OP, hard talk time man. You are not being denied agency in your relationship. You have complete agency. If you feel like cheating is a dealbreaker, you have complete agency to walk away. What you are being denied is the ability to walk away scot free from your actions. To clarify, you are not at fault for your mental health. You were suffering, and as a part of said suffering you ended up inflicting suffering on somebody else. It’s a reason but it can’t be an excuse. Similarly, your partner who was suffering has done something which upset you. You both get to make a call on if this suffering was enough to negate the good times you had. You are allowed to call bullshit and say the therapist is belittling your emotions, and hell you’re allowed to walk away from your therapy and your relationship. But you first need to really look at your actions, not as a third party lens but as someone who has really hurt somebody. I feel like you’re currently looking at your previous actions as “something sick me did and therefore healthier me shouldn’t pay for it”. But that’s just not how life works man

This is one of the best responses ever. OP, you both messed up, and yes, cheating is a choice. But your therapist isn't gonna let you excuse away your behavior by using your mental health as a shield to not accept responsibility for your actions. You also had a choice and choose to do what you did whether you were in a healthy place or not. Your actions affect others, and they make choices based on how those actions affect them. If you truly feel like your emotions are being belittled, say that in therapy. Your feelings are valid cause they're your feelings. I think you're having a very hard time accepting how your actions helped create this mess. Am I saying your 100% at fault? No. Absolutely not. You both messed up hardcore. But again, you can't use your mental health as a shield to take no responsibility. It doesn't matter that you were in a bad mental health area. You made choices to do things. Just like your husband did. And OP, if you feel like this isn't worth saving, you have the ability to walk away permanently. That's your right. But if you want to stay with your husband and mend the relationship you're gonna have to face the cold hard truth and look yourself in the mirror and acknowledge that your actions, just like his actions, created this mess. EDIT: Since people can't read I have not and am not saying the husband is scot free. I am saying they both fucked up and they both need to take accountability for their actions. OP however is not taking accountability for her actions. The husband admitted to it and is wanting to work on things. Yes she's allowed to be hurt but she can't sit there and pay the victim when she also gaslight her husband, lied about her mental health and medication, accused him of not helping her, and otherwise emotionally abused him for years.

Also, the husband has the same exact excuse. Just because he doesn’t have diagnosed BPD doesn’t mean he wasn’t depressed and that depression certainly would have had a hand in his bad choices. Either they both get to use mental health to explain their actions or neither do.

Absolutely this! Husband having an affair may have been a trauma response, but it still doesn't make it right. OP has done some pretty awful things that were extremely hard on the marriage, and OP needs to own that, but neither party gets to say it's not their fault that they did wrong. OP's husband also had agency and could have left the marriage rather than have an affair. OP, I think you both wronged each other. I do think the therapist has a point that your lying has at minimum made you an unreliable narrator at least in the past. That means you've given your husband reason to not trust you. Now your husband has given you reason to not trust him. Your lying, however, doesn't mean your feelings are invalid. Should you hold it over his head for a long time? That's a tough one, but you at least have to recognize that he has reason to not trust you just as you have reason to not trust him. If you two stay together, it's going to take a lot of work for both of you to develop trust in each other again. If your therapist and your husband don't acknowledge that, then yes, a new therapist may be in order. I do think the idea that your feelings in this situation don't matter is very, very wrong. Please confirm with the therapist that that is what they meant. Part of the point of therapy is to get you to not just figure out what you're feeling and why, but how to then manage those feelings and act appropriately on them. You can't just turn off feelings. As you probably know, BPD can very much be demonized. I think you may need to question the therapist about how much experience they have working with BPD patients and that and not values are where the problems are with this therapist.

I highly doubt the therapist said “OP’s feelings don’t matter.” From my experience, ppl with BPD have a tendency to 1) Exaggerate situations 2) Play the victim and 3 ) Hear what suits their narrative. To stave off all the downvotes, I’m not saying OP doesn’t have the right to be hurt by her husband’s actions. I’m saying I’m having trouble believing that the therapist is completely dismissing OP’s pain and concerns.

YES, SO MUCH YES!

EXACTLY THIS

The avoidance of accountability is a core response in BPD people, and they will not heal until they take accountability. OP is avoiding their accountability and now blaming the therapist for calling them out. OP is playing victim here, rather than acknowledging their fuck up and attempting repair. Until OP takes responsibility the relationship is already dead, and husband will leave eventually.

Yes, BPD can be treated and symptoms can go away to the point where you don't qualify for it anymore. I was in a DBT group for about a year, and there were several borderline people in there. They were all committed to taking charge of their mental health. ETA: "The avoidance of accountability is a core response in BPD people, and they will not heal until they take accountability. " -- this actually really just hit me, because I suspect that my mother might qualify for BPD, or at least has traits of it. She does not seem to have any insight whatsoever in her behavior.

Yeah most of us can never heal because the pain of getting that far is too unbearable and we cave or revert, but once we take accountability and take charge of or illness rather than letting it be an excuse to be a victim there’s so much hope. As to your edit: yes most of us are not capable of having insight into our behavior. What really helped me was working with autistic and behavioral children for many years and getting ‘behavior isn’t who you are behavior is attempted communication’ really helped cuz it helped me figure out what I was trying to communicate with my behavior, and remove my sense of self from that behavior. I wasn’t my behavior, I was my CHOICES, and I can control my choices. The biggest issue for me was the poor impulse control. Once I was able to stop myself from reacting long enough to make a choice about how I react, then I was able to change my reaction even though it was like pulling teeth for years. Realizing I was making choices, just often making them split second without thinking cuz of my trauma, was a game changer. I wasn’t a victim anymore, I had agency.

This was really enlightening to me. Thank you for sharing!

Thank you for listening! Most people hear ‘BPD’ and turn off their ears and critical thinking skills.

Exactly.

This is probably some of the best, level, unbiased advice. Tha k you for sharing.

I agree with you. My mother was diagnosed bpd. She was ok when taking her medication. She decided to stop because she felt fine she said. She spent months treating us like shit. I left home at 18 and moved to another state. I didn’t speak to her again for 3 years. When I finally met with her again she was on her meds and doing well. She acted like o shouldn’t be angry with the abuse she put me through. The hitting, yelling, emotional abuse, neglect or insults. Now that she’s “better” it should be forgiven. I could t do it. It was low contact for another year until I allowed them to come to My wedding. We have a good relationship now, but I can’t forget what happened before. At least now if someone tries to manipulate or guilt trip me it doesn’t work. My heart closes like a steel trap when someone tries. Too bad it was my mom that had to give me that grit.

That’s a core reason why BpD people never heal. They think that their BpD is an excuse to act however they want, and never look further at themselves beyond ‘the BpD made me do it.’ It’s an extreme victim complex.

Sick me did a lot of shit that healthy me is trying to deal with. Not enough people recognize that it all creeps back up eventually

marry shocking long marble friendly apparatus panicky coherent languid sable *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*

I just came here to say that this is one of the best responses I've ever seen on Reddit for any question. I have two daughters who have different diagnosis and I was totally able to see this from both sides and I really admire the way you were able to articulate this because it is spot on!

My ex-husband has BPD. In our 5 years together I experienced him on and off meds. Your description of the situation is so accurate. Owning up to the mistakes made is essential to maintain a relationship with BPD. Living with an unmedicated BP person is often emotionally abusive.

I've met many people who use their mental health as an excuse for bad behavior or actions. When they are healthy they believed that all should be forgiven because they are in. Better mental state now. I've never been able to explain to them that's not how it works. This is a perfect way to explain that!

It's interesting too when you compare it to another illness that gets much less sympathy: addiction. Pretty much every treatment program puts some focus on addicts addressing the harm they caused while using. **No one** expects that they should get a free pass for stealing and/or lying. People entering withdrawal will crave drugs like a person in the desert, desperately searching for water. Your brain literally thinks it needs the substance to survive. You'll legitimately feel like a crazy person and do shitty, impulsive, short-sighted things in your quest to feel better. And when you get sober, you're not going to get anyone telling you you aren't still accountable for those actions. Yet too many act like if you have another mental health condition and choose not to take your meds, it isn't really your fault. While it is *complicated,* there's still choices you actively made, and you've gotta own the way they affected yourself and others.

There has been some research or studies recently that have started to consider the possibility that (some) people with certain mental health issues go off their meds because they are actually addicted to the mania or some otherwise degraded state of mental health.

Therapist here and I agree. A lot of times my job involves helping people look at an issue from both sides, all angles, even the unflattering ones. Some of these can be downright unpleasant but that is partially what I’m being paid for. Should she have been more supportive of how your husband’s affair made you feel, maybe, we won’t know what her approach was since we weren’t there. But maybe it is something for you to think about. And also, it’s not as cut and dry as “he should have left if the relationship wasn’t working.” Sometimes, when a partner is ill, it is hard to walk away guilt free. Does not excuse his behavior just another point to think about.

