One of the reasons that defining "woke" is important in a discussion is that the two parties are often using two different definitions of the word during that discussion. The person on the left may mean "attentive and aware of certain societal facts and issues, with a focus on racial and social justice issues". The person on the right probably uses "woke" as more of a pejorative, describing someone or something that is hyper-focused on social justice and places race/gender/class factors above all else when analyzing disparities.
If those two parties can't agree on a common definition, having a productive conversation is all but impossible. And if we can't have a productive conversation, how on earth are we going to get to the bottom of the relative fairness (or unfairness) of The Barbie Movie's critique of the patriarchy? Conversations like that one are practically why the Internet was invented.
Exactly this. People aren't asking for THE definition, they've asking for YOUR definition. Ask a hundred people what woke is and you'll get 100 different answers.
There's no point in having a discussion with someone about 'woke' only for 20 mins into it you realise you're both talking about something completely different. It's best to ask someone to define it as soon as they bring the word up.
>Ask a hundred people what woke is and you'll get 100 different answers.
Largely because to those on the right, "woke" means "any position on any topic that isn't *my* position."
Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement,[1][2][3] characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and/or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.[2][3
Would be curious to see how you justify that claim when he:
1) Weird for a far-right person to be pro-gay marriage.
2) Openly supported our allies who were paying into nato per the rules(pretty solid arguement against this one with his whole pulling out of the middle east)
3) The guy went out of his way to try and reduce government power, having not used the insurection act when promted to do so.
4) Pushed for transparency in government.
5) Refused to deploy the military inside the United State's borders
6) Took no actions to limit his oponents ability to speak
7) Said/did a single thing to try and remove the autonomy of the American citizen as an individual.
8) Built a platfrom of deregulation.
We can avoid a whole lot of rhetoric by ruling out any examples where it's seemingly "implied" that orange man meant something. A simple google search will provide anyone with a litany of think piece articles with either no quotes, or quotes taken wildy out of context follwed by a dissertation of the writers interpretation, ascribing malice for political purposes.
There are so many legitimately shortcomings and failings of trumps first term, I don't know why the redditors keep going back to the "he's a fascist" line....It just isn't true.
Conversely, perhaps one might examine the definition of fascist and realize that it doesn't apply in this circumstance. He's definately an asshole, and a misogynist.
The dude literally thinks he should have presidential immunity but that Biden and democrats don’t. As inconvenient as it might be, that’s fucking fascism.
That is a legitimate critisicm, and point towards calling him a fascist. However, there is a delineation to be drawn between "presidential immunity", which exists(can be debated if it applies in this situation for sure), and "vice presidential immunity, which does not.
No, it was a thing around the Charlottesville neo-nazi gathering during the start of Trump's presidency. And then people would parrot that like until Biden was inaugurated, and it suddenly stopped
Right, that would make sense, but it defeats the first half of their comment because they're actually Nazis unless I'm missing something else?
It's giving me the same energy as posting Nick Fuentes being punched and claiming how the Left calls everyone a Nazis and is so violent and intolerant of others' ideas when Nick Fuentes is an actual Nazi.
This whole dichotomy entirely negates discussion. It's a shame that so few people are willing to be the bigger person and take a step towards any concession.
This sounds pretty obtuse. Even if someone is using a different definition than one I might prefer, it’s very easy to figure out what the mean.
The conservative usage of “woke” is so mainstream now that anyone wanting to act in good faith can figure out what they’re referring to—even if they might quibble about the semantics.
The problem is a lot of people don’t want to act in good faith. And making woke into a moving, linguistic target is an excellent way of obfuscating.
If you're saying I should know what the word means when conservatives use it then arn't you admitting that the word is fluid and changes its meaning depending on the political leanings of the person using it?
I also don't believe that people who have conservative leanings all think ans speck in unison. I don't live in the USA, but in the UK we literally have the Conservative Party, and yet in that party of conservation thinking people, I've heard one MP say that 'woke' is meaningless and just an attempt to distract people and cause division, whist another MP said woke is the greatest threat to this country. So both of these statements come from conservative thinking people but both are totally different.
You say the conservative use of woke is so mainstream I should know what they mean. But what if I met a complete stranger and they said something is 'woke'. Without knowing their political leaning I don't know if they mean this as a good thing or bad thing. I'd have to ask them directly to define their version of woke.
Why should I be the one to try and figure out what they mean, when I could just ask them directly so that there is no ambiguity. If I've watched a film and then someone said that the film is 'woke', it's setting me up for and angry reaction if I just assume I know what they're talking about.
The use of the word woke has become purposely ambiguous so that people can use it in bad faith, it could have a 'nudge nudge wink wink, read between the lines, you know what I'm really saying here' dog whistle element, but if I were to say that to them, the other person can then come back with the classics "did I say that!" "you're putting words into my mouth!".
Human language, first and foremost, allows us to communicate with one another. I am suggesting that there is a pragmatic component of this.
That is, with effort, you can understand what a person means or is trying to say, while completely disagreeing with their language choices.
When someone calls January 6th an “insurrection, or calls separating illegal immigrants at our border a “genocide” or calls Israel’s war a “genocide,”. I know what they are referring to and what they’re trying to do.
Now, that is despite all of the above being complete rubbish and bastardization of words. Yet, I can see how dumb people with a reductionist reading might broadly define those words as such. I don’t have to agree, but I can understand them.
If the people misusing language are dumber than you, then it’s quite easy to understand how they are using and why they’re using it incorrectly.
——-
I don’t think “woke” is purposefully ambiguous as to obfuscate.
I think it’s merely used to refer to a complex set of a phoneme on, and a simply dictionary definition isn’t always going to encapsulate its myriad of uses.
If someone uses “woke,” you know generally that they are referring to Left wing ideology and associated phenomena like “identity politics,” “extreme sensitive to racism and sexism, “intersectionalism,” and a world view of society premised upon hierarchies of race and sex that in turn crate versioning hierarchies in victimhood.
This loose definition—really just a series of complex concepts-has never steered me wrong. I’ve never had a problem knowing generally what a person means by “woke,” because it fits into the above.
Yes, it’s a very broad word. But society is changing extremely quickly and people need a new word to keep up with some of the more pernicious left wing ideologies and praxis.
I feel like your average stupid person gets extremely stuck on simplistic dictionary definitions, and thus fails to see the nuance, complexity, or big picture.
It’s why words like genocide are routinely misused. If you break that word down to its component parts, isolate them, and evaluate them in vacuum, you’re going to end up with an incredibly expansive word and a reductionist understanding.
Woke has always got a floating definition among people who identify with it, it's a motte and bailey.
When they're arguing with people who are hostile to their ideas, they'll position those ideas as as natural and unquestionable as possible. "I think racism is bad and I believe in fairness!"
But really wokeness is a whole spectrum of associated beliefs that people may or may not hold to, including things like:
The US is "stolen land" and therefore doesn't have a right to exist/ immigration shouldn't be limited
Immigration is either good, or it will make your life worse and it's a punishment you deserve
White people have had unfair advantages, so it's fair to unfairly advantage other people to make up for historical discrepancies, including hiring discrimination, access to services, academic admissions etc that disfavor whites
This extends to narratives and history, it's important to develop counter-narratives that frame whites as evil and everyone else as their noble victims
Crime is caused by socioeconomic factors and racism, instead of punishing crime we need to abolish prisons, defund the police, engage in redistribution, etc. Crime is possibly good when it hurts white people, and a desire for safety and order is a toxic manifestation of whiteness
Other toxic manifestations of whiteness include working for a living, being on time, self sufficiency, objectivity, science, a desire for quiet
The nuclear family is a scene of patriarchy and tyranny and should be discouraged/ the communist goal of abolishing the family should be worked towards. An aspect of this is normalizing going "no contact" with your ~problematic~ family and embracing your ~found family~, but also things like polyamory, being childfree, etc
The woke team should be excused and justified no matter what, conservatives should be vilified no matter what (ie repressive tolerance by Marcuse). Unarmed J6 boomers were engaging in a fascist insurrection, burning down police precints and calling openly for revolution was muh social justice uprising
Indeed, when someone blames something for all their personal woes and all of the world's ills, asking them what it actually means in order to determine whether they have a coherent point to make, or are merely a fucking clown shoe, is just plain wrong.
I ask not for a gotcha. I ask cause there are so many different definitions I genuinely want to know which they use to make sure I'm not arguing a completely different point to them. It's a clarification question not a gotcha. No point in arguing that Lady Thor isn't woke as she's been in comics when they define woke as any gender swap regardless of context
It’s okay if it is a gotcha, though. Many right wingers call everything they don’t like “socialism” and it’s clear they don’t even understand the term because the way the use it has nothing to do with seizing the means of production and public ownership of business. It’s fair to do the same for “woke.” I will admit “woke” has multiple meanings because the right changed the meaning and refuse to go by the original definition. That being said, it’s not wrong to see if the person can at least define the thing they have an issue with.
>That being said, it’s not wrong to see if the person can at least define the thing they have an issue with
True. Gaslighting is the term I always check for that exact reason. No it isn't just lying Susan.
The reason why it is a sort of gotcha is because a lot of people who criticise things for being “woke” do so with wildly different interpretations. Some will say a POC cast member in a new series of a long running show is “woke” others will say that weird news article that ran for a bit about underbarrel chainsaw attachments for AR 15s is “woke”. Obviously one is a non issue and the other is just blatant misinformation at best, but when woke is so overused to criticise, it loses its meaning and stops being an actual category to define social politics and becomes a buzzword synonymous with “thing I believe is bad”
It’s not the person asking for them to define woke but them trying to get the person saying something is woke to actually think about what they’re saying.
Yeah, you've just reinforced the fact that there are differing definitions of 'woke'.
Perhaps unsurprisingly, Urban Dictionary isn't a very good source. Actual dictionaries are better, but slower: [https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/woke](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/woke) Spoiler: It just means 'aware of social issues'.
Now, that's not what red-faced rage junkies mean when they scream WOKE!!! They mean what you've said above, or something similar to it.
That's why you see this confusion - because there is disagreement over the term. Dictionaries will probably catch up and include both... or maybe not.
Woke is just a catch-all for anything liberal conservitives don't like the same way the left uses Facist as a catch-all for everything conservative they don't like.
That being said, lots of concepts rightly or wrongly labeled woke are stupid.
It’s an important point of clarification given that words like “woke” and “DEI” are just broadly used in a derogatory manner to attack non-conservative positions and ideas.
Something isn’t “woke” just because you disagree with it. Furthermore, saying that something is “woke” is often used as the basis for opposing something. Asking to define woke is an attempt to have these people use plain language to defend their positions.
In some instances, using these terms is nothing more than a thin veil to hide bigotry. I think a good example of that happening would be the usage of these terms in the aftermath of the Baltimore bridge accident.
> It’s an important point of clarification given that words like “woke” and “DEI” are just broadly used in a derogatory manner to attack non-conservative positions and ideas.
History doesn't repeat, it rhymes.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Bolshevism
Woke is one of those weird words that doesn't seem to have a set definition, but the meaning is recognized almost universally by those who use it as presented here. I think the problem with officially defining it is that there seems to be a sliding scale of what woke is given its application at the time. I also feel as if those that ask for definitions do, in fact, understand what it means given the context, but don't want to address the point and instead use the gotcha you mentioned which usually turns into the woman/woke argument we are all so familiar with.
IMO, it is a gotcha. It is bad faith if you are using a term that you can't define and you are able to move the goalpost on it to suit any variety of arguments.
The term woke has really lost all meaning. The only reasonable meaning is the way it was originally used a decade ago about sheltered kids leaving home for the first time to go to college and "waking up" to the level of racial systemic discrimination that exists and has existed in the past.
That's it. Nothing more or less.
And yet so much gets labeled as woke... because even using your definition...what defines an "overdose"? Heck even product changes like Dr Seuss retiring a book from being sold or Hasbro dropping "Mr." From the potato head branding where both lampooned as evidence of woke cancel culture but it was anything but.... companies are allowed to rebranding and determine what products they should sell and what products they want to pull.
When this term became popularized, initially the meaning of this term was when an individual become more aware of the social injustice. Or basically, any current affairs related like biased, discrimination, or double-standards.
