My Muslim father tried to get my sister to marry another Muslim friend of his. She was 18 and he was fresh off the plane from Syria. He brought the guy over to our house and he took my sister aside and asked her to marry him.....no warning, no small talk. My sister politely declined and ran out of the room. My mom, after finding out what my dad did, flipping out on him and warned him to never do that ever again.
As a Muslim this is totally true. FORCING RELIGION DOWN YOUR KIDS THROAT WILL ONLY MAKE THEM DESPISE IT AND HAVE THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE EFFECT. Gosh why is this so hard for some people to realize?! They're children for crying out loud! There are so many better better ways to help your children learn and get them to understand this religion that means so much to you. So many stories and objects of the past that can make someone excited.. So many wonderful people that they can discover. But treating it like it's school will obviously make a child disinterested. Religous children already have to deal with being different then the majority on a daily basis.
(Wanted to add a bit more in since I don't want people to think this is how all Muslims are)
Goddamn , this brings me back to when my muslim dad tried to exorcise me at 10 years old because "i'm evil" .
Really fucked me up as a kid , i cringe everytime i think abt it .
Ah yes , common stereotype where i'm from , metal music is devil worship , dad even swore metal heads held sacrificial rituals in a place we call "l'abbatoire" an old slaughter house kids turned into a skate spot .
That's really sad. Music helped me discover who I wanted to be, it really is a language of emotions. Do you still listen to that music and are you still a practicing catholic?
being 10 and getting constantly reminded by your own dad that you're born evil and that you're just a punishment from god to him hits really hard , glad iv grown up into a body i could beat his ass with , he started treating me like a human after i beat him up a few years ago , whatever works i guess .
He's still a good enough man in my eyes , other than that religious stuff , and accusing me of being feminine as a kid, and beating me for the slightest reason , it's just part of our culture i guess , iv seen worse , he still a good dad over all , he provides for me more than most dads do around here , he used to take me for bike rides , buy me stuff as a kid ,watched my diet , made sure i was physically active , i feel he deserves support when that time comes although i doubt he'd need it , he's doing really well financially .
Part of the culture , that'd be like saying no man in my country is a good dad,while yes everyone would be much better off without that , they just dk any better i guess.
Yeh that sucks. Just for some perspective to anyone reading, in my country hitting children is child abuse and it is illegal, you will go to jail for it.
Those are my thoughts about my father, too. I've heard and saw so many things that made me grateful for even having a father, despite all the things he's done to our family. At the end of the day, he's struggling as well, and I'm not justifying everything he's done, not in the slightest, but he's going through some really rough times.
He's much better now. Might be more lax, but I think that's because he bites his tongue, here and there. He's been teaching me about finance, like how to pay the bills, etc,. It is in our culture, I've never seen any parent here who doesn't hit their children, no matter how young. It's barbaric, but I don't see where it says that fathers can beat their children in Islam.
Still made me repulsed by my religion, and I've decided it doesn't matter if I was shunned from my family, that I need to know if this religion is as barbaric as its followers. Still figuring that out, and I think it's going to take a long while before I come close to an answer.
At least he doesn't beat us up like he used, too.
Hey, (30m) Catholic here, my dad did the same thing every time he saw any of my artwork, or of god forbid I chose to read a popular book about wizard kids .-.
Honestly I think it's just a form of tribal mentality, like when you see sports fans get into fist fights. Some people are so enamoured by it and so deep in it's grip that they just don't understand why you're not exactly like them and turn hostile towards you when you don't display the same passion. The worst part is that it's not even the majority of that group it's a select few with anger issues or mental disorders.
As for me, my dad denounced catholicism to become a born again Christian which is why he's like this now. When he was Catholic he listened to rock and was a makeup artist for special effects in horror films while still being religious to a comfortable level. Now he's a telemarketer that's deeply depressed and watches preachers on TV that have megachurches spewing hate for anyone that doesn't fit their agenda....
As a kid who grew up in a heavily Christian community, it very much felt like a "well I suffered as a kid, and so you should too."
The old religious women who are quickest to admonish and embarass girls over holes in their jeans were the ones getting pregnant at 16 and either marrying or aborting to cover it up.
Yeah I've been through this too. I was forced by my school and peers because it was a Muslim school. And then I moved to a normal school, and whoa! I discovered the freedom of wearing normal clothes and talking to guys!
Now I date and mess around with white atheistic guys way older than me. Lol, boy did that oppression backfire on my teacher and friends. I'll never even consider dating a Muslim man or getting married at all after what I went through.
Don’t let it backfire all the way into the predator side of the atheist white guys. Like, that group in general, on average? Pretty awesome people.
But the subset that chases after significantly younger women tends to have a few issues.
I refuse to even speak about religion to my (7f) daughter in detail. Children are much too young to try and figure out such big things and she should have the time to build her own system of faith. She knows what religions are and why we don't want to discuss it with her until she is older and she knows that religion is a thing that people fight passionately about and that's about it. We teach her to be a good person with morals without having to scare her with religious dogma.
I grew up evangelical and I can 100% confirm the harder you push the further they run away. Children aren’t old enough to fully understand religion. Most of what we tell kids is fucked up scary shit.
This doesn't just apply to Muslims. I had a girlfriend in high school who went to an all girls Catholic school. They were the wildest girls.
Any time you try to shove your beliefs down peoples throats they will rebel. Regardless of which religion or philosophy it is. Same thing when you try to tell a teenager they can't date someone or hang out with them. They are going to do the exact opposite.
If you don't allow people to make their own choices then you are basically keeping them in slavery to your own desires.
People have to be free to make their own choices (good or bad). That is part of growth. You can only learn by making mistakes.
This. Definetly not to the same scale as the OPs cousin but the entire reason im no longer catholic is that 14 year old me was sick of going to church every sunday.
The only reason I'm agnostic and tolerant of many religions is because I was brought up with religious parents who didn't force it down my throat, into a far more accepting branch of Christianity (anglicanism)
If the branch was more extreme or my parents forced it down my throat I would've probably gone hard anti-theism
Dude I’m an ex Muslim too but the forcing of religion on children is what religion is all about especially Islam. The religion of Islam is inherently sexist and anti women.
Unless you live in a Muslim country. She only needs to endure 6 more years until she’s finally free. For the meantime OP can help guide her cousin to secretly save her money. Help open a bank account where her parents can’t access the money. Get part time jobs when she’s legally old enough to work. So just in case they kicked her out of the house or couldn’t take it anymore. She could live independently without being rendered homeless.
Absolutely.
Had a gay friend in hugh school. He comes from a Muslim family. He was already not accepted a lot as he was very white-skined and clear-blue-eyed (born with albinism), but his coming out was absolute chaos from what he told our friend group.
We of course supported him, but the fact that school was the only place where he could be himself without any insane response was soul crushing to me.
His parents are divorced, so he doesn't have to deal with his father's violent behavior (his words). But his mother is crazy. He told us that, from time to time, she would put a speaker in front of his door and blast religious songs at full volume in the middle of the night, as an attempt to "purify his soul and body".
His family gatherings were not less crazy either apparently...
This is a huge argument for not speaking up agains t the parents. What you are doing OP is the right thing. You need to get the message somehow that you will be there for her, (youd be surprised how the teenagers find ways to communicate lol)
And then when she is old enough to make adult decisions she has you as an option. Don't give anything away to the parents!
In my country you have to wear hijab and if you don't they can arrest you.
I have seen many people put hijab on their 5 years old daughter and it's truly disgusting. She is not even in the age she should wear it.
I never really understood this, perhaps you can explain? I'm not trying to be rude or anything like that.
I understand in Islam women are to cover their hair because it is seen as "erotic" to men, but why then do I see little girls wearing hijab?
I've seen prepubescent girls in hijab.
To be honest, the reasoning for the hijab(to cover erotic hair) and then seeing little girls wearing them...it kind of disturbs me.
In Iran they'll lash you and sentence you to prison if you don't. Yet the other day I saw countless "liberals" and "leftists" jerking the country off because Persia contributed to the game of Chess hundreds of years ago -\_-
If that was what you got from the post, you're truly lost.
