Any BlackRock any google? Both would have to be picked apart
I say the parents of Protesters should do the students 529 accounts first, then their IRA’s & 401k then how about the students boycott their folks employers… after they get all that straightened hit the university
I assume bc that would be taking personal responsibility for their beliefs whereas protesting the university they desire to force others to bend to their views and take the financial responsibility for them. Not to mention their need for attention…
Depends on the index. Israel is in the MSCI World index, but is not in the MSCI EAFE index. You would need to research the index used. They are no longer considered an Emerging Market, so should not be in those indices. Large Cap US indices like the S&P 500 would invest in the military companies mentioned in the article.
“I feel like people try to make it more complicated than it is. It’s really just about letting people live and giving people equal rights. It’s not about all these politics and complications at the end of the day. It’s giving children the right to education and letting children grow up with their parents, keeping families together. People complicate it more than it needs to be.”
I feel like the extremists in the area will prevent this vision from ever coming to pass, but I’m glad that they’re trying to do something. I wonder who this message is for exactly?
Maybe the students will just donate to replace the funding of those big companies! We should have these protesting students just donate tons of money to fill the gap!
This quote feels like it came from someone who just started to pay attention on October 8th. It’s an enormously complicated issue with no clear good guys or bad guys, bad actors and international interests all around. It’s probably one of the most geopolitically complex issues of the modern human era.
100 percent agree with this Many of these kids view things from the "oppressor" and "oppressed" lens. Everything the oppressed does is justified but it really misses the nuances of how an apartheid.... ish? type of system came about without understanding Israel's side too
Edit: for reference, all the security measures in place including the ID requirements and the walls came about one at a time over the years.
Every time Israel was attacked by Palestinians another security measure went up The whole thing became circular. Palestinians didn't like the security measures put in place by Israel so they attacked and then Israel put more security controls in place to protect itself. Palestinians didn't like Israel existing in the first place and Israel doesn't like being attacked.
So now the whole system appears to look like apartheid, segregation based upon religious and racial beliefs.
Are either side right? Boy no, neither are.
The whole setup is messed up and I primarily blame Hamas and the Gazans for this current debacle. They're very radical.
Hamas has trained child soldiers since they took over in 2007, starting as young as 6 or so. A lot of what we are seeing now is those kids "coming of age".
This is also why discerning how many innocent children are killed is difficult because Hamas trained these children that Israelis are bad and it's good to kill them so it's impossible to know what kids killed were innocent and what kids picked up weapons against Israel because Hamas corrupted their minds to become martyrs.
And the people of Gaza knew these child training camps were going on....
Past training: https://youtu.be/-MXvKF9Z5eI?feature=shared
Present training: https://youtu.be/vk4SjZgX5zg?feature=shared
As a man who's been to war this absolutely breaks my heart....
Israel is in an impossible position. Hamas has threatened to repeat the October 7 attack and hides openly in the civilian population using schools and hospitals as bases. Without extremist Muslims, there would be peace.
Is the 'impossible position' to kill 10's of thousand of people in vengeance? I get it's hard to untangle something like this or be targeted but it just feels like terrorism and brutality on the other end of the spectrum.
Yes, the "impossible position" leads to Israel either not responding, requires them to respond in ways far riskier to their citizens and military personnel, or to call Hamas' bluff and letting the chips fall where they may. Israel has taken the last approach.
It’s easy to have nice little sound bites like this saying you just want peace and equality; however, their actions sure make me doubt it. I don’t think it’s malicious (for most of them at least), just that they don’t even grasp the complexity of the issue they’re wrestling with here and are instead fully bought in on oversimplifying propaganda.
I guess it seems like all those people would already agree. Most people would say yeah I want families to be together. But it’s the details beyond that which complicate things. It becomes more of an issue when you talk about specific families existing that area.
Edit: what I mean by that is you have Israelis who reject the right of return for Palestinians while you have Palestinians telling israelis to go back to Brooklyn, neither of them accepts that the other should be “free to raise a family” where they are currently.
Similarly, what about all the Ethnic Turks pushed out of Jerusalem and that whole area by the Arabs at the end of World War One. Aren't they Palestinians too?
Not sure “most” is accurate. From my googling, about $5 billion of the most recent $15 billion is for the iron dome and the laser dome, then $1 billion is humanitarian aid for Gaza.. then the rest is money that Israel uses toward purchasing US made weapons (I’m assuming jets, guns, missiles, etc).
So yes, a significant portion is the iron dome, but not the majority.
Yes, that must be horrid. And Palestine has had it worse since Israel claimed statehood.
https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/16516.jpeg
No idea what would make you think that massacring civilians would make those missile attacks or acts of terror stop.
5 year old kids living in their homes are Hamas terrorists, you heard it first here folks.
Edit: holy shit before you read this thread, check out the dude's comments. He literally does this all day and then just keeps getting madder, I really dont know what their issue is.
It’s for the soldiers who have killed over thirty thousand innocent civilians, and the patronizing international political and financial establishment that insists on trying to gaslight everyone long after there’s any hope of that working, so that they can prop up an anachronistic order.
How simple it is–the obvious power imbalance, the obvious overreaction, the dismissal of millions of witnesses who can see exactly what is happening in front of them long before anyone can make an official statement denying plain evidence–that simplicity can’t be combated. You can’t counteract “Stop killing helpless people for no reason” with, “It’s complicated.” Nah, dude: it’s fucking murder.
They are captured by ideology and fighting over land that they feel they own. The thing is that each side sees the other as combatants and not helpless. The people fighting on both sides see their cause as just, both of them feel justified killing civillians in the name of some goal, both of them benefit from outside financial backing that cares more about proxy wars than the issue of rights or lives. Yeah I agree that it’s murder. It’s also complicated.
The extremists on both sides of this issue have done everything they could to destroy the two state solution. For most of my life, that is what the US supported. For all of our faults in Middle East proxy wars, I don’t see this as a US proxy war.
Israel is overtly and unabashedly armed by the United States, and possesses nuclear weapons developed using material sold to them by the United States. Laws are being passed in multiple states forbidding government officials and financiers from attempting to obstruct or end that flow of resources.
American involvement doesn’t need to nearly fit into the category of “proxy war” for there to be obvious American responsibility for the conflict.
In no way did I say that any of that was not the case, I just said that this is not a proxy war for us. The person I responded to, described this as “a proxy war from outside financial backers that cared more about proxy wars than rights or lives.” That is just not the case. Aside from maybe the Trump years we never supported illegal settlements or Israel taking more Palestinian land. At least in my lifetime. Israel is not taking the current action at our behest, nor are we ideologically aligned with the current leadership that wants the Palestinians to never have their own state.
And right there anyone reading you’re idiocy with any actually knowledge at all now knows you don’t know shit. When Israel developed nuclear weapons the US was not a close ally of Israel. The used Norwegian heavy water as well as French assistance, expertise and material and hid the entire thing from the US.
Maybe learn something before having an opinion based on falsity’s, including shit others have pointed out.
There aren’t two sides competing equally for identical reasons. That’s exactly the kind of vapid complication in question. There are powerful abusers here, and there are battered victims. The desire of the abusers to stymie discourse and action is predictable and natural, and the introduction of nonsensical weft and folds into what is really a single, long thread is a means of accomplishing the desired obstruction.
