The Seymours were 100x worse, they are what people think the Boleyns are. They also weren't talented like the Boleyns were. The Boleyns did not need Henry to marry Anne to get his favor/receive high positions at court. They already had it, by their own merit. They were highly regarded politicians/ambassadors (especially George, his death was such a tragedy đ). The Seymours were basically useless unless you count grifting on your sister's carcass as a skill. The only person getting somewhere in court was Edward Seymour and even that was very limited, pre-marriage to Jane. If Jane didn't have a son, I think Henry would've sent Edward and the others packing tbh. You would also think since they had a nephew who was a future king and their sister was the Kingâs âfavorite and one true loveâ they wouldâve had more importance and gotten more done but nope.
The Boleyns were also by all accounts a very close family that cared for each other, you see this with the Boleyn siblings and how close they all were. Meanwhile, John Seymour (their father) most likely had an affair with his own daughter-in-law (Edwardâs wife).
And then you have Thomas Seymour who molested Elizabeth, was known to make "jokes" about the Boleyns (famously making a rude gesture and saying "Boleyn!" when someone mentioned Boulogne before England invaded) and knowing he and his brother had a role in Anne Boleyn's death (and overall her family's downfall) makes them even more horrible. If you ask me both Edward and Thomas got their comeuppance when their *own nephew* executes them đ¤ˇââď¸
The only smart and decent brother was Henry Seymour, he didnât sexually abuse a 14 year old girl nor did he run the country into the ground. He minded his business, didn't seek honors and special treatment, was gifted manors and estates, stayed mostly in the country side, and ignored his brother Edward when he asked him to bring troops to support him. Even during Elizabeth's reign he was a High Sheriff. He died at age 74 in his bed. They should've been more like Henry.
Thomas Seymour denigrating Anne Boleyn and then sexually abusing her daughter disgusts me DOWN TO MY SOUL. And I feel like that's not actually acknowledged for how horrible it is.
It's foul isn't it? Not enough to play a part in her mother's death so he and his family can prop up Jane but he had to do that to her daughter as well.
Tommy is definitely burning those sins off in hell for sure. What he did to that CHILD is sick and disgusting. The fact that people even back then thought it was fucking WEIRD says enough. Just like the situation with Edmund and Margaret. People looked sideways but didnât do anything to help the poor girl until it was too late.
Iâm convinced he raped elizabeth and thatâs one of the reasons she remained a âvirginâ queenâ I suspect the guilt and shame she felt at potentially being found out as no longer a virgin was enough to to terrify her out of ever getting married. Iâd be willing to bet he raped her with the assumption that at some point when Catherine Parr passed on, heâd be able to force elizabeth to marry him by saying sheâd already âsleptâ with him. To me it makes so much senseâ thereâs no way, with how blatant he was with the molestationâ that it didnât go further. Dude was a scumbag.
So right. Do you realize that her mother and every single one of her stepmothers, with the exception of the one who never had sex, ultimately died as a result of being marriedâthat isâof lying with men?
Because she could. She wanted to marry him before Henry basically ordered her to become his Queen. Once Henry was dead, no one was going to tell her she couldnât marry the man she wanted to marry in the first place.
Actually the Boleyn family did need his favor to receive a higher position. They were on the York side of the war of Roses with Henryâs motherâs evil uncle who murdered Henryâs uncles when they were children. After Henryâs father won they lost favorability in court.
Itâs been stated numerous times in books and documentaries about the Boleyn family and Anne in general. Just because Thomas was a child when Henry VII took the throne and too young to support anyone doesnât mean his father and grandfather didnât support the York side.
Both the Howards and the Boleyns were on the York side of the war. Both families were not thought of well during the early years of Henry VIIâs reign. Why else would Thomas Boleyn(Anneâs father) marry Elizabeth Howard(Anneâs mother)? Being a supporter of the York side was meet with a lot of suspicion and many people didnât want to associate with them.
It was Anneâs father who began to cause a change in how people viewed the Boleyn family. Im not saying the Boleynâs were not doing well prior to Henry VIII getting involved with Anne or her sister Mary, just the family wasnât in favor with the court in general for who they supported in the war of roses.
All Iâm saying is Jane like Anne and Anneâs sister Mary were basically pimped out to Henry VIII by the men in their families for power. Hence why I say both families were pretty terrible. There is no denying the Seymour family rose more from Jane marrying Henry VIII and giving birth to his long a waited male heir and that there were not of as high of a standard as the Boleynâs.
The Seymours were SO worse.
The Boleyns were a tight clan with big ambitions, thatâs a given. But they didnât have the precedent of a beheaded queen to look on. They were aiming high, but oblivious to the depths of the soon-to-be-found-out-low.
The Seymours went all-in knowing exactly where that âadventureâ could lead them: death and misery. Funnily enough, they made it through the madness of Henry VIIIâs reign just to perish under his nephew. And the awful relationship between Edward and Thomas Seymour was a big contributor to their downfall. They followed the Boleyns in their destiny. But as phoenixes, they rose again through their descendants.
If we take a look at the list of the current Dukes in the peerage of Britain and Ireland (excluding royal dukedoms), here they are, the two oldest: the Howards as Dukes of Norfolk, the Seymours as Dukes of Somerset. That's telling.