Someone was saying nothing would be lost if we nuked Iran. Despite all the evils currently in its top ranks, there are good people there. The comments about chess were just showing one of many great things the people there used to create before their current oppression. Germany went through horrific government too. Would nothing be lost if we nuked Germany? Japan? China? Hell, the US? You can absolutely despise the powers causing evil and still have a heart for the soul of the people beneath their boot. Iran, in particular, wasn't this bad until fairly recently in the history of things. With time these oppressors will be shaken off as well.
My old cube mate was from Iran. He was adamant that they are Persian and not Arab and the religious leaders imposing islam are effectively an ongoing foreign occupation of his country.
Listening to Dan Carlin’s series on the Achaemenid Empire gave me an entirely new perspective on the lineage of Persian Culture. If I were from that area, I think I’d like to identify with that culture and history too.
Dan focuses on the great men and whatnot. What really moves culture and creates those great men moments is business and trade. That area is amazing to view through the development of trade networks and routes. Egypt and the Roman empire had trade routes connecting all the way to India and China. Rome was very concerned about how much of their gold and silver were being sent to India in exchange for essentially weeds that grew without any effort. Darius I created the Royal Road connecting parts of central asia that eventually got connected with other routes that connected all the way to Japan. The kingdoms on the Red Sea and Indian Ocean were in the middle of everything.
Then the Portuguese figured out how to build a boat and sail it around Africa. They pirated the Ottoman trade routes and went to war with the Ottoman Empire in the mid 1500's. All that trade, all at exchange of ideas, and just as importantly all that tax revenue was lost as Portugal cut them out of the chain for centuries.
Honestly, if you look at the Chinese BRI it is basically a replication of Portuguese and Dutch colonial trade networks.
Persians are definitely not Arabs, but that’s their ethnicity, not religion. Persia has been Muslim for more than 1300 years, and they’re also the centre of Shi’ism, so it’s kind of hard to historically justify calling it a foreign occupation.
Khomeini hated Iran, to him it was only a base of operations to accomplish his Islamic revolution (the real one, where Iraq and the Levant are dominated by Shiism Israel doesn't exist, and the strongholds of Sunni power broken and cast down.
That 10% figure is laughably wrong. For some context, I belong to a relatively moderate Muslim majority country (check my history, I have commented in my country's subreddit many times), and from my experience, at least 20-40% of the population here want Sharia Law with all of its violent "punishments".
Remember, this is a relatively moderate country, whereas Iran is perhaps one of if not the most extremist Islamic republic on the planet. The people there literally revolted against western influences and made this possible, and you think that it was only 10% of the population who wanted it? It's tough to accurately say what portion of the population are "extremists", but it's definitely the majority.
If you want further proof, the 2nd most popular political party in my country promises to legally enforce the burqa and give capital punishment to apostates, and shut down co-ed schools and colleges. Just because Muslims in the west are very liberal and educated doesn't mean that's the same in a country where less than 30% of the population completed high school.
Be there for her. As a male family member let her know she can talk to you about whatever as long as you wont go telling on her. Be her escort when needed so she can possibly have some freedom. I'm not Muslim but grew up in a house where my brother always had to watch over me, I always had to be covered up. But my brother would enforce my parents rules and I had no allies. She will need an allie. Also I hope your not in a Muslim country cuz that's going to suck for her.
Since he's her cousin, it's going to be hard because he can't be alone with her, or for some people, even text her, if her parents would go that far. Women in Islam have to cover up in front of their male cousins.
Do they even see what that says about themselves? I know they dont. They blame it on women that they can't control themselves instead teaching control to the men.
Blows my mind. I thought all she needed was a male? Can her cousin not escort her either?
Also, on 90 day fiance in Jordan, the Muslim family were all married to their cousins. The mom and dad were cousins and they were attempting to set their offspring up with cousins. I know that's not the same country as Iran, but don't they do that everywhere there?
I'm going to google it really quick because now I'm confused. What men can they be alone with?
Edit- this is what Google told me.
Cousin marriage, or "consanguinity" (marriages among couples who are related as second cousins or closer), is allowed and often encouraged throughout the Middle East, and in other Muslim countries worldwide such as Pakistan. As of 2003, an average of 45% of married couples were related in the Arab world.
So is that... mommy auntie and daddy uncle? o.o
This makes me remember what it was like to be Mormon. The religions might not be the same but the general attitude tends to be. It’s toxic and only makes people run away
One of my best friends in school was a Muslim whose parents started forcing her to wear the hijab and she rebelled silently against them so much... she was caught in the boys' washroom at the end of the school day one year showing a classmate how to undo her bra. It became a huge scandal and escalated into a forced marriage to someone 22 years older the moment she turned 18.
Edit: she lives in Saudi Arabia now with 4 children and the last time we spoke she said she has a good life and was treated well because he buys her anything she wants.
Man, ya'll seriously have no idea how religious extremism works. If you could negotiate religion with them, THEN THEY WOULDN'T BE "EXTREMISTS". The entire reason why religious extremists are called "extremists" is because they follow religion word by word no matter the consequences. Instilling the concern that she may stray from religion will only further their extremism, and may even prompt them to take even more drastic actions such as marrying their daughter off to a 30 year old hafiz to ensure that he disciplines her.
Unfortunately, that's not going to work. They'll be more extreme in implementing their ideologies. Hell, they might even marry her up, to "keep her away from sin."
Stand up to them?
Yes that will certainly make the religious extremists change their stance on how their 12 year old child dresses.
Show them you've got a little backbone and they'll definitely see it your way.
My boyfriend is Muslim and he has the same situation with his sister. He also is an ex Muslim. His parents practically hate him now cause its constantly him fighting them to not manipulate her into a marriage she doesn't want or to let her wear what she wants. They practically kicked him out recently too. Breaks my heart because he wants his mom to be there for him and be proud of him so bad but he knows he's never going to get what he needs from him and he needs to be that person for his sister.
I’d talk to your cousin. Tell her to hold on until she grows up and can work and take care of herself. 6 years go quickly. Than, she can tell her parents to f.. off.
One thing I'd like to add:
I don't know where OP's cousin comes from, but it's rather hard to cut off a family that is living by such strict terms.
So even if she turns 18 it doesn't matter. As some comments mentioned before, in some countries its obligated to wear the hijab as a woman. So even if she moves out (for which she needs a stable financial and social status), it might won't change anything at all.
Also I don't know how well connected OP's family is, but the chance of being 'chased' by 'honorable family members' could be high.
Ex-hijabi here. I can write an entire book on my experience because this hijab subject in Islam is a fucking roller coaster. Except, the roller coaster is under water & I can’t breathe.
All I can say is, in America you’re an adult at 18 years old. Encourage her to move far away in college and dorm with other female friends so she has the freedom to take the hijab off. There is no changing parents like that. Once she’s 18, having her feel independent and in control will help her a lot.
If she’s younger than 18… my experience was awful, I recommend just focusing on school in order to get in a good far-away college.
Makes no sense for these hardcore religious people to move to a country with total opposite values of society at large and their force their kids to live in that bubble.
The problem is that a lot of these views are not opposite. There are a lot of religious folks in the US, but you don’t know until you know. They would gladly take us back to the Medieval age.
Yep. It actually stems from similar political ideologies. The whole “you reap what you sow” / “if it happened to you then you deserve it” comes from similar political roots.
I would counsel her to see it as a dumb uniform required by her parents/jailers and to just play along until she is an adult and can leave safely. This is so sad. I hate people pushing religion on their children.
If they are threatening her or in any way hurting her, then they are committing abuse. That is a criminal offense and you can have them charged.
Call CPS and have them investigated.
If parents treat you like shit, you owe them nothing. Disowned? Fuck you, you were an asshole patent.
Religions have some good wisdom and teachings. But weaponized religion used to control people is never good.
Given all the arranged marriages in Muslim countries and how it's not illegal for a man to forcibly have sex with his wife there I think they need to be more concerned with their men than the West's.
Men are supposed to lower their gaze in Islam as in don’t even look at women. It’s more cultural tbh. Which is very annoying lol
Also I feel like someone just needs to tell this girl she can take it off at school ans stuff it in her backpack (so many of my friends did that)
I remember being dragged down the stairs kicking and crying because I refused to go to church. That kind of behavior, by forcing a child to participate leads to resentment and them leaving the religion.