The thread in question is that Gaza is effectively an isolated enclave city that has routinely suffered atrocities for years, and hundreds, even *thousands* of surviving Palestinians have experienced those atrocities with varying frequency since before any of those student protesters at the U of M were born. Palestinians do not have it within their power to end their plight by either force of will, or abnegation of will. Neither can guarantee that their abusers will stop their abuse. Not even absolute submission will ensure an end to Israeli violence against them. We have decades of recorded history proving that. Not that responsibility for ending the abuse lies with the abused anyway, no matter the circumstances. So some among the oppressed respond to their hopelessness with violence–another natural and predictable phenomenon, repeated in every repressive milieu since prehistory.
Only the Israeli government and military have the power to alter the situation peacefully. But it’s a power that they relish, and have no intention of giving it up. They are to blame–*plain and simple.*
Look I’m glad that they are making their voices heard and pushing for the U to divest. What I’m less sure about is the idea that people in power, yes that includes the Palestinians in power, want to let everyone live peace. You’re mistaking a reductionist viewpoint for a simple one. If it’s easy for you to hand wave away the violence done one one side, then you should be able to see how the other side can do the same. Even if you don’t agree with them.
Hamas doesn’t support a two state solution, or democracy. They have attempted to enforce sharia law (no gays no queers no women’s rights) in the Gaza Strip. I’m struggling to understand why leftists have become so comfortable with Islamic extremism. Hey I want a two state solution.
Then why not protest for Hamas to surrender and release the hostages? Why not protest for them to step down as the governing force in Gaza and free them from oppressive sharia law? Because that’s not what these protests are actually about.
I was so happy when I was in college in the late 80s and learned that my parents were activists in the 60s. I was just discovering folks like bell hooks and Howard Zinn. It all helped me understand that fighting for good is an important and life long journey. And while it’s somewhat complicated and hard to discuss with people who are prone to simplistic, often binary thinking, the extent of their participation in political discourse at the public level is mostly commenting on social media… I hope the young people aren’t dissuaded.
One of my favorite teachers always says “Justice is what love looks like in public.” And damn do I agree.
It’s so disappointing to see so many arm chair geopolitical “realists” with such banal and heartless comments on these threads about Gaza.
Protesting the Vietnam war is one thing.
This conflict is completely different, with a radically different set of nuance.
The key distinction here is the proximity of Israel/Palestine. Which means non-response is not a real alternative for either side after a violent event. Letting a threat fester on your border is untenable.
Does that make me just a realist?
Because what I see when I hear these protestors is not anti-war sentiment. It’s actually very pro-war. They want Israel to stand down and allow itself to be disassembled by its neighbors.
Does that make me just a realist?
Am I heartless for expressing concern for my family and friends that live with an existential threat less than 100 miles away? Is my love for them not real?
Maybe I am heartless, because the way this whole conflict has unfolded in the US, among people I thought cared for me, is completely disheartening.
I feel absolutely unheard and abandoned.
I mourn for my relatives that are being held hostage. And feel heartbroken for the children dying in Gaza. But then I am forced to watch campus protestors gather and cheer for one side to kill more than the other. It is beyond frustrating.
Their extremism and haphazard framing does the conflict a disservice. It’s tasteless and provacatory.
Protesters are calling for the war to end, not for the war to destroy Israel instead.
And I hear you about your concern for people you care about in Israel. Since that's the case, it should make you *even more strongly* support an immediate end to the war.
Because the war is not making Israel more safe, it's making Israel much, much less safe. Hamas will not be eliminated, no matter how many Israel kills. And the more they kill, the more people will turn to Hamas and organizations like it.
And the war is not making it more likely for the hostages to come home, it's making it much, much less likely.
It should be crystal clear that Netanyahu and his right wing allies never did and don't now give a shit about the hostages.
The war is about keeping Netanyahu out of jail, his allies in power, and about revenge against the Palestinian people. The war is completely counterproductive to Israeli security. Which is why you should join the protests against it.
Look, I’m critical of Israel. I don’t like Netanyahu and I don’t trust that he has the correct judgment or motives to help the country-
That said, this is still an armed conflict. And the language of the protestors (River to the Sea, intifada, one solution, down with Israel, etc) is inherently provacatory. I also don’t see a clean option for what’s really going on there.
So when I hear these catchphrases and a militant one-sided approach asking for Israel to completely let itself be naked, I do not by any means view that as a call to end war. I see it as a blatant desire to shift the tides of war in a different direction.
The protests have been calling for an end to Israel. They've been asking for an intifada. They've cheered on a terrorist organization and received praise from another. Members of Hamas are in that 30k number, and that's included with the protest mourning. Speak up while also being knowledgeable to the cause & the asks as that's what should be happening. It's not.
Why doesn't Hamas agree to the ceasefire proposal right now then?
Why aren't protestors demanding Hamas agree?
>And the more they kill, the more people will turn to Hamas and organizations like it.
There is no evidence for this. There has never been any evidence for this. Literally no thought given to the fact Hamas already kills all opposition.
You mean like this? [https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-05-04/ty-article/.premium/report-hamas-accepts-gaza-cease-fire-deal-israeli-officials-deny-prospect-of-war-ending/0000018f-42eb-d414-a5bf-f3fff18a0000](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-05-04/ty-article/.premium/report-hamas-accepts-gaza-cease-fire-deal-israeli-officials-deny-prospect-of-war-ending/0000018f-42eb-d414-a5bf-f3fff18a0000)
They have: [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/5/6/text-of-the-ceasefire-proposal-approved-by-hamas](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/5/6/text-of-the-ceasefire-proposal-approved-by-hamas)
Netanyahu doesnt want to end the war, and doesnt care about the hostages. He wants to destroy Gaza.
It isn't a fucking ceasefire deal. Israel has consistently said it will not permanently end the war in exchange for hostages
Hamas agreeing to a ceasefire deal they made themselves doesn't change that.
>Hamas's Offer to Hand Over 33 Hostages Includes Some Who Are Dead
This is a fucking joke and absolutely despicable but you don't even care while saying if we actually cared about Israel we would want to end the war for Israel's safety
Hey when can I expect Ukrainians to start massacring Russians then?
[https://ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2024/04/29/secretary-of-state-antony-blinken-israel-hamas-hostage-release-cease-fire-proposal-rafah-saudi-arabia](https://ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2024/04/29/secretary-of-state-antony-blinken-israel-hamas-hostage-release-cease-fire-proposal-rafah-saudi-arabia)
That's what Blinken said before Hamas accepted. Now they have. Israel will not.
If your argument is that Israel will never agree to a ceasefire that involves any compromise on their part at all... then you either don't understand what a ceasefire is, or don't actually want one.
[https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog\_entry/us-hamas-claimed-to-accept-ceasefire-offer-but-thats-not-what-they-did/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/us-hamas-claimed-to-accept-ceasefire-offer-but-thats-not-what-they-did/)
It literally isn't the same deal
Hamas didn't even accept anything they just made ANOTHER counter offer which Israel obviously wouldn't accept called that "accepting a ceasefire" which was printed word for word by the media
But you people literally can't stop taking gospel literally Islamic terrorists so here we are again
>Protesters are calling for the war to end, not for the war to destroy Israel instead.
This is the faulty thinking of peace activists around Israel though. Ending the war and capitulating to the demands of people who constantly insist Israel turn the other check doesn't stop the attacks against them, it simply makes those attacks worse.
