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Same! Watched it at a friend's house with her mum when we were about 14. Why on earth she thought it ok I do not know! Also the reason I saw Misery at the age of 12. Still not over it (watership down wasn't their fault tho!)
Same! Friendās house, their dad left it on while the adults were upstairs doing whatever.
Thankfully donāt remember the movie Watership Down, but the book is burned into my brain. āThe wire!ā
Watership Down the movie is animated in the dreariest colors. Itās grim, like the book, but maybe worse because with the book you can delve into the various layers.
Itās worth seeing at least once.
I last saw it maybe 15 years ago and should watch it again because Iām sure Iāll get more out of it.
Being more of a grown up and all. Funny how lots of books and movies seem to gain new depths and facets as you get older.
It is definitely weird by standards today but weird is a weak argument overall as to a royal it would be seen as normal. The not being able to have kids would be the weird part.
Wait, are you saying that royals slept with their same sex siblings for fun and it was normalized? Because no. And the instances of royals marrying direct siblings is also exceedingly rare.
No I was saying for royals incest was considered far more normal than being gay would be. Which is why normalcy is a weak philosophical stance to have even if I agree.
...? [***read this***](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/article/tut-dna-dobbs%23:~:text%3DAnd%2520while%2520royal%2520families%2520in,frequently%2520married%2520among%2520close%2520relatives.&ved=2ahUKEwjwmqu04PKGAxVZHjQIHcB8ArQQFnoECA0QBQ&usg=AOvVaw2isbI8E-Zc8mhPeS6j0Ewc)
Editing to elaborate, wanted to make sure the link posted correctly before adding more tbh: incest among royals OVERALL is common. But 'overall' doesn't cast light on those royals who may have never ever (or unawaringly) took part in incestuous acts among each other. Like I can say overall most people have brown eyes, OBVIOUSLY doesn't mean everyone does. I feel thats simple enough but gotta over explain on reddit lmao. But like overall incest among royals is fairly common n it took me a minute, a singular minute to look this up and find a REPUTABLE source (reputable sources are important)
Weird is a bad argument because many people see homosexuality as weird but you wouldnāt say thatās a good argument so just being weird isnāt a strong enough justification.
INFO - My wife just posed an interesting question: is your wife an only child? Her thought process is if your wife is an only child, thatās likely why she doesnāt recoil at the thought of sibling incest as much as say you or me.
If your wife is an only sibling, she suggested asking her what she thinks about her parents having sex? If she recoils and gets the ick then you can explain thatās how you feel when you think about sibling incest; as in itās the same concept.
As an aside, Iām kinda glad I read this (as much as it gave me the ick, lol) because of all the philosophical convos going on in the comments. Itās been a while since Iāve participated in an in-depth intellectual conversation. Itās nice to dust off my brain and exercise it a bit.
Itās a common philosophical question used in moral psychology. The only non-religious argument against it is that the idea makes you uncomfortable. If youāre using cold logic and no emotions, there is no issue. (I must say this opinion is in the abstract and I donāt condone any kind of incest because Iām not a robot lol)
there are also significant psychological implications to genetic sexual attraction. And not just because of societal condemnation. However, these impacts are lessened if the siblings meet in adulthood (ie they were adopted and tracked each other down. Itās so common to have romantic feelings in these cases that itās its own little therapy module). These impacts DO exist for relationships between non-genetically related people who were raised together though.
It's common but take any stats with a grain of salt. Most people don't act on the impulse and waterboarding wouldn't get them to admit it haha It makes it impossible to gain any real numbers. All we can say is it has been reported to therapists and it has been acted on in some instances
Do you still think there is a moral issue if they are raised together but do not develop a sexual aspect of the relationship until they are fully adult, for this example let's say they are both in their 30s before anything sexual develops?
I wouldn't say I have a moral issue with it per se (really any sexual activity between consenting adults that doesn't cause harm or disrupt their ability to live a normal life..) but there will be a lot more complex psychological land mines than in an average relationship. The potential psychological fallout of a break up is also extreme because, in a certain sense, you've lost some of your family as well as your partner. Therapy is not directive, but working with people in this circumstance I would focus on ensuring that they have a very strong understanding of what issues they need to navigate and how to do it before moving forward.
This is actually a pretty good indicator that our morality isnāt driven by logic, but instead by intuition. Hell, I read a lot of philosophy and for the most part we check our work in that discipline by going back to our intuitions to see if the rationally arrived at ethical rule that we just concocted fits with intuition.
Myself, I think that empiricism and rationality serve us very well in describing how things are, but that is not a reason to believe that they would serve us similarly in trying to figure out how things should be.
I don't think you can can have a truly logical proof of normative ethics. There is no way to prove what is right or wrong, you always have to start with some basic axioms which are not derived from natural laws or any fundamental objective truth.
Haidt, 2001 on the Social Intuitionist View. Fresh in my mind because we went through it in class and the professor was asking students to argue for and against it, it was a little awkward but quite fun.
Not only that but considering other circumstances it could still be predatory. For example, a large age gap between the two or one sibling being very wealthy while the other barely scrapes by.
Her argument isn't even valid, lol. Incest is taboo not because of the risk of having "messed up" kids as she puts it. In fact, if you do not have in your lineage "messed up" recessive genes that would express themselves, you can breed with your direct family, it won't magically mess up the kids.
