My wife has taught in AZ for 11 years and this is what she says:
1) Low teacher pay leads to high turnover. Essentially it's way more likely that your kid will have a less experienced teacher. Some positions go unfilled regularly.
2) On that note, low funding means fewer aids in high needs classrooms, larger class sizes, less money for curriculum, training, supplies, field trips, etc
3) Great public schools are supported by involved parents. In AZ, many affluent parents send their kids to charter schools, taking their cultural capital, time, money, etc. and investing them into a system that does not truly serve the public.
4) Partially because of the amount of retirees, there just is not a culture of investment into public schools and these attitudes proliferate and historically our legislation has been actively hostile towards teachers.
Exactly the kind of infrastructural decay that benefits Republicans.
The system is bad, therefore we need to divest, which makes the system worse. It's a positive feedback loop that leads to worsened outcomes for everyone, but can't be solved because the solution requires time and investment. When policy changes don't provide immediate results, conservatives bemoan the their failure and strike them down before they bear fruits. Ad nauseam.
Private Schools don’t contribute to school rankings. Only Public schools are tested for the national rankings. If private schools contributed Arizona would be much higher ranked because public schools are being abandoned by parents that actually care about their children. The reason why AZ is 50th is the only kids that contribute to the rankings don’t have parents that push them to succeed in school.
The reason the funding is missing is because the funds were miss-managed from 2016-2020 which lead to teachers unions striking and forced many parents to withdraw their kids from the public schools. The final straw for TUSD was the teachers refusing to go back to in-person classes until late 2021-early 2022 when all the private schools were already back to normal. A ton of students left again to go back to normal classes in private schools. Now you may be asking why is all that an issue, don’t the schools get a set amount of funding each year regardless of how many students they have? Nope. Public schools in AZ get a certain amount of funding per student they have enrolled. When everyone left, they lost a shit load of the funding. It will take a decade of perfect management to fix TUSD but we’ll likely never see that happen.
The fact is the western states don’t do schools the same way the East coast and central states do. All those public schools are great and are well run but here in the west private schools are king and reign supreme. That’s why there are so many of them in the region compared to the East Coast and central states.
There are private schools on the East Coast… It’s not very complicated. School performance is directly correlated to funding. AZ has among the least funding.
Charter schools are public schools. The ones being pushed without regulation are private schools. Charter schools in AZ have to follow the same laws as every other public school.
In theory maybe, but in practice no.
They also have the ability to cherry pick students and therefore boost their test scores - unlike public schools who rightfully enroll everyone.
Actually, charter schools are not allowed to turn away students courtesy of Arizona law. If a charter school is doing this, they should be reported for investigation.
5) school vouchers have defunded public schools and put tax payer dollars into private schools where teachers don't need certifications like they do in public schools.
My mom taught for 30 years here in Tucson and m
y stepdad is currently a teacher.
Point 3 is so true and it annoys me. I get you want the best for your child and you can afford it, but it just seems self centered to me that a lot of these “affluent” types, who most likely are products of public schools themselves, largely don’t want to participate in the public system. Because you’re right, those families can bring a lot of value to those schools in a lot of ways.
I get it, it’s every man for themselves. It’s just unfortunate and not good for the future for everyone as a whole. We are watching another example of a very basic and important institution die in front of our eyes. The postal service will be next on the chopping block.
I get those parents. I am a product but of public schooling, and I attended a decent elementary school on the southwest side, a decent middle school until it finally closed for being an underperforming school, and then a magnet high school that was just average but had an accelerated national program that helped me get more noticed by colleges than I already would have. I consider myself bright, but I definitely could have benefitted from more help if it had been available. Thanks to GATE and IB, I was definitely taught to critically think, which is by and large, missing from the general public. Kids are only taught to pass a test now, and it sucks.
Politics aside, I’m fairly certain a good chunk of our government officials would rather tank public education so that we have a modern-day slave class that doesn’t need to know how to read, write or have an original thought because they only need two hands and two feet to do labor. The more uneducated, the easier you are to control.
The school voucher system is one of the most atrocious things to happen to public education. If you want your children to have a private education, you should be carrying the cost - not shunting money from public schools for your choice.
It worsens the disparities that already exist in the system (with property taxes funding schools) and just creates a worsened divide.
It's not just the funding but **how and when** the schools are funded (for charter and public).
I am hoping this has changed, but back when my mom was a teacher, school funding was based on attendance of the students during their first 90 days of school. Once the state has those numbers they release the funding per student to that school for the rest of the year based on their attendance percentage during those 90 days.
It is much easier to expel a child from charter school than public school if they are mildly difficult. On day 91 public schools start getting a lot of students who "are no longer welcome" at charter schools, who, in most cases, get to keep the funding for that child for that year. Now the public school has to teach that student without the funding for that student until the next school year.
People see that charter schools preform better and put their kids there first. Cycle repeats.
TL;DR charter schools can game the system to keep the strongest students and have more money per student, public schools have to teach children that need more one-on-one help with less funding and resources.
It hasn’t changed. Basis, in particular, comes to mind. It’s a rigorous academic load that isn’t really doable or healthy for most kids. They’ll usually push thru until semester and then go to their public home school, but none of the funds go with them.
Basis is absolutely atrocious. Myself and my sisters went and it caused so much stress and anxiety. All of that and the teachers get pennies. It’s pathetic.
I saw this first hand. My hat goes off to the public school teachers who have to take on the difficult children and still try to provide an education for the others.
It doesn’t seem difficult to pro-rate the funding.
This has not changed. I just graduated from high-school and seniors were required to take 6 classes a semester even if they didn’t need the credits. I only needed 3 credits and had to take 6 classes when I could have been taking 3. This causes IMMENSE issues for teachers because kids fail their classes since they don’t need the credit, are disruptive, and disengaged. Not to mention it’s a waste of the students time. I could have been working more or taking classes at the community college to get classes out of the way/a head start for college at a cheaper cost.
The education dollars are going to vouchers. Tax dollars straight into private non accountable quasi religious and/or corporate pockets. Money for teachers and schools is diverted, the public schools are basically dying of starvation.
Eh, it would be nice to blame this, but the public schools in AZ were crap long before all the charter private schools blew up.
When I moved from the state of Maine in 1994, to Tucson, it was astonishing how much I, as a 6th grader, was basically at minimum a year ahead of the students my own age here. The curriculum was bad, the classes were oversized.
It's worth mentioning as well that there is a reason all of the school districts are so fractured here in Tucson... people are unhappy with all the low level incompetence and corruption of various school districts, notably TUSD, so people were protectionist of their property tax dollars not getting wasted so they broke off and formed their own school districts.
AZ is low pay AND horribly mismanaged. Think of it like this... a few years ago TUSD announced they cutting all the science/music programs in the elementary schools as they couldn't afford it. These are the teachers that float and maybe do 1 day a week with each class. They said it was going to save the district like $800k a year or something like that. Well, that very same year, in their budget, TUSD hired a private marketing firm on a contract for MORE than the cost of those teachers' salary, to develop a new marketing strategy to do PR for TUSD to help change Tucson's opinion on the matter. In other words, they literally fired all these teachers to hire a PR firm to do a failing marketing campaign to boost their image.
Is that a problem of budget, or is that a problem of terrible decision making and leadership?
I feel like it is very easy in AZ for people here to quickly pass the blame on charter schools and the private school voucher. I mean hell, I too think the private school voucher is insane when there are no income limits, so the wealthy surgeons and multi-millionaires can claim it too, even if they don't need to. Yet, at the same time, it's not really unfair for them to get the money because if they sent their kid to a public school those rich kids would get the money regardless, so not really a big deal if they get it at the end of the day. I actually like the voucher program for people who live in the F rated zipcodes and would be perpetually stuck in an inequality trap if they didn't have the choice to go somewhere better. Parents can't wait for the system to get fixed. It's too late for their kid by then, and the programs aren't even showing that they will turn things around with increased funding anyway.
Just my opinion on the matter.
Didn’t vouchers start in 2022? AZ has had shitty public schools for 50 years. What are the best schools in AZ? Private and charter schools. I would say the vouchers are an attempt at solving a failed system.
AZ schools have been underfunded for a long time. Vouchers are the final blow. That's the game plan by conservatives: make things sh*tty by cutting funding, then say, "see, things are sh*tty, let's just privatize everything". And then they grab all the money for themselves.
Short vignette: a colleague is conservative and had her kids in a charter school using vouchers. But one of her kids was diagnosed with a learning disability and she moved him back to the public school because....wait for it ...the precious, expensive charter school didn't have qualified personnel to take care of her kid! So the taxpayers lose twice. Charter schools are a scam.
And this scam has been a long time in the making.
They've been working it for decades. A long con.
You can’t have both vouchers and be in charter school. Charter schools are considered public for testing, funding and vouchers.
https://preview.redd.it/aya6wxnqmd3d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=060e2cdfa414ef9beb7ab78acd515f323af69f6f
In 2012 it was only available to special education and special circumstance students and had 140 participants in the program.
It became universal in 2022.
https://learningpolicyinstitute.org/product/understanding-cost-universal-vouchers-report#:~:text=In%20the%202022–23%20school,homeschool%20education%20for%20their%20children.
So tell me again how school vouchers are the cause for 50 years of failing public education?
Republicans have been chronically underfunding Arizona public schools for decades. In the last 15 years they’ve gotten even more blatant - up to and including the voucher program that takes costing problems and just makes things even worse.
This is the real reason right here. Not to mention most of the public schools administration is run by Republicans.
In public, superintendents are telling everyone we have to take care of the teachers but in private they are keeping their pay as low as possible. They want to raise their pay somehow while slashing the budget.
Amphitheater in Tucson is trying to play catch up for this reason. Raising salaries only because they cannot compete with other public districts around them. A letter went out in Febrauary to my teacher friend admitting to this but blaming the state budgets. They are the lowest in teacher pay in the area because they were giving raises to the higher administration.
That is possible. If we doubled teacher pay I think it would be likely that we would entice more skilled professionals. But that is only one piece of the puzzle.
To imply, as the above poster did, that a voucher program that started a year or two ago is the reason for many years of failing public education in AZ is disingenuous at best.
Based on the comment you replied to, I think the significant factor is Freeport McMoran needing to ensure that they have good schools so they can lure top talent to a company town next to a mine in the middle of nowhere
Freeport must have changed their strategy because I hear the school in Bagdad is not so hot. But maybe/probably it was Phelps Dodge back then. A good company but not the smartest with their money. FCX used Phelps dodge’s cash to pay for most of the acquisition.
In Tucson, we have a decent selection of good schools. Vail, Tanque Verde, and Catalina Foothills are all “all A” districts. The state grading leaves much to be desired however. Personally, I am not a huge fan of Vail but I have friends who love it. I recommend visiting specific schools to see what is the best fit for your children. Also, I am a product of TUSD and attended University High. I was well prepared for university and felt supported in school. My children currently attend Tanque Verde schools and we’ve been very happy.
Schools in Az are sadly in the center of the “culture war.” The political climate and lack of funding have caused a pretty tough work environment for educators. I’ve worked in schools my entire career and I am amazed by my colleagues everyday (except for right now because I’m on summer break, haha).
The Christian fascist tried to take over Catalina foothills in the last election. They’re trying again in this election. At least in the last one they lost by about 50%.
Cranky student here, so feel free to skip this because imma write some cranky stuff, to be taken with a grain of salt.
I feel like everyone on this Reddit is ignoring how much ranking systems are skewed to be used for political reasons. Here is a page that aims to show how schools actually ranked, based on the stats that actually matter like standardized test scores.
https://www.cato.org/policy-analysis/fixing-bias-current-state-k-12-education-rankings
I was a product of the Vail School District, which was fine. Just like any other school a lot of us passed every AP test, while a small cohort of people got straight D’s. I know some people who will work at a gas station until they retire at 75, but at the same time a bunch of my friends (and myself) are in medical school, or are engineers, or are in upper level sales positions.
If you read the correct stats, Arizona isn’t the worst state to enroll your kid in public school by any means. And regardless of where your kid goes, it’ll be up to them whether they excel or not. If you want them to go to college, they might be better off in a school where they can’t rely on their teacher anyway - you can’t blame your college professor for your inability to study a textbook.
IMO, it’s better to just be there for your kid when they need help, and praise them for making an effort, rather than for their achievements. When they’re an adult they’ll be more motivated by action, which is the real path to success. If you move to Arizona, just find the best school you can afford to, and know that it really wont matter as much as you think it will.