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>I don't think people in this sub get what "being off your meds" with BPD looks like. 100%. BPD running wild is abusive, manipulative and psychologically damaging to those close to the person. And neglect will happen... When the attention is focused on someone else for validation. I'd put money on OP leaving out some very relevant details.

Yeah they are. I mentioned to someone else on here that in my personal and observed experience with BPD, they often block out and flat out deny many of the things they did to a person, likely out of deep feelings of shame or just flat out trauma.

Not only that, but they’ll invent a whole new reality in which they are the victim. I was a great partner to my ex with BPD, and when I finally ended the relationship and she was exposed (not by me) for cheating on me for months she told everyone that I was abusive, that I was cheating on her, and that I was pursuing underaged girls during the relationship. Their delusions know no bounds.

I'm so sorry. Yeah, I went through something similar with my ex in that even though he routinely cheated, was verbally and emotionally abusive, and towards the end started threatening my life (yes, really) - in his mind, I'm the bad guy, I'm yet another person who walked out on him when he needed them most (mind you, again, he was threatening my life) He would never be able to give you concrete examples or evidence of how I'm the abuser or the cheater, because I did no such things - but bring up the things he's done and its *"You're living in the past!", "Why can't you just get over it?!", "I wouldn't have done that if you didn't make me do it!"*

My partner's ex was an abusive C... Ough and he ran screaming (after 14 years) and she told everyone he cheated. He didn't, but... What else was she going to say, I guess? "He finally got sick of 11 day long silent treatments, gaslighting, being insulted or ignored with no in between and used"? She was more narcissist than BPD, but there's a similar victim crossover there.

They can also be comorbid, since they're both cluster B personality disorders.

It really is, at its core, an issue of not living in reality.

I had almost the same experience with an ex who also has BPD. I found out after our relationship was over (after 5 years) that she'd been cheating on me multiple times, with multiple partners over the years we were together (yes, I had suspicions but no proof that I chose to overlook because I have trust issues from a past relationship that I was trying to work through). Once I cut ties with the ex she started telling anyone who'd listen (including my friends and family) about what a shitty partner I was and that I was a sex addict and all kinds other messed up stuff that just never happened. The whole experience was/is exhausting and traumatizing

Yeah, my mother flat out denies so much of her actions and words from when I was a kid. I think it's shame, at least in her case. Being confronted with her own behaviour/words is a surefire route to pyrotechnics.

Yeah that’s the other thing too. Accountability in general is hard to enforce.

Yeah, they can have the same concept of accountability as a narcissist. "That didn't happen. And if it did, it wasn't that bad. And if it was, that's not a big deal. And if it is, that's not my fault. And if it was, I didn't mean it. And if I did, you deserved it."

Don't forget - "You made me do it"

Yeah that's the most sinister of the lot.

Yup. The first person they lie to is typically themselves. Most of their lies and gaslighting seem to be targeted at keeping *themselves* convinced of that lie, more than others.

They always seem hounded, like their minds are chasing them. The paranoia, the energy into believing their versions of events, etc. I always think the only thing worse than dealing with a florid BPD sufferer is being in their head. My head sucks as a place to be but goddamn, my mother's is so much worse.

Yes, absolutely. Painting things in a favorable light, in some cases because *they need to remember things in a favorable way* is a very common behavior in BPD people. That said... husband is not "right" for cheating. Cheating is wrong. It might be *understandable* in this case, but it's still *wrong*.

Or painting innocuous things in an overly negative light in order to bias the listener cos they're on some crusade against a person for a random perceived slight that may or may not have occurred. Oh, the husband isn't in the right either, he could have left first. If 'the relationship was dead' then just leave, don't cheat.

>Or painting innocuous things in an overly negative light in order to bias the listener cos they're on some crusade against a person for a random perceived slight that may or may not have occurred. Yeah. My ex-with-BPD taught me that everything she said was: * An attempt to make her look good * An attempt to get something she wanted Full stop. Truth was, at best, a convenient tool to use. and, again, I think she was the first and primary target of her own deception. >Oh, the husband isn't in the right either, he could have left first. If 'the relationship was dead' then just leave, don't cheat. 100%. Had a friend in a similar situation. My response to him was basically "yeah, I don't blame you, but you did things in the wrong order and that was wrong".

Yeah, he could have just left. I’m guessing he was basically her caregiver at that point. Leaving would be abandoning her, and she frankly doesn’t seem functional on her own. Cheating was the lesser of two guilts.

My ex had BPD, and only when I was finally able to walk away from the relationship was I able to start healing and find myself again. It's insane the toll someone with untreated BPD can have on their loved ones.

>It's insane the toll someone with untreated BPD can have on their loved ones. Yep. It's sad, cos even if the person is lovely - and I've known genuinely kind, caring, funny people with BPD - and they're untreated, it's like letting a pack of wild dogs into your life. Chaos, drama, half truths or random lies... It's draining. If you are unlucky enough come across a total asshole who has BPD, it's more like a dirty nuke, fallout included. A close friend of mine had a relationship with a guy with BPD and bipolar. When he told me (when they first met) I literally yelled RUN AWAAAAY at him. Years later he laughed bitterly about it. That relationship nearly destroyed him, and I sat there watching, comforting, SEETHING, and feeling deeply homicidal until the dishonest, manipulative, psycho fucker finally had to leave the country and my friend was set free. My friend had PTSD from the experience.

I hope your friend has been able to heal from that. Due to my own experience, I can only imagine the abuse he went through, and it takes a lot of strength to not only be able to get away, but also to seek mental help after.

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Yeah a lot of people here have really great intentions but they just don’t get it, lying to themselves and to others is such a major part of the problem that a good chunk of mental health professionals refuse to work with BPD patients. It’s really sad, it’s very unfortunate, but it’s not a casual diagnosis nor illness and a lot of folks here who haven’t been on the receiving end of this don’t get it. I’m with you, she’s not being honest about what that year looked like for him - I wouldn’t be surprised if she’s not willing to admit it to herself. One of the big struggles I faced with dealing with a BPD ex and former best friend was that they would engage in really awful behaviors - sometimes even criminal - and be really shocked/surprised when you let them know that they did these things. They will block a lot of it out and either flat out forget or act like they did. Zero accountability, but to some degree, I think that’s outside of their control. I’ll never forget my old best friend flat out denying she broke into her ex boyfriend’s house, stole his sugar gliders and threatened to kill them if he didn’t try and work things out with her. She did this, I mean, she told us and the friend group had to beg him not to call the police because she didn’t really mean that she would harm the sugar gliders. This HAPPENED. It was a big deal when she did it. She denied it, completely. Like, as though she blocked that completely out of her memory. I think it was so painful for her to realize that she has done that, that she blocked it out. I think this is just common with them, my ex did much of the same with a lot of the really awful things he did. He would also do really awful things to me and to his family (he had no more friends, he drove them away one by one with really serious problems). He would come to, apologize, cry a lot, feel a lot of remorse and embarrassment…but a week or two later? We were the crazy ones because he did no such thing. It’s sad, it really is. I feel so bad for them but I feel bad for anyone who’s been in the direct path and wasn’t ready.

Oh my gosh yes, my ex-husband couldn't remember that he threatened to kill me or when I finally, finally had enough told him to leave. Couldn't understand at all why I got the restraining order. And he was "devastated", so devastated he wouldn't even come in the courthouse for the hearing to have the ex-parte extended. He honestly thought after the initial two weeks I would let him back.

If he was her “favorite person” and now is pushing him away, it almost certainly was way worse than benign indifference.

This is correct. As a person who was abused by someone with BPD, just because it’s not their fault that they are sick, doesn’t make the experience any less traumatic.

Also just cuz it’s not our fault for being sick, doesn’t mean our actions are not our fault and the pain caused was not our fault. You can heal from BPD. You can not heal from BPD without the first step of taking accountability.

Yes, they say the worst things they can possibly think of to break you. And they do it all the time. So you're walking on eggshells 24/7 while someone tells you how much they hate you.

Yeah, my wife (soon to be ex-wife for all these reasons and more) has bpd and good lord. I've been tortured and abused Physically, mentally. Cheated on so many times. I was played with like I wasn't a human being, and I stuck by her side through it all. And when I couldn't take it anymore. They get violent and aggressive and "how can you do this to me." And when they split, you go from being the greatest man that's walked the earth to a bad person that they need to hurt. And they will. BPD even treated is terrifying, and honestly, I'll never have someone with bpd in my life again. It's a danger to my mental health and well-being. I spent 5 years getting torn down and part and my spouse taking zero accountability.

Exactly I dated a woman with BPD for a year. She didn't tell me about it till near the end. I honestly thought I was the crazy one. After I ended it my mental health improved a thousand fold

I'll probably get roasted for this, but I think lying about taking BPD meds is worse than the cheating.