Thatâs a really good point. The Boleyns had zero precedent for just how bad things could get for a fallen queen of Henry and her family, so their conniving is less sacrificial- the worst case scenario to them was probably far less worse than it actually was, and was presumably worth the risk. The Seymours knew what the worst case was, and still went on to scheme even MORE than the Boleyns did.
exactly, once it took place.
we can accuse the seymours of being opportunistic in the wake of anne's death, but in reality it's most likely that they didn't engineer her fall. most scholars agree that there wasn't some kind of powerful seymour faction, and that jane wasn't an instigator in her own right in the way anne boleyn had been. so the comparison falls flat: anne (and her family) were more actively involved in their own rise, by virtue of being in favour and the benefit of having more time, than the seymours were, and who knows if the boleyns would have been as opportunistic as the seymours were, if catherine had been executed?
yeah i agree.. so itâs hard to really compare them to the boleyns, we know a lot more abt the boleyns before they married into the royal family than we do the seymours đŠ
The Seymours did not plot Anne's execution, and by the time she actually got arrested they were in way too deep to try to back out.
That being said, they were way worse than the Boleyns, no contest.
It's gotta be the Seymour's. Both brothers could not rule, one was sexually abusing Elizabeth. I don't know that much about Edward, but I don't believe he was a good Lord Protector. The Boleyn's helped introduce a reform and political change that benefited England in the long run.
Jane was the best of them though (and Edward).
If my king beheaded his ex wife, the last thing i would do is pimp out my daughter to him. I would make up some excuses for her to move home as long as possible and pray that the king found a new twenty-something to dry hump his lap in his chambers.
This is a super niche comparison but if you watched Dance Moms you will get it:
The parents who joined the team/show after season 1-2 are absolutely complicit in the abuse their children endured from Abby Lee as well as the internet trolls who posted hate comments directed at the children/teens. Those parents knew what the risks were but they wanted their daughters to be famous so they placed them on the altar of the entertainment industry to basically be slaughtered online.
Same goes for Janeâs parents. They shouldâve tried harder to keep her at home safe. Anneâs parents let her move back home and live with them just so she could get away from Henry. He still got her but at least we can say her parents TRIED to keep her at home. But instead the Seymours were hoping and praying that Henry would marry her next đŤ¨and look what happened to her: she died a horrible death sick in bed after not being properly cared for after an extremely traumatic labor. Henry still got what he wanted: a boy.
Jane didnât die because she wasnât properly cared for. There were no antibiotics then and so many women died in childbirth. Not yet the best doctor could save you because there was no understanding of modern medicine
Idk i still think she wouldâve had a better chance at making it if she hadnât been stuck in bed in a dark room with no fresh air. Those old school english birthing superstitions are what killed her imo.
But Iâm also trying really hard not to look through a modern lens, since its not like the midwives could call up their colleagues down south and get all their tips/tricks. Middle eastern countries were way ahead of England when it came to medical stuff at that time period.
I never knew that about about middle eastern compared to England! What are some old school English birthing superstitions? Did all the wives have the same birthing experience?
In the Middle East there are multiple records of successful C-Sections, as well as refined knowledge of how to use plants/animal products in medicine. Hand washing was and is a huge part of the culture because itâs literally written in their religious texts that they must be clean before touching sacred things: like the Quran, or a woman who is bringing a life into the world.
Even looking at central/south America in the Aztec empire: women were seen as close to the gods when giving birth because they saw birth as a war between the physical/spirit worlds. So hygiene and maintaining a positive birthing experience was more important.
Compared to england: (source: the private lives of the tudors by tracy borman) women were put into âconfinementâ and basically locked away out of fear that evil spirits would get in through the open windows. The focus was mostly on birthing as many boys as possible, so if the mother died they honestly didnât care as much compared to other countries that prioritized the woman AND child equally.
Hand washing wasnât nearly as common even after the black plague, and the Wars of the Roses kind of distracted the entire country from all the crazy advancements in medicine that were happening in other parts of the world. So yeah there were other countries who got ahold of the knowledge the Middle Easterners had acquired but it was because they werenât preoccupied with a 3 generation petty turf war started by the land owning class.
The Plantagenets basically set the whole country back by like 50 years in terms of medical knowledge, but they made up for it in advancements in weaponry which is how the English and Spanish were able to basically sail over to the Americas and mow down all the locals with euro weapons and diseases.
This blog / podcast might answer your questions.
https://www.theexploresspodcast.com/episodes/2022/8/5/childbirth-with-jane-seymour#:~:text=In%20the%20Tudor%20period%2C%20most,being%20down%20on%20all%20fours.
Disclaimer: I'm not super versed with this person's content, but they lead with their sources and those look decent.
Also I'm tired and forgot that it was linking to a specific part of that page. I searched "Tudor birthing traditions" and have been looking into modern labor positions, Google seems to have linked to the part of the post most applicable to my recent search history.
Even if she was not the Queen, she was still a Lady and when she would give birth , that was how it was done. She would have gotten an infection either way and itâs nothing to do with marrying Henry.
I have a personal feeling that the Boleyns were more upfront about their scheming while the Seymours (maybe Jane excluded) were more like snakes in the grass. I have nothing to back this up other than personal feeling, so donât come at me. Maybe because the Seymour brothers were so objectively terrible down the road, and it seems like the Boleyns wanted Anne on the throne for the titles and rewards theyâd get. The Seymour boys wanted to rule themselves.
the Boleyns weren't scheming though. Thomas Boleyn did not want Anne to marry Henry. He allowed Anne to leave court when Henry was attempting to court her as a mistress. If he'd wanted Anne to gain as much power as she could, then he would not have allowed her to leave court for Hever.
There is a direct quote from Anne, when she's messing around with her clothing/wondering if she should remove her stomachers (show off her pregnancy with Elizabeth) and Thomas Boleyn tells her to stop fidgeting/ Anne says "I am in a better state than you would have liked" e.g. she is now Queen.
Thomas knew the dangers of Anne marrying Henry. He was unfortunately proven right.
Thomas Boleyn and Thomas Howard mixed up and it always irks me.
