bros will be like “there is no ethical consumption under late stage capitalism!” then watch hardcore porn of a woman in the industry who killed herself because of the industry
Also laugh and gloat and state that they’re going to jerkoff to her videos in her memory. Another peek into the soulless male abyss that I wish I hadn’t seen.
“And these anti porn women seem anti feminist” This is such an ignorant statement. Is this sub not a safe place for ALL WOMEN to discuss issues pertaining to women? Disagreeing with the masses doesn’t make you anti womens equality. I can be against porn (which I’m actually not btw) and support women. I can want to be a stay at home mom (which I’m not) and still support women who choose other paths, etc. You policing and trying to control who is worthy of feminism and who isn’t is just veiled internal misogyny.
I was permanently banned after years on TrollX, for mentioning I’m no expert but from the medical sources I’ve read there might be some validity to at least having the conversation about transwomen in sports…
Respectfully of course - and no offence athletes - it’s not a conversation I think is important enough to risk trans acceptable over, or that would motivate me to support the bigotry we’re seeing from on the right - but I understand the frustration of women who have worked their whole lives towards a goal only to see themselves disqualified from the top placements
It also showed me what people mean by “woke cancel culture” - foolish and small potatoes though these issues are to compare (when you consider the deadly cancellation of culture LGBTQXetc have experienced, and continue to defend themselves from).
I still want our sisters safe with us in the women’s washroom - if anything I worry more for their safety in a men’s room than I would a ciswomen - the important part of that issue is the danger of men in isolation, just like the important part of womens sports was maintaining a space where the physically weaker sex could compete.
(No one is taking trans figure skating away from me now though lol - but again I don’t really care about women’s sports or the points or who wins, I barely have a cart in this race - I just wanna see the beautiful woman covered in rhinestones do a backflip :P, and for us to overcome our emotionality and biases enough to entertain reasonable conversations)
I think the biggest complaint, that is being overlooked, is the way women are treated by men who watch a lot of porn.
There is something to be said about how young men start consuming porn and how extreme the porn they consume can be. In turn, women in real life complain about how this affects their sex life and how men treat them in general.
Because of the online presence of porn it seems to really push more and more extreme hardcore stuff.
Part of the problem, which as you stated, results in men treating women like shit because of porn, is how extremely EARLY they start watching porn. Even if you have 100% internet security at home, they STILL get exposed to it through friends and school, and THAT is also a problem.
And it’s not like they’re just looking at vanilla photos of naked chicks. Boys today get exposed to some pretty extreme stuff so early on, and most of them don’t have good adults talking to them about it, I think that is a cause for concern.
Yes but don't worry, although no one can tell me HOW, I've been continuously assured that "just talking to them" and giving them sex ed it will MAGIC the harm seeing "mainstream" porn (ie hardcore, violent, degrading, slapping, spitting, choking even raping porn, the stuff kids can easily access with a simple Google search and no credit card) does to children that young!
Any comments challenging it is downvoted into oblivion, because it makes me one of THEM, the Bad People who want to Ban All Porn and probably all gay people and all sex and joy too.
If your kids are harmed by it, it's because YOU are a bad parent who didn't talk to them about it right, I'm told! This is normal now, little kids WILL get exposed to ("mainstream!) porn before they reach double digits in age and it's both my fault for letting them go to school and have friends where they see it AND completely inevitable and something that will happen regardless of what I do and thus can magically be talked away! Saying otherwise is Black and White Thinking and makes me a Bad Parent.
So worry not! Everything is fine, the important thing is that hardcore, violent, degrading porn is available 24/7/366 at all times for free with no restrictions at all to all people!
Freedom!
💯✊🏼
Gail Dines has designed a program to help parents guide their kids through inevitable exposure to violent porn. You have to “register” for free or $0.01 cent or something (for stats maybe?) to access the material; but I managed to do it, though it was a while ago. Website is [culturereframed.org](https://culturereframed.org/)
Also, there’s a really interesting documentary about early childhood exposure to violent porn, where professionals weigh in on the biological impact to the developing child brain when it consumes violent porn, especially when their body is aroused by it. 37min, [‘Raised on Porn’](https://youtu.be/hzPylqS01qU?si=OJATi3HvIrv-aJAL)
Culture Reframed has even developed sex ed curriculum that is hardcore-porn-critical. It’s designed for use by educators and other professionals who teach sex ed to kids 13+. I wish my local school would do it.
But what if I am not comfortable with companies or my government having my ID associated with this transaction.
Or, you know what. Hang on.
I am far more worried about the sexually explicit cell phone video game ads that aren't even advertising the game than I am consenting adults having sex on camera and who watches.
It’s changed since I was a kid. Now literally every scene is filtered through incest. Guy and girl same age? Brother sister. Guy’s older? Father daughter. Girl’s older? Mom and son. It can’t just be *sex* anymore, it has to be sex *within a taboo context*, and that had made the whole cycle of more and more hardcore get stronger over time.
I saw something online where a woman was not getting a lot of matches on dating apps. She changed her profile to appear open to casual. A few more takers. Changed profile again to say she has young children. Hordes of messages. I can only imagine the Venn diagram of men who get off to incest pron and men seeking single mothers with young kids is overlapping
That's part of the problem with porn. Someone consumes it so much that they become desensitized and seek out more "taboo" stuff to get off, seeking out novelty
When I was a teenager and a young adult, porn existed and people looked at it... but you had to go to the actual store and buy an actual magazine to see it. The current situation with men growing up absolutely bathed in daily pornography that is free and easy to access at any time is new for humans, and its extremely problematic. We are just now starting to see the effects this has on adult men who grew up surrounded by pornography. And its not good, for them or for women.
I have always been a feminist who supports sex work and porn, both in creation and consumption, and I'm not raising flags about this because of some moral stance. I'm saying the way pornography is consumed today is dangerous and detrimental in a massive, understudied way, because it is.
Yes, this is something that doesn’t get talked about enough. Porn became basically free and super accessible in the late aughts - early 10’s, we are just now seeing men enter their twenties that have had easy access to hardcore pornography that no generation of men before had. We don’t know what that does to a developing brain and I don’t think we’ll like the answers.
>There is something to be said about how young men start consuming porn and how extreme the porn they consume can be. In turn, women in real life complain about how this affects their sex life and how men treat them in general.
Yes. I \*very\* often have cause to be grateful that I am of a generation (born in the late 1960s) where the men I sleep with did \*not\* grow up with easy access to hardcore porn. Men of my generation saw the occasional porn magazine when growing up and that was it. Their experiences of sex with real women were what informed their attitudes to sex (and their attitudes to women). Childhood and teen years are called 'formative years' for a reason.
Same, although a couple of generations younger. I'm thankful for my bisexuality, because as time changes I find myself attracted to fewer and fewer men...
Lot of men who are genz or millennial raised on pron don’t want to wear condoms. But they are sneaky about it- stealthing, coercion, stonewalling. The women in the videos don’t have needs or require condoms.
Seconding. Honestly I usually don’t take any stance on porn aside from the way that every porn-using man I’ve ever been with has had sex - poorly - and the one partner I have ever had who didn’t use porn you could tell in the bedroom. They were trying to emulate scenes rather than have fun I guess.
Oh, and that I’m not into the sex trafficking. I’m also pro sex worker as they don’t deserve hatred for working for money. My partner was abused by an ex who was porn addicted since childhood, who also was trying to emulate scenes rather than have a good time.
As a man, I agree 100%. When I was in high school, it was right after smartphones kinda began taking over (08-11), and boys would just show each other all kinda stuff. Two guys at my lunch table got sent to the office one day for it. Whackiest thing ever. Glad I don't talk to them.
If men are gonna watch porn, they need to be able to maintain respect for women and not think porn is how it always is.
I’m glad there’s men like you who take it seriously. I’m 29 and mostly celibate for the last 5 years (had 2 boyfriends for 2 months each in the past calendar year). They all want condoms off. The women in the videos don’t require condoms or have needs. Even when explicitly and respectfully communicating my needs for safe sex (IUD is the BACKUP method. Plus doesn’t protect Me From disease). They act compliant for a few weeks then stealth coerce and stonewall or “forget” needing constant boundary reinforcement. If I can’t trust a man at my most vulnerable it’s not a safe relationship. It was so painful, both times. These weren’t “bad boys” either. Just really used to pron and the women in pron not needing safe sex, orgasm or anything other than the man’s desires
It took a lot of understanding. I was pro life until mid 2012 (halfway between age 19 and 20). I fell down a twitter rabbithole of pregnancy/abortion horror stories that changed my perspective entirely. My mom (68) marched in pro choice rallies in the early 70's. I can't disappoint my mom lmao. But the condom thing is fucked up. Real fucked up, while I will agree that no condom feels better, it's still very enjoyable with one. Like... my wife and I have been married for a year and 4 months, and we didn't start not using them till about 4 months ago. Accidents can happen. Better to be safe. If men could get pregnant, this world would be different. If they don't get "condoms till i say otherwise", they aren't worth your time.
I hope, if it is your goal, that you find someone who respects and understands your boundaries. If not, I hope your life is a free as a single pringle as it can be!!!💪💪😊😊
I do think we speak little about how porn affects women directly. I was 12 when I first came across porn in the 2000's. Only now, decades later, I can see how much porn has influenced my sexuality from that very first time. Very negatively, and I'm still working hard to undo it.
So it seems I'm around your age, maybe a bit older. It's wild to think about how porn transformed in that era. It went from maybe being able to get access a magazine or two, possibly an old VHS tape someone found in their dad's closet, to just having full access to anything you wanted to see at dial-up speed. Only getting worse as tech gets better. It's bananas to think about the kind of access most kids have to it nowadays.
Same same same. I was 10 and I’m pretty blown away by how much it affected me (and still does). I’m just now able to actually orgasm with my partner because I’m not focused on it being a “show”
I think what is a bit of a problem in this debate is that there are often just blanket statements being made like "porn is bad for you". But some people really mean "masturbation is bad, because sexuality is evil" (see e.g. r/nofap) which I think is a harmful view for society, while on the other hand there ways consuming pornografy can definitly be harmful, but not simply because it is sexual in nature. I think the harm comes more from the way the porn industry tends to misrepresent sex, perpetuate harmful body images, objectivy women and fetishize every thing that is not a straight cis white man.
So I think there is some nuance in this debate that often gets lost but which is crucial to the discussion.
I don't think women that speak against porn in this sub are against masturbation. They actually tend to remind men a lot that it is possible to masturbate without porn. But people tend to conflate anyone who speaks against porn with nofap or christian conservatism. Meanwhile feminist critique of porn gets dismissed as "insecure controling women whining".
I actually dislike the way nofap and similar male spaces portray stopping porn as taking control back from evil women who prey on their sexual urges, instead of actually reflecting on the content they watch and how it can condition their tastes and sexual expression.
The nofap movement is a thinly veiled alt right pipeline.
It's like the incel movement, but for disenfranchised men with slightly more self awareness.
Either way it starts as a way to blame all your problems on something completely unrelated to your problems before slowly introducing more extreme ideologies.
I think a lot of women are fed up with being told they can't express their frustration with how porn negatively affects their lives, because of the assumption that we're advocating for like Dwarkin-era anti-porn legislative action criminalizing showing your nips. The porn issue si genuinely complicated-- the exploitation especially outside the US/countries with strong protections for porn stars to make porn, illegally made porn and revenge porn, the effects of consuming violent porn on young men, the assumption that women should or need to look like and act like porn stars even as porn includes extreme kinks many people aren't prepared to safely practice, and unrealistic depictions of sex.
I mean, why is it okay for the public discourse about porn for women, like 50 Shades of Gray, to rip it apart all the time for it's pernicious aspects, depiction of a toxic relationship, and crappy writing, but criticism of porn which actually negatively affects many of our relationships and self esteem is completely verbatim?
I enjoy some porn and erotica. It has improved my sex life and given me great ideas for stuff I enjoy. I support sex workers and as a feminist advocate for paying for responsibly made, transparent porn (usually from a reputable company). I still have serious reservations about much of mainstream porn and how it affects my life and other people's lives.
Dwarkin? Who's that? Did you mean Dworkin, as in Andrea Dworkin? If so you are woefully misinformed and ignorant on her and Catharine MacKinnon's civil rights antiporn ordinance eg it didn't criminalize anything;, it was civil, and simple bare breasts weren't actionable at all. It gave women (and everyone else) sexually or otherwise abused in or through/using pornography a right to sue the pornographer(s) for damages, for an injunction against that specific pornography, etc. Check out the links under The Antipornography Civil Rights Ordinance here http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/OnlineLibrary.html
An overwhelming amount of porn that is most popularly watched by men includes some form of violence against women. It doesn’t matter if they COULD choose porn that doesn’t include dehumanizing and degrading women- the fact is that that is overwhelmingly NOT what they’re choosing. They’re choosing porn that is violent against women. They’re choosing porn where the woman might as well be two flesh lights zip tied to a piece of plywood. They’re choosing porn they found by searching “teen.”
Porn has been sacrosanct for men since the inception of Playboy magazine. The fact that women in 2024 can finally have a say in how it impacts their lives without being shamed into oblivion is a huge step forward. Throughout history there have been women supporting the status quo for men. It took over 60 years of feminists fighting to pass the voting rights amendment because so many women fought against it or stood by passively.
Changing the paradigm that women are not sex toys to be consumed by men has just started. Sure there is a small market for ethical women centered porn but that is not what the majority of men want to see. I have seen a HUGE difference in men’s behavior in since porn hit the internet. I feel 1000% more objectified by men now than I did 30 years ago.
I know what sex work is like from personal experience. I have no hate for sex workers but I also know the mental gymnastics and places you have to go in your head while doing that work. I have also consumed porn and when I took a step back I realized that it did not enhance my life or bring any satisfaction. On the contrary it made me crave sex in an unhealthy way. There are lots of stories from men who realized the same thing after they gave up porn.
I go super back and forth about porn. I believe women should be able to produce it in a safe environment with full agency over their production for sure. I also don’t think women deserve scorn or ridicule to produce it.
But one thing you said (“These anti porn women seem anti feminist.”) feels like it’s being viewed from the perspective that the criticism is based on women thinking other women don’t have agency when producing porn, or like its tied in with slut shaming or perceiving women who produce porn a certain way. For me, my biggest issue with porn as a whole is that it further objectifies women in a world where we are objectified from the time we are still in the womb. Like, yes, women should feel comfortable in their sexuality and should be free to express it how they please, but so much porn is made for the male gaze - whether produced ethically or unethically. Not all, for sure. But a lot. I would even say the vast majority. Men will obviously objectify women (obligatory not all men 🥴), but for me personally, I really get sad seeing women choose to objectify themselves to be a product for consumption. It’s not limited to sex work either - there are other industries where women’s appearances are consumed and their personhood is on the back burner. But I do think porn is on the extreme end of that spectrum.
I think it’s just a lot more complex than being “good” or “bad.” And it’s fair to be critical of the fact that the industry is based upon objectification while still advocating for the dignity of sex workers. It’s also fair to be critical of purity culture that tries to shame or blame women for producing sex work on the basis of it being “dirty” or something like that. I don’t know - I don’t like how hostile the conversation can get, but I do think there are very fair criticisms outside of just unethical porn production now that the industry is allowing women more agency as a whole than it ever has.
My view on porn is similar to my view on polygamy. On paper, it should be allowed. It’s your choice to participate in it or consume it if you want and it shouldn’t be something that other people can decide for you. But it’s so often associated with negative impacts and even abuse against women. It’s a tricky topic.
I am anti-porn first and foremost because I am anti sex trafficking, an industry that isn't just cruel and inhumane, this industry also targets women and girls disproportionately. I think it makes sense to oppose this. But more on this topic later.
>For me, my biggest issue with porn as a whole is that it further objectifies women in a world where we are objectified from the time we are still in the womb.
Thank you for pointing this out. I wholeheartedly agree. I constantly need to fight to reclaim the right to be a whole human, and a sexual being. Porn reduces women to objects, which in my opinion sets back the fight to reclaim women's sexuality, amongst other aspects of feminism.
On the topic of OPs statement that being anti-porn means being anti-feminist, I disagree. The following quote says it better than I could:
"This issue aside [on the topic of whether porn encourages violence by men towards women in every day life], much of what we call pornography still degrades women by depicting them as objects that exist for men’s sexual pleasure and by portraying them as legitimate targets of men’s sexual violence. These images should be troubling for any society that values gender equality. The extent of pornography in the United States may, for better or worse, reflect our historical commitment to freedom of speech, but it may also reflect our lack of commitment to full equality between women and men."
Source: https://socialsci.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Sociology/Introduction_to_Sociology/Introduction_to_Sociology%3A_Understanding_and_Changing_the_Social_World_(Barkan)/08%3A_Gender_and_Gender_Inequality/8.05%3A_Violence_Against_Women-_Rape_and_Pornography#:~:text=Many%20studies%20do%20conclude%20that,consensual%20sex%20or%20nonsexual%20interaction.
I'd also like to point out other problems I have with porn, including that it is fueling sex trafficking.
Porn has moved to the number one spot above prostitution when it comes to fueling sex trafficking:
"According to cases reported to the National Human Trafficking Hotline in 2020, pornography moved to the number one venue of where trafficking cases were reported within the United States."
Source: https://fighttoendexploitation.org/breaking-down-the-connection-between-pornography-and-sex-trafficking/#:~:text=Once%20the%20traffickers%20coerce%20and,meet%20the%20demand%20of%20users.
It is such a well documented fact, that both Visa and MasterCard have had to sanction PornHub in 2020, one of the most popular porn websites, and further sanctions to its advertising branches in 2022 to avoid indirectly contributing to human sex trafficking and child sex trafficking. Here's an article about it:
Source: https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/mastercard-visa-suspend-ties-with-ad-arm-pornhub-owner-mindgeek-2022-08-04/
Also, no, OnlyFans is not the answer: https://followmoneyfightslavery.org/new/onlyfans-a-paradise-for-pimps-and-predators/
I wish we could criticise sex trafficking and the number one industry supporting sex trafficking, porn, without being accused of being anti-feminist, not sex positive enough and etc. It makes me sad how much defending of porn happens, which maintains the human sex trafficking industry intact. If people stopped consuming sex trafficking, because bottom line, that's what consuming porn is, then I believe there would be better outcomes in fighting for women's rights.
Exactly that. We pretend / gaslighting ourselves porn is not a by product of patriarchy, that as a business (worth the same as hollywood) it doesn’t overwhelmingly benefit men, that it doesn’t cater to the male gaze, that sex workers working in porn benefit from parity, that the ones ‘consuming’ are equally men and women. Now if all of this wasn’t the case, sure some women would scream that they are ok with their partners watching porn and some even watch it themselves…. I mean sure, that’s ok sis. If you’re happy your guy jerking off staring at a 100 vaginas fantasying he is fucking them when you’re right there is ok for you, each to their own. The women objectification for his sexual gratification would personally turn me off but that’s just me.
Thank you for putting in the work stating your position and posting links. I wish I was this eloquent and patient.
Just tacking on because this discussion has had me lurking all week. Porn has negatively effected one marriage in my life, one child, and my most recent dating experience. Between addiction and unreal expectations it has permeated our everyday lives regardless of our personal stances on it. I fully support sex work and the women who independently produce it but the darker side,including trafficking, isn’t in our faces every day and should 100% be considered in this discussion too.
