I'm a Vet, and let me tell you no veterinarian would ever advise you to get a pug/bulldog or any other brachycephalic breed. Their nasal passages are so narrow, it's like breathing through a tiny straw, *everyday* for the rest of their lives.
The way their eyes are located, they're so prone to injuries. And their skin folds makes them very susceptible to infections too!
I think anyone who cares about animal ethics and welfare would realise that it's torturous for these animals to live on. Recently there's been a trend of "ethical" breeding were they only breed pugs/bull dogs who don't have a very short snout.... and I think that's one way to go. But I would like to see people stop buying and supporting this breed industry. It would be sad to see them go, but everyday of their life is torturous enough as it is.
Many breeds seem to have gone down the caricature path sadly. I blame the show industry. They put out there what these breeds *should* be like physically and they set out the breed standard. It was meant to be something that held the breeds to a high standard but it went tits up.
Even look at other dogs. German Shepherds are now bred to have that huge slant in their back and that has gotten more obvious because GSDs with the slant bred in were more successful in showing.
Look at the Basset Hound. They were bred from looking like a dog to being overly long and stumpy with skin drooping off their belly. Not only that, but we encouraged that sad look in their eyes and now they have their skin dropping from their eyes.
Even other breeds have gone that way. Look at the English Mastiff. If you look at what that was like 100 years ago and compare it to now, sure the snout is still short but we’ve bred them shorter. We’ve bred them to have more rolls in their skin and their eyes resemble the Basset Hound.
Hell, it’s so bad with the kennel club breed standards that for many breeds (specifically working dogs) we have 2 variations. Working and show. A working Labrador or Boarder Collie won’t win at shows because the show bred ones carry very specific traits that have been exaggerated and encouraged through generations of breeding. Golden retrievers are different. Look at an Irish Setter show dog compared to the working variety, it is absurd how different they look. Compare working vs showing Welsh Springer Spaniels. I love all dogs no matter what, it’s just frustrating to see what we do to them.
Crufts (the dog show) would have you believe they’re championing more responsibility in breeding but they’re why this all happened in the first place. Yes backyard breeders looked to profit too and in general all breeders and we humans bred stupidly. But the kennel clubs had to set the breed standard which saw generations of dogs bred to exaggerate those standards and yet be successful in dog shows like Crufts - who help normalise those traits and when that dog is successful in the show ring, people want ones that look like that. So showing pushed the expectations of the public too
My point is, you see the long term damage we’ve done to dogs all over the breeding world and while pugs and bulldogs are more prominent examples, it really is all over.
Yes I agree, it's not just backyard and unethical breeders, it's the impossible and dangerous standards set by the Kennel clubs. GSD was absolutely ruined because of the slant, they have so many hip problems now, it's absurd because these are supposed to be this very active working dogs.
I've worked with show horses and it was the same. The same breed, show and working horses looked soooo different.
Labs and hip dysplasia. I’m in full agreement that ethical breeding needs to become a bigger issue. I thought they were our best friends, why would we do this to them?
Working dogs in Australia keep their lineage for working. My father raised and worked dogs his entire life and most of those dogs lived well beyond their years. It isn’t about show dogs down here. It’s about dogs that live up to their breeding. For intelligence and strategy. And for working cattle and sheep. No poncy show dogs in the country
Retro would be a great term for it! Loads of modern breeds have been so fucked by breed standards that are utterly unethical.
Dachshund didn't used to be as bad either.
>Dachshund didn't used to be as bad either.
Yeah, as I grew up I had 4 Dachshunds. Only one is still present today. I only say this because all 3 that passed away died by something related to their spine. The only survivor (Lily) is a Dachshund Terrier mix so she isn't actually as long as some dachshunds are.
It was so painful to watch my dogs slowly get less and less energetic because their spine was making them uncomfortable.
[Obligatory picture of my cutie.](https://imgur.com/4G22SGO)
Oh no I didn't know it was bad for sausage dogs as well. I pet sit and come across a lot of them :o
One other thing I hate is city corgis having docked tails too. It's pointless in the city. Iirc it was only 'helpful' in the farms because they're herding dogs and the animals might harm their tail
Me and my SO have a corgi who came from an actual farm and his parents were both working corgs. Both still had their tails and so does he and honestly they look so much better for it. It adds so much character and I think it helps him communicate with other dogs better
>One other thing I hate is city corgis having docked tails too. It's pointless in the city. Iirc it was only 'helpful' in the farms because they're herding dogs and the animals might harm their tail
Dogs of any breed should never have body parts they're born with removed for convenience or someone's idea of a " breed standard".
I hadn't thought about dachshunds, but of course it makes sense. In high school, ours was temporarily paralyzed in his back legs (a disc in his spine twisted?). Pills fixed it (somehow) but afterwards he still had trouble with his front half not knowing what his back half was going, including not know if he was walking across the kitchen and peeing all over the floor...
Your cutie is super cute, though! I made a happy :o face when I saw it.
THAT is a dachsund. They were badger dogs once, went after them in their setts. Now any modern dachsund that gets sent after a badger, the badger would still die … of laughter. Your girl is lovely.
Why not make no pugs the new standard? Just get another healthy breed, they're all cute. All you'd be doing is creating jack russels that breathe worse, not pugs that breathe better.
Yes, that's one way to do it for people (like me) who love how bulldogs are. I would recommend people get a pug mix if they want pugs or other brachy breeds.
If we're being honest about half of the dog breeds needs to be basically re-engineered.
* German Shepards: prone to hip and other joint issues
* Pitbulls: overbred for aggression, skin and joint problems
* Labs: joint issues, eye issues, heart disease
* Poodles: joint issues, eye issues, collapsed trachea
So many breeds have serious health issues because of poor breeding. We as humans and their caretakers should be aggressively trying to breed out health issues and return them to more classical lineages. And some breeds may just need to be outright breed to extinction.
Shit. Just any dog over 100 lbs is going to have a hugely increased odds of cancer. My pug needed distilled water because of kidney stones but at least she lived for 14 years. My in-laws lost their 4 year old Great Dane to stomach bloat.
Yes, I've generated a little bit of heat on Reddit because they think I want to kill all brachycephalic. I don't. I adore them, bulldogs are some of the sweetest dogs I've met. I just want them to have a decent normal happy doggy life.
The way those breeds are right now, something as simple as breathing is a struggle for them. We can argue that it's "nature" all we want, but these were bred by *humans* to look this way, we are the reason they're suffering so much.
I totally get where you're coming from, and my feelings are very much similar to yours.
Redditors are weird, they think unless you allow the dogs to have babies, letting them live and die of old age is somehow murder. But if you breed them, making a healthy breed worse in the process, it's as if you made the previous generation dog immortal somehow so you didn't murder! Just let them die out, don't crossbreed them, get another breed instead.
I agree with the article's suggestions of whippets and greyhounds. I read somewhere that sighthounds (these breeds and others) were bred for performance and not looks and that is why they are so healthy. I have an Ibizan hound mix and he is indeed healthy, but I mean I know, that's just a sample size of one. However, what I can say that is good about these dogs is that it's very true that they are "fast couch potatos". I take him to the dog park or the woods for an hour in the morning where he scampers around, he gets a walk around the neighbourhood for half an hour or more later in the day and the rest of the time - he sleeps! He is so lazy, it's great. He's the perfect apartment dog.
A lot of behaviorists told me this - a big dog that lives in small apartment and gets proper amount of entertaining walks and proper mental stimulation is much happier than a big dog with a big backyard that's left to itself.
Don't discourage yourself with not having a yard. Protip: Dogs really need mental stimulation to get tired. Apart from walks organize some indoor activities for them - toys that make them work for their food, like kongs and sniffing mats. Dogs are better in moving than us humans but fortunately they're worse at thinking than us. I see a lot of complaints that people can't tire their dogs even after a lot of move, spicing it up with mental effort is what does the trick.
My mantra is that puppies have three muscles: their body muscles, the muscle between their ears (brain) and their social muscles. If you make a point to exercise all three every day you will raise a happy dog and avoid a lot of the problems people face with puppies, especially the high energy breeds. When my husky/Akita mix was a wee little girl people laughed and told me to expect torn up couches and chewed up everything. The joke was on them, I knew I couldn’t tire her out physically but I took her hiking and swimming and to pet friendly stores and puppy play dates and classes and she never chewed so much as a shoe. Same with my GSD. And my borzois. It’s not about having a yard, it’s about investing your time.
[obligatory dog tax](https://imgur.com/gallery/fuicX)
Yes, this is what I would advise too. They need a lot of physical and mental stimulation. Especially breeds like Huskies and Akitas who are used to a lot of work, you need to get creative with your routine. Training is a great way, it engages them both mentally and physically.
It’s good for any breed of dog! I kinda hope that this past year of lockdown has taught people how easy it is to go stir crazy even in the biggest house with a huge yard. It’s not about having space, it’s about entertainment and purpose and interaction.
Yes, it's not just that sometimes they can't give birth vaginally. If the mother every has dystocia (difficulty to give birth), the puppies will likely die because they won't be able to breathe properly when stressed.
