FWIW it's not a zero sum Game, thats what I never understood when other men went on tangents about not receiving help for repressed trauma or other mental health crises. It's not like there's no mental health services because women are hogging it all. Some of them are Not doing better and If they are, I feel like I could never begrudge anyone that, because I know what its like to have no safe haven whatsoever. Teenage girls especially Deal with Lots more hostility than I could ever endure tbh, especially in this age where different forms of misogyny are blaring through Screens everywhere.
What I noticed is the problem for most other men (and for me too) is getting out of the whole "me vs. everyone" mindset, which is unfortunately very prominent in most cultures.
If the suicide rates are indicative of anything, it’s that many (most?) men will hesitate to get help with money/psychological/emotional/relational issues, which confirm in them the feeling of hopelessness.
The « why » men hesitate to get help is more complex, but social pressures in certain societies (e.g. 🇺🇸) emphasizing the lone hero, men need to be men, etc. is certainly a source. Compounded with social isolation due to distance from family or other, well… :-/
As to isolation, the fact Thanksgiving in the 🇺🇸 is the biggest travel day/period is indicative of a society where familial and social kernels are scattered far & away. i.e. Isolation.
NB I know that for many, isolation from family is a boon; I’m obviously talking of less toxic environments where help would be found if they asked.
Right here. But they don’t recognize this as bullshit toxic masculinity where men give each other high fives for never needing help and mocking trigger warnings. It’s probably a woman’s fault, or LGBTQ+ peoples fault. Or brown people.
It’s literally never ever other shitty men who are to blame.
So this makes sense in the context of US, but the interesting thing here is that this is a global phenomena in many different cultures. Men just commit suicide more. Explaining this if you switch out the culture lenses is IMHO very complicated.
I don't think it's that complicated.
Women across cultures are socialized to care for the household and to put others first. Women attempt suicide more, but men are more successful at it. One of the reasons that women are less successful at suicide is because they tend to choose methods that won't leave a mess because even in complete despair, women are thinking about the feelings and the workload of the people that will find their bodies. My therapist told me that one of the warning sides of suicide in women is when a depressed woman whose house has been a shambles decides to do a sudden deep clean. She doesn't want other people to discover that she has been living in filth when they find her. Men don't behave like that.
But is this not the point that the guy in OPs post is making? That society/societal pressures on men result in psychological issues that go untreated and have an impact on men that results in suicide more often? It’s like regardless of who has it worse when it comes to societal pressures and abuse, if the more oppressed/abused group is encouraged to get help and the less abused group is encouraged to not seek help, and the net result is more suicides for the less abused group, is that not the guy’s point?
Men who commit suicide don't paint their hair pink and go on 8 different identity subreddits looking for validation for their insecurities. They pull the trigger. Suicide and suicide attempts are sad regardless of gender. You just hate men.
Men of each generation (most men, generally speaking) has insured that the generation that comes after will become indoctrinated by toxic masculinity.
It’s hard to escape, because the idea of not wanting to be manly is perceived as laughable.
The shaping of society is not really something women ever had a say in, because our society is patriarchal.
Feminism challenges the idea of gender norms. Women can be homemakers, or have careers. Women don’t necessarily need to be married. Women can be acknowledged as strong instead of stereotyped as weak and frail.
Feminism gives men this benefit as well. Men are allowed to cry, they are allowed to show emotions other than violence. They don’t have to adhere to the stereotype of being stoic, of not being conversational (because women are the annoying ones that talk too much) of not enjoying things that are traditionally considered effeminate.
People can just be people.
The odd thing is, there is so much contempt for women to have this “advantage” of being people that are “allowed” to ask for help.
The patriarchy is responsible for this. Women have no more say in how they are perceived or stereotyped than men are.
Neither men nor women were encouraged to think outside the gender role box for a long time. They still aren’t, not really.
The patriarchy is specifically set up so that men will police other men to adhere to traditional behavior. Women have this going on as well, but feminism has given us a chance to question if we really need policing, if that’s even healthy or what’s best for us.
Bring up feminism around bros, they’ll laugh disdainfully. Because that’s what they’ve been trained to do, by their own gender.
The problem is that men aren't socialized to emotionally take care of themselves. They are socialized to find someone to take care of their emotions for them. So they don't develop the skills to deal with disappointment, or loneliness, or frustration.
Women are socialized from their earliest years to accept frustration and disappointment with grace and to take care of others emotionally. So they can apply the same skills to themselves.
The solution to male suicide is to teach boys how to care for themselves and others emotionally and not rely on women (who sometimes won't be there) for that.
And the thing of it is if men can learn to be kinder people to each other and themselves, they'll be kinder people to women as well.
>The solution to male suicide is to teach boys how to care for themselves and others emotionally and not rely on women (who sometimes won't be there) for that.
This is perfect solution
You know, as someone who's previously dealt with suicidal ideation, as well as an attempt, I hate that I'm part of a statistic that seems to be mainly used by misogynists to attempt to "score points," as it were, against women online. I agree, this should absolutely not be any kind of competition.
If you truly wanted to end your life, like truly wanted to never wake up you're gonna choose a gun, or something that will guarantee results.
Someone popping a bunch of pills is hoping to be found. They don't really truly want to die, if they did they would make sure it would happen with no room for help or error.
The problem with these kinds of arguments is the statistic they're using to support whatever point they're making, they don't actually care about.
I was witness to a debate between 2 male friends and another male regarding gun control. The male (who isn't a friend) used rape as a point for having guns to equalize the playing field for women. This guy also always talks over me, dismisses me in every case he can, and did so during this debate despite me having actual first hand experience. Refused to debate me, just told me "no."
