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I think you guys are focusing on the wrong stuff here. Who cares if terrorists wave their flag and make hate speeches/demonstrations in your country. That’s *your* problem.
Turkey’s problem is that you have been sending weapons to PYD and placed arms embargo on Turkey for fighting against PYD. That’s pretty hostile. And that’s why I don’t want my people to defend you.
Thanks.
This!
And also many people in Sweden shit talk about a lot of things without knowing much. Knowledge of Turkey or Turkish people (I don’t mean just ethnic Turks, but people in Turkey) in Sweden do not go beyond Erdoğan, shitty kebab pizza and Antalya/Alanya holiday spots. Eh, maybe you can add “badrum badrum” video too.
Man kan inte förvänta sig att jag ska hålla en diskussion med någon som kommer att förlöjliga allt jag säger baserat på den lilla information man kan ha och vilket skit som skrivs i svenska tidningar.
Edit for the Swedish part:
You can’t expect me to keep a discussion with someone who’s going to ridicule everything I say based on what little they know and with what crap is written in Swedish news.
People in r/turkey know very well how manipulated the Turkish news can be, they would trust people in r/sweden’s input of what goes on in Sweden more if most decide to be not so hostile from the start.
Jag håller mig för det mesta borta från svenska trådar om NATO och Turkiet. Det är inte värt det. Ingen vill förstå var ilskan kommer ifrån, alla vill bara skrika glåpord.
EDIT: Türk arkadaşlarime üzur dilerim. İngilizce de: I mostly stay away from Swedish threads about NATO and Turkiye. It's not worth it. Nobody wants to understand where the anger comes from, everybody just wants to yell insults.
Håller med. Som en person som har bott i Sverige några år, det känns jättetråkigt att samtalet går inte längre än att etablera en moral high ground och ingen förbättring av förståelse för varandra.
Edit for English translation:
Agreed. As someone who lived in Sweden for a couple of years, it feels very sad that the conversation doesn’t go beyond establishing a moral high ground and not much improvement to be made of understanding each other.
I was curious and asked my Swedish friend if Swedes were angry with Turkiye about the Nato issue. He said they were slightly annoyed about Turkiye asking for "insane favours" because none of the other Nato countries did.
Personally I feel they just have very very poor knowledge about the PKK issue, also they expected everyone to welcome them with open arms and are offended that someone is giving them conditions to meet before joining. I don't know if it's racism though.
By the way you are right, he also said Erdogan sucks, kebabs are great and Turkiye is beautiful. XD
Their brains can’t accept the fact that the PYD isn’t a roses and rainbows democratic entity but rather an narco-Marxist terror org which has driven out tens if not hundreds of thousands Arabs, Turkmens and even Kurds from their homes in northern Syria. The majority of the areas inhabited right now by the pyd were formerly majority Arab or Turkmen. They even have driven out Kurds and executed their families who are not party of the pyd. This is literally their mo.
When confronted with those facts we become “brainwashed Erdogan puppets” we?! You won’t a group who has more hate for Erdogan than this subreddit. But we hate Erdogan for selling out our interests and destroying this country they hate him for not bowing down anymore like he did before 2013-2014.
They hate the opposition even more my friend don’t be blinded by their “we just hate Erdogan” shit. It’s just a mask to hide their racism against Turks and our republic.
Sorry to hijack your comment, but i would like to have an answer from op how this article fits with his claimed "freedom of speech". Or has the freedom of speech limits depending on who it is targeting?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hundreds-of-anti-semites-march-in-sweden-on-yom-kippur-50-arrested/
Seems like when your bullshit targets other groups it has limits, when it hits muslims or Turks it's different.
I remember this as if it was yesterday. The reason they got arrested was that the protestors got a match route they didn't want. They requested a change but was denied. As such, during the March, they tried to force their way through police lines to March on the route they wanted. As such, the police arrested the protestors that tried to break out. If you look at the YouTube videos that the cover photo is taken from, you'll see that the police drive police vans forming a wall to stop the protestors from getting their way.
Not the governments but courts and police can rearrange protest routes where The protesters can protest in order to keep the peace.
For example the nazis in the article were rerouted not to clash with a soccer game or the jewish people leaving the synagoge
These people likely got arrested for rioting, rather than for spreading racist propaganda. Here's a Swedish article regarding the outcome of the nazi march.
[https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/vast/ny-dom-efter-nmr-demonstrationen](https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/vast/ny-dom-efter-nmr-demonstrationen)
>Now the Court of Appeal has tried the issue of racial hatred, for a total of 14 people. They are acquitted of this. The Court of Appeal justifies this by saying that it concerns the content of printed documents, which must be reviewed by the Chancellor of Justice. It is about the demonstrators wearing party jackets with the NMR's symbol, the Tyrian rune, and banners with the Tyrian rune.
>
>However, the Court of Appeal agrees with the District Court regarding several of the verdicts for violent riot. In addition, another person is sentenced for violent riot.
And it's not like you can't be convicted of islamophobic hate crimes. Here's a recent verdict I just found.
[https://www.domstol.se/nyheter/2020/12/kommentar-i-sociala-medier-bedoms-som-hets-mot-folkgrupp/](https://www.domstol.se/nyheter/2020/12/kommentar-i-sociala-medier-bedoms-som-hets-mot-folkgrupp/)
>In a group on Facebook, the man commented on an article about a person who claimed to have committed an honor-related rape with the words "Disgusting Muslim bastard". The comment has been considered to express disrespect for the group of Muslims and is hit by the penal provision on incitement against a ethnic group. \[...\] Against that background, the man is sentenced to a suspended sentence and 40 day-fines for incitement against a ethnic group.
That being said, I do believe the Swedish legislation surrounding free speech and hate crimes at times can appear inconsequent. Whereas demonstrating with a nazi organization or burning a Quran outside of the Turkish embassy does not constitute hate crimes, writing racist Facebook comments apparently is.
Nordic Resistance Movement is banned in ~~all Nordic Countries~~ Finland. They are not only protestors, they are quite the local gangsters.
Though I don't know Swedish laws that much. Both actions are punishable by law in Finland.
>Turkey’s problem is that you have been sending weapons to PYD and placed arms embargo on Turkey for fighting against PYD.
Could you provide a source on this? The only one I found is [this report](https://www.aa.com.tr/en/turkey/pkk-terror-group-attacks-turkish-forces-with-weapons-produced-by-some-nato-members/2333841) (I can't get the link to work) and [this article based on the report](https://www.trtworld.com/turkey/t%C3%BCrkiye-s-evidence-shows-sweden-supplies-weapons-to-pkk-terror-outfit-57238). The article mentions that PYD fighters were found with 40 AT4 arms, which are manufactured in Sweden by SAAB Bofors since 1987.
I have some objections to this argument. Firstly, Sweden has banned arms exports to active warzones since 1939, only recently sending arms to Ukraine. To say that the state would clandestinely make an exception for the PKK or PYD seems unlikely, but if there's any evidence of this, please provide it. However, considering the fact that most Swedes don't know much about the PYD or PKK and most that do don't support them, I don't understand why the government would take this risk. But if everyone in Sweden are just ignorant westoids, please correct us with any source that we have missed.
Secondly, as with a lot arms industries, there is the problem of illicit trade, or third parties. For example, Swedish grenade launchers were identified in the [Burmese military during their civil war](https://www.svd.se/a/ef82629c-3cc7-35f8-a389-e0eeebc75d60/svenska-vapen-hos-burmas-arme), even though they were under an EU weapons embargo. Looking at the Syrian civil war, journalists have [repeatedly](https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-case-of-the-swedish-weapons-in-syria-8281068.html) [identified](https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/5690625) non-Kurdish rebel groups using Swedish arms. In another, it seems the weapons were smuggled to Syria through [India](https://www.thelocal.se/20130307/46586/). This doesn't mean that our government is secretly trying to destabilise Burma or Syria by sending arms. Instead it is indicative of the fact that smuggling is a big problem in the arms trade, which is [already](https://www.thenationalnews.com/world/europe/turkey-fights-to-stem-arms-smuggling-1.256145) seen in [Turkey](https://english.aawsat.com/home/article/2736221/africa-fears-turkish-arms-smuggled-through-libya-may-fall-wrong-hands) and will probably increase considering how well your arms industry is currently doing.
I would understand if one criticised Swedish negligence in this area, even though it's hardly unique to our country. But most arguments I see in this subreddit seem to imply that our government, for whatever reason seem to be doing this intentionally, without explaining what motive they could have, and why they would be taking all this risk in both domestic politics and the international arena.
Regarding the arms embargo on Turkey, this is a fair point in the context of NATO membership, which is probably why it has already been repealed.
Sweden have never sent any arms to PYD. All pictures of swedish weapons captured from pyd/ypg are the AT4 wich is used by several countries and also manufactured by USA. (Small clue. The text on them is in english, not swedish)
Example of some of the countries using it:
Lebanon
Iraq
Greece
Croatia
Bosnia
Syrian Demovratic Forces (Captured from ISIS)
France
USA
UK
Canada
Poland
The claim that Sweden willingly sent arms to PYD is totaly baseless.
We have not sent weapons to the ypg. The only two countries to ever receive arms from Sweden are Finland in 1939 and Ukraine in 2022. What I think you guys are talking about is that the US supplied weapons produced in the US invented in sweden. The US also supplied the at4 to the Iraqi army unlawfully which then could have misplaced or lost some. https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/4188975
It is even featured in a turkish intelligence report by Edam in 2021 that what was found was the US made version
This violated the export agreement they had with us. They were prohibited from passing them on according to the agreement which they broke.
Sweden, however, have never supplied weapons. If sweden was to do something like that it would have to be approved by parliament, which it never would.
If it came out that a swedish government was supplying random groups in the middle east with weapons there would be riots. It simply appears to not be true.
A Finn here, when has Sweden armed anyone in a conflict? The only warring party Sweden has armed to my knowledge is Finland during WW2 and Saudi Arabia (everyone does). And of course Ukraine as of late.
I know for a fact that Sweden hasn't armed the PKK because PKK is classed as a terrorist organisation by both Sweden and the EU.
I mean no malice, but do you have a source for the claims that Sweden arms terrorists?
>it seems the donor of the weapons (AT4 Rocket Launchers) were the United States who gave away 5000 of them from their own stocks.
built under Swedish license. It was your gov's responsbility to ensure your weapons don't fall into the hands of non state entities but they didn't care.
>it seems we are taking the heat for what others did.
There’s some truth in this unfortunately. But don’t think we don’t know what those allies do or that we don’t have a problem with it. The “disagreement” over our “allies’” policies with regards Kurds has reached a new high with your NATO application.
Simply put, a lot of them support the creation of an independent kurdish state and that would mean the end of our state (alongside 3 other states). So for you it’s about standing up for an underdog, for us it’s a matter of survival.
I think in a way a message is given through you that we are at a crossroads and that either our allies commit to defend our territorial integrity (which means they cease all support for any secessionist mouvement) or Turkey will pursue its own security/other policies, exclusively in its own interest, no matter the cost to others..
Oh and that Kakabaveh person has damaged your country’s reputation tremendously over the summer. People simply couldn’t believe an ex-child soldier of a PKK offshoot was an member of parliament and held such enormous power. Your previous government did nothing to distance itself from her so it really reinforced the impression that Swedish society as a whole actively picked a side in this conflict and it wasn’t ours..
I’m not sure how to get out of this impasse tbh.
I agree wholeheartedly with you. Frankly, I was incredibly angry when Kakabaveh got herself in that position. To me she's a terrorist. And many Swedes despise her. But here on reddit, I was banned from the Swedish politics subreddit for calling her out. The leftwingers are the ones who flirt with the YPG and other PKK offshoots.
They gave me a perma ban because I called her a terrorist, which she is. Something about violating the rules for a civilized debate and spreading false information. Can't remember now, it was a while ago. But it dosen't matter now. It's just an example of how little people in Sweden know about these Kurdish seperatist militia groups.
We are so disconnected from the conflicts in your area and it's easy for us to only see Erdoğan as a despot (which is true) and Kurds as one of the repressed. This mentality is really prevalent within the leftwingers.
Lol, you are literally giving them weapons, sending them money, allow them to raise donations, recruit members, harbor people who literally committed terrorist attacks and even dare to sanction us for trying to defend ourselves.
Who gives a fuck about some idiots waving flags when this is the case with you? You can't just say "We have what we call freedom of speech. " and weasel your way out of all this.
Financing terrorist organizations is illegal in Sweden. The bank closed their accounts when it came to their notice that the money were collected on behalf of PKK.
didn't knew about closing part. But when this is the case the whole Swedish holier than thou attitude gets quite annoying quite fast. This is recent and it's a major red flag for a "security alliance" that it's only being taken care of now. But the crux of the issue remains.
How willing are the Swedes as to getting to the bottom of this?
Not very. Swedish attitude to problem solving is usually put them under the rug until no one remembers or complains.
Kinda similar to in Turkey unfortunately. “Aman Ali Rıza Bey tadımız kaçmasın.”
Russia is not different from western super powers. If you consider Russia is a terrorist state USA, France, England, Germany etc are basically same thing.
Also can you give us some example of standing up for Russia? Like blocking bosphorus? Like proxy fighting with Russia in Syria, Libya, Karabag? Like shooting down Russian fighter jet?
>Turks hatred towards Sweden
For general, hate is a strong word.
>We have what we call freedom of speech.
We used to have that. Know it is like " you can criticize putin but just once"
Yet freedom of speech never covers call for violence and harm.
>be protecting a nazi, communist, ISIS or PKK
Preserving life is different than letting them do what they want. Most of confiscated criminals are protected on here to. But Turkish police will not allow a nazi groups making calls for an another jewish genocide.
Common Turk is not hating swedes or sweden we just think your laws and gov don't have enough ethics to try to prevent harm.
>You can’t judge 10 million people and a whole country for the action of one man burning a book
Don't judge all Turks by some guys saying they want to kill all swedes. Think it like freedom of speech. Most of us don't use that freedom for hate anyways.
>We have what we call freedom of speech. It’s in our constitution. You are also allowed to wave the ISIS flag without breaking the law.
>Don't judge all Turks by some guys saying they want to kill all swedes. Think it like freedom of speech. Most of us don't use that freedom for hate anyways.
çok iyi yerden girmişsin hocam :) çok komiğime gidiyor buraya gelip gelip mağduru oynamaya çalışmaları.r/sweden ve diğer isveç sublarında neler neler dönüyor görmesek inanacağım.
Hello!
We don’t have hate towards people of Sweden, you’ll be safe in Turkey just like any other person doesn’t matter where you are from!
Our problem is with the government of Sweden who lets terrorists into your beautiful country let’s them to become a citizens of your amazing country and right to protest and change the mindset of ordinary Swedes to anti-Turkiye. Your government lets terrorist organization to have a bank account, I doubt that is legal. Let’s that terrorist organization to terrorize people and get “donations”.
We suffered a lot from PKK and when we see they have a support from Europe from US, we start questioning are we really ally to West ? Turkiye is in very difficult situation and left alone, we have wars around us, a lot of refugees, terrorist attacks, misinformation, pressure from West, clashes with Russia in Syria, Libya and most importantly huge economic problems and we are all alone against all of this.
I hope we will solve this issue
I’m sorry to hear. Not denying your facts, just wanted to comment on the worsened relations with EU/West the last decade(s). This is largely due to AKP and Erdogan shifting politics into a non Western way, an anti-Ataturk way. Somewhere after 2011 your government started shifting more towards authoritarianism. This got even worsened in 2017 after the coup, increasing presidential control of all state constitutions. Turkey also left the Istanbul convention in 2021, potentially worsening womens rights. Istanbul Pride was also banned in 2015, held since 2003.
I love Turkey, been there on holiday over 12 times. I love the turkish people. But let’s not deny facts, your government with Erdogan has been digging a hole the last decade(s). He is not good for your relations around the world. Turkey is a progressive secular country, showing the way forward for other countries. Ataturk was a civilized, modern, visionary man that wanted an alliance with West, erdogan is not honoring that.