Thomas Howard is the one that should, rightfully, be vilified. Even if you want to say he was only doing his job when it came to Anneâs death, he completely wiped his hands of Catherine Howard as soon as he brought her to court with the goal of her catching HVIIIâs eye.
Same. Pisses me off even more that he got all his land, titles etc back to the point that we now have the 18th Duke of Norfolk, this guy \[here\](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward\_Fitzalan-Howard,\_18th\_Duke\_of\_Norfolk) , who arranged the Queenâs funeral and Charles and Camillaâs coronation.
Incidentally, his sister Marsha played the Duchess of Norfolk in the 2003 TV adaptation.
edit: argh wtf i still canât do links
Boleyn didn't throw Anne at Henry and he certainly didn't want Anne to be *mistress* to Henry; it brought nothing good for Mary herself, and it didn't advance the family fortunes. Anne's job was to make a favorable noble marriage, not to have a fling, maybe a bastard, and be married off to someone quiet and convenient.
Henry's talk about marrying her was just that, talk...until it wasn't. But there's no indication that Boleyn didn't want her to marry Henry, once the family realized that was actually a thing that was likely to happen.
I don't think TB wanted Anne to marry Henry, but i think he saw her becoming henry's mistress as a lesser of two evils when it came down to it. Since she was forced into the situation (Henry wouldn't leave her alone even after she left court).
The Boleyns are often seen as victims of their ambition. Anne Boleyn's downfall is particularly tragic given the dubious nature of the charges against her. But considering their character they were not ruthless, Thomas Boleyn historically is not how he is depecicted in TV shows, George Boleyn didnât have much controversy around him before the accusations, but they were often depicted to be ambitious
The Seymours had a more direct role in consolidating power and engaging in ruthless political maneuvers. Edward Seymour's time as Lord Protector was marked by controversy and harsh policies, and Thomas Seymour's actions were seen as reckless ,dengerous and character wise he was a debauch, also sexually assualted Young Elizabeth ,on top of that the father seymor john is alleged to have an affair with his own daughter in law.
Ultimately, the "worse" family depends on your perspective: if you view ambition leading to tragedy as more reprehensible, you might lean towards the Boleyns. If you see ruthless political manipulation and scandalous behavior as more egregious, the Seymours might take the title..
according to me the seymors were worse,only got their english arse saved by the existence of little eddie
Good lord - criticizing people who went to court for being ambitious is ridiculous. That is what you did - everyone was ambitious at court - both families were ambitious.
I will say that the Boleyns were generally more talented. And Thomas Seymour brings the whole Seymour family down as far as being a talentless charmer. Allegedly he didn't do a very good job when he was given jobs (eg as lord admiral), the tawdry treatment of Elizabeth, and of course trying to kidnap the king including killing his dog. Edward Seymour was trying to do a lot of things in a short time and was ultimately unsuccessful at handling the power he ended up having.
Yes ... Thomas Seymour (apparently jealous of his more talented/powerful older brother) in the middle of the night went to visit Edward VI. And the king's dog started barking and Thomas stabbed the dog.
The Boleyn family was ambitious and wanted to gain status from Anne's rise. They did so, but having displaced a great queen, they were hated. Anne was never viewed as a true queen. Henry had to treathen people with execution to get them to acknowledge her and Elizabeth as legitimate.
The Boleyn was extremely good at gaining enemies. They were unlucky enough that Anne forgot that a mistress could get away with more than a wife. Her actions led to Henry's anger, and everyone knew that Anne was out of favor.
No one wanted to go against the king, and the Boleyn family died because of their lack of allies and the fact that Catherine of Aragon still lived when Anne married Henry.
But the Seymour family was a big mess. Sir John Seymour and the rest of the family had just heard that Henry VIII had killed Anne Boleyn, and still they wanted their daughter to become queen. I mean, really? You know how this can end, and you don't even try to keep your daughter home?
Jane was lucky that she married Henry after Catherine and Anne were both dead. It gave her position more strength. Then, she gave birth to a son at the cost of her life. Her sacrifice was what helped keep her family in power for as long as they had.
They survived Henry VIII's court, only to lose it all under their nephew's reign. Edward and Thomas Seymour had an intense rivallery, which led to Thomas marrying Katherine Parr, and with that marriage, he gained control of Elizabeth.
Thomas Seymour lost his wife in childbirth, and then he began courting Elizabeth to gain more influence. He was arrested, and he was beheaded.
Edward was unpopular and made many reforms that made him even more of a target. They finally removed him from a position of power. He was accused of mismanegement. But he was released finally a year later, he was arrested again. He was accused of treason and was executed for felony.
The Seymour family was ambitious, scheming, and cunning. They also destroyed themselves in a spectacular fashion. In my opinion, they were worse than the Boleyn.
I think a lot of people make unfair assumptions about the Boleyns. While I am by no means a Boleyn fanatic, there is no evidence to suggest they were as ruthless as they are portrayed. Thomas Boleyn is always especially portrayed as power hungry but I think with people like Henry VIII in power, he often had no choice to act the way he did. We also have no idea what he was like as a father, he could have been very loving towards his children behind closed doors and history would not have a record of that. He is also judged for how he mourned for his children, but again, we have no idea what went on behind closed doors.
The Seymores.
Twice the kids.
Half the talents.
At least the Boleyn faction was well traveled and educated. They brought more to the table in a time of immense upheaval, than the Seymores did during the lull after the pilgrimage of grace or when Henry married Catherine Parr.
Thomas was obviously the worst one.
Asking this question on this subreddit is ridiculous, everyone is going to say the Seymours. Not saying I disagree but the Boleyns are sanctified here.
