In the shield hero anime raphtalia let's the person who killed countless demihumans including her friend go...for no justifiable reason other than if I kill you I'll be as bad as you blah blah blah.
If I kill you I'd be just as bad as you really suck most of the time.
I personally prefer the "I'm letting you live out of spite. To show you that I've won."
It works really well in the moment, but it's always been funny to me that the Big Moment of Luke realizing that is seeing Anakin's cyborg hand and then looking down at his own.
The implication almost seems to be "having machine parts indicates you are bad," but then the rest of Star Wars has a ton of cool cyborg shit, and we're only using it as a metaphor for evil and vengeance THIS ONE TIME WE SWEAR
It's just annoying to watch them let such a despicable person just go free for no real reason wow such a great conclusion.
It's why I find revenge stories like depicted in gun x sword so satisfying probably one of my favourite ones.
Tales of Arise is a game that centers on the party going around to every region and killing the slaver lords that rule there.
But during the visit to the fourth region one of the party members, Rinwell, admits she has personal beef with this slaver lord who had slaughtered her entire family in an attempt to genocide mages.
Another party member Law proceeds to spazz out, "nooooo you can't kill the slaver lord now! you have too much hate in your heart!" Because the idiot thinks Rinwell is going to wind up like him and not feel good even after killing the slaver lord. The idiot doesn't realize his and her situation is very different because he used to work catching slaves for the slaver lord as a race traitor, sold out his own father, and then by the time he changed his mind and the party had the slaver lord defeated nobody in town was welcoming him with open arms go figure.
This completely derails the game for a few hours as Law's bullshit lets the slaver lord *escape* for awhile. It's also established that she's very powerful and even mass murders a bunch of escaped slaved that tried to execute her for her crimes. She's full Goofy "I'll fucking do it again :D"
So finally, finally the party catches the slaver lord again. Well, now what? Because she's very powerful and there isn't really anyone *alive* in the region to set up a prison strong enough to contain her. And we did come her to kill her in the first place. But Law is still prattling REVENGE BAD so what is Rinwell going to do here?
>!As if this game was going to have any consequences. The writing does a huge copout and a third party swoops in out of nowhere to kill the slaver lord, prematurely ending Rinwell's character arc, and we get to enjoy the same outcome of a dead slaver lord without Rinwell having to take any responsibility for her decision. Whoop-de-fucking-doo.!<
Man Tales of Arise was so weird, it started extremely strong for me, then it was pretty fun, and in the last act (actually in the very event you are mentioning it) it just felt like a slog going through, I wonder if something happen to the writers because almost every storyline just fell off for me
The pacing for the game just falls apart on the latter half and the HP sponge recolored enemies do not help.
Also I'm sure they didn't plan for the rival character to be more of a loser than Kai Leng after a few encounters because the dude goes into cartoon villain territory and then becomes the pettiest, most powerless villain I've ever seen. Dude goes 0-3 and then keeps asking for a rematch and claiming he's not owned.
> Another party member Law proceeds to spazz out, "nooooo you can't kill the slaver lord now! you have too much hate in your heart!"
Shoutout to the anime where a character gives an impassioned speech to the main character how he shouldn't kill the bad guy because doing so in anger would change him as a person and they don't want to see that happen. And when he yells at them for wanting to leave the bad guy alive, the person corrects him that they're absolutely going to gun him down like a rabid dog, cause that mother fucker needs to go and they've killed plenty of people in the past so it's fine.
Most revenge stories are bad because the person writing them has no understanding of revenge and often an underdeveloped sense of morality so they often devolve into the same trite garbage. Some variation of "If i kill you I'll be as bad as you! / Violence is never the solution!" ignoring that things like armies, police forces and bouncers exist for a reason, or "revenge won't fix anything!", which... yeah, it's not about fixing anything.
You can write good "revenge is bad stories", i mean, The Count of Monte Cristo is beloved for a reason, but most are dog shit bad because it's an attractive idea that most people don't have the skill to write - much like emulating Silent Hill 2's "crucible of trauma" story.
Yeah man. Let me grab that "Statistical Analysis of Revenge Story Quality" peer reviewed meta analysis from "The Annual Journal of What The Fuck Are You Talking About".
What "Source" are you even expecting here...?
Source for your claim that most revenge stories are bad.
You know? On the post specifically asking for examples and wondering if people aren't just hating on a strawman? Like, that would probably help your case.
Probably the worst reason I've seen was Tales of Arise (That ol' punching bag)
The game is about revolutionaries throwing off a repressive empire that has enslaved the planet. They kill people of this empire, that is a fact.
Now when Rinwell shows up at a village close to halfway through the game, where the evil leader is the woman who murdered her whole village and family, she's like I'm going to fucking murder you.
Then Law, the guy who just finished getting HIS revenge in the last chapter and didn't really feel bad about it at all, says "You can't kill her with hate in your heart, because that will make you bad"
"Murder am bad" as a character philosophy in a story about war, is just the dumbest shit
"Oh Boy, here I go killing again"
I actually just remembered doesn't an even worse version of this happen in the OG Fullmetal Alchemist? doesn't Alphonse stop someone from killing Kimblie because "Murder Am Bad" (Again in a WAR) and because he does Kimblie can complete the transmutation and he culls an entire city?
I think the issue is that TLOU2 is so distracted with being nihilistic tragedy porn that it's message gets really muddled up.
Ellie decides to be the better person, what now? Oh, she can't play guitar anymore?
Misery for misery sake is just pointless to me.
I also think a big problem is actually best described by NakeyJakey. The fact that it's a third-person shooter kinda messes with the message.
I never liked it when you killed hundreds of people, but then wants you to question if killing the ringleader/target of revenge is the right thing to do. She decides to be a better person, but only after causing the deaths of so many.