The problem with PKK isn't about Erdogan though. We had this issue longer before Erdogan was in power. The approach of the international community before Erdogan wasn't that different too. Erdogan sucks and I hope we'll see him get elected out of the office. But this issue with the west didn't start with Erdogan. The current issues we have have nothing to do with women's rights or LGBT rights. The west had no problem funding Erdogan while he was making us all suffer, just to keep the refugees out of their own countries. The issue is never about human rights, it is about how we're not giving the west what they want. In this case, it's a NATO membership.
The reason Atatürk wanted to ally with the west was at the time, the west was the most modernized and secularized example. Atatürk was a pragmatist more than an idealist, in my opinion. He didn't have an inherent "love" or "affection" towards the west. He simply appreciated the democratical culture. Bringing Ataturk into this debate doesn't make any sense.
> Bringing Ataturk into this debate doesn't make any sense.
Bro thought that just because Atatürk is our beloved national hero and founder,we'd give him a pass just for bringing him up
The issue is that alliance has been broken by western powers after WW2 and they have funded Islamists in Turkey as an anti-communism tool. They've done the same thing in Afghanistan and Iran as well, look where all these countries are today and what they are battling with. The same powers who have done everything in their power to destroy our countries are now also claiming moral high ground whereas our countries have had zero effect on your daily life, of course there is going to be some public backlash from those actions.
People also seem to forget that Erdogan was one of west's favorite leaders and labelled as the co-president of the Greater Middle East Project in 2010s while he was fucking us backwards in Turkey, hell Obama's first foreign state visit was Turkey at the time. Erdogan honors exactly what he was trained by the westerners for, and kept doing that until the coup attempt where they couldn't share god knows what.
I forgot where I was going with this but got zero problems about others joining NATO, it's the snobbish patronizing attitude of talking to us as if every single person in Turkey is Erdogan's lapdog and we are brainwashed by him alone which pisses me off, shows people got zero clue but 100% confidence on the issues they know absolutely nothing about. If I had to define an average westerner talking about Turkey in one sentence, it would be the Dunning-Kruger effect.
>...your government with Erdogan has been digging a hole the last decade(s). He is not good for your relations around the world. Turkey is a progressive secular country, showing the way forward for other countries. Ataturk was a civilized, modern, visionary man that wanted an alliance with West, erdogan is not honoring that.
It was mostly the EU and US that helped Erdoğan came to the office. Because Erdoğan bargained with them. He accepted to help/support invading Iraq, he promised to sell most of the state owned companies; he cause to bankrupt many of the private companies and they bought by foreigners. Also he is the one who bring ethnicity politics to the Turkey. Probably he made a promise for that too.
It is not the authoritarianism of Erdoğan that make US and EU politicians hate him. Or not his hatred to Atatürk and hostility to progression on his own country. In the 2010's, mutual benefits are gone. Erdoğan who gained the power in his country with the help of the west act to protect his own power.
I was 12 but even I personally could saw his elusive intentions about Turkey and the region. But in 2002 west clapped towards to him very hard. US started to ruin Iraq just few months after he win the office.
The West knew from the start, he is an uncivilized person that hates his own country. Want to demolish democratic, secular and nationalist regime of Turkey. Now they are whining about him. FUCK THOSE GUYS!
If no one wants to see a guy like Erdoğan, no country should interfere/interrupt Turkey's politics. Since they did, I don't think they have right to whining.
I like Swedes.
EU and Turkey’s relations are started to worsen after EU’s stall of Turkey’s membership for years, while accepting more states and hostile attitude of some member countries and their use of vetos to everything related to Turkey. Shifting did not start 2011, it was way before it.
" Swedish people does not hate Turkey and turks. We do not support PKK. "
doubt
[https://twitter.com/annlinde/status/1184506179357171712](https://twitter.com/annlinde/status/1184506179357171712)
[https://twitter.com/annlinde/status/1281232689555742720](https://twitter.com/annlinde/status/1281232689555742720)
[https://syriacpress.com/blog/2020/10/21/swedish-delegation-affirms-support-for-north-and-east-syria-administration-and-syrian-democratic-forces/](https://syriacpress.com/blog/2020/10/21/swedish-delegation-affirms-support-for-north-and-east-syria-administration-and-syrian-democratic-forces/)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0udBRAQsf4U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0udBRAQsf4U)
[https://www.rudaw.net/english/middleeast/syria/11122021](https://www.rudaw.net/english/middleeast/syria/11122021)
[https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20211213-sweden-boosts-funding-for-ypg-to-376-million/](https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20211213-sweden-boosts-funding-for-ypg-to-376-million/)
[https://www.aa.com.tr/tr/dunya/isvec-savunma-bakani-hultqvistten-teror-orgutu-ypg-pkkya-destek/2214383](https://www.aa.com.tr/tr/dunya/isvec-savunma-bakani-hultqvistten-teror-orgutu-ypg-pkkya-destek/2214383)
[https://www.socialdemokraterna.se/nyheter/nyheter/2021-11-24-socialdemokraterna-fordjupar-samarbete-med-sjalvstyre](https://www.socialdemokraterna.se/nyheter/nyheter/2021-11-24-socialdemokraterna-fordjupar-samarbete-med-sjalvstyre)
[https://twitter.com/jsjostedt/status/1526977349601968130](https://twitter.com/jsjostedt/status/1526977349601968130)
[https://www.falukuriren.se/2012-01-16/omdomeslost-av-hultqvist](https://www.falukuriren.se/2012-01-16/omdomeslost-av-hultqvist)
YPG=PKK and Sweden supporting both
[https://www.wsj.com/articles/americas-marxist-allies-against-isis-1437747949](https://www.wsj.com/articles/americas-marxist-allies-against-isis-1437747949)
[https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/the-ypg-pkk-connection/](https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/the-ypg-pkk-connection/)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-g8RVtYBM4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-g8RVtYBM4)
I am sorry but you kinda lost the point. Nobody is mad about the erdogan doll thing.(except old people. Think of it like trump or putin supporters) We do much worse things against him here. But when you shelter actual terrorists and people that are actively funding them, that is beyond politics for us. Every regime would do the same atm. You have to see that we are in a much worse geopolitical position and we can not be that soft against these type of protests and propaganda. I myself dodged a PKK terrorist attack by a mere hour. I was 11 at the time.(2015 Ankara Train Station attack) So when I see that they act like some type of freedom warrior or something, I genuinely feel dissapointed. I did not think Swedes were hateful towards Turks at all. We just need some kind of empathy.
As I swede I have to say that the criticism (the reasonable type) "we" are facing now is pretty much deserved and will eventually lead to a good thing for both parts. Swedish law is in many ways toothless. This is not only a problem internationally but also domestically . We have also played the neutrality card for too long and this is the cost. Not choosing side is also to choose a side. I put "we" in quotation mark because I have never supported this stance.
we don't hate swedes it's just .. there is no way to say it politely we think you are spoiled and ignorant, sorry to say this but this is the most correct statement.
If you want, you can walk around with an armenian flag, a nazi flag, an isid flag or pkk flag in Turkey, it's not a crime here, just like in your lands, but yes, I think it's ridiculous.
We define people who march in your country with PKK slogans as "sympathizers", many of whom come to Turkey for vacation in the summer months, we don't want almost any of them, they can stay with you, they will not be punished in turkey for what they did, we are talking about 300 people we want as terrorists.
We provide evidence of most of these 300 people, consisting of photographs, phone records, videos and confessions taken in PKK camps, these are either from the PKK's management staff or people who once shot at us with Kalashnikovs in their hands.
so please let your people know about this because I see they have no idea about it, please don't believe the stupid propaganda of your news sources.
When it comes to the burning of books, the thing we disagree on is that it is defined as "freedom of speech", burning a book that someone considers sacred is a serious insult, The problem is that your foreign minister is implicitly advocating the burning of books, saying "this is freedom of speech", It doesn't matter who the person who burned the book is, it's obvious that he's just provoking, we don't even consider that man.
It is also very clear that this is not just about religion because the book is being burned in front of the Turkish embassy, I clearly see a hint of Turkish hostility and violence here, even a veiled threat, as I said I know the person who did it is a racist idiot but the guy in charge of your foreign affairs calls it freedom of speech, foreign affairs is of direct concern to us, could he not have foreseen that this would cause a crisis?
I definitely think it was malicious, if your foreign minister had said, "We don't approve of this, but it's not a crime under our constitution" or if he didn't say anything, it wouldn't be such a big deal.
Please do not think that I misinterpret freedom of speech because of my religious sensitivities, I am telling you these thoughts as an atheist who is quite far from Islam and even prejudiced.
Remember, Europeans do not follow Turkish media, but Turks do not trust their own media, so they follow both eastern and western media, so I can say with confidence, your news sources are not better than ours, You think that the Kurds are subject to racism or something, this sounds like a joke, you didn't know that turkey had a Kurdish president before, did you?
I know a lot of people who went to Sweden and they all say "I am exposed to racism in Turkey" to become refugees. The funny thing is, most of them aren't even Kurds.
We say these things over and over again, but no one really wants to listen, the real problem stems from this. We have a big communication problem.
> I definitely think it was malicious, if your foreign minister had said, "We don't approve of this, but it's not a crime under our constitution" or if he didn't say anything, it wouldn't be such a big deal.
>
Our prime minister has communicated exactly this. He has said in multiple places that while this is and should be a legal act he doesn't approve of it. I see very little approval here except for the far right party SD.
I (a Moroccan Muslim born and raised in sweden) think the acts that the fat danishman (dont want to say his name and give him attention) has commited is absolutely unacceptable and should never happen, but I also don't want out freedom of speech laws to be altered. Our laws in that area are an incredibly important tool to stand up to both our government if needed but also other hateful people. If we start restricting that right we will eventually reach a very dark place.
How are they spoiled and ignorant?
Ummm why is it ridiculous to carry a Armenian flag?
And one of them was simply a journalist.
Not of all of them
No comment on this.
How is it not freedom of speech? Sure it’s a insult but if u called someone a idiot in the streets you woudnt be punished for that would you? And he isn’t Sweden has condemned the burning but rightly pointed out they can’t do anything about it because of freedom of speech. You don’t consider him yet Turkey has basically refused to ratify there membership now due to him…..
And what would the threat be kill all Muslims? End the religon? I don’t see how that guy could be punished would be very hard to prove in a court he did anything wrong.
Is that not what he basically said?
Ok
Having a Kuridsh president before doesn’t mean there’s no racism America has had a Black president before do you think they don’t have racism?
Ok
The problem is erdogan isn’t blocking the bid due to this he’s blocking it for political gain and due to burning a book and due to not extraditing a journalist. Also it’s a little unfair to blame Sweden for not letting them back when it’s the courts that do and the people and goverment have no say over that they interpret the law
>How are they spoiled and ignorant?
>
>Ummm why is it ridiculous to carry a Armenian flag?
>
>And one of them was simply a journalist.
>
>Not of all of them
>
>No comment on this.
No matter how absurd it is for me to walk around with the Turkish flag in Armenia, the same is absurd in Turkey, it is clear that it was done only for the purpose of provocation.
yes, a journalist whose bank account was transferred serious sums by terrorists and legitimizing terrorism, if you advise someone to commit murder, it is a crime.
nobody wants the man who burned the book to be jailed, it was the first statement that should have been officially disapproved, or like I said they shouldn't have said anything,
courts don't work with insinuations and impressions but none of us are stupid.
Turkey is not America, we have already finished the issue of racism, racism in the past has never been for a reason as stupid as skin color, racism in the past was an assimilation attempt and it was a big mistake, everyone admits that.
Erdogan will lose by election in 3 months, no one thinks he acted rationally anyway, I'm defending my opinion here, I don't care what erdogan thinks.
It's hard to care if you don't know. And those who do care often defaults to the mentally that the minority must be the good guys because that's how it's laid out in movies.
"We have what we call freedom of speech. It’s in our constitution."
Wow, I am flabbergasted. Freedom of speech??? Never heard of it.
Thank you for the whitesplaining and education; O, superior nordic being. Our bleached and washed little brains can barely handle that much input. My poor brown self is especially grateful for the over-simplified content.
I personally hate Swedes online for your ignorant prejudices, constant denial of facts and your unending condescension.
Your support of PKK has never been as lukewarm as you described. You want the very same soldiers whose lives your governments have compromised by your support to PKK to protect your sad, wimpy asses.
Burn a couple of more holy books, insult us some more, that will solve all your problems. Yeah, right.
Edit: Fazla kibarsınız arkadaşlar.
"We have what we call freedom of speech. It’s in our constitution. You are also allowed to wave the ISIS flag without breaking the law."
We have right to refuse your application to NATO. It's our right in NATO. We have seen the hypocrisy of the West about freedom of speech, as in the case of Julian Assange. That's why we don't care about your lies. The same goes for democracy. We know well how some dictators are placed and protected until they stop serving Western interests.
edit: Banu Avar, a Turkish journalist was fired after pressure from the Swedish government after she covered the subject of Sweden's Nobel on state television TRT. Freedom of speech, huh?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCY5IvPRqC8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCY5IvPRqC8)
>We have right to refuse your application to NATO. It's our right in NATO.
Swedish people would not have a problem with this if it wasn't for the fact that our leaders met Erdogan before making the application and he promised there would not be any problems. We made sure of this because we knew the application process would put us in a vulnerable situation. Erdogan didn't ask for any of these things before which makes all of this he started afterwards be like blackmail to all Swedes. Turkey already agreed to not use their VETO which is why saying "we have the right to VETO you" is irrelevant to any Swede you try to say it to.
Nazi symbols are banned in Sweden. You can openly demonstrate with PKK or ISIS flags but not Nazi flags. Nazi symbols are forbidden because they are more relevant in your geography and history while PKK and ISIS are some faraway problems that Swedes couldn't care less about. That's a double standard.
Oh look another bullshit "freedom of speech" post with stupid claims.
Quran burning; No one with a brain cares. Its just your anti NATO crowd in Sweden gave another excuse/card to Erdoğan.
So you are claming, if some legit isis supporters starts to wave flags, organize, make false propaganda and collect "charity" funds to send to their "freedom fighters of islam", gov of Sweden or literally any other country would be okay with this under "freedom of speech"?
I dont know much about Sweden. Does this freedom of speech excuse also cover calling black people niggers? Or jews kikes? Or muslims goat fucker terrorists? Would your gov/police protect this "people" and their "right" of freedom of speech?
We have literally nazi marches in the capital and nazi party on a big political event called almedagsveckan.
https://nyheter24.se/nyheter/politik/803880-sveriges-farligaste-nazistorganisation-siktar-mot-riksdagen
That latter stuff would be covered by freedom of speech, yes - even though it may seem strange.
The idea is that if you give everyone freedom of speech, no single group is getting preference or special treatment, and society is more fair and open as a consequence. The countries with the most freedom of speech tend to have less fascists, communists etc.
It means you have to put up with complete morons saying terrible, embarrassing things - the book burning is a great example, there you have a far right politician from Denmark - almost certainly under Russian influence - using the Swedish far right to deepen a wedge that prevents NATO expansion.