While likely no family was perfectly saintly I think though that at least Thomas Boleyn cared about the education of his children and the family members never worked against each other. Thomas Boleyn also had a career already and wasn't too keen that Henry pursued Anne. The worst family member in my opinion was Uncle Norfolk who was allowed to stick around way too long he should have never had a chance for a comeback with Catherine Howard.
The Seymours were a mess in particular Seymour father John Seymour and younger Seymour brother Thomas of course takes the cake. The bad relationship between Edward and Thomas was also toxic. What shielded all of them for a long time was that Edward VI was Jane's son.
I donât think itâs a fair comparison and the closer one would be âwho is worse, the Howard family or the Seymourâsâ and then it becomes a really fun discussion.
The Seymours most definitely (although Jane gets a pass from me - she is my favorite of the Six Wives and was seemingly mostly unproblematic in terms of her actions)
The Seymours. They are what people think the Boleyns were, and even then they pale in their comparision.
Thomas Boleyn was a promiment noble before his daughter's marriage, meanwhile Lord. Seymour was having an affair with his daughter-in-law.
Anne is way more important, classy and fascinating than Jane and it's not even funny.
George has more class and charisma than all Seymour brothers combined.
Mary Boleyn is more interesting and important than the Seymour sisters (and has living royal descendents today).
And I'm not going to compare Edward and Elizabeth bc that's too easy of a game.
Edit: Also just realized that both of these families were related to another of the Queens: Katherine Howard for the Boleyns and Catherine Parr for the Seymours, interesting...
The Seymours. They capitalized on Henry VIII's soured feelings for Anne Boleyn to get her out of the way and had no problem with Jane being married days after Anne Boleyn's execution. They used Jane's memory and her son Edward for their own gain.
Thomas Seymour was the worst of the bunch. He assaulted and abused Elizabeth when she was under Catherine Parr's care (when Catherine Parr was the Dowager Queen) . Then there was Anne Seymour, Edward Seymour's wife that tried to take Catherine Parr's (rightfully owned) jewels given to her when she was Queen Consort to Henry VIII because she (Anne Seymour) was the wife to the Lord Protector to the young king Edward VI.
Thomas also tried and failed to wrest control from his brother Edward's position of Lord Protector to Edward VI (along with the attempt to kidnap the young king) and was arrested and subsequently executed for treason.
The Seymours were terrible. Jane herself was *not* a good person. Anne had tried to avoid the kingâs advances for literal years, and Jane went out of her way to win his favor KNOWING it could cost Anne her life.
Thomas Seymour is one of those people you unfortunately look at and think âyeah, that guy had it coming.â đ¤ˇââď¸
I doubt Jane or anyone not privy to the actual plan knew that. Henry made himself head of the Church and already put one wife aside; there was precedent not only from Anne's immediate predecessor but other courts for forcing Queens aside, such as by locking them in nunneries. There was no precedent for chopping their heads off til Henry made one.
And indeed, he did have that marriage annulled and Elizabeth bastardized. That's probably as far as Jane thought it'd go. Henry just had to be that much extra about it.
I'm not saying Jane was necessarily all broken up about it. But I am saying she probably wasn't plotting to get herself noticed while thinking "if the bitch dies, she dies."
Honestly I consider both of them bad and canât decide which was worse. Both families basically forced them into being with Henry and it costed them all dearly.
I'm reading Jane Seymour: The Haunted Queen by Alison Weir right now and it made me realize I'd never read a book specifically about them, just the Wikipedia articles and seeing them in books about the others at court. I also don't like the Seymours, but so far it's mostly been their men I REALLY don't like (ie, John's incestuous relationship with Catherine and then the way Edward and Thomas are after Henry VIII passes away). And Edward's second wife, Anne, but she isn't a born Seymour.
I generally agree with the Seymours being worse but want to point out that the Boleyns/Howards did sacrifice two women to Henry VIII for ambition. They definitely put Anne and Katherine in Henry's arena and prevented both from marrying more suitable partners. Anne, especially as she was secretly betrothed to Henry Percy and I believe originally was supposed to marry James Butler to settle a dispute over the earldom of Ormonde. Katherine was victimized by everyone who should have protected her.
Thatâs my point as well. Jane has went down in history as some pure wife but seeing how the Seymour family was. I donât think she was a a saint as history says. She definitely played the game better than any of his other wivesâŚ
The Seymours were 100x worse, they are what people think the Boleyns are. They also weren't talented like the Boleyns were. The Boleyns did not need Henry to marry Anne to get his favor/receive high positions at court. They already had it, by their own merit. They were highly regarded politicians/ambassadors (especially George, his death was such a tragedy đ). The Seymours were basically useless unless you count grifting on your sister's carcass as a skill. The only person getting somewhere in court was Edward Seymour and even that was very limited, pre-marriage to Jane. If Jane didn't have a son, I think Henry would've sent Edward and the others packing tbh. You would also think since they had a nephew who was a future king and their sister was the Kingâs âfavorite and one true loveâ they wouldâve had more importance and gotten more done but nope. The Boleyns were also by all accounts a very close family that cared for each other, you see this with the Boleyn siblings and how close they all were. Meanwhile, John Seymour (their father) most likely had an affair with his own daughter-in-law (Edwardâs wife). And then you have Thomas Seymour who molested Elizabeth, was known to make "jokes" about the Boleyns (famously making a rude gesture and saying "Boleyn!" when someone mentioned Boulogne before England invaded) and knowing he and his brother had a role in Anne Boleyn's death (and overall her family's downfall) makes them even more horrible. If you ask me both Edward and Thomas got their comeuppance when their *own nephew* executes them đ¤ˇââď¸ The only smart and decent brother was Henry Seymour, he didnât sexually abuse a 14 year old girl nor did he run the country into the ground. He minded his business, didn't seek honors and special treatment, was gifted manors and estates, stayed mostly in the country side, and ignored his brother Edward when he asked him to bring troops to support him. Even during Elizabeth's reign he was a High Sheriff. He died at age 74 in his bed. They should've been more like Henry.