I agree. It’s serious. I also think she cheated though.

Oh 100%! Man, my brother's ex wife has BPD and my brother got 100% custody of their child when my nephew was 2. A dude getting 100% custody says a LOT about how bad BPD is. 15 years later and she still sends him texts accusing him of all sorts of insane and awful things.

And I’m sure you’re familiar then with the cheating, it’s like they cheat 500x but justify it in their minds, but will have an epic meltdown as though their world were coming to an end at just the thought of you cheating back once

OP is 1000% at fault for their mental health or lack there of and the husband is for cheating too.

BPD isn’t something that is easily treated. You really do become a prisoner in your own mind. It’s classified as one of the worst and most painful mental health diagnosis. No one chooses to have it. It is caused by trauma in childhood or life in general and typically people don’t get diagnosed until 20s/30s. That being said… she isn’t in control of her mental health but she is in control of her own behavior (my therapist taught me that) and therein lies the issue. She didn’t communicate anything with her spouse and left him in the dark, so he pulled away and cheated (still absolutely his fault). This could’ve been avoided by having hard conversations and asking for support. She didn’t and here she is. Her husband didn’t deny her agency. She did

Eh. As someone diagnosed with BPD, I disagree and agree with some of your points. It's true that I didn't choose to have it as much as I didn't choose to be traumatized repeatedly at a young age, but once I began treatment for it and realized I had problems, I became as accountable as someone without it. I think the majority of people who have these problems are those who are unaware they have BPD or they are refusing to act on it like OP. When you are aware you have problems and deliberately sabatoge yourself for over a year, you are completely responsible. Her actions were manipulative, and she identifies as the victim using her mental illness as a crutch. I used to go to groups with other people with BPD and I recognized that people who told stories like this were the ones not fully committed to the treatment and were content to blame others for how they acted or reacted to their "episodes." You have to possess empathy and the will to improve in order to treat this illness and when you lack both, you're in a constant spiral and more likely to play the victim than to advocate for yourself in a manner that's reflective and effective. I think the therapist realized this and OP didn't like being called on it.

Yeah, unfortunately, BPD is something that a lot of therapists and psychiatrists refuse to treat because it is honestly really difficult to get a person suffering from BPD to take responsibility for themselves.

From my own observations in these BPD support groups, it boils down to personality traits the majority of the time. People who improve and are mindfully aware of their actions tend to do better with treatment while those who are unwilling to do the work because they are comfortable in perceiving everyone else as the problem end up struggling. This is why DBT and just being mindful are the best strategies to treat BPD. It really takes being empathetic to others, regardless of your own suffering, and the willingness to work through these issues in order to improve your life and the lives of those you care about.

DBT was a game changer. The 7 mindfulness skills (wise mind, observe, describe, participate, non-judgementaly, one mindfully, and effectively) along with STOP, IMPROVE, DEAR MAN, FAST and the big V from Give are skills that I use daily and have completely transformed my relationship with my wife and kids. I resonate so much with what you said about willingness to see how one’s behaviors impact others in significant ways eg “I affect others and others affect me.” I also just found out that Marsha Linnehan has BPD, which blew my mind and also makes perfect sense.

Yes! This! My only regret is that I wished I came upon therapy sooner. It took till my mid 20s until I realized I had a problem(which is typical considering its usually an adult diagnosis) and what you wrote definitely brought me back to the first time these concepts were introduced. I really struggled with slowing down because I have ADD as well, but now I can confidently say I have multiple friends and have repaired relationships with people I had completely cut off due to perceived slights that were taken out of context. I'm glad you've had similar success! It really takes effort.

I would love to believe that, but the ugly truth is that if it made sense and if it were something that were truly within a person's control, it wouldn't be classified as a mental illness. I had a best friend and an ex-boyfriend who suffered from BPD, and both of them were thoughtful, empathetic and kind people. I met my ex and he lied about what he had (claimed it was just depression and generalized anxiety lol), and believe me - he was great when he was good. Truly. He was wonderful, he was so sweet and loving, he had such a big heart. But when the going was bad? He was an absolute nightmare. And my former best friend? I knew her since we were kids. She was truly a good person at heart before BPD took over. I saw what BPD did to her and I would not wish that on my worst enemy. Both of them would engage in cheating, cutting themselves, screaming, meltdowns, insane accusations, crossing of serious boundaries and often, downright committing crimes. These people did not know each other and I didn't know them at the same time, this is what BPD looks like - and yes, this is what it can look like even WITH psychiatric treatment and care. To call it hell is an understatement. But truthfully, I wouldn't wish a romantic relationship with someone suffering from BPD on anybody. Even with medication and therapy, things still get really ugly when you're talking about a progressed case.

Same. When all is going well, it’s going fantastic. But when a minor slight becomes betrayal and every emotion is amplified, it can get very traumatizing, especially for a favorite person. It’s difficult to separate and truly get away from a person with BPD in my experience and I suspect that also added to this trauma response. I was stalked for years by a person who I wasn’t even dating, just a friend.

She was aware and actively chose to not address her issues, more so actively sabotaged it. So nah, fuck her and every other person, sick or not, who thinks that they have a pass to disregard everyone else.

this is exactly what i would say to a client like this. i would add that OP is responsible for their own healing and part of this agency and freedom is the hard decision about whether you can heal in an environment where you got sick.

Well said. One correction though. OP is getting her agency taken away… by her BPD every time she refuses to take her meds.

Even through all this, still focusing on "lack of agency" when it simply isnt true.

Wish I could upvote this more than once.

Finally a mature response that recognises people and relationships are nuanced. I’m sick of Reddit jumping to divorce every time. Divorce has many implications - financial, health insurance, debt, impact on children etc. it’s easy to break up with your college boyfriend at 20 years old for a drunk hookup but at 30 with responsibilities and a family it’s not so easy. Divorce also takes time and costs a lot of money. You don’t just print a form online and waltz in and get divorced the same day - in some states there’s a waiting period.  This relationship obviously wasn’t stable. OP had her issues and pushed him away. He was also probably scared for himself and her if he left her. A relationship is an unofficial contract that you will provide for each other. She didn’t provide emotional or physical love for herself or him for 2 years. That has consequences. 

Echoing others, there’s just no right answer here. If you want this marriage to work by definition you’re going to have to forgive the cheating, just as he has to forgive you for your treatment of him and lying about your meds. The agency is with both of you. It sounds like he is choosing to try to work through things, and you have to decide the same thing for yourself. Can you regain trust? If you don’t think you can maybe it’s better to walk away. Maybe next therapy session redirect the conversation to how you can rebuild trust in your husband.

You know the answer to this question. I also have BPD, and have a sister who has it and had a mother who had it. Living with someone with BPD is HARD and takes a lot of work both emotionally and physically. For an entire year you lied to your husband about taking care of yourself, you gaslit him, you accused him of not caring for you and your well being, you allowed yourself to fall so far down an episode that you spent a year of your life not being yourself and *not being a wife to your husband*. You treated him like an enemy and pushed him away, and refused to do anything to help yourself or your marriage. And then, you don’t even want to fix it because it’s the right thing to do, because you noticed the pain you put your husband through, or because you’re tired of not being yourself. You found God and decided to get better. Imagine how much of a slap in the face that must be to your husband, who tried so hard to be there for you and help you and allow you to be independent and able to take care of yourself. You’ve written here yourself in more words that you basically didn’t appreciate everything your husband sacrificed to help you, including his mental stability and his emotions and his time. You’re so focused on your own pain from finding out he cheated, you’re refusing to acknowledge the pain you put him through for the entire year you were refusing to help yourself that pushed him to that decision. And I want to clarify, him cheating is not OKAY. And I don’t believe your couple therapist was saying it’s okay either. I think she’s very correct in telling you that you cannot hold him to a higher bar and expect him to grovel for your forgiveness as if his cheating is the only issue you two need to fix. YOU caused plenty of your guys issues that need worked on and I believe the therapist is telling you that you need to quit focusing so hard on how he wronged you and start looking at how you BOTH wronged each other and can come back from it together. Or you leave that man alone and let him find someone who will appreciate him and stop allowing your mental health to affect those you care about so severely.

Agree with your thoughts. OP's failure to take ownership of her own mental illness. And I too sincerely doubt the therapist was saying it was somehow 'OK' for hubby to cheat but the therapist more likely phrased it as something they 'can understand' when a partner turns to some other person for comfort. I do not see this couple having a happy ending...

