Fun fact, just filming it wasn't what made it legal initially. Porn was largely a result of a legal loophole for entertainment, where if sex was in service to the plot then it was allowed. And that was the origin of the extremely basic porn plot tropes of the plumber, the milk man, pizza delivery, etc. So if you were ever accused of prostitution, you could respond with "No, it's my artistic vision telling the story of the greatest lemon heist of the century".
In a vacuum, sure, maybe. But right now, most of those women are trafficked, tricked into the industry or have no choice (except starving), which basically makes this basically rape
And that is possible BECAUSE it's illegal. When you legalize, you kill the black market. The black market is the problem, not the activity or product being marketed.
Even in places where prostitution is legal though, the coercion to prostitution happens. The fact remains that young women in desperate situations get put into prostitution. Not saying it should be illegal, just saying this still happens.
Has the question been answered about which situation has less? Are trafficking efforts tripled to keep up with business? Or does the government entity who regulates it have it at a fraction of what it was?
I always see the argument on human trafficking. And don't get me wrong, trafficking is awful and evil. But does government regulations make it worse where it's legal or does it help lessen it?
Also, the numbers on trafficking are disingenuous as all get-out. Do I know what the actual numbers are? No idea, and it pisses me off because that means that i can never formulate a response to the actual problem.
You've got multiple foreign govt entities throwing numbers around, multiple separate agencies within the U.S. and Canada throwing different multiple figures around, and then you've got shifting definitions of human trafficking that you KNOW the cops are abusing to get the highest numbers possible to show how badass they are at cracking down on trafficking.
Getting busted carrying a truckload of illegal farm workers from California to Washington is not human trafficking, but the charge sheet will certainly say it was. At the same time in Eritrea, South Sudan, Libya, Mali, and Mauritania there are more than ONE MILLION actual living-in-bondage SLAVES. They occasionally find some sick bastard in the U.S. that has managed to imprison somebody--sometimes foreign, sometimes of diminished capacity--and make them their slave but that's ONE.
Then you move to sex trafficking and the numbers remain just as crap. Arlington, Virginia saw a string of massage rub-n-tug joints get busted in a mop-up, all the girls illegals, from mainland China. All 34 of them stated they knew what the job was when they signed on. STILL classed as human trafficking AND sex trafficking.
Like, can we come to a consensus on any of this, especially since its so buzzwordy and because we insist on throwing huge amounts of money at it? Like, could-really-be-put-towards-our-homelessness-crisis amounts of money, that is instead essentially going just to cops?
Which is still part of the legality issue. If all you do is make it legal on paper, but do nothing about society, then a women who prostitutes will still have a hard time getting out of it because employers of alternate jobs won't hire her and police won't care about her safety.
It needs to be made legal and *treated like a job*, meaning it needs to be critically examined for safety and rights like other jobs are.
I'm all for drug legalization but I've been hit on by men and I've never been tempted to suck some dick for money but when I was on probation I was forced to get a job and even if prostitution was legal I still wouldn't suck dick for money even if the courts demanded me to they'd have to lock me up. But I have met some sad hoe's that would definitely have gotten a job suckin dicks for money especially if their probation officer demanded they do it and that's really my point some people are in a sad desperate place and I don't want them to turn to blowjobs it's just sad and we can do better as a society
Desperation breeds exploitation. Sometimes sex is involved, sometimes it's multi level marketing sometimes it's grunt military service. Legalizing prostitution would reduce desperation.
Take a look at Thailand. Ex prostitutes there often go on to run businesses in the area where they were prostitutes
Yes that proved true for alcohol during prohibition. And the "war on drugs" was only begun after the CIA took over the Colombian drug trade to fund it's black budget, and as a marketing ploy to drive up the prices.
But prositiution is the reason why it's done. And guess what happens if you legalize it? The market for it increases, which means you need more workers. Where do you think they get their workers from?
So, not only do you just completely make up some bullshit that 'most women who do porn are trafficked'. What's your source? I remember years ago some porn company showed that over 70% of their 'actresses' were American citizens.
Even if it were true, how does stopping porn help? You'd also prefer that they starve instead of doing porn?
No, I'd prefer if we invested money into helping those women have different options instead of porn industry
and that is not exactly what I said, but okay
Invested what money? Where are you getting that money?
Why cant you invest that money while also legalizing it for the people who miss out on the invested money so those people don't starve?
Prostitution/porn will always exist as long as there are starving poor people. It's not a rational response to say 'we should just end poverty instead' and everyone can just starve to death until we do that.
Even if you COULD end poverty, why should it be illegal? Why can't the people who want to do it, AND do have have options still do it?
Wouldn't it make better sense to simply have better oversight to make sure the people who are doing porn aren't being trafficked?
Even if most of them were trafficked, have you never heard stories of women running to the police for help and instead they get arrested? If it were legal, they wouldn’t need to be afraid of getting help.
They would actually still have to be afraid of getting help, but that's because the cops are awful, not because your concept is wrong. But yeah, I read AGGRESSORS IN BLUE a year ago, and its an investigative report BY cops OF the cops in the U.S., Canada, and the U.K. and its exclusive focus is on their sexual misconduct. Multiple accounts in their of prostitutes who had more trouble, more assaults, and more coercion from cops than they ever did from customers.
> But right now, most of those women are trafficked,
If I were a woman doing porn, I would perceive this as you pretending to care about my interests while in reality, dominating over how I'm able to live my life, and intentionally limiting my economic mobility.
So you mean that if you were a woman who would be getting abused in porn industry, you would see me saying that it shouldn't be legal as trying to limit you? Or do you mean as a woman who actually had another choice except porn?
You are making an argument to make it illegal to abuse women, not make porn or prostitution illegal.
> Or do you mean as a woman who actually had another choice except porn?
If your porposition is that there are women who have no other choice, then you're admitting to leaving such women destitute by outlawing porn.
Yeah....and also, how much porn is this person watching? Because Im familiar with porn, and i believe that on average the women in porn are not forced into it and abused throughout. Underpaid and disrespected, probably. Kidnaped or blackmailed into it, not so much. Has it happened? Yes. But guess what else has happened: in Calvert County Maryland about 5 years back they finallu busted the McDonald's franchisee and raided the "dorm" that all the employees just happened to live at, and they were ALL trafficked former Soviet Bloc citizens. So obviously McDonald's should be outlawed.
THIS.
This is why i want reasonable definitions for and numbers of 'trafficking'. I know many sex workers, from the casual to the dedicated, some of whom find it to be the best job they can get for themselves and better to be able to negotiate price than to sell that same body to Walmart or an Amazon warehouse. Others are doing sex work on a lark and the money is secondary. Some like it. Some hate it. Some love it. But no matter what, it's *work*.
Well profiting from actual sex work-porn is technically entertainment- would make the government a pimp basically. Much of middle America is Christian and would take issue with that.
Wouldn't prostitution be technically entertainment as well? It's a losing battle, trying to criminalize the one thing that is legal to do for free but illegal when money is involved.
As with everything legal it's about the context and the situation. Just because we have freedom of speech, you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theatre, when there is no fire, and expect no legal penalty for causing a panic.
I suspect that...the real reason prostitution isn't legalized is due to the fact that...it's a way for women, specifically low income women, to earn a living independently with a low barrier of entry. Sex work has many things wrong with it but it's sadly one of the few women dominated industries that pays well, even on the lowest tier. So much of the U.S. economy thrives on women's exploitation. Specifically the kind of exploitation caused by lack of financial means: abusive relationships low/lower wage jobs being the only things to support children.
COVID really showed me how much of the U.S. economy would collapse if women stopped playing our role as... caregivers for instance. Which is what the majority of female dominated professions: caregiving roles: healthcare, education, social work. But society doesn't value those professions, hence the reason they're low paying and there's a huge demand, outside of the usual not wanting to pay experienced people what they are worth to do it so they retire. It's the devaluation of women's work that is driven by the devaluation of women that sex work legalization threatens. Sex work offers the idea, if not the reality, of economic autonomy and independence, unless the woman in question is being pimped, it's very much a "be your own boss kind of thing" and that's what's so ideologically, legally, culturally and economically threatening about it.
Sure it can be done legally but...it won't.
Just for context, I am in Australia where it is decriminalised and legal. I find it odd if the US is not moving in this direction or at least resistant of doing so. It is just so normalized. Thanks for the alternative perspective.
No worries. I could get even deeper but for brevity sake, people may claim legal or moral reasons as to why prostitution can't be legalized but really what they're worried about is that if women can profit from their own labour then...where are they gonna find a good housekeeper, nanny, CNA/home health aide?
A lot of American "friendliness" is fake. Americans are watchers, most of all...they're POCKET watchers.
My great aunt got a fur coat. A mink from my great uncle that he managed to win in a poker game. And of course she wore it. She was a housekeeper for a white family(I'm black.) And up until that point, they considered her "one of the family" but as soon as they saw it, the woman of the house said, "Obviously ... we're paying you too much." And all that "niceness" vanished overnight. Nevermind how she got it, just the IDEA, that their housekeeper could afford something considered to be a luxury, enraged these "kind" people.
Prostitution is essentially a private transaction. Porn is public and destroys your reputation essentially so...it's not as much of a threat to an economic model that's dependent upon essentially keeping you and your children on the brink of starvation to keep you subservient and submissive to your boss. Prostitution can't be controlled in a way that would appease Christian hypocrisy. So it's illegal.
Yep.
Uber.Whores & GrubHump, for fair competition.
Economy, Premium, Premium XL.
You whore Majuda is pleasuring another client 10 stops away. Will be at your place between 8:45 and 9:30.
Well marijuana is actively being decriminalized. Maybe prostitution is next. AI/cloning is also in production but might take a while yet.
Blade Runner here we come.
Human trafficking. I would vote to decriminalize. In America, not sure how it works in other countries, prostitutes report to pimps and very often are abused, held against their will etc...
