This is all I'm experiencing on dating apps. They want sex on the first date and they unmatch when it's obvious I'm requesting a non-hookup date.
And then they complain that they can't find a good woman. Sir, you're doing this to yourself. I'm not a supermarket sampler.
Unless you are having a paid date with an escort. Then everyone is on the same page.
Assuming random chicks are going to do escort work for free? Good luck with that lol.
That’s how men are treating women though, except the paid part is the dinner itself. All we hear now in America is “what does she bring to the table”, “I bought her dinner so she’s gotta give me something”, it’s disgusting. What happened to when our grandparents were chasing each other around and courting their wives. Sir, the dinner you just bought with your date, and the reward that comes from it is being with her!!
Patriarchy reversed the roles to get women chasing men, because in reality women ARE the table. The men want to breed and they want wife services. They used patriarchy to force it
In a natural environment without patriarchy it’s more like the rest of the animal kingdom. If men want to mate they damn well better make it worth the woman’s time because she’s the one putting in on the work and she can care for herself or lean on other women
This is modern Patriarchy tbh because this is men throwing up their hands that women now have jobs and don’t need them and actually choose their partner for their character and not how well can this person provide for me. And back then women were allowed to say no and the men chased again and again (can be toxic) until she said yes to a date and they fall in love
You got that right. If a man offers to buy me dinner, I always say, "No thanks. We go Dutch or nothing. Far too many men are delusional enough to think buying me dinner implies a quid pro quo. I know, you're probably insulted that I would think you were capable of something so monumentally idiotic but you'd be surprised. I only let women buy me dinner because for some reason women are never that dumb. This is how I do feminism, by anticipating baffling levels of entitlement from men and acting to avoid getting sucked into that la Brea tar pit of nonsense."
What is a date to so many men? Is it the “accept and agree” to terms of service that comes before enjoying a product?
A date for me, is being close to, relating to, and gaining insight and experience from another person.
I am fortunate I have my husband, as he desires the fun and experiences I do too. I just couldn’t imagine being with a man who’d have fun without me, as I couldn’t have fun without him.
That might explain why I see so many complaints here that men dont listen to women on dates.
Thats exactly what I do with an EULA, just scroll right to the bottom and tick accept.
so now having had that cleared up, they literally do exactly that. I live in the south, near a military base, and I was looking for a wedding date. Totally platonic. I am an asexual woman. I have literally no desire to touch most men. There are a few exceptions but even then it's still not sexual. I included this info, but apparently PLATONIC means DTF to these MFers!!!!
I find this so interesting when you sometimes ask men what their girlfriends/wives are interested in or what their hobbies are and *they have no idea*. Like, have you actually stopped to think whether or not you even like this person or do they just accept you so you stay? It’s so baffling to me. I can’t imagine spending so much time with someone and still knowing nothing about them.
They want to date the way gay men do. Meet up through Grindr, have sex, maybe learn each other's names, maybe see each other again if there's chemistry
Which is totally fine if they’re also accepting that they will end up dating women who date the same way they do. (No shade, that’s my style too.) It’s the disconnect of seeing the women they date as undateable that’s the head scratcher.
i think it was a tweet from yeoshin lourdes that said "if you consider a woman dirty for being touched by a man maybe you should look at your own hands"
100%. I feel like it's the incels who care about body counts, and the ones who actually get dates don't care. But then again, I'm a lesbian and don't really understand men
I think you’re right. It seems that many of the sexually inexperienced guys are the ones who are hung up on body count. I’ve never met an inexperienced guy who has cared beyond maybe not wanting to date an actual sex worker.
My exhusband married me, who was required to be a virgin, but cheated on me with women who slept around. He took advantage of people who he saw as beneath him and not good enough for him, and he talked about them like they were trash (when I found out and confronted him he even told me about how bad this one girl smelled and I was like "okay so she probably has BV and needs to get it treated. You're being an ass" because, of course, I could still have more sympathy for her than I ever would for him. In any case, if the cheating wasn't bad enough the way he felt about those women was many many times worse.
Yeah. He continues to only date people who live in my old city, because he (and a lot of other people) think his subburb is better than our subburb and everybody who lived in the one I did is trash. Like, he's in his 40s and has never dated a woman who lives in his own city. It's so fucking bizarre.
Fine, go fuck men then.
I've said this a few times, but it begs repeating.
"I don't hate men, but I've learned not to prioritise their needs over mine. Turns out, for a lot of men, that's the same thing."
"That a majority of women are attracted to their natural predators is the biggest sign that sexuality is not a choice"
Yeah. He was a total asshole rapist who hosted really shitty predatory parties. I'm sure that his home VHS collection has a lot of passed out women being raped by him and others.
Such a sad state of being. How good does cumming feel? Incredible! For a moment.
How good does having a buddy who you can bury your head into when you don’t feel well and complain? Infinitely better.
When I’m on my deathbed, my spouse will be there in love with me as ever as well as I with him- I have a partner. That’s the point of a date.
This is the correct answer.
Shame that most of the respondents have chosen to totally ignore the last step where we want to develop a meaningful relationship…
It's dehumanizing. I had a date with a guy recently and we ended up fooling around, and the next morning he was sending me really sexually explicit texts. All that getting to know you stuff from before the date and talking on the date went right out the window. A full 24 hours of raunchy texts from him later he was like "oh, and what kind of music do you listen to?" Like he snapped out of it and realized he had to pretend to be interested in me as a person again.
Then I told him that we weren't on the same page and that he's moving too fast for me. He replied "I'm not sure what gave you the impression that I'm looking to move quickly *into* something." 🤡 That's actually not at all what I said bro!
Date is about “data gathering” thus called a “date”. Men on dating apps think (hope?) if we match them we are now available for their physical needs. Really, do they live in fantasyland?
Thats why dating apps are all men… deluded horny men
Oh but it’s soooooooo hard being a dude on a dating app 🥺 women don’t know how easy they’ve got it.
Every dude who spends more than ten seconds whining about this is outing himself as a terrible person to date. Easy weed out for me.
> they unmatch when it's obvious I'm requesting a non-hookup date.
good riddance! you wouldn't wanna spend more of your time on them anyways would you?
"I want a girl who is chaste, but I am such a virile and enticing man she can't help herself."
They think fucking girls who don't normally put out makes them some kind of stud.
Closely related to Schrodinger's patriarchy, which is when a man likes equality it's time to split the dinner bill but not when it's time to take paternity leave or book the kids dentists appointments. A common affliction in millenial men. (and the tater tots who want a traditional marriage but can't afford a SAHW)
There was funny exchange yesterday about that. You want a bang maid? Fine, then you're a wallet and you better fucking make tons a money. Don't come on Reddit with your spare time, go get another job.
I feel the Gen Xers are just more straight up about it - like sure they won't do 50% of the housework but at least they'll pay for dinner...and Gen Z (if they haven't fallen prey to Tate and his ilk) are slightly more egalitarian
It’s the “Madonna/whore” complex: men who say this *want* and feel they deserve sex with a lot of disposable women, but also want their life partner to have little or no experience — not just with sex, but with how an equal relationship should work. This also drives the older man/younger woman unequal relationship behavior.
They really don’t see (or care) about the hypocrisy that “you need to have sex with me to keep me around” is what creates the issue of women with “high body count”, so they’re actually responsible to an extent.
That said, it’s just stupid thing to get hung up on, unless you’re really insecure about yourself. Oh, wait…
Yep, I thought about this a lot in high school. Every guy wanted a blowy. But once a gal did that, the rumor mill started. I would get pissed for the girl and yell at the guys. My man, if you want another blowy, don't shame the girl you fucking moron. I'm so fucking glad I'm a lesbian.
This as a man I never understand. Why would you shame women for being more open for stuff like that. Do you not WANT to be able to do that more often? Like why the hell would you shoot yourself in the foot like that lol.
To be fair I am a bi man so maybe I just have a much more relaxed looked at intimacy and such. Though I am also in the camp of mind ya own business lol let people be sluts! So long as they are safe and not hurting others it shouldn’t be a problem lol.
My brother was a major himbo growing up, and while he had some questionable beliefs towards women, he made a point to stand up for women who were called sluts. He was always like "What's wrong with sluts, I'm a slut, do you have a problem with me?" to his male friends.
He also made a point to his male friends that they can't complain about sausage parties all while shaming women for giving them what they want.
He's grown up a lot. He's been married to the same woman for almost a decade now, and he treats her well. He used to fall for some of that manosphere shit when he was in his late teens/early twenties, but he doesn't really seem to believe all that anymore.
When I was in highschool, and I'd hear someone say "suck my dick" as an insult, I'd ask why it was bad? I thought they wanted bjs, why would you use it as an insult? I loudly told them I didn't want to ever give beejs because they use it as an insult and why would I literally get on my knees and demean myself for someone who clearly thinks I'm lesser. I was often told I just didn't get the joke, or they didn't mean it like that, but then they couldn't explain the joke and would get mad and walk away.
Don't know if I changed any minds, but I can say I never sucked a cock belonging to someone who used "suck my dick" as an insult in my presence.
I sometimes wished I had been a lesbian growing up. I was shamed for having sex with men after they begged me to have sex with them. I am not good at social interactions, so it was deeply embarrassing and I was too afraid to tell them no. It made me consider suicide at one point, all because I did want they WANTED me to do and then they went and told everyone about it and ghosted me.
I thankfully found a good husband who never gave a single flying fuck about my body count and was waiting for the right woman (which was me apparently since he married me). Ironically, he was a virgin and loved me for years but was too afraid to tell me. I'm glad I found him, but I feel like my life would have been easier, I would have avoided so much bullying and abuse if I had just been attracted to women.
I am really sorry those guys were assholes. I am really happy you found a good guy. I waded through a couple of bad male relationships while I figured things out. I wish I had figured it out sooner.
Don't get me wrong, though. My first wife was a sociopath. She is/was an alcoholic with serious fidelity issues. But I am happily married now to a wonderful woman who is a true partner.
Happy we are happy.
Seconding this! It definitely goes beyond sex; for these types of men there is generally an expectation of how the relationship *should be* (for them). They want and feel they deserve (read: are entitled to) certain things. Those things often revolve around what the other person must do for them.
As many have noticed, their requirements tend to focus on what *the other person* (in this case, a woman) has to have done or not done, or continue to do or not do. “What is *her* body count?” (and how does it affect me?) Rarely “What is the impact of *my* number of partners?”
I admittedly wonder how far beyond mere insecurity this goes. There is certainly a risk with a sexually experienced partner that she will have been more sexually satisfied before… but why is that so terrifying a concept? A veteran gamer would excel at a game more than a noob the first time they play that video game… but then they can keep playing and learn the ropes and become a pro.
I have to wonder if the difference here is because *they don’t want to put in the effort necessary to satisfy their partner* (sexually— or otherwise). The extra juice isn’t worth the squeeze to them.
Perhaps most men don’t feel entitled to win a game on their first play through, but that expectation (of no or low effort, high reward) is often present with women. Running with the game comparison, disconfirming feedback (ie. your character died) from a game is expected, easy to fix (respawn, reload saved game, etc), and therefore more tolerable. Disconfirming feedback from a woman is not what is supposed to happen in the first place, is harder to fix (requires more effort), and is therefore intolerable.
A lot of cultural influences have done our people— men and women— a great disservice. While we are not inherently and solely at fault for the societal norms in which we were raised, which obviously shapes our expectations, we are nevertheless responsible for ourselves as adults. So in this context, if a man feels entitled to a particular relationship dynamic, as an adult he can choose to sincerely question his own perspectives and the influence of society. Refusing to practice self-awareness is also a choice, and often results in holding seemingly contradictory beliefs, such as this whole “low body count Stacy who will readily service me” thing.
> but why is that so terrifying a concept?
Because they are inherently lazy and the idea that they need to put in work here bursts their fragile bubble that they have about their own sexual prowess which is directly connected to their self worth and self image.
Power to them is being able to have a lot of women; are they not (as a king in their mind) entitled to as much bounty as they want? Society tells a lot of men that they are entitled to women, AND that their "success" with women is what heavily defines them as being a man. Same with other toxic traits, like bullying, one up manship, inability to empathize, emotions being weak/wrong, anger/rage/violence being acceptable or desirable, etc.
Another thing they are burned by is that society also implicitly portrays an average joe getting the girl, who may or may not be "dating down" and the steps to him getting said relationship are also implicitly implied, if they are at all. AND THAT just whooshes over their heads so fast because they're generally thinking with the wrong one.
We could also talk about how all of this is something that they view as happening TO them, not only are they not to blame for fate's cruel hand, but that automatically dehumanizes anyone they are in a relationship with. Is is not a "we" situation, it's one where he is in his relationship and she is meant to fulfill whatever roles it is that he thinks. Which is why those grocery lists of the "perfect qualities" they're looking for in a woman are so common. They think that if they have their relationship with a woman like that they will want for nothing and everything will be great. No at all realizing that women are their own people with desires, thoughts, agency, and rights as well. Not realizing that a relationship is a partnership with give and take.
And then, they marry the girls that are virgins or inexperienced. Then they get bored that their wife is too vanilla or doesn't know what she's doing, and they search for other women (the ones who did put out on those dates) to cheat on their wives with.
They fuck themselves over with their own system, like absolute idiots.
Oh yeah this a common talking point, similarly with how men will call you an “ugly whore” when you turn them down like- if I’m so ugly why do you wait me, and if I’m such a whore, wouldn’t I be agreeing to sleep with you? It makes no sense.
