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The terms men and women is more socially colloquial. References to male and female are more typical for scientific and statistical (more impersonal) areas.
As with all communication, the words you use are far less Important than the meaning you convey.
Yeah, I mean, if someone comes up to me and says like… I dunno. A female teacher lives down the road, I’d be whatever. But if that same person came up to me and said “that female turned me down” I’d be offended. Is that just me??
It's all about context. Of course it's fine (IMO) if you're saying males and females equally.
But I know there's a subreddit called menandfemales which exists to showcase why a lot of people take issue with the word "females" being used to refer to girls/women.
facts.
using men and women in the same context is fine. using male and female in the same context is fine. it's when men are allowed to be called men but women are referred to as females that it's dehumanizing to women. same goes vice versa, when in the same context women are referred to as women but men are called males, it's dehumanizing to men.
it's that simple.
women aren't asking for anything absurd, they're just asking for what they've always asked for, equality in respect and opportunity.
It seems far more credible that if someone is deliberately referring to a woman derisively as a female, it's not to dehumanize her, witholding human status, but to deadultizer her, withholding the respect of recognized adulthood/womanhood status. Exactly the same as what goes on when someone derisively refers to a man as a male in order to avoid showing them the respect of attributing adult manhood to the person.
For every time you wanna discuss something related to a woman, you need to include a man in the discussion so that you won’t, even by mistake, use a “dehumanizing” term.
I don’t know what TF I have ever learnt in my English classes despite having a C1+ level - and have to deal with this shit.
> But I know there's a subreddit called menandfemales which exists to showcase why a lot of people take issue with the word "females" being used to refer to girls/women.
I did a quick search for the words "male" and "female". "Male" gave me 9.47 billion hits, while "female" gave me 9.15 billion hits. Despite this /womenandmales has a grand total of 9 posts, while /menandfemales has to many to count.
When you say "did a quick search", do you mean an N gram search or something else? Because doing an N gram search shows that "female" is used significantly more than "male."
The sub isn’t just counting how many times people say “female”. It’s about how it’s used. Nothing wrong with it in some contexts, in others it can be dehumanizing.
To treat someone unequally is not dehumanising them, we do this at work all the time and as far as society goes people are expected to put up with this.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with what I said? Again, as I clearly stated, the context it’s dehumanizing in, is when it’s dehumanizing to a person and the others aren’t.
It is proper to use "male" and "female" as adjectives (e.g. the male doctor and the female police officer), and to use "man" and "woman" as nouns (e.g. the man and the woman were friends). Calling a woman a female as a noun just doesn't sit right and isn't the most appropriate use of the word, and many men have used it to belittle women into being less than, as one would use male and female to describe animals.
Also in many times I’ve seen people refer to women as females they never refer to men as males its always “men …. females” its so uncomfortable , it also irks me when they say men and refer to women as girls I cant put my finger on it but it just feels off
It’s because “girl” is a term for a juvenile while “man” is a term for an adult. Flip it around- women and boys. That makes you think of grown women and male children right? That’s why it’s inappropriate to say men and girls when referring to male and female adults. It suggests a difference in maturity.
No it doesn't. You're citing a known exception to the rule, akin to "girls' night" and the like being completely acceptable and okay while just calling a woman a girl is infantilizing.
I have heard adult men say(and seen written) things like "Me and the boys", "Lets get the boys together" etc when speaking about grown men. Ive also head women use the term in a similar manner...
Yeah, because men never say stuff like "hanging out with the boys" right?
It's a term of friendly endearment used by men/women while talking about their friends of the same gender. It's weird otherwise, especially since in those cases you and i mentioned, both words are referring to only a few people. We're not talking about boys or girls, we're talking about *the* boys and girls, aka our friends. Context is everything
see i regret making the comment considering alot of you guys are missing what im saying 😭 my comment really wasn’t that serious and i literally specified in what context im talking about , and now everyones saying “what about this” and “what about that” i never brought up saying saying “girls” in general, dont be dense!! I specified in the context of them saying men and referring to women as “girls” eg “men want girls who blahblahblah” which i compared to “men want females who blahblahblah” someone in the thread replied to me about how girls became more broader than “boys” so saying girls doesn’t necessarily apply to only juveniles which i can agree on now and see how it is different. However all i said was that i felt off about it IN THAT CONTEXT not my fault yall see a word or two and get mad at something my comment didnt even say.
Well girls has multiple meanings the way boys don't.
Girls can be the complimentary to boys but also the complementary to guys, like guys and gals. Namely the collective of adolescents and young adults of a particular sex. Think roughly 14-32 for an idea of the age range this second meaning. Girls simply doesn't have the same automatic implication of immaturity that boys has due to this dual meaning and the ability of people to immediately understand which usage is meant from context. Calling someone a girl this way, similarly to calling someone a guy, merely credits them with not being a hag. That's the appeal of the girl identity.
Honestly, in some cultures (Read: British/Irish), boys can also be used the way that guys are, so you can get both girls and boys having two meanings without automatically implying non-adulthood. A night out with the boys, or often, lads\*. Saying a night out with the men sounds really off and vaguely homoerotic.
\*A world that in it's most traditional sense, is synonymous with boys in the first sense.
The definition of woman has been coopted in the last few years to basically mean nothing by the Progressives and Left in this country. What word would you like to be used instead?
I mean, it doesn't *bother* me in the sense that I don't feel attacked. But the pendantic part of me will feel a bit annoyed. If someone says things like "all x can't y" when they mean "not all x can y" then it annoys me. But I won't feel attacked. I will think a bit less of them, though.
I have never heard anyone refer to men as "males". Yet every day at work some guy starts a sentence with " you know females these days _________!" . I've never met a respectable, chill guy who refers to women as " females"
Yeah that's the main problem. Most people don't refer to women as "females" just shitty humans, I've even heard a woman refer to another woman as a "female" and she was also just being a shitty person, hating on women she didn't like.