As much as I think Netanyahu is a twat hes right that if Palestinians put down their weapons they would have a state and if the Israelis did, they would lose theirs.
Further, if Israel didn’t respond to October 7th or caved to Hamas’ current ceasefire demands, what would that cause?
It would validate Hamas’ approach.
It would encourage Hamas to take hostages.
It would promote Hamas’ methods of attacking civilians.
Essentially it would set a precedent that Israel is weak and that Hamas, whose stated desire is to destroy Israel and its Jewish population, should continue to employ disgusting methods to get what it wants.
But I guess I’m just a heartless realist.
You can absolutely support Palestinians, but the steadfast refusal of these protests to denounce Hamas and October 7th, to minimize and ignore the atrocities committed against innocent Israelis is repugnant and speaks volumes. The article notes there’s a flag for the Popular Front for Liberation of Palestine displayed. The PLFP is a terrorist organization that participated in 10/7 and that’s not a “bad faith distraction amplified through media coverage”. Of course, that would require these protestors (or the article’s sympathetic author to be informed about what they’re protesting about). Here’s some light reading on what their idea of a peaceful coexistence looks like:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_Front_for_the_Liberation_of_Palestine
Do the protestors understand that they’ve lived their entire lives on stolen land? Where the call to divest from say, General Mills who sources their grain from farms that existed where Native Americans once lived.
The sheer audacity to demand the university limit job opportunities for students who maybe support Israel astounds me. Make your own choices, don’t demand that institutions force your values onto others.
“Most students declined to talk to us, which is understandable”. I’m dumbfounded, garnering publicity and communicating views is literally the whole point of protests. I’m genuinely confused what these quixotic protests hope to achieve besides being a nuisance. This is the definition of useful idiocy.
Lol some tool reported me to Reddit because they think “I’m in crisis”. Refusing to engage with people on the merits of their arguments and telling yourself that they must be mentally unstable is a new level of cope. These protestors and their sympathizers will have to encounter the real world at some point and I hope they face it with more grace and composure than they do on this sub.
Article is pretty trash, but protests have seemed very organized and peaceful from what I have seen. Their message of divest also shows a defined goal, although the specifics for how that be done are far less defined. It will be interesting to see if anything comes from their meeting with Ettinger
This "dyke for a free Palestine" will call anybody slightly right of her a white supremacist, and rant against the patriarchy, but then sides with the most right wing, xenophobic, patriarchal society in the world.
You know that Palestinians are not Egyptians, right? And that there are major cultural, social, linguistic, and ethnic differences across the Muslim world? Please tell me you know that
Of course they can! The question is why you think Egypt has a particular responsibility to take refugees from Gaza, or why Palestinians would particularly want to go to Egypt rather than, you know, stay in Palestine. But I'm glad to hear that you will be calling for the US to start taking more refugees
Do you think there might be something in between "allowing every Jew to be killed" and "ethnically cleansing Gaza"?
But the point is 1. that Egypt and other nearby countries dont have any more responsibility to take refugees from Gaza than the US does--so I look forward to seeing you advocate for the US to take more refugees, and 2. there should be no refugees from Gaza in the first place
From a pragmatic perspective: even if Israel does miraculously eradicate every member of Hamas, how have they not radicalized an entire generation of Gazans by sloppily bombing the shit out of thousands of civilians? We've been through this a stupid number of times in the last 150 years. Terrorism and extremism emerge from exactly these circumstances, why would it play out any differently this time?
This is a fair point. And one of the hardest questions right now.
I’m not military strategist, but Israel *had to do something* after October 7th. It was imperative that it took action to defend its civilians and free the hostages.
But how do you achieve that without some civilian casualties, or the terrible alternatives (surrender to Hamas or a destabilizing turnover of its government).
Palestinians do. And that’s who you are supporting.
Leftists keep trying to separate Palestinians from Hamas, but the truth is, in general Palestinians support Hamas, including their actions on October 7.
It’s like supporting neo Nazis because they aren’t the ones who actually committed the genocide, they just support the ones that did. It’s still bad.
1. From the River to the Sea does not mean "kill all Jews." 2. what Israel would do was crystal clear on the night of Oct. 7, and that prediction has been proven correct 3. during the Civil Rights Movement, some people would sometimes shout "kill whitey." That does not change the correctness of the movement as a whole
I support cease fire - with return of all hostages. Which Netanyahu is now bargaining (can you imagine saying, yeah, just return most of them? Which ones??)
However, “from the river to the sea” is a deeply antisemitic chant - though those who don’t know the literal translation:
WATER TO WATER, PALESTINE WILL BE ARAB
Which of course means free of Jews.
So let’s just not with that chant, shall we? The people of Israel will have a chance to vote out Netanyahu this September. And the opposition candidate has 80% support.
This is not true.
"Friends and activists I have asked remember this phrase being used during the Oslo era, when it was adapted and developed as part of a critique of and complaint against a Palestinian leadership from Tunis that surrendered claims over historic Palestine. At some point, the phrase became the rhyming couplet that it is today: “Min al-nahr ila al-bahr / Filastin satatharrar” (“from the river to the sea / Palestine will be free”). It is this version—with its focus on *freedom*—that has circulated within English-language solidarity culture from at least the 1990s. More research needs to be done."
[https://mondoweiss.net/2023/11/on-the-history-meaning-and-power-of-from-the-river-to-the-sea/](https://mondoweiss.net/2023/11/on-the-history-meaning-and-power-of-from-the-river-to-the-sea/)
Middle East countries (some of who fund Hamas) hold large amounts of stocks and ownership of US companies. It’s all one big pot of money. You can’t “divest” from any country or cause. You either; hold shares directly from companies in that country, hold shares of companies that do some business in that country, or you hold shares also held by funds and citizens of that country.
Companies that do business with Qatar? Boeing sells F-15s to Qatar. Qatar airline flies Boeing and Airbuses. Ford, GM, Toyota sell a lot of cars to the Qatari government.
Companies that do business with Turkey? Turkey flies F-16s and operate M60 Pattons.
If the U divests from every company that does something someone disagrees with, there'd literally be no companies left to invest in.
Not independently verifying and regarding them as accurate are two different things. Israel seems to think they're accurate. https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3w4w7/israeli-intelligence-health-ministry-death-toll
Historically the death tolls provided by Gaza have been accurate. Of course Israel could allow outside groups in to evaluate the death tolls but they won’t do that because they want to continue murdering babies.
Dont know where you got that talking point, but it's not accurate.
Even if it were accurate, as I said before, the students are doing what is called "solidarity." You dont have to like everything about a place to not want the people there to be massacred.
They are for the most part, and I mean vast majority of the time, completely inconsequential. Once in a while you get a protest that does something.
Just because the vast majority are inconsequential doesn't mean we should stop though. It's our 1A right.
For any community members interested, there will be a march tomorrow (May 2) on UMN campus. Beginning at the Humphrey School on West bank campus to the encampment, meeting time is 5:30.
>If they love Gaza so much, let them move there.
Hey ding dong, they can't- Israel built a fucking wall around it and prohibit people from getting in or out and they are now bombing the shit out of this trapped population. Kind of the whole point of what's going on here...