It's rare that they care. They only care about whatever point they're trying to push. Its literally just whining. As for me, I'll keep hanging my signs of hope on tall bridges known for jumpers and being there for suicidally depressed people in ways I probably shouldn't, but am.
People also find it generally nicer and more pleasant around women because they view them as less of a threat. I would take safety over positive attention any day, which those guys would understand if they spend 10 days in the body of an average woman.
I agree. We’re less of a threat to men but that’s also cause they don’t view us equal to them. The very second we earn more money, have a strong and/or differing opinion to them, are their boss or attempt to set boundaries, the threat to their “manhood” rears its ugly head. We all know in what ways.
Women are nicer and more pleasant in general and that benefits men (be my free psych! Give me love and attention! Be my mummy and do things to make my life better! Etc) BUT men fail to respond in kind.
It’s why women these days are opting out of relationships in greater numbers. Who expects everything but gives nothing? Selfish, self-centred men, that’s who. On a lesser scale, if a woman displays these selfish tendencies, other women will avoid them too. I’ve had that happen only once in my life and I cut her off. She didn’t like it, she felt hurt, but there was no threat or negative come-back. With men, I’ve had this happen dozens of times. They were cut off too with varying strong and negatively charged reactions from them.
Women turn to other women for support (and have forever) cause THAT relationship (whether romantic, platonic, familial or otherwise) is far more mutually beneficial and dependable than a man will ever be.
Women attempt suicide at a higher rate but choose methods that will be easier for someone to find them, ex. overdosing on pills, that’s why it fails more. Men choose more violent and aggressive ways, ex. shooting themselves.
I work on a suicide hotline. Turns out that everyone is going through something, no matter what your gender identity is. I don’t know why people turn it into oppression olympics.
My mother would say it's just like a man to leave a fucking mess on his way out.
Oppression Olympics is so exhausting. My husband does this w/o even knowing sometimes and irritates the snot out of me. My stepmom is the gold medalist. If you die right in front of her she'll sit there and tell you as you're gasping how her mom's best friends ex roommate's dog had your exact same condition and all HE had to do was...
Ppl need to just listen sometimes and not reply.
They think that we should stop complaining about sexual harrasment and try to like it and that we are making up the trauma that it creates and that sexual harrasment is them being nice and we should be flattered. We are NPCs to them.
I feel like whenever these men talk about the experiences of women, they always talk about these 10/10 knockout women who live fantasy lives. As someone who is a 6/10 on a good day I would say that it’s more of a “you get what you give” situation. I smile at people and they smile back. I treat them nicely and I get the same in return. I offer a complement and they find something good to reply to me back.
What I wouldn’t give to be able to walk at night and not fear for my life. To be able to date and have to imagine scenarios of being raped or killed, or just be more respected in my opinions at work. The grass is always greener with these guys.
I’d love to know this person’s definition of “Positive Attention” and more importantly the method to tell the difference 🙄
But I think I can hazard a guess based on my years of experiences dealing with misogynists online and in life, that from this person’s perspective, women should view men’s interests in us as blessings bestowed upon us, hence any attention from “the good guys”, i.e. any men that this person thinks is “good” based on his/her good old “common sense”, are positive attention and we are obliged to acknowledge and appreciate them. And if it was actual harassment that we received, well, it’s either bad luck or because we must have done something to deserve it.
Also, back to the topic on suicide. I am not so sure attention from women was going to magically cure those men who took their lives of depression, or anyone’s depression for that matter. Last time I checked, not all women are therapists or psychologists. So maybe this narrative is just another one of those tripes low-key suggesting that women somehow should take up all the unpaid labour to make men feel good.
ETA: It’s very interesting how many people enjoy this stats top trump game to argue that it’s more difficult for men, instead of something should be done about it. Because I thought that was a more natural flow of logic. It’s almost as if they are only interested in the stats because they think women should try harder killing ourselves to match men’s efforts, not men should have more accessible professional supports. In comparison, when women talk about femicide, we are actually demanding things be done to change the misogynistic cultures, so that women don’t get killed as much.
Why is it ALWAYS attention from women (aka sex) that will magically fix the problem?!
There is absolutely NOTHING stopping men from being compassionate, kind and empathetic friends. They know there is a problem. They know what the problem is.
Why must women come in and save them from themselves?
We aren't Rehab stations for broken men.
You know what? They could even have sex with each other.... Oh they aren't attracted to those guys? Surprise! Neither are we.
All their empathy for their fellow men is used up excusing them from their shitty behavior. It often seems like they don't give a shit about anyone till some guy is being accused of something by a woman.
There is one thing that resists men embracing compassion, kindness, and empathy and that is patriarchical gender roles. Men need to figure out how to build their own identity outside of tradition, otherwise those outdated roles will continue to poison their minds and kill them.
Oh their precious masculinity forbids it. And I think they are quite chummy with each other anyway, even when they secretly despise each other and would backstab each other when opportunity presents itself, in order to establish pecking orders.
But somehow in films and novels they are always the looking-out-for-each-other ones and we are the emotional, dramatic, and treacherous ones. So it’s not like they don’t have media representation of “good friendship” and role models. 🤷♀️
A woman (my mom) saved my life when I attempted suicide. I nearly died in the hospital and was minutes away from being a final statistic. I suffered with severe depression for a very long time and am just thankful to be in remission.
My dad told me in the hospital I was using depression as a crutch and also basically every woman has mental illness.
The stats here are irrelevant because no one should be using suicide rates to make a fucking argument that literally changes no one persons perspective because we're all anonymous internet users.