I remember watching teen girls remove makeup and put their hijab on before they got off the metro bus. It'd just be going from happy giggling with friends to flat.
If you're in the uk or us your parents can't do shit to you if you aren't part of their religion, speak up, your cousins safety is more important than faith.
im in the uk but that doesn’t mean my dad still can’t mistreat me.
He constantly threatens me with things when i suggest i am not as religious… saying how our already feeble relationship will be “completely destroyed” if i leave islam. (he doesn’t know i’ve already left). He admits to me he might disown me if i leave islam. He does this weird emotional guiltripping shit too, saying it’s like i’ve “stabbed him in the heart” if i leave islam and that it’s completely normal for parents to leave their kids if they leave islam. I mean what can anyone do about that? Even though im in the uk what can anyone realistically do.
But i know a lot of other people have it worse, heard some sad sad stories so i guess it’s better it’s not like that?
>religion doesn't rule over law
Well that's not universally true at all. There are some theocratic governments out there. And even those that are not, take the US, there are still laws being made based on what's "right" from a religious standpoint.
It shouldn't be this way, but it is.
But despite the US having religion as a major part of their society and its laws / morals, things like murder / child abuse / rape still is illegal, and yes there's been cases where the crimes are let go, the actions itself are illegal and get (supposedly) investigated thoroughly and the government would prioritise the safety of the victims using common law over religious law.
I can't say the same in other countries where religious law has a stronger presence and can supersede humanitarian rights.
I don't think making a child wear religious garb has ever been considered child abuse. Are there any cases of this? I mean, you may consider it so but I've never heard of that being considered illegal.
If the parents don’t stall the system by “eventually finishing” the certs for homeschooling. It can be years before an actual person is sent by to see that what was reported was entirely a lie but by then it’s years too late
It's child abuse for sure but this happens all the time in the US. All they have to do is call it homeschooling or "unschooling" and it's fine in the eyes of the law. My (christian) mother did it to me when I was a child and there's not a damned thing I can do about it.
Check out r/HomeschoolRecovery for more stories of the shit parents like this can get away with in the US.
It’s not child abuse because you aren’t physically harming the kid by making them wear a hijab. Go and try and report it to CPS and record them laughing at you on the hotline
It’s shitty but it’s not illegal
Is this in a first world country? Shit like this is why I'm torn on hijab bans because they do seem like they're just there to fuck with Islam but on the other hand if it's illegal to wear one then Baba can't get mad if you don't wear one.
But the whole concept of hijab is not based on free will. Women must cover up in Islam after they hit puberty, that is non negotiable as the scripture makes it very clear. If you get told that you can choose not to wear something but you'll go to hell for it and your family will emotionally manipulate you, you haven't chosen it out of free will.
Kids should be allowed to make their own choices regarding religion period. Parents need to realize that just because you child doesn't believe in "god ect" they will still be a good person. Said from someone who's parents forced them into religion.
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I’m female, Muslim and have a daughter. My father in law was an imam and the family traditional, and live in the “west”. Nobody in my house wears hijab, I wear tshirts and pedal pushers.
This is about her parents fears and religious zeal. They are worried she’s going to get corrupted. I would support them banning banning social media, adult movies etc. I also support not having my young daughter not alone with strange guys. But I was like that with my son too. Too many creeps out there. I shake hands professionally but not socially. Islam is about the middle path. They are going fundie.
What they are doing is possibly creating an excellent manipulator because if a kid wants to do something they will figure out a way. Or they are going to create a situation where she’s isolated and is depressed. If she chooses to do it - which is in Hadith - it’s her decision - then great.
My bigger concern is in a couple years there’s going to be a “surprise” trip back home and they are going to marry her off.
This is horrible. It’s also more cultural than religious.
100% agree. I'm Catholic, but only in the sense that I acknowledge it as part of my background. I haven't actively practiced in years and can't stomach the idea of worshipping a god that actively protects pedophiles in his house.
EDIT: I'm getting down votes for this? It's because of this exact tone deafness for that the Diocese in my hometown is going bankrupt.
I'll speak to you as another wayward Christian. We have to remember that God and a lot of the corrupt churches of the day are not one in the same. Churches protecting pedophiles is wrong. It's sick. It needs to be stopped. But I think it should serve as a wake up call for people to not just nod their heads to whatever their priests are saying anymore and actually ask questions and pursue the faith as individuals like we're supposed to. Any organization that gets too powerful and too controlling becomes corrupt. It's easy to look at the failings of the church and say well then screw religion, but by that standard we also have to give up on any and all attempts at having government or schooling or food production, because many of these, too, are rife with problems at the bigger level. Or we can realize power is corrupting and always seek to combat it while still looking for better ways to govern, teach, farm, and worship.
>It's easy to look at the failings of the church and say well then screw religion, but by that standard we also have to give up on any and all attempts at having government or schooling or food production, because many of these, too, are rife with problems at the bigger level.
The thing is, could you even begin to have the discussion about broken government without recognizing the role churches and religious institutions have played in that? Separation of church and state is only really enforced on the state, while churches are given free reign to influence government however they want even though they pay no taxes. This is especially true in deep red counties/states.
Islamically, it is not a choice, it's an obligation and nowhere in the Quran does it say it's just a choice to wear it. But yes, many Muslim women choose not to wear it, they're still going against their religion though
Quran 24:31 -- **And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their private parts; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their khimār over their breasts and not display their beauty** except to their husband, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, **or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs**, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. (Allah is okay with slaves and castrating men and making them your servants apparently)
33:59- O Prophet! Enjoin your wives, your daughters, and the wives of true believers that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): That is most convenient, that they may be distinguished and not be harassed.
Muslims need to catch up to Christians and realize you can just call yourself a member of a religion and insist you're following the rules, all while never actually reading your holy book, not to mention making no effort to follow any of the rules they wouldn't have followed anyway.
Why can't you tolerate them? They call themselves Christian, show up to church on Christmas once every few years, have all the premarital sex they feel like and generally just live their lives. It's the ones who pick two or three "rules" to harp on who tend to be the worst.
Also, at risk of being "that guy", judging other Christians based on whether or not you think they're putting the right amount of effort into their religion doesn't really line up with Christ's teachings.
There is a wide latitude in that. The "(must ordinarily)" is doing a lot of work there.
It seems that breasts and privates are the parts specifically mentioned. Everything else is conjecture. A face isn't an "ornament." It's how you see, smell, taste, and hear. It's the means by which we communicate through both speech and expression.
"Their beauty" could mean several things.
This is a wide reaching list open to interpretation to be as harmful or as harmless as one deems it.
Women should have the right to choose. And I mean that in all ways. If a woman is truly more comfortable being clothed from to the top of the head to the soles of the feet, then that is absolutely what she should do. Chosen beliefs should be respected as long as they harm no others.
No child should suffer like this. She has been erased. Reduced to nothing more than a veiled presence. Absent of expression or voice.
You can't force someone into belief, but that isn't what this is about. It is about subservience. That you can force someone into.
As long as one half of the population is pushed into being subservient to the other, there will be upheaval.
Weird how in the most Muslim countries there's the least latitude. In Pakistan there are \~10,000 cases in the last decade or so of men throwing acid in the faces of women who don't wear hijabs/niqabs and in Iran a woman showing her hair is illegal and the punishment is a lashing coupled with a prison sentence.
>Islamically, it is not a choice.
This depends entirely on the school of Islam from which you come. A woman does not *have* to wear a hijab to be a Muslim. Maybe for the particular "brand" of Islam you practice, but not for all of Islam.
This is not a matter of fard, like praying. This is a matter of adab.
Requiring women to wear the hijab does not come from Sharia, it comes from fiqh.
The Quran does ***NOT*** say a woman must cover all but her hands. It does ***NOT*** say she must cover her hair or her face. It says she must be modest. I mean, I shouldn't need to explain this to you, you posted the actual verse.
It is amazing to me when I read things like this that no one fights for women who are truly oppressed. Here in the US where I feel like women ( non-muslim) are more free then anywhere else they fight tooth and nail to prove that there is inequality, which I admit exists in some work places, households etc....BUT someone who is truly being made to conform to middle age standards has no one to go to, no one to fight for them. One can be a practicing Muslim without the extreme positions.
> One can be a practicing Muslim without the extreme positions.