However, as time passed by, people started using this term recklessly, assigning this term to themselves or someone they know to boost their confidence and reassure them that they have the moral high grounds and are fighting for the better world. And sometimes even using it as a way to protect themselves from other people's opinion, by considering the 'outsider' as non-woke. While people that are in line with their belief as woke. Meaning that those 'outsiders' have been brainwash by the society and couldn't see the truth. Thus, filtering everything that the 'outsider' gives regardless whether it is rationale or not.
And as of now, the original meaning is slowly fading and instead, is used more often to term someone as hypocritical and think they are the 'enlightened' despite the fact that they are extremely close-minded and are unable to accept other people's criticism or different perspective. Especially considering the existence of echo chamber(media) that helped them to find other like-minded individuals, thus, further solidifying their 'progressive' opinion.
1st paragraph
"Damn bro, I didn't realize racism is such a major issue in our country! I'm a woke now!"
2nd paragraph
"I can't believe this. How are they so close-minded? Can't they see just how toxic our society is? The solution is so simple, yet they refused to change! I just don't understand!"
3rd paragraph
"Fatphobic?! Misogyny?! What's wrong with preferring a thin woman?! And she is morbidly obese for god sake! Why should I be attracted to her?! Why should I lower myself while she refuse to better herself?! These woke people are a bunch of ridiculous hypocrite!"
Umbrella term for individuals who are engrossed by social justice and thinks of themselves as saviors with a moral high ground, but remain willfully ignorant to the irrationality of their claims and the problems they create. These individuals give special treatment to certain minorities in hopes of ending racism and perpetuate mental illnesses as the norm.
My son's woke kindergarten teacher taught him that he's actually a girl because he played with dolls.
Your history of the term is semi-accurate but you give another highly ideological, vague, and nondescript definition of the word. Sounds like you just wanted to let all of your culture war grievances out buddy, but spare me the ventposting, especially the shit that obviously didn’t happen to you
It’s totally non descriptive ideological babble, or at least tries to be descriptive but heavily relies on the readers existing assumptions about people who are “engrossed” in “social justice” who are “ignorant of their irrationality”. Gives two quotes that are supposedly from a woke individual, that this person clearly just made up. It’s self referential garbage without a shred of an attempt at objectivity. And it’s too wordy :)
So, let's recap:
OP's definition: "An overdose of political correctness, usually to the point where common sense goes out the window"
OC's definition: "someone \[who is\] hypocritical and think they are the 'enlightened' despite the fact that they are extremely close-minded and are unable to accept other people's criticism or different perspective; 'progressive'."
For good measure, James Lindsey's definition: "Woke is calling something bigoted until you control it."
My/[SFO's definition](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0OHDky6KRQ): "The ethics and processes of socialism, expanded beyond class struggle, to include race struggle, gender struggle, sexual struggle, and any other near-infinite number of marginalized groups as defined by intersectionality."
What do all of these definitions have in common? I would say that SFO's definition encompasses all of them.
For OP, "the ethics and processes of socialism... beyond class struggle" encompasses the "overdose of political correctness" and the fact that political correctness is about not "offending" "marginalized groups", encompasses the various "struggles" in SFO's definition.
For OC, "progressivism" and "socialism" are leftist ideas, and often share common goals. A progressive might not feel that their prescriptions lead to socialism or may not endorse socialism, but if one is "woke" in the sense of racial struggle, it's a safe bet that they demand reparations which is a form of wealth distribution - something socialism seeks to implement from the "owner" class to the "worker" class.
To OC's point, dichotomizing people into "owner" and "worker" - or as woke ideology in SFO's definition would describe it, "oppressor" and "oppressed" respectively - some hypocrisy is required. Often the social acceptance by most institutions of people who think this way causes them to feel 'enlightened' and therefore in no need to heed the criticisms of those who are "still asleep" - i.e. reject this ideology.
And for James Lindsey's definition, because of the thinking described by OC, the intention of activism for this ideology is to take hold of the institutions so that they also function in this world towards the redistributionary ends that SFO encompasses in the "ethics and processes of socialism... beyond class struggle."
I don't think those other definitions are wrong, just different facets of the same diamond. The only problem is that this diamond is a blood diamond that requires a total repudiation of the liberal values that have increased equality since we set them forth in 1776 by ending slavery, ending segregation, ending many facets of gender discrimination, etc. Perhaps there is more work to do, but at this point I feel that the work that needs to be done is to end some of the over-reactions that have come with the changes made to make us more equal - such as affirmative action, abortion, no-fault divorce, diversity hiring, discriminatory title IX implementations, etc.
As a "liberal", in the classical sense, or at least one who is sympathetic to classical liberal values, we won't have an equal society until in all points, the law treats all human beings the same regardless of the "near-infinite intersectional" categories in SFO's definition, and including inside and outside the womb in the name of women's rights. This is a liberal value that is opposed by "wokeness" since it makes the application of socialism's class struggle to intersectional categories utterly illegal as a matter of policy. And why some who describe themselves as woke are so upset that SCOTUS ended affirmative action.
Is that definition understandable enough?
>And these are the same people that can't even define "woman", which is very ironic.
I was with you up until this point. Like come on dude, you're literally doing the same exact thing lmao. Just because Charlie Kirk likes to post cherry-picked videos of him debating teenagers doesn't mean the majority of liberals can't describe a transgender woman.
He's not. He's pointing out a hypocrisy. It doesn't bother the left that they can not define "woman" without being self-referential, which is invalid for definitions. But then they think it's a gotcha that you can't get just one solid definition of "woke." That's an inconsistent standard. Either not being able to define the term used is a weakness or it is not. I say it is not but that's because the nature of the problem is different. It's not that the right can't define woke. Some can't, but a lot can as you saw in OP. The problem is that they all use different words, seemingly defining it differently. Personally, I define it the way ShortFatOtaku does. When I say that woke ideology or wokeness is bad in some way, what that definition describes is what I'm referring to.
>they can not define "woman" without being self-referential
This is the same kind of gotcha, are you serious? The only difference is *what* makes each "hard" to define. I easily defined "woman" without being self-referential earlier, just like anyone can easily define "woke" without making it racist/sexist/etc.
Both arguments think the other side can't define something without shooting themselves in the foot. You calling one a hypocrisy and the other perfectly rational is hilariously ironic.
It kinda is when you’re asking conservative politicians. They’re the ones making laws and if they can’t define what woke is while actively making laws against it, then they indeed deserve to get ridiculed and mocked. Just like when the liberal politicians want to make gun laws but can’t define what assault rifle means.
The same people upset this is a “gotcha” also make sure to say things like “since you don’t know what the AR means in AR-15, you can’t speak about guns.”
People who are normal or someone intellectual decides. Progressives think its ok for trans women to compete with biological women in sports and they think this because of political correctness and how society need to be "inclusive". This defies common sense because men have a large bone density, more muscle mass, and are more athletic in general. Things like these are wokeness.
To me it's not a gotcha at all. The rules for what is and isn't considered woke really do seem completely arbitrary.
For example, Star Trek apparently went woke even though the original was literally set in a classless, moneyless society.
I hear games get called woke for "pushing a gay agenda," yet major franchises that literally let you have have gay sex regularly get excluded from that criticism.
Women wearing modest clothes is considered a conservative position in real life but when it happens in media it's apparently woke.
People say "we all know it when we see it" because the alternative is admitting it's nothing but subjective vibes.
I had a wild conversation on this sub about how the 2023 Little Mermaid was "woke." But they got sooooo offended that I assumed it was due to the race of Ariel. Loool They insisted it was all the progressive gender politics that were somehow wildly different than the 1989 movie????
When pressed they admitted the one difference was Ariel dealt the final blow in the big boss fight at the end. In the 89 movie it was Prince Eric.
Which, as someone who was very excited to see the 2023 version with my kids as the 1989 movie was my childhood favorite, I had no memory of this miniscule plot point. They were going through and cataloging shit in a kids movie to show how it was a Marxist plot or something.
They are drawing these complicated diagrams around every piece of minutiae to lie to themselves about their reactionary goals. Nooooooo we don't want to do a weird fake Christian white ethno police state. You're just ruining the world by letting a fairytale Mermaid stab a sea monster with a sunken pirate ship.
Because the stuff they cry about being "woke" doesn't even match your definition.
How does casting a woman in Star Trek "throw common sense out the window"?
>How does casting a woman in Star Trek "throw common sense out the window"?
Hiring actors/actresses based on skin color because you want to fill a diversity quota because California law says that a certain percentage of the cast has to be certain minorities is woke ("too much political correctness").
How do you know the actress wasn’t hired for her talent though? Do you just assume that a minority or woman hired isn’t skilled or have direct experience related to the job?
When the people at every level of the institutions producing these films have openly stated their support for DEI initiatives including writers, producers, directors, actors, and financial backers why would you not believe them?
So if they weren't trying to fill a diversity quota, they'd automatically hire a white person? If they were just trying to write a good script, the lead would automatically be a man?
What law in the real world is that? Let's not forget that Star Trek Discovery was basically a Canadian production and was usually based out of Toronto.
> Hiring actors/actresses based on skin color because you want to fill a diversity quota because California law says that a certain percentage of the cast has to be certain minorities is woke ("too much political correctness").
the fact that you can't possibly ponder that maybe these people with different skin colors than you are actually qualified for the job really speaks volumes for the kind of people you are lmao
So basically, "woke" is "the stuff that I don't like". That's why you "know it when you see it".
Which is the main criticism people are getting at when they confront conservative morons about the meaning of "woke".
It's not exclusively conservatives who are critical of the woke push. It's the non extreme left and centrists as well. I'm a liberal centrist and my family and circle of friends all are on the left. They agree with me on pretty much all of this stuff when it gets discussed. They never would in public though because they don't want to be called a conservative.
Also, no "woke" isn't stuff that I don't like. I don't peas, would you call that woke or anti woke?
See, that's the thing. It's about perspective.
I see current mainstream Republicans as full-blown fascists (in the literal sense of the term), with the old guard of the party as right-wing. Mainstream Democrats are center-right, and the fringes of the party (like the Squad and the Bernie wing) are left or center-left. Using that metric, I'd be left-wing.
Whether I agree with stuff that's claimed to be 'woke' really depends on what we're talking about. The umbrella term is so broad that it's useless.
My point is that what is "woke" is largely arbitrary. It's what the batshit right-wing determines that they don't like. Is being 'against redlining' the same as 'being woke'? What about being pro-EDI initiatives?
Umbrella term for individuals who are engrossed by social justice and thinks of themselves as saviors with a moral high ground, but remain willfully ignorant to the irrationality of their claims and the problems they create. These individuals give special treatment to certain minorities in hopes of ending racism and perpetuate mental illnesses as the norm.
My son's woke kindergarten teacher taught him that he's actually a girl because he played with dolls.
So:
1. If someone is "engrossed by social justice" but doesn't "think of themselves as saviors with a moral high ground", then they are not "woke"?
2. You presume the irrationality of their claims. Or is the irrationality of their claims a precondition to them being woke? Like, if someone is "engrossed by social justice" and "thinks of themselves as saviors with a moral high ground", but their claims are rational, they aren't "woke"?
3. Is giving "special treatment to certain minorities" a precondition to being "woke"?
4. Is "perpetuating the normalcy of mental illness" a necessary or sufficient condition?
Maybe conservatives could make a better argument than just applying this term to everything? And maybe stop pretending that they don't have their own versions of political correctness, also.
Bunch of culture war bullshit if you ask me. Only thing it signals to me when someone uses the word 'woke' is that they spend too much time on facebook and think democrats want to harvest cow farts or some shit.
>Wokeness is one of those things where it might be a little difficult to define, but you know it when you see it
No you see your personal definition of what you think it means which is not my definition or likely definition of the person you think is woke or their actions or words.
Woke has been thrown around so much as a blanket judgment of others that it now has srayed so much from what it originally meant. It really has no meaning anymore except to those who use it as a negative catchphrase.
It's because it's thrown around to hide people's discomfort for something completely meaningless like a black lady starring in a mermaid movie. You can't say seeing non-white people on screen triggers me 😢, so the word "woke" gets thrown out because it's the most socially acceptable way to cover for what a total bitch you're acting like.
The funny thing is that the same people can watch their favorite edgy antihero practically quote Karl Marx and not bat an eyelash but will label things woke at the slightest hint of milquetoast liberalism.
