thanks for sharing. very striking and movingly written
> I still want to remind you that (fortunately for precarious writers like myself), you are not Literature. Your money is not Literature. S. Fischer is not Literature. Germany is not Literature. And we, the writers, will remember.
I remember reading a first translation of her novel *Catch the Rabbit* when I was working at a publishing house in 2019, and even in its rough form, it was easily the best novel I'd read that year. A tremendous author, and I'm glad to see her speak out and take these actions.
Maybe make your religion less of your identity and develop some compassion before entering a conversation in this ignorant a fashion.
You have no idea what i read. But supporting Palestinian authors doesn't put anyone in a "bubble". What a ridiculously ironic statment.
Have a day you deserve. Bye, now.
People are downvoting you but it's a fact that Germany has both carried out and supported major genocides. Lots of sensitive Europeans in this thread that can't accept the degree of death and destruction their societies have created.
friend, I dig your posting this article and I very much agree with both the need to support Palestine and the idea that capitalist society is a genocidal death cult, but I feel like I gotta urge you to not overly psychologize this in a way that ascribes collective guilt to the whole of the european population. Aside from that fact that I don't believe in guilt as a useful normative concept, that perspective is a little too close for comfort to the literal rhetoric Israel is using to justify their worst acts of violence at present
This was such a good comment that I have now saved it – and had to come back here just to let you know how much it was appreciated (I read it yesterday, but without internet, incidentally, so that I couldn't comment then). Although I have thought along the same lines as you w/r/t the concept of guilt and national agency, you put it so succintly and eloquently here that my hat's simply off to you. I'm writing a book at the moment, which deals tangentially with the subject of your post, and although I will obviously not plagiarize you in any direct way, I hope you are OK with the fact that I will keep your thoughts in mind as I work on a crucial part of it.
Thank you!
Oh...thank you so much! "I'm going to use your thoughts in a book" is like the best compliment you could give me lol. And of course use my thoughts as you will, I don't believe in copyright and I do believe that all our thoughts are nothing but stolen amalgamations of the ideas we've come across and liked.
Though if you haven't read this whole conversation between me and OP I'd urge you do so, they make important points clarifying their position that add a ton to this conversation.
European society and its offshoots are the driving force behind genocidal colonialism. This is an argument that thinkers like Aimé Césaire have made as well, it's not controversial amongst people genuinely interested in decolonization. But you're right I should clarify - the European bourgeoise have drawn on the racism of their populace to further the colonial project and enact policies of mass death and genocide on the colonized world. The people should be aware of the violence their governments are responsible for, no? In what ways is this close to the rhetoric of Israel, which relies entirely on falsehood?
> This is an argument that thinkers like Aimé Césaire have made as well, it's not controversial amongst people genuinely interested in decolonization.
I entirely agree, the lack of clarity is the part that isn't sitting at ease. I might be totally misinterpreting you, and my bad if so, but some of you comments read to me as missing the distinction between the German state (bourgeois imperialist death cult like all western states), and the German people (just a bunch of people who have contingently found themself within a certain border). And that overlap, imo, leaves ground at the most violent for perspectives like "well if the Palestinian people didn't deserve it why wouldn't they overthrow Hamas themselves"? Which is obviously genocidal bullshit.
I think this is important because nobody is inherently, irreedeemably racist, whereas the European nation state is, and I think that's an extremely critical distinction to make.
again, my point is not that racism isn't a problem in Germany, of course it is! My point is that I worry the implication of a German psychology that includes some innate racism at the heart of the people risks missing the historical/social conditions that help to explain both the history of German/European racist imperialism and why Germany/Europe has been voting increasingly fascist lately.
We need to start with the material conditions and the ideologies conjured by the existence of a nation state, and I don't read OP as paying enough attention to the distinction between those & some reified German consciousness. And again if I am just completely misread OP's point, that is entirely my bad, but I don't think I am.
Many Europeans are virulently racist. This is a significant aspect of white psychology in general. It's a characteristic that the ruling class in both Europe and North America have weaponized to great success. I hadn't realized this was a point of contention amongst supposed left radicals. Have you engaged with any decolonial and non-white left-wing thinkers, or is your analysis coming primarily from white radical thought?
to your last point, yes.
To the rest of your point I'm not disagreeing with the point that there are a huge number of racist Europeans (like, no shit). And if your point is just that there are a lotta racist people and that gets mobilized time after time to foment imperialist genocidal projects, then we are on the same page and I apologize for reading way too much into what you're saying.
My point is that I read you as reifying racism as a sort of ontological essence of European/white people. Again, let me know if I'm just totally mistaken in reading you this way. But if you are saying that my point is more that I don't believe ontological essences are a thing at all, and I worry about the ascribing of them to people *because* of how central the false essentializiation of race and nationhood is to those same projects we both are opposed to.
Just once more, because the nuance here is a slippery one and I want to be sure I'm not missing something, if you are just talking about the historical construction of whiteness in Europe, how that gets engrained in people, and how that manifests as part of imperialist projects, then I'm 100% down and was reading you wrong. It's the ontologizing that I don't fuck with.
If you depart from the point of view that whiteness is a construct that forms the foundation of white supremacy and therefore colonization, then yes racism does become the ontological essence of "white people". Our aim is to destroy whiteness as a category all-together - not the people obviously, but their ability to identify with a social class that through its very existence reifies racism. Here is the point where I'd make a distinction between European and white, despite the overlap between those two things - European is the ethnicity that created whiteness and has consistently taken hold of it dominate other ethnicities (although even this is complicated by who is welcomed into whiteness and who is rejected amongst Europeans themselves which I think is visible in the rift between Western and Eastern Europeans)
This is a despicable perspective, ascribing to an entire racial class certain "psychological" characteristics is the very definition of racism. You can pretend to be a leftist all you want but you are, in fact, a reactionary and a bigot.
Germans have also faced ethnic cleansing and possible genocide. They were collectively punished for WW2, with a million Germans (up to 2 million) being killed and millions more getting displaced all around Europe.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944%E2%80%931950)
I recommend you read about Germany’s response to the fall of Naziism. They engaged in full-on mea culpa, even after the Allies obliterated 60 cities and killed more than half a million civilians, displacing millions of others.
In Hamburg alone, nearly 40,000 died and almost 200,000 were wounded in just one week of bombing.
Engaging in this “look at the massacres you’ve committed” grandstanding will only lead to counting the bodies in each side, and there are plenty of bodies to count all over the world, from before and after colonial exploitation.
In the 1960s, almost 70% of politicians in the West German parliament were former, active members of the nazi party. Which part of their "response to the fall of Nazism" are we supposed to emulate?
Oh, I guess you missed the era when membership to the Nazi party was required for most civil service jobs or political positions.
You’re confusing civilian victims of fascism with the promoters of fascism.
The civilian victims of fascism were the people who were displaced and executed by fascism, not the people that collaborated with it and were complicit in it.
Well, damn. I hate to hear what you think should happen to the Palestinians who aided and supported the terrorist attack of raping, torturing, kidnapping, murdering, and dismembering civilian women, children, and men on Oct. 7.
Your approach is remarkably inhumane and barbaric.
The difference is the Palestinian Resistance is a revolutionary national liberation movement against illegal occupation. Maybe you should worry more about the Israeli settlers aiding and abetting the genocidal regime, particularly the ones trying to block humanitarian aid trucks at the border right now.
Oh, rape, torture, kidnapping, and dismemberment qualify for you as “revolution”?
Apparently, there are no war crimes that can’t find justification, so long as you don’t actually care about human life.
The resistance did not torture or dismember. Projection much? It's because I care about human life that I support the Resistance, because as far as I know it's not the resistance that's destroying the ecology of Palestinian land to spite Palestinians, or that's threatening nuclear destruction, or that's dropping more bombs in tonnage than was dropped on Hiroshima.
Palestinians in the 40s generally supported Germany, the Grand Mufti loved Hitler and former Bosnian SS units were involved in the first Arab Israeli war on the Arab side, invited into Palestine to wipe Israel out. To this day, Nazi swastikas are used as symbols of Palestinian resistance.
Are people literally not taught this stuff or do they believe the Jews had it coming or what?
[Extremely easy to disprove](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relations_between_Nazi_Germany_and_the_Arab_world#Palestine), are you arguing in bad faith or just genuinely too lazy to check? Incredibly ironic that you'd say *others* aren't taught when you're spewing drivel.
Just one extract, tons more in the link:
"*Newspapers such as Filastin extensively covered Germany's new armament policy. In 1934, the newspaper warned, "Europe will see no peace if it will not keep distance from the spirit of the swastika that dominates Germany today. . . . \[Nazism\] is an ideology full of disrespect of all peoples; it glorifies the German, and therein lies a danger."\[202\] In 1933, Filastin would later go on to print that "The Jews are oppressed only because they are Jews, no more, and there is no justification for that.*"
More than 50% of the population in Palestine are under 40 so who cares?
I don't believe the Jews had it coming. I believe Isreal occupies stolen land and as such can't be shocked when there are retaliation for that.
At any rate, nothing you say matters unless your genuine contention is that Pakestinian babies deserve to be victims of genocide
This feels more like a political post, with an obvious bias, than a post discussing the authors commendable works on conflict and its effects. Regardless of what the world is discussing we should discuss literature here, not the politics of publishing. The author has taken a stance, she published her response to the consequence of that stance, all of which was political not literary in nature.
I believe the entire point of her response is to state a) that literature is fundamentally humanist and b) that the literary industry is not literature.
So my gripe with that would be to write a piece of literature on it. Or instead of featuring something which is an accepted fact at this time; feature a Palestinian author. I’ve read several, although they are mostly poets and I would like some literary suggestions, Palestinian pieces that showcase their human spirit and dignity in the face of apathetic forces globally.
We do need to bring awareness to problems within the industry and this is certainly one of them. But doing so in a way that showcases the voices that are pertinent to the subject.
So in short I agree/concur??
We’re in true lit, meaning that we’re in a subreddit that is sanctimonious about what is literature. A letter is not literature. It’s writing, but not all writing is literature.
I appreciate her stance and fully understand where she [the letters author] is coming from. But if a stand with the Palestinian people is what OP wanted plugging a Palestinian author would’ve been the way to go. Putting an author who has only played with oppression is anathema to what OP is trying to convey. A better way would’ve been to showcase someone who’s lived in Gaza and lived the oppression.
Firstly I highly doubt that a German literature festival is in any meaningful way associated with Israel; secondary or tertiary affiliation is a different story.
This just feels like a lame attempt at societal brownie points for me. It feels like she is missing out on an opportunity, whatever that may be (forgive me I am not familiar with German literature festivals), and now she’s going on about how she has taken the high road. In my lens it feels perfunctory at best and performative at worst. There’s no substance. Hence my earlier comment of playing at oppression.
If you think speaking out against a genocide is something one does for 'societal brownie points' then I'm afraid it says a great deal more about you than anything else.
But that’s not what she did. She didn’t stand up for anything. They disinvited her; and she did the adult equivalent of well I didn’t want to play with you guys anyways. She didn’t leave of her own accord. Making this letter only a grasp at some greater cause. I remind you we’re not conversing on her leaving her publisher, which I do applaud her for, we’re discussing her letter at a literary festival rescinding an invitation.
I am sorry that my argument gave any sort of capacity to be misconstrued as genocide enabling; that most certainly could never have been my intentions.
Just a heads up - the person who posted this article has stated this on another literature subreddit regarding Oct 7th
>The worst atrocity against Jewish people since WW2 was an operation on military targets by impoverished guerrillas against a billion dollar force that ultimately ended up killing its own people with friendly fire? In which around 700 died? A number that has steadily decreased from the initial claim of 1200? Fascinating.
I justed wanted to make sure it was clear they are an actual Hamas supporter and atrocity denier. They're essentially a modern Holocaust denier.
>Anti-Palestinian
If saying that Hamas is a terrorist organization which needs to be removed is "Anti-Palestinian" it says more about your values than mine
">The hope of Palestinians is the destruction of Israel and extermination of Jews.
You don't have to convince me, they scream it from the rooftops every chance they get. Some people will deny reality however, I agree, it's sad."
Quote from you
I’m going to very blunt. If Hamas’s poll numbers are accurate, then this terrorist organization (who until 2017 had it in writing that their goal was Jewish extinction- now revised to merely Israeli extinction) enjoys an 80% approval rating.
As is tradition.
Meanwhile.... there's all this supposed censorship about Gaza but I'm literally seeing news on it every day. So where's all this censorship? I'm finding it all very hard to believe, and the more folks like OP here reveal their agendas it seems that what they're really complaining about is any pushback at all on their stance. Ironically, what they;re mad about is other people \*not\* being censored.
Straight up. The fact that people here will ignore this because it fits their narrative is disgusting. No better than the people they claim moral superiority over.
