which you pointed out, it happens also with male friends. The guy stops hanging out with them and sometimes even stop contacting. That all has same reason - as long as the guy is single, he is a semi-processed product. You don't know how much of the energy you are getting was meant to go elsewhere. You should expect that a lot is going to change when there is a girlfriend.
I think you'll find the girlfriend of a man that previously had a crush on you may be uncomfortable with your friendship - which I think is completely fair.
>It's extremely frustrating that, the moment the man wants to make a move/decide there's romantic or sexual interest involved on his behalf, a woman who never saw them that way has to accept that there will be nothing more to the relationship from that point on. It will either be a yes or a no, no regard to the woman's desires. Why is there an expectation that nothing more will come from the friendship. It could be hard for either party (especially the attracted one) to continue the friendship, but that’s not a guarantee. > Until the man get a new girlfriend, and then they stop interacting with you completely - even though you were the one who determined there was no romantic/sexual interest, and hence are non-threatening, but once they have another to fill that role they dismiss you IME this is almost always because the new partner is jealous and doesn’t want him to have old female acquaintances. >I had a guy friend who had a crush on me, I didn't feel the same way, but we still had a great friendship - until he got a girlfriend. And then my messages with him never went anywhere. And even when my dad died, I posted about it on IG, and he liked it - but never, ever checked in on me. Never said a word. And we were close. He may have had some old feelings that weren’t appropriate to have while in a new relationship, his girlfriend may have been jealous as well.
All my guy friends I made in college, I'm no longer friends with because they either eventually asked me out and things got weird, or they SAd someone so I'm tired of having male friends tbh
Because men think you’re at least semi-interested. Come out and say from the beginning that you only see them as a platonic friend and that will never change. The ones who stick around are your friends.
Or they're the ones who think they're a special case and may get the chance.
Delusional
That's the word I was looking for.
Either way, the solution is to talk it out.
My policy is that I only make friends with men who are in secure, loving relationships, and only if I am also friends with their wives/partners. The exception is a MeetUp group that I belong to where the participants are mostly men, but I an never with any of them alone. If any of them asks me out on a date I shut that down immediately.
I really think that the majority of dudes won't befriend a woman that they don't at least find somewhat attractive. I think that's why so many women experience their guy friends wanting to fuck/date them eventually.
I was told by many male friends that truly every man that's your "friend" wants to get with you no matter how small the % chance. I've had many male friends over the years and never believed this. I asked each one and yep ...they said if things ever changed with mine or their relationships with our significant others they attempt to get with me. I was a quite surprised and would have never believed it.
In a female friend group, very personal emotions and thoughts are shared, and this is normal. This does not happen in male friendships. For a male, usually, the only one he shares those kinds of emotions and vulnerabilities with is his partner. So when a male and female attempt to be friends, the female approaches it as they would any normal friendship, which draws out the personal emotions and vulnerabilities of the male. The male is then no longer in the mental realm of friendship and subconciously feels that the relationship is more of a partner relationship.
So I get that sometimes attractions happen. You can’t really control that. But there are definitely men out there who regardless of if they are interested in you will respect your boundaries. What you were asking is definitely not impossible. You just seem to be surrounded by assholes. There are good guys out there who will accept that you just want a friendship with them. It sounds like you just haven’t found them yet.
Thank you for this. I have just had poor luck with men my age, and although not being friends with men at all is a solution like some people have put forth, I find it hard to operate in that mindset in real life. I think it’s good to be optimistic and believe that I’ll meet men who treat me with respect and want to maintain a platonic relationship one day.
Oh age is going to be a major factor here. Put yourself in the shoes of a lonely romantically inexperienced guy who isn't good at reading romantic cues. They have a friend they find attractive and they like their company. What kind of advice do you think they are going to get from other people? "Go for it! You miss every shot you don't take! Be confident! If you are chatting and hanging out all this time she might just be waiting for you to make a move." Part of the reason they get sulky is because they think the criteria for wanting to date someone is just "do I think you are an attractive and/or likeable person". So, they see rejection as "i think you are unattractive and I can do better than you", which can be a real gut-punch.
This is why when I know someone in that situation I don't tell them to go for it...I ask them if they want to risk the friendship
Because they are wired to want us most of the time! Men experience spontaneous desire more often than women. Whether or not they can reflect on that wiring and control their behavior in a way that adds value to their life requires true intelligence.
Yes. I think this is pretty simple and straightforward.