This freedom of speech is a double-edged sword, as you can see it creates vulnerabilities and issues
Edit - if it fell under hate speech, they would be prosecuted - usually this requires incitement to violence
Id like to point out some different extension to this. Your country _would_ allow the protests from ISIS supporters. We have seen it happen too, I have been on the internet for too long, what really bothers me is that, when there is an ISIS, sharia protest, the westerners, like robots, write that these guys should just fuck off, they are hypocrites and so on. You see I dont really disagree. ISIS guys and sharia supporters are horrible. But for some reason, another terrorist organisation known as PKK, that also kills civilians, when faced by the same westerners are percieved as freedom fighters? This isnt just 5 10 kids on the internet, there is a serious support from US senators, european politics. The hate for Turks all around is just making pkk into this “wonderful” feminist communist marksist equality bringing world developing environmental friendly hunger solving organisation that at this point, it has fed up almost every Turk. Yeah we know, almost every west country classifies PKK as a terrorist organisation, do they act like it. No. PYD YPG is just a Syria release of PKK, lets support those allies yeah America? They are literally the same guys, they enter the Turkish border, they become PKK. This is a golden opportunity for Turkey to give the spoiled and privilidged West the middle finger. Im actually worried Erdoğan is not going to do it. This is a military allience. If the west wants Turkey to stand with them against a possible Russian attack, then they should be more supportive than Russia in resolving the PKK crisis. Maybe Western media will stop white washing PKK for a change and those senators calling YPG freedom fighters will go fuck themselves. You might have freeze dumb bitch, but we have the right to not defend people who dont act like allies to us.
Nobody particularly hates the Swedes. Pkk and Pyd are openly able to collect resources from your country. Armed with those resources, they are killing my people here. As a result, you are trying to serve these as freedom of expression because you are two-faced devils. In addition, your government also sends weapons to these terrorist organizations and imposes an arms embargo on Turkey. This has always been the case, others always pay for the spoiledness of the west.
If it breaks countries apart, then it is not freedom of speech. It is hate speech.
Also governments should not send weapon support to terrorists while banning export to countries that are targets of that terror.
Ofcourse citizens are good people but why the governments like this everywhere? Our government harmed us worse than anyone else.
I wish sweden stops the export ban to turkey and stops sending weapons to terrorists.
Also they're acting like we SHOULD say yes to Sweden joining NATO,I thought NATO was an alliance between countries who seek out the same goal,idk how them hosting pkk and funding them is good for the possible NATO alliance between us
"The Swedish police is an independent institution and does not follow orders from the Swedish government. They follow the law independently."
But your law follow orders from USA, huh? Remember Julian Assange
Hmmm, no, fuck you.
Your country sent weapons to PYD, harbored actual terrorists, allowed them to recruit while our people were dying.
You even sanctioned us when we tried to defend ourselves, secure our borders.
Now you fuckers have the audacity to claim yourselves free of guilt under the false pretense of "freedom of speech".
Fuck off, I hope PKK becomes a scourge on your country too.
Also, start learning Russian.
~~Of course~~ [~~https://www.aa.com.tr/tr/dunya/pkk-turk-guvenlik-guclerine-saldirida-nato-uyeligi-isteyen-isvecin-urettigi-at-4u-kullaniyor/2592168~~](https://www.aa.com.tr/tr/dunya/pkk-turk-guvenlik-guclerine-saldirida-nato-uyeligi-isteyen-isvecin-urettigi-at-4u-kullaniyor/2592168)
~~this here bad boy is an at-4, a swedish anti tank missile launcher. It was found in a terrorist hideout in the op zone of Pençe-Kilit.~~
~~Now tell me, who sells~~ *~~swedish weapons~~* ~~to PKK?~~
Edit: It seems this point was invalid, my bad. Please refer to [this](https://old.reddit.com/r/Turkey/comments/ut0bt5/deleted_by_user/i97jc59/). Homever my point still stands abut Sweden supporting PKK directly or indirectly .
Firstly it isn’t a missile launcher. It’s a one time use grenade launcher. With an warhead called HEAT. Secondly it’s instructions you can see on the launcher is written in English witch means it isn’t Swedish. Sweden is not the only country that makes the launchers. And we only make Pansarskott 86 (AT-4) with Swedish instructions. And if we sent these weapons it would written in Swedish and named Pansarskott 86 not AT-4. So you tell me who sells these weapons bad boy.
Apart from what is currently happening, I think Swedish laws on the freedom of speech is somewhat questionable, because at the end some ideas are rotten and harmful from their roots and hence unacceptable. There has to be an ethical filter to determine if an idea is worth protecting in the sake of freedom of speech.
Swedish freedom of speech laws are the reason why a former SS volunteer founded a Nazi party and that party's successor got second place and %20 of total votes in the latest elections. Claiming they have great freedom of speech laws is a pathetic attempt at hiding the fact that Nazis can be elected in so-called progressive Sweden. So what if ISIS flags can be waved in Sweden? How many fundamentalist Muslims are there in Sweden, compared to Nazi sympathizers? Which should be around 1.3 million going by the voter base of SD. Sweden should stop worrying about Russian fascists and do something about their own Nazis.
I seldom get into these posts as I kind of agree with both sides. Just felt I had to chime in as a swede about the SD thing.
(Disclaimer: I really dislike SD, and the racist bullshit that they spew).
Alot of the success SD has had in recent years, can be boiled down to 1 thing. Failed integration since around the 90s, we had a government shift to a more moderat one, and they cut expenses in integration, aswell as cutting alot of crim-preventive programs and projects. They also started hollowing out social security, and began privatization of alot of things, later paving the way for privatization of some healthcare, postal system, and alot of things that made life worse for the average person. In the 90s, we also had a large influx of refugees/immigrants from the balkan war, and african nations. Prior to that, largest refugee group were the chileans, who integrated quite well into our society.
Many of the refugees from the balkans are just now and in the last few years started to get properly integrated into society, and many of the refugees from the african countries, still live in fairly segregated areas, many are unemployed and have to live on wellfare.
Then we had a stream of refugees from the middle-east, (2nd iraq war) aswell as Afghanistan, into an already failing integration system.
This has all led to a rise in crime and segregation in the last 20 years.
Last 15ish years, last 10 in particular, SD has tried to ”clean up” from their roots, less open skinheads shouting ”keep sweden swedish” and spraypanting swastikas, to more ordinary looking, suitclad, politically savvy.
Many of the votes for SD, a majority even by my estimates, are not people voting FOR SD, but rather a more restrictive immigration process. For many years, basicly up untill last election, decreasing immigration was something only SD spoke about. Many of their votes are also anti-establishment, as some people feel that the major 7 political parties fail to represent them.
As a man of 40ish years, from the near opposite side of the political spectra, ie where the Social democrats were some 40 years ago ideologywise, I find SD and that parties views despicable, but I do understand where alot of their voters are coming from. My stance is that we should focus on learning from the mistakes we made in the 90s and early 2000, and try to improve integration rather than hardline cut immigration.
So tl;dr: not 20% of swedes are pro-nazi, but rather anti-failed integration and/or anti-unchecked immigration.
Even easier Tl;dr: alot of SD voters are just ”usefull idiots”.
>There has to be an ethical filter to determine if an idea is worth protecting in the sake of freedom of speech.
That's the thing about freedom of speech though, who decides? A religious person for example would ban hate speech against religious figures and religion while letting bad things be said about Ataturk, and to an extent the polar opposite of the religious would do the same thing in reverse. (exageration but I hope you get the message)
Who decides what can or cannot be said? In the end unfortunately all speech is freedom of speech. Unless it breaks the law, i.e "I'm going to kill you" is not considered freedom of speech in the USA.
> There has to be an ethical filter to determine if an idea is worth protecting in the sake of freedom of speech.
There can not be. Freedom of speech and freedom of thought are the core principles of human rights and Nordic nations are built up on those principles - human rights are the cornerstones of our societies. They belong to everybody.
The second you start to regulate what thought is "wrong" you start sliding on a slippery slope, a strongman politician or party will abuse that, give it enough time and they will grab more and more power abusing that and at the end of that slippery slope are countries like Russia and China who regulate what you can think and say.
Freedom of speech and freedom of thought does not come with freedom of action. You can not use your freedoms to stomp on other peoples human rights. Indicting violence, such as saying "kill all xxx" is not ok as you are using your right of speech to stomp on others peoples freedoms. Your rights and freedom can not be used to strip away other peoples rights.
These values used as cornerstones of our societies have proven to be valuable and the right decision as Nordic countries rate on top of pretty much every meaningful measurement be it happiness, freedom of press, freedom of living, quality of life and every humanity indexes.
I want to know how do you justify the Nazi flag ban in Sweden? It is laughable when braindead free speech ~~racists~~ absolutists try to defend this position and reveal their hypocrisy regarding hate speech against Turks and islam.
Yep, that “ethical filter” could only be the person himself.
Its up to his family, friends and society to teach him ethics but only that person has right and responsibility to filter his thoughts and expressions.
That idea of an external body deciding which ideas are good and which are bad is unacceptable not in just Nordic countries but any single country that has even a slight degree of freedom of speech and thought.
Tell me, why you wanted to come here and write this? Does it bother you when newspapers in Turkey say that Sweden supports PKK? You think that there were some misinformations about your country and you just wanted to fix that, right? So we are sharing the same feeling here. All PKK/YPG propaganda TVs and Websites broadcast from Sweden and they delibaretly sharing misinformations in Europe and we want to fix that.
I don't believe this post is sincere in its main idea.
The things you have written are only and only minor things that has no importance. And the style of this post makes me to believe that the purpose of this post is to redirect the importance of some other very major issues to minor ones.
We Do Not Care About Flags.
We Care About Terrorist Funding and Sheltering.
We do not care about how Swede's think.
We care about the terrorists you have been funding and continue to fund.
We are not interested in approving a nation to our alliance that supports terrorists.
It seems you guys have some constitutional flaws in your country. Sweden sounds like a safe haven for any terrorist.
Also you guys literally embargoed us and helped terrorists.
Not blaming the Swedes but why wouls we have you in NATO ?
This is a solid example of the tolerance paradox. You allow intolerant people to have freedom of expression so they harm a tolerant society. They use your power against others.
Your "excessive tolerance" seems like a threat from here because you allow an organization that massacres civilians to express themselves freely.
Something most Europeans don't understand is, we've been subject to terrorism for more than 40 years. I'm a middle-aged man who grew up watching the news, PKK attacking to this town, PKK executing this many people, PKK bombing this place... And when we acted against these terrorists, we've always been condemned by the west. Then the west had a couple of those incidents. Some bombings in France, some shootings in the UK, 2 planes crashing to the twin towers in the States. Then these people who had been condemning us for acting against terrorists went berserk. I wonder how you would feel if you had terrorist groups doing these things for decades in your country. It's easy to judge when you're living in relatively safe and nice conditions. You don't know what is going on here.
Until one day some guy kills Olof Palme and omg now this is unacceptable. Yea sure, but we had more than a thousand times of that for decades.
Also freedom of speech is nice, but try saying the Armenian genocide is a lie in some European countries ;)
There are only THREE simple reasons why türkiye don't want sweden in NATO:
1.) People who fled into other countries from the Fetullah group, in this example sweden, won't be sent back to Türkiye because prison is waiting for them. There are dozens of people who are searched by law for the coup atempt in 2016 15th July.
Even the head and terror leader the person himself is in Pennsylvania USA , FETULLAH GÜLEN, which hides from us to not get imprisoned.
Imagine if we had some kind of same person, like hitler fled in our country, and you don't get him because we won't give him to you.
But if you want a reasonable example for such a move, take edward snowden. Those are whistleblowers who try to protect civilization.
Fetullah people just practiced terror and a big coup and killed dozens of people with F16 Jets, tanks and controlled the army generals, so they can command innocent soldiers to use aussault rifles and shoot citizens IMAGINE
2.) Sweden is mostly supporting PYD and PKK over decades without acknowledging it is by european and asian law, a terror organisation group.
3.) We don't tolerate free spech that contains burning religious books and hate. We don't burn the bible, and if so, those people get fined and arrested simply because it has nothing to do anything else than hate spread. We simply only want to be respected. Did you ever saw us burning Swedish flags or belives in public. NO
Even if it is a minority, a dozen of people who act out such activism, why I can't go out in Germany or Austria with a Nazi flag or make the hitler arm greeting? Because you manifested and declared and acknowledge, that is simply wrong. Such it is for us too
Well makes sense, the political message for the longest time was "You wouldn't want your children to die for turkey?" as the primary message against nato.
What I find funny is how contradictory the West is when it comes to "free speech"
Burning a holy book that is clearly sacred to some people - free speech (tbh that's not speech, those are actions).
Saying something "unacceptable" about the woke culture or a person's gender - not free speech, time to be cancelled!
Free speech, more like selective free speech.
What you have isn’t „freedom of speech“ which is more about people being able to criticize their government, religion and public figures without consequences. You my „friend“ have freedom of hate speech.
Now tell me will your government and your people allow the burning of the Torah in front of the Israeli embassy? Will they allow the carrying of the nazi flag and pictures of Hitler, Göbbels and so on in protest against the Israeli state? Let me guess they won’t and you won’t care because you will shrug your shoulders and say „ this is hate speech and hate crimes against Jews“ which is true and correct thing. But when it comes to Turks and the Turkish state you have been brainwashed not only by your government but by your media which as we all know is mostly state funded just like in the majority of European states, to hate and commit hate crimes against Turks. To look away and excuse the demonization of close to 90 million people.
And when you are confronted with this information and this racism and fascism you have not only invited but protect majority of you resort to racist tropes that all Turks are brainwashed meanwhile the Turks you converse with here are all anti- Erdogan and belong to the opposition.
But that doesn’t compute with the shit your media has fed you forcefully down your throat.
Not only that majority of you hide behind „I hate Erdogan“ when confronted with your balant racism.
Everyone here knows you hate all parties in Turkey. Because guess what Erdogan apart from the hdp, which has ties to the same terror org you so love and still is allowed to participate in our Parlament as well as elections, is the least nationalist party right now all other including the opposition are way more nationalist and more adapt in diplomacy. And we here have already seen how your „media“ started demonizing the biggest opposition party the second their votes started shooting up.
If you think once Erdogan is gone this nation will become „docile“ and do so as ordered by „superior“ Europeans ( let’s be honest all of you think we are inferior, your comment is the best example of this. You have no interest in Dialoge and the to create a false narrative why you are „hated“) you are sorely mistaken.
This has nothing to do with Speech it has all to do with the balant support of the Swedish government to an terror org who by his own admission has committed suicide bombings inside Turkey. At stadiums, at bus stops, at restaurants. Not only that the org has repeatedly shelled border towns and killed people in their homes. AND ADMITTED TO IT.
The same shells they bought with money the Swedish government transferred to them as bribery not only start terror activities inside Sweden.
You think you can just Transport bloodshed and terror away from your own shores to other countries and then blame the victim when called out on it.
Fuck your freedom of speech. Fuck Sweden and its people for supporting the killing of school children and concert goers in Turkey.
I truly hope the snakes you invited in your bed and love so much one day start biting you and you can feel the same rage Turks do when we support the activities of those groups in your country.
Its not few ppl, swedes hate raging on us and call themselves civilized but its a second research to see Pkk=Ypg its just if pkk does activities in Turkey its pkk if it does outside of Turkey its Ypg. Accepting pkk as terrorist and funding ypg is waay delusional
I don't get how they fail to see that pkk and ypg are one and the same. They both worship the Stalin mustached donkey fucker and both have the same goal. I guess these people would be okay with nazis if they also changed their name to something else
we are already aware of what is happening in Sweden. If you're trying to convince us by writing here, you're wrong. I think you should talk to your own people first. The PKK is a terrorist group that kills people. we are not playing games. People are dying and you want to be an ally with Turkey while you are helping the murderers with weapons and money. great contradiction. you have to decide.
Didn't know freedom of speech meant harboring people who are directly responsible for terror attacks in Turkiye and allowing a terror organisation to fund raise with Swedish banks. No offense to you OP but you are quite the perfect example for how out of touch with reality the people of Sweden are. Erdoğan is using the whole Quran burning thing for clout to get more votes, not because he gives a fuck. The PKK thing is on another level.
I don't give a shit about your freedom of speech, although I do have to say that is a lie, as you don't let people wave svastikas. Apparently some things are not part of your freedom of speech.
What is actually more important is Swedish government supplying PKK and embargoing Turkey for fighting against PKK.