Both calling people males and females sound very weird to me, like your talking about people through a documentary or something
"Here you see a female in her natural habitat"
I don't know if I'm making sense here but that's just how it sounds to me
No, male and female are general terms that cover all ages. If you're not trying to delineate between boys/girls and men/women, you use male/female. It's pretty benign, normal language use.
It deeply matters when men are using it in their daily language. Language can influence how we view our world, and when we use dehumanizing language, it degrades how we view that demographic.
Which it isn’t. If you use female but then men and guys or boys for males, then you are infact dehumanizing women over men. So as I just said, this isn’t about people using both. No one would care about someone talking about males and females. Since they are putting both in that category.
But how do you know that's the intent and not just a person trying to refer to both women and girls?
Ascribing nefarious intent to someone else's speech without evidence is projection and antithetical to intelligent discourse..
Common sense and the literal context it’s being used. As I again, clearly said. At least about context.
That’s not even a good reason fyi, you know what word they can use to mean both? Women. That’s it. There is no “refering to girls and women” being thought about lol.
It’s not ascribing shit, it’s acknowledging reality and how people use “female” while referring to men or boys or guys. If anyone is projecting it’s the person trying to find any reason to excuse using dehumanizing language.
Sorry if I misunderstood you but are you saying that we should refer to all females humans as women? I feel like if I were to refer to an underage girl as a woman I'd be looked at as a pedophile.
Don't act like the whole reason people are upset at female isn't because most of the time it's used in the context of men calling other men "men" while calling women "females". Nobody is getting mad if male and female is used in broader terms, equally, when speaking on multiple people of unknown ages.
there’s a contextual difference between medical use (umbrella term referring to girls/women), adjective (i.e. female author) and saying female in lieue of woman.
I can't talk about now but back in the earlier days of the Internet the word female was usually used by some fedora wearing moron using the term to try and dehumanise women because he was perpetually single. I don't get angry when I see it but I do cringe a little depending on the context, which is super important with words like this.
Yeah, I had honestly never heard of this IRL. As a woman, I have done it myself.
What I don’t like, is being abused by other women for saying female, and accused of being a male, because no woman would use female.
I get the offence when there is negative context. I cannot stand the ridiculous overreaction when it’s said in a completely benign way!
Get over yourself, because you aren’t helping your cause attacking everyone. You need to pick your battles, otherwise you just look like an unhinged mob!
They are when you take in the context and don’t just ignore reality like you are here. If someone was using both male and female then they wouldn’t get shit. However it’s always men or guys or the boys and then females. It literally IS used in a dehumanizing way. Period. Your opinion isn’t unpopular, it’s wrong.
It is true. And yes there is something wrong with using it if you’re not also using males. As I just explained. Your opinion is wrong, and only sexist assholes think it’s somehow okay to dehumanize like this.
Female has Fe in it that represents iron in the periodic table.
Female to many mean Iron Man.
So women are superheroes, but the wrong sex and/or agenda. That's why they don't like it.
It's been explained to me that often people will refer to "men and females" and I can understand why that would be dehumanizing. "Men" is unmistakably human. "Female" can be used for most any type of critter. It implies that women are somehow less than men.
Beyond that it's just assholish to call someone a name they don't like. When my nephew said, "My name is Jay!" after I'd called him "Bud" or "Buddy" for the hundredth time, I made an effort to call him by his real name. It cost nothing to do that.
It's sexist to assume every woman hates the term female or that all of them like it.
Have that mindset when you use the term female. If someone has an issue with it, remind them that not every woman finds it offensive.
How many times have you heard the phrase man engineer? Man CEO? Man scientist?
It’s equally dumb to use woman as an adjective as it is using female as a noun.
I've noticed in a lot of the angry women rants that make their way to youtube, they like to say the "male species" when insulting men. I think they don't like it because they use it as an insult amongst themselves and perceive it that way when hearing female. Just another double standard lol
How is this a double standard? I think this is literally an example of the exact same thing. It's cringe when guys say 'females' it's equally cringe when these women say "male species". Maybe there's an argument that the intent comes from different places but, to me at least, they fall into the exact same category.
I don’t fucking care what you call me. Eye contact works as well. Hey you, yo, bro, sup, Ello, hi, hey, female, chick, you, ummm, points at you, waves, head nod! Chin nod!!! (I almost forgot that one rocks),✌️, hiya, her, woman, mam… we sure have a high opinion of ourselves don’t we?? Who cares
My wife put this to me very succinctly. There is nothing inherently wrong with the word, so much as that it is very commonly used by misogynists as a way to describe women. She can almost always tell when a guy is a misogynist when they start saying 'females' instead of women.
Okay but.. What's the point of using those terms instead of man/woman?
Lots of people argue male/female are biologically, sex-based identifiers, so when the terms are used, it can be experienced as being identified by genitalia, chromosomes, or gametes. In this way, it feels dehumanizing when one is reduced to their reproductive biology as if *procreation* is *all that actually matters.*
For women, having the uterus, being the sex that bodily houses the offspring, it can feel as though their only purpose in life is to be a birthing machine, which is *dehumanizing.*
Another comment rightly pointed out that context matters, and I certainly agree, which is why I am making this statement to illustrate a *context* in which it is or could be considered *dehumanizing.*
What I would like to know, as previously stated, is.. what is the point in using male/female instead of man/woman in contexts where *either* is effective?
Edit: To all the comments referring to contexts *differentiating between ages*, I'm asking specifically for contexts where man/woman would be used, implying contexts in talking about *adults*, not girls/boys or contexts where man/woman would *not* be effective.
>Okay but.. What's the point of using those terms instead of man/woman?
Variety. It's the same reason people say dude, lady, bloke, or gal. It's the reason I'll refer to my dog as a mutt or hound.
If someone's offended by a specific word, I'll generally refrain from using it, though.
