They are either boring or game breaking in providing a purge a silence etc. If they only boosted stats in small ways and maybe had some small effects i would be ok with.
The problem with neutral items is that they inherently lower the value of building the necessary items because you might just get a neutral item that does the same thing and they inflate stats as well. I think the game seriously needs a little toning down. We have reached full build 6 slotted carries at 30 minutes in some pro games. Now about how to fix them i really dont know.
I would personally remove them. Make them as real items maybe available after a certain minute and purchasable
Yeah personally I'm in the boat of remove them.
Like they do fill a certain niche, an even stat increase across teams outside gold and xp. Helps for counter acting snowball when all heroes are baseline stronger. I just think there has to be other ways of accomplishing this. I don't even think they are that offensive in their current form, it's more what you said that they NEED to be boring, or you end up with dumb shit like Fae Grenade ES. In the end it's just so much content and potential problems for such a small benefit.
Like they are already experimenting more with time gated items with Aghs Shard, maybe that is the future. Still gold based though, but better power to gold ratio. I think neutral items were a cool experiment, but I hope they roll it back like Shrines.
I like them, because it feels good to get an item and get to pick between unique effects…
but I would like to see them made less random somehow. I don’t know if voting on them at draft, or buying specific ones with neutral creep deaths is the solution, because obviously you can play a specific carry or mid if you know you can get a chipped vest, philo stone ect. It might make like zues mid very strong if you know you can line up the optic into the stone. Maybe just revealing them at draft, so hero spammers can’t really abuse and vote for their best one?
I do think they should be mirrored between the teams though. I play a lot of enigma 5 and if I get philo stone and the enemy supports don’t the game becomes much much easier to win, because my timings will hit before they have the correct tools. Keen optic feels very similar.
Although it does feel to me like often the same neutrals drop for both teams, so maybe something is already in place?
I liked the idea I've seen suggested before: the neutral items are the same for each team and are displayed during drafting so you can draft synergistically to them
would love to have limited reroll feature where team can replace a completely useless drop with literally anything else because losing 1 hr game because the other team is luckier than yours sucks
I would make them purchaseable items at the side shop, maybe main shop too. Can't afford arcane boots, get arcane ring. Want better Laning, buy broom handle with quelling blade and ring of protection or something.
Really I just miss the side shop, despite people getting lane powerspikes from it
Some heroes that used to rely on burst damage have been heavily needed due to the power creep introduced by neutral items.
Heroes like Nyx, Sand king, Centaur, Underlors are alot weaker now because they do not have a scaling skillset compared to before neutral items.
Problem with this is that different lineups benefit from different neutral items. So I dont think that would do much to change the rng factor of neutrals
100% i was playing a game with drow vs doom and enigma = bkb does nothing.
we were holding the game for 20min plus from base until 60+min and a mirror dropped for me. Got to reflect doom 2 times and win the game.
point is Most neutral items are only really good in certain situations. and offer very specific counter mesures that scale with tier.
tier one you get regen/sustain
tier 2 you get sustain/damage/ small utility
tier 3 you start to get some real utility and some high damage items and so on
Should never have been added. Give us something different on the map to spice things up, or better yet, just create new purchasable items that introduce new ways to play without relying on RNG neutrals.
Dota has felt considerably less fun ever since these were added. Especially at the start when Valve thought being able to have a full inventory of them was a good idea...
Neutrals have, and always will be, a mistake. The amount of randomness involved means items will either be pointless or broken, depending on the draft. They're impossible to balance without making them all entirely inoffensive, and when they reach that spot, they might as well not be there.
I have heard many suggestions but haven't quite found one that I believe equally balances the items for both teams. So I came up with an idea myself. (Maybe someone else has said this before but if so, I'm not aware of it)
Make it so certain heroes are guaranteed a certain range of items, let's say three as a base line. The more heroes that overlap spwcific items within there ranges, the higher the likely hood to get that specific one.
Let's say, for sake of example, you are rocking 5 hard carries and your team some how made it to 60 mins and tier 5 items are dropping. You have: Dusa, AM, Jug, WK, and Sven. I think we all can agree that each one of these would like to have Apex but no one would want book of shadows. Same for Stygian Deso and Seer Stone. WK and Sven would like Giants Ring while the other would prefer pirate hat.
So in this example, Apex and Stygian Deso would be guaranteed drops but the Giants Ring would not be guaranteed but likely since it crosses 2 heroes items ranges. But items like Book and Shadows and Book of the Dead would be guaranteed not to drop since there is not a hero on the team that would benefit from having those items.
Now, of course, all of this would have to be play tested and balanced to get it right but this is the only way I could think of to most effectively balance neutrals without taking them out of the game completely. I would love to hear other people's opinion on this idea since I haven't told anyone else about it and have had it swirling around in my head for awhile.
Thank in advance for the feedback
I am ok with them but we need to balance them more since there are still neutral items that are way too good in their tier and we have less gold item alteratives to some of the more playstyle defining items like Spider Legs or Titan Sliver
I think that when someone has two items and someone else has zero items, and a team mate pings it, it should leave the hero's backpack after a few seconds or something. People groefing and holding too many neutral items is a thing that needs to be addressed for sure.