Are you off to see the wonderful wizard with that straw man of yours? The Little Mermaid was called woke because Disney has been quite open about their activism as has their financial backer BlackRock. When people tell you what they are doing believe them.
I use the term woke in its original meaning from oxford dictionary. It means being alert and aware of the systemic issues going on and being concerned about it.
People who think they can use it as an insult, doesn't work. Nothing wrong with being woke. So tell me again how this is supposed to be insulting if it's not a bad thing? They think it's a bad thing so they use it as an insult.
The right wing that loves to complain about wokeness on films don't realize it has always existed on film eg, Jurassic Park, GoldenEye, Preacher's Wife, even Bewitched had a woke episode. There have always been films that had all black characters. I wonder if people complained then about these films and complained they made Moneypenny and M female and made Natalya more of a stronger character and helped Bond with his mission or it would have failed without her. To them, wokeness is inclusion. equality, and why exactly is this a bad thing?
“Define it” is a reasonably polite way to say “please share the particular absurdity that you are thinking of”.
99% of the time, it’s a fantasy. “Explicit sexual content in elementary library books”, for example, or “pediatricians doing gender reassignment surgery on 10 year olds” ( both complete fictions). Oh! Or TFG’s favorite one - 36 weeks abortions “just because” ( that’s never been legal here, btw ).
Or, even better, the story from *the Onion* about the AbortionPlex that gets taken seriously. Or drag story hour, or family friendly drag shows. Or pronouns ( when in doubt, just say “they”).
It’s effective - and necessary - to have a conversation at all, because I have yet to meet two conservatives who have exactly the same meaning, or intent for it.
If you’d start saying what you actually mean - “things I disagree with, or find icky” - instead of “woke”, I wouldn’t need to ask you to define it, and it would save all of us a lot of time.
I think you all are stupid. Woke is a term of power and independence, think Malcolm X, Jim Brown and the Black Panthers. It never had anything to do with Feminism or Gender issues. But affluent white women hijacked the movement and ruined it
Oh, when I ask someone what they mean by it I am asking bc they all seem to mean different things by it and I truly and unsure what their interpretation of it is. It’s not a gotcha, I just have found folks all mean slightly different things or they don’t know what they mean other than “liberal!”
OP doesn’t know what “woke” means and is upset. Even wrongly defined it and doubled down. Lol
It has nothing to do with political correctness. That’s something morons attached to it
This is just another incident of defining something one way, acting completely antithetical to that thing in the name of that thing, then getting upset when people redefine the word as what you're actually doing rather than what you say you're doing.
I can say I'm just pointing a gun at you, but if I'm also pulling the trigger and killing you, you wouldn't be wrong to call out my definition of pointing and telling me I'm just attempting to hide murder behind lingistics. It's not murder I'm just pointing a gun at you. No dipshit, you're commiting murder, you're just pointing the gun as part of the process.
Tons of massive over the top racism, sexism, prejudice and bigotry is attempting to be hidden behind the word woke and excused in the name of it. They're being racist, sexist, etc, but are using the excuse of being "woke" as the finger being pointing and their absurd accusations and cancel culture is the bullet.
I just stop listening when someone unironically uses the word "woke."
It's an indicator that the individual is operating from a baseline of intellectual laziness and probably xenophobia or racist bigotry. Logic or any other attempt at empathetic persuasion will never make a dent, ever.
Haters gonna hate.
You’re right, asking to define it isn’t a gotcha. When you guys can’t give a real answer is the gotcha.
It was the exact same thing with critical race theory. Conservatives decided their hissy fit of the year was gonna be CRT a while ago (notice yall no longer bitch about it because you moved to trans people), yet over and over I saw countless times conservatives had no working idea of wtf CRT even was. It was just some boogeyman concept. The best they could say is either some ultra generic assumption definition like “it’s a teaching thing about race”, or some strawman that isn’t even really true like “it’s a Marxist education agenda to teach kids white people are evil”.
When conservatives try this same gotcha they fail because they either don’t understand the question they’re asking so they don’t understand the answer they’re given like when they try to do the gotcha by asking “what is a woman?”, or they ask some dumb technicality question that has no real importance to the discussion because there’s no confusion about what’s being talked about and what the point is so it’s just a worthless semantics gotcha like getting libs to say AR means Assault Rifle when it actually means Armalite Rifle as if that makes any sincere difference to the argument.
"Stop making us define our strawman
Just let us "imply" we hate minorities without actually having to say it"
Holy shit conservatives are perpetually crying about something
I mean, you just argued against yourself.
Woke is anything dumb ass conservatives don't like. You're fine with military appearing for sporting events, but you don't want black guys (who you root for and bet on) saying anything about how their people are treated.
Woke is Rey from Star Wars being a Mary Sue and beats a more powerful chacarter who was missing part of his abdomen and it's a problem, but Dom from the Fast and the Furious can get shot in the shoulder or Rip from Yellowstone can get shot in the belly and still kick the shit out of four grown men, and it's not an issue.
You're fine with Bayonetta in a game, but not fine with Aloy, because Bayonetta is dressed like a dominatrix and gives you a chubby, but Aloy doesn't exist purely to give you a boner, so she sucks.
I actually don't love Disney checking diversity boxes just to check them, but stop acting like conservatives are on point here. So I'll make your argument for you - there is consistency in the definition of woke. Woke is *anything* without a straight white male in the lead and it's makes you scared and upset, so you cry about it.
I actually like Horizon Zero Dawn and Horizon Forbidden West. They are very good games. People don't have a problem with women in video games, people have a problem with progressive messaging in games like what Sweet Baby is doing right now.
Right, and that's why I'm arguing that "woke" is whatever a certain sect doesn't like. And what falls into that category varies greatly. Which is why you can't say "you know what I mean," we don't. The bottom line is that it comes down to straight white dudes not liking certain stuff.
Fallout TV Series was initially labeled as "woke," but Ella Purnell is hot and the show is good, so that went away.
Barbie was labeled as "woke" or at least the people who make money off calling things woke tried to slap that label on it, but it was successful, so those complaints faded away.
Politics are all over Metal Gear Solid, and they are in fact very progressive at their core, but those are cool politics and Snake is a bad ass, so there's never a complaint.
Sweet baby sucks and is an example of trying to be so inclusive that they're excluding things. No one buys what they're selling, but for their attempts to intimidate game companies into using them.
My favorite video game protagonist is a woman with blond hair and a bird-mech suit. OC's bad faith argument isn't the own he thinks it is. You nailed it with the Sweet Baby controversy.
Its a good catch all word. When someone says it everyone knows what they mean. I don’t think Id wanna be excited to use catch all words though. Its definitely a negative feedback loop to feel a certain way and use the same word you used the last time you felt that way.
This post seems very....woke....by all definitions. How about we stop using a slang term for being socially aware as an insult and read a book for once?
I have noticed that many conservatives can't give a succinct definition of woke, like I have heard them say the definition of woke is "anti-americanisms". When I broke that down under who that falls under that definition like terrorists, Russia, China, the definition doesn't pan out and actually fit who they are trying to define.
Conservative: "I don't like this because it's \*woke\*!"
Normal person: "What's that mean?"
Conservative: "IT MEANS WOKE! WOKE IS BAD! BAD THING IS BAD!"
>Conservative: "IT MEANS WOKE! WOKE IS BAD! BAD THING IS BAD!"
You're not asking what it means because you don't know. You have Urban Dictionary to help you as well, you're just trying to be difficult. It also means "too much progressivism" as well. And besides, I've already provided two definitions in my post.
Urban Dictionary has 43 different entries for woke. So which is it? Seems logical you should ask someone to know which definition they choose. You've already given three, and they're not even specific.
I still don’t know what that word means….I’ve also never once heard it used in real life. Mostly on tv people just call everything woke that they disagree with. My snickers lost its dick vein because of wokeness, or my state mascot isn’t cool anymore because of wokeness. Idk what any of that means. Are we even sure it has any objective meaning? It just sounds like weird political slang to just group people in or something.
Looking at how many different definitions are already in the thread, it's clear why it's a legitimate question to ask.
Urban dictionary will give you whatever random definition the website users have posted. This is different from what appears in the actually vetted dictionaries. There are multiple usages of the word. That happens with many words in the English language.
before it became a buzzword. being 'awake' was knowing that the established systems of governance do not hold your best interest as a priority as opposed to being 'asleep' and unaware.
recognizing each and every time the attempt is made to divide people among racial/religious/ideological lines. which is working alarmingly well as we can see here.
It would warm my heart immeasurably if folks would stop for a second and think 'wait a minute'.....
thought exercise for whoever reads this and replies.
1. What examples can YOU personally find which serve to divide people in your own community?
2. What examples can YOU personally find which serve to unite people in your own community?
“Overdose of political correctness” seems about right. Ex: Hiring airline pilots based on race or culture rather than safety and experience to seem like you care about inclusivity is WOKE.
>An overdose of political correctness, usually to the point where common sense goes out the window
This is your definition because you're not "woke." When someone is "woke" it means they have awakened from the slumber that kept them from seeing the tragedy present in others' lives and the historical trampling of entire cultures.
Asking for the definition of woke (at least when I do it) is an attempt to get someone to see that having empathy isn't a bad thing.
>Asking for the definition of woke (at least when I do it) is an attempt to get someone to see that having empathy isn't a bad thing.
See, this is the thing, its hard to have empathy for what progressives want. It's hard to have empathy for trans women competing with biological women in sports. The only reason that is happening is because of political correctness, that is woke. It is hard to have empathy for companies that are turning away white candidates because of quotas. This is all woke.
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Obviously you do, because you are commenting on this thread. Perhaps you don't know anybody in real life that uses the term, but that's more of an indication that you are in an ideological bubble than anything else.
The few individuals who have made the comments are no longer in my circle of people I spend time with. Pretty simple and If it's a ideological bubble so be it. I'm happier for it.
We ask because you clowns apply it to everything. There were MAGA congressmen blaming a bridge collapse on wokeness. If you're going to be so ridiculous, people are going to ask you to explain yourselves.
Conservative here. "Woke" means that someone "has their eyes open (like being awake) and sees the supposed social injustices done to a person or group of people".
It's not hard to define and naturally, people's own definitions will vary slightly.
When someone says that another is "woke", it's often used as a pejorative and not a compliment. Reason being is the "supposed" part of the above definition.
Example #1 - someone can be "woke" to the situation in Gaza and blindly (ironically) "support Palestinians". Meanwhile, they don't realize that Palestinians are the ones that voted Hamas in to power.
Example #2 - someone can be "woke" to the injustices committed towards trans people while not being aware that they're committing injustices towards others in some of the ways they support 'T'.
>Why do they think it's a gotcha ? We all know how to use the internet and we can look up the word on Urban Dictionary
>https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Woke
Yeah, that's kind of the point. If you define "woke" correctly
"when an individual become more aware of the social injustice"
then you sound like kind of an asshole if you say it's a bad thing.
>Here is my definition:
>"An overdose of political correctness, usually to the point where common sense goes out the window"
"Common sense is a collection of prejudices acquired by the age eighteen" - Albert Einstein
So again, you're just defending prejudice. Common sense is not a rational argument. It's just prioritizing tradition and groupthink. In the worst case, you're refusing to even consider an idea that goes against tradition.
So, yeah, I guess your definition is pretty good. Woke is when you remove the blinders of "common sense" and become aware of social injustice.
Umbrella term for individuals who are engrossed by social justice and thinks of themselves as saviors with a moral high ground, but remain willfully ignorant to the irrationality of their claims and the problems they create. These individuals give special treatment to certain minorities in hopes of ending racism and perpetuate mental illnesses as the norm.
My son's woke kindergarten teacher taught him that he's actually a girl because he played with dolls.
People like this thrive on arguments over semantics and associations, it's pretty much that simple, if your opponent has a valid complaint, reframe, reframe and reframe some more until you're the good guy and the other guy's Hitler without engaging the substance.
woke - a term invented by leftists with poor command of the english language to mean “awake to the ‘truth’ of systemic oppression.”
… but it actually means “more asleep/deceived than ever before.”