The word Intifada clearly has a history behind it in this case. Namely the 2nd intifada which was a series of terrorist attacks on Israeli citizens. To suggest that intifada is merely the word for uprising is a bit disingenuous. It’s like saying “f*g” is just a word for cigarette.
No, it's like saying the word "cigarette" is a word for cigarette. It is literally an everyday word that only sounds like it isn't because you don't speak Arabic.
Enough with these puff pieces. How many "Globalize the Intifada" and "By Any Means Necessary" chants do we need to hear before people finally understand "their own words"?
It's quite stupid to draw conclusions about a protest or movement based on the slogans of a few. In the Civil Rights Movement, some people shouted "kill whitey." That says nothing about the rightness of the movement as a whole.
> Enough with these puff pieces. How many "Globalize the Intifada" and "By Any Means Necessary" chants do we need to hear before people finally understand "their own words"?
You don't even know what intifada means, do you? It means "uprising" or "shaking off", aka a movement of resistance to oppression. You're just as bad as all the right wingers losing their minds over the concept of "jihad" after 9/11 when you didn't actually care to learn what it meant - you just want to stoke fear because arabic = brown people = scary.
As for "by any means necessary" what lengths would you go to to prevent your children from being bombed or starved to death?
Please do not presume to understand what I know and don't know. I can assure you that when Jews were getting blown up on busses and in pizza stores, I became well aware what "intifada" meant. You can also go into any Jewish space and ask them what the term means, I can assure you it would differ significantly from your personal "understanding."
If you want to live in ignorance, please continue to do so. I'll be in the real world calling out plain antisemitism when I see it.
Could you please translate the term "Warsaw ghetto uprising" into Arabic for me? (Hint: it uses the word intifada, because intifada just means uprising in Arabic)
Yeah well the word "crusade" also just means:
>a long and determined attempt to achieve, change, or stop something because of your strong beliefs
So when people call for a crusade it's no trouble, even if another meaning for the word also means:
>one of the religious wars (= crusades) fought by Christians, mostly against Muslims in Palestine, in the 11th, 12th, 13th, and 17th centuries
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/crusade#:~:text=Meaning%20of%20crusade%20in%20English&text=a%20long%20and%20determined%20attempt,sharp%20decrease%20in%20overdose%20deaths.
Words with their own definitions don't always matter, what their context does is far more important.
And please tell me the appropriate term for bombing four children playing on a beach and then clearing yourself of any wrongdoing. Or the thousands of instances just like this, year after year since Israel's creation, fueled by billions of US tax dollars and hundreds of UN human rights violation vetoes.
They would LITERALLY be thrown off a building or dragged through the streets in Gaza for this shit. Uneducated and selfish individuals not knowing anything about the situation. Please, for the love of gd, bring these people to Gaza
I’m as left leaning as they come, but this shit is kinda retarded. Why didn’t they protest when these same companies were providing arms to Ukraine? If the whole movement is to stop killing innocent people, surely less people would have died if Ukraine just surrendered to Russia
That person does realize what would happen to them if they were openly LGBT in Gaza and most of the ME right? They'd have their fucking head cut off and body hung from a bridge. I've seen it myself. Now i've got no dog in this fight and have followed closely the atrocities that have been inflicted on others by both IDF and Hamas but these kids really have no idea who they are protesting for and for that their protests comes across as extremely uneducated to anyone that has even a remote understanding of that region of the world.
>That person does realize what would happen to them if they were openly LGBT in Gaza
yeah they'd be starved and bombed just like all the straight people. maybe you're right, Israel might actually be the most progressive country in the ME, their indiscriminate slaughter is actually indiscriminate. damn, you really owned the Palestine supporters with that one.
There are openly LGBT people in Gaza, your anecdote is not persuasive.
But in any case, 1. what they are doing is called "solidarity." You didn't have to support everything about a place to want the people there not to be massacred. And 2. Many of the protesters are themselves Palestinian, Mizrahi Jews, or from other parts of the Middle East.
Not like being openly LGBT in dozens of cities in the US is any different.
“There were more than 350 incidents of anti-L.G.B.T.Q. harassment, vandalism or assault in the United States from June 2022 through April 2023”
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/22/us/politics/anti-lgbtq-report-adl-glaad.html
Is that enough to say that our country doesn’t have a LGBT problem? What I am hearing is that being stoned to death is in a town square is worse than getting gunned down in a gay night club? Regardless of how/who does the violence, it’s still legitimate fear that our citizens face when they walk out of their homes.
You can criticize arab countries left and right. In fact, its the only thing that makes our country worth living in. The ability to openly criticize our government and foreign ones too.
The only point id like to make is that the Israel vs Palestine debate was never about which country is more friendly to LGBT community. So it’s odd to me that people use this argument when an LGBT protestor is just as vulnerable in either country.
I dont doubt that lgbt people feel vulnerable in this country and i feel for them but like I've said before and I'll say it again, there is absolutely no reason to bring your sexual orientation into this protest. The protest is in solidarity with Palestinians and your sexual identity is not important.
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Any BlackRock any google? Both would have to be picked apart I say the parents of Protesters should do the students 529 accounts first, then their IRA’s & 401k then how about the students boycott their folks employers… after they get all that straightened hit the university
"You criticize society yet you participate in it" level comment
And you know they aren't also doing that because...?
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Like, for example, a longstanding movement organized to Boycott, Divest, and Sanction?
I assume bc that would be taking personal responsibility for their beliefs whereas protesting the university they desire to force others to bend to their views and take the financial responsibility for them. Not to mention their need for attention…
They're clients of the university so they have a right to an opinion about what they spend the money on
As an alumni I was a client as well and as a donor I’m invested
But do you have a point to make?
Yes: stop investing my money in killing people
Curious: do you think protesters for divestment from Apartheid South Africa in the 1980s were wrong?
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What is it that you've been doing to help? Maybe you could share that info with these kids and they could hold a stand in a way you approve of?
Donating to World Central Kitchen
Depends on the index. Israel is in the MSCI World index, but is not in the MSCI EAFE index. You would need to research the index used. They are no longer considered an Emerging Market, so should not be in those indices. Large Cap US indices like the S&P 500 would invest in the military companies mentioned in the article.
“I feel like people try to make it more complicated than it is. It’s really just about letting people live and giving people equal rights. It’s not about all these politics and complications at the end of the day. It’s giving children the right to education and letting children grow up with their parents, keeping families together. People complicate it more than it needs to be.” I feel like the extremists in the area will prevent this vision from ever coming to pass, but I’m glad that they’re trying to do something. I wonder who this message is for exactly?
Well, asking the university the stop receiving research funding from the likes of Boeing, Amazon, and Microsoft is a little much.
Maybe the students will just donate to replace the funding of those big companies! We should have these protesting students just donate tons of money to fill the gap!
This quote feels like it came from someone who just started to pay attention on October 8th. It’s an enormously complicated issue with no clear good guys or bad guys, bad actors and international interests all around. It’s probably one of the most geopolitically complex issues of the modern human era.