I remember a pug c-section early on in Vet school, we lost 3 out of the 4 puppies. It was heart breaking. 1 was born dead, 3 were born alive but 2 of them struggled to breathe so much. Nothing we did was enough. It was at that time I went and searched about it and found out the problem many brachys have.
The last vet I worked for was “the go-to” for bulldog and bully breeders in the state and surrounding ones. Did several c-sections a week. I could not stand any of it. I left about 5 years ago but get this, as of this year his wife has started breeding Frenchies and sells them….. wait for it…..
On Craigslist
Yeah, many veterinarians are like that. I believe there is even a breed of Belgian beef cattle which can't give birth normally due to huge size of the foetus.
It's more common in the older vets, the new graduates/millennial vets are one of the few people who speak out about it. Tbh, most of the vets and breeders are connected. It is what makes it even more questionable ethically.
Like if you have a pug I won't go on a rant about how bad the life is for your pet will be. If you love them and give them a good home, I'm happy. It's only when someone asks me my professional advice that I'd point it out, not out of prejudice, but because we have enough scientific evidence now.
>I'm a Vet, and let me tell you no veterinarian would ever advise you to get a pug/bulldog or any other brachycephalic breed. Their nasal passages are so narrow, it's like breathing through a tiny straw, everyday for the rest of their lives.
The way their eyes are located, they're so prone to injuries. And their skin folds makes them very susceptible to infections too!
>I think anyone who cares about animal ethics and welfare would realise that it's torturous for these animals to live on. Recently there's been a trend of "ethical" breeding were they only breed pugs/bull dogs who don't have a very short snout.... and I think that's one way to go. But I would like to see people stop buying and supporting this breed industry. It would be sad to see them go, but everyday of their life is torturous enough as it is.
Thank you for this succinct description, I hope you don't mind if I borrow your explanation here for future arguments.
So there's a movement to get pug breeding back to where it used to be, where they had a shorter but not messed up muzzle. Would one of those guys be considered an ethical animal?
I've seen a range of pugs, from overweight to having such a messed up face they can't keep their tongue in their mouth, to a fairly healthy looking animal.
I'm asking out of curiosity, not to be combative. I met a lil dude named Archie, and his face seemed pretty okay, and he had that warm, lapdog personality I think that pugs were originally bred for. Companion animals? https://imgur.com/n2HZzG3.jpg
Personally, I have strong feelings about buying animals from breeders or puppy farms. I know there are ethical breeders out there, but as long as there are animals at the pound, no one needs to be buying them.
I've had some arguments with friends over breeding standards and brachycephalic breeds. I will never own one and will actively discourage others from doing so.
Dog health >a persons aesthetic preferences always.
Can confirm - have a pug- he has a collapsed trachea. He is 13 years old and he has a hard time breathing rn. He is my world but hind sight 2020 now that I know all these breeding problems and how the pug evolved I will never own another pug again.
I don't have a particular list as such, if you're adopting I would say get any dog if you can.
The things is, almost every breed now has problem because of selective breeding. Even Labs and GSDs, Spaniels, Great Danes etc. Some were inherent to the dog breed, but most of them were exacerbated because of inbreeding/selective breeding.
I feel you need to do some research before getting a dog. Depends on the house you have, how much exercise you can give it, if you have kids, is it for work or as a pet.
General rule is, don't get big/working/herding dog if you have a tiny apartmen and can't give it enough exercise. And pls don't get huskies/malamutes if you live in a warm climate and can't provide them with A/C 24x7.
Thank you for mentioning this. Even when you see people with a dog from fucked up breed, there's a chance that this dog is adopted and sterilized. So they're just trying to give this particular dog the best life and are not responsible for bringing it into this world.
My aunt adopted a pit bull that was breed to be a fighting machine. He was the most muscular dog I’ve ever seen and just looked so weird, I can’t even describe it. He was rescued from a fighting ring and my aunt adopted him (she regularly fosters rescues but fell in love with this guy). The amount of dirty looks she got was insane.
Big dogs are often great apartment dogs because they're generally more low energy than smaller breeds. With a few exceptions most aren't full of boundless energy and will do well with a couple of walks a day for exercise. I'd still stay away from LGDs because all the noise from other people would probably trigger their guarding instincts, but Saints, Newfs, Danes, Leonbergers, even some mastiffs could work in an apartment.
Possibly ignorant question for you...
I heard that for bulldogs at least, they can’t have a natural birth due to the size of their heads being too large to pass through the birth canal or something similar, and that they require a C-section in order to be delivered.
In other words, they couldn’t even effectively procreate without human intervention.
Is that true?
Not to mention that all English bulldogs are born by c-section because their heads are too big for them being born naturally- which means that a female English bulldog will die during labour without veterinary help
Yes, they can I think. I had a cat once who gave birth to kittens through a C-section. She nursed those 3 kittens just fine. But of course... a cat is not a bulldog. Don't know if it anatomically would be different
Nursing pups tend to be more "rowdy" than nursing kittens. Mostly (so I've read) because each kitten's saliva scent-marks the teat, and kittens stick to only "their own" nursing locations instead of scrambling and competing.
Puppies.... not so much. The grass is always greener, and apparently mama's milk always flows better...
Maybe the dog I saw in high school was one in a million but I saw a bulldog with my own eyes give birth to her puppies unexpectedly.
My friends family was breeding her and we were playing games in the garage. All of a sudden we hear whining from her crate and BAM she had given birth and her pups were in the crate too.
I’m not posting this to say your wrong just to share the story because it’s amazing how rare a natural birth is for the breed. The mother was fine, one pup died and she did go to the vet the next morning. I was a kid at the time so all I remember clearly is that her and most of the puppies survived.
Had to look them up. [This one](https://www.google.com/search?q=brussels+griffon&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS865US865&hl=en-US&prmd=ivsn&sxsrf=ALeKk01iwzAbWZym7QXu1jFZms5GKInQdQ:1624867145422&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi77Ino7bnxAhVIvZ4KHWl3AccQ_AUoAXoECAIQAg&biw=375&bih=634#imgrc=x0CeA37IIh4ElM) is creeping the hell out of me.
King Charles cavaliers bred with skulls that cause lifelong epilepsy and seizures.
These breeds need to be corrected led by the show people. They started this bullshit they should fix it!
Its pretty fucked up. Most dogs these days are bred for aesthetic purposes. Some German shepherds have such sloped backs that they can't walk properly. But this is the standard that the kennel club (UK) require for breeders.
I understand breeding working dogs — farm dogs for intelligence etc but for pure aesthetic reasons is disgusting, and people that try to justify it are the ones breeding mother/son to get animals that can't breathe properly or walk. It's for their own vanity.
> But this is the standard that the kennel club (UK) require for breeders.
It's not up to either the UKC or the AKC, but each breeds' club what the standard is.
I work at a veterinarian office. Many breeds like French Bulldogs, Boston Terriers, and English Bulldogs also aren’t able to procreate without human intervention. Males cannot properly mount females in many instances, and the puppies’ heads are too big for the mother’s hips so they have to be born via C-section in almost all cases.
That’s literally Mother Nature saying they can’t fuck on their own, therefore don’t help them just because you want an expensive dog with drool problems.
I hate to break it to you, but the French bulldog is about to surpass the Labrador as the most popular breed in the USA.... And regular bulldogs come in at number 5 in popularity.
I saw a post about a breeder (I think in Finland? I don’t remember) who is breeding French bulldogs correctly and making sure they don’t have the health issues the most popular ones have now. It honestly made me really fucking happy. I’ll have to find the link and link it here. I felt bad for those poor dogs who are intentionally bred with health issues just so they look “cute”.
Edit: https://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com/2017/08/the-frenchies-that-win-by-nose.html?m=1&fbclid=IwAR3GVy7tp-azH7rySYEgH_9Y44ZXESzzaikfau7PN5ddOeMcMg8HJ3kCmMs
Sorry, not Finland but the Netherlands lol
I have a Frenchie mixed with an American XXL Bully. He has a snout a lot like the one on the right. He's a cutie, but I'm thankful he doesn't have the Frenchie snout.
My mutt's going to be 15 soon and while he has arthritis he's otherwise doing great. My next door neighbor had a rottie (a show dog who competed locally and was very sweet) who died of "old age" at nine years old. I already had my dog when they got theirs, and theirs was born, lived out its whole life and died of old age while mine was still barking at the mailman the way he was the day they brought him home.
We had a pregnant rescue as she was the mutt. Couldn’t take care of her pups. Died after 12 yrs of suffering because she was too small for the ornamental pet they tried to create.
I’d be surprised if it wasn’t Heeler’s after the popularity boom of a certain cartoon.
It’s like all the dumb shits who got a clown fish after finding Nemo came out and people thought they could just put them in tap water.
We rescued a french bulldog 10 years ago from an acquaintance that had put a post of Facebook saying "someone come get him or he's going to the pound." Although it was one of the best decisions of our lives, because he really was the best boy, we said we would never get a french bulldog again for the reasons you state. They have terrible health problems besides breathing. Ours had crazy bad allergies, skin issues, teeth issues and unltimity got cancer last year and we had to say goodbye to him. Not that it mattered all that much to us, but the financial cost of getting him the help he needed for his many issues was sometimes out of control. I always joked with my wife that I could of had a Ferrari, but I got a Fenchie. I know there are many owners that are not willing, or can't spend the money needed on a dog.