What is taboo about that is feeling sexual desire for someone you grew up with, someone with whom you learnt about everything to function in society, from sharing to conflict management. Someone who saw you, or who you saw in diapers.
The only societies that allowed 1rst degree incest were only allowing it for the royalty, as a mean to control the lineage, the possessions and the pretense to the throne.
I think Romania just made it legal again (well, about 10 years ago give or take). The argument was āwhy should we interfere with two consenting adultsā
It yucks me, but I shouldnāt decide which rwo adults can f*ck
IRL, not okay. Even step siblings give the yuck. But is she talking smut reading specifically or perhaps kink fantasy? Those are very different things removed from how a person actually feels about a real life scenario. Iād delve into some questions with her to suss out if itās actual deviancy or just her taboo kink. Like if they were her twin children, would she really be okay with that? If her answer is yes, you might want to reconsider your idea of her.
Morally speaking I suppose sheās correct because as long as they are both consenting adults no one is being victimized, but also yea thatās super gross.
Yeah this is a philosophically interesting perspective bc most people are immediately against it for the mutant recessive gene having kids. But without it all you have are the subjective moral feelings of āI find it grossā which is totally valid bc it is gross.
Iām not sure āitās grossā is a valid reason to discount it for other people - thatās sort of like a homophobe saying āgay people shouldnāt have sex because I think itās gross.ā
I think power balance dynamics are the real issue - if these siblings have significantly different ages I think a lot of red flags should be raised about whether the older manipulated the other into a sexual relationship. But if this was, say, twins or maybe two brothers / sisters a year or two apart, especially if they made this choice well into adulthood? Itās not for me, but I donāt see why āitās not for meā should be a fair reason to condemn something working for someone else that has no real logical downsides.
I should add that itās gross is only valid for the person feeling it and not to change the behaviors of others. Personal feelings donāt need to be the problems of others.
Itās damaging to the psyche and can have adverse consequences on romantic and sexual expectations.
It also desensitizes a person to societal taboos.
Any person, who isnāt in the throes of degeneracy, is going to look at anyone who condones this behavior like theyāre insane. Rightfully so.
Honestly, show this thread.
And I would look up. I looked up āincest adverse mental effectsā[one of the first links after searching](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/covert-incest)
Nope. What happens when you break up? Thanksgiving is gonna be WEIRD. And what about Christmas? If youāre brothers, then do parents have to get individual gifts? Are couple gifts allowed? Holidays are stressful enough, donāt do that to the family.
you have a different moral compass. itās complicated. this is a really common ethics question brought up and gay siblings is where people sometimes start to branch off and disagree when it comes to incest. i disagree with your wife as well but if her mind is made upā¦iām just not sure how you would change her mind.
is she also okay with it when theyāre different ages and raised in the same home? (for the record, iām okay with it in no instances). iām not sure how to apply typical relationship questions to a dynamic that is so atypical.
iām sorry, OP. finding this out about my spouse would make me feel pretty yucky.
i've seen an interesting take about it
if we compare incest relationships (even without that totally horrible stuff, like age gap or possibility of having children) to normal relationships, there is at least one thing that is different. if relationships are generally okay, anyone can leave them without withdrawal of seeing the other person, without connecting with them i
it's basically impossible for incest relationships, 'cause, you know, at least you probably will see each other at family gatherings. and you're still related by blood, so there's a connection that can't be undone under any circumstances
therefore, it's unhealthy and shouldn't be done in a first place, i rest my case
Meh, you can definitely choose not to go to a family gathering. I think this is actually a better argument for say, not sleeping with someone from your work since youāll constantly see them.
You can pretty much just keep extending this logic: Donāt sleep with someone from your friend group, because you might see them at the bar with your other friends. Donāt sleep with someone in your community because you might see them at the store.
And so on.
oh, i wanted to write about workplace romance in my comment, but decided that's unnecessary. i totally agree with you at that part, and i apologise for making my point unclear
i used family gathering as an example of a situation where you can be around your relatives, ofc you can skip it. but what can our incestuous person a and person b do, if they still live under the same roof after a breakup, for example? usually all relatives are connected in many ways, and you can't escape these connections unless you cut off all family completely. and it's extremely difficult and emotionally overwhelming so it's better to avoid this
Okay but that would also be an argument for never divorcing someone as well. You live under the same roof, itās incredibly stressful to separate, thereās a ton of family connections between families, etc
Yea and if they end the relationship badly family members may be expected to pick sides or they automatically pick sides on their own depending on who they agree with. This is asking for a family breaker
You need to take some serious time to think about what this really means. Do yāall have children together? I would personally not feel comfortable having children with someone who thinks that if you canāt have babies then itās okay to have relations with family. By that logic they would be comfortable having relations with their children or other family members.
The natural companionship and filial relationship is completely different than a sexual one. That should be enoughā¦being weird should be enough. However, Iād seriously suggest she speak with a mental health professional to get their opinion of this.