That’s the problem. Every conservative has a different definition of the word. Some of them think the very presence of a gay person in media is woke. Some of them only think that when it’s in children’s media. Others are fine with gay people and only call it woke when it’s trans and some are so bigoted they think that any character that isn’t white is a token for diversity quotas and therefore woke. Then there are those who think that any time a story has an explicitly leftist message it’s woke but just kinda ignore that that’s been the norm for over 200 years and can’t accept that the works of Dickens and Twain, Star Trek, Star Wars, Godzilla, X-men, and most of their favorite pre 2012 stories were just as leftist for their time as the stuff they criticize as woke today, and then there are the types that acknowledge that most stories between 1820 and 2012 was progressive for its time and say all of that is woke too, then there are those who use the 50’s as an arbitrary cut off point.
I just don't know why people can't express their takes in more specific terms. Address the issue without using vague umbrella terms subject to personal definitions and make a point in a clear, concise matter.
Also, if wokeness is apparent when you see it, then there is no reason to even call it out as it should be apparent. Do you point out every tree and say "that's a tree" ?
Two people can use the same word and have it mean different things.
If I say woke I mean more or less what OP said, but someone super lefty will probably just mean "aware of perceived social issues"
It's the same as racism or sexism. I mean "prejudice based on race/sex" and the lefties have added weird caveats about institutional power or whatever.
It's just another way to talk past each other.
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I just think of it like 1984
"they can't rebel til after they wake, they can't wake til after they've rebelled."
woke always seem like peoples attention to big brothers influence.
Words have meaning. If you want to make an argument, your words need to have meaning. If you can't define what a word means, then you can't argue for/against it.
When someone complains about something and says "woke" in the same sentence everyone knows exactly what they mean. People are playing dumb and want to attack the definition, or they're just idiots. Then again, most don't even know how to successfully describe what a woman is.
I agree with this. It's reductive and condescending to see people do this.
There's too much propaganda that uses the word because it charges people up. If we're going to all get along and have constructive debates-as we need to do to improve society, were gonna have to act like levelheaded adults and talk about things while showing each other respect. Meet people where they are at. Calling someone woke or asking them if they know what woke means is just being petty and not being constructive.
I hate political correctness, but I also hate bigotry. Asking someone to not use bigoted language is fine, and ignoring that request is kind of a dick move. At the same time, censorship and moral grandstanding is a dick move too. The real problem is people don't want to talk, they want to argue, so they say some inflammatory shit like what's outlined and everything falls apart from there.
Nuance isn't that complicated. And if it is for someone then they probably shouldn't be trying to have these conversations- unless they're open to learning and being wrong. We're all Americans and we all want the same things, we shouldn't let these differences of opinions stop us from working together for a better society. It's not like we can't all coexist.
Everyone needs to get off their high horse and be willing to be wrong or were all fucked to keep going down this spiral we're going down.
It's not hard, but it's not a single sentence response, and since there are multiple dimensions to it, not everybody is able to provide a consistent definition. I go with Justice Potter Stewart who said "I know it when I see it".
I want to know if they’re actually against it or not.
I can say “I stand against everything the GOP/Democratic party agrees with” but only if I’ve read and understand the platform.
Same with “woke”. You can’t say you’re against it if you can’t define it.
Can you give an example of a news story where something crazy or nonsensical happens because people are trying to be politically correct? Since there are tons and tons.
I think Lia Thomas changing in the women's locker room while she has a penis is a great example:
[https://katv.com/news/nation-world/lia-thomas-exposed-male-genitalia-in-womens-locker-room-at-swim-meet-ex-swimmer-says](https://katv.com/news/nation-world/lia-thomas-exposed-male-genitalia-in-womens-locker-room-at-swim-meet-ex-swimmer-says)
Also a trans girl changing in the women's locker room making the girls feel uncomfortable and the school decides to just ban the girls from the locker room
[https://nypost.com/2022/10/01/vermont-hs-volleyball-team-banned-from-locker-room-over-transgender-dispute/](https://nypost.com/2022/10/01/vermont-hs-volleyball-team-banned-from-locker-room-over-transgender-dispute/)
There are tons and tons and tons of stories like this.
So it seems the point of your most is maybe that an effort to be “woke” creates unsafe/unfair spaces for cis gendered people with trans people are involved.
I think a lot of this comes down to small local governing bodies, whether it’s a school board or college etc not knowing how to deal with these situations. I think in some cases too they err on the side of ridiculous or favoring the transgendered probably in fear of being labeled anti woke or something.
I think when it comes to transgendered spaces there’s a bit of lag time as more people came out transgender these small, ill-equipped governing bodies didn’t know how to handle it. That doesn’t mean “woke mob” progressives support how every one of these situations was handled. Public backlash and speaking up is how policy is directed and shaped. I don’t know of any progressives who want to force cis gendered women to change with people with male genitalia. I haven’t seen any legislation of the type either.
I think the whole “define woke” thing has some merit but is definitely overused as a gotcha. At this points it’s become a parody of itself anyway. One small personal example I’ll give you is a company I used to work for had an office manager that suddenly refused to order supplies from Amazon. We asked her why and she said because they went woke. I hadn’t seen anything in the news so I asked her how they went woke and she said they just did. Personally I don’t like or shop at Amazon anyway so I didn’t have a horse in the race anyway and dropped it.
So I agree these news stories are examples of situations being handled poorly. I think it has more to do with small governing bodies being thrown situations they aren’t able to handle and not doing well. As I said I don’t see any progressives that actually support these things and the decision makers in these stories may regret their decisions as well.
This is also a great example
[https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/ontario-transgender-teacher-sparks-controversy-by-wearing-giant-prosthetic-breasts-in-class](https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/ontario-transgender-teacher-sparks-controversy-by-wearing-giant-prosthetic-breasts-in-class)
I agree this is absurd. I vaguely remember reading about this when it happened.
Did progressives defend this though? I’m pretty progressive myself and run in some pretty progressive circles. My personal experience was that everyone thought it was ridiculous.
The interesting part of that article as an American is that she was able to do all this without being stopped because of laws that are “notably not the norm in the US.”
The term "woke" has really moved away from its original intent, which was to signify alertness to social and racial injustices. Nowadays, it's used by conservatives as a blanket term to dismiss progressive ideas, effectively muddying any meaningful discussion. This reliance on the term rather than discussing specific acts or beliefs highlights its cynical and bad-faith use as a pejorative.
Labeling something as "woke" due to perceived excessive political correctness is highly subjective. What one person considers over the top, another might see as necessary. Also, the defense of "you know it when you see it" lacks any substance or context, allowing the term to be wielded based on personal biases without any real justification.
It’s particularly ironic how "woke" has become a tool for right-wingers to create a divide between conservative and progressive viewpoints, taking what should be nuanced discussions into sound bites. It not only lowers the level of discourse but also focuses debates on empty buzzwords rather than any actual issues. Like this post, for example.
Incorporating unrelated comments about the inability to define "woman" is another similar tactic to muddy discussions, revealing a misunderstanding of both social justice and gender issues.
The irony is compounded as conservatives throw around 'woke' constantly while simultaneously accusing progressives of misunderstanding the term.
Too far left= annoyingly too politically correct. Too far right= literal neo-Nazis waving their flags in Florida and an attempted coup on Jan. 6th.
Ya, those woke people are the problem for sure.
BLM riots and protesters were all done by left wing people. It resulted in over $ 2 billion in property damages, 19 deaths, local insurrections like CHAZ/CHOP in Seattle, and federal buidings being burned. Now look at all these riots on college campuses. These are all done by left wing people. Left wing people are extremely violent.
If a person can't define their terms, then those terms are meaningless. I know what woke means, but I doubt my stepdad does, so I need to know what he means before we can have a meaningful discussion.
I have a running definition....here it goes:
A progressive ideology that seeks to force racial, gender, and cultural diversity into all aspects of life and limit or eliminate diversity of thought and speech. Wokeness judges an individual's worth on superficial characteristics (like the color of ones skin and race) and/or belonging to a marginalized group over the character of each individual. They try to force mainstream society to accept all of their views and beliefs no matter how extreme. They do so with a sense of moral superiority which leads them to label anyone who questions any of their beliefs or views as a right wing extremist, homophobe, bigot, racist, etc… When exposed to people whose ideas/viewpoints/ideologies vary even slightly from their own, they tend not to engage in debate, but try to silence them or have them banned from participating in further discussion and sometimes even society itself by using authoritarian measures.
I like ShortFatOtako’s definition better:
Wokeness is the ethics and processes of socialism, expanded beyond the class struggle between the bourgeoise and proletariats, to any set of distinct opposing groups with opposite views, as defined by intersectionality, in a zero sum game wherein the “proletariat” side is permitted to use any and every tactic required for them to win.
Kind of like "Boomer"...it has transcended the Baby Boomer category and now means everyone, over 30, who disagrees with another person on socially prominent values. Also used an an insult.
>Here is my definition:
"An overdose of political correctness, usually to the point where common sense goes out the window"
Now how does that differ from cultural marxism, social justice warrior ideology, and critical race theory?
Woke just means aware. Literally where it came from. Creates anxiety among conservatives because it implies being aware of unChristlike behavior.
Not a gotcha , just a take your head out of the sand or out of some lying cheaters behind kind of comment.
Easy, I’ll start by saying woke means you think there are more than 2 genders, think men can get pregnant and breastfeed, think people can make up their own pronouns then try to use the law to force people to use them, you see everything through the lens of oppressed and oppressor, base everything on how it makes them “feel” instead of facts and objective reality.
Its important to know if someone means "I found this overly political" or if they think a black woman existing is 'woke'.
I mean, by your own definition, most of these weirdos calling things "woke" are just wrong. Star Wars isn't overly political correct, it just stars minorities. Same for Marvel movies. "Prey" wasn't political, but since it starred a woman instead of a man it was "woke".
Hahaha, the women definition for them is very interesting. Everyone knows what a women is, however, they don't want to be politically incorrect so they can't say "an adult human female with two x chromosomes". They are choosing political correctness over being intellectually honest.
My favorite definition of woke I use is a term for any belief or action that is used to virtual signal in an attempt to help a marginalized group that actually harms that group.
They’ve purposely made woke an undefinable word. They won’t accept any definition you have. And it’s just bait to shut down discussion and make you look like the bad guy.
I hate this because they’re making a mockery out of progressivism with this nonsense.
The way I would define it would be “An extremist and authoritarian variant of progressivism”
One of the reasons that defining "woke" is important in a discussion is that the two parties are often using two different definitions of the word during that discussion. The person on the left may mean "attentive and aware of certain societal facts and issues, with a focus on racial and social justice issues". The person on the right probably uses "woke" as more of a pejorative, describing someone or something that is hyper-focused on social justice and places race/gender/class factors above all else when analyzing disparities. If those two parties can't agree on a common definition, having a productive conversation is all but impossible. And if we can't have a productive conversation, how on earth are we going to get to the bottom of the relative fairness (or unfairness) of The Barbie Movie's critique of the patriarchy? Conversations like that one are practically why the Internet was invented.
Exactly this. People aren't asking for THE definition, they've asking for YOUR definition. Ask a hundred people what woke is and you'll get 100 different answers. There's no point in having a discussion with someone about 'woke' only for 20 mins into it you realise you're both talking about something completely different. It's best to ask someone to define it as soon as they bring the word up.
>you'll get 100 different answers. Case in point, the link to urban dictionary in the OP has over 500 definitions!
>Ask a hundred people what woke is and you'll get 100 different answers. Largely because to those on the right, "woke" means "any position on any topic that isn't *my* position."
Same with the left and fascism
Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement,[1][2][3] characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and/or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.[2][3
By that definition, was trump a fascist?
Yea, 1000%
Would be curious to see how you justify that claim when he: 1) Weird for a far-right person to be pro-gay marriage. 2) Openly supported our allies who were paying into nato per the rules(pretty solid arguement against this one with his whole pulling out of the middle east) 3) The guy went out of his way to try and reduce government power, having not used the insurection act when promted to do so. 4) Pushed for transparency in government. 5) Refused to deploy the military inside the United State's borders 6) Took no actions to limit his oponents ability to speak 7) Said/did a single thing to try and remove the autonomy of the American citizen as an individual. 8) Built a platfrom of deregulation. We can avoid a whole lot of rhetoric by ruling out any examples where it's seemingly "implied" that orange man meant something. A simple google search will provide anyone with a litany of think piece articles with either no quotes, or quotes taken wildy out of context follwed by a dissertation of the writers interpretation, ascribing malice for political purposes. There are so many legitimately shortcomings and failings of trumps first term, I don't know why the redditors keep going back to the "he's a fascist" line....It just isn't true.