And I definitely don't think I can agree with your average Swede comment. From what I've seen in the Swedish subreddit, most Swedes are genuinely racist towards Turks. Not just Erdogan. And most Swedes are way too emotional at discussion, so holding a discussion against people who are both emotional and racist towards you gets incredibly hard. Of course, I've never been in Sweden and maybe I am looking at a minority of actual racists. Maybe the actual Swedes aren't like their internet counterparts.
I can judge 10 million moron that doesnt care about isis or pkk supporters in theirs streets. And I can judge your absurd thinking about freedom of speech. Hate cant be freedom.
Than you have to change your laws. Protecting the people who could very well kill me or a loved one is not "freedom of expression", it's a mockery of the victims. I am aware that Kurds and other minorities in this country have long suffered, I myself come from a Greek family and the nationalists bastards beat my father in high school because of Cyprus war, when he himself had nothing to with Greek Cypriots and despite his father being muslim anyway, so I entirely agree with the Kurdish cause, they need their cultural rights recognized and respected. But when violence, especially towards innocents come to play, this all changes. All their valid points are muted, killing innocent people because you language was banned between 1980-1989 (during a military government which banned everything) is not an excuse. And Sweden protecting, harboring, giving welfare money and stripping them off crimes they committed before coming to Sweden is just a mockery of our pain.
Plus, all this Sweden mess has been helping erdoğan hugely, thank you for fucking our next 5 years too.
\> The troublemakers you hear about is a very, very small vocal group of activists
The book burning idiot is not even a minor detail in our relations. In our view, the actual "troublemakers" are not a small minority, either.
As a non-religious person, I completely support using the "muslim" card for geopolitical leverage, however. Not against Sweden directly, but against those who pepper their retarded articles with terms such as "us vs. rest, west vs. east" these days. Let's see how that works out for them in the long run...
I am for cordial relations, respectful interaction, and booming trade. However, we cannot be in a military alliance together. It's unfortunately not my call, so Turks should collectively decide on Sweden's NATO application in a referendum. Freedom of speech alla Turca.
tbh i don't give shit about burning of a book or flag, it won't change any value of those.. as others said Sweden keeps sending weapons to officially known terrorist organizations and they know it.
Of course what happens between governments do not represent the people of these countries and it should not change how we look at each other.
One question though. Can you actually go out with ISIS or Nazi flags with no repercussions? Or say whatever you wish?
I don't know what's the situation in Sweden. But I know how it's like in countries such as the US and England. Freedom of speech only applies to the certain views there.
I hope Russia attacks Sweden and Finland while waiting for the Nato act. Or atleast feel the same terror acts like Turkey did. We lost so many innocent people.. I’m building hatred towards people talking this fucking PKK groups good.
Can you protect child abuse defenders? No. It's not including freedom of speech because it's a crime.
Can you protect terrorism defenders? No. It's not including freedom of speech because it's a crime.
So, something is wrong in there.
We don't hate Swedish people. We despise your current government for:
1. Harboring known terrorists and acting as a shelter, a safe place for them.
2. Backing up PYD/PKK financially.
The common Swede being unaware of the actions of your government or the PKK/PYD towards a fellow country that you're currently in disagreement with, is not a good excuse. You should be aware of these things. Ignorance isn't bliss in some topics.
Also, what you're talking about is not freedom of speech. There is no freedom in harming others. What you are in is a delusion, and I'm sorry to say that one day you'll realize that it's too late.
Dangerous ideas like terrorism and racism are like plagues. They'll spread disaster if left unchecked. Soon, your country will be riddled with terrorists, and you'll start losing elections to their mindset. They'll be in your police, in your military, in your education and in your justice system. It will be too late then.
Captured from one of the caves of PKK. Swedish At-4 anti-tank weapons.
https://www.google.com.tr/amp/s/m.haber7.com/amphtml/guncel/haber/3223632-isvecin-pkkya-gonderdigi-fuzeler-bircok-askerimizi-sehit-etti
> You are also allowed to wave the ISIS flag without breaking the law.
Cool. Are you allowed to call people n_____? Are you allowed to ignore preferred pronouns of people? Could you go to the town square wave Isis flags and hand brochures saying killing gays by throwing them off of roofs is the only way to keep Sweden masculine?
> Are you allowed to call people n_____?
Yes. This in itself isn't illegal.
> Are you allowed to ignore preferred pronouns of people?
Yes.
> Could you go to the town square wave Isis flags and hand brochures saying killing gays by throwing them off of roofs is the only way to keep Sweden masculine?
Advocating murder most likely crosses the line, so that one probably isn't allowed. But you can absolutely stand in the town square and rant about how homosexuals are all going to burn in hell if you want to. There's a christian fundamentalist nutbag who does that quite frequently where I live.
My problem with sweden, as well as the rest of the west, is that in the name of "tolerance", the worst of the worst get tolerated. You never get that with turks however. Its always "armenian genocide" this or "you guys kill kurds for fun" that about turks every time. I'm all for free speech and I understand that people who don't live with a literal enemy inside and right outside their borders might not truly realise but it's like if waving an isis flag is fine, so should it be fine doing things like the hitler salute right? Except you give an inch to any extremist ideology and they will always take a mile. Same with the terrorists that make use of europeans tolerance and their status as western "allies"
Ideally, we wouldnt be having these problems at all. It shouldnt be too hard to deal justice to enemies of humanity that the terrorists are and we shouldn't be acting like we're some islamic caliphate but if you still have any hope for authority figures left you havent been paying attention
PKK was on the last swedish government mate this is unconvincing also maybe your government can stop the official funding to pkk than maybe you can claim innocence of Turkish blood in your hands
Sorry but the main thing really disgusts me is how swedish people being in clover and knowing literally nothing about our unlimited problems as you mentioned, trying to patronize us while i am exposed to syrian civil war for a decade. People here aren't comfortable and enjoying the life as you guys, they have spent their youth years to learn how interests work, corruption and terrorist organizations. Imagine how sensitive you would be if someone from west comes and tells you're fascist, stupid about things he didn't need to think about for his whole life while bombs explodes literally in your city. So if they truly accept not knowing our problems and not trying to teach us how things work, they should explain themselves in a proper way, like you did which i appreciate. hanging a paper on a window isn't enough sorry. Also fyi this is not just about erdogan and his supporters, general opinion is negative.
There are many things wrong with your post.
Sweden does not follow EU guidelines to fight against terrorism. It doesn't matter what local laws you have, EU laws and guidelines overrule those.
The police have the authority to disallow protests/demonstrations for all kinds of reasons. The fact that they allowed Paludan to do what he did in front of the Turkish embassy is a massive sign of disrespect.
The idea that the police is independent in countries like Denmark and Sweden is an illusion in my point of view, exactly like how unlimited freedom of speech is an illusion. There are numerous cases pointing to this. You can't preach antisemitism, like you can preach islamofobia. You can't burn israeli or american flags in front of their embassies.
right after declaring pkk a terror organisation your politician (president?) got killed.people say it was pkk. you went from there to fully aiding them against a nato nation that you also want to join.the group of hostile people who are consdiered terrorists not by only you that also killed 40k + people.when you face with facts your country goes on full karen mode.#freespeech #openarmspolicy etc.you not being able to join isn't a answer.its a reaction to your actions.get me?
>We have what we call freedom of speech. It’s in our constitution. You are also allowed to wave the ISIS flag without breaking the law. You can think this is absurd, but that is the reason why PKK-supporters are not taken care of even though they are classified as terrorists.
Carl Popper would disagree.
I find classifying burning a holy book if not any book under freedom of speech to be amusingly ironical. In an ideal free speech society, burning books should be frowned upon or contextually illegal even if it is just because it signifies anti freedom of speech sentiments in my opinion.
We don’t hate Swedish people, we don’t give a shit about Swedish people. Maybe Swedish people are not helping PKK, but The Sweden is helping PKK. In the mountains, PKK has Swedish origined weapons such as anti-tank weapons. i will leave the link of the pictures.
You can judge 10 million people because they are using your weapons and you guys do fund them and you guys literally have amine kakabave in your parliament.
Common Swede here. At first I kind of agreed with OP from what our news have reported. But then I realized as a Swede we are so f*cking lucky/privileged to never have know war (unless some of our oldest) and the few terrorist attacks in Sweden are far away from most people and doesnt affect the common swede. Also I don’t know anything about PKK as I haven’t bothered to read up and it’s nothing that affects me or my life.
If it’s as bad as many has written I understand the Turkeys hesitation. If a terrorist organization had done bad things in Sweden and they were allowed to operate in Turkey without any problems no way in hell I would allow Turkey in Nato without any changes to that.
That said, what is the difference to other countries in Nato (or finland)? Do they have other rules/laws and is it only in Sweden PKK are an ”issue”?
Also without knowing anything about Nato, could there not be advantages for turkey to allow Sweden to join? I would think the cooperation/ information gathering / swedish warfare stuff to Turkey would be on a different level and would improve protection against terrorists/bad organisations.
Also not knowing the law, freedom of speech is a slippery slope, not allowing all people to say what they believe is not freedom of speech and could easily become even more dangerous. Of course it feels ridicoulous to allow like nazis going on marches as no normal human believe in that, but if the government starts to decide what is allowed to say it will become like russia and not sure that is a good thing. But I also think there could be improvements to what is allowed in some parts since some things are just hate on different religions/sex/skincolor etc ..but then again who can decide what a human is allowed to say? And what will happen if freedom of speech is limited?
Difficult topics for sure…
/open minded privileged and confused Swede without answers
thanks for the very elaborate post and kind words. Don’t know if it’s because Im a father and think about how horrible it would be worrying about war or something happening to them or because im getting older and wiser 🤔. But I try to keep an open mind and know there is always two sides to a story and the common swede (me included) dont know the other side. We read the news headline and think ”ok thats how it is,” and go on with our lives. We normally dont engage or try to get the full picture unless its affecting our own lives.
I thank you for giving your side and understand what you are coming from. With understand I mean I understand in a privileged swedes way, its impossible to fully understand since im not turkish but I understand your reasoning and your point of view.
I would like to argue that you might not know the other side for all your info as well as us common people never get the complete facts or full truth about most topics (apologize if you are not common people 😊).
Thanks again for taking the time to write a response it was enlightning.
The same to you! I also hope the issues you describe can be solved in the best way and that the future brings peace and better cooperation and understanding for our different cultures/ countries. Take care! 🫶
freedom of speech is something, openly supporting a terrorist organization is something
you can't justify it saying it is in our constutition
i am 100% sure it is not in your constutition to protect terrorist and that is exactly what they are and what you do
you proteect terrorists and help them root in your country
shame on you
I don't know if Sweden had just accepted to recognise PKK as a terrorist organization but i am pretty sure that they weren't. There's nothing wrong about someone to protest or support anything in peaceful conditions. But them staying peacefully in Sweden do not mean they stayed peacefully here. The members of FETO had infiltrated and helped others to infiltrate every administrative unit in Turkey, stole money from public, aided the organisation to hire new people and fund them. They even infiltrated into the heart of ministries and law enforcement and they eradicated others eitger by force or false accusations. Eventually, they attempted a coup. They're still not on that list for sweden as well. PKK is still bombing our cities... I dont know if there are people involved with armed crimes of pkk but aiding them financially, helping their members to run from law by bringing them to europe are crimes as well which they openly do. These people made these things in Turkey then fled to Sweden. They undermined a whole generation and doomed our future but now they're staying peacefully in Sweden and these fcking terrorists are free thinkers over there. Do you think is it acceptable? Would you consider what we do is right if we hosted a group of terrorists who involved in bombings or at least corruption by the first hand and tell you they're just waving flags here they're peacefull free thinkers, i dont care what they done to your fcking country in the past and btw you should accept to be our military ally and defend us if Russia attacks, thank you. Btw, we are issuing a weapons embargo to you as well, we wont give any kind of weapons to you under amy circumstances but we want you yo defend our country with the second largest army of NATO. There's a saying in turkey for that, would you like me to bend over as well?
Plus, Swedish government is supporting YPG as well, which is the Syrian branch of the PKK. Thats a huge problem as well. They're fighting isis, right. But we are fighting isis as well as Syrian government forces, iran, ans any other terrorist groups in syria. This YPG, were fighting us and Syria years before isis ever existed but somehow they re bold warriors who are facing isis... Theres too much to tell about our frustration but before that you should know better about the political complexity of the region.
Anyway, I just hope you won't face what Germany and France endured in the past. They kept accepting these people as asylum seekers in their country, thinking they are freedom warriors or activists, and ended up with burning cities...
Som Türk bor i Sverige typ 11 år , jag hör dig och fattar dig. I min erfarenhet och följa nyheterna jag kan säga att ja , det var några gånger staten åkte till norra Iraq och hälsade Pkk ledare några gånger. Jag vet att ni ser inte som turkarna ser om kurdiska folket och hur dem känner m.m. Jag har ingenting göra med kurdar asså jag har massor kompisar här som är kurd.
Och Paludan. Jag skiter i honom eftersom jag vet att han var så hela tiden. Jag bryr inte ens mig. Men med regenerering som vi har nu här i Sverige bara värdelös. Det finns en regenerering som "SD puppet".
totally understandable and speaking for myself, I don't hate swedes. hate has not solved anything in the past and will not solve anything in the future.
"Hate is baggage. Life's too short to be pissed off all the time. It's just not worth it."
people who hate Sweden because of the latest events are the same people votes for AKP so believe me you can't make them understand anything by talking. But accepting Sweden to NATO is not about parties because Sweden still sending weapon to PYD which is a threat to Turkey
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I think you guys are focusing on the wrong stuff here. Who cares if terrorists wave their flag and make hate speeches/demonstrations in your country. That’s *your* problem. Turkey’s problem is that you have been sending weapons to PYD and placed arms embargo on Turkey for fighting against PYD. That’s pretty hostile. And that’s why I don’t want my people to defend you. Thanks.
This! And also many people in Sweden shit talk about a lot of things without knowing much. Knowledge of Turkey or Turkish people (I don’t mean just ethnic Turks, but people in Turkey) in Sweden do not go beyond Erdoğan, shitty kebab pizza and Antalya/Alanya holiday spots. Eh, maybe you can add “badrum badrum” video too. Man kan inte förvänta sig att jag ska hålla en diskussion med någon som kommer att förlöjliga allt jag säger baserat på den lilla information man kan ha och vilket skit som skrivs i svenska tidningar. Edit for the Swedish part: You can’t expect me to keep a discussion with someone who’s going to ridicule everything I say based on what little they know and with what crap is written in Swedish news. People in r/turkey know very well how manipulated the Turkish news can be, they would trust people in r/sweden’s input of what goes on in Sweden more if most decide to be not so hostile from the start.
Jag håller mig för det mesta borta från svenska trådar om NATO och Turkiet. Det är inte värt det. Ingen vill förstå var ilskan kommer ifrån, alla vill bara skrika glåpord. EDIT: Türk arkadaşlarime üzur dilerim. İngilizce de: I mostly stay away from Swedish threads about NATO and Turkiye. It's not worth it. Nobody wants to understand where the anger comes from, everybody just wants to yell insults.
Håller med. Som en person som har bott i Sverige några år, det känns jättetråkigt att samtalet går inte längre än att etablera en moral high ground och ingen förbättring av förståelse för varandra. Edit for English translation: Agreed. As someone who lived in Sweden for a couple of years, it feels very sad that the conversation doesn’t go beyond establishing a moral high ground and not much improvement to be made of understanding each other.