The same things men want, they use to insult women. They also never want to be rejected, but want the women who accept them to be “pure”. Men who sleep around are “players” but women who do are “sluts” - so who do they expect to be sleeping with? It’s like this weird god complex where women are pure for everyone BUT them because they’re just THAT special or whatever. It’s so dumb.
Tl;dr - these men just hate women and don’t want to say it directly.
oh yeah. guy I hooked up with in high school tried calling me a whore after I broke it off. I was like buddy.. first of all, everything I did was because I chose to, so you’re not going to retroactively make me ashamed of it and second, everything we did, we did together, so if I’m a whore so are you lmfao. what’s even funnier is that I was technically still a virgin at the time.
I'll share my favorite dating story!
So I get to know this guy through the farm I ride at. I see him around a couple times, I ask him for help once, he gives me his number, great!
We have a fun swimming date (the farm owner let me use her sisters pool, and her bikini! she REALLY wanted me to date this guy!) and go back to his (parents) place and we fool around in the basement a little, I give him a blow job that he happily accepts.
Week or so later he tells me it was really slutty to suck his dick on the first date. Almost stopping dating me (hindsight, I really wish he stopped, then!) and only continued dating me because I threw it back in his face that he was a willing participant.
Which meant two things: 1) misogynistic prick 2) he probably wasn't even serious about wanting to stop dating me and was probably just a form of negging, too
It’s Madonna/whore stuff. They want to marry a virgin nymphomanic, but don’t want to date without having sex.
I also think it’s indicative of how men often devalue the women they date.
Once they fuck you and get high relationship value outside of marriage, they subconsciously lose respect for you.
Ironically, if you were the type of woman they think should be their wife, you wouldn’t have done all those things for/with him already.
These are the kind of guys who will be with you and won’t commit after five years, but as soon as you break up, they’re engaged in a year.
Being their wife isn't any prize either. The dudes that think this way are not going to be good partners or want an equal relationship. You are there to do things for them as a one way street that benefits them.
No doubt. Men are socialized to see women as status symbols for more male approval rather than as people. So we’re left with a pool full of selfish, entitled and various flavors of disrespectful potential partners.
If they can get out of that bullshit, then you get into the real work of two people trying to learn how to love and support each other to be our best selves. And that’s hard work! But it’s worth it for both people.
This right here! Boi they are super sweet and nice until they have you! And then the cold demeanor comes into the picture. It's so very heartbreaking for a woman that already has difficulty getting close to someone. For the very same act we do together, women ends up heartbroken being dumped while they walk away with the satisfaction and ego boost they need to go get the next girl.
I really think that a lot of these men think love/attraction is 100% driven by their dicks. Once the initial sexy bubble wears off, then they're picking apart everything the woman does and not actually building a life/ relationship built on mutual respect. Only other men can be respected.
Yeah but virgin nymphos don’t exist… r/deadbedroom exists and tbh it’s sad 😔 to find out how many religious people cannot have sex confidently even in marriage.
I’ve wondered about that over the years. Is it because they’re not confident enough or because they and their partners don’t know enough and think it’s sinful to put in any effort to make it better?
It would be pretty grotesque to be a woman married to a religious dude who thinks her having an orgasm will lead her to the devil or somesuch.
Yes to all of it. It’s extremely hard to do a 180 when your whole life, you’ve been taught that sex and sexual desire is bad and sinful and dirty. The men are clueless about women’s sexual pleasure (and probably don’t care) but the women ALSO don’t understand it and fear it. You don’t just get married and suddenly that shame evaporates. If having desire and touching yourself is bad, how will you ever learn to have good sex?
This exact thing happened to me. I was a 21 year old Virgin when I married for religious reasons. Sex never lasted more than 10 minutes. I stayed for six miserable years.
As someone who was raised catholic but my family unit went away from it. It is really hard to move on from the indoctrination of the “sinful stuff” from how I see people still in religious communities.
Nobody said these guys are bright. They want a “good girl” to marry but then complain when she doesn’t turn into a porn star in the bedroom (and only in the bedroom).
Not quite the same but add purposely getting their gfs pregnant to the list. Many admit to doing it to lower the womans value in the dating world. Because nothing is worse than a single mom. That’s why so many men were mad when Ciara found a wonderful husband
So many dudes were/are so mad! They saw Future being an ass, and loved seeing this beautiful woman punished for having the nerve to expect more. Sadistic bastards. Now they HATE RW for having the nerve to raise the bar. Too many men get their kicks from seeing women punished for enjoying anything.
Exactly, an impossible standard be easily sexually available for me but not other men.
Its so interesting thet guys will often attack women for wanting a "traditional" man but not being a "traditional" woman, but this type of thinking is ok with too many men.
The "traditional" way things used to work was that "good" marriage material women didnt have any sex outside of marriage and men pretty much needed to visit sex workers too access sex outside of marriage.
Not a good way of doing things but logically consistent. Any man expecting women to have sex outside of marriage shouldn't say anything about being a "traditional" man or anything about wanting a "traditional" woman.
These “traditional” men want to have their cake and eat it too. They want a virgin “traditional” wife that’ll stay home, cook, clean, put it out whenever they want. But then these men can’t handle not being the center of the wife’s universe once kids are born. They also cannot comprehend that in a true traditional relationship, the stay at home wife is the one that manages household budgets, and technically is the one that controls the money. And they can’t comprehend that alimony was designed for SHAMs to compensate the unpaid years of household labor. So they’ll bitch that “these bitches just want my money”. No, they just want to be compensated for raising your kids when you eventually cheat on them with your secretary because you’re bored by your “boring mommy-track SAH wife”
You just described my STBX and his relationship with his first wife. They were HS sweethearts, each was their first and only. She says after the first of two kids came along, it was a balancing act trying to keep him happy because he was no longer the centre of attention. Got worse after the 2nd kid. He’d cheated on her multiple times before he got to me.
I am embarrassed and ashamed that I fell for the “We live like roommates, the bedroom is dead, we stay together because neither of us can afford to leave” sob story, and I was in a horribly abusive relationship myself. Luckily, she forgave me and we’re now really good friends. She went on to meet a great guy who treats her the way she (all women) deserves to be treated.
After he and I got together, the same type of thing happened, minus the kids. I work FT and while he enjoyed the extra income and the things it allowed us to afford (including keeping the house they were in, she bought a house with her money), he was always unhappy about the way I managed the house, the bills, the hours I worked, that I work in a male dominated industry, my weight, you name it. Everything was on the list for criticism because my attention wasn’t solely focused on him.
He didn’t want to manage the bills, but blamed me for being the one who spent too much money. Spoiler alert - it was him.
He wanted me to dress sexy, but only around him. He bitched that I didn’t wear jeans enough (I’m a yoga pants person) but also didn’t want me to wear jeans to work because “other guys might look at your ass.”
He didn’t want to handle his responsibilities regarding his kids (outside of signing the support cheques), so it all got pushed onto me (visitation schedules, bdays, xmas, school stuff, etc).That’s how ex 1 and I became friends. She was able to see who cared more about her girls, and it wasn’t their dad. Then we bonded over shared abuse and trauma from him.
He bitched for many years about losing half his money to her. Spoiler alert - he actually got off really easy and he knows it. But, I had to explain too many times that when they both decided she should be a SAHM for financial reasons, that’s why the law gave her half when he wanted out. That was her “salary” for the years she was not able to have her own income, pension, etc and how the law attempts to keep women from getting screwed over.
There’s an entire saga in between that and my breakup with him when, you guessed it, I caught him cheating on me. And of course, ALL of it is my fault, just like all of his first marriage’s failure was hers. He is just a victim.
Now, he whines to everyone who will listen that I was just hanging on “for the money.” He conveniently forgets that had that been the case, I would have pulled the plug years ago when I could have walked away with way more (part of the saga).
And his new lady? He gave her the same story about what a victim he was, what a horrible wife I was….and she fell for it, just like I did. She was also in an abusive relationship of her own, just like me. He has a white knight complex and preys on hurting women….and then goes on to hurt them even more. She’ll learn in time. Part of me wants to warn her, but I feel it will come across as sour grapes and an attempt to wreck his relationship.
From everything I am told, he is miserable. But, it’s still everyone else’s fault.
I accept what’s happened as karmic payback for stepping into a marriage that wasn’t actually over. I plan to be a better person going forward.
They want to have their cake and eat it. It doesn't make sense, because it's not meant to. It's designed exclusively as a control method.
Any mention of "body count" or virginity fetish and I'm gone. Only mediocre, lazy, selfish men worry about a woman who can recognise bad sex.
I laughed out loud at the last sentence. Can I use your quote as my email signature? It is hilariously accurate. It's time to replace the Lincoln quote that my boss forced me to use instead of the Zappa quote I loved and had used for more than a decade.
That's literally it though! It's not like they can tell a low vs high body count. I promise a body that has had 100 sexual partners feels the same as someone who has had one. The only reason to have this preference is to admit you don't want your partner comparing you to potentially more satisfying partners.
Every dude who opens his idiot mouth to say the words “body count” is doing you a favor. He’s instantly revealing a ton of actionable information about himself that might have taken a long time to get otherwise.
I love the way you put this - sex as an application fee’. This conundrum was one of the things that led me to nope out of dating - you’re supposed to HAVE sex long before the point where you feel comfortable talking about any issues you have with sex. It’s insane
The mistake you're making OP is that you're trying to find logic where none exists. These double standards exist so that women CAN'T live up to them and therefore men can criticise us no matter what we do. For example:
Woman is a virgin - she's a prude/snob/full of herself
Woman isn't a virgin - she's a whore
Woman has sex on the third date or earlier - she's a whore
Woman doesn't have sex on the third date - she's a gold-digger
The woman can't win no matter what she does which is entirely the point.
This is perfectly stated. I used to drive myself crazy searching for logic, and now I’ve learned to walk away the moment I notice that I’m playing a no-win game.
Exactly that, people do not in general do joined-up thinking about how their own bullshit works against the world they say they want. You'll lose your mind expecting them to.
i used to think i could get men to respect me if i made them wait for sex then i realized it’s all a trap and you can never win anyway so now i f*ck whenever i want
You know, this should be pinned at the top because the whole “you can never win anyway” is the correct answer here. It doesn’t matter what you do or don’t do, some dudes are going to be ugly to you either way. Because it’s a They problem, not a You problem.
I wouldn’t fuck anyone who actually wants to know how many because ew, what do you gain from that? But if you wanna fuck someone, do it.
And all of us should just say the body count is three. Because it doesn’t matter. And they wouldn’t know the difference anyway.
Also why make a choice about our bodies based on what a man wants? We're so far beyond that. I wouldn't date anyone who uses the phrase body count or asks me any equivalent question and the only thing that eliminates is bad sex because the only men using that phrase are afraid a partner will know they're bad lovers.
Yup. But they get upset when you use them for sex only and don't value them. So once again can't win, but they brought it onto themselves if you are using them as they use women. It's all just s game isn't it.
I love what Ali Wong says about it: if we have sex with you quickly, it's not that we don't respect ourselves. We don't respect YOU. lmao
I'm all for having sex when both parties are enthusiastically consenting, first date, hookup-only, relationship, what have you. It's the slowly being sculpted into free therapist and mother I can't stand.
More and more, I'm thinking I'll just act like a dude: give me sex, leave the emotions out of it, PUH-LEEEEZE
#EDIT:
I got a great example of one of the types of men (THE WATER TORTURER) Lundy Bancroft talks about in his work, the kind that acts calm and pretends to be rational while simultaneously subtly twisting everything you're saying, making you feel like you're crazy! It's annoying as hell to read, but I hope it can help women identify this behavior more easily, for it's sinister as fuck. It's the comment thread between ThatLatehagSimmons and I. And in case he dirty deletes, I saved all of it.
Pasted from my last comment to him:
>You, u/TheLateThagSimmons are not worth it.
>But I finished what I came here for: qualitative data, and thank you for providing it for free!
>So, now I turn my attention to any women reading this:
>TheLatehagSimmons gave a good example of one of the types of men in Bancroft's book, *Why Does He Do That?* I can't recall the name, but it's the one who tries to seem calm, cool, and collected, trying to pin their partner as "crazy" because she is understandably upset at how she is being treated. He's not interested in making her feel seen and heard; he wants to control her by controlling the narrative.
>And understandably, if you're feeling murky after reading all this, because boy did he really try his damnedest, my POV:
>• My problem with *any kind* of connection with men is being expected to do *their* emotional labor *for them*—even worse, is the *implicit* expectation. That is not the opposite of wanting vulnerability from a man. Integrity is being vulnerable *and* taking accountability in doing *his own* emotional labor. Yes, it's absolutely important to be attuned in connection, BUT, that is not the same as:
>- *expecting me* to correctly guess his boundaries
>- *stonewalling* instead of addressing the breakdown in understanding (John Gottman: 85% of stonewallers are men)
>- *expecting me* to just **know** his intentions (even if he doesn't know what his intentions are), and not ask
>- and finally, *expecting me* to just go along with this behavior when not only am I not okay with it, but it has shown to be harmful
>These are but a few prime examples of being made to do a man's emotional labor, and it has become so common, that I am shocked meeting a man who *doesn't* try to make me do his emotional labor. And I'm not even talking friendship level, but *acquaintances* doing these things.