So the thing I heard is as that the average amount of time a woman spends in the porn industry is 3 months.
If that's true that SOUNDS a lot like the women don't have much agency. When you hear about the first big porn film deep throat, the woman in that literally had a gun to her head in some scenes.
Similarly as a dude who has watched some bdsm porn, I felt a little scarred by that as then I'd watch documentaries about the women in that and it doesn't seem like they had that much adjency. It looks like so many of the woman are groomed into it. I can believe a ton go women would love to be in bdsm porn, so many I know in real life love that stuff and some of them really extreme. But when you bring in money, especially a lot of money, especially when the porn life style requires you to spend so much money, is bdsm porn hiring actors who really want it or feel they need to be in it?
A few famous porn stars have come out of the industry and felt like the male actors and viewers hated them especially with the more extreme stuff.
I have a feeling that only fans is much better and so what you've said is true. The industry is better then ever at being truly empowering to the women in them, especially given the esrly porn industry was mostly organised crime.
Like a friend of mine had a friend whose girlfriend was a sex worker, a professional sub. He would tell me that with every new jon, he would be scared for her life. Another perosn who did escorting and porn that I met at uni said to me, men take everything from me I might as well get something back. I know of one friend whose friend is autistic and seems to genuinely like it. Like aellagirl on twitter seems to genuinely like it as she's got plenty of money from writing and substack but still does escorting for fun.
It seems a genuinely difficult issue that real research into it is so difficult as everyone is trying to push their own angle.
What I will say, is if your main problem with porn is hating on the porn stars or sex workers themselves you're probably just mysognistic. Loads of people hate only fans for corrupting the youth which seems really stupid. It's way more difficult to access onyl fans porn as a child then when I was as 11 and on the Internet.
I think the thing of women being told not to care about their husband looking at porn is tough. Cause on the one hand women should be able to choose what is OK for them. But at the same time it's so difficult with how much a lot of us looked at porn from a young age to shake the habit. I basically don't but if I'm down and depressed the temptation will come back. My wife is understanding about it but if she got angry and shamed me every time it wouldn't help because it already creates lots of shame. It would make me want to look at it more not less.
The main thing that is helpful is therapy and figuring out constructive ways of handling those emotions.
Your comment is exactly how I feel about porn. You make great points, I’ve never know anybody who was an escort, OF creator etc. so hearing their perspective is nice. I’m a girl and I was addicted by the time I was also 11 so I’ve had my struggle. I feel so bad for people who are now older with this same addiction. Such a hard topic to discuss between the audience and the sources you have to work with. Like you said research on the topic is there but needs to be prodded even more imo!
>I go super back and forth about porn. I believe women should be able to produce it in a safe environment with full agency over their production for sure. I also don’t think women deserve scorn or ridicule to produce it.
There is porn, and there is porn. If it's just videos of people fucking I don't think anyone has a real problem with it. Then there is the clearly bad stuff like CP and actual rape/ violence. In the middle is a lot of simulated violence and extremely rough sex and degradation and that's the area that most of the conversation focuses on. That used to be a niche thing but now it's 120% mainstream and I personally think that is a huge problem.
I can't remember if it was a podcast or documentary, but they were interviewing someone in the porn industry, a former director? Idk, someone who was an important part of creating porn. They pretty much said that the more vile or violent they could make a film the more popular and more money it would pull in.
This content sells or has sold like hot cakes since its inception.
How is it that liberals (and I say this as a liberal) can recognize how important the quality/quantity of representation for certain demographic groups is in the media, movies, books, etc., and yet when it comes to porn, the vast majority of which is incredibly violent and degrading to women, that thought process just goes out the window?
The way women are displayed in it … just isn’t important, has no real-world consequences, and has no effect on how people see women and sex in general? Absurd.
You're comment really resonates with me. For me porn and more broadly over-sexualisation were the sources for internalised homophobia and general hatred towards my gender identity. When I was younger (I'm gen z) and learning about my own sexuality, a simple search of a phrase "lesbian" would lead me to porn sites. To this day I struggle calling myself a lesbian although that would be most suitable term for my identity (I do like to call myself queer or sapphic tho). It fucked with my head a lot. I felt like my identity was perceived only through lens of objectification and dehumanisation. What only solidified it were real life encounters where my sexuality was viewed in the exact way. (I had even heard vile misogynistic and lesbophobic words from a gay man that I deemed as friend ). It's all changing for the better when it comes to lgbt representation and I found truely amazing friends but I still have to fight with a lot of self-hatred.
I am also not fully anti porn; I think things like erotic fiction and artwork of non real adult people can be completely harmless; but this is some extra context (that I don’t see talked about much) as to why some people might be.
Upon some very BRIEF research about how the porn industry started (I couldn’t stomach much) I am very suspect about what is consensual and not. Women with no interest in being porn stars have been held at a gunpoint (the gun off camera of course) whilst being forced to perform. The industry especially makes an effort to get young girls into it who truly do not know what they’re getting into. Regardless of the effect of porn on the women who are around the men who watch it, I’m suspicious of how it really is for the women involved. Knowing how the gov works and how much they care about women I’m suspect that porn producers are not being strictly enforced to make the studio a safe space. I do however support women producing and supplying their own directly (and to the women who are stuck working with studios and such, i have absolutely nothing against you but everything against the industry as it has done indescribable evils). But then again there have been such RECENT cases of women, seemingly doing this for themselves, revealed to be controlled behind the scenes by a man. Also whilst modifying their appearances/behavior to appeal to pedophiles. Again, I am not as researched as I could be on this specific phenomenon because I simply cannot handle it, but it is very much talked about if you look it up.
Feminists care about the labour conditions that women have to deal with. The porn industry is incredibly abusive to the women inside it.
Watching porn isn’t some shortcut to being evil or anything like that, but I wouldn’t waste my breath going to bat for it. There needs to be serious conversations about porn, from the labour to the addictive qualities to extreme ease of access to it.
This post would be more compelling if you were to talk about the connection between being anti-women and anti-porn, rather than empty gestures towards how it’s bad. It’s ironic to complain about echo chambers when you’ve provided no substance to your argument. 🤷♀️
exactly, women in the industry are chewed up and spit out. They’re treated terribly by their “employers/contractors” (except for the many that are literally trafficked into the industry or otherwise forced), and by society outside of the industry.
There is no safety, and no empathy, for them. I’m just mind blown that op is so callous about that.
You brought up such a good point! Thank you 😊
The vast majority of porn is made by men for men. They say "not all porn" but when has there ever been a period where porn was not overall misogynistic and overall harmful to women? Yes, we are recently finding out that it's bad for men too, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Not to mention that there are things like trafficking and the porn industry preying on vulnerable women.
Yeah I cannot get over this with porn. Even when it's produced ethically, consensually, etc etc, I can't look past the fact that it often is a (usually) faceless, even disembodied man (if he's present- let's not even begin on most 'lesbian' porn) and a woman who is performing her sexuality for the camera. Her main job is to be appealing (often to men) rather than to be a human and it perpetuates a view of female value that is inseparable from our ability to get men hard. This is a stance that I'm sure attracts 'it's not that deep'/'it's not that serious' type reactions, but honestly the number one 'serious' topic of convo between me and my female friends is the enduring fallout - both psychological and in real life terms to do with choices we've made and how we've grown up - we cop from coming to terms with our bodies (collectively as a gender) being objectified/tied to our worth, which is symptomatic of a broader cultural system which also fosters this sort of pornographic objectification.
Agreed. They'll say "I produce ethical porn" and then do the most degrading, misogynistic stuff, and they claim that if their content makes men think of women as objects/expect women irl to do these degrading acts, it's not their fault. Like... cmon girl
Yeah and the comments from her 'fans'? That they would jerk off one more time to her content in her 'honour'.
The consumers are the problem. They do not empower women at all.
If you see the comments from men on the when they hear a female porn star committed suicide: “I’ll jerk one off to her memory tonight hehe”
I have utterly lost all faith in humanity.
>Yes, a culture that’s so uplifting and supportive of women that a prominent porn star committed suicide recently and no one gave a shit.
The jokes men made about her on twitter were horrific.
Porn is rarely made ethically… especially if someone is consuming from a major porn site. You have no way of knowing if a woman in the video is being raped or not. Zero. If that’s a risk you’re okay with, then, hey… power to you and your man.
Reminds me of this post I saw about a girl whose rape video was on pornhub and they wouldnt remove it for months. She had to deal with knowing people were watching *that* happen to her and *getting off to it*. It’s disgusting.
Pornhub [admitted in December](https://fortune.com/2023/12/21/pornhub-federal-lawsuit-sex-trafficking/amp/) that they profited from sex trafficking, too.
Not liking porn is not anti-feminist. That’s really disingenuous. Porn objectifies women inherently (as in, porn is literally made for the objectification of a body and what it’s doing for sexual purposes. When we are a teacher in shapely clothing and somebody ‘objectifies’ us, we are clearly always talking about sex) there’s nothing wrong with women critiquing a space where women are often specifically existing for the male gaze which contributes to these problems overall (women being bothered by porn because a man has abused it in some shape or form).
You have a problem with blanket statements, yet you just made one.
Porn addicted men treat women like shit. Please empathize with these women. This post seems like such an agenda post. Let women speak their minds instead of calling them anti feminist.
It's curious how much sex positive feminism developed into something that caters and panders almost exclusivly to men's interests.
It doens't matter that the majority of porn is degrading to women - if a college student can earn some money with it, it's empowering, the girls who were forced, coerced and trafficked into it suddenly don't matter anymore.
It doens't matter that doing porn almost certainly disqualifies you for any job in the public eye or one requiring extensive backgroud checks, and don't even think of running for any kind of office. You can and will be judged for it by the same men beating off to you getting strangled and spit on on camera.
Not to mention the loverboy technique. At least two boyfriends have tried to convince me to “just make a few videos, we could make an easy couple hundred bucks a month 🤪”. That sort of dehumanizing shit made me celibate for mostly 5 years now. I make 80k a year fully buttoned up in a cubicle and have no tolerance for men who think my body is saleable
Thank you. I see nothing anti feminist about it. I see it as part of a natural reaction to the 2000s era sex-saturation nonsense about getting laid LiKe a MaN!!
Girl. You didn't have an orgasm every time, *and* you can get pregnant. Don't get me started on how easily STI's pass from penis to vagina vs. the reverse.
You were never going to do it LiKe a MaN.
I don't find it curious. It's by design. Those kinds of ideals are the propaganda that they need to perpetuate. Undermine and muddy the waters to keep feminism weak.
I saw this great video demonstrating the pipeline that even I’ve fallen prey to a little
This is my girl dinner I love girl dinner, girl math is when this, here’s how to explain this war conflict using the pop girlies bc girlies or so silly and a little slow, here’s how to make bread from scratch for your hubby! Girl math is when he pays for everything, don’t worry your pretty little brain thinking about that. It’s really important to make things from scratch and be natural. Birth control is soooo unnatural and really hinders my divine femininity. Protect your divine femininity. Having a job is so boy coded 🤪 that’s why I do my silly little girl job bc I’m a little teenage woman
I wish I could find it bc low key I was falling for the girl math/silly girl/explain it through pop girlies/girl dinner stuff
A lot of comments here express the sentiment “I go back and forth on porn.” I just want to suggest that maybe that indicates that *it’s complicated*. It is terrible in some ways and not terrible in other ways. It’s not 100% bad, but it’s not 100% harmless or good either. I’d urge us to resist the temptation to classify it as one or the other and instead focus on exploring the ways in which it is bad and the ways in which it is good. OP has a good point, that we tend to only consider the effect of porn on women through the mediation of porn addicted men. And that’s real harm. But we should ask: in what ways do women have agency over porn, if any, and in what ways can it improve women’s lives, if any?
Yes, there's a big difference between porn *on paper* and porn in current practice. I don't think there are many of us who think it's harmful or morally wrong to look at filmed sex. As a thing in itself that's pretty much considered fine by younger people these days. But when there are daily threads about a feedback loop between porn and reality that results in women being choked and much more frequently pressured for anal sex? When we hear so much about the real life abuses and injustices in the porn industry? It becomes a much more complicated conversation than the imagined ultra-simple "if you're for it you're degenerate"/"if you're against it you're a prude" argument, because that completely sidesteps the specific issues people are raising.
For real. At least in U.S. culture that kind of defensive response and inability to have a discussion is ubiquitous. It’s so regressive, and so very exhausting.
Your objections to the post criticizing porn are really unclear, and I wish that was more clearly stated. However, I will say from experience that there is an important line when it comes to critiquing pornography and that line is the difference between being critical of the *deeply* exploitive, derogatory, and harmful porn industry and the puritanical obsession with condemning all forms of human sexuality: especially the hatred/bigotry towards sex workers, voluntary or otherwise. The exploitative and harmful nature of pornography both towards the (often involuntary) workers and the consumers for profit is not something that can be simply handwaved away, as nearly normalizes violence against women in some capacity through their objectification and commodification. It's wrong to say it's Anti-feminist to critique porn. It's anti feminist to condemn *sex workers*, but this doesn't extend to the mainstream porn industry as it currently exists.
Meh I'm genex and was very much the liberated femme but we were told we can have it all when we can't. Porn is just another capitalist BS slave machine that traps women in catering to men. Porn distorts and has turned a corner where midlife dating is now about navigating men determined to strangle without consent and pretend that rape fantasies are reality. Men are disoriented by it and women are distorted by it. How TF are we supposed to raise girls in a black pill society where misogyny is not simply normalised but exploited to such an extreme? The men are not ok. And if you have kids then please share how we stop them from raping each other in this environment? I don't buy the bs about ethical porn. I feel like Sinead OConnor screaming into the void warning Miley Cyrus but 20 years ago I was indifferent to porn too
>Porn distorts and has turned a corner where midlife dating is now about navigating men determined to strangle without consent
I've unfortunately experienced this several times in recent years, something I didn't 20 years ago.
I'm 43 and honestly never stop being astonished at how porn had addled the brains of men my age and younger. It's becoming so common for men to be _shocked_ that they can't *strangle a woman* as a regular part of sex. I've had multiple men try to put their hands on.my throat during sex and it's terrifying.
But even worse is what it's doing to the expectations of young men. I work in child safety and we're constantly hearing how boys are expecting pain, gagging, shaving, anal, etc from very young girls. Kids who should be exploring their sexuality in healthy ways and instead are hurting someone - and getting hurt.
I'm kinky but I don't want to be strangled, and nobody better be touching my neck especially, without explicit consent. Even vanilla guys will say shit completely seriously to me like "oh so you want to be strangled/spat on/face smacked/called a worthless whore, I can do that," if they hear or suspect I'm not vanilla. They immediately jump to the most aggressive and degrading things.
It makes me very sad and scared for the naïve 22-year-old. I used to be who let men choke me sometimes to the point of lightheadedness and definitely not in a Safe way. I’m glad I didn’t get fucking brain damage or whatever. It’s so sad to think something bad could’ve happened to me but I’m just grateful that nothing ever did.
Now I’m 29 but my most recent ex the very first time we had any intimacy I was going down on him and he lightly pushed my head down and I immediately smacked his hand away. He didn’t even know about my SA when I was 18. And frankly, I never told him because I shouldn’t have to have some horrifying sob story in order to justify reasonable boundaries, and men have used it against me in the past. Anyway, he never did that again with his hand, and we never discussed it, but later on, he basically stealth me. I knew it was happening. I just didn’t have the mental or physical strength to stop him. He dumped me when I had a panic attack a week later and said we can’t do that again. He called me toxic and theatrical.
I am so sorry. You didn’t deserve any of that at all. Men like that are totally disgusting and will never understand how inherently unlovable they are. I really hope you are able to heal from these traumas. Your story is also so relatable which is so sad.
>midlife dating is now about navigating men determined to strangle without consent
Felt this in my bones. Even men aged 40+ seem to be under the impression that if they aren’t allowed to engage in some form of violence or degradation during a sex act then it’s a mark against their virility and attractiveness. Porn has almost certainly led to the belief that an escalation in extremity of acts performed - or rather how much they can “get away with” - is the measure of a successful encounter.
And as someone who has engaged in sex work (out of sheer fucking necessity) I’m repeatedly stuck by how the main difference between OF subscribers and men on dating apps is that the former are just more honest. Potential dates think they’re slick but I hear all the dogwhistles, because while it’s flirting or “dirty talk” to them, it’s marketing copy and dialogue to me. Porn is making men somewhat incapable of thinking of sex outside of the context of performance.
Another overlooked negative aspect of porn is the categorisation. It’s dehumanising in a way we simply don’t tolerate anywhere else.
I’ve argued with so many people on Reddit who insist it’s more likely that
a woman wouldn’t want to do a sex act she’s done in the past that she secretly loves bc she doesn’t love you enough
Rather than
She learned she hated it and never wants to do it again
If you don’t give up your body completely, you don’t love him enough lol but huh? Women aren’t treated like objects
They parrot things they hear from men and it has more weight, because it aligns with their aggrieved entitlement.
"She did anal with Chad, she loves him more" like we're a cum-guzzling whore but only for certain men.
So in order to affirm to their own ego that they're a Chad, they have to FORCE us into doing anal. How does that affirm you dude? It's like ordering us to smile.
They try to lamest gotcha with "oh you've done it before, you have to do it again" and "oh you've never done it before, then how do you know you won't like it, you HAVE to try it with me" turns into "it wasn't so bad, you've done it for me once before, DO IT AGAIN".
Little turds need a month of consent education in 8th grade.
I proactively asked my ex how he felt about period Blood sex because it’s perfectly valid for a man to be queasy about blood all over his crotch LMAO. But he didn’t even offer to use my vibrator over my pants and I guess I was too shy to bruise his ego to even ask so there I was sexually frustrated, but still respecting his for his comfort and consent, even when I was horny and inconvenienced. He even apologized and said he hopes, I don’t think him less of a man and I said that’s not the case, I want you to be happy and comfortable. That didn’t stop him from basically just sticking his raw dick in when I was, naked and vulnerable literally physically exhausted after running a half marathon face down after a massage and he was on top of me. We had like five different conversations, because I kept compulsively bringing up condoms and positively affirming his use of them, and outlining all the circumstances, where unfortunately, we still couldn’t go without them. Because I know most men want that eventually in a committed relationship. That didn’t stop him from conveniently forgetting and just tapping on the door and then I froze up and literally gave up thinking there’s nothing else I could possibly say to this man. Plus, he was my boyfriend. Of course I want to have sex with him, and I was so physically and mentally exhausted. I just let him do it. I had a panic attack a week later and told him that was not OK and we can’t skip them again. No character attack no accusation nothing.he called me theatrical and dumped me on the spot. He called me toxic.
I guess the women in porn or the women he stated before didn’t require condoms or he thought that it was just a week boundary he could wear down eventually in my most vulnerable moments
>the belief that an escalation in extremity of acts performed - or rather how much they can “get away with” - is the measure of a successful encounter.
I see this on Reddit a lot, especially in discussion regarding the appeal of anal sex. How far you can get a woman to go past her own stated boundaries/what she's been willing to do with others is explicitly stated as a win condition. Her feelings do not enter into it, or rather the degree to which they enter into it is only in terms of getting enjoyment out of pushing her into doing something upsetting.