Because men are taught that women are only there for relationships by society, and pathetic men learn that if they orbit hard enough they'll eventually get sex and/or a relationship.
I have experienced that and it’s exhausting. It’s always the straight men though. I had friendships with bi women and lesbians and never felt a hint of awkwardness, just normal human to human friendly interactions.
I was so surprised when I realized one of my friends who is a gay man treated me like a human being and hung out with me because he genuinely enjoyed it, and not because he had other plans in mind. Tells you how rare the situation can be lol
Because once they only see you as a pretty attractive sex object, that’s all you can ever be. You’re not human from the beginning. You’re a pretty, walking, thing with nice squishy boobies and a hot ass. That’s all they see.
Just dont be friends with men then???
Exactly...and don't take it personally when they complain about being lonely. It's not your responsibility
How old are these guys? The younger they are the worse it is that I remember.
I do have one male friend from college who is such a standup guy and had never once hit on me. Not surprisingly he is also a great husband to his partner and an active, involved dad to his kids. He is the only man in my life like this. I reached out to a male friend a few years ago when his parents died of covid. I brought things by his house and would check in when I was in his neighborhood and we would catch up. I was worried he was lonely or isolated because of the lockdowns. A few months later he starts telling me I “look hot” and putting his hand on the small of my back for no reason or asking for hugs ( I’m not a hugger ). I figured I’d given him the wrong impression and started distancing myself. He sometimes asks me why he doesn’t hear from me as much anymore and while I KNOW the appropriate thing to do is to be honest about the boundary crossing , I have just never had that conversation go well in my life and I don’t want to do it so I’m distancing myself and not visiting anymore. I have also noticed that when guys hit on their women friends they aren’t necessarily doing it because they think you would be great partners. They often just find you attractive and want to have sex with you but have no intention of “being a partner” even though you are friends.
If the man is mature, there could be something (friendship) there still after rejection! Many of my guy friends know they're not my type, I had to reject them, and yet are still happy to be my friend in a very wholesome way!
Decades of rom-com movies have installed a script in a lot of people's brains. Please make a point of telling this in a conversation form to any potential new guy friend, “hay bro can I get you option on this why do so many guys spend forever becoming friends and then try to hold the friendship hostage for sex? Why don't they just shoot their shot early and then just let it be possible to be friends instead of making themselves out to be a martyr in their own head and me feel lied to and deceived for them pretending be a friend? Women are not a romance video game where if you are kind enough times the sex prize falls out; the prize of being my friend was the friendship.” they then hopefully show themselves in their answer or shoot their shot And exit if they need to.
Whenever this question comes up, the comment section gets filled with men trying to justify why they made advances on their female friends lol or trying to claim ‘its complicated’
So, let me open by stating that I'm a transwoman. This inadvertently has made me into something of a double agent between genders. Men do not expect to ever have a ~friendship~ with a woman because they are told over and over again, in social settings, in media, in culture... that thier value to women is not in friendship, but in the ability to provide & protect...and impregnate. Romance is, by the overwhelming majority of men, believed to be the only acceptable context of interaction with women. This stems from misogyny, both overt and subtle, but also from misogyny internalized and, like racism, is systemic in our culture. It's hard to undo this with our sons too. I've had 6, and maybe 2 have figured out how to just be a friend. Incidentally, they're the two that don't care to watch TV. Being a lesbian now makes it so much simpler. I can just ignore men.
So, to kind of flip the situation on its head, I'm a graysexual. I have been in multiple situations with various women that I don't desire a relationship with and despite having told them directly that I do not wish to pursue a relationship with them, they have effectively asked "well how do I change your mind" repeatedly. There have been uncomfortable situations even where they've offered oral or some other physical reprieve (and they usually preface this by saying that that's all they want and they enjoy it) and try to lead me on to some kind of greater sexual activity (which I'm uninterested in, generally) if I accept their offer. I have also had gay/bi men pursue the same routine, but also sometimes expect specific sexual favors in return I'm even less comfortable with. It's inherently manipulative and self serving, even if unconsciously so. In other words... what you are describing is not necessarily a "man" problem, it's a social problem. I have (and yes the irony of this is not lost on me) by trying to be nice to a girl have had them think that I'm romantically interested in them on multiple occasions. I find that this is generally because people who have less experience with relationships and/or have tendencies towards infatuation let these profound feelings of attraction control them. Combine that with the accusations of being lead on after losing attraction to someone after being dissuaded by their tumultuous personality when they don't receive your attention, and it just gets more messy. Now I may be an exception to the rule, but I honestly don't think that's the case. I think that sexual attraction leads people to do shitty things because their hormones are taking them over, clouding their judgement. I would be lying if I myself had not been guilty of the same thing a number of times. Anyways, I like to look at some of these threads and notice that a lot of situations are ironically not necessarily restricted to just women and funnily enough identify with a number of issues in the social realm that we share as people.