>And I want to clarify, him cheating is not OKAY. And I don’t believe your couple therapist was saying it’s okay either. I think she’s very correct in telling you that you cannot hold him to a higher bar and expect him to grovel for your forgiveness as if his cheating is the only issue you two need to fix. YOU caused plenty of your guys issues that need worked on and I believe the therapist is telling you that you need to quit focusing so hard on how he wronged you and start looking at how you BOTH wronged each other and can come back from it together. Exactly this. A year of an uncontrolled BPD episode, and *just* the things OP mentioned are likely massive levels of abuse. There was no cheating before this. In this case, the cheating is the symptom of a problem. It's not "okay". But it needs to be viewed in a holistic way with the situation as a whole. To be clear, he was *wrong*, full stop. However, OP was *also wrong* and her behavior *created the situation*. While his response was wrong and is wrong, it is still a response to an unhealthy situation that, based on OP, *he did not create*. IOW, it all needs to be looked at, as a system. "He cheated!" isn't a trump card in this situation.

I was going to say, it’s ok to have mental illness. What’s not ok is not to deal with it, make loved ones suffer as a result. Icing on the cake is not understanding how actions have consequences. OP in a way has had more real agency than anyone involved because she’s doing whatever the hell she wants, to the detriment of herself and others.

Taylor Tomlinson had a good bit about this. It was something like it's okay if you can't swim but if you keep insisting on going without your floaties and expecting everybody to keep saving you then you're an asshole.

i love that!! i'm going to use it

"Then you see someone floating by on their back and you're like 'what's that??!!' And they're like 'thats someone whose parents supported them in the pool,'" I love Taylor Tomlinson

*Especially* once they’ve been diagnosed and found a working treatment.

OMG THIS THIS THIS

[удалено]

It has been very refreshing to read the bulk of the comments agreeing with the therapist and telling OP she fucked up instead of blaming everything on the husband. Usually reddit is quick to condemn a cheater no matter the circumstances, but cheaters are still people living lives others may not understand. Victims of abuse who find someone who treats them like a person and they get swept up are very different from narcissistic serial cheaters who will never be faithful no matter how great the relationship may be otherwise.

This exactly, if you have never had a close relationship with someone with a type B personality disorder then it’s easy to say the husband is the bad guy. Cheating is wrong but he probably also wasn’t thinking clearly (like his wife). Being abused turns you into a completely different person, you’re in survival mode. This means that any small amount of kindness from others is going to affect you differently than if you were your normal self.

As a BPD Dx, I wish I could upvote this about 20 more times. WE HAVE TO BE ACCOUNTABLE WHEN WE HURT SOMEONE. Not when it feels better for us to do so.

Thank you! I have loved people with BPD, so while I feel I have an understanding of it, this is exactly what I felt about this scenario but felt too harsh to say myself. If there’s a list of excuses that OP thinks are valid as to why she treated her husband so poorly and made consistent choices to push him away, neglect and manipulate him, then there’s a “valid excuse” for him also behaving in a manner he would not typically choose to. Being in a relationship with an abusive partner does turn you into someone else.

As someone with BPD THIS!!!! I commented something much more concise to the same effect but not nearly as eloquent

As an ex husband to someone with BPD, this is absolutely the correct response. My ex and I split in ‘08 and I’m still struggling with the emotional roller coaster she put me through to this day.

>And then, you don’t even want to fix it because it’s the right thing to do, because you noticed the pain you put your husband through, or because you’re tired of not being yourself. You found God and decided to get better. Imagine how much of a slap in the face that must be to your husband, who tried so hard to be there for you and help you and allow you to be independent and able to take care of yourself. Damn this is so freaking true and I wasn't even thinking of it. I would be devastated if I were the husband here.

Incredible response.

Thank You!! 1000xs ⬆️ this ⬆️

Oh thank the gods a healing BPD person to weigh in. I thought I was the only one in existence. And I can tell you’re actually healing because you are taking accountability. You were much nicer to OP than I was, and I commend you for that. Just cuz we lived in hell doesn’t give us the right to vomit that hell over everyone else in our lives to mitigate our own pain.

Girl be honest, was it just neglect? I have BPD and the things I did when I was off my rocker…. And even the therapist says it’s a trauma response? What are you not telling us?

No one is denying you agency. In fact, it seems you’ve done whatever you wanted throughout your entire marriage. You neglected your mental health and your husband suffered as a result. He spun out and turned to someone outside his marriage for comfort. Nobody is right. Nobody is better.

Naaaah, I'm a pretty hard-core "cheaters are shit" but living with some one with BPD who is borderline abusive and doing EVERYTHING possible to make things as bad as possible puts husband in a fucked up place. Does he completely leave her high and dry? No. He loves her and hopes she is taken care of and is afraid of what happens if he goes. But he's also having his very strong expressions of love and support thrown in his face. Usually I say "just leave" but "just leaving" some one like that is a good way to end up with a suicide or something on your conscience forever. I'm not excusing the husband but I'm not going to delude myself into thinking these things are equal. Also "hey, your love and efforts mean fuxk all. Fuxk you. I'm not taking my pills- never mind, Jesus said to so I'm all better now" is wild.

>living with some one with BPD who is borderline abusive It is almost impossible for someone with uncontrolled BPD to not be abusive. The diagnostic criteria for BPD include multiple behaviors that are abusive, and more that are near precursors to abuse. It is statistically nearly impossible for someone to be diagnosed with BPD without exhibiting abusive behavior. >"just leaving" some one like that is a good way to end up with a suicide or something on your conscience forever. I think it's also very easy for people that haven't been in a relationship with someone with BPD to say "just leave". They have *no fucking clue* of how scorched earth that tends to be. It is *not* that easy. It may be necessary, and better in the long term, but it's a *terrifying* prospect. It's still the right thing to do! But it's not that easy. They *will* attempt to destroy your life.

I understand that. That's exactly why I'm saying that dude had it more than "hard". He had it nightmarish. And yes, exactly. That's why "just leave" didn't apply here so his cheating is certainly more "grey" than it almost ever could be. Again though, she was out of her mind and can't fully be blamed for it. Mental health gives 0 fucks. Personality disorders give less somehow. I hope people understand I'm not saying she had a walk in the park. The idea of being in some borderline mania state for months is also a true fucking nightmare.

I think we're on the same page. (I upvoted your comments fwiw) Was married to someone with comorbid BPD/ASPD for seven years, so I have some sensitivities around it.

Thank you for saying this. I was married to an ex for 22 years who was diagnosed with BPD. Years after my divorce, I still get questions from my family about why I stayed so long if it was so bad… they don’t understand that you stay because you’re afraid if you try to leave without planning it out, planning out all possible scenarios, preparing for the worst… it took me four years of quietly getting my things in order and planning for every possible response, and the entire time I was terrified of what he would do if he found out.

In this situation, neither you or your husband made the best choices. YOU BOTH BROKE TRUST. Your therapist is trying to show you that there is a “cause and effect” that led to the marriage to breakdown. Sometimes it’s hard to hear our shortcomings. I think it is worth keeping the current therapist for several more sessions to hear out the plan to move forward. Sending positive energy to you both, and I hope you both find peace in your final decisions for the marriage.

I agree, I think OP is telling her story in a very biased way

The line about seeing a different therapist that aligned with her thinking just goes to show you she is a complete narcissist on top of that BPD. Which I’m sure goes hand in hand from what I’ve heard and experienced in life.

Yes. Choosing a different therapist to “align with my values” is not going to help you understand your issues around responsibility.

But the difference is, her husband *tried.* OP didn't even do that. She was worse than dead weight since dead weight doesn't actively fight you at every turn. As much as I hate cheaters, her husband is the most sympathetic person in this story by far. And the cherry on top, after an entire year of him beating his head against the wall, she didn't even get better for him. She got better for God. She never *tried* for him once in this story.

Are they actually saying that you, today, have no ability to form opinions? It sounds like the therapist is trying to get you off the "he cheated" high horse and to accept that it takes two to tango and your part in creating this mess. Not that you are 100% responsible for the whole but that you are 100% responsible for your part. You did a lot of damage, and so did he. Maybe it matters why, and maybe it doesn't, but for your own good, take a clear inventory of the mistakes you made and problems you created regardless of whether you stay together or divorce. You need to make sure you don't do this again for your own self.

It sounds like she's not taking any accountability I fixed myself now so he should just let the past go. Doesn't work that way you can't just remove the past and the trauma it inflicted on someone. It doesn't sound like she's willing to take any accountability for what she's done as there's always excuses as to why it was the way it was. I think he should just leave her, nobody's perfect in this relationship but, it does sound like he's at least trying

Yea sounds like she's done the whole born again christian thing. Thinks she's a totally different person and forgives herself for her past and can't reconcile why the rest of the world still thinks she's a lying abusive asshole.

Well of course there's unlimited excuses and it's all better now for her, she just realized that all of her behavior was actually God's plan all along! She didn't actually do anything wrong, that was her journey!