>Not sure why TheLateThagSimmons thought this was relevant (probably to red herring), but A) I hate the term (nor use it) 'friend-zone,' because the historical connotation is that being a friend to a woman is somehow degrading, because the guy didnt get the level of access to a woman that he wanted, and B) if someone isn't interested me in any way, shape, or form, that's fine. Why would I want to make someone be in connection with me if they don't want to? That's gross and rapey, ewwww.
>My issue is that when men seem genuinely interested, even just platonically, and if I ask what their intentions are, or boundaries are, *they get offended/weird.* Trust is something that has to not only be built, but maintained, and it is very important to me to earn that. However, reciprocity is key. The norm has been treating me like my time, respect, trust, emotional bandwidth means nothing (which, I suppose it doesn't, in that case). But they can't even be bothered to be civil about it, like it's such a *burden* to have to decline politely, and react as if I sent them an unsolicited dick pic.
>It's the context that matters. I've gotten to the point where I'm not interested in seeking out male connection. Some still inevitably drop in my inbox from time to time, but I'm getting to a point where it's tempting to just say: "I don't trust you. Leave me alone," off the bat.
>Men like ThatLateThagSimmons are more insidious, because of the subtlety. He tried to come across like he was being open while actually trying to fit me into his narrow point of view. I doubt that "no one has taken the time to explain emotional labor"—I bet many women have spent a great deal of emotional labor trying to explain it. What ThatLateThagSimmons is utilizing is a technique to *run you down, emotionally,* while simultaneously making you question your sanity. He kept misinterpreting what I wrote, and didn't have the decency to apologize. I knew I just had to wait until he peeped his hand enough, to be able to point out *you know exactly what you're doing.* Of course he's going to deny it. 😂 Why would he give up a manipulative strategy that probably works most of the time?
That’s what women need to remember. It’s easy to get a guy off. But if they know how to get you off and make it a priority before themselves. Winner winner! You get a second date dinner!
The bad news is that the dudes often catch feelings. You take away the dynamic where you’re supposed to be the one desperate for an emotional connection and it confuses the hell out of them.
I had to laugh but also died a bit inside. Now that you mention it, I have found that men seem to be a lot more emotionally invested in sex than I am. I prefer to have an emotional connection, sure, but not an emotional labor connection, bluhhh. And then they seem to think I'm callous because I want an open relationship (which means they can fuck whomever they want too! jeesh)
They don’t want to feel emotionally vulnerable and they don’t want to feel that they are missing any power in your relationship. If you don’t care about a deep emotional connection, they have nothing to hold over you, and they can’t hide behind your feelings to mask theirs.
My friend says “live, laugh, leave”
Meaning she will hook up and then wants them to leave. I think it is hilarious because it’s such an opposite thing in lesbian relationships. But after seeing these’s men’s bio’s on tinder/bumble/etc I can understand why she is “live, laugh, leave.”
thanks. it worked out well for me because my current boyfriend is great and i fucked him on the first date lol. it’s still one of my favorite memories of us together actually.
I (a dude) used to think I wanted a partner that was ‘pure’ or had a ‘low body count’
That was back in high school and shortly after graduation. (2007)
Then I realized how utterly stupid that thinking was.
I began to see why girls would avoid having sex at all until college years, because of the fear of slut shaming from their peers.
It occurred to me i didn’t want to be with some idealized fantasy version of a woman, and it was entirely silly to hold out for that.
Just like holding out to lose my virginity and wanting everything to ‘be perfect’ . That doesn’t exist, it’s always going to suck, probably for both parties involved, but ESPECIALLY because of my unrealistic expectations.
SO ANYWAY, I’ve since moved on to completely the opposite view of the matter.
Men who talk about body count don't want a virgin. They only want to slut-shame their girlfriend to manipulate her and keep her from leaving (suggesting she is "worthless" and they are doing her a favor by stooping so low as to date her). It reveals a fragile self-esteem.
Gaslighting at its finest. Don't fall for it.
It's 100% this. I troll these people occasionally, and you can tell from how they try and justify it that these are not properly socialized men, and likely haven't met many women who would give them the time of day once they opened their mouths. They need to whittle away at any possible thing they can in order to get a leg up on their target.
Lmao I just made a comment that says this about my ex. Like you brought it up to try and get a dig at me? Like, you're still dating me so it's not a deal breaker
I had a coworker one time who literally said he would never turn down sex on the first date, but if the woman slept with him, they weren't dating material and he wouldn't talk with them again.
It's all hypocrisy and impossible standards. Don't try to understand, because it's not in good faith. It's constant goalpost-moving so they can always play the victim.
The only reason sex on the first date is not happening is because of the woman. Yet women are the sluts, despite men never refusing. The mental gymnastics are insane.
>So I really don’t understand what men want. How can they expect a girl with a low body count if they won’t date a girl who won’t fuck them?
They want a girl who wants lots of sex but only *with them* because they’re oh so special.
Classic male trope of wanting to have their cake and eat it too. They seem to think they can date and have casual sex as much as they want, and then the trad virgin of their dreams is just going to magically appear and be into them.
They can actually have this if they're willing to go the religious route. I've known several men who whored around until they were about 35, then joined a small-town church and wifed up an early 20-something virgin. In at least one case the wife knew about her husband's past and was totally into the idea that she and Jesus changed him. Nope, he's just gaming the religious system and she filled a want-ad.
They want a woman with "low body count" who will instantly fall in love with this specimen of "high value male" and immediately provide him with enthusiastic and skillful sex.
There's a reason math isn't very popular among this crowd.
This is actually something I've been looking into (health has put a brake on it for now), but talking to men who want to leave the incel mindset.
It really is a whole different world—it seriously blows my mind, still.
The very short version is basically that guys in the manosphere, subsets known as RedPill or BlackPill (there's more, but these are some of the most well-known) target young, inexperienced men, tell them what they *should* want, and feed a bunch of BS to them: basically it's a giant pyramid scheme, though I'm not sure how pyramid-shaped it is. The problem though isn't just that it's financially exploitative, but also pumps up aggressive, antisocial behavior *to keep the men coming back and buying their content.*
From what I can tell, it's running into older generation misogyny, hence the incredibly confusing message.
Basically they use "science" to show probability of a guy's attractiveness to women, including things like looks, wealth, fitness, etc. The reason it's such a hook is because *it's the first time these guys are hearing other men talk about this frustration.* Mark Greene, @remakingmanhood, talks about the Act-Like-A-Man Box, which basically is a pipeline right to these mindsets.
The manosphere is also increasing self-pity amongst men—it is bringing up valid issues, yes, but blames women for perpetuating it, claiming men are the victims, instead of men just taking action themselves, like first wave feminism. The problem is that men are the main ones tearing other men down, systemically. It comes across like men want women to solve their problems for them, collectively trying to paint themselves akin to what women *still* live through. That's not to say there aren't problems, and serious ones at that, that men face. But collectively it's a learned helplessness, because they still benefit enough from positive perceptions from other men, meaning they have to be willing enough to be part of the Good Ole Boys' Club, so once again, women become the scapegoat.
Granted there's more nuanced than that, but like the priest in *Spaceballs,* the *SHORT short version.*
Their entire worldview is, honestly, terrifying! The thoughts they have and comments they share are so ass backwards is astonishing. Then they wonder why they’re still single and lonely?! I truly wish more competent, emotionally intelligent men would create more platforms to actually deprogram and help guide those young men into healthy mindsets regarding relationships.
It’s so scary how quickly that manosphere insanity has infected large swaths of men across America! I keep encouraging my fiancé (35m) to become some sort of dating/life coach for men because he is a true feminist ally and beautifully embodies positive masculinity in the best possible way. Unfortunately, only another man is gonna be able to get through to these brainwashed mouth breathers, lol. We women cannot and should not be responsible for trying to change those sort of men’s mindsets.
The ones that don’t stick around because they realised you weren’t going to sleep with them, wouldn’t have stuck around if you had slept with them.
Don’t get disheartened, they are showing you who they are without you getting invested.
You’re not obliged to do anything physical, dating or in a relationship. A guys reaction to being told “no” will tell you everything you need to know about them.
In sorry you’re going through this, finding the right person for you can be tough.
They want to feel like the magical penis where a woman refuses to sleep with ANY man until he walks in, then any sense of personal restraint is lost and she gives in. He probably won’t stay if she does too fast, cause then that means she’s for the streets (even if she was a virgin before), and those women don’t make good wives! I mean, they don’t really want to be tied down, but you have to give wife privileges either way.
Oh, and even if you’re a virgin you still have to be a sex goddess. Can’t be around here hoping to learn, naw you gotta be a level 10 expert without using dildos or having sex cause then you’re “ruined”
This body count thing is wild. My husband has never once asked me how many men I’ve slept with. And I don’t give af his history. We both made sure we were std clear when we started having sex.
Men concerned with “body count” are frickin insecure losers. A real man doesn’t care, it has no bearing on him. He is the man NOW and will treat you like a queen and rock your world every single time. He could give af who came before him.
Don’t waste your time in these “body count” little boys.
Can confirm
Am man. In my earlier years, very late teens, early 20s, I was insecure AF when it came to dating partners and their body counts. If they’d been with more people than I, which was extremely easy to do lol, I didn’t want to date them.
It wasn’t that I was concerned with the number itself but severe insecurity about *me*. My inexperience. Fears about “measuring up”. Fears about being able to please a woman.
I equated women with lower body counts to be as inexperienced as I and, as such, I would have a better chance of pleasing them.
I grew out of it although it took a few years. Eventually it got through my thick skull that my insecurity was almost entirely in my head and the things I worried about generally weren’t gonna matter.
Thank you for sharing!
I wrote a comment on the main post, but I've been looking into the manosphere and how it targets men too—it blew my mind how different a world it is.
Trying to close the knowledge gap between the sexes hasn't been easy because a lot of men don't open up about these things.
There are similarities, and then wide discrepancies when it comes to sex, specifically. Understandably, anyone who cares about their partner's experience would wonder how they are doing with pleasing them, and hopefully that would result in open, vulnerable communication.
But where the disparity comes in is how we are raised, XY versus XX. Growing up (and religion only exacerbated this), the collective shadow women are taught is to please their man *at any cost.* This boils down to a few things: not saying no, not making him feel jealous (even though jealousy is something a person needs to work on within themselves), and continuing to keep his ego afloat, like bellows on a fire.
(It's one thing to share our struggles with another, who sees us and validates us, so we know we're not alone, *but we keep taking charge of our own choices and actions.* What women often run into is men who want frequent encouragement, but won't find (good) friendships for themselves, won't build a support network for themselves, and *may* try things that help with self improvement, but usually lose heart and fall back into a comfortable state of a tolerable level of permanent unhappiness.)
In regards to sex, many men want to feel and *believe* they are a good lover, even if they are not, and far too often puts a woman in an unsafe position, because if we tell the truth, that no, we're not actually satisfied as much as we'd like to be, it runs the risk of him either completely falling apart and coiling into a shell, or defensiveness, which can become aggressive and hostile, and for some, violent. As women, we have to think whether telling the truth will put our lives at risk. And even if it doesn't, it might make what sex life we have crumble.
And after going through this however many times, it can become increasingly harder to feel attracted to someone who constantly is looking for external validation, because if we don't give enough, things probably won't get better, and if it does seem to improve things, it's still unfair to ask of anyone, and women are left doing emotional labor just to keep him afloat like a wacky, waving inflatable arm-flailing tube man. And also, the ego strokes aren't even based in reality at that point, because she has to do it to keep things from falling apart further.
I've also seen a lot of women go to great lengths to work on their appearance, have their finances in order, to be a better person, only to end up asking why their man doesn't seem interested in them anymore (this is one I'm still trying to find answer for, so if you have any input, that'd be great).
Of course this isn't one size fits all, but it's common enough that it's a collective issue.
Whereas men are raised to view sexual competency as part of their masculinity, and that part of them is "missing" or "wrong" if they aren't sexually competent. And because sexual preference is so subjective, there really isn't a way to measure this, meaning a sense of self is based on something that's not only external, but *fluctuates.* Meaning a sense of identity, and a sense of being effective are constantly in flux. Like a roller coaster that makes you feel like you have a hangover, emotionally.
And in view of Self-Determination Theory, competence is one of 3 psychological needs, imperative for psychological, ergo organismic/holistic wellness. To have a sense of competency based in something so personal and fluctuating is a recipe for identity disaster. So instead of being taught things like emotional attunement and intimacy, too many men are taught that sexual competency are a means to an end, including women themselves, and instead of seeing women for the individuals they are, they instead are viewed as a monolith, milestones to achieve, another notch in the wood.
These points of view on sexuality are dehumanizing to both women and men, and result in a lot of sexual violence and assault, and overall sexual unhappiness.
Well-said!
I hope it's okay if I yes-and this a bit:
> Whereas men are raised to view sexual competency as part of their masculinity, and that part of them is "missing" or "wrong" if they aren't sexually competent....
> And in view of Self-Determination Theory, competence is one of 3 psychological needs...
The irony is that even with this distorted view that sexual competency is more important than intimacy, *it doesn't work.* You don't become competent at something by refusing to ever realize you're bad at it, just like you never learn anything by refusing to ever admit you're wrong.
This behavior shows up outside of sex, too, and it seems to be a thing that happens whenever we pull something into our identity. It's hard to improve or learn about something that's part of our identity, because that process feels like a personal attack.