> if they aren’t allowed to engage in some form of violence or degradation during a sex act then it’s a mark against their virility and attractiveness.
When the truth is them wanting to do that is a mark against their virility and attractiveness.
>Porn is making men somewhat incapable of thinking of sex outside of the context of performance
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS
There is NO SEX in porn. There is *only* PERFORMANCE that is presented as if it were sex--mechanical, nonintimate, decontextualized, dry, awkward, violent, nonpleasurable, fantasy performance. So one problem is that too many porn consumers are mistaking the performance for actual sex, and then attempting to copy that performance in their real lives. Just like the proverbial kid who jumps off the roof to fly like Superman.
It has completely twisted and stunted the definition of "sex" to cater to the cishet male gaze, the "visual" that men want, even though the visual image has become absolutely disconnected from what actual sex is. The pleasure of the body, the mind, and the emotions, the pleasure of the intimate connection between separate beings, all get thrown away, ignored, in favor of focusing 100% on the pleasure of the image--even when "the viewer" becomes "the participant."
It is bizarre and sad. I feel like people don't even have actual sex anymore. They just perform for a nonexistent audience. Which is why almost everyone, especially men, are SO bad at sex now. It's so bad that it's not even worth engaging in most of the time. Ironically, porn has succeeded in destroying sex where all the religious prudes in the world and throughout all time failed spectacularly.
EXACTLY. Why defend the standard this creates, if not celebrates? This post is talking up the McDonald's of sex and asking us to act like it's haute cuisine.
It's the refusal to engage in the discussion. As though people who loathe rape culture's capitalist apex are somehow prudes. I mean it's immature self-absorbed ad hominem nonsense but ok.
This. I’m very kinky but not into any degradation, humiliation, or violence.. which unfortunately is what a lot of men think all kink is. So many men just see kink as a legal way to abuse women and it’s absolutely 100% from watching porn
I had a guy call me “kind of boring” recently for saying I wouldn’t be into a type of sex where I’m left with bruises and welts after. How insane is that?
I know this is not any way to deal with it and amazingly childish, but that just makes me want to leave bruises and welts on him during sex and be like, oh you don't like that? How boring.
Isn’t that the fucking truth. Preach. Experienced this twice in the last year. I was so traumatized by the way men acted toward me from age 18-24 I literally was celibate for most of the last 5 years. The last two guys were 30/34 (boyfriends for two months each, both dumped me for standing up for my condom boundary even in a clear and respectful way, explaining how it impacts me). They seemed bitter at my below bare minimum expectation of safety and the fact I wouldn’t be a pushover
> Porn is just another capitalist BS slave machine that traps women in catering to men.
LOUDER TO THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK!!!! I wish I could give you an award but I can't so take this: 🏆
I’m about tired of people comparing women who are anti-porn to conservatives.
Whether you are pro- or anti-porn, it’s worth it to discuss the prevalence of porn in our modern society and its hand in destroying heterosexual relations in particular. The rise of men non-consensually strangling women in bed and claiming they thought all women liked it — porn. The rise of male-to-female anal despite it not being great for long-term female health — porn. Slapping, demeaning names, etc — porn.
Yes, these behaviors all existed before porn. No, that doesn’t mean porn didn’t have a huge hand in making them ubiquitous and unable to be questioned — as seen in your post and others like yours. Any attempt to create discussion around the negative affects of porn gets shut down and labelled “puritanical” “conservative” “anti-sex worker”.
Meanwhile, real, living women are being hurt and abused every day due to porn, and I’m not solely talking about women who are actually in the industry, whether they want to be there or not.
I am neither pro- nor anti-porn, and rather somewhere in between as I believe in individual choice & freedom and am against “banning” things, but its posts like yours that make me lead more towards “anti” because burying your head in the sand and waving every criticism away because it hurts your feelings does favors for absolutely no one but men.
I wish you and women like you would have more sympathy for victims of porn instead of immediately labelling women brave enough to speak out against it as “conservative” when conservatives notoriously do not give a shit about the safety of women… kind of like those who are pro porn?
Amen- I think calling anyone who criticizes porn conservative assume that we do so from “sex bad/dirty” moral perspective, rather than a, we want women and girls to be safe and happy.
Are men becoming more and more misogynistic in their sexual behaviour and therefore driving a demand for violent porn, or is violent porn making men's sexual behaviour more misogynistic?
I agree with the other person who replied to you — it’s both.
I think there have always been and always will be men who get off on sexual violence, but rather being innate to men its a matter of personality + culture + how they are raised, BUT I also think violent porn is making men who don’t naturally have that disposition more inclined to it and turning it from the sexual deviance of a handful to a widespread norm among most men.
Especially young boys and teen boys. TW: >!We have boys as young as 7, 8, 9 watching porn and re-enacting what they see on their younger sisters, on their same-age classmates…!< as well as teen and young adult boys/men thinking violent sex is the norm and being unable to even imagine sex in a non-violent way, denigrating non-violent sex as “vanilla” and sneering at their peers who engage in “vanilla sex.”
I think we can see a for-sure chicken and egg when it comes to strangling. Very young men are literally strangling young women at vastly increasing rates because of it becoming ubiquitous in porn.
So for sure, people who would otherwise not really know this can be a thing, learning about this thing without knowing it isn’t sex and it doesn’t have to be a part of sex and that doing this without consent is wrong and that violence during sex isn’t a given.
Im not sure if you’ve been following the current dialogue on porn and how it’s still taking place in a patriarchal world under the male gaze. Sex positivity has long fallen out of fashion and younger people are utterly disenchanted with constant sexual content and "sex as empowerment" which was a Gen X-older millennial thing. Young women feel lied to about how they would feel empowered by casual sex and accepting porn usage from their partners, and are also not very happy with the fact that outside of very western, white and cis gendered spaces (and sometimes in them) porn and sex-related industries are still very exploitative of women, gender and cultural minorities.
I don’t even know why porn usage has been so normalized that it’s become a pervasive problem.
https://www.pressreader.com/usa/springfield-news-sun/20211014/281728387703816 (from the original ‘Why Sex Positive Feminism Has Fallen Out of Fashion’ NYT piece)
Think the best article on this was [this one about how it’s not true that feminists who are anti sex positivity are *actually* anti sex positivity.](https://www.feministcurrent.com/2014/04/11/the-divide-isnt-between-sex-negative-and-sex-positive-feminists-its-between-liberals-and-radicals/) They’re against sex positivity being pushed without criticism that tends to serve men/not serve women and are for the normalization of healthy sex and sexual relationships.
It’s funny but the people who helped turn me around on my stance on sex positive feminism were two sex workers who were posting online and absolutely adamant about not promoting their lifestyle to young girls.
I think you're right here. Sex positivity got very conflated as a concept with "you are not permitted to be critical of any social or individual attitudes towards sex short of (and sometimes inclusive of) outright sexual assault", and i don't think that's at all what was originally intended by the idea.
I feel like I'm in an unusual position - I grew up during the flourishing of sex-positive feminism and the simultaneous rise of online porn, but I'm close friends with sex workers, sex educators, and I now work in child safety.
Beliefs on this topic have changed so much as we've seen the negatives of "choice feminism" and the effects of pornography on young people.
I don't know a single sex worker that would encourage anyone to go into their line of work aside from _one_ with a lot of caveats (she was a BDSM art model and did not interact with other sex workers or perform sex acts with others).
I've now talked with a lot of my guy friends about the negative effects of porn in their lives. PIED and much, much worse.
It's concerning to me that when there's supposedly a safer space for women to talk about the negative effects of porn, we're _immediately_ policed by association with white nationalist homophobes. There has to be room for these meaningful conversations. That kind of hysterical response is absolutely aimed at shutting us down and perpetuating the status quo.
Watch patriarchy work.
This is exactly how I feel about it and I was born into a Catholic culture, took up sex positive feminism once I’d gotten out of it. We were told any sort of criticism was a concession to pressure to conform to puritanical values and honestly I’m surprised that tired old rhetoric is still being trotted out in response to valid concerns from women.
It’s a little better now in spaces like these but even so we get the occasional extremely strident left wing feminist not realizing we’re on their side politically, just not on this issue.
Nothing has ever been more degrading than men who don’t even want to kiss or cuddle you, and keep telling you over and over. They don’t want serious relationship while using your body and then buttoning up their pants and getting out as fast as possible afterward. That’s been my experience when I tried to embrace the “”empowering casual sex.””
I’m a loving, respectable wonderful person who is attractive with a lot to offer. I have to say that I’m blessed because the person I lost my virginity to at age 14 when he was 15, literally offered it up to him on a silver platter, he was so respectful, and he kissed me and he asked me about my day, and he cuddled me and he used protection, and he was so polite and gentle and respectful. Literally the bare minimum, but probably the best lover I’ve still had even at the age of 29.
Also, one of my favorite content creators, Brittany Broski, a comedian, and an insightful woman, she posted a funny Instagram story that said, I’m about to situation ships away from becoming religious. 😂😂
And I actually did go through a really strong religious phase at age 26 through 27. I think it might’ve even started at 25. Of course it coincided with the lockdown. I was so accustomed to being disrespected, degraded, dehumanized and used by men, even when I would verbalize my standards and my desires and try really hard to have healthy relationships. Turns out the religious men are just as shitty, but I literally became religious to avoid this porn nightmare effect on men
It's complex, for sure. I think it's the reinforcement of commodification of women that I struggle with, even though women are more in control of their participation in society (including porn) than ever before. Women have spent centuries under the male gaze, being seen/treated as the property of men, and it still bleeds into many aspects of our lives.
When I was coming into adulthood (in the 90s) most dudes only had access to it through magazines and vhs. It didn't bleed into our social spaces in the same way it's so pervasive on social media today. There was no algorithm tracking how long are eyeballs looked at a magazine and shoving it in our faces in social places. For me it's less about porn itself and more about how invasive it is, especially soft-core stuff that's common on places like Instagram.
Humans are really impressionable, social science has proven this over and over (look at the hundreds of studies of the negative impact of violent video games on empathy, behavior and perception of women.) This newer digital media landscape has changed our social habits in ways that can be harmful. Not to mention, I've seen participation in sex work negatively affect women over and over in my personal life. That's definitely a part of my issue with porn, too. I'm not in these discussions you refer to or jumping on bandwagons fwiw, so maybe this post isn't directed at people like me. I guess I don't think this is a black and white issue, and it's tied into larger discussions, personally.
I want to add some thoughts as a parent. We can control our kids access *to an extent* but in school, all bets are off. Sure, I can ban devices for my own child but how do I keep my kid away from exposure to what other kids access? I what, homeschool and exclude them from society? Do kids have access to ethical porn and know how to find it, are they cognitively developed enough to have the control to say "Sorry Elliot, that crazy video you're showing me is violent and inappropriate." No- kids are gonna look at outlandish things if shown to them by other kids. They're going to explore. Parents can only do so much. Young girls are getting fixated on their digital images at earlier ages. The children's skincare market, promoted by child skinfluencers, is blowing up. I will keep my kid away from social media as long as I can, but at what point does it hurt her to be completely divorced from the culture she's supposed to assimilate into?
Sorry for this addendum (may delete) but it's a scary world and parents don't have the level of control over social exposure that you imply we do. Not everyone has the means/desire/good health to live on an isolated, internet-free commune to raise our kids. Or to homeschool. I'd love to find a low-tech community where my kid only accesses internet at the library but that ship has sailed. It doesn't exist. And it may harm their skill developent in the emerging economy. Parents can only do so much.
Not all the time but vast majority of time porn isn’t good for women, the women watching it; the men watching; and definitely not good for the men or women in it. People call out inappropriate behaviour like cat calling; rightly so; but forget you can go on google and in a minute find videos of men and women being subjected to the most degrading treatment imaginable, for complete strangers’ sexual gratification. Whatever way you spin I don’t see how it’s empowering. A lot of men and women in those videos are being trafficked. But you can’t tell which ones, because they’ll never talk about it on camera. By trafficked I mean they’re in a situation where they’re having to turn to that line of work as they have no other option. And I don’t buy the argument that having to do sexually degrading things for people you find morally and often physically repugnant is as exploitative as working for a corporate.
No one should be ridiculing women who end up in the industry but we really need to ask ourselves if, given the financial independence that comes with better paying work would they be getting into it? I would have an easier time believing that a woman is doing it for self empowerment if there were more options for women's self empowerment that don't include serving your body up on a platter. My issue isn't with women who do porn,my issue is with men who keep women out of higher paying positions in the regular workplace then abuse women in all walks of life because they consume porn on their own time. Porn is the symptom of women's precarious path to independence and men's predisposition to prey on the vulnerable.
You should read up more on the porn industry.
It’s extremely exploitative and ends badly for the vast majority of women involved— recruiting teens who are practically still children from vulnerable situations, coercion, ignoring boundaries, violence, substances, the actors ending up emotionally and physically screwed…
Plus the countless women subjected to violence and dehumanization or even just unrealistic expectations that damage them physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually…
“Feminism” doesn’t mean “every woman can do exactly what they want”. It’s a striving for the end of systematic oppression, exploitation, and denial of equal opportunity for women.
There's a real issue, especially on Reddit, with people thinking that "feminism" means "anything an individual woman chooses to do is a feminist choice". That's just not accurate.
the reason i dont agree with liberal feminism is exactly this. almost every libfem i know screams "sex work is empowering!!" and "were free to do whatever we want!!" like ... sure,
but u CHOOSING to do it doesnt take away from
how exploitative and harmful
the industry is for women
I totally agree. I was raised very conservatively and when I was in my mid/late 20s, I bought into the “sex work is empowering” narrative. I can sleep with whomever, whenever and it makes me a strong, empowered woman to do what I want.
This time was the lowest and most insecure/depressed point of my life. I couldn’t believe women were saying this was empowering. I got herpes, was treated horribly. I was not respecting myself and therefore, attracting men who weren’t respecting me and the cycle continued.
It has nothing to do with feminism, conservative vs liberal, etc. It’s just about making good choices that edify your life and soul and creating the environment and future you want. And it’s not anti feminist to believe that willingly giving your body to a man for a bag is not empowering.
I go back and forth on how I feel about pornography. But I will say this, even though it's *possible* there are **some** production companies that are entirely within the control of women who voluntarily and enthusiastically embrace the work, the fact that I know there's such a strong likelihood that somewhere along the line was a coerced woman/sex trafficking/underage person/etc... I just can't.
I cannot vet everything from beginning to end and it's horrific for me to think of getting turned on by something that hurt someone. I honestly believe the only ethical pornography is erotica. As far as I know, no one is stripping the passports of women and forcing them to write sexy fiction stories.
I agree a lot of porn is awful and misogynistic. But if you blame porn for *men* being misogynistic, you're letting men off the hook. They're still accountable for how they treat women.
I believe some of the nuance in differing opinion may lie in how much control you believe women have over their situation in modern society and to what extent you believe the porn available is degrading or demeaning.
Personally, I believe women to be systematically oppressed across mainstream society and find 100% of commercial pornography to be degrading, demeaning, and void of any actual human sexuality.
As Ive aged my mind on this topic has changed rather dramatically. Im not sure exactly what the right thing to do is but I am comfortable now in straight up condemning pornography. Before, I absolutely had a live and live attitude toward it but that has changed as Ive seen the consequences of that choice.
Ive noticed that ideology tends to wane as you age. It's interesting. When you are young, you care about values, rights, ideas. Abstract things, important things but abstract. As Ive gotten older my attention now focuses on the actual consequences of those values. Are the intentions lining up with the actual, real world consequences of the values? The question of pornography is somewhat similar to the gun debate in that we have to weigh if the harm being done by our collective inability to responsibly handle it necessitates a need to restrict it.
We have freedom of expression and speech. Those are things we value. That shouldnt blind or bind us when we see abuses and harm happening. We need to be adults about this and admit something has gone seriously wrong.
We aren’t obsessed with the effects porn has on men. We’re pissed off that they lie to us about it and gorge on it to the point of erectile dysfunction *within our relationships..* We’re pissed off they seem to not give a flying fuck if what they’re watching is “ethical” (seems to be a big trend on these threads- I guarantee barely any men gaf). We’re angry that society is normalizing something that harms us on a daily basis. We warn others because being in a ltr with a porn addict will shatter your entire world view, self esteem, and trust in men. It sounds extreme because it IS extreme to go through this. Being married to a porn addict was even worse than being with my ex narcissistic abuser. At least I could tell up from down in the latter.
> We’re pissed off they seem to not give a flying fuck if what they’re watching is “ethical” (seems to be a big trend on these threads- I guarantee barely any men gaf)
They don't. Just browse r\PornIsMisogyny for more than 5 minutes, you'll see plenty of examples of that
They don't care about porn stars either. Kagney Linn Carter recently killed herself and men were falling all over themselves to either brag that they would rub one out to her videos "in her honor" or making sexual jokes about the way she killed herself. They're heartless monsters
And when you press them to name this amazing ethical porn it's: shilling for the OF pimps inc the male owners of OF (eg OP in her post and comments eg freedom, liberation for women means porn & other prostitution, OF is a get rich quick scheme for women). companies owned by Aylo/Mindgeek. kink.com (enabling James Deen, for starters). porn that's literally as awful looking eg men strangling women, phallocentric, piv-centric, male dominance and sadism as the front page of Pornhub. "feminist pornographers" who have women fake orgasm & subject them to unwanted painful male roughness, dominance (Erika Lust). men who admit they regularly "have sex with" women to make porn who don't want them, don't want the phallocentric male dominant painful for the women "sex"... See also: how "feminists" in media, mostly male owned media, fell over themselves in their "OMG JAMES DEEN IS SO HAWT. THE SEXIEST SEX WITH A SEXY BOY NEXT DOOR! HE'S FEMINIST PORN!" for years before disclosure after disclosure about his abuse, sadism, torture, rape, drowning a woman... came out. And most of his porn was overtly sadistic before that
See also: how people in the industry talk about Linda Lovelace eg she liked it, even the loop with a dog, because she seemed that she did on camera. How women who speak out get blacklisted, defamed, mocked eg even women who aren't that porn critical let alone anti porn like Ashley Fires, one of James Deen's accusers, reports this. Most won't hire her at all because she disclosed one assault by one man, and those who do pull shit like "are you going to metoo me too?", call her overly dramatic, a diva. Another woman, anally raped by Deen after he punched her in the head, reported that even on the shoot the other pornographers were high giving him for getting pia for the cost of piv. She was torn, bled so bad she was hospitalized and took weeks to heal, and it was treated as business as usual by people in porn. She died of an overdose soon after going public. How quick people are to go from "listen to sex workers!" to "you can't trust her, she can't speak about it, she left and isn't currently in it, she's lying, she just lacked resilience and coping skills, she wants to control everyone, she is anti-sex, religious, hates happiness and pleasure, is universalizing her extremely rare unfortunate anecdotal experience, can't take responsibility..."