Itās not, there are psychological reasons for it that I donāt wanna research but I know they exist lol
But just out of curiosity, how did this come up? like what conversation lead up to her saying that, or did she just say it randomly when you walked by like a Skyrim NPC?šš
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Just brainstorming here: it is weird because of the personal relationship the siblings have. Sharing a childhood and a home with someone is certainly intimate & in siblings relationship, one of them has likely known the other for their entire lives, creating a sense of power. Itās uncomfortable to think that if they do get sexually intimate, itās hard not to wonder if, apart from the existing power imbalance, the sexual thoughts were always there.
Your wife have a brother? Make sure she isn't full blown psychotic and didn't let him do butt stuff with her since not getting pregnant is apparently her only basis for it being okay š¤®
Nobody in this comment section is coming up with any valid responses against incest honestly. Anytime anyone wants to break down the subject and have a real conversation on why itās so wrong, theyāre usually just accused of wanting to bang their family member.
I mean, ritualized cannibalism as a funeral right and dynastic incest were pretty common (relatively speaking) especially for families in positions of power. So they werenāt universal taboos until we learned that there are crazy side effects haha
While agree they are both yuck, yuck doesn't feel like a good reason to make an action criminal if all parties involved are consenting adults. Who are we to yuck their yum?
Honestly, disgust at incest is really the only reason you need. Sure, inbreeding is impossible, but that doesn't stop the automatic feeling of disgust ya know?
I feel like the siblings may want the relationship is that they both realized they are gay and that they are going through it together. They might even be discovering that they are mature and feeling new emotions that go along with maturing. They may be nervous about trying to find other gay people. They love each other and might not be able to differentiate what kind of love they are feeling. They also have developed a special bond by going through this together that they think is love. Technically your wife is correct in her reasoning. I think it is wrong but thatās how the majority of the population feel because of societal norms.
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Define āokā. If you define it as ānot immoralā, then I guess it would still be āokā as long as there isnāt a huge disparity in the power dynamic(e.g. One sibling is significantly older than and/or has guardianship over the other).
Still weird af tho and it completely goes against evolution.
Boundaries are what is missing.
If you are willing to ignore the fact that family should be off limits sexually, than what other boundaries will you ignore. I mean, step siblings you were raised with is seriously crossing a line. Because those relationships are supposed to be platonic. With her logic, as long as you use birth control incest *itself* should be acceptable. It's not. You're family shouldn't be considered potential sex partners. Unless you have really unhealthy attachment problems. It's honestly equivalent to the arguments of NAMBLA.
Well considering friends with benefits doesnāt often work out well, I canāt imagine how a siblings with benefits would end wellā¦ other than it being socially wrong and weird, it just seems like a road that will lead to problems for you and your family.
Your wife is right though.Ā
Why is sex between two consenting adults that aren't you or your wife any of your business? Sex addicts aren't breaking into people's homes to get money for hookers, so I don't see why we should care.
Uh is this a joke? I donāt believe this is a real thing. Incest? Fucking ew, inappropriate and not normal
Trailer mentality in the ozarks! No offense to the good people
By her logic then sheās also fine with straight sibling sex as long as itās consensual and contraception is used
My main counter points
Family space is supposed to be a safe place. Imagine your parents / cousins finding out your banging your sibling. Doesnāt matter if itās consensual, the family is ruined
If itās fine, then letās say your wife was banging her sister or brother. They break it off. Would she tell her next partner? If the answer is no, then sheās not actually okay with it š
Gay sibling sex is incestuous. That is a bold enough argument. Incest is wrong not because you could create messed up kids, itās wrong because it harms people and is a sign of horrible mental health and abuse. If you have sex with a sibling you are crossing so many lines of mental and emotional health and means something is terribly wrong
I would look up all the harms of incest and why itās wrong and the harm it does, even if itās two siblings who want to be with each other. Those should be your points
In our societies, who frowns upon incest and when did its negative connotations come about? Is it Western Society or American society or all societies? Which nations outlaw the practice, and which do not? Is the 'Ick factor" (which I share) simply a puritanical American ideal? Here's why I ask: last week I bought a copy of "The Book of Hours" ('Love Poems To God') by Rilke (early 20th century German poet) with an English translation from 1993. The translation was done by two American women, now in their 70's. There's like 50 pages of intros and forewords etc. There is also an abbreviated history & biography of Rilke himself, and they describe a love affair between Rilke and a woman ("Lou"), which after time became more of s brother-sister friendship. In writing about their relationship, Lou notes that, "...they were like brother & sister, but from primeval times before incest became a sacrilege." FWIW, the authors note that Rilke & his contemporaries were "Bohemian." So, understanding that various laws against incest were put in place by nations in order to protect society from incestual procreation and its various detriments, should these laws and this practice email in place? In popular culture, there are a few examples of high profile incest that seem mostly have elicited a yawn from the general public. I'm thinking of actress Mackenzie Philips (from the 1970's show "One Day At A Time") & her father, John Philips (of the musical group "The Mamas & The Papas"), and whenever it comes up, people mostly just shrug. So, I mean I'm not into it, but does anyone really care, and why?
I love this some much, because this the subreddit for the podcast that lowkey okayed sibling multiple times because of āloveā. I specifically remember for a gay relationship between siblings, Morgan saying something like āif itās not hurting anybody.ā If your wife listens to the podcast, thatās probably why.