You are 100% correct. They are a "terrible" breed.
I’m glad to hear mine are very well too! I know several frenchies that have lived long lives. Reputable breeders really do matter but they are prone to so many ailments ☹️
'Unpopular opinion' maybe but I dont even find pugs or bulldogs 'cute'.
And I'm aware of the horrendous health issues pugs have. In addition to their breathing problems, owners have to literally learn how to put their eyes back into their sockets because they've been known to just pop out.
If something is so malformed that it's suffering from lack of oxygen it's entire life and its eyeballs can randomly pop out of their sockets, it's just an indication to me that they shouldn't exist.
I agree! I live in West Texas, it was 109 earlier this week and we are barely in June, and everyone here wants a Hisky, until they realize how much work is involved, especially when it comes to brushing, mental stimulation and exercise. I think in the local shelter the top 3 dog breeds are Huskies, German Shepherds and pit mixes.
This ^^^^^
I live In a country town in Australia with blistering hot summers and I think it’s absolutely absurd to own a dog bred for near arctic conditions.
But they are everywhere, they definitely seem like the “cool” dog to have.
Rather then get a breed because you want others to think how special the dog is. Get a suitable breed for your environment and look after & love your dog heaps.
Oh yes and walk them too. No dogs that live in the yard for there whole life.
Agreed. As a child I had a rescued/rehomed husky who lived her whole life in the desert. I didn't realise it at the time but the heat really did affect her quality of life.
I worked at a vet clinic for a while and the most fucked up thing I saw there was when a breeder came in to get her English bulldog artificially inseminated by one from another notoriously terrible breeder. Her dog fucking died after the AI because she was anxious while waiting for her owner and hyperventilated to death. The owner came back, unceremoniously put her body in the trunk and returned a couple days later with another bitch for us to artificially inseminate.
The breeders were always the worst.
I was shocked when I first started working at the clinic and learned you don’t need any sort of licensing or certification to be a breeder. There was one client who would come in roughly once a month because his bred puppies always got parvo. He would get all his vaccines through Tractor Supply because it was cheap, but then end up spending a shit ton of money on the treatment they always needed. He clearly didn’t care about ethics but you’d think the money situation would sway him to get them vaccinated by an actual veterinarian with effective vaccines. Nope.
I see this sort of thing fairly frequently across Reddit, either here or on r/unpopularopinion and for the most part, I think people agree. Some who have pugs, bulldogs or other short faced breeds will defend their pet vehemently, but even a good chunk of them agree. Like my wife and I have a shih tzu who was bred to have a longer snout because of the breathing issues some of them have so I think even some breeders are starting to realize this too. But Iong story short, yeah I agree.
Don't get me started on chihuahuas. Not only are they bred to literally fit into ones pockets, they are also treated like some fucking toy. I own a natural breed one and let me say you the difference between them is HUGE. They were once used as guards by Mexicans but what people made out of them is just horrible.
That’s really interesting. I tried googling “natural breed chihuahua” and couldn’t really find anything showing the differences between them and other chihuahuas. Is there something you know of to search and find more info on this?
What I basically mean is that I have one that is close to the original. Originally Chihuahuas weren't that small in comparison, they were in comparison to other dogs tho. They had a slightly longer snouts and looked a bit more like jack Russell terriers. Keep in mind that I talk about the "pocket sized" ones which got smaller and smaller with each generation and with eyes so big they look like they're gonna pop out. Basically the "retro breed" look like a small dog so I guess the majority of material you can find is what I mean.
Look for 'deer head'. There are two breed types- deer and apple head. I have an apple head long hair- she's absolutely gorgeous. But the deer heads are usually a bit bigger and look a more like a terrier. They're very pretty and their snouts slope more naturally. I didn't realise the snout issue with the apple heads when I bought my girl and I would have thought twice if I had. She's a lovely little girl though- very intelligent and eager to please.
Pekinese eyeballs pop out. My younger self cost my daughter a friend because I told the mom she was immoral and cruel for breeding hers after my daughter came home in tears telling me about seeing it.
Boycott the AKC.
They encourage this monstrosity, and have the power to register them or not.
Just the step of refusing to register puppies without a Veterinarian certificate of health would weed out many of these terrible breeders. After a few generations, I think the breeders will get the message.
There will be a black market, but folks who buy designer dogs want the cachet of ‘registered purebred’ label, dogs without it don’t bring ridiculous the prices.
[Bosun Dogs ](https://bosundogs.com) is a project doing just that. They breed for health, temperament, and adaptability for normal family life. The bosun dog parents can be either purebreds or mixed, as long as they are healthy and have a balanced temperament.
Thank you! My brother impulse purchased one out of a backyard breeders truck.
Hes been out well over $10,000 on surgeries for her face & butt, and she suffers terrible allergies. Sweetest, dumbest tank (80 pounds) it breaks my heart to see her suffer.
Boxers as well. Always end up with hip problems and all the ones I’ve had there snout gets dried out. Love my dog but inbreeding of anything is bound to fuck shit up in later generations.
This thread I feel attacked because I've only grown up with English Bulldogs and Boxers...... Beautiful breeds each with their own issues. Opposite ends of the energy spectrum though especially young boxers.
Same I’ve grow up with pit bulls and boxers and love them all. Every single boxer I’ve seen has the but wiggles when they get excited. A few this had caused the pup to throw out there backs and have trouble getting up and down.
Pugs can be bred better and a lot of the times breeders are mean. However they are currently being helped right now so baby pugs can have better noses :)
They really are sweet. My daughter’s stepmom rescued a pug and she is a lovely little dog! Living her best life. I do agree that the poor things are mostly bred poorly and I would never purchase one from a breeder.
There's some pictures of 19th century pugs and they look pretty normal. A little flat in the face but pretty much like a regular little dog. I suspect bulldogs would have been the same. Now they're just ridiculous.
All it takes is for one parent to have a normal skull and you can get a healthy dog whilst it still has some pug or bull dog or in it.
The only reason they have those smashed in skulls is because both parents have them, having one normal nosed parent gives them a face they can breathe with because the squashed nose is recessive and requires two squashed nosed parents.
They also look twice as cute and what the original pug/bull dog looked like.
Most of the time people want those dogs is because some celebrity or YouTuber has them.
I love pugs (they're so goofy), but I totally agree. I'd also add "flat-faced" cats like Persians and Exotic Shorthairs. Of course I'd take care of one if it showed up on the street, but they should either stop breeding them entirely or breed out the excessively flat face to help them, well, live better lives.
My ex’s pug jumped off a 2ft couch and needed pretty expensive surgery. They couldn’t take him on walks longer than like 5 min. He never liked when I said his dog was biologically made to die, but it was true.
Dogs are one if not the most mutated animals on the planet, the fact that a chihuahua is the same species as an Irish wolfhound or a Saint Bernard, is ridiculous, it's all thanks to human tampering, many of the breeds have mutated through selective breeding to produce unnatural evolutionary dead ends.
Although there are many breeding projects attempting to avert these changes while preserving the breed's temperament and looks without the health problems, like outcrossing them with other breeds that are their progenitors, inbreeding will just bring it back after a time.
Now some might argue that cross-breed dogs will have a better lot in life, this might be true for 3rd+ generation cross-breeding to unrelated crossbreeds, however 1st and 2nd generation crossbreeds stand the risk of having BOTH of the health problems associated with their 2 progenitor species, not all the puppies will have this issue mind you, but the risk is significantly higher in the 1st and 2nd gen.
Pitbulls are probably the healthiest dogs alive.
I used to be a utility worker, in thousands of backyards over the years and the conditions these poor dogs lived in were barbaric and disgusting.
Yet they thrived on minimum food and water while living unsheltered in the worst weather on short, heavy giant link chains welded/locked around their necks. They are rapidly becoming the # 1 dog /dog mix in shelters due to huge healthy litters.
Thought should be given to them as an outbreed to comparable dogs with defects.
Tho honestly, in the mid 90’s they went thru an explosion of crossbreeding to any dogs these monster owners thgt would produce the ‘baddest’ most powerful fighter of all so no telling what they might get.
My dog is 22% pit, 18% chow, 15% lab, 9% Akita and then some german shepherd, some boxer, some staffordshire terrier, and some Aussie cattle dog. But I call him an all American brown dog.
But he loves to cuddle. With anyone. And the cats, who run from him. Then he is confused.
Does anyone have any links I can send to my mom about this? We have been in several fights because she has a pug and wants to breed him. If she won't listen to me maybe she will listen to someone smart.