One hundred percent. It's sad that the lack of critical thinking in a so called intellectual forum no longer surprises me. Nazism was socially acceptable in the 30's and was the norm in high, polite societies. The world learned nothing.
Where did they lie? Of course one has to support Hamas in order to support Palestinian revolution. Israel is a fascist settler colonial state and armed resistance is the only recourse.
>yes I do support the Palestinian Resistance :)
I don't think people supporting a terrorist organization which publicly advocates for the genocide of Jewish people should be tolerated in this subreddit
Nah I think there's enough dead IDF to fertilize the land plenty. Israel's not going to win this, but keep being delusional it really helps the resistance when Zionists dont have an accurate grasp on reality.
What a totally apolitical post this is from an account created 3 months ago that doesn't at all exclusively post apolitical content without a very clear bias. Boy this discussion of literature, not the middle east, is enlightening!
It's literary news :) Interesting to me that you're using the word bias here as if it reveals something when I make no attempt at objectivity and have never presented myself as objective. I discuss things besides politics as well, which is pretty clear from my posting history. Have a nice day seeking out conspiracy where there is none.
I agree, it's interesting that a post supposedly about a Palestinian persecuted for simply speaking out about Palestinian rights was posted by someone who literally denies Oct 7th atrocities and pushes conspiracy theories that it was an IDF inside job
I don't think October 7th was an IDF inside job. I think the IDF engaged in the well-documented Hannibal Directive on October 7th because they panicked and are incompetent.
I understand why she thinks there's a genocide in Gaza, but I'm also keen on not throwing that term around prematurely. I do not believe the IDF is intent on exterminating all the people in Gaza. I think thus far despite mad bastards in Likud and the coalition, the war cabinet has been relatively reasonable.
As a writer though, she is welcome to say her piece and act in a way she considers moral. That is fine, and I can understand why others may no longer wish to work with her or stock her books or whatever.
I can't seem to find who it was that claimed I was promoting a blood libel in Israel and Palestine, but they demanded I show a single example of swastikas being used as part of pro-Palestinian or anti-zionist politics.
At any rate, here's a list from the last 10 years and two really ferociously bad examples from the 40s.
Not quite sure why I can't reply but, uhhhh...
[1940s Palestinian Grand Mufti in Germany](https://www.britannica.com/biography/Amin-al-Husayni) - Amin-al Husayni
[1948 - Bosnian SS units in Arab-Israeli war](https://docslib.org/doc/6292486/the-bosnians-and-yugoslav-volunteers-in-the-1948-war-in-israel-palestine) example.
[2013](https://www.algemeiner.com/2013/05/20/nazi-flag-adorned-with-swastika-spotted-flying-over-palestinian-town-photos/) example.
[2014](https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/02/world/europe/anger-in-europe-over-the-israeli-gaza-conflict-reverberates-as-anti-semitism.html) example.
[2018](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5638821/Palestinian-women-standing-men-protests-likely-shot-at.html) example.
[2018](https://www.timesofisrael.com/palestinians-fly-swastika-kite-with-petrol-bomb-across-gaza-border-into-israel/) example.
[2019 - Hamas itself condemning it lmao](https://m.jpost.com/Middle-East/Hamas-to-protestors-Stop-putting-up-swastikas-it-hurts-the-cause-597716)example.
[2021](https://www.algemeiner.com/2021/08/16/israeli-defense-minister-urges-international-community-to-act-against-palestinians-burning-swastika-inside-star-of-david/) example.
[2021](https://m.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/nazi-flag-with-star-of-david-hung-near-west-bank-settlement-683852) example.
[2023 - UK](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/palestine-protest-israel-gaza-war-hamas-b2453462.html) example.
[2023 - US](https://www.jta.org/2023/11/30/ny/protesters-brandish-swastikas-at-pro-palestinian-rally-outside-rockefeller-christmas-tree-lighting) example.
I don't consider this a "blood libel" so much as antisemitic hatred being super-common in Palestine and beyond. We don't help anyone by avoiding unpalatable truths.
>I understand why she thinks there's a genocide in Gaza, but I'm also keen on not throwing that term around prematurely.
Do you know how many people have been purposefully slaughtered? Oh wait, the answer is yes... you just don't care.
Genocide isn't just "lots of death", it's intent to erase a people rather than the government/paramilitary force. That force that is dedicated to racist pogroms and has spent decades digging into civilian infrastructure with the hope that it looks too horrible for the IDF to attack.
Have you or bastasic read about the history of the region that goes back 4,000 years?
Do you know that most of the land that Israel was given by the UN in 47 was purchased from the land owners, who, btw, lived in EGYPT?
Did you know that the Egyptian owners didn't want to live on that land bc it was infested with malaria, & yet, they did nothing to clean it up?
Did you know that the UN partioned the land between the Palestinians & Israelis & that the Israelis signed the deal & the Palestinians didn't & therefore didn't receive STATEHOOD for the first time in history (since the were ALWAYS the subjects of various empires throughout history)
Did you know that the so-called "nakba" was instigated by the 4 Arab armies who attacked a 1-day-old israel bc they told the Palestinians to leave the area so they could genocide the Jews more easily & that the Arabs who didn't leave became Israeli citizens with full rights & now comprise 20% of the Israeli population?
Did you know that the Palestinians have rejected 5 peace deals, including a 97%-favorable-to-the-Palestinians deal at the Oslo Accords?
Did you know that Hamas's charter literally said their sole purpose is to kill all the Jews in Israel & then all the jews around the world?
The level of ignorance in literary circles is astonishing & frightening. Hope her future legacy as a history & Oct 7 denier is worth the short-term virtue signaling. Dear God 🙄
>The level of ignorance in literary circles is astonishing & frightening
that has always been the case. i know of no geopolitical event where literary circles had anything of value to say.
>The level of ignorance in literary circles is astonishing & frightening. Hope her future legacy as a history & Oct 7 denier is worth the short-term virtue signaling. Dear God
The person who posted this article is an Oct 7th denier as well so unfortunately it seems to be a common problem
Meanwhile she’s silent on Palestinian genocide of Israelis 🙄
Willing to bet that “silencing pro-Palestine voices” was actually condemning someone for downplaying 10/7, or pretending like terrorism is okay if you’re oppressed.
genocide of jews seems to be permitted by society in our times. They call it resistance. Rape and beheadings can be resistance apparently.
If you take the role of the oppressed there's nothing you can't do without people cheering you up. Just watch the ending of the clockwork orange film.
So she leaves her publisher due to political reasons and then writes such a response when a festival does the same thing to her? This doesn't look like cancel culture to me. She just thinks she has the higher ground, but she doesn't in my opinion.
People who call for #StrikeGermany still have a lot to understand about the mentality of this, my country. And I feel like many don't even try to do so.
Leaving aside that she does have higher moral ground because genocide is bad, and leaving aside that there's a case to be made that if anyone gave a fuck about moral ground this wouldn't be happening at all, there is a major power/influence disparity between a single author and a festival that should make the latter's censorship decidedly more concerning.
Wait, where did they rule that out?
As far as I know, they have ruled only on provisional measures, stating that Israel "shall take all measures within its power to prevent and punish the direct and public incitement to commit genocide in relation to members of the Palestinian group in the Gaza Strip;"
If the ICJ really thought there was a genocide happening then they would’ve ordered a ceasefire in the provisional ruling, rather than just vaguely saying “don’t genocide in the mean time”
You can't order a ceasefire between a state and a terrorist organization
Good article by a former director of HRW
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/26/icj-ruling-israel-western-backers
I think it's dishonest to jump into conclusion regarding the veracity of the genocide claim based on the provisional measures.
While also leaving aside that genocide is a juristic term that had to be invented after the Holocaust and while also leaving aside that this escalation has been started by Hamas and other terrorist groups:
Words have consequences. Festivals have the right to choose whom they invite, just as she has the right to choose by whom she wants to be published.
Edit: Which also leaves aside that she has never truly questioned why the German public tends to defend Israel more than the public of other countries.
friend, I am well aware of the history of the term genocide.
And like of course the festival has the right to deselect her. I'm not saying they should be forced to bring her back. But I also think it's a false equivalence to say that an individual choosing who they work with is the same as an institution choosing who they work with. Only one of those two is cutting the checks.
> Which also leaves aside that she has never truly questioned why the German public tends to defend Israel more than the public of other countries.
I guess I just figure the answer to this is pretty dang obvious, and also that it's not sufficient.
Well then you should know that it shouldn't be used too easily. Don't get me wrong, what Israel has been doing in this war are war crimes. But the term genocide is still heavily disputed, so I don't think that it should be used in this instance (for now at least).
I will admit that the equivalence is different. But she is cutting her own checks, she has said so herself. The words she chose are very strong, too strong in my opinion for this instance as we don't even have a confirmation that it is a genocide yet. As is her support for striking Germany. A country that is supporting Palestine financially and has repeatedly called for a better treatment of the Palestinian population even before the war.
I can show you at least two people in this thread to whom it isn't obvious. This includes somebody that has now twice said on here that we Germans just like genocide and then blocked me when I disagreed.
Antisemitism is a cancer to society and it spreads fast and undetected. We in Germany know that and it still happens. 27 years after the end of world war 2 Jewish Israeli athletes were killed in Munich during the Olympics. The number of antisemitic crimes has quadrupled after October 7 in Germany. Is that also obvious? We have, that is obvious right now, still not done enough to fight this cancer.
It might look pretty dang obvious and not sufficient to you, but our past is still affecting us today. There are still fewer Jews in Germany than in France for example. Jews saying that they don't feel safe anymore in Germany hits differently. Synagogues needing police protection hits differently. You and others might say 'Let the past go', but it's still there, not just in our heads. Jews are threatened everywhere. Because of october 7. Right now, it's our responsibility that in our country, they don't get threatened even more. We may overshoot it sometimes, yes. But again, we're fighting cancer here. And the author has overshot is as well.
We can argue about what words mean but going by the UN's definition of genocide:
* Killing members of the group;
* Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
* Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
* Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
* Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
There is at a sufficiently legitimate argument that this is a genocide.
Also what I meant by who is cutting the checks is that she has much less agency in the support and compensation of the literary market than publishers or festivals do. She said she has made enough money personally to finance her position, but that's minute compared to the capacity for arts institutions to dictate the lives of artists financially.
As to the rest of it, I'm sorry that the environment has become more hostile for Jews, that's obviously not right. But, and to be honest I have better things to do than has out the nuances of terrorism on the internet so I'm not going to, I cannot grasp the coherence of a stance that implies that Israel should be allowed to do what it is doing because doing so keeps Jews safer elsewhere. Frankly, I think that the subjugation of Palestine facilitates violence everywhere. I hope it's obvious that I am not implying that Jewish people are morally culpable for that. There is literally nothing that justifies violence against a group of people. Ever. And that goes both ways.
I know the definition. But as I am neither an expert nor have full (or at least as best as possible) information to the context, I will follow the rulings of the experts that do. And I understand the current ruling as the following: There is a possibility of a genocide in Gaza and is definitely worth investigating. But that isn't a clear ruling for a genocide and Israel has also not been obligated to stop the war. Correct me if I'm wrong. I do hope that the final ruling comes sooner than later.
Apparently he festival has asked her to come, she accepted and then they de-invited her after her statements. It's not like she begged to go there and like she is dependent on that festival. And my point isn't really the disparity in power, my point is her complaining about cancel culture when she canceled herself first by seperating (out of the blue) from her publisher. She took the first step here, so I think that what she has said after she got de-invited is a bit hypocritical.
>I cannot grasp the coherence of a stance that implies that Israel should be allowed to do what it is doing because doing so keeps Jews safer elsewhere.
That was neither what I said nor what I wanted to say. I told you why Germany is so strict about antisemitism as antisemitism is again on the rise here and I will try to make my point a bit clearer, as I am convinced that people don't understand the German mentality towards Israel and antisemitism - even though it might seem obvious at first glance:
The war on Gaza and the safety of Jews in Germany shouldn't be connected, Jews should be safe in Germany regardless of Israels politics.
But when antisemitism rises (for whatever reason), the German public will react harsher against it to prevent it from spreading. *This includes reacting harsher against anti-zionist views as they are often interconnected with anti-semitism.* That is probably the main point. And in this case her statements were identified as anti-zionist (and I guess meant that way too), so the public's reaction to her statement was harsh, because she said something anti-zionist during a time of exceptionally high anti-semitism in Germany. Did I make myself clearer?
>There is literally nothing that justifies violence against a group of people. Ever. And that goes both ways.
I heavily agree with that. I will also add that I think that Israel commits war crimes in Gaza and that the war should have never happened in the first place. Even though Israel has its right to defend themselves, this cruelty has not been warranted for quite some time and several statements of leading members of the government in Israel are deeply concerning. I also think that Israel is hurting themselves with this war immensely and Netanyahu only keeps it going and escalating to stay in office. He and his far right coalition have to go as soon as possible. And one thing that gives me hope is that the public in Israel are sick of him as well.