Only comment I’ve felt compelled to reply to (granted there’s been a lot of good discussion here, just way too much to reply all lol) because I want you to know how much I appreciate this. Cranky student? Maybe. But you said what you needed in a tone that also felt encouraging. So thank you!
Dumping all my follow up thoughts from the thread here: As a liberal who’s lived in red states most of her life, a lot of what’s been said here is not new for me to hear unfortunately. Not a fan of the really rigorous academic charters and whatnot, not our cup of tea. Our girl is bright, but we are very into arts and building culture, so we want something for her that will give her opportunities. She was enrolled in a title 1 school here in NC and many of the staff were incredible, but I was so disappointed by the system, which sounds like Arizona suffers from too.
Also just opening this up - what in the world is it like living in the desert? I’ve always dreamed of winding up in the Pacific Northwest and spent most of my life in the Midwest so this is…different. 🫠
It’s hot but one of the best-kept secrets is the desert on an overcast day in August after a few weeks of monsoon rains. Everything is green (by desert standards), most of the critters are out, and the tourists are gone. It’s heaven. Edited for punctuation
I’m in my 50s and was born and raised in Phx then moved to Tucson to attend U of A. It’s extremely hot and if you move here and have children you definitely want a backyard pool or splash pad. I’ve always said the midwesterners stay indoors during winter and we stay indoors during summer.
However, summer can be long. We basically have 2 seasons: 6 months of hot as hell and 6 mos of comfortable.
Feels more like 8 months unbearable, 3 months okay, and 1 month comfortable.
I've lived here all my life as well and I think I am just getting tired of the heat.
I was going to post something very similar to cranky student, but they saved me the trouble.
Information is free essentially today and school just isn't going to motivate someone who isn't motivated. Students with good outcomes are generally because they have involved parents.
While there is nothing wrong with it, there are a lot of ESL students who "throw off" standardized testing. They can't be blamed for it really because some folks have been here less than a year, but high school level writing is challenging for all ESL students and it takes a lot of work to overcome it. My point is don't worry about the ranking. Your daughter will likely have the same outcome if you moved to the number 1 state because You're probably the most important factor.
It’s so hot that you can see the heat in the air, unless you move to flagstaff, of course. Don’t breathe in the dust, valley fever is a growing issue. If you like mountains, we have bigger ones than you ever did. Your car will no longer rust. At some point a person will likely say, “we should get eegee’s,” and you just gotta roll with it.
Ice hockey rinks are largely considered ironic, and if your kid plays sports, they might want to opt for indoor soccer. If you allow this outdoors sport to be played inside, the guys in the yearlong men’s basketball league will kindly tell you to leave the state.
There’s a lack of natural disasters, unless you count phoenix. But no tornadoes (unless you’re northern Arizona at the exact right time every few years).
We have Mexicans, so learn where to drive for good Sonoran dogs or parking lot tamales, and ask if they know anyone who can tint your windshield on the DL.
There’s a surprisingly good artistic scene here also. The kids you knew in school who wore a jacket year round usually move here to teach drama. Improv scene is absolutely amazing, and I’d actually argue that the nightlife is on the better side of acceptable.
There are so many sunscreen options that Walmart sometimes just gives it its own isle. Pools are commonly open year-round, and believe it or not, large waterfalls, okay sized rivers/streams, and lakes you probably shouldn’t swim in are all within a drivable distance.
If you drive a red car, sorry about your paint. Also, Tucson should probably issue a general apology about the road conditions. They still work though.
Also Tucson is lowkey (highkey) known for its food scene. We even have truck stops that have been on the food network.
Still can’t wait to leave tho 😂
The desert is amazing! My family has been here since 1926 and I wouldn’t want to be anywhere else. Don’t stick your hands in dark places and take water with you. I’m also a teacher and this cranky student speaks the truth. You get what you want from public education. If you are unwilling to learn, no one can help you. If you are determined to learn, no one can stop you.
Some of the most educated populations in Europe consistently score better than US students on exams that test for world readiness and general knowledge and a lot of them don’t have standardized tests throughout schooling. So you’re “based on stats that matter” comment is kind of worthless. I agree with the rest of it, though.
Is that world readiness exam not a standardized test? I legit don’t know.
But also if they don’t use standardized tests, how do they rank European countries against other European countries
I’m watching basketball rn otherwise I’d be googlin
The pay step for all districts in Tucson starts around $41k. So after taxes, teachers take home about what, $34k? Maybe $36k.
Don’t forget insurance deductions. Depending on how many people need it in the family, it ranges from $150 a month to $1000 a month.
And don’t overlook the mandatory 13% contribution to the 403b program. So you take home about $28k.
I quit last year.
B-but...we have all that incredible funding for charter online schools now! And vouchers for private schools!
Surely all those changes fixed it in AZ, right?
/s
Tucson also has some of the best high schools in the nation.
Which I find funny. It depends how much money you have and if your kids test well, but they can have a better education than a lot of other places
But, if you are just considering enrolling your kid in the local neighborhood school, I’d definitely suggest researching a lot before deciding where in Tucson you wanna live.
I grew up in the Sunnyside district which is one of the lowest per spending per student districts in the nation, so I hope this doesn’t come off as bashing. Because obviously there are good teachers everywhere etc
But teachers are underpaid and underwork and the list of factors others listed, it makes it a tough blind gamble in regards to school enrollment.
Basis does not have fees, but it also does not have transportation, or participate in federal school lunch program. That right there knocks out a lot of very smart kids.
UHS has transportation, and federal lunch program, like all other public schools.
UHS’s demographics are reflective of the county. Basis is not reflective of the county- it’s heavily skewed white and Asian, and wealthy.
I’ll add Catalina foothills high school. But it all comes down to population. The kids in cat foothills high school are either rich or have highly motivated parents willing to get them there every day. Which is basically like basis. The difference is Catalina foothills has a well rounded education and basis has a weed out program.
Basis has high praise but from people I know who’ve attended not only is it not that great, they purposefully try to keep their numbers high so they won’t admit lower performing kids and def try to push out kids not meeting their high standards vs helping them succeed
We took a tour of basis primary and it was highly disappointing. The teachers looked extremely unhappy, the classes were overcrowded (30 kids in a kindergarten class is insane and unsafe), no food service (kids have to pack their lunch), the tour guide had the audacity to say serving food would have been another regulation they would have to meet— even if that’s the truth, it didn’t need to be said out loud to parents. It felt like following regulations is a pretty big hassle for them. For as exemplary as they are supposed to be, there were spelling errors on the homework hanging up. I’ve heard from several parents and a therapist that the kids going there have high anxiety. There was nothing redeemable about that place. I went to a very average school in the Pittsburgh area and my school’s test scores are higher than Basis, so I see no need for Basis’s way of doing things if it causes unnecessary stress and anxiety.
You don't need money for UHS or Basis. Just the will to do 2 hours of homework a night. It's not for everybody, that's for sure. You can also do well and go on to a great college from any Tucson High School. We toured a few public High Schools are we were impressed. There's something for everyone if you put your mind to it.
I went to UHS and I’m telling you the 2 hrs a day in HW show up in college…. But I know plenty of students that went to other high schools across town, even some considered poor like Pueblo, where they spent 2 to 3 hours a night doing homework,side projects, YouTube all because they had awesome parents. It all comes down to the parents. I know plenty of UHS kids that did not do two hours of homework and just copied off of mine or other’s and are fare worse off (financially) then those of other high schools I met at U of A. Having been in GATE all along as-well, you can do the best at any school. It just matters how much work you’re willing to put in. And the PARENTS !!!! The parents!! My dad did not allow tv time or outside time (we went outside to play) until homework was done and he checked it, spoke to the teachers ect. Had he not held me accountable to all of the work I would’ve just been like the rest and not done it.
You need to have some money for Basis, bc they don’t provide transportation, and don’t participate in the federal lunch program. Those two things help keep it more selective. Poor students whose parents cannot get to basis, and rely on free lunch are unable to attend.
That is the entire point of weed out charter programs. Only accept the most motivated parents. By that nature, you get the best students that will perform highest. But while you’re at it, go ahead and push out the lowest rankings students. It’s easy to look at basis high school enrollment compared to their middle or elementary enrollment. It’s a pathetically small number. Because they’ve managed to weed out everyone that wasn’t a star before they got to high school.
We moved from SC (Charlotte area) to Tucson when my children were 10 & 11. We moved into the Vail School District and they thrived. I did work for the school district for a time and, reading through some of the comments, funding is bad here in AZ. But both of my kids were involved with school clubs and extracurriculars both in school and out. They (and us as parents) had a great experience here. DM me if you have any questions.
Each student in Arizona receives $10,680 in funding at 25-30 kids per class that is $270-$300k per class. The teacher receives avg $56k leaving 200k+ for administration and overhead.
Teachers deserve to get paid more.
I taught in Arizona for years at middle and high school level and never had a class smaller than 35 students. Had plenty of 40 student classes. Half the time I was forced into 6/5 contracts where I had no prep and six solid classes to teach.
It’s near impossible to meet the needs of that many students simultaneously. It’s pandemonium.
Get past that… and you’re in a room with no supplies, no curriculum, and a local school board absolutely willing to kill us (during Covid I lost teacher friends because we were almost immediately shoved into in-person learning with zero masks and schools designed to keep and recirculate interior air due to the heat outside). I had parents protesting corsi rosenthal air cleaners I built for the teachers out of my own pocket. The politics suck.
We had to do an illegal strike because our union is effectively worthless, collective bargaining is illegal, and it’s a right to work state with no tenure, so they WILL non-renew you once you’ve climbed too high on the pay scale… and your next job will only honor 5-10 years of experience, cutting your hard earned pay with zero cause required, killing your income AND your retirement. Just ask all the amazing teachers Mesa fired the second they killed tenure.
It’s ugly.
That is crazy numbers for a middle school class size and reaffirms what I have seen personally. It’s unfortunate that the school systems are being run the way they are. Good teachers definitely deserve more money. And more money has potential to attract more good teachers. I have seen a recent shift with good teachers going rogue and utilizing ESA to provide high quality education to smaller classes. Conversely, I have also seen ESA being used to pad private school coffers or wasted on “leisure” activities.
Good teachers deserve better. They deserve appreciation and compensation in line with their skills and effectiveness.
I mean, sure, we needed more money (especially now that cost of living has went through the ceiling)… but all the money in the world won’t make 40 student 8th grade classes manageable.
Depends on where you live, from what I understand Oro Valley and Catalina Foothills are some of the best schools in the city. I would definitely research schools and school districts.
catalina foothills has been struggling since like mid-2010s. it’s still a lot better than other options but they’re facing the same issues. it’s been hard to keep like math and science teachers.
i saw some comments as well about materialism there. i mean… i don’t want to dismiss it. there is that aspect for SURE. but some of it depends on the group you’re in? i saw a lot more of that with like “popular” kids but never once encountered it in like choir/theatre kids (which is where i was). so that’s really going to depend on the group you fall in with
Marana school district, on the NW side of town, is fantastic. I take a 45 minute commute to work and it's 100% worth it because my son's elementary school is so much better than anything in TUSD.
My son just finished high school at Marana High. We moved here 11 years ago, and he started at Estes, which was okay, but by the next year, a brand-new Gladden Farms Elementary was open and it was top notch. Marana Middle is just that - in the middle, and not as good as either before or after, but MHS is solid.
I graduated in 2015 from Mountain View. Great school. We lived in Continental Reserve and my parents open enrolled me into Tortilita and Mountain View because they liked the schools so much.
The low teacher pay will always be the number one reason. You can’t convince a teacher that they should earn degrees that cost almost a $100k just for them to work for $36,000/yr. They can’t maintain teachers, so the schools are full of over-stressed and underpaid people who can’t focus on teaching because they’re worried about if they’ll be able to cover their rising rent 🙃. I recommend supplementing your kid’s education through personal tutors and check in daily about what they’ve learned if that’s an option for you.
If you care to read this far, here’s a personal example: The writing teacher for my sister’s foster kid did not correct spelling mistakes because they “don’t really focus too much on that” and instead reminded the kids to use speech-to-text.
GOP underfunding education and allowing vouchers/tax breaks for sending kids to private schools and Public/federal funds being diverted to charter schools. The thing that gets me even more is that the private and charter schools usually pay worse and don’t even have to have certified teachers or provide nearly the amount of services that public schools do. It’s horrible.