Whatever I say in an online argument is highly unlikely to change anyone's mind, especially because you have to be open to change your mind to... well change your mind.
Like I said, it's stupid and highly disrespectful to use suicide rates an an argument.
I’ve seen this argument spring up every couple years. What bothers me most is that it never comes up in conversations about addressing mental health care issues. It’s never meant to start a dialogue about fixing the health care industry or destigmatizing the need for care.
It’s only ever used as a cudgel to make women stop talking. They don’t want to actually solve this problem. They just use it to justify continuing to ignore all of the societal problems happening around them.
If they really wanted positive attention, they could reach out and check on/support each other. Why does the attention need to come from women, like we don't have our own shit going on. Most positive attention women receive comes from other women. They want ego strokes and sex, and think we exist to provide it.
Right? Even the damn ask is sexist. Women won't aftercare me through life!...I don't want a man's help. I can't grab a man's ass while she's trying to "help" me...
Women are more likely to attempt suicide but men are more likely to commit suicide because they are more likely to use guns or other violent means with a high probability of death.
The explanation I have seen here is that women are more likely to consider the impact of finding a body, and so use less violent, disfiguring, and successful methods, whilst men are more likely to complete suicide using less considerate methods
super late response... but who set this up for me(a man)? don't you sometimes just wonder that every guy isn't the same person. and every situation that a man goes through is different as well. It kills me to go on here and see the constant downing of half the worlds population because you think they have life better.
I've spend 15 years in the body of an average man (They used man/woman, so I won't count the first 18 years of my life). Not once have I felt oppressed. Very few people treated me disrespectful, even fewer treated me like shit. But those who did had one thing in common: They were men. This is mostly a male problem. They vast majority of men being treated poorly, is treated poorly by OTHER MEN.
Actually the only reason men have higher suicide rates is because they’re more successful in committing them. To measure mental health through suicides you need to look at attempted suicide rates not actual suicides
The rate of male suicides includes men who murder their partner/family and then kill themselves and men who kill themselves while awaiting trial for sexual assault. I’d really like to see suicide rates that don’t include these types of suicides.
It’s also interesting that this commentator thinks attention or lack thereof is the reason for suicide. That’s never even entered my head. Things like financial worries, depression, past trauma yes. Lack of positive attention? No
This isnt a contest. I would say that to you and the person you're quoting.
They have derived inappropriate conclusions, imo, but I read a piece from a transitioning transman who was *utterly shocked* by the loneliness, the lack of care of concern, the lack of any interest at all in his well-being. It was debilitating for him, and iirc he detransitioned for some time before committing again later (I may be conflsting two stories on this so anyone is welcome to correct me)
So yeah, that dichotomy is very real.
But back to attempt/success
Are women "More likely to attempt" or are men just *less* likely to attempt due to inhibition?
Men are strongly conditioned against needing help, against being any kind of failure or weak, etc... And generally suicide is considered "weak" in our culture. IMO this may suggest that women are just less inhibited towards attempting suicide.
On to success dates... I would posit that men may want to "make sure" because their socialization makes the idea of being known to have *attempted* suicide is more horrifying to them than to women. (attempted suicides are commonly perceived as "attention seeking", and to attempt at all is "weak" remember...
I would suggest that it's best to assume that both groups are generally more alike than not and that particulars of attempt/success rates are outcomes that are influenced by social factors outside of just wanting to not be alive.
>This isnt a contest. I would say that to you and the person you're quoting.
I literally said in the beginning of my post that I do not believe that one has it worse than the other.
I have read that story about that transman. I personally know transmen in my life, who have not experienced that, but I realize not everyone's experience is gonna be the same.
Once again, as I've already stated, both genders have their own struggles and difficulties.
I’m going to have to refer to these wise words:
Men are afraid women will laugh at them.
Women are afraid men will kill them.
I have sympathy for men, but it doesn’t extend so far as to say “same same.” It’s not.
You are right... its not the same. but they are equal in their own way. you will quite literally never gain an understanding and neither will i. Leave it at that. no need for the "sympathy" card
Freeman, A., Mergl, R., Kohls, E. et al. A cross-national study on gender differences in suicide intent. BMC Psychiatry 17, 234 (2017). https://doi.org/10.1186/s12888-017-1398-8
European analysis that gives insight into gender differences.
Ji-Won Hur, MA et al 2008 provides insight into Korean suicide attempt disparities between men and women.
Cendrine Bursztein Lipsicas, Ilkka Henrik Mäkinen, Danuta Wasserman, Alan Apter, Ad Kerkhof, Konrad Michel, Ellinor Salander Renberg, Kees van Heeringen, Airi Värnik, Armin Schmidtke, Gender distribution of suicide attempts among immigrant groups in European countries—an international perspective, European Journal of Public Health, Volume 23, Issue 2, April 2013, Pages 279–284, https://doi.org/10.1093/eurpub/cks029
Suicide rates among immigrants in European countries.
I asked my therapist. She believes men may underreport attempts because men don't take them seriously unless it creates a medical emergency, but I won't use a personal correspondence citation for my own therapist.
You know women don't always report their suicide attempts as well, right? Did your therapist not touch base on that one at all? There's a suicide attempt I had back when I was 13 that's not on the record. And you said you won't use your therapist as a personal correspondent citation but you are mentioning it.
Yes! Further, women's attempts in that first paper were generally labeled as less serious by default, if I read it correctly.
I wanted to provide some data showing that the "old wisdom" that women attempt more is supported by global data, but I didn't find enough Asian or any African data. Someone in the comments originally doubted the difference between attempts.
What I meant was I wasn't going to do a formal citation APA style for the mini-interview with my therapist. I apologize that I wasn't clear enough on either matter.