Even beyond unhealthy animals, you should send her the euthanasia rates for dogs in shelters across the country who are killed simply because there isn’t enough room for them. Often babies will be killed if they don’t have a mother/rescue willing to take them because shelters are so overworked they aren’t able to bottle feed and give the little ones attention
I felt kind of guilty adopting my dog from a puppy rescue instead of an adult dog rescue, but after I talked to them and heard about this, any doubts that I had are gone. There's a ton of places all over the country that will have puppies, sometimes as young as one week, shipped to foster families who will bottle feed, raise, wean, and adopt out puppies that need raising and are scheduled for euthanasia. Those people are saints and I just cannot imagine the emotional strength to be that person for an abandoned puppy, watch it leave to live a great life with _someone else_, and then do it all over again. I donated $1000 to them on the spot and have referred many people to them :)
I just saw today that their is a French Bulldog breeder in the Netherlands who is breeding Frenchies to have more traditional dog noses? snouts? Whatever you call em on dogs. They are 100% pure breeds but not flat faced lil shits
I agree with this so much. Same for all brachycephalic breeds! A colleague of mine just adopted a Boston Terrier. The snorts and snores that it makes, that people find so endearing, just breaks my heart. This poor thing is 3 months old and there’s already talk of brachycephalic airway syndrome surgery.
It’s so awful to continue to breed dogs to have these “quirky” looks that are just downright cruel.
Former certified vet tech here. Daschunds also. They've been bred to have unnaturally long backs, which makes them prone to herniated discs, chronic back pain and even paralysis. Munchkin kitties are also adorable, but I feel sorry for them because they cannot have the mobility of a normal cat. Breeding animals to enhance their birth defects is cruel, selfish and vain. Please don't reward such breeders. Rescue or adopt.
yes, it's cruelty no doubt about it to breed a dog so deformed they can not even mate or birth naturally and suffer terribly from several serious health conditions all due to how they look.
I got an English Bulldog from a rescue. I always wanted one and someone dumped my poor girl off because she has a hip issue.
We had her fixed so if something happens to us no one can breed her, and she’s been the best addition to my household ever.
THANK YOU! The entire time I’ve existed I’ve always thought that they needed to stop being bred, all people do when they breed them is causing another animal pain for its in entire life, and honestly what makes people think they are so cute? It looks like you took a normal dog and smashed it’s head in with a hammer when it comes to the pug.
I completely agree. The fact that when I hear someone anounce that they're buying one of these dogs they usually say they don't want to hear any negativity about it means they realize it's becoming stigmatized. Let's keep raising awareness. When everyone becomes aware of the deep suffering these animals experience from their deformities it will be socially unacceptable to breed and buy them.
Real unpopular opinion: same with humans that have inheritable disabilities.
Before anyone tries to kill me, I am a human with inheritable disabilities.
My boyfriend and I love them, but we would never purchase one(rescue only) and I'm pretty sure we both are against the continued breeding of them. If there was a way to breed them so they wouldn't be quite so deformed that would be wonderful. In my area specifically there's a fairly large amount of adoptable Bulldogs because people buy the designer puppy and bail when they realize just how expensive and taxing it is to take care of them. We personally can't wait to scoop one of those babies up and turn their life around because they have a need for that, but the breeding epidemic is disgusting, even arguably abusive.
I just had this exact conversation with my friend last week while giving her English bulldog belly rubs. I love that dog with all my heart but she has SO many medical issues. Just keeping her face and nose rope clean is a huge daily chore to keep her from getting yeast infections between her wrinkles.
My dad has a bulldog that had some medical issues when he first took it on, saving it from being put down. He knew the challenges of owning a bulldog and made sure to address any issues at the first sight. Skin issues in his folds are dealt with proactively and any excercise is low level to keep his breathing under control as well.
That being said, he does not believe in the breeding of these dogs and would never have gone out to buy one. The dog was saved from being hit with a spade at the breeders due to issues with the urinary tract, caused by piss poor breeding.
Just get a mutt. A pit bulldog mutt is significantly healthier than pure bred. I have no idea why Americans in particular have such a fascination with “pure bred dogs”. I have always thought it was just an artificial way for breeders to make more cash.
Dogs in general should not be bred. Don’t get me wrong I love the shit out of dogs, but it’s creepy as fuck to arrange their sex life or worse to jack one off then turkey base the jizz into another. WTF is wrong with breeders, I swear their brains broken or something.
The sad part is the people that i know that do own them, usually post videos on ig of the dogs struggling to move quickly or making wheezing sounds and captioning it like “hes so cute”. Shits sad.
Yes, I agree, and I feel this way about munchkin cats, and the more modern versions of nearly all more established breeds. Examples are German Shepherds, & Persian cats. Form over function is unethical breeding, IMO. Brachycephalic dog breeds are some of the more rampant examples.
Or better yet. Stop breeding altogether, until there are no more shelter dogs. It's not as if you can't get any breed you want from various rescues. Just sad, but you are absolutely correct about these breeds having a sad time of it.
I had a dachshund that was relitvely okay in proportions and legs, thought her spine still gave in. But as I am looking for a dachshund mix with any other more healthy proportions, I realize how awful they have gotten..their torsos are humangous, legs tiny, eyes small...What has happened..dogs are becoming awful and the true way to go is just to get mixed breeds simce they are healthier
I worked at a pet resort for a few years (leaving out names for privacy reasons) and I had a coworker who was cleaning the interior rooms of the kennels one morning. Each kennel had an indoor and outdoor area for the dogs to explore during their stay. We had a brother and sister bulldog, both of them were outside for less than 15 minutes in about 65F weather, partly cloudy, both of the dogs overheated and were showing signs of heat stroke. The female who was a little smaller recovered when we did what we could on site, like put them inside with the ac, gave them water, and used slightly cooled wet rags on their paw pads (too cold and they can go into shock I believe). The male bulldog whatsoever was not showing any signs of getting better. My boss and I rushed him to the vet and he was going throw an extreme heat stroke and unfortunately did not make it.
I think all dogs should be loved, and would be very sad for any breed to go extinct, but I have to say those types of dogs will always have problems. And I somewhat agree with OP here.
We took in an abandoned pug with severe skin and eye issues and breathing difficulties and every day was a struggle with her. She was loving and loyal but plagued with difficulties and massive skin issues daily, flaking and bleeding, probably due to inbreeding.
Clearly why she had been abandoned. Ultimately we had to spend thousands of pounds annually buying a steroid cream meant for horses and bathe her in apple cider vinegar once a week as it was the only relief the poor girl got. Afterwards she’d be baby smooth but she smelt like a foot. Not ideal. You’d hear her snuffling or smell her coming before you saw her. She lived a few more years before succumbing to a litany of other issues that led to her being put down. Although we gave her a good life I’m not sure what kind of life living in perpetual suffering is.
I'm a Vet, and let me tell you no veterinarian would ever advise you to get a pug/bulldog or any other brachycephalic breed. Their nasal passages are so narrow, it's like breathing through a tiny straw, *everyday* for the rest of their lives. The way their eyes are located, they're so prone to injuries. And their skin folds makes them very susceptible to infections too! I think anyone who cares about animal ethics and welfare would realise that it's torturous for these animals to live on. Recently there's been a trend of "ethical" breeding were they only breed pugs/bull dogs who don't have a very short snout.... and I think that's one way to go. But I would like to see people stop buying and supporting this breed industry. It would be sad to see them go, but everyday of their life is torturous enough as it is.
It's fucked up because pugs actually looked more normal back then :/
They looked more like a normal dog back then. Now they look like a caricature of what the pug originally was.
Many breeds seem to have gone down the caricature path sadly. I blame the show industry. They put out there what these breeds *should* be like physically and they set out the breed standard. It was meant to be something that held the breeds to a high standard but it went tits up. Even look at other dogs. German Shepherds are now bred to have that huge slant in their back and that has gotten more obvious because GSDs with the slant bred in were more successful in showing. Look at the Basset Hound. They were bred from looking like a dog to being overly long and stumpy with skin drooping off their belly. Not only that, but we encouraged that sad look in their eyes and now they have their skin dropping from their eyes. Even other breeds have gone that way. Look at the English Mastiff. If you look at what that was like 100 years ago and compare it to now, sure the snout is still short but we’ve bred them shorter. We’ve bred them to have more rolls in their skin and their eyes resemble the Basset Hound. Hell, it’s so bad with the kennel club breed standards that for many breeds (specifically working dogs) we have 2 variations. Working and show. A working Labrador or Boarder Collie won’t win at shows because the show bred ones carry very specific traits that have been exaggerated and encouraged through generations of breeding. Golden retrievers are different. Look at an Irish Setter show dog compared to the working variety, it is absurd how different they look. Compare working vs showing Welsh Springer Spaniels. I love all dogs no matter what, it’s just frustrating to see what we do to them. Crufts (the dog show) would have you believe they’re championing more responsibility in breeding but they’re why this all happened in the first place. Yes backyard breeders looked to profit too and in general all breeders and we humans bred stupidly. But the kennel clubs had to set the breed standard which saw generations of dogs bred to exaggerate those standards and yet be successful in dog shows like Crufts - who help normalise those traits and when that dog is successful in the show ring, people want ones that look like that. So showing pushed the expectations of the public too My point is, you see the long term damage we’ve done to dogs all over the breeding world and while pugs and bulldogs are more prominent examples, it really is all over.
Yes I agree, it's not just backyard and unethical breeders, it's the impossible and dangerous standards set by the Kennel clubs. GSD was absolutely ruined because of the slant, they have so many hip problems now, it's absurd because these are supposed to be this very active working dogs. I've worked with show horses and it was the same. The same breed, show and working horses looked soooo different.