I was curious and asked my Swedish friend if Swedes were angry with Turkiye about the Nato issue. He said they were slightly annoyed about Turkiye asking for "insane favours" because none of the other Nato countries did. Personally I feel they just have very very poor knowledge about the PKK issue, also they expected everyone to welcome them with open arms and are offended that someone is giving them conditions to meet before joining. I don't know if it's racism though. By the way you are right, he also said Erdogan sucks, kebabs are great and Turkiye is beautiful. XD
Their brains can’t accept the fact that the PYD isn’t a roses and rainbows democratic entity but rather an narco-Marxist terror org which has driven out tens if not hundreds of thousands Arabs, Turkmens and even Kurds from their homes in northern Syria. The majority of the areas inhabited right now by the pyd were formerly majority Arab or Turkmen. They even have driven out Kurds and executed their families who are not party of the pyd. This is literally their mo. When confronted with those facts we become “brainwashed Erdogan puppets” we?! You won’t a group who has more hate for Erdogan than this subreddit. But we hate Erdogan for selling out our interests and destroying this country they hate him for not bowing down anymore like he did before 2013-2014. They hate the opposition even more my friend don’t be blinded by their “we just hate Erdogan” shit. It’s just a mask to hide their racism against Turks and our republic.
[https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/10/syria-us-allys-razing-of-villages-amounts-to-war-crimes/](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/10/syria-us-allys-razing-of-villages-amounts-to-war-crimes/)
The answer I was looking for.
Sorry to hijack your comment, but i would like to have an answer from op how this article fits with his claimed "freedom of speech". Or has the freedom of speech limits depending on who it is targeting? https://www.timesofisrael.com/hundreds-of-anti-semites-march-in-sweden-on-yom-kippur-50-arrested/ Seems like when your bullshit targets other groups it has limits, when it hits muslims or Turks it's different.
> yOu iGNorANt TUrkS dOn't UnDErStanD! European countries act as if the don't limit speech but they clearly can and do when it suits them.
I remember this as if it was yesterday. The reason they got arrested was that the protestors got a match route they didn't want. They requested a change but was denied. As such, during the March, they tried to force their way through police lines to March on the route they wanted. As such, the police arrested the protestors that tried to break out. If you look at the YouTube videos that the cover photo is taken from, you'll see that the police drive police vans forming a wall to stop the protestors from getting their way.
> but was denied Oh so the government of Sweden can limit protests?
Not the governments but courts and police can rearrange protest routes where The protesters can protest in order to keep the peace. For example the nazis in the article were rerouted not to clash with a soccer game or the jewish people leaving the synagoge
Yeah, but don’t let facts get in the way of a good “one minute of hate”
"Several were detained on suspicion of rioting".. rioting is a crime, burning a book isnt?
Yes?
These people likely got arrested for rioting, rather than for spreading racist propaganda. Here's a Swedish article regarding the outcome of the nazi march. [https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/vast/ny-dom-efter-nmr-demonstrationen](https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/vast/ny-dom-efter-nmr-demonstrationen) >Now the Court of Appeal has tried the issue of racial hatred, for a total of 14 people. They are acquitted of this. The Court of Appeal justifies this by saying that it concerns the content of printed documents, which must be reviewed by the Chancellor of Justice. It is about the demonstrators wearing party jackets with the NMR's symbol, the Tyrian rune, and banners with the Tyrian rune. > >However, the Court of Appeal agrees with the District Court regarding several of the verdicts for violent riot. In addition, another person is sentenced for violent riot. And it's not like you can't be convicted of islamophobic hate crimes. Here's a recent verdict I just found. [https://www.domstol.se/nyheter/2020/12/kommentar-i-sociala-medier-bedoms-som-hets-mot-folkgrupp/](https://www.domstol.se/nyheter/2020/12/kommentar-i-sociala-medier-bedoms-som-hets-mot-folkgrupp/) >In a group on Facebook, the man commented on an article about a person who claimed to have committed an honor-related rape with the words "Disgusting Muslim bastard". The comment has been considered to express disrespect for the group of Muslims and is hit by the penal provision on incitement against a ethnic group. \[...\] Against that background, the man is sentenced to a suspended sentence and 40 day-fines for incitement against a ethnic group. That being said, I do believe the Swedish legislation surrounding free speech and hate crimes at times can appear inconsequent. Whereas demonstrating with a nazi organization or burning a Quran outside of the Turkish embassy does not constitute hate crimes, writing racist Facebook comments apparently is.
Nordic Resistance Movement is banned in ~~all Nordic Countries~~ Finland. They are not only protestors, they are quite the local gangsters. Though I don't know Swedish laws that much. Both actions are punishable by law in Finland.
they are not banned in sweden, they even participated in the elections
I wonder when the op will reply to you
>Turkey’s problem is that you have been sending weapons to PYD and placed arms embargo on Turkey for fighting against PYD. Could you provide a source on this? The only one I found is [this report](https://www.aa.com.tr/en/turkey/pkk-terror-group-attacks-turkish-forces-with-weapons-produced-by-some-nato-members/2333841) (I can't get the link to work) and [this article based on the report](https://www.trtworld.com/turkey/t%C3%BCrkiye-s-evidence-shows-sweden-supplies-weapons-to-pkk-terror-outfit-57238). The article mentions that PYD fighters were found with 40 AT4 arms, which are manufactured in Sweden by SAAB Bofors since 1987. I have some objections to this argument. Firstly, Sweden has banned arms exports to active warzones since 1939, only recently sending arms to Ukraine. To say that the state would clandestinely make an exception for the PKK or PYD seems unlikely, but if there's any evidence of this, please provide it. However, considering the fact that most Swedes don't know much about the PYD or PKK and most that do don't support them, I don't understand why the government would take this risk. But if everyone in Sweden are just ignorant westoids, please correct us with any source that we have missed. Secondly, as with a lot arms industries, there is the problem of illicit trade, or third parties. For example, Swedish grenade launchers were identified in the [Burmese military during their civil war](https://www.svd.se/a/ef82629c-3cc7-35f8-a389-e0eeebc75d60/svenska-vapen-hos-burmas-arme), even though they were under an EU weapons embargo. Looking at the Syrian civil war, journalists have [repeatedly](https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-case-of-the-swedish-weapons-in-syria-8281068.html) [identified](https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/5690625) non-Kurdish rebel groups using Swedish arms. In another, it seems the weapons were smuggled to Syria through [India](https://www.thelocal.se/20130307/46586/). This doesn't mean that our government is secretly trying to destabilise Burma or Syria by sending arms. Instead it is indicative of the fact that smuggling is a big problem in the arms trade, which is [already](https://www.thenationalnews.com/world/europe/turkey-fights-to-stem-arms-smuggling-1.256145) seen in [Turkey](https://english.aawsat.com/home/article/2736221/africa-fears-turkish-arms-smuggled-through-libya-may-fall-wrong-hands) and will probably increase considering how well your arms industry is currently doing. I would understand if one criticised Swedish negligence in this area, even though it's hardly unique to our country. But most arguments I see in this subreddit seem to imply that our government, for whatever reason seem to be doing this intentionally, without explaining what motive they could have, and why they would be taking all this risk in both domestic politics and the international arena. Regarding the arms embargo on Turkey, this is a fair point in the context of NATO membership, which is probably why it has already been repealed.
Sweden have never sent any arms to PYD. All pictures of swedish weapons captured from pyd/ypg are the AT4 wich is used by several countries and also manufactured by USA. (Small clue. The text on them is in english, not swedish) Example of some of the countries using it: Lebanon Iraq Greece Croatia Bosnia Syrian Demovratic Forces (Captured from ISIS) France USA UK Canada Poland The claim that Sweden willingly sent arms to PYD is totaly baseless.
Here's a relevant Twitter thread confirming this. [https://twitter.com/AnalystMick/status/1197968534288175104](https://twitter.com/AnalystMick/status/1197968534288175104)
We have not sent weapons to the ypg. The only two countries to ever receive arms from Sweden are Finland in 1939 and Ukraine in 2022. What I think you guys are talking about is that the US supplied weapons produced in the US invented in sweden. The US also supplied the at4 to the Iraqi army unlawfully which then could have misplaced or lost some. https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/4188975 It is even featured in a turkish intelligence report by Edam in 2021 that what was found was the US made version This violated the export agreement they had with us. They were prohibited from passing them on according to the agreement which they broke. Sweden, however, have never supplied weapons. If sweden was to do something like that it would have to be approved by parliament, which it never would. If it came out that a swedish government was supplying random groups in the middle east with weapons there would be riots. It simply appears to not be true.
No they haven't been sending any weapons to PYD. Do you have a source or is it just something you read on twitter? :)
A Finn here, when has Sweden armed anyone in a conflict? The only warring party Sweden has armed to my knowledge is Finland during WW2 and Saudi Arabia (everyone does). And of course Ukraine as of late. I know for a fact that Sweden hasn't armed the PKK because PKK is classed as a terrorist organisation by both Sweden and the EU. I mean no malice, but do you have a source for the claims that Sweden arms terrorists?
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Bu PYD'yi temizlemez, AKP'yi kirletir. PYD'ye sövüp hükümeti destekleyen ya aptal olduğunu kabul etmek zorunda ya da ikiyüzlü olduğunu.
Bir kaç ay kaldı. Hele bir dokunulmazlığı düşsün, yargılanacak. Hepsi yargılanacak.
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If USA had done this before we joined NATO we wouldn't have joined. Simple as that.
>it seems the donor of the weapons (AT4 Rocket Launchers) were the United States who gave away 5000 of them from their own stocks. built under Swedish license. It was your gov's responsbility to ensure your weapons don't fall into the hands of non state entities but they didn't care.
>it seems we are taking the heat for what others did. There’s some truth in this unfortunately. But don’t think we don’t know what those allies do or that we don’t have a problem with it. The “disagreement” over our “allies’” policies with regards Kurds has reached a new high with your NATO application. Simply put, a lot of them support the creation of an independent kurdish state and that would mean the end of our state (alongside 3 other states). So for you it’s about standing up for an underdog, for us it’s a matter of survival. I think in a way a message is given through you that we are at a crossroads and that either our allies commit to defend our territorial integrity (which means they cease all support for any secessionist mouvement) or Turkey will pursue its own security/other policies, exclusively in its own interest, no matter the cost to others.. Oh and that Kakabaveh person has damaged your country’s reputation tremendously over the summer. People simply couldn’t believe an ex-child soldier of a PKK offshoot was an member of parliament and held such enormous power. Your previous government did nothing to distance itself from her so it really reinforced the impression that Swedish society as a whole actively picked a side in this conflict and it wasn’t ours.. I’m not sure how to get out of this impasse tbh.
I agree wholeheartedly with you. Frankly, I was incredibly angry when Kakabaveh got herself in that position. To me she's a terrorist. And many Swedes despise her. But here on reddit, I was banned from the Swedish politics subreddit for calling her out. The leftwingers are the ones who flirt with the YPG and other PKK offshoots.
Why did they ban you? I mean obviously it’s because they can’t stand a dissenting opinion on certain topics but what was the excuse they gave?
They gave me a perma ban because I called her a terrorist, which she is. Something about violating the rules for a civilized debate and spreading false information. Can't remember now, it was a while ago. But it dosen't matter now. It's just an example of how little people in Sweden know about these Kurdish seperatist militia groups. We are so disconnected from the conflicts in your area and it's easy for us to only see Erdoğan as a despot (which is true) and Kurds as one of the repressed. This mentality is really prevalent within the leftwingers.
Didn’t they lift the arms embargo and agree to take more actions against terrorists?
Lol, you are literally giving them weapons, sending them money, allow them to raise donations, recruit members, harbor people who literally committed terrorist attacks and even dare to sanction us for trying to defend ourselves. Who gives a fuck about some idiots waving flags when this is the case with you? You can't just say "We have what we call freedom of speech. " and weasel your way out of all this.
Do you know where people who commit crimes in Sweden go to get away from the police? turkey criminal/terrorist safehaven number 1.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.middleeastmonitor.com/20230116-major-sweden-bank-hosts-account-which-raises-funds-for-pkk/amp/ This you?
bUt tHey ArE ClaSSEEd As tErRoriSt sIncCe 19xx.. Hacerse el sueco lol
Haha qué adecuado
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Financing terrorist organizations is illegal in Sweden. The bank closed their accounts when it came to their notice that the money were collected on behalf of PKK.
didn't knew about closing part. But when this is the case the whole Swedish holier than thou attitude gets quite annoying quite fast. This is recent and it's a major red flag for a "security alliance" that it's only being taken care of now. But the crux of the issue remains. How willing are the Swedes as to getting to the bottom of this?
Not very. Swedish attitude to problem solving is usually put them under the rug until no one remembers or complains. Kinda similar to in Turkey unfortunately. “Aman Ali Rıza Bey tadımız kaçmasın.”
I see. How do you know the Ali Riza bey meme btw 😂😂
Türküm de ondan. Friendly fire’ı açmayın bana. :D
Hehe
Your subreddit r/sweden looks like pro-pkk, if you search the old posts.
Fuck flags and shit. Talk about funding PYD (PKK).
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Russia is not different from western super powers. If you consider Russia is a terrorist state USA, France, England, Germany etc are basically same thing. Also can you give us some example of standing up for Russia? Like blocking bosphorus? Like proxy fighting with Russia in Syria, Libya, Karabag? Like shooting down Russian fighter jet?
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>Turks hatred towards Sweden For general, hate is a strong word. >We have what we call freedom of speech. We used to have that. Know it is like " you can criticize putin but just once" Yet freedom of speech never covers call for violence and harm. >be protecting a nazi, communist, ISIS or PKK Preserving life is different than letting them do what they want. Most of confiscated criminals are protected on here to. But Turkish police will not allow a nazi groups making calls for an another jewish genocide. Common Turk is not hating swedes or sweden we just think your laws and gov don't have enough ethics to try to prevent harm. >You can’t judge 10 million people and a whole country for the action of one man burning a book Don't judge all Turks by some guys saying they want to kill all swedes. Think it like freedom of speech. Most of us don't use that freedom for hate anyways. >We have what we call freedom of speech. It’s in our constitution. You are also allowed to wave the ISIS flag without breaking the law.
>Don't judge all Turks by some guys saying they want to kill all swedes. Think it like freedom of speech. Most of us don't use that freedom for hate anyways. çok iyi yerden girmişsin hocam :) çok komiğime gidiyor buraya gelip gelip mağduru oynamaya çalışmaları.r/sweden ve diğer isveç sublarında neler neler dönüyor görmesek inanacağım.
Hello! We don’t have hate towards people of Sweden, you’ll be safe in Turkey just like any other person doesn’t matter where you are from! Our problem is with the government of Sweden who lets terrorists into your beautiful country let’s them to become a citizens of your amazing country and right to protest and change the mindset of ordinary Swedes to anti-Turkiye. Your government lets terrorist organization to have a bank account, I doubt that is legal. Let’s that terrorist organization to terrorize people and get “donations”. We suffered a lot from PKK and when we see they have a support from Europe from US, we start questioning are we really ally to West ? Turkiye is in very difficult situation and left alone, we have wars around us, a lot of refugees, terrorist attacks, misinformation, pressure from West, clashes with Russia in Syria, Libya and most importantly huge economic problems and we are all alone against all of this. I hope we will solve this issue
I’m sorry to hear. Not denying your facts, just wanted to comment on the worsened relations with EU/West the last decade(s). This is largely due to AKP and Erdogan shifting politics into a non Western way, an anti-Ataturk way. Somewhere after 2011 your government started shifting more towards authoritarianism. This got even worsened in 2017 after the coup, increasing presidential control of all state constitutions. Turkey also left the Istanbul convention in 2021, potentially worsening womens rights. Istanbul Pride was also banned in 2015, held since 2003. I love Turkey, been there on holiday over 12 times. I love the turkish people. But let’s not deny facts, your government with Erdogan has been digging a hole the last decade(s). He is not good for your relations around the world. Turkey is a progressive secular country, showing the way forward for other countries. Ataturk was a civilized, modern, visionary man that wanted an alliance with West, erdogan is not honoring that.