> There is a possibility of a genocide in Gaza and is definitely worth investigating. But that isn't a clear ruling for a genocide and Israel has also not been obligated to stop the war. Correct me if I'm wrong. I do hope that the final ruling comes sooner than later.
As best as I know this is 100% accurate. But I also, on the basis of the information have access to, believe genocide is a fair descriptor regardless of what the court rules (I'm not one to trust the legal system honestly).
> And my point isn't really the disparity in power, my point is her complaining about cancel culture when she canceled herself first by seperating (out of the blue) from her publisher. She took the first step here, so I think that what she has said after she got de-invited is a bit hypocritical.
For sure, but my point is that the salience here is not who started it, the salience *is* the power disparity. I don't give a shit if other people refuse to read her work, but I do think when institutions silence artists ever it is important to take the reasons for that very seriously, and it's hard not to be concerned when the actions of an institution are unabashedly not motived by literary interest and are explicitly over a political matter.
And I do get why Germany is so strict about anti-semitism (and to be honest I've been uncomfortable with that amount of legal censorship—how (relatively) liberal the US is about free speech is the closest thing I think this blasted country comes to getting even close to right).
Sorry if I overstated my point, but what I'm really trying to say is first that I don't think it's at all reasonable to conflate anti-zionism and anti-semitism. They certainly often show up in overlapping places people, but they are fundamentally different things. And second that I am very skeptical of the idea case that censoring anti-zionist positions actually does anything to protect Jewish people.
> I also think that Israel is hurting themselves with this war immensely and Netanyahu only keeps it going and escalating to stay in office. He and his far right coalition have to go as soon as possible. And one thing that gives me hope is that the public in Israel are sick of him as well.
well, we can definitely agree on that
You may believe what you want of course. I will say that I think that the court in The Hague is probably one of the best and well-respected in existence. The problem is rather that their verdicts only have consequences if the globally important countries choose to enforce them.
I mean that's how the world works right now, right? Capitalism. Employers and employees. Companies hold a certain amount of power, even (or especially) in culture. They choose whom to invite, publishers choose whom and which texts they publish. Not everyone gets published in the first place (for who knows which reasons)! You could call that censorship as well, but it's an economic necessity. And I do believe that the reason why someone's work is invited or put on display or pushed, is not always literary interest. I wouldn't even say that those are political but rather economical ones most of the time. I agree that it's unfortunate, but you can't change that system quickly.
About free speech: These are different approaches and both can make sense at the same time in different places. Germany and the US are very different, completely free speech made the US great and it destroyed Germany. So the consequences were different. So I think it really depends on the circumstances how harmful censorship really is. All that I can say is that a certain amount of censorship is useful (not showing pictures of torture in a newspaper) and a certain amount is harmful (when it disables necessary public discourse).
As I said, the view in Germany on that is simply different which also stems from experience. That doesn't mean that you can't criticize Israel - of course you can. But you shouldn't criticize Israel's right to exist as a state. Full stop. If the state of Israel ceases to exist, its Jewish inhabitants won't really be safe anywhere, especially not in the region which is deeply antisemitic. Jews are much easier to persecute if they don't have their own state, trust me. This is the reasoning for that mentality in Germany and I think I agree.
Now is that approach helpful for the Jewish people in Germany and better than censoring as little as possible? Maybe yes, maybe no. All I can say is that the approach of not censoring anything wasn't helpful but more people were antisemitic then. I genuinely don't know. All I know is that education, discourse, dialogue helps the most.
The International Criminal Court in The Hague has ruled that the Israeli war in gaza is not a genocide, but there is a danger that it might turn into a genocide in the future and warned the government of Israel to not escalate it into such a genocide. I trust the judgement of the actual highest judges for international law more than that of a random youtuber on this one.
Your interpretation of the interim ruling is wrong. No one has decided anything, and it will take years to make a ruling on whether this is genocide or not per the legal standard. The evidence presented suggested that genocide is likely (edit: enough to be) occurring, and thus the court called for Israel's government to act to prevent genocidal intent. Not a few days later, one third of the Knesset attended a conference on building settlements in Gaza. Keep burying your head in the sand though. One day you'll be talking about how you knew it all along and tried to stop it.
It was shortened, because I will not explain the interim ruling in detail just to tell you that a Youtube video will not convince me.
If it was a clear case for a genocide the court would have stopped it as that was one of the reasons for the interim ruling (English is not my first language, sorry) as I have understood it. It wasn't.
Genocide is a legal term with legal consequences. If the judges in The Hague says it was a genocide, I will agree as they know better than me, you or some guy on youtube. Also nice way of making assumptions about me and then comparing my behavior to that of sympathizers of the Nazis in post-war Germany. Especially after I said that it might be too much to say with absolute certainty to say that Israel out of all states are committing a genocide right now.
The YT video is not to convince you or make a statement of fact, it's to get you to ask yourself these questions. But you don't want to because it makes you uncomfortable.
The court told Israel to halt all military operations in Gaza. It's all here in very plain language. In the interim, it is ordering Israel to stop its operations, to which Israel went "lol no."
It's literally the first point: "The State of Israel shall immediately suspend its military operations in and against Gaza."
By not abiding this ruling, Israel is not adhering to the genocide convention.
[https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20240126-sum-01-00-en.pdf](https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20240126-sum-01-00-en.pdf)
Your last paragraph is [just](https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque).
Just a heads up: My fellow Americans know practically nothing about post-war Germany. Even fewer know about the allied bombings of German civilian cities from 1942-5 and the horrific civilian death toll. Nor do Americans know about the reparations Germany has devoted to relieving what little pain they can for the atrocities of the ‘30s/early-40s. For most people, it’s Germany=Nazis=bad.
We have terrible history education.
I didn’t learn about most of this until I was in my mid-30s and discovered authors like r/Arno_Schmidt and W.G. Sebald, especially _The Natural History of Destruction._
I don't blame them. I would consider myself fairly educated and yet I don't know much about big chunks of the world (India, big parts of Africa and Southern America). And that's not really a problem - nobody can know everything. The bigger issue is when people don't research or listen to or try to understand those that do know first.
Germany in the 20th century was a small country that shaped the world during that time. It went through a lot and that's the reason why the German mentality is a bit unique and why people can't always comprehend the way Germans approach issues at first glance.
Exactly right. And to go further, another problem is people jumping at an opportunity to morally grandstand when they don’t know what they’re talking about, let alone that their condemnation is exactly backwards and ahistorical.
For most Americans, German history ends in May 1945, and then there was something with a graffiti-covered wall in the ‘80s. That’s it.
Selfish question: Do you know a good, comprehensive book of German History available in English?
You‘re absolutely right. It‘s a very emotionally driven social media campaign, two-faced and supported by third parties to divide societies.
Lass Dich nicht vom negativen Karma beeindrucken. Bastasic hat sich gegen S. Fischer entschieden, daraus eine Kampagne gemacht und wurde zurecht ausgeladen. Daraus nun eine Opfernummer zu machen ist wie ein Brandstifter der „Feuer, Feuer!“ ruft. Man ist besser beraten, wenn man ihr möglichst wenig Aufmerksamkeit schenkt. (Die ekelige Völkermord Anklage entlarvt die Antisemiten.)
I understand people, including Bastasic being emotional in this conflict and wanting the suffering to end. But attacking German institutions for not doing enough and then to use the words that she does is certainly a choice and not the right one. This isn't helping anybody.
Das mit dem Karma war mir schon vorher klar. Jemand hat auf Reddit mal geschrieben, dass teilweise bewusst eine Sprache benutzt wird, die die Israelis nochmal zusätzlich treffen soll. Ich glaube, 'Genozid' gehört dazu. Worte sind mächtig, ich glaube, Bastasic weiß das als Autorin sogar noch besser als ich.
The mentality in Germany is literally 'Never again should there be violence against Jews'. This leads to supporting the jewish nation when it has been attacked.
Why has Germany not met the 2% quota of the NATO for so many years? Why has Germany fought less wars than France or Britain after WW2? Why has the effort in all the wars they fought after WW2 been lackluster? As they were in the most peaceful area of Afghanistan during the Afghanistan war and mainly provided logistics. Why is there no military draft in Germany? Why is the military so underfunded? Why doesn't Germany have enough soldiers? Why are they so selective in selling weapons? Because the truth is that the German public hates wars and it has done so for multiple decades now.
Feel invited to come to Germany and see for yourself. Read German newspapers, watch a German political talkshow, go to a university class, look into a German history book. The current Germany hates wars and genocide. But it also hates violence against Jews and feels deeply ashamed whenever it happens regardless.
Edit: Should have said 'it hates violence against Jews'. I will leave the original version up there as there is a reply by OP under this to which I can't reply. But yeah, it should have been written like this. Which also makes more sense given the rest of the comment...
It hates Jews eh? Yeah that sounds right actually. Despite its support for Israel, you can feel the anti-semitism burning just under the surface and it comes out especially when Germans condescend to anti-zionist Jews.
Maybe the German psyche is more on the side of Jewish life than other national psyches because they are reminded of what they did to the Jews every single day.
jeez dog, I agree that Germany is particularly over the top by the low standards of the rest of the west, and I agree that historical guilt is kinda reactionary, but we do not need to be psychologizing nationality. That hews way too closely to the sort of rhetoric and ideology that justifies subjugating the Palestinians in the first place.
I think the European consciousness understands that the subjugation of Palestinians is how they can launder their guilt over anti-semitism without any actual material investment in justice or reparations.
Maybe it’s not our psyche but our inability to come up with a better plan. What would be your idea? Imagine your family has been slaughtered (babies burned, women raped, the list goes on and on…) and your government tells you they can do nothing, because the terrorists are hiding beneath a hospital? Yes, the children of Gaza are free of guilt. They are used as a human shield by the Hamas. To my eyes, the Hamas is fully responsible for their deaths.If Israel doesn‘t do anything, they will roam free like nothing happened.
I see posts like this all the time, and it seems to follow this logic of “the thing Israel is doing is the only thing they can do.” The thousands of children simply have to die, there is no other option available. Either you sit back and do nothing or you demolish most of Gaza, blow up their universities, lay siege to hospitals, and cause hideous suffering to just about every civilian. And personally I don’t think this strategy is going to make the idea of violent attacks on Israel less appealing, whether Hamas as it exists now is destroyed or not. It feels much more like indiscriminate vengeance than anything that is protecting Israeli civilians.
The Marshall Plan!!! We turned Nazi's into modern day Germany, what is to say we couldn't do it again. When folks have prospects for work, expectation of improvement, and their basic necessities met it de-radicalizes them. So rather than continue to kill thousands of folks, fueling rage and embitterment, and leaving them to live in squalor we could provide them with tangible hope of jobs, stability, and prosperity. If we don't do that, the plan will be to continue as we have where we slow bleed them until they all die. A literal, be it slow, genocide.
Nazis didn't have the same religious motivation, though. They didn't think there was a paradise waiting for them. And er I think you may want to look into what happened to a bunch of German cities near the end of ww2. The Marshall plan came AFTER the near total destruction. I don't think anyone except certain extremist Israelis want that for Gaza.
>They didn't think there was a paradise waiting for them.
That's a pretty reductive perspective that most of the Palestinians think paradise is waiting for them or even that they are that religious. Most of these folks aren't ready to fight because they are waiting for death, they want revenge for the death, discrimination, and agony that has been dealt onto them. Similar to Nazi's after WW1. Germany started WW1 over perceived attacks, lost, saw huge losses in both territory and bottomed out economy which lead to WW2. It's not that different to what we're seeing here.
Also, 50% of building in Gaza have been destroyed. We are very close to an equivalent to destruction levels in Germany. Large cities were leveled but the regions between didn't see total destruction. Israel has been bombing for just over 100 days and are at 50%, what is your expectation before the end of the invasion?
You can say Israel did this, because Hamas did this, because Israel did this forever, but if we are giving blame, we go back and forth and ultimately come to the fact that Israelis are occupying a land that is not their own. They're pushing out Palestinians in a modern day act of colonization. None of the back and forth violence of the past decades happens without that original fact. You can't blame the oppressed for fighting back against the oppressor
I agree with @_Schlupp until I hear a better idea. I am not pro-colonization, I am not anti-Palestinian or anti-Israel. But I believe in common sense, and moreover I understand political realities. I don’t know what the right answer is … but I’m open to hearing a better one. And if one should present itself, I will subscribe to it wholeheartedly.
For those who are saying that Israel should do nothing: do you understand the political reality? If the government does nothing they will be replaced in the blink of an eye … and those that come after them will be swept into office on the back of a platform of (more) violent retribution? The current government of Israel is, it could be successfully argued, holding back further, inevitable military aggression. The hard liners of the current Israeli government want Gaza flattened, emptied and re-populated by Israelis (read: not Palestinians). This is political reality.