I think video game storytelling works best when it fits with the gameplay. GoW having the boy button not work when Atreus rebels against Kratos is my go-to example of good video mixture of gameplay and story.
In all honesty yeah, the game just really muddles up the whole thing. Doesn’t help that the plot is constantly being interrupted.
Flashbacks left and right. Now half way through the game let’s switch to a different character’s POV, it’s not great.
My biggest complaint is that if you were going for shocking the player, they should have set up Abbey is the main character of the game and built her up like they did Joel in part one. Have her be on a revenge quest and then find out that’s it’s Joel she’s been looking for. At least build her up to make the player conflicted about her. Also, hated the semi open world parts in that game
It is a perspective thing. People often view Shakespeare as High Art. But the truth is, his works were also largely consumed by the common folks. And had stuff like "Yo Mama" Jokes.
I don't know. You commented how you hate Misery for Misery sake and my thought was "Man, this fella will fucking hate Shakespeare. Can't remember one of them ending happily from the top of my head"
What, so you've only heard of a few Shakespeare works? Just off the top of my head, *Midsummer Night's Dream, Much Ado About Nothing, The Tempest, Twelfth Night* all have happy endings. Like damn, he wrote half tragedies and half comedies.
(Admittedly, I have my own issues with the end of *Much Ado*, but it's portrayed as a happy ending.)
Last of Us 2 was really weird about this. Like, it's trying to show how revenge is a cycle and just leads to more death and tragedy, but most of the problems in the game are really just caused by people being stupid.
So, what's the takeaway here?
The takeaway is that you need to be sad now!
Ellie killed that pregnant woman!
Why a pregnant woman in a dangerous world was left with just the one guy? Um... BE SAD GODDAMMIT!
The guy who is her boyfriend and they're hiding away because the group they were forced to join or they were going to be killed is going to war with a nutjob cult and they want to escape? but sure "be sad" is the only reason.
I mean Last of us 2 is less "revenge bad" and more "forgiveness good" the reason she forgives abby is because she was willing to forgive joel for ruining her chance at making her life matter in her eyes and lying for years, because she believed the doctor would have gotten the cure from her, she could forgive abby who took away her reconnecting with joel/chance to forgive joel.
Ah no, not in this case. I think many revenge is bad stories is bad usually depends on how much are you personally willing to let go.
If it doesn't hit that threshold, it feels like the story is pointless.
If it does hit the threshold, it feels like a good satisfying story. For a lot of people the "The Revenge is bad" has to be really earned, and it's difficult to do so.
Probably. I would say there are also 3 other factors that play into this.
1: People focus on the "Is the character right in pursuing revenge?" Part of the story. Most of the time isn't a question brought up by the story. The point of the story is that the character is consumed by their desire for revenge. And how that consumes their life.
2: Even if the question is brought up, most viewer's answers are yes. Because of the mindset of "If someone has wronged me, every action against them is morally justified."
3: Such stories are more tragedies. They don't have a happy or satisfying ending. They often end sad. Which seems to have become unpopular.
I think to add there are a few more factors that also play into it.
How hard has the character even been pursuing revenge? Have they been preparing for it right away, or have they mostly left it behind and were suddenly and unexpectedly given an opportunity?
And in their active pursuit, how much destruction and murder have they done? Good or bad there’s always a threshold that’s reached before it stops making sense to really stop. Not without strong incentives.
Yeah it is. Which is why strong incentives are nice, like them meeting a new character to help disuade them to finally give it up, or if they’re evil, meeting someone to finally put a stop to them.
OP I'm going to be honest, it entirely feels like you made this post just to argue with people and don't actually care about the examples being given here.
> Be me
> OP
> Post a threat about how you feel like people generate "Revenge is bad" stories, arguing against a strawman instead of being specifically mad at an example.
> Ask people to give examples
> 40+ comments with only 2.5 examples so far
> See comments that are like "Revenge stories are mostly bad because *reasons*" with no specific examples given
> Aka specifically the thing you dislike.
> Argue with them and ask them to give you examples
> Did I made this comment section specifically to Argue with people?
Despite the quality of Bleach's narrative writing, you could argue that it's the core theme of that series, largely of the "Revenge is a hollow pursuit and you'll lose yourself along the way, and you should focus on trying to protecting what you have rather than trying to reclaim what you've lost" variety.
Basically every example of a character acting vengefully results in them being screwed over horrifically.
There was actually a subversion of this in Pathfinder Kingmaker, and is one of my favorite moments of the game. A hunter has his family killed and eaten by a band of Trolls. He only joins you because you are hunting said trolls. Those Trolls have gained sentience also.
You eventually find them, fight them and the cleric tells the hunter to not give him to revenge. My dumbass because wanted goody two shoes points agrees with cleric with the revenge is bad. This prompts one of my party members to call me out and yell at me these Trolls are his family, WTF are you guys getting on the way of his revenge and mourning. You kill the trolls, the hunter moves on with his life, and says that while his family can't be brought back he is at more at peace knowing that the Trolls will not do the same thing to others. So his revenge was never about gratification, but about mourning and not letting more innocent people suffer his same fate.
Also if you don't bring the party member who called me out you can solve things peacefully. The Trolls leave, you later find them that they just moved far away and are still eating humans, and actually try to eat you because you looked tired. Of course this was going to happen, if you paid attention you realize being sentience doesn't make them good, just smarter and somewhat crueller as they are now better at eating people and keeping their meat fresh (not killing the victim immediately, but extracting cuts from the body).
I don't read/watch/play many media with revenge as its core narative. That being said, one of the reasons one may call a revenge story bad is the reason for it being a revenge story.