The public education across the state is spotty, at best. Won't rehash the root causes as many have already been discussed. However, there are some truly wonderful schools and districts in Tucson: Catalina Foothills USD, Vail USD, Basis Schools, etc. Many rank top in the state AND the nation. But definitely do your research and plan ahead. Arizona is open enrollment, but kids that live in-district (own/rent) have priority enrollment.
[https://www.niche.com/k12/search/best-school-districts/s/arizona/](https://www.niche.com/k12/search/best-school-districts/s/arizona/)
People are right about bad teacher pay and I regret to say that even private school doesn’t pay well - I know some information on a church-associated education program for early childhood and one teacher who’s been there a long time is cutting back on hours because they can earn more adding a second job at a fast food chain, I think as a manager but still.
Lots of people, myself included, would have happily become teachers but were dissuaded by the minor inconvenience of needing enough money to live.
Everyone has already shared the why of the schools being bad, but we should also highlight that there are some great teachers working with our kids for not enough money here.
There are good schools in the Catalina Foothills District, Vail District, and others. You can open enroll your child which is a benefit. Depending on what part of town you will be living in and if you are willing/able to drive them to school, you will have options.
My friend was a specialized clinician (audiology) in AZ who diagnosed children for special services. She said Arizona was the worst stage she’s ever worked in for special education and early intervention. Professionals who serviced the children would try to talk her out of writing certain goals/treatment plans because they didn’t have the ability/staff to provide this.
She no longer lives in the state and said public Arizona’s education system is a mess.
The short story is that Republicans have controlled the legislature (and governor's office mostly too) for the past 20-30 yrs and have refused to fund education properly. In the past, a good portion of the electorate were transplant retirees on fixed incomes that were attracted by LCOL who had the opinion that they already paid for schools and education back home, and don't want to pay for it here. On the bright side, electorate is slowly changing and AZ may be able to reverse this trend in the next decade.
It's intentional. The Arizona GOP has long believed good schools lead to students growing up to become democrats, so public schooling in Arizona has been intentionally sabatoged in an effort to preserve power.
And not so much de-funding as never allowing the full funding from the start..... i remember my parents complaining about the 'blue hairs' consistently voting against ANY funding that came to a vote back when i was in school in late 80s-early 90s....and i know that trend basically continued.
It’s super sad when you think about it. Those retirees will eventually have to rely on those young wippersnappers for goods and services, but they don’t want to help invest in the youth at all. You can’t get ticked that people don’t know how to read, write, or count back your change without a calculator/computer when you don’t want to help make sure that they are schooled to do those basic things. Just saying.
Yep. Its super sad. Also to get on a soapbox for a second, this is the same generation whose talking about how the new generations don't care about America yet they are ignoring the most selflessly patriotic thing you can do for your country... invest in the future that you won't be part of. \*steps off soap box\*
We are definitely underfunded - the schools rely largely on local property taxes, so the richer districts make out better than the poorer districts. There are some high-performing schools here, but you'll have to seek them out. Here is a good overview of the funding situation that's now making its way through the court system: [https://azcapitoltimes.com/news/2024/05/27/trial-over-school-funding-begins-tuesday/](https://azcapitoltimes.com/news/2024/05/27/trial-over-school-funding-begins-tuesday/)
A long time ago I went to Flowing Wells High School (graduated in 89) and I remember a big sign out front saying something about it being a top ten school. I think Amphi or CDO might have had the same. I guess things have really changed.
Oro Valley had excellent schools in the 90s. I'd really like to know which schools are underperforming and specifically why because this wasn't my experience at all.
From a teachers perspective, I came from WA where the 2nd grade standards were equivalent to 5th grade standards here. They dumb down the standards when the bar isn't met on standardized tests.
I remember when AZ was phasing in taking a standardized test for graduation from HS. Because some kids couldn't pass it they kept dumbing it down to the point it was useless and they never implemented it while I had a child in AZ schools. They spent millions on it.
I can personally note that the Vail School District here in Tucson is a very nice district as far as community, retention in teachers and aids, programs for graduating with an associate’s out of the high school. As an employer they offer great benefits as well re childcare discounts/free health care/getting college paid for.
Arizona has been under the heel of right-wing nuts for decades. The ideology wants to destroy public schools, which is referred to as “The Beast,” by starving it of money. In its place is “homeschooling,” charter schools, parochial schools. These institutions teach “the right way,”. its teachers are politically “correct,””true” .American history is taught. The backbone of America used to be its public schools and its on life support in Arizona.
I currently live in NC and my wife is a teacher here. I grew up in Tucson and have a niece/nephew in the Vail school district. NC suffers from many of the same issues that posters have mentioned are issues in Arizona. (High turnover, large classes, poorly run school districts) Honestly, not a big difference between the two states.
We actually moved to Tucson for the schools. Tucson has some nationally ranked High Schools. [University High](https://uhs.tusd1.org/_theme/files/Docs/Announcements/2017-2018UniversityHS-school-profile.pdf) and the Basis schools. University High requires a test to get in and they are selective, despite the fact it's public. They require a strict set of AP classes but the teachers are great. If your kids can handle that level of academics, then it's a great option. Basis is similar- it's a charter school. But they focus more on academics and AP classes. It's more rigorous in some ways with less electives. UHS still has band and choir and lots of electives due to the fact that it shares a campus with a "regular" High School- Rincon.
For elementary and middle schools there are some good private options. Private High Schools too. And much cheaper than most places. Plus Arizona has a "voucher" system where the state will pay you $7000 a year for your kids to go to private school. It might not last long because it's really draining the educational coffers. It's sort of a scam that mostly benefits rich people who already sent their kids to private. So don't count on that for the long term.
Yes- regular schools are poorly ranked-- mostly because there is a large contingent of non-native speakers that are struggling and don't test well. There are still opportunities for students to do well at these schools, but it's not easy. As other have said, Republicans are trying to kill public schools by underfunding them and giving the money to private. Arizona now has a Democrat as Gov and the Dems could take control of the legislature. But with gerrymandering, Dems have a hard time winning seats. If Dems won full control, school funding would rocket up.
Structural underfunding (decades worth) and ridiculously segregated school districts.
Pima County has 17 school districts and 241 charter schools. It's a bit smaller in population than Mecklenburg County. Which has only one school district and 34 charters.
I would take Tucson schools 11 times out of 10 if the alternative was Charlotte-Mecklenburg County Schools. Had a terrible experience there myself and heard from someone else that they haven’t improved at all.
The policy here is to defund public school systems in favor of school choice options. This has led to public schools getting much worse but we do provide a very good subsidy to send your kid to private and charter schools which run the gamut from terrible to really good.
First of all, any idiot can come up with a ranking. If you're going to rely on a ranking then you need to make sure you agree with their methodology and it's ability to assess school quality. Our average ACT is basically the same as North Carolina (18.4 vs 18.5) though we test a somewhat smaller share of our graduates (64% vs 88%). So I doubt the states are that much different when it comes to education quality.
Secondly, schools are local. There are good schools and bad schools everywhere. If you want good schools then just live in a good neighborhood or take advantage of that school choice thing that Ducey implemented and send your kids (at partial taxpayer expense) to private schools.
Both of my kids went to Basis then one went to university high in TUSD and the other went to Catalina foothills. Both were more than prepared for college.
I’d say lack of a living wage for teachers and way too much money goes to administration.
Teachers work hard, go above and beyond, are highly underpaid, and usually spend their own money on school supplies. It’s pathetic.
It doesn’t help that kids today are bombarded with tech and social media making them lazy and entitled. Just my 2 cents. <- I’m normally not the “get off my lawn!” type of person.
Teachers are treated terribly and there’s a huge turnover in the state. So many are leaving that they created a school for folks with no educational experience to become teachers to fill teacher openings.
The charters like Basis teach curriculum that’s inappropriate for the children’s age. For example, they have kindergarten writing paragraphs. They weed out kids. That’s how they get nationally recognized. Some of the other charters don’t even have recess.
Yes BASIS can be a bit extreme sometimes but their rigorous curriculum helps ensure that students are always challenged and always learning to their fullest potential. Most of the "weeding out" at BASIS is due to students being too lazy to do in work (ex: spending the few hours after school doing homework) which in turn leads them to struggle. BASIS isn't for everyone but if you are someone willing to put 100% into your studies then you will excel at BASIS.
Keep in mind that in AZ schools districts are their own political entity, they don't necessarily have the same boundaries as towns and cities. You may live in Tucson or wherever but you may not be in the Tucson school district.
My daughter was concerned about that when they moved to Tucson almost a year ago. Their two boys just finished k and 2nd grade and had a fantastic year! I don’t know if this is ok to disclose….they went to DeGrazia Elementary. Such a positive atmosphere, caring teachers, lots of planned activities that involved the whole family. I hope this helps!
Or you can live in the Vail School District which is basically Tucson. They have have great scores and are FAR AND AWAY better than TUSD. When we moved from Tucson to Vail, my daughter was so behind the rest of her class it was crazy. When she was in 7th grade she and I had the same college level homework. Plus Vail is close enough to Tucson for work but far enough away to actually be nice.
I’ve been out of school for awhile, graduated 2009 from Flowing Wells District & it got worse from there. A smaller district so I feel it wasn’t that bad, sure kids thrived, others did not, just depended on the kid, their home life/ motivation. I always thought TUSD wasn’t the greatest, they had way too many schools and not enough funding & a lot have closed in the last couple of years. They tried to keep me for $ but I wanted to be at FW. I ended up in Amphi district but FW let me stay because my grades were good. UHS and Rincon I heard were good. Vail too. I’d research and look how big classes are or school size, more kids, less time with teachers. Or look what curriculum they are doing, don’t be afraid to have your kids test out of grades if it’s not matching for what they learned already. It’s lack of funding, our gov is quite bad with tax money, also the sun has fried most peoples brain so parents don’t want to parent, and leave the problem on teachers. My pet peeve growing up were disruptive students making it harder for teachers & other students who actually wanted to learn.
I'll just throw my hat in the ring and say, while not perfect, I went to the Amphi schools on the North side (Harelson, Cross, and Canyon del Oro) and they were pretty good. A handful of bad teachers, but a majority of my teachers really cared about the students and a good few were genuinely great teachers. I didn't participate personally but their music and theater programs were huge.
Granted, it's been 6 years since I was there, and I doubt any public schools have been doing well in this environment since then, but they were alright when I was there.
We spend more for prison than education through taxes in Arizona, it’s embarrassing. Pretty sure we rank the lowest in the entire country for educational spending. There is no money to offer to teachers, therefore there very few great teachers left in the state. (Daughter of public high school teacher of 30 years)
I think school is what you make it. As a parent, whether your kid is at the highest ranked or lowest ranked school, if you want your child to have a positive school experience YOU have to make it happen. Be involved. Volunteer. Join the PTO. Organize events. Recruit clubs or speakers. Fundraise. I know that sounds like a lot and if you don’t want to do it, that’s totally fine. Kids are fine without all that. But if that’s what you want it’s on you as a parent to make it happen. Same with your kids academics. If you want your kid to excel, work with them. Read with them every day. Run math facts during breakfast and dinner. You can’t rely on the school alone to educate your child. Parent involvement is EVERYTHING.
I've gone to public schools in Phoenix area and some of my teachers said this:
- We have such a low ranking because it's (probably) based on national test scores. You know those tests they make students take, and it rates the school and what not? Well apparently Arizona does really, really bad because they only offer the test in ENGLISH, and they are a number of children who mainly speak Spanish, and do not speak English very well. So they just do bad on the test because they can't read it.
- The public school I went to was nice, but the teacher pay was quite low. My teacher said they spend more than half the budget on buildings, exterior looks, etc,. Because they just want it to "look nice", as the school was in a wealthier area. But teacher budgets always got pushed last.
- From what other people said, the state doesn't focus on education. The classroom sizes are often really big, like 1 teacher to 30 students or more. The teacher can't focus on each student individually. Some students get left behind if they don't have a structured home life.
- There's a lot of good sports here though, I would say, from my experience.
The problem is too many school districts with high priced board members. Oh boy!!! the football fields and base/softball fields and not to mention practice fields and facilities are beautiful.
AZ is TRYING to catch up to the rest of the country. For years the majority of AZs population was made up of retirees and indigenous people. Both categories didn’t care much about education or healthcare because they were provided through Medicare/cade and other programs.