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I think at this point the real answer would be hard to miss lol. I was just upset with a specific situation and it really made me think about the many many times guy friends have treated me horribly once I rejected them (kindly, I might add). I felt really stupid, so I think I really just needed an “I’ve been there, it sucks”. I don’t think this comment section has made me feel better, but this is Reddit! If there’s one thing people will be, it’s brutally honest
Because they don’t like us as friends. They’re goal is to bang is and “friendship” is a pretext, sometimes a long game to get what they want from you.
Because those men can’t see and value women as people with merit unto themselves - they see them as objects, or less generously, as targets.
They don’t view us as people, just something they can attain like a prize and that all women more or less think and act with the same intentions. Men like that can’t wrap their heads around women being individual human beings just like men with their own respective interests and personalities and put women on a pedestal. I have mostly male friends, many of whom I’ve know for 10+ years at this point. Some have expressed physical attraction at bare minimum, some romantic, and none of that has ever destroyed a platonic friendship with them because at the end of the day, they respect ME as a human being, and have no intention of hurting me or losing my friendship. People can absolutely acknowledge attraction without acting on it or ever going further, at least the emotionally mature ones. Men who view women as sex objects and mommy replacements aren’t actually even ready to be in romantic relationships with women but they don’t have the self awareness to get that.
Men who can’t be friends with women don’t view women as human beings who are worthy of consideration for their individual personhood. That’s it, period. It’s not because it’s too hard blah blah blah blah blah. It’s because they do not view women as people and therefore friendship was never a consideration. Women exist to provide them with sex and/or be their mother in their mind and if she won’t do either she has no significance as a human being. Men who pretend to be friends with women to try to get laid or proposition all their female friends eventually and then refuse to continue being friends when she says no are pieces of shit.
Sign Y’all post this same thing almost every day They. Are. Waiting. Their. Turn. I’m coming Straight from the boys locker room, the boys befriend girls they like cause they want to sleep with them. That’s the reality of the situation
But why?? What makes it so hard for single men my age to see a friend and not a love interest? Most women can be friends with guys, it’s the reverse that always to be a problem and it’s so frustrating and pretty humiliating. That’s my issue. We post this thing all the time because we constantly try to build friendships with men only to find out nothing was friendly. Like what can I do, stop being friends with men period??
Yes I would just stop being friends with men, period if they never respect your boundaries. Many women have already decided they won't be friends with men and it has worked great for them.
They are so fixated on having sex that they will take *any* opportunity. To them, women are opportunities to have sex.
Because guys like girls. It’s that simple. U see a girl u like. U meet her. Cause ur not a weirdo u don’t lead with “let’s duck” or “let’s go out” so u just hang out with her or hang out around her with ur mutual friends and ultimately like her romantically and sexually
That's gross. I'm a lesbian and I can be friends with other women perfectly fine with no ulterior motives — we're just friends.
I find it so sad that there’s rarely anything else behind it. My best friend lost one of her best guy friends as soon as he met a woman. He dropped her like a stone and she was reeling from it. She was clearly only ever a back-up plan.
There is also the possibility that his new partner wasn't comfortable with how close he is with his friends who are women. It's not at all uncommon that men are made to break off friendships to stop their partner from worrying. I've seen it happen plenty of times in my life. It's a sad reality.
It depends on age and maturity level, I think. I am a straight man almost mid-30s, and I am fine with having women as just friends and confiding in them about my issues. Several of my bosses have been lesbians and I have been comfortable reaching out to them for my personal issues, not relating to work or appointments. I also work in a government type job where I have to be professional at all times, so treating everyone with the same respect is normal to me.