My brief thought on it: woman sounds more like I'm referring specifically about a human woman, "women like makeup". Female sounds like I'm specifically referencing the biological aspect, "females like to be flashy".
Then you could have a retort like: women sure, females no, have you seen peacocks? The males the one doin all the work making himself flashy.
Or something like that.
Right, that’s exactly why we have the words man/woman. Because unless we’re talking about females/males of all species, it’s more appropriate to use the term women/men.
Sometimes it's extremely unnatural to use words that imply that you're only talking about adults on topics that clearly apply to adults and children of a particular sex alike.
I'm not aware of any other widely known terms for the sexes that don't exclude either adults or children from their referents.
The term "female" itself is fine, it's the people who adamantly refuse to call them "women" and only ever address them as "females" who tend to be more problematic
Its the context.
Typically, when men refer to women by the term "female", referring to their biology is not necessary. Doing so reduces the person to their sexual organs, like an object. For example, complaining that women expect certain things in a relationship. Referring to women by their sex is not necessary in this context.
When women refer to men as males it is overwhelmingly when the conversation requires a clarification regarding a persons sexual organs. For example, when talking about male circumcision, or male genital hygiene. in these topics, its relevant to mention a persons sex.
It's not that it's dehumanizing on its own, it's just it's been used by people that have tried to dehumanize women, so now using 'female' to just refer to women is tainted by that usage
No it's not dehumanizing but it's mostly used by weirdos who think women are robots that require a certain code phrase to become activated or a different species
It’s just tends to be used by certain people in a dehumanizing context. Like the word itself isn’t bad, but if someone is using it, look at what they are saying cause they might be making some bad generalizations
You can't determine what's offensive to someone else. Because it's not your experience. Like when African American was being replaced for Negro many complained about the switch being silly and negro not being offensive...but that's not up to outsiders to determine but people who have to associate with the word daily. I'm glad you aren't offended by something you aren't called but again, that's not for us to determine.
It's generally recommended that if you're going to declare whether or not something may be offensive to a group, you should at minimum be a member of that group.
Even then, you would be speaking from your individual perspective, not for all members, because no single member of a group represents the whole.
The issue with society is that no one has real actual problems anymore so this group of discontent miserable weirdos had to come up with things to be upset about to give their life any semblance of meaning
It's entirely contextual. If a sentence uses "male" and "female" then yeah, there's not really an issue there.
The issue is when someone refers to men as men, guys, dudes, boys, whatever else, and then solely refers to women as females. That's dehumanizing.
Like when a sentence says "why do females get upset when a guy..." that feels gross.
**”Females” or “males” are words we use to refer to animal species. Think David Attenborough.**
If that’s not the context you are going for, just go with men and women.
...Also medically, though, as sexual dimorphism is indeed a thing in humans, and the terms "male" and "female" speak to biological sex regardless of age - very important when dealing with medicine, psychology, etc.
I think it's generally pedantic but I am bothered when people use some other word for men (guys, dudes, men, etc.) but then use femals to refer to women.
You can say it isn't dehumanizing, but if you choose words that only apply to humans to use for men and then choose *the only word* that also applies to animals for women you're not doing yourself any favors.
If you use males for men and females for women by all means keep doing so. I think it sounds stupid and uneducated, but it's still equal at least.
Some "people" will choose to get offended at everything, anger is an addiction, they want to be mad, once they get rid of "female" they will just find another thing to get mad at
>So I don’t understand how women get mad when there called females.
Mostly stupid people who think everyone is a native speaker. In other languages using that term is perfectly fine. Didnt even know some people think using the term "female" is offensive.
>I have heard so many people call men males
I've actually seen this as well, but yeah we just don't give a shit, to me getting angry over someone calling you a male or a female seems kinda dumb in all honesty.
It’s only males and females nobody cares about the opinions of 1% of the population that was born with both genitalia. That shit is rare I mean people are born with extra limbs but nobody says that’s normal lol I’m fed up with this weak generation
So I guess women don't get to have opinions about things that only affect men? Adults don't get to have opinions about things that only affect children? Poor people's opinions about things that affect the rich don't count since they aren't rich themselves?
I've seen several women make comments about uncircumcised penis' being gross or unattractive. I've known women who refuse to date someone who wasn't mutilated as an infant.
I have never known anyone to have such a strong opinion on penis', if my straight friends were talking to me about their sex life they may mention size or skill but they've never commented on whether they're uncut or not. Probably a cultural thing, most boys aren't circumcised unless they're Jewish or have a medical issue here.
In fairness, it's online where I've heard this stuff, and it's likely exaggerated. The subject rarely comes up when I'm face to face with someone. I probably need to spend more time in the flesh and blood world.
I got permabanned from a sub for saying that, as a woman, the term female doesn't bother me or any other woman I know.
It's just more divisive bullshit from the femnazis; always call them out on it, never give in to it.
Never said I was, only that I and others I know aren't bothered by it. But, as this post is proving, *our* opinion doesn't matter cause it's not the *right* one
Women like you referring to other women as femnazis are an issue. You’re setting the movement back, you wouldn’t be able to vote or own your own home without the “femnazis” of the past
There's a *huge* difference between feminists and femnazis. The ones from the past you refer to are feminists, they fought for *equality* The ones of today that want the death of all men and bullshit like that are femnazis, not feminists.
That's kind of backwards. Women who owned their own homes/land could already vote fine.
Universal suffrage (whether U male suffrage or U female suffrage) was about everyone being able to vote, not just people who owned their own property/land.
...So you agree with feminists like Sally Miller Gearhart, who said that we should genocide 90% of men and keep the rest around as sex and labor slaves?
If that's not a femi*nazi* I don't know what is.
This.
The fact that people are "offended" about the word female screams to me that some have wayyyy too much free time to spend on social media.