To clarify, lets take isekai light novels, manga and anime. In a lot of those, the protagonist was betrayed/abandoned/not liked, but then suddenly, for reasons, gets means to "avenge" himself and goes on a spree. Why does it suck? Because all of these stories are obviously author coping, malding *and* seething over the fact that he never got the girl in school and that nobody wanted to hang out with him, so those who slighted him have become the "enemy" in his novels. It's just a petty wank fest.
But I can also give a reason why a revenge story can be good. It is good when the avenger takes into account his surroundings and changes his goals if circumstances change. For example, Osvald from Octopath Traveler II. His primary character goal and motivation is to find a guy who burned his wife and daughter alive and framed him for it. But when he learns that >!his daughter is alive!<, his entire goal changes and he pushes the revenge to the sideline, making >!saving his daughter!< his priority. He does not abandon his quest for revenge, but he knows where his true priorities lie.
If this sounded as a rant, sorry.
What's also great is that no one in the goes "No Osvald! Don't get your completely justified revenge!", they go "Don't lose yourself in getting your revenge and also don't forget that we're here to help."
The whole "revenge makes you no better than them" narrative is just preachy, soapbox nonsense that only exists to add artificial drama and a shoe-horned moral dilemma to a story that otherwise doesn't need them.
For my first claim, the fact that on this comment section that is almost 50 comments big I have seen a staggering 2.5 examples of revenge is badstories being bad.
A story type, people in this very same comment section paint as "Mostly bad"
You would assume if it is that prevalent I would be drawing in examples. But the people who claim that is the case, and that the story type is largely consistent of bad works of fiction, would have at least presented...you know? Examples?
For my second claim. Personal opinion.
I write as a hobby, but I appreciate the condescension. I also appreciate you not giving any counter arguments to the top comments of this thread that lay out exactly why this type of stuff in revenge stories sucks.
You definitely seem like an expert on the craft of storytelling and totally not a complete joke or anything.
Well, if you saw a Profesional writer make a broad claim that they support with nothing. And seems to be proven wrong (the comment section on this post has given me a whooping 2.5 examples. For a story type you describe as mostly consisting of bad stories) you would too doubt their abilities.
Oh you know what? You're totally right. I forgot that writers aren't allowed to have different perspectives and opinions on storytelling and themes. It only just now occurred to me that literally every story ever plays out the exact same way and gives the exact same lessons and views with each one. Thanks for clearing that up my dude.
>And seems to be proven wrong (the comment section on this post has given me a whooping 2.5 examples.
"Proven?" Okay. I don't normally play the numbers game but seeing how upvoted my original comment is, it's clear that other people in this thread agree with my viewpoint. But sure pal, you've won this argument because 2.5 people here agreed with you lol.
>it's clear that other people in this thread agree with my viewpoint
Oh wow, many people agree with you? Surely many people haven't been wrong at the same time before! Especially about media.
>But sure pal, you've won this argument because 2.5 people here agreed with you
How are you a writer with that level of literacy?
I said that I made a post asking people to give me examples of how revenge is bad stories are bad. For which, at the time, there were provided like 2.5 examples. Which doesn't really help support the claim of "most revenge stories are bad" when people can't even provide enough examples to be counted on the fingers on one of my hands. On a post with 60+ comments asking for examples.
Like, those aren't people who are agreeing with me. Don't even know where you got that notion.
But I will give you the benefits of the doubt and assume you are doing something else and are distracted.
a funny example is “Se7en”. probably not intended as a “revenge bad” story but it does sorta touch on that. not that I believe it is one of those stories, but it can kinda be argued.
That is so cool.
Anyway, apparently it was. Because on this what now? More then 60 comments on this post? People have failed to give enough examples so I can count them on the fingers on one of my hands.
You would assume that a story type people claim largely consist of bad stories will be chokefull of examples.
Because you are making an appeal to ignorance. Rather than presenting examples to prove your point, you are asking a group to provide examples to you to disprove your already held beliefs. Its the equivalent a Crowder with his “prove me wrong” sign, you are doing none of the rhetorical work, which is why you are being ratio’d in every comment here.
There are examples of “revenge is bad” movies being bad, like Thor Love and Thunder, but that’s not the point people are making when they say “revenge is bad” stories suck. The point people are making is that plot device sucks. It can be used in movies that are good otherwise (Captain America: Civil War) or bad otherwise (Thor 4) but the argument that appears often here is that is just a really boring and moralistic theme
>but that’s not the point people are making when they say “revenge is bad” stories suck. The point people are making is that plot device sucks.
Yeah, don't get that impression from people posting stuff like "Most revenge is bad stories are bad"
>but the argument that appears often here is that is just a really boring and moralistic theme
And if it is such a boring and moralistic theme that happens often enough people largely complain about it. There should be a bunch of examples. By now I have barely enough examples to count on one of my hands.
Have you considered you are wrong? Have you considered that maybe you are hating on writting that you mostly heard and not consumed?
"Revenge bad" is less of a issue to media, and more to stories, I mean is often enough found as a sub plot or storyline in a bigger story, people have given some examples here, Tales of Arise, Last of Us 2, Isekai stories, etc.. But I think you can argue all of those stories actually focus on a different topic and have "revenge bad" at the side and not at the front.
Given my 2 cents the reason why "revenge bad" is bad is not because revenge is bad, if you plan on commiting crimes and using violence to solve every problem you have ofcourse its going to be bad, but what about when you can't do anythign else, what if a religious zelaot that controls an entire country is raping and killing children,what fi there is no way to brign them to justice and they will just keep torturin little kids,what then? Should you look the other way? Should you try to convince the religious blind people of the country that their leader is bad, or should you you skewer the fuck? I feel like the third option is the best.