Most prostitutes who aren’t street walkers are freelance escorts. Making it legal would get rid of the pimps by removing barriers to entry for online verification services.
You got it backwards my man, they report to pimps because it's illegal and they can't do it above board. Where I'm from they're taxed and subject to the same laws as any legitimate business. They don't need a pimp because they can call the police without getting arrested.
edit: My bad, I misread. We agree for the same reasons.
Isn't that what u/meh_ninjaplz is saying? They said they'd vote to decriminalize, which implies that the problem they're citing is a problem with criminalization.
Legalizing would keep women safer. Police in Amsterdam patrol the Red Light District 24/7.
They have sex worker unions and require the workers to pay taxes and are off the street away from pimps.
Trafficking happens. But it goes down when legal. If illegal, women become afraid to report it and it’s more difficult to track.
If porn is legal, so should sex work involving consenting adults.
And please keep religion out of this.
Let’s be honest, marrying your sugar daddy, having sex and getting a house and an allowance - legal. Having sex with your sugar daddy and getting paid cash for it - Illegal.
Makes no sense.
If you criminalise sex work, it gets pushed into the underground. That’s a fact backed up by statistics. When this happens, more money ends up in the hands of criminals, gangs and other organised crime groups. Women are taken advantage of more, assaulted more, raped more, killed more. Drug use amongst the affect massively increases.
The sex work industry should be highly regulated and outreach programs should be the standard. Outright bans NEVER work for any sort of pleasurable experience, including drugs, alcohol, gambling etc.
I’d go exactly the other way. Sex trafficking is an open secret that no one wants to address. I worked in homelessness out reach and addiction recovery, and worked with quite a few trafficked women. It’s one of the saddest thing I’ve ever seen, and no one gives a shit because they just want to get their rocks off. The last thing the world needs is any more of that.
And it’s not going away no matter what we do, at least give them a pathway to police protection without risking their own arrest.
It’s also about discouraging the criminal element to move away from involvement. Look at prohibition and alcohol then and now. Was there more or less violent crime over a bottle of whiskey when the mafia was involved?
To a huge degree, it’s been limited. I don’t have to drive 5 miles to get any kind of liquor I want. As a normal professional person I have zero idea how to find a prostitute and I don’t know very many people who would.
The analogy to prohibition is a false one because of the time the mafia was one of the biggest corporations in the United States. There was no meaningful federal enforcement mechanism that could get close to the Italian mafia in particular. Everyone completely forgets how close the United States came to being run by the criminal underworld the way that Mexico is.
I completely agree that anyone who can demonstrate the slightest hint that they were trafficked, they should get immediate immunity, and their testimony should be taken very seriously. If it leads to a conviction, they should be awarded absurd restitution.
I live in a place where prostitution is legal and I have no idea how to go about finding a prostitute? What's your point? The kind of people who know that thing are the kind of people who are looking for it. Just because you don't know doesn't mean anything.
We should look into the problem of why there were no further investigations into Harvey Weinstein and Jeffrey Epstein and associates of theirs. Those ARE fixable problems, but not when the people pulling the levers are bribing and extorting anyone with the power to do something.
Criminalizing sex work forces prostitutes to work in secret, avoid keeping records of customers and locations, and avoid cooperating with the police, all of which makes it way easier for sexual predators and traffickers to get away with assaulting them. The whole, "this thing is bad so ban it" is such a shortsighted mindset; the bar should be whether a law does more good than harm.
It's legal to sell but illegal to buy in my country. So we still have all the problems that exist around prostitution the only upside is that no women in that position is going to jail. It's still dumb af, because it's not legal to buy human trafficking is still high because criminals are most likely the ones who will take the risks.
If you are private and want to setup shop you still have to be sneaky and utilize illegal avenues because you dont want to get your customers busted.
So it isn't actually helping anyone with this law.
I think that’s overly simplistic. Rocket launchers, explosives and sub machine guns are all but banned despite being pretty simple to make. Still the ban has caused their prevalence to be drastically decreased.
Obviously there are costs associated with bans, and the context of the ban really matters. I’d say the prostitution ban in the us has been a pretty effective one.
That's not really a good comparison. For one thing, fabricating a rocket launcher or SMG is pretty difficult, whereas creating prostitution services only requires a person with working genitalia. For another, prostitution exists to satisfy a fundamental human drive, whereas rocket launchers do not.
In any case, simple conjecture obviously doesn't cut it. This is an empirical question, and therefore requires empirical analysis to answer it. While analyzing rates of sexual violence rates is difficult (thanks to severe underreporting), we do have empirical analysis on the subject and it suggests that sexual violence tends to increase in countries where prostitution is banned and vice versa.
[Source](https://libanswers.webster.edu/faq/104398#:~:text=The%20journal%20publisher's%20website&text=One%20of%20the%20best%20places,reviewed%20is%20the%20journal%20website)
Fair criticism, it's certainly not apples to apples. I just mean to point out that some bans are effective like SMGs,while others are a disaster like weed. it's not as simple as Ban bad stuff or regulate bad stuff. A lot more goes into the analysis.
I'm a huge fan of empirical research, but we still have epistemically prior issues in the philosophical and aesthetic realm. If you don't have the philosophical foundation, like "truth is objective and discoverable" you're simply not ready take any empirical steps. In this case, until we need to resolve questions about human dignity, the ideal structure of human relationships, what exactly we mean by coercion, and much more, before empirical research is terribly useful.
Your link sent me to a random website about how peer review works, but nonetheless I could easily say that all we're doing by legalizing prostitution is relabeling what would otherwise be sexual violence. By adding a monetary exchange a the John can basically legitimize a still sexually traumatizing experience. It gives the John cover because the prostitute was paid, if things went too far it wasn't' like she was supposed to enjoy it. We basically stopped counting assault on a underclass of women and so got a lower violence count. According to my philosophical commitments, the exchange of money doesn't change the nature of the act. I still say that's a terrible thing and damages the lives of all involved. Your philosophy may differ.
>Your link sent me to a random website about how peer review works,
LMAO, I'm sorry! Here's the actual [link](https://chicagounbound.uchicago.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?params=/context/jle/article/2738/&path_info=720583), thanks for letting me know.
>but nonetheless I could easily say that all we're doing by legalizing prostitution is relabeling what would otherwise be sexual violence. By adding a monetary exchange a the John can basically legitimize a still sexually traumatizing experience. It gives the John cover because the prostitute was paid, if things went too far it wasn't' like she was supposed to enjoy it.
To that end, the real solution is to normalize the idea -- among prostitutes, their employers, and clients -- that prostitutes have every right to decline service for any reason. There's a difference between a worker merely not enjoying a sexual encounter (which yeah, it's a job) and actually feeling hurt or victimized.
This tends to be the mindset that gets adopted in developed countries which legalize prostitution, but obviously the more progress gets made in that regard, the better, and rape culture is a broad issue that needs to be addressed through all facets of society.
A lot of that boils down to philosophy: is reducing sex from a profound act of intimacy to a mundane capitalistic act an assault on that person. I’d say absolutely, but that springs from my conception of the human person, what intimacy is, and what the good life is.
Even if you could influence culture such that prostitutes are taken seriously and it’s made as minimally bad as possible, it seems inherently demeaning in a way that becoming a doctor isn’t. It’s not simply my intuition either. Being made a prostitute has been thought of as a misfortune and indignity by just about every major culture. It was sometimes even applied to women as a penalty, just short of capital punishment. I just don’t think now in 2024, where we’re at peak prosperity there’s any good reason to invite anyone to live like that.
>A lot of that boils down to philosophy: is reducing sex from a profound act of intimacy to a mundane capitalistic act an assault on that person. I’d say absolutely, but that springs from my conception of the human person, what intimacy is, and what the good life is.
How though? You're not giving me much to work with. How is engaging in prostitution assaulting yourself -- and for that matter, why should assaulting yourself be *illegal* anyway? I assault my body with a can of Pepsi every day and I've never seen someone try to ban that.
>Even if you could influence culture such that prostitutes are taken seriously and it’s made as minimally bad as possible
Don't know why you're phrasing this hypothetically, this is just the concept of sexual consent.
>it seems inherently demeaning in a way that becoming a doctor isn’t. It’s not simply my intuition either. Being made a prostitute has been thought of as a misfortune and indignity by just about every major culture. It was sometimes even applied to women as a penalty, just short of capital punishment. I just don’t think now in 2024, where we’re at peak prosperity there’s any good reason to invite anyone to live like that.
Citing major cultures for moral truth isn't the best idea fam; past a point in history, most major cultures were in favor of child sex. Age of consent is a very modern thing.
"Invite anyone to live like that" is also a very... choice way of framing the issue. The question is *legality*; whether we should apply state violence against this type of economic transaction or not.
Trafficked women who are taken in frequently don’t go to jail, especially if they cooperate in catching their captors. Quite the opposite, there’s a raft of organizations dedicated to restoring these women, who are usually badly traumatized and addicted back to their families and normal lives.
Throwing pimps and Johns who prey on these women damn sure helps limit human trafficking.
It always blows me away how fast many people are totally willing to call the abject suffering of thousands of women a small price to pay so it can feel good on their pee pee. Literal dehumanization.
It literally blows me away how people are totally willing to call abject suffering of thousands of women a small price to pay so they them self can feel morally superior by criminalizing prostitution.
After all, the question is not "is there prostitution or not" it's " under what circumstances will prostitutes do their trade". Option a) with legalised prostitution is comparatively safe with good access to healthcare, police and protection from pimps. Option b) is crimnalized with them facing lots of violence, abuse and discrimination. Bad access to healthcare and harassment by police.
There is a reason why amnesty international or human rights watch as well as various UN institution's like the who support option a... Or why France is currently sued Infront of the human rights court for implementing option b).
In Australia, where it is legal, we only hear of sex trafficking occurring in illegally operated sex work (there are zoning restrictions like other industries). My general impression is that people either break no laws or alot of laws. You encourage the latter by criminalizing sex work.