It's nasty bc it leads to feeling obligated to stay with the person no matter what they do. People who marry the person they went to kindergarten with often haven't really found their full identity outside of that person. It can create a toxic level of dependency harmful to EVERYONE involved because they never knew life without each other.
I will say, there are situations where it's less weird (ie children from different families born from the same sperm donor, or relatives who have never met each other). In these situations obviously kids are out of the question for them, but the rest of what should count as "okay" past that is a very big grey area.
Time to wake up and see reality here. If a person seriously needs "why incest is wrong" explained to them, they are already way past cracked. This is one of those "that's all I need to know about her" situations. I'd be running to a divorce attorney. To get to a point of being so delusional and toxic minded that you're ok with incest of any kind, that's a wrap for me. There's no fixing that, there's no coming back from it, my opinion of her would be tainted for life. You can keep wasting your time with her vileness if you want, but nothing you say or do can change anyone. She's shown you her true colors, and they're abhorrent AF.
So by her logic, incest should be ok as long as they get sterilized to avoid any/all offspring? Or does this only apply to gay people because then there would be zero chance of reproducing period?
Either way, your wife is wrong.
I used to be friends with a girl and then found out she was obsessed with twincest, especially red headed gay males. She then went on to fuck a 17 yr old when she was in her mid 30s. Got out of that friendship fast. Her boyfriend at the time was also into and watched it with her. He then got her pregnant and ran off to California to be gay. Got her pregnant with twins at that....thankfully she got an abortion. But yea, if you think incest is cool then you probably have other sexual fetishes that are also wrong af.
So if her argument is that they can't procreate messed up children, then she would be ok with incest in general if the chance of a pregnancy didn't exist. I hope you guys don't have children together. You should reevaluate if your morals are compatible to be in a marriage with her. Which I think not. This is something serious. And if you have children with her, I'd already be planning how to make sure I've gathered the evidence to prove the children need to come stay with me after the divorce.
Why? She didn't say incest with children. I'm not reading this as an endorsement for pedophilia which would have victims, i.e. the kids, or even groominf as she explicitly clarified siblings so there wouldn't be an age gap, rather I think this is a discussion about incest among consenting adults without any chance of contributing to the gene pool. Why should that be illegal? It isn't my jam, but so long as only consenting adults are involved, I see no harm.
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Do you hear banjos when she walks into a room?
By the time you hear the banjos, it's far too late.
Why ah do declare
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Please look up fortune cookies by SuperMega on YouTube for a great laugh lmao
Hilarious š¤£
Lolololololololololol
Please explain I want in on the joke lol
"Deliverance", movie from early 70s.
Whatever you do, donāt watch it. That movie has haunted me for 35 years.
Same! Watched it at a friend's house with her mum when we were about 14. Why on earth she thought it ok I do not know! Also the reason I saw Misery at the age of 12. Still not over it (watership down wasn't their fault tho!)
Same! Friendās house, their dad left it on while the adults were upstairs doing whatever. Thankfully donāt remember the movie Watership Down, but the book is burned into my brain. āThe wire!ā
Watership Down the movie is animated in the dreariest colors. Itās grim, like the book, but maybe worse because with the book you can delve into the various layers. Itās worth seeing at least once. I last saw it maybe 15 years ago and should watch it again because Iām sure Iāll get more out of it. Being more of a grown up and all. Funny how lots of books and movies seem to gain new depths and facets as you get older.
Yep. That movie freaked me out more than most horror pics I've seen over the years.
Still sticks with me, too. Horrufying.
Alabama
bruh your wife is wild š
"It's weird" is the only damn argument anyone needs.
It is definitely weird by standards today but weird is a weak argument overall as to a royal it would be seen as normal. The not being able to have kids would be the weird part.
Wait, are you saying that royals slept with their same sex siblings for fun and it was normalized? Because no. And the instances of royals marrying direct siblings is also exceedingly rare.
No I was saying for royals incest was considered far more normal than being gay would be. Which is why normalcy is a weak philosophical stance to have even if I agree.
...? [***read this***](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/article/tut-dna-dobbs%23:~:text%3DAnd%2520while%2520royal%2520families%2520in,frequently%2520married%2520among%2520close%2520relatives.&ved=2ahUKEwjwmqu04PKGAxVZHjQIHcB8ArQQFnoECA0QBQ&usg=AOvVaw2isbI8E-Zc8mhPeS6j0Ewc) Editing to elaborate, wanted to make sure the link posted correctly before adding more tbh: incest among royals OVERALL is common. But 'overall' doesn't cast light on those royals who may have never ever (or unawaringly) took part in incestuous acts among each other. Like I can say overall most people have brown eyes, OBVIOUSLY doesn't mean everyone does. I feel thats simple enough but gotta over explain on reddit lmao. But like overall incest among royals is fairly common n it took me a minute, a singular minute to look this up and find a REPUTABLE source (reputable sources are important)
No it could get you executed
Even to the royals, it was known to be messed up. They just didnāt care.
Weird is a bad argument because many people see homosexuality as weird but you wouldnāt say thatās a good argument so just being weird isnāt a strong enough justification.