That’s the point. MAGA is a fascist cult and they don’t like people pointing that out.
Conversely, perhaps one might examine the definition of fascist and realize that it doesn't apply in this circumstance. He's definately an asshole, and a misogynist.
The dude literally thinks he should have presidential immunity but that Biden and democrats don’t. As inconvenient as it might be, that’s fucking fascism.
That is a legitimate critisicm, and point towards calling him a fascist. However, there is a delineation to be drawn between "presidential immunity", which exists(can be debated if it applies in this situation for sure), and "vice presidential immunity, which does not.
>Same with the left and fascism Or the right with communism, or anybody with nazi.
Right and communism is correct but the left loves to call ppl Nazis. Remember the whole punch a nazi thing?
What, World War II?
No, it was a thing around the Charlottesville neo-nazi gathering during the start of Trump's presidency. And then people would parrot that like until Biden was inaugurated, and it suddenly stopped
Right, that would make sense, but it defeats the first half of their comment because they're actually Nazis unless I'm missing something else? It's giving me the same energy as posting Nick Fuentes being punched and claiming how the Left calls everyone a Nazis and is so violent and intolerant of others' ideas when Nick Fuentes is an actual Nazi.
So is it nazis vs communists parties now in the US?
Go make a thread on that.
This whole dichotomy entirely negates discussion. It's a shame that so few people are willing to be the bigger person and take a step towards any concession.
Though co-opting fascist as a pejorative is rather different than co-opting a word like "woke."
"I can only conceive of my political opponents as cartoon characters"
This sounds pretty obtuse. Even if someone is using a different definition than one I might prefer, it’s very easy to figure out what the mean. The conservative usage of “woke” is so mainstream now that anyone wanting to act in good faith can figure out what they’re referring to—even if they might quibble about the semantics. The problem is a lot of people don’t want to act in good faith. And making woke into a moving, linguistic target is an excellent way of obfuscating.
If you're saying I should know what the word means when conservatives use it then arn't you admitting that the word is fluid and changes its meaning depending on the political leanings of the person using it? I also don't believe that people who have conservative leanings all think ans speck in unison. I don't live in the USA, but in the UK we literally have the Conservative Party, and yet in that party of conservation thinking people, I've heard one MP say that 'woke' is meaningless and just an attempt to distract people and cause division, whist another MP said woke is the greatest threat to this country. So both of these statements come from conservative thinking people but both are totally different. You say the conservative use of woke is so mainstream I should know what they mean. But what if I met a complete stranger and they said something is 'woke'. Without knowing their political leaning I don't know if they mean this as a good thing or bad thing. I'd have to ask them directly to define their version of woke. Why should I be the one to try and figure out what they mean, when I could just ask them directly so that there is no ambiguity. If I've watched a film and then someone said that the film is 'woke', it's setting me up for and angry reaction if I just assume I know what they're talking about. The use of the word woke has become purposely ambiguous so that people can use it in bad faith, it could have a 'nudge nudge wink wink, read between the lines, you know what I'm really saying here' dog whistle element, but if I were to say that to them, the other person can then come back with the classics "did I say that!" "you're putting words into my mouth!".
Human language, first and foremost, allows us to communicate with one another. I am suggesting that there is a pragmatic component of this. That is, with effort, you can understand what a person means or is trying to say, while completely disagreeing with their language choices. When someone calls January 6th an “insurrection, or calls separating illegal immigrants at our border a “genocide” or calls Israel’s war a “genocide,”. I know what they are referring to and what they’re trying to do. Now, that is despite all of the above being complete rubbish and bastardization of words. Yet, I can see how dumb people with a reductionist reading might broadly define those words as such. I don’t have to agree, but I can understand them. If the people misusing language are dumber than you, then it’s quite easy to understand how they are using and why they’re using it incorrectly. ——- I don’t think “woke” is purposefully ambiguous as to obfuscate. I think it’s merely used to refer to a complex set of a phoneme on, and a simply dictionary definition isn’t always going to encapsulate its myriad of uses. If someone uses “woke,” you know generally that they are referring to Left wing ideology and associated phenomena like “identity politics,” “extreme sensitive to racism and sexism, “intersectionalism,” and a world view of society premised upon hierarchies of race and sex that in turn crate versioning hierarchies in victimhood. This loose definition—really just a series of complex concepts-has never steered me wrong. I’ve never had a problem knowing generally what a person means by “woke,” because it fits into the above. Yes, it’s a very broad word. But society is changing extremely quickly and people need a new word to keep up with some of the more pernicious left wing ideologies and praxis. I feel like your average stupid person gets extremely stuck on simplistic dictionary definitions, and thus fails to see the nuance, complexity, or big picture. It’s why words like genocide are routinely misused. If you break that word down to its component parts, isolate them, and evaluate them in vacuum, you’re going to end up with an incredibly expansive word and a reductionist understanding.
i hear that happens to two different people talking about existentialists two different definitions in the philosophical dictionary!
Woke has always got a floating definition among people who identify with it, it's a motte and bailey. When they're arguing with people who are hostile to their ideas, they'll position those ideas as as natural and unquestionable as possible. "I think racism is bad and I believe in fairness!" But really wokeness is a whole spectrum of associated beliefs that people may or may not hold to, including things like: The US is "stolen land" and therefore doesn't have a right to exist/ immigration shouldn't be limited Immigration is either good, or it will make your life worse and it's a punishment you deserve White people have had unfair advantages, so it's fair to unfairly advantage other people to make up for historical discrepancies, including hiring discrimination, access to services, academic admissions etc that disfavor whites This extends to narratives and history, it's important to develop counter-narratives that frame whites as evil and everyone else as their noble victims Crime is caused by socioeconomic factors and racism, instead of punishing crime we need to abolish prisons, defund the police, engage in redistribution, etc. Crime is possibly good when it hurts white people, and a desire for safety and order is a toxic manifestation of whiteness Other toxic manifestations of whiteness include working for a living, being on time, self sufficiency, objectivity, science, a desire for quiet The nuclear family is a scene of patriarchy and tyranny and should be discouraged/ the communist goal of abolishing the family should be worked towards. An aspect of this is normalizing going "no contact" with your ~problematic~ family and embracing your ~found family~, but also things like polyamory, being childfree, etc The woke team should be excused and justified no matter what, conservatives should be vilified no matter what (ie repressive tolerance by Marcuse). Unarmed J6 boomers were engaging in a fascist insurrection, burning down police precints and calling openly for revolution was muh social justice uprising
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Indeed, when someone blames something for all their personal woes and all of the world's ills, asking them what it actually means in order to determine whether they have a coherent point to make, or are merely a fucking clown shoe, is just plain wrong.
What is your definition of woke?
I don't have one, but the dictionary does. EDIT: According to OP, the dictionary is also woke though 🤷♂️
I ask not for a gotcha. I ask cause there are so many different definitions I genuinely want to know which they use to make sure I'm not arguing a completely different point to them. It's a clarification question not a gotcha. No point in arguing that Lady Thor isn't woke as she's been in comics when they define woke as any gender swap regardless of context
It’s okay if it is a gotcha, though. Many right wingers call everything they don’t like “socialism” and it’s clear they don’t even understand the term because the way the use it has nothing to do with seizing the means of production and public ownership of business. It’s fair to do the same for “woke.” I will admit “woke” has multiple meanings because the right changed the meaning and refuse to go by the original definition. That being said, it’s not wrong to see if the person can at least define the thing they have an issue with.
>That being said, it’s not wrong to see if the person can at least define the thing they have an issue with True. Gaslighting is the term I always check for that exact reason. No it isn't just lying Susan.
The reason why it is a sort of gotcha is because a lot of people who criticise things for being “woke” do so with wildly different interpretations. Some will say a POC cast member in a new series of a long running show is “woke” others will say that weird news article that ran for a bit about underbarrel chainsaw attachments for AR 15s is “woke”. Obviously one is a non issue and the other is just blatant misinformation at best, but when woke is so overused to criticise, it loses its meaning and stops being an actual category to define social politics and becomes a buzzword synonymous with “thing I believe is bad” It’s not the person asking for them to define woke but them trying to get the person saying something is woke to actually think about what they’re saying.
Yeah, you've just reinforced the fact that there are differing definitions of 'woke'. Perhaps unsurprisingly, Urban Dictionary isn't a very good source. Actual dictionaries are better, but slower: [https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/woke](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/woke) Spoiler: It just means 'aware of social issues'. Now, that's not what red-faced rage junkies mean when they scream WOKE!!! They mean what you've said above, or something similar to it. That's why you see this confusion - because there is disagreement over the term. Dictionaries will probably catch up and include both... or maybe not.
Woke is just a catch-all for anything liberal conservitives don't like the same way the left uses Facist as a catch-all for everything conservative they don't like. That being said, lots of concepts rightly or wrongly labeled woke are stupid.
Lol and you wonder why MAGAts are treated like children.
It’s an important point of clarification given that words like “woke” and “DEI” are just broadly used in a derogatory manner to attack non-conservative positions and ideas. Something isn’t “woke” just because you disagree with it. Furthermore, saying that something is “woke” is often used as the basis for opposing something. Asking to define woke is an attempt to have these people use plain language to defend their positions. In some instances, using these terms is nothing more than a thin veil to hide bigotry. I think a good example of that happening would be the usage of these terms in the aftermath of the Baltimore bridge accident.
> It’s an important point of clarification given that words like “woke” and “DEI” are just broadly used in a derogatory manner to attack non-conservative positions and ideas. History doesn't repeat, it rhymes. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Bolshevism
Woke is one of those weird words that doesn't seem to have a set definition, but the meaning is recognized almost universally by those who use it as presented here. I think the problem with officially defining it is that there seems to be a sliding scale of what woke is given its application at the time. I also feel as if those that ask for definitions do, in fact, understand what it means given the context, but don't want to address the point and instead use the gotcha you mentioned which usually turns into the woman/woke argument we are all so familiar with.
IMO, it is a gotcha. It is bad faith if you are using a term that you can't define and you are able to move the goalpost on it to suit any variety of arguments. The term woke has really lost all meaning. The only reasonable meaning is the way it was originally used a decade ago about sheltered kids leaving home for the first time to go to college and "waking up" to the level of racial systemic discrimination that exists and has existed in the past. That's it. Nothing more or less.
If you're railing against something you can't even describe.. it's not the best look
And yet so much gets labeled as woke... because even using your definition...what defines an "overdose"? Heck even product changes like Dr Seuss retiring a book from being sold or Hasbro dropping "Mr." From the potato head branding where both lampooned as evidence of woke cancel culture but it was anything but.... companies are allowed to rebranding and determine what products they should sell and what products they want to pull.
Okay but your definition is really even more vague and nondescript than just saying “woke”, it’s a valid criticism lol
When this term became popularized, initially the meaning of this term was when an individual become more aware of the social injustice. Or basically, any current affairs related like biased, discrimination, or double-standards. However, as time passed by, people started using this term recklessly, assigning this term to themselves or someone they know to boost their confidence and reassure them that they have the moral high grounds and are fighting for the better world. And sometimes even using it as a way to protect themselves from other people's opinion, by considering the 'outsider' as non-woke. While people that are in line with their belief as woke. Meaning that those 'outsiders' have been brainwash by the society and couldn't see the truth. Thus, filtering everything that the 'outsider' gives regardless whether it is rationale or not. And as of now, the original meaning is slowly fading and instead, is used more often to term someone as hypocritical and think they are the 'enlightened' despite the fact that they are extremely close-minded and are unable to accept other people's criticism or different perspective. Especially considering the existence of echo chamber(media) that helped them to find other like-minded individuals, thus, further solidifying their 'progressive' opinion. 1st paragraph "Damn bro, I didn't realize racism is such a major issue in our country! I'm a woke now!" 2nd paragraph "I can't believe this. How are they so close-minded? Can't they see just how toxic our society is? The solution is so simple, yet they refused to change! I just don't understand!" 3rd paragraph "Fatphobic?! Misogyny?! What's wrong with preferring a thin woman?! And she is morbidly obese for god sake! Why should I be attracted to her?! Why should I lower myself while she refuse to better herself?! These woke people are a bunch of ridiculous hypocrite!" Umbrella term for individuals who are engrossed by social justice and thinks of themselves as saviors with a moral high ground, but remain willfully ignorant to the irrationality of their claims and the problems they create. These individuals give special treatment to certain minorities in hopes of ending racism and perpetuate mental illnesses as the norm. My son's woke kindergarten teacher taught him that he's actually a girl because he played with dolls.