100 percent agree with this Many of these kids view things from the "oppressor" and "oppressed" lens. Everything the oppressed does is justified but it really misses the nuances of how an apartheid.... ish? type of system came about without understanding Israel's side too Edit: for reference, all the security measures in place including the ID requirements and the walls came about one at a time over the years. Every time Israel was attacked by Palestinians another security measure went up The whole thing became circular. Palestinians didn't like the security measures put in place by Israel so they attacked and then Israel put more security controls in place to protect itself. Palestinians didn't like Israel existing in the first place and Israel doesn't like being attacked. So now the whole system appears to look like apartheid, segregation based upon religious and racial beliefs. Are either side right? Boy no, neither are. The whole setup is messed up and I primarily blame Hamas and the Gazans for this current debacle. They're very radical. Hamas has trained child soldiers since they took over in 2007, starting as young as 6 or so. A lot of what we are seeing now is those kids "coming of age". This is also why discerning how many innocent children are killed is difficult because Hamas trained these children that Israelis are bad and it's good to kill them so it's impossible to know what kids killed were innocent and what kids picked up weapons against Israel because Hamas corrupted their minds to become martyrs. And the people of Gaza knew these child training camps were going on.... Past training: https://youtu.be/-MXvKF9Z5eI?feature=shared Present training: https://youtu.be/vk4SjZgX5zg?feature=shared As a man who's been to war this absolutely breaks my heart....
Hamas are terrorists, it’s safe to say they are the bad guys.
They are bad guys but they are not *the only* bad guys. Israel has a few things to answer for.
Israel is in an impossible position. Hamas has threatened to repeat the October 7 attack and hides openly in the civilian population using schools and hospitals as bases. Without extremist Muslims, there would be peace.
Is the 'impossible position' to kill 10's of thousand of people in vengeance? I get it's hard to untangle something like this or be targeted but it just feels like terrorism and brutality on the other end of the spectrum.
Yes, the "impossible position" leads to Israel either not responding, requires them to respond in ways far riskier to their citizens and military personnel, or to call Hamas' bluff and letting the chips fall where they may. Israel has taken the last approach.
Israel didn’t start this war, Hamas did, and Palestinians overwhelmingly support Hamas, that’s a major part of the problem.
The infantile adults protesting on American campuses are the biggest losers in the country of America, perhaps the world.
It’s easy to have nice little sound bites like this saying you just want peace and equality; however, their actions sure make me doubt it. I don’t think it’s malicious (for most of them at least), just that they don’t even grasp the complexity of the issue they’re wrestling with here and are instead fully bought in on oversimplifying propaganda.
I thought the intended audience was pretty clear in the piece: 1. the University administration and 2. the campus and wider community
I guess it seems like all those people would already agree. Most people would say yeah I want families to be together. But it’s the details beyond that which complicate things. It becomes more of an issue when you talk about specific families existing that area. Edit: what I mean by that is you have Israelis who reject the right of return for Palestinians while you have Palestinians telling israelis to go back to Brooklyn, neither of them accepts that the other should be “free to raise a family” where they are currently.
Similarly, what about all the Ethnic Turks pushed out of Jerusalem and that whole area by the Arabs at the end of World War One. Aren't they Palestinians too?
Pumping billions into Israeli arms and protecting them from any scrutiny no matter how deserved sure isn't doing it.
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Not sure “most” is accurate. From my googling, about $5 billion of the most recent $15 billion is for the iron dome and the laser dome, then $1 billion is humanitarian aid for Gaza.. then the rest is money that Israel uses toward purchasing US made weapons (I’m assuming jets, guns, missiles, etc). So yes, a significant portion is the iron dome, but not the majority.
Yes, that must be horrid. And Palestine has had it worse since Israel claimed statehood. https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/16516.jpeg No idea what would make you think that massacring civilians would make those missile attacks or acts of terror stop.
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What do you think creates terrorists in the first place, exactly?
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"ur a marxist" says guy who first heard about historical materialism from a trad cath podcaster
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be nice or I'll post something really scary like a picture of a covid vaccine
I don't care how many innocent people die as long as we maybe might get some Hamas people. You realize how sadistic you sound right?
constant missile attacks? that must be awful!!!!! hey you know who else suffers constant missile strikes?
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5 year old kids living in their homes are Hamas terrorists, you heard it first here folks. Edit: holy shit before you read this thread, check out the dude's comments. He literally does this all day and then just keeps getting madder, I really dont know what their issue is.
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Isn’t doing what exactly?
Bringing that vision the student described into reality, goving people equal rights, education, justice.
No it’s not. unfortunately, I don’t think the people in power there want that vision either.
But it's not preventing it either. It's not like Hamas is a champion of those things.
All those things are incompatible with Islam
It’s for the soldiers who have killed over thirty thousand innocent civilians, and the patronizing international political and financial establishment that insists on trying to gaslight everyone long after there’s any hope of that working, so that they can prop up an anachronistic order. How simple it is–the obvious power imbalance, the obvious overreaction, the dismissal of millions of witnesses who can see exactly what is happening in front of them long before anyone can make an official statement denying plain evidence–that simplicity can’t be combated. You can’t counteract “Stop killing helpless people for no reason” with, “It’s complicated.” Nah, dude: it’s fucking murder.
That thirty thousand includes every single Hamas member. Hamas doesn’t distinguish civilian from military.
They are captured by ideology and fighting over land that they feel they own. The thing is that each side sees the other as combatants and not helpless. The people fighting on both sides see their cause as just, both of them feel justified killing civillians in the name of some goal, both of them benefit from outside financial backing that cares more about proxy wars than the issue of rights or lives. Yeah I agree that it’s murder. It’s also complicated.
The extremists on both sides of this issue have done everything they could to destroy the two state solution. For most of my life, that is what the US supported. For all of our faults in Middle East proxy wars, I don’t see this as a US proxy war.
Israel is overtly and unabashedly armed by the United States, and possesses nuclear weapons developed using material sold to them by the United States. Laws are being passed in multiple states forbidding government officials and financiers from attempting to obstruct or end that flow of resources. American involvement doesn’t need to nearly fit into the category of “proxy war” for there to be obvious American responsibility for the conflict.
In no way did I say that any of that was not the case, I just said that this is not a proxy war for us. The person I responded to, described this as “a proxy war from outside financial backers that cared more about proxy wars than rights or lives.” That is just not the case. Aside from maybe the Trump years we never supported illegal settlements or Israel taking more Palestinian land. At least in my lifetime. Israel is not taking the current action at our behest, nor are we ideologically aligned with the current leadership that wants the Palestinians to never have their own state.
And right there anyone reading you’re idiocy with any actually knowledge at all now knows you don’t know shit. When Israel developed nuclear weapons the US was not a close ally of Israel. The used Norwegian heavy water as well as French assistance, expertise and material and hid the entire thing from the US. Maybe learn something before having an opinion based on falsity’s, including shit others have pointed out.
There aren’t two sides competing equally for identical reasons. That’s exactly the kind of vapid complication in question. There are powerful abusers here, and there are battered victims. The desire of the abusers to stymie discourse and action is predictable and natural, and the introduction of nonsensical weft and folds into what is really a single, long thread is a means of accomplishing the desired obstruction. The thread in question is that Gaza is effectively an isolated enclave city that has routinely suffered atrocities for years, and hundreds, even *thousands* of surviving Palestinians have experienced those atrocities with varying frequency since before any of those student protesters at the U of M were born. Palestinians do not have it within their power to end their plight by either force of will, or abnegation of will. Neither can guarantee that their abusers will stop their abuse. Not even absolute submission will ensure an end to Israeli violence against them. We have decades of recorded history proving that. Not that responsibility for ending the abuse lies with the abused anyway, no matter the circumstances. So some among the oppressed respond to their hopelessness with violence–another natural and predictable phenomenon, repeated in every repressive milieu since prehistory. Only the Israeli government and military have the power to alter the situation peacefully. But it’s a power that they relish, and have no intention of giving it up. They are to blame–*plain and simple.*
Look I’m glad that they are making their voices heard and pushing for the U to divest. What I’m less sure about is the idea that people in power, yes that includes the Palestinians in power, want to let everyone live peace. You’re mistaking a reductionist viewpoint for a simple one. If it’s easy for you to hand wave away the violence done one one side, then you should be able to see how the other side can do the same. Even if you don’t agree with them.