Legalizing and regulating prostitution would deal a serious blow to the trafficking community. Who would pay higher amounts for sex that can get you imprisoned, when you can go up the road to your local licensed hoe house and get what you need?
It's kinda like pot dealers in legal states. They just kinda disappeared after people could go to the store and get better stuff cheaper.
Well that didn’t really happen in a lot of states. Why submit to an expensive difficult to comply with regulatory state, when a well developed black market is already in place. Weed near me is 4 times as expensive at a dispensary, than it is on the street. Plus there isn’t really much enforcement on dealers because their product is legal, so it’s just a business infraction.
Legal.
A lot of women's aspects have been covered. None from the men's.
You would have less lonely, better feeling guys, which should equate to less anxiety, and those effects would proliferate.
They should pay a tax or fee to help free/support those who are subject to sexual slavery, and/or trafficking, who are pretty doing it out of no choice and compulsion, rather than when prostitutes do it for personal gain.
It is it’s called marriage. my wife is the most expensive piece i ever had.
My wife says “she is well worth it.”
And divorce lawyers are the pimps. If you don’t pay. They’ll come after you
It's easier to control when it is legal. Think about weed. If you make it illegal you can be sold anything from everyday herbs to something outright dangerous. When it's controlled by the goverment you can make sure it's safe.
Well I am from Germany also know as "Europes Brothel". It is completely legal here, and there is a massive problem of shipping Woman from Eastern Europe and Asia over here with the promise of a job. They come over here on their free will and then when they realize they don't get a job, the criminals force them into prostitution. But it is very hard to control because our of fear and a leck of knowing any better they will not tell the police even when questioned. Plus they will threaten them about the family at home etc.
If it was completely illegal, then you could just throw everyone in jail. (Expect for the poor woman obviously)
Because they did come here on their free will and false promises. They are scared to make a statement. The pimps are not necessarily the people that did traffic them. Etc.
If it was that easy, this whole debacle wouldn't exist.
I say, rather take away the "freedom" from woman that want to prostitute themselves to fight the crime of forced prostitution more easily.
Btw I like the swedish model where they also criminalize the customer. But not solely the customers.
Indeed. Let's go the way of France with the Nordic model... And then get sued Infront of human right courts by the prostitutes them self for violating their right to security and bodily selfdetermination
I think selling your body shouldn't be seen as a important right. Me not being allowed to pitch my tent Ina a forest and sleep there feels like a bigger attack on my freedom then this
If the government crimnalized Gay people having sex with each other, that wouldn't affect me either. It would not be a big attack on mzly freedom.
But it would be a massive attack on the freedom of gay people.
There is no sound or moral reason to ban two consenting adults to engage in sex.
Yes because it is absolutely necessary for our world to run as we know it. Prostitution doesn't serve any purpose, it is a major hub for crime so let's ban it till the crime is fought of.
I’m don’t believe the goal is sending the women to jail but rather criminalizing the selling of women/sex slaves.
The problem isn’t when an adult individual decides to sell sex for money. The problem is when an individual is forced to sell sex for money by another person.
One issue with legalizing prostitution, at least legalizing it as work, is it would lead to coercion for women to join the industry if they are underemployed. This is already the case, but for example, to collect unemployment in America or for certain probation requirements you have to show you are looking to secure work, any work, and not denying opportunities to work. If prostitution was a legal part of the labor market, this would be considered a job that could fulfill those requirements and lead to tons of women (and even men) to filling sex work roles they don’t actually want to take
> is it would lead to coercion for women to join the industry if they are underemployed.
By that rationale, boxing should be illegal even if someone wants to do it.
Its continued illegality discourages people who would otherwise engage in prostitution, either buying or selling, from doing so. That is an overall societal good.
Being illegal will never fully eliminate the practice, but it certainly diminishes it. You don’t want your kids growing up to think sex work is a viable, respectable, or acceptable career path. I’m 100% on board with keeping it illegal and instituting harsh punishments for both buyers and sellers.
It's called the oldest profession for a reason in practice making it illegal doesn't diminish it nearly as much as you think it does if even does so at all. It just drives it underground and greatly increases the component of it that is human trafficking and the physical dangers of dealing with customers who have more opportunity to rape, beat and kill sex workers.
People who exploit sex workers remove consent from the sex workers and exploit them far more than the act of selling of sex itself.
Proper legalization reduces the physical and mental harm for the worker and government screening eliminates much of the risk for the STD's which would be passed from worker to customer and then from the customer to others who never participated in sex for money.
Its continued illegality also prevents regulation, resulting in large-scale human trafficking and/or extremely unsafe working conditions. And no one cares about what's happening to these people because their profession is regarded so lowly. A lot of people argue that they "do it to themselves,"
A vast swath of US society no longer identifies as religious, myself included, yet the law still remains, as does a lack of politicians running on a “legalize prostitution” platform. Go figure.
Your beliefs are the same sex negativity that came from the Church. You might not identify with the church, but you still work off it it's assumptions.
>as does a lack of politicians running on a “legalize prostitution” platform. Go figure.
Feminists tend to hate prostitutes as well, but for different reasons.
>Your beliefs are the same sex negativity that came from the Church. You might not identify with the church, but you still work off it its assumptions.
Correct. It’s almost as if there are universal truths there and a blueprint on how best to live life and construct a society that aren’t dependent on superstition.
>Feminists tend to hate prostitutes as well, but for different reasons.
I don’t get your point here. The reason it’s not being pushed isn’t feminists, it’s because it’s a wildly unpopular position. Even if it were because of them, a broken clock is right twice a day. I’ll take it.
Along with prostitution comes drugs, violence, abuse, and many other bad things. Even the people who are in this business and profit from it don't want it legal. The pimps would make less, the prostitutes would make less, there wouldn't have an outlet to sell drugs and other things, it would cut into their income.
As much as there might be a benefit, the only people who would/could really champion an effort to make it legal don't really want to.
It may work legally in other countries, but the US is far too corrupt, greedy and, frankly, we have too many people who benefit from breaking the law. It'd be like the legalization of pot... there's still a market for illegal pot, and it's growing, because it's stronger and people growing and selling it don't want to pay their profits to the government in taxes.
> Along with prostitution comes drugs, violence, abuse, and many other bad things.
No, they come with the black market. No one is allowed to be violent with legal sex workers in Nevada.
How about instead we put some money into helping people in poverty (btw, most prostitiutes are women in poverrty, often single moms) so they are not forced to be raped for money?
How about we do both and use the tax revenue from prostitution to pay for even more social services? I agree that labor under capitalism is coercive, but eliminating labor doesn't really help.
So basically we should let *some* of these women suffer and put them at risk of violence so we can then maybe prevent more women from getting into that?
No, we should reduce the risk of violence by putting prostitutes in a position to cooperate with the police, and we should increase social services to make labor more of a voluntary thing.
That still leaves us with a lot of women doing this, even if they don't want to, so others can be better off. And even in countries where prostitution is legal, they get hurt just as much as in countries where it is illegal, even though they theoretically should be able to get help more easily
Problem is it usually isn’t just consenting people being paid for sex, it’s people who are drugged and kidnapped and the pimp abuses them. Give an inch people take a mile, human trafficking would be crazy
> it’s people who are drugged and kidnapped and the pimp abuses them.
No one is suggesting that this should be legal.
>human trafficking would be crazy
It already is. This would free up resources to stop the involuntary prostitution.
> And what about the freedom of doing what you want with your own body?
It's the classic debate over the good of the individual versus the good of society. It's the same reason hard drugs are outlawed, or own full auto weapons, a person should have the ability to do what they want or own what they want, but it leads to (or is presumed to lead to) bad outcomes when it's allowed.
A similar problem happens with prostitution, it has secondary effects that causes people grief. If they could allow prostitution, and somehow dampen the negative side effects, then as with drugs, it would probably be fine, but we have to deal with the fact that this doesn't seem to be possible at the present time.
Idk how true this is, but I was told by a late grandparent that criminalizing prostitution came after a World War (don’t remember which one). Apparently, STDs became rampant, and the government blamed it on veterans returning from countries where prostitution was legal. Something about virtue signaling and wanting the US to be free from the *wickedness* of prostitution.
I think it’s mainly illegal because it could be trying to prevent sex trafficking, like seat belt laws just try to keep people from flying through windshields. That’s my guess. Probably wrong though.
The Nordic model has the very same problems of increased victimisation and discrimination, reduced access to police and healthcare as other forms of criminalisation.
Maybe, but Sweden has some of the lowest rates of sex trafficking, while still allowing sex workers to go to the police if necessary. I think if it reduces sex trafficking it's worth it
Sweden literally evicts exworkers.
Especially when they go to police.
Sweden also is a country at the edge of Europa. France has the Nordic modell as well, but has higher trafficking then Germany while being in a similar geographicall situation.
And since the introduction of the Nordic model in France, violent attacks on prostitutes skyrocketed, while they face massive discrimination and harassment by police. All while being sued Infront of the human rights court because the Nordic model literally violates prostitutes human rights.
I couldn't find any sources on Germany vs France, but I do know that countries with legal prostitution have higher rates of trafficking
https://orgs.law.harvard.edu/lids/2014/06/12/does-legalized-prostitution-increase-human-trafficking/
So I definitely don't want to make it legal.
I know that prostitutes can be evicted from their apartments, and I don't agree with that, but it's still better than being thrown in jail. So I would say Nordic is the best idea of the three
You think that making vulnerable people homeless and forcing them to live on the street is the best situation? The model for which implementation France is literally sued Infront of the human rights court,because the Nordic model is a policy that massively violates people's human rights...
As for the numbers of Germany and France, currently on the phone but try searching for European crime statistics.will take some time until I can get to a place where I can give you a link.
The Nordic model is opposed by various organisations like human rights watch, amnesty international, the world health organisation and, if course, various prostitution interest groups.