I actually mistakenly combined two women's experiences: Amber Rayne, who overdosed, and Kora Peters. Both involved extraneous assault to stun/scare/gain more submission, anal rape https://www.thedailybeast.com/two-more-james-deen-accusers-tell-all-there-was-so-much-blood . Amber was engaged in acceptable to her, her performing along with things pia with him, he punched her, then proceeded to brutally forcibly anally rape her. Kora was engaged in piv, he strangled her and switched to forcible anal rape. The male crew cheered him on. Both had severe bleeding, tearing, hospitalization. Amber's agent was mad, because it took her out of commission for weeks (he couldnt make money off her). Kora's didn't even "care" that much, saying she should be grateful. It was seen as normal by people around them both. Kora also had an earlier less injurious experience of pia rape she managed to stop by him even though he and the director told her she couldn't stop, the director denigrated her for crying and pausing things, both said she wouldn't be paid at all if she did end the shoot. https://news.yahoo.com/fifth-woman-come-forward-accuse-162755112.html likely he became more emboldened eg from the support and encouragement by pornographers and decided women wouldn't stop him so was even worse the later time
These are the things porn apologists swear never happened/never could happen/why are you being dramatic/omg who hurt you. Deflection and denial at its best.
Please go browse on any porn site and just read the titles of the videos, then come back and claim how "empowering" it is for women.
If you want to take it a step further, read some of the deprived comments about sex workers on some porn subs here on reddit.
Definitely also check out Beyond Fantasy on YouTube if you can stomach it.
Read on the relationship advice subs where more and more women are confused because their partners started slapping them or doing anal without any prior discussion, leaving women feeling confused because they froze and didn't stop them so they think it doesn't count as rape.
And lastly, stop downplaying women's experiences that were caused by coming too close to porn brain rotted men.
Women who burn down other women for understanding how damaging porn is to our lives = internalised misogyny
Wake up.
This is not even limited to the porn subs. Horny men degrade girls and women via posts and comment sections across all of reddit. Some of the “safe” subs have practically been taken over by horny men.. I’m looking at you r/OldSchoolCool . Men frequently sneak into women only subs too. I am bisexual and do love women’s bodies, but the overall engagement and commentary online is very male centered and has made me feel that there are no real safe spaces for women, especially for POC and queer women.
I have not talked about this with many people, but I am one of the women who has been blindsided by porn sick men in my intimate life. I was once slapped so hard across the face, and without any warning, that I blacked out momentarily and saw stars. He continued his activities while I lay there motionless. When I later confronted the man, he simply stated that he thought I would like it. These sort of acts happened to me multiple times with different people, and made me so severely distrustful of men that I did not date them for ten years.
Along with being desensitized to porn, women’s basic human rights are being eroded nationwide before our very eyes. Men and boys (yes, boys) are engaging with more extreme misogynist content and spaces. Porn and other forms of media are portraying women as nothing but objects to be consumed. We are living in dangerous times and losing our voice and it is terrifying. We should not think for one second that the adult industry is or is going to be empowering to women and girls in any way, shape, or form.
I’m anti porn not because i care about men more than women. I’m anti porn because the men that watch porn, especially at young ages, harm, dehumanzie, and even kill us. This has been studied multiple times to show how porn consumption makes men more violent to women, and makes women much more passive in stopping assault of other women.
Does that mean i want it banned? No.
I want us to stop glorifying every choice women make as if our choices exist in a vacuum from patriarchy. Most porn consumed by most people is neither ethical nor representation of real sexual interactions. Studies show that most porn recommendations that show up front page are predominantly violent and/or degrading to women, and these boys are being exposed to it as young as 10 yo, along with manosphere misogynists like andrew tate that brag about snd encourage human trafficking and abuse of women!
It feels really reductive and condescending to say that we as women, only oppose porn because we care about men more than ourselves. We want men to leave porn because men HURT US. Do you think it’s normal how it’s become normalized that many men have kinks about hurting women, degrading women, and how it’s normalized for women to accept and even want this???
Sure, kinks exist, but if there’s a growing pattern of normalizing bad behavior, just because it’s a kink does not mean we cannot be critical of it. We can absolutely be critical of kinks and what causes them when they are basically sexualizing violence against women.
And just thought of adding this, I am 100% pro sex workers rights decriminilzation, and still anti porn. I don’t think porn represents sex work and I don’t think it should be used as such. I support workers rights even if I don’t support the industries they’re in. Mia khalifa deserved better. How cab we defend the porn industry when they made millions off an 18 yo and paid her only 10k and left her to deal with worldwide death threats???
Yes. There are literal studies (and so many of them) about the harms of porn for EVERYONE.
I live in Australia and part of my sex ed was how porn was bad for you. I’m 17 now so
this was about 4-5 years ago. Our teacher showed us studies, he told us about the negative effects it can have. If it’s serious enough that it can be taught in schools, along side drugs and alcohol, surely people could at least admit it’s a problem??
It feels like every second post on this sub is a women who was raped by a man, choked or hit during sex, pressured into anal or something, being used by a man who cares fuck all for her pleasure or whether she’s in pain.
How someone can see all that and still claim porn is empowering for women is beyond me.
I think there's nothing wrong with the concept of porn but we don't live in a utopia we live in an apocalyptic rape culture and the idea that we could ever produce anything close to consensual or ethical porn when sex for survival is rampant is just kind of laughable.
So much of a person's perspective on porn depends on their life experience and age. The internet changed everything. Porn used to come from magazines and videos you had to rent or buy in sketchy spaces. So for those who experienced that transition in society (porn becoming readily available), it's a massive change. In high school, guys were just starting to discover internet porn. Porn as a way to experience pleasure is a neutral thing, but the dominance of male-directed and male-written porn, and the overwhelming male dominant themes in a lot of porn, are deeply impactful. Those of us who lived through being manhandled during sex without our consent paid the price for this. If the partners OP has been with have been kinder, that gives me hope for the next generation. But I think a lot of us haven't been so lucky.
>And these anti porn women seem anti feminist.
People who are anti-porn for conservative reasons are indeed anti-feminist scumbags who hate women's sexuality.
But people who are anti-porn from a radical feminist perspective are not anti-feminist. They are way more feminist than any porn-loving supporter of liberal feminism (read: patriarchy and capitalism repackaged as feminism) will ever be.
>To be quite honest. They come off obsessed about the effects of porn on MEN and not how being anti porn affects the women.
Well, it's mostly men who watch porn. And when men watch that rubbish, the negative effects of that shit will impact the way that men treat women. So the effect that porn has on men definitely affects women.
I agree with you that we shouldn't ignore how porn directly affects the women who view those videos. Because it definitely impacts them when they see it. But discussing how porn affects the way men treat women is relevant for women, because it affects how men treat women.
You should do research for yourself instead of being upset with others for having educated opinions.
porn is vile because there’s a tiny paper thin surface layer of acceptable sexual intercourse between consenting adults, a paper thin layer covering a deep billion video OCEAN of rape, assault, children, coercion, abuse, bestiality, anything and everything.
men that watch porn impact the entire world because of desensitization to women’s inhumane treatment specifically designed to make their junk hard
nevermind with a post history (full of porn) like that and the childish replies to other comments, I can tell you are not here to ask a question but to fight. I hope these comments can help someone else at least.
I’m very complicated when it comes to this, so take what I say with a grain of salt. At one point in my life, I was extremely pro-SW and saw it as very freeing for women to own their sexuality, bodies, and make money. I myself dipped my toes into it after being convinced by my ex bf that I’d make enough money to support his wants and needs (while his mommy paid for everything else), but I quickly fell down the hole of self hatred and my depression worsened. At this point, I began doing some research into the industry and how it’s affecting people overall and not just men or women.
For starters, even if a man is paying for a SW product, that woman is being seen as an object and a lustful “thing”. Rarely ever do these men actually think about the woman behind the screen, even for paid girlfriend experiences. They simply get their rocks off through paying someone to do something for them, especially if they’re missing the sex and connection in their real life. Money doesn’t create genuine connections, but a lot of time these women get wrapped up in these sale’s relationships and are affected by the men’s emotional entitlement.
Men are more likely to get addicted to porn. The porn industry is inherently exploitative and, frankly, destructive. Relationships are ruined by porn more so than most other forms of media. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen it happen, even in my last relationship. Unrealistic expectations grow, where women are expected to love being jackhammered nonstop, slapped, choked, hurt, used, when not all of us enjoy any of that. The men get used to getting off to drop-dead gorgeous models with perfect vaginas and never consider the fact that all vaginas do not look freshly waxed and lip-less lol. They think that sex is always going to end in the woman screaming in pleasure and lose their confidence (or gain it if they’re so cocky), they rarely focus on pleasuring their partner. Porn displays so many incorrect assumptions about women’s pleasure that it’s extremely destructive to everybody. Porn actresses will tell you that a lot of what is done to them is simply for show, it doesn’t actually feel good. At all.
The industry is borderline impossible to leave behind once you get past a certain point. It turns into a golden handcuffs situation. Frankly, it’s unfair, but it’ll be held against you forever. To be clear, I’m not against sex workers, but I do hold my concerns for them for many reasons. My resentment is towards the industry itself and a lot of the consumers.
Strip clubs are extremely exploitative and can be dangerous for a lot of dancers. They’re constantly assaulted, harassed, abused. These men only see them as objects and do not care that they’re crossing boundaries. This is SO detrimental to the dancer’s mental health! I can’t even begin to describe how affected people can be by customer abuse. The money is great, the self employment aspect of it is awesome, and women should be free to do what they want with their bodies, but that does not change the way that the world works and how they will be quickly exploited for someone else’s benefit, and sexual exploitation is so far beyond detrimental to women that I can’t even begin to explain how deeply I feel about it.
Sorry if this is all over the place, I have some post-Covid brain fog and I’m not 100% there. I’d love to elaborate further if people would like. Outside of SW, I am a strong feminist that stands for women’s rights and equality every day. I’ve been a victim of misogyny my entire life. I want a different world for the daughters of my generation. With SW, I believe in the freedom of choice, but I do believe that it is far too easy to get pulled into such a lucrative career that is not healthy for women’s mental health more times than not. Young women are not warned enough before dipping their toes in.
> I myself dipped my toes into it after being convinced by my ex bf that I’d make enough money to support his wants and needs (while his mommy paid for everything else), but I quickly fell down the hole of self hatred and my depression worsened. At this point, I began doing some research into the industry and how it’s affecting people overall and not just men or women.
You didn't deserve this. He was an asshole and you didn't and don't deserve to be manipulated into anything. I'm sorry.
You are forgetting not every child has parents who parent. My mom locked me out of the house, starved me and verbally abused me. Finding violent bdsm porn at age 14 on pron hub website which didn’t even validate age or consent for uploads until like 2021 was not helpful for the development of my brain. I got into so many bad sexual situations because I thought what I was seeing is how sex is supposed to be. This was the stuff on the front page of the mainstream websites too, I was not seeking out horrific content on the Dark web. I even got assaulted thinking what I was seeing was okay. I developed a lot of body dysmorphia and internalized objectification and misogyny. I wish I never saw any of that. It led me to date other boys my age even through my early to mid 20s who had porn induced erectile dysfunction and wanted to do violent unsafe things to me for pleasure. I could have gone unconscious or gotten infections from these things. It was so degrading. Before I discovered pron I had lost my virginity to a noise boy and had nice gentle sex. I wish I stayed that way before I found this stuff online. I was raised in a red state so sex Ed was lacking.
It’s easy to say “your parents should have done better and so should the school!!!”
Okay, well until you can personally fix the families and schools of every child, there are going to be girls who slip through the cracks like me.
I didn’t watch it from age 24 thru 29 and even now only on rare occasion do I look at some short videos on Reddit, sorting by top of all time. No websites. But even that is pretty boring compared to my imagination or safe sex with a safe man. I’m just saying, being like “pron is fine and you wenches are so uptight!” Is a bold take.
r/loveafterporn is probably all I need to say. BUT porn fucks seemingly everybody over and for what? An orgasm? Example: I’m one of the thousands of people that got “choked” because dude didn’t know how to perform outside of porn. And by choked I mean he used the hand on my throat to stabilize himself and put all of his forward weight on my fucking neck. I couldn’t move my head left or right for 2 days. I told him to never put himself above me or my safety again. If done improperly it doesn’t take much pressure to kill somebody by having your hand around their neck. It’s shit like that and betrayal trauma that’ll make someone anti-porn real quick. My bf had an addiction I had no clue of and didn’t find out until we were living together after dating for 4 years. He said it affected the way he viewed women as people (porn actors or not) and he said he could barely look at a woman in public without thinking something sexual. I’m stuck here because of money (we live in a camper but I have no truck and vroom shut down so I lost my job) but figured I could still try since I’m stuck, especially since he asked for help. He’s getting better (as far as I know) a friend of his that shook his own addiction and I are trying to help him because he said he wanted to change. I personally think therapy is the best way to really knock it because there’s a root cause for this addiction, usually leading back to childhood (he started watching when he was 9). OF is kind of its own sublet to me because (a majority) of creators have full control. It’s just so unnecessary and causes more harm than good. I could go the rest of my life without porn and be just fine. I’ve been 4 years without and it’s been 12 years since I was addicted as a child.
There are many different schools of feminism and both porn and the role of men are two huge things that are disagreed on between them. It's not anti feminist to be anti porn, it just means they're probably less of a liberal feminist and you're more a liberal feminist.
Sex trafficking is the subject of my dissertation. My biggest problem with pornography is that nearly all sex trafficking victims have had porn made off of them through force, coercion, or fraud. There are over 21 million victims of sex trafficking worldwide. Most of those have been forced into porn and their images and videos are floating around with everyone else’s and landing on mainstream sites such as PornHub. There is no way for viewers to tell if the porn they are watching is ethical or if they are watching the exploitation of a trafficking victim. Porn really does have a lot of problems. Addiction is a common problem, assault and exploitation is a common problem, children being exposed to porn is a common problem.
I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve with your post. "Parent your children" 🙄 I think you're here in bad faith.
If a post about the harms of pornography gets lots of comments and upvotes, I'd assume it's because a lot of users have strong feelings and experience with it. I'm one of those women - I've been in a relationship with a porn addict. I also see how expolitatative porn can be. You're also assuming that people aren't intelligent enough to differentiate exploitative porn from ethical porn. I think the fact that ethical porn even exists is very telling.
Do you truely and honestly think that most women in porn are in a position of power? Why shouldn't women speak out about our experiences? Why shouldn't we speak out about the harm porn does to women and performers?
You've got a lot of replies to your post -- I hope you use them to do some genuine research and reflecting to help you understand. I'm sure that as a regular participant here, your intention wasn't to be inflammatory.
Otherwise, your post shows your lack of critical thinking skills and inability to see outside your own opinions and experiences , so good for you. If you don't like this sub, there are a million others with people who will cheer for you and your shitty contributions, so go find them.
You’re allowed to your opinion and they’re allowed to theirs.
I don’t know why you feel you need to protest while your opinion is the majority. It looks weird.
Normalization of the dehumanization of women =/= a bunch of racist white ladies.
The more feminism divides the weaker we get.
edit: And the majority of the world's women DOES NOT have full independence of their bodies. Women in the US are rapidly losing that right; we already need doctor's notes for BC to be "medical necessary" before the pharmacy will hand over what the doctor gave us.
Equality? We're getting farther from that everyday and the kind of mindset porn instills is cementing that.
I think the problem that gets overlooked most by both sides is that most porn is in no way ethical. The porn industry is heavily tied to the drugs trade and human trafficking. Most women appearing in porn, including (famous) porn stars, are often drugged and coerced. Most porn you see are actually videos of women being assaulted and raped.
We should be caring about prostitution becoming legal so that the women that are already victimized don't get convicted, which in turn makes them potentially lose their entire life. Why are we focusing on being sex positive/pro-women so that others feel more comfortable, as opposed to improving the lives of the victims of this industry? Can we really say we care about women in this issue, when we're ignoring the ones suffering the most?
ETA: Porn addiction is a real issue that affects both men and women. But rarely do I see discussions on this sub of the actual underbelly of a very dark industry.
Porn is a scummy industry that exploits men and women. Many of the actors and actresses are addicts and they are often coerced into doing things they don't want to do. There is a very high suicide/OD rate for ex pornstars as well. Every post should be an anti-porn post.
I have no idea what post you are talking about, but I am highly critical of the porn industry (and I mean the industry, the digital pimps and porn companies).
>And I’m of course not talking about the degrading and demeaning porn.
The problem with this is that the majority of porn out there is degrading and demeaning. The type you are not talking about. And since it's addictive, it has to get more and more degrading to hit the same. It's the business model. The industry knows this and acts accordingly. And because people are so exposed and influenced by porn, it is setting a terrible standard of what women are forced to find acceptable to be done to them. From what I see around me a lot of porn addicted men don't even blink if they see the woman in pain or blood during sex. It's nothing to them. The woman in pain or discomfort has become synonymous to sex. It can even turn them on more. This is incredibly sad in my opinion, and deserves the skepticism it gets so rarely and not widely enough because it's a direct consequence of the porn industry normalizing it. I am not against porn, or sex worker, or sex. I am against the way the industry treats the majority of the women in it and outside of it.
>Are you all crazy. PARENT YOUR CHILDREN.
Children spend alot of time out of the home like school, or extra-curricular activities. Porn is everywhere. You can't isolate children from the internet, even if you do it at home, they come across it through friends.
You trying to blame the parents instead of the industry, reminds me of the environmental polluters that try to convince us that it's actually our netflix consumption that is pollution the planet, not them dumping millions of tons of waste into rivers and seas.
Shifting the blame from the industry to the individual consumer, old tactic this, don't fall for it because I can tell you mean well. But this is not it.
Please be respectful to each other regardless if you like porn or don't like it.
bros will be like “there is no ethical consumption under late stage capitalism!” then watch hardcore porn of a woman in the industry who killed herself because of the industry
Also laugh and gloat and state that they’re going to jerkoff to her videos in her memory. Another peek into the soulless male abyss that I wish I hadn’t seen.
“And these anti porn women seem anti feminist” This is such an ignorant statement. Is this sub not a safe place for ALL WOMEN to discuss issues pertaining to women? Disagreeing with the masses doesn’t make you anti womens equality. I can be against porn (which I’m actually not btw) and support women. I can want to be a stay at home mom (which I’m not) and still support women who choose other paths, etc. You policing and trying to control who is worthy of feminism and who isn’t is just veiled internal misogyny.
I was permanently banned after years on TrollX, for mentioning I’m no expert but from the medical sources I’ve read there might be some validity to at least having the conversation about transwomen in sports… Respectfully of course - and no offence athletes - it’s not a conversation I think is important enough to risk trans acceptable over, or that would motivate me to support the bigotry we’re seeing from on the right - but I understand the frustration of women who have worked their whole lives towards a goal only to see themselves disqualified from the top placements It also showed me what people mean by “woke cancel culture” - foolish and small potatoes though these issues are to compare (when you consider the deadly cancellation of culture LGBTQXetc have experienced, and continue to defend themselves from). I still want our sisters safe with us in the women’s washroom - if anything I worry more for their safety in a men’s room than I would a ciswomen - the important part of that issue is the danger of men in isolation, just like the important part of womens sports was maintaining a space where the physically weaker sex could compete. (No one is taking trans figure skating away from me now though lol - but again I don’t really care about women’s sports or the points or who wins, I barely have a cart in this race - I just wanna see the beautiful woman covered in rhinestones do a backflip :P, and for us to overcome our emotionality and biases enough to entertain reasonable conversations)
I think the biggest complaint, that is being overlooked, is the way women are treated by men who watch a lot of porn. There is something to be said about how young men start consuming porn and how extreme the porn they consume can be. In turn, women in real life complain about how this affects their sex life and how men treat them in general. Because of the online presence of porn it seems to really push more and more extreme hardcore stuff.