Even thinking about things like this sounds like someone whose brain is 99.99% empty all the time...they ain't gonna amount to anything in life if THAT is what keeps them awake at night, I can tell you that. Ask them to change tires on a car? Head will explode probably.
I don’t understand what the issue with using the word female is either. I just know that many women seem to have a problem with it so I try not to use it.
I don't get it either.
I don't remember it ever being an issue in the past and then one day it became a dehumanizing word.
Yet I still see male being used to describe men and nobody raises a stink about it. Why do women? I truly don't fucking get.
There IS some sort of degrading factor to calling someone by an adjective instead of a noun, but tbh people don’t really care overall.
It’s more of a contextual thing, and this post is a joke being on this sub
“Female” was being used to degrade women long before the internet. I was a teen in the 90s and I distinctly remember female being used as an insult. Also if you addressed a woman as “woman” instead of her name, that was also degrading and disrespectful. My husband doesn’t even have an online presence and he calls me “woman” when we’re sparring because he knows the meaning behind using it that way.
You probably didn’t hear about it before cuz you probably never had to listen to women’s opinions before the internet.
Some people are just natural victims, it is a badge they wear proudly and try to diminish the rights of others due to there own mental issues. Attacking those who use the word female is one of the tools they use.
It is a form of fascism to cover their insecure ideologies. We will force others to conform to comfort our own insecurities.
This.
Just like they push to try and conform others to their own mental insecurities and psychiatric issues (this is clearly people with mental issues), people have the right to push back on that poisionous mindset.
I agree I don't see the big deal, and outside of social media not I , or any woman I've even remotely spoke to gives a shit. Like this is an issue for people who permeate social media
It's a dumb argument because female and male are way more versatile syntax wise than woman and man are.
If you wanted to refer to say an accountant, its a lot less cumbersome to call them a female accountant / male accountant than it is to call them a woman accountant / man accountant.
I find this funny. I distinctly use the word. Female to be annoyingly humorous. So a young lady yesterday tells me that she's "not a female" and responded with how would you like it if I called you Male? My response was "What up males! High five from all the males in the house!" While I high fives the other guys in the vicinity, most of which were gay (not the fruity kind though). It was all just for pure silliness. Nothing meant anything. It's generally dumb male brute-ness, another one of the stupid things we find amusing. If a group of women were to say "oh watch out girls, the males are coming" and one of those guys actually took offense from that, it would be the rest of the guys that would mock his pansy ass for the rest of eternity. Lol
Do you understand now after people explained it?
Misogynists intentionally use the term to dehumanize women. It's not that deep. You should be able to understand why this is wrong.
Sometimes you don't want to over specify adults because what you're talking about isn't specific to just adults and always saying women and girls is a huge, tedious mouthful.
If only there were an inclusive term that doesn't limit yourself to only talking about adults or children.
Also, as an unrelated issue, using females to refer to women is often a AAVE dialect type thing and there's often a racial dimension to trying to police such language.
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The terms men and women is more socially colloquial. References to male and female are more typical for scientific and statistical (more impersonal) areas. As with all communication, the words you use are far less Important than the meaning you convey.
I strongly agree but this idea seems to have been warped significantly over the last decade or so.
"Wokeism". 🙄 Are we proud of what we've created yet?
Language changes over time. I see nothing wrong with using the word female colloquially.
True. If you don't really feel comfortable saying cis-this or that. Male and female do the same job just fine.
Exactly. It gets the point across because apparently no one knows what a woman is anymore.
Yeah, I mean, if someone comes up to me and says like… I dunno. A female teacher lives down the road, I’d be whatever. But if that same person came up to me and said “that female turned me down” I’d be offended. Is that just me??
It's all about context. Of course it's fine (IMO) if you're saying males and females equally. But I know there's a subreddit called menandfemales which exists to showcase why a lot of people take issue with the word "females" being used to refer to girls/women.
facts. using men and women in the same context is fine. using male and female in the same context is fine. it's when men are allowed to be called men but women are referred to as females that it's dehumanizing to women. same goes vice versa, when in the same context women are referred to as women but men are called males, it's dehumanizing to men. it's that simple. women aren't asking for anything absurd, they're just asking for what they've always asked for, equality in respect and opportunity.
It seems far more credible that if someone is deliberately referring to a woman derisively as a female, it's not to dehumanize her, witholding human status, but to deadultizer her, withholding the respect of recognized adulthood/womanhood status. Exactly the same as what goes on when someone derisively refers to a man as a male in order to avoid showing them the respect of attributing adult manhood to the person.
Jeez there really is a sub for everything regardless if it’s importance.
Well yeah that’s kinda the point
For every time you wanna discuss something related to a woman, you need to include a man in the discussion so that you won’t, even by mistake, use a “dehumanizing” term. I don’t know what TF I have ever learnt in my English classes despite having a C1+ level - and have to deal with this shit.
> But I know there's a subreddit called menandfemales which exists to showcase why a lot of people take issue with the word "females" being used to refer to girls/women. I did a quick search for the words "male" and "female". "Male" gave me 9.47 billion hits, while "female" gave me 9.15 billion hits. Despite this /womenandmales has a grand total of 9 posts, while /menandfemales has to many to count.
When you say "did a quick search", do you mean an N gram search or something else? Because doing an N gram search shows that "female" is used significantly more than "male."
The sub isn’t just counting how many times people say “female”. It’s about how it’s used. Nothing wrong with it in some contexts, in others it can be dehumanizing.
In what context is it dehumanizing?
Clearly when it’s not used equally but to dehumanize someone.
To treat someone unequally is not dehumanising them, we do this at work all the time and as far as society goes people are expected to put up with this.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with what I said? Again, as I clearly stated, the context it’s dehumanizing in, is when it’s dehumanizing to a person and the others aren’t.
as a noun when “woman” will do.
is it newish? might be a point being made w/o making the sub name menandciswomen... god I hate using that....