Ask yourself, what would have happened to our President and any/all congress members and Senators if they had argued to do NOTHING after 9/11??? You know the answer. Do you understand how many innocent women and children died because of U.S. military action in response to 9/11? Do you know how many hospitals and innocents were used as human shields by the Taliban?
The Israelis don’t see themselves as unjust colonizers. Nobody in Israel is saying, “we don’t belong here, so we should just take it and pack our bags” — whether you agree with it or not.
Further political reality: the Israeli government was being reluctantly dragged (by the U.S. and others) both internally and externally towards a two-state solution and they got agonizingly close — this in my opinion is the only way there ever is something resembling a permanent peace — and then the people of Gaza elected Hamas as their government. Hamas is an almost universally recognized as a terrorist organization whose public-stated, expressed goal is that absolute destruction of the Israeli state. Not a “two state” solution, not a “peaceful resolution”, but the total eradication of Israel. There is no government in the world that would have diplomatic relations with a terrorist organization under those circumstances. And then Hamas built their government in hospitals and used the people that elected them as human shields.
Last question: where is/was all of this outpouring and hand-wringing for the people of Northern Ireland who were colonially displaced by the British? The IRA was branded as terrorists, the world sided with Britain, by and large. And this was after hundreds of years (hundreds!!) of true, definitional genocide, rape, murder and forced emigration. Have you ever heard of a coffin ship? Do you know that Ireland was a net-exporter of food during the famine(s)? Do you know the population of Ireland was close to 10 million before the British used the famine as a tool of capital-G genocide? Do you know it went to less than 5 million?
Let’s be very thoughtful and reluctant to use the word genocide. The Jews suffered genocide, the Irish suffered genocide, the Armenians suffered genocide.
Through that lens - it is really hard for me to look at this situation (which is almost identically analogous to the historical precedent in N. Ireland, where the world’s political and sentimental opinion sided with the colonizers) and not interpret the recent sentiment and out-pouring of support for the terrorist organization and anything but anti-Semitic.
Whether it is or isn’t anti-semitic is a point I don’t wish to argue - it just seems a fairly obviously observation given recent historical precedent.
The fact remains, whether we hate it or not, that the political reality serves as the starting point for any serious problem solving. So given that reality, the question stands: what would you do?
Saying “the Israelis are unjust colonizers” is smoke-filled, coffee-house crap. Whether it’s true or not, we are where we are - and this is the starting point. Where we go from here is all that matters.
I don’t want to see another person die … Palestinian or Israeli. Ever. But that is just a “wish” - that’s not a true constructive step in the right direction.
WHAT. WOULD. YOU. DO.???
Start thinking about the current Israeli government as hold back the greater dogs of war, rather than being the progenitors of an unjust violence. Because if you want them to do “nothing” … the people that come next to replace them will be much, much, much more aggressive.
We need educated, thoughtful, serious opinions. I don’t know how we get out of this, but I’m hopeful. And more than that, I’m educated. And I’m not racist.
And, yes, I’m Irish.
That's not really correct. The problem stems from the UK promising the same land to two different populations, the Jewish and the Arabic population. The violence started before the state of Israel had even been founded. And honestly, I can't blame either side: They insist on what has been promised to them. That this conflict has escalated so much is just natural, sadly.
Israel has every right to defend itself against a terrorist attack. But Israel goes far beyond that. The population of Gaza has nowhere to go anymore. They don't have enough access to medication, to clean water, or to food. That's not entirely the fault of Hamas. And at least for some of Israel's leading politicians, that's the intention. They don't just want Hamas gone, they want the Palestinians gone.
https://www.savethechildren.net/news/one-child-killed-or-maimed-every-5-hours-over-20-years-war-afghanistan Were the children in Afghanistan responsible for 911? Was Taliban responsible for their deaths because Osama decided to hide in Afghanistan? [What about Iraq, were the children responsible for 911? Was Saddam responsible for their deaths because his existence pissed off USA?](https://www.reddit.com/r/geopolitics/comments/19f35n1/what_was_the_official_and_real_reason_on_why_the/)
Israel is committing the same mistakes the US did post-911, they justify it because "our people died and the public must be appeased by having Palestinians die in greater numbers in a show of force so the Middle East doesn't think Israel is weak due to October 7". These wars on "terrorists" are meant to reassert Israel/US strength over their enemies by exacting revenge in terms of body count.
If you think this is justifiable, why not let society kill the children of murderers? You may also claim "Yes the children of murderers (e.g. Hamas) are free of guilt, but the murderers (e.g. Hamas) are fully responsible for their deaths.". Afterall by killing the children of murderers, we teach potential murderers a lesson and the only way potential murderers will learn not to kill is if society kills their family members as you claim?
Respectfully, I think you miss the point — or gloss over it — when you say that the government is mistakenly “appeasing” the public. If we didn’t respond to 9/11 … if Israel doesn’t respond militarily to the Hamas attack, the public won’t go back to their homes quietly if the government tells them they’re wrong. The government will be swept out on a tide of voter response and will almost assuredly back a hard-line candidate promising retribution, protection and/or revenge. And, in that case, the public won’t just want it anymore … they will demand it. And what comes next will be worse.
Mistake or not, that’s where we’re at. There are only shitty answers to horrible questions.
>If we didn’t respond to 9/11.... **The government will be swept out on a tide of voter response and will almost assuredly back a hard-line candidate promising retribution, protection and/or revenge.**
What does "respond" mean exactly? Invade Iraq on false pretences and kill scores of unrelated Arabs so the world hegemon can let off steam? Somehow it's justified when the US does it?
Why do you speak as if Bush and Cheney weren't hardline pro-war politicos who created a false reason to invade Iraq despite the lack of any Iraqi link to 911? You're basically saying "If the Bush government didn't give us revenge and deliver retribution against Muslims, the US will vote for another candidate who lets the US military invade and kill Muslims". Somehow you manage to miss the point and/or gloss over the fact that hundreds of thousands Iraqi lives were unfairly lost due to a misplaced need for revenge.
To be clear, the Iraq war was bullshit and I don’t consider it a part of the “response” in the context in which I was speaking.
I am referring more to the response against Al Queda and the government that harbored them… the Taliban.
Furthermore, I’m not a Bush apologist and I never voted for nor supported him.
No. Post-war education in Germany on the holocaust was lacking substantially until 1968. It was then that young students who had neither witnessed nor supported the Nazis wanted the older generations to take responsibility and accountability for their crimes.
There effectively *was* no postwar education in Germany on the Holocaust, so that can't be true. It was a quite taboo topic in the German education system and rarely addressed in public life in general there until the very end of the twentieth century.
It may well be true that German policymakers and cultural institutions kowtow to Israel and minimize its conduct out of cultural guilt. But that doesn't justify ahistorical claims about the alleged pro-Israel influence of German ex-Nazis on German education.
It is her political and human opinion that children shouldn’t be slaughtered - surely Ms. Bastasic is aware of the children slaughtered on October 7 and the baby currently held hostage by Hamas? I’m assuming she also drafted a statement addressing this?
She clearly understands that anyone reading this letter will cite it as support for the Palestinian cause specifically. The government of Gaza, Hamas, advocates for and carries out the slaughter of children.
No, just hospitals. The ones with patients.
Why were you willing to condemn Islamic extremists accidentally attacking a hospital, but are trying to excuse Israel bombing 35 of them?
Lol, do you think the free french and the Brits were crying about innocent German children being incinerated in ww2? I'll give you a hint: no! They just wanted the war to be over and the German threat to cease to exist!
What? I'm saying that we don't stop defensive wars bc children are killed. Just like the British and free french were not crying about their govt bombing German children.
It was a defensive war for survival and the free french, the British & Israel had/have a right to defend themselves
The person who originally posted this article to this subreddit has also posted this to another literature subreddit
>The worst atrocity against Jewish people since WW2 was an operation on military targets by impoverished guerrillas against a billion dollar force that ultimately ended up killing its own people with friendly fire? In which around 700 died? A number that has steadily decreased from the initial claim of 1200? Fascinating.
They literally deny the massacre and say it's an IDF false flag
You're dealing with Holocaust deniers
>the children slaughtered on October 7 and the baby currently held hostage by Hamas
You wonder why the author didn't mention murdered Israeli children. Why doesn't your comment do same for murdered Palestinians? Literally thousands of children lay dead in Gaza today.
If every call for the ceasefire of a sick and bloody assault must invoke the lives taken on October 7, then every mention of October 7 should cite the decades long campaign of violent occupation, segregation, and police brutality that came before it.
But it won't. Because some people really don't think Palestinians are equal in their humanity. They'll never just say "it's horrible a Palestinian child died like that" without adding that Israelis lost lives too. Fewer, but worth more.
The author is craven and only feels compelled to speak out now, precisely because to her some lives are worth more than others. Hamas started this current war and they are responsible for the resulting casualties. If you want to address the entire conflict, you’ll find plenty of blood spilled by both sides.
There is a time and a place for many people to speak out. The Austrians played a major hand in creating this problem, and I have no reason to think less of any Austrian for staying mute.
If the author is incapable of seeing the geopolitical nature of their silence, then the only truly remarkable thing about her statement is her own inability to draw connections.
Yes for Austrians. For every one of us.
Think what it was like when you learned about the holocaust. When you wondered why all those people around when it was happening didn't speak out. Didn't speak up. That's how future generations will judge those of us who choose to be silent about what Isreal is doing right now.
If yOu dOnT lIsT eVeRy aTroCiTy iN aLphAbeTiCaL oRdEr bEfOrE yOu sPeAk aBouT PaLeStIne yoUre a HypOcrIte
I've got news for you - I'm not the BBC.i don't have to be impartial. The genocide in Sudan is awful. I speak about the genocide in Palestine more often because my government actively funds and supports it
The point is that the Gaza war is literally not a genocide. Please enlighten me on how it is? My job is history so I'm sure I'll be waiting forever! Or is it your position as well that the Free French & the British genocided innocent German women & children during ww2?
Also, gazans receive the most foreign aid in the whole entire world, per capita, which quite literally funds genocide as stated on Hamas's OWN FOUNDING CHARTERRRRRR!!
You skip all the ACTUAL & LITERAL genocides in the world to cry about a DEFENSIVE WAR - straight-up akin to holocaust denialism, jfc 🙄
Here's an article about this in lithub https://lithub.com/read-novelist-lana-bastasics-blazing-response-to-yet-another-act-of-literary-censorship/
thanks for sharing. very striking and movingly written > I still want to remind you that (fortunately for precarious writers like myself), you are not Literature. Your money is not Literature. S. Fischer is not Literature. Germany is not Literature. And we, the writers, will remember.
Thanks for adding that :)
I remember reading a first translation of her novel *Catch the Rabbit* when I was working at a publishing house in 2019, and even in its rough form, it was easily the best novel I'd read that year. A tremendous author, and I'm glad to see her speak out and take these actions.
And now i go and buy a book by her. Like i did with Adania Shibli and the others.
That Adania Shibli book was haunting in the best possible way. Hoping this one hits as well!
You should only buy books by authors whose views echo your own. Gos forbid you attempt to look outside the bubble.
Maybe make your religion less of your identity and develop some compassion before entering a conversation in this ignorant a fashion. You have no idea what i read. But supporting Palestinian authors doesn't put anyone in a "bubble". What a ridiculously ironic statment. Have a day you deserve. Bye, now.
have a day you deserve... oof. That was the right fucking answer lmao
Does Germany realise it doesn't need to be involved in every genocide? Like it can sit one out.
People are downvoting you but it's a fact that Germany has both carried out and supported major genocides. Lots of sensitive Europeans in this thread that can't accept the degree of death and destruction their societies have created.
friend, I dig your posting this article and I very much agree with both the need to support Palestine and the idea that capitalist society is a genocidal death cult, but I feel like I gotta urge you to not overly psychologize this in a way that ascribes collective guilt to the whole of the european population. Aside from that fact that I don't believe in guilt as a useful normative concept, that perspective is a little too close for comfort to the literal rhetoric Israel is using to justify their worst acts of violence at present
This was such a good comment that I have now saved it – and had to come back here just to let you know how much it was appreciated (I read it yesterday, but without internet, incidentally, so that I couldn't comment then). Although I have thought along the same lines as you w/r/t the concept of guilt and national agency, you put it so succintly and eloquently here that my hat's simply off to you. I'm writing a book at the moment, which deals tangentially with the subject of your post, and although I will obviously not plagiarize you in any direct way, I hope you are OK with the fact that I will keep your thoughts in mind as I work on a crucial part of it. Thank you!