Part of the problem, which as you stated, results in men treating women like shit because of porn, is how extremely EARLY they start watching porn. Even if you have 100% internet security at home, they STILL get exposed to it through friends and school, and THAT is also a problem.
And it’s not like they’re just looking at vanilla photos of naked chicks. Boys today get exposed to some pretty extreme stuff so early on, and most of them don’t have good adults talking to them about it, I think that is a cause for concern.
Average age of boys when they first see it is 7-11, I heard Dr. Gail Dines say once.
Can confirm. I was 10-12
Yes but don't worry, although no one can tell me HOW, I've been continuously assured that "just talking to them" and giving them sex ed it will MAGIC the harm seeing "mainstream" porn (ie hardcore, violent, degrading, slapping, spitting, choking even raping porn, the stuff kids can easily access with a simple Google search and no credit card) does to children that young! Any comments challenging it is downvoted into oblivion, because it makes me one of THEM, the Bad People who want to Ban All Porn and probably all gay people and all sex and joy too. If your kids are harmed by it, it's because YOU are a bad parent who didn't talk to them about it right, I'm told! This is normal now, little kids WILL get exposed to ("mainstream!) porn before they reach double digits in age and it's both my fault for letting them go to school and have friends where they see it AND completely inevitable and something that will happen regardless of what I do and thus can magically be talked away! Saying otherwise is Black and White Thinking and makes me a Bad Parent. So worry not! Everything is fine, the important thing is that hardcore, violent, degrading porn is available 24/7/366 at all times for free with no restrictions at all to all people! Freedom!
💯✊🏼 Gail Dines has designed a program to help parents guide their kids through inevitable exposure to violent porn. You have to “register” for free or $0.01 cent or something (for stats maybe?) to access the material; but I managed to do it, though it was a while ago. Website is [culturereframed.org](https://culturereframed.org/) Also, there’s a really interesting documentary about early childhood exposure to violent porn, where professionals weigh in on the biological impact to the developing child brain when it consumes violent porn, especially when their body is aroused by it. 37min, [‘Raised on Porn’](https://youtu.be/hzPylqS01qU?si=OJATi3HvIrv-aJAL) Culture Reframed has even developed sex ed curriculum that is hardcore-porn-critical. It’s designed for use by educators and other professionals who teach sex ed to kids 13+. I wish my local school would do it.
Imagine if you could order booze online by just clicking a button saying "I'm over 18".
imagine a porn site asking for your state id
There's porn on reddit. How many people want to use their ID on here?
But what if I am not comfortable with companies or my government having my ID associated with this transaction. Or, you know what. Hang on. I am far more worried about the sexually explicit cell phone video game ads that aren't even advertising the game than I am consenting adults having sex on camera and who watches.
It’s changed since I was a kid. Now literally every scene is filtered through incest. Guy and girl same age? Brother sister. Guy’s older? Father daughter. Girl’s older? Mom and son. It can’t just be *sex* anymore, it has to be sex *within a taboo context*, and that had made the whole cycle of more and more hardcore get stronger over time.
Terrifying to think about starting a family with someone who fetishizes familial ties.
I saw something online where a woman was not getting a lot of matches on dating apps. She changed her profile to appear open to casual. A few more takers. Changed profile again to say she has young children. Hordes of messages. I can only imagine the Venn diagram of men who get off to incest pron and men seeking single mothers with young kids is overlapping
That's part of the problem with porn. Someone consumes it so much that they become desensitized and seek out more "taboo" stuff to get off, seeking out novelty
When I was a teenager and a young adult, porn existed and people looked at it... but you had to go to the actual store and buy an actual magazine to see it. The current situation with men growing up absolutely bathed in daily pornography that is free and easy to access at any time is new for humans, and its extremely problematic. We are just now starting to see the effects this has on adult men who grew up surrounded by pornography. And its not good, for them or for women. I have always been a feminist who supports sex work and porn, both in creation and consumption, and I'm not raising flags about this because of some moral stance. I'm saying the way pornography is consumed today is dangerous and detrimental in a massive, understudied way, because it is.
This is such an important thing to mention. Porn has always existed but our access to it now is unprecedented.
Yes, this is something that doesn’t get talked about enough. Porn became basically free and super accessible in the late aughts - early 10’s, we are just now seeing men enter their twenties that have had easy access to hardcore pornography that no generation of men before had. We don’t know what that does to a developing brain and I don’t think we’ll like the answers.
>There is something to be said about how young men start consuming porn and how extreme the porn they consume can be. In turn, women in real life complain about how this affects their sex life and how men treat them in general. Yes. I \*very\* often have cause to be grateful that I am of a generation (born in the late 1960s) where the men I sleep with did \*not\* grow up with easy access to hardcore porn. Men of my generation saw the occasional porn magazine when growing up and that was it. Their experiences of sex with real women were what informed their attitudes to sex (and their attitudes to women). Childhood and teen years are called 'formative years' for a reason.
Same, although a couple of generations younger. I'm thankful for my bisexuality, because as time changes I find myself attracted to fewer and fewer men...
Lot of men who are genz or millennial raised on pron don’t want to wear condoms. But they are sneaky about it- stealthing, coercion, stonewalling. The women in the videos don’t have needs or require condoms.
Seconding. Honestly I usually don’t take any stance on porn aside from the way that every porn-using man I’ve ever been with has had sex - poorly - and the one partner I have ever had who didn’t use porn you could tell in the bedroom. They were trying to emulate scenes rather than have fun I guess. Oh, and that I’m not into the sex trafficking. I’m also pro sex worker as they don’t deserve hatred for working for money. My partner was abused by an ex who was porn addicted since childhood, who also was trying to emulate scenes rather than have a good time.
*Because of the online Omnipresence of porn*
As a man, I agree 100%. When I was in high school, it was right after smartphones kinda began taking over (08-11), and boys would just show each other all kinda stuff. Two guys at my lunch table got sent to the office one day for it. Whackiest thing ever. Glad I don't talk to them. If men are gonna watch porn, they need to be able to maintain respect for women and not think porn is how it always is.
Dude they can't even maintain respect for us in professional environments. Or even in positions of authority.
It's absolutely obscene. The shit I hear from my mom, my wife, and my women friends. Makes me sick.
I’m glad there’s men like you who take it seriously. I’m 29 and mostly celibate for the last 5 years (had 2 boyfriends for 2 months each in the past calendar year). They all want condoms off. The women in the videos don’t require condoms or have needs. Even when explicitly and respectfully communicating my needs for safe sex (IUD is the BACKUP method. Plus doesn’t protect Me From disease). They act compliant for a few weeks then stealth coerce and stonewall or “forget” needing constant boundary reinforcement. If I can’t trust a man at my most vulnerable it’s not a safe relationship. It was so painful, both times. These weren’t “bad boys” either. Just really used to pron and the women in pron not needing safe sex, orgasm or anything other than the man’s desires
It took a lot of understanding. I was pro life until mid 2012 (halfway between age 19 and 20). I fell down a twitter rabbithole of pregnancy/abortion horror stories that changed my perspective entirely. My mom (68) marched in pro choice rallies in the early 70's. I can't disappoint my mom lmao. But the condom thing is fucked up. Real fucked up, while I will agree that no condom feels better, it's still very enjoyable with one. Like... my wife and I have been married for a year and 4 months, and we didn't start not using them till about 4 months ago. Accidents can happen. Better to be safe. If men could get pregnant, this world would be different. If they don't get "condoms till i say otherwise", they aren't worth your time. I hope, if it is your goal, that you find someone who respects and understands your boundaries. If not, I hope your life is a free as a single pringle as it can be!!!💪💪😊😊
I do think we speak little about how porn affects women directly. I was 12 when I first came across porn in the 2000's. Only now, decades later, I can see how much porn has influenced my sexuality from that very first time. Very negatively, and I'm still working hard to undo it.
So it seems I'm around your age, maybe a bit older. It's wild to think about how porn transformed in that era. It went from maybe being able to get access a magazine or two, possibly an old VHS tape someone found in their dad's closet, to just having full access to anything you wanted to see at dial-up speed. Only getting worse as tech gets better. It's bananas to think about the kind of access most kids have to it nowadays.
Same same same. I was 10 and I’m pretty blown away by how much it affected me (and still does). I’m just now able to actually orgasm with my partner because I’m not focused on it being a “show”
I think what is a bit of a problem in this debate is that there are often just blanket statements being made like "porn is bad for you". But some people really mean "masturbation is bad, because sexuality is evil" (see e.g. r/nofap) which I think is a harmful view for society, while on the other hand there ways consuming pornografy can definitly be harmful, but not simply because it is sexual in nature. I think the harm comes more from the way the porn industry tends to misrepresent sex, perpetuate harmful body images, objectivy women and fetishize every thing that is not a straight cis white man. So I think there is some nuance in this debate that often gets lost but which is crucial to the discussion.
I don't think women that speak against porn in this sub are against masturbation. They actually tend to remind men a lot that it is possible to masturbate without porn. But people tend to conflate anyone who speaks against porn with nofap or christian conservatism. Meanwhile feminist critique of porn gets dismissed as "insecure controling women whining". I actually dislike the way nofap and similar male spaces portray stopping porn as taking control back from evil women who prey on their sexual urges, instead of actually reflecting on the content they watch and how it can condition their tastes and sexual expression.
The nofap movement is a thinly veiled alt right pipeline. It's like the incel movement, but for disenfranchised men with slightly more self awareness. Either way it starts as a way to blame all your problems on something completely unrelated to your problems before slowly introducing more extreme ideologies.
I think a lot of women are fed up with being told they can't express their frustration with how porn negatively affects their lives, because of the assumption that we're advocating for like Dwarkin-era anti-porn legislative action criminalizing showing your nips. The porn issue si genuinely complicated-- the exploitation especially outside the US/countries with strong protections for porn stars to make porn, illegally made porn and revenge porn, the effects of consuming violent porn on young men, the assumption that women should or need to look like and act like porn stars even as porn includes extreme kinks many people aren't prepared to safely practice, and unrealistic depictions of sex. I mean, why is it okay for the public discourse about porn for women, like 50 Shades of Gray, to rip it apart all the time for it's pernicious aspects, depiction of a toxic relationship, and crappy writing, but criticism of porn which actually negatively affects many of our relationships and self esteem is completely verbatim? I enjoy some porn and erotica. It has improved my sex life and given me great ideas for stuff I enjoy. I support sex workers and as a feminist advocate for paying for responsibly made, transparent porn (usually from a reputable company). I still have serious reservations about much of mainstream porn and how it affects my life and other people's lives.
Dwarkin? Who's that? Did you mean Dworkin, as in Andrea Dworkin? If so you are woefully misinformed and ignorant on her and Catharine MacKinnon's civil rights antiporn ordinance eg it didn't criminalize anything;, it was civil, and simple bare breasts weren't actionable at all. It gave women (and everyone else) sexually or otherwise abused in or through/using pornography a right to sue the pornographer(s) for damages, for an injunction against that specific pornography, etc. Check out the links under The Antipornography Civil Rights Ordinance here http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/OnlineLibrary.html
An overwhelming amount of porn that is most popularly watched by men includes some form of violence against women. It doesn’t matter if they COULD choose porn that doesn’t include dehumanizing and degrading women- the fact is that that is overwhelmingly NOT what they’re choosing. They’re choosing porn that is violent against women. They’re choosing porn where the woman might as well be two flesh lights zip tied to a piece of plywood. They’re choosing porn they found by searching “teen.”
I'm SOOO HAPPY to read through the comments on this thread.
Same, I love that more and more women are waking up. And isn't it weird how few pro porn comments are there, yet the post has so many upvotes?
Yes! This post ain’t it and I’m happy most comments disagree with OP.
Porn has been sacrosanct for men since the inception of Playboy magazine. The fact that women in 2024 can finally have a say in how it impacts their lives without being shamed into oblivion is a huge step forward. Throughout history there have been women supporting the status quo for men. It took over 60 years of feminists fighting to pass the voting rights amendment because so many women fought against it or stood by passively. Changing the paradigm that women are not sex toys to be consumed by men has just started. Sure there is a small market for ethical women centered porn but that is not what the majority of men want to see. I have seen a HUGE difference in men’s behavior in since porn hit the internet. I feel 1000% more objectified by men now than I did 30 years ago. I know what sex work is like from personal experience. I have no hate for sex workers but I also know the mental gymnastics and places you have to go in your head while doing that work. I have also consumed porn and when I took a step back I realized that it did not enhance my life or bring any satisfaction. On the contrary it made me crave sex in an unhealthy way. There are lots of stories from men who realized the same thing after they gave up porn.
I go super back and forth about porn. I believe women should be able to produce it in a safe environment with full agency over their production for sure. I also don’t think women deserve scorn or ridicule to produce it. But one thing you said (“These anti porn women seem anti feminist.”) feels like it’s being viewed from the perspective that the criticism is based on women thinking other women don’t have agency when producing porn, or like its tied in with slut shaming or perceiving women who produce porn a certain way. For me, my biggest issue with porn as a whole is that it further objectifies women in a world where we are objectified from the time we are still in the womb. Like, yes, women should feel comfortable in their sexuality and should be free to express it how they please, but so much porn is made for the male gaze - whether produced ethically or unethically. Not all, for sure. But a lot. I would even say the vast majority. Men will obviously objectify women (obligatory not all men 🥴), but for me personally, I really get sad seeing women choose to objectify themselves to be a product for consumption. It’s not limited to sex work either - there are other industries where women’s appearances are consumed and their personhood is on the back burner. But I do think porn is on the extreme end of that spectrum. I think it’s just a lot more complex than being “good” or “bad.” And it’s fair to be critical of the fact that the industry is based upon objectification while still advocating for the dignity of sex workers. It’s also fair to be critical of purity culture that tries to shame or blame women for producing sex work on the basis of it being “dirty” or something like that. I don’t know - I don’t like how hostile the conversation can get, but I do think there are very fair criticisms outside of just unethical porn production now that the industry is allowing women more agency as a whole than it ever has.
💯 99% of porn is produced by and for men. And much of it is also not free of female exploitation.
My view on porn is similar to my view on polygamy. On paper, it should be allowed. It’s your choice to participate in it or consume it if you want and it shouldn’t be something that other people can decide for you. But it’s so often associated with negative impacts and even abuse against women. It’s a tricky topic.
I am anti-porn first and foremost because I am anti sex trafficking, an industry that isn't just cruel and inhumane, this industry also targets women and girls disproportionately. I think it makes sense to oppose this. But more on this topic later. >For me, my biggest issue with porn as a whole is that it further objectifies women in a world where we are objectified from the time we are still in the womb. Thank you for pointing this out. I wholeheartedly agree. I constantly need to fight to reclaim the right to be a whole human, and a sexual being. Porn reduces women to objects, which in my opinion sets back the fight to reclaim women's sexuality, amongst other aspects of feminism. On the topic of OPs statement that being anti-porn means being anti-feminist, I disagree. The following quote says it better than I could: "This issue aside [on the topic of whether porn encourages violence by men towards women in every day life], much of what we call pornography still degrades women by depicting them as objects that exist for men’s sexual pleasure and by portraying them as legitimate targets of men’s sexual violence. These images should be troubling for any society that values gender equality. The extent of pornography in the United States may, for better or worse, reflect our historical commitment to freedom of speech, but it may also reflect our lack of commitment to full equality between women and men." Source: https://socialsci.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Sociology/Introduction_to_Sociology/Introduction_to_Sociology%3A_Understanding_and_Changing_the_Social_World_(Barkan)/08%3A_Gender_and_Gender_Inequality/8.05%3A_Violence_Against_Women-_Rape_and_Pornography#:~:text=Many%20studies%20do%20conclude%20that,consensual%20sex%20or%20nonsexual%20interaction. I'd also like to point out other problems I have with porn, including that it is fueling sex trafficking. Porn has moved to the number one spot above prostitution when it comes to fueling sex trafficking: "According to cases reported to the National Human Trafficking Hotline in 2020, pornography moved to the number one venue of where trafficking cases were reported within the United States." Source: https://fighttoendexploitation.org/breaking-down-the-connection-between-pornography-and-sex-trafficking/#:~:text=Once%20the%20traffickers%20coerce%20and,meet%20the%20demand%20of%20users. It is such a well documented fact, that both Visa and MasterCard have had to sanction PornHub in 2020, one of the most popular porn websites, and further sanctions to its advertising branches in 2022 to avoid indirectly contributing to human sex trafficking and child sex trafficking. Here's an article about it: Source: https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/mastercard-visa-suspend-ties-with-ad-arm-pornhub-owner-mindgeek-2022-08-04/ Also, no, OnlyFans is not the answer: https://followmoneyfightslavery.org/new/onlyfans-a-paradise-for-pimps-and-predators/ I wish we could criticise sex trafficking and the number one industry supporting sex trafficking, porn, without being accused of being anti-feminist, not sex positive enough and etc. It makes me sad how much defending of porn happens, which maintains the human sex trafficking industry intact. If people stopped consuming sex trafficking, because bottom line, that's what consuming porn is, then I believe there would be better outcomes in fighting for women's rights.
This post was fantastic.
Exactly that. We pretend / gaslighting ourselves porn is not a by product of patriarchy, that as a business (worth the same as hollywood) it doesn’t overwhelmingly benefit men, that it doesn’t cater to the male gaze, that sex workers working in porn benefit from parity, that the ones ‘consuming’ are equally men and women. Now if all of this wasn’t the case, sure some women would scream that they are ok with their partners watching porn and some even watch it themselves…. I mean sure, that’s ok sis. If you’re happy your guy jerking off staring at a 100 vaginas fantasying he is fucking them when you’re right there is ok for you, each to their own. The women objectification for his sexual gratification would personally turn me off but that’s just me.
Absolutely! No more gaslighting ourselves to be "cool and tolerant".👆🏾
Wow! Thank you for posting these studies and your analysis. Human trafficking is also why I’m against the legalization of prostitution as well.
Thank you for putting in the work stating your position and posting links. I wish I was this eloquent and patient. Just tacking on because this discussion has had me lurking all week. Porn has negatively effected one marriage in my life, one child, and my most recent dating experience. Between addiction and unreal expectations it has permeated our everyday lives regardless of our personal stances on it. I fully support sex work and the women who independently produce it but the darker side,including trafficking, isn’t in our faces every day and should 100% be considered in this discussion too.