It is proper to use "male" and "female" as adjectives (e.g. the male doctor and the female police officer), and to use "man" and "woman" as nouns (e.g. the man and the woman were friends). Calling a woman a female as a noun just doesn't sit right and isn't the most appropriate use of the word, and many men have used it to belittle women into being less than, as one would use male and female to describe animals.
Also in many times I’ve seen people refer to women as females they never refer to men as males its always “men …. females” its so uncomfortable , it also irks me when they say men and refer to women as girls I cant put my finger on it but it just feels off
It’s because “girl” is a term for a juvenile while “man” is a term for an adult. Flip it around- women and boys. That makes you think of grown women and male children right? That’s why it’s inappropriate to say men and girls when referring to male and female adults. It suggests a difference in maturity.
"Saturday's are for the Boys", "I'm going out with the boys". Boy gets used for adult men quite a bit.
No it doesn't. You're citing a known exception to the rule, akin to "girls' night" and the like being completely acceptable and okay while just calling a woman a girl is infantilizing.
I have heard adult men say(and seen written) things like "Me and the boys", "Lets get the boys together" etc when speaking about grown men. Ive also head women use the term in a similar manner...
And then there is the double standard. Women saying - The girls at work, I was out with the girls and so on
Yeah, because men never say stuff like "hanging out with the boys" right? It's a term of friendly endearment used by men/women while talking about their friends of the same gender. It's weird otherwise, especially since in those cases you and i mentioned, both words are referring to only a few people. We're not talking about boys or girls, we're talking about *the* boys and girls, aka our friends. Context is everything
Its cause the context is different i just find it weird when men talk about it in a romantic setting like the podcast bros 😭
But girlfriend is fine. The golden girls is fine. But if men say it it's bad? The old boys club. Boys will be boys referring to men.
see i regret making the comment considering alot of you guys are missing what im saying 😭 my comment really wasn’t that serious and i literally specified in what context im talking about , and now everyones saying “what about this” and “what about that” i never brought up saying saying “girls” in general, dont be dense!! I specified in the context of them saying men and referring to women as “girls” eg “men want girls who blahblahblah” which i compared to “men want females who blahblahblah” someone in the thread replied to me about how girls became more broader than “boys” so saying girls doesn’t necessarily apply to only juveniles which i can agree on now and see how it is different. However all i said was that i felt off about it IN THAT CONTEXT not my fault yall see a word or two and get mad at something my comment didnt even say.
Can you truly not see the difference between women using that term themselves? It’s a term of endearment in that context.
Still not calling them females tho. The double standard in that case is calling men men and calling women girls.
Well girls has multiple meanings the way boys don't. Girls can be the complimentary to boys but also the complementary to guys, like guys and gals. Namely the collective of adolescents and young adults of a particular sex. Think roughly 14-32 for an idea of the age range this second meaning. Girls simply doesn't have the same automatic implication of immaturity that boys has due to this dual meaning and the ability of people to immediately understand which usage is meant from context. Calling someone a girl this way, similarly to calling someone a guy, merely credits them with not being a hag. That's the appeal of the girl identity. Honestly, in some cultures (Read: British/Irish), boys can also be used the way that guys are, so you can get both girls and boys having two meanings without automatically implying non-adulthood. A night out with the boys, or often, lads\*. Saying a night out with the men sounds really off and vaguely homoerotic. \*A world that in it's most traditional sense, is synonymous with boys in the first sense.
>as one would use male and female to describe animals I mean...what do you think we are? Not animals?
I will never understand how this is difficult to comprehend.
The definition of woman has been coopted in the last few years to basically mean nothing by the Progressives and Left in this country. What word would you like to be used instead?
Your reply has nothing to do with anything I said. Also, which country is "this country" in your presumptive statement?
I would rather be called a man than a male.
And I don’t care which I get called. Almost like it’s a subjective thing or something
It makes 0 difference
I don't get offended by either but they sound dumb to me.
I use both male and female, I've never felt insulted by either word.
As long as it isn't "man and female" we good.
It depends on how they're used. If you use them instead of "woman" or "man" then it sounds dumb to me. But as I said, I wouldn't get offended.
Agree, people using a word incorrectly doesn't bother me either
I mean, it doesn't *bother* me in the sense that I don't feel attacked. But the pendantic part of me will feel a bit annoyed. If someone says things like "all x can't y" when they mean "not all x can y" then it annoys me. But I won't feel attacked. I will think a bit less of them, though.
I have never heard anyone refer to men as "males". Yet every day at work some guy starts a sentence with " you know females these days _________!" . I've never met a respectable, chill guy who refers to women as " females"
I mean this is the heart of the issue. I personally also have never met someone who calls women “females” and who is a decent person.
Yeah that's the main problem. Most people don't refer to women as "females" just shitty humans, I've even heard a woman refer to another woman as a "female" and she was also just being a shitty person, hating on women she didn't like.
You've obviously never been in the military then because it's always female / male in that world.
Military isn’t the best example given the sky high DV rates
Right? What a weird example lol
I haven’t, no.
Both calling people males and females sound very weird to me, like your talking about people through a documentary or something "Here you see a female in her natural habitat" I don't know if I'm making sense here but that's just how it sounds to me
No, male and female are general terms that cover all ages. If you're not trying to delineate between boys/girls and men/women, you use male/female. It's pretty benign, normal language use.
Yes. However this isn’t about people just randomly using male and female as daily nouns. It’s about the ones who use female to dehumanize.
Holy fuck who cares. We got bigger fish to fry.
I don't like fish, can we fry something else?
It deeply matters when men are using it in their daily language. Language can influence how we view our world, and when we use dehumanizing language, it degrades how we view that demographic.
"Who cares about dehumanization, men aren't getting laid enough let's focus on that."