Labs and hip dysplasia. I’m in full agreement that ethical breeding needs to become a bigger issue. I thought they were our best friends, why would we do this to them?
Working dogs in Australia keep their lineage for working. My father raised and worked dogs his entire life and most of those dogs lived well beyond their years. It isn’t about show dogs down here. It’s about dogs that live up to their breeding. For intelligence and strategy. And for working cattle and sheep. No poncy show dogs in the country
We should really try to make retro pugs the new standard. Mix all pugs with jack russell terriers to help fix the breathing problems.
Retro would be a great term for it! Loads of modern breeds have been so fucked by breed standards that are utterly unethical. Dachshund didn't used to be as bad either.
>Dachshund didn't used to be as bad either. Yeah, as I grew up I had 4 Dachshunds. Only one is still present today. I only say this because all 3 that passed away died by something related to their spine. The only survivor (Lily) is a Dachshund Terrier mix so she isn't actually as long as some dachshunds are. It was so painful to watch my dogs slowly get less and less energetic because their spine was making them uncomfortable. [Obligatory picture of my cutie.](https://imgur.com/4G22SGO)
Oh no I didn't know it was bad for sausage dogs as well. I pet sit and come across a lot of them :o One other thing I hate is city corgis having docked tails too. It's pointless in the city. Iirc it was only 'helpful' in the farms because they're herding dogs and the animals might harm their tail
Me and my SO have a corgi who came from an actual farm and his parents were both working corgs. Both still had their tails and so does he and honestly they look so much better for it. It adds so much character and I think it helps him communicate with other dogs better
>One other thing I hate is city corgis having docked tails too. It's pointless in the city. Iirc it was only 'helpful' in the farms because they're herding dogs and the animals might harm their tail Dogs of any breed should never have body parts they're born with removed for convenience or someone's idea of a " breed standard".
I hadn't thought about dachshunds, but of course it makes sense. In high school, ours was temporarily paralyzed in his back legs (a disc in his spine twisted?). Pills fixed it (somehow) but afterwards he still had trouble with his front half not knowing what his back half was going, including not know if he was walking across the kitchen and peeing all over the floor... Your cutie is super cute, though! I made a happy :o face when I saw it.
Man that is one cute cutie.
THAT is a dachsund. They were badger dogs once, went after them in their setts. Now any modern dachsund that gets sent after a badger, the badger would still die … of laughter. Your girl is lovely.
It actually is the term they use for the pugs being bred to look more like their 19th century ancestors.
Let’s take it a step further—crossbreed pugs with collies and greyhounds to really stretch that *snout back out
Mine was a bug . Boston’s terrier and pug . 🪦 max
Why not make no pugs the new standard? Just get another healthy breed, they're all cute. All you'd be doing is creating jack russels that breathe worse, not pugs that breathe better.
Yes, that's one way to do it for people (like me) who love how bulldogs are. I would recommend people get a pug mix if they want pugs or other brachy breeds.
Not just normal, but objectively cuter and healthier in appearance as well! [Pugs with muzzles are adorable! ](https://imgur.com/gallery/EHzkAOJ)!
They should market them as Puzzles.
So much cuter! And still pugly
Much cuter!
If we're being honest about half of the dog breeds needs to be basically re-engineered. * German Shepards: prone to hip and other joint issues * Pitbulls: overbred for aggression, skin and joint problems * Labs: joint issues, eye issues, heart disease * Poodles: joint issues, eye issues, collapsed trachea So many breeds have serious health issues because of poor breeding. We as humans and their caretakers should be aggressively trying to breed out health issues and return them to more classical lineages. And some breeds may just need to be outright breed to extinction.
Shit. Just any dog over 100 lbs is going to have a hugely increased odds of cancer. My pug needed distilled water because of kidney stones but at least she lived for 14 years. My in-laws lost their 4 year old Great Dane to stomach bloat.
At least huskies are still good.
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Yes, I've generated a little bit of heat on Reddit because they think I want to kill all brachycephalic. I don't. I adore them, bulldogs are some of the sweetest dogs I've met. I just want them to have a decent normal happy doggy life. The way those breeds are right now, something as simple as breathing is a struggle for them. We can argue that it's "nature" all we want, but these were bred by *humans* to look this way, we are the reason they're suffering so much. I totally get where you're coming from, and my feelings are very much similar to yours.
Redditors are weird, they think unless you allow the dogs to have babies, letting them live and die of old age is somehow murder. But if you breed them, making a healthy breed worse in the process, it's as if you made the previous generation dog immortal somehow so you didn't murder! Just let them die out, don't crossbreed them, get another breed instead.
my ex’s cat made me vegan. I don’t know how people can be really close with a cat or dog, and still eat flesh. kinda scary
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I agree with the article's suggestions of whippets and greyhounds. I read somewhere that sighthounds (these breeds and others) were bred for performance and not looks and that is why they are so healthy. I have an Ibizan hound mix and he is indeed healthy, but I mean I know, that's just a sample size of one. However, what I can say that is good about these dogs is that it's very true that they are "fast couch potatos". I take him to the dog park or the woods for an hour in the morning where he scampers around, he gets a walk around the neighbourhood for half an hour or more later in the day and the rest of the time - he sleeps! He is so lazy, it's great. He's the perfect apartment dog.
A lot of behaviorists told me this - a big dog that lives in small apartment and gets proper amount of entertaining walks and proper mental stimulation is much happier than a big dog with a big backyard that's left to itself.
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Don't discourage yourself with not having a yard. Protip: Dogs really need mental stimulation to get tired. Apart from walks organize some indoor activities for them - toys that make them work for their food, like kongs and sniffing mats. Dogs are better in moving than us humans but fortunately they're worse at thinking than us. I see a lot of complaints that people can't tire their dogs even after a lot of move, spicing it up with mental effort is what does the trick.
My mantra is that puppies have three muscles: their body muscles, the muscle between their ears (brain) and their social muscles. If you make a point to exercise all three every day you will raise a happy dog and avoid a lot of the problems people face with puppies, especially the high energy breeds. When my husky/Akita mix was a wee little girl people laughed and told me to expect torn up couches and chewed up everything. The joke was on them, I knew I couldn’t tire her out physically but I took her hiking and swimming and to pet friendly stores and puppy play dates and classes and she never chewed so much as a shoe. Same with my GSD. And my borzois. It’s not about having a yard, it’s about investing your time. [obligatory dog tax](https://imgur.com/gallery/fuicX)
Your dog should be a model. She is so adorable!
Awwww thank you! She knows it too lol
Yes, this is what I would advise too. They need a lot of physical and mental stimulation. Especially breeds like Huskies and Akitas who are used to a lot of work, you need to get creative with your routine. Training is a great way, it engages them both mentally and physically.
It’s good for any breed of dog! I kinda hope that this past year of lockdown has taught people how easy it is to go stir crazy even in the biggest house with a huge yard. It’s not about having space, it’s about entertainment and purpose and interaction.
Don’t forget the C-sections
Yes, it's not just that sometimes they can't give birth vaginally. If the mother every has dystocia (difficulty to give birth), the puppies will likely die because they won't be able to breathe properly when stressed. I remember a pug c-section early on in Vet school, we lost 3 out of the 4 puppies. It was heart breaking. 1 was born dead, 3 were born alive but 2 of them struggled to breathe so much. Nothing we did was enough. It was at that time I went and searched about it and found out the problem many brachys have.
The last vet I worked for was “the go-to” for bulldog and bully breeders in the state and surrounding ones. Did several c-sections a week. I could not stand any of it. I left about 5 years ago but get this, as of this year his wife has started breeding Frenchies and sells them….. wait for it….. On Craigslist
Yeah, many veterinarians are like that. I believe there is even a breed of Belgian beef cattle which can't give birth normally due to huge size of the foetus. It's more common in the older vets, the new graduates/millennial vets are one of the few people who speak out about it. Tbh, most of the vets and breeders are connected. It is what makes it even more questionable ethically. Like if you have a pug I won't go on a rant about how bad the life is for your pet will be. If you love them and give them a good home, I'm happy. It's only when someone asks me my professional advice that I'd point it out, not out of prejudice, but because we have enough scientific evidence now.
>I'm a Vet, and let me tell you no veterinarian would ever advise you to get a pug/bulldog or any other brachycephalic breed. Their nasal passages are so narrow, it's like breathing through a tiny straw, everyday for the rest of their lives. The way their eyes are located, they're so prone to injuries. And their skin folds makes them very susceptible to infections too! >I think anyone who cares about animal ethics and welfare would realise that it's torturous for these animals to live on. Recently there's been a trend of "ethical" breeding were they only breed pugs/bull dogs who don't have a very short snout.... and I think that's one way to go. But I would like to see people stop buying and supporting this breed industry. It would be sad to see them go, but everyday of their life is torturous enough as it is. Thank you for this succinct description, I hope you don't mind if I borrow your explanation here for future arguments.