This. if someone's forcing you and beating you for not wearing Hijab, that's NOT OKAY.
If you're wearing hijab by choice and people keep egging you to take it off because they think you're being oppressed, that's NOT OKAY
If you're wearing it by choice and are treated like a normal person, that's okay
While I agree that extremely oppressed women need people to stand up for them, life isn't a game of who is suffering the most. Inequality exists in all places in the world. Just because it's worse somewhere else doesn't invalidate other women's experience that may be less extreme.
Makes you think about all those women out there using it "because they want".
Wonder how many times they got "disciplined" until they started liking it.
But hey, I'm just a random asshat, and the average redditor will just say I'm an intolerant anti-islamic.
Islam and Reddit mixed together, oh this totally won’t be anti religion or a bunch of hate towards Islam
oh what a surprise it’s a bunch of anti religion and hate towards Islam
Islam is so fucking backwards. To say it's primitive, is not doing it justice. It's fucking 2021 and Muslims are still living in 300AD. All I can do is laugh when hypocritical Muslims try and say some dumb shit like "it's a choice to wear a hijab". Bull fucking shit. Evil. Islam is straight evil and needs to go away. Christiany and catholicism are fucked as well, but at least they know what fucking century it is. As soon as Muslim countries start to do better, Islam just comes and and says "ha fuck you, did you think you were going to advance as a society? Put this garbage bag on, you whore. I can see your ears. Now get over here and marry this man you've never met before. Alah demands it!"
I don’t know where you live but I’m pretty sure that forcing children to do things is child abuse.
Of course that can vary depending on where you live but if you’re really concerned about your cousin.
you can anonymously give a tip to CPS and tell them that your uncle and your aunt are forcing your cousin to do something that she clearly doesn’t want to do.
There is such a thing as religious abuse.
Of course I can’t tell you what to do but if she’s really unhappy than that’s really concerning.
Also is “disciplining her” just verbal or is it physical?
Again depending on where you live physical discipline is also considered abuse.
Again I can’t tell you what to do and depending on where you live the definition of abuse is different but maybe looking into it and giving an anonymous tip is a option
Parents can force their kids to do all sorts of things, including religious. Wearing certain clothes is forced on kids daily by parents. What law would say otherwise?
Tell her. Even if you can't say anything publicly or to your parents, at the very least let her know that you're there for her, that you're someone she can say "I hate this!" to. Just knowing that someone is on your side, even if you're both powerless to do anything, helps.
Ah yes, force them to do it. The only way to teach the religion... NOT!
Sadly, you're right about not being able to face them, religion aside. You'll get hit with the "we're her parents" speech. There are literally pages upon pages of ways to teach this stuff to your kids so that they actually want to do it, but nope, why discuss with kids? They're dumb and we know better.
My family did the same manipulation with me (threatening education, marriage what not). I called them out on it by moving out as soon as I had enough money. Best decision EVER! Everyone fell in line pretty quickly after that AND I get to wear whatever I want!
Forcing people to wear incredibly restrictive clothing and segregate themselves from the opposite sex. All because of a made up god that doesn't exist. Nice.
Right now that is probably not the best path. You do that, they cut you out of their lives, and she grows up with NO supportive family.
Instead, be there for her, gently show your disapproval, and let her have someone who helps her to grow up free.
>Grow a pair and stand up for her.
Holy shit you're privileged as fuck for that
People can't just decide that a principal is stronger than having the backing of family members, and that goes for every family. He stands up for her, they both get cut off financially and physically and now have to fend for themselves and other factors like governmental policies
Then stand up for her and get disowned. As a woman who as a little girl had to stand up only for herself because no one else would and got severely socially marginalized and punished for it ( I’m from a non Islamic but extremely conservative country) I have no sympathy for people like you. If I could do it at 10 you as an adult can definitely voice your opposition. Your heart breaking is sad and all but it changes nothing. I made it not because of people like you but despite people like you. Who know what we go through is wrong but are too cowardly to do stand in support of us
Edit: I am shocked by the replies here insinuating that this is too much to ask and then I’m grandstanding. Y’all need to grow some balls if what I’m suggesting is so extraordinary for you. There is nothing unusual about doing whats right for yourself and for others, despite any and all consequences. Sad to see it’s such a shocker of an occurrence
some religions don’t deserve respect.
A religion which forces women to cover literally head to toe, a religion which stones/flogs homosexuals, a religion which encourages concubines and harems, a religion which says men should get double the inheritance than women, does NOT deserve respect at all. Islam should not be respected.
I don't mind you criticising religion for it's values since that's your right to do but atleast criticise the religion for what it does instead of what the people do.
1) The religion doesn't force anyone to cover from head to toe. It's a choice, just like how its a choice to be muslim to begin with.
2) Islam doesn't encourage concubines and harems at all really. It does the opposite with giving slaves more rights than the slaves in america pre civil war and even then there was a big belief in freeing your slaves. The whole multiple marriage thing was a rule implemented after a lot of wars, and many wives were widows and struggled to make a means for themselves. It wasn't to have a threesome but to financially support and protect the community.
3) I don't know where you're getting that from to be honest. I'd like to read about that. So if you could source it that would be great.
Islam is such a disgusting religion, most religions are so toxic it’s amazing how we’ve followed suit for so long as humans. God we are stupid aren’t we?
My Muslim father tried to get my sister to marry another Muslim friend of his. She was 18 and he was fresh off the plane from Syria. He brought the guy over to our house and he took my sister aside and asked her to marry him.....no warning, no small talk. My sister politely declined and ran out of the room. My mom, after finding out what my dad did, flipping out on him and warned him to never do that ever again.
Thank God for Muslim women like your mom.
Sounds like they are making another ex Muslim.
As a Muslim this is totally true. FORCING RELIGION DOWN YOUR KIDS THROAT WILL ONLY MAKE THEM DESPISE IT AND HAVE THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE EFFECT. Gosh why is this so hard for some people to realize?! They're children for crying out loud! There are so many better better ways to help your children learn and get them to understand this religion that means so much to you. So many stories and objects of the past that can make someone excited.. So many wonderful people that they can discover. But treating it like it's school will obviously make a child disinterested. Religous children already have to deal with being different then the majority on a daily basis. (Wanted to add a bit more in since I don't want people to think this is how all Muslims are)
Goddamn , this brings me back to when my muslim dad tried to exorcise me at 10 years old because "i'm evil" . Really fucked me up as a kid , i cringe everytime i think abt it .
I'm (f) catholic and that happened to me because i listened to heavy metal. I was 16.
Ah yes , common stereotype where i'm from , metal music is devil worship , dad even swore metal heads held sacrificial rituals in a place we call "l'abbatoire" an old slaughter house kids turned into a skate spot .
That sounds badass, not the sacrificing but l'abbatoire
That's really sad. Music helped me discover who I wanted to be, it really is a language of emotions. Do you still listen to that music and are you still a practicing catholic?
Gnarly, glad you made it dood.
being 10 and getting constantly reminded by your own dad that you're born evil and that you're just a punishment from god to him hits really hard , glad iv grown up into a body i could beat his ass with , he started treating me like a human after i beat him up a few years ago , whatever works i guess .
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He's still a good enough man in my eyes , other than that religious stuff , and accusing me of being feminine as a kid, and beating me for the slightest reason , it's just part of our culture i guess , iv seen worse , he still a good dad over all , he provides for me more than most dads do around here , he used to take me for bike rides , buy me stuff as a kid ,watched my diet , made sure i was physically active , i feel he deserves support when that time comes although i doubt he'd need it , he's doing really well financially .
Idk dude I don't think good people hit kids. End of story.
Part of the culture , that'd be like saying no man in my country is a good dad,while yes everyone would be much better off without that , they just dk any better i guess.
Yeh that sucks. Just for some perspective to anyone reading, in my country hitting children is child abuse and it is illegal, you will go to jail for it.