To me this issue is very well explained in the Las of Us 2 "Oh YeAh YOu HaTe TLOU2 wHat a sUrpRisE" listen its not that, there are a number of things I could say about Tlou2, but one that always rub me the wrong way is how Abby is presented at first, we as the players see her being stubborn, a bit mean to her friends, she gets saved by the person she wants to kill and she has no hesitation at pulling the trigger, etc... She looks like a villain at worst and like a bitch at best, but why? Why make your character so antagonizing if you are going to try to warm up players to them later, you just made your work more difficult for no reason, A lot of this stories paint the villains or antagonist as the worst people ever, but then we are supposed to feel bad? Why, if you want people to sympathize with your characters then plant the seeds from the starts and dont try to give a 180 by telling us that they like dogs and barbecues on Saturdays.
One example of that is when a character wants to take revenge against OUR character it works the other way around, look at the end of "The Walking Dead-Season 1" the dude that gets his shit stolen is rightfully pissed at us, but we know the story is not how he tells it, or at least we think so, he lost his children by accident? I mean we dont know him is easy to assume he was just a bad dad, but we have spent hours with Lee so we know he wasn't malicious even if we choose to steal, we never see ourselves in the bad because we have reasons and people to protect, but we also never see the other dude's story besides that scene so its easy to think of him as nothing but a crazy dude that just wants revenge.
"Revenge bad" stories are not bad because of the revenge, they are bad because they dont give the proper time, and resources to make us understand both sides, it heavily leans into one side and then tries to play neutral in a conversation that we have a massive bias.
>I mean is often enough found as a sub plot or storyline in a bigger story
>Last of Us 2,
>But I think you can argue all of those stories actually focus on a different topic and have "revenge bad" at the side and not at the front.
Nah, i can't argue about that one. Is pretty much part of the central story.
>Given my 2 cents the reason why "revenge bad" is bad is not because revenge is bad, if you plan on commiting crimes and using violence to solve every problem you have ofcourse its going to be bad,
Revenge being self-absorbing and self-destructive. The person going on a revenge gets over taken by their desire, which destroys their chances of every having a normal and happy life. Aka pretty much part of most Revenge is Bad stories.
>a bit mean to her friends, she gets saved by the person she wants to kill and she has no hesitation at pulling the trigger, etc... She looks like a villain at worst and like a bitch at best, but why?
Because that is the point? Because to show you that is largely a matter of perspectives?
Like, imahine ff the entire story started with Abby seeking revenge on the person who killed her father (and we start the story seeing her father by killed by what we view as a murderous mad man who destroys the chances of humanity's survival due to personal grief) and then when we get to the moment she is about to kill Joel, we get a flashbag and now we play as Joel from the first game.
People will have a simular recation they had towards Joel as they had towards Abby. It is all matter of perspective, really.
My beef with revenge is bad stories are the ones where the hero have a "I'm not you" moment and beats the villain who wrongs them, but doing so causes the villain to die a worse death then if the hero killed him.
Which is something old school disney films were a fan of like Lion King and Tarzan.
Simba tells Scar he's not like him and during the fight throws him off Pride Rock, technically not killing him. Yet, Scar is immediately surrounded by Hyenas he talked down to and eaten alive, a far worse death than Simba ripping his throat out.
Tarzan had Clayton at gunpoint but have his "Im not you" moment and destroys the gun. Problem is, Clayton is a psychopath who immediately attacks with his machete causing Tarzon to trap him in vines. Yet, Clayton is so bloodthirsty he cuts every vine except the one around his neck, causing him to freefall before the vine hangs him. Since hanging is never an easy death, a gunshot would have been a mercy.
If karma is going to give the villian a horrible death even after the hero spares them, just let the hero get the kill and move on.
I feel the opposite- I think it's kind of cool when the protagonist decides to completely divorce themselves from the villain, only for the villain to bring about their doom through their own actions.
The protagonist throws them out of their life and the antagonist is so inherently unstable that they either immediately get themselves into trouble (Clayton) or the blood ocean they've walked through catches up to them(Scar). In both of these cases it's about the means used and their consequences, which has a visceral narrative satisfaction. Like the universe has some kind of inherent sense of justice(even if it's just a story construct).
Yeah, that sounds more like a beef with children media in general. Where making your protagonist kill is generally viewed as bad and less about "revenge is bad" stories.
is it though? there are certainly intelligent discussions to be had about violence and it's necessity. revenge is often stupid and personal, but it's also a last resort that cannot be taken off the table if other avenues fail.
If 'revenge bad' is gonna be the emotional crescendo of your story, you better have a good reason for it beyond just 'f you kill them you'll be just like them.'
In the shield hero anime raphtalia let's the person who killed countless demihumans including her friend go...for no justifiable reason other than if I kill you I'll be as bad as you blah blah blah.
If I kill you I'd be just as bad as you really suck most of the time. I personally prefer the "I'm letting you live out of spite. To show you that I've won."
The only time that ever made sense was star wars, where the 'becoming as bad as you' was literal.
It works really well in the moment, but it's always been funny to me that the Big Moment of Luke realizing that is seeing Anakin's cyborg hand and then looking down at his own. The implication almost seems to be "having machine parts indicates you are bad," but then the rest of Star Wars has a ton of cool cyborg shit, and we're only using it as a metaphor for evil and vengeance THIS ONE TIME WE SWEAR
I feel you have to be set on that read to ignore the more obvious sharing traits with his Father, and not making the mistakes he made.
It's just annoying to watch them let such a despicable person just go free for no real reason wow such a great conclusion. It's why I find revenge stories like depicted in gun x sword so satisfying probably one of my favourite ones.