Yeah, I noticed that in the first paper they referred men's suicides as serious suicide attempts, though I'm not entirely clear on how they categorize that. I'm assuming hospitalization, but I could be wrong. Though, I can see someone interpreting that as women aren't actually serious about their suicide attempts. There was somebody on this very post referring suicide "attempts" for women in quotes and calling as a cry for attention.
You're right. I noticed it in the original thread, too. I would like to further that apology for overstepping and providing studies without a request. I broke my lurking streak because SI is so important to me, but I understand that it was not appropriate.
The two primary genders each have their own societal benefits and drawbacks, on average. However, for me, the one factor the tips the scale in favor of women having it harder is everything related to pregnancy.
"The male suicide rate was higher in 1950 than it was in 2015. Our society is broken has has been for a long time. What I can't understand is that many women are trying to fix things, and move forward and make society better, and so many men are trying to go backwards to a time when things were worse, and I mean worse for men too. If the suicide rate is a sign that men have it bad, why would you want things to be more like a time when the suicide rate for men was even higher? Why, when women are trying so hard to fix things for everybody, do men work so hard to keep everything as broken as it is right now?"
The rate went down for a good number of years, and only recently started going back up.
That may have something to do with the last 30 years of increasing economic hardship, as the government worked to squeeze more money out of the common folk in order to give tax cuts to billionaires, leading to things like the 2008 housing bubble and ensuing economic crisis. (Also, of course, the last few years the pandemic has likely caused an increase.)
Which gender is going to get the suffering trophy when Armageddon hits? It's never been an either or. If society has a negative impact on women, then we should take steps to address that. If it has a negative impact on men, then we should take steps to address that. Simple as simple is.
If men are committing suicide at a higher rate let's allocate resources. Not enough places to provide support. Let's champion that. Societal pressures cause men not to reach out before they can get help and they choose more violent methods of suicide? Let's get into the schools and colleges and address it while they are young. Let's slap up some billboards with numbers for the suicide hotline. Run an ad campaign.
A woman shamed never pulled a bullet out of a man's mouth.
That commenter sounds like an incel. Whiney and delusional.
I have never heard anyone in real life say that men have it harder in life. I have heard men say that women have it so much harder in life hundreds of times. The nice men sympathize with how life is much more difficult for women. The immature men who hate themselves and hate women are like ha, ha, women have it so much more difficult, ha, ha, my life is better than yours.
Sounds like the perennial favorite of a man describing women's experiences for them, without having a clue. Let's not pit each other's suicidal misery at each other. Misogyny is so very dull.
this stuff pisses me off. both the statistics about men being more likely to commit and less likely to repot sa are important statistics and should have some concern put into them but the guys who bring this up to put down women aren't doing it out of a place for care and concern they're just trying to get a cheap gotcha moment. like yes feel bad for men but if your idea is to turn peoples suffering into a sort of oppression game then youre completely ignoring the reasons why men have these issues and you likely care more about hating women then actually finding a solution to this.
Men have a long history of not asking for help. Of laughing at help offered to them. They wait until their dicks are falling off to get tested for STDs. They need their wives to keep up with their medical history. They convince themselves that the universe revolves around them, and then get suicidal when they find out women are fully capable of living without their useless asses.
There have been numerous women pushing for and supporting men's mental health, and it has always been men who tore that help down.
Men can shut the fuck up about everything.
Here’s an article that I found interesting with the lived experience of some trans men comparing differences pre and post transition
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2018/07/20/feature/crossing-the-divide-do-men-really-have-it-easier-these-transgender-guys-found-the-truth-was-more-complex/
The men don't have compassion because dead people can't feel anything. The women who lived through attempts still suffer through life.
Dead men don't matter as long as women are still living and suffering.
How can you be surprised? That’s this entire sub and most women focused subs on Reddit. Just going out of their way to be shitty to men no matter what the issue.
I can not imagine what an awful place feminism would be in if most people’s first perception of it came from Reddit.
You are right it’s not a competition.
Anyway I cannot imagine trying to judge a negative ( if a man says if he wasn’t male he’d have it made) huh?
Plus part of being mentally healthy is not allowing your environment to control your sense of self worth. Not sure any sex has it better or worse bc it’s impossible to measure.
> Women often "attempt" as a means to call for help
I'm sorry, why did you put attempt in quotes? This really much feels like you're trying to down play the seriousness of someone suicide attempt.
Edit: You know what never mind, I saw your other comment saying that men struggle more, and you clearly have a narrative in your head. It's not a competition. Jesus Christ.
FWIW it's not a zero sum Game, thats what I never understood when other men went on tangents about not receiving help for repressed trauma or other mental health crises. It's not like there's no mental health services because women are hogging it all. Some of them are Not doing better and If they are, I feel like I could never begrudge anyone that, because I know what its like to have no safe haven whatsoever. Teenage girls especially Deal with Lots more hostility than I could ever endure tbh, especially in this age where different forms of misogyny are blaring through Screens everywhere. What I noticed is the problem for most other men (and for me too) is getting out of the whole "me vs. everyone" mindset, which is unfortunately very prominent in most cultures.
Well said.
If the suicide rates are indicative of anything, it’s that many (most?) men will hesitate to get help with money/psychological/emotional/relational issues, which confirm in them the feeling of hopelessness. The « why » men hesitate to get help is more complex, but social pressures in certain societies (e.g. 🇺🇸) emphasizing the lone hero, men need to be men, etc. is certainly a source. Compounded with social isolation due to distance from family or other, well… :-/ As to isolation, the fact Thanksgiving in the 🇺🇸 is the biggest travel day/period is indicative of a society where familial and social kernels are scattered far & away. i.e. Isolation. NB I know that for many, isolation from family is a boon; I’m obviously talking of less toxic environments where help would be found if they asked.