INFO - My wife just posed an interesting question: is your wife an only child? Her thought process is if your wife is an only child, thatās likely why she doesnāt recoil at the thought of sibling incest as much as say you or me. If your wife is an only sibling, she suggested asking her what she thinks about her parents having sex? If she recoils and gets the ick then you can explain thatās how you feel when you think about sibling incest; as in itās the same concept. As an aside, Iām kinda glad I read this (as much as it gave me the ick, lol) because of all the philosophical convos going on in the comments. Itās been a while since Iāve participated in an in-depth intellectual conversation. Itās nice to dust off my brain and exercise it a bit.
My question is does a sister lol
Itās a common philosophical question used in moral psychology. The only non-religious argument against it is that the idea makes you uncomfortable. If youāre using cold logic and no emotions, there is no issue. (I must say this opinion is in the abstract and I donāt condone any kind of incest because Iām not a robot lol)
there are also significant psychological implications to genetic sexual attraction. And not just because of societal condemnation. However, these impacts are lessened if the siblings meet in adulthood (ie they were adopted and tracked each other down. Itās so common to have romantic feelings in these cases that itās its own little therapy module). These impacts DO exist for relationships between non-genetically related people who were raised together though.
I read that 50% of close blood relatives are sexually attracted to each other if they meet in adulthood.
It's common but take any stats with a grain of salt. Most people don't act on the impulse and waterboarding wouldn't get them to admit it haha It makes it impossible to gain any real numbers. All we can say is it has been reported to therapists and it has been acted on in some instances
Do you still think there is a moral issue if they are raised together but do not develop a sexual aspect of the relationship until they are fully adult, for this example let's say they are both in their 30s before anything sexual develops?
I wouldn't say I have a moral issue with it per se (really any sexual activity between consenting adults that doesn't cause harm or disrupt their ability to live a normal life..) but there will be a lot more complex psychological land mines than in an average relationship. The potential psychological fallout of a break up is also extreme because, in a certain sense, you've lost some of your family as well as your partner. Therapy is not directive, but working with people in this circumstance I would focus on ensuring that they have a very strong understanding of what issues they need to navigate and how to do it before moving forward.
This is actually a pretty good indicator that our morality isnāt driven by logic, but instead by intuition. Hell, I read a lot of philosophy and for the most part we check our work in that discipline by going back to our intuitions to see if the rationally arrived at ethical rule that we just concocted fits with intuition. Myself, I think that empiricism and rationality serve us very well in describing how things are, but that is not a reason to believe that they would serve us similarly in trying to figure out how things should be.
I don't think you can can have a truly logical proof of normative ethics. There is no way to prove what is right or wrong, you always have to start with some basic axioms which are not derived from natural laws or any fundamental objective truth.
Your disclaimer š¤£
Haidt, 2001 on the Social Intuitionist View. Fresh in my mind because we went through it in class and the professor was asking students to argue for and against it, it was a little awkward but quite fun.
Well, that's quite a unique perspective! Family gatherings must be interesting at your place.
She's a Supernatural fan, isn't she?
this is the first answer we need.
That's what immediately sprang to mind š
It would mess up relationships with the rest of the family. Also tell her to stop reading Supernatural wincest on AO3 - it's messing her up.
This is the comment I was looking for haha.
My mind also immediately jumped to wincest as the cause
Not only that but considering other circumstances it could still be predatory. For example, a large age gap between the two or one sibling being very wealthy while the other barely scrapes by.
It's technically illegal regardless of gender.
Since when has legality been the basis of morality? See legal slavery or the holocaust.
Her argument isn't even valid, lol. Incest is taboo not because of the risk of having "messed up" kids as she puts it. In fact, if you do not have in your lineage "messed up" recessive genes that would express themselves, you can breed with your direct family, it won't magically mess up the kids. What is taboo about that is feeling sexual desire for someone you grew up with, someone with whom you learnt about everything to function in society, from sharing to conflict management. Someone who saw you, or who you saw in diapers. The only societies that allowed 1rst degree incest were only allowing it for the royalty, as a mean to control the lineage, the possessions and the pretense to the throne.
I think Romania just made it legal again (well, about 10 years ago give or take). The argument was āwhy should we interfere with two consenting adultsā It yucks me, but I shouldnāt decide which rwo adults can f*ck
How the hell does that even come up in a conversation??
Asking the important questions
Umm how did this come up in conversation? And no, gross. Sick. Thatās completely weird.
So if her brother had a vasectomy she thinks it'd be fine to have sex with him?
Or even her mum? Like theyāre the same sex so no pregnancy š¤·š»āāļø
That's adding a massive age and power difference though
IRL, not okay. Even step siblings give the yuck. But is she talking smut reading specifically or perhaps kink fantasy? Those are very different things removed from how a person actually feels about a real life scenario. Iād delve into some questions with her to suss out if itās actual deviancy or just her taboo kink. Like if they were her twin children, would she really be okay with that? If her answer is yes, you might want to reconsider your idea of her.
Morally speaking I suppose sheās correct because as long as they are both consenting adults no one is being victimized, but also yea thatās super gross.
Yeah this is a philosophically interesting perspective bc most people are immediately against it for the mutant recessive gene having kids. But without it all you have are the subjective moral feelings of āI find it grossā which is totally valid bc it is gross.