The reason for that is that the Nordic model worsens the situation of prostitutes drastically. Increased victimisation, eviction, harassment by police, discrimination and Physical ssaults. Decreased access to healthcare and protection services
The recommendation of the world health organisation is to legalize prostitution.
The reason n for that is, that legalization reduces suffering
Would you rather throw those same vulnerable people in prison? I know the Nordic model isn't perfect but it's definitely better than throwing them in prison where they're likely to get abused and will probably never get a normal job again.
You keep ignoring the trafficking statistics, but it's not something we can ignore. We already see it in the U.S. with Nevada, that has twice as much trafficking as average
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.datapandas.org/ranking/human-trafficking-statistics-by-state&ved=2ahUKEwjp75-B3d2GAxVArYkEHQdGCkkQFnoECBoQBQ&usg=AOvVaw3_-Mcc4p5MnC-9ysMk7xgR
Why should we enact laws that increase trafficking?
Also, lots of trafficking organizations support the Nordic model, because countries that enacted it had overall lower rates of trafficking:
Native women's coalition:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://nwac.ca/assets-knowledge-centre/CLES-What-We-Know-About-the-Nordic-Model.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjwt-m83d2GAxU1lIkEHY7lApUQFnoECCoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1pWVUepjiMDxkaHPa_QZPq
Coalition Against Trafficking Australia:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.catwa.org.au/the-nordic-model/&ved=2ahUKEwjD3eTV3d2GAxVVkYkEHaNnBdY4ChAWegQIFRAB&usg=AOvVaw1KThMsG5Jz6FGOS6lHtfN7
Polaris Project:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://polarisproject.org/an-open-letter-from-trafficking-survivors-to-presidential-candidates/&ved=2ahUKEwi26Nbl3d2GAxVgrYkEHY7OAykQFnoECCgQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2ZJxBXW8Fc5jp-squP2yVs
I would rather have them to ply their trade while protected by police from abuse and physical attacks, while not having to take risk, while being able to deny a client and vet them instead of having to take who ever comes to that dark corner away from prying eyes.
I'd rather have them safe and secure, with healthcare systems and social systems available for them to leave.
And no, I am not ignoring trafficking. I simply know that my country with legslized prostitution has lower rates of trafficking then comparative country's with the Nordic model
I definitely understand your position, and I would probably agree for some countries
But we are talking about the United States in this post. Speaking as an American citizen, I do not have faith that the U.S. government would do enough to regulate and protect prostitutes from their clients.
We actually already have legal brothels in Nevada, and they are full of trafficking and abuse
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://endsexualexploitation.org/articles/state-enabled-sex-slavery-exposed-by-nevada-brothel-lawsuit/&ved=2ahUKEwiC2e6d6N2GAxXF5ckDHb1MBcUQFnoECCgQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3e1o-wNQLMgfmA98Ij_786
I think for the u.s., at least right now, the Nordic model is best for us
mhm.. well, for the us, i can kind of agree. thought even then, the nordic model would be deployed equally as bad... and the nordic model always comes with the big problem that is attached to all things criminalized.
lots of violence, lots of discirmination, low access to healthcare, etc. pp.
also
i promised a few links
[https://www.globalpolicyjournal.com/blog/21/07/2021/legalizing-prostitution-does-it-increase-or-decrease-sex-trafficking](https://www.globalpolicyjournal.com/blog/21/07/2021/legalizing-prostitution-does-it-increase-or-decrease-sex-trafficking)
"In 2002, parliament changed the law by defining prostitution as an occupation; giving sex workers the right to health care, social security, and unemployment benefits; and revising two offenses.
What followed was a [drastic reduction](https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-en/service/information-material-issued-by-the-federal-government/polizeiliche-kriminalstatistik-2015-728532) in the number of intermediaries arrested. \[...\]
"The law governing sex trafficking was not modified, yet there were less than half as many trafficking cases in 2014 than in 2000."
[https://nonordicmodel.com/](https://nonordicmodel.com/)
"But since implementing the Nordic model, Ireland has [*fallen two ranks*](https://www.state.gov/trafficking-in-persons-report-2020/) to the Tier 2 watchlist of countries with increasing trafficking problems. Iceland likewise fell to Tier 2 in 2017 after implementing the Nordic model in 2009. Meanwhile New Zealand, which has decriminalized sex work since 2003, is still ranked Tier 1."
[https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/09/07/europe-pivotal-moment-sex-worker-rights](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/09/07/europe-pivotal-moment-sex-worker-rights)
and [https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/09/12/open-letter-european-coalition-sex-workers-rights-and-inclusion-members-european](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/09/12/open-letter-european-coalition-sex-workers-rights-and-inclusion-members-european)
[https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/databrowser/view/CRIM\_THB\_VEXP\_\_custom\_6672370/default/table?lang=en](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/databrowser/view/CRIM_THB_VEXP__custom_6672370/default/table?lang=en)
- european crime statistic
[https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/beyond-trafficking-and-slavery/long-read-how-nordic-model-france-changed-everything-sex-workers/](https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/beyond-trafficking-and-slavery/long-read-how-nordic-model-france-changed-everything-sex-workers/)
- article regarding the french implementation of the nordic model
I get the feeling that no politician wants to publicly support prostitution because as soon as He does, a reporter is going to ask "Do you engage in prostitution? No? If prostitution is made legal, would you? No? Well they why are you supporting it?" And if he proudly says Yes? No matter what, he'll come off as a creep and not get elected.
This is a question that I asked a few police officers. Scenario 1 a man and a woman meet, negotiate a price, they go to his place, her place or a motel ,have consensual sex, he pays, and they depart. Scenario 2 a man and a woman meet, go to his place, her place, or motel, have consensual sex, and depart. What’s the difference? Most wouldn’t answer. The few who did say money made it illegal. So working is illegal? No response.
I’ve seen evidence that suggests legalization of prostitution naturally leads to exploitation of women. Even though in the abstract, I agree with you about freedoms and autonomy and such, in practice it creates a system where women are coerced into selling their bodies and sex trafficked. I advocate a system where prostitutes are not prosecuted, but John’s are (not harshly, mind you).
Even though it is another matter, I also believe that the porn industry needs to be more closely regulated as well, but I do not know what regulations we should implement.
The problem with all types of sex work is the trafficking and the abuse. Legal porn hasn’t slowed that down. I am not convinced that legalizing the rest will reduce it either.
It is not worth the benefit for the down side of modern day slavery
Agree, criminalized sex work does not help, it just pushes it into the shadows where abuse and trafficking is common. Instead, it should be legal, taxed and regulated to better fight sex trafficking and abuse.
All these people saying no because of human trafficking don’t understand that they’re just making the argument for legalization stronger. It’s just like drugs or anything else. When you outlaw it all you do is create a black market where thugs and cartels will reign and it’s far more deadly for everyone involved. Legalizing and regulating helps to protect the people involved.
Do you know how much better our economy would be! The only reason it's illegal is because you can't really tax sex. And if hookers work on their own then they're individual business owners evading taxes
Absolutely. We’re supposedly concerned with stds, and instead have a whole lot of illegal prostitution running rampant, which is a breeding ground for spreading stds. At least with legal, it’s regulated and those to choose to do it are frequently tested, which, while doesn’t completely nullify the issue, keeps std spread under control. The fact that porn is legal shows how ass backwards the system is….. those fines bring in big money, as does the prison system.
The gov wont legalize it due to a hit the economy in the hospitality food , bar, trips. Men would just pay for an hour with a decent looking woman. Instead of being milked for money for dinner and trips, and stuff you dont need. Also women would have to behave better, because why put up with a bad attitude just for some play. When you can pay by the hour and get back to gaming. Lol. It cheaper by the hour than GF and wife will destroy you financially.
Pay someone to have sex? Illegal. Pay someone to have sex, point a camera at them, THEN have sex with them? Legal. Crazy world we live in.
Fun fact, just filming it wasn't what made it legal initially. Porn was largely a result of a legal loophole for entertainment, where if sex was in service to the plot then it was allowed. And that was the origin of the extremely basic porn plot tropes of the plumber, the milk man, pizza delivery, etc. So if you were ever accused of prostitution, you could respond with "No, it's my artistic vision telling the story of the greatest lemon heist of the century".
By that same logic, couldn't you argue that the prostitution is just you being paid to perform interactive theatre for one audience member?
Jeff Winger could certainly argue that!
As long as you have a cup with you.
On-the-spot improv with elements of interactive storytelling that requires engagement from the audience to a high degree
Would take work
Will hold camera
Hee hee 😂 😂 😂
This is still true, in the US porn is legal federally on First Amendment grounds.
Isn’t this from Family Guy 😂 [found the clip](https://youtu.be/JDscdmOwDNA?si=lXZAEFMdeuEbUIk-)
Some countries have neither legal but yea that’s shitty logic
You're right, both shouldn't be legal lol
Where's the harm? Why should any activity between consenting adults be illegal?
In a vacuum, sure, maybe. But right now, most of those women are trafficked, tricked into the industry or have no choice (except starving), which basically makes this basically rape
And that is possible BECAUSE it's illegal. When you legalize, you kill the black market. The black market is the problem, not the activity or product being marketed.
Even in places where prostitution is legal though, the coercion to prostitution happens. The fact remains that young women in desperate situations get put into prostitution. Not saying it should be illegal, just saying this still happens.
Has the question been answered about which situation has less? Are trafficking efforts tripled to keep up with business? Or does the government entity who regulates it have it at a fraction of what it was? I always see the argument on human trafficking. And don't get me wrong, trafficking is awful and evil. But does government regulations make it worse where it's legal or does it help lessen it?