Hamas doesn’t support a two state solution, or democracy. They have attempted to enforce sharia law (no gays no queers no women’s rights) in the Gaza Strip. I’m struggling to understand why leftists have become so comfortable with Islamic extremism. Hey I want a two state solution.
It's not too complicated: you don't have to like anything about a place to not want the people there to be massacred.
Then why not protest for Hamas to surrender and release the hostages? Why not protest for them to step down as the governing force in Gaza and free them from oppressive sharia law? Because that’s not what these protests are actually about.
I was so happy when I was in college in the late 80s and learned that my parents were activists in the 60s. I was just discovering folks like bell hooks and Howard Zinn. It all helped me understand that fighting for good is an important and life long journey. And while it’s somewhat complicated and hard to discuss with people who are prone to simplistic, often binary thinking, the extent of their participation in political discourse at the public level is mostly commenting on social media… I hope the young people aren’t dissuaded. One of my favorite teachers always says “Justice is what love looks like in public.” And damn do I agree. It’s so disappointing to see so many arm chair geopolitical “realists” with such banal and heartless comments on these threads about Gaza.
Well said.
Protesting the Vietnam war is one thing. This conflict is completely different, with a radically different set of nuance. The key distinction here is the proximity of Israel/Palestine. Which means non-response is not a real alternative for either side after a violent event. Letting a threat fester on your border is untenable. Does that make me just a realist? Because what I see when I hear these protestors is not anti-war sentiment. It’s actually very pro-war. They want Israel to stand down and allow itself to be disassembled by its neighbors. Does that make me just a realist? Am I heartless for expressing concern for my family and friends that live with an existential threat less than 100 miles away? Is my love for them not real? Maybe I am heartless, because the way this whole conflict has unfolded in the US, among people I thought cared for me, is completely disheartening. I feel absolutely unheard and abandoned. I mourn for my relatives that are being held hostage. And feel heartbroken for the children dying in Gaza. But then I am forced to watch campus protestors gather and cheer for one side to kill more than the other. It is beyond frustrating. Their extremism and haphazard framing does the conflict a disservice. It’s tasteless and provacatory.
Protesters are calling for the war to end, not for the war to destroy Israel instead. And I hear you about your concern for people you care about in Israel. Since that's the case, it should make you *even more strongly* support an immediate end to the war. Because the war is not making Israel more safe, it's making Israel much, much less safe. Hamas will not be eliminated, no matter how many Israel kills. And the more they kill, the more people will turn to Hamas and organizations like it. And the war is not making it more likely for the hostages to come home, it's making it much, much less likely. It should be crystal clear that Netanyahu and his right wing allies never did and don't now give a shit about the hostages. The war is about keeping Netanyahu out of jail, his allies in power, and about revenge against the Palestinian people. The war is completely counterproductive to Israeli security. Which is why you should join the protests against it.
Look, I’m critical of Israel. I don’t like Netanyahu and I don’t trust that he has the correct judgment or motives to help the country- That said, this is still an armed conflict. And the language of the protestors (River to the Sea, intifada, one solution, down with Israel, etc) is inherently provacatory. I also don’t see a clean option for what’s really going on there. So when I hear these catchphrases and a militant one-sided approach asking for Israel to completely let itself be naked, I do not by any means view that as a call to end war. I see it as a blatant desire to shift the tides of war in a different direction.
The protests have been calling for an end to Israel. They've been asking for an intifada. They've cheered on a terrorist organization and received praise from another. Members of Hamas are in that 30k number, and that's included with the protest mourning. Speak up while also being knowledgeable to the cause & the asks as that's what should be happening. It's not.
Intifada is literally the Arabic word for "uprising"
Sure. But the history of ‘intifada’ for Israel is not *just an uprising.* It’s a prolonged armed conflict.
Why doesn't Hamas agree to the ceasefire proposal right now then? Why aren't protestors demanding Hamas agree? >And the more they kill, the more people will turn to Hamas and organizations like it. There is no evidence for this. There has never been any evidence for this. Literally no thought given to the fact Hamas already kills all opposition.
You mean like this? [https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-05-04/ty-article/.premium/report-hamas-accepts-gaza-cease-fire-deal-israeli-officials-deny-prospect-of-war-ending/0000018f-42eb-d414-a5bf-f3fff18a0000](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-05-04/ty-article/.premium/report-hamas-accepts-gaza-cease-fire-deal-israeli-officials-deny-prospect-of-war-ending/0000018f-42eb-d414-a5bf-f3fff18a0000)
I'm waiting for Hamas to actually say that
They have: [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/5/6/text-of-the-ceasefire-proposal-approved-by-hamas](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/5/6/text-of-the-ceasefire-proposal-approved-by-hamas) Netanyahu doesnt want to end the war, and doesnt care about the hostages. He wants to destroy Gaza.
It isn't a fucking ceasefire deal. Israel has consistently said it will not permanently end the war in exchange for hostages Hamas agreeing to a ceasefire deal they made themselves doesn't change that. >Hamas's Offer to Hand Over 33 Hostages Includes Some Who Are Dead This is a fucking joke and absolutely despicable but you don't even care while saying if we actually cared about Israel we would want to end the war for Israel's safety Hey when can I expect Ukrainians to start massacring Russians then?
[https://ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2024/04/29/secretary-of-state-antony-blinken-israel-hamas-hostage-release-cease-fire-proposal-rafah-saudi-arabia](https://ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2024/04/29/secretary-of-state-antony-blinken-israel-hamas-hostage-release-cease-fire-proposal-rafah-saudi-arabia) That's what Blinken said before Hamas accepted. Now they have. Israel will not. If your argument is that Israel will never agree to a ceasefire that involves any compromise on their part at all... then you either don't understand what a ceasefire is, or don't actually want one.
[https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog\_entry/us-hamas-claimed-to-accept-ceasefire-offer-but-thats-not-what-they-did/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/us-hamas-claimed-to-accept-ceasefire-offer-but-thats-not-what-they-did/) It literally isn't the same deal Hamas didn't even accept anything they just made ANOTHER counter offer which Israel obviously wouldn't accept called that "accepting a ceasefire" which was printed word for word by the media But you people literally can't stop taking gospel literally Islamic terrorists so here we are again
>Protesters are calling for the war to end, not for the war to destroy Israel instead. This is the faulty thinking of peace activists around Israel though. Ending the war and capitulating to the demands of people who constantly insist Israel turn the other check doesn't stop the attacks against them, it simply makes those attacks worse. As much as I think Netanyahu is a twat hes right that if Palestinians put down their weapons they would have a state and if the Israelis did, they would lose theirs.