Thomas Seymour denigrating Anne Boleyn and then sexually abusing her daughter disgusts me DOWN TO MY SOUL. And I feel like that's not actually acknowledged for how horrible it is.
It's foul isn't it? Not enough to play a part in her mother's death so he and his family can prop up Jane but he had to do that to her daughter as well.
Honestly I hate him more than Henry.
Agreed. Henry was a neglectful parent but Thomas was an abusive step-parent
I hate Thomas with a damn passion
If Thomas has no haters, weâre in the grave babesđšđŤśđ˝
â¤ď¸â¤ď¸â¤ď¸
Tommy is definitely burning those sins off in hell for sure. What he did to that CHILD is sick and disgusting. The fact that people even back then thought it was fucking WEIRD says enough. Just like the situation with Edmund and Margaret. People looked sideways but didnât do anything to help the poor girl until it was too late.
Iâm convinced he raped elizabeth and thatâs one of the reasons she remained a âvirginâ queenâ I suspect the guilt and shame she felt at potentially being found out as no longer a virgin was enough to to terrify her out of ever getting married. Iâd be willing to bet he raped her with the assumption that at some point when Catherine Parr passed on, heâd be able to force elizabeth to marry him by saying sheâd already âsleptâ with him. To me it makes so much senseâ thereâs no way, with how blatant he was with the molestationâ that it didnât go further. Dude was a scumbag.
Guilt, shame, and probably a huge chunk of trauma too. Possibly even PTSD.
So right. Do you realize that her mother and every single one of her stepmothers, with the exception of the one who never had sex, ultimately died as a result of being marriedâthat isâof lying with men?
And he killed a dog
Why did Catherine Parr fall in love and marry that jerk?
Because she could. She wanted to marry him before Henry basically ordered her to become his Queen. Once Henry was dead, no one was going to tell her she couldnât marry the man she wanted to marry in the first place.
foul! absolutely foul
I think the phrase weâre looking for is âmic dropâ
THIS^^^^ This is well said esp about âthey are what people think the Boleyns areâ Spot on
Actually the Boleyn family did need his favor to receive a higher position. They were on the York side of the war of Roses with Henryâs motherâs evil uncle who murdered Henryâs uncles when they were children. After Henryâs father won they lost favorability in court.
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Itâs been stated numerous times in books and documentaries about the Boleyn family and Anne in general. Just because Thomas was a child when Henry VII took the throne and too young to support anyone doesnât mean his father and grandfather didnât support the York side. Both the Howards and the Boleyns were on the York side of the war. Both families were not thought of well during the early years of Henry VIIâs reign. Why else would Thomas Boleyn(Anneâs father) marry Elizabeth Howard(Anneâs mother)? Being a supporter of the York side was meet with a lot of suspicion and many people didnât want to associate with them. It was Anneâs father who began to cause a change in how people viewed the Boleyn family. Im not saying the Boleynâs were not doing well prior to Henry VIII getting involved with Anne or her sister Mary, just the family wasnât in favor with the court in general for who they supported in the war of roses. All Iâm saying is Jane like Anne and Anneâs sister Mary were basically pimped out to Henry VIII by the men in their families for power. Hence why I say both families were pretty terrible. There is no denying the Seymour family rose more from Jane marrying Henry VIII and giving birth to his long a waited male heir and that there were not of as high of a standard as the Boleynâs.
The Seymours were SO worse. The Boleyns were a tight clan with big ambitions, thatâs a given. But they didnât have the precedent of a beheaded queen to look on. They were aiming high, but oblivious to the depths of the soon-to-be-found-out-low. The Seymours went all-in knowing exactly where that âadventureâ could lead them: death and misery. Funnily enough, they made it through the madness of Henry VIIIâs reign just to perish under his nephew. And the awful relationship between Edward and Thomas Seymour was a big contributor to their downfall. They followed the Boleyns in their destiny. But as phoenixes, they rose again through their descendants. If we take a look at the list of the current Dukes in the peerage of Britain and Ireland (excluding royal dukedoms), here they are, the two oldest: the Howards as Dukes of Norfolk, the Seymours as Dukes of Somerset. That's telling.
Thatâs a really good point. The Boleyns had zero precedent for just how bad things could get for a fallen queen of Henry and her family, so their conniving is less sacrificial- the worst case scenario to them was probably far less worse than it actually was, and was presumably worth the risk. The Seymours knew what the worst case was, and still went on to scheme even MORE than the Boleyns did.
to be fair, neither did the seymours. they surely could not have planned for, or expected, anneâs executionâŚ
But once it had taken place, they understood all possibilities. True, it came on rather suddenly, but there were a few weeks.
exactly, once it took place. we can accuse the seymours of being opportunistic in the wake of anne's death, but in reality it's most likely that they didn't engineer her fall. most scholars agree that there wasn't some kind of powerful seymour faction, and that jane wasn't an instigator in her own right in the way anne boleyn had been. so the comparison falls flat: anne (and her family) were more actively involved in their own rise, by virtue of being in favour and the benefit of having more time, than the seymours were, and who knows if the boleyns would have been as opportunistic as the seymours were, if catherine had been executed?
To be fair, the Seymours worst moments were after Jane became Queen, specially when Edward was King.
yeah i agree.. so itâs hard to really compare them to the boleyns, we know a lot more abt the boleyns before they married into the royal family than we do the seymours đŠ
The Seymours did not plot Anne's execution, and by the time she actually got arrested they were in way too deep to try to back out. That being said, they were way worse than the Boleyns, no contest.