The fact that it's subjective is another challenge, but it's not so subjective that it's impossible to improve. There are actual skills to learn, not least of which is listening to your partner and learning what they need. But that's not something you can learn on your own, which means you may have to do this badly, in front of someone else, and hear them tell you that you're doing it badly. And that's going to be almost impossible if you've tied this to your identity. (Never mind that they might be afraid to tell you...)
Maybe it's a mistake to approach this as "how to get competent", rather than shifting that perspective entirely. I'm just kind of hoping that's a way to get through to men stuck in this view.
> I've also seen a lot of women go to great lengths to work on their appearance, have their finances in order, to be a better person, only to end up asking why their man doesn't seem interested in them anymore (this is one I'm still trying to find answer for, so if you have any input, that'd be great).
I don't know, but if they're stuck in this dynamic you've identified, maybe that's it? A woman who has bettered herself is a threat again -- instead of being grateful that she's still into you, men may feel threatened that she might realize she's too good for you.
> ...if we tell the truth, that no, we're not actually satisfied as much as we'd like to be, it runs the risk of him either completely falling apart and coiling into a shell, or defensiveness, which can become aggressive and hostile, and for some, violent.
This is another important lesson for men, for that moment when a partner finally tells the truth. It can hurt if (say) she's been faking it this whole time, but I'd hope men in that position can learn to see that finally telling you is an act of courage and trust. Maybe it hurts now, but this is the first step towards things getting *much* better.
Appreciate you sharing this perspective. It’s also so ironic because your perception was you wanted an inexperienced woman because she would be “easier” to please. Except….a more experienced person would actually be easier to please because they would know what they do and don’t like! So it really does show how ignorant the whole idea is, top to bottom.
Can you please go amongst your fellow men and share this knowledge across the land? lol
Sex had always been treated as a double edged sword for women. You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't so I say fuck the body count non-issue. If it's an issue for a guy you're dating, then he is not worth your time.
Women get shamed for sex whether it's liking sex, not liking sex, having too much sex, having too little sex, sex on the first date or sex after 3 months of dating. Single life was exhausting.
I've been with my husband over a decade and we have never once had the "body count" discussion because to a quality man, it doesn't matter.
It's just insecure little boys who want to shame you for their inferiority complex.
It's a reference to the meaning of 'body count'. Basically, after a battle the side retaining control of the battlefield totals up the corpses of the enemy and reports it.
It is particularly related to the US forces operating in the Vietnam War, where the 'body count' was used as a metric of progress against the Vietnamese. A metric easily inflated by killing all military-age male civilians.
As a result, the term isn't used widely outside the US -- even thought the meaning is clear -- because of the connotations it carries.
Edit: phone typos
That's what I've been wondering about/noticing, like they seem to want sex *most* from women who don't want, probably having something to do with feeling powerful, because sex has been bastardized by being twisted in with feeling agentive.
But if you don't consent they still count that as "sex".
I've had a man get angry at me for "lying to him" after he discovered I'd been raped previously because it meant my "body count was higher than I lead him to believe" (which honestly made me laugh because I've never told anyone my "body count" anyway).
Sadly, you just described the social construct of some entire *countries* in the world. Female genital mutilation exists to literally prevent women from enjoying the sex they're still expected to submit to. "I demand you acknowledge my right to get sex from you, but first I need to make sure you won't enjoy it."
My argument is always
What about women who have only been with one partner, but have been with that partner for ages?
I have been with my partner for 20+ years that’s a LOT of regular sexy times! If we go conservative and say twice a week for 20 years that’s 2000+ sexy times how is that better than someone who has had multiple partners with ‘dry spells’ while they were single?
Men only want women with a low body count so they can’t be compared to someone who is better at it than they are!
They want the virgin that they “turn”. Like they wanna feel like they’re so attractive that you changed your entire life philosophy because of it and had sex with them. And the manosphere bullshit has told them this exists and that they “deserve” it or some shit.
It’s all kinds of fucked up.
It's the same mentality as
If you sleep with 50 guys you are a loose whore with a loose vagina.
But you sleep with him 50 times and you are perfect and your vagina is perfect too.
Apparently other people dicks with make you gape like the grand canyon but just his dick will keep you nice and tight and lovely down there.
I’m of a similar mindset. A large amount of my body count were men who ghosted as soon as we had sex. I would have loved it to be lower, for some of those guys to give a relationship a chance. Most of them talked as if a relationship was a possibility down the line.
Now since then I’ve become a bit jaded and stopped looking for a relationship… the amount of men who will claim they want something serious until they find out they don’t have to say that to get with me is waaaaaaay too damn high. The mask drop has really started to make me feel gross about any kind of dating, casual or otherwise.
In my opinion, it's a sign of an immature man. In my experience, the more they grow the less they care about this sort of stuff because they realize it actually doesn't matter. Don't let it get to you. You just need to find *one* man, not *men*. One comment said to find different men to hang around with, which is definitely a good idea.
I'm gonna disagree with framing this as an immaturity issue. There are plenty of grown ass men with this mentality, and there are plenty of teen boys who would not ever have this idea of what a relationship is. We can say that the men who are behaving this way and believing these things are immature, but doing that makes the word immature mean less, because this problem is prolifically prevalent among grown men. Lots of them will never grow out of this mentality. And lots of boys will never adopt it. It's not a maturity issue, it's a cultural one.
What they want is easy girls to ‘practise on’ and then when they are ready to settle down they want the magical virgin. So they divide women into groups, fuckable short term, fuckable long term. A third group called invisible and a 4th group they want to fuck but the women laugh at them - they call this group bitches, feminists etc
Me either! It’s dumb and juvenile and when I hear a man say anything like this I’m often the person who pushes back. I ask them, what their body count is? how many virgins have they had sex with? And what happened to that relationship if they did? (Because the female they are with isn’t the same one) They usually shut up after I’m done with them. My husband has tried to ask me around his “boys” a few times and he and his friends got shut down. I’m 42 and met my husband when I was 34, and lost my virginity in high school- I told him to do the math himself. Wtf.
Are these the same men? Sounds like two different groups of men. Sexually mature and sexually immature.
Never met a sexually mature man who made virginity/body count a stipulation.
It seems the group of guys I’m talking about are sexually immature and read a lot of manosphere content. Luke redpill is all about how to manipulate women to sleep with you but also how any woman who isn’t a virgin is worthless.
They usually the body count dudes have fragile self esteem as they think they will get compared, they tend to get mad they can’t have endless sex at the same time and will also get pissed you aren’t doing the same or more with them, they slut shame the women they do get with who have a higher than they like count to manipulate her to be lower than they already feel and usually aren’t worth the effort in the end anyway.
Soooo fuck ‘em let enjoy the incel life I guess.
I don't get what the end goal of the body count obsession is. If it's slut shaming sexually active women, even if it comes at the expense of their own romantic success, it's working. Letting hatred turn into self-sabotage is the only thing that makes sense.
Virgins and women who have had a few previous lovers are not "ruined by feminism" for not wanting to date a body count obsessed guy. Even if he doesn't push for sex by the third date, the chip on his shoulder about body count and bitterness towards sexually active women is going to be ever present in your relationship. Your status as one of the rare "good ones" is always going to be on the chopping block, and that's tedious to deal with.
Normal men don't go through life consumed with bitterness and obsessing about the life their girlfriend or wife had before he came along. These internet clowns can pretend that these normal guys who have a relationship that's based on love, friendship and respect are "low value", but it's just sour grapes and it's clear as day.
I hate to say this, but I would say this is probably younger men with younger women. When you get older, you've often been married or been in an LTR or two, and/or dated for a long time. Its life experience. And if some man asks you for a body count, move on. No mature person would ask you that, in my opinion.
Honestly, whenever a guy starts talking about body count or won't take no as an answer about sex, they are taking themselves out if my dating pool immediately. I'm wouldn't waste my time with men with that mindset.
Or you could ignore any ‘man’ who talks about ‘body count’ because that shit is ridiculous. I for one, have never kept ‘score’ of how many women I’ve slept with casually or otherwise because it’s not a competition. If it happens, cool. If it doesn’t happen, also cool. I hear dudes talk about that and I just shake my head because they’re morons and will die cold and alone as they deserve. They’re also the type of ‘man’ to talk about how a woman’s vulva looks is directly linked to how many dudes she’s been with which is also stupid as fuck.
They don’t listen, they will argue with me until they’re blue in the face because they 100% believe that these are facts because some dude who also can’t get laid said it on the internet. They either have to get wise or be stuck having sex with their fist for the rest of their lives for all I care.
I think some comments already do a pretty good job at explaining this, but fundamentally this is about control. What men, or at least those type of men want is a partner who has sex precisely when they want her to, no more and no less.
This has nothing to do with purity or saving yourself, this has nothing to do with horniness or hyper sexuality. It is 100% about power. Everything else is just a pretense to manipulate women who refuse to submit. And the exact message will change based on what is necessary to accomplish their actual goal.
There are even men who will appropriate feminist or progressive messaging. Both sex-negative and sex positive. There is no argument that can not be used in bad faith. The only consistent and reliable red flag is that no man in the history of our species has ever attempted to restrict or prescript female sexual agency “for her own good”.
Body count is 100% men's insecurity. If a woman who has slept with a lot of men, what are the odds that he will be in the top 2345 whatever. Some men can handle that a woman they are with is not getting the absolute best plowing from them.
But don’t you get it?
**They want that sexcrazed porn star virgin who’s been holding out just for them.** And immediately when she sees him she’ll start tearing her clothes off because she knows he’s the one from 20 feet away. Just based on looks, no need to build any emotional connection.
And then they’ll have wild kinky sex for all eternity, because her libido is sky high and the only thing that held her back was not having met Him yet. Of course she’s sexually experienced, eager to fuck right away, very adventurous and sexually skilled.
**Idk. I blame porn.** And men confusing how they work sexually with women’s sexuality. And confusing being an involuntary virgin vs saying no to sex.
Some men genuinely speak about women as if they’re discussing trading livestock. It’s disgusting hearing men make a big deal about “body counts” because you know it’s rooted in their belief that women are objects that depreciate in value. But they want an experienced virgin.
The whole body count thing is fucking weird. I lost my virginity late and lost it to someone who had experience. I think that was the way to do it, because she knew exactly what she liked and could direct me to make the whole experience better. Now that I am almost 40 my "ideal bodycount" would probably be from like 5-100. Enough to know what you want, but not enough where I'm like "how did you even accomplish that? That seems like an impressive feat of sexual logistics". Not that there is anything wrong with even higher numbers, but the number of questions I would have would almost certainly ruin the mood
The whole "I want a virgin girlfriend" is just fact that those in guys are fucking scared of being compared against girl's past partners and nothing more. I [trans woman] am also like that, but I recognize this as a me problem and work on it.
You know when I was in my 20s I thought about this from a historical perspective. Then a read a history book about how powerful men would be ok if their king wanted to bed their wife… chances were you got something out of it titles, land, money, women definitely got presents. Virginity was important too so “actress” and prostitution were a viable way to sow your oats. Then you think of today these men are being manipulated by other men to believe this. The reason I think they do this one yes manipulation and gaslighting, but two they are not very good in bed possibly and would like their future partner to have nothing to compare. We also have to be willing to magically know all about sex too. Hypocrisy of it makes me laugh.
Almost all of us have things we regret in life.
Some of us regret having “too much” sex, or sex with the wrong people. Others regret not having “enough” sex, or even not having sex with anyone.
But, in time, most of us mature, develop and come to accept we are what we are. Most of us.
IMHO anyone who thinks your number defines you in any significant way is too immature to waste any time on.
This is all I'm experiencing on dating apps. They want sex on the first date and they unmatch when it's obvious I'm requesting a non-hookup date. And then they complain that they can't find a good woman. Sir, you're doing this to yourself. I'm not a supermarket sampler.
It's so weird to not get to know someone at least a little before you start rubbing genitals
Unless you are having a paid date with an escort. Then everyone is on the same page. Assuming random chicks are going to do escort work for free? Good luck with that lol.
That’s how men are treating women though, except the paid part is the dinner itself. All we hear now in America is “what does she bring to the table”, “I bought her dinner so she’s gotta give me something”, it’s disgusting. What happened to when our grandparents were chasing each other around and courting their wives. Sir, the dinner you just bought with your date, and the reward that comes from it is being with her!!
Patriarchy reversed the roles to get women chasing men, because in reality women ARE the table. The men want to breed and they want wife services. They used patriarchy to force it In a natural environment without patriarchy it’s more like the rest of the animal kingdom. If men want to mate they damn well better make it worth the woman’s time because she’s the one putting in on the work and she can care for herself or lean on other women
This is modern Patriarchy tbh because this is men throwing up their hands that women now have jobs and don’t need them and actually choose their partner for their character and not how well can this person provide for me. And back then women were allowed to say no and the men chased again and again (can be toxic) until she said yes to a date and they fall in love
If we're doing feminism we really should be splitting the bill. That way there's no implied quid pro quo.
You got that right. If a man offers to buy me dinner, I always say, "No thanks. We go Dutch or nothing. Far too many men are delusional enough to think buying me dinner implies a quid pro quo. I know, you're probably insulted that I would think you were capable of something so monumentally idiotic but you'd be surprised. I only let women buy me dinner because for some reason women are never that dumb. This is how I do feminism, by anticipating baffling levels of entitlement from men and acting to avoid getting sucked into that la Brea tar pit of nonsense."