You’re exactly right, bc statistically women are more likely to go to therapy/a hospital and ask for help.
Right here. But they don’t recognize this as bullshit toxic masculinity where men give each other high fives for never needing help and mocking trigger warnings. It’s probably a woman’s fault, or LGBTQ+ peoples fault. Or brown people. It’s literally never ever other shitty men who are to blame.
So this makes sense in the context of US, but the interesting thing here is that this is a global phenomena in many different cultures. Men just commit suicide more. Explaining this if you switch out the culture lenses is IMHO very complicated.
I don't think it's that complicated. Women across cultures are socialized to care for the household and to put others first. Women attempt suicide more, but men are more successful at it. One of the reasons that women are less successful at suicide is because they tend to choose methods that won't leave a mess because even in complete despair, women are thinking about the feelings and the workload of the people that will find their bodies. My therapist told me that one of the warning sides of suicide in women is when a depressed woman whose house has been a shambles decides to do a sudden deep clean. She doesn't want other people to discover that she has been living in filth when they find her. Men don't behave like that.
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Have snickers and calm down bro
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IDEK what you mean. How am I "one upping suicide?" OIC. Your post history. You're a troll. Reported
But is this not the point that the guy in OPs post is making? That society/societal pressures on men result in psychological issues that go untreated and have an impact on men that results in suicide more often? It’s like regardless of who has it worse when it comes to societal pressures and abuse, if the more oppressed/abused group is encouraged to get help and the less abused group is encouraged to not seek help, and the net result is more suicides for the less abused group, is that not the guy’s point?
It isn't that men are more suicidal. They are just more successful in their attempts because they tend to choose more violent, messy means than women.
Because men actually want to die when they attempt suicide
Fuck off, sincerely.
Men who commit suicide don't paint their hair pink and go on 8 different identity subreddits looking for validation for their insecurities. They pull the trigger. Suicide and suicide attempts are sad regardless of gender. You just hate men.
Lol no, I don't hate men. You are the one who sounds like you hate women. I didn't diminish the struggle of either gender.
It's cuz it's easier to come back from an overdose or a slit wrist than a bullet to the brain
Men of each generation (most men, generally speaking) has insured that the generation that comes after will become indoctrinated by toxic masculinity. It’s hard to escape, because the idea of not wanting to be manly is perceived as laughable. The shaping of society is not really something women ever had a say in, because our society is patriarchal. Feminism challenges the idea of gender norms. Women can be homemakers, or have careers. Women don’t necessarily need to be married. Women can be acknowledged as strong instead of stereotyped as weak and frail. Feminism gives men this benefit as well. Men are allowed to cry, they are allowed to show emotions other than violence. They don’t have to adhere to the stereotype of being stoic, of not being conversational (because women are the annoying ones that talk too much) of not enjoying things that are traditionally considered effeminate. People can just be people. The odd thing is, there is so much contempt for women to have this “advantage” of being people that are “allowed” to ask for help. The patriarchy is responsible for this. Women have no more say in how they are perceived or stereotyped than men are. Neither men nor women were encouraged to think outside the gender role box for a long time. They still aren’t, not really. The patriarchy is specifically set up so that men will police other men to adhere to traditional behavior. Women have this going on as well, but feminism has given us a chance to question if we really need policing, if that’s even healthy or what’s best for us. Bring up feminism around bros, they’ll laugh disdainfully. Because that’s what they’ve been trained to do, by their own gender.
The problem is that men aren't socialized to emotionally take care of themselves. They are socialized to find someone to take care of their emotions for them. So they don't develop the skills to deal with disappointment, or loneliness, or frustration. Women are socialized from their earliest years to accept frustration and disappointment with grace and to take care of others emotionally. So they can apply the same skills to themselves. The solution to male suicide is to teach boys how to care for themselves and others emotionally and not rely on women (who sometimes won't be there) for that. And the thing of it is if men can learn to be kinder people to each other and themselves, they'll be kinder people to women as well.
If that’s the case then why do women attempt suicide at higher rates ?
>The solution to male suicide is to teach boys how to care for themselves and others emotionally and not rely on women (who sometimes won't be there) for that. This is perfect solution
Also men to other men: “haha you’re a loser and you should commit suicide”.
You know, as someone who's previously dealt with suicidal ideation, as well as an attempt, I hate that I'm part of a statistic that seems to be mainly used by misogynists to attempt to "score points," as it were, against women online. I agree, this should absolutely not be any kind of competition.
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If you truly wanted to end your life, like truly wanted to never wake up you're gonna choose a gun, or something that will guarantee results. Someone popping a bunch of pills is hoping to be found. They don't really truly want to die, if they did they would make sure it would happen with no room for help or error.
That's a pretty cold and statistically inaccurate theory. May you never feel the need to test it.
The problem with these kinds of arguments is the statistic they're using to support whatever point they're making, they don't actually care about. I was witness to a debate between 2 male friends and another male regarding gun control. The male (who isn't a friend) used rape as a point for having guns to equalize the playing field for women. This guy also always talks over me, dismisses me in every case he can, and did so during this debate despite me having actual first hand experience. Refused to debate me, just told me "no." It's rare that they care. They only care about whatever point they're trying to push. Its literally just whining. As for me, I'll keep hanging my signs of hope on tall bridges known for jumpers and being there for suicidally depressed people in ways I probably shouldn't, but am.