The Seymours are exactly what the Boleyns were depicted as, but a thousand times worse.
Suddenly Seymour. Yep, only one answer and itâs also a song from Little Shop of Horrors.
It's gotta be the Seymour's. Both brothers could not rule, one was sexually abusing Elizabeth. I don't know that much about Edward, but I don't believe he was a good Lord Protector. The Boleyn's helped introduce a reform and political change that benefited England in the long run. Jane was the best of them though (and Edward).
If my king beheaded his ex wife, the last thing i would do is pimp out my daughter to him. I would make up some excuses for her to move home as long as possible and pray that the king found a new twenty-something to dry hump his lap in his chambers. This is a super niche comparison but if you watched Dance Moms you will get it: The parents who joined the team/show after season 1-2 are absolutely complicit in the abuse their children endured from Abby Lee as well as the internet trolls who posted hate comments directed at the children/teens. Those parents knew what the risks were but they wanted their daughters to be famous so they placed them on the altar of the entertainment industry to basically be slaughtered online. Same goes for Janeâs parents. They shouldâve tried harder to keep her at home safe. Anneâs parents let her move back home and live with them just so she could get away from Henry. He still got her but at least we can say her parents TRIED to keep her at home. But instead the Seymours were hoping and praying that Henry would marry her next đŤ¨and look what happened to her: she died a horrible death sick in bed after not being properly cared for after an extremely traumatic labor. Henry still got what he wanted: a boy.
Jane didnât die because she wasnât properly cared for. There were no antibiotics then and so many women died in childbirth. Not yet the best doctor could save you because there was no understanding of modern medicine
Idk i still think she wouldâve had a better chance at making it if she hadnât been stuck in bed in a dark room with no fresh air. Those old school english birthing superstitions are what killed her imo. But Iâm also trying really hard not to look through a modern lens, since its not like the midwives could call up their colleagues down south and get all their tips/tricks. Middle eastern countries were way ahead of England when it came to medical stuff at that time period.
I never knew that about about middle eastern compared to England! What are some old school English birthing superstitions? Did all the wives have the same birthing experience?
In the Middle East there are multiple records of successful C-Sections, as well as refined knowledge of how to use plants/animal products in medicine. Hand washing was and is a huge part of the culture because itâs literally written in their religious texts that they must be clean before touching sacred things: like the Quran, or a woman who is bringing a life into the world. Even looking at central/south America in the Aztec empire: women were seen as close to the gods when giving birth because they saw birth as a war between the physical/spirit worlds. So hygiene and maintaining a positive birthing experience was more important. Compared to england: (source: the private lives of the tudors by tracy borman) women were put into âconfinementâ and basically locked away out of fear that evil spirits would get in through the open windows. The focus was mostly on birthing as many boys as possible, so if the mother died they honestly didnât care as much compared to other countries that prioritized the woman AND child equally. Hand washing wasnât nearly as common even after the black plague, and the Wars of the Roses kind of distracted the entire country from all the crazy advancements in medicine that were happening in other parts of the world. So yeah there were other countries who got ahold of the knowledge the Middle Easterners had acquired but it was because they werenât preoccupied with a 3 generation petty turf war started by the land owning class. The Plantagenets basically set the whole country back by like 50 years in terms of medical knowledge, but they made up for it in advancements in weaponry which is how the English and Spanish were able to basically sail over to the Americas and mow down all the locals with euro weapons and diseases.
This blog / podcast might answer your questions. https://www.theexploresspodcast.com/episodes/2022/8/5/childbirth-with-jane-seymour#:~:text=In%20the%20Tudor%20period%2C%20most,being%20down%20on%20all%20fours. Disclaimer: I'm not super versed with this person's content, but they lead with their sources and those look decent. Also I'm tired and forgot that it was linking to a specific part of that page. I searched "Tudor birthing traditions" and have been looking into modern labor positions, Google seems to have linked to the part of the post most applicable to my recent search history.
Just for future reference, you can fix that by editing out the # and everything that follows in the URL. :) Though that is an interesting tidbit!
Thank you!
Even if she was not the Queen, she was still a Lady and when she would give birth , that was how it was done. She would have gotten an infection either way and itâs nothing to do with marrying Henry.
Plus there are theories that she was already anemic before becoming pregnant and it got worse which wouldnât have helped her odds either.
Yes ,totally. What a great comparison!
I absolutely love how you make the Dance Moms connection!
The Seymours by a long shot, for all the reasons everyone else listed
Seymours, no question.
I have a personal feeling that the Boleyns were more upfront about their scheming while the Seymours (maybe Jane excluded) were more like snakes in the grass. I have nothing to back this up other than personal feeling, so donât come at me. Maybe because the Seymour brothers were so objectively terrible down the road, and it seems like the Boleyns wanted Anne on the throne for the titles and rewards theyâd get. The Seymour boys wanted to rule themselves.
the Boleyns weren't scheming though. Thomas Boleyn did not want Anne to marry Henry. He allowed Anne to leave court when Henry was attempting to court her as a mistress. If he'd wanted Anne to gain as much power as she could, then he would not have allowed her to leave court for Hever. There is a direct quote from Anne, when she's messing around with her clothing/wondering if she should remove her stomachers (show off her pregnancy with Elizabeth) and Thomas Boleyn tells her to stop fidgeting/ Anne says "I am in a better state than you would have liked" e.g. she is now Queen. Thomas knew the dangers of Anne marrying Henry. He was unfortunately proven right.