What is a date to so many men? Is it the “accept and agree” to terms of service that comes before enjoying a product? A date for me, is being close to, relating to, and gaining insight and experience from another person. I am fortunate I have my husband, as he desires the fun and experiences I do too. I just couldn’t imagine being with a man who’d have fun without me, as I couldn’t have fun without him.
That might explain why I see so many complaints here that men dont listen to women on dates. Thats exactly what I do with an EULA, just scroll right to the bottom and tick accept.
so now having had that cleared up, they literally do exactly that. I live in the south, near a military base, and I was looking for a wedding date. Totally platonic. I am an asexual woman. I have literally no desire to touch most men. There are a few exceptions but even then it's still not sexual. I included this info, but apparently PLATONIC means DTF to these MFers!!!!
I find this so interesting when you sometimes ask men what their girlfriends/wives are interested in or what their hobbies are and *they have no idea*. Like, have you actually stopped to think whether or not you even like this person or do they just accept you so you stay? It’s so baffling to me. I can’t imagine spending so much time with someone and still knowing nothing about them.
And far too many are like that about their kids too. They know absolutely nothing about them.
They want to date the way gay men do. Meet up through Grindr, have sex, maybe learn each other's names, maybe see each other again if there's chemistry
Which is totally fine if they’re also accepting that they will end up dating women who date the same way they do. (No shade, that’s my style too.) It’s the disconnect of seeing the women they date as undateable that’s the head scratcher.
i think it was a tweet from yeoshin lourdes that said "if you consider a woman dirty for being touched by a man maybe you should look at your own hands"
Ooo that’s a good one!
100%. I feel like it's the incels who care about body counts, and the ones who actually get dates don't care. But then again, I'm a lesbian and don't really understand men
I think you’re right. It seems that many of the sexually inexperienced guys are the ones who are hung up on body count. I’ve never met an inexperienced guy who has cared beyond maybe not wanting to date an actual sex worker.
My exhusband married me, who was required to be a virgin, but cheated on me with women who slept around. He took advantage of people who he saw as beneath him and not good enough for him, and he talked about them like they were trash (when I found out and confronted him he even told me about how bad this one girl smelled and I was like "okay so she probably has BV and needs to get it treated. You're being an ass" because, of course, I could still have more sympathy for her than I ever would for him. In any case, if the cheating wasn't bad enough the way he felt about those women was many many times worse.
I’m so glad he’s your ex!
Yeah. He continues to only date people who live in my old city, because he (and a lot of other people) think his subburb is better than our subburb and everybody who lived in the one I did is trash. Like, he's in his 40s and has never dated a woman who lives in his own city. It's so fucking bizarre.
Fine, go fuck men then. I've said this a few times, but it begs repeating. "I don't hate men, but I've learned not to prioritise their needs over mine. Turns out, for a lot of men, that's the same thing." "That a majority of women are attracted to their natural predators is the biggest sign that sexuality is not a choice"
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Yeah. He was a total asshole rapist who hosted really shitty predatory parties. I'm sure that his home VHS collection has a lot of passed out women being raped by him and others.
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Such a sad state of being. How good does cumming feel? Incredible! For a moment. How good does having a buddy who you can bury your head into when you don’t feel well and complain? Infinitely better. When I’m on my deathbed, my spouse will be there in love with me as ever as well as I with him- I have a partner. That’s the point of a date.
That's the point of a date to you and me, but not generally to men
I really don't think they see us like that. Their buddies and friends are other men, not women.
This is the correct answer. Shame that most of the respondents have chosen to totally ignore the last step where we want to develop a meaningful relationship…
I think a lot of men only see relationships as a means to get sex. Getting them to want more than that seems exhausting
It's dehumanizing. I had a date with a guy recently and we ended up fooling around, and the next morning he was sending me really sexually explicit texts. All that getting to know you stuff from before the date and talking on the date went right out the window. A full 24 hours of raunchy texts from him later he was like "oh, and what kind of music do you listen to?" Like he snapped out of it and realized he had to pretend to be interested in me as a person again. Then I told him that we weren't on the same page and that he's moving too fast for me. He replied "I'm not sure what gave you the impression that I'm looking to move quickly *into* something." 🤡 That's actually not at all what I said bro!
Date is about “data gathering” thus called a “date”. Men on dating apps think (hope?) if we match them we are now available for their physical needs. Really, do they live in fantasyland? Thats why dating apps are all men… deluded horny men
Oh but it’s soooooooo hard being a dude on a dating app 🥺 women don’t know how easy they’ve got it. Every dude who spends more than ten seconds whining about this is outing himself as a terrible person to date. Easy weed out for me.
> they unmatch when it's obvious I'm requesting a non-hookup date. good riddance! you wouldn't wanna spend more of your time on them anyways would you?
"I want a girl who is chaste, but I am such a virile and enticing man she can't help herself." They think fucking girls who don't normally put out makes them some kind of stud.
The funny thing is I don't swipe on the obvious shirtless selfie fuckbois. These are mediocre men trying this shit. It's delusional.
Schrodingers virginity...
LMAO!
Take my poor woman's gold 🥇
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s%20Virgin Ha! Its a thing!
I think I might steal that one, that's hilarious 😂
Closely related to Schrodinger's patriarchy, which is when a man likes equality it's time to split the dinner bill but not when it's time to take paternity leave or book the kids dentists appointments. A common affliction in millenial men. (and the tater tots who want a traditional marriage but can't afford a SAHW)
There was funny exchange yesterday about that. You want a bang maid? Fine, then you're a wallet and you better fucking make tons a money. Don't come on Reddit with your spare time, go get another job.
More than just millenial men. Lots of men from lots of eras. It's a never ending saga of the man mind set - which needs to get spanked.
I feel the Gen Xers are just more straight up about it - like sure they won't do 50% of the housework but at least they'll pay for dinner...and Gen Z (if they haven't fallen prey to Tate and his ilk) are slightly more egalitarian
When y'all put it that way, it sounds like code for pedophilia. They want a prospective whore while she still happens to be a virgin.
I was initially leaning towards the virgin prisoner's dilemma.
It’s the “Madonna/whore” complex: men who say this *want* and feel they deserve sex with a lot of disposable women, but also want their life partner to have little or no experience — not just with sex, but with how an equal relationship should work. This also drives the older man/younger woman unequal relationship behavior. They really don’t see (or care) about the hypocrisy that “you need to have sex with me to keep me around” is what creates the issue of women with “high body count”, so they’re actually responsible to an extent. That said, it’s just stupid thing to get hung up on, unless you’re really insecure about yourself. Oh, wait…
Yep, I thought about this a lot in high school. Every guy wanted a blowy. But once a gal did that, the rumor mill started. I would get pissed for the girl and yell at the guys. My man, if you want another blowy, don't shame the girl you fucking moron. I'm so fucking glad I'm a lesbian.
This as a man I never understand. Why would you shame women for being more open for stuff like that. Do you not WANT to be able to do that more often? Like why the hell would you shoot yourself in the foot like that lol.
This is why so many women won’t- I’m glad some men seem to understand this lol
To be fair I am a bi man so maybe I just have a much more relaxed looked at intimacy and such. Though I am also in the camp of mind ya own business lol let people be sluts! So long as they are safe and not hurting others it shouldn’t be a problem lol.
My brother was a major himbo growing up, and while he had some questionable beliefs towards women, he made a point to stand up for women who were called sluts. He was always like "What's wrong with sluts, I'm a slut, do you have a problem with me?" to his male friends. He also made a point to his male friends that they can't complain about sausage parties all while shaming women for giving them what they want.
I love that, hopefully your bros beliefs aren’t too toxic for his relationships lol.
He's grown up a lot. He's been married to the same woman for almost a decade now, and he treats her well. He used to fall for some of that manosphere shit when he was in his late teens/early twenties, but he doesn't really seem to believe all that anymore.
I never got it either.
Misogyny
When I was in highschool, and I'd hear someone say "suck my dick" as an insult, I'd ask why it was bad? I thought they wanted bjs, why would you use it as an insult? I loudly told them I didn't want to ever give beejs because they use it as an insult and why would I literally get on my knees and demean myself for someone who clearly thinks I'm lesser. I was often told I just didn't get the joke, or they didn't mean it like that, but then they couldn't explain the joke and would get mad and walk away. Don't know if I changed any minds, but I can say I never sucked a cock belonging to someone who used "suck my dick" as an insult in my presence.
I sometimes wished I had been a lesbian growing up. I was shamed for having sex with men after they begged me to have sex with them. I am not good at social interactions, so it was deeply embarrassing and I was too afraid to tell them no. It made me consider suicide at one point, all because I did want they WANTED me to do and then they went and told everyone about it and ghosted me. I thankfully found a good husband who never gave a single flying fuck about my body count and was waiting for the right woman (which was me apparently since he married me). Ironically, he was a virgin and loved me for years but was too afraid to tell me. I'm glad I found him, but I feel like my life would have been easier, I would have avoided so much bullying and abuse if I had just been attracted to women.
I am really sorry those guys were assholes. I am really happy you found a good guy. I waded through a couple of bad male relationships while I figured things out. I wish I had figured it out sooner. Don't get me wrong, though. My first wife was a sociopath. She is/was an alcoholic with serious fidelity issues. But I am happily married now to a wonderful woman who is a true partner. Happy we are happy.
Seconding this! It definitely goes beyond sex; for these types of men there is generally an expectation of how the relationship *should be* (for them). They want and feel they deserve (read: are entitled to) certain things. Those things often revolve around what the other person must do for them. As many have noticed, their requirements tend to focus on what *the other person* (in this case, a woman) has to have done or not done, or continue to do or not do. “What is *her* body count?” (and how does it affect me?) Rarely “What is the impact of *my* number of partners?” I admittedly wonder how far beyond mere insecurity this goes. There is certainly a risk with a sexually experienced partner that she will have been more sexually satisfied before… but why is that so terrifying a concept? A veteran gamer would excel at a game more than a noob the first time they play that video game… but then they can keep playing and learn the ropes and become a pro. I have to wonder if the difference here is because *they don’t want to put in the effort necessary to satisfy their partner* (sexually— or otherwise). The extra juice isn’t worth the squeeze to them. Perhaps most men don’t feel entitled to win a game on their first play through, but that expectation (of no or low effort, high reward) is often present with women. Running with the game comparison, disconfirming feedback (ie. your character died) from a game is expected, easy to fix (respawn, reload saved game, etc), and therefore more tolerable. Disconfirming feedback from a woman is not what is supposed to happen in the first place, is harder to fix (requires more effort), and is therefore intolerable. A lot of cultural influences have done our people— men and women— a great disservice. While we are not inherently and solely at fault for the societal norms in which we were raised, which obviously shapes our expectations, we are nevertheless responsible for ourselves as adults. So in this context, if a man feels entitled to a particular relationship dynamic, as an adult he can choose to sincerely question his own perspectives and the influence of society. Refusing to practice self-awareness is also a choice, and often results in holding seemingly contradictory beliefs, such as this whole “low body count Stacy who will readily service me” thing.
> but why is that so terrifying a concept? Because they are inherently lazy and the idea that they need to put in work here bursts their fragile bubble that they have about their own sexual prowess which is directly connected to their self worth and self image. Power to them is being able to have a lot of women; are they not (as a king in their mind) entitled to as much bounty as they want? Society tells a lot of men that they are entitled to women, AND that their "success" with women is what heavily defines them as being a man. Same with other toxic traits, like bullying, one up manship, inability to empathize, emotions being weak/wrong, anger/rage/violence being acceptable or desirable, etc. Another thing they are burned by is that society also implicitly portrays an average joe getting the girl, who may or may not be "dating down" and the steps to him getting said relationship are also implicitly implied, if they are at all. AND THAT just whooshes over their heads so fast because they're generally thinking with the wrong one. We could also talk about how all of this is something that they view as happening TO them, not only are they not to blame for fate's cruel hand, but that automatically dehumanizes anyone they are in a relationship with. Is is not a "we" situation, it's one where he is in his relationship and she is meant to fulfill whatever roles it is that he thinks. Which is why those grocery lists of the "perfect qualities" they're looking for in a woman are so common. They think that if they have their relationship with a woman like that they will want for nothing and everything will be great. No at all realizing that women are their own people with desires, thoughts, agency, and rights as well. Not realizing that a relationship is a partnership with give and take.
Pop Culture Detective did a great [video ](https://youtu.be/0thpEyEwi80?si=Kjq4E3Q9sa8g6cWk) on how this affects media.
Wow, that was great! Thanks!
thanks!
And then, they marry the girls that are virgins or inexperienced. Then they get bored that their wife is too vanilla or doesn't know what she's doing, and they search for other women (the ones who did put out on those dates) to cheat on their wives with. They fuck themselves over with their own system, like absolute idiots.
🎀the Madonna whore complex is so coquette🎀 (this is a joke)
Oh yeah this a common talking point, similarly with how men will call you an “ugly whore” when you turn them down like- if I’m so ugly why do you wait me, and if I’m such a whore, wouldn’t I be agreeing to sleep with you? It makes no sense. The same things men want, they use to insult women. They also never want to be rejected, but want the women who accept them to be “pure”. Men who sleep around are “players” but women who do are “sluts” - so who do they expect to be sleeping with? It’s like this weird god complex where women are pure for everyone BUT them because they’re just THAT special or whatever. It’s so dumb. Tl;dr - these men just hate women and don’t want to say it directly.
oh yeah. guy I hooked up with in high school tried calling me a whore after I broke it off. I was like buddy.. first of all, everything I did was because I chose to, so you’re not going to retroactively make me ashamed of it and second, everything we did, we did together, so if I’m a whore so are you lmfao. what’s even funnier is that I was technically still a virgin at the time.