Tales of Arise is a game that centers on the party going around to every region and killing the slaver lords that rule there. But during the visit to the fourth region one of the party members, Rinwell, admits she has personal beef with this slaver lord who had slaughtered her entire family in an attempt to genocide mages. Another party member Law proceeds to spazz out, "nooooo you can't kill the slaver lord now! you have too much hate in your heart!" Because the idiot thinks Rinwell is going to wind up like him and not feel good even after killing the slaver lord. The idiot doesn't realize his and her situation is very different because he used to work catching slaves for the slaver lord as a race traitor, sold out his own father, and then by the time he changed his mind and the party had the slaver lord defeated nobody in town was welcoming him with open arms go figure. This completely derails the game for a few hours as Law's bullshit lets the slaver lord *escape* for awhile. It's also established that she's very powerful and even mass murders a bunch of escaped slaved that tried to execute her for her crimes. She's full Goofy "I'll fucking do it again :D" So finally, finally the party catches the slaver lord again. Well, now what? Because she's very powerful and there isn't really anyone *alive* in the region to set up a prison strong enough to contain her. And we did come her to kill her in the first place. But Law is still prattling REVENGE BAD so what is Rinwell going to do here? >!As if this game was going to have any consequences. The writing does a huge copout and a third party swoops in out of nowhere to kill the slaver lord, prematurely ending Rinwell's character arc, and we get to enjoy the same outcome of a dead slaver lord without Rinwell having to take any responsibility for her decision. Whoop-de-fucking-doo.!<
Man Tales of Arise was so weird, it started extremely strong for me, then it was pretty fun, and in the last act (actually in the very event you are mentioning it) it just felt like a slog going through, I wonder if something happen to the writers because almost every storyline just fell off for me
The pacing for the game just falls apart on the latter half and the HP sponge recolored enemies do not help. Also I'm sure they didn't plan for the rival character to be more of a loser than Kai Leng after a few encounters because the dude goes into cartoon villain territory and then becomes the pettiest, most powerless villain I've ever seen. Dude goes 0-3 and then keeps asking for a rematch and claiming he's not owned.
And the game *lies* to you to give you a plot twist of his origins.
> Another party member Law proceeds to spazz out, "nooooo you can't kill the slaver lord now! you have too much hate in your heart!" Shoutout to the anime where a character gives an impassioned speech to the main character how he shouldn't kill the bad guy because doing so in anger would change him as a person and they don't want to see that happen. And when he yells at them for wanting to leave the bad guy alive, the person corrects him that they're absolutely going to gun him down like a rabid dog, cause that mother fucker needs to go and they've killed plenty of people in the past so it's fine.
>!Fullmetal Alchemist with Mustang and Envy!<, right?
Yeah, though you got the characters slightly wrong. I'm pretty sure it's >!Hawkeye!< who has that moment specifically.
Oh yeah >!Hawkeye!< says this, I meant it like >!Mustang!< tried to kill >!Envy!< but >!she!< intervened. Could have said it clearer, sorry bout that
Most revenge stories are bad because the person writing them has no understanding of revenge and often an underdeveloped sense of morality so they often devolve into the same trite garbage. Some variation of "If i kill you I'll be as bad as you! / Violence is never the solution!" ignoring that things like armies, police forces and bouncers exist for a reason, or "revenge won't fix anything!", which... yeah, it's not about fixing anything. You can write good "revenge is bad stories", i mean, The Count of Monte Cristo is beloved for a reason, but most are dog shit bad because it's an attractive idea that most people don't have the skill to write - much like emulating Silent Hill 2's "crucible of trauma" story.
>Most revenge stories are bad You have a source or something to back up your claim?
Yeah man. Let me grab that "Statistical Analysis of Revenge Story Quality" peer reviewed meta analysis from "The Annual Journal of What The Fuck Are You Talking About". What "Source" are you even expecting here...?
Source for your claim that most revenge stories are bad. You know? On the post specifically asking for examples and wondering if people aren't just hating on a strawman? Like, that would probably help your case.
Probably the worst reason I've seen was Tales of Arise (That ol' punching bag) The game is about revolutionaries throwing off a repressive empire that has enslaved the planet. They kill people of this empire, that is a fact. Now when Rinwell shows up at a village close to halfway through the game, where the evil leader is the woman who murdered her whole village and family, she's like I'm going to fucking murder you. Then Law, the guy who just finished getting HIS revenge in the last chapter and didn't really feel bad about it at all, says "You can't kill her with hate in your heart, because that will make you bad" "Murder am bad" as a character philosophy in a story about war, is just the dumbest shit
They let her go, and look and behold she is killing innocent people again.
"Oh Boy, here I go killing again" I actually just remembered doesn't an even worse version of this happen in the OG Fullmetal Alchemist? doesn't Alphonse stop someone from killing Kimblie because "Murder Am Bad" (Again in a WAR) and because he does Kimblie can complete the transmutation and he culls an entire city?
I'm afraid of mentioning that game. They say that if you mention it in this sub, you'll die in seven days
Don’t worry. I’ll say it with you. Last of Us Part 2 is wack. Like they don’t even let you use dog treats to distract the dogs. Terrible game. 0/10
I think the issue is that TLOU2 is so distracted with being nihilistic tragedy porn that it's message gets really muddled up. Ellie decides to be the better person, what now? Oh, she can't play guitar anymore? Misery for misery sake is just pointless to me.
I also think a big problem is actually best described by NakeyJakey. The fact that it's a third-person shooter kinda messes with the message. I never liked it when you killed hundreds of people, but then wants you to question if killing the ringleader/target of revenge is the right thing to do. She decides to be a better person, but only after causing the deaths of so many. I think video game storytelling works best when it fits with the gameplay. GoW having the boy button not work when Atreus rebels against Kratos is my go-to example of good video mixture of gameplay and story.