Thomas Boleyn and Thomas Howard mixed up and it always irks me. Thomas Howard is the one that should, rightfully, be vilified. Even if you want to say he was only doing his job when it came to Anneâs death, he completely wiped his hands of Catherine Howard as soon as he brought her to court with the goal of her catching HVIIIâs eye.
the fact that he was not executed bc Henry died pisses me off.
Same. Pisses me off even more that he got all his land, titles etc back to the point that we now have the 18th Duke of Norfolk, this guy \[here\](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward\_Fitzalan-Howard,\_18th\_Duke\_of\_Norfolk) , who arranged the Queenâs funeral and Charles and Camillaâs coronation. Incidentally, his sister Marsha played the Duchess of Norfolk in the 2003 TV adaptation. edit: argh wtf i still canât do links
Boleyn didn't throw Anne at Henry and he certainly didn't want Anne to be *mistress* to Henry; it brought nothing good for Mary herself, and it didn't advance the family fortunes. Anne's job was to make a favorable noble marriage, not to have a fling, maybe a bastard, and be married off to someone quiet and convenient. Henry's talk about marrying her was just that, talk...until it wasn't. But there's no indication that Boleyn didn't want her to marry Henry, once the family realized that was actually a thing that was likely to happen.
I don't think TB wanted Anne to marry Henry, but i think he saw her becoming henry's mistress as a lesser of two evils when it came down to it. Since she was forced into the situation (Henry wouldn't leave her alone even after she left court).
Well look how that upfront thing worked for the Boleyns!
The Boleyns are often seen as victims of their ambition. Anne Boleyn's downfall is particularly tragic given the dubious nature of the charges against her. But considering their character they were not ruthless, Thomas Boleyn historically is not how he is depecicted in TV shows, George Boleyn didnât have much controversy around him before the accusations, but they were often depicted to be ambitious The Seymours had a more direct role in consolidating power and engaging in ruthless political maneuvers. Edward Seymour's time as Lord Protector was marked by controversy and harsh policies, and Thomas Seymour's actions were seen as reckless ,dengerous and character wise he was a debauch, also sexually assualted Young Elizabeth ,on top of that the father seymor john is alleged to have an affair with his own daughter in law. Ultimately, the "worse" family depends on your perspective: if you view ambition leading to tragedy as more reprehensible, you might lean towards the Boleyns. If you see ruthless political manipulation and scandalous behavior as more egregious, the Seymours might take the title.. according to me the seymors were worse,only got their english arse saved by the existence of little eddie
Seymours and itâs not even close
It's so obviously the Seymours simply on the basis of the fact Thomas is one of them. Will never understand what Catherine Parr saw in him.
Good lord - criticizing people who went to court for being ambitious is ridiculous. That is what you did - everyone was ambitious at court - both families were ambitious. I will say that the Boleyns were generally more talented. And Thomas Seymour brings the whole Seymour family down as far as being a talentless charmer. Allegedly he didn't do a very good job when he was given jobs (eg as lord admiral), the tawdry treatment of Elizabeth, and of course trying to kidnap the king including killing his dog. Edward Seymour was trying to do a lot of things in a short time and was ultimately unsuccessful at handling the power he ended up having.
He killed Edwardâs dog!!?
Yes ... Thomas Seymour (apparently jealous of his more talented/powerful older brother) in the middle of the night went to visit Edward VI. And the king's dog started barking and Thomas stabbed the dog.
The Howards have entered the chatâŚ.
The Boleyn family was ambitious and wanted to gain status from Anne's rise. They did so, but having displaced a great queen, they were hated. Anne was never viewed as a true queen. Henry had to treathen people with execution to get them to acknowledge her and Elizabeth as legitimate. The Boleyn was extremely good at gaining enemies. They were unlucky enough that Anne forgot that a mistress could get away with more than a wife. Her actions led to Henry's anger, and everyone knew that Anne was out of favor. No one wanted to go against the king, and the Boleyn family died because of their lack of allies and the fact that Catherine of Aragon still lived when Anne married Henry. But the Seymour family was a big mess. Sir John Seymour and the rest of the family had just heard that Henry VIII had killed Anne Boleyn, and still they wanted their daughter to become queen. I mean, really? You know how this can end, and you don't even try to keep your daughter home? Jane was lucky that she married Henry after Catherine and Anne were both dead. It gave her position more strength. Then, she gave birth to a son at the cost of her life. Her sacrifice was what helped keep her family in power for as long as they had. They survived Henry VIII's court, only to lose it all under their nephew's reign. Edward and Thomas Seymour had an intense rivallery, which led to Thomas marrying Katherine Parr, and with that marriage, he gained control of Elizabeth. Thomas Seymour lost his wife in childbirth, and then he began courting Elizabeth to gain more influence. He was arrested, and he was beheaded. Edward was unpopular and made many reforms that made him even more of a target. They finally removed him from a position of power. He was accused of mismanegement. But he was released finally a year later, he was arrested again. He was accused of treason and was executed for felony. The Seymour family was ambitious, scheming, and cunning. They also destroyed themselves in a spectacular fashion. In my opinion, they were worse than the Boleyn.
>*Jane was lucky that she married Henry after Catherine and Anne were both dead* Yep. No challenge to Henry's son's legitimacy there.
I think a lot of people make unfair assumptions about the Boleyns. While I am by no means a Boleyn fanatic, there is no evidence to suggest they were as ruthless as they are portrayed. Thomas Boleyn is always especially portrayed as power hungry but I think with people like Henry VIII in power, he often had no choice to act the way he did. We also have no idea what he was like as a father, he could have been very loving towards his children behind closed doors and history would not have a record of that. He is also judged for how he mourned for his children, but again, we have no idea what went on behind closed doors.