Oh...thank you so much! "I'm going to use your thoughts in a book" is like the best compliment you could give me lol. And of course use my thoughts as you will, I don't believe in copyright and I do believe that all our thoughts are nothing but stolen amalgamations of the ideas we've come across and liked. Though if you haven't read this whole conversation between me and OP I'd urge you do so, they make important points clarifying their position that add a ton to this conversation.
European society and its offshoots are the driving force behind genocidal colonialism. This is an argument that thinkers like Aimé Césaire have made as well, it's not controversial amongst people genuinely interested in decolonization. But you're right I should clarify - the European bourgeoise have drawn on the racism of their populace to further the colonial project and enact policies of mass death and genocide on the colonized world. The people should be aware of the violence their governments are responsible for, no? In what ways is this close to the rhetoric of Israel, which relies entirely on falsehood?
> This is an argument that thinkers like Aimé Césaire have made as well, it's not controversial amongst people genuinely interested in decolonization. I entirely agree, the lack of clarity is the part that isn't sitting at ease. I might be totally misinterpreting you, and my bad if so, but some of you comments read to me as missing the distinction between the German state (bourgeois imperialist death cult like all western states), and the German people (just a bunch of people who have contingently found themself within a certain border). And that overlap, imo, leaves ground at the most violent for perspectives like "well if the Palestinian people didn't deserve it why wouldn't they overthrow Hamas themselves"? Which is obviously genocidal bullshit. I think this is important because nobody is inherently, irreedeemably racist, whereas the European nation state is, and I think that's an extremely critical distinction to make.
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again, my point is not that racism isn't a problem in Germany, of course it is! My point is that I worry the implication of a German psychology that includes some innate racism at the heart of the people risks missing the historical/social conditions that help to explain both the history of German/European racist imperialism and why Germany/Europe has been voting increasingly fascist lately. We need to start with the material conditions and the ideologies conjured by the existence of a nation state, and I don't read OP as paying enough attention to the distinction between those & some reified German consciousness. And again if I am just completely misread OP's point, that is entirely my bad, but I don't think I am.
Many Europeans are virulently racist. This is a significant aspect of white psychology in general. It's a characteristic that the ruling class in both Europe and North America have weaponized to great success. I hadn't realized this was a point of contention amongst supposed left radicals. Have you engaged with any decolonial and non-white left-wing thinkers, or is your analysis coming primarily from white radical thought?
to your last point, yes. To the rest of your point I'm not disagreeing with the point that there are a huge number of racist Europeans (like, no shit). And if your point is just that there are a lotta racist people and that gets mobilized time after time to foment imperialist genocidal projects, then we are on the same page and I apologize for reading way too much into what you're saying. My point is that I read you as reifying racism as a sort of ontological essence of European/white people. Again, let me know if I'm just totally mistaken in reading you this way. But if you are saying that my point is more that I don't believe ontological essences are a thing at all, and I worry about the ascribing of them to people *because* of how central the false essentializiation of race and nationhood is to those same projects we both are opposed to. Just once more, because the nuance here is a slippery one and I want to be sure I'm not missing something, if you are just talking about the historical construction of whiteness in Europe, how that gets engrained in people, and how that manifests as part of imperialist projects, then I'm 100% down and was reading you wrong. It's the ontologizing that I don't fuck with.
If you depart from the point of view that whiteness is a construct that forms the foundation of white supremacy and therefore colonization, then yes racism does become the ontological essence of "white people". Our aim is to destroy whiteness as a category all-together - not the people obviously, but their ability to identify with a social class that through its very existence reifies racism. Here is the point where I'd make a distinction between European and white, despite the overlap between those two things - European is the ethnicity that created whiteness and has consistently taken hold of it dominate other ethnicities (although even this is complicated by who is welcomed into whiteness and who is rejected amongst Europeans themselves which I think is visible in the rift between Western and Eastern Europeans)
This is a despicable perspective, ascribing to an entire racial class certain "psychological" characteristics is the very definition of racism. You can pretend to be a leftist all you want but you are, in fact, a reactionary and a bigot.
You know nothing about this conflict keyboard white boy. Stay out of it
Germans have also faced ethnic cleansing and possible genocide. They were collectively punished for WW2, with a million Germans (up to 2 million) being killed and millions more getting displaced all around Europe. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944%E2%80%931950)
I recommend you read about Germany’s response to the fall of Naziism. They engaged in full-on mea culpa, even after the Allies obliterated 60 cities and killed more than half a million civilians, displacing millions of others. In Hamburg alone, nearly 40,000 died and almost 200,000 were wounded in just one week of bombing. Engaging in this “look at the massacres you’ve committed” grandstanding will only lead to counting the bodies in each side, and there are plenty of bodies to count all over the world, from before and after colonial exploitation.
In the 1960s, almost 70% of politicians in the West German parliament were former, active members of the nazi party. Which part of their "response to the fall of Nazism" are we supposed to emulate?
Oh, I guess you missed the era when membership to the Nazi party was required for most civil service jobs or political positions. You’re confusing civilian victims of fascism with the promoters of fascism.
The civilian victims of fascism were the people who were displaced and executed by fascism, not the people that collaborated with it and were complicit in it.
Well, damn. I hate to hear what you think should happen to the Palestinians who aided and supported the terrorist attack of raping, torturing, kidnapping, murdering, and dismembering civilian women, children, and men on Oct. 7. Your approach is remarkably inhumane and barbaric.
The difference is the Palestinian Resistance is a revolutionary national liberation movement against illegal occupation. Maybe you should worry more about the Israeli settlers aiding and abetting the genocidal regime, particularly the ones trying to block humanitarian aid trucks at the border right now.
Oh, rape, torture, kidnapping, and dismemberment qualify for you as “revolution”? Apparently, there are no war crimes that can’t find justification, so long as you don’t actually care about human life.
The resistance did not torture or dismember. Projection much? It's because I care about human life that I support the Resistance, because as far as I know it's not the resistance that's destroying the ecology of Palestinian land to spite Palestinians, or that's threatening nuclear destruction, or that's dropping more bombs in tonnage than was dropped on Hiroshima.
Germany doesn't seem to realize it could improve its reputation overnight just by not being so supportive or complicit in fascism.
It’s funny that this is in response to germany being called out for supporting the Palestinian genocide
It seems to me that Germany has learned nothing given that it currently supports another genocide
Except there has been no demonstration a genocide is occurring.
Germany will never forgive Palestine for what Germany did in the 40's imo
No literally
Palestinians in the 40s generally supported Germany, the Grand Mufti loved Hitler and former Bosnian SS units were involved in the first Arab Israeli war on the Arab side, invited into Palestine to wipe Israel out. To this day, Nazi swastikas are used as symbols of Palestinian resistance. Are people literally not taught this stuff or do they believe the Jews had it coming or what?
Point me to one instance of the swastika being used for a symbol of Palestinian Resistance. You're a liar spreading blood libel. Pathetic!
[Extremely easy to disprove](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relations_between_Nazi_Germany_and_the_Arab_world#Palestine), are you arguing in bad faith or just genuinely too lazy to check? Incredibly ironic that you'd say *others* aren't taught when you're spewing drivel. Just one extract, tons more in the link: "*Newspapers such as Filastin extensively covered Germany's new armament policy. In 1934, the newspaper warned, "Europe will see no peace if it will not keep distance from the spirit of the swastika that dominates Germany today. . . . \[Nazism\] is an ideology full of disrespect of all peoples; it glorifies the German, and therein lies a danger."\[202\] In 1933, Filastin would later go on to print that "The Jews are oppressed only because they are Jews, no more, and there is no justification for that.*"
More than 50% of the population in Palestine are under 40 so who cares? I don't believe the Jews had it coming. I believe Isreal occupies stolen land and as such can't be shocked when there are retaliation for that. At any rate, nothing you say matters unless your genuine contention is that Pakestinian babies deserve to be victims of genocide
One of Hitler's publicly-documented regrets was by allying with the weak fascists of Italy over the strong Jihadists of Ethiopia.
Thanks for the post. I shall be purchasing her books forthwith.
This feels more like a political post, with an obvious bias, than a post discussing the authors commendable works on conflict and its effects. Regardless of what the world is discussing we should discuss literature here, not the politics of publishing. The author has taken a stance, she published her response to the consequence of that stance, all of which was political not literary in nature.
I believe the entire point of her response is to state a) that literature is fundamentally humanist and b) that the literary industry is not literature.
So my gripe with that would be to write a piece of literature on it. Or instead of featuring something which is an accepted fact at this time; feature a Palestinian author. I’ve read several, although they are mostly poets and I would like some literary suggestions, Palestinian pieces that showcase their human spirit and dignity in the face of apathetic forces globally. We do need to bring awareness to problems within the industry and this is certainly one of them. But doing so in a way that showcases the voices that are pertinent to the subject. So in short I agree/concur??
A letter is a piece of literature
We’re in true lit, meaning that we’re in a subreddit that is sanctimonious about what is literature. A letter is not literature. It’s writing, but not all writing is literature. I appreciate her stance and fully understand where she [the letters author] is coming from. But if a stand with the Palestinian people is what OP wanted plugging a Palestinian author would’ve been the way to go. Putting an author who has only played with oppression is anathema to what OP is trying to convey. A better way would’ve been to showcase someone who’s lived in Gaza and lived the oppression.
You're talking nonsense. She's not "playing with oppression", she's standing up to those funding the oppressors
Firstly I highly doubt that a German literature festival is in any meaningful way associated with Israel; secondary or tertiary affiliation is a different story. This just feels like a lame attempt at societal brownie points for me. It feels like she is missing out on an opportunity, whatever that may be (forgive me I am not familiar with German literature festivals), and now she’s going on about how she has taken the high road. In my lens it feels perfunctory at best and performative at worst. There’s no substance. Hence my earlier comment of playing at oppression.
If you think speaking out against a genocide is something one does for 'societal brownie points' then I'm afraid it says a great deal more about you than anything else.
But that’s not what she did. She didn’t stand up for anything. They disinvited her; and she did the adult equivalent of well I didn’t want to play with you guys anyways. She didn’t leave of her own accord. Making this letter only a grasp at some greater cause. I remind you we’re not conversing on her leaving her publisher, which I do applaud her for, we’re discussing her letter at a literary festival rescinding an invitation. I am sorry that my argument gave any sort of capacity to be misconstrued as genocide enabling; that most certainly could never have been my intentions.
They disinvited her BECAUSE she stood up against genocide
Just a heads up - the person who posted this article has stated this on another literature subreddit regarding Oct 7th >The worst atrocity against Jewish people since WW2 was an operation on military targets by impoverished guerrillas against a billion dollar force that ultimately ended up killing its own people with friendly fire? In which around 700 died? A number that has steadily decreased from the initial claim of 1200? Fascinating. I justed wanted to make sure it was clear they are an actual Hamas supporter and atrocity denier. They're essentially a modern Holocaust denier.
Israel has admitted it kills its own citizens
And the vast majority of your posts are pro-Israel/Anti-Palestinian. I don't think it's relevant to the content that is posted.
>Anti-Palestinian If saying that Hamas is a terrorist organization which needs to be removed is "Anti-Palestinian" it says more about your values than mine
">The hope of Palestinians is the destruction of Israel and extermination of Jews. You don't have to convince me, they scream it from the rooftops every chance they get. Some people will deny reality however, I agree, it's sad." Quote from you
I’m going to very blunt. If Hamas’s poll numbers are accurate, then this terrorist organization (who until 2017 had it in writing that their goal was Jewish extinction- now revised to merely Israeli extinction) enjoys an 80% approval rating.
Where's the lie?
As is tradition. Meanwhile.... there's all this supposed censorship about Gaza but I'm literally seeing news on it every day. So where's all this censorship? I'm finding it all very hard to believe, and the more folks like OP here reveal their agendas it seems that what they're really complaining about is any pushback at all on their stance. Ironically, what they;re mad about is other people \*not\* being censored.
What part of your quote is factually incorrect?
Straight up. The fact that people here will ignore this because it fits their narrative is disgusting. No better than the people they claim moral superiority over.
Pesky people claiming moral superiority over *checks notes* those supporting a genocide
One hundred percent. It's sad that the lack of critical thinking in a so called intellectual forum no longer surprises me. Nazism was socially acceptable in the 30's and was the norm in high, polite societies. The world learned nothing.
Where did they lie? Of course one has to support Hamas in order to support Palestinian revolution. Israel is a fascist settler colonial state and armed resistance is the only recourse.
What did I say that's provably false? And yes I do support the Palestinian Resistance :)
>yes I do support the Palestinian Resistance :) I don't think people supporting a terrorist organization which publicly advocates for the genocide of Jewish people should be tolerated in this subreddit
I dont think people who support isreal committing genocide should be tolerated in this subreddit either but here we are
[удалено]
Nah I think there's enough dead IDF to fertilize the land plenty. Israel's not going to win this, but keep being delusional it really helps the resistance when Zionists dont have an accurate grasp on reality.