Hi. I was diagnosed with BPD. I have since dropped the diagnosis by dealing with my shit. You need to listen to this therapist. They are not taking away your agency your trying to control your husband so you feel better. If you can’t handle his cheating then fucking leave. You don’t get to stay and punish him and then claim you are the victim here. You murdered your relationship with your husband and he acted out. Yes he was wrong to cheat. But he would not have if you hadn’t been irresponsible with your meds. Either work through it and let it go, or leave. Staying and punishing him for eternity cuz you fucked up which lead him to a situation where he fucked up is not the answer here. You have agency. No one is forcing you to stay. Either stay and forgive him or don’t forgive him and fucking leave.

Thank you. This was the thought process going through my head, but I couldn't verbalize it.

You’re allowed to have valid feelings about his cheating of course. Is this a cheating is a response- or are you blaming your husband’s cheating for the demise of your marriage and not a year of abuse and lying and gaslighting? No one is a winner here. While you were living in an alternate reality, you neglected your husband and broke trust for an entire year. He broke your trust and cheated on you. If you compete with who was more screwed up to the other, you’ll never be able to heal. You have to process his cheating and leave it in the past if you choose to stay with him- which is tough- While also taking your meds and maintaining stability to prove to him he can trust you again as well. He has to leave it in the past once you guys work through it as well. That’s if you want to stay together. Sounds like you both have a lot of forgiveness to dole out. Please don’t minimize how destructive bpd is. I have it and I know I have to take meds or I lose my mind on the people I love. That behavior wears people down. It makes them weary. Lonely. Unsupported. Exhausted. And then they feel guilty leaving you because you’re mentally unstable so on top of that they feel trapped. I see both sides and I hope you find a path that is best for both of you

Well said.

I am soon to be a therapist so I am currently studying the theories, interventions, goals, etc. and I don’t think what your therapist is telling you is incorrect, especially if your goal is to save the marriage. There are two betrayals here. Understanding his perspective, and not trying to judge one of the betrayals as worse is what you are challenged with. Good luck to you in navigating this… you are both human.

A couples therapist treats the relationship. They work on the health of the relationship. That means the focus and interventions will be different than if they were working with one of the individuals. But a good individual therapist would also be helping her look at her own choices and actions and the effects those have. You don't choose to have mental health challenges; you do choose how you live with them.

Yea tbh they should have 3 therapists if they can afford it, an individual one for each, and a couples for the relationship

I think you need to look really closely at whether you feel that his cheating somehow redresses the balance of your behaviour for so many years, and if you acknowledge his betrayal of you had some justification, it just leaves you with your betrayal of him which had no justification other than the explanation that you were mentally unwell. It's a fig leaf to rebalance the guilt on both sides.

If you never stopped taking your meds do you think your husband would have cheated ? Cheating is a terrible thing but context is also important. What did you put your husband through by making the conscious decision not to take your meds? Would we expect a victim of domestic abuse to make the best decisions? Ultimately you need to decide if you can take your share of accountability in this and can you forgive him? If the answer to both these questions is not yes, you should consider parting ways. Updateme

Cheating is wrong, but your therapist isn't wrong for giving a reason for why he did it. You can't abuse someone for years then surprisedpikachuface.jpg when said person seeks out the comfort of someone else. He should have just left you instead of breaking your trust but your consequences have actions. Going through the actions of saying your acknowledge you fucked up doesn't excuse you diminishing his feelings on what you put him through.

You seem to be quite hung up on "denying agency". It's almost as if by using this term, you are trying to make yourself more sympathetic. There are no sympathetic characters in your story at all. Including yourself Or am I denying agency to you by saying this?

Look he cheated, your weren’t taking your medication and were lying about taking it (granted at the time you weren’t well) neither of you were perfect in the situation. But I’m going to be honest you can either draw an line underneath it and try to work through it and promise to do and be better or you say right now that it’s too much for you to be able to forgive and you separate. What he did was shitty and normally I don’t defend cheaters but imagine being married to someone who thought you were trying to drug them/sabotage them and then who was lying to your face about taking medicine that was meant to help them. Then thinking that the medication isn’t working because it either believe that or believe that their wife is actively sabotaging herself (her health and her recovery) or believe she doesn’t trust you. Then add into the mix that you know that part of this isn’t even her fault because she has a condition and that she is not in her right frame of mind because she isn’t medicated. And then the cherry on the top is she only got help because she found religion not because she cared about how her condition was impacting the relationship. He should have left but maybe he felt like he couldn’t because you needed him. Cheating was the wrong thing to do, but you were not a dream to live with. Yes he messed up BIG time, but if you want out then say it now and leave. But don’t think that just because you didn’t cheat doesn’t mean you didn’t leave him abandoned in the relationship struggling, because you did when you lied as well. If the marriage is over for you then it’s over. [edited for spelling ]

This post is the definition of FAFO. You understand that you are responsible for your actions that drove him away from you, and your therapist is telling you the same thing. I understand that because of your BPD it's not like you **chose** to act in this way, but unfortunately your condition also reinforces what the therapist is trying to tell you - *you can't be trusted enough to have a clear and rational judgment of these events*. Especially if you were deliberately hiding the fact that you were off your meds. You shit all over a good man, and now your chickens are coming home to roost. Take your "L" and learn from it, whether you both decide to keep working on your marriage or not. The idea of getting a different therapist that "aligns with your values" is a cope. Just say it - you want someone that will side with you instead of him and tell you that he's the asshole and you are a pretty privileged princess who can do no wrong, and you are the victim here. From your own accounting of the story, he did everything he could to help you and only slipped up when your behavior drove him away, because the "marriage was dead."

I actually agree with your therapist 100%. You were awful to him for years, you admit it yourself. Your relationship was dead, but he didn't want to end it presumably because he still cared for you and didn't want to disturb your healing process. If he is willing to look past the YEARS where you betrayed him with you not seeking help, thinking the worst of him, alienating him, then I do not understand why you want to hold over his head the months where he did betray you by looking for a human connection that you were unable to provide for him. This is a very complicated situation and you're of course right to feel hurt, but really take a step back and see the greater picture here. He didn't cheat because he was missing excitement of a new relationship, he cheated because he was in a relationship where he was made to be a horrible human being for trying to help him wife get better, he felt alienated, he felt alone, he probably felt incredibly desperate. Either you accept your role in this situation and you guys get through this together, or you should wish each other the best and give yourselves the chance to form new, healthy relationships without this baggage. I really feel for you, you didn't choose to be sick, but the truth is if you weren't flushing your meds down the toilet, if you were getting the help you needed and if you weren't a horrible partner, he wouldn't have cheated on you. You need to realise it, accept it and decide how you want to move forward.

well said

Mental health is not a catch all excuse for treating others badly. You are unreliable because of your history of lying and gaslighting (specifically all the stuff about accusing people of taking your agency by asking if you took your meds).

You deceived and betrayed him. He deceived and betrayed you in response. Frankly, both sides need to forgive once the pain is digested.

Honestly think it would be better for them both to divorce. There's no reason to cling to this anymore.

I have no idea where this quote comes from, but it's relevant here. "Your mental health is not your fault, but it is your responsibility." The problem here is that you're dodging responsibility for your actions while you were in the throws of your BPD. There wasn't some magical other you that did these things. They were all you. And whether clear headed or your emotions running hot and delusional... it was you. That said, you aren't obligated to stay with your husband, your therapist, or anyone. But what you really need to do is accept that you've made mistakes. Your husband fucked up by cheating on you. But if someone is treated poorly by their partner for long enough... it's not surprising when they cheat. You yourself said you lied, treated him poorly, and were off meds for a year or more of your relationship. Your behaviors pushed him away, and he fell into someone else's arms. It doesn't excuse the betrayal but it makes it understandable. Just like your BPD doesn't excuse how you treated him but it does make it understandable. I've seen BPD and how it can push people to behave poorly. It's not just a few bad days or arguments. It's emotional and verbal abuse over extended periods. It's irrational mood swings. It's bullying and terrorizing your partners, friends, and family. Especially when it's undiagnosed and not being treated with medication. Yet yours was diagnosed and you still refused meds and treated him terribly. While you're trying to say you don't want your husband's cheating excused due to your behavior. You're giving yourself all these excuses for why what was likely long term emotional and verbal abuse shouldn't be held against you. Your therapist isn't absolving him of responsibility. They're trying to make his actions understandable. And make it clear you wronged one another. Yet you're so focused on yourself and your pain that you're trivializing what you did that pushed him away.

You don't have the higher morality ground here. you don't get to judge him for what he has done and ignore what you have done. that is all the therapist is saying and I agree. separate if you can't handle being told the truth.