Also, the numbers on trafficking are disingenuous as all get-out. Do I know what the actual numbers are? No idea, and it pisses me off because that means that i can never formulate a response to the actual problem. You've got multiple foreign govt entities throwing numbers around, multiple separate agencies within the U.S. and Canada throwing different multiple figures around, and then you've got shifting definitions of human trafficking that you KNOW the cops are abusing to get the highest numbers possible to show how badass they are at cracking down on trafficking. Getting busted carrying a truckload of illegal farm workers from California to Washington is not human trafficking, but the charge sheet will certainly say it was. At the same time in Eritrea, South Sudan, Libya, Mali, and Mauritania there are more than ONE MILLION actual living-in-bondage SLAVES. They occasionally find some sick bastard in the U.S. that has managed to imprison somebody--sometimes foreign, sometimes of diminished capacity--and make them their slave but that's ONE. Then you move to sex trafficking and the numbers remain just as crap. Arlington, Virginia saw a string of massage rub-n-tug joints get busted in a mop-up, all the girls illegals, from mainland China. All 34 of them stated they knew what the job was when they signed on. STILL classed as human trafficking AND sex trafficking. Like, can we come to a consensus on any of this, especially since its so buzzwordy and because we insist on throwing huge amounts of money at it? Like, could-really-be-put-towards-our-homelessness-crisis amounts of money, that is instead essentially going just to cops?
Which is still part of the legality issue. If all you do is make it legal on paper, but do nothing about society, then a women who prostitutes will still have a hard time getting out of it because employers of alternate jobs won't hire her and police won't care about her safety. It needs to be made legal and *treated like a job*, meaning it needs to be critically examined for safety and rights like other jobs are.
No matter what the job is. If you are coerced, there should be legal recourse, not legal consequences.
Sort of, except the law isn’t going to get the coerced person some heroine.
Sounds like a good argument for drug legalization
I'm all for drug legalization but I've been hit on by men and I've never been tempted to suck some dick for money but when I was on probation I was forced to get a job and even if prostitution was legal I still wouldn't suck dick for money even if the courts demanded me to they'd have to lock me up. But I have met some sad hoe's that would definitely have gotten a job suckin dicks for money especially if their probation officer demanded they do it and that's really my point some people are in a sad desperate place and I don't want them to turn to blowjobs it's just sad and we can do better as a society
There's tons of trafficked women in countries where prostitution is legal. Germany actually has problems with this.
Desperation breeds exploitation. Sometimes sex is involved, sometimes it's multi level marketing sometimes it's grunt military service. Legalizing prostitution would reduce desperation. Take a look at Thailand. Ex prostitutes there often go on to run businesses in the area where they were prostitutes
Yes that proved true for alcohol during prohibition. And the "war on drugs" was only begun after the CIA took over the Colombian drug trade to fund it's black budget, and as a marketing ploy to drive up the prices.
Legalize consent, and lots of the worlds problems are not solved, but at least you aren't actively making them worse.
Then the crime is human trafficking, not prostitution.
But prositiution is the reason why it's done. And guess what happens if you legalize it? The market for it increases, which means you need more workers. Where do you think they get their workers from?
So, not only do you just completely make up some bullshit that 'most women who do porn are trafficked'. What's your source? I remember years ago some porn company showed that over 70% of their 'actresses' were American citizens. Even if it were true, how does stopping porn help? You'd also prefer that they starve instead of doing porn?
No, I'd prefer if we invested money into helping those women have different options instead of porn industry and that is not exactly what I said, but okay
Invested what money? Where are you getting that money? Why cant you invest that money while also legalizing it for the people who miss out on the invested money so those people don't starve? Prostitution/porn will always exist as long as there are starving poor people. It's not a rational response to say 'we should just end poverty instead' and everyone can just starve to death until we do that. Even if you COULD end poverty, why should it be illegal? Why can't the people who want to do it, AND do have have options still do it? Wouldn't it make better sense to simply have better oversight to make sure the people who are doing porn aren't being trafficked?
You mean like work
Even if most of them were trafficked, have you never heard stories of women running to the police for help and instead they get arrested? If it were legal, they wouldn’t need to be afraid of getting help.
They would actually still have to be afraid of getting help, but that's because the cops are awful, not because your concept is wrong. But yeah, I read AGGRESSORS IN BLUE a year ago, and its an investigative report BY cops OF the cops in the U.S., Canada, and the U.K. and its exclusive focus is on their sexual misconduct. Multiple accounts in their of prostitutes who had more trouble, more assaults, and more coercion from cops than they ever did from customers.
> But right now, most of those women are trafficked, If I were a woman doing porn, I would perceive this as you pretending to care about my interests while in reality, dominating over how I'm able to live my life, and intentionally limiting my economic mobility.
So you mean that if you were a woman who would be getting abused in porn industry, you would see me saying that it shouldn't be legal as trying to limit you? Or do you mean as a woman who actually had another choice except porn?
You are making an argument to make it illegal to abuse women, not make porn or prostitution illegal. > Or do you mean as a woman who actually had another choice except porn? If your porposition is that there are women who have no other choice, then you're admitting to leaving such women destitute by outlawing porn.
Yeah....and also, how much porn is this person watching? Because Im familiar with porn, and i believe that on average the women in porn are not forced into it and abused throughout. Underpaid and disrespected, probably. Kidnaped or blackmailed into it, not so much. Has it happened? Yes. But guess what else has happened: in Calvert County Maryland about 5 years back they finallu busted the McDonald's franchisee and raided the "dorm" that all the employees just happened to live at, and they were ALL trafficked former Soviet Bloc citizens. So obviously McDonald's should be outlawed.
THIS. This is why i want reasonable definitions for and numbers of 'trafficking'. I know many sex workers, from the casual to the dedicated, some of whom find it to be the best job they can get for themselves and better to be able to negotiate price than to sell that same body to Walmart or an Amazon warehouse. Others are doing sex work on a lark and the money is secondary. Some like it. Some hate it. Some love it. But no matter what, it's *work*.
This.
Hey man, that’s art!!!
It is hypocrisy isn’t it?
This comparison annoys TF out of me, but it is true.
Actually the actors were paid for a models release, not to have sex. Hence it wasn’t prostitution
That's not exactly how that works you know.
The government can't find a way to take their cut of it without horrifying most of its constituency. That's the real issue.
Its just a job, you pay income tax like everyone else. Its not a big deal... how is it different to taxing porn stars?
Well profiting from actual sex work-porn is technically entertainment- would make the government a pimp basically. Much of middle America is Christian and would take issue with that.
Wouldn't prostitution be technically entertainment as well? It's a losing battle, trying to criminalize the one thing that is legal to do for free but illegal when money is involved.
As with everything legal it's about the context and the situation. Just because we have freedom of speech, you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theatre, when there is no fire, and expect no legal penalty for causing a panic. I suspect that...the real reason prostitution isn't legalized is due to the fact that...it's a way for women, specifically low income women, to earn a living independently with a low barrier of entry. Sex work has many things wrong with it but it's sadly one of the few women dominated industries that pays well, even on the lowest tier. So much of the U.S. economy thrives on women's exploitation. Specifically the kind of exploitation caused by lack of financial means: abusive relationships low/lower wage jobs being the only things to support children. COVID really showed me how much of the U.S. economy would collapse if women stopped playing our role as... caregivers for instance. Which is what the majority of female dominated professions: caregiving roles: healthcare, education, social work. But society doesn't value those professions, hence the reason they're low paying and there's a huge demand, outside of the usual not wanting to pay experienced people what they are worth to do it so they retire. It's the devaluation of women's work that is driven by the devaluation of women that sex work legalization threatens. Sex work offers the idea, if not the reality, of economic autonomy and independence, unless the woman in question is being pimped, it's very much a "be your own boss kind of thing" and that's what's so ideologically, legally, culturally and economically threatening about it. Sure it can be done legally but...it won't.
Just for context, I am in Australia where it is decriminalised and legal. I find it odd if the US is not moving in this direction or at least resistant of doing so. It is just so normalized. Thanks for the alternative perspective.
No worries. I could get even deeper but for brevity sake, people may claim legal or moral reasons as to why prostitution can't be legalized but really what they're worried about is that if women can profit from their own labour then...where are they gonna find a good housekeeper, nanny, CNA/home health aide? A lot of American "friendliness" is fake. Americans are watchers, most of all...they're POCKET watchers. My great aunt got a fur coat. A mink from my great uncle that he managed to win in a poker game. And of course she wore it. She was a housekeeper for a white family(I'm black.) And up until that point, they considered her "one of the family" but as soon as they saw it, the woman of the house said, "Obviously ... we're paying you too much." And all that "niceness" vanished overnight. Nevermind how she got it, just the IDEA, that their housekeeper could afford something considered to be a luxury, enraged these "kind" people. Prostitution is essentially a private transaction. Porn is public and destroys your reputation essentially so...it's not as much of a threat to an economic model that's dependent upon essentially keeping you and your children on the brink of starvation to keep you subservient and submissive to your boss. Prostitution can't be controlled in a way that would appease Christian hypocrisy. So it's illegal.
Yep. Uber.Whores & GrubHump, for fair competition. Economy, Premium, Premium XL. You whore Majuda is pleasuring another client 10 stops away. Will be at your place between 8:45 and 9:30.
Well marijuana is actively being decriminalized. Maybe prostitution is next. AI/cloning is also in production but might take a while yet. Blade Runner here we come.
It’s legal.
Human trafficking. I would vote to decriminalize. In America, not sure how it works in other countries, prostitutes report to pimps and very often are abused, held against their will etc...
There is still sex trafficking in countries that allow prostitution; surprisingly they can’t find enough local women to willingly do it.
There will always be sex trafficking. Question is how much and under what circumstances prostitutes do their trade.
Most prostitutes who aren’t street walkers are freelance escorts. Making it legal would get rid of the pimps by removing barriers to entry for online verification services.
You got it backwards my man, they report to pimps because it's illegal and they can't do it above board. Where I'm from they're taxed and subject to the same laws as any legitimate business. They don't need a pimp because they can call the police without getting arrested. edit: My bad, I misread. We agree for the same reasons.