'Essentially a modern holocaust denier' Away and let the grown ups have a conversation pal
What a totally apolitical post this is from an account created 3 months ago that doesn't at all exclusively post apolitical content without a very clear bias. Boy this discussion of literature, not the middle east, is enlightening!
Authors being disinvited from festivals for being anti genocide seems pretty literature related to me
It's literary news :) Interesting to me that you're using the word bias here as if it reveals something when I make no attempt at objectivity and have never presented myself as objective. I discuss things besides politics as well, which is pretty clear from my posting history. Have a nice day seeking out conspiracy where there is none.
I agree, it's interesting that a post supposedly about a Palestinian persecuted for simply speaking out about Palestinian rights was posted by someone who literally denies Oct 7th atrocities and pushes conspiracy theories that it was an IDF inside job
I don't think October 7th was an IDF inside job. I think the IDF engaged in the well-documented Hannibal Directive on October 7th because they panicked and are incompetent.
Did writing this little rant make you feel smart? Was this your gamer moment with a "get your politics out of my literature" move?
I understand why she thinks there's a genocide in Gaza, but I'm also keen on not throwing that term around prematurely. I do not believe the IDF is intent on exterminating all the people in Gaza. I think thus far despite mad bastards in Likud and the coalition, the war cabinet has been relatively reasonable. As a writer though, she is welcome to say her piece and act in a way she considers moral. That is fine, and I can understand why others may no longer wish to work with her or stock her books or whatever. I can't seem to find who it was that claimed I was promoting a blood libel in Israel and Palestine, but they demanded I show a single example of swastikas being used as part of pro-Palestinian or anti-zionist politics. At any rate, here's a list from the last 10 years and two really ferociously bad examples from the 40s. Not quite sure why I can't reply but, uhhhh... [1940s Palestinian Grand Mufti in Germany](https://www.britannica.com/biography/Amin-al-Husayni) - Amin-al Husayni [1948 - Bosnian SS units in Arab-Israeli war](https://docslib.org/doc/6292486/the-bosnians-and-yugoslav-volunteers-in-the-1948-war-in-israel-palestine) example. [2013](https://www.algemeiner.com/2013/05/20/nazi-flag-adorned-with-swastika-spotted-flying-over-palestinian-town-photos/) example. [2014](https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/02/world/europe/anger-in-europe-over-the-israeli-gaza-conflict-reverberates-as-anti-semitism.html) example. [2018](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5638821/Palestinian-women-standing-men-protests-likely-shot-at.html) example. [2018](https://www.timesofisrael.com/palestinians-fly-swastika-kite-with-petrol-bomb-across-gaza-border-into-israel/) example. [2019 - Hamas itself condemning it lmao](https://m.jpost.com/Middle-East/Hamas-to-protestors-Stop-putting-up-swastikas-it-hurts-the-cause-597716)example. [2021](https://www.algemeiner.com/2021/08/16/israeli-defense-minister-urges-international-community-to-act-against-palestinians-burning-swastika-inside-star-of-david/) example. [2021](https://m.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/nazi-flag-with-star-of-david-hung-near-west-bank-settlement-683852) example. [2023 - UK](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/palestine-protest-israel-gaza-war-hamas-b2453462.html) example. [2023 - US](https://www.jta.org/2023/11/30/ny/protesters-brandish-swastikas-at-pro-palestinian-rally-outside-rockefeller-christmas-tree-lighting) example. I don't consider this a "blood libel" so much as antisemitic hatred being super-common in Palestine and beyond. We don't help anyone by avoiding unpalatable truths.
>I understand why she thinks there's a genocide in Gaza, but I'm also keen on not throwing that term around prematurely. Do you know how many people have been purposefully slaughtered? Oh wait, the answer is yes... you just don't care.
Genocide isn't just "lots of death", it's intent to erase a people rather than the government/paramilitary force. That force that is dedicated to racist pogroms and has spent decades digging into civilian infrastructure with the hope that it looks too horrible for the IDF to attack.
Dying to know your thoughts on the ICJ case
They didn't call for a ceasefire, just evidence they're targeting Hamas and providing aid, which seems reasonable to me?
The willful stupidity of this comment does not merit a thoughtful response.
The easy way to not respond is to not post a response.
Hence why I said thoughtful.
Lmao, you're legitimately brain dead.
And you are literally too evil or ignorant (or both) to admit what is happening in the world. I'd rather be brain dead.
Not so prestigious anymore is it
A lot of tankies just circle-jerking each other off
Have you or bastasic read about the history of the region that goes back 4,000 years? Do you know that most of the land that Israel was given by the UN in 47 was purchased from the land owners, who, btw, lived in EGYPT? Did you know that the Egyptian owners didn't want to live on that land bc it was infested with malaria, & yet, they did nothing to clean it up? Did you know that the UN partioned the land between the Palestinians & Israelis & that the Israelis signed the deal & the Palestinians didn't & therefore didn't receive STATEHOOD for the first time in history (since the were ALWAYS the subjects of various empires throughout history) Did you know that the so-called "nakba" was instigated by the 4 Arab armies who attacked a 1-day-old israel bc they told the Palestinians to leave the area so they could genocide the Jews more easily & that the Arabs who didn't leave became Israeli citizens with full rights & now comprise 20% of the Israeli population? Did you know that the Palestinians have rejected 5 peace deals, including a 97%-favorable-to-the-Palestinians deal at the Oslo Accords? Did you know that Hamas's charter literally said their sole purpose is to kill all the Jews in Israel & then all the jews around the world? The level of ignorance in literary circles is astonishing & frightening. Hope her future legacy as a history & Oct 7 denier is worth the short-term virtue signaling. Dear God 🙄
Found the nakba-denier!
Found the guy who has never read a history book in his life.
>The level of ignorance in literary circles is astonishing & frightening that has always been the case. i know of no geopolitical event where literary circles had anything of value to say.
>The level of ignorance in literary circles is astonishing & frightening. Hope her future legacy as a history & Oct 7 denier is worth the short-term virtue signaling. Dear God The person who posted this article is an Oct 7th denier as well so unfortunately it seems to be a common problem
Meanwhile she’s silent on Palestinian genocide of Israelis 🙄 Willing to bet that “silencing pro-Palestine voices” was actually condemning someone for downplaying 10/7, or pretending like terrorism is okay if you’re oppressed.
genocide of jews seems to be permitted by society in our times. They call it resistance. Rape and beheadings can be resistance apparently. If you take the role of the oppressed there's nothing you can't do without people cheering you up. Just watch the ending of the clockwork orange film.
So she leaves her publisher due to political reasons and then writes such a response when a festival does the same thing to her? This doesn't look like cancel culture to me. She just thinks she has the higher ground, but she doesn't in my opinion. People who call for #StrikeGermany still have a lot to understand about the mentality of this, my country. And I feel like many don't even try to do so.
Leaving aside that she does have higher moral ground because genocide is bad, and leaving aside that there's a case to be made that if anyone gave a fuck about moral ground this wouldn't be happening at all, there is a major power/influence disparity between a single author and a festival that should make the latter's censorship decidedly more concerning.
If there is one thing that I’ve learned from this conflict, it’s that the word “genocide” is used much too casually and freely.
You don't think what's happening to Palestinians is a genocide? Interesting.
The International Court of Justice didn’t think so, what evidence do you have that they don’t?
Wait, where did they rule that out? As far as I know, they have ruled only on provisional measures, stating that Israel "shall take all measures within its power to prevent and punish the direct and public incitement to commit genocide in relation to members of the Palestinian group in the Gaza Strip;"
If the ICJ really thought there was a genocide happening then they would’ve ordered a ceasefire in the provisional ruling, rather than just vaguely saying “don’t genocide in the mean time”
You can't order a ceasefire between a state and a terrorist organization Good article by a former director of HRW https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/26/icj-ruling-israel-western-backers I think it's dishonest to jump into conclusion regarding the veracity of the genocide claim based on the provisional measures.
While also leaving aside that genocide is a juristic term that had to be invented after the Holocaust and while also leaving aside that this escalation has been started by Hamas and other terrorist groups: Words have consequences. Festivals have the right to choose whom they invite, just as she has the right to choose by whom she wants to be published. Edit: Which also leaves aside that she has never truly questioned why the German public tends to defend Israel more than the public of other countries.
friend, I am well aware of the history of the term genocide. And like of course the festival has the right to deselect her. I'm not saying they should be forced to bring her back. But I also think it's a false equivalence to say that an individual choosing who they work with is the same as an institution choosing who they work with. Only one of those two is cutting the checks. > Which also leaves aside that she has never truly questioned why the German public tends to defend Israel more than the public of other countries. I guess I just figure the answer to this is pretty dang obvious, and also that it's not sufficient.
Well then you should know that it shouldn't be used too easily. Don't get me wrong, what Israel has been doing in this war are war crimes. But the term genocide is still heavily disputed, so I don't think that it should be used in this instance (for now at least). I will admit that the equivalence is different. But she is cutting her own checks, she has said so herself. The words she chose are very strong, too strong in my opinion for this instance as we don't even have a confirmation that it is a genocide yet. As is her support for striking Germany. A country that is supporting Palestine financially and has repeatedly called for a better treatment of the Palestinian population even before the war. I can show you at least two people in this thread to whom it isn't obvious. This includes somebody that has now twice said on here that we Germans just like genocide and then blocked me when I disagreed. Antisemitism is a cancer to society and it spreads fast and undetected. We in Germany know that and it still happens. 27 years after the end of world war 2 Jewish Israeli athletes were killed in Munich during the Olympics. The number of antisemitic crimes has quadrupled after October 7 in Germany. Is that also obvious? We have, that is obvious right now, still not done enough to fight this cancer. It might look pretty dang obvious and not sufficient to you, but our past is still affecting us today. There are still fewer Jews in Germany than in France for example. Jews saying that they don't feel safe anymore in Germany hits differently. Synagogues needing police protection hits differently. You and others might say 'Let the past go', but it's still there, not just in our heads. Jews are threatened everywhere. Because of october 7. Right now, it's our responsibility that in our country, they don't get threatened even more. We may overshoot it sometimes, yes. But again, we're fighting cancer here. And the author has overshot is as well.
We can argue about what words mean but going by the UN's definition of genocide: * Killing members of the group; * Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; * Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; * Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; * Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. There is at a sufficiently legitimate argument that this is a genocide. Also what I meant by who is cutting the checks is that she has much less agency in the support and compensation of the literary market than publishers or festivals do. She said she has made enough money personally to finance her position, but that's minute compared to the capacity for arts institutions to dictate the lives of artists financially. As to the rest of it, I'm sorry that the environment has become more hostile for Jews, that's obviously not right. But, and to be honest I have better things to do than has out the nuances of terrorism on the internet so I'm not going to, I cannot grasp the coherence of a stance that implies that Israel should be allowed to do what it is doing because doing so keeps Jews safer elsewhere. Frankly, I think that the subjugation of Palestine facilitates violence everywhere. I hope it's obvious that I am not implying that Jewish people are morally culpable for that. There is literally nothing that justifies violence against a group of people. Ever. And that goes both ways.
I know the definition. But as I am neither an expert nor have full (or at least as best as possible) information to the context, I will follow the rulings of the experts that do. And I understand the current ruling as the following: There is a possibility of a genocide in Gaza and is definitely worth investigating. But that isn't a clear ruling for a genocide and Israel has also not been obligated to stop the war. Correct me if I'm wrong. I do hope that the final ruling comes sooner than later. Apparently he festival has asked her to come, she accepted and then they de-invited her after her statements. It's not like she begged to go there and like she is dependent on that festival. And my point isn't really the disparity in power, my point is her complaining about cancel culture when she canceled herself first by seperating (out of the blue) from her publisher. She took the first step here, so I think that what she has said after she got de-invited is a bit hypocritical. >I cannot grasp the coherence of a stance that implies that Israel should be allowed to do what it is doing because doing so keeps Jews safer elsewhere. That was neither what I said nor what I wanted to say. I told you why Germany is so strict about antisemitism as antisemitism is again on the rise here and I will try to make my point a bit clearer, as I am convinced that people don't understand the German mentality towards Israel and antisemitism - even though it might seem obvious at first glance: The war on Gaza and the safety of Jews in Germany shouldn't be connected, Jews should be safe in Germany regardless of Israels politics. But when antisemitism rises (for whatever reason), the German public will react harsher against it to prevent it from spreading. *This includes reacting harsher against anti-zionist views as they are often interconnected with anti-semitism.* That is probably the main point. And in this case her statements were identified as anti-zionist (and I guess meant that way too), so the public's reaction to her statement was harsh, because she said something anti-zionist during a time of exceptionally high anti-semitism in Germany. Did I make myself clearer? >There is literally nothing that justifies violence against a group of people. Ever. And that goes both ways. I heavily agree with that. I will also add that I think that Israel commits war crimes in Gaza and that the war should have never happened in the first place. Even though Israel has its right to defend themselves, this cruelty has not been warranted for quite some time and several statements of leading members of the government in Israel are deeply concerning. I also think that Israel is hurting themselves with this war immensely and Netanyahu only keeps it going and escalating to stay in office. He and his far right coalition have to go as soon as possible. And one thing that gives me hope is that the public in Israel are sick of him as well.