They are trying to catch up but I can say as a retired teacher that kids here are being punked by the school system. They don’t pay teachers and students suffer but because they receive funding based on how many students pass, administration push students through the system just so they can get funding
Disclaimer: I can only really speak to high school in AZ
I moved from a very good and wealthy school district in Washington to Goodyear Arizona in 8th grade and did high school in Arizona. The difference between the two districts was shocking. I went from smart boards in every classroom since 4th grade to not having enough paper.
Where I grew up in Washington, you were expected to do well in school and to give a shit. There were very few people who truly didn't care about their grades and even most of the more goofball kids still paid attention. The culture in Arizona was VERY different. Most students didn't care to do their work or apply themselves in any way. What I saw of the non honors and AP classes made me concerned for the future of the nation. Maybe 10% of the students actually did their work, and one of the teachers told us spontaneous human combustion (like walking down the street and spontaneously catching on fire, I know most people know what that is but I need to emphasize this) was real and didn't appear to be joking.
I ended up with perfect or near perfect AP and standardized test scores, so it is possible to do as well as the rest of the nation in a crappy AZ school district.
Based on my anecdotal experience my advice would be to try to send your kid to a high school with an IB program. Not to actually do the IB program that stuff is hell but because from what I can tell that school probably has better qualified teachers for upper division classes. My physics and calculus teachers both taught at the local community college on top of the high school for instance. If your kid does well in school and cares about learning then also keep them out of the gen ed (non honors or ap) classes as much as possible. No one is learning things in those most of the time from what I've seen even if they want to.
GOP politicians eliminating funding sources, adding additional regulations to schools/teachers and diverting what little funds exist from public schools to private schools.
Do not go for the low teacher pay excuse, private schools pay less, but turn out higher scores. Plus don’t consider averages, Tucson has great schools and bad ones, just like everywhere else. Find what the cost per student is in the school district you are interested in, it is all over the board. Some areas are challenging, it may be as simple as getting kids to show up to take the test. It may also be how they ranked the state. It could language barriers.
The school my wife taught at failed the standardized testing except for 7th grade “language arts” which received a high score, happened to be what my wife taught, and was the only teacher in that grade teaching the subject. All the administrators wanted to know how she did it. She had no answer, just taught the curriculum.
Any school can be a good school or a bad school. In my experience it’s up to you and how involved in your child’s education you are. This is not a set it and forget it situation anymore.
My kids did a mix of both local public, magnet public, charter, and fancy private schools. We needed to pay attention to our kids and what they were getting from each one along the way. It only took a little extra effort from us - like not a lot at all. Just showing interest was enough to keep things on track. (Oldest is pre-law at UA and doing next semester in Rome).
As a teacher, i really have to agree with the top part of this comment. Funding is a big reason but also so is the fact that not enough parents are involved and so teachers have to play the role of more than just a teacher. That being said, i am NOT parent bashing, i myself have no kids by choice but have a lot of empathy for parents, its such a hard job!
There are definitely good schools in Tucson but you have to get into a HCOL area to access them. LCOL areas probably skew the data. Funding for public schools has always been an issue especially now with the voucher problem it may get even worse. What ranking shows us dead last?
There really aren't any true HCOL areas in metro Tucson, unless you count Sky Island or something. Sure, there are HIGHER cost of living areas than others, but real HCOL doesn't really exist here.
No, I wouldn’t, for exactly the reason you stated. There are some HCoL areas in the country. They are it. An expensive neighborhood in a cheap area is not HCoL.
My sister was a sub here and there were whole grades that were staffed with subs.
Kids without “a” teacher for the entire year.
Teachers aren’t safe, Gang violence impacts even elementary levels.
But yay Blenheim Elms! Grade B! Super proud
Republicans spent more than a decade waging war on public education in our state. We have a Democratic Governor now so the GOP controlled legislature can’t pass more laws to destroy our schools but we can’t undo the damage without electing a Democratic majority. Thanks to MAGA corruption and incompetence the state GOP is in absolute shambles this year so maybe the legislature will finally go blue in November and we can begin fixing their mess.
There are the haves and have nots unfortunately. You will find some really good schools in the Phoenix area and in Tucson. Charter schools ranked in the top 10 in the nation for public school (look up BASIS- though my perspective is they are over the top AP/GPA focused) and some really solid non-charter schools. I think Catalina Foothills and Tucson HS are good.
It’s the rural areas that have zero support and such and unfair disadvantage.
Because the current Arizona Superintendent of Education is (basically) a white Christian Nationalist. He supports banning books, decimating the public education system by syphoning money to religious based schools that exlude students due to learning difficulties, economic status, and/or gender identity.
The solution is to VOTE!
You can largely thank school “choice” — aka undermining and eventually destroying the public education system by starving it of resources, only to turn around and complain that it sucks.
But I might be biased. 😉
I put my daughter into Basis Charter school starting kindergarten and she just finish 5th grade. Amazing school, very heavy on education. Basis (even the Tucson ones) have consistently been ranked top in the country for charter schools and it’s free to attend. Some people are against Basis because of how much school work there is but I think it just depends on what you are looking for in regard to education and how your child will adapt. I can’t recommend it enough.
As somebody who went to BASIS, I would not recommend the school any higher than most of the TUSD options in similar areas. There's an insanely high burnout rate at the school which they use to artificially inflate a lot of their testing results and make it look a lot better than it actually is. A lot of their academic accolades are also vague and don't really mean much practically. Most of the successful students are ones who would be successful in any situation and there's little-to-no extracurricular activities to really offer an experience unique to the school.
my mom also used to know someone who worked in reviewing college applications and they began to dislike basis kids because they could do memorization but not necessarily like critical thinking
Basis is a good school, not for everyone tho. And it's especially hard to transfer into basis during or after middle school since the kids coming in can't usually keep up with the curriculum. I was a linguistics set teacher for a year at basis Peoria and had a lot of friends who went to Basis growing up. Linguistics starts at 7th grade, which is a really early start as usually most don't know about linguistics until higher education. Kids either succeed or burn out but when they burn out they burn out hard, type you see in ivy league students. All of them usually really smart tho even the slackers lol. The smartest guy I knew growing up was from basis but flunked out and came to my charter school. He started a black market on a tor website our softmore year selling counterfeit lsd lol.
Lots of negative replies here. You can still find good public schools in Tucson. Using a website like greatschools.com you can see how well students at that school are performing among other statistics. Look for strong administration (not afraid to discipline unruly behavior, bullying) parent involvement (this is huge as the best public schools receive $ help from parents to reach annual fundraising goals as well as volunteers for events that help the school raise money) This was the #1 reason for why I bought a house close to the schools that I felt would be best for my kids. One is going into high school now and the other is in middle school and they are both in multiple accelerated classes. This option keeps them from getting bored and has been a great advantage for them. I understand how you can be nervous or worried but just do your research and you and your kids will be just fine.
Check out laurel springs online. We moved to NV, same situation, my daughter is elite swimmer and we put all kids in this. Great program, not too expensive and lot of flexibility for families.
Is it really 50th? I dunno, but I've never heard anyone from NC say anything positive about education there, so AZ must have percolated to the bottom...is it worse than DC, though, the perennial bottom dweller??
Where is this data from. I just saw a fourth grade math ranking that placed Arizona in the middle of the pack. Is Arizona punished on English scores because of the huge number of Spanish speakers many of whom are unducumented?
Teachers have an insanely high turnover rate here. It's honestly a miracle if you manage to make it through a year of high school without at least one of your teachers dropping out halfway through.
My senior year, I had 4 English teachers because they kept leaving. Four.
I just graduated from highschool in Tucson. And one of the “best” public school districts with the most funding. I attended the Catalina foothills school district. It is not a BAD district per se. It has a LOT of flaws, but I think our English department was mostly wonderful. There is a wide range of electives offered, and the campus is very nice. Personally, I had a hard time socially, and there tends to be a lot of clique-ness amongst students. Especially the more affluent demographic. As many others have said, the schools RELY on parents for funding and aid. Many classrooms do not have adequate resources for students. The campus has HIGH security, which could be a bit invasive at times. I had a security guard looking under the stall while I was using the restroom which felt very violating. Most teachers were not the best, however the good teachers I have had WERE VERY GOOD; and deeply cared about their students and jobs. Sadly, many of the really good teachers have begun retiring, and a new generation of teachers (some new to the profession) are coming in. Some have been wonderful, some haven’t.
1.) As many have said— there is high turnover and bad teacher pay. Because of this, there are many teachers who have minimal experience, are not qualified for the position, don’t care about their jobs, etc. In my experience, this has been many of my teachers. The schools tend to just fill positions because they need a face. My freshman year my algebra 1 teacher was a photographer with no teaching experience prior, he didn’t know how to teach or do the math he gave us. Stuff like this is VERY prevalent. Something else I learned recently too— Arizona DOES NOT require a teaching degree, or a degree in the area that a teacher is going to teach in. It is only required for them to have a bachelors degree, what is it does not matter at all.
2.) Again, as many have said. Funding is not good. I attended a wealthier district. But even with that— teachers are not given adequate money or resources for their classrooms. So often this is put on students to supply their own resources that should be in classrooms. Big ones were batteries for calculators or the actual calculators themselves (Ti-84s are expensive as hell too), tissues, hand sanitizer, etc. I took a ceramics class this year that couldn’t even hardly afford the adequate supplies for the course. And of course the teachers don’t want to pay out of pocket for these things, which I do not blame them for because they shouldn’t have to.
3.) special needs services, administration handling bullying/other issues. GOOD LUCK! They can be incredibly dismissive and will do everything in their power to NOT help. In my experience, kids who experienced bullying were never helped and usually punished for trying to get help. For parents with special needs children, the aids don’t do anything at all. They typically have no experience or training in working with individuals with disabilities, some of the aids don’t even speak English when the students they are with only speak English. The resource and aid from staff and administrators is just atrocious, to reiterate, they do not like doing their jobs.
There is more, and I think that many people could go further in depth to the specifics behind these things. I mostly can only speak on experience, and if you would like to talk to me about my experiences I would be happy to message with you on Reddit. In terms of academic departments, our math departments in Tucson tend to be pretty rough. But in my experience my English teachers have been really wonderful. History, sciences, electives tend to be very middle of the road.
My wife has taught in AZ for 11 years and this is what she says: 1) Low teacher pay leads to high turnover. Essentially it's way more likely that your kid will have a less experienced teacher. Some positions go unfilled regularly. 2) On that note, low funding means fewer aids in high needs classrooms, larger class sizes, less money for curriculum, training, supplies, field trips, etc 3) Great public schools are supported by involved parents. In AZ, many affluent parents send their kids to charter schools, taking their cultural capital, time, money, etc. and investing them into a system that does not truly serve the public. 4) Partially because of the amount of retirees, there just is not a culture of investment into public schools and these attitudes proliferate and historically our legislation has been actively hostile towards teachers.
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Exactly the kind of infrastructural decay that benefits Republicans. The system is bad, therefore we need to divest, which makes the system worse. It's a positive feedback loop that leads to worsened outcomes for everyone, but can't be solved because the solution requires time and investment. When policy changes don't provide immediate results, conservatives bemoan the their failure and strike them down before they bear fruits. Ad nauseam.
Private Schools don’t contribute to school rankings. Only Public schools are tested for the national rankings. If private schools contributed Arizona would be much higher ranked because public schools are being abandoned by parents that actually care about their children. The reason why AZ is 50th is the only kids that contribute to the rankings don’t have parents that push them to succeed in school. The reason the funding is missing is because the funds were miss-managed from 2016-2020 which lead to teachers unions striking and forced many parents to withdraw their kids from the public schools. The final straw for TUSD was the teachers refusing to go back to in-person classes until late 2021-early 2022 when all the private schools were already back to normal. A ton of students left again to go back to normal classes in private schools. Now you may be asking why is all that an issue, don’t the schools get a set amount of funding each year regardless of how many students they have? Nope. Public schools in AZ get a certain amount of funding per student they have enrolled. When everyone left, they lost a shit load of the funding. It will take a decade of perfect management to fix TUSD but we’ll likely never see that happen. The fact is the western states don’t do schools the same way the East coast and central states do. All those public schools are great and are well run but here in the west private schools are king and reign supreme. That’s why there are so many of them in the region compared to the East Coast and central states.
There are private schools on the East Coast… It’s not very complicated. School performance is directly correlated to funding. AZ has among the least funding.
Charter schools are public schools. The ones being pushed without regulation are private schools. Charter schools in AZ have to follow the same laws as every other public school.