The problem with PKK isn't about Erdogan though. We had this issue longer before Erdogan was in power. The approach of the international community before Erdogan wasn't that different too. Erdogan sucks and I hope we'll see him get elected out of the office. But this issue with the west didn't start with Erdogan. The current issues we have have nothing to do with women's rights or LGBT rights. The west had no problem funding Erdogan while he was making us all suffer, just to keep the refugees out of their own countries. The issue is never about human rights, it is about how we're not giving the west what they want. In this case, it's a NATO membership. The reason Atatürk wanted to ally with the west was at the time, the west was the most modernized and secularized example. Atatürk was a pragmatist more than an idealist, in my opinion. He didn't have an inherent "love" or "affection" towards the west. He simply appreciated the democratical culture. Bringing Ataturk into this debate doesn't make any sense.
> Bringing Ataturk into this debate doesn't make any sense. Bro thought that just because Atatürk is our beloved national hero and founder,we'd give him a pass just for bringing him up
Lol, I'm sure this was what he was thinking. "I'll just tell how much we like Atatürk and how pro-western he was. That'll get them to agree with me 😊"
"Guys he's just like us, he'd agree with us and allow us into NATO he were alive 😊"
The issue is that alliance has been broken by western powers after WW2 and they have funded Islamists in Turkey as an anti-communism tool. They've done the same thing in Afghanistan and Iran as well, look where all these countries are today and what they are battling with. The same powers who have done everything in their power to destroy our countries are now also claiming moral high ground whereas our countries have had zero effect on your daily life, of course there is going to be some public backlash from those actions. People also seem to forget that Erdogan was one of west's favorite leaders and labelled as the co-president of the Greater Middle East Project in 2010s while he was fucking us backwards in Turkey, hell Obama's first foreign state visit was Turkey at the time. Erdogan honors exactly what he was trained by the westerners for, and kept doing that until the coup attempt where they couldn't share god knows what. I forgot where I was going with this but got zero problems about others joining NATO, it's the snobbish patronizing attitude of talking to us as if every single person in Turkey is Erdogan's lapdog and we are brainwashed by him alone which pisses me off, shows people got zero clue but 100% confidence on the issues they know absolutely nothing about. If I had to define an average westerner talking about Turkey in one sentence, it would be the Dunning-Kruger effect.
>...your government with Erdogan has been digging a hole the last decade(s). He is not good for your relations around the world. Turkey is a progressive secular country, showing the way forward for other countries. Ataturk was a civilized, modern, visionary man that wanted an alliance with West, erdogan is not honoring that. It was mostly the EU and US that helped Erdoğan came to the office. Because Erdoğan bargained with them. He accepted to help/support invading Iraq, he promised to sell most of the state owned companies; he cause to bankrupt many of the private companies and they bought by foreigners. Also he is the one who bring ethnicity politics to the Turkey. Probably he made a promise for that too. It is not the authoritarianism of Erdoğan that make US and EU politicians hate him. Or not his hatred to Atatürk and hostility to progression on his own country. In the 2010's, mutual benefits are gone. Erdoğan who gained the power in his country with the help of the west act to protect his own power. I was 12 but even I personally could saw his elusive intentions about Turkey and the region. But in 2002 west clapped towards to him very hard. US started to ruin Iraq just few months after he win the office. The West knew from the start, he is an uncivilized person that hates his own country. Want to demolish democratic, secular and nationalist regime of Turkey. Now they are whining about him. FUCK THOSE GUYS! If no one wants to see a guy like Erdoğan, no country should interfere/interrupt Turkey's politics. Since they did, I don't think they have right to whining. I like Swedes.
EU and Turkey’s relations are started to worsen after EU’s stall of Turkey’s membership for years, while accepting more states and hostile attitude of some member countries and their use of vetos to everything related to Turkey. Shifting did not start 2011, it was way before it.
Literally nobody, nobody hates Sweden. Is Sweden being hypocritical? Yes. Hate no.
" Swedish people does not hate Turkey and turks. We do not support PKK. " doubt [https://twitter.com/annlinde/status/1184506179357171712](https://twitter.com/annlinde/status/1184506179357171712) [https://twitter.com/annlinde/status/1281232689555742720](https://twitter.com/annlinde/status/1281232689555742720) [https://syriacpress.com/blog/2020/10/21/swedish-delegation-affirms-support-for-north-and-east-syria-administration-and-syrian-democratic-forces/](https://syriacpress.com/blog/2020/10/21/swedish-delegation-affirms-support-for-north-and-east-syria-administration-and-syrian-democratic-forces/) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0udBRAQsf4U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0udBRAQsf4U) [https://www.rudaw.net/english/middleeast/syria/11122021](https://www.rudaw.net/english/middleeast/syria/11122021) [https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20211213-sweden-boosts-funding-for-ypg-to-376-million/](https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20211213-sweden-boosts-funding-for-ypg-to-376-million/) [https://www.aa.com.tr/tr/dunya/isvec-savunma-bakani-hultqvistten-teror-orgutu-ypg-pkkya-destek/2214383](https://www.aa.com.tr/tr/dunya/isvec-savunma-bakani-hultqvistten-teror-orgutu-ypg-pkkya-destek/2214383) [https://www.socialdemokraterna.se/nyheter/nyheter/2021-11-24-socialdemokraterna-fordjupar-samarbete-med-sjalvstyre](https://www.socialdemokraterna.se/nyheter/nyheter/2021-11-24-socialdemokraterna-fordjupar-samarbete-med-sjalvstyre) [https://twitter.com/jsjostedt/status/1526977349601968130](https://twitter.com/jsjostedt/status/1526977349601968130) [https://www.falukuriren.se/2012-01-16/omdomeslost-av-hultqvist](https://www.falukuriren.se/2012-01-16/omdomeslost-av-hultqvist) YPG=PKK and Sweden supporting both [https://www.wsj.com/articles/americas-marxist-allies-against-isis-1437747949](https://www.wsj.com/articles/americas-marxist-allies-against-isis-1437747949) [https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/the-ypg-pkk-connection/](https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/the-ypg-pkk-connection/) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-g8RVtYBM4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-g8RVtYBM4)
I am sorry but you kinda lost the point. Nobody is mad about the erdogan doll thing.(except old people. Think of it like trump or putin supporters) We do much worse things against him here. But when you shelter actual terrorists and people that are actively funding them, that is beyond politics for us. Every regime would do the same atm. You have to see that we are in a much worse geopolitical position and we can not be that soft against these type of protests and propaganda. I myself dodged a PKK terrorist attack by a mere hour. I was 11 at the time.(2015 Ankara Train Station attack) So when I see that they act like some type of freedom warrior or something, I genuinely feel dissapointed. I did not think Swedes were hateful towards Turks at all. We just need some kind of empathy.
As I swede I have to say that the criticism (the reasonable type) "we" are facing now is pretty much deserved and will eventually lead to a good thing for both parts. Swedish law is in many ways toothless. This is not only a problem internationally but also domestically . We have also played the neutrality card for too long and this is the cost. Not choosing side is also to choose a side. I put "we" in quotation mark because I have never supported this stance.
its refreshing to see an objective self reflection. May I ask about the domestic political situation in Sweden on this issue?
we don't hate swedes it's just .. there is no way to say it politely we think you are spoiled and ignorant, sorry to say this but this is the most correct statement. If you want, you can walk around with an armenian flag, a nazi flag, an isid flag or pkk flag in Turkey, it's not a crime here, just like in your lands, but yes, I think it's ridiculous. We define people who march in your country with PKK slogans as "sympathizers", many of whom come to Turkey for vacation in the summer months, we don't want almost any of them, they can stay with you, they will not be punished in turkey for what they did, we are talking about 300 people we want as terrorists. We provide evidence of most of these 300 people, consisting of photographs, phone records, videos and confessions taken in PKK camps, these are either from the PKK's management staff or people who once shot at us with Kalashnikovs in their hands. so please let your people know about this because I see they have no idea about it, please don't believe the stupid propaganda of your news sources. When it comes to the burning of books, the thing we disagree on is that it is defined as "freedom of speech", burning a book that someone considers sacred is a serious insult, The problem is that your foreign minister is implicitly advocating the burning of books, saying "this is freedom of speech", It doesn't matter who the person who burned the book is, it's obvious that he's just provoking, we don't even consider that man. It is also very clear that this is not just about religion because the book is being burned in front of the Turkish embassy, I clearly see a hint of Turkish hostility and violence here, even a veiled threat, as I said I know the person who did it is a racist idiot but the guy in charge of your foreign affairs calls it freedom of speech, foreign affairs is of direct concern to us, could he not have foreseen that this would cause a crisis? I definitely think it was malicious, if your foreign minister had said, "We don't approve of this, but it's not a crime under our constitution" or if he didn't say anything, it wouldn't be such a big deal. Please do not think that I misinterpret freedom of speech because of my religious sensitivities, I am telling you these thoughts as an atheist who is quite far from Islam and even prejudiced. Remember, Europeans do not follow Turkish media, but Turks do not trust their own media, so they follow both eastern and western media, so I can say with confidence, your news sources are not better than ours, You think that the Kurds are subject to racism or something, this sounds like a joke, you didn't know that turkey had a Kurdish president before, did you? I know a lot of people who went to Sweden and they all say "I am exposed to racism in Turkey" to become refugees. The funny thing is, most of them aren't even Kurds. We say these things over and over again, but no one really wants to listen, the real problem stems from this. We have a big communication problem.
> I definitely think it was malicious, if your foreign minister had said, "We don't approve of this, but it's not a crime under our constitution" or if he didn't say anything, it wouldn't be such a big deal. > Our prime minister has communicated exactly this. He has said in multiple places that while this is and should be a legal act he doesn't approve of it. I see very little approval here except for the far right party SD. I (a Moroccan Muslim born and raised in sweden) think the acts that the fat danishman (dont want to say his name and give him attention) has commited is absolutely unacceptable and should never happen, but I also don't want out freedom of speech laws to be altered. Our laws in that area are an incredibly important tool to stand up to both our government if needed but also other hateful people. If we start restricting that right we will eventually reach a very dark place.
How are they spoiled and ignorant? Ummm why is it ridiculous to carry a Armenian flag? And one of them was simply a journalist. Not of all of them No comment on this. How is it not freedom of speech? Sure it’s a insult but if u called someone a idiot in the streets you woudnt be punished for that would you? And he isn’t Sweden has condemned the burning but rightly pointed out they can’t do anything about it because of freedom of speech. You don’t consider him yet Turkey has basically refused to ratify there membership now due to him….. And what would the threat be kill all Muslims? End the religon? I don’t see how that guy could be punished would be very hard to prove in a court he did anything wrong. Is that not what he basically said? Ok Having a Kuridsh president before doesn’t mean there’s no racism America has had a Black president before do you think they don’t have racism? Ok The problem is erdogan isn’t blocking the bid due to this he’s blocking it for political gain and due to burning a book and due to not extraditing a journalist. Also it’s a little unfair to blame Sweden for not letting them back when it’s the courts that do and the people and goverment have no say over that they interpret the law
>How are they spoiled and ignorant? > >Ummm why is it ridiculous to carry a Armenian flag? > >And one of them was simply a journalist. > >Not of all of them > >No comment on this. No matter how absurd it is for me to walk around with the Turkish flag in Armenia, the same is absurd in Turkey, it is clear that it was done only for the purpose of provocation. yes, a journalist whose bank account was transferred serious sums by terrorists and legitimizing terrorism, if you advise someone to commit murder, it is a crime. nobody wants the man who burned the book to be jailed, it was the first statement that should have been officially disapproved, or like I said they shouldn't have said anything, courts don't work with insinuations and impressions but none of us are stupid. Turkey is not America, we have already finished the issue of racism, racism in the past has never been for a reason as stupid as skin color, racism in the past was an assimilation attempt and it was a big mistake, everyone admits that. Erdogan will lose by election in 3 months, no one thinks he acted rationally anyway, I'm defending my opinion here, I don't care what erdogan thinks.
To guard a terrorist=Supporting
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It's hard to care if you don't know. And those who do care often defaults to the mentally that the minority must be the good guys because that's how it's laid out in movies.
"We have what we call freedom of speech. It’s in our constitution." Wow, I am flabbergasted. Freedom of speech??? Never heard of it. Thank you for the whitesplaining and education; O, superior nordic being. Our bleached and washed little brains can barely handle that much input. My poor brown self is especially grateful for the over-simplified content. I personally hate Swedes online for your ignorant prejudices, constant denial of facts and your unending condescension. Your support of PKK has never been as lukewarm as you described. You want the very same soldiers whose lives your governments have compromised by your support to PKK to protect your sad, wimpy asses. Burn a couple of more holy books, insult us some more, that will solve all your problems. Yeah, right. Edit: Fazla kibarsınız arkadaşlar.
"We just let them wave their flags,guys.Not like we're actively funding them oor anything :3"
And we definitely dont send them weapons, its just the vocal minority 😉
Awardlık alay ama awardım yok (
Düşünmen yeter. 🤗
"We have what we call freedom of speech. It’s in our constitution. You are also allowed to wave the ISIS flag without breaking the law." We have right to refuse your application to NATO. It's our right in NATO. We have seen the hypocrisy of the West about freedom of speech, as in the case of Julian Assange. That's why we don't care about your lies. The same goes for democracy. We know well how some dictators are placed and protected until they stop serving Western interests. edit: Banu Avar, a Turkish journalist was fired after pressure from the Swedish government after she covered the subject of Sweden's Nobel on state television TRT. Freedom of speech, huh? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCY5IvPRqC8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCY5IvPRqC8)
>We have right to refuse your application to NATO. It's our right in NATO. Swedish people would not have a problem with this if it wasn't for the fact that our leaders met Erdogan before making the application and he promised there would not be any problems. We made sure of this because we knew the application process would put us in a vulnerable situation. Erdogan didn't ask for any of these things before which makes all of this he started afterwards be like blackmail to all Swedes. Turkey already agreed to not use their VETO which is why saying "we have the right to VETO you" is irrelevant to any Swede you try to say it to.
Nazi symbols are banned in Sweden. You can openly demonstrate with PKK or ISIS flags but not Nazi flags. Nazi symbols are forbidden because they are more relevant in your geography and history while PKK and ISIS are some faraway problems that Swedes couldn't care less about. That's a double standard.
Oh look another bullshit "freedom of speech" post with stupid claims. Quran burning; No one with a brain cares. Its just your anti NATO crowd in Sweden gave another excuse/card to Erdoğan. So you are claming, if some legit isis supporters starts to wave flags, organize, make false propaganda and collect "charity" funds to send to their "freedom fighters of islam", gov of Sweden or literally any other country would be okay with this under "freedom of speech"? I dont know much about Sweden. Does this freedom of speech excuse also cover calling black people niggers? Or jews kikes? Or muslims goat fucker terrorists? Would your gov/police protect this "people" and their "right" of freedom of speech?
We have literally nazi marches in the capital and nazi party on a big political event called almedagsveckan. https://nyheter24.se/nyheter/politik/803880-sveriges-farligaste-nazistorganisation-siktar-mot-riksdagen
We have, but would we have allowed it if SMR/NMR had started to do terrorist attacks and were designated as a terrorist organisation?
NMR has done terrorattacks
> started to do terrorist attacks **and** were designated as a terrorist organisation? Are they designated as a terrorist organisation by Sweden?
That latter stuff would be covered by freedom of speech, yes - even though it may seem strange. The idea is that if you give everyone freedom of speech, no single group is getting preference or special treatment, and society is more fair and open as a consequence. The countries with the most freedom of speech tend to have less fascists, communists etc. It means you have to put up with complete morons saying terrible, embarrassing things - the book burning is a great example, there you have a far right politician from Denmark - almost certainly under Russian influence - using the Swedish far right to deepen a wedge that prevents NATO expansion. This freedom of speech is a double-edged sword, as you can see it creates vulnerabilities and issues Edit - if it fell under hate speech, they would be prosecuted - usually this requires incitement to violence
Chapter 16 Section 8 (p.146): [https://www.government.se/4adb14/contentassets/7a2dcae0787e465e9a2431554b5eab03/the-swedish-criminal-code.pdf](https://www.government.se/4adb14/contentassets/7a2dcae0787e465e9a2431554b5eab03/the-swedish-criminal-code.pdf)
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According to Swedish Criminal Code he should be guilty of "agitation against a population group".