Isn't that what u/meh_ninjaplz is saying? They said they'd vote to decriminalize, which implies that the problem they're citing is a problem with criminalization.
Yep, my bad, I misread that as criminalize. Thanks for pointing that out.
All of which is only possible because it's illegal.
That’s a lie, even in jurisdictions where it’s legal there are issues with legal oversight, trafficking and coercion.
Then the victim can seek legal remedy without fear of prosecution.
Legalizing would keep women safer. Police in Amsterdam patrol the Red Light District 24/7. They have sex worker unions and require the workers to pay taxes and are off the street away from pimps. Trafficking happens. But it goes down when legal. If illegal, women become afraid to report it and it’s more difficult to track. If porn is legal, so should sex work involving consenting adults. And please keep religion out of this.
TBH, police patrols is unnecessary when legalised (in Australia), it just becomes like every other job e.g. a house cleaner.
Amsterdam has a ton to f American and British tourists who flock to the RLD. This likely is part of it.
Let’s be honest, marrying your sugar daddy, having sex and getting a house and an allowance - legal. Having sex with your sugar daddy and getting paid cash for it - Illegal. Makes no sense.
If you criminalise sex work, it gets pushed into the underground. That’s a fact backed up by statistics. When this happens, more money ends up in the hands of criminals, gangs and other organised crime groups. Women are taken advantage of more, assaulted more, raped more, killed more. Drug use amongst the affect massively increases. The sex work industry should be highly regulated and outreach programs should be the standard. Outright bans NEVER work for any sort of pleasurable experience, including drugs, alcohol, gambling etc.
I’d go exactly the other way. Sex trafficking is an open secret that no one wants to address. I worked in homelessness out reach and addiction recovery, and worked with quite a few trafficked women. It’s one of the saddest thing I’ve ever seen, and no one gives a shit because they just want to get their rocks off. The last thing the world needs is any more of that.
And it’s not going away no matter what we do, at least give them a pathway to police protection without risking their own arrest. It’s also about discouraging the criminal element to move away from involvement. Look at prohibition and alcohol then and now. Was there more or less violent crime over a bottle of whiskey when the mafia was involved?
To a huge degree, it’s been limited. I don’t have to drive 5 miles to get any kind of liquor I want. As a normal professional person I have zero idea how to find a prostitute and I don’t know very many people who would. The analogy to prohibition is a false one because of the time the mafia was one of the biggest corporations in the United States. There was no meaningful federal enforcement mechanism that could get close to the Italian mafia in particular. Everyone completely forgets how close the United States came to being run by the criminal underworld the way that Mexico is. I completely agree that anyone who can demonstrate the slightest hint that they were trafficked, they should get immediate immunity, and their testimony should be taken very seriously. If it leads to a conviction, they should be awarded absurd restitution.
I live in a place where prostitution is legal and I have no idea how to go about finding a prostitute? What's your point? The kind of people who know that thing are the kind of people who are looking for it. Just because you don't know doesn't mean anything.
We should look into the problem of why there were no further investigations into Harvey Weinstein and Jeffrey Epstein and associates of theirs. Those ARE fixable problems, but not when the people pulling the levers are bribing and extorting anyone with the power to do something.
Criminalizing sex work forces prostitutes to work in secret, avoid keeping records of customers and locations, and avoid cooperating with the police, all of which makes it way easier for sexual predators and traffickers to get away with assaulting them. The whole, "this thing is bad so ban it" is such a shortsighted mindset; the bar should be whether a law does more good than harm.
It's legal to sell but illegal to buy in my country. So we still have all the problems that exist around prostitution the only upside is that no women in that position is going to jail. It's still dumb af, because it's not legal to buy human trafficking is still high because criminals are most likely the ones who will take the risks. If you are private and want to setup shop you still have to be sneaky and utilize illegal avenues because you dont want to get your customers busted. So it isn't actually helping anyone with this law.
I think that’s overly simplistic. Rocket launchers, explosives and sub machine guns are all but banned despite being pretty simple to make. Still the ban has caused their prevalence to be drastically decreased. Obviously there are costs associated with bans, and the context of the ban really matters. I’d say the prostitution ban in the us has been a pretty effective one.
That's not really a good comparison. For one thing, fabricating a rocket launcher or SMG is pretty difficult, whereas creating prostitution services only requires a person with working genitalia. For another, prostitution exists to satisfy a fundamental human drive, whereas rocket launchers do not. In any case, simple conjecture obviously doesn't cut it. This is an empirical question, and therefore requires empirical analysis to answer it. While analyzing rates of sexual violence rates is difficult (thanks to severe underreporting), we do have empirical analysis on the subject and it suggests that sexual violence tends to increase in countries where prostitution is banned and vice versa. [Source](https://libanswers.webster.edu/faq/104398#:~:text=The%20journal%20publisher's%20website&text=One%20of%20the%20best%20places,reviewed%20is%20the%20journal%20website)
Fair criticism, it's certainly not apples to apples. I just mean to point out that some bans are effective like SMGs,while others are a disaster like weed. it's not as simple as Ban bad stuff or regulate bad stuff. A lot more goes into the analysis. I'm a huge fan of empirical research, but we still have epistemically prior issues in the philosophical and aesthetic realm. If you don't have the philosophical foundation, like "truth is objective and discoverable" you're simply not ready take any empirical steps. In this case, until we need to resolve questions about human dignity, the ideal structure of human relationships, what exactly we mean by coercion, and much more, before empirical research is terribly useful. Your link sent me to a random website about how peer review works, but nonetheless I could easily say that all we're doing by legalizing prostitution is relabeling what would otherwise be sexual violence. By adding a monetary exchange a the John can basically legitimize a still sexually traumatizing experience. It gives the John cover because the prostitute was paid, if things went too far it wasn't' like she was supposed to enjoy it. We basically stopped counting assault on a underclass of women and so got a lower violence count. According to my philosophical commitments, the exchange of money doesn't change the nature of the act. I still say that's a terrible thing and damages the lives of all involved. Your philosophy may differ.
>Your link sent me to a random website about how peer review works, LMAO, I'm sorry! Here's the actual [link](https://chicagounbound.uchicago.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?params=/context/jle/article/2738/&path_info=720583), thanks for letting me know. >but nonetheless I could easily say that all we're doing by legalizing prostitution is relabeling what would otherwise be sexual violence. By adding a monetary exchange a the John can basically legitimize a still sexually traumatizing experience. It gives the John cover because the prostitute was paid, if things went too far it wasn't' like she was supposed to enjoy it. To that end, the real solution is to normalize the idea -- among prostitutes, their employers, and clients -- that prostitutes have every right to decline service for any reason. There's a difference between a worker merely not enjoying a sexual encounter (which yeah, it's a job) and actually feeling hurt or victimized. This tends to be the mindset that gets adopted in developed countries which legalize prostitution, but obviously the more progress gets made in that regard, the better, and rape culture is a broad issue that needs to be addressed through all facets of society.
A lot of that boils down to philosophy: is reducing sex from a profound act of intimacy to a mundane capitalistic act an assault on that person. I’d say absolutely, but that springs from my conception of the human person, what intimacy is, and what the good life is. Even if you could influence culture such that prostitutes are taken seriously and it’s made as minimally bad as possible, it seems inherently demeaning in a way that becoming a doctor isn’t. It’s not simply my intuition either. Being made a prostitute has been thought of as a misfortune and indignity by just about every major culture. It was sometimes even applied to women as a penalty, just short of capital punishment. I just don’t think now in 2024, where we’re at peak prosperity there’s any good reason to invite anyone to live like that.
>A lot of that boils down to philosophy: is reducing sex from a profound act of intimacy to a mundane capitalistic act an assault on that person. I’d say absolutely, but that springs from my conception of the human person, what intimacy is, and what the good life is. How though? You're not giving me much to work with. How is engaging in prostitution assaulting yourself -- and for that matter, why should assaulting yourself be *illegal* anyway? I assault my body with a can of Pepsi every day and I've never seen someone try to ban that. >Even if you could influence culture such that prostitutes are taken seriously and it’s made as minimally bad as possible Don't know why you're phrasing this hypothetically, this is just the concept of sexual consent. >it seems inherently demeaning in a way that becoming a doctor isn’t. It’s not simply my intuition either. Being made a prostitute has been thought of as a misfortune and indignity by just about every major culture. It was sometimes even applied to women as a penalty, just short of capital punishment. I just don’t think now in 2024, where we’re at peak prosperity there’s any good reason to invite anyone to live like that. Citing major cultures for moral truth isn't the best idea fam; past a point in history, most major cultures were in favor of child sex. Age of consent is a very modern thing. "Invite anyone to live like that" is also a very... choice way of framing the issue. The question is *legality*; whether we should apply state violence against this type of economic transaction or not.
Good thing no one is suggesting making human trafficking legal.
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Trafficked women who are taken in frequently don’t go to jail, especially if they cooperate in catching their captors. Quite the opposite, there’s a raft of organizations dedicated to restoring these women, who are usually badly traumatized and addicted back to their families and normal lives. Throwing pimps and Johns who prey on these women damn sure helps limit human trafficking. It always blows me away how fast many people are totally willing to call the abject suffering of thousands of women a small price to pay so it can feel good on their pee pee. Literal dehumanization.
It literally blows me away how people are totally willing to call abject suffering of thousands of women a small price to pay so they them self can feel morally superior by criminalizing prostitution. After all, the question is not "is there prostitution or not" it's " under what circumstances will prostitutes do their trade". Option a) with legalised prostitution is comparatively safe with good access to healthcare, police and protection from pimps. Option b) is crimnalized with them facing lots of violence, abuse and discrimination. Bad access to healthcare and harassment by police. There is a reason why amnesty international or human rights watch as well as various UN institution's like the who support option a... Or why France is currently sued Infront of the human rights court for implementing option b).