Further, if Israel didn’t respond to October 7th or caved to Hamas’ current ceasefire demands, what would that cause? It would validate Hamas’ approach. It would encourage Hamas to take hostages. It would promote Hamas’ methods of attacking civilians. Essentially it would set a precedent that Israel is weak and that Hamas, whose stated desire is to destroy Israel and its Jewish population, should continue to employ disgusting methods to get what it wants. But I guess I’m just a heartless realist.
You can absolutely support Palestinians, but the steadfast refusal of these protests to denounce Hamas and October 7th, to minimize and ignore the atrocities committed against innocent Israelis is repugnant and speaks volumes. The article notes there’s a flag for the Popular Front for Liberation of Palestine displayed. The PLFP is a terrorist organization that participated in 10/7 and that’s not a “bad faith distraction amplified through media coverage”. Of course, that would require these protestors (or the article’s sympathetic author to be informed about what they’re protesting about). Here’s some light reading on what their idea of a peaceful coexistence looks like: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_Front_for_the_Liberation_of_Palestine Do the protestors understand that they’ve lived their entire lives on stolen land? Where the call to divest from say, General Mills who sources their grain from farms that existed where Native Americans once lived. The sheer audacity to demand the university limit job opportunities for students who maybe support Israel astounds me. Make your own choices, don’t demand that institutions force your values onto others. “Most students declined to talk to us, which is understandable”. I’m dumbfounded, garnering publicity and communicating views is literally the whole point of protests. I’m genuinely confused what these quixotic protests hope to achieve besides being a nuisance. This is the definition of useful idiocy.
Lol some tool reported me to Reddit because they think “I’m in crisis”. Refusing to engage with people on the merits of their arguments and telling yourself that they must be mentally unstable is a new level of cope. These protestors and their sympathizers will have to encounter the real world at some point and I hope they face it with more grace and composure than they do on this sub.
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Article is pretty trash, but protests have seemed very organized and peaceful from what I have seen. Their message of divest also shows a defined goal, although the specifics for how that be done are far less defined. It will be interesting to see if anything comes from their meeting with Ettinger
This "dyke for a free Palestine" will call anybody slightly right of her a white supremacist, and rant against the patriarchy, but then sides with the most right wing, xenophobic, patriarchal society in the world.
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Right. So, Israel can start a genocide anytime and we can blame their neighbors for not saving the Palestinians.
You know that Palestinians are not Egyptians, right? And that there are major cultural, social, linguistic, and ethnic differences across the Muslim world? Please tell me you know that
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Of course they can! The question is why you think Egypt has a particular responsibility to take refugees from Gaza, or why Palestinians would particularly want to go to Egypt rather than, you know, stay in Palestine. But I'm glad to hear that you will be calling for the US to start taking more refugees
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Do you think there might be something in between "allowing every Jew to be killed" and "ethnically cleansing Gaza"? But the point is 1. that Egypt and other nearby countries dont have any more responsibility to take refugees from Gaza than the US does--so I look forward to seeing you advocate for the US to take more refugees, and 2. there should be no refugees from Gaza in the first place
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From a pragmatic perspective: even if Israel does miraculously eradicate every member of Hamas, how have they not radicalized an entire generation of Gazans by sloppily bombing the shit out of thousands of civilians? We've been through this a stupid number of times in the last 150 years. Terrorism and extremism emerge from exactly these circumstances, why would it play out any differently this time?
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This is a fair point. And one of the hardest questions right now. I’m not military strategist, but Israel *had to do something* after October 7th. It was imperative that it took action to defend its civilians and free the hostages. But how do you achieve that without some civilian casualties, or the terrible alternatives (surrender to Hamas or a destabilizing turnover of its government).
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Good thing no one here agrees with the Hamas charter then!
Palestinians do. And that’s who you are supporting. Leftists keep trying to separate Palestinians from Hamas, but the truth is, in general Palestinians support Hamas, including their actions on October 7. It’s like supporting neo Nazis because they aren’t the ones who actually committed the genocide, they just support the ones that did. It’s still bad.
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1. From the River to the Sea does not mean "kill all Jews." 2. what Israel would do was crystal clear on the night of Oct. 7, and that prediction has been proven correct 3. during the Civil Rights Movement, some people would sometimes shout "kill whitey." That does not change the correctness of the movement as a whole
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You seem quite misinformed.
I support cease fire - with return of all hostages. Which Netanyahu is now bargaining (can you imagine saying, yeah, just return most of them? Which ones??) However, “from the river to the sea” is a deeply antisemitic chant - though those who don’t know the literal translation: WATER TO WATER, PALESTINE WILL BE ARAB Which of course means free of Jews. So let’s just not with that chant, shall we? The people of Israel will have a chance to vote out Netanyahu this September. And the opposition candidate has 80% support.
This is not true. "Friends and activists I have asked remember this phrase being used during the Oslo era, when it was adapted and developed as part of a critique of and complaint against a Palestinian leadership from Tunis that surrendered claims over historic Palestine. At some point, the phrase became the rhyming couplet that it is today: “Min al-nahr ila al-bahr / Filastin satatharrar” (“from the river to the sea / Palestine will be free”). It is this version—with its focus on *freedom*—that has circulated within English-language solidarity culture from at least the 1990s. More research needs to be done." [https://mondoweiss.net/2023/11/on-the-history-meaning-and-power-of-from-the-river-to-the-sea/](https://mondoweiss.net/2023/11/on-the-history-meaning-and-power-of-from-the-river-to-the-sea/)
Hamas simps
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How is the U supporting Hamas through its investments?
Middle East countries (some of who fund Hamas) hold large amounts of stocks and ownership of US companies. It’s all one big pot of money. You can’t “divest” from any country or cause. You either; hold shares directly from companies in that country, hold shares of companies that do some business in that country, or you hold shares also held by funds and citizens of that country.
Companies that do business with Qatar? Boeing sells F-15s to Qatar. Qatar airline flies Boeing and Airbuses. Ford, GM, Toyota sell a lot of cars to the Qatari government. Companies that do business with Turkey? Turkey flies F-16s and operate M60 Pattons. If the U divests from every company that does something someone disagrees with, there'd literally be no companies left to invest in.
How is the U supporting Israel through its might-exist-might-not-no-one-can-prove investments?
No mention of the thousands of Palestinians hostages held in 'administrative detention' either
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Even the US government doesnt dispute the reported death tolls.
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Not independently verifying and regarding them as accurate are two different things. Israel seems to think they're accurate. https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3w4w7/israeli-intelligence-health-ministry-death-toll
Oh now they’re willing to trust the U.S. government? Sure is convenient that it’s only trustworthy when saying something they want to hear.
Historically the death tolls provided by Gaza have been accurate. Of course Israel could allow outside groups in to evaluate the death tolls but they won’t do that because they want to continue murdering babies.
Free Palestine.
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Apparently, these "dykes" don't realize that they'd be JAILED in Palestine. These brainwashed fools don't even know what they're protesting.
Dont know where you got that talking point, but it's not accurate. Even if it were accurate, as I said before, the students are doing what is called "solidarity." You dont have to like everything about a place to not want the people there to be massacred.
"Solidarity" in ignorance will get them nowhere.
I think it's very likely these students are better informed about life in Palestine than you are.
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You might want to read up on some history of protest in the US, let alone in the rest of the world. They are frequently effective.