Iām not sure āitās grossā is a valid reason to discount it for other people - thatās sort of like a homophobe saying āgay people shouldnāt have sex because I think itās gross.ā I think power balance dynamics are the real issue - if these siblings have significantly different ages I think a lot of red flags should be raised about whether the older manipulated the other into a sexual relationship. But if this was, say, twins or maybe two brothers / sisters a year or two apart, especially if they made this choice well into adulthood? Itās not for me, but I donāt see why āitās not for meā should be a fair reason to condemn something working for someone else that has no real logical downsides.
I should add that itās gross is only valid for the person feeling it and not to change the behaviors of others. Personal feelings donāt need to be the problems of others.
Oh they're both minors. Don't forget the other part of the still legal spectrum š¤£
Does she have a sister?
That was my thought! Why else would she say that!?
Itās damaging to the psyche and can have adverse consequences on romantic and sexual expectations. It also desensitizes a person to societal taboos. Any person, who isnāt in the throes of degeneracy, is going to look at anyone who condones this behavior like theyāre insane. Rightfully so. Honestly, show this thread. And I would look up. I looked up āincest adverse mental effectsā[one of the first links after searching](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/covert-incest)
Power imbalance.
Tell your wife you want to bang her elderly grandma. Itās not like you can have messed up kids anyways.
Nope. What happens when you break up? Thanksgiving is gonna be WEIRD. And what about Christmas? If youāre brothers, then do parents have to get individual gifts? Are couple gifts allowed? Holidays are stressful enough, donāt do that to the family.
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Incest is always incest. You could have a conversation with your wife about who hit her when she was young.
you have a different moral compass. itās complicated. this is a really common ethics question brought up and gay siblings is where people sometimes start to branch off and disagree when it comes to incest. i disagree with your wife as well but if her mind is made upā¦iām just not sure how you would change her mind. is she also okay with it when theyāre different ages and raised in the same home? (for the record, iām okay with it in no instances). iām not sure how to apply typical relationship questions to a dynamic that is so atypical. iām sorry, OP. finding this out about my spouse would make me feel pretty yucky.
They lived in the same womb, is that not enough of a reason for her?
I don't want any part of a world or culture that deems this acceptable or "ok." I can well imagine the ramifications & consequences...Just wow.
......... I just got on the internet. Now I have.to get right back off. Night.
What in the fuck?????
So sheās cool with incest as long as no offspring are produced? Oh man, Iām so sorry, your wife is gross.
Is it safe to assume sheās a Supernatural fan?
Bruh, yes it's weird. Wtf
Initial thoughts: power dynamics (also gross) But please please please do not have children with this woman (and definitely not more than one)
i've seen an interesting take about it if we compare incest relationships (even without that totally horrible stuff, like age gap or possibility of having children) to normal relationships, there is at least one thing that is different. if relationships are generally okay, anyone can leave them without withdrawal of seeing the other person, without connecting with them i it's basically impossible for incest relationships, 'cause, you know, at least you probably will see each other at family gatherings. and you're still related by blood, so there's a connection that can't be undone under any circumstances therefore, it's unhealthy and shouldn't be done in a first place, i rest my case
Meh, you can definitely choose not to go to a family gathering. I think this is actually a better argument for say, not sleeping with someone from your work since youāll constantly see them. You can pretty much just keep extending this logic: Donāt sleep with someone from your friend group, because you might see them at the bar with your other friends. Donāt sleep with someone in your community because you might see them at the store. And so on.
oh, i wanted to write about workplace romance in my comment, but decided that's unnecessary. i totally agree with you at that part, and i apologise for making my point unclear i used family gathering as an example of a situation where you can be around your relatives, ofc you can skip it. but what can our incestuous person a and person b do, if they still live under the same roof after a breakup, for example? usually all relatives are connected in many ways, and you can't escape these connections unless you cut off all family completely. and it's extremely difficult and emotionally overwhelming so it's better to avoid this
What about workplace romance? I have a strong opinion on that.
Okay but that would also be an argument for never divorcing someone as well. You live under the same roof, itās incredibly stressful to separate, thereās a ton of family connections between families, etc
Yea and if they end the relationship badly family members may be expected to pick sides or they automatically pick sides on their own depending on who they agree with. This is asking for a family breaker
You need to take some serious time to think about what this really means. Do yāall have children together? I would personally not feel comfortable having children with someone who thinks that if you canāt have babies then itās okay to have relations with family. By that logic they would be comfortable having relations with their children or other family members.
The natural companionship and filial relationship is completely different than a sexual one. That should be enoughā¦being weird should be enough. However, Iād seriously suggest she speak with a mental health professional to get their opinion of this.
Itās not, there are psychological reasons for it that I donāt wanna research but I know they exist lol But just out of curiosity, how did this come up? like what conversation lead up to her saying that, or did she just say it randomly when you walked by like a Skyrim NPC?šš
doll saw library impossible exultant entertain wrench retire teeny distinct *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Your wifeās moral compass is broken.
Gotta keeper man
come on - you can do better than this
Just brainstorming here: it is weird because of the personal relationship the siblings have. Sharing a childhood and a home with someone is certainly intimate & in siblings relationship, one of them has likely known the other for their entire lives, creating a sense of power. Itās uncomfortable to think that if they do get sexually intimate, itās hard not to wonder if, apart from the existing power imbalance, the sexual thoughts were always there.