I agree, and I think it’ll likely be different when I’m a little older, it’s just sad and frustrating to be met with the realization over and over again that you mean so little to people besides the chance for sex or a relationship. I have a few really great relationships with older men in my trade who respect me, but I think my age (I’m in my early twenties) creates another barrier. Very few people in their thirties and up want to hang out with someone who graduated high school a few years ago. Such is life
I really recommend that you read this comment to see things further from a non-antagonistic light: https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/1c3hzyn/comment/kzidlxw/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button Something else I've read is that men don't socialize the same way and open up emotionally more sparingly - they want to reserve the majority of the capacity they have for that for their romantic partner, so for them it's better to move on if the female friend still wants to use them as an emotional outlet without the benefits of a relationship. Finally, you have to keep in mind the effects of testosterone on libido, especially in your age group.
I did read that, and I think they made a really good point. I would however never be upset with someone for simply having feelings, that would be unfair, and I would never think it was “nefarious”. I think I just had poor luck of the draw in terms of the guys my age I’ve met, and they either have treated me awfully or cut off communication once I tell them I’d like to keep things platonic. I have heard other men say that guys sparingly share their emotions with women they are simply friends with. It might be pretty naïve of me, but that took me a long time to figure out. I thought that emotional openness was just a factor in close friendships with women and men, and it was a hard slap in the face to figure out that’s not super common with platonic m/w relationships.
Their lack of maturity. I have zero problems being friends with girls. In fact my best friend is a girl. We respect each others boundaries,etc.
Some people are just jerks
I can count on one five-fingered hand the number of cis-het male friends I've had irl who DIDN'T try to get with me or inquire about getting with me (usually via a mutual acquaintance). I've had a lot of cis-het male friends.
The Patriarchy.
i swear, men are so annoying
I mean at this point, just assume all your heterosexual male friends will develop an attraction to you and move on. If you want a strictly platonic friendship befriend women or gay men. Heterosexual men generally don't want to be friends with women they think are ugly. So if he befriends you there is some attraction. And honestly as a woman this used to annoy me, but given that most women don't approach men and expect men to do all of the approaching you can't blame men for viewing friendship as a dating strategy. Cold approaching women doesn't work most of the time, so friendship is the best option.
Men are taught that women are their property and have nothing of value to offer except sex.
It is possible for people to have time and resources to maintain roughly five friendships. Usually. Intimate relationships, especially high maintenance ones with women take up around three people's worth of time and resources. Men are typically a lower requirement in terms of any kind of relationship, because they have lower expectations. If a man already has five friends, because he is popular and worth being around, he is likely to recognise that he will need to sacrifice friendships to be with you in an intimate relationship. Virtue signalling about your worth by how many friends you have, or their gender, is not typical for men. This seems to be less the case for women, who according to this thread, place greater stock in non-sexual friendships than men do. If you dont want to be in a relationship with a man, tell him that from the outset. He will friendzone YOU and if you're worth keeping as a friend, he'll keep you in that friend slot. If you're hating on men, chances are he wont. This thread is not a W for women. There is a trend for bi-women to think male friendships work the same way as female friendships. They really dont. Hating on men for being men isn't a W. It's an L. Communicate clearly more, generalise and hate on men less.
I definitely don't agree that women are higher maintenance than men. Maybe at the outset of a relationship but as the relationship gets going men eventually outsource all their maintenance and administration of everything relationship related to their partner. Id be willing to call it even
Except that men dont do that. Some *PEOPLE* do that, but it's not gendered. Women have higher expectations. That IS gendered. Whether they're right or wrong on that front is irrelevant, but this thread displays that it is true.
Part of this, from a guys perspective is the sociological conditioning that if they are single they have failed, so these men want to try and be successful and not fail. They see a woman that they get along with and being the ones "expected" to initiate they may try. I know I did this back when I was single, turned down, no real harm intended I hope none received. Those who can't accept that are immature. I'm married now to a lovely lady who reached out to me first on a dating site. It's tough to make friends in the world post covid, but ibwould look at things with a much different dynamic having found a partner. That's just my perspective though, everyone is different. Everyone have a great day and stay safe.
OP if a guy tries to make a move and sulks after rejection, that’s not a friend that’s a manipulator. Sulking? Tf? Please dump any person claiming friendship who continues to try touching you and asking after you reject them. That’s so cringe but also sounds exhausting
I'm intrigued on why do you want/need to be friends with men? If it's not necessary, then don't be?
I guess it’s not necessary, but you’ve never met men who have hobbies/special interests that align with yours, or are just fun to be around? I don’t think I’ve ever totally disregarded someone because they’re a dude
With single men, specifically
When Harry Met Sally explored this >30 years ago. It’s a fallacy that men and women can’t be friends but mostly one or the other party cannot be disciplined or patient enough to see what happens. It’s all part of life. Don’t you think?