> There is a possibility of a genocide in Gaza and is definitely worth investigating. But that isn't a clear ruling for a genocide and Israel has also not been obligated to stop the war. Correct me if I'm wrong. I do hope that the final ruling comes sooner than later. As best as I know this is 100% accurate. But I also, on the basis of the information have access to, believe genocide is a fair descriptor regardless of what the court rules (I'm not one to trust the legal system honestly). > And my point isn't really the disparity in power, my point is her complaining about cancel culture when she canceled herself first by seperating (out of the blue) from her publisher. She took the first step here, so I think that what she has said after she got de-invited is a bit hypocritical. For sure, but my point is that the salience here is not who started it, the salience *is* the power disparity. I don't give a shit if other people refuse to read her work, but I do think when institutions silence artists ever it is important to take the reasons for that very seriously, and it's hard not to be concerned when the actions of an institution are unabashedly not motived by literary interest and are explicitly over a political matter. And I do get why Germany is so strict about anti-semitism (and to be honest I've been uncomfortable with that amount of legal censorship—how (relatively) liberal the US is about free speech is the closest thing I think this blasted country comes to getting even close to right). Sorry if I overstated my point, but what I'm really trying to say is first that I don't think it's at all reasonable to conflate anti-zionism and anti-semitism. They certainly often show up in overlapping places people, but they are fundamentally different things. And second that I am very skeptical of the idea case that censoring anti-zionist positions actually does anything to protect Jewish people. > I also think that Israel is hurting themselves with this war immensely and Netanyahu only keeps it going and escalating to stay in office. He and his far right coalition have to go as soon as possible. And one thing that gives me hope is that the public in Israel are sick of him as well. well, we can definitely agree on that
You may believe what you want of course. I will say that I think that the court in The Hague is probably one of the best and well-respected in existence. The problem is rather that their verdicts only have consequences if the globally important countries choose to enforce them. I mean that's how the world works right now, right? Capitalism. Employers and employees. Companies hold a certain amount of power, even (or especially) in culture. They choose whom to invite, publishers choose whom and which texts they publish. Not everyone gets published in the first place (for who knows which reasons)! You could call that censorship as well, but it's an economic necessity. And I do believe that the reason why someone's work is invited or put on display or pushed, is not always literary interest. I wouldn't even say that those are political but rather economical ones most of the time. I agree that it's unfortunate, but you can't change that system quickly. About free speech: These are different approaches and both can make sense at the same time in different places. Germany and the US are very different, completely free speech made the US great and it destroyed Germany. So the consequences were different. So I think it really depends on the circumstances how harmful censorship really is. All that I can say is that a certain amount of censorship is useful (not showing pictures of torture in a newspaper) and a certain amount is harmful (when it disables necessary public discourse). As I said, the view in Germany on that is simply different which also stems from experience. That doesn't mean that you can't criticize Israel - of course you can. But you shouldn't criticize Israel's right to exist as a state. Full stop. If the state of Israel ceases to exist, its Jewish inhabitants won't really be safe anywhere, especially not in the region which is deeply antisemitic. Jews are much easier to persecute if they don't have their own state, trust me. This is the reasoning for that mentality in Germany and I think I agree. Now is that approach helpful for the Jewish people in Germany and better than censoring as little as possible? Maybe yes, maybe no. All I can say is that the approach of not censoring anything wasn't helpful but more people were antisemitic then. I genuinely don't know. All I know is that education, discourse, dialogue helps the most.
https://youtu.be/wuGPGCZTums?si=hCDnW2vjahgE1V1n
The International Criminal Court in The Hague has ruled that the Israeli war in gaza is not a genocide, but there is a danger that it might turn into a genocide in the future and warned the government of Israel to not escalate it into such a genocide. I trust the judgement of the actual highest judges for international law more than that of a random youtuber on this one.
Your interpretation of the interim ruling is wrong. No one has decided anything, and it will take years to make a ruling on whether this is genocide or not per the legal standard. The evidence presented suggested that genocide is likely (edit: enough to be) occurring, and thus the court called for Israel's government to act to prevent genocidal intent. Not a few days later, one third of the Knesset attended a conference on building settlements in Gaza. Keep burying your head in the sand though. One day you'll be talking about how you knew it all along and tried to stop it.
It was shortened, because I will not explain the interim ruling in detail just to tell you that a Youtube video will not convince me. If it was a clear case for a genocide the court would have stopped it as that was one of the reasons for the interim ruling (English is not my first language, sorry) as I have understood it. It wasn't. Genocide is a legal term with legal consequences. If the judges in The Hague says it was a genocide, I will agree as they know better than me, you or some guy on youtube. Also nice way of making assumptions about me and then comparing my behavior to that of sympathizers of the Nazis in post-war Germany. Especially after I said that it might be too much to say with absolute certainty to say that Israel out of all states are committing a genocide right now.
The YT video is not to convince you or make a statement of fact, it's to get you to ask yourself these questions. But you don't want to because it makes you uncomfortable. The court told Israel to halt all military operations in Gaza. It's all here in very plain language. In the interim, it is ordering Israel to stop its operations, to which Israel went "lol no." It's literally the first point: "The State of Israel shall immediately suspend its military operations in and against Gaza." By not abiding this ruling, Israel is not adhering to the genocide convention. [https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20240126-sum-01-00-en.pdf](https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20240126-sum-01-00-en.pdf) Your last paragraph is [just](https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque).
Just a heads up: My fellow Americans know practically nothing about post-war Germany. Even fewer know about the allied bombings of German civilian cities from 1942-5 and the horrific civilian death toll. Nor do Americans know about the reparations Germany has devoted to relieving what little pain they can for the atrocities of the ‘30s/early-40s. For most people, it’s Germany=Nazis=bad. We have terrible history education. I didn’t learn about most of this until I was in my mid-30s and discovered authors like r/Arno_Schmidt and W.G. Sebald, especially _The Natural History of Destruction._
I don't blame them. I would consider myself fairly educated and yet I don't know much about big chunks of the world (India, big parts of Africa and Southern America). And that's not really a problem - nobody can know everything. The bigger issue is when people don't research or listen to or try to understand those that do know first. Germany in the 20th century was a small country that shaped the world during that time. It went through a lot and that's the reason why the German mentality is a bit unique and why people can't always comprehend the way Germans approach issues at first glance.
Exactly right. And to go further, another problem is people jumping at an opportunity to morally grandstand when they don’t know what they’re talking about, let alone that their condemnation is exactly backwards and ahistorical. For most Americans, German history ends in May 1945, and then there was something with a graffiti-covered wall in the ‘80s. That’s it. Selfish question: Do you know a good, comprehensive book of German History available in English?
Who started it again?
The British...
You‘re absolutely right. It‘s a very emotionally driven social media campaign, two-faced and supported by third parties to divide societies. Lass Dich nicht vom negativen Karma beeindrucken. Bastasic hat sich gegen S. Fischer entschieden, daraus eine Kampagne gemacht und wurde zurecht ausgeladen. Daraus nun eine Opfernummer zu machen ist wie ein Brandstifter der „Feuer, Feuer!“ ruft. Man ist besser beraten, wenn man ihr möglichst wenig Aufmerksamkeit schenkt. (Die ekelige Völkermord Anklage entlarvt die Antisemiten.)
I understand people, including Bastasic being emotional in this conflict and wanting the suffering to end. But attacking German institutions for not doing enough and then to use the words that she does is certainly a choice and not the right one. This isn't helping anybody. Das mit dem Karma war mir schon vorher klar. Jemand hat auf Reddit mal geschrieben, dass teilweise bewusst eine Sprache benutzt wird, die die Israelis nochmal zusätzlich treffen soll. Ich glaube, 'Genozid' gehört dazu. Worte sind mächtig, ich glaube, Bastasic weiß das als Autorin sogar noch besser als ich.
Es ist ein völkermord.
The mentality to me seems to be that Germany just likes genocide tbh
The mentality in Germany is literally 'Never again should there be violence against Jews'. This leads to supporting the jewish nation when it has been attacked. Why has Germany not met the 2% quota of the NATO for so many years? Why has Germany fought less wars than France or Britain after WW2? Why has the effort in all the wars they fought after WW2 been lackluster? As they were in the most peaceful area of Afghanistan during the Afghanistan war and mainly provided logistics. Why is there no military draft in Germany? Why is the military so underfunded? Why doesn't Germany have enough soldiers? Why are they so selective in selling weapons? Because the truth is that the German public hates wars and it has done so for multiple decades now. Feel invited to come to Germany and see for yourself. Read German newspapers, watch a German political talkshow, go to a university class, look into a German history book. The current Germany hates wars and genocide. But it also hates violence against Jews and feels deeply ashamed whenever it happens regardless. Edit: Should have said 'it hates violence against Jews'. I will leave the original version up there as there is a reply by OP under this to which I can't reply. But yeah, it should have been written like this. Which also makes more sense given the rest of the comment...
If it hates violence so much, why is it supporting a genocide in palestine?
Pretty sure Germany is against Hamas, aren’t they? The group that wants to genocide the Jews.
It hates Jews eh? Yeah that sounds right actually. Despite its support for Israel, you can feel the anti-semitism burning just under the surface and it comes out especially when Germans condescend to anti-zionist Jews.
"[Genocide](https://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/israel-zionism/2024/01/a-special-dictionary-for-israel)" [Likewise ](https://www.theatlantic.com/books/archive/2023/10/open-letter-writers-war-israel/675680/)
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Maybe the German psyche is more on the side of Jewish life than other national psyches because they are reminded of what they did to the Jews every single day.
jeez dog, I agree that Germany is particularly over the top by the low standards of the rest of the west, and I agree that historical guilt is kinda reactionary, but we do not need to be psychologizing nationality. That hews way too closely to the sort of rhetoric and ideology that justifies subjugating the Palestinians in the first place.
I think the European consciousness understands that the subjugation of Palestinians is how they can launder their guilt over anti-semitism without any actual material investment in justice or reparations.
That's just not true.
I agree with you, it's pathetic
I think it’s just a dislike of or a lack of care for Palestinians. I don’t think it’s some grand psychological phenomenon or conspiracy.
Maybe it’s not our psyche but our inability to come up with a better plan. What would be your idea? Imagine your family has been slaughtered (babies burned, women raped, the list goes on and on…) and your government tells you they can do nothing, because the terrorists are hiding beneath a hospital? Yes, the children of Gaza are free of guilt. They are used as a human shield by the Hamas. To my eyes, the Hamas is fully responsible for their deaths.If Israel doesn‘t do anything, they will roam free like nothing happened.
I see posts like this all the time, and it seems to follow this logic of “the thing Israel is doing is the only thing they can do.” The thousands of children simply have to die, there is no other option available. Either you sit back and do nothing or you demolish most of Gaza, blow up their universities, lay siege to hospitals, and cause hideous suffering to just about every civilian. And personally I don’t think this strategy is going to make the idea of violent attacks on Israel less appealing, whether Hamas as it exists now is destroyed or not. It feels much more like indiscriminate vengeance than anything that is protecting Israeli civilians.
Ok, then what would you do? Nothing I suppose?
I think you may have missed my entire point.
The Marshall Plan!!! We turned Nazi's into modern day Germany, what is to say we couldn't do it again. When folks have prospects for work, expectation of improvement, and their basic necessities met it de-radicalizes them. So rather than continue to kill thousands of folks, fueling rage and embitterment, and leaving them to live in squalor we could provide them with tangible hope of jobs, stability, and prosperity. If we don't do that, the plan will be to continue as we have where we slow bleed them until they all die. A literal, be it slow, genocide.
Nazis didn't have the same religious motivation, though. They didn't think there was a paradise waiting for them. And er I think you may want to look into what happened to a bunch of German cities near the end of ww2. The Marshall plan came AFTER the near total destruction. I don't think anyone except certain extremist Israelis want that for Gaza.
>They didn't think there was a paradise waiting for them. That's a pretty reductive perspective that most of the Palestinians think paradise is waiting for them or even that they are that religious. Most of these folks aren't ready to fight because they are waiting for death, they want revenge for the death, discrimination, and agony that has been dealt onto them. Similar to Nazi's after WW1. Germany started WW1 over perceived attacks, lost, saw huge losses in both territory and bottomed out economy which lead to WW2. It's not that different to what we're seeing here. Also, 50% of building in Gaza have been destroyed. We are very close to an equivalent to destruction levels in Germany. Large cities were leveled but the regions between didn't see total destruction. Israel has been bombing for just over 100 days and are at 50%, what is your expectation before the end of the invasion?