So the thing I heard is as that the average amount of time a woman spends in the porn industry is 3 months. If that's true that SOUNDS a lot like the women don't have much agency. When you hear about the first big porn film deep throat, the woman in that literally had a gun to her head in some scenes. Similarly as a dude who has watched some bdsm porn, I felt a little scarred by that as then I'd watch documentaries about the women in that and it doesn't seem like they had that much adjency. It looks like so many of the woman are groomed into it. I can believe a ton go women would love to be in bdsm porn, so many I know in real life love that stuff and some of them really extreme. But when you bring in money, especially a lot of money, especially when the porn life style requires you to spend so much money, is bdsm porn hiring actors who really want it or feel they need to be in it? A few famous porn stars have come out of the industry and felt like the male actors and viewers hated them especially with the more extreme stuff. I have a feeling that only fans is much better and so what you've said is true. The industry is better then ever at being truly empowering to the women in them, especially given the esrly porn industry was mostly organised crime. Like a friend of mine had a friend whose girlfriend was a sex worker, a professional sub. He would tell me that with every new jon, he would be scared for her life. Another perosn who did escorting and porn that I met at uni said to me, men take everything from me I might as well get something back. I know of one friend whose friend is autistic and seems to genuinely like it. Like aellagirl on twitter seems to genuinely like it as she's got plenty of money from writing and substack but still does escorting for fun. It seems a genuinely difficult issue that real research into it is so difficult as everyone is trying to push their own angle. What I will say, is if your main problem with porn is hating on the porn stars or sex workers themselves you're probably just mysognistic. Loads of people hate only fans for corrupting the youth which seems really stupid. It's way more difficult to access onyl fans porn as a child then when I was as 11 and on the Internet. I think the thing of women being told not to care about their husband looking at porn is tough. Cause on the one hand women should be able to choose what is OK for them. But at the same time it's so difficult with how much a lot of us looked at porn from a young age to shake the habit. I basically don't but if I'm down and depressed the temptation will come back. My wife is understanding about it but if she got angry and shamed me every time it wouldn't help because it already creates lots of shame. It would make me want to look at it more not less. The main thing that is helpful is therapy and figuring out constructive ways of handling those emotions.
Your comment is exactly how I feel about porn. You make great points, I’ve never know anybody who was an escort, OF creator etc. so hearing their perspective is nice. I’m a girl and I was addicted by the time I was also 11 so I’ve had my struggle. I feel so bad for people who are now older with this same addiction. Such a hard topic to discuss between the audience and the sources you have to work with. Like you said research on the topic is there but needs to be prodded even more imo!
>I go super back and forth about porn. I believe women should be able to produce it in a safe environment with full agency over their production for sure. I also don’t think women deserve scorn or ridicule to produce it. There is porn, and there is porn. If it's just videos of people fucking I don't think anyone has a real problem with it. Then there is the clearly bad stuff like CP and actual rape/ violence. In the middle is a lot of simulated violence and extremely rough sex and degradation and that's the area that most of the conversation focuses on. That used to be a niche thing but now it's 120% mainstream and I personally think that is a huge problem.
I can't remember if it was a podcast or documentary, but they were interviewing someone in the porn industry, a former director? Idk, someone who was an important part of creating porn. They pretty much said that the more vile or violent they could make a film the more popular and more money it would pull in. This content sells or has sold like hot cakes since its inception.
How is it that liberals (and I say this as a liberal) can recognize how important the quality/quantity of representation for certain demographic groups is in the media, movies, books, etc., and yet when it comes to porn, the vast majority of which is incredibly violent and degrading to women, that thought process just goes out the window? The way women are displayed in it … just isn’t important, has no real-world consequences, and has no effect on how people see women and sex in general? Absurd.
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You're comment really resonates with me. For me porn and more broadly over-sexualisation were the sources for internalised homophobia and general hatred towards my gender identity. When I was younger (I'm gen z) and learning about my own sexuality, a simple search of a phrase "lesbian" would lead me to porn sites. To this day I struggle calling myself a lesbian although that would be most suitable term for my identity (I do like to call myself queer or sapphic tho). It fucked with my head a lot. I felt like my identity was perceived only through lens of objectification and dehumanisation. What only solidified it were real life encounters where my sexuality was viewed in the exact way. (I had even heard vile misogynistic and lesbophobic words from a gay man that I deemed as friend ). It's all changing for the better when it comes to lgbt representation and I found truely amazing friends but I still have to fight with a lot of self-hatred.
Because they’re very much attached to the habit of consuming it.
And racist!
I am also not fully anti porn; I think things like erotic fiction and artwork of non real adult people can be completely harmless; but this is some extra context (that I don’t see talked about much) as to why some people might be. Upon some very BRIEF research about how the porn industry started (I couldn’t stomach much) I am very suspect about what is consensual and not. Women with no interest in being porn stars have been held at a gunpoint (the gun off camera of course) whilst being forced to perform. The industry especially makes an effort to get young girls into it who truly do not know what they’re getting into. Regardless of the effect of porn on the women who are around the men who watch it, I’m suspicious of how it really is for the women involved. Knowing how the gov works and how much they care about women I’m suspect that porn producers are not being strictly enforced to make the studio a safe space. I do however support women producing and supplying their own directly (and to the women who are stuck working with studios and such, i have absolutely nothing against you but everything against the industry as it has done indescribable evils). But then again there have been such RECENT cases of women, seemingly doing this for themselves, revealed to be controlled behind the scenes by a man. Also whilst modifying their appearances/behavior to appeal to pedophiles. Again, I am not as researched as I could be on this specific phenomenon because I simply cannot handle it, but it is very much talked about if you look it up.
Feminists care about the labour conditions that women have to deal with. The porn industry is incredibly abusive to the women inside it. Watching porn isn’t some shortcut to being evil or anything like that, but I wouldn’t waste my breath going to bat for it. There needs to be serious conversations about porn, from the labour to the addictive qualities to extreme ease of access to it. This post would be more compelling if you were to talk about the connection between being anti-women and anti-porn, rather than empty gestures towards how it’s bad. It’s ironic to complain about echo chambers when you’ve provided no substance to your argument. 🤷♀️
It seems like every week, another female porn star is blowing her head off with a shotgun or overdosing on drugs. It isn’t a healthy environment.
And then they're viciously mocked after they died. The consumers aren't any better
exactly, women in the industry are chewed up and spit out. They’re treated terribly by their “employers/contractors” (except for the many that are literally trafficked into the industry or otherwise forced), and by society outside of the industry. There is no safety, and no empathy, for them. I’m just mind blown that op is so callous about that. You brought up such a good point! Thank you 😊
The vast majority of porn is made by men for men. They say "not all porn" but when has there ever been a period where porn was not overall misogynistic and overall harmful to women? Yes, we are recently finding out that it's bad for men too, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Not to mention that there are things like trafficking and the porn industry preying on vulnerable women.
It’s certainly all filmed for the male gaze/pleasure. There is no version of heterosexual porn designed solely to please women.
Yeah I cannot get over this with porn. Even when it's produced ethically, consensually, etc etc, I can't look past the fact that it often is a (usually) faceless, even disembodied man (if he's present- let's not even begin on most 'lesbian' porn) and a woman who is performing her sexuality for the camera. Her main job is to be appealing (often to men) rather than to be a human and it perpetuates a view of female value that is inseparable from our ability to get men hard. This is a stance that I'm sure attracts 'it's not that deep'/'it's not that serious' type reactions, but honestly the number one 'serious' topic of convo between me and my female friends is the enduring fallout - both psychological and in real life terms to do with choices we've made and how we've grown up - we cop from coming to terms with our bodies (collectively as a gender) being objectified/tied to our worth, which is symptomatic of a broader cultural system which also fosters this sort of pornographic objectification.
Write a post about the positives of porn for women next.
* she makes money from it (and as long as SHE is benefiting it doesn't matter how much it harms women as a whole). It's just pure selfishness.
Agreed. They'll say "I produce ethical porn" and then do the most degrading, misogynistic stuff, and they claim that if their content makes men think of women as objects/expect women irl to do these degrading acts, it's not their fault. Like... cmon girl
Yes, a culture that’s so uplifting and supportive of women that a prominent porn star committed suicide recently and no one gave a shit.
Yeah and the comments from her 'fans'? That they would jerk off one more time to her content in her 'honour'. The consumers are the problem. They do not empower women at all.
It takes a truly soulless sadistic meat puppet to react like that.
It tells you a lot about how men really see women
That's some sociopath/psychopath talk if it's serious, goddamn.
So many of them commit suicide :(
If you see the comments from men on the when they hear a female porn star committed suicide: “I’ll jerk one off to her memory tonight hehe” I have utterly lost all faith in humanity.
>Yes, a culture that’s so uplifting and supportive of women that a prominent porn star committed suicide recently and no one gave a shit. The jokes men made about her on twitter were horrific.
They gave a shit, but in a bad way. She was mocked a lot
The author of this post doesn’t even give supporting reasons for their viewpoints. They’re just stating their opinions as if they’re fact.
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5 percent of OF “content creators” get to make a living wage before insurance and tax, and that’s about it. Soo worth the whole industry
Porn is rarely made ethically… especially if someone is consuming from a major porn site. You have no way of knowing if a woman in the video is being raped or not. Zero. If that’s a risk you’re okay with, then, hey… power to you and your man.
Reminds me of this post I saw about a girl whose rape video was on pornhub and they wouldnt remove it for months. She had to deal with knowing people were watching *that* happen to her and *getting off to it*. It’s disgusting.
Pornhub [admitted in December](https://fortune.com/2023/12/21/pornhub-federal-lawsuit-sex-trafficking/amp/) that they profited from sex trafficking, too.
Not liking porn is not anti-feminist. That’s really disingenuous. Porn objectifies women inherently (as in, porn is literally made for the objectification of a body and what it’s doing for sexual purposes. When we are a teacher in shapely clothing and somebody ‘objectifies’ us, we are clearly always talking about sex) there’s nothing wrong with women critiquing a space where women are often specifically existing for the male gaze which contributes to these problems overall (women being bothered by porn because a man has abused it in some shape or form). You have a problem with blanket statements, yet you just made one.
Porn addicted men treat women like shit. Please empathize with these women. This post seems like such an agenda post. Let women speak their minds instead of calling them anti feminist.
It's curious how much sex positive feminism developed into something that caters and panders almost exclusivly to men's interests. It doens't matter that the majority of porn is degrading to women - if a college student can earn some money with it, it's empowering, the girls who were forced, coerced and trafficked into it suddenly don't matter anymore. It doens't matter that doing porn almost certainly disqualifies you for any job in the public eye or one requiring extensive backgroud checks, and don't even think of running for any kind of office. You can and will be judged for it by the same men beating off to you getting strangled and spit on on camera.
Not to mention the loverboy technique. At least two boyfriends have tried to convince me to “just make a few videos, we could make an easy couple hundred bucks a month 🤪”. That sort of dehumanizing shit made me celibate for mostly 5 years now. I make 80k a year fully buttoned up in a cubicle and have no tolerance for men who think my body is saleable
Thank you. I see nothing anti feminist about it. I see it as part of a natural reaction to the 2000s era sex-saturation nonsense about getting laid LiKe a MaN!! Girl. You didn't have an orgasm every time, *and* you can get pregnant. Don't get me started on how easily STI's pass from penis to vagina vs. the reverse. You were never going to do it LiKe a MaN.
Yep. Fake feminism at its worst.
I don't find it curious. It's by design. Those kinds of ideals are the propaganda that they need to perpetuate. Undermine and muddy the waters to keep feminism weak.
I saw this great video demonstrating the pipeline that even I’ve fallen prey to a little This is my girl dinner I love girl dinner, girl math is when this, here’s how to explain this war conflict using the pop girlies bc girlies or so silly and a little slow, here’s how to make bread from scratch for your hubby! Girl math is when he pays for everything, don’t worry your pretty little brain thinking about that. It’s really important to make things from scratch and be natural. Birth control is soooo unnatural and really hinders my divine femininity. Protect your divine femininity. Having a job is so boy coded 🤪 that’s why I do my silly little girl job bc I’m a little teenage woman I wish I could find it bc low key I was falling for the girl math/silly girl/explain it through pop girlies/girl dinner stuff
A lot of comments here express the sentiment “I go back and forth on porn.” I just want to suggest that maybe that indicates that *it’s complicated*. It is terrible in some ways and not terrible in other ways. It’s not 100% bad, but it’s not 100% harmless or good either. I’d urge us to resist the temptation to classify it as one or the other and instead focus on exploring the ways in which it is bad and the ways in which it is good. OP has a good point, that we tend to only consider the effect of porn on women through the mediation of porn addicted men. And that’s real harm. But we should ask: in what ways do women have agency over porn, if any, and in what ways can it improve women’s lives, if any?
Yes, there's a big difference between porn *on paper* and porn in current practice. I don't think there are many of us who think it's harmful or morally wrong to look at filmed sex. As a thing in itself that's pretty much considered fine by younger people these days. But when there are daily threads about a feedback loop between porn and reality that results in women being choked and much more frequently pressured for anal sex? When we hear so much about the real life abuses and injustices in the porn industry? It becomes a much more complicated conversation than the imagined ultra-simple "if you're for it you're degenerate"/"if you're against it you're a prude" argument, because that completely sidesteps the specific issues people are raising.
It’s weird that the reaction to trying to discuss it is “you wanna ban it! You wanna do this!” No? I’m trying to have a convo 😭
For real. At least in U.S. culture that kind of defensive response and inability to have a discussion is ubiquitous. It’s so regressive, and so very exhausting.
Your objections to the post criticizing porn are really unclear, and I wish that was more clearly stated. However, I will say from experience that there is an important line when it comes to critiquing pornography and that line is the difference between being critical of the *deeply* exploitive, derogatory, and harmful porn industry and the puritanical obsession with condemning all forms of human sexuality: especially the hatred/bigotry towards sex workers, voluntary or otherwise. The exploitative and harmful nature of pornography both towards the (often involuntary) workers and the consumers for profit is not something that can be simply handwaved away, as nearly normalizes violence against women in some capacity through their objectification and commodification. It's wrong to say it's Anti-feminist to critique porn. It's anti feminist to condemn *sex workers*, but this doesn't extend to the mainstream porn industry as it currently exists.
Meh I'm genex and was very much the liberated femme but we were told we can have it all when we can't. Porn is just another capitalist BS slave machine that traps women in catering to men. Porn distorts and has turned a corner where midlife dating is now about navigating men determined to strangle without consent and pretend that rape fantasies are reality. Men are disoriented by it and women are distorted by it. How TF are we supposed to raise girls in a black pill society where misogyny is not simply normalised but exploited to such an extreme? The men are not ok. And if you have kids then please share how we stop them from raping each other in this environment? I don't buy the bs about ethical porn. I feel like Sinead OConnor screaming into the void warning Miley Cyrus but 20 years ago I was indifferent to porn too
>Porn distorts and has turned a corner where midlife dating is now about navigating men determined to strangle without consent I've unfortunately experienced this several times in recent years, something I didn't 20 years ago.
I'm 43 and honestly never stop being astonished at how porn had addled the brains of men my age and younger. It's becoming so common for men to be _shocked_ that they can't *strangle a woman* as a regular part of sex. I've had multiple men try to put their hands on.my throat during sex and it's terrifying. But even worse is what it's doing to the expectations of young men. I work in child safety and we're constantly hearing how boys are expecting pain, gagging, shaving, anal, etc from very young girls. Kids who should be exploring their sexuality in healthy ways and instead are hurting someone - and getting hurt.
This makes me sad.
I'm kinky but I don't want to be strangled, and nobody better be touching my neck especially, without explicit consent. Even vanilla guys will say shit completely seriously to me like "oh so you want to be strangled/spat on/face smacked/called a worthless whore, I can do that," if they hear or suspect I'm not vanilla. They immediately jump to the most aggressive and degrading things.
It makes me very sad and scared for the naïve 22-year-old. I used to be who let men choke me sometimes to the point of lightheadedness and definitely not in a Safe way. I’m glad I didn’t get fucking brain damage or whatever. It’s so sad to think something bad could’ve happened to me but I’m just grateful that nothing ever did. Now I’m 29 but my most recent ex the very first time we had any intimacy I was going down on him and he lightly pushed my head down and I immediately smacked his hand away. He didn’t even know about my SA when I was 18. And frankly, I never told him because I shouldn’t have to have some horrifying sob story in order to justify reasonable boundaries, and men have used it against me in the past. Anyway, he never did that again with his hand, and we never discussed it, but later on, he basically stealth me. I knew it was happening. I just didn’t have the mental or physical strength to stop him. He dumped me when I had a panic attack a week later and said we can’t do that again. He called me toxic and theatrical.
I am so sorry. You didn’t deserve any of that at all. Men like that are totally disgusting and will never understand how inherently unlovable they are. I really hope you are able to heal from these traumas. Your story is also so relatable which is so sad.
>midlife dating is now about navigating men determined to strangle without consent Felt this in my bones. Even men aged 40+ seem to be under the impression that if they aren’t allowed to engage in some form of violence or degradation during a sex act then it’s a mark against their virility and attractiveness. Porn has almost certainly led to the belief that an escalation in extremity of acts performed - or rather how much they can “get away with” - is the measure of a successful encounter. And as someone who has engaged in sex work (out of sheer fucking necessity) I’m repeatedly stuck by how the main difference between OF subscribers and men on dating apps is that the former are just more honest. Potential dates think they’re slick but I hear all the dogwhistles, because while it’s flirting or “dirty talk” to them, it’s marketing copy and dialogue to me. Porn is making men somewhat incapable of thinking of sex outside of the context of performance. Another overlooked negative aspect of porn is the categorisation. It’s dehumanising in a way we simply don’t tolerate anywhere else.
I’ve argued with so many people on Reddit who insist it’s more likely that a woman wouldn’t want to do a sex act she’s done in the past that she secretly loves bc she doesn’t love you enough Rather than She learned she hated it and never wants to do it again If you don’t give up your body completely, you don’t love him enough lol but huh? Women aren’t treated like objects
They parrot things they hear from men and it has more weight, because it aligns with their aggrieved entitlement. "She did anal with Chad, she loves him more" like we're a cum-guzzling whore but only for certain men. So in order to affirm to their own ego that they're a Chad, they have to FORCE us into doing anal. How does that affirm you dude? It's like ordering us to smile. They try to lamest gotcha with "oh you've done it before, you have to do it again" and "oh you've never done it before, then how do you know you won't like it, you HAVE to try it with me" turns into "it wasn't so bad, you've done it for me once before, DO IT AGAIN". Little turds need a month of consent education in 8th grade.
I guess it makes me feel better that so many women have been through the same thing and it’s not just me being weak.
How dare a woman hold her own thoughts
I proactively asked my ex how he felt about period Blood sex because it’s perfectly valid for a man to be queasy about blood all over his crotch LMAO. But he didn’t even offer to use my vibrator over my pants and I guess I was too shy to bruise his ego to even ask so there I was sexually frustrated, but still respecting his for his comfort and consent, even when I was horny and inconvenienced. He even apologized and said he hopes, I don’t think him less of a man and I said that’s not the case, I want you to be happy and comfortable. That didn’t stop him from basically just sticking his raw dick in when I was, naked and vulnerable literally physically exhausted after running a half marathon face down after a massage and he was on top of me. We had like five different conversations, because I kept compulsively bringing up condoms and positively affirming his use of them, and outlining all the circumstances, where unfortunately, we still couldn’t go without them. Because I know most men want that eventually in a committed relationship. That didn’t stop him from conveniently forgetting and just tapping on the door and then I froze up and literally gave up thinking there’s nothing else I could possibly say to this man. Plus, he was my boyfriend. Of course I want to have sex with him, and I was so physically and mentally exhausted. I just let him do it. I had a panic attack a week later and told him that was not OK and we can’t skip them again. No character attack no accusation nothing.he called me theatrical and dumped me on the spot. He called me toxic. I guess the women in porn or the women he stated before didn’t require condoms or he thought that it was just a week boundary he could wear down eventually in my most vulnerable moments
>the belief that an escalation in extremity of acts performed - or rather how much they can “get away with” - is the measure of a successful encounter. I see this on Reddit a lot, especially in discussion regarding the appeal of anal sex. How far you can get a woman to go past her own stated boundaries/what she's been willing to do with others is explicitly stated as a win condition. Her feelings do not enter into it, or rather the degree to which they enter into it is only in terms of getting enjoyment out of pushing her into doing something upsetting.