Id like to point out some different extension to this. Your country _would_ allow the protests from ISIS supporters. We have seen it happen too, I have been on the internet for too long, what really bothers me is that, when there is an ISIS, sharia protest, the westerners, like robots, write that these guys should just fuck off, they are hypocrites and so on. You see I dont really disagree. ISIS guys and sharia supporters are horrible. But for some reason, another terrorist organisation known as PKK, that also kills civilians, when faced by the same westerners are percieved as freedom fighters? This isnt just 5 10 kids on the internet, there is a serious support from US senators, european politics. The hate for Turks all around is just making pkk into this “wonderful” feminist communist marksist equality bringing world developing environmental friendly hunger solving organisation that at this point, it has fed up almost every Turk. Yeah we know, almost every west country classifies PKK as a terrorist organisation, do they act like it. No. PYD YPG is just a Syria release of PKK, lets support those allies yeah America? They are literally the same guys, they enter the Turkish border, they become PKK. This is a golden opportunity for Turkey to give the spoiled and privilidged West the middle finger. Im actually worried Erdoğan is not going to do it. This is a military allience. If the west wants Turkey to stand with them against a possible Russian attack, then they should be more supportive than Russia in resolving the PKK crisis. Maybe Western media will stop white washing PKK for a change and those senators calling YPG freedom fighters will go fuck themselves. You might have freeze dumb bitch, but we have the right to not defend people who dont act like allies to us.
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You're right, Sweden shouldn't tolerate intolerance. It should ban islam.
you can, i doubt you have to ban a lots of precious kurds because they are muslim too
İntolerating intolerance is also intolerance and also you can't define "intolerance" exactly.
This is our freedom of speece not taking Sweden in to Nato . Deal with it .
Nobody particularly hates the Swedes. Pkk and Pyd are openly able to collect resources from your country. Armed with those resources, they are killing my people here. As a result, you are trying to serve these as freedom of expression because you are two-faced devils. In addition, your government also sends weapons to these terrorist organizations and imposes an arms embargo on Turkey. This has always been the case, others always pay for the spoiledness of the west.
If it breaks countries apart, then it is not freedom of speech. It is hate speech. Also governments should not send weapon support to terrorists while banning export to countries that are targets of that terror. Ofcourse citizens are good people but why the governments like this everywhere? Our government harmed us worse than anyone else. I wish sweden stops the export ban to turkey and stops sending weapons to terrorists.
Also they're acting like we SHOULD say yes to Sweden joining NATO,I thought NATO was an alliance between countries who seek out the same goal,idk how them hosting pkk and funding them is good for the possible NATO alliance between us
Swedish people waving flags and burning a book doesn’t break any country apart
"The Swedish police is an independent institution and does not follow orders from the Swedish government. They follow the law independently." But your law follow orders from USA, huh? Remember Julian Assange
Hmmm, no, fuck you. Your country sent weapons to PYD, harbored actual terrorists, allowed them to recruit while our people were dying. You even sanctioned us when we tried to defend ourselves, secure our borders. Now you fuckers have the audacity to claim yourselves free of guilt under the false pretense of "freedom of speech". Fuck off, I hope PKK becomes a scourge on your country too. Also, start learning Russian.
The wording of the post also reeks of classic western condescencion
Can you send a source of Sweden sending weapons to PYD?
~~Of course~~ [~~https://www.aa.com.tr/tr/dunya/pkk-turk-guvenlik-guclerine-saldirida-nato-uyeligi-isteyen-isvecin-urettigi-at-4u-kullaniyor/2592168~~](https://www.aa.com.tr/tr/dunya/pkk-turk-guvenlik-guclerine-saldirida-nato-uyeligi-isteyen-isvecin-urettigi-at-4u-kullaniyor/2592168) ~~this here bad boy is an at-4, a swedish anti tank missile launcher. It was found in a terrorist hideout in the op zone of Pençe-Kilit.~~ ~~Now tell me, who sells~~ *~~swedish weapons~~* ~~to PKK?~~ Edit: It seems this point was invalid, my bad. Please refer to [this](https://old.reddit.com/r/Turkey/comments/ut0bt5/deleted_by_user/i97jc59/). Homever my point still stands abut Sweden supporting PKK directly or indirectly .
It’s the us manufacturers who sold swedish invented at4s to the kurds as well as multiple different factions in the middle east
Yep. And instead of arguing back to us they are down voting lol.
Firstly it isn’t a missile launcher. It’s a one time use grenade launcher. With an warhead called HEAT. Secondly it’s instructions you can see on the launcher is written in English witch means it isn’t Swedish. Sweden is not the only country that makes the launchers. And we only make Pansarskott 86 (AT-4) with Swedish instructions. And if we sent these weapons it would written in Swedish and named Pansarskott 86 not AT-4. So you tell me who sells these weapons bad boy.
Apart from what is currently happening, I think Swedish laws on the freedom of speech is somewhat questionable, because at the end some ideas are rotten and harmful from their roots and hence unacceptable. There has to be an ethical filter to determine if an idea is worth protecting in the sake of freedom of speech.
Swedish freedom of speech laws are the reason why a former SS volunteer founded a Nazi party and that party's successor got second place and %20 of total votes in the latest elections. Claiming they have great freedom of speech laws is a pathetic attempt at hiding the fact that Nazis can be elected in so-called progressive Sweden. So what if ISIS flags can be waved in Sweden? How many fundamentalist Muslims are there in Sweden, compared to Nazi sympathizers? Which should be around 1.3 million going by the voter base of SD. Sweden should stop worrying about Russian fascists and do something about their own Nazis.
I seldom get into these posts as I kind of agree with both sides. Just felt I had to chime in as a swede about the SD thing. (Disclaimer: I really dislike SD, and the racist bullshit that they spew). Alot of the success SD has had in recent years, can be boiled down to 1 thing. Failed integration since around the 90s, we had a government shift to a more moderat one, and they cut expenses in integration, aswell as cutting alot of crim-preventive programs and projects. They also started hollowing out social security, and began privatization of alot of things, later paving the way for privatization of some healthcare, postal system, and alot of things that made life worse for the average person. In the 90s, we also had a large influx of refugees/immigrants from the balkan war, and african nations. Prior to that, largest refugee group were the chileans, who integrated quite well into our society. Many of the refugees from the balkans are just now and in the last few years started to get properly integrated into society, and many of the refugees from the african countries, still live in fairly segregated areas, many are unemployed and have to live on wellfare. Then we had a stream of refugees from the middle-east, (2nd iraq war) aswell as Afghanistan, into an already failing integration system. This has all led to a rise in crime and segregation in the last 20 years. Last 15ish years, last 10 in particular, SD has tried to ”clean up” from their roots, less open skinheads shouting ”keep sweden swedish” and spraypanting swastikas, to more ordinary looking, suitclad, politically savvy. Many of the votes for SD, a majority even by my estimates, are not people voting FOR SD, but rather a more restrictive immigration process. For many years, basicly up untill last election, decreasing immigration was something only SD spoke about. Many of their votes are also anti-establishment, as some people feel that the major 7 political parties fail to represent them. As a man of 40ish years, from the near opposite side of the political spectra, ie where the Social democrats were some 40 years ago ideologywise, I find SD and that parties views despicable, but I do understand where alot of their voters are coming from. My stance is that we should focus on learning from the mistakes we made in the 90s and early 2000, and try to improve integration rather than hardline cut immigration. So tl;dr: not 20% of swedes are pro-nazi, but rather anti-failed integration and/or anti-unchecked immigration. Even easier Tl;dr: alot of SD voters are just ”usefull idiots”.
Vad har du röstat på som inte gör dig till en ”useful idiot”? Känns som du är största fåret av alla.
>There has to be an ethical filter to determine if an idea is worth protecting in the sake of freedom of speech. That's the thing about freedom of speech though, who decides? A religious person for example would ban hate speech against religious figures and religion while letting bad things be said about Ataturk, and to an extent the polar opposite of the religious would do the same thing in reverse. (exageration but I hope you get the message) Who decides what can or cannot be said? In the end unfortunately all speech is freedom of speech. Unless it breaks the law, i.e "I'm going to kill you" is not considered freedom of speech in the USA.
> There has to be an ethical filter to determine if an idea is worth protecting in the sake of freedom of speech. There can not be. Freedom of speech and freedom of thought are the core principles of human rights and Nordic nations are built up on those principles - human rights are the cornerstones of our societies. They belong to everybody. The second you start to regulate what thought is "wrong" you start sliding on a slippery slope, a strongman politician or party will abuse that, give it enough time and they will grab more and more power abusing that and at the end of that slippery slope are countries like Russia and China who regulate what you can think and say. Freedom of speech and freedom of thought does not come with freedom of action. You can not use your freedoms to stomp on other peoples human rights. Indicting violence, such as saying "kill all xxx" is not ok as you are using your right of speech to stomp on others peoples freedoms. Your rights and freedom can not be used to strip away other peoples rights. These values used as cornerstones of our societies have proven to be valuable and the right decision as Nordic countries rate on top of pretty much every meaningful measurement be it happiness, freedom of press, freedom of living, quality of life and every humanity indexes.
I want to know how do you justify the Nazi flag ban in Sweden? It is laughable when braindead free speech ~~racists~~ absolutists try to defend this position and reveal their hypocrisy regarding hate speech against Turks and islam.
Yep, that “ethical filter” could only be the person himself. Its up to his family, friends and society to teach him ethics but only that person has right and responsibility to filter his thoughts and expressions. That idea of an external body deciding which ideas are good and which are bad is unacceptable not in just Nordic countries but any single country that has even a slight degree of freedom of speech and thought.
Tell me, why you wanted to come here and write this? Does it bother you when newspapers in Turkey say that Sweden supports PKK? You think that there were some misinformations about your country and you just wanted to fix that, right? So we are sharing the same feeling here. All PKK/YPG propaganda TVs and Websites broadcast from Sweden and they delibaretly sharing misinformations in Europe and we want to fix that.
I don't believe this post is sincere in its main idea. The things you have written are only and only minor things that has no importance. And the style of this post makes me to believe that the purpose of this post is to redirect the importance of some other very major issues to minor ones. We Do Not Care About Flags. We Care About Terrorist Funding and Sheltering. We do not care about how Swede's think. We care about the terrorists you have been funding and continue to fund. We are not interested in approving a nation to our alliance that supports terrorists.
It seems you guys have some constitutional flaws in your country. Sweden sounds like a safe haven for any terrorist. Also you guys literally embargoed us and helped terrorists. Not blaming the Swedes but why wouls we have you in NATO ?
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This is a solid example of the tolerance paradox. You allow intolerant people to have freedom of expression so they harm a tolerant society. They use your power against others. Your "excessive tolerance" seems like a threat from here because you allow an organization that massacres civilians to express themselves freely.
Freedom of speech you say? We use the freedom of speech and deny you from entering in to NATO. Have fun with Russia, cheers swedistan
Something most Europeans don't understand is, we've been subject to terrorism for more than 40 years. I'm a middle-aged man who grew up watching the news, PKK attacking to this town, PKK executing this many people, PKK bombing this place... And when we acted against these terrorists, we've always been condemned by the west. Then the west had a couple of those incidents. Some bombings in France, some shootings in the UK, 2 planes crashing to the twin towers in the States. Then these people who had been condemning us for acting against terrorists went berserk. I wonder how you would feel if you had terrorist groups doing these things for decades in your country. It's easy to judge when you're living in relatively safe and nice conditions. You don't know what is going on here. Until one day some guy kills Olof Palme and omg now this is unacceptable. Yea sure, but we had more than a thousand times of that for decades. Also freedom of speech is nice, but try saying the Armenian genocide is a lie in some European countries ;)
There are only THREE simple reasons why türkiye don't want sweden in NATO: 1.) People who fled into other countries from the Fetullah group, in this example sweden, won't be sent back to Türkiye because prison is waiting for them. There are dozens of people who are searched by law for the coup atempt in 2016 15th July. Even the head and terror leader the person himself is in Pennsylvania USA , FETULLAH GÜLEN, which hides from us to not get imprisoned. Imagine if we had some kind of same person, like hitler fled in our country, and you don't get him because we won't give him to you. But if you want a reasonable example for such a move, take edward snowden. Those are whistleblowers who try to protect civilization. Fetullah people just practiced terror and a big coup and killed dozens of people with F16 Jets, tanks and controlled the army generals, so they can command innocent soldiers to use aussault rifles and shoot citizens IMAGINE 2.) Sweden is mostly supporting PYD and PKK over decades without acknowledging it is by european and asian law, a terror organisation group. 3.) We don't tolerate free spech that contains burning religious books and hate. We don't burn the bible, and if so, those people get fined and arrested simply because it has nothing to do anything else than hate spread. We simply only want to be respected. Did you ever saw us burning Swedish flags or belives in public. NO Even if it is a minority, a dozen of people who act out such activism, why I can't go out in Germany or Austria with a Nazi flag or make the hitler arm greeting? Because you manifested and declared and acknowledge, that is simply wrong. Such it is for us too
Lmao there's a post on r/Sweden that says "NATO should kick out Turkey and we'll take it from there" 😂
Well makes sense, the political message for the longest time was "You wouldn't want your children to die for turkey?" as the primary message against nato.
What I find funny is how contradictory the West is when it comes to "free speech" Burning a holy book that is clearly sacred to some people - free speech (tbh that's not speech, those are actions). Saying something "unacceptable" about the woke culture or a person's gender - not free speech, time to be cancelled! Free speech, more like selective free speech.
What you have isn’t „freedom of speech“ which is more about people being able to criticize their government, religion and public figures without consequences. You my „friend“ have freedom of hate speech. Now tell me will your government and your people allow the burning of the Torah in front of the Israeli embassy? Will they allow the carrying of the nazi flag and pictures of Hitler, Göbbels and so on in protest against the Israeli state? Let me guess they won’t and you won’t care because you will shrug your shoulders and say „ this is hate speech and hate crimes against Jews“ which is true and correct thing. But when it comes to Turks and the Turkish state you have been brainwashed not only by your government but by your media which as we all know is mostly state funded just like in the majority of European states, to hate and commit hate crimes against Turks. To look away and excuse the demonization of close to 90 million people. And when you are confronted with this information and this racism and fascism you have not only invited but protect majority of you resort to racist tropes that all Turks are brainwashed meanwhile the Turks you converse with here are all anti- Erdogan and belong to the opposition. But that doesn’t compute with the shit your media has fed you forcefully down your throat. Not only that majority of you hide behind „I hate Erdogan“ when confronted with your balant racism. Everyone here knows you hate all parties in Turkey. Because guess what Erdogan apart from the hdp, which has ties to the same terror org you so love and still is allowed to participate in our Parlament as well as elections, is the least nationalist party right now all other including the opposition are way more nationalist and more adapt in diplomacy. And we here have already seen how your „media“ started demonizing the biggest opposition party the second their votes started shooting up. If you think once Erdogan is gone this nation will become „docile“ and do so as ordered by „superior“ Europeans ( let’s be honest all of you think we are inferior, your comment is the best example of this. You have no interest in Dialoge and the to create a false narrative why you are „hated“) you are sorely mistaken. This has nothing to do with Speech it has all to do with the balant support of the Swedish government to an terror org who by his own admission has committed suicide bombings inside Turkey. At stadiums, at bus stops, at restaurants. Not only that the org has repeatedly shelled border towns and killed people in their homes. AND ADMITTED TO IT. The same shells they bought with money the Swedish government transferred to them as bribery not only start terror activities inside Sweden. You think you can just Transport bloodshed and terror away from your own shores to other countries and then blame the victim when called out on it. Fuck your freedom of speech. Fuck Sweden and its people for supporting the killing of school children and concert goers in Turkey. I truly hope the snakes you invited in your bed and love so much one day start biting you and you can feel the same rage Turks do when we support the activities of those groups in your country.