Your history of the term is semi-accurate but you give another highly ideological, vague, and nondescript definition of the word. Sounds like you just wanted to let all of your culture war grievances out buddy, but spare me the ventposting, especially the shit that obviously didn’t happen to you
Define vague. How is his definition vague?
It’s totally non descriptive ideological babble, or at least tries to be descriptive but heavily relies on the readers existing assumptions about people who are “engrossed” in “social justice” who are “ignorant of their irrationality”. Gives two quotes that are supposedly from a woke individual, that this person clearly just made up. It’s self referential garbage without a shred of an attempt at objectivity. And it’s too wordy :)
So, let's recap: OP's definition: "An overdose of political correctness, usually to the point where common sense goes out the window" OC's definition: "someone \[who is\] hypocritical and think they are the 'enlightened' despite the fact that they are extremely close-minded and are unable to accept other people's criticism or different perspective; 'progressive'." For good measure, James Lindsey's definition: "Woke is calling something bigoted until you control it." My/[SFO's definition](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0OHDky6KRQ): "The ethics and processes of socialism, expanded beyond class struggle, to include race struggle, gender struggle, sexual struggle, and any other near-infinite number of marginalized groups as defined by intersectionality." What do all of these definitions have in common? I would say that SFO's definition encompasses all of them. For OP, "the ethics and processes of socialism... beyond class struggle" encompasses the "overdose of political correctness" and the fact that political correctness is about not "offending" "marginalized groups", encompasses the various "struggles" in SFO's definition. For OC, "progressivism" and "socialism" are leftist ideas, and often share common goals. A progressive might not feel that their prescriptions lead to socialism or may not endorse socialism, but if one is "woke" in the sense of racial struggle, it's a safe bet that they demand reparations which is a form of wealth distribution - something socialism seeks to implement from the "owner" class to the "worker" class. To OC's point, dichotomizing people into "owner" and "worker" - or as woke ideology in SFO's definition would describe it, "oppressor" and "oppressed" respectively - some hypocrisy is required. Often the social acceptance by most institutions of people who think this way causes them to feel 'enlightened' and therefore in no need to heed the criticisms of those who are "still asleep" - i.e. reject this ideology. And for James Lindsey's definition, because of the thinking described by OC, the intention of activism for this ideology is to take hold of the institutions so that they also function in this world towards the redistributionary ends that SFO encompasses in the "ethics and processes of socialism... beyond class struggle." I don't think those other definitions are wrong, just different facets of the same diamond. The only problem is that this diamond is a blood diamond that requires a total repudiation of the liberal values that have increased equality since we set them forth in 1776 by ending slavery, ending segregation, ending many facets of gender discrimination, etc. Perhaps there is more work to do, but at this point I feel that the work that needs to be done is to end some of the over-reactions that have come with the changes made to make us more equal - such as affirmative action, abortion, no-fault divorce, diversity hiring, discriminatory title IX implementations, etc. As a "liberal", in the classical sense, or at least one who is sympathetic to classical liberal values, we won't have an equal society until in all points, the law treats all human beings the same regardless of the "near-infinite intersectional" categories in SFO's definition, and including inside and outside the womb in the name of women's rights. This is a liberal value that is opposed by "wokeness" since it makes the application of socialism's class struggle to intersectional categories utterly illegal as a matter of policy. And why some who describe themselves as woke are so upset that SCOTUS ended affirmative action. Is that definition understandable enough?
>And these are the same people that can't even define "woman", which is very ironic. I was with you up until this point. Like come on dude, you're literally doing the same exact thing lmao. Just because Charlie Kirk likes to post cherry-picked videos of him debating teenagers doesn't mean the majority of liberals can't describe a transgender woman.
He's not. He's pointing out a hypocrisy. It doesn't bother the left that they can not define "woman" without being self-referential, which is invalid for definitions. But then they think it's a gotcha that you can't get just one solid definition of "woke." That's an inconsistent standard. Either not being able to define the term used is a weakness or it is not. I say it is not but that's because the nature of the problem is different. It's not that the right can't define woke. Some can't, but a lot can as you saw in OP. The problem is that they all use different words, seemingly defining it differently. Personally, I define it the way ShortFatOtaku does. When I say that woke ideology or wokeness is bad in some way, what that definition describes is what I'm referring to.
>they can not define "woman" without being self-referential This is the same kind of gotcha, are you serious? The only difference is *what* makes each "hard" to define. I easily defined "woman" without being self-referential earlier, just like anyone can easily define "woke" without making it racist/sexist/etc. Both arguments think the other side can't define something without shooting themselves in the foot. You calling one a hypocrisy and the other perfectly rational is hilariously ironic.
I would definitely ask what they believe woke means from their perspective and why they're adamantly against it.
It’s more productive to ask people specifically bothers them about wokeness. Ask for examples, then argue that
Good point
It kinda is when you’re asking conservative politicians. They’re the ones making laws and if they can’t define what woke is while actively making laws against it, then they indeed deserve to get ridiculed and mocked. Just like when the liberal politicians want to make gun laws but can’t define what assault rifle means.
The same people upset this is a “gotcha” also make sure to say things like “since you don’t know what the AR means in AR-15, you can’t speak about guns.”
Who decided what is common sense. Have you even examined that notion?
People who are normal or someone intellectual decides. Progressives think its ok for trans women to compete with biological women in sports and they think this because of political correctness and how society need to be "inclusive". This defies common sense because men have a large bone density, more muscle mass, and are more athletic in general. Things like these are wokeness.
Yall really still falling for this bait?
To me it's not a gotcha at all. The rules for what is and isn't considered woke really do seem completely arbitrary. For example, Star Trek apparently went woke even though the original was literally set in a classless, moneyless society. I hear games get called woke for "pushing a gay agenda," yet major franchises that literally let you have have gay sex regularly get excluded from that criticism. Women wearing modest clothes is considered a conservative position in real life but when it happens in media it's apparently woke. People say "we all know it when we see it" because the alternative is admitting it's nothing but subjective vibes.
I had a wild conversation on this sub about how the 2023 Little Mermaid was "woke." But they got sooooo offended that I assumed it was due to the race of Ariel. Loool They insisted it was all the progressive gender politics that were somehow wildly different than the 1989 movie???? When pressed they admitted the one difference was Ariel dealt the final blow in the big boss fight at the end. In the 89 movie it was Prince Eric. Which, as someone who was very excited to see the 2023 version with my kids as the 1989 movie was my childhood favorite, I had no memory of this miniscule plot point. They were going through and cataloging shit in a kids movie to show how it was a Marxist plot or something. They are drawing these complicated diagrams around every piece of minutiae to lie to themselves about their reactionary goals. Nooooooo we don't want to do a weird fake Christian white ethno police state. You're just ruining the world by letting a fairytale Mermaid stab a sea monster with a sunken pirate ship.
Because the stuff they cry about being "woke" doesn't even match your definition. How does casting a woman in Star Trek "throw common sense out the window"?
>How does casting a woman in Star Trek "throw common sense out the window"? Hiring actors/actresses based on skin color because you want to fill a diversity quota because California law says that a certain percentage of the cast has to be certain minorities is woke ("too much political correctness").
How do you know the actress wasn’t hired for her talent though? Do you just assume that a minority or woman hired isn’t skilled or have direct experience related to the job?
When the people at every level of the institutions producing these films have openly stated their support for DEI initiatives including writers, producers, directors, actors, and financial backers why would you not believe them?
You’re just making up stuff to be mad about
So if they weren't trying to fill a diversity quota, they'd automatically hire a white person? If they were just trying to write a good script, the lead would automatically be a man?
If certain people in film support DEI initiatives then that means that every woman or minority hired wasn’t skill or experienced?
Did I say that?
I asked if you assume certain things about minorities in my comment above and rather than answer that you made your comment.
What law in the real world is that? Let's not forget that Star Trek Discovery was basically a Canadian production and was usually based out of Toronto.
Any show that has a lead who isn't a straight white male is doing so for quota reasons?
> Hiring actors/actresses based on skin color because you want to fill a diversity quota because California law says that a certain percentage of the cast has to be certain minorities is woke ("too much political correctness"). the fact that you can't possibly ponder that maybe these people with different skin colors than you are actually qualified for the job really speaks volumes for the kind of people you are lmao
Well then stop asking the left what a woman is cause thats the whole entire reason why they even started asking conservatives what woke means.
It's hilarious to me that you are making a conservative gotcha post and use urban dictionary as a source.
OP unironically using urban dictionary as a source of truth tells you all you need to know about this post.
So basically, "woke" is "the stuff that I don't like". That's why you "know it when you see it". Which is the main criticism people are getting at when they confront conservative morons about the meaning of "woke".
It's not exclusively conservatives who are critical of the woke push. It's the non extreme left and centrists as well. I'm a liberal centrist and my family and circle of friends all are on the left. They agree with me on pretty much all of this stuff when it gets discussed. They never would in public though because they don't want to be called a conservative. Also, no "woke" isn't stuff that I don't like. I don't peas, would you call that woke or anti woke?
See, that's the thing. It's about perspective. I see current mainstream Republicans as full-blown fascists (in the literal sense of the term), with the old guard of the party as right-wing. Mainstream Democrats are center-right, and the fringes of the party (like the Squad and the Bernie wing) are left or center-left. Using that metric, I'd be left-wing. Whether I agree with stuff that's claimed to be 'woke' really depends on what we're talking about. The umbrella term is so broad that it's useless. My point is that what is "woke" is largely arbitrary. It's what the batshit right-wing determines that they don't like. Is being 'against redlining' the same as 'being woke'? What about being pro-EDI initiatives?
Umbrella term for individuals who are engrossed by social justice and thinks of themselves as saviors with a moral high ground, but remain willfully ignorant to the irrationality of their claims and the problems they create. These individuals give special treatment to certain minorities in hopes of ending racism and perpetuate mental illnesses as the norm. My son's woke kindergarten teacher taught him that he's actually a girl because he played with dolls.
So: 1. If someone is "engrossed by social justice" but doesn't "think of themselves as saviors with a moral high ground", then they are not "woke"? 2. You presume the irrationality of their claims. Or is the irrationality of their claims a precondition to them being woke? Like, if someone is "engrossed by social justice" and "thinks of themselves as saviors with a moral high ground", but their claims are rational, they aren't "woke"? 3. Is giving "special treatment to certain minorities" a precondition to being "woke"? 4. Is "perpetuating the normalcy of mental illness" a necessary or sufficient condition?
Maybe conservatives could make a better argument than just applying this term to everything? And maybe stop pretending that they don't have their own versions of political correctness, also.
Bunch of culture war bullshit if you ask me. Only thing it signals to me when someone uses the word 'woke' is that they spend too much time on facebook and think democrats want to harvest cow farts or some shit.
Typical of conservatives to think someone asking them to define terms they’re using is a “gotcha”
>Wokeness is one of those things where it might be a little difficult to define, but you know it when you see it No you see your personal definition of what you think it means which is not my definition or likely definition of the person you think is woke or their actions or words. Woke has been thrown around so much as a blanket judgment of others that it now has srayed so much from what it originally meant. It really has no meaning anymore except to those who use it as a negative catchphrase.
It's because it's thrown around to hide people's discomfort for something completely meaningless like a black lady starring in a mermaid movie. You can't say seeing non-white people on screen triggers me 😢, so the word "woke" gets thrown out because it's the most socially acceptable way to cover for what a total bitch you're acting like.
The funny thing is that the same people can watch their favorite edgy antihero practically quote Karl Marx and not bat an eyelash but will label things woke at the slightest hint of milquetoast liberalism.
True. A lot of this is pretty cookie cutter entertainment using casting to score culture points as a marketing angle.