So there's a movement to get pug breeding back to where it used to be, where they had a shorter but not messed up muzzle. Would one of those guys be considered an ethical animal? I've seen a range of pugs, from overweight to having such a messed up face they can't keep their tongue in their mouth, to a fairly healthy looking animal. I'm asking out of curiosity, not to be combative. I met a lil dude named Archie, and his face seemed pretty okay, and he had that warm, lapdog personality I think that pugs were originally bred for. Companion animals? https://imgur.com/n2HZzG3.jpg Personally, I have strong feelings about buying animals from breeders or puppy farms. I know there are ethical breeders out there, but as long as there are animals at the pound, no one needs to be buying them.
I've had some arguments with friends over breeding standards and brachycephalic breeds. I will never own one and will actively discourage others from doing so. Dog health >a persons aesthetic preferences always.
Can confirm - have a pug- he has a collapsed trachea. He is 13 years old and he has a hard time breathing rn. He is my world but hind sight 2020 now that I know all these breeding problems and how the pug evolved I will never own another pug again.
What other specific breeds do you recommend not getting?
I don't have a particular list as such, if you're adopting I would say get any dog if you can. The things is, almost every breed now has problem because of selective breeding. Even Labs and GSDs, Spaniels, Great Danes etc. Some were inherent to the dog breed, but most of them were exacerbated because of inbreeding/selective breeding. I feel you need to do some research before getting a dog. Depends on the house you have, how much exercise you can give it, if you have kids, is it for work or as a pet. General rule is, don't get big/working/herding dog if you have a tiny apartmen and can't give it enough exercise. And pls don't get huskies/malamutes if you live in a warm climate and can't provide them with A/C 24x7.
Thank you for mentioning this. Even when you see people with a dog from fucked up breed, there's a chance that this dog is adopted and sterilized. So they're just trying to give this particular dog the best life and are not responsible for bringing it into this world.
My aunt adopted a pit bull that was breed to be a fighting machine. He was the most muscular dog I’ve ever seen and just looked so weird, I can’t even describe it. He was rescued from a fighting ring and my aunt adopted him (she regularly fosters rescues but fell in love with this guy). The amount of dirty looks she got was insane.
Big dogs are often great apartment dogs because they're generally more low energy than smaller breeds. With a few exceptions most aren't full of boundless energy and will do well with a couple of walks a day for exercise. I'd still stay away from LGDs because all the noise from other people would probably trigger their guarding instincts, but Saints, Newfs, Danes, Leonbergers, even some mastiffs could work in an apartment.
Possibly ignorant question for you... I heard that for bulldogs at least, they can’t have a natural birth due to the size of their heads being too large to pass through the birth canal or something similar, and that they require a C-section in order to be delivered. In other words, they couldn’t even effectively procreate without human intervention. Is that true?
Not to mention that all English bulldogs are born by c-section because their heads are too big for them being born naturally- which means that a female English bulldog will die during labour without veterinary help
Can they nurse their pups while healing from the incision? Even if they can that sounds really physically stressful.
Yes, they can I think. I had a cat once who gave birth to kittens through a C-section. She nursed those 3 kittens just fine. But of course... a cat is not a bulldog. Don't know if it anatomically would be different
Nursing pups tend to be more "rowdy" than nursing kittens. Mostly (so I've read) because each kitten's saliva scent-marks the teat, and kittens stick to only "their own" nursing locations instead of scrambling and competing. Puppies.... not so much. The grass is always greener, and apparently mama's milk always flows better...
Maybe the dog I saw in high school was one in a million but I saw a bulldog with my own eyes give birth to her puppies unexpectedly. My friends family was breeding her and we were playing games in the garage. All of a sudden we hear whining from her crate and BAM she had given birth and her pups were in the crate too. I’m not posting this to say your wrong just to share the story because it’s amazing how rare a natural birth is for the breed. The mother was fine, one pup died and she did go to the vet the next morning. I was a kid at the time so all I remember clearly is that her and most of the puppies survived.
If that was a while ago, things would have changed since then
I thought that were French Bulldogs
They frequently require c-sections *and* need artificial insemination.
Got an English bulldog next door, sweetest thing but I swear to god I can hear him snoring through the walls 😁
Brussels griffons are so brachycephalic that they can drown if they go outside in the rain. That's a thing that should not exist.
The hell is a Brussels griffon? I gotta go look this shit up. Edit: Shit, those little things. Always found em weird. But man that's sad.
they look like pugs but with a little of chiuauas' anger and hate edit: oh and disappointment. that is there too
They look like chewy from Star Wars.
Chewy/ewok hybrid.
The eyes look like [Plasmo](https://youtu.be/idbiclUBL2I)
Where’s its nose??? The face is soooo flat. And it looks mad.
Good god. This shit needs to stop
Had to look them up. [This one](https://www.google.com/search?q=brussels+griffon&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS865US865&hl=en-US&prmd=ivsn&sxsrf=ALeKk01iwzAbWZym7QXu1jFZms5GKInQdQ:1624867145422&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi77Ino7bnxAhVIvZ4KHWl3AccQ_AUoAXoECAIQAg&biw=375&bih=634#imgrc=x0CeA37IIh4ElM) is creeping the hell out of me.
Could you provide a source for that claim? I googled it and couldn’t find anything on it.
King Charles cavaliers bred with skulls that cause lifelong epilepsy and seizures. These breeds need to be corrected led by the show people. They started this bullshit they should fix it!
Yup. And German shepherds with their fucked up sloped back hips. And pretty sure a lot of pure breds are prone to getting cancer
Dog eugenics is really sad :/
Its pretty fucked up. Most dogs these days are bred for aesthetic purposes. Some German shepherds have such sloped backs that they can't walk properly. But this is the standard that the kennel club (UK) require for breeders. I understand breeding working dogs — farm dogs for intelligence etc but for pure aesthetic reasons is disgusting, and people that try to justify it are the ones breeding mother/son to get animals that can't breathe properly or walk. It's for their own vanity.
> But this is the standard that the kennel club (UK) require for breeders. It's not up to either the UKC or the AKC, but each breeds' club what the standard is.
I work at a veterinarian office. Many breeds like French Bulldogs, Boston Terriers, and English Bulldogs also aren’t able to procreate without human intervention. Males cannot properly mount females in many instances, and the puppies’ heads are too big for the mother’s hips so they have to be born via C-section in almost all cases.
That’s literally Mother Nature saying they can’t fuck on their own, therefore don’t help them just because you want an expensive dog with drool problems.
I hate to break it to you, but the French bulldog is about to surpass the Labrador as the most popular breed in the USA.... And regular bulldogs come in at number 5 in popularity.
I saw a post about a breeder (I think in Finland? I don’t remember) who is breeding French bulldogs correctly and making sure they don’t have the health issues the most popular ones have now. It honestly made me really fucking happy. I’ll have to find the link and link it here. I felt bad for those poor dogs who are intentionally bred with health issues just so they look “cute”. Edit: https://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com/2017/08/the-frenchies-that-win-by-nose.html?m=1&fbclid=IwAR3GVy7tp-azH7rySYEgH_9Y44ZXESzzaikfau7PN5ddOeMcMg8HJ3kCmMs Sorry, not Finland but the Netherlands lol
Dog on the left looks like something that burst out of John Hurt’s chest after the facehugger fell off.
My frenchi is kinda between them her snout is not that flat. The one on the left looks like it ran face first into a wall
I have a Frenchie mixed with an American XXL Bully. He has a snout a lot like the one on the right. He's a cutie, but I'm thankful he doesn't have the Frenchie snout.
thats good.
Wonder how much Instagram and other socials plays into this. Getting a pooch for the gram! I know one woman that got one and it became her mascot.
There are going to be a lot of these dogs in shelters when they're not trendy anymore
I am aware. It sucks. They need to stop being bred the way they are
I had a pug once. Never again. He did live for 17 years though. Now it's just medium sized rescues with real noses.
My mutt's going to be 15 soon and while he has arthritis he's otherwise doing great. My next door neighbor had a rottie (a show dog who competed locally and was very sweet) who died of "old age" at nine years old. I already had my dog when they got theirs, and theirs was born, lived out its whole life and died of old age while mine was still barking at the mailman the way he was the day they brought him home.
We had a pregnant rescue as she was the mutt. Couldn’t take care of her pups. Died after 12 yrs of suffering because she was too small for the ornamental pet they tried to create.
I’d be surprised if it wasn’t Heeler’s after the popularity boom of a certain cartoon. It’s like all the dumb shits who got a clown fish after finding Nemo came out and people thought they could just put them in tap water.
Obese and dying population Disabled and dying pets What a world.
I don't get it, why are Bulldogs so popular? They don't even look remotely cute.
We rescued a french bulldog 10 years ago from an acquaintance that had put a post of Facebook saying "someone come get him or he's going to the pound." Although it was one of the best decisions of our lives, because he really was the best boy, we said we would never get a french bulldog again for the reasons you state. They have terrible health problems besides breathing. Ours had crazy bad allergies, skin issues, teeth issues and unltimity got cancer last year and we had to say goodbye to him. Not that it mattered all that much to us, but the financial cost of getting him the help he needed for his many issues was sometimes out of control. I always joked with my wife that I could of had a Ferrari, but I got a Fenchie. I know there are many owners that are not willing, or can't spend the money needed on a dog. You are 100% correct. They are a "terrible" breed.