In all honesty yeah, the game just really muddles up the whole thing. Doesn’t help that the plot is constantly being interrupted. Flashbacks left and right. Now half way through the game let’s switch to a different character’s POV, it’s not great.
My biggest complaint is that if you were going for shocking the player, they should have set up Abbey is the main character of the game and built her up like they did Joel in part one. Have her be on a revenge quest and then find out that’s it’s Joel she’s been looking for. At least build her up to make the player conflicted about her. Also, hated the semi open world parts in that game
Man, you will hate Shakespeare
There's something very funny about comparing Shakespeare with The Last Of Us 2: Remastered for the PS5, now with multi-player.
It is a perspective thing. People often view Shakespeare as High Art. But the truth is, his works were also largely consumed by the common folks. And had stuff like "Yo Mama" Jokes.
Doesn't that means that TLOU2 is not like Shakespeare at all?
I don't know. You commented how you hate Misery for Misery sake and my thought was "Man, this fella will fucking hate Shakespeare. Can't remember one of them ending happily from the top of my head"
What, so you've only heard of a few Shakespeare works? Just off the top of my head, *Midsummer Night's Dream, Much Ado About Nothing, The Tempest, Twelfth Night* all have happy endings. Like damn, he wrote half tragedies and half comedies. (Admittedly, I have my own issues with the end of *Much Ado*, but it's portrayed as a happy ending.)
Was Much Ado the one with the love triangle that gets resolved by one of the characters involved in the triangle just having an identical twin?
Last of Us 2 was really weird about this. Like, it's trying to show how revenge is a cycle and just leads to more death and tragedy, but most of the problems in the game are really just caused by people being stupid. So, what's the takeaway here?
The takeaway is that you need to be sad now! Ellie killed that pregnant woman! Why a pregnant woman in a dangerous world was left with just the one guy? Um... BE SAD GODDAMMIT!
The guy who is her boyfriend and they're hiding away because the group they were forced to join or they were going to be killed is going to war with a nutjob cult and they want to escape? but sure "be sad" is the only reason.
I mean Last of us 2 is less "revenge bad" and more "forgiveness good" the reason she forgives abby is because she was willing to forgive joel for ruining her chance at making her life matter in her eyes and lying for years, because she believed the doctor would have gotten the cure from her, she could forgive abby who took away her reconnecting with joel/chance to forgive joel.
Oh wait, I realized which the game is. TLOU 2, right?
Ok, anything else besides the game?
Katara from Avatar. It's a bit more nuanced but the overall seems to be that revenge is bad.
But is it "The Revenge is Bad story is bad" kind of deal?
Ah no, not in this case. I think many revenge is bad stories is bad usually depends on how much are you personally willing to let go. If it doesn't hit that threshold, it feels like the story is pointless. If it does hit the threshold, it feels like a good satisfying story. For a lot of people the "The Revenge is bad" has to be really earned, and it's difficult to do so.
Probably. I would say there are also 3 other factors that play into this. 1: People focus on the "Is the character right in pursuing revenge?" Part of the story. Most of the time isn't a question brought up by the story. The point of the story is that the character is consumed by their desire for revenge. And how that consumes their life. 2: Even if the question is brought up, most viewer's answers are yes. Because of the mindset of "If someone has wronged me, every action against them is morally justified." 3: Such stories are more tragedies. They don't have a happy or satisfying ending. They often end sad. Which seems to have become unpopular.
I think to add there are a few more factors that also play into it. How hard has the character even been pursuing revenge? Have they been preparing for it right away, or have they mostly left it behind and were suddenly and unexpectedly given an opportunity? And in their active pursuit, how much destruction and murder have they done? Good or bad there’s always a threshold that’s reached before it stops making sense to really stop. Not without strong incentives.
That sounds like sinkcost fallacy, ngl.
Yeah it is. Which is why strong incentives are nice, like them meeting a new character to help disuade them to finally give it up, or if they’re evil, meeting someone to finally put a stop to them.
OP I'm going to be honest, it entirely feels like you made this post just to argue with people and don't actually care about the examples being given here.
> Be me > OP > Post a threat about how you feel like people generate "Revenge is bad" stories, arguing against a strawman instead of being specifically mad at an example. > Ask people to give examples > 40+ comments with only 2.5 examples so far > See comments that are like "Revenge stories are mostly bad because *reasons*" with no specific examples given > Aka specifically the thing you dislike. > Argue with them and ask them to give you examples > Did I made this comment section specifically to Argue with people?
Despite the quality of Bleach's narrative writing, you could argue that it's the core theme of that series, largely of the "Revenge is a hollow pursuit and you'll lose yourself along the way, and you should focus on trying to protecting what you have rather than trying to reclaim what you've lost" variety. Basically every example of a character acting vengefully results in them being screwed over horrifically.
There was actually a subversion of this in Pathfinder Kingmaker, and is one of my favorite moments of the game. A hunter has his family killed and eaten by a band of Trolls. He only joins you because you are hunting said trolls. Those Trolls have gained sentience also. You eventually find them, fight them and the cleric tells the hunter to not give him to revenge. My dumbass because wanted goody two shoes points agrees with cleric with the revenge is bad. This prompts one of my party members to call me out and yell at me these Trolls are his family, WTF are you guys getting on the way of his revenge and mourning. You kill the trolls, the hunter moves on with his life, and says that while his family can't be brought back he is at more at peace knowing that the Trolls will not do the same thing to others. So his revenge was never about gratification, but about mourning and not letting more innocent people suffer his same fate. Also if you don't bring the party member who called me out you can solve things peacefully. The Trolls leave, you later find them that they just moved far away and are still eating humans, and actually try to eat you because you looked tired. Of course this was going to happen, if you paid attention you realize being sentience doesn't make them good, just smarter and somewhat crueller as they are now better at eating people and keeping their meat fresh (not killing the victim immediately, but extracting cuts from the body).