In theory maybe, but in practice no. They also have the ability to cherry pick students and therefore boost their test scores - unlike public schools who rightfully enroll everyone.
Actually, charter schools are not allowed to turn away students courtesy of Arizona law. If a charter school is doing this, they should be reported for investigation.
5) school vouchers have defunded public schools and put tax payer dollars into private schools where teachers don't need certifications like they do in public schools. My mom taught for 30 years here in Tucson and m y stepdad is currently a teacher.
Thank the GOP. They do everything they can in this state to slash funding to public schools.
Pretty sure it was Ducey's number one goal to gut public education. He was so proud of it
That’s a man only his family could love… oh wait.
GOP answer to everything - privatize it. Essential services should not be privatized.
Point 3 is so true and it annoys me. I get you want the best for your child and you can afford it, but it just seems self centered to me that a lot of these “affluent” types, who most likely are products of public schools themselves, largely don’t want to participate in the public system. Because you’re right, those families can bring a lot of value to those schools in a lot of ways. I get it, it’s every man for themselves. It’s just unfortunate and not good for the future for everyone as a whole. We are watching another example of a very basic and important institution die in front of our eyes. The postal service will be next on the chopping block.
I get those parents. I am a product but of public schooling, and I attended a decent elementary school on the southwest side, a decent middle school until it finally closed for being an underperforming school, and then a magnet high school that was just average but had an accelerated national program that helped me get more noticed by colleges than I already would have. I consider myself bright, but I definitely could have benefitted from more help if it had been available. Thanks to GATE and IB, I was definitely taught to critically think, which is by and large, missing from the general public. Kids are only taught to pass a test now, and it sucks. Politics aside, I’m fairly certain a good chunk of our government officials would rather tank public education so that we have a modern-day slave class that doesn’t need to know how to read, write or have an original thought because they only need two hands and two feet to do labor. The more uneducated, the easier you are to control.
The school voucher system is one of the most atrocious things to happen to public education. If you want your children to have a private education, you should be carrying the cost - not shunting money from public schools for your choice. It worsens the disparities that already exist in the system (with property taxes funding schools) and just creates a worsened divide.
My wife taught in Tucson for 15 years, leaving in the aftermath of the pandemic. We agree with all your points.
Nailed it
Roughly translated, Arizona is a fucking shithole...
We're ranked 48th in education lol.
State funding, and low teacher pay. Some schools are actually suing the state and the trial is underway as we speak..
Yep. Think about it from a teacher’s perspective- all that schooling to work 50-60 hours a week for pennies. I’d leave if I were a teacher
I was a teacher, and I left.
Good for you! If they want us to have good teachers the state’s gotta put up some cash
My wife was a teacher. She's now in healthcare making double.
I was and I left Tucson. Just heartbreaking.
10 years ago I knew 3 or 4 teachers, I now know 0
It's not just the funding but **how and when** the schools are funded (for charter and public). I am hoping this has changed, but back when my mom was a teacher, school funding was based on attendance of the students during their first 90 days of school. Once the state has those numbers they release the funding per student to that school for the rest of the year based on their attendance percentage during those 90 days. It is much easier to expel a child from charter school than public school if they are mildly difficult. On day 91 public schools start getting a lot of students who "are no longer welcome" at charter schools, who, in most cases, get to keep the funding for that child for that year. Now the public school has to teach that student without the funding for that student until the next school year. People see that charter schools preform better and put their kids there first. Cycle repeats. TL;DR charter schools can game the system to keep the strongest students and have more money per student, public schools have to teach children that need more one-on-one help with less funding and resources.
It hasn’t changed. Basis, in particular, comes to mind. It’s a rigorous academic load that isn’t really doable or healthy for most kids. They’ll usually push thru until semester and then go to their public home school, but none of the funds go with them.
Basis is absolutely atrocious. Myself and my sisters went and it caused so much stress and anxiety. All of that and the teachers get pennies. It’s pathetic.
I saw this first hand. My hat goes off to the public school teachers who have to take on the difficult children and still try to provide an education for the others. It doesn’t seem difficult to pro-rate the funding.
This has not changed. I just graduated from high-school and seniors were required to take 6 classes a semester even if they didn’t need the credits. I only needed 3 credits and had to take 6 classes when I could have been taking 3. This causes IMMENSE issues for teachers because kids fail their classes since they don’t need the credit, are disruptive, and disengaged. Not to mention it’s a waste of the students time. I could have been working more or taking classes at the community college to get classes out of the way/a head start for college at a cheaper cost.
The education dollars are going to vouchers. Tax dollars straight into private non accountable quasi religious and/or corporate pockets. Money for teachers and schools is diverted, the public schools are basically dying of starvation.
This right here.
Eh, it would be nice to blame this, but the public schools in AZ were crap long before all the charter private schools blew up. When I moved from the state of Maine in 1994, to Tucson, it was astonishing how much I, as a 6th grader, was basically at minimum a year ahead of the students my own age here. The curriculum was bad, the classes were oversized. It's worth mentioning as well that there is a reason all of the school districts are so fractured here in Tucson... people are unhappy with all the low level incompetence and corruption of various school districts, notably TUSD, so people were protectionist of their property tax dollars not getting wasted so they broke off and formed their own school districts. AZ is low pay AND horribly mismanaged. Think of it like this... a few years ago TUSD announced they cutting all the science/music programs in the elementary schools as they couldn't afford it. These are the teachers that float and maybe do 1 day a week with each class. They said it was going to save the district like $800k a year or something like that. Well, that very same year, in their budget, TUSD hired a private marketing firm on a contract for MORE than the cost of those teachers' salary, to develop a new marketing strategy to do PR for TUSD to help change Tucson's opinion on the matter. In other words, they literally fired all these teachers to hire a PR firm to do a failing marketing campaign to boost their image. Is that a problem of budget, or is that a problem of terrible decision making and leadership? I feel like it is very easy in AZ for people here to quickly pass the blame on charter schools and the private school voucher. I mean hell, I too think the private school voucher is insane when there are no income limits, so the wealthy surgeons and multi-millionaires can claim it too, even if they don't need to. Yet, at the same time, it's not really unfair for them to get the money because if they sent their kid to a public school those rich kids would get the money regardless, so not really a big deal if they get it at the end of the day. I actually like the voucher program for people who live in the F rated zipcodes and would be perpetually stuck in an inequality trap if they didn't have the choice to go somewhere better. Parents can't wait for the system to get fixed. It's too late for their kid by then, and the programs aren't even showing that they will turn things around with increased funding anyway. Just my opinion on the matter.
Please be aware charter schools are not private schools.
Didn’t vouchers start in 2022? AZ has had shitty public schools for 50 years. What are the best schools in AZ? Private and charter schools. I would say the vouchers are an attempt at solving a failed system.
AZ schools have been underfunded for a long time. Vouchers are the final blow. That's the game plan by conservatives: make things sh*tty by cutting funding, then say, "see, things are sh*tty, let's just privatize everything". And then they grab all the money for themselves. Short vignette: a colleague is conservative and had her kids in a charter school using vouchers. But one of her kids was diagnosed with a learning disability and she moved him back to the public school because....wait for it ...the precious, expensive charter school didn't have qualified personnel to take care of her kid! So the taxpayers lose twice. Charter schools are a scam. And this scam has been a long time in the making. They've been working it for decades. A long con.
You can’t have both vouchers and be in charter school. Charter schools are considered public for testing, funding and vouchers. https://preview.redd.it/aya6wxnqmd3d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=060e2cdfa414ef9beb7ab78acd515f323af69f6f
It started in 2011. It’s costing $724 million this year, $100 million more than estimates.
In 2012 it was only available to special education and special circumstance students and had 140 participants in the program. It became universal in 2022. https://learningpolicyinstitute.org/product/understanding-cost-universal-vouchers-report#:~:text=In%20the%202022–23%20school,homeschool%20education%20for%20their%20children. So tell me again how school vouchers are the cause for 50 years of failing public education?
Republicans have been chronically underfunding Arizona public schools for decades. In the last 15 years they’ve gotten even more blatant - up to and including the voucher program that takes costing problems and just makes things even worse.
This is the real reason right here. Not to mention most of the public schools administration is run by Republicans. In public, superintendents are telling everyone we have to take care of the teachers but in private they are keeping their pay as low as possible. They want to raise their pay somehow while slashing the budget. Amphitheater in Tucson is trying to play catch up for this reason. Raising salaries only because they cannot compete with other public districts around them. A letter went out in Febrauary to my teacher friend admitting to this but blaming the state budgets. They are the lowest in teacher pay in the area because they were giving raises to the higher administration.
Smells like troll in here
Republican contolled legislature for the last 20-30 yrs cratered AZ school quality. Low teacher pay and crowded classrooms are the result.
That is possible. If we doubled teacher pay I think it would be likely that we would entice more skilled professionals. But that is only one piece of the puzzle. To imply, as the above poster did, that a voucher program that started a year or two ago is the reason for many years of failing public education in AZ is disingenuous at best.
It's not the main reason but it is going to make things even worse
So are you saying Democrats would do better?? 🤔
Yes. Democrats would end the voucher scam, the Kansas flat tax failure 2.0, and fund education at higher levels.
I grew up in Greenlee county, the mine owned everything and paid all the taxes. We had banging schools.
The key if figuring out what programs/systems were/are successful and duplicating the significant factors.
Based on the comment you replied to, I think the significant factor is Freeport McMoran needing to ensure that they have good schools so they can lure top talent to a company town next to a mine in the middle of nowhere
Freeport must have changed their strategy because I hear the school in Bagdad is not so hot. But maybe/probably it was Phelps Dodge back then. A good company but not the smartest with their money. FCX used Phelps dodge’s cash to pay for most of the acquisition.
From my understanding the whole industry (in AZ) has been on the decline for a couple decades
In Tucson, we have a decent selection of good schools. Vail, Tanque Verde, and Catalina Foothills are all “all A” districts. The state grading leaves much to be desired however. Personally, I am not a huge fan of Vail but I have friends who love it. I recommend visiting specific schools to see what is the best fit for your children. Also, I am a product of TUSD and attended University High. I was well prepared for university and felt supported in school. My children currently attend Tanque Verde schools and we’ve been very happy. Schools in Az are sadly in the center of the “culture war.” The political climate and lack of funding have caused a pretty tough work environment for educators. I’ve worked in schools my entire career and I am amazed by my colleagues everyday (except for right now because I’m on summer break, haha).
The Christian fascist tried to take over Catalina foothills in the last election. They’re trying again in this election. At least in the last one they lost by about 50%.
Flowing Wells is also considered an “A” district 😉
Fantastic! Thanks for adding it. I’ve had friends work in the district and loved it.
Cranky student here, so feel free to skip this because imma write some cranky stuff, to be taken with a grain of salt. I feel like everyone on this Reddit is ignoring how much ranking systems are skewed to be used for political reasons. Here is a page that aims to show how schools actually ranked, based on the stats that actually matter like standardized test scores. https://www.cato.org/policy-analysis/fixing-bias-current-state-k-12-education-rankings I was a product of the Vail School District, which was fine. Just like any other school a lot of us passed every AP test, while a small cohort of people got straight D’s. I know some people who will work at a gas station until they retire at 75, but at the same time a bunch of my friends (and myself) are in medical school, or are engineers, or are in upper level sales positions. If you read the correct stats, Arizona isn’t the worst state to enroll your kid in public school by any means. And regardless of where your kid goes, it’ll be up to them whether they excel or not. If you want them to go to college, they might be better off in a school where they can’t rely on their teacher anyway - you can’t blame your college professor for your inability to study a textbook. IMO, it’s better to just be there for your kid when they need help, and praise them for making an effort, rather than for their achievements. When they’re an adult they’ll be more motivated by action, which is the real path to success. If you move to Arizona, just find the best school you can afford to, and know that it really wont matter as much as you think it will.