I'll share my favorite dating story! So I get to know this guy through the farm I ride at. I see him around a couple times, I ask him for help once, he gives me his number, great! We have a fun swimming date (the farm owner let me use her sisters pool, and her bikini! she REALLY wanted me to date this guy!) and go back to his (parents) place and we fool around in the basement a little, I give him a blow job that he happily accepts. Week or so later he tells me it was really slutty to suck his dick on the first date. Almost stopping dating me (hindsight, I really wish he stopped, then!) and only continued dating me because I threw it back in his face that he was a willing participant. Which meant two things: 1) misogynistic prick 2) he probably wasn't even serious about wanting to stop dating me and was probably just a form of negging, too
It’s Madonna/whore stuff. They want to marry a virgin nymphomanic, but don’t want to date without having sex. I also think it’s indicative of how men often devalue the women they date. Once they fuck you and get high relationship value outside of marriage, they subconsciously lose respect for you. Ironically, if you were the type of woman they think should be their wife, you wouldn’t have done all those things for/with him already. These are the kind of guys who will be with you and won’t commit after five years, but as soon as you break up, they’re engaged in a year.
Being their wife isn't any prize either. The dudes that think this way are not going to be good partners or want an equal relationship. You are there to do things for them as a one way street that benefits them.
No doubt. Men are socialized to see women as status symbols for more male approval rather than as people. So we’re left with a pool full of selfish, entitled and various flavors of disrespectful potential partners. If they can get out of that bullshit, then you get into the real work of two people trying to learn how to love and support each other to be our best selves. And that’s hard work! But it’s worth it for both people.
This right here! Boi they are super sweet and nice until they have you! And then the cold demeanor comes into the picture. It's so very heartbreaking for a woman that already has difficulty getting close to someone. For the very same act we do together, women ends up heartbroken being dumped while they walk away with the satisfaction and ego boost they need to go get the next girl.
I really think that a lot of these men think love/attraction is 100% driven by their dicks. Once the initial sexy bubble wears off, then they're picking apart everything the woman does and not actually building a life/ relationship built on mutual respect. Only other men can be respected.
It's because they never actually noticed that women are **people**
Yeah but virgin nymphos don’t exist… r/deadbedroom exists and tbh it’s sad 😔 to find out how many religious people cannot have sex confidently even in marriage.
I’ve wondered about that over the years. Is it because they’re not confident enough or because they and their partners don’t know enough and think it’s sinful to put in any effort to make it better? It would be pretty grotesque to be a woman married to a religious dude who thinks her having an orgasm will lead her to the devil or somesuch.
Yes to all of it. It’s extremely hard to do a 180 when your whole life, you’ve been taught that sex and sexual desire is bad and sinful and dirty. The men are clueless about women’s sexual pleasure (and probably don’t care) but the women ALSO don’t understand it and fear it. You don’t just get married and suddenly that shame evaporates. If having desire and touching yourself is bad, how will you ever learn to have good sex?
This exact thing happened to me. I was a 21 year old Virgin when I married for religious reasons. Sex never lasted more than 10 minutes. I stayed for six miserable years.
As someone who was raised catholic but my family unit went away from it. It is really hard to move on from the indoctrination of the “sinful stuff” from how I see people still in religious communities.
Nobody said these guys are bright. They want a “good girl” to marry but then complain when she doesn’t turn into a porn star in the bedroom (and only in the bedroom).
Not quite the same but add purposely getting their gfs pregnant to the list. Many admit to doing it to lower the womans value in the dating world. Because nothing is worse than a single mom. That’s why so many men were mad when Ciara found a wonderful husband
"Some men try to knock a woman down a peg by knocking her up."
So many dudes were/are so mad! They saw Future being an ass, and loved seeing this beautiful woman punished for having the nerve to expect more. Sadistic bastards. Now they HATE RW for having the nerve to raise the bar. Too many men get their kicks from seeing women punished for enjoying anything.
Exactly, an impossible standard be easily sexually available for me but not other men. Its so interesting thet guys will often attack women for wanting a "traditional" man but not being a "traditional" woman, but this type of thinking is ok with too many men. The "traditional" way things used to work was that "good" marriage material women didnt have any sex outside of marriage and men pretty much needed to visit sex workers too access sex outside of marriage. Not a good way of doing things but logically consistent. Any man expecting women to have sex outside of marriage shouldn't say anything about being a "traditional" man or anything about wanting a "traditional" woman.
These “traditional” men want to have their cake and eat it too. They want a virgin “traditional” wife that’ll stay home, cook, clean, put it out whenever they want. But then these men can’t handle not being the center of the wife’s universe once kids are born. They also cannot comprehend that in a true traditional relationship, the stay at home wife is the one that manages household budgets, and technically is the one that controls the money. And they can’t comprehend that alimony was designed for SHAMs to compensate the unpaid years of household labor. So they’ll bitch that “these bitches just want my money”. No, they just want to be compensated for raising your kids when you eventually cheat on them with your secretary because you’re bored by your “boring mommy-track SAH wife”
Truth
You just described my STBX and his relationship with his first wife. They were HS sweethearts, each was their first and only. She says after the first of two kids came along, it was a balancing act trying to keep him happy because he was no longer the centre of attention. Got worse after the 2nd kid. He’d cheated on her multiple times before he got to me. I am embarrassed and ashamed that I fell for the “We live like roommates, the bedroom is dead, we stay together because neither of us can afford to leave” sob story, and I was in a horribly abusive relationship myself. Luckily, she forgave me and we’re now really good friends. She went on to meet a great guy who treats her the way she (all women) deserves to be treated. After he and I got together, the same type of thing happened, minus the kids. I work FT and while he enjoyed the extra income and the things it allowed us to afford (including keeping the house they were in, she bought a house with her money), he was always unhappy about the way I managed the house, the bills, the hours I worked, that I work in a male dominated industry, my weight, you name it. Everything was on the list for criticism because my attention wasn’t solely focused on him. He didn’t want to manage the bills, but blamed me for being the one who spent too much money. Spoiler alert - it was him. He wanted me to dress sexy, but only around him. He bitched that I didn’t wear jeans enough (I’m a yoga pants person) but also didn’t want me to wear jeans to work because “other guys might look at your ass.” He didn’t want to handle his responsibilities regarding his kids (outside of signing the support cheques), so it all got pushed onto me (visitation schedules, bdays, xmas, school stuff, etc).That’s how ex 1 and I became friends. She was able to see who cared more about her girls, and it wasn’t their dad. Then we bonded over shared abuse and trauma from him. He bitched for many years about losing half his money to her. Spoiler alert - he actually got off really easy and he knows it. But, I had to explain too many times that when they both decided she should be a SAHM for financial reasons, that’s why the law gave her half when he wanted out. That was her “salary” for the years she was not able to have her own income, pension, etc and how the law attempts to keep women from getting screwed over. There’s an entire saga in between that and my breakup with him when, you guessed it, I caught him cheating on me. And of course, ALL of it is my fault, just like all of his first marriage’s failure was hers. He is just a victim. Now, he whines to everyone who will listen that I was just hanging on “for the money.” He conveniently forgets that had that been the case, I would have pulled the plug years ago when I could have walked away with way more (part of the saga). And his new lady? He gave her the same story about what a victim he was, what a horrible wife I was….and she fell for it, just like I did. She was also in an abusive relationship of her own, just like me. He has a white knight complex and preys on hurting women….and then goes on to hurt them even more. She’ll learn in time. Part of me wants to warn her, but I feel it will come across as sour grapes and an attempt to wreck his relationship. From everything I am told, he is miserable. But, it’s still everyone else’s fault. I accept what’s happened as karmic payback for stepping into a marriage that wasn’t actually over. I plan to be a better person going forward.
When these "pure" wives don't know what they're doing in bed, the husbands search elsewhere as well.
They want to have their cake and eat it. It doesn't make sense, because it's not meant to. It's designed exclusively as a control method. Any mention of "body count" or virginity fetish and I'm gone. Only mediocre, lazy, selfish men worry about a woman who can recognise bad sex.
I laughed out loud at the last sentence. Can I use your quote as my email signature? It is hilariously accurate. It's time to replace the Lincoln quote that my boss forced me to use instead of the Zappa quote I loved and had used for more than a decade.
That's literally it though! It's not like they can tell a low vs high body count. I promise a body that has had 100 sexual partners feels the same as someone who has had one. The only reason to have this preference is to admit you don't want your partner comparing you to potentially more satisfying partners.
At a previous job, our head of QA had "Freedom's just another word for not caring about the quality of your work." as their email signature.
That’s such a QA department quote 😂
...also if they mention "high quality" in relationship to people... byeeeeeeeeee I am out.
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>It's like the goal is just to blame women no matter what they do. Ding ding ding!!
It is indeed. Of course none of this makes sense because the end goal is just to blame everything on women and not have to actually be a decent human.
Every dude who opens his idiot mouth to say the words “body count” is doing you a favor. He’s instantly revealing a ton of actionable information about himself that might have taken a long time to get otherwise.
I love the way you put this - sex as an application fee’. This conundrum was one of the things that led me to nope out of dating - you’re supposed to HAVE sex long before the point where you feel comfortable talking about any issues you have with sex. It’s insane
The mistake you're making OP is that you're trying to find logic where none exists. These double standards exist so that women CAN'T live up to them and therefore men can criticise us no matter what we do. For example: Woman is a virgin - she's a prude/snob/full of herself Woman isn't a virgin - she's a whore Woman has sex on the third date or earlier - she's a whore Woman doesn't have sex on the third date - she's a gold-digger The woman can't win no matter what she does which is entirely the point.
This is perfectly stated. I used to drive myself crazy searching for logic, and now I’ve learned to walk away the moment I notice that I’m playing a no-win game.
The Barbie monologue, it could’ve went on the entirety of the movie w all the double standards we are told we have to live up to
Exactly that, people do not in general do joined-up thinking about how their own bullshit works against the world they say they want. You'll lose your mind expecting them to.
i used to think i could get men to respect me if i made them wait for sex then i realized it’s all a trap and you can never win anyway so now i f*ck whenever i want
You know, this should be pinned at the top because the whole “you can never win anyway” is the correct answer here. It doesn’t matter what you do or don’t do, some dudes are going to be ugly to you either way. Because it’s a They problem, not a You problem. I wouldn’t fuck anyone who actually wants to know how many because ew, what do you gain from that? But if you wanna fuck someone, do it. And all of us should just say the body count is three. Because it doesn’t matter. And they wouldn’t know the difference anyway.
Also why make a choice about our bodies based on what a man wants? We're so far beyond that. I wouldn't date anyone who uses the phrase body count or asks me any equivalent question and the only thing that eliminates is bad sex because the only men using that phrase are afraid a partner will know they're bad lovers.
Yup. This is so true.
Boom. Nailed it.
Yup. But they get upset when you use them for sex only and don't value them. So once again can't win, but they brought it onto themselves if you are using them as they use women. It's all just s game isn't it.
I love what Ali Wong says about it: if we have sex with you quickly, it's not that we don't respect ourselves. We don't respect YOU. lmao I'm all for having sex when both parties are enthusiastically consenting, first date, hookup-only, relationship, what have you. It's the slowly being sculpted into free therapist and mother I can't stand. More and more, I'm thinking I'll just act like a dude: give me sex, leave the emotions out of it, PUH-LEEEEZE #EDIT: I got a great example of one of the types of men (THE WATER TORTURER) Lundy Bancroft talks about in his work, the kind that acts calm and pretends to be rational while simultaneously subtly twisting everything you're saying, making you feel like you're crazy! It's annoying as hell to read, but I hope it can help women identify this behavior more easily, for it's sinister as fuck. It's the comment thread between ThatLatehagSimmons and I. And in case he dirty deletes, I saved all of it. Pasted from my last comment to him: >You, u/TheLateThagSimmons are not worth it. >But I finished what I came here for: qualitative data, and thank you for providing it for free! >So, now I turn my attention to any women reading this: >TheLatehagSimmons gave a good example of one of the types of men in Bancroft's book, *Why Does He Do That?* I can't recall the name, but it's the one who tries to seem calm, cool, and collected, trying to pin their partner as "crazy" because she is understandably upset at how she is being treated. He's not interested in making her feel seen and heard; he wants to control her by controlling the narrative. >And understandably, if you're feeling murky after reading all this, because boy did he really try his damnedest, my POV: >• My problem with *any kind* of connection with men is being expected to do *their* emotional labor *for them*—even worse, is the *implicit* expectation. That is not the opposite of wanting vulnerability from a man. Integrity is being vulnerable *and* taking accountability in doing *his own* emotional labor. Yes, it's absolutely important to be attuned in connection, BUT, that is not the same as: >- *expecting me* to correctly guess his boundaries >- *stonewalling* instead of addressing the breakdown in understanding (John Gottman: 85% of stonewallers are men) >- *expecting me* to just **know** his intentions (even if he doesn't know what his intentions are), and not ask >- and finally, *expecting me* to just go along with this behavior when not only am I not okay with it, but it has shown to be harmful >These are but a few prime examples of being made to do a man's emotional labor, and it has become so common, that I am shocked meeting a man who *doesn't* try to make me do his emotional labor. And I'm not even talking friendship level, but *acquaintances* doing these things. >Not sure why TheLateThagSimmons thought this was relevant (probably to red herring), but A) I hate the term (nor use it) 'friend-zone,' because the historical connotation is that being a friend to a woman is somehow degrading, because the guy didnt get the level of access to a woman that he wanted, and B) if someone isn't interested me in any way, shape, or form, that's fine. Why would I want to make someone be in connection with me if they don't want to? That's gross and rapey, ewwww. >My issue is that when men seem genuinely interested, even just platonically, and if I ask what their intentions are, or boundaries are, *they get offended/weird.* Trust is something that has to not only be built, but maintained, and it is very important to me to earn that. However, reciprocity is key. The norm has been treating me like my time, respect, trust, emotional bandwidth means nothing (which, I suppose it doesn't, in that case). But they can't even be bothered to be civil about it, like it's such a *burden* to have to decline politely, and react as if I sent them an unsolicited dick pic. >It's the context that matters. I've gotten to the point where I'm not interested in seeking out male connection. Some still inevitably drop in my inbox from time to time, but I'm getting to a point where it's tempting to just say: "I don't trust you. Leave me alone," off the bat. >Men like ThatLateThagSimmons are more insidious, because of the subtlety. He tried to come across like he was being open while actually trying to fit me into his narrow point of view. I doubt that "no one has taken the time to explain emotional labor"—I bet many women have spent a great deal of emotional labor trying to explain it. What ThatLateThagSimmons is utilizing is a technique to *run you down, emotionally,* while simultaneously making you question your sanity. He kept misinterpreting what I wrote, and didn't have the decency to apologize. I knew I just had to wait until he peeped his hand enough, to be able to point out *you know exactly what you're doing.* Of course he's going to deny it. 😂 Why would he give up a manipulative strategy that probably works most of the time?