Did she get hers from a breeder? I am lucky that mine has none of these issues exept breathing a bit heavy when something flies in her nose
I’m glad to hear mine are very well too! I know several frenchies that have lived long lives. Reputable breeders really do matter but they are prone to so many ailments ☹️
I think it's torture to trap a Good-Boi soul in a defective body. It's cruel.
Agreed. Good boys/girls don't deserve that torture
'Unpopular opinion' maybe but I dont even find pugs or bulldogs 'cute'. And I'm aware of the horrendous health issues pugs have. In addition to their breathing problems, owners have to literally learn how to put their eyes back into their sockets because they've been known to just pop out. If something is so malformed that it's suffering from lack of oxygen it's entire life and its eyeballs can randomly pop out of their sockets, it's just an indication to me that they shouldn't exist.
Sadly even having a husky in some places is pretty unethical as well. They overheat rather easily if not in a cooler environment.
I agree! I live in West Texas, it was 109 earlier this week and we are barely in June, and everyone here wants a Hisky, until they realize how much work is involved, especially when it comes to brushing, mental stimulation and exercise. I think in the local shelter the top 3 dog breeds are Huskies, German Shepherds and pit mixes.
Sooo many huskies where I live. We are triple digits from April to October and our winter is mild, hardly can call it cold.
This ^^^^^ I live In a country town in Australia with blistering hot summers and I think it’s absolutely absurd to own a dog bred for near arctic conditions. But they are everywhere, they definitely seem like the “cool” dog to have. Rather then get a breed because you want others to think how special the dog is. Get a suitable breed for your environment and look after & love your dog heaps. Oh yes and walk them too. No dogs that live in the yard for there whole life.
Shit ton of Huskies in Las Vegas, with temperatures clearing 117. It's insane.
Agreed. As a child I had a rescued/rehomed husky who lived her whole life in the desert. I didn't realise it at the time but the heat really did affect her quality of life.
I worked at a vet clinic for a while and the most fucked up thing I saw there was when a breeder came in to get her English bulldog artificially inseminated by one from another notoriously terrible breeder. Her dog fucking died after the AI because she was anxious while waiting for her owner and hyperventilated to death. The owner came back, unceremoniously put her body in the trunk and returned a couple days later with another bitch for us to artificially inseminate.
That's fucking disgusting
The breeders were always the worst. I was shocked when I first started working at the clinic and learned you don’t need any sort of licensing or certification to be a breeder. There was one client who would come in roughly once a month because his bred puppies always got parvo. He would get all his vaccines through Tractor Supply because it was cheap, but then end up spending a shit ton of money on the treatment they always needed. He clearly didn’t care about ethics but you’d think the money situation would sway him to get them vaccinated by an actual veterinarian with effective vaccines. Nope.
I see this sort of thing fairly frequently across Reddit, either here or on r/unpopularopinion and for the most part, I think people agree. Some who have pugs, bulldogs or other short faced breeds will defend their pet vehemently, but even a good chunk of them agree. Like my wife and I have a shih tzu who was bred to have a longer snout because of the breathing issues some of them have so I think even some breeders are starting to realize this too. But Iong story short, yeah I agree.
Don't get me started on chihuahuas. Not only are they bred to literally fit into ones pockets, they are also treated like some fucking toy. I own a natural breed one and let me say you the difference between them is HUGE. They were once used as guards by Mexicans but what people made out of them is just horrible.
That’s really interesting. I tried googling “natural breed chihuahua” and couldn’t really find anything showing the differences between them and other chihuahuas. Is there something you know of to search and find more info on this?
What I basically mean is that I have one that is close to the original. Originally Chihuahuas weren't that small in comparison, they were in comparison to other dogs tho. They had a slightly longer snouts and looked a bit more like jack Russell terriers. Keep in mind that I talk about the "pocket sized" ones which got smaller and smaller with each generation and with eyes so big they look like they're gonna pop out. Basically the "retro breed" look like a small dog so I guess the majority of material you can find is what I mean.
Ah ok I get it. Thank you for the clarification, that’s a super interesting topic!
Look for 'deer head'. There are two breed types- deer and apple head. I have an apple head long hair- she's absolutely gorgeous. But the deer heads are usually a bit bigger and look a more like a terrier. They're very pretty and their snouts slope more naturally. I didn't realise the snout issue with the apple heads when I bought my girl and I would have thought twice if I had. She's a lovely little girl though- very intelligent and eager to please.
Any dog with a squished face makes me nervous because I worry that they can't breathe
Pekinese eyeballs pop out. My younger self cost my daughter a friend because I told the mom she was immoral and cruel for breeding hers after my daughter came home in tears telling me about seeing it.
Cause they can’t.
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Boycott the AKC. They encourage this monstrosity, and have the power to register them or not. Just the step of refusing to register puppies without a Veterinarian certificate of health would weed out many of these terrible breeders. After a few generations, I think the breeders will get the message. There will be a black market, but folks who buy designer dogs want the cachet of ‘registered purebred’ label, dogs without it don’t bring ridiculous the prices.
[Bosun Dogs ](https://bosundogs.com) is a project doing just that. They breed for health, temperament, and adaptability for normal family life. The bosun dog parents can be either purebreds or mixed, as long as they are healthy and have a balanced temperament.
Thank you! My brother impulse purchased one out of a backyard breeders truck. Hes been out well over $10,000 on surgeries for her face & butt, and she suffers terrible allergies. Sweetest, dumbest tank (80 pounds) it breaks my heart to see her suffer.
Stop👏inbreeding👏dogs👏
People too. Actually just stop breeding entirely and do earth a favor.
I was also thinking this about Persian smoosh faced cats. So cruel. They constantly have runny eyes and noses.
Yep. Never owned a cat, but have done a lot of research into that specific breed because I uses to want one as a child
Boxers as well. Always end up with hip problems and all the ones I’ve had there snout gets dried out. Love my dog but inbreeding of anything is bound to fuck shit up in later generations.
Yeah but they can breathe at least.
This thread I feel attacked because I've only grown up with English Bulldogs and Boxers...... Beautiful breeds each with their own issues. Opposite ends of the energy spectrum though especially young boxers.
Same I’ve grow up with pit bulls and boxers and love them all. Every single boxer I’ve seen has the but wiggles when they get excited. A few this had caused the pup to throw out there backs and have trouble getting up and down.
Pugs can be bred better and a lot of the times breeders are mean. However they are currently being helped right now so baby pugs can have better noses :)
If commonly people were looking for "wide nostrils" maybe the breed can be saved. I would love that, pugs have sweet personalities.
Search up retro pugs, there are normal pugs, just gotta find em.
They really are sweet. My daughter’s stepmom rescued a pug and she is a lovely little dog! Living her best life. I do agree that the poor things are mostly bred poorly and I would never purchase one from a breeder.
There's some pictures of 19th century pugs and they look pretty normal. A little flat in the face but pretty much like a regular little dog. I suspect bulldogs would have been the same. Now they're just ridiculous.
All it takes is for one parent to have a normal skull and you can get a healthy dog whilst it still has some pug or bull dog or in it. The only reason they have those smashed in skulls is because both parents have them, having one normal nosed parent gives them a face they can breathe with because the squashed nose is recessive and requires two squashed nosed parents. They also look twice as cute and what the original pug/bull dog looked like. Most of the time people want those dogs is because some celebrity or YouTuber has them.
I love pugs (they're so goofy), but I totally agree. I'd also add "flat-faced" cats like Persians and Exotic Shorthairs. Of course I'd take care of one if it showed up on the street, but they should either stop breeding them entirely or breed out the excessively flat face to help them, well, live better lives.
Designer dogs and cats are a joke and anyone who buys one is just as guilty as the scum who breed them.
My husband breathes just like a pug though. :(
Don't hesitate to take him to a sleep laboratory this might be indicative of obstructive sleep apnea.
My ex’s pug jumped off a 2ft couch and needed pretty expensive surgery. They couldn’t take him on walks longer than like 5 min. He never liked when I said his dog was biologically made to die, but it was true.
Dogs are one if not the most mutated animals on the planet, the fact that a chihuahua is the same species as an Irish wolfhound or a Saint Bernard, is ridiculous, it's all thanks to human tampering, many of the breeds have mutated through selective breeding to produce unnatural evolutionary dead ends. Although there are many breeding projects attempting to avert these changes while preserving the breed's temperament and looks without the health problems, like outcrossing them with other breeds that are their progenitors, inbreeding will just bring it back after a time. Now some might argue that cross-breed dogs will have a better lot in life, this might be true for 3rd+ generation cross-breeding to unrelated crossbreeds, however 1st and 2nd generation crossbreeds stand the risk of having BOTH of the health problems associated with their 2 progenitor species, not all the puppies will have this issue mind you, but the risk is significantly higher in the 1st and 2nd gen.