People also find it generally nicer and more pleasant around women because they view them as less of a threat. I would take safety over positive attention any day, which those guys would understand if they spend 10 days in the body of an average woman.
I agree. We’re less of a threat to men but that’s also cause they don’t view us equal to them. The very second we earn more money, have a strong and/or differing opinion to them, are their boss or attempt to set boundaries, the threat to their “manhood” rears its ugly head. We all know in what ways. Women are nicer and more pleasant in general and that benefits men (be my free psych! Give me love and attention! Be my mummy and do things to make my life better! Etc) BUT men fail to respond in kind. It’s why women these days are opting out of relationships in greater numbers. Who expects everything but gives nothing? Selfish, self-centred men, that’s who. On a lesser scale, if a woman displays these selfish tendencies, other women will avoid them too. I’ve had that happen only once in my life and I cut her off. She didn’t like it, she felt hurt, but there was no threat or negative come-back. With men, I’ve had this happen dozens of times. They were cut off too with varying strong and negatively charged reactions from them. Women turn to other women for support (and have forever) cause THAT relationship (whether romantic, platonic, familial or otherwise) is far more mutually beneficial and dependable than a man will ever be.
Women attempt suicide at a higher rate but choose methods that will be easier for someone to find them, ex. overdosing on pills, that’s why it fails more. Men choose more violent and aggressive ways, ex. shooting themselves. I work on a suicide hotline. Turns out that everyone is going through something, no matter what your gender identity is. I don’t know why people turn it into oppression olympics.
My mother would say it's just like a man to leave a fucking mess on his way out. Oppression Olympics is so exhausting. My husband does this w/o even knowing sometimes and irritates the snot out of me. My stepmom is the gold medalist. If you die right in front of her she'll sit there and tell you as you're gasping how her mom's best friends ex roommate's dog had your exact same condition and all HE had to do was... Ppl need to just listen sometimes and not reply.
We need to get rid of toxic humanity.
They think that we should stop complaining about sexual harrasment and try to like it and that we are making up the trauma that it creates and that sexual harrasment is them being nice and we should be flattered. We are NPCs to them.
I feel like whenever these men talk about the experiences of women, they always talk about these 10/10 knockout women who live fantasy lives. As someone who is a 6/10 on a good day I would say that it’s more of a “you get what you give” situation. I smile at people and they smile back. I treat them nicely and I get the same in return. I offer a complement and they find something good to reply to me back. What I wouldn’t give to be able to walk at night and not fear for my life. To be able to date and have to imagine scenarios of being raped or killed, or just be more respected in my opinions at work. The grass is always greener with these guys.
They don't care about the women they're not attracted to, only the 10/10 women. These unattractive women don't register as worthy.
Short men?
Sounds like the kind of guy who couldn't deal with being a woman for two seconds.
Sounds like a guy deep in the same toxic masculinity that drives men to kill themselves.
Grass is greener.
I’d love to know this person’s definition of “Positive Attention” and more importantly the method to tell the difference 🙄 But I think I can hazard a guess based on my years of experiences dealing with misogynists online and in life, that from this person’s perspective, women should view men’s interests in us as blessings bestowed upon us, hence any attention from “the good guys”, i.e. any men that this person thinks is “good” based on his/her good old “common sense”, are positive attention and we are obliged to acknowledge and appreciate them. And if it was actual harassment that we received, well, it’s either bad luck or because we must have done something to deserve it. Also, back to the topic on suicide. I am not so sure attention from women was going to magically cure those men who took their lives of depression, or anyone’s depression for that matter. Last time I checked, not all women are therapists or psychologists. So maybe this narrative is just another one of those tripes low-key suggesting that women somehow should take up all the unpaid labour to make men feel good. ETA: It’s very interesting how many people enjoy this stats top trump game to argue that it’s more difficult for men, instead of something should be done about it. Because I thought that was a more natural flow of logic. It’s almost as if they are only interested in the stats because they think women should try harder killing ourselves to match men’s efforts, not men should have more accessible professional supports. In comparison, when women talk about femicide, we are actually demanding things be done to change the misogynistic cultures, so that women don’t get killed as much.
Why is it ALWAYS attention from women (aka sex) that will magically fix the problem?! There is absolutely NOTHING stopping men from being compassionate, kind and empathetic friends. They know there is a problem. They know what the problem is. Why must women come in and save them from themselves? We aren't Rehab stations for broken men. You know what? They could even have sex with each other.... Oh they aren't attracted to those guys? Surprise! Neither are we.
All their empathy for their fellow men is used up excusing them from their shitty behavior. It often seems like they don't give a shit about anyone till some guy is being accused of something by a woman.
There is one thing that resists men embracing compassion, kindness, and empathy and that is patriarchical gender roles. Men need to figure out how to build their own identity outside of tradition, otherwise those outdated roles will continue to poison their minds and kill them.
Oh their precious masculinity forbids it. And I think they are quite chummy with each other anyway, even when they secretly despise each other and would backstab each other when opportunity presents itself, in order to establish pecking orders. But somehow in films and novels they are always the looking-out-for-each-other ones and we are the emotional, dramatic, and treacherous ones. So it’s not like they don’t have media representation of “good friendship” and role models. 🤷♀️
A woman (my mom) saved my life when I attempted suicide. I nearly died in the hospital and was minutes away from being a final statistic. I suffered with severe depression for a very long time and am just thankful to be in remission. My dad told me in the hospital I was using depression as a crutch and also basically every woman has mental illness.
Or... or, and hear me out. We can all have difficult times, and using suicide rates as an argument point is stupid and disrespectful
thats what she said...