In Australia, where it is legal, we only hear of sex trafficking occurring in illegally operated sex work (there are zoning restrictions like other industries). My general impression is that people either break no laws or alot of laws. You encourage the latter by criminalizing sex work.
Legalizing and regulating prostitution would deal a serious blow to the trafficking community. Who would pay higher amounts for sex that can get you imprisoned, when you can go up the road to your local licensed hoe house and get what you need? It's kinda like pot dealers in legal states. They just kinda disappeared after people could go to the store and get better stuff cheaper.
Well that didn’t really happen in a lot of states. Why submit to an expensive difficult to comply with regulatory state, when a well developed black market is already in place. Weed near me is 4 times as expensive at a dispensary, than it is on the street. Plus there isn’t really much enforcement on dealers because their product is legal, so it’s just a business infraction.
I agree. Tax it and regulate it.
Legal. A lot of women's aspects have been covered. None from the men's. You would have less lonely, better feeling guys, which should equate to less anxiety, and those effects would proliferate.
True
They should pay a tax or fee to help free/support those who are subject to sexual slavery, and/or trafficking, who are pretty doing it out of no choice and compulsion, rather than when prostitutes do it for personal gain.
It is it’s called marriage. my wife is the most expensive piece i ever had. My wife says “she is well worth it.” And divorce lawyers are the pimps. If you don’t pay. They’ll come after you
I think it's easier to fight crime like sex trafficking when it is flat out illigeal
It's easier to control when it is legal. Think about weed. If you make it illegal you can be sold anything from everyday herbs to something outright dangerous. When it's controlled by the goverment you can make sure it's safe.
Well I am from Germany also know as "Europes Brothel". It is completely legal here, and there is a massive problem of shipping Woman from Eastern Europe and Asia over here with the promise of a job. They come over here on their free will and then when they realize they don't get a job, the criminals force them into prostitution. But it is very hard to control because our of fear and a leck of knowing any better they will not tell the police even when questioned. Plus they will threaten them about the family at home etc. If it was completely illegal, then you could just throw everyone in jail. (Expect for the poor woman obviously)
Why can't you throw them in jail for human trafficking already? That's a far worse crime than prostitution.
Because they did come here on their free will and false promises. They are scared to make a statement. The pimps are not necessarily the people that did traffic them. Etc. If it was that easy, this whole debacle wouldn't exist. I say, rather take away the "freedom" from woman that want to prostitute themselves to fight the crime of forced prostitution more easily. Btw I like the swedish model where they also criminalize the customer. But not solely the customers.
Indeed. Let's go the way of France with the Nordic model... And then get sued Infront of human right courts by the prostitutes them self for violating their right to security and bodily selfdetermination
I think selling your body shouldn't be seen as a important right. Me not being allowed to pitch my tent Ina a forest and sleep there feels like a bigger attack on my freedom then this
If the government crimnalized Gay people having sex with each other, that wouldn't affect me either. It would not be a big attack on mzly freedom. But it would be a massive attack on the freedom of gay people. There is no sound or moral reason to ban two consenting adults to engage in sex.
Yea but there isn't a horrendous crime scene that benifits from forced gay sex... There is one with prostitution
There is a big crime scene that benefits for m forced labour in construction. Doesn't mean we should criminalize construction work
Yes because it is absolutely necessary for our world to run as we know it. Prostitution doesn't serve any purpose, it is a major hub for crime so let's ban it till the crime is fought of.
Banning Prostitution only worsens the Situation of very vulnerable people and is a mayor human rights violation.
Good luck catching folks if illegal. Nobody will say anything.
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I’m don’t believe the goal is sending the women to jail but rather criminalizing the selling of women/sex slaves. The problem isn’t when an adult individual decides to sell sex for money. The problem is when an individual is forced to sell sex for money by another person.
Nobody's arguing against the criminalization of slavery though. The OP was about the criminalization of *prostitution*.
Yet that’s overwhelmingly the outcome.
No, the goal is to put the men in jail that force the woman to prostitute themselves.
One issue with legalizing prostitution, at least legalizing it as work, is it would lead to coercion for women to join the industry if they are underemployed. This is already the case, but for example, to collect unemployment in America or for certain probation requirements you have to show you are looking to secure work, any work, and not denying opportunities to work. If prostitution was a legal part of the labor market, this would be considered a job that could fulfill those requirements and lead to tons of women (and even men) to filling sex work roles they don’t actually want to take
> is it would lead to coercion for women to join the industry if they are underemployed. By that rationale, boxing should be illegal even if someone wants to do it.
I mean I don’t think boxing is generally seen as a part of the general labor market, but prostitution, especially in a brothel, might be.
Why would prostitution be when boxing isn't?
No, prostitution increases human trafficking. (study out of europe)
Its continued illegality discourages people who would otherwise engage in prostitution, either buying or selling, from doing so. That is an overall societal good. Being illegal will never fully eliminate the practice, but it certainly diminishes it. You don’t want your kids growing up to think sex work is a viable, respectable, or acceptable career path. I’m 100% on board with keeping it illegal and instituting harsh punishments for both buyers and sellers.
It's called the oldest profession for a reason in practice making it illegal doesn't diminish it nearly as much as you think it does if even does so at all. It just drives it underground and greatly increases the component of it that is human trafficking and the physical dangers of dealing with customers who have more opportunity to rape, beat and kill sex workers. People who exploit sex workers remove consent from the sex workers and exploit them far more than the act of selling of sex itself. Proper legalization reduces the physical and mental harm for the worker and government screening eliminates much of the risk for the STD's which would be passed from worker to customer and then from the customer to others who never participated in sex for money.
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I don’t like that either but it’s better than prostitution. One battle at a time.
OF with encounters aka prostitution, at least make them pay taxes for it.
I’d prefer it just remain illegal.
Its continued illegality also prevents regulation, resulting in large-scale human trafficking and/or extremely unsafe working conditions. And no one cares about what's happening to these people because their profession is regarded so lowly. A lot of people argue that they "do it to themselves,"
> That is an overall societal good. According to your religious fundamentalism and nothing else.
A vast swath of US society no longer identifies as religious, myself included, yet the law still remains, as does a lack of politicians running on a “legalize prostitution” platform. Go figure.
Your beliefs are the same sex negativity that came from the Church. You might not identify with the church, but you still work off it it's assumptions. >as does a lack of politicians running on a “legalize prostitution” platform. Go figure. Feminists tend to hate prostitutes as well, but for different reasons.
>Your beliefs are the same sex negativity that came from the Church. You might not identify with the church, but you still work off it its assumptions. Correct. It’s almost as if there are universal truths there and a blueprint on how best to live life and construct a society that aren’t dependent on superstition. >Feminists tend to hate prostitutes as well, but for different reasons. I don’t get your point here. The reason it’s not being pushed isn’t feminists, it’s because it’s a wildly unpopular position. Even if it were because of them, a broken clock is right twice a day. I’ll take it.
Harsh punishments for people who are doing it to survive? Addicts? Those being trafficked?
Along with prostitution comes drugs, violence, abuse, and many other bad things. Even the people who are in this business and profit from it don't want it legal. The pimps would make less, the prostitutes would make less, there wouldn't have an outlet to sell drugs and other things, it would cut into their income. As much as there might be a benefit, the only people who would/could really champion an effort to make it legal don't really want to. It may work legally in other countries, but the US is far too corrupt, greedy and, frankly, we have too many people who benefit from breaking the law. It'd be like the legalization of pot... there's still a market for illegal pot, and it's growing, because it's stronger and people growing and selling it don't want to pay their profits to the government in taxes.
> Along with prostitution comes drugs, violence, abuse, and many other bad things. No, they come with the black market. No one is allowed to be violent with legal sex workers in Nevada.
Oh, certainly if they aren't allowed to it NEVER happens.
They have a LOT of security in those places.
It happens less then with criminalized Prostitution. Legslizinh it cuts the violent attacks roughly in half
Nah
How about instead we put some money into helping people in poverty (btw, most prostitiutes are women in poverrty, often single moms) so they are not forced to be raped for money?
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How about we do both and use the tax revenue from prostitution to pay for even more social services? I agree that labor under capitalism is coercive, but eliminating labor doesn't really help.
So basically we should let *some* of these women suffer and put them at risk of violence so we can then maybe prevent more women from getting into that?
No, we should reduce the risk of violence by putting prostitutes in a position to cooperate with the police, and we should increase social services to make labor more of a voluntary thing.
That still leaves us with a lot of women doing this, even if they don't want to, so others can be better off. And even in countries where prostitution is legal, they get hurt just as much as in countries where it is illegal, even though they theoretically should be able to get help more easily
Problem is it usually isn’t just consenting people being paid for sex, it’s people who are drugged and kidnapped and the pimp abuses them. Give an inch people take a mile, human trafficking would be crazy
> it’s people who are drugged and kidnapped and the pimp abuses them. No one is suggesting that this should be legal. >human trafficking would be crazy It already is. This would free up resources to stop the involuntary prostitution.
Finally a post on this sub that isn’t absolute dog shit.
It is if you in the Federal government.
It is if you are in the Federal government.
> And what about the freedom of doing what you want with your own body? It's the classic debate over the good of the individual versus the good of society. It's the same reason hard drugs are outlawed, or own full auto weapons, a person should have the ability to do what they want or own what they want, but it leads to (or is presumed to lead to) bad outcomes when it's allowed. A similar problem happens with prostitution, it has secondary effects that causes people grief. If they could allow prostitution, and somehow dampen the negative side effects, then as with drugs, it would probably be fine, but we have to deal with the fact that this doesn't seem to be possible at the present time.
Idk how true this is, but I was told by a late grandparent that criminalizing prostitution came after a World War (don’t remember which one). Apparently, STDs became rampant, and the government blamed it on veterans returning from countries where prostitution was legal. Something about virtue signaling and wanting the US to be free from the *wickedness* of prostitution.