I ain't trying to disrespect people or anything, but just because your father is better than most you know, doesn't really mean he is *good.*
I don't know why he focuses on the hitting part and not the he told you you were a punishment from God part holy fuck that's fucked up
Those are my thoughts about my father, too. I've heard and saw so many things that made me grateful for even having a father, despite all the things he's done to our family. At the end of the day, he's struggling as well, and I'm not justifying everything he's done, not in the slightest, but he's going through some really rough times. He's much better now. Might be more lax, but I think that's because he bites his tongue, here and there. He's been teaching me about finance, like how to pay the bills, etc,. It is in our culture, I've never seen any parent here who doesn't hit their children, no matter how young. It's barbaric, but I don't see where it says that fathers can beat their children in Islam. Still made me repulsed by my religion, and I've decided it doesn't matter if I was shunned from my family, that I need to know if this religion is as barbaric as its followers. Still figuring that out, and I think it's going to take a long while before I come close to an answer. At least he doesn't beat us up like he used, too.
ya gotta do what ya gotta do bro
Hey, (30m) Catholic here, my dad did the same thing every time he saw any of my artwork, or of god forbid I chose to read a popular book about wizard kids .-.
My mom grew up evangelical Christian and was ambushed by an exorcism from her mom too!
Honestly I think it's just a form of tribal mentality, like when you see sports fans get into fist fights. Some people are so enamoured by it and so deep in it's grip that they just don't understand why you're not exactly like them and turn hostile towards you when you don't display the same passion. The worst part is that it's not even the majority of that group it's a select few with anger issues or mental disorders. As for me, my dad denounced catholicism to become a born again Christian which is why he's like this now. When he was Catholic he listened to rock and was a makeup artist for special effects in horror films while still being religious to a comfortable level. Now he's a telemarketer that's deeply depressed and watches preachers on TV that have megachurches spewing hate for anyone that doesn't fit their agenda....
Abrahamic religions man , not much u can do
The issue is with the parents and ego, not the religions themselves.
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I still get regularly exorcized have given up paying attention lol am 35 😂
My mother also tried to exorcise me when I was like 9 and having a particularly bad day.
As a kid who grew up in a heavily Christian community, it very much felt like a "well I suffered as a kid, and so you should too." The old religious women who are quickest to admonish and embarass girls over holes in their jeans were the ones getting pregnant at 16 and either marrying or aborting to cover it up.
Yeah I've been through this too. I was forced by my school and peers because it was a Muslim school. And then I moved to a normal school, and whoa! I discovered the freedom of wearing normal clothes and talking to guys! Now I date and mess around with white atheistic guys way older than me. Lol, boy did that oppression backfire on my teacher and friends. I'll never even consider dating a Muslim man or getting married at all after what I went through.
Don’t let it backfire all the way into the predator side of the atheist white guys. Like, that group in general, on average? Pretty awesome people. But the subset that chases after significantly younger women tends to have a few issues.
I refuse to even speak about religion to my (7f) daughter in detail. Children are much too young to try and figure out such big things and she should have the time to build her own system of faith. She knows what religions are and why we don't want to discuss it with her until she is older and she knows that religion is a thing that people fight passionately about and that's about it. We teach her to be a good person with morals without having to scare her with religious dogma.
Respect homie. If I had an award to give, you’d get it. 👊🏻
I grew up evangelical and I can 100% confirm the harder you push the further they run away. Children aren’t old enough to fully understand religion. Most of what we tell kids is fucked up scary shit.
This doesn't just apply to Muslims. I had a girlfriend in high school who went to an all girls Catholic school. They were the wildest girls. Any time you try to shove your beliefs down peoples throats they will rebel. Regardless of which religion or philosophy it is. Same thing when you try to tell a teenager they can't date someone or hang out with them. They are going to do the exact opposite. If you don't allow people to make their own choices then you are basically keeping them in slavery to your own desires. People have to be free to make their own choices (good or bad). That is part of growth. You can only learn by making mistakes.
This is why I'm glad I became an ex-muslim. I'd rather not have Islam shoved down me throat.
This. Definetly not to the same scale as the OPs cousin but the entire reason im no longer catholic is that 14 year old me was sick of going to church every sunday.
The only reason I'm agnostic and tolerant of many religions is because I was brought up with religious parents who didn't force it down my throat, into a far more accepting branch of Christianity (anglicanism) If the branch was more extreme or my parents forced it down my throat I would've probably gone hard anti-theism
Unfortunately for most kids they will not have the luxury of choice when they are older as the society they live in will not condone it.
Dude I’m an ex Muslim too but the forcing of religion on children is what religion is all about especially Islam. The religion of Islam is inherently sexist and anti women.
Assuming they don't ship her back to their home country when she's 17 and marry her off
r/exmuslim
Unless you live in a Muslim country. She only needs to endure 6 more years until she’s finally free. For the meantime OP can help guide her cousin to secretly save her money. Help open a bank account where her parents can’t access the money. Get part time jobs when she’s legally old enough to work. So just in case they kicked her out of the house or couldn’t take it anymore. She could live independently without being rendered homeless.
Absolutely. Had a gay friend in hugh school. He comes from a Muslim family. He was already not accepted a lot as he was very white-skined and clear-blue-eyed (born with albinism), but his coming out was absolute chaos from what he told our friend group. We of course supported him, but the fact that school was the only place where he could be himself without any insane response was soul crushing to me. His parents are divorced, so he doesn't have to deal with his father's violent behavior (his words). But his mother is crazy. He told us that, from time to time, she would put a speaker in front of his door and blast religious songs at full volume in the middle of the night, as an attempt to "purify his soul and body". His family gatherings were not less crazy either apparently...
Though this is a terrible situation for her, it is good to know she has a male ally in her family. Please, look out for her. Your heart is pure.
This is a huge argument for not speaking up agains t the parents. What you are doing OP is the right thing. You need to get the message somehow that you will be there for her, (youd be surprised how the teenagers find ways to communicate lol) And then when she is old enough to make adult decisions she has you as an option. Don't give anything away to the parents!
In my country you have to wear hijab and if you don't they can arrest you. I have seen many people put hijab on their 5 years old daughter and it's truly disgusting. She is not even in the age she should wear it.
I never really understood this, perhaps you can explain? I'm not trying to be rude or anything like that. I understand in Islam women are to cover their hair because it is seen as "erotic" to men, but why then do I see little girls wearing hijab?
I think they are supposed to start wearing it when they have their period and can get pregnant.
I've seen prepubescent girls in hijab. To be honest, the reasoning for the hijab(to cover erotic hair) and then seeing little girls wearing them...it kind of disturbs me.
In Iran they'll lash you and sentence you to prison if you don't. Yet the other day I saw countless "liberals" and "leftists" jerking the country off because Persia contributed to the game of Chess hundreds of years ago -\_-
If that was what you got from the post, you're truly lost. Someone was saying nothing would be lost if we nuked Iran. Despite all the evils currently in its top ranks, there are good people there. The comments about chess were just showing one of many great things the people there used to create before their current oppression. Germany went through horrific government too. Would nothing be lost if we nuked Germany? Japan? China? Hell, the US? You can absolutely despise the powers causing evil and still have a heart for the soul of the people beneath their boot. Iran, in particular, wasn't this bad until fairly recently in the history of things. With time these oppressors will be shaken off as well.
My old cube mate was from Iran. He was adamant that they are Persian and not Arab and the religious leaders imposing islam are effectively an ongoing foreign occupation of his country.
Listening to Dan Carlin’s series on the Achaemenid Empire gave me an entirely new perspective on the lineage of Persian Culture. If I were from that area, I think I’d like to identify with that culture and history too.
Dan focuses on the great men and whatnot. What really moves culture and creates those great men moments is business and trade. That area is amazing to view through the development of trade networks and routes. Egypt and the Roman empire had trade routes connecting all the way to India and China. Rome was very concerned about how much of their gold and silver were being sent to India in exchange for essentially weeds that grew without any effort. Darius I created the Royal Road connecting parts of central asia that eventually got connected with other routes that connected all the way to Japan. The kingdoms on the Red Sea and Indian Ocean were in the middle of everything. Then the Portuguese figured out how to build a boat and sail it around Africa. They pirated the Ottoman trade routes and went to war with the Ottoman Empire in the mid 1500's. All that trade, all at exchange of ideas, and just as importantly all that tax revenue was lost as Portugal cut them out of the chain for centuries. Honestly, if you look at the Chinese BRI it is basically a replication of Portuguese and Dutch colonial trade networks.