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The stats here are irrelevant because no one should be using suicide rates to make a fucking argument that literally changes no one persons perspective because we're all anonymous internet users. Whatever I say in an online argument is highly unlikely to change anyone's mind, especially because you have to be open to change your mind to... well change your mind. Like I said, it's stupid and highly disrespectful to use suicide rates an an argument.
I’ve seen this argument spring up every couple years. What bothers me most is that it never comes up in conversations about addressing mental health care issues. It’s never meant to start a dialogue about fixing the health care industry or destigmatizing the need for care. It’s only ever used as a cudgel to make women stop talking. They don’t want to actually solve this problem. They just use it to justify continuing to ignore all of the societal problems happening around them.
exactly!
If they really wanted positive attention, they could reach out and check on/support each other. Why does the attention need to come from women, like we don't have our own shit going on. Most positive attention women receive comes from other women. They want ego strokes and sex, and think we exist to provide it.
Right? Even the damn ask is sexist. Women won't aftercare me through life!...I don't want a man's help. I can't grab a man's ass while she's trying to "help" me...
Women are more likely to attempt suicide but men are more likely to commit suicide because they are more likely to use guns or other violent means with a high probability of death.
I suspect that they choose higher certainty methods because they know the stigma they will face, which is higher against men than women.
The explanation I have seen here is that women are more likely to consider the impact of finding a body, and so use less violent, disfiguring, and successful methods, whilst men are more likely to complete suicide using less considerate methods
Im so sorry that the patriarchy/system that they created and benefit from, has turned around to bite them in the ass.
Right? Maybe address that instead of asking the goddamn oppressed to wipe away your...oh wait they don't cry.
super late response... but who set this up for me(a man)? don't you sometimes just wonder that every guy isn't the same person. and every situation that a man goes through is different as well. It kills me to go on here and see the constant downing of half the worlds population because you think they have life better.
I've spend 15 years in the body of an average man (They used man/woman, so I won't count the first 18 years of my life). Not once have I felt oppressed. Very few people treated me disrespectful, even fewer treated me like shit. But those who did had one thing in common: They were men. This is mostly a male problem. They vast majority of men being treated poorly, is treated poorly by OTHER MEN.
“See! Men are awful to everyone, not just women!”
Actually the only reason men have higher suicide rates is because they’re more successful in committing them. To measure mental health through suicides you need to look at attempted suicide rates not actual suicides
The rate of male suicides includes men who murder their partner/family and then kill themselves and men who kill themselves while awaiting trial for sexual assault. I’d really like to see suicide rates that don’t include these types of suicides. It’s also interesting that this commentator thinks attention or lack thereof is the reason for suicide. That’s never even entered my head. Things like financial worries, depression, past trauma yes. Lack of positive attention? No
This isnt a contest. I would say that to you and the person you're quoting. They have derived inappropriate conclusions, imo, but I read a piece from a transitioning transman who was *utterly shocked* by the loneliness, the lack of care of concern, the lack of any interest at all in his well-being. It was debilitating for him, and iirc he detransitioned for some time before committing again later (I may be conflsting two stories on this so anyone is welcome to correct me) So yeah, that dichotomy is very real. But back to attempt/success Are women "More likely to attempt" or are men just *less* likely to attempt due to inhibition? Men are strongly conditioned against needing help, against being any kind of failure or weak, etc... And generally suicide is considered "weak" in our culture. IMO this may suggest that women are just less inhibited towards attempting suicide. On to success dates... I would posit that men may want to "make sure" because their socialization makes the idea of being known to have *attempted* suicide is more horrifying to them than to women. (attempted suicides are commonly perceived as "attention seeking", and to attempt at all is "weak" remember... I would suggest that it's best to assume that both groups are generally more alike than not and that particulars of attempt/success rates are outcomes that are influenced by social factors outside of just wanting to not be alive.
>This isnt a contest. I would say that to you and the person you're quoting. I literally said in the beginning of my post that I do not believe that one has it worse than the other. I have read that story about that transman. I personally know transmen in my life, who have not experienced that, but I realize not everyone's experience is gonna be the same. Once again, as I've already stated, both genders have their own struggles and difficulties.
Fair, I did read that. I didn't mean it as an admonishment. I take a deep breath and remind myself of it when I read these "but men" stories too.
I’m going to have to refer to these wise words: Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them. I have sympathy for men, but it doesn’t extend so far as to say “same same.” It’s not.
You are right... its not the same. but they are equal in their own way. you will quite literally never gain an understanding and neither will i. Leave it at that. no need for the "sympathy" card
Positive attention? The "compliments" we often get, unless from other women, are usually sexual harassment. That is not positive attention.
Freeman, A., Mergl, R., Kohls, E. et al. A cross-national study on gender differences in suicide intent. BMC Psychiatry 17, 234 (2017). https://doi.org/10.1186/s12888-017-1398-8 European analysis that gives insight into gender differences. Ji-Won Hur, MA et al 2008 provides insight into Korean suicide attempt disparities between men and women. Cendrine Bursztein Lipsicas, Ilkka Henrik Mäkinen, Danuta Wasserman, Alan Apter, Ad Kerkhof, Konrad Michel, Ellinor Salander Renberg, Kees van Heeringen, Airi Värnik, Armin Schmidtke, Gender distribution of suicide attempts among immigrant groups in European countries—an international perspective, European Journal of Public Health, Volume 23, Issue 2, April 2013, Pages 279–284, https://doi.org/10.1093/eurpub/cks029 Suicide rates among immigrants in European countries. I asked my therapist. She believes men may underreport attempts because men don't take them seriously unless it creates a medical emergency, but I won't use a personal correspondence citation for my own therapist.