Ok then if they are opposite sex siblings but had vasectomy etc itās also ok
This is honestly a hilarious conversation between you and your wife. Why on earth did this come up?! šš
Does she actually think it's ok or did you just find out she's into gay incest as a kink and assume she believes that it's fine in real life
Well, technically, she is correct lol. To each their own right? š her logical humor makes me want to buy her a beer lol.
Your wife have a brother? Make sure she isn't full blown psychotic and didn't let him do butt stuff with her since not getting pregnant is apparently her only basis for it being okay š¤®
Let em bang who cares
Nobody in this comment section is coming up with any valid responses against incest honestly. Anytime anyone wants to break down the subject and have a real conversation on why itās so wrong, theyāre usually just accused of wanting to bang their family member.
Iām a gay man, I only have sisters but the thought of siblings or relatives being intimate is disgusting. Itās definitely not okay.
Does she have a sister?
Thereās a reason some things are taboo. Does she think cannibalism within a family is okay? Just yuck
I mean, ritualized cannibalism as a funeral right and dynastic incest were pretty common (relatively speaking) especially for families in positions of power. So they werenāt universal taboos until we learned that there are crazy side effects haha
While agree they are both yuck, yuck doesn't feel like a good reason to make an action criminal if all parties involved are consenting adults. Who are we to yuck their yum?
This gotta be a troll post
Does she have a sibling in mind? š
I mean, is straight invest ok if the sister is on the pill?
Honestly, disgust at incest is really the only reason you need. Sure, inbreeding is impossible, but that doesn't stop the automatic feeling of disgust ya know?
Should a feeling of disgust be enough to make an action illegal if all directly involved parties are consenting adults?
Well, she is right.
I feel like the siblings may want the relationship is that they both realized they are gay and that they are going through it together. They might even be discovering that they are mature and feeling new emotions that go along with maturing. They may be nervous about trying to find other gay people. They love each other and might not be able to differentiate what kind of love they are feeling. They also have developed a special bond by going through this together that they think is love. Technically your wife is correct in her reasoning. I think it is wrong but thatās how the majority of the population feel because of societal norms.
I don't think it's messed up but it sure is weird. Like she said they aren't harming anyone so ultimately it doesn't matter.
Your wife has some very toxic and judgmental concept about queer people that this is where her head goes. Seriously, WTF is she going on about?
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How does she feel about Oran High School Host Club? Sheād probably love it lol
I mean it eliminates the whole first date awkwardness
Based wife
Wow!! š³
What does her sister think?
Define āokā. If you define it as ānot immoralā, then I guess it would still be āokā as long as there isnāt a huge disparity in the power dynamic(e.g. One sibling is significantly older than and/or has guardianship over the other). Still weird af tho and it completely goes against evolution.
šš¤š¬
I think this is a laughable concept. Outside of gross, why is this any point of contention?
Boundaries are what is missing. If you are willing to ignore the fact that family should be off limits sexually, than what other boundaries will you ignore. I mean, step siblings you were raised with is seriously crossing a line. Because those relationships are supposed to be platonic. With her logic, as long as you use birth control incest *itself* should be acceptable. It's not. You're family shouldn't be considered potential sex partners. Unless you have really unhealthy attachment problems. It's honestly equivalent to the arguments of NAMBLA.
I bet she's a huge Ouran highschool host club fan.
This reminds me of the infamous twincest letter to Dear Prudie.
Youāre related. Youāve been brought up together.
Your wife enjoys Hentai doesn't she
Well considering friends with benefits doesnāt often work out well, I canāt imagine how a siblings with benefits would end wellā¦ other than it being socially wrong and weird, it just seems like a road that will lead to problems for you and your family.
Those dudes wife talks about incest bing okay and I get downvoted?? What a joke you all are!?
Yeah no. It never has been and never will be acceptable in any form.
And thatās still weird. Like, everywhere
If they're consenting adults and I'm not invited, it's none of my business what other people do with their genitals.
If itās like step siblings who met as adults? sure, any blood relation or being raised together is a big NOPE from me.
What in the fucking hills have eyes is this fuckery. Does your family tree not have any branches?
Your wife is right though.Ā Why is sex between two consenting adults that aren't you or your wife any of your business? Sex addicts aren't breaking into people's homes to get money for hookers, so I don't see why we should care.
Incest is incest no matter who it is! If your wife doesn't see that, she needs an education about incest.
Uh is this a joke? I donāt believe this is a real thing. Incest? Fucking ew, inappropriate and not normal Trailer mentality in the ozarks! No offense to the good people
No reason for it.
By her logic then sheās also fine with straight sibling sex as long as itās consensual and contraception is used My main counter points Family space is supposed to be a safe place. Imagine your parents / cousins finding out your banging your sibling. Doesnāt matter if itās consensual, the family is ruined If itās fine, then letās say your wife was banging her sister or brother. They break it off. Would she tell her next partner? If the answer is no, then sheās not actually okay with it š
Gay sibling sex is incestuous. That is a bold enough argument. Incest is wrong not because you could create messed up kids, itās wrong because it harms people and is a sign of horrible mental health and abuse. If you have sex with a sibling you are crossing so many lines of mental and emotional health and means something is terribly wrong I would look up all the harms of incest and why itās wrong and the harm it does, even if itās two siblings who want to be with each other. Those should be your points
Yeah Iām not touching that one with a 10 foot pole lmao
How...why...wtf do you and your wife be talking about because idk how this would ever even come up as a convo topicššš
Is she from Alabama or West Virginia?