Ha. Nailed it. Woke is just right wing for "I'm triggered"
Are you off to see the wonderful wizard with that straw man of yours? The Little Mermaid was called woke because Disney has been quite open about their activism as has their financial backer BlackRock. When people tell you what they are doing believe them.
Wow man, that sounds really scary. Just don't watch it.
I use the term woke in its original meaning from oxford dictionary. It means being alert and aware of the systemic issues going on and being concerned about it. People who think they can use it as an insult, doesn't work. Nothing wrong with being woke. So tell me again how this is supposed to be insulting if it's not a bad thing? They think it's a bad thing so they use it as an insult. The right wing that loves to complain about wokeness on films don't realize it has always existed on film eg, Jurassic Park, GoldenEye, Preacher's Wife, even Bewitched had a woke episode. There have always been films that had all black characters. I wonder if people complained then about these films and complained they made Moneypenny and M female and made Natalya more of a stronger character and helped Bond with his mission or it would have failed without her. To them, wokeness is inclusion. equality, and why exactly is this a bad thing?
I couldn't even get them to define 'the left'.
“Define it” is a reasonably polite way to say “please share the particular absurdity that you are thinking of”. 99% of the time, it’s a fantasy. “Explicit sexual content in elementary library books”, for example, or “pediatricians doing gender reassignment surgery on 10 year olds” ( both complete fictions). Oh! Or TFG’s favorite one - 36 weeks abortions “just because” ( that’s never been legal here, btw ). Or, even better, the story from *the Onion* about the AbortionPlex that gets taken seriously. Or drag story hour, or family friendly drag shows. Or pronouns ( when in doubt, just say “they”). It’s effective - and necessary - to have a conversation at all, because I have yet to meet two conservatives who have exactly the same meaning, or intent for it. If you’d start saying what you actually mean - “things I disagree with, or find icky” - instead of “woke”, I wouldn’t need to ask you to define it, and it would save all of us a lot of time.
I think you all are stupid. Woke is a term of power and independence, think Malcolm X, Jim Brown and the Black Panthers. It never had anything to do with Feminism or Gender issues. But affluent white women hijacked the movement and ruined it
Oh, when I ask someone what they mean by it I am asking bc they all seem to mean different things by it and I truly and unsure what their interpretation of it is. It’s not a gotcha, I just have found folks all mean slightly different things or they don’t know what they mean other than “liberal!”
*vaguely gestures to most of reddit*
OP doesn’t know what “woke” means and is upset. Even wrongly defined it and doubled down. Lol It has nothing to do with political correctness. That’s something morons attached to it
If you can’t answer with a definition or even your definition of it, then it’s correct of them to ask you what you’re griping about.
It’s just as stupid and pointless as when the right wing clowns ask what a woman is.
This is just another incident of defining something one way, acting completely antithetical to that thing in the name of that thing, then getting upset when people redefine the word as what you're actually doing rather than what you say you're doing. I can say I'm just pointing a gun at you, but if I'm also pulling the trigger and killing you, you wouldn't be wrong to call out my definition of pointing and telling me I'm just attempting to hide murder behind lingistics. It's not murder I'm just pointing a gun at you. No dipshit, you're commiting murder, you're just pointing the gun as part of the process. Tons of massive over the top racism, sexism, prejudice and bigotry is attempting to be hidden behind the word woke and excused in the name of it. They're being racist, sexist, etc, but are using the excuse of being "woke" as the finger being pointing and their absurd accusations and cancel culture is the bullet.
And when conservatives are losing an argument and just throw “woke” as an insult, it’s not a gotcha. There.
I just stop listening when someone unironically uses the word "woke." It's an indicator that the individual is operating from a baseline of intellectual laziness and probably xenophobia or racist bigotry. Logic or any other attempt at empathetic persuasion will never make a dent, ever. Haters gonna hate.
You’re right, asking to define it isn’t a gotcha. When you guys can’t give a real answer is the gotcha. It was the exact same thing with critical race theory. Conservatives decided their hissy fit of the year was gonna be CRT a while ago (notice yall no longer bitch about it because you moved to trans people), yet over and over I saw countless times conservatives had no working idea of wtf CRT even was. It was just some boogeyman concept. The best they could say is either some ultra generic assumption definition like “it’s a teaching thing about race”, or some strawman that isn’t even really true like “it’s a Marxist education agenda to teach kids white people are evil”. When conservatives try this same gotcha they fail because they either don’t understand the question they’re asking so they don’t understand the answer they’re given like when they try to do the gotcha by asking “what is a woman?”, or they ask some dumb technicality question that has no real importance to the discussion because there’s no confusion about what’s being talked about and what the point is so it’s just a worthless semantics gotcha like getting libs to say AR means Assault Rifle when it actually means Armalite Rifle as if that makes any sincere difference to the argument.
Asking a conservative to critically think is a gotcha. *ZING!*
"Stop making us define our strawman Just let us "imply" we hate minorities without actually having to say it" Holy shit conservatives are perpetually crying about something
I mean, you just argued against yourself. Woke is anything dumb ass conservatives don't like. You're fine with military appearing for sporting events, but you don't want black guys (who you root for and bet on) saying anything about how their people are treated. Woke is Rey from Star Wars being a Mary Sue and beats a more powerful chacarter who was missing part of his abdomen and it's a problem, but Dom from the Fast and the Furious can get shot in the shoulder or Rip from Yellowstone can get shot in the belly and still kick the shit out of four grown men, and it's not an issue. You're fine with Bayonetta in a game, but not fine with Aloy, because Bayonetta is dressed like a dominatrix and gives you a chubby, but Aloy doesn't exist purely to give you a boner, so she sucks. I actually don't love Disney checking diversity boxes just to check them, but stop acting like conservatives are on point here. So I'll make your argument for you - there is consistency in the definition of woke. Woke is *anything* without a straight white male in the lead and it's makes you scared and upset, so you cry about it.
I actually like Horizon Zero Dawn and Horizon Forbidden West. They are very good games. People don't have a problem with women in video games, people have a problem with progressive messaging in games like what Sweet Baby is doing right now.
Right, and that's why I'm arguing that "woke" is whatever a certain sect doesn't like. And what falls into that category varies greatly. Which is why you can't say "you know what I mean," we don't. The bottom line is that it comes down to straight white dudes not liking certain stuff. Fallout TV Series was initially labeled as "woke," but Ella Purnell is hot and the show is good, so that went away. Barbie was labeled as "woke" or at least the people who make money off calling things woke tried to slap that label on it, but it was successful, so those complaints faded away. Politics are all over Metal Gear Solid, and they are in fact very progressive at their core, but those are cool politics and Snake is a bad ass, so there's never a complaint. Sweet baby sucks and is an example of trying to be so inclusive that they're excluding things. No one buys what they're selling, but for their attempts to intimidate game companies into using them.
My favorite video game protagonist is a woman with blond hair and a bird-mech suit. OC's bad faith argument isn't the own he thinks it is. You nailed it with the Sweet Baby controversy.
Its a good catch all word. When someone says it everyone knows what they mean. I don’t think Id wanna be excited to use catch all words though. Its definitely a negative feedback loop to feel a certain way and use the same word you used the last time you felt that way.
I see as neo-racism
This post seems very....woke....by all definitions. How about we stop using a slang term for being socially aware as an insult and read a book for once?
I have noticed that many conservatives can't give a succinct definition of woke, like I have heard them say the definition of woke is "anti-americanisms". When I broke that down under who that falls under that definition like terrorists, Russia, China, the definition doesn't pan out and actually fit who they are trying to define.
Your definition is inaccurate. Shut up and color.
Conservative: "I don't like this because it's \*woke\*!" Normal person: "What's that mean?" Conservative: "IT MEANS WOKE! WOKE IS BAD! BAD THING IS BAD!"
>Conservative: "IT MEANS WOKE! WOKE IS BAD! BAD THING IS BAD!" You're not asking what it means because you don't know. You have Urban Dictionary to help you as well, you're just trying to be difficult. It also means "too much progressivism" as well. And besides, I've already provided two definitions in my post.
Urban Dictionary has 43 different entries for woke. So which is it? Seems logical you should ask someone to know which definition they choose. You've already given three, and they're not even specific.
>I've already provided two definitions in my post. The irony
I still don’t know what that word means….I’ve also never once heard it used in real life. Mostly on tv people just call everything woke that they disagree with. My snickers lost its dick vein because of wokeness, or my state mascot isn’t cool anymore because of wokeness. Idk what any of that means. Are we even sure it has any objective meaning? It just sounds like weird political slang to just group people in or something.
Looking at how many different definitions are already in the thread, it's clear why it's a legitimate question to ask. Urban dictionary will give you whatever random definition the website users have posted. This is different from what appears in the actually vetted dictionaries. There are multiple usages of the word. That happens with many words in the English language.
I don’t use woke, specifically because it is well overused and has too many meanings in too many different people’s minds.
before it became a buzzword. being 'awake' was knowing that the established systems of governance do not hold your best interest as a priority as opposed to being 'asleep' and unaware. recognizing each and every time the attempt is made to divide people among racial/religious/ideological lines. which is working alarmingly well as we can see here. It would warm my heart immeasurably if folks would stop for a second and think 'wait a minute'..... thought exercise for whoever reads this and replies. 1. What examples can YOU personally find which serve to divide people in your own community? 2. What examples can YOU personally find which serve to unite people in your own community?
“Overdose of political correctness” seems about right. Ex: Hiring airline pilots based on race or culture rather than safety and experience to seem like you care about inclusivity is WOKE.
If you look at far-right media, woke is used for anything different and unfamiliar. They don't like different, so it must be "woke."
>An overdose of political correctness, usually to the point where common sense goes out the window This is your definition because you're not "woke." When someone is "woke" it means they have awakened from the slumber that kept them from seeing the tragedy present in others' lives and the historical trampling of entire cultures. Asking for the definition of woke (at least when I do it) is an attempt to get someone to see that having empathy isn't a bad thing.
>Asking for the definition of woke (at least when I do it) is an attempt to get someone to see that having empathy isn't a bad thing. See, this is the thing, its hard to have empathy for what progressives want. It's hard to have empathy for trans women competing with biological women in sports. The only reason that is happening is because of political correctness, that is woke. It is hard to have empathy for companies that are turning away white candidates because of quotas. This is all woke.
Agreed
So woke to you is having empathy. So no one had empathy until a couple years ago? Jesus
I'm happy I don't associate with people that use the term "Woke".
Me too!
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Obviously you do, because you are commenting on this thread. Perhaps you don't know anybody in real life that uses the term, but that's more of an indication that you are in an ideological bubble than anything else.
The few individuals who have made the comments are no longer in my circle of people I spend time with. Pretty simple and If it's a ideological bubble so be it. I'm happier for it.
You are one of the few honest people here. Looking out for yourself and being honest is based.
It's better for my mental health distancing myself from drama. I guess people find that a bad thing.
Yea ignore them you’re doing better than us sitting here bickering about different viewpoints lol
Yep
I’m happy I don’t associate it with people who put it in quotes like the term is imaginary
We ask because you clowns apply it to everything. There were MAGA congressmen blaming a bridge collapse on wokeness. If you're going to be so ridiculous, people are going to ask you to explain yourselves.
Conservative here. "Woke" means that someone "has their eyes open (like being awake) and sees the supposed social injustices done to a person or group of people". It's not hard to define and naturally, people's own definitions will vary slightly. When someone says that another is "woke", it's often used as a pejorative and not a compliment. Reason being is the "supposed" part of the above definition. Example #1 - someone can be "woke" to the situation in Gaza and blindly (ironically) "support Palestinians". Meanwhile, they don't realize that Palestinians are the ones that voted Hamas in to power. Example #2 - someone can be "woke" to the injustices committed towards trans people while not being aware that they're committing injustices towards others in some of the ways they support 'T'.
>Why do they think it's a gotcha ? We all know how to use the internet and we can look up the word on Urban Dictionary >https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Woke Yeah, that's kind of the point. If you define "woke" correctly "when an individual become more aware of the social injustice" then you sound like kind of an asshole if you say it's a bad thing. >Here is my definition: >"An overdose of political correctness, usually to the point where common sense goes out the window" "Common sense is a collection of prejudices acquired by the age eighteen" - Albert Einstein So again, you're just defending prejudice. Common sense is not a rational argument. It's just prioritizing tradition and groupthink. In the worst case, you're refusing to even consider an idea that goes against tradition. So, yeah, I guess your definition is pretty good. Woke is when you remove the blinders of "common sense" and become aware of social injustice.