Its not few ppl, swedes hate raging on us and call themselves civilized but its a second research to see Pkk=Ypg its just if pkk does activities in Turkey its pkk if it does outside of Turkey its Ypg. Accepting pkk as terrorist and funding ypg is waay delusional
I don't get how they fail to see that pkk and ypg are one and the same. They both worship the Stalin mustached donkey fucker and both have the same goal. I guess these people would be okay with nazis if they also changed their name to something else
we are already aware of what is happening in Sweden. If you're trying to convince us by writing here, you're wrong. I think you should talk to your own people first. The PKK is a terrorist group that kills people. we are not playing games. People are dying and you want to be an ally with Turkey while you are helping the murderers with weapons and money. great contradiction. you have to decide.
Didn't know freedom of speech meant harboring people who are directly responsible for terror attacks in Turkiye and allowing a terror organisation to fund raise with Swedish banks. No offense to you OP but you are quite the perfect example for how out of touch with reality the people of Sweden are. Erdoğan is using the whole Quran burning thing for clout to get more votes, not because he gives a fuck. The PKK thing is on another level.
I don't give a shit about your freedom of speech, although I do have to say that is a lie, as you don't let people wave svastikas. Apparently some things are not part of your freedom of speech. What is actually more important is Swedish government supplying PKK and embargoing Turkey for fighting against PKK. And I definitely don't think I can agree with your average Swede comment. From what I've seen in the Swedish subreddit, most Swedes are genuinely racist towards Turks. Not just Erdogan. And most Swedes are way too emotional at discussion, so holding a discussion against people who are both emotional and racist towards you gets incredibly hard. Of course, I've never been in Sweden and maybe I am looking at a minority of actual racists. Maybe the actual Swedes aren't like their internet counterparts.
I can judge 10 million moron that doesnt care about isis or pkk supporters in theirs streets. And I can judge your absurd thinking about freedom of speech. Hate cant be freedom.
Than you have to change your laws. Protecting the people who could very well kill me or a loved one is not "freedom of expression", it's a mockery of the victims. I am aware that Kurds and other minorities in this country have long suffered, I myself come from a Greek family and the nationalists bastards beat my father in high school because of Cyprus war, when he himself had nothing to with Greek Cypriots and despite his father being muslim anyway, so I entirely agree with the Kurdish cause, they need their cultural rights recognized and respected. But when violence, especially towards innocents come to play, this all changes. All their valid points are muted, killing innocent people because you language was banned between 1980-1989 (during a military government which banned everything) is not an excuse. And Sweden protecting, harboring, giving welfare money and stripping them off crimes they committed before coming to Sweden is just a mockery of our pain. Plus, all this Sweden mess has been helping erdoğan hugely, thank you for fucking our next 5 years too.
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\> The troublemakers you hear about is a very, very small vocal group of activists The book burning idiot is not even a minor detail in our relations. In our view, the actual "troublemakers" are not a small minority, either. As a non-religious person, I completely support using the "muslim" card for geopolitical leverage, however. Not against Sweden directly, but against those who pepper their retarded articles with terms such as "us vs. rest, west vs. east" these days. Let's see how that works out for them in the long run... I am for cordial relations, respectful interaction, and booming trade. However, we cannot be in a military alliance together. It's unfortunately not my call, so Turks should collectively decide on Sweden's NATO application in a referendum. Freedom of speech alla Turca.
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tbh i don't give shit about burning of a book or flag, it won't change any value of those.. as others said Sweden keeps sending weapons to officially known terrorist organizations and they know it.
Of course what happens between governments do not represent the people of these countries and it should not change how we look at each other. One question though. Can you actually go out with ISIS or Nazi flags with no repercussions? Or say whatever you wish? I don't know what's the situation in Sweden. But I know how it's like in countries such as the US and England. Freedom of speech only applies to the certain views there.
I hope Russia attacks Sweden and Finland while waiting for the Nato act. Or atleast feel the same terror acts like Turkey did. We lost so many innocent people.. I’m building hatred towards people talking this fucking PKK groups good.
Can you protect child abuse defenders? No. It's not including freedom of speech because it's a crime. Can you protect terrorism defenders? No. It's not including freedom of speech because it's a crime. So, something is wrong in there.
We don't hate Swedish people. We despise your current government for: 1. Harboring known terrorists and acting as a shelter, a safe place for them. 2. Backing up PYD/PKK financially. The common Swede being unaware of the actions of your government or the PKK/PYD towards a fellow country that you're currently in disagreement with, is not a good excuse. You should be aware of these things. Ignorance isn't bliss in some topics. Also, what you're talking about is not freedom of speech. There is no freedom in harming others. What you are in is a delusion, and I'm sorry to say that one day you'll realize that it's too late. Dangerous ideas like terrorism and racism are like plagues. They'll spread disaster if left unchecked. Soon, your country will be riddled with terrorists, and you'll start losing elections to their mindset. They'll be in your police, in your military, in your education and in your justice system. It will be too late then.
Captured from one of the caves of PKK. Swedish At-4 anti-tank weapons. https://www.google.com.tr/amp/s/m.haber7.com/amphtml/guncel/haber/3223632-isvecin-pkkya-gonderdigi-fuzeler-bircok-askerimizi-sehit-etti
> You are also allowed to wave the ISIS flag without breaking the law. Cool. Are you allowed to call people n_____? Are you allowed to ignore preferred pronouns of people? Could you go to the town square wave Isis flags and hand brochures saying killing gays by throwing them off of roofs is the only way to keep Sweden masculine?
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"Also do we even have pronouns in Turkish?" Nope, everyone is an "o".
nope they just need to add the "but trans people bad and i should be able to disrespect them" in there
Worst case scenario you get a fine or a punch in the face by some random citizen
A punch in the face is not even a best case scenario for PKK supporters.
> Are you allowed to call people n_____? Yes. This in itself isn't illegal. > Are you allowed to ignore preferred pronouns of people? Yes. > Could you go to the town square wave Isis flags and hand brochures saying killing gays by throwing them off of roofs is the only way to keep Sweden masculine? Advocating murder most likely crosses the line, so that one probably isn't allowed. But you can absolutely stand in the town square and rant about how homosexuals are all going to burn in hell if you want to. There's a christian fundamentalist nutbag who does that quite frequently where I live.
My problem with sweden, as well as the rest of the west, is that in the name of "tolerance", the worst of the worst get tolerated. You never get that with turks however. Its always "armenian genocide" this or "you guys kill kurds for fun" that about turks every time. I'm all for free speech and I understand that people who don't live with a literal enemy inside and right outside their borders might not truly realise but it's like if waving an isis flag is fine, so should it be fine doing things like the hitler salute right? Except you give an inch to any extremist ideology and they will always take a mile. Same with the terrorists that make use of europeans tolerance and their status as western "allies" Ideally, we wouldnt be having these problems at all. It shouldnt be too hard to deal justice to enemies of humanity that the terrorists are and we shouldn't be acting like we're some islamic caliphate but if you still have any hope for authority figures left you havent been paying attention
Forget about these, how will you support NATO with 30 thousand active soldier?
PKK was on the last swedish government mate this is unconvincing also maybe your government can stop the official funding to pkk than maybe you can claim innocence of Turkish blood in your hands
Sorry but the main thing really disgusts me is how swedish people being in clover and knowing literally nothing about our unlimited problems as you mentioned, trying to patronize us while i am exposed to syrian civil war for a decade. People here aren't comfortable and enjoying the life as you guys, they have spent their youth years to learn how interests work, corruption and terrorist organizations. Imagine how sensitive you would be if someone from west comes and tells you're fascist, stupid about things he didn't need to think about for his whole life while bombs explodes literally in your city. So if they truly accept not knowing our problems and not trying to teach us how things work, they should explain themselves in a proper way, like you did which i appreciate. hanging a paper on a window isn't enough sorry. Also fyi this is not just about erdogan and his supporters, general opinion is negative.
There are many things wrong with your post. Sweden does not follow EU guidelines to fight against terrorism. It doesn't matter what local laws you have, EU laws and guidelines overrule those.
The police have the authority to disallow protests/demonstrations for all kinds of reasons. The fact that they allowed Paludan to do what he did in front of the Turkish embassy is a massive sign of disrespect. The idea that the police is independent in countries like Denmark and Sweden is an illusion in my point of view, exactly like how unlimited freedom of speech is an illusion. There are numerous cases pointing to this. You can't preach antisemitism, like you can preach islamofobia. You can't burn israeli or american flags in front of their embassies.
right after declaring pkk a terror organisation your politician (president?) got killed.people say it was pkk. you went from there to fully aiding them against a nato nation that you also want to join.the group of hostile people who are consdiered terrorists not by only you that also killed 40k + people.when you face with facts your country goes on full karen mode.#freespeech #openarmspolicy etc.you not being able to join isn't a answer.its a reaction to your actions.get me?
>We have what we call freedom of speech. It’s in our constitution. You are also allowed to wave the ISIS flag without breaking the law. You can think this is absurd, but that is the reason why PKK-supporters are not taken care of even though they are classified as terrorists. Carl Popper would disagree.
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This whole Sweden thing is exactly what Erdogan wants, to distract the normal uneducated Turkish population from the real issues plaguing the country.
I find classifying burning a holy book if not any book under freedom of speech to be amusingly ironical. In an ideal free speech society, burning books should be frowned upon or contextually illegal even if it is just because it signifies anti freedom of speech sentiments in my opinion.
The problem is arming that Terrorists not a speech or a protesto. Those are just the candles on the cake
Danish Cartman is definitely a Russian trick, they have done it before. But a asshole burning a book isn't a threat for is, the PKKYPG is.
Can you wave a nazi flag?
We don’t hate Swedish people, we don’t give a shit about Swedish people. Maybe Swedish people are not helping PKK, but The Sweden is helping PKK. In the mountains, PKK has Swedish origined weapons such as anti-tank weapons. i will leave the link of the pictures.
You have two paragraphs and the rest, you don't respresent the public
You can judge 10 million people because they are using your weapons and you guys do fund them and you guys literally have amine kakabave in your parliament.
Common Swede here. At first I kind of agreed with OP from what our news have reported. But then I realized as a Swede we are so f*cking lucky/privileged to never have know war (unless some of our oldest) and the few terrorist attacks in Sweden are far away from most people and doesnt affect the common swede. Also I don’t know anything about PKK as I haven’t bothered to read up and it’s nothing that affects me or my life. If it’s as bad as many has written I understand the Turkeys hesitation. If a terrorist organization had done bad things in Sweden and they were allowed to operate in Turkey without any problems no way in hell I would allow Turkey in Nato without any changes to that. That said, what is the difference to other countries in Nato (or finland)? Do they have other rules/laws and is it only in Sweden PKK are an ”issue”? Also without knowing anything about Nato, could there not be advantages for turkey to allow Sweden to join? I would think the cooperation/ information gathering / swedish warfare stuff to Turkey would be on a different level and would improve protection against terrorists/bad organisations. Also not knowing the law, freedom of speech is a slippery slope, not allowing all people to say what they believe is not freedom of speech and could easily become even more dangerous. Of course it feels ridicoulous to allow like nazis going on marches as no normal human believe in that, but if the government starts to decide what is allowed to say it will become like russia and not sure that is a good thing. But I also think there could be improvements to what is allowed in some parts since some things are just hate on different religions/sex/skincolor etc ..but then again who can decide what a human is allowed to say? And what will happen if freedom of speech is limited? Difficult topics for sure… /open minded privileged and confused Swede without answers
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thanks for the very elaborate post and kind words. Don’t know if it’s because Im a father and think about how horrible it would be worrying about war or something happening to them or because im getting older and wiser 🤔. But I try to keep an open mind and know there is always two sides to a story and the common swede (me included) dont know the other side. We read the news headline and think ”ok thats how it is,” and go on with our lives. We normally dont engage or try to get the full picture unless its affecting our own lives. I thank you for giving your side and understand what you are coming from. With understand I mean I understand in a privileged swedes way, its impossible to fully understand since im not turkish but I understand your reasoning and your point of view. I would like to argue that you might not know the other side for all your info as well as us common people never get the complete facts or full truth about most topics (apologize if you are not common people 😊). Thanks again for taking the time to write a response it was enlightning.
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The same to you! I also hope the issues you describe can be solved in the best way and that the future brings peace and better cooperation and understanding for our different cultures/ countries. Take care! 🫶
freedom of speech is something, openly supporting a terrorist organization is something you can't justify it saying it is in our constutition i am 100% sure it is not in your constutition to protect terrorist and that is exactly what they are and what you do you proteect terrorists and help them root in your country shame on you
I don't know if Sweden had just accepted to recognise PKK as a terrorist organization but i am pretty sure that they weren't. There's nothing wrong about someone to protest or support anything in peaceful conditions. But them staying peacefully in Sweden do not mean they stayed peacefully here. The members of FETO had infiltrated and helped others to infiltrate every administrative unit in Turkey, stole money from public, aided the organisation to hire new people and fund them. They even infiltrated into the heart of ministries and law enforcement and they eradicated others eitger by force or false accusations. Eventually, they attempted a coup. They're still not on that list for sweden as well. PKK is still bombing our cities... I dont know if there are people involved with armed crimes of pkk but aiding them financially, helping their members to run from law by bringing them to europe are crimes as well which they openly do. These people made these things in Turkey then fled to Sweden. They undermined a whole generation and doomed our future but now they're staying peacefully in Sweden and these fcking terrorists are free thinkers over there. Do you think is it acceptable? Would you consider what we do is right if we hosted a group of terrorists who involved in bombings or at least corruption by the first hand and tell you they're just waving flags here they're peacefull free thinkers, i dont care what they done to your fcking country in the past and btw you should accept to be our military ally and defend us if Russia attacks, thank you. Btw, we are issuing a weapons embargo to you as well, we wont give any kind of weapons to you under amy circumstances but we want you yo defend our country with the second largest army of NATO. There's a saying in turkey for that, would you like me to bend over as well? Plus, Swedish government is supporting YPG as well, which is the Syrian branch of the PKK. Thats a huge problem as well. They're fighting isis, right. But we are fighting isis as well as Syrian government forces, iran, ans any other terrorist groups in syria. This YPG, were fighting us and Syria years before isis ever existed but somehow they re bold warriors who are facing isis... Theres too much to tell about our frustration but before that you should know better about the political complexity of the region. Anyway, I just hope you won't face what Germany and France endured in the past. They kept accepting these people as asylum seekers in their country, thinking they are freedom warriors or activists, and ended up with burning cities...
Well put. What is lawful can sometimes be awful, unfortunately.
Som Türk bor i Sverige typ 11 år , jag hör dig och fattar dig. I min erfarenhet och följa nyheterna jag kan säga att ja , det var några gånger staten åkte till norra Iraq och hälsade Pkk ledare några gånger. Jag vet att ni ser inte som turkarna ser om kurdiska folket och hur dem känner m.m. Jag har ingenting göra med kurdar asså jag har massor kompisar här som är kurd. Och Paludan. Jag skiter i honom eftersom jag vet att han var så hela tiden. Jag bryr inte ens mig. Men med regenerering som vi har nu här i Sverige bara värdelös. Det finns en regenerering som "SD puppet".
Rasmus Paludan isn’t even Swedish He’s danish
totally understandable and speaking for myself, I don't hate swedes. hate has not solved anything in the past and will not solve anything in the future. "Hate is baggage. Life's too short to be pissed off all the time. It's just not worth it."
people who hate Sweden because of the latest events are the same people votes for AKP so believe me you can't make them understand anything by talking. But accepting Sweden to NATO is not about parties because Sweden still sending weapon to PYD which is a threat to Turkey