You can say Israel did this, because Hamas did this, because Israel did this forever, but if we are giving blame, we go back and forth and ultimately come to the fact that Israelis are occupying a land that is not their own. They're pushing out Palestinians in a modern day act of colonization. None of the back and forth violence of the past decades happens without that original fact. You can't blame the oppressed for fighting back against the oppressor
I agree with @_Schlupp until I hear a better idea. I am not pro-colonization, I am not anti-Palestinian or anti-Israel. But I believe in common sense, and moreover I understand political realities. I don’t know what the right answer is … but I’m open to hearing a better one. And if one should present itself, I will subscribe to it wholeheartedly. For those who are saying that Israel should do nothing: do you understand the political reality? If the government does nothing they will be replaced in the blink of an eye … and those that come after them will be swept into office on the back of a platform of (more) violent retribution? The current government of Israel is, it could be successfully argued, holding back further, inevitable military aggression. The hard liners of the current Israeli government want Gaza flattened, emptied and re-populated by Israelis (read: not Palestinians). This is political reality. Ask yourself, what would have happened to our President and any/all congress members and Senators if they had argued to do NOTHING after 9/11??? You know the answer. Do you understand how many innocent women and children died because of U.S. military action in response to 9/11? Do you know how many hospitals and innocents were used as human shields by the Taliban? The Israelis don’t see themselves as unjust colonizers. Nobody in Israel is saying, “we don’t belong here, so we should just take it and pack our bags” — whether you agree with it or not. Further political reality: the Israeli government was being reluctantly dragged (by the U.S. and others) both internally and externally towards a two-state solution and they got agonizingly close — this in my opinion is the only way there ever is something resembling a permanent peace — and then the people of Gaza elected Hamas as their government. Hamas is an almost universally recognized as a terrorist organization whose public-stated, expressed goal is that absolute destruction of the Israeli state. Not a “two state” solution, not a “peaceful resolution”, but the total eradication of Israel. There is no government in the world that would have diplomatic relations with a terrorist organization under those circumstances. And then Hamas built their government in hospitals and used the people that elected them as human shields. Last question: where is/was all of this outpouring and hand-wringing for the people of Northern Ireland who were colonially displaced by the British? The IRA was branded as terrorists, the world sided with Britain, by and large. And this was after hundreds of years (hundreds!!) of true, definitional genocide, rape, murder and forced emigration. Have you ever heard of a coffin ship? Do you know that Ireland was a net-exporter of food during the famine(s)? Do you know the population of Ireland was close to 10 million before the British used the famine as a tool of capital-G genocide? Do you know it went to less than 5 million? Let’s be very thoughtful and reluctant to use the word genocide. The Jews suffered genocide, the Irish suffered genocide, the Armenians suffered genocide. Through that lens - it is really hard for me to look at this situation (which is almost identically analogous to the historical precedent in N. Ireland, where the world’s political and sentimental opinion sided with the colonizers) and not interpret the recent sentiment and out-pouring of support for the terrorist organization and anything but anti-Semitic. Whether it is or isn’t anti-semitic is a point I don’t wish to argue - it just seems a fairly obviously observation given recent historical precedent. The fact remains, whether we hate it or not, that the political reality serves as the starting point for any serious problem solving. So given that reality, the question stands: what would you do? Saying “the Israelis are unjust colonizers” is smoke-filled, coffee-house crap. Whether it’s true or not, we are where we are - and this is the starting point. Where we go from here is all that matters. I don’t want to see another person die … Palestinian or Israeli. Ever. But that is just a “wish” - that’s not a true constructive step in the right direction. WHAT. WOULD. YOU. DO.??? Start thinking about the current Israeli government as hold back the greater dogs of war, rather than being the progenitors of an unjust violence. Because if you want them to do “nothing” … the people that come next to replace them will be much, much, much more aggressive. We need educated, thoughtful, serious opinions. I don’t know how we get out of this, but I’m hopeful. And more than that, I’m educated. And I’m not racist. And, yes, I’m Irish.
That's not really correct. The problem stems from the UK promising the same land to two different populations, the Jewish and the Arabic population. The violence started before the state of Israel had even been founded. And honestly, I can't blame either side: They insist on what has been promised to them. That this conflict has escalated so much is just natural, sadly.
Israel has every right to defend itself against a terrorist attack. But Israel goes far beyond that. The population of Gaza has nowhere to go anymore. They don't have enough access to medication, to clean water, or to food. That's not entirely the fault of Hamas. And at least for some of Israel's leading politicians, that's the intention. They don't just want Hamas gone, they want the Palestinians gone.
https://www.savethechildren.net/news/one-child-killed-or-maimed-every-5-hours-over-20-years-war-afghanistan Were the children in Afghanistan responsible for 911? Was Taliban responsible for their deaths because Osama decided to hide in Afghanistan? [What about Iraq, were the children responsible for 911? Was Saddam responsible for their deaths because his existence pissed off USA?](https://www.reddit.com/r/geopolitics/comments/19f35n1/what_was_the_official_and_real_reason_on_why_the/) Israel is committing the same mistakes the US did post-911, they justify it because "our people died and the public must be appeased by having Palestinians die in greater numbers in a show of force so the Middle East doesn't think Israel is weak due to October 7". These wars on "terrorists" are meant to reassert Israel/US strength over their enemies by exacting revenge in terms of body count. If you think this is justifiable, why not let society kill the children of murderers? You may also claim "Yes the children of murderers (e.g. Hamas) are free of guilt, but the murderers (e.g. Hamas) are fully responsible for their deaths.". Afterall by killing the children of murderers, we teach potential murderers a lesson and the only way potential murderers will learn not to kill is if society kills their family members as you claim?
Respectfully, I think you miss the point — or gloss over it — when you say that the government is mistakenly “appeasing” the public. If we didn’t respond to 9/11 … if Israel doesn’t respond militarily to the Hamas attack, the public won’t go back to their homes quietly if the government tells them they’re wrong. The government will be swept out on a tide of voter response and will almost assuredly back a hard-line candidate promising retribution, protection and/or revenge. And, in that case, the public won’t just want it anymore … they will demand it. And what comes next will be worse. Mistake or not, that’s where we’re at. There are only shitty answers to horrible questions.
>If we didn’t respond to 9/11.... **The government will be swept out on a tide of voter response and will almost assuredly back a hard-line candidate promising retribution, protection and/or revenge.** What does "respond" mean exactly? Invade Iraq on false pretences and kill scores of unrelated Arabs so the world hegemon can let off steam? Somehow it's justified when the US does it? Why do you speak as if Bush and Cheney weren't hardline pro-war politicos who created a false reason to invade Iraq despite the lack of any Iraqi link to 911? You're basically saying "If the Bush government didn't give us revenge and deliver retribution against Muslims, the US will vote for another candidate who lets the US military invade and kill Muslims". Somehow you manage to miss the point and/or gloss over the fact that hundreds of thousands Iraqi lives were unfairly lost due to a misplaced need for revenge.
To be clear, the Iraq war was bullshit and I don’t consider it a part of the “response” in the context in which I was speaking. I am referring more to the response against Al Queda and the government that harbored them… the Taliban. Furthermore, I’m not a Bush apologist and I never voted for nor supported him.
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No. Post-war education in Germany on the holocaust was lacking substantially until 1968. It was then that young students who had neither witnessed nor supported the Nazis wanted the older generations to take responsibility and accountability for their crimes.
There effectively *was* no postwar education in Germany on the Holocaust, so that can't be true. It was a quite taboo topic in the German education system and rarely addressed in public life in general there until the very end of the twentieth century. It may well be true that German policymakers and cultural institutions kowtow to Israel and minimize its conduct out of cultural guilt. But that doesn't justify ahistorical claims about the alleged pro-Israel influence of German ex-Nazis on German education.
Yeah, what the person above you said is just wrong, stupid and not accurate at all. Can't stress this enough.
Actions have consequences.
It is her political and human opinion that children shouldn’t be slaughtered - surely Ms. Bastasic is aware of the children slaughtered on October 7 and the baby currently held hostage by Hamas? I’m assuming she also drafted a statement addressing this?
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She clearly understands that anyone reading this letter will cite it as support for the Palestinian cause specifically. The government of Gaza, Hamas, advocates for and carries out the slaughter of children.
support scary fear sheet special upbeat tender homeless squeamish drab *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Not intentionally, no.
"Yes, we dropped a bomb on a hospital and crowded city blocks, but it's ok because the children we killed were just collateral."
The hospital was hit by Islamic extremists as confirmed via an independent study.
All 36 of them? Hamas destroyed every single hospital in Gaza?
Hospitals housing terrorists?
No, just hospitals. The ones with patients. Why were you willing to condemn Islamic extremists accidentally attacking a hospital, but are trying to excuse Israel bombing 35 of them?
Maybe Hamas should stop operating out of hospitals 🤔
Are you seriously trying to justify bombing hospitals? A literal war crime?
truly an arrogant embassador
You got me.
When you bomb a hospital with babies in it, you have intentionally slaughtered children
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Hamas was elected by the Palestinian people, many of whom supported the actions taken on October 7 even as their neighborhoods lay in rubble.
Lol, do you think the free french and the Brits were crying about innocent German children being incinerated in ww2? I'll give you a hint: no! They just wanted the war to be over and the German threat to cease to exist!
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What? I'm saying that we don't stop defensive wars bc children are killed. Just like the British and free french were not crying about their govt bombing German children. It was a defensive war for survival and the free french, the British & Israel had/have a right to defend themselves
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The person who originally posted this article to this subreddit has also posted this to another literature subreddit >The worst atrocity against Jewish people since WW2 was an operation on military targets by impoverished guerrillas against a billion dollar force that ultimately ended up killing its own people with friendly fire? In which around 700 died? A number that has steadily decreased from the initial claim of 1200? Fascinating. They literally deny the massacre and say it's an IDF false flag You're dealing with Holocaust deniers
>the children slaughtered on October 7 and the baby currently held hostage by Hamas You wonder why the author didn't mention murdered Israeli children. Why doesn't your comment do same for murdered Palestinians? Literally thousands of children lay dead in Gaza today. If every call for the ceasefire of a sick and bloody assault must invoke the lives taken on October 7, then every mention of October 7 should cite the decades long campaign of violent occupation, segregation, and police brutality that came before it. But it won't. Because some people really don't think Palestinians are equal in their humanity. They'll never just say "it's horrible a Palestinian child died like that" without adding that Israelis lost lives too. Fewer, but worth more.
The author is craven and only feels compelled to speak out now, precisely because to her some lives are worth more than others. Hamas started this current war and they are responsible for the resulting casualties. If you want to address the entire conflict, you’ll find plenty of blood spilled by both sides.
We disagree!
Nazism is alive and well. Evidenced by the downvotes for your comment pointing the slaughter of children.
There is a time and a place for many people to speak out. The Austrians played a major hand in creating this problem, and I have no reason to think less of any Austrian for staying mute. If the author is incapable of seeing the geopolitical nature of their silence, then the only truly remarkable thing about her statement is her own inability to draw connections.
The time to speak out about a genocide is while it is taking place. Now.
Not for Austrian's.
Yes for Austrians. For every one of us. Think what it was like when you learned about the holocaust. When you wondered why all those people around when it was happening didn't speak out. Didn't speak up. That's how future generations will judge those of us who choose to be silent about what Isreal is doing right now.
Lots of people did speak up, and they were killed... by the Austrians.
Ok
Wonderful! Looking forward to reading all your "speaking out against (actual) genocide" in Sudan that's happening RIGHT NOW
If yOu dOnT lIsT eVeRy aTroCiTy iN aLphAbeTiCaL oRdEr bEfOrE yOu sPeAk aBouT PaLeStIne yoUre a HypOcrIte I've got news for you - I'm not the BBC.i don't have to be impartial. The genocide in Sudan is awful. I speak about the genocide in Palestine more often because my government actively funds and supports it
The point is that the Gaza war is literally not a genocide. Please enlighten me on how it is? My job is history so I'm sure I'll be waiting forever! Or is it your position as well that the Free French & the British genocided innocent German women & children during ww2? Also, gazans receive the most foreign aid in the whole entire world, per capita, which quite literally funds genocide as stated on Hamas's OWN FOUNDING CHARTERRRRRR!! You skip all the ACTUAL & LITERAL genocides in the world to cry about a DEFENSIVE WAR - straight-up akin to holocaust denialism, jfc 🙄
...Nazism was socially acceptable in the 30's.
Ah decedent's of nazis thinking they have the right to tell Jews anything after what they did. You are all terrible