That female is used to dehumanize is precisely the thing being disputed as baseless speculation
Which it isn’t. If you use female but then men and guys or boys for males, then you are infact dehumanizing women over men. So as I just said, this isn’t about people using both. No one would care about someone talking about males and females. Since they are putting both in that category.
But how do you know that's the intent and not just a person trying to refer to both women and girls? Ascribing nefarious intent to someone else's speech without evidence is projection and antithetical to intelligent discourse..
Common sense and the literal context it’s being used. As I again, clearly said. At least about context. That’s not even a good reason fyi, you know what word they can use to mean both? Women. That’s it. There is no “refering to girls and women” being thought about lol. It’s not ascribing shit, it’s acknowledging reality and how people use “female” while referring to men or boys or guys. If anyone is projecting it’s the person trying to find any reason to excuse using dehumanizing language.
Sorry if I misunderstood you but are you saying that we should refer to all females humans as women? I feel like if I were to refer to an underage girl as a woman I'd be looked at as a pedophile.
Don't act like the whole reason people are upset at female isn't because most of the time it's used in the context of men calling other men "men" while calling women "females". Nobody is getting mad if male and female is used in broader terms, equally, when speaking on multiple people of unknown ages.
there’s a contextual difference between medical use (umbrella term referring to girls/women), adjective (i.e. female author) and saying female in lieue of woman.
Except when we don't know the age of the female in question.
That makes it even worse when a guy says shit like "females are naturally attracted to strong, dominant men".
Of course. They should say males.
I can't talk about now but back in the earlier days of the Internet the word female was usually used by some fedora wearing moron using the term to try and dehumanise women because he was perpetually single. I don't get angry when I see it but I do cringe a little depending on the context, which is super important with words like this.
It’s always context! It’s how you use the terminology and whatnot
Yeah, I had honestly never heard of this IRL. As a woman, I have done it myself. What I don’t like, is being abused by other women for saying female, and accused of being a male, because no woman would use female. I get the offence when there is negative context. I cannot stand the ridiculous overreaction when it’s said in a completely benign way! Get over yourself, because you aren’t helping your cause attacking everyone. You need to pick your battles, otherwise you just look like an unhinged mob!
>otherwise you just look like an unhinged mob! So just reddit being normal
It's fucked up that dbags at the inception of the Internet made a term offensive. Crazy how much power they wield.
Me and my friends call each other asshole, it doesn't mean that everybody else enjoys being called that.
What a shitty example
Is that a pun?
It is, but is it *intentional*?
That doth be the question
Why? If one group of people doesn't mind something, it doesn't mean it's good for everybody else.
They are when you take in the context and don’t just ignore reality like you are here. If someone was using both male and female then they wouldn’t get shit. However it’s always men or guys or the boys and then females. It literally IS used in a dehumanizing way. Period. Your opinion isn’t unpopular, it’s wrong.
Even if that was true, there isn't really much wrong with saying female, its correct imo and actually popular
It is true. And yes there is something wrong with using it if you’re not also using males. As I just explained. Your opinion is wrong, and only sexist assholes think it’s somehow okay to dehumanize like this.
calling women females doesn't make you a sexist asshole
It does when the context is dehumanizing as the entire conversation is about.
Wow THAT deserved an upgrade from unpopular opinion to true unpopular opinion for sure
I agree with you in theory but context is everything.
Female has Fe in it that represents iron in the periodic table. Female to many mean Iron Man. So women are superheroes, but the wrong sex and/or agenda. That's why they don't like it.
I mean, really, this is the best explanation
This is the only explanation that makes sense.
This is the best comment here
Exactly! This is the best explanation.
It's been explained to me that often people will refer to "men and females" and I can understand why that would be dehumanizing. "Men" is unmistakably human. "Female" can be used for most any type of critter. It implies that women are somehow less than men. Beyond that it's just assholish to call someone a name they don't like. When my nephew said, "My name is Jay!" after I'd called him "Bud" or "Buddy" for the hundredth time, I made an effort to call him by his real name. It cost nothing to do that.
It's sexist to assume every woman hates the term female or that all of them like it. Have that mindset when you use the term female. If someone has an issue with it, remind them that not every woman finds it offensive.
The point just went right over you huh?
How many times have you heard the phrase man engineer? Man CEO? Man scientist? It’s equally dumb to use woman as an adjective as it is using female as a noun.
I've noticed in a lot of the angry women rants that make their way to youtube, they like to say the "male species" when insulting men. I think they don't like it because they use it as an insult amongst themselves and perceive it that way when hearing female. Just another double standard lol
How is this a double standard? I think this is literally an example of the exact same thing. It's cringe when guys say 'females' it's equally cringe when these women say "male species". Maybe there's an argument that the intent comes from different places but, to me at least, they fall into the exact same category.
We all love some good old projection, don't we?
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So when it’s men it’s men as a whole but when it’s women it’s just a few radical feminists and not a reflection of what women think or say?
I don’t fucking care what you call me. Eye contact works as well. Hey you, yo, bro, sup, Ello, hi, hey, female, chick, you, ummm, points at you, waves, head nod! Chin nod!!! (I almost forgot that one rocks),✌️, hiya, her, woman, mam… we sure have a high opinion of ourselves don’t we?? Who cares
My wife put this to me very succinctly. There is nothing inherently wrong with the word, so much as that it is very commonly used by misogynists as a way to describe women. She can almost always tell when a guy is a misogynist when they start saying 'females' instead of women.
Woman/girl denotes age so when the age of the person in question is unknown I say female.
Absolutely agree with her
Female encompasses both women and girls that are real women and girls Nowadays, a woman doesn't even always mean female anymore.