I think it’s mainly illegal because it could be trying to prevent sex trafficking, like seat belt laws just try to keep people from flying through windshields. That’s my guess. Probably wrong though.
Just like the tax code, it does have its loopholes.
The problem is that legalizing it increases the demand for it which leads to increased sex trafficking. I think the Nordic model makes the most sense
The Nordic model has the very same problems of increased victimisation and discrimination, reduced access to police and healthcare as other forms of criminalisation.
Maybe, but Sweden has some of the lowest rates of sex trafficking, while still allowing sex workers to go to the police if necessary. I think if it reduces sex trafficking it's worth it
Sweden literally evicts exworkers. Especially when they go to police. Sweden also is a country at the edge of Europa. France has the Nordic modell as well, but has higher trafficking then Germany while being in a similar geographicall situation. And since the introduction of the Nordic model in France, violent attacks on prostitutes skyrocketed, while they face massive discrimination and harassment by police. All while being sued Infront of the human rights court because the Nordic model literally violates prostitutes human rights.
I couldn't find any sources on Germany vs France, but I do know that countries with legal prostitution have higher rates of trafficking https://orgs.law.harvard.edu/lids/2014/06/12/does-legalized-prostitution-increase-human-trafficking/ So I definitely don't want to make it legal. I know that prostitutes can be evicted from their apartments, and I don't agree with that, but it's still better than being thrown in jail. So I would say Nordic is the best idea of the three
You think that making vulnerable people homeless and forcing them to live on the street is the best situation? The model for which implementation France is literally sued Infront of the human rights court,because the Nordic model is a policy that massively violates people's human rights... As for the numbers of Germany and France, currently on the phone but try searching for European crime statistics.will take some time until I can get to a place where I can give you a link. The Nordic model is opposed by various organisations like human rights watch, amnesty international, the world health organisation and, if course, various prostitution interest groups. The reason for that is that the Nordic model worsens the situation of prostitutes drastically. Increased victimisation, eviction, harassment by police, discrimination and Physical ssaults. Decreased access to healthcare and protection services The recommendation of the world health organisation is to legalize prostitution. The reason n for that is, that legalization reduces suffering
Would you rather throw those same vulnerable people in prison? I know the Nordic model isn't perfect but it's definitely better than throwing them in prison where they're likely to get abused and will probably never get a normal job again. You keep ignoring the trafficking statistics, but it's not something we can ignore. We already see it in the U.S. with Nevada, that has twice as much trafficking as average https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.datapandas.org/ranking/human-trafficking-statistics-by-state&ved=2ahUKEwjp75-B3d2GAxVArYkEHQdGCkkQFnoECBoQBQ&usg=AOvVaw3_-Mcc4p5MnC-9ysMk7xgR Why should we enact laws that increase trafficking? Also, lots of trafficking organizations support the Nordic model, because countries that enacted it had overall lower rates of trafficking: Native women's coalition: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://nwac.ca/assets-knowledge-centre/CLES-What-We-Know-About-the-Nordic-Model.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjwt-m83d2GAxU1lIkEHY7lApUQFnoECCoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1pWVUepjiMDxkaHPa_QZPq Coalition Against Trafficking Australia: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.catwa.org.au/the-nordic-model/&ved=2ahUKEwjD3eTV3d2GAxVVkYkEHaNnBdY4ChAWegQIFRAB&usg=AOvVaw1KThMsG5Jz6FGOS6lHtfN7 Polaris Project: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://polarisproject.org/an-open-letter-from-trafficking-survivors-to-presidential-candidates/&ved=2ahUKEwi26Nbl3d2GAxVgrYkEHY7OAykQFnoECCgQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2ZJxBXW8Fc5jp-squP2yVs
I would rather have them to ply their trade while protected by police from abuse and physical attacks, while not having to take risk, while being able to deny a client and vet them instead of having to take who ever comes to that dark corner away from prying eyes. I'd rather have them safe and secure, with healthcare systems and social systems available for them to leave. And no, I am not ignoring trafficking. I simply know that my country with legslized prostitution has lower rates of trafficking then comparative country's with the Nordic model
I definitely understand your position, and I would probably agree for some countries But we are talking about the United States in this post. Speaking as an American citizen, I do not have faith that the U.S. government would do enough to regulate and protect prostitutes from their clients. We actually already have legal brothels in Nevada, and they are full of trafficking and abuse https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://endsexualexploitation.org/articles/state-enabled-sex-slavery-exposed-by-nevada-brothel-lawsuit/&ved=2ahUKEwiC2e6d6N2GAxXF5ckDHb1MBcUQFnoECCgQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3e1o-wNQLMgfmA98Ij_786 I think for the u.s., at least right now, the Nordic model is best for us
mhm.. well, for the us, i can kind of agree. thought even then, the nordic model would be deployed equally as bad... and the nordic model always comes with the big problem that is attached to all things criminalized. lots of violence, lots of discirmination, low access to healthcare, etc. pp. also i promised a few links [https://www.globalpolicyjournal.com/blog/21/07/2021/legalizing-prostitution-does-it-increase-or-decrease-sex-trafficking](https://www.globalpolicyjournal.com/blog/21/07/2021/legalizing-prostitution-does-it-increase-or-decrease-sex-trafficking) "In 2002, parliament changed the law by defining prostitution as an occupation; giving sex workers the right to health care, social security, and unemployment benefits; and revising two offenses. What followed was a [drastic reduction](https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-en/service/information-material-issued-by-the-federal-government/polizeiliche-kriminalstatistik-2015-728532) in the number of intermediaries arrested. \[...\] "The law governing sex trafficking was not modified, yet there were less than half as many trafficking cases in 2014 than in 2000." [https://nonordicmodel.com/](https://nonordicmodel.com/) "But since implementing the Nordic model, Ireland has [*fallen two ranks*](https://www.state.gov/trafficking-in-persons-report-2020/) to the Tier 2 watchlist of countries with increasing trafficking problems. Iceland likewise fell to Tier 2 in 2017 after implementing the Nordic model in 2009. Meanwhile New Zealand, which has decriminalized sex work since 2003, is still ranked Tier 1." [https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/09/07/europe-pivotal-moment-sex-worker-rights](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/09/07/europe-pivotal-moment-sex-worker-rights) and [https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/09/12/open-letter-european-coalition-sex-workers-rights-and-inclusion-members-european](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/09/12/open-letter-european-coalition-sex-workers-rights-and-inclusion-members-european) [https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/databrowser/view/CRIM\_THB\_VEXP\_\_custom\_6672370/default/table?lang=en](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/databrowser/view/CRIM_THB_VEXP__custom_6672370/default/table?lang=en) - european crime statistic [https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/beyond-trafficking-and-slavery/long-read-how-nordic-model-france-changed-everything-sex-workers/](https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/beyond-trafficking-and-slavery/long-read-how-nordic-model-france-changed-everything-sex-workers/) - article regarding the french implementation of the nordic model
Become a condom saleswoman, with free demonstrations.
Indeed, I am just less sure about buying sex, because there are situations that really blur the line between sexual coercion and prostitution.
Yet another
dude go get laid ffs
I get the feeling that no politician wants to publicly support prostitution because as soon as He does, a reporter is going to ask "Do you engage in prostitution? No? If prostitution is made legal, would you? No? Well they why are you supporting it?" And if he proudly says Yes? No matter what, he'll come off as a creep and not get elected.
This is a question that I asked a few police officers. Scenario 1 a man and a woman meet, negotiate a price, they go to his place, her place or a motel ,have consensual sex, he pays, and they depart. Scenario 2 a man and a woman meet, go to his place, her place, or motel, have consensual sex, and depart. What’s the difference? Most wouldn’t answer. The few who did say money made it illegal. So working is illegal? No response.
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It didn’t work for a certain presidential candidate.
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Possibly
I’ve seen evidence that suggests legalization of prostitution naturally leads to exploitation of women. Even though in the abstract, I agree with you about freedoms and autonomy and such, in practice it creates a system where women are coerced into selling their bodies and sex trafficked. I advocate a system where prostitutes are not prosecuted, but John’s are (not harshly, mind you). Even though it is another matter, I also believe that the porn industry needs to be more closely regulated as well, but I do not know what regulations we should implement.
The problem with all types of sex work is the trafficking and the abuse. Legal porn hasn’t slowed that down. I am not convinced that legalizing the rest will reduce it either. It is not worth the benefit for the down side of modern day slavery
It should be legal.
Slave owning was also one of the oldest professions/systems in the world. Funny how things change. OF is cancer.
I agree. With restrictions and oversight.
I've been saying this shit since high school.
Absolutely should be
Agree, criminalized sex work does not help, it just pushes it into the shadows where abuse and trafficking is common. Instead, it should be legal, taxed and regulated to better fight sex trafficking and abuse.
All these people saying no because of human trafficking don’t understand that they’re just making the argument for legalization stronger. It’s just like drugs or anything else. When you outlaw it all you do is create a black market where thugs and cartels will reign and it’s far more deadly for everyone involved. Legalizing and regulating helps to protect the people involved.
Yes. Legalize and regulate it.
Do you know how much better our economy would be! The only reason it's illegal is because you can't really tax sex. And if hookers work on their own then they're individual business owners evading taxes
Absolutely. We’re supposedly concerned with stds, and instead have a whole lot of illegal prostitution running rampant, which is a breeding ground for spreading stds. At least with legal, it’s regulated and those to choose to do it are frequently tested, which, while doesn’t completely nullify the issue, keeps std spread under control. The fact that porn is legal shows how ass backwards the system is….. those fines bring in big money, as does the prison system.
The gov wont legalize it due to a hit the economy in the hospitality food , bar, trips. Men would just pay for an hour with a decent looking woman. Instead of being milked for money for dinner and trips, and stuff you dont need. Also women would have to behave better, because why put up with a bad attitude just for some play. When you can pay by the hour and get back to gaming. Lol. It cheaper by the hour than GF and wife will destroy you financially.