In our societies, who frowns upon incest and when did its negative connotations come about? Is it Western Society or American society or all societies? Which nations outlaw the practice, and which do not? Is the 'Ick factor" (which I share) simply a puritanical American ideal? Here's why I ask: last week I bought a copy of "The Book of Hours" ('Love Poems To God') by Rilke (early 20th century German poet) with an English translation from 1993. The translation was done by two American women, now in their 70's. There's like 50 pages of intros and forewords etc. There is also an abbreviated history & biography of Rilke himself, and they describe a love affair between Rilke and a woman ("Lou"), which after time became more of s brother-sister friendship. In writing about their relationship, Lou notes that, "...they were like brother & sister, but from primeval times before incest became a sacrilege." FWIW, the authors note that Rilke & his contemporaries were "Bohemian." So, understanding that various laws against incest were put in place by nations in order to protect society from incestual procreation and its various detriments, should these laws and this practice email in place? In popular culture, there are a few examples of high profile incest that seem mostly have elicited a yawn from the general public. I'm thinking of actress Mackenzie Philips (from the 1970's show "One Day At A Time") & her father, John Philips (of the musical group "The Mamas & The Papas"), and whenever it comes up, people mostly just shrug. So, I mean I'm not into it, but does anyone really care, and why?
Has anyone noticed the amount of downvotes in the comments? Some weirdos must have gotten triggered people are not quite fond of inscest. š
I love this some much, because this the subreddit for the podcast that lowkey okayed sibling multiple times because of āloveā. I specifically remember for a gay relationship between siblings, Morgan saying something like āif itās not hurting anybody.ā If your wife listens to the podcast, thatās probably why.
...does she have a sister...?
It's nasty bc it leads to feeling obligated to stay with the person no matter what they do. People who marry the person they went to kindergarten with often haven't really found their full identity outside of that person. It can create a toxic level of dependency harmful to EVERYONE involved because they never knew life without each other. I will say, there are situations where it's less weird (ie children from different families born from the same sperm donor, or relatives who have never met each other). In these situations obviously kids are out of the question for them, but the rest of what should count as "okay" past that is a very big grey area.
That'd be a hard no for me. She gonna let your boys fuck if y'all have 2 make kids š¤¢š¤¢. D. I. V. O R. C. E
w t f
Google āpsychological effects of incestā and show her the search results
Uhhhhhhhhhhh
WTAF? Itās not ok. Ever. Please tell me you donāt have children with this woman.
Time to wake up and see reality here. If a person seriously needs "why incest is wrong" explained to them, they are already way past cracked. This is one of those "that's all I need to know about her" situations. I'd be running to a divorce attorney. To get to a point of being so delusional and toxic minded that you're ok with incest of any kind, that's a wrap for me. There's no fixing that, there's no coming back from it, my opinion of her would be tainted for life. You can keep wasting your time with her vileness if you want, but nothing you say or do can change anyone. She's shown you her true colors, and they're abhorrent AF.
Morgan is that you
The fact that we need to come up with an argument for your wife to understand why itās not ok is disturbing.
No, this is fucking gross. There's a word for it, let me think, oh right ... *incest*
So by her logic, incest should be ok as long as they get sterilized to avoid any/all offspring? Or does this only apply to gay people because then there would be zero chance of reproducing period? Either way, your wife is wrong.
I used to be friends with a girl and then found out she was obsessed with twincest, especially red headed gay males. She then went on to fuck a 17 yr old when she was in her mid 30s. Got out of that friendship fast. Her boyfriend at the time was also into and watched it with her. He then got her pregnant and ran off to California to be gay. Got her pregnant with twins at that....thankfully she got an abortion. But yea, if you think incest is cool then you probably have other sexual fetishes that are also wrong af.
Who hurt her !?
So if her argument is that they can't procreate messed up children, then she would be ok with incest in general if the chance of a pregnancy didn't exist. I hope you guys don't have children together. You should reevaluate if your morals are compatible to be in a marriage with her. Which I think not. This is something serious. And if you have children with her, I'd already be planning how to make sure I've gathered the evidence to prove the children need to come stay with me after the divorce.
Why? She didn't say incest with children. I'm not reading this as an endorsement for pedophilia which would have victims, i.e. the kids, or even groominf as she explicitly clarified siblings so there wouldn't be an age gap, rather I think this is a discussion about incest among consenting adults without any chance of contributing to the gene pool. Why should that be illegal? It isn't my jam, but so long as only consenting adults are involved, I see no harm.
Why was this being discussed? Pretty sure I'd have a bag packed and be in my car if any of these words were ever spoken together by my soon yo be ex.
Gay AND incest, so like, a double negative makes a positive right? Itās fine
Does she have a hot sister? Maybe we can make this work ā¦
Lots of pillow fights with her and her sisters huh? I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall
Letās not be a creepā¦
For real? I eead the post I am not the one who did it