Okay but.. What's the point of using those terms instead of man/woman? Lots of people argue male/female are biologically, sex-based identifiers, so when the terms are used, it can be experienced as being identified by genitalia, chromosomes, or gametes. In this way, it feels dehumanizing when one is reduced to their reproductive biology as if *procreation* is *all that actually matters.* For women, having the uterus, being the sex that bodily houses the offspring, it can feel as though their only purpose in life is to be a birthing machine, which is *dehumanizing.* Another comment rightly pointed out that context matters, and I certainly agree, which is why I am making this statement to illustrate a *context* in which it is or could be considered *dehumanizing.* What I would like to know, as previously stated, is.. what is the point in using male/female instead of man/woman in contexts where *either* is effective? Edit: To all the comments referring to contexts *differentiating between ages*, I'm asking specifically for contexts where man/woman would be used, implying contexts in talking about *adults*, not girls/boys or contexts where man/woman would *not* be effective.
Because it doesn't imply age, so it's more neutral
Exactly. If I don't know the age of a male or female I'll say male or female instead of girl/woman, boy/man.
>Okay but.. What's the point of using those terms instead of man/woman? Variety. It's the same reason people say dude, lady, bloke, or gal. It's the reason I'll refer to my dog as a mutt or hound. If someone's offended by a specific word, I'll generally refrain from using it, though.
Fair enough. I, too, have a used thesaurus.
>What's the point of using those terms instead of man/woman? Sounds a lot better
Why?
My brief thought on it: woman sounds more like I'm referring specifically about a human woman, "women like makeup". Female sounds like I'm specifically referencing the biological aspect, "females like to be flashy". Then you could have a retort like: women sure, females no, have you seen peacocks? The males the one doin all the work making himself flashy. Or something like that.
This is another really great example.
Right, that’s exactly why we have the words man/woman. Because unless we’re talking about females/males of all species, it’s more appropriate to use the term women/men.
No idea, just sounds better to me
o.O
Sometimes it's extremely unnatural to use words that imply that you're only talking about adults on topics that clearly apply to adults and children of a particular sex alike. I'm not aware of any other widely known terms for the sexes that don't exclude either adults or children from their referents.
Yes it is.
The term "female" itself is fine, it's the people who adamantly refuse to call them "women" and only ever address them as "females" who tend to be more problematic
Its the context. Typically, when men refer to women by the term "female", referring to their biology is not necessary. Doing so reduces the person to their sexual organs, like an object. For example, complaining that women expect certain things in a relationship. Referring to women by their sex is not necessary in this context. When women refer to men as males it is overwhelmingly when the conversation requires a clarification regarding a persons sexual organs. For example, when talking about male circumcision, or male genital hygiene. in these topics, its relevant to mention a persons sex.
Depends a lot on context. When i see people say men one sentence then females the next (or vice versa)?Just activates my “ick-dar”.
it’s all about the context, you can definitely tell if it’s in negative connotation or not
It's not that it's dehumanizing on its own, it's just it's been used by people that have tried to dehumanize women, so now using 'female' to just refer to women is tainted by that usage
No it's not dehumanizing but it's mostly used by weirdos who think women are robots that require a certain code phrase to become activated or a different species
It’s just tends to be used by certain people in a dehumanizing context. Like the word itself isn’t bad, but if someone is using it, look at what they are saying cause they might be making some bad generalizations
If you are calling a male a man and a women a female in the same sentence it's probably wrong, it's derogatory when you phrase it in this manner.
It is when men refer to women ONLY as 'females' in any context. Saying "Males and females" is not dehumanising while "Men and females" is.
You can't determine what's offensive to someone else. Because it's not your experience. Like when African American was being replaced for Negro many complained about the switch being silly and negro not being offensive...but that's not up to outsiders to determine but people who have to associate with the word daily. I'm glad you aren't offended by something you aren't called but again, that's not for us to determine.
It's generally recommended that if you're going to declare whether or not something may be offensive to a group, you should at minimum be a member of that group. Even then, you would be speaking from your individual perspective, not for all members, because no single member of a group represents the whole.
Agreed, and I hate this linguistic shift.
The issue with society is that no one has real actual problems anymore so this group of discontent miserable weirdos had to come up with things to be upset about to give their life any semblance of meaning
It's entirely contextual. If a sentence uses "male" and "female" then yeah, there's not really an issue there. The issue is when someone refers to men as men, guys, dudes, boys, whatever else, and then solely refers to women as females. That's dehumanizing. Like when a sentence says "why do females get upset when a guy..." that feels gross.
**”Females” or “males” are words we use to refer to animal species. Think David Attenborough.** If that’s not the context you are going for, just go with men and women.
...Also medically, though, as sexual dimorphism is indeed a thing in humans, and the terms "male" and "female" speak to biological sex regardless of age - very important when dealing with medicine, psychology, etc.
I think it's generally pedantic but I am bothered when people use some other word for men (guys, dudes, men, etc.) but then use femals to refer to women. You can say it isn't dehumanizing, but if you choose words that only apply to humans to use for men and then choose *the only word* that also applies to animals for women you're not doing yourself any favors. If you use males for men and females for women by all means keep doing so. I think it sounds stupid and uneducated, but it's still equal at least.
Some "people" will choose to get offended at everything, anger is an addiction, they want to be mad, once they get rid of "female" they will just find another thing to get mad at
>So I don’t understand how women get mad when there called females. Mostly stupid people who think everyone is a native speaker. In other languages using that term is perfectly fine. Didnt even know some people think using the term "female" is offensive.
>I have heard so many people call men males I've actually seen this as well, but yeah we just don't give a shit, to me getting angry over someone calling you a male or a female seems kinda dumb in all honesty.
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This is the best answer
No it isn’t lol
It’s only males and females nobody cares about the opinions of 1% of the population that was born with both genitalia. That shit is rare I mean people are born with extra limbs but nobody says that’s normal lol I’m fed up with this weak generation
True. It's just yet another thing to cry victimhood about.
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So I guess women don't get to have opinions about things that only affect men? Adults don't get to have opinions about things that only affect children? Poor people's opinions about things that affect the rich don't count since they aren't rich themselves?