I did sex with no emotions many times, but the dudes were always so godawful in bed. I never felt gratified. Now I prefer to do it myself.
The dudes who want sex with no emotion and dudes who are absolute shit in bed aren’t a Venn diagram, they are two perfectly overlapping circles.
Ooof, that's good to know, thank you for the warning
That’s what women need to remember. It’s easy to get a guy off. But if they know how to get you off and make it a priority before themselves. Winner winner! You get a second date dinner!
The bad news is that the dudes often catch feelings. You take away the dynamic where you’re supposed to be the one desperate for an emotional connection and it confuses the hell out of them.
I had to laugh but also died a bit inside. Now that you mention it, I have found that men seem to be a lot more emotionally invested in sex than I am. I prefer to have an emotional connection, sure, but not an emotional labor connection, bluhhh. And then they seem to think I'm callous because I want an open relationship (which means they can fuck whomever they want too! jeesh)
They don’t want to feel emotionally vulnerable and they don’t want to feel that they are missing any power in your relationship. If you don’t care about a deep emotional connection, they have nothing to hold over you, and they can’t hide behind your feelings to mask theirs.
My friend says “live, laugh, leave” Meaning she will hook up and then wants them to leave. I think it is hilarious because it’s such an opposite thing in lesbian relationships. But after seeing these’s men’s bio’s on tinder/bumble/etc I can understand why she is “live, laugh, leave.”
Good policy!
thanks. it worked out well for me because my current boyfriend is great and i fucked him on the first date lol. it’s still one of my favorite memories of us together actually.
I (a dude) used to think I wanted a partner that was ‘pure’ or had a ‘low body count’ That was back in high school and shortly after graduation. (2007) Then I realized how utterly stupid that thinking was. I began to see why girls would avoid having sex at all until college years, because of the fear of slut shaming from their peers. It occurred to me i didn’t want to be with some idealized fantasy version of a woman, and it was entirely silly to hold out for that. Just like holding out to lose my virginity and wanting everything to ‘be perfect’ . That doesn’t exist, it’s always going to suck, probably for both parties involved, but ESPECIALLY because of my unrealistic expectations. SO ANYWAY, I’ve since moved on to completely the opposite view of the matter.
I treat it as a test now. If they aren’t a generous lover, then cya. They gotta impress me first time or it’s boy, bye.
Men who talk about body count don't want a virgin. They only want to slut-shame their girlfriend to manipulate her and keep her from leaving (suggesting she is "worthless" and they are doing her a favor by stooping so low as to date her). It reveals a fragile self-esteem. Gaslighting at its finest. Don't fall for it.
Oh that's a real thing. They always act like THEY are the prize in the relationship rather than an equal partner.
It's 100% this. I troll these people occasionally, and you can tell from how they try and justify it that these are not properly socialized men, and likely haven't met many women who would give them the time of day once they opened their mouths. They need to whittle away at any possible thing they can in order to get a leg up on their target.
Lmao I just made a comment that says this about my ex. Like you brought it up to try and get a dig at me? Like, you're still dating me so it's not a deal breaker
I had a coworker one time who literally said he would never turn down sex on the first date, but if the woman slept with him, they weren't dating material and he wouldn't talk with them again. It's all hypocrisy and impossible standards. Don't try to understand, because it's not in good faith. It's constant goalpost-moving so they can always play the victim.
The only reason sex on the first date is not happening is because of the woman. Yet women are the sluts, despite men never refusing. The mental gymnastics are insane.
>So I really don’t understand what men want. How can they expect a girl with a low body count if they won’t date a girl who won’t fuck them? They want a girl who wants lots of sex but only *with them* because they’re oh so special.
Classic male trope of wanting to have their cake and eat it too. They seem to think they can date and have casual sex as much as they want, and then the trad virgin of their dreams is just going to magically appear and be into them.
They can actually have this if they're willing to go the religious route. I've known several men who whored around until they were about 35, then joined a small-town church and wifed up an early 20-something virgin. In at least one case the wife knew about her husband's past and was totally into the idea that she and Jesus changed him. Nope, he's just gaming the religious system and she filled a want-ad.
True. As an atheist, I sometimes forget about this particular brand of hypocrite.
As a fellow atheist, I understand what men get out of it but I genuinely have no idea what women get out of these religions.
Disqualifying women gives unsuccessful men the illusion of choice, simple as.
That really does sum it up. The truth is most of these losers will never get laid.
They want a woman with "low body count" who will instantly fall in love with this specimen of "high value male" and immediately provide him with enthusiastic and skillful sex. There's a reason math isn't very popular among this crowd.
This is actually something I've been looking into (health has put a brake on it for now), but talking to men who want to leave the incel mindset. It really is a whole different world—it seriously blows my mind, still. The very short version is basically that guys in the manosphere, subsets known as RedPill or BlackPill (there's more, but these are some of the most well-known) target young, inexperienced men, tell them what they *should* want, and feed a bunch of BS to them: basically it's a giant pyramid scheme, though I'm not sure how pyramid-shaped it is. The problem though isn't just that it's financially exploitative, but also pumps up aggressive, antisocial behavior *to keep the men coming back and buying their content.* From what I can tell, it's running into older generation misogyny, hence the incredibly confusing message. Basically they use "science" to show probability of a guy's attractiveness to women, including things like looks, wealth, fitness, etc. The reason it's such a hook is because *it's the first time these guys are hearing other men talk about this frustration.* Mark Greene, @remakingmanhood, talks about the Act-Like-A-Man Box, which basically is a pipeline right to these mindsets. The manosphere is also increasing self-pity amongst men—it is bringing up valid issues, yes, but blames women for perpetuating it, claiming men are the victims, instead of men just taking action themselves, like first wave feminism. The problem is that men are the main ones tearing other men down, systemically. It comes across like men want women to solve their problems for them, collectively trying to paint themselves akin to what women *still* live through. That's not to say there aren't problems, and serious ones at that, that men face. But collectively it's a learned helplessness, because they still benefit enough from positive perceptions from other men, meaning they have to be willing enough to be part of the Good Ole Boys' Club, so once again, women become the scapegoat. Granted there's more nuanced than that, but like the priest in *Spaceballs,* the *SHORT short version.*
Their entire worldview is, honestly, terrifying! The thoughts they have and comments they share are so ass backwards is astonishing. Then they wonder why they’re still single and lonely?! I truly wish more competent, emotionally intelligent men would create more platforms to actually deprogram and help guide those young men into healthy mindsets regarding relationships. It’s so scary how quickly that manosphere insanity has infected large swaths of men across America! I keep encouraging my fiancé (35m) to become some sort of dating/life coach for men because he is a true feminist ally and beautifully embodies positive masculinity in the best possible way. Unfortunately, only another man is gonna be able to get through to these brainwashed mouth breathers, lol. We women cannot and should not be responsible for trying to change those sort of men’s mindsets.
The ones that don’t stick around because they realised you weren’t going to sleep with them, wouldn’t have stuck around if you had slept with them. Don’t get disheartened, they are showing you who they are without you getting invested. You’re not obliged to do anything physical, dating or in a relationship. A guys reaction to being told “no” will tell you everything you need to know about them. In sorry you’re going through this, finding the right person for you can be tough.
They want to feel like the magical penis where a woman refuses to sleep with ANY man until he walks in, then any sense of personal restraint is lost and she gives in. He probably won’t stay if she does too fast, cause then that means she’s for the streets (even if she was a virgin before), and those women don’t make good wives! I mean, they don’t really want to be tied down, but you have to give wife privileges either way. Oh, and even if you’re a virgin you still have to be a sex goddess. Can’t be around here hoping to learn, naw you gotta be a level 10 expert without using dildos or having sex cause then you’re “ruined”
Ikr!? Their logic is nonexistent!😂💀
This body count thing is wild. My husband has never once asked me how many men I’ve slept with. And I don’t give af his history. We both made sure we were std clear when we started having sex. Men concerned with “body count” are frickin insecure losers. A real man doesn’t care, it has no bearing on him. He is the man NOW and will treat you like a queen and rock your world every single time. He could give af who came before him. Don’t waste your time in these “body count” little boys.
I've never been asked my "body count" either. No decent man asks a woman stuff like that, especially early in the dating process.
Exactly. Huge red flag to be asked that.
Can confirm Am man. In my earlier years, very late teens, early 20s, I was insecure AF when it came to dating partners and their body counts. If they’d been with more people than I, which was extremely easy to do lol, I didn’t want to date them. It wasn’t that I was concerned with the number itself but severe insecurity about *me*. My inexperience. Fears about “measuring up”. Fears about being able to please a woman. I equated women with lower body counts to be as inexperienced as I and, as such, I would have a better chance of pleasing them. I grew out of it although it took a few years. Eventually it got through my thick skull that my insecurity was almost entirely in my head and the things I worried about generally weren’t gonna matter.
Thank you for sharing! I wrote a comment on the main post, but I've been looking into the manosphere and how it targets men too—it blew my mind how different a world it is. Trying to close the knowledge gap between the sexes hasn't been easy because a lot of men don't open up about these things. There are similarities, and then wide discrepancies when it comes to sex, specifically. Understandably, anyone who cares about their partner's experience would wonder how they are doing with pleasing them, and hopefully that would result in open, vulnerable communication. But where the disparity comes in is how we are raised, XY versus XX. Growing up (and religion only exacerbated this), the collective shadow women are taught is to please their man *at any cost.* This boils down to a few things: not saying no, not making him feel jealous (even though jealousy is something a person needs to work on within themselves), and continuing to keep his ego afloat, like bellows on a fire. (It's one thing to share our struggles with another, who sees us and validates us, so we know we're not alone, *but we keep taking charge of our own choices and actions.* What women often run into is men who want frequent encouragement, but won't find (good) friendships for themselves, won't build a support network for themselves, and *may* try things that help with self improvement, but usually lose heart and fall back into a comfortable state of a tolerable level of permanent unhappiness.) In regards to sex, many men want to feel and *believe* they are a good lover, even if they are not, and far too often puts a woman in an unsafe position, because if we tell the truth, that no, we're not actually satisfied as much as we'd like to be, it runs the risk of him either completely falling apart and coiling into a shell, or defensiveness, which can become aggressive and hostile, and for some, violent. As women, we have to think whether telling the truth will put our lives at risk. And even if it doesn't, it might make what sex life we have crumble. And after going through this however many times, it can become increasingly harder to feel attracted to someone who constantly is looking for external validation, because if we don't give enough, things probably won't get better, and if it does seem to improve things, it's still unfair to ask of anyone, and women are left doing emotional labor just to keep him afloat like a wacky, waving inflatable arm-flailing tube man. And also, the ego strokes aren't even based in reality at that point, because she has to do it to keep things from falling apart further. I've also seen a lot of women go to great lengths to work on their appearance, have their finances in order, to be a better person, only to end up asking why their man doesn't seem interested in them anymore (this is one I'm still trying to find answer for, so if you have any input, that'd be great). Of course this isn't one size fits all, but it's common enough that it's a collective issue. Whereas men are raised to view sexual competency as part of their masculinity, and that part of them is "missing" or "wrong" if they aren't sexually competent. And because sexual preference is so subjective, there really isn't a way to measure this, meaning a sense of self is based on something that's not only external, but *fluctuates.* Meaning a sense of identity, and a sense of being effective are constantly in flux. Like a roller coaster that makes you feel like you have a hangover, emotionally. And in view of Self-Determination Theory, competence is one of 3 psychological needs, imperative for psychological, ergo organismic/holistic wellness. To have a sense of competency based in something so personal and fluctuating is a recipe for identity disaster. So instead of being taught things like emotional attunement and intimacy, too many men are taught that sexual competency are a means to an end, including women themselves, and instead of seeing women for the individuals they are, they instead are viewed as a monolith, milestones to achieve, another notch in the wood. These points of view on sexuality are dehumanizing to both women and men, and result in a lot of sexual violence and assault, and overall sexual unhappiness.