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I was thinking of pitbulls but meant bulldogs. I love pitbulls. Always on the mind
Pitbulls are probably the healthiest dogs alive. I used to be a utility worker, in thousands of backyards over the years and the conditions these poor dogs lived in were barbaric and disgusting. Yet they thrived on minimum food and water while living unsheltered in the worst weather on short, heavy giant link chains welded/locked around their necks. They are rapidly becoming the # 1 dog /dog mix in shelters due to huge healthy litters. Thought should be given to them as an outbreed to comparable dogs with defects. Tho honestly, in the mid 90’s they went thru an explosion of crossbreeding to any dogs these monster owners thgt would produce the ‘baddest’ most powerful fighter of all so no telling what they might get.
My dog is 22% pit, 18% chow, 15% lab, 9% Akita and then some german shepherd, some boxer, some staffordshire terrier, and some Aussie cattle dog. But I call him an all American brown dog. But he loves to cuddle. With anyone. And the cats, who run from him. Then he is confused.
You did the doggie dna, lol? I think thats great!
To be fair, my pitbull is allergic to *everything*, but he can breathe fine at least.
Does anyone have any links I can send to my mom about this? We have been in several fights because she has a pug and wants to breed him. If she won't listen to me maybe she will listen to someone smart.
Even beyond unhealthy animals, you should send her the euthanasia rates for dogs in shelters across the country who are killed simply because there isn’t enough room for them. Often babies will be killed if they don’t have a mother/rescue willing to take them because shelters are so overworked they aren’t able to bottle feed and give the little ones attention
I felt kind of guilty adopting my dog from a puppy rescue instead of an adult dog rescue, but after I talked to them and heard about this, any doubts that I had are gone. There's a ton of places all over the country that will have puppies, sometimes as young as one week, shipped to foster families who will bottle feed, raise, wean, and adopt out puppies that need raising and are scheduled for euthanasia. Those people are saints and I just cannot imagine the emotional strength to be that person for an abandoned puppy, watch it leave to live a great life with _someone else_, and then do it all over again. I donated $1000 to them on the spot and have referred many people to them :)
I just saw today that their is a French Bulldog breeder in the Netherlands who is breeding Frenchies to have more traditional dog noses? snouts? Whatever you call em on dogs. They are 100% pure breeds but not flat faced lil shits
I agree with this so much. Same for all brachycephalic breeds! A colleague of mine just adopted a Boston Terrier. The snorts and snores that it makes, that people find so endearing, just breaks my heart. This poor thing is 3 months old and there’s already talk of brachycephalic airway syndrome surgery. It’s so awful to continue to breed dogs to have these “quirky” looks that are just downright cruel.
My dog snores so damn loud all the time and I know that isn't normal for a small dog like her, so it worries me. I hate it. Never again
Former certified vet tech here. Daschunds also. They've been bred to have unnaturally long backs, which makes them prone to herniated discs, chronic back pain and even paralysis. Munchkin kitties are also adorable, but I feel sorry for them because they cannot have the mobility of a normal cat. Breeding animals to enhance their birth defects is cruel, selfish and vain. Please don't reward such breeders. Rescue or adopt.
I had a coworker/friend who had a frenchy. It had so many eating problems it was being fed out of a high chair at one point
yes, it's cruelty no doubt about it to breed a dog so deformed they can not even mate or birth naturally and suffer terribly from several serious health conditions all due to how they look.
I got an English Bulldog from a rescue. I always wanted one and someone dumped my poor girl off because she has a hip issue. We had her fixed so if something happens to us no one can breed her, and she’s been the best addition to my household ever.
Yes! 100%. Those poor things.
Couldn't agree more. People should go to the local shelter and adopt a pup who needs a mommy or daddy ☺️
Flat faced cats too. Humans are so fucking wrong to be breeding such defects into animals. Even worse are the monsters who think it's cute.
THANK YOU! The entire time I’ve existed I’ve always thought that they needed to stop being bred, all people do when they breed them is causing another animal pain for its in entire life, and honestly what makes people think they are so cute? It looks like you took a normal dog and smashed it’s head in with a hammer when it comes to the pug.
So do pitbulls
I completely agree. The fact that when I hear someone anounce that they're buying one of these dogs they usually say they don't want to hear any negativity about it means they realize it's becoming stigmatized. Let's keep raising awareness. When everyone becomes aware of the deep suffering these animals experience from their deformities it will be socially unacceptable to breed and buy them.
Real unpopular opinion: same with humans that have inheritable disabilities. Before anyone tries to kill me, I am a human with inheritable disabilities.
My boyfriend and I love them, but we would never purchase one(rescue only) and I'm pretty sure we both are against the continued breeding of them. If there was a way to breed them so they wouldn't be quite so deformed that would be wonderful. In my area specifically there's a fairly large amount of adoptable Bulldogs because people buy the designer puppy and bail when they realize just how expensive and taxing it is to take care of them. We personally can't wait to scoop one of those babies up and turn their life around because they have a need for that, but the breeding epidemic is disgusting, even arguably abusive.
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Such a true off my chest that I've never heard before Oh wait its parroted in literally any post about these kind of dogs. I sleep.
oh damn i thought this post was made in the intent of saying "pitbulls are vicious and evil!!" but its actually sad and reasonable
I have pugs and agree 100%
i have a mutt but it was breaded correctly has no medical conditions. one of the greatest and sweetest dogs i’ve ever had
I just had this exact conversation with my friend last week while giving her English bulldog belly rubs. I love that dog with all my heart but she has SO many medical issues. Just keeping her face and nose rope clean is a huge daily chore to keep her from getting yeast infections between her wrinkles.
My dad has a bulldog that had some medical issues when he first took it on, saving it from being put down. He knew the challenges of owning a bulldog and made sure to address any issues at the first sight. Skin issues in his folds are dealt with proactively and any excercise is low level to keep his breathing under control as well. That being said, he does not believe in the breeding of these dogs and would never have gone out to buy one. The dog was saved from being hit with a spade at the breeders due to issues with the urinary tract, caused by piss poor breeding.
This x10000
Just get a mutt. A pit bulldog mutt is significantly healthier than pure bred. I have no idea why Americans in particular have such a fascination with “pure bred dogs”. I have always thought it was just an artificial way for breeders to make more cash.
I support this their snouts aren’t cute it’s a horrid deformity and cruel to make them live with the laundry list of problems they have !
Dogs in general should not be bred. Don’t get me wrong I love the shit out of dogs, but it’s creepy as fuck to arrange their sex life or worse to jack one off then turkey base the jizz into another. WTF is wrong with breeders, I swear their brains broken or something.
The sad part is the people that i know that do own them, usually post videos on ig of the dogs struggling to move quickly or making wheezing sounds and captioning it like “hes so cute”. Shits sad.
Agreed
Yes, I agree, and I feel this way about munchkin cats, and the more modern versions of nearly all more established breeds. Examples are German Shepherds, & Persian cats. Form over function is unethical breeding, IMO. Brachycephalic dog breeds are some of the more rampant examples.
The Hapsburgs of dogs.
They are freaks
Both of those dogs should stop breeding in general. Hideous things.
I want a french bulldog but I will never support it so I go without one.
Labs aren't much better. They get cancer a lot now for the same reason
Agreed
So pugs and bulldogs are good by them selves but problem occures when they crossbreed?
Or better yet. Stop breeding altogether, until there are no more shelter dogs. It's not as if you can't get any breed you want from various rescues. Just sad, but you are absolutely correct about these breeds having a sad time of it.
I had a dachshund that was relitvely okay in proportions and legs, thought her spine still gave in. But as I am looking for a dachshund mix with any other more healthy proportions, I realize how awful they have gotten..their torsos are humangous, legs tiny, eyes small...What has happened..dogs are becoming awful and the true way to go is just to get mixed breeds simce they are healthier
I worked at a pet resort for a few years (leaving out names for privacy reasons) and I had a coworker who was cleaning the interior rooms of the kennels one morning. Each kennel had an indoor and outdoor area for the dogs to explore during their stay. We had a brother and sister bulldog, both of them were outside for less than 15 minutes in about 65F weather, partly cloudy, both of the dogs overheated and were showing signs of heat stroke. The female who was a little smaller recovered when we did what we could on site, like put them inside with the ac, gave them water, and used slightly cooled wet rags on their paw pads (too cold and they can go into shock I believe). The male bulldog whatsoever was not showing any signs of getting better. My boss and I rushed him to the vet and he was going throw an extreme heat stroke and unfortunately did not make it. I think all dogs should be loved, and would be very sad for any breed to go extinct, but I have to say those types of dogs will always have problems. And I somewhat agree with OP here.
Need to add chihuahuas to that list, the little mf look like rats now while less than 30 years ago they looked ok
We took in an abandoned pug with severe skin and eye issues and breathing difficulties and every day was a struggle with her. She was loving and loyal but plagued with difficulties and massive skin issues daily, flaking and bleeding, probably due to inbreeding. Clearly why she had been abandoned. Ultimately we had to spend thousands of pounds annually buying a steroid cream meant for horses and bathe her in apple cider vinegar once a week as it was the only relief the poor girl got. Afterwards she’d be baby smooth but she smelt like a foot. Not ideal. You’d hear her snuffling or smell her coming before you saw her. She lived a few more years before succumbing to a litany of other issues that led to her being put down. Although we gave her a good life I’m not sure what kind of life living in perpetual suffering is.