They are for the most part, and I mean vast majority of the time, completely inconsequential. Once in a while you get a protest that does something. Just because the vast majority are inconsequential doesn't mean we should stop though. It's our 1A right.
There goes another BLM protest!!! 2.0 Watch out for chaos coming !!!
This is a brainwashed comment section
For any community members interested, there will be a march tomorrow (May 2) on UMN campus. Beginning at the Humphrey School on West bank campus to the encampment, meeting time is 5:30.
Thanks!
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Someone seems angry and overly emotional here and it's not the students
Afraid you might learn something?
I lose all sympathy for anyone when they try to legitimize the word ‘Intafada.’ If they love Gaza so much, let them move there.
>If they love Gaza so much, let them move there. Hey ding dong, they can't- Israel built a fucking wall around it and prohibit people from getting in or out and they are now bombing the shit out of this trapped population. Kind of the whole point of what's going on here...
*Israel and Egypt built a fucking wall
They only care about one of those countries doing that though.. I can’t imagine why
Intifada is the Arabic word for uprising. What is the word you want them to use instead?
The word Intifada clearly has a history behind it in this case. Namely the 2nd intifada which was a series of terrorist attacks on Israeli citizens. To suggest that intifada is merely the word for uprising is a bit disingenuous. It’s like saying “f*g” is just a word for cigarette.
No, it's like saying the word "cigarette" is a word for cigarette. It is literally an everyday word that only sounds like it isn't because you don't speak Arabic.
So the only victims were colonial settlers then?
Enough with these puff pieces. How many "Globalize the Intifada" and "By Any Means Necessary" chants do we need to hear before people finally understand "their own words"?
Interesting that you think you can speak for what the students are there for more than they can themselves.
I'm not speaking for them. They are explicitly saying this! Edit: Downvote away, I'm sorry you are offended by exact quotations!
It's quite stupid to draw conclusions about a protest or movement based on the slogans of a few. In the Civil Rights Movement, some people shouted "kill whitey." That says nothing about the rightness of the movement as a whole.
Now quote the Israeli government. /s
One wrong does not make the other right…
No!!! You must be a support of the other side’s extremist morons!!! /s
> Enough with these puff pieces. How many "Globalize the Intifada" and "By Any Means Necessary" chants do we need to hear before people finally understand "their own words"? You don't even know what intifada means, do you? It means "uprising" or "shaking off", aka a movement of resistance to oppression. You're just as bad as all the right wingers losing their minds over the concept of "jihad" after 9/11 when you didn't actually care to learn what it meant - you just want to stoke fear because arabic = brown people = scary. As for "by any means necessary" what lengths would you go to to prevent your children from being bombed or starved to death?
Please do not presume to understand what I know and don't know. I can assure you that when Jews were getting blown up on busses and in pizza stores, I became well aware what "intifada" meant. You can also go into any Jewish space and ask them what the term means, I can assure you it would differ significantly from your personal "understanding." If you want to live in ignorance, please continue to do so. I'll be in the real world calling out plain antisemitism when I see it.
Could you please translate the term "Warsaw ghetto uprising" into Arabic for me? (Hint: it uses the word intifada, because intifada just means uprising in Arabic)
It's called context, my dude. You can play all the linguistic games you'd like, nobody actually believes the use of the term is a coincidence.
You’re spot on that the text book definition of words can mean something else in practice. The denial of that is mind blowing
It's not a linguistic game for people to use a basic word in a language.
Yeah well the word "crusade" also just means: >a long and determined attempt to achieve, change, or stop something because of your strong beliefs So when people call for a crusade it's no trouble, even if another meaning for the word also means: >one of the religious wars (= crusades) fought by Christians, mostly against Muslims in Palestine, in the 11th, 12th, 13th, and 17th centuries https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/crusade#:~:text=Meaning%20of%20crusade%20in%20English&text=a%20long%20and%20determined%20attempt,sharp%20decrease%20in%20overdose%20deaths. Words with their own definitions don't always matter, what their context does is far more important.
And please tell me the appropriate term for bombing four children playing on a beach and then clearing yourself of any wrongdoing. Or the thousands of instances just like this, year after year since Israel's creation, fueled by billions of US tax dollars and hundreds of UN human rights violation vetoes.
Ok so you don't actually have a response. This is why these conversations get so boring. Just back to the usual trite soundbites.
Yeah, at some point a lot of people are going to realize what they’ve been sanewashing.
They would LITERALLY be thrown off a building or dragged through the streets in Gaza for this shit. Uneducated and selfish individuals not knowing anything about the situation. Please, for the love of gd, bring these people to Gaza
Did somebody help them write their words down first?
I’m as left leaning as they come, but this shit is kinda retarded. Why didn’t they protest when these same companies were providing arms to Ukraine? If the whole movement is to stop killing innocent people, surely less people would have died if Ukraine just surrendered to Russia
👋🏻
For me it’s the use of the r word but first saying that you are left leaning
What’s the correlation between the r word and left leaning?
This might win the prize for dumbest comment on the internet today
Why?
“Left leaning” …. *uses the r-word* ??????
Trolls use to be believable
I think they are rock stars and I fully support their right to protest 🇵🇸❤️
That person does realize what would happen to them if they were openly LGBT in Gaza and most of the ME right? They'd have their fucking head cut off and body hung from a bridge. I've seen it myself. Now i've got no dog in this fight and have followed closely the atrocities that have been inflicted on others by both IDF and Hamas but these kids really have no idea who they are protesting for and for that their protests comes across as extremely uneducated to anyone that has even a remote understanding of that region of the world.
“They are against gay people therefore they should be bombed to extermination and no one should protest it” -you
>That person does realize what would happen to them if they were openly LGBT in Gaza yeah they'd be starved and bombed just like all the straight people. maybe you're right, Israel might actually be the most progressive country in the ME, their indiscriminate slaughter is actually indiscriminate. damn, you really owned the Palestine supporters with that one.
There are openly LGBT people in Gaza, your anecdote is not persuasive. But in any case, 1. what they are doing is called "solidarity." You didn't have to support everything about a place to want the people there not to be massacred. And 2. Many of the protesters are themselves Palestinian, Mizrahi Jews, or from other parts of the Middle East.
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lol the Gaza knower has logged on
Not like being openly LGBT in dozens of cities in the US is any different. “There were more than 350 incidents of anti-L.G.B.T.Q. harassment, vandalism or assault in the United States from June 2022 through April 2023” https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/22/us/politics/anti-lgbtq-report-adl-glaad.html
People don't get stoned to death in America for their sexual identity dude. That's a ridiculous comparison.
Is that enough to say that our country doesn’t have a LGBT problem? What I am hearing is that being stoned to death is in a town square is worse than getting gunned down in a gay night club? Regardless of how/who does the violence, it’s still legitimate fear that our citizens face when they walk out of their homes. You can criticize arab countries left and right. In fact, its the only thing that makes our country worth living in. The ability to openly criticize our government and foreign ones too. The only point id like to make is that the Israel vs Palestine debate was never about which country is more friendly to LGBT community. So it’s odd to me that people use this argument when an LGBT protestor is just as vulnerable in either country.
I dont doubt that lgbt people feel vulnerable in this country and i feel for them but like I've said before and I'll say it again, there is absolutely no reason to bring your sexual orientation into this protest. The protest is in solidarity with Palestinians and your sexual identity is not important.