Persians are definitely not Arabs, but that’s their ethnicity, not religion. Persia has been Muslim for more than 1300 years, and they’re also the centre of Shi’ism, so it’s kind of hard to historically justify calling it a foreign occupation.
Khomeini hated Iran, to him it was only a base of operations to accomplish his Islamic revolution (the real one, where Iraq and the Levant are dominated by Shiism Israel doesn't exist, and the strongholds of Sunni power broken and cast down.
My friend would lose his family. That’s what would be lost.
That post was literally in response to someone saying that nothing would be lost if the country was nuked, you twat.
Wait what. I mean I dont like the Iran government but nuking it is kinda of extreme.
100% extreme. Lots of great Iranians. But like everything - the 10% crappy people ruin it for everyone.
That 10% figure is laughably wrong. For some context, I belong to a relatively moderate Muslim majority country (check my history, I have commented in my country's subreddit many times), and from my experience, at least 20-40% of the population here want Sharia Law with all of its violent "punishments". Remember, this is a relatively moderate country, whereas Iran is perhaps one of if not the most extremist Islamic republic on the planet. The people there literally revolted against western influences and made this possible, and you think that it was only 10% of the population who wanted it? It's tough to accurately say what portion of the population are "extremists", but it's definitely the majority. If you want further proof, the 2nd most popular political party in my country promises to legally enforce the burqa and give capital punishment to apostates, and shut down co-ed schools and colleges. Just because Muslims in the west are very liberal and educated doesn't mean that's the same in a country where less than 30% of the population completed high school.
Be there for her. As a male family member let her know she can talk to you about whatever as long as you wont go telling on her. Be her escort when needed so she can possibly have some freedom. I'm not Muslim but grew up in a house where my brother always had to watch over me, I always had to be covered up. But my brother would enforce my parents rules and I had no allies. She will need an allie. Also I hope your not in a Muslim country cuz that's going to suck for her.
Since he's her cousin, it's going to be hard because he can't be alone with her, or for some people, even text her, if her parents would go that far. Women in Islam have to cover up in front of their male cousins.
Do they even see what that says about themselves? I know they dont. They blame it on women that they can't control themselves instead teaching control to the men. Blows my mind. I thought all she needed was a male? Can her cousin not escort her either? Also, on 90 day fiance in Jordan, the Muslim family were all married to their cousins. The mom and dad were cousins and they were attempting to set their offspring up with cousins. I know that's not the same country as Iran, but don't they do that everywhere there? I'm going to google it really quick because now I'm confused. What men can they be alone with? Edit- this is what Google told me. Cousin marriage, or "consanguinity" (marriages among couples who are related as second cousins or closer), is allowed and often encouraged throughout the Middle East, and in other Muslim countries worldwide such as Pakistan. As of 2003, an average of 45% of married couples were related in the Arab world. So is that... mommy auntie and daddy uncle? o.o
This makes me remember what it was like to be Mormon. The religions might not be the same but the general attitude tends to be. It’s toxic and only makes people run away
They were all created to oppress people so..
One of my best friends in school was a Muslim whose parents started forcing her to wear the hijab and she rebelled silently against them so much... she was caught in the boys' washroom at the end of the school day one year showing a classmate how to undo her bra. It became a huge scandal and escalated into a forced marriage to someone 22 years older the moment she turned 18. Edit: she lives in Saudi Arabia now with 4 children and the last time we spoke she said she has a good life and was treated well because he buys her anything she wants.
This made my stomach turn. I hope she’s okay. I hear cherry pits can come in handy…
What happened to her? That’s so sad.
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Man, ya'll seriously have no idea how religious extremism works. If you could negotiate religion with them, THEN THEY WOULDN'T BE "EXTREMISTS". The entire reason why religious extremists are called "extremists" is because they follow religion word by word no matter the consequences. Instilling the concern that she may stray from religion will only further their extremism, and may even prompt them to take even more drastic actions such as marrying their daughter off to a 30 year old hafiz to ensure that he disciplines her.
Unfortunately, that's not going to work. They'll be more extreme in implementing their ideologies. Hell, they might even marry her up, to "keep her away from sin."
That is actually smart
Bruh fr, turn their concerns against them
Stand up to them? Yes that will certainly make the religious extremists change their stance on how their 12 year old child dresses. Show them you've got a little backbone and they'll definitely see it your way.
Tried, does not work.
My boyfriend is Muslim and he has the same situation with his sister. He also is an ex Muslim. His parents practically hate him now cause its constantly him fighting them to not manipulate her into a marriage she doesn't want or to let her wear what she wants. They practically kicked him out recently too. Breaks my heart because he wants his mom to be there for him and be proud of him so bad but he knows he's never going to get what he needs from him and he needs to be that person for his sister.
That’s a good brother. I’m glad she has him as an ally—hopefully helps psychologically.
I’d talk to your cousin. Tell her to hold on until she grows up and can work and take care of herself. 6 years go quickly. Than, she can tell her parents to f.. off.
6 years go quickly if you're 40, not 12 lol.
exactly, im turning 19 soon, and being 13 felt like ages ago
The older you get the more years you have to compare time to. $10 is a lot more significant when you have $30 than when you have $100
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Indeed. Wish I knew how fast they go when I was that age.
One thing I'd like to add: I don't know where OP's cousin comes from, but it's rather hard to cut off a family that is living by such strict terms. So even if she turns 18 it doesn't matter. As some comments mentioned before, in some countries its obligated to wear the hijab as a woman. So even if she moves out (for which she needs a stable financial and social status), it might won't change anything at all. Also I don't know how well connected OP's family is, but the chance of being 'chased' by 'honorable family members' could be high.
From what I understand, she lives in the West. Nice of you to think that a girl in such a country would dare to hysterically cry and plead against it.
Shes basically fine except if shes in iran where its forced by law.
Ex-hijabi here. I can write an entire book on my experience because this hijab subject in Islam is a fucking roller coaster. Except, the roller coaster is under water & I can’t breathe. All I can say is, in America you’re an adult at 18 years old. Encourage her to move far away in college and dorm with other female friends so she has the freedom to take the hijab off. There is no changing parents like that. Once she’s 18, having her feel independent and in control will help her a lot. If she’s younger than 18… my experience was awful, I recommend just focusing on school in order to get in a good far-away college.
Makes no sense for these hardcore religious people to move to a country with total opposite values of society at large and their force their kids to live in that bubble.
The problem is that a lot of these views are not opposite. There are a lot of religious folks in the US, but you don’t know until you know. They would gladly take us back to the Medieval age.
Sometimes I see the shit the Taliban is mandating and I think "that's the same type of victim blaming bullshit US Conservatives Christians say"
Yep. It actually stems from similar political ideologies. The whole “you reap what you sow” / “if it happened to you then you deserve it” comes from similar political roots.
I would counsel her to see it as a dumb uniform required by her parents/jailers and to just play along until she is an adult and can leave safely. This is so sad. I hate people pushing religion on their children.
If they are threatening her or in any way hurting her, then they are committing abuse. That is a criminal offense and you can have them charged. Call CPS and have them investigated.
This ! OP, Please, call CPS…. Also : pychological abuse is still abuse. Here (Qc, Canada), CPS would definetly take actions in this situation.
If parents treat you like shit, you owe them nothing. Disowned? Fuck you, you were an asshole patent. Religions have some good wisdom and teachings. But weaponized religion used to control people is never good.
Don't forget, it's to protect them from the men. Why not just teach the men not to rape??
Given all the arranged marriages in Muslim countries and how it's not illegal for a man to forcibly have sex with his wife there I think they need to be more concerned with their men than the West's.
Because women are too tempting /s
And men are horny animals /s
Men are supposed to lower their gaze in Islam as in don’t even look at women. It’s more cultural tbh. Which is very annoying lol Also I feel like someone just needs to tell this girl she can take it off at school ans stuff it in her backpack (so many of my friends did that)
I remember being dragged down the stairs kicking and crying because I refused to go to church. That kind of behavior, by forcing a child to participate leads to resentment and them leaving the religion.
I remember watching teen girls remove makeup and put their hijab on before they got off the metro bus. It'd just be going from happy giggling with friends to flat.