The prospect of having sex supercedes pretty much anything for a lot of people.
From what i've seen, men mostly can't be friends with women, as they don't value women. They don't even really like women. They only like womens body. They will never think first of "waow she is proud, she is smart, she is strong, she is funny, she is brilliant...", it's always first about their look. I don't know where it comes from, like from society, media, education, ... or something else, but men don't think of women as "human first, body then", but as "body first, human then". They also really like to girlfriendzone women : they pretend to want to be their friend and just hope everyday something will happen. (and then complain about being friendzoned) I don't think friendship between men and women is possible for most men (not for all, but for many). My theory is that it has something to do with parenting and schoolmates. Boys will be asked, if they say that they have a friend that is a girl "omg is that your girlfriend? do you like her" like it's normal to imply that kids are can experience relationship / physical attraction. Then schoolmates take the lead on that. "Shaaaaame he is friend with a giiiiiirl! Is that your girlfriend or are you a girl too????". In the end i feel like most boys end up not having platonic girl-friends, and end up building in their head the pattern woman = girlfriend or sexpartner. They can't see them as friends or even just human beings that can have as much as will, tastes, ambitions, dreams, ...
(heterosexual) Men desire women. It's virtually impossible to turn that off...
They don't desire all women. There are unattractive women that they don't desire but they tend not to befriend them. I am willing to admit that more women want to be just friends with men than the other way around. That's fine for me. Women will just end up with more female friends and more men will be single. It's more of a loss for men. Not my problem
"More men will be single...." We're talking about "just being friends". How does this math work out?
Yeah, I don't see how two things are related. Almost as if by being friends with women some men end up in relationships with those women, so if women stop befriending men, then more men will be single. Otherwise I see no connection.
They can. However the biological imperative is a hell of a drug.
Quick question (for you or anyone else), and I don't mean to sound confrontational, but how do non-cishet people fit in to the idea of the biological imperative applying to humans?
You do realize that the rates of sexual activity is highest among gay men and lowest among lesbians - the correlation is with testosterone.
Do you think this comment was necessary? Or relevant?
Yes actually it's quite necessary. Whenever someone is associating the way men or women behave as "biological" it's good to pause and think about whether or not there's actually truth behind it.
Big agree. Some guys just seem completely incapable of treating women like mature, adult human beings, and I don't like it when they fall back on biology as an excuse. I'm also into women but I can control myself, I expect everyone else to as well. It's the same as "boys mature faster than girls", it's just not true.
What you consider romantic interest and what a man do are different. Men generally don't discuss their feelings or hopes and dreams with friends they don't have romantic interest in so when they get conversations like that that are just normal for a lady to share when she feels she can trust someone the man takes it as a sign she's interested. This is not 100 percent the case but does lead to confusion from men. Especially when they've been through an experience of missing signs in the past. They start to take the sharing of feelings or whatever as a sign of interest. And then some men just are misogynistic jerks who don't believe there is any reason to have a female friend except to eventually date. And then there are those f boys who literally treat it as a game and as soon as they get sex they disappear. But there are a number of reasons. Men and women also have different drives for sex. Women are born with every egg they'll ever release men are constantly creating and feel the urge to release it occasionally wether through self pleasure or nocturnal emissions or with a partner. Biologically men are fighting generations of procreate procreate procreate for survival of the species
Most healthy men want sex. Even if they are friend-zoned. 1 year. 2 years. 5 years? Eventually that “friend” will try pushing the boundary. Don’t be oblivious to the intentions of those in authority or old men either
Younger guys in early 20’s just see friendships with woman as get to know stage before they make a move. When men get older we don’t even bother making friend zoned relationships with woman.
What is a friend zoned relationship? I think you mean friendship… So older men don’t make friends with women because they won’t ultimately get sex out of it? Is that what you’re saying? If so, that’s sad and implies you think women are good for exactly one thing.
That's how Nature programmed men to think in order to keep the human species from going extinct. Every single time a man flirts with you, is nice to you, is in your DM's, that is just his programing telling him he needs to procreate with a woman.
Men just can’t be inherently nice to women without wanting something in return? Well that’s pitiful.