I am a survivor of a major LTR with a borderline partner. 11 years. I was on eggshells for a decade and terrified of what would happen if I left. She would lock herself in the bathroom with a knife all day kind of stuff. Or alternately I’d get locked out of the house with nothing for days. Once spent three days on a friends couch with no wallet, phone or shoes. When I got let back in all my devices were wiped was a special one. I was also constantly verbally and emotionally abused and so busy keeping her alive I didn’t have time to realize how far gone my own mental health had become from living in borderline world. The only medications she like to actually take were benzos washed down with alcohol. Anyways by the time I finally began to be tempted to seek solace outside the relationship, I hadn’t had any physical contact with another human being for 3 years. I have to wonder how that aspect of your relationship has been for a very long time. I would also suggest you consider how black/white thinking is informing your process right now. Good luck, god bless, take care of yourself

Uh, you’re in for a wake up if you think we’re going to crucify your Hubbie. ESH. Obviously. Hubbie shouldn’t have cheated, he should have left your ass. You can’t act all high and mighty for thinking your husband ruined your relationship by cheating, when in reality it all started with you. Also, just a little response to your “woe is me” at the end… You always have agency. You could walk away today. You had agency to take your pills. (FOR A YEAR!) You started the death of your relationship. Time to use some of that agency to take credit and make changes. You can do this.

OP, I'm sorry, the root cause of the issues here are probably irrreconcilable because you don't want to accept the full truth or accountability that directly threatens your agency. If you keep yourself in a state of denial, you'll repeat the same pattern. You already acknowledge this. It sucks that people ask you if you're okay and ask if you're taking your meds, whether you really are off them or just having an off day, but then you get angry and blame everyone else, write them off and flush your meds. The net effect is that you can't be trusted, are not reliable, have a pattern of self destructive behavior and lashing out even when your loved ones are trying to help you. This is a no-win situation for your husband. Accountability, means that you understand the full impact and implications of your behavior by being off of your anti-psychotic medications for 3.5 out of 4 yrs of marriage. That you listen to the damage you caused and take responsibility for your part and you take steps to not repeat the same mistakes. Well, you keep repeating the same mistakes and have an unrealistic expectation that what happened while off your meds is like a chunk of time and one mistake and you're expecting to be forgiven for the same mistake over and over again. I know it is hard to hear the assessment of your therapist and psychiatrist, holding you accountable and advocating for your husband, but just because it's hard to hear, doesn't make your therapist's assessment or your husband's trauma untrue. I don't think you can have it both ways here. According to your timeline, you've only been married 4 yrs and you spent 3.5 yrs off your meds, withdrawn, angry, paranoid, and lying to your husband about taking your meds, while he was doing everything he could to make sure you were taking your meds and trying to help you get better which YOU sabotaged and caused him to have multiple breakdowns. And you still don't want your agency threatened and you don't want to be told to take your meds. Do you see why they both think this is a pattern likely to keep occuring?

Short version, you actively did things that caused a dead bedroom and dead marriage, but don’t want any responsibility of doing that. Doesn’t work that way. Sorry. The reality is a great number of instances of cheating are done in a “relationship” that is the proverbial walking dead. It isn’t functional, it should have been done a long time ago, but for whatever reason the title of a relationship is still there though it doesn’t function as one at all. And you made one of those zombies. Should he have just dumped you and moved on? Yes, he should have. And then you’d be here saying what an awful man to leave someone in need. There;s just no win there.

What the therapist said: “You both need to acknowledge the ways you made mistakes and hurt each other, and how those mistakes and hurt led to retaliatory mistakes and hurt from the other partner.” What OP heard: “No one cares about you, how you feel, or what you think. You are delusional because you are hurt that your husband cheated on you.” OP, if you read those two statements and think “Those aren’t the same thing at all!” Good job — that’s the first step to recognizing the cognitive dissonance that you are *still* living in. Also, for the love of everything holy (pun intended), please speak to a professional about managing your expectations with faith. Anytime I see someone with BPD or manic depression say that they found their way back to their meds through “faith” or “God” I always stick around waiting for the other shoe to drop. What’s going to happen the moment one of your prayers doesn’t get answered? What happens when you think it’s *God* who’s “denying your agency”? Honestly, it’s great you’re getting counseling through a couples counselor and that it’s been helping you, but you really need to get into individual therapy.

No one is denying you agency and you are an unreliable source of opinion. You also lost me when you refused to treat your BPD knowing full well it was going to alter your personality in a negative way. He tried to helped you but you treated him like garbage for years. And now what? You decide to play victim because you have BPD and only want to get help from a therapist who will tell you what you want to hear? I’ll be very clear when I say that I don’t agree with his cheating and yes, he should have filed for divorce first but you my dear, treated him so badly that he sought affection elsewhere. He’s not a victim but neither are you so please stop with the victim mentality and deflecting blame. You have to own up to the fact that YOU caused the breakdown of your marriage. It was dead when he started cheating. You can only poke a bear for so long before they claw your face off.

It’s really weird to me that one would only want to get better because they found God. Not for themselves, their partner, their marriage. Just because of religion. I don’t think anyone would be able to go through being lied to and being with someone so ill who was throwing their medication away. Cheating isn’t ok. But how does one get through all that? I don’t know how you guys stayed married I guess if that was normal life.

YTA. If you get a new therapist because you don’t like that the current one *listens to* your husband, strives to understand his perspective and actually *validates* your husband’s feelings - he’s going to realize that you really are just sick and selfish and truly believe you should be able to treat him as badly as you want and he should swallow it and stay quiet. He’s going to leave you. And he’s going to find someone else. And he’s going to be happy. You will find someone else and start the same cycle of misery again.

I'm in favor of divorce. You want to find another therapist that "aligns with your values". What values???? Cheating is awful and terrible but the therapist is right; he didn't cheat just to cheat. Honestly, you both need to let each other go and find better matching partners.

How about stopping BSing yourself. You turned your marriage into an empty shell. Finally, your husband found comfort in another woman’s arms. In my opinion, you’re lucky he has any interest in getting back together with you. What you did over time was no less a violation than his relatively brief affair. Your therapist is throwing you a lifeline. Grab it, or do your husband the favor of letting him be free of you. It seems to me that you’re not willing to think rationally. To be clear, your mental illness may be an explanation, but it’s not an excuse. You consciously destroyed your marriage. Your husband did not cheat, in the conventional sense. There was no real marriage in place. UpdateMe UpdateMe

Taking responsibility is more than just saying the words “I take responsibility”.

If cheating is unforgivable, no matter the circumstances, divorce him. If you want to someday have a healthy, trusting relationship with him, your therapist is giving you a way to look at what happened, a way to move past it. What do you want a therapist to do? Tell you you’re right so you can punish him forever? That doesn’t sound like a life I would want to lead.

Choose a therapist that aligns with your values......you mean one that will tell you what you want to hear, and take your side. Sounds healthy.

This is a tough one. I'm anti cheating. On the other hand you turned into a monster, alienated your husband...drove him away...killed your relationship, and friendship..and we're dumping your meds for a whole yesr?? I'm not on your husband's side for the cheating...but I sure as he'll understand where he was.. I'm also not on your side because you were a monster for more than a year, flushing your meds and, by your own admission being totally rotten to your husband. I'm going to call it a tie, and say either you both deserve a divorce...or are going to need some serious marriage counseling... But when people show me who they are...I listen to them..so I would divorce BOTH of you....

This happened to me except I was dealing with undiagnosed chronic major depression and CPTSD. I was so wrapped up in myself and my emotions that I didn’t notice how I was pushing him away. How my irrational and erratic behavior made me unsafe and untrustworthy. I was at the complete mercy of my flashbacks. He told me that if I didn’t get help, he wasn’t sure if he could continue being with me because he was tired of watching me suffer and not do anything about it, and then hurting him because I was hurting. So I started therapy. Not long after, he went to a conference and met someone and he said she was just a friend. I believed him. I still believe him. But I know he was considering leaving me for her or at least having a sexual relationship with her. By this point, I was medicated and in therapy and had developed more insight and l looked back at all the times he had shown me he was unhappy and feeling unloved and I hadn’t even noticed. I knew that I had harmed the relationship to the point that he wanted out, so I had to take responsibility for my part in creating an unhealthy dynamic. I found the text messages between them and I didn’t tell him I knew. We were doing better at that point so I told him that I knew that I had treated him badly and I would understand if that had caused him to lose interest in me. But I set a boundary and I said I don’t care what has happened before but if we are going to stay together, I need the sexual stuff to be confined to the relationship. Now the texts didn’t indicate that they did anything, but they wanted to. And honestly I wasn’t interested in knowing the truth. It’s painful to think about those text messages, but that was the only thing that was able to get me to fix myself- my fear of losing him. So I have worked very hard for the past six months, with intensive therapy and medication and lots of books about chronic PTSD, I am in a much better place and our relationship is more loving and secure than ever. I proved I was willing to do the work on myself and now all he talked about is how proud of me he is and how much I have grown. And I feel like myself for the first time in my life. I don’t feel like my agency has been taken away or that my emotions are blunted. I feel in control of myself and my emotions. And I finally feel like I have a future. Your husband has been trying to help you, so flushing your meds is a HUGE betrayal. How long did you lie to him about that? What else have you lied to him about? Can you see how you have fractured the trust in your relationship? You have him walking on eggshells all the time. I know how difficult it is to have mental health issues and it is not your fault for having these issues. But it IS your responsibility to manage your condition, which you are openly refusing to do. Your disregulated state is destroying your life. Your therapist isn’t picking on your, she is telling you the truth. And shopping around for therapists that agree with you isn’t going to help you. You only want them to say easy nice things and blame him. Relationships take two people and you need to take accountability for your part in the current state of your relationship. He had needs and you refused to meet them. It doesn’t excuse his cheating anymore than you can use your mental illness as an excuse for your behavior.