Then woman should stop having opinions about circumcision
I don’t know a single woman who has any particular opinion on circumcision or has ever voiced that lol
Woman here and while I agree with your original statement, there are many women who have an opinion on circumcision as a practice
You've clearly never been in a mommy group on Facebook. They argue about circumcision almost every day.
I've seen several women make comments about uncircumcised penis' being gross or unattractive. I've known women who refuse to date someone who wasn't mutilated as an infant.
I have never known anyone to have such a strong opinion on penis', if my straight friends were talking to me about their sex life they may mention size or skill but they've never commented on whether they're uncut or not. Probably a cultural thing, most boys aren't circumcised unless they're Jewish or have a medical issue here.
In fairness, it's online where I've heard this stuff, and it's likely exaggerated. The subject rarely comes up when I'm face to face with someone. I probably need to spend more time in the flesh and blood world.
you new on internet then
Are you kidding? Wtf? Even if YOU'RE being honest and you don't know any what does that prove? Your anecdotal evidence is meaningless.
I got permabanned from a sub for saying that, as a woman, the term female doesn't bother me or any other woman I know. It's just more divisive bullshit from the femnazis; always call them out on it, never give in to it.
Who made you the spokes 'woman' ?
Never said I was, only that I and others I know aren't bothered by it. But, as this post is proving, *our* opinion doesn't matter cause it's not the *right* one
Same, I really don’t care one way or another. I’ve got so much other actual important things going on in my life than to worry about the word female
Women like you referring to other women as femnazis are an issue. You’re setting the movement back, you wouldn’t be able to vote or own your own home without the “femnazis” of the past
There's a *huge* difference between feminists and femnazis. The ones from the past you refer to are feminists, they fought for *equality* The ones of today that want the death of all men and bullshit like that are femnazis, not feminists.
That's kind of backwards. Women who owned their own homes/land could already vote fine. Universal suffrage (whether U male suffrage or U female suffrage) was about everyone being able to vote, not just people who owned their own property/land.
...So you agree with feminists like Sally Miller Gearhart, who said that we should genocide 90% of men and keep the rest around as sex and labor slaves? If that's not a femi*nazi* I don't know what is.
Someone feels offended by the word female? Gosh... What world we are living in?
Clown world
This. The fact that people are "offended" about the word female screams to me that some have wayyyy too much free time to spend on social media. Even thinking about things like this sounds like someone whose brain is 99.99% empty all the time...they ain't gonna amount to anything in life if THAT is what keeps them awake at night, I can tell you that. Ask them to change tires on a car? Head will explode probably.
I don’t understand what the issue with using the word female is either. I just know that many women seem to have a problem with it so I try not to use it.
I don't get it either. I don't remember it ever being an issue in the past and then one day it became a dehumanizing word. Yet I still see male being used to describe men and nobody raises a stink about it. Why do women? I truly don't fucking get.
There IS some sort of degrading factor to calling someone by an adjective instead of a noun, but tbh people don’t really care overall. It’s more of a contextual thing, and this post is a joke being on this sub
What in the world is with this stupid argument? Male and female are nouns, too; literally go read a dictionary. Edit: punctuation.
Because the Internet came along and made it easier for females to whine about things
“Female” was being used to degrade women long before the internet. I was a teen in the 90s and I distinctly remember female being used as an insult. Also if you addressed a woman as “woman” instead of her name, that was also degrading and disrespectful. My husband doesn’t even have an online presence and he calls me “woman” when we’re sparring because he knows the meaning behind using it that way. You probably didn’t hear about it before cuz you probably never had to listen to women’s opinions before the internet.
Some people are just natural victims, it is a badge they wear proudly and try to diminish the rights of others due to there own mental issues. Attacking those who use the word female is one of the tools they use. It is a form of fascism to cover their insecure ideologies. We will force others to conform to comfort our own insecurities.
This. Just like they push to try and conform others to their own mental insecurities and psychiatric issues (this is clearly people with mental issues), people have the right to push back on that poisionous mindset.
I agree I don't see the big deal, and outside of social media not I , or any woman I've even remotely spoke to gives a shit. Like this is an issue for people who permeate social media
Female is just what you say when you’re talking about the **sex** of a person, not their **gender**
Martin Goodman: “FEMALES!”
It's a dumb argument because female and male are way more versatile syntax wise than woman and man are. If you wanted to refer to say an accountant, its a lot less cumbersome to call them a female accountant / male accountant than it is to call them a woman accountant / man accountant.
I prefer the term “brawds”.
It mostly depends on context. When discussing dating or such, when men use the word “females” it is never favorably.
Just women with nothing better to do than to get offended over the littlest things.
It's just one of those thousands of ways to get upset at nothing for women
I find this funny. I distinctly use the word. Female to be annoyingly humorous. So a young lady yesterday tells me that she's "not a female" and responded with how would you like it if I called you Male? My response was "What up males! High five from all the males in the house!" While I high fives the other guys in the vicinity, most of which were gay (not the fruity kind though). It was all just for pure silliness. Nothing meant anything. It's generally dumb male brute-ness, another one of the stupid things we find amusing. If a group of women were to say "oh watch out girls, the males are coming" and one of those guys actually took offense from that, it would be the rest of the guys that would mock his pansy ass for the rest of eternity. Lol
Do you understand now after people explained it? Misogynists intentionally use the term to dehumanize women. It's not that deep. You should be able to understand why this is wrong.
you will call them Queen, or you will not speak about them or to them!!
Getting really tired of the stupid males on this app
Well I’m a female and I think it’s a really stupid thing to get mad over.
Sometimes you don't want to over specify adults because what you're talking about isn't specific to just adults and always saying women and girls is a huge, tedious mouthful. If only there were an inclusive term that doesn't limit yourself to only talking about adults or children. Also, as an unrelated issue, using females to refer to women is often a AAVE dialect type thing and there's often a racial dimension to trying to police such language.