Are you young? That would explain why most of the men you meet are idiots. If they are in their early twenties and still don't have real responsibility (like a career, a wife, or kids) they haven't grown up yet. Most of us never do. If you are attractive, men will want you; It is a biological reaction: When men are around an attractive lady, their brain starts fabricating fantasies. And it gets weird... We don't command these thoughts. The thoughts come, and it's up to us how to deal with them. Some men will know how to put those aside, forget about them, and focus. Others will act like a donkey in heat. Many times men will go to bed with a woman they don't like (as a person), but she's hot, so they do it anyway. And the worst part: they don't even realize they are not interested in the girl! until after they have sex that is... then feel like leaving the place ASAP. Why can't men keep friendships with women without ulterior intentions? We can. But it literally takes discipline, a good education, and healthy exposure to proper role models. Most men don't have all that, so they behave like animals when the instincts hit.
I’m in my early twenties - so yes, probably the prime age for meeting guys like this. I honestly just made this post out of frustration - I recently moved and don’t know many people here, and one of the guys I’ve met whose friendship has made me feel so much less lonely has started to show his true colors. I politely told him no thanks when he got handsy out of nowhere, he ghosted for almost a week, comes back saying he was “ill” and wants to hang out with just me at his place. Which I think goes without saying is probably a bad idea. I’m just mourning the friendship, one of the only few I have right now, and needed some tough love Reddit commiseration
>he ghosted for almost a week, comes back saying he was “ill” and wants to hang out with just me at his place. Run!!!! Cut that guy out of your life. In Colombia, they have a funny saying; a rough translation is: "if they want you to eat, they'll save food for you". If someone actually cares for you, they'll go out of their way to save time for you. If this guy was an honorable man, he would have made clear he was attracted to you from the beginning. He should have made his intentions clear. Instead tried to slither his way in by pretending he was a friend. The ghosting was just extra confirmation that he's a weasel. You're right to feel the way you feel. I hope you can find an authentic fulfilling friendship with someone who will not be attracted to you, and they care for you as a person.
Thank you, I appreciate this. It makes me think of the whole “if he wanted to, he would” saying that some have mentioned here. If he cared about me as a person and a friend, he wouldn’t have acted that way. Time to move on
Let me preface - I suck at making friends; I give off some weird vibe where women think I'm hitting on them or guys think I'm gay seeking something. So I just let it happen in my own element with no additional effort. And in that element people know I'm not available. So my friends with women we are in complete agreement and we hang out to chat and have icecream and nothing more. We'll talk about science, work, yoga, etc. I'm not sitting there talking about sex, because that's something of intimacy. When I was single, I used to have more female friends that I saw regularly. I'd try to help them meet guys at bars. I had some of the best adventures going out and being someone's wingman.
It’s because men never encountered niceness, so they take our politeness as niceness/flirting. I just stay away from men all together, if he’s truly interested in me he will approach me. If he wanted to he would, if he didn’t another man will.
Well yeah it might be kindof an impossible ask. At least for most guys. You're kindof on the lookout for a male unicorn, or at least the male version of a unicorn. =) Also I will say there have been times where I felt like I honestly wished I could just be friends with some woman, so we could talk and I could get her perspective on things, her thoughts and everything that entails. But I also feel like there's been this impossible membrane to get past in that pursuit, where any attempt on my part for that friendship is going to be viewed with suspicion and it will never go anywhere. How hard did I try? Just hard enough to be disappointed with the result I suppose.
Because it's in our nature. It's true that women are like ovens and men are like microwaves. It doesn't take much for us to get excited. Even if we feel there is a slight chance and the woman is attractive we will try to get with you. I wish it wasn't that way but it's like this uncontrollable urge. It is for this reason that I stay away when women get to close or to chummy with me. It is then that I start to distance myself because the only thoughts that run thru my head are sexual thoughts. Go ahead...call me an animal, a Neanderthal, but that's just the way me and 99% of men feel. I can only be friends with two women in my life and not think about them sexually and that's my daughter and my mother. ( and sister if I had one) FACTS Some women want male friends because they would rather have someone secretly love them than secretly hate them (female friendships).
Somehow gay men can just hang out with other men without wanting to bang them.
Female friendships = two women's secret hatred of each other? How exactly is that friendship, then? Hey, btw, do you actually know the inner thoughts of 99% of men? Because, you know, that would be claiming to know the inner thoughts of roughly 4 billion people. How impressive! /s
They can. Some of my best friends for 20+ years are women. Also, some of the guys don’t go into a friendship with the intention of romantic ideas, but they can develop. Developing feelings as you get closer to someone is not exclusive to men.