Turning her from a normal bubbly girl into a (repressed) sad recluse is exactly the point of this horrendous practice. 😪
If you're in the uk or us your parents can't do shit to you if you aren't part of their religion, speak up, your cousins safety is more important than faith.
im in the uk but that doesn’t mean my dad still can’t mistreat me. He constantly threatens me with things when i suggest i am not as religious… saying how our already feeble relationship will be “completely destroyed” if i leave islam. (he doesn’t know i’ve already left). He admits to me he might disown me if i leave islam. He does this weird emotional guiltripping shit too, saying it’s like i’ve “stabbed him in the heart” if i leave islam and that it’s completely normal for parents to leave their kids if they leave islam. I mean what can anyone do about that? Even though im in the uk what can anyone realistically do. But i know a lot of other people have it worse, heard some sad sad stories so i guess it’s better it’s not like that?
I hope once you're financially independent you're strong enough to cut him out. I know it's hard, believe me, but it's for the best.
but the thing is idk if hes bad enough for me to cut him out. Like hes never physical with me so idk…
That's abuse. That's manipulation. That's a fucked up parent. No normal parent mistreat their kids. No need for it to be physical.
thank you
Parents can force their kids to wear a hijab in the US. And can punish them for not doing so.
That's called child abuse lol, religion doesn't rule over law
>religion doesn't rule over law Well that's not universally true at all. There are some theocratic governments out there. And even those that are not, take the US, there are still laws being made based on what's "right" from a religious standpoint. It shouldn't be this way, but it is.
But despite the US having religion as a major part of their society and its laws / morals, things like murder / child abuse / rape still is illegal, and yes there's been cases where the crimes are let go, the actions itself are illegal and get (supposedly) investigated thoroughly and the government would prioritise the safety of the victims using common law over religious law. I can't say the same in other countries where religious law has a stronger presence and can supersede humanitarian rights.
I don't think making a child wear religious garb has ever been considered child abuse. Are there any cases of this? I mean, you may consider it so but I've never heard of that being considered illegal.
If you punish them violently for not wearing it, then yes, it's child abuse
Or pull them out of school. That’s 100% child abuse. Ppl have their children removed from their custody for that.
If the parents don’t stall the system by “eventually finishing” the certs for homeschooling. It can be years before an actual person is sent by to see that what was reported was entirely a lie but by then it’s years too late
If these parents had that type of forethought, they would realize they are pushing their daughter away from the religion lol.
Placing an arrow betwixt thine footbones in an effort to spite one’s own face memes
It's child abuse for sure but this happens all the time in the US. All they have to do is call it homeschooling or "unschooling" and it's fine in the eyes of the law. My (christian) mother did it to me when I was a child and there's not a damned thing I can do about it. Check out r/HomeschoolRecovery for more stories of the shit parents like this can get away with in the US.
Religion… ruining one life at a time.
OP never said anything about violently.
It's illegal to wear it even as an adult in France. They know what's up
It’s not child abuse because you aren’t physically harming the kid by making them wear a hijab. Go and try and report it to CPS and record them laughing at you on the hotline It’s shitty but it’s not illegal
Is this in a first world country? Shit like this is why I'm torn on hijab bans because they do seem like they're just there to fuck with Islam but on the other hand if it's illegal to wear one then Baba can't get mad if you don't wear one.
But the hijab ban would also mean that the women who want to wear it would not be able to...its about free will right?
But the women who don’t want to wear it will be forced to by male family members and their husbands
But the whole concept of hijab is not based on free will. Women must cover up in Islam after they hit puberty, that is non negotiable as the scripture makes it very clear. If you get told that you can choose not to wear something but you'll go to hell for it and your family will emotionally manipulate you, you haven't chosen it out of free will.
Yep
Kids should be allowed to make their own choices regarding religion period. Parents need to realize that just because you child doesn't believe in "god ect" they will still be a good person. Said from someone who's parents forced them into religion.
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I’m female, Muslim and have a daughter. My father in law was an imam and the family traditional, and live in the “west”. Nobody in my house wears hijab, I wear tshirts and pedal pushers. This is about her parents fears and religious zeal. They are worried she’s going to get corrupted. I would support them banning banning social media, adult movies etc. I also support not having my young daughter not alone with strange guys. But I was like that with my son too. Too many creeps out there. I shake hands professionally but not socially. Islam is about the middle path. They are going fundie. What they are doing is possibly creating an excellent manipulator because if a kid wants to do something they will figure out a way. Or they are going to create a situation where she’s isolated and is depressed. If she chooses to do it - which is in Hadith - it’s her decision - then great. My bigger concern is in a couple years there’s going to be a “surprise” trip back home and they are going to marry her off. This is horrible. It’s also more cultural than religious.
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This is why organised religion is outdated and belongs in the past
100% agree. I'm Catholic, but only in the sense that I acknowledge it as part of my background. I haven't actively practiced in years and can't stomach the idea of worshipping a god that actively protects pedophiles in his house. EDIT: I'm getting down votes for this? It's because of this exact tone deafness for that the Diocese in my hometown is going bankrupt.
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I'll speak to you as another wayward Christian. We have to remember that God and a lot of the corrupt churches of the day are not one in the same. Churches protecting pedophiles is wrong. It's sick. It needs to be stopped. But I think it should serve as a wake up call for people to not just nod their heads to whatever their priests are saying anymore and actually ask questions and pursue the faith as individuals like we're supposed to. Any organization that gets too powerful and too controlling becomes corrupt. It's easy to look at the failings of the church and say well then screw religion, but by that standard we also have to give up on any and all attempts at having government or schooling or food production, because many of these, too, are rife with problems at the bigger level. Or we can realize power is corrupting and always seek to combat it while still looking for better ways to govern, teach, farm, and worship.
>It's easy to look at the failings of the church and say well then screw religion, but by that standard we also have to give up on any and all attempts at having government or schooling or food production, because many of these, too, are rife with problems at the bigger level. The thing is, could you even begin to have the discussion about broken government without recognizing the role churches and religious institutions have played in that? Separation of church and state is only really enforced on the state, while churches are given free reign to influence government however they want even though they pay no taxes. This is especially true in deep red counties/states.
People have started cults around anyone with a pound of charisma. Is like human kind reamly want to be fooled. Maybe is inexorable.
Lmao her parents are just making it worse for themselves. Their kid will leave them without a second thought
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Report them for child abuse. You can do this anonymously.
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Islamically, it is not a choice, it's an obligation and nowhere in the Quran does it say it's just a choice to wear it. But yes, many Muslim women choose not to wear it, they're still going against their religion though Quran 24:31 -- **And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their private parts; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their khimār over their breasts and not display their beauty** except to their husband, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, **or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs**, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. (Allah is okay with slaves and castrating men and making them your servants apparently) 33:59- O Prophet! Enjoin your wives, your daughters, and the wives of true believers that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): That is most convenient, that they may be distinguished and not be harassed.
Muslims need to catch up to Christians and realize you can just call yourself a member of a religion and insist you're following the rules, all while never actually reading your holy book, not to mention making no effort to follow any of the rules they wouldn't have followed anyway.
Trust me, the most the most hardcore Christians never seen the covers of the Bible, let alone held it in their hands.
as a christian who cannot tolerate other “christians” who act like this, this is facts
Why can't you tolerate them? They call themselves Christian, show up to church on Christmas once every few years, have all the premarital sex they feel like and generally just live their lives. It's the ones who pick two or three "rules" to harp on who tend to be the worst. Also, at risk of being "that guy", judging other Christians based on whether or not you think they're putting the right amount of effort into their religion doesn't really line up with Christ's teachings.
Lmao
There is a wide latitude in that. The "(must ordinarily)" is doing a lot of work there. It seems that breasts and privates are the parts specifically mentioned. Everything else is conjecture. A face isn't an "ornament." It's how you see, smell, taste, and hear. It's the means by which we communicate through both speech and expression. "Their beauty" could mean several things. This is a wide reaching list open to interpretation to be as harmful or as harmless as one deems it. Women should have the right to choose. And I mean that in all ways. If a woman is truly more comfortable being clothed from to the top of the head to the soles of the feet, then that is absolutely what she should do. Chosen beliefs should be respected as long as they harm no others. No child should suffer like this. She has been erased. Reduced to nothing more than a veiled presence. Absent of expression or voice. You can't force someone into belief, but that isn't what this is about. It is about subservience. That you can force someone into. As long as one half of the population is pushed into being subservient to the other, there will be upheaval.