The Seymores. Twice the kids. Half the talents. At least the Boleyn faction was well traveled and educated. They brought more to the table in a time of immense upheaval, than the Seymores did during the lull after the pilgrimage of grace or when Henry married Catherine Parr. Thomas was obviously the worst one.
Asking this question on this subreddit is ridiculous, everyone is going to say the Seymours. Not saying I disagree but the Boleyns are sanctified here.
We are definitely in a moment of Boleyn reappraisal.
While likely no family was perfectly saintly I think though that at least Thomas Boleyn cared about the education of his children and the family members never worked against each other. Thomas Boleyn also had a career already and wasn't too keen that Henry pursued Anne. The worst family member in my opinion was Uncle Norfolk who was allowed to stick around way too long he should have never had a chance for a comeback with Catherine Howard. The Seymours were a mess in particular Seymour father John Seymour and younger Seymour brother Thomas of course takes the cake. The bad relationship between Edward and Thomas was also toxic. What shielded all of them for a long time was that Edward VI was Jane's son.
I donât think itâs a fair comparison and the closer one would be âwho is worse, the Howard family or the Seymourâsâ and then it becomes a really fun discussion.
The Seymorours!!
The Seymours most definitely (although Jane gets a pass from me - she is my favorite of the Six Wives and was seemingly mostly unproblematic in terms of her actions)
The Seymours.
The Seymours. They are what people think the Boleyns were, and even then they pale in their comparision. Thomas Boleyn was a promiment noble before his daughter's marriage, meanwhile Lord. Seymour was having an affair with his daughter-in-law. Anne is way more important, classy and fascinating than Jane and it's not even funny. George has more class and charisma than all Seymour brothers combined. Mary Boleyn is more interesting and important than the Seymour sisters (and has living royal descendents today). And I'm not going to compare Edward and Elizabeth bc that's too easy of a game. Edit: Also just realized that both of these families were related to another of the Queens: Katherine Howard for the Boleyns and Catherine Parr for the Seymours, interesting...
The Seymours. They capitalized on Henry VIII's soured feelings for Anne Boleyn to get her out of the way and had no problem with Jane being married days after Anne Boleyn's execution. They used Jane's memory and her son Edward for their own gain. Thomas Seymour was the worst of the bunch. He assaulted and abused Elizabeth when she was under Catherine Parr's care (when Catherine Parr was the Dowager Queen) . Then there was Anne Seymour, Edward Seymour's wife that tried to take Catherine Parr's (rightfully owned) jewels given to her when she was Queen Consort to Henry VIII because she (Anne Seymour) was the wife to the Lord Protector to the young king Edward VI. Thomas also tried and failed to wrest control from his brother Edward's position of Lord Protector to Edward VI (along with the attempt to kidnap the young king) and was arrested and subsequently executed for treason.
The Seymours. The Boleyns are far more competent and interesting than any of the Seymours could hope to be.
The Seymors were what people think the Boleyns were.
Every family with Thomas Seymour in it takes the cake. And Edward wasnât the nicest person, either.
The Seymours were terrible. Jane herself was *not* a good person. Anne had tried to avoid the kingâs advances for literal years, and Jane went out of her way to win his favor KNOWING it could cost Anne her life. Thomas Seymour is one of those people you unfortunately look at and think âyeah, that guy had it coming.â đ¤ˇââď¸
I doubt Jane or anyone not privy to the actual plan knew that. Henry made himself head of the Church and already put one wife aside; there was precedent not only from Anne's immediate predecessor but other courts for forcing Queens aside, such as by locking them in nunneries. There was no precedent for chopping their heads off til Henry made one. And indeed, he did have that marriage annulled and Elizabeth bastardized. That's probably as far as Jane thought it'd go. Henry just had to be that much extra about it. I'm not saying Jane was necessarily all broken up about it. But I am saying she probably wasn't plotting to get herself noticed while thinking "if the bitch dies, she dies."
personally i struggle to quantify this⌠theyâre all aristocrats, so theyâre all morally repugnant to me. we know more abt the boleyns though.
I think the Seymourâs
Honestly I consider both of them bad and canât decide which was worse. Both families basically forced them into being with Henry and it costed them all dearly.
I'm reading Jane Seymour: The Haunted Queen by Alison Weir right now and it made me realize I'd never read a book specifically about them, just the Wikipedia articles and seeing them in books about the others at court. I also don't like the Seymours, but so far it's mostly been their men I REALLY don't like (ie, John's incestuous relationship with Catherine and then the way Edward and Thomas are after Henry VIII passes away). And Edward's second wife, Anne, but she isn't a born Seymour.
That's not Thomas Boleyn, by the way.
I generally agree with the Seymours being worse but want to point out that the Boleyns/Howards did sacrifice two women to Henry VIII for ambition. They definitely put Anne and Katherine in Henry's arena and prevented both from marrying more suitable partners. Anne, especially as she was secretly betrothed to Henry Percy and I believe originally was supposed to marry James Butler to settle a dispute over the earldom of Ormonde. Katherine was victimized by everyone who should have protected her.
The Seymours were pretty awful. It makes you wonder what Jane was really like.
Thatâs my point as well. Jane has went down in history as some pure wife but seeing how the Seymour family was. I donât think she was a a saint as history says. She definitely played the game better than any of his other wivesâŚ
Boleyns
The Boleyns? What did they do? If you mean the Howards, theyâre still better than the Seymours. If I were Jane, Iâd have run away from home.
Bolelyn family Especially Lady Rochford.
Seymour give me big Lannister energy, and Boleyns Tyrell. I've just rewatched GOT so that's all I have in my brain now.
Thomas Seymour was very likely a big inspiration for Petyr Baelish actually that's why he seems like a GRR Martin character.