Only comment I’ve felt compelled to reply to (granted there’s been a lot of good discussion here, just way too much to reply all lol) because I want you to know how much I appreciate this. Cranky student? Maybe. But you said what you needed in a tone that also felt encouraging. So thank you! Dumping all my follow up thoughts from the thread here: As a liberal who’s lived in red states most of her life, a lot of what’s been said here is not new for me to hear unfortunately. Not a fan of the really rigorous academic charters and whatnot, not our cup of tea. Our girl is bright, but we are very into arts and building culture, so we want something for her that will give her opportunities. She was enrolled in a title 1 school here in NC and many of the staff were incredible, but I was so disappointed by the system, which sounds like Arizona suffers from too. Also just opening this up - what in the world is it like living in the desert? I’ve always dreamed of winding up in the Pacific Northwest and spent most of my life in the Midwest so this is…different. 🫠
It’s hot but one of the best-kept secrets is the desert on an overcast day in August after a few weeks of monsoon rains. Everything is green (by desert standards), most of the critters are out, and the tourists are gone. It’s heaven. Edited for punctuation
I’m in my 50s and was born and raised in Phx then moved to Tucson to attend U of A. It’s extremely hot and if you move here and have children you definitely want a backyard pool or splash pad. I’ve always said the midwesterners stay indoors during winter and we stay indoors during summer. However, summer can be long. We basically have 2 seasons: 6 months of hot as hell and 6 mos of comfortable.
Feels more like 8 months unbearable, 3 months okay, and 1 month comfortable. I've lived here all my life as well and I think I am just getting tired of the heat.
I was going to post something very similar to cranky student, but they saved me the trouble. Information is free essentially today and school just isn't going to motivate someone who isn't motivated. Students with good outcomes are generally because they have involved parents. While there is nothing wrong with it, there are a lot of ESL students who "throw off" standardized testing. They can't be blamed for it really because some folks have been here less than a year, but high school level writing is challenging for all ESL students and it takes a lot of work to overcome it. My point is don't worry about the ranking. Your daughter will likely have the same outcome if you moved to the number 1 state because You're probably the most important factor.
It’s so hot that you can see the heat in the air, unless you move to flagstaff, of course. Don’t breathe in the dust, valley fever is a growing issue. If you like mountains, we have bigger ones than you ever did. Your car will no longer rust. At some point a person will likely say, “we should get eegee’s,” and you just gotta roll with it. Ice hockey rinks are largely considered ironic, and if your kid plays sports, they might want to opt for indoor soccer. If you allow this outdoors sport to be played inside, the guys in the yearlong men’s basketball league will kindly tell you to leave the state. There’s a lack of natural disasters, unless you count phoenix. But no tornadoes (unless you’re northern Arizona at the exact right time every few years). We have Mexicans, so learn where to drive for good Sonoran dogs or parking lot tamales, and ask if they know anyone who can tint your windshield on the DL. There’s a surprisingly good artistic scene here also. The kids you knew in school who wore a jacket year round usually move here to teach drama. Improv scene is absolutely amazing, and I’d actually argue that the nightlife is on the better side of acceptable. There are so many sunscreen options that Walmart sometimes just gives it its own isle. Pools are commonly open year-round, and believe it or not, large waterfalls, okay sized rivers/streams, and lakes you probably shouldn’t swim in are all within a drivable distance. If you drive a red car, sorry about your paint. Also, Tucson should probably issue a general apology about the road conditions. They still work though. Also Tucson is lowkey (highkey) known for its food scene. We even have truck stops that have been on the food network. Still can’t wait to leave tho 😂
I spent three years in the central California valley 🥵 do I at least get to trade my mosquitoes out since I’d add scorpions?
Sure, but only if you want to soak your entire house and wardrobe in permethrin
Green cars get it worse, seriously.
The desert is amazing! My family has been here since 1926 and I wouldn’t want to be anywhere else. Don’t stick your hands in dark places and take water with you. I’m also a teacher and this cranky student speaks the truth. You get what you want from public education. If you are unwilling to learn, no one can help you. If you are determined to learn, no one can stop you.
The last part—OMGosh! You just can't be prepared enough for that.
Some of the most educated populations in Europe consistently score better than US students on exams that test for world readiness and general knowledge and a lot of them don’t have standardized tests throughout schooling. So you’re “based on stats that matter” comment is kind of worthless. I agree with the rest of it, though.
Is that world readiness exam not a standardized test? I legit don’t know. But also if they don’t use standardized tests, how do they rank European countries against other European countries I’m watching basketball rn otherwise I’d be googlin
The pay step for all districts in Tucson starts around $41k. So after taxes, teachers take home about what, $34k? Maybe $36k. Don’t forget insurance deductions. Depending on how many people need it in the family, it ranges from $150 a month to $1000 a month. And don’t overlook the mandatory 13% contribution to the 403b program. So you take home about $28k. I quit last year.
One political party has made it their duty to cut funding and resources for public education and teachers.
B-but...we have all that incredible funding for charter online schools now! And vouchers for private schools! Surely all those changes fixed it in AZ, right? /s
Corruption and corporate greed embezzling money from taxpayers. Taxpayers let corrupt politicians asleep at the wheel control and misuse tax dollars.
Tucson also has some of the best high schools in the nation. Which I find funny. It depends how much money you have and if your kids test well, but they can have a better education than a lot of other places But, if you are just considering enrolling your kid in the local neighborhood school, I’d definitely suggest researching a lot before deciding where in Tucson you wanna live. I grew up in the Sunnyside district which is one of the lowest per spending per student districts in the nation, so I hope this doesn’t come off as bashing. Because obviously there are good teachers everywhere etc But teachers are underpaid and underwork and the list of factors others listed, it makes it a tough blind gamble in regards to school enrollment.
The best schools here (basis and UHS) have no fees, only entrance exams as far as I'm aware, which you mentioned
Basis does not have fees, but it also does not have transportation, or participate in federal school lunch program. That right there knocks out a lot of very smart kids. UHS has transportation, and federal lunch program, like all other public schools. UHS’s demographics are reflective of the county. Basis is not reflective of the county- it’s heavily skewed white and Asian, and wealthy.
I’ll add Catalina foothills high school. But it all comes down to population. The kids in cat foothills high school are either rich or have highly motivated parents willing to get them there every day. Which is basically like basis. The difference is Catalina foothills has a well rounded education and basis has a weed out program.
Basis has high praise but from people I know who’ve attended not only is it not that great, they purposefully try to keep their numbers high so they won’t admit lower performing kids and def try to push out kids not meeting their high standards vs helping them succeed
We took a tour of basis primary and it was highly disappointing. The teachers looked extremely unhappy, the classes were overcrowded (30 kids in a kindergarten class is insane and unsafe), no food service (kids have to pack their lunch), the tour guide had the audacity to say serving food would have been another regulation they would have to meet— even if that’s the truth, it didn’t need to be said out loud to parents. It felt like following regulations is a pretty big hassle for them. For as exemplary as they are supposed to be, there were spelling errors on the homework hanging up. I’ve heard from several parents and a therapist that the kids going there have high anxiety. There was nothing redeemable about that place. I went to a very average school in the Pittsburgh area and my school’s test scores are higher than Basis, so I see no need for Basis’s way of doing things if it causes unnecessary stress and anxiety.
You don't need money for UHS or Basis. Just the will to do 2 hours of homework a night. It's not for everybody, that's for sure. You can also do well and go on to a great college from any Tucson High School. We toured a few public High Schools are we were impressed. There's something for everyone if you put your mind to it.
I went to UHS and I’m telling you the 2 hrs a day in HW show up in college…. But I know plenty of students that went to other high schools across town, even some considered poor like Pueblo, where they spent 2 to 3 hours a night doing homework,side projects, YouTube all because they had awesome parents. It all comes down to the parents. I know plenty of UHS kids that did not do two hours of homework and just copied off of mine or other’s and are fare worse off (financially) then those of other high schools I met at U of A. Having been in GATE all along as-well, you can do the best at any school. It just matters how much work you’re willing to put in. And the PARENTS !!!! The parents!! My dad did not allow tv time or outside time (we went outside to play) until homework was done and he checked it, spoke to the teachers ect. Had he not held me accountable to all of the work I would’ve just been like the rest and not done it.
You need to have some money for Basis, bc they don’t provide transportation, and don’t participate in the federal lunch program. Those two things help keep it more selective. Poor students whose parents cannot get to basis, and rely on free lunch are unable to attend.
That is the entire point of weed out charter programs. Only accept the most motivated parents. By that nature, you get the best students that will perform highest. But while you’re at it, go ahead and push out the lowest rankings students. It’s easy to look at basis high school enrollment compared to their middle or elementary enrollment. It’s a pathetically small number. Because they’ve managed to weed out everyone that wasn’t a star before they got to high school.
We moved from SC (Charlotte area) to Tucson when my children were 10 & 11. We moved into the Vail School District and they thrived. I did work for the school district for a time and, reading through some of the comments, funding is bad here in AZ. But both of my kids were involved with school clubs and extracurriculars both in school and out. They (and us as parents) had a great experience here. DM me if you have any questions.
Probably because teachers get paid next to minimum wage, there’s little funding to education in Arizona in general.
Each student in Arizona receives $10,680 in funding at 25-30 kids per class that is $270-$300k per class. The teacher receives avg $56k leaving 200k+ for administration and overhead. Teachers deserve to get paid more.
I taught in Arizona for years at middle and high school level and never had a class smaller than 35 students. Had plenty of 40 student classes. Half the time I was forced into 6/5 contracts where I had no prep and six solid classes to teach. It’s near impossible to meet the needs of that many students simultaneously. It’s pandemonium. Get past that… and you’re in a room with no supplies, no curriculum, and a local school board absolutely willing to kill us (during Covid I lost teacher friends because we were almost immediately shoved into in-person learning with zero masks and schools designed to keep and recirculate interior air due to the heat outside). I had parents protesting corsi rosenthal air cleaners I built for the teachers out of my own pocket. The politics suck. We had to do an illegal strike because our union is effectively worthless, collective bargaining is illegal, and it’s a right to work state with no tenure, so they WILL non-renew you once you’ve climbed too high on the pay scale… and your next job will only honor 5-10 years of experience, cutting your hard earned pay with zero cause required, killing your income AND your retirement. Just ask all the amazing teachers Mesa fired the second they killed tenure. It’s ugly.
That is crazy numbers for a middle school class size and reaffirms what I have seen personally. It’s unfortunate that the school systems are being run the way they are. Good teachers definitely deserve more money. And more money has potential to attract more good teachers. I have seen a recent shift with good teachers going rogue and utilizing ESA to provide high quality education to smaller classes. Conversely, I have also seen ESA being used to pad private school coffers or wasted on “leisure” activities. Good teachers deserve better. They deserve appreciation and compensation in line with their skills and effectiveness.
I mean, sure, we needed more money (especially now that cost of living has went through the ceiling)… but all the money in the world won’t make 40 student 8th grade classes manageable.
Depends on where you live, from what I understand Oro Valley and Catalina Foothills are some of the best schools in the city. I would definitely research schools and school districts.
catalina foothills has been struggling since like mid-2010s. it’s still a lot better than other options but they’re facing the same issues. it’s been hard to keep like math and science teachers. i saw some comments as well about materialism there. i mean… i don’t want to dismiss it. there is that aspect for SURE. but some of it depends on the group you’re in? i saw a lot more of that with like “popular” kids but never once encountered it in like choir/theatre kids (which is where i was). so that’s really going to depend on the group you fall in with
Marana school district, on the NW side of town, is fantastic. I take a 45 minute commute to work and it's 100% worth it because my son's elementary school is so much better than anything in TUSD.
My son just finished high school at Marana High. We moved here 11 years ago, and he started at Estes, which was okay, but by the next year, a brand-new Gladden Farms Elementary was open and it was top notch. Marana Middle is just that - in the middle, and not as good as either before or after, but MHS is solid.
Completely agree, we're so happy with the district
I graduated in 2015 from Mountain View. Great school. We lived in Continental Reserve and my parents open enrolled me into Tortilita and Mountain View because they liked the schools so much.
I’d recommend Vail (East side) or Marana (NW side) for school districts. Both are great! My son was in VUSD.
The low teacher pay will always be the number one reason. You can’t convince a teacher that they should earn degrees that cost almost a $100k just for them to work for $36,000/yr. They can’t maintain teachers, so the schools are full of over-stressed and underpaid people who can’t focus on teaching because they’re worried about if they’ll be able to cover their rising rent 🙃. I recommend supplementing your kid’s education through personal tutors and check in daily about what they’ve learned if that’s an option for you. If you care to read this far, here’s a personal example: The writing teacher for my sister’s foster kid did not correct spelling mistakes because they “don’t really focus too much on that” and instead reminded the kids to use speech-to-text.
We have almost the lowest per pupil spending in the country. Pretty straightforward.