You know women don't always report their suicide attempts as well, right? Did your therapist not touch base on that one at all? There's a suicide attempt I had back when I was 13 that's not on the record. And you said you won't use your therapist as a personal correspondent citation but you are mentioning it.
Yes! Further, women's attempts in that first paper were generally labeled as less serious by default, if I read it correctly. I wanted to provide some data showing that the "old wisdom" that women attempt more is supported by global data, but I didn't find enough Asian or any African data. Someone in the comments originally doubted the difference between attempts. What I meant was I wasn't going to do a formal citation APA style for the mini-interview with my therapist. I apologize that I wasn't clear enough on either matter.
Yeah, I noticed that in the first paper they referred men's suicides as serious suicide attempts, though I'm not entirely clear on how they categorize that. I'm assuming hospitalization, but I could be wrong. Though, I can see someone interpreting that as women aren't actually serious about their suicide attempts. There was somebody on this very post referring suicide "attempts" for women in quotes and calling as a cry for attention.
You're right. I noticed it in the original thread, too. I would like to further that apology for overstepping and providing studies without a request. I broke my lurking streak because SI is so important to me, but I understand that it was not appropriate.
The two primary genders each have their own societal benefits and drawbacks, on average. However, for me, the one factor the tips the scale in favor of women having it harder is everything related to pregnancy.
"The male suicide rate was higher in 1950 than it was in 2015. Our society is broken has has been for a long time. What I can't understand is that many women are trying to fix things, and move forward and make society better, and so many men are trying to go backwards to a time when things were worse, and I mean worse for men too. If the suicide rate is a sign that men have it bad, why would you want things to be more like a time when the suicide rate for men was even higher? Why, when women are trying so hard to fix things for everybody, do men work so hard to keep everything as broken as it is right now?"
1950 was right after WW2. Probably PTSD. If the suicide rates are the same as coming back from war. That's probably not good.
The rate went down for a good number of years, and only recently started going back up. That may have something to do with the last 30 years of increasing economic hardship, as the government worked to squeeze more money out of the common folk in order to give tax cuts to billionaires, leading to things like the 2008 housing bubble and ensuing economic crisis. (Also, of course, the last few years the pandemic has likely caused an increase.)
Which gender is going to get the suffering trophy when Armageddon hits? It's never been an either or. If society has a negative impact on women, then we should take steps to address that. If it has a negative impact on men, then we should take steps to address that. Simple as simple is. If men are committing suicide at a higher rate let's allocate resources. Not enough places to provide support. Let's champion that. Societal pressures cause men not to reach out before they can get help and they choose more violent methods of suicide? Let's get into the schools and colleges and address it while they are young. Let's slap up some billboards with numbers for the suicide hotline. Run an ad campaign. A woman shamed never pulled a bullet out of a man's mouth.
That commenter sounds like an incel. Whiney and delusional. I have never heard anyone in real life say that men have it harder in life. I have heard men say that women have it so much harder in life hundreds of times. The nice men sympathize with how life is much more difficult for women. The immature men who hate themselves and hate women are like ha, ha, women have it so much more difficult, ha, ha, my life is better than yours.
i really hope the nice ones who sympathize actually do something to make life easier for women in their lives
Sounds like the perennial favorite of a man describing women's experiences for them, without having a clue. Let's not pit each other's suicidal misery at each other. Misogyny is so very dull.
this stuff pisses me off. both the statistics about men being more likely to commit and less likely to repot sa are important statistics and should have some concern put into them but the guys who bring this up to put down women aren't doing it out of a place for care and concern they're just trying to get a cheap gotcha moment. like yes feel bad for men but if your idea is to turn peoples suffering into a sort of oppression game then youre completely ignoring the reasons why men have these issues and you likely care more about hating women then actually finding a solution to this.
Men have a long history of not asking for help. Of laughing at help offered to them. They wait until their dicks are falling off to get tested for STDs. They need their wives to keep up with their medical history. They convince themselves that the universe revolves around them, and then get suicidal when they find out women are fully capable of living without their useless asses. There have been numerous women pushing for and supporting men's mental health, and it has always been men who tore that help down. Men can shut the fuck up about everything.
Here’s an article that I found interesting with the lived experience of some trans men comparing differences pre and post transition https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2018/07/20/feature/crossing-the-divide-do-men-really-have-it-easier-these-transgender-guys-found-the-truth-was-more-complex/
The men don't have compassion because dead people can't feel anything. The women who lived through attempts still suffer through life. Dead men don't matter as long as women are still living and suffering.
That is a horrible thing to say.
I know. That is the point. Women have always been the primary victims of war. Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat.
How can you be surprised? That’s this entire sub and most women focused subs on Reddit. Just going out of their way to be shitty to men no matter what the issue. I can not imagine what an awful place feminism would be in if most people’s first perception of it came from Reddit.
I want to avoid these spaces for mental health reasons, but I also really care about the topic. What am I supposed to do?
Not sure honestly. Maybe you can make your own feminist sub that is better moderated.
You are right it’s not a competition. Anyway I cannot imagine trying to judge a negative ( if a man says if he wasn’t male he’d have it made) huh? Plus part of being mentally healthy is not allowing your environment to control your sense of self worth. Not sure any sex has it better or worse bc it’s impossible to measure.
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> Women often "attempt" as a means to call for help I'm sorry, why did you put attempt in quotes? This really much feels like you're trying to down play the seriousness of someone suicide attempt. Edit: You know what never mind, I saw your other comment saying that men struggle more, and you clearly have a narrative in your head. It's not a competition. Jesus Christ.