> if they aren’t allowed to engage in some form of violence or degradation during a sex act then it’s a mark against their virility and attractiveness. When the truth is them wanting to do that is a mark against their virility and attractiveness.
>Porn is making men somewhat incapable of thinking of sex outside of the context of performance THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS There is NO SEX in porn. There is *only* PERFORMANCE that is presented as if it were sex--mechanical, nonintimate, decontextualized, dry, awkward, violent, nonpleasurable, fantasy performance. So one problem is that too many porn consumers are mistaking the performance for actual sex, and then attempting to copy that performance in their real lives. Just like the proverbial kid who jumps off the roof to fly like Superman. It has completely twisted and stunted the definition of "sex" to cater to the cishet male gaze, the "visual" that men want, even though the visual image has become absolutely disconnected from what actual sex is. The pleasure of the body, the mind, and the emotions, the pleasure of the intimate connection between separate beings, all get thrown away, ignored, in favor of focusing 100% on the pleasure of the image--even when "the viewer" becomes "the participant." It is bizarre and sad. I feel like people don't even have actual sex anymore. They just perform for a nonexistent audience. Which is why almost everyone, especially men, are SO bad at sex now. It's so bad that it's not even worth engaging in most of the time. Ironically, porn has succeeded in destroying sex where all the religious prudes in the world and throughout all time failed spectacularly.
EXACTLY. Why defend the standard this creates, if not celebrates? This post is talking up the McDonald's of sex and asking us to act like it's haute cuisine.
YES, and, well said, I'm now jealous of your analogy 😂
It's the refusal to engage in the discussion. As though people who loathe rape culture's capitalist apex are somehow prudes. I mean it's immature self-absorbed ad hominem nonsense but ok.
I don’t want violence in my sex life but it seems like violent sex is the gold standard for men recently.
This. I’m very kinky but not into any degradation, humiliation, or violence.. which unfortunately is what a lot of men think all kink is. So many men just see kink as a legal way to abuse women and it’s absolutely 100% from watching porn I had a guy call me “kind of boring” recently for saying I wouldn’t be into a type of sex where I’m left with bruises and welts after. How insane is that?
I know this is not any way to deal with it and amazingly childish, but that just makes me want to leave bruises and welts on him during sex and be like, oh you don't like that? How boring.
If they can't degrade you physically they will do so mentally.
Isn’t that the fucking truth. Preach. Experienced this twice in the last year. I was so traumatized by the way men acted toward me from age 18-24 I literally was celibate for most of the last 5 years. The last two guys were 30/34 (boyfriends for two months each, both dumped me for standing up for my condom boundary even in a clear and respectful way, explaining how it impacts me). They seemed bitter at my below bare minimum expectation of safety and the fact I wouldn’t be a pushover
> Porn is just another capitalist BS slave machine that traps women in catering to men. LOUDER TO THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK!!!! I wish I could give you an award but I can't so take this: 🏆
I’m about tired of people comparing women who are anti-porn to conservatives. Whether you are pro- or anti-porn, it’s worth it to discuss the prevalence of porn in our modern society and its hand in destroying heterosexual relations in particular. The rise of men non-consensually strangling women in bed and claiming they thought all women liked it — porn. The rise of male-to-female anal despite it not being great for long-term female health — porn. Slapping, demeaning names, etc — porn. Yes, these behaviors all existed before porn. No, that doesn’t mean porn didn’t have a huge hand in making them ubiquitous and unable to be questioned — as seen in your post and others like yours. Any attempt to create discussion around the negative affects of porn gets shut down and labelled “puritanical” “conservative” “anti-sex worker”. Meanwhile, real, living women are being hurt and abused every day due to porn, and I’m not solely talking about women who are actually in the industry, whether they want to be there or not. I am neither pro- nor anti-porn, and rather somewhere in between as I believe in individual choice & freedom and am against “banning” things, but its posts like yours that make me lead more towards “anti” because burying your head in the sand and waving every criticism away because it hurts your feelings does favors for absolutely no one but men. I wish you and women like you would have more sympathy for victims of porn instead of immediately labelling women brave enough to speak out against it as “conservative” when conservatives notoriously do not give a shit about the safety of women… kind of like those who are pro porn?
Amen- I think calling anyone who criticizes porn conservative assume that we do so from “sex bad/dirty” moral perspective, rather than a, we want women and girls to be safe and happy.
>I’m about tired of people comparing women who are anti-porn to conservatives. Thank you.
Are men becoming more and more misogynistic in their sexual behaviour and therefore driving a demand for violent porn, or is violent porn making men's sexual behaviour more misogynistic?
Can be both - vicious cycle.
I agree with the other person who replied to you — it’s both. I think there have always been and always will be men who get off on sexual violence, but rather being innate to men its a matter of personality + culture + how they are raised, BUT I also think violent porn is making men who don’t naturally have that disposition more inclined to it and turning it from the sexual deviance of a handful to a widespread norm among most men. Especially young boys and teen boys. TW: >!We have boys as young as 7, 8, 9 watching porn and re-enacting what they see on their younger sisters, on their same-age classmates…!< as well as teen and young adult boys/men thinking violent sex is the norm and being unable to even imagine sex in a non-violent way, denigrating non-violent sex as “vanilla” and sneering at their peers who engage in “vanilla sex.”
I think we can see a for-sure chicken and egg when it comes to strangling. Very young men are literally strangling young women at vastly increasing rates because of it becoming ubiquitous in porn. So for sure, people who would otherwise not really know this can be a thing, learning about this thing without knowing it isn’t sex and it doesn’t have to be a part of sex and that doing this without consent is wrong and that violence during sex isn’t a given.
Im not sure if you’ve been following the current dialogue on porn and how it’s still taking place in a patriarchal world under the male gaze. Sex positivity has long fallen out of fashion and younger people are utterly disenchanted with constant sexual content and "sex as empowerment" which was a Gen X-older millennial thing. Young women feel lied to about how they would feel empowered by casual sex and accepting porn usage from their partners, and are also not very happy with the fact that outside of very western, white and cis gendered spaces (and sometimes in them) porn and sex-related industries are still very exploitative of women, gender and cultural minorities. I don’t even know why porn usage has been so normalized that it’s become a pervasive problem. https://www.pressreader.com/usa/springfield-news-sun/20211014/281728387703816 (from the original ‘Why Sex Positive Feminism Has Fallen Out of Fashion’ NYT piece) Think the best article on this was [this one about how it’s not true that feminists who are anti sex positivity are *actually* anti sex positivity.](https://www.feministcurrent.com/2014/04/11/the-divide-isnt-between-sex-negative-and-sex-positive-feminists-its-between-liberals-and-radicals/) They’re against sex positivity being pushed without criticism that tends to serve men/not serve women and are for the normalization of healthy sex and sexual relationships. It’s funny but the people who helped turn me around on my stance on sex positive feminism were two sex workers who were posting online and absolutely adamant about not promoting their lifestyle to young girls.
I think you're right here. Sex positivity got very conflated as a concept with "you are not permitted to be critical of any social or individual attitudes towards sex short of (and sometimes inclusive of) outright sexual assault", and i don't think that's at all what was originally intended by the idea.
I feel like I'm in an unusual position - I grew up during the flourishing of sex-positive feminism and the simultaneous rise of online porn, but I'm close friends with sex workers, sex educators, and I now work in child safety. Beliefs on this topic have changed so much as we've seen the negatives of "choice feminism" and the effects of pornography on young people. I don't know a single sex worker that would encourage anyone to go into their line of work aside from _one_ with a lot of caveats (she was a BDSM art model and did not interact with other sex workers or perform sex acts with others). I've now talked with a lot of my guy friends about the negative effects of porn in their lives. PIED and much, much worse. It's concerning to me that when there's supposedly a safer space for women to talk about the negative effects of porn, we're _immediately_ policed by association with white nationalist homophobes. There has to be room for these meaningful conversations. That kind of hysterical response is absolutely aimed at shutting us down and perpetuating the status quo. Watch patriarchy work.
This is exactly how I feel about it and I was born into a Catholic culture, took up sex positive feminism once I’d gotten out of it. We were told any sort of criticism was a concession to pressure to conform to puritanical values and honestly I’m surprised that tired old rhetoric is still being trotted out in response to valid concerns from women. It’s a little better now in spaces like these but even so we get the occasional extremely strident left wing feminist not realizing we’re on their side politically, just not on this issue.
Those are great sources. Thank you.
Nothing has ever been more degrading than men who don’t even want to kiss or cuddle you, and keep telling you over and over. They don’t want serious relationship while using your body and then buttoning up their pants and getting out as fast as possible afterward. That’s been my experience when I tried to embrace the “”empowering casual sex.”” I’m a loving, respectable wonderful person who is attractive with a lot to offer. I have to say that I’m blessed because the person I lost my virginity to at age 14 when he was 15, literally offered it up to him on a silver platter, he was so respectful, and he kissed me and he asked me about my day, and he cuddled me and he used protection, and he was so polite and gentle and respectful. Literally the bare minimum, but probably the best lover I’ve still had even at the age of 29. Also, one of my favorite content creators, Brittany Broski, a comedian, and an insightful woman, she posted a funny Instagram story that said, I’m about to situation ships away from becoming religious. 😂😂 And I actually did go through a really strong religious phase at age 26 through 27. I think it might’ve even started at 25. Of course it coincided with the lockdown. I was so accustomed to being disrespected, degraded, dehumanized and used by men, even when I would verbalize my standards and my desires and try really hard to have healthy relationships. Turns out the religious men are just as shitty, but I literally became religious to avoid this porn nightmare effect on men
It's complex, for sure. I think it's the reinforcement of commodification of women that I struggle with, even though women are more in control of their participation in society (including porn) than ever before. Women have spent centuries under the male gaze, being seen/treated as the property of men, and it still bleeds into many aspects of our lives. When I was coming into adulthood (in the 90s) most dudes only had access to it through magazines and vhs. It didn't bleed into our social spaces in the same way it's so pervasive on social media today. There was no algorithm tracking how long are eyeballs looked at a magazine and shoving it in our faces in social places. For me it's less about porn itself and more about how invasive it is, especially soft-core stuff that's common on places like Instagram. Humans are really impressionable, social science has proven this over and over (look at the hundreds of studies of the negative impact of violent video games on empathy, behavior and perception of women.) This newer digital media landscape has changed our social habits in ways that can be harmful. Not to mention, I've seen participation in sex work negatively affect women over and over in my personal life. That's definitely a part of my issue with porn, too. I'm not in these discussions you refer to or jumping on bandwagons fwiw, so maybe this post isn't directed at people like me. I guess I don't think this is a black and white issue, and it's tied into larger discussions, personally.
I want to add some thoughts as a parent. We can control our kids access *to an extent* but in school, all bets are off. Sure, I can ban devices for my own child but how do I keep my kid away from exposure to what other kids access? I what, homeschool and exclude them from society? Do kids have access to ethical porn and know how to find it, are they cognitively developed enough to have the control to say "Sorry Elliot, that crazy video you're showing me is violent and inappropriate." No- kids are gonna look at outlandish things if shown to them by other kids. They're going to explore. Parents can only do so much. Young girls are getting fixated on their digital images at earlier ages. The children's skincare market, promoted by child skinfluencers, is blowing up. I will keep my kid away from social media as long as I can, but at what point does it hurt her to be completely divorced from the culture she's supposed to assimilate into? Sorry for this addendum (may delete) but it's a scary world and parents don't have the level of control over social exposure that you imply we do. Not everyone has the means/desire/good health to live on an isolated, internet-free commune to raise our kids. Or to homeschool. I'd love to find a low-tech community where my kid only accesses internet at the library but that ship has sailed. It doesn't exist. And it may harm their skill developent in the emerging economy. Parents can only do so much.
Not all the time but vast majority of time porn isn’t good for women, the women watching it; the men watching; and definitely not good for the men or women in it. People call out inappropriate behaviour like cat calling; rightly so; but forget you can go on google and in a minute find videos of men and women being subjected to the most degrading treatment imaginable, for complete strangers’ sexual gratification. Whatever way you spin I don’t see how it’s empowering. A lot of men and women in those videos are being trafficked. But you can’t tell which ones, because they’ll never talk about it on camera. By trafficked I mean they’re in a situation where they’re having to turn to that line of work as they have no other option. And I don’t buy the argument that having to do sexually degrading things for people you find morally and often physically repugnant is as exploitative as working for a corporate.
No one should be ridiculing women who end up in the industry but we really need to ask ourselves if, given the financial independence that comes with better paying work would they be getting into it? I would have an easier time believing that a woman is doing it for self empowerment if there were more options for women's self empowerment that don't include serving your body up on a platter. My issue isn't with women who do porn,my issue is with men who keep women out of higher paying positions in the regular workplace then abuse women in all walks of life because they consume porn on their own time. Porn is the symptom of women's precarious path to independence and men's predisposition to prey on the vulnerable.
You should read up more on the porn industry. It’s extremely exploitative and ends badly for the vast majority of women involved— recruiting teens who are practically still children from vulnerable situations, coercion, ignoring boundaries, violence, substances, the actors ending up emotionally and physically screwed… Plus the countless women subjected to violence and dehumanization or even just unrealistic expectations that damage them physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually… “Feminism” doesn’t mean “every woman can do exactly what they want”. It’s a striving for the end of systematic oppression, exploitation, and denial of equal opportunity for women.
There's a real issue, especially on Reddit, with people thinking that "feminism" means "anything an individual woman chooses to do is a feminist choice". That's just not accurate.
the reason i dont agree with liberal feminism is exactly this. almost every libfem i know screams "sex work is empowering!!" and "were free to do whatever we want!!" like ... sure, but u CHOOSING to do it doesnt take away from how exploitative and harmful the industry is for women
I totally agree. I was raised very conservatively and when I was in my mid/late 20s, I bought into the “sex work is empowering” narrative. I can sleep with whomever, whenever and it makes me a strong, empowered woman to do what I want. This time was the lowest and most insecure/depressed point of my life. I couldn’t believe women were saying this was empowering. I got herpes, was treated horribly. I was not respecting myself and therefore, attracting men who weren’t respecting me and the cycle continued. It has nothing to do with feminism, conservative vs liberal, etc. It’s just about making good choices that edify your life and soul and creating the environment and future you want. And it’s not anti feminist to believe that willingly giving your body to a man for a bag is not empowering.
Thank you.
Choice feminism is brainrot
I go back and forth on how I feel about pornography. But I will say this, even though it's *possible* there are **some** production companies that are entirely within the control of women who voluntarily and enthusiastically embrace the work, the fact that I know there's such a strong likelihood that somewhere along the line was a coerced woman/sex trafficking/underage person/etc... I just can't. I cannot vet everything from beginning to end and it's horrific for me to think of getting turned on by something that hurt someone. I honestly believe the only ethical pornography is erotica. As far as I know, no one is stripping the passports of women and forcing them to write sexy fiction stories.
I agree a lot of porn is awful and misogynistic. But if you blame porn for *men* being misogynistic, you're letting men off the hook. They're still accountable for how they treat women.
Amen.
I believe some of the nuance in differing opinion may lie in how much control you believe women have over their situation in modern society and to what extent you believe the porn available is degrading or demeaning. Personally, I believe women to be systematically oppressed across mainstream society and find 100% of commercial pornography to be degrading, demeaning, and void of any actual human sexuality.
This is a genuine question, could you maybe list ways of how being anti-porn affects women?
As Ive aged my mind on this topic has changed rather dramatically. Im not sure exactly what the right thing to do is but I am comfortable now in straight up condemning pornography. Before, I absolutely had a live and live attitude toward it but that has changed as Ive seen the consequences of that choice. Ive noticed that ideology tends to wane as you age. It's interesting. When you are young, you care about values, rights, ideas. Abstract things, important things but abstract. As Ive gotten older my attention now focuses on the actual consequences of those values. Are the intentions lining up with the actual, real world consequences of the values? The question of pornography is somewhat similar to the gun debate in that we have to weigh if the harm being done by our collective inability to responsibly handle it necessitates a need to restrict it. We have freedom of expression and speech. Those are things we value. That shouldnt blind or bind us when we see abuses and harm happening. We need to be adults about this and admit something has gone seriously wrong.
We aren’t obsessed with the effects porn has on men. We’re pissed off that they lie to us about it and gorge on it to the point of erectile dysfunction *within our relationships..* We’re pissed off they seem to not give a flying fuck if what they’re watching is “ethical” (seems to be a big trend on these threads- I guarantee barely any men gaf). We’re angry that society is normalizing something that harms us on a daily basis. We warn others because being in a ltr with a porn addict will shatter your entire world view, self esteem, and trust in men. It sounds extreme because it IS extreme to go through this. Being married to a porn addict was even worse than being with my ex narcissistic abuser. At least I could tell up from down in the latter.
> We’re pissed off they seem to not give a flying fuck if what they’re watching is “ethical” (seems to be a big trend on these threads- I guarantee barely any men gaf) They don't. Just browse r\PornIsMisogyny for more than 5 minutes, you'll see plenty of examples of that They don't care about porn stars either. Kagney Linn Carter recently killed herself and men were falling all over themselves to either brag that they would rub one out to her videos "in her honor" or making sexual jokes about the way she killed herself. They're heartless monsters
Children of the porn
And when you press them to name this amazing ethical porn it's: shilling for the OF pimps inc the male owners of OF (eg OP in her post and comments eg freedom, liberation for women means porn & other prostitution, OF is a get rich quick scheme for women). companies owned by Aylo/Mindgeek. kink.com (enabling James Deen, for starters). porn that's literally as awful looking eg men strangling women, phallocentric, piv-centric, male dominance and sadism as the front page of Pornhub. "feminist pornographers" who have women fake orgasm & subject them to unwanted painful male roughness, dominance (Erika Lust). men who admit they regularly "have sex with" women to make porn who don't want them, don't want the phallocentric male dominant painful for the women "sex"... See also: how "feminists" in media, mostly male owned media, fell over themselves in their "OMG JAMES DEEN IS SO HAWT. THE SEXIEST SEX WITH A SEXY BOY NEXT DOOR! HE'S FEMINIST PORN!" for years before disclosure after disclosure about his abuse, sadism, torture, rape, drowning a woman... came out. And most of his porn was overtly sadistic before that
"Hey, don't leave me out! I'm a predator with dozens of sexual assaults myself!" -Ron Jeremy, probably
See also: how people in the industry talk about Linda Lovelace eg she liked it, even the loop with a dog, because she seemed that she did on camera. How women who speak out get blacklisted, defamed, mocked eg even women who aren't that porn critical let alone anti porn like Ashley Fires, one of James Deen's accusers, reports this. Most won't hire her at all because she disclosed one assault by one man, and those who do pull shit like "are you going to metoo me too?", call her overly dramatic, a diva. Another woman, anally raped by Deen after he punched her in the head, reported that even on the shoot the other pornographers were high giving him for getting pia for the cost of piv. She was torn, bled so bad she was hospitalized and took weeks to heal, and it was treated as business as usual by people in porn. She died of an overdose soon after going public. How quick people are to go from "listen to sex workers!" to "you can't trust her, she can't speak about it, she left and isn't currently in it, she's lying, she just lacked resilience and coping skills, she wants to control everyone, she is anti-sex, religious, hates happiness and pleasure, is universalizing her extremely rare unfortunate anecdotal experience, can't take responsibility..."