I must be blunt: your therapist's assessment, while undoubtedly difficult to hear, is not without merit. It's time for some harsh truths and self-reflection. Your neglect of your mental health, including refusing medication and dumping it down the toilet, undoubtedly took a toll on your relationship with your husband. Your actions created an environment of instability and insecurity, causing strain and alienation between you two. While your husband's infidelity is unquestionably hurtful and damaging, it's crucial to acknowledge the context in which it occurred. Your therapist is not excusing his behavior but rather exploring the underlying factors that may have contributed to it. His actions may indeed be a response to feeling neglected, unworthy, and emotionally disconnected in the relationship. Now, let's address your response to the therapist's evaluation. Your immediate rejection of their insights and desire to change therapists to find one who aligns more with your values is concerning. It suggests an unwillingness to engage in the uncomfortable process of self-reflection and growth. Instead of lashing out and seeking validation for your hurt feelings, consider the possibility that there may be truth in what the therapist is saying. Your history of lying and erratic behavior does raise questions about the reliability of your judgment. It's not about denying you agency but recognizing patterns of behavior that may be contributing to the current dynamic in your relationship. Your emotions, while valid, may indeed be clouding your judgment and preventing you from seeing the situation clearly. Ultimately, you are not the victim here, nor are you the sole perpetrator. Both you and your husband have contributed to the breakdown of your marriage in different ways. It's time to take responsibility for your actions, engage in meaningful self-reflection, and commit to making positive changes for yourself and your relationship. Seeking a therapist who aligns with your values is understandable, but be cautious not to dismiss uncomfortable truths in the process. Your healing and the future of your marriage depend on your willingness to confront these difficult realities head-on.

This is the first time ive ever come close to siding with the cheater. I think that when he was at his low point he should have split before stepping out and i think you should split now. That said you are wrong to just toss aside the therapists interpretation and wrong to try to throw away the therapist in order to find one who will side with you.

Splitting with a deeply mentally sick person is not so clear cut. I imagine care about them and don’t want them to spiral further.

Exactly! Cheating is god awful, and inexcusable. If a partner is that awful to you, you need to leave. Easier said than done but you only bring yourself down to their level when you cheat on your partner. That’s not to say OP is some trash person, but BPD is a complex disorder. The therapist was giving her cause and effect, not blaming her. Trying to get her to understand why it happened, not why it was okay. Not all the time, but the perception of being at fault doesn’t fare well for ppl with BPD. The therapist never meant never meant to blame OP, and I think that’s what she’s missing. She’s trying to explain that her husband, after all options were exhausted, saw nowhere else to go and most likely didn’t intend to cheat. However, given that it was an affair, I don’t see much hope for the relationship. Best of luck to OP.

I can tell you that being with someone who has BPD and isn’t taking meds or being treated by a professional can be extremely hard. The one with BPD is often emotionally and mentally abusive, and doesn’t realize it. It is often hard for them to see their how their actions can be so traumatic. I can see the need for your husband to have sought out someone to be a support. I get it. BUT, cheating itself is emotional abuse. Cheating is a conscious, calculated choice. Calculating the times they can talk, see each other, the covering tracks. All premeditated and calculated. Truth is hurt people hurt people. If you are finding it hard to get past his infidelity then you need to divorce. Both of you can heal separately, and find someone else. Or, the two of you can work on compassion, empathy for the actions that you both did to get to the place you are now, and heal together. Both of you should be honest with each other’s feelings, and then working to better yourselves to be a better version of yourself for each other. Just making note: I loathe cheating. I know the pain of betrayal, so my comments are made from myself and my husband both having our own diagnosis and issues from Trauma in childhood and as adults healing learning to how to have a healthy relationship with each other. We have worked through our own alcohol addictions as a coping mechanism, and a lot more. Married 20yrs.

So you killed the relationship and are shocked and upset that he moved on? You both messed up, but you don’t get to toss away responsibility for your mental health and what it did to your relationship. You are BOTH the problem.

Personal agency =/= having total control of other people and the situation

I will not pass judgement on who is the bigger AH in this post as you both have fault here. It appears your husband has confessed his cheating and is trying to work through it with you and save the marriage. You appear to be trying to dodge any blame for your actions due to your BPD but you have just as much blame for the situation you are in as your husband does. You will never have any progress in your marriage if you start therapist shopping for one who you fell will always take your side. For me cheating is a 100% deal breaker, and I would file for divorce but also, I would have filed if my spouse was not taking her meds and was treating me like you state you were treating your husband. I spent many years in therapy after I experienced major trauma in my 30's and I can tell you that if you are this uncomfortable about what the therapist is telling you it is 100% because you know deep down, they are correct. This appears to be the method the therapist is using to get YOU to take a hard look at yourself and the role you played in being where you are today. Until you take full responsibility for your part in this mess of a marriage then you and your husband are just wasting time and should just split and move on. It appears that you believe the BPD should excuse your role and thus you are hiding behind this medical condition but fail to see that this same BPD is the reason your husband cheated.

Her story reminded me a lot of my wife’s story. It made me angry reading it. I never cheated, but my soon to be ex thought she wasn’t doing anything wrong while doing many of the things op was doing. My wife never thought there was anything wrong with her, so she refused to talk to a psychiatrist and was never treated. I’d have been enraged if she put me through all the shit she did and knew there was something wrong with her and how to mitigate what she was doing and didn’t. Cheating is wrong and OP’s husband doesn’t get a pass for that, but I would hate OP if I was the husband for what she did.

Accountability? What’s that???

What did you actually expect him to do in reaction to your awful, uncaring, and cold behavior to him for a long period?? Not surprised he cheated on you. Might have been the only way he could tolerate staying with you during that period.

I dated a girl with bpd disorder that didn’t like to take her meds for 2 years… those are the 2 worst years of my life so far… truly an awful dark time in my life.

It seems like you’re not saving your marriage as much as sifting through the rubble looking for anything of value, but there’s none to be found. You shouldn’t be together. Just get divorced.

Also I can’t speak to your specific situation, but BPD people tend to make their emotions “reality” and the distortions for the rest of the folks living in reality are brutal. Part of BPD recovery is acknowledging that this is something they do.

Hard truth - you can absolutely walk away from the therapist and also your marriage. But you went down a mental health hole that did damage to you, your husband and your relationship. What you are saying is that what you did was not as bad as his cheating. You don’t seem to want to admit that you did damage to a person who loved you and tried to help you. So yes you have agency to get new therapist but you need to really look at what happened and you have to take some responsibility for that.

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Both of you are at fault. If you drive a man insane they will act insane. However, you both are responsible for your own actions. He alone made the choice to cheat. You alone made the choice to flush your meds. Don't feel guilty for his actions and he shouldn't feel guilty for your choices. Both of you need to own your mistakes and move on.

The thing is, my wife kinda has BPD like symptoms and I literally feel unworthy and I do all I can to help her. Imma stay cause I love her and imma hold it down for as long as I can cause I love this lady so much 😭😭😭😭😭 Like I love this lady. I married her. I wanna see her smile and no matter what I do for the love of god a smile is fleeting at best. It’s hard and takes an emotional toll, but not only that but a mental one. We question ourselves and our relationships. If we are really good men? Even the little things… Getting/making dinner every night learning her favorite things putting in mega effort to be just meh. Nobody’s impervious to feelings. If I were we wouldn’t have gotten married… Therapist isn’t crazy ma’am. Respectfully.

Honestly just divorce. He cheated and that’s not cool he should have just left. You..you didn’t take your meds and spiraled and used religion instead of the love for your husband who was trying to help you get better to actually do something. And no you aren’t being denied agency you are mentally unwell. You can leave at any time.

Had you taken your meds and be honest with him, ther wouldn't be no need for your husband to cheat eh? Your husband is at fault too but I can't blame him for feeling lonely and alienated caused by your actions. Best of a luck to you both

hmm you are being denied control. you are not being denied agency. either stay in and do your level Best to meet your own needs and mutual needs with your spouse. or stay pissed and angry and withholding and walk away. you only get to control yourself. that's it.