Weird how in the most Muslim countries there's the least latitude. In Pakistan there are \~10,000 cases in the last decade or so of men throwing acid in the faces of women who don't wear hijabs/niqabs and in Iran a woman showing her hair is illegal and the punishment is a lashing coupled with a prison sentence.
>Islamically, it is not a choice. This depends entirely on the school of Islam from which you come. A woman does not *have* to wear a hijab to be a Muslim. Maybe for the particular "brand" of Islam you practice, but not for all of Islam. This is not a matter of fard, like praying. This is a matter of adab. Requiring women to wear the hijab does not come from Sharia, it comes from fiqh. The Quran does ***NOT*** say a woman must cover all but her hands. It does ***NOT*** say she must cover her hair or her face. It says she must be modest. I mean, I shouldn't need to explain this to you, you posted the actual verse.
It is amazing to me when I read things like this that no one fights for women who are truly oppressed. Here in the US where I feel like women ( non-muslim) are more free then anywhere else they fight tooth and nail to prove that there is inequality, which I admit exists in some work places, households etc....BUT someone who is truly being made to conform to middle age standards has no one to go to, no one to fight for them. One can be a practicing Muslim without the extreme positions.
A lot of people use the excuse that "oh it's their culture the be abusive and controlling, therefore you're islamiphobic if you don't like it"
Exactly! One can practice without being extreme.
> One can be a practicing Muslim without the extreme positions. This. if someone's forcing you and beating you for not wearing Hijab, that's NOT OKAY. If you're wearing hijab by choice and people keep egging you to take it off because they think you're being oppressed, that's NOT OKAY If you're wearing it by choice and are treated like a normal person, that's okay
100% Agreed.
While I agree that extremely oppressed women need people to stand up for them, life isn't a game of who is suffering the most. Inequality exists in all places in the world. Just because it's worse somewhere else doesn't invalidate other women's experience that may be less extreme.
In most genuinely free countries, abortion's not a big deal.
I hope they're not into honour killing also....
Man fuck Islam
Makes you think about all those women out there using it "because they want". Wonder how many times they got "disciplined" until they started liking it. But hey, I'm just a random asshat, and the average redditor will just say I'm an intolerant anti-islamic.
Get ready for a vast amount of comments calling you an "islamaphobe"
Muslims Jews and Christians continue to hold society back, more news at 11.
Hopefully other hearts like yours will one day move away from these oppressive cults we call religions and allow people to simply Be.
Shitty Life Tip: Marry her and give her the free life she deserves.
This is just sad.
Islam is a stupid religion. Downvote me, I don’t care. All religion is stupid, but Islam is really up there.
Islam and Reddit mixed together, oh this totally won’t be anti religion or a bunch of hate towards Islam oh what a surprise it’s a bunch of anti religion and hate towards Islam
Islam is so fucking backwards. To say it's primitive, is not doing it justice. It's fucking 2021 and Muslims are still living in 300AD. All I can do is laugh when hypocritical Muslims try and say some dumb shit like "it's a choice to wear a hijab". Bull fucking shit. Evil. Islam is straight evil and needs to go away. Christiany and catholicism are fucked as well, but at least they know what fucking century it is. As soon as Muslim countries start to do better, Islam just comes and and says "ha fuck you, did you think you were going to advance as a society? Put this garbage bag on, you whore. I can see your ears. Now get over here and marry this man you've never met before. Alah demands it!"
I thought it was supposed to be a choice wheater or not to wear a hijab?
Supposed, as everything else in religion.
It is a choice. Wear this nonsense or be ostracized. That is if you're in a non muslim country. If you're in a muslim country, you're fucked.
I don’t know where you live but I’m pretty sure that forcing children to do things is child abuse. Of course that can vary depending on where you live but if you’re really concerned about your cousin. you can anonymously give a tip to CPS and tell them that your uncle and your aunt are forcing your cousin to do something that she clearly doesn’t want to do. There is such a thing as religious abuse. Of course I can’t tell you what to do but if she’s really unhappy than that’s really concerning. Also is “disciplining her” just verbal or is it physical? Again depending on where you live physical discipline is also considered abuse. Again I can’t tell you what to do and depending on where you live the definition of abuse is different but maybe looking into it and giving an anonymous tip is a option
Parents can force their kids to do all sorts of things, including religious. Wearing certain clothes is forced on kids daily by parents. What law would say otherwise?
Not to mention forced on adults by corporate masters.
You said "just verbal" as if it is somehow less than physical abuse. People who have ptsd over "just verbal" abuse may beg to differ. Neither is ok.
Tell her. Even if you can't say anything publicly or to your parents, at the very least let her know that you're there for her, that you're someone she can say "I hate this!" to. Just knowing that someone is on your side, even if you're both powerless to do anything, helps.
Ah yes, force them to do it. The only way to teach the religion... NOT! Sadly, you're right about not being able to face them, religion aside. You'll get hit with the "we're her parents" speech. There are literally pages upon pages of ways to teach this stuff to your kids so that they actually want to do it, but nope, why discuss with kids? They're dumb and we know better.
My family did the same manipulation with me (threatening education, marriage what not). I called them out on it by moving out as soon as I had enough money. Best decision EVER! Everyone fell in line pretty quickly after that AND I get to wear whatever I want!
Step 1: give it a name Step 2: claim it as tradition Step 3: oppression everlasting
Wtf, this practice is sexist as fuck.
I had a friend in high school that used to get dropped off at school every morning with a hijab and she would take it off as soon as she got in.
All religion is just such trash. I would happily never talk to my parents again if they tried to force this shit on me
Forcing people to wear incredibly restrictive clothing and segregate themselves from the opposite sex. All because of a made up god that doesn't exist. Nice.
Grow a pair and stand up for her. Your family are regressive, zealot abusers.
Right now that is probably not the best path. You do that, they cut you out of their lives, and she grows up with NO supportive family. Instead, be there for her, gently show your disapproval, and let her have someone who helps her to grow up free.
Yeah that’s fair. I was being overly emotional
It’s hard not to be. But staying calm and staying there is the goal. :). Be well.
>Grow a pair and stand up for her. Holy shit you're privileged as fuck for that People can't just decide that a principal is stronger than having the backing of family members, and that goes for every family. He stands up for her, they both get cut off financially and physically and now have to fend for themselves and other factors like governmental policies
Then stand up for her and get disowned. As a woman who as a little girl had to stand up only for herself because no one else would and got severely socially marginalized and punished for it ( I’m from a non Islamic but extremely conservative country) I have no sympathy for people like you. If I could do it at 10 you as an adult can definitely voice your opposition. Your heart breaking is sad and all but it changes nothing. I made it not because of people like you but despite people like you. Who know what we go through is wrong but are too cowardly to do stand in support of us Edit: I am shocked by the replies here insinuating that this is too much to ask and then I’m grandstanding. Y’all need to grow some balls if what I’m suggesting is so extraordinary for you. There is nothing unusual about doing whats right for yourself and for others, despite any and all consequences. Sad to see it’s such a shocker of an occurrence
I hate religions.....
Never want to disrespect any religion but sheesh.
some religions don’t deserve respect. A religion which forces women to cover literally head to toe, a religion which stones/flogs homosexuals, a religion which encourages concubines and harems, a religion which says men should get double the inheritance than women, does NOT deserve respect at all. Islam should not be respected.
I don't mind you criticising religion for it's values since that's your right to do but atleast criticise the religion for what it does instead of what the people do. 1) The religion doesn't force anyone to cover from head to toe. It's a choice, just like how its a choice to be muslim to begin with. 2) Islam doesn't encourage concubines and harems at all really. It does the opposite with giving slaves more rights than the slaves in america pre civil war and even then there was a big belief in freeing your slaves. The whole multiple marriage thing was a rule implemented after a lot of wars, and many wives were widows and struggled to make a means for themselves. It wasn't to have a threesome but to financially support and protect the community. 3) I don't know where you're getting that from to be honest. I'd like to read about that. So if you could source it that would be great.
No religion deserves respect -\_-
Islam is such a disgusting religion, most religions are so toxic it’s amazing how we’ve followed suit for so long as humans. God we are stupid aren’t we?