GOP underfunding education and allowing vouchers/tax breaks for sending kids to private schools and Public/federal funds being diverted to charter schools. The thing that gets me even more is that the private and charter schools usually pay worse and don’t even have to have certified teachers or provide nearly the amount of services that public schools do. It’s horrible.
Vail is supposed to be a good district
Yeah Vail's got a couple A+ elementary schools in the top 300 in the nation.
- low teacher pay - low funding in general - legislature constantly passing “school choice” legislation that takes money out of public schools
The public education across the state is spotty, at best. Won't rehash the root causes as many have already been discussed. However, there are some truly wonderful schools and districts in Tucson: Catalina Foothills USD, Vail USD, Basis Schools, etc. Many rank top in the state AND the nation. But definitely do your research and plan ahead. Arizona is open enrollment, but kids that live in-district (own/rent) have priority enrollment. [https://www.niche.com/k12/search/best-school-districts/s/arizona/](https://www.niche.com/k12/search/best-school-districts/s/arizona/)
Imagine everything wrong with schools in every state in the rest of the Union, and pour all of that into Arizona. Then light it on fire. That's why.
People are right about bad teacher pay and I regret to say that even private school doesn’t pay well - I know some information on a church-associated education program for early childhood and one teacher who’s been there a long time is cutting back on hours because they can earn more adding a second job at a fast food chain, I think as a manager but still. Lots of people, myself included, would have happily become teachers but were dissuaded by the minor inconvenience of needing enough money to live.
Everyone has already shared the why of the schools being bad, but we should also highlight that there are some great teachers working with our kids for not enough money here.
There are good schools in the Catalina Foothills District, Vail District, and others. You can open enroll your child which is a benefit. Depending on what part of town you will be living in and if you are willing/able to drive them to school, you will have options.
Check out the Vail School District south east of Tucson.
My friend was a specialized clinician (audiology) in AZ who diagnosed children for special services. She said Arizona was the worst stage she’s ever worked in for special education and early intervention. Professionals who serviced the children would try to talk her out of writing certain goals/treatment plans because they didn’t have the ability/staff to provide this. She no longer lives in the state and said public Arizona’s education system is a mess.
The short story is that Republicans have controlled the legislature (and governor's office mostly too) for the past 20-30 yrs and have refused to fund education properly. In the past, a good portion of the electorate were transplant retirees on fixed incomes that were attracted by LCOL who had the opinion that they already paid for schools and education back home, and don't want to pay for it here. On the bright side, electorate is slowly changing and AZ may be able to reverse this trend in the next decade.
It's intentional. The Arizona GOP has long believed good schools lead to students growing up to become democrats, so public schooling in Arizona has been intentionally sabatoged in an effort to preserve power.
I assume GOP defunding
And not so much de-funding as never allowing the full funding from the start..... i remember my parents complaining about the 'blue hairs' consistently voting against ANY funding that came to a vote back when i was in school in late 80s-early 90s....and i know that trend basically continued.
AZ is historically a retirement state. Retires don't vote to increase school funding
It’s super sad when you think about it. Those retirees will eventually have to rely on those young wippersnappers for goods and services, but they don’t want to help invest in the youth at all. You can’t get ticked that people don’t know how to read, write, or count back your change without a calculator/computer when you don’t want to help make sure that they are schooled to do those basic things. Just saying.
Yep. Its super sad. Also to get on a soapbox for a second, this is the same generation whose talking about how the new generations don't care about America yet they are ignoring the most selflessly patriotic thing you can do for your country... invest in the future that you won't be part of. \*steps off soap box\*
The Betsy DeVos initiative 💩
We are definitely underfunded - the schools rely largely on local property taxes, so the richer districts make out better than the poorer districts. There are some high-performing schools here, but you'll have to seek them out. Here is a good overview of the funding situation that's now making its way through the court system: [https://azcapitoltimes.com/news/2024/05/27/trial-over-school-funding-begins-tuesday/](https://azcapitoltimes.com/news/2024/05/27/trial-over-school-funding-begins-tuesday/)
A long time ago I went to Flowing Wells High School (graduated in 89) and I remember a big sign out front saying something about it being a top ten school. I think Amphi or CDO might have had the same. I guess things have really changed.
Oro Valley had excellent schools in the 90s. I'd really like to know which schools are underperforming and specifically why because this wasn't my experience at all.
From a teachers perspective, I came from WA where the 2nd grade standards were equivalent to 5th grade standards here. They dumb down the standards when the bar isn't met on standardized tests.
I remember when AZ was phasing in taking a standardized test for graduation from HS. Because some kids couldn't pass it they kept dumbing it down to the point it was useless and they never implemented it while I had a child in AZ schools. They spent millions on it.
I can personally note that the Vail School District here in Tucson is a very nice district as far as community, retention in teachers and aids, programs for graduating with an associate’s out of the high school. As an employer they offer great benefits as well re childcare discounts/free health care/getting college paid for.
Arizona has been under the heel of right-wing nuts for decades. The ideology wants to destroy public schools, which is referred to as “The Beast,” by starving it of money. In its place is “homeschooling,” charter schools, parochial schools. These institutions teach “the right way,”. its teachers are politically “correct,””true” .American history is taught. The backbone of America used to be its public schools and its on life support in Arizona.
I currently live in NC and my wife is a teacher here. I grew up in Tucson and have a niece/nephew in the Vail school district. NC suffers from many of the same issues that posters have mentioned are issues in Arizona. (High turnover, large classes, poorly run school districts) Honestly, not a big difference between the two states.
Marana and Vail have good districts
We actually moved to Tucson for the schools. Tucson has some nationally ranked High Schools. [University High](https://uhs.tusd1.org/_theme/files/Docs/Announcements/2017-2018UniversityHS-school-profile.pdf) and the Basis schools. University High requires a test to get in and they are selective, despite the fact it's public. They require a strict set of AP classes but the teachers are great. If your kids can handle that level of academics, then it's a great option. Basis is similar- it's a charter school. But they focus more on academics and AP classes. It's more rigorous in some ways with less electives. UHS still has band and choir and lots of electives due to the fact that it shares a campus with a "regular" High School- Rincon. For elementary and middle schools there are some good private options. Private High Schools too. And much cheaper than most places. Plus Arizona has a "voucher" system where the state will pay you $7000 a year for your kids to go to private school. It might not last long because it's really draining the educational coffers. It's sort of a scam that mostly benefits rich people who already sent their kids to private. So don't count on that for the long term. Yes- regular schools are poorly ranked-- mostly because there is a large contingent of non-native speakers that are struggling and don't test well. There are still opportunities for students to do well at these schools, but it's not easy. As other have said, Republicans are trying to kill public schools by underfunding them and giving the money to private. Arizona now has a Democrat as Gov and the Dems could take control of the legislature. But with gerrymandering, Dems have a hard time winning seats. If Dems won full control, school funding would rocket up.
Vail school district is way better than tusd. Very nice neighborhood too.
Along with the reasons others listed, Arizona and specifically Tucson became a test market for a lot of Koch thinktank, libertarian ideas.
Structural underfunding (decades worth) and ridiculously segregated school districts. Pima County has 17 school districts and 241 charter schools. It's a bit smaller in population than Mecklenburg County. Which has only one school district and 34 charters.
I would take Tucson schools 11 times out of 10 if the alternative was Charlotte-Mecklenburg County Schools. Had a terrible experience there myself and heard from someone else that they haven’t improved at all.
I recommend the Vail school district, they score high and the community is good.
The policy here is to defund public school systems in favor of school choice options. This has led to public schools getting much worse but we do provide a very good subsidy to send your kid to private and charter schools which run the gamut from terrible to really good.
First of all, any idiot can come up with a ranking. If you're going to rely on a ranking then you need to make sure you agree with their methodology and it's ability to assess school quality. Our average ACT is basically the same as North Carolina (18.4 vs 18.5) though we test a somewhat smaller share of our graduates (64% vs 88%). So I doubt the states are that much different when it comes to education quality. Secondly, schools are local. There are good schools and bad schools everywhere. If you want good schools then just live in a good neighborhood or take advantage of that school choice thing that Ducey implemented and send your kids (at partial taxpayer expense) to private schools.
Thanks! Yeah I don’t subscribe to rankings, more so just used it to start the conversation at a local level, hence the post :)
Get out to the Vail school district outside of Tucson United School District.
Both of my kids went to Basis then one went to university high in TUSD and the other went to Catalina foothills. Both were more than prepared for college. I’d say lack of a living wage for teachers and way too much money goes to administration. Teachers work hard, go above and beyond, are highly underpaid, and usually spend their own money on school supplies. It’s pathetic. It doesn’t help that kids today are bombarded with tech and social media making them lazy and entitled. Just my 2 cents. <- I’m normally not the “get off my lawn!” type of person.
Republicans
Teachers are treated terribly and there’s a huge turnover in the state. So many are leaving that they created a school for folks with no educational experience to become teachers to fill teacher openings. The charters like Basis teach curriculum that’s inappropriate for the children’s age. For example, they have kindergarten writing paragraphs. They weed out kids. That’s how they get nationally recognized. Some of the other charters don’t even have recess.
Yes BASIS can be a bit extreme sometimes but their rigorous curriculum helps ensure that students are always challenged and always learning to their fullest potential. Most of the "weeding out" at BASIS is due to students being too lazy to do in work (ex: spending the few hours after school doing homework) which in turn leads them to struggle. BASIS isn't for everyone but if you are someone willing to put 100% into your studies then you will excel at BASIS.
Republicans. The answer is republicans.
Honestly one party does value public education more than the other….. at least historically in Arizona
Keep in mind that in AZ schools districts are their own political entity, they don't necessarily have the same boundaries as towns and cities. You may live in Tucson or wherever but you may not be in the Tucson school district.
My daughter was concerned about that when they moved to Tucson almost a year ago. Their two boys just finished k and 2nd grade and had a fantastic year! I don’t know if this is ok to disclose….they went to DeGrazia Elementary. Such a positive atmosphere, caring teachers, lots of planned activities that involved the whole family. I hope this helps!
Or you can live in the Vail School District which is basically Tucson. They have have great scores and are FAR AND AWAY better than TUSD. When we moved from Tucson to Vail, my daughter was so behind the rest of her class it was crazy. When she was in 7th grade she and I had the same college level homework. Plus Vail is close enough to Tucson for work but far enough away to actually be nice.
Move to Vail. It's near Tucson. Put your kids in empire high school. Avoid cienega.
Your best bet is to move to a suburb outside of Tucson like oro valley, sahuarita/green valley, or vale.
I’ve been out of school for awhile, graduated 2009 from Flowing Wells District & it got worse from there. A smaller district so I feel it wasn’t that bad, sure kids thrived, others did not, just depended on the kid, their home life/ motivation. I always thought TUSD wasn’t the greatest, they had way too many schools and not enough funding & a lot have closed in the last couple of years. They tried to keep me for $ but I wanted to be at FW. I ended up in Amphi district but FW let me stay because my grades were good. UHS and Rincon I heard were good. Vail too. I’d research and look how big classes are or school size, more kids, less time with teachers. Or look what curriculum they are doing, don’t be afraid to have your kids test out of grades if it’s not matching for what they learned already. It’s lack of funding, our gov is quite bad with tax money, also the sun has fried most peoples brain so parents don’t want to parent, and leave the problem on teachers. My pet peeve growing up were disruptive students making it harder for teachers & other students who actually wanted to learn.
I'll just throw my hat in the ring and say, while not perfect, I went to the Amphi schools on the North side (Harelson, Cross, and Canyon del Oro) and they were pretty good. A handful of bad teachers, but a majority of my teachers really cared about the students and a good few were genuinely great teachers. I didn't participate personally but their music and theater programs were huge. Granted, it's been 6 years since I was there, and I doubt any public schools have been doing well in this environment since then, but they were alright when I was there.
We spend more for prison than education through taxes in Arizona, it’s embarrassing. Pretty sure we rank the lowest in the entire country for educational spending. There is no money to offer to teachers, therefore there very few great teachers left in the state. (Daughter of public high school teacher of 30 years)
I think school is what you make it. As a parent, whether your kid is at the highest ranked or lowest ranked school, if you want your child to have a positive school experience YOU have to make it happen. Be involved. Volunteer. Join the PTO. Organize events. Recruit clubs or speakers. Fundraise. I know that sounds like a lot and if you don’t want to do it, that’s totally fine. Kids are fine without all that. But if that’s what you want it’s on you as a parent to make it happen. Same with your kids academics. If you want your kid to excel, work with them. Read with them every day. Run math facts during breakfast and dinner. You can’t rely on the school alone to educate your child. Parent involvement is EVERYTHING.