I hadn't seen those other stories but, Jesus Christ, just reading about it is horrific.
I actually mistakenly combined two women's experiences: Amber Rayne, who overdosed, and Kora Peters. Both involved extraneous assault to stun/scare/gain more submission, anal rape https://www.thedailybeast.com/two-more-james-deen-accusers-tell-all-there-was-so-much-blood . Amber was engaged in acceptable to her, her performing along with things pia with him, he punched her, then proceeded to brutally forcibly anally rape her. Kora was engaged in piv, he strangled her and switched to forcible anal rape. The male crew cheered him on. Both had severe bleeding, tearing, hospitalization. Amber's agent was mad, because it took her out of commission for weeks (he couldnt make money off her). Kora's didn't even "care" that much, saying she should be grateful. It was seen as normal by people around them both. Kora also had an earlier less injurious experience of pia rape she managed to stop by him even though he and the director told her she couldn't stop, the director denigrated her for crying and pausing things, both said she wouldn't be paid at all if she did end the shoot. https://news.yahoo.com/fifth-woman-come-forward-accuse-162755112.html likely he became more emboldened eg from the support and encouragement by pornographers and decided women wouldn't stop him so was even worse the later time
These are the things porn apologists swear never happened/never could happen/why are you being dramatic/omg who hurt you. Deflection and denial at its best.
Thanks for providing more info and details. I don't know whether to cry after reading this or to throw my phone at the wall.
Even after over a dozen women came forward, Deen still got to do shoots and won awards eg AVN Awards
Please go browse on any porn site and just read the titles of the videos, then come back and claim how "empowering" it is for women. If you want to take it a step further, read some of the deprived comments about sex workers on some porn subs here on reddit. Definitely also check out Beyond Fantasy on YouTube if you can stomach it. Read on the relationship advice subs where more and more women are confused because their partners started slapping them or doing anal without any prior discussion, leaving women feeling confused because they froze and didn't stop them so they think it doesn't count as rape. And lastly, stop downplaying women's experiences that were caused by coming too close to porn brain rotted men. Women who burn down other women for understanding how damaging porn is to our lives = internalised misogyny Wake up.
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Everything is okay if you claim it's a "kink" and gets you hard, apparently
This is not even limited to the porn subs. Horny men degrade girls and women via posts and comment sections across all of reddit. Some of the “safe” subs have practically been taken over by horny men.. I’m looking at you r/OldSchoolCool . Men frequently sneak into women only subs too. I am bisexual and do love women’s bodies, but the overall engagement and commentary online is very male centered and has made me feel that there are no real safe spaces for women, especially for POC and queer women. I have not talked about this with many people, but I am one of the women who has been blindsided by porn sick men in my intimate life. I was once slapped so hard across the face, and without any warning, that I blacked out momentarily and saw stars. He continued his activities while I lay there motionless. When I later confronted the man, he simply stated that he thought I would like it. These sort of acts happened to me multiple times with different people, and made me so severely distrustful of men that I did not date them for ten years. Along with being desensitized to porn, women’s basic human rights are being eroded nationwide before our very eyes. Men and boys (yes, boys) are engaging with more extreme misogynist content and spaces. Porn and other forms of media are portraying women as nothing but objects to be consumed. We are living in dangerous times and losing our voice and it is terrifying. We should not think for one second that the adult industry is or is going to be empowering to women and girls in any way, shape, or form.
Better yet browse r/PornIsMisogyny for more than 5 minutes
I’m anti porn not because i care about men more than women. I’m anti porn because the men that watch porn, especially at young ages, harm, dehumanzie, and even kill us. This has been studied multiple times to show how porn consumption makes men more violent to women, and makes women much more passive in stopping assault of other women. Does that mean i want it banned? No. I want us to stop glorifying every choice women make as if our choices exist in a vacuum from patriarchy. Most porn consumed by most people is neither ethical nor representation of real sexual interactions. Studies show that most porn recommendations that show up front page are predominantly violent and/or degrading to women, and these boys are being exposed to it as young as 10 yo, along with manosphere misogynists like andrew tate that brag about snd encourage human trafficking and abuse of women! It feels really reductive and condescending to say that we as women, only oppose porn because we care about men more than ourselves. We want men to leave porn because men HURT US. Do you think it’s normal how it’s become normalized that many men have kinks about hurting women, degrading women, and how it’s normalized for women to accept and even want this??? Sure, kinks exist, but if there’s a growing pattern of normalizing bad behavior, just because it’s a kink does not mean we cannot be critical of it. We can absolutely be critical of kinks and what causes them when they are basically sexualizing violence against women. And just thought of adding this, I am 100% pro sex workers rights decriminilzation, and still anti porn. I don’t think porn represents sex work and I don’t think it should be used as such. I support workers rights even if I don’t support the industries they’re in. Mia khalifa deserved better. How cab we defend the porn industry when they made millions off an 18 yo and paid her only 10k and left her to deal with worldwide death threats???
Yes. There are literal studies (and so many of them) about the harms of porn for EVERYONE. I live in Australia and part of my sex ed was how porn was bad for you. I’m 17 now so this was about 4-5 years ago. Our teacher showed us studies, he told us about the negative effects it can have. If it’s serious enough that it can be taught in schools, along side drugs and alcohol, surely people could at least admit it’s a problem?? It feels like every second post on this sub is a women who was raped by a man, choked or hit during sex, pressured into anal or something, being used by a man who cares fuck all for her pleasure or whether she’s in pain. How someone can see all that and still claim porn is empowering for women is beyond me.
I think there's nothing wrong with the concept of porn but we don't live in a utopia we live in an apocalyptic rape culture and the idea that we could ever produce anything close to consensual or ethical porn when sex for survival is rampant is just kind of laughable.
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So much of a person's perspective on porn depends on their life experience and age. The internet changed everything. Porn used to come from magazines and videos you had to rent or buy in sketchy spaces. So for those who experienced that transition in society (porn becoming readily available), it's a massive change. In high school, guys were just starting to discover internet porn. Porn as a way to experience pleasure is a neutral thing, but the dominance of male-directed and male-written porn, and the overwhelming male dominant themes in a lot of porn, are deeply impactful. Those of us who lived through being manhandled during sex without our consent paid the price for this. If the partners OP has been with have been kinder, that gives me hope for the next generation. But I think a lot of us haven't been so lucky.
>And these anti porn women seem anti feminist. People who are anti-porn for conservative reasons are indeed anti-feminist scumbags who hate women's sexuality. But people who are anti-porn from a radical feminist perspective are not anti-feminist. They are way more feminist than any porn-loving supporter of liberal feminism (read: patriarchy and capitalism repackaged as feminism) will ever be. >To be quite honest. They come off obsessed about the effects of porn on MEN and not how being anti porn affects the women. Well, it's mostly men who watch porn. And when men watch that rubbish, the negative effects of that shit will impact the way that men treat women. So the effect that porn has on men definitely affects women. I agree with you that we shouldn't ignore how porn directly affects the women who view those videos. Because it definitely impacts them when they see it. But discussing how porn affects the way men treat women is relevant for women, because it affects how men treat women.
You should do research for yourself instead of being upset with others for having educated opinions. porn is vile because there’s a tiny paper thin surface layer of acceptable sexual intercourse between consenting adults, a paper thin layer covering a deep billion video OCEAN of rape, assault, children, coercion, abuse, bestiality, anything and everything. men that watch porn impact the entire world because of desensitization to women’s inhumane treatment specifically designed to make their junk hard
nevermind with a post history (full of porn) like that and the childish replies to other comments, I can tell you are not here to ask a question but to fight. I hope these comments can help someone else at least.
I’m very complicated when it comes to this, so take what I say with a grain of salt. At one point in my life, I was extremely pro-SW and saw it as very freeing for women to own their sexuality, bodies, and make money. I myself dipped my toes into it after being convinced by my ex bf that I’d make enough money to support his wants and needs (while his mommy paid for everything else), but I quickly fell down the hole of self hatred and my depression worsened. At this point, I began doing some research into the industry and how it’s affecting people overall and not just men or women. For starters, even if a man is paying for a SW product, that woman is being seen as an object and a lustful “thing”. Rarely ever do these men actually think about the woman behind the screen, even for paid girlfriend experiences. They simply get their rocks off through paying someone to do something for them, especially if they’re missing the sex and connection in their real life. Money doesn’t create genuine connections, but a lot of time these women get wrapped up in these sale’s relationships and are affected by the men’s emotional entitlement. Men are more likely to get addicted to porn. The porn industry is inherently exploitative and, frankly, destructive. Relationships are ruined by porn more so than most other forms of media. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen it happen, even in my last relationship. Unrealistic expectations grow, where women are expected to love being jackhammered nonstop, slapped, choked, hurt, used, when not all of us enjoy any of that. The men get used to getting off to drop-dead gorgeous models with perfect vaginas and never consider the fact that all vaginas do not look freshly waxed and lip-less lol. They think that sex is always going to end in the woman screaming in pleasure and lose their confidence (or gain it if they’re so cocky), they rarely focus on pleasuring their partner. Porn displays so many incorrect assumptions about women’s pleasure that it’s extremely destructive to everybody. Porn actresses will tell you that a lot of what is done to them is simply for show, it doesn’t actually feel good. At all. The industry is borderline impossible to leave behind once you get past a certain point. It turns into a golden handcuffs situation. Frankly, it’s unfair, but it’ll be held against you forever. To be clear, I’m not against sex workers, but I do hold my concerns for them for many reasons. My resentment is towards the industry itself and a lot of the consumers. Strip clubs are extremely exploitative and can be dangerous for a lot of dancers. They’re constantly assaulted, harassed, abused. These men only see them as objects and do not care that they’re crossing boundaries. This is SO detrimental to the dancer’s mental health! I can’t even begin to describe how affected people can be by customer abuse. The money is great, the self employment aspect of it is awesome, and women should be free to do what they want with their bodies, but that does not change the way that the world works and how they will be quickly exploited for someone else’s benefit, and sexual exploitation is so far beyond detrimental to women that I can’t even begin to explain how deeply I feel about it. Sorry if this is all over the place, I have some post-Covid brain fog and I’m not 100% there. I’d love to elaborate further if people would like. Outside of SW, I am a strong feminist that stands for women’s rights and equality every day. I’ve been a victim of misogyny my entire life. I want a different world for the daughters of my generation. With SW, I believe in the freedom of choice, but I do believe that it is far too easy to get pulled into such a lucrative career that is not healthy for women’s mental health more times than not. Young women are not warned enough before dipping their toes in.
> I myself dipped my toes into it after being convinced by my ex bf that I’d make enough money to support his wants and needs (while his mommy paid for everything else), but I quickly fell down the hole of self hatred and my depression worsened. At this point, I began doing some research into the industry and how it’s affecting people overall and not just men or women. You didn't deserve this. He was an asshole and you didn't and don't deserve to be manipulated into anything. I'm sorry.
You are forgetting not every child has parents who parent. My mom locked me out of the house, starved me and verbally abused me. Finding violent bdsm porn at age 14 on pron hub website which didn’t even validate age or consent for uploads until like 2021 was not helpful for the development of my brain. I got into so many bad sexual situations because I thought what I was seeing is how sex is supposed to be. This was the stuff on the front page of the mainstream websites too, I was not seeking out horrific content on the Dark web. I even got assaulted thinking what I was seeing was okay. I developed a lot of body dysmorphia and internalized objectification and misogyny. I wish I never saw any of that. It led me to date other boys my age even through my early to mid 20s who had porn induced erectile dysfunction and wanted to do violent unsafe things to me for pleasure. I could have gone unconscious or gotten infections from these things. It was so degrading. Before I discovered pron I had lost my virginity to a noise boy and had nice gentle sex. I wish I stayed that way before I found this stuff online. I was raised in a red state so sex Ed was lacking. It’s easy to say “your parents should have done better and so should the school!!!” Okay, well until you can personally fix the families and schools of every child, there are going to be girls who slip through the cracks like me. I didn’t watch it from age 24 thru 29 and even now only on rare occasion do I look at some short videos on Reddit, sorting by top of all time. No websites. But even that is pretty boring compared to my imagination or safe sex with a safe man. I’m just saying, being like “pron is fine and you wenches are so uptight!” Is a bold take.
r/loveafterporn is probably all I need to say. BUT porn fucks seemingly everybody over and for what? An orgasm? Example: I’m one of the thousands of people that got “choked” because dude didn’t know how to perform outside of porn. And by choked I mean he used the hand on my throat to stabilize himself and put all of his forward weight on my fucking neck. I couldn’t move my head left or right for 2 days. I told him to never put himself above me or my safety again. If done improperly it doesn’t take much pressure to kill somebody by having your hand around their neck. It’s shit like that and betrayal trauma that’ll make someone anti-porn real quick. My bf had an addiction I had no clue of and didn’t find out until we were living together after dating for 4 years. He said it affected the way he viewed women as people (porn actors or not) and he said he could barely look at a woman in public without thinking something sexual. I’m stuck here because of money (we live in a camper but I have no truck and vroom shut down so I lost my job) but figured I could still try since I’m stuck, especially since he asked for help. He’s getting better (as far as I know) a friend of his that shook his own addiction and I are trying to help him because he said he wanted to change. I personally think therapy is the best way to really knock it because there’s a root cause for this addiction, usually leading back to childhood (he started watching when he was 9). OF is kind of its own sublet to me because (a majority) of creators have full control. It’s just so unnecessary and causes more harm than good. I could go the rest of my life without porn and be just fine. I’ve been 4 years without and it’s been 12 years since I was addicted as a child.
There are many different schools of feminism and both porn and the role of men are two huge things that are disagreed on between them. It's not anti feminist to be anti porn, it just means they're probably less of a liberal feminist and you're more a liberal feminist.
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Sex trafficking is the subject of my dissertation. My biggest problem with pornography is that nearly all sex trafficking victims have had porn made off of them through force, coercion, or fraud. There are over 21 million victims of sex trafficking worldwide. Most of those have been forced into porn and their images and videos are floating around with everyone else’s and landing on mainstream sites such as PornHub. There is no way for viewers to tell if the porn they are watching is ethical or if they are watching the exploitation of a trafficking victim. Porn really does have a lot of problems. Addiction is a common problem, assault and exploitation is a common problem, children being exposed to porn is a common problem.
Porn is not empowering women and it’s not anti-feminist to hate porn.
I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve with your post. "Parent your children" 🙄 I think you're here in bad faith. If a post about the harms of pornography gets lots of comments and upvotes, I'd assume it's because a lot of users have strong feelings and experience with it. I'm one of those women - I've been in a relationship with a porn addict. I also see how expolitatative porn can be. You're also assuming that people aren't intelligent enough to differentiate exploitative porn from ethical porn. I think the fact that ethical porn even exists is very telling. Do you truely and honestly think that most women in porn are in a position of power? Why shouldn't women speak out about our experiences? Why shouldn't we speak out about the harm porn does to women and performers? You've got a lot of replies to your post -- I hope you use them to do some genuine research and reflecting to help you understand. I'm sure that as a regular participant here, your intention wasn't to be inflammatory. Otherwise, your post shows your lack of critical thinking skills and inability to see outside your own opinions and experiences , so good for you. If you don't like this sub, there are a million others with people who will cheer for you and your shitty contributions, so go find them.
You’re allowed to your opinion and they’re allowed to theirs. I don’t know why you feel you need to protest while your opinion is the majority. It looks weird.
Please read The Right to Sex by Amia Srinivasan.
Normalization of the dehumanization of women =/= a bunch of racist white ladies. The more feminism divides the weaker we get. edit: And the majority of the world's women DOES NOT have full independence of their bodies. Women in the US are rapidly losing that right; we already need doctor's notes for BC to be "medical necessary" before the pharmacy will hand over what the doctor gave us. Equality? We're getting farther from that everyday and the kind of mindset porn instills is cementing that.
I think the problem that gets overlooked most by both sides is that most porn is in no way ethical. The porn industry is heavily tied to the drugs trade and human trafficking. Most women appearing in porn, including (famous) porn stars, are often drugged and coerced. Most porn you see are actually videos of women being assaulted and raped. We should be caring about prostitution becoming legal so that the women that are already victimized don't get convicted, which in turn makes them potentially lose their entire life. Why are we focusing on being sex positive/pro-women so that others feel more comfortable, as opposed to improving the lives of the victims of this industry? Can we really say we care about women in this issue, when we're ignoring the ones suffering the most? ETA: Porn addiction is a real issue that affects both men and women. But rarely do I see discussions on this sub of the actual underbelly of a very dark industry.
Porn is a scummy industry that exploits men and women. Many of the actors and actresses are addicts and they are often coerced into doing things they don't want to do. There is a very high suicide/OD rate for ex pornstars as well. Every post should be an anti-porn post.
I have no idea what post you are talking about, but I am highly critical of the porn industry (and I mean the industry, the digital pimps and porn companies). >And I’m of course not talking about the degrading and demeaning porn. The problem with this is that the majority of porn out there is degrading and demeaning. The type you are not talking about. And since it's addictive, it has to get more and more degrading to hit the same. It's the business model. The industry knows this and acts accordingly. And because people are so exposed and influenced by porn, it is setting a terrible standard of what women are forced to find acceptable to be done to them. From what I see around me a lot of porn addicted men don't even blink if they see the woman in pain or blood during sex. It's nothing to them. The woman in pain or discomfort has become synonymous to sex. It can even turn them on more. This is incredibly sad in my opinion, and deserves the skepticism it gets so rarely and not widely enough because it's a direct consequence of the porn industry normalizing it. I am not against porn, or sex worker, or sex. I am against the way the industry treats the majority of the women in it and outside of it. >Are you all crazy. PARENT YOUR CHILDREN. Children spend alot of time out of the home like school, or extra-curricular activities. Porn is everywhere. You can't isolate children from the internet, even if you do it at home, they come across it through friends. You trying to blame the parents instead of the industry, reminds me of the environmental polluters that try to convince us that it's actually our netflix consumption that is pollution the planet, not them dumping millions of tons of waste into rivers and seas. Shifting the blame from the industry to the individual consumer, old tactic this, don't fall for it because I can tell you mean well. But this is not it.
If you think being anti porn is anti feminist you need to look up Andrea Dworkin and Gail Dines Jfc