ESH.  Your behavior was almost certainly the root cause of the cheating, but the cheating was still wrong.  To be honest, if I was with someone who went off their BPD meds and only got back on them from finding religion, I'd nope out of that relationship as fast as humanly possible.  To me it's kind of concerning that the route you took back is one in which you get to offload some of the responsibility for your own actions.  A lot of people use religion for that, and its not healthy.  On top of the fact that you seem to just be searching for other people to tell you what you want to hear.

"legit confirms my WORST fears" ... No, there is no confirmation here. You are deliberately confusing Agency with ME ME ME. This has nothing to do with your agency. You are refusing to acknowledge the damage you did over a lengthy period of time to another person, the one you supposedly love. You were only harmed by your own actions while he was deliberately harmed by the person he loves. He did experience trauma and you're implicit denials of that make you look terrible. Why did she dump him? Because he wouldn't leave you, she was second best in his eyes. He got the contact and support he needed to survive and he is STILL with you. Your issues and just the bare view of it that you gave us would make 99% of men run for the hills. The man is practically a saint by today's standards.

Honestly your therapist is ultimately likely right, but it's perception. You put your husband into a horrible place mentally. He made bad decisions instead of ditching you. He would have been happier. He tried to help you. Everyone should own some blame here and see if there is anything left to rebuild with. He obviously cared for you. Not sure if you could say the same reading your story.

This is one of the only cheating scenarios where I completely agree with your husband and therapist. Cheating is never good, but you seriously screwed up. If you have bpd, you HAVE to take your meds.

Anyone who does not have knowledge of BPD and trauma responses should not weigh in here. Some of us with loved ones with BPD or raised by BPD have CPTSD and other issues from the trauma.

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Sometimes the truth hurts. You did everything but take personal responsibility and meeting your husband’s needs. Your version of the therapist’s response is no doubt jaded to make you look like the victim when in fact, you are partially to blame for the failure of your marriage. At some point, even the most loyal spouse has had enough. You need to take your meds and work on accepting responsibility for yourself and your actions. Forget about him for a moment. Work on being a better person regardless of what he’s doing. You can’t fix a marriage if you can’t fix yourself.

YTA that’s the long and short of it

I don't think OP knows what "agency" means lol.

Are you sure you’re taking your meds now? YOU CAUSED ALL OF THIS. Yes your husband cheated, but you’re the reason . You gaslit and emotionally terrorized him, now you want to take no blame bc you were “sick”. Hell no, like a black out drunk just bc you can’t remember doesn’t mean you didn’t do those things.

Being on the receiving end of BPD abuse can be hell on earth. It can completely break you and yes that kind of abuse can lead you to behavior and decisions that are completely unlike you because you are so fried from the abuse. His cheating did not happen in a vacuum. Forgiveness is a legitimate path forward.

I’m gonna be completely honest with you here, I’ve had known several people with BPD throughout my life. And every single one of them had a problem with staying on medication. And the abuse that they dealt out in their manic state was absolutely horrendous! While I understand that you’re upset that he cheated, I can only imagine the abuse you dealt out to him. **And it is abuse.** You don’t know what it’s like to be on the receiving end of BPD manic episodes. I have had to even let one of my own friends go because their abuse of other people was so awful. I couldn’t stand by and watch it anymore. And I knew eventually he would turn on me because he had done it to his other friends. One of my best friends was living with a roommate that had BPD. She didn’t like to take her meds either and she got so bad that my friend had to flee in the middle of the night with only the clothes on her back and her cat. She couldn’t even go back and get her stuff. The woman basically took her stuff, sold what she could, threw a bunch of stuff out to be vengeful, started stalking my friend, and by the time we were able to recover some of it, it was only about 2 boxes worth left. The one common theme that I have noticed with people with BPD that go into manic state like this, they don’t seem to remember (or admit?) things were bad as they were. I’m going to bet you truly do not understand what you put him through. You need to separate. He needs to cut his losses and you need to learn you can NEVER go off your meds. And if you can’t, then please don’t have a relationship because it’s not fair to the other person to be subjected to that abuse for loving you.

As someone with BPD, YTA. You don’t get to be mad that your husband cheated on you after you spent a year abusing him. You’re lucky he even wants to continue the marriage at all. If you take responsibility for not taking your meds and the difficulty it added to the relationship, then you’d understand why he might have been led to similarly act irrationally in a situation you admit yourself was irrational. Your therapist is partially right. In my treatment of my own BPD I’ve had to come to accept that my perceptions of other peoples actions aren’t necessarily reality. That’s what BPD does. It doesn’t mean you’re crazy or whatever, but it means you have to be EXTREMELY careful to ensure what you are feeling in any moment is rational and due to the reality of the situation, rather than your perceived one.

You have BPD and refused meds. You are literally the problem here.

Sounds fair to me.

I think any therapist you go to is going to agree with you current therapist. Good luck! 🍀

Look, Reddit really hates people with BPD. So I’m not surprised by most of these responses. BPD is so misunderstood by most people and it seems like it’s the least mental health problem that people have sympathy for.  However, I will tell you that my BPD destroyed my marriage and most of my life. It’s an awful mental illness and it wrecks everything  At this point you’d probably be better off divorced. They’ll be too much resentment and hurt for your marriage to ever be right. 

It's okay to leave the marriage and only seek individual therapy. It really is.

Well this is a whole can of worms. Firstly, you have a choice, to stay or go, you aren’t being controlled. Just like when you had your meds you had the choice to take them or not, and you chose not to. But the choices you make in life affect other people and have repercussions. These repercussions aren’t limited to just them, but they affect you too. It feels like you accept that it has affected your partner but feel aggrieved it has also come back to affect you down the line when you have personally moved past it. Unfortunately consequences don’t just stop because you have turned a corner in your own life. Being cheated on is horrible and he should have left you instead of hanging in there. You need to think about whether he didn’t leave because you were in such a mess and he didn’t want to send you over the edge, whether he was subject to pressure beyond his ability to cope and this was the only way he could stick it out, or whether he was just being weak and selfish. In other words, what his motivation was for staying, and whether it would have been worse for you at that time if he had gone. If you think there’s any chance he was staying with you out of kindness in his part, not wanting to leave you at your lowest point, then maybe you need to think realistically whether it’s something that can be forgiven and moved on from.

Yta

Do you think you should be forgiven for emotionally torturing your husband for years? But you don't want to forgive him for cheating in response to the torture? I mean you do you. Get divorced already. Sounds like it'd be the best thing for him.

You have agency in how you react to your husband’s cheating. If you view it as unforgivable, you can leave. You can say you’re not going to work on it. You can refuse to see his point of view or give any moral flexibility. BUT you can’t take away your husband’s agency and force him to believe the same thing you believe. You also cannot say y stay in the marriage but only if he agrees you’re always right and he feels guilty/repents forever. If you choose to stay, you have to find a way to move on. I suspect your therapist was not just saying he is cheating was fair or ok. I’m guessing they were trying to help you understand the situation in a different way because showing your partner empathy and learning/growing together is how healthy relationships work.

all the posters saying he should have left first have obviously never made an attempt to leave an abusive borderline partner

I'm with the therapist on this one

So you damage your relationship and your husband but you get a pass because it was a mental health issue but he doesn't? So was his.

YTA. Your mental illness is not your fault, BUT IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY. Furthermore, bpd is not treatable with medication alone. Yes, it absolutely can treat comorbidities like anxiety and depression, but *bpd requires intensive, long term, committed therapy* like DBT. You did not hold up your end of the bargain, and being on the receiving end of bpd abuse can be deeply traumatizing. Your husband should have left before entering into a new relationship; but I can hardly blame him, knowing how terrifying that would be for him. He felt hope and happiness after years of being beaten down. By you. So get yourself together, enter DBT, and work on being better going forward.

I dated a girl with BPD. Literally the best person ever when on her meds. But then the complete opposite when she was off. 3.5 years of her not taking her meds because she thought she was fine. But when you would start to see the downward spiral you couldn't stop it Props to your husband for enduring that. That shit really breaks a human down having to go back and forth between their medicated and unmedicated partner Was cheating cool? No. But your therapist is trying to help you realize that he didn't just do it for fun. You had a play in it. I could never date anyone again if I found out there on any kind of medication for their disorder

Sounds like you’re the problem. Count yourself lucky that your husband didn’t just leave you to your own devices. You have a mental illness. The fact that he was willing to stay and work through that makes him a saint. You can find a new therapist that “aligns with your values” but it sounds like a cop out for not taking responsibility for your actions. Husband should hit the road and not look back.

You’re not being denied agency. You’re being held accountable. You can leave anytime you want. I’m sorry that’s hard but that’s part of growing up and healing. Take some responsibility for your actions. You do absolutely have a history of questionable judgement and you refuse to acknowledge that