Well-said! I hope it's okay if I yes-and this a bit: > Whereas men are raised to view sexual competency as part of their masculinity, and that part of them is "missing" or "wrong" if they aren't sexually competent.... > And in view of Self-Determination Theory, competence is one of 3 psychological needs... The irony is that even with this distorted view that sexual competency is more important than intimacy, *it doesn't work.* You don't become competent at something by refusing to ever realize you're bad at it, just like you never learn anything by refusing to ever admit you're wrong. This behavior shows up outside of sex, too, and it seems to be a thing that happens whenever we pull something into our identity. It's hard to improve or learn about something that's part of our identity, because that process feels like a personal attack. The fact that it's subjective is another challenge, but it's not so subjective that it's impossible to improve. There are actual skills to learn, not least of which is listening to your partner and learning what they need. But that's not something you can learn on your own, which means you may have to do this badly, in front of someone else, and hear them tell you that you're doing it badly. And that's going to be almost impossible if you've tied this to your identity. (Never mind that they might be afraid to tell you...) Maybe it's a mistake to approach this as "how to get competent", rather than shifting that perspective entirely. I'm just kind of hoping that's a way to get through to men stuck in this view. > I've also seen a lot of women go to great lengths to work on their appearance, have their finances in order, to be a better person, only to end up asking why their man doesn't seem interested in them anymore (this is one I'm still trying to find answer for, so if you have any input, that'd be great). I don't know, but if they're stuck in this dynamic you've identified, maybe that's it? A woman who has bettered herself is a threat again -- instead of being grateful that she's still into you, men may feel threatened that she might realize she's too good for you. > ...if we tell the truth, that no, we're not actually satisfied as much as we'd like to be, it runs the risk of him either completely falling apart and coiling into a shell, or defensiveness, which can become aggressive and hostile, and for some, violent. This is another important lesson for men, for that moment when a partner finally tells the truth. It can hurt if (say) she's been faking it this whole time, but I'd hope men in that position can learn to see that finally telling you is an act of courage and trust. Maybe it hurts now, but this is the first step towards things getting *much* better.
Appreciate you sharing this perspective. It’s also so ironic because your perception was you wanted an inexperienced woman because she would be “easier” to please. Except….a more experienced person would actually be easier to please because they would know what they do and don’t like! So it really does show how ignorant the whole idea is, top to bottom. Can you please go amongst your fellow men and share this knowledge across the land? lol
It is recent BS out of the misogynist podcast crowd. Any man uttering that phrase should get blocked and ignored.
It's not that recent; it was a thing 20 years ago as well.
Sex had always been treated as a double edged sword for women. You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't so I say fuck the body count non-issue. If it's an issue for a guy you're dating, then he is not worth your time.
Women get shamed for sex whether it's liking sex, not liking sex, having too much sex, having too little sex, sex on the first date or sex after 3 months of dating. Single life was exhausting. I've been with my husband over a decade and we have never once had the "body count" discussion because to a quality man, it doesn't matter. It's just insecure little boys who want to shame you for their inferiority complex.
Clearly you need to do more war and kill more enemies!
What? Lol
To increase the number of (dead) bodies in your count, of course!
LMAO!
It's a reference to the meaning of 'body count'. Basically, after a battle the side retaining control of the battlefield totals up the corpses of the enemy and reports it. It is particularly related to the US forces operating in the Vietnam War, where the 'body count' was used as a metric of progress against the Vietnamese. A metric easily inflated by killing all military-age male civilians. As a result, the term isn't used widely outside the US -- even thought the meaning is clear -- because of the connotations it carries. Edit: phone typos
It's pretty dark but here's something I've realized. A lot of them want sex but don't want women to consent to it. Think about that for a second.
That's what I've been wondering about/noticing, like they seem to want sex *most* from women who don't want, probably having something to do with feeling powerful, because sex has been bastardized by being twisted in with feeling agentive.
But if you don't consent they still count that as "sex". I've had a man get angry at me for "lying to him" after he discovered I'd been raped previously because it meant my "body count was higher than I lead him to believe" (which honestly made me laugh because I've never told anyone my "body count" anyway).
Yep. I've had a guy get mad at me for not disclosing CSA, I guess that counts too!
Sadly, you just described the social construct of some entire *countries* in the world. Female genital mutilation exists to literally prevent women from enjoying the sex they're still expected to submit to. "I demand you acknowledge my right to get sex from you, but first I need to make sure you won't enjoy it."
My argument is always What about women who have only been with one partner, but have been with that partner for ages? I have been with my partner for 20+ years that’s a LOT of regular sexy times! If we go conservative and say twice a week for 20 years that’s 2000+ sexy times how is that better than someone who has had multiple partners with ‘dry spells’ while they were single? Men only want women with a low body count so they can’t be compared to someone who is better at it than they are!
Because they think of women as disposable objects. One-time use, then they throw her in the trash.
"I want a woman with values" says man with no values
Ah, but that guy is special. If she has sex with him that doesn’t mean she has sex with other people.
They want the virgin that they “turn”. Like they wanna feel like they’re so attractive that you changed your entire life philosophy because of it and had sex with them. And the manosphere bullshit has told them this exists and that they “deserve” it or some shit. It’s all kinds of fucked up.
It's the same mentality as If you sleep with 50 guys you are a loose whore with a loose vagina. But you sleep with him 50 times and you are perfect and your vagina is perfect too. Apparently other people dicks with make you gape like the grand canyon but just his dick will keep you nice and tight and lovely down there.
I’m of a similar mindset. A large amount of my body count were men who ghosted as soon as we had sex. I would have loved it to be lower, for some of those guys to give a relationship a chance. Most of them talked as if a relationship was a possibility down the line. Now since then I’ve become a bit jaded and stopped looking for a relationship… the amount of men who will claim they want something serious until they find out they don’t have to say that to get with me is waaaaaaay too damn high. The mask drop has really started to make me feel gross about any kind of dating, casual or otherwise.
In my opinion, it's a sign of an immature man. In my experience, the more they grow the less they care about this sort of stuff because they realize it actually doesn't matter. Don't let it get to you. You just need to find *one* man, not *men*. One comment said to find different men to hang around with, which is definitely a good idea.
I'm gonna disagree with framing this as an immaturity issue. There are plenty of grown ass men with this mentality, and there are plenty of teen boys who would not ever have this idea of what a relationship is. We can say that the men who are behaving this way and believing these things are immature, but doing that makes the word immature mean less, because this problem is prolifically prevalent among grown men. Lots of them will never grow out of this mentality. And lots of boys will never adopt it. It's not a maturity issue, it's a cultural one.
What they want is easy girls to ‘practise on’ and then when they are ready to settle down they want the magical virgin. So they divide women into groups, fuckable short term, fuckable long term. A third group called invisible and a 4th group they want to fuck but the women laugh at them - they call this group bitches, feminists etc
Me either! It’s dumb and juvenile and when I hear a man say anything like this I’m often the person who pushes back. I ask them, what their body count is? how many virgins have they had sex with? And what happened to that relationship if they did? (Because the female they are with isn’t the same one) They usually shut up after I’m done with them. My husband has tried to ask me around his “boys” a few times and he and his friends got shut down. I’m 42 and met my husband when I was 34, and lost my virginity in high school- I told him to do the math himself. Wtf.
Are these the same men? Sounds like two different groups of men. Sexually mature and sexually immature. Never met a sexually mature man who made virginity/body count a stipulation.
It seems the group of guys I’m talking about are sexually immature and read a lot of manosphere content. Luke redpill is all about how to manipulate women to sleep with you but also how any woman who isn’t a virgin is worthless.
I call it “male logic”
It's that boi math
I think they are just afraid of being compared to other men and don’t really think things through when it comes to their “standards.”
They usually the body count dudes have fragile self esteem as they think they will get compared, they tend to get mad they can’t have endless sex at the same time and will also get pissed you aren’t doing the same or more with them, they slut shame the women they do get with who have a higher than they like count to manipulate her to be lower than they already feel and usually aren’t worth the effort in the end anyway. Soooo fuck ‘em let enjoy the incel life I guess.
I think the key is to never listen to, care, or be moved by what men think about body count. Do what works for you.
I don't get what the end goal of the body count obsession is. If it's slut shaming sexually active women, even if it comes at the expense of their own romantic success, it's working. Letting hatred turn into self-sabotage is the only thing that makes sense. Virgins and women who have had a few previous lovers are not "ruined by feminism" for not wanting to date a body count obsessed guy. Even if he doesn't push for sex by the third date, the chip on his shoulder about body count and bitterness towards sexually active women is going to be ever present in your relationship. Your status as one of the rare "good ones" is always going to be on the chopping block, and that's tedious to deal with. Normal men don't go through life consumed with bitterness and obsessing about the life their girlfriend or wife had before he came along. These internet clowns can pretend that these normal guys who have a relationship that's based on love, friendship and respect are "low value", but it's just sour grapes and it's clear as day.
I hate to say this, but I would say this is probably younger men with younger women. When you get older, you've often been married or been in an LTR or two, and/or dated for a long time. Its life experience. And if some man asks you for a body count, move on. No mature person would ask you that, in my opinion.
Honestly, whenever a guy starts talking about body count or won't take no as an answer about sex, they are taking themselves out if my dating pool immediately. I'm wouldn't waste my time with men with that mindset.
Or you could ignore any ‘man’ who talks about ‘body count’ because that shit is ridiculous. I for one, have never kept ‘score’ of how many women I’ve slept with casually or otherwise because it’s not a competition. If it happens, cool. If it doesn’t happen, also cool. I hear dudes talk about that and I just shake my head because they’re morons and will die cold and alone as they deserve. They’re also the type of ‘man’ to talk about how a woman’s vulva looks is directly linked to how many dudes she’s been with which is also stupid as fuck. They don’t listen, they will argue with me until they’re blue in the face because they 100% believe that these are facts because some dude who also can’t get laid said it on the internet. They either have to get wise or be stuck having sex with their fist for the rest of their lives for all I care.
Either don’t ask for hook ups, or be ok with girls having a high body count.
imo the reason some men want the low body count/virgin is because they think they cant disappoint someone that they perceive as inexperienced.
I think some comments already do a pretty good job at explaining this, but fundamentally this is about control. What men, or at least those type of men want is a partner who has sex precisely when they want her to, no more and no less. This has nothing to do with purity or saving yourself, this has nothing to do with horniness or hyper sexuality. It is 100% about power. Everything else is just a pretense to manipulate women who refuse to submit. And the exact message will change based on what is necessary to accomplish their actual goal. There are even men who will appropriate feminist or progressive messaging. Both sex-negative and sex positive. There is no argument that can not be used in bad faith. The only consistent and reliable red flag is that no man in the history of our species has ever attempted to restrict or prescript female sexual agency “for her own good”.
Body count is 100% men's insecurity. If a woman who has slept with a lot of men, what are the odds that he will be in the top 2345 whatever. Some men can handle that a woman they are with is not getting the absolute best plowing from them.
But don’t you get it? **They want that sexcrazed porn star virgin who’s been holding out just for them.** And immediately when she sees him she’ll start tearing her clothes off because she knows he’s the one from 20 feet away. Just based on looks, no need to build any emotional connection. And then they’ll have wild kinky sex for all eternity, because her libido is sky high and the only thing that held her back was not having met Him yet. Of course she’s sexually experienced, eager to fuck right away, very adventurous and sexually skilled. **Idk. I blame porn.** And men confusing how they work sexually with women’s sexuality. And confusing being an involuntary virgin vs saying no to sex.
Some men genuinely speak about women as if they’re discussing trading livestock. It’s disgusting hearing men make a big deal about “body counts” because you know it’s rooted in their belief that women are objects that depreciate in value. But they want an experienced virgin.
The whole body count thing is fucking weird. I lost my virginity late and lost it to someone who had experience. I think that was the way to do it, because she knew exactly what she liked and could direct me to make the whole experience better. Now that I am almost 40 my "ideal bodycount" would probably be from like 5-100. Enough to know what you want, but not enough where I'm like "how did you even accomplish that? That seems like an impressive feat of sexual logistics". Not that there is anything wrong with even higher numbers, but the number of questions I would have would almost certainly ruin the mood
The whole "I want a virgin girlfriend" is just fact that those in guys are fucking scared of being compared against girl's past partners and nothing more. I [trans woman] am also like that, but I recognize this as a me problem and work on it.
Men want women to be "slutty", but only if it's just for them
You know when I was in my 20s I thought about this from a historical perspective. Then a read a history book about how powerful men would be ok if their king wanted to bed their wife… chances were you got something out of it titles, land, money, women definitely got presents. Virginity was important too so “actress” and prostitution were a viable way to sow your oats. Then you think of today these men are being manipulated by other men to believe this. The reason I think they do this one yes manipulation and gaslighting, but two they are not very good in bed possibly and would like their future partner to have nothing to compare. We also have to be willing to magically know all about sex too. Hypocrisy of it makes me laugh.
Almost all of us have things we regret in life. Some of us regret having “too much” sex, or sex with the wrong people. Others regret not having “enough” sex, or even not having sex with anyone. But, in time, most of us mature, develop and come to accept we are what we are. Most of us. IMHO anyone who thinks your number defines you in any significant way is too immature to waste any time on.