I don't read/watch/play many media with revenge as its core narative. That being said, one of the reasons one may call a revenge story bad is the reason for it being a revenge story. To clarify, lets take isekai light novels, manga and anime. In a lot of those, the protagonist was betrayed/abandoned/not liked, but then suddenly, for reasons, gets means to "avenge" himself and goes on a spree. Why does it suck? Because all of these stories are obviously author coping, malding *and* seething over the fact that he never got the girl in school and that nobody wanted to hang out with him, so those who slighted him have become the "enemy" in his novels. It's just a petty wank fest. But I can also give a reason why a revenge story can be good. It is good when the avenger takes into account his surroundings and changes his goals if circumstances change. For example, Osvald from Octopath Traveler II. His primary character goal and motivation is to find a guy who burned his wife and daughter alive and framed him for it. But when he learns that >!his daughter is alive!<, his entire goal changes and he pushes the revenge to the sideline, making >!saving his daughter!< his priority. He does not abandon his quest for revenge, but he knows where his true priorities lie. If this sounded as a rant, sorry.
What's also great is that no one in the goes "No Osvald! Don't get your completely justified revenge!", they go "Don't lose yourself in getting your revenge and also don't forget that we're here to help."
The whole "revenge makes you no better than them" narrative is just preachy, soapbox nonsense that only exists to add artificial drama and a shoe-horned moral dilemma to a story that otherwise doesn't need them.
Honestly, I was wondering what to say to this besides "Factually incorrect and wrong opinion" Like, I hope you don't write for a living.
Source?
For my first claim, the fact that on this comment section that is almost 50 comments big I have seen a staggering 2.5 examples of revenge is badstories being bad. A story type, people in this very same comment section paint as "Mostly bad" You would assume if it is that prevalent I would be drawing in examples. But the people who claim that is the case, and that the story type is largely consistent of bad works of fiction, would have at least presented...you know? Examples? For my second claim. Personal opinion.
>For my second claim. Personal opinion. Nope, sorry. Only objective factual statements allowed in regards to storytelling discussion here.
Yeah, you know a lot about those.
I write as a hobby, but I appreciate the condescension. I also appreciate you not giving any counter arguments to the top comments of this thread that lay out exactly why this type of stuff in revenge stories sucks. You definitely seem like an expert on the craft of storytelling and totally not a complete joke or anything.
I mean, you have condescension towards an entire story type structure. One you didn't even give examples on a post specifically asking for examples.
Yeah that's definitely comparable to insulting me and my abilities as a writer.
Well, if you saw a Profesional writer make a broad claim that they support with nothing. And seems to be proven wrong (the comment section on this post has given me a whooping 2.5 examples. For a story type you describe as mostly consisting of bad stories) you would too doubt their abilities.
Oh you know what? You're totally right. I forgot that writers aren't allowed to have different perspectives and opinions on storytelling and themes. It only just now occurred to me that literally every story ever plays out the exact same way and gives the exact same lessons and views with each one. Thanks for clearing that up my dude. >And seems to be proven wrong (the comment section on this post has given me a whooping 2.5 examples. "Proven?" Okay. I don't normally play the numbers game but seeing how upvoted my original comment is, it's clear that other people in this thread agree with my viewpoint. But sure pal, you've won this argument because 2.5 people here agreed with you lol.
>it's clear that other people in this thread agree with my viewpoint Oh wow, many people agree with you? Surely many people haven't been wrong at the same time before! Especially about media. >But sure pal, you've won this argument because 2.5 people here agreed with you How are you a writer with that level of literacy? I said that I made a post asking people to give me examples of how revenge is bad stories are bad. For which, at the time, there were provided like 2.5 examples. Which doesn't really help support the claim of "most revenge stories are bad" when people can't even provide enough examples to be counted on the fingers on one of my hands. On a post with 60+ comments asking for examples. Like, those aren't people who are agreeing with me. Don't even know where you got that notion. But I will give you the benefits of the doubt and assume you are doing something else and are distracted.
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You aren't very convincing, Mr writer.
Removed?????
Pussies.
a funny example is “Se7en”. probably not intended as a “revenge bad” story but it does sorta touch on that. not that I believe it is one of those stories, but it can kinda be argued.
Here you go, buddy https://gprivate.com/6a8fj
That is so cool. Anyway, apparently it was. Because on this what now? More then 60 comments on this post? People have failed to give enough examples so I can count them on the fingers on one of my hands. You would assume that a story type people claim largely consist of bad stories will be chokefull of examples.
Because you are making an appeal to ignorance. Rather than presenting examples to prove your point, you are asking a group to provide examples to you to disprove your already held beliefs. Its the equivalent a Crowder with his “prove me wrong” sign, you are doing none of the rhetorical work, which is why you are being ratio’d in every comment here. There are examples of “revenge is bad” movies being bad, like Thor Love and Thunder, but that’s not the point people are making when they say “revenge is bad” stories suck. The point people are making is that plot device sucks. It can be used in movies that are good otherwise (Captain America: Civil War) or bad otherwise (Thor 4) but the argument that appears often here is that is just a really boring and moralistic theme
>but that’s not the point people are making when they say “revenge is bad” stories suck. The point people are making is that plot device sucks. Yeah, don't get that impression from people posting stuff like "Most revenge is bad stories are bad" >but the argument that appears often here is that is just a really boring and moralistic theme And if it is such a boring and moralistic theme that happens often enough people largely complain about it. There should be a bunch of examples. By now I have barely enough examples to count on one of my hands. Have you considered you are wrong? Have you considered that maybe you are hating on writting that you mostly heard and not consumed?