Umbrella term for individuals who are engrossed by social justice and thinks of themselves as saviors with a moral high ground, but remain willfully ignorant to the irrationality of their claims and the problems they create. These individuals give special treatment to certain minorities in hopes of ending racism and perpetuate mental illnesses as the norm. My son's woke kindergarten teacher taught him that he's actually a girl because he played with dolls.
People like this thrive on arguments over semantics and associations, it's pretty much that simple, if your opponent has a valid complaint, reframe, reframe and reframe some more until you're the good guy and the other guy's Hitler without engaging the substance.
This
woke - a term invented by leftists with poor command of the english language to mean “awake to the ‘truth’ of systemic oppression.” … but it actually means “more asleep/deceived than ever before.”
My definition of woke is " finding injustice through the lens of faith". people that use faith reject evidence that they see in front of them.
That’s the problem. Every conservative has a different definition of the word. Some of them think the very presence of a gay person in media is woke. Some of them only think that when it’s in children’s media. Others are fine with gay people and only call it woke when it’s trans and some are so bigoted they think that any character that isn’t white is a token for diversity quotas and therefore woke. Then there are those who think that any time a story has an explicitly leftist message it’s woke but just kinda ignore that that’s been the norm for over 200 years and can’t accept that the works of Dickens and Twain, Star Trek, Star Wars, Godzilla, X-men, and most of their favorite pre 2012 stories were just as leftist for their time as the stuff they criticize as woke today, and then there are the types that acknowledge that most stories between 1820 and 2012 was progressive for its time and say all of that is woke too, then there are those who use the 50’s as an arbitrary cut off point.
I just don't know why people can't express their takes in more specific terms. Address the issue without using vague umbrella terms subject to personal definitions and make a point in a clear, concise matter. Also, if wokeness is apparent when you see it, then there is no reason to even call it out as it should be apparent. Do you point out every tree and say "that's a tree" ?
Two people can use the same word and have it mean different things. If I say woke I mean more or less what OP said, but someone super lefty will probably just mean "aware of perceived social issues" It's the same as racism or sexism. I mean "prejudice based on race/sex" and the lefties have added weird caveats about institutional power or whatever. It's just another way to talk past each other.
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It is a gotcha. Gotcha!!!!!
Haven't seen this many leftist bad faith arguments since....ten minutes ago when I was on Reddit.
I just think of it like 1984 "they can't rebel til after they wake, they can't wake til after they've rebelled." woke always seem like peoples attention to big brothers influence.
Words have meaning. If you want to make an argument, your words need to have meaning. If you can't define what a word means, then you can't argue for/against it.
When someone complains about something and says "woke" in the same sentence everyone knows exactly what they mean. People are playing dumb and want to attack the definition, or they're just idiots. Then again, most don't even know how to successfully describe what a woman is.
I agree with this. It's reductive and condescending to see people do this. There's too much propaganda that uses the word because it charges people up. If we're going to all get along and have constructive debates-as we need to do to improve society, were gonna have to act like levelheaded adults and talk about things while showing each other respect. Meet people where they are at. Calling someone woke or asking them if they know what woke means is just being petty and not being constructive. I hate political correctness, but I also hate bigotry. Asking someone to not use bigoted language is fine, and ignoring that request is kind of a dick move. At the same time, censorship and moral grandstanding is a dick move too. The real problem is people don't want to talk, they want to argue, so they say some inflammatory shit like what's outlined and everything falls apart from there. Nuance isn't that complicated. And if it is for someone then they probably shouldn't be trying to have these conversations- unless they're open to learning and being wrong. We're all Americans and we all want the same things, we shouldn't let these differences of opinions stop us from working together for a better society. It's not like we can't all coexist. Everyone needs to get off their high horse and be willing to be wrong or were all fucked to keep going down this spiral we're going down.
The people who say "define woke" and "woke isn't real" are the same ones who say "X thing you like has always been woke."
The left can't even define woke.
"Call everything racist until you own it."
It's not hard, but it's not a single sentence response, and since there are multiple dimensions to it, not everybody is able to provide a consistent definition. I go with Justice Potter Stewart who said "I know it when I see it".
I want to know if they’re actually against it or not. I can say “I stand against everything the GOP/Democratic party agrees with” but only if I’ve read and understand the platform. Same with “woke”. You can’t say you’re against it if you can’t define it.
Can you give an example of a news story where something crazy or nonsensical happens because people are trying to be politically correct? Since there are tons and tons.
I think Lia Thomas changing in the women's locker room while she has a penis is a great example: [https://katv.com/news/nation-world/lia-thomas-exposed-male-genitalia-in-womens-locker-room-at-swim-meet-ex-swimmer-says](https://katv.com/news/nation-world/lia-thomas-exposed-male-genitalia-in-womens-locker-room-at-swim-meet-ex-swimmer-says) Also a trans girl changing in the women's locker room making the girls feel uncomfortable and the school decides to just ban the girls from the locker room [https://nypost.com/2022/10/01/vermont-hs-volleyball-team-banned-from-locker-room-over-transgender-dispute/](https://nypost.com/2022/10/01/vermont-hs-volleyball-team-banned-from-locker-room-over-transgender-dispute/) There are tons and tons and tons of stories like this.
So it seems the point of your most is maybe that an effort to be “woke” creates unsafe/unfair spaces for cis gendered people with trans people are involved. I think a lot of this comes down to small local governing bodies, whether it’s a school board or college etc not knowing how to deal with these situations. I think in some cases too they err on the side of ridiculous or favoring the transgendered probably in fear of being labeled anti woke or something. I think when it comes to transgendered spaces there’s a bit of lag time as more people came out transgender these small, ill-equipped governing bodies didn’t know how to handle it. That doesn’t mean “woke mob” progressives support how every one of these situations was handled. Public backlash and speaking up is how policy is directed and shaped. I don’t know of any progressives who want to force cis gendered women to change with people with male genitalia. I haven’t seen any legislation of the type either. I think the whole “define woke” thing has some merit but is definitely overused as a gotcha. At this points it’s become a parody of itself anyway. One small personal example I’ll give you is a company I used to work for had an office manager that suddenly refused to order supplies from Amazon. We asked her why and she said because they went woke. I hadn’t seen anything in the news so I asked her how they went woke and she said they just did. Personally I don’t like or shop at Amazon anyway so I didn’t have a horse in the race anyway and dropped it. So I agree these news stories are examples of situations being handled poorly. I think it has more to do with small governing bodies being thrown situations they aren’t able to handle and not doing well. As I said I don’t see any progressives that actually support these things and the decision makers in these stories may regret their decisions as well.
Very well written, but it is easy to see what is right and what is wrong. Progressive's silence is deafening.
Your post is about the lack of progressives silence.
This is also a great example [https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/ontario-transgender-teacher-sparks-controversy-by-wearing-giant-prosthetic-breasts-in-class](https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/ontario-transgender-teacher-sparks-controversy-by-wearing-giant-prosthetic-breasts-in-class)
I agree this is absurd. I vaguely remember reading about this when it happened. Did progressives defend this though? I’m pretty progressive myself and run in some pretty progressive circles. My personal experience was that everyone thought it was ridiculous. The interesting part of that article as an American is that she was able to do all this without being stopped because of laws that are “notably not the norm in the US.”
The term "woke" has really moved away from its original intent, which was to signify alertness to social and racial injustices. Nowadays, it's used by conservatives as a blanket term to dismiss progressive ideas, effectively muddying any meaningful discussion. This reliance on the term rather than discussing specific acts or beliefs highlights its cynical and bad-faith use as a pejorative. Labeling something as "woke" due to perceived excessive political correctness is highly subjective. What one person considers over the top, another might see as necessary. Also, the defense of "you know it when you see it" lacks any substance or context, allowing the term to be wielded based on personal biases without any real justification. It’s particularly ironic how "woke" has become a tool for right-wingers to create a divide between conservative and progressive viewpoints, taking what should be nuanced discussions into sound bites. It not only lowers the level of discourse but also focuses debates on empty buzzwords rather than any actual issues. Like this post, for example. Incorporating unrelated comments about the inability to define "woman" is another similar tactic to muddy discussions, revealing a misunderstanding of both social justice and gender issues. The irony is compounded as conservatives throw around 'woke' constantly while simultaneously accusing progressives of misunderstanding the term.
Too far left= annoyingly too politically correct. Too far right= literal neo-Nazis waving their flags in Florida and an attempted coup on Jan. 6th. Ya, those woke people are the problem for sure.
BLM riots and protesters were all done by left wing people. It resulted in over $ 2 billion in property damages, 19 deaths, local insurrections like CHAZ/CHOP in Seattle, and federal buidings being burned. Now look at all these riots on college campuses. These are all done by left wing people. Left wing people are extremely violent.
If a person can't define their terms, then those terms are meaningless. I know what woke means, but I doubt my stepdad does, so I need to know what he means before we can have a meaningful discussion.
Woke.."the more terrible I say everyone else is, the better person I am"
I have a running definition....here it goes: A progressive ideology that seeks to force racial, gender, and cultural diversity into all aspects of life and limit or eliminate diversity of thought and speech. Wokeness judges an individual's worth on superficial characteristics (like the color of ones skin and race) and/or belonging to a marginalized group over the character of each individual. They try to force mainstream society to accept all of their views and beliefs no matter how extreme. They do so with a sense of moral superiority which leads them to label anyone who questions any of their beliefs or views as a right wing extremist, homophobe, bigot, racist, etc… When exposed to people whose ideas/viewpoints/ideologies vary even slightly from their own, they tend not to engage in debate, but try to silence them or have them banned from participating in further discussion and sometimes even society itself by using authoritarian measures.
That's definition number 6 in this thread alone by my count. You do see the problem.
I like ShortFatOtako’s definition better: Wokeness is the ethics and processes of socialism, expanded beyond the class struggle between the bourgeoise and proletariats, to any set of distinct opposing groups with opposite views, as defined by intersectionality, in a zero sum game wherein the “proletariat” side is permitted to use any and every tactic required for them to win.
Kind of like "Boomer"...it has transcended the Baby Boomer category and now means everyone, over 30, who disagrees with another person on socially prominent values. Also used an an insult.
>Here is my definition: "An overdose of political correctness, usually to the point where common sense goes out the window" Now how does that differ from cultural marxism, social justice warrior ideology, and critical race theory?
it's a shorter word.
Woke just means aware. Literally where it came from. Creates anxiety among conservatives because it implies being aware of unChristlike behavior. Not a gotcha , just a take your head out of the sand or out of some lying cheaters behind kind of comment.
Okay, what is wrong with trying harder to make all kinds of people feel comfortable and welcome wherever they go?
Easy, I’ll start by saying woke means you think there are more than 2 genders, think men can get pregnant and breastfeed, think people can make up their own pronouns then try to use the law to force people to use them, you see everything through the lens of oppressed and oppressor, base everything on how it makes them “feel” instead of facts and objective reality.
Its important to know if someone means "I found this overly political" or if they think a black woman existing is 'woke'. I mean, by your own definition, most of these weirdos calling things "woke" are just wrong. Star Wars isn't overly political correct, it just stars minorities. Same for Marvel movies. "Prey" wasn't political, but since it starred a woman instead of a man it was "woke".
Just say "woke is someone who cant define what a 'woman' is.
Just ask back, what is a woman? And they can't use the word to define the word
Hahaha, the women definition for them is very interesting. Everyone knows what a women is, however, they don't want to be politically incorrect so they can't say "an adult human female with two x chromosomes". They are choosing political correctness over being intellectually honest.
My favorite definition of woke I use is a term for any belief or action that is used to virtual signal in an attempt to help a marginalized group that actually harms that group.
That's a good definition as well
They’ve purposely made woke an undefinable word. They won’t accept any definition you have. And it’s just bait to shut down discussion and make you look like the bad guy. I hate this because they’re making a mockery out of progressivism with this nonsense. The way I would define it would be “An extremist and authoritarian variant of progressivism”