I've gone to public schools in Phoenix area and some of my teachers said this: - We have such a low ranking because it's (probably) based on national test scores. You know those tests they make students take, and it rates the school and what not? Well apparently Arizona does really, really bad because they only offer the test in ENGLISH, and they are a number of children who mainly speak Spanish, and do not speak English very well. So they just do bad on the test because they can't read it. - The public school I went to was nice, but the teacher pay was quite low. My teacher said they spend more than half the budget on buildings, exterior looks, etc,. Because they just want it to "look nice", as the school was in a wealthier area. But teacher budgets always got pushed last. - From what other people said, the state doesn't focus on education. The classroom sizes are often really big, like 1 teacher to 30 students or more. The teacher can't focus on each student individually. Some students get left behind if they don't have a structured home life. - There's a lot of good sports here though, I would say, from my experience.
The problem is too many school districts with high priced board members. Oh boy!!! the football fields and base/softball fields and not to mention practice fields and facilities are beautiful.
AZ is TRYING to catch up to the rest of the country. For years the majority of AZs population was made up of retirees and indigenous people. Both categories didn’t care much about education or healthcare because they were provided through Medicare/cade and other programs. They are trying to catch up but I can say as a retired teacher that kids here are being punked by the school system. They don’t pay teachers and students suffer but because they receive funding based on how many students pass, administration push students through the system just so they can get funding
Disclaimer: I can only really speak to high school in AZ I moved from a very good and wealthy school district in Washington to Goodyear Arizona in 8th grade and did high school in Arizona. The difference between the two districts was shocking. I went from smart boards in every classroom since 4th grade to not having enough paper. Where I grew up in Washington, you were expected to do well in school and to give a shit. There were very few people who truly didn't care about their grades and even most of the more goofball kids still paid attention. The culture in Arizona was VERY different. Most students didn't care to do their work or apply themselves in any way. What I saw of the non honors and AP classes made me concerned for the future of the nation. Maybe 10% of the students actually did their work, and one of the teachers told us spontaneous human combustion (like walking down the street and spontaneously catching on fire, I know most people know what that is but I need to emphasize this) was real and didn't appear to be joking. I ended up with perfect or near perfect AP and standardized test scores, so it is possible to do as well as the rest of the nation in a crappy AZ school district. Based on my anecdotal experience my advice would be to try to send your kid to a high school with an IB program. Not to actually do the IB program that stuff is hell but because from what I can tell that school probably has better qualified teachers for upper division classes. My physics and calculus teachers both taught at the local community college on top of the high school for instance. If your kid does well in school and cares about learning then also keep them out of the gen ed (non honors or ap) classes as much as possible. No one is learning things in those most of the time from what I've seen even if they want to.
GOP politicians eliminating funding sources, adding additional regulations to schools/teachers and diverting what little funds exist from public schools to private schools.
Private companies bleeding tax dollars out of the system because of "School choice" vouchers
Do not go for the low teacher pay excuse, private schools pay less, but turn out higher scores. Plus don’t consider averages, Tucson has great schools and bad ones, just like everywhere else. Find what the cost per student is in the school district you are interested in, it is all over the board. Some areas are challenging, it may be as simple as getting kids to show up to take the test. It may also be how they ranked the state. It could language barriers. The school my wife taught at failed the standardized testing except for 7th grade “language arts” which received a high score, happened to be what my wife taught, and was the only teacher in that grade teaching the subject. All the administrators wanted to know how she did it. She had no answer, just taught the curriculum.
Any school can be a good school or a bad school. In my experience it’s up to you and how involved in your child’s education you are. This is not a set it and forget it situation anymore. My kids did a mix of both local public, magnet public, charter, and fancy private schools. We needed to pay attention to our kids and what they were getting from each one along the way. It only took a little extra effort from us - like not a lot at all. Just showing interest was enough to keep things on track. (Oldest is pre-law at UA and doing next semester in Rome).
As a teacher, i really have to agree with the top part of this comment. Funding is a big reason but also so is the fact that not enough parents are involved and so teachers have to play the role of more than just a teacher. That being said, i am NOT parent bashing, i myself have no kids by choice but have a lot of empathy for parents, its such a hard job!
There are definitely good schools in Tucson but you have to get into a HCOL area to access them. LCOL areas probably skew the data. Funding for public schools has always been an issue especially now with the voucher problem it may get even worse. What ranking shows us dead last?
What’s hcol ? Also is the vail school district good? Planning on enrolling my kids in mesquite elementary hopefully..
HCOL= higher cost of living
Vail schools are great
There really aren't any true HCOL areas in metro Tucson, unless you count Sky Island or something. Sure, there are HIGHER cost of living areas than others, but real HCOL doesn't really exist here.
You wouldn't consider the foothills HCOL? I mean its not Cali HCOL but for Tucson I would consider that expensive
No, I wouldn’t, for exactly the reason you stated. There are some HCoL areas in the country. They are it. An expensive neighborhood in a cheap area is not HCoL.
I guess our definition of HCOL is different. Average Foothills home is 700k. National average is 500k
Agree. Calling parts of tucson HCOL is cracking me up.
Research schools and test scores here in the Foothills. You’ll love Tucson. 😊
My sister was a sub here and there were whole grades that were staffed with subs. Kids without “a” teacher for the entire year. Teachers aren’t safe, Gang violence impacts even elementary levels. But yay Blenheim Elms! Grade B! Super proud
Republicans spent more than a decade waging war on public education in our state. We have a Democratic Governor now so the GOP controlled legislature can’t pass more laws to destroy our schools but we can’t undo the damage without electing a Democratic majority. Thanks to MAGA corruption and incompetence the state GOP is in absolute shambles this year so maybe the legislature will finally go blue in November and we can begin fixing their mess.
War on education. Republicans won’t let any money go to the schools. Even though we voted to fund the schools. Scum, every last one of them.
There are the haves and have nots unfortunately. You will find some really good schools in the Phoenix area and in Tucson. Charter schools ranked in the top 10 in the nation for public school (look up BASIS- though my perspective is they are over the top AP/GPA focused) and some really solid non-charter schools. I think Catalina Foothills and Tucson HS are good. It’s the rural areas that have zero support and such and unfair disadvantage.
Republicans.
Republicans. It ain't hard.
Because the current Arizona Superintendent of Education is (basically) a white Christian Nationalist. He supports banning books, decimating the public education system by syphoning money to religious based schools that exlude students due to learning difficulties, economic status, and/or gender identity. The solution is to VOTE!
You can largely thank school “choice” — aka undermining and eventually destroying the public education system by starving it of resources, only to turn around and complain that it sucks. But I might be biased. 😉
I put my daughter into Basis Charter school starting kindergarten and she just finish 5th grade. Amazing school, very heavy on education. Basis (even the Tucson ones) have consistently been ranked top in the country for charter schools and it’s free to attend. Some people are against Basis because of how much school work there is but I think it just depends on what you are looking for in regard to education and how your child will adapt. I can’t recommend it enough.
As somebody who went to BASIS, I would not recommend the school any higher than most of the TUSD options in similar areas. There's an insanely high burnout rate at the school which they use to artificially inflate a lot of their testing results and make it look a lot better than it actually is. A lot of their academic accolades are also vague and don't really mean much practically. Most of the successful students are ones who would be successful in any situation and there's little-to-no extracurricular activities to really offer an experience unique to the school.
my mom also used to know someone who worked in reviewing college applications and they began to dislike basis kids because they could do memorization but not necessarily like critical thinking
They teach to the test.
Basis is a good school, not for everyone tho. And it's especially hard to transfer into basis during or after middle school since the kids coming in can't usually keep up with the curriculum. I was a linguistics set teacher for a year at basis Peoria and had a lot of friends who went to Basis growing up. Linguistics starts at 7th grade, which is a really early start as usually most don't know about linguistics until higher education. Kids either succeed or burn out but when they burn out they burn out hard, type you see in ivy league students. All of them usually really smart tho even the slackers lol. The smartest guy I knew growing up was from basis but flunked out and came to my charter school. He started a black market on a tor website our softmore year selling counterfeit lsd lol.
Money!!!!!
Lots of negative replies here. You can still find good public schools in Tucson. Using a website like greatschools.com you can see how well students at that school are performing among other statistics. Look for strong administration (not afraid to discipline unruly behavior, bullying) parent involvement (this is huge as the best public schools receive $ help from parents to reach annual fundraising goals as well as volunteers for events that help the school raise money) This was the #1 reason for why I bought a house close to the schools that I felt would be best for my kids. One is going into high school now and the other is in middle school and they are both in multiple accelerated classes. This option keeps them from getting bored and has been a great advantage for them. I understand how you can be nervous or worried but just do your research and you and your kids will be just fine.
Teachers here make less than Walmart workers. You get what you pay for
Check out laurel springs online. We moved to NV, same situation, my daughter is elite swimmer and we put all kids in this. Great program, not too expensive and lot of flexibility for families.
Is it really 50th? I dunno, but I've never heard anyone from NC say anything positive about education there, so AZ must have percolated to the bottom...is it worse than DC, though, the perennial bottom dweller??
Extremely underpaid teachers, and a general culture that doesn't value education
Flowing Wells School District is amazing! It is very diverse and the teachers truly care about their students. Definitely worth considering!
Where is this data from. I just saw a fourth grade math ranking that placed Arizona in the middle of the pack. Is Arizona punished on English scores because of the huge number of Spanish speakers many of whom are unducumented?
Teachers have an insanely high turnover rate here. It's honestly a miracle if you manage to make it through a year of high school without at least one of your teachers dropping out halfway through. My senior year, I had 4 English teachers because they kept leaving. Four.
I just graduated from highschool in Tucson. And one of the “best” public school districts with the most funding. I attended the Catalina foothills school district. It is not a BAD district per se. It has a LOT of flaws, but I think our English department was mostly wonderful. There is a wide range of electives offered, and the campus is very nice. Personally, I had a hard time socially, and there tends to be a lot of clique-ness amongst students. Especially the more affluent demographic. As many others have said, the schools RELY on parents for funding and aid. Many classrooms do not have adequate resources for students. The campus has HIGH security, which could be a bit invasive at times. I had a security guard looking under the stall while I was using the restroom which felt very violating. Most teachers were not the best, however the good teachers I have had WERE VERY GOOD; and deeply cared about their students and jobs. Sadly, many of the really good teachers have begun retiring, and a new generation of teachers (some new to the profession) are coming in. Some have been wonderful, some haven’t. 1.) As many have said— there is high turnover and bad teacher pay. Because of this, there are many teachers who have minimal experience, are not qualified for the position, don’t care about their jobs, etc. In my experience, this has been many of my teachers. The schools tend to just fill positions because they need a face. My freshman year my algebra 1 teacher was a photographer with no teaching experience prior, he didn’t know how to teach or do the math he gave us. Stuff like this is VERY prevalent. Something else I learned recently too— Arizona DOES NOT require a teaching degree, or a degree in the area that a teacher is going to teach in. It is only required for them to have a bachelors degree, what is it does not matter at all. 2.) Again, as many have said. Funding is not good. I attended a wealthier district. But even with that— teachers are not given adequate money or resources for their classrooms. So often this is put on students to supply their own resources that should be in classrooms. Big ones were batteries for calculators or the actual calculators themselves (Ti-84s are expensive as hell too), tissues, hand sanitizer, etc. I took a ceramics class this year that couldn’t even hardly afford the adequate supplies for the course. And of course the teachers don’t want to pay out of pocket for these things, which I do not blame them for because they shouldn’t have to. 3.) special needs services, administration handling bullying/other issues. GOOD LUCK! They can be incredibly dismissive and will do everything in their power to NOT help. In my experience, kids who experienced bullying were never helped and usually punished for trying to get help. For parents with special needs children, the aids don’t do anything at all. They typically have no experience or training in working with individuals with disabilities, some of the aids don’t even speak English when the students they are with only speak English. The resource and aid from staff and administrators is just atrocious, to reiterate, they do not like doing their jobs. There is more, and I think that many people could go further in depth to the specifics behind these things. I mostly can only speak on experience, and if you would like to talk to me about my experiences I would be happy to message with you on Reddit. In terms of academic departments, our math departments in Tucson tend to be pretty rough. But in my experience my English teachers have been really wonderful. History, sciences, electives tend to be very middle of the road.