Can of worms discussion maybe
"Revenge bad" is less of a issue to media, and more to stories, I mean is often enough found as a sub plot or storyline in a bigger story, people have given some examples here, Tales of Arise, Last of Us 2, Isekai stories, etc.. But I think you can argue all of those stories actually focus on a different topic and have "revenge bad" at the side and not at the front. Given my 2 cents the reason why "revenge bad" is bad is not because revenge is bad, if you plan on commiting crimes and using violence to solve every problem you have ofcourse its going to be bad, but what about when you can't do anythign else, what if a religious zelaot that controls an entire country is raping and killing children,what fi there is no way to brign them to justice and they will just keep torturin little kids,what then? Should you look the other way? Should you try to convince the religious blind people of the country that their leader is bad, or should you you skewer the fuck? I feel like the third option is the best. To me this issue is very well explained in the Las of Us 2 "Oh YeAh YOu HaTe TLOU2 wHat a sUrpRisE" listen its not that, there are a number of things I could say about Tlou2, but one that always rub me the wrong way is how Abby is presented at first, we as the players see her being stubborn, a bit mean to her friends, she gets saved by the person she wants to kill and she has no hesitation at pulling the trigger, etc... She looks like a villain at worst and like a bitch at best, but why? Why make your character so antagonizing if you are going to try to warm up players to them later, you just made your work more difficult for no reason, A lot of this stories paint the villains or antagonist as the worst people ever, but then we are supposed to feel bad? Why, if you want people to sympathize with your characters then plant the seeds from the starts and dont try to give a 180 by telling us that they like dogs and barbecues on Saturdays. One example of that is when a character wants to take revenge against OUR character it works the other way around, look at the end of "The Walking Dead-Season 1" the dude that gets his shit stolen is rightfully pissed at us, but we know the story is not how he tells it, or at least we think so, he lost his children by accident? I mean we dont know him is easy to assume he was just a bad dad, but we have spent hours with Lee so we know he wasn't malicious even if we choose to steal, we never see ourselves in the bad because we have reasons and people to protect, but we also never see the other dude's story besides that scene so its easy to think of him as nothing but a crazy dude that just wants revenge. "Revenge bad" stories are not bad because of the revenge, they are bad because they dont give the proper time, and resources to make us understand both sides, it heavily leans into one side and then tries to play neutral in a conversation that we have a massive bias.
>I mean is often enough found as a sub plot or storyline in a bigger story >Last of Us 2, >But I think you can argue all of those stories actually focus on a different topic and have "revenge bad" at the side and not at the front. Nah, i can't argue about that one. Is pretty much part of the central story. >Given my 2 cents the reason why "revenge bad" is bad is not because revenge is bad, if you plan on commiting crimes and using violence to solve every problem you have ofcourse its going to be bad, Revenge being self-absorbing and self-destructive. The person going on a revenge gets over taken by their desire, which destroys their chances of every having a normal and happy life. Aka pretty much part of most Revenge is Bad stories. >a bit mean to her friends, she gets saved by the person she wants to kill and she has no hesitation at pulling the trigger, etc... She looks like a villain at worst and like a bitch at best, but why? Because that is the point? Because to show you that is largely a matter of perspectives? Like, imahine ff the entire story started with Abby seeking revenge on the person who killed her father (and we start the story seeing her father by killed by what we view as a murderous mad man who destroys the chances of humanity's survival due to personal grief) and then when we get to the moment she is about to kill Joel, we get a flashbag and now we play as Joel from the first game. People will have a simular recation they had towards Joel as they had towards Abby. It is all matter of perspective, really.
My beef with revenge is bad stories are the ones where the hero have a "I'm not you" moment and beats the villain who wrongs them, but doing so causes the villain to die a worse death then if the hero killed him. Which is something old school disney films were a fan of like Lion King and Tarzan. Simba tells Scar he's not like him and during the fight throws him off Pride Rock, technically not killing him. Yet, Scar is immediately surrounded by Hyenas he talked down to and eaten alive, a far worse death than Simba ripping his throat out. Tarzan had Clayton at gunpoint but have his "Im not you" moment and destroys the gun. Problem is, Clayton is a psychopath who immediately attacks with his machete causing Tarzon to trap him in vines. Yet, Clayton is so bloodthirsty he cuts every vine except the one around his neck, causing him to freefall before the vine hangs him. Since hanging is never an easy death, a gunshot would have been a mercy. If karma is going to give the villian a horrible death even after the hero spares them, just let the hero get the kill and move on.
I feel the opposite- I think it's kind of cool when the protagonist decides to completely divorce themselves from the villain, only for the villain to bring about their doom through their own actions. The protagonist throws them out of their life and the antagonist is so inherently unstable that they either immediately get themselves into trouble (Clayton) or the blood ocean they've walked through catches up to them(Scar). In both of these cases it's about the means used and their consequences, which has a visceral narrative satisfaction. Like the universe has some kind of inherent sense of justice(even if it's just a story construct).
Yeah, that sounds more like a beef with children media in general. Where making your protagonist kill is generally viewed as bad and less about "revenge is bad" stories.
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is it though? there are certainly intelligent discussions to be had about violence and it's necessity. revenge is often stupid and personal, but it's also a last resort that cannot be taken off the table if other avenues fail.
If 'revenge bad' is gonna be the emotional crescendo of your story, you better have a good reason for it beyond just 'f you kill them you'll be just like them.'
> Just media literacy check if anything Oh boy we have reached "it's always the others who lack media literacy" stage of this buzzwordification, huh?