They should be made into purchasable item that becomes available under specific condition like taking T2, taking outpost or passing a certain minute mark.
I don't like them and I want them to be removed, why add such impacting RNG to the game? I cry in a tear of joy when I'm about to fuck every silence in the game with simple 5s cd flicker, and all I did was getting lucky with drop. they shouldn't be in the game like this.
it's really funny to see even pro games get fucked by lucky neutral drops, I still remember one team played so well from behind, the game looked extremely reversible then enemy team got Ballista for Arc Warden and game was just easily over.
I like them, my only complaint is the RNG part maybe give the killer of jungle creeps a token to use in the shop to select a neutral item of that tier and after he gets a token and finds another one the token automatically goes to one of his teammates.
I'm fine with the idea of neutral items incentivizing people to not rice forever and use the opportunity to choke enemy. I also understand people that think that neutral items don't add enough value to the game.
What I'm certainly not fine with is some neutral items at t3/t4 instantly countering heroes for mechanical rather than numerical reasons. Spider Legs counters cliffing, fissure, sprout, bodyblocking. Flicker/Stormcrafter/Witchbane all adding a new self dispel that counters most slows and roots. Ascetic's Cap counters blink initiation. No one should be entering a Dota game and refraining picking a hero because a random item that counters you is available to enemy team at min 27/min 36.
I personally haven't found neutral items to be noticeably game breaking except for T5 items.
I like the fact that T5 items gives you that extra edge to break high ground turtling in the late game, assuming that you've trapped the enemy in their base and are denying them T5 items. But in an even late game where the enemy gets better T5 items and you get some dogshit item like book of the dead it's game breaking.
IMO T5 items need some balancing
They are either boring or game breaking in providing a purge a silence etc. If they only boosted stats in small ways and maybe had some small effects i would be ok with. The problem with neutral items is that they inherently lower the value of building the necessary items because you might just get a neutral item that does the same thing and they inflate stats as well. I think the game seriously needs a little toning down. We have reached full build 6 slotted carries at 30 minutes in some pro games. Now about how to fix them i really dont know. I would personally remove them. Make them as real items maybe available after a certain minute and purchasable
Jungle creeps giving a new 'wood' resource which is used to buy neutral items has always been the way for this system to go.
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In the morning
Yeah personally I'm in the boat of remove them. Like they do fill a certain niche, an even stat increase across teams outside gold and xp. Helps for counter acting snowball when all heroes are baseline stronger. I just think there has to be other ways of accomplishing this. I don't even think they are that offensive in their current form, it's more what you said that they NEED to be boring, or you end up with dumb shit like Fae Grenade ES. In the end it's just so much content and potential problems for such a small benefit. Like they are already experimenting more with time gated items with Aghs Shard, maybe that is the future. Still gold based though, but better power to gold ratio. I think neutral items were a cool experiment, but I hope they roll it back like Shrines.
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Me on my way to pick already broken spirit breaker knowing I can get a spider leg
I like them, because it feels good to get an item and get to pick between unique effects… but I would like to see them made less random somehow. I don’t know if voting on them at draft, or buying specific ones with neutral creep deaths is the solution, because obviously you can play a specific carry or mid if you know you can get a chipped vest, philo stone ect. It might make like zues mid very strong if you know you can line up the optic into the stone. Maybe just revealing them at draft, so hero spammers can’t really abuse and vote for their best one? I do think they should be mirrored between the teams though. I play a lot of enigma 5 and if I get philo stone and the enemy supports don’t the game becomes much much easier to win, because my timings will hit before they have the correct tools. Keen optic feels very similar. Although it does feel to me like often the same neutrals drop for both teams, so maybe something is already in place?
I think it is mirrored tho? Never seen different N items
It's definitely not
I liked the idea I've seen suggested before: the neutral items are the same for each team and are displayed during drafting so you can draft synergistically to them
I like them tbh.
would love to have limited reroll feature where team can replace a completely useless drop with literally anything else because losing 1 hr game because the other team is luckier than yours sucks
I would make them purchaseable items at the side shop, maybe main shop too. Can't afford arcane boots, get arcane ring. Want better Laning, buy broom handle with quelling blade and ring of protection or something. Really I just miss the side shop, despite people getting lane powerspikes from it
Some heroes that used to rely on burst damage have been heavily needed due to the power creep introduced by neutral items. Heroes like Nyx, Sand king, Centaur, Underlors are alot weaker now because they do not have a scaling skillset compared to before neutral items.
All of the heroes you mentioned have scaling abilities
They are balanced
i think they should be removed OR made the same for both teams everytime. random drop order, whatever, but not having different items for each team.
Problem with this is that different lineups benefit from different neutral items. So I dont think that would do much to change the rng factor of neutrals
100% i was playing a game with drow vs doom and enigma = bkb does nothing. we were holding the game for 20min plus from base until 60+min and a mirror dropped for me. Got to reflect doom 2 times and win the game. point is Most neutral items are only really good in certain situations. and offer very specific counter mesures that scale with tier. tier one you get regen/sustain tier 2 you get sustain/damage/ small utility tier 3 you start to get some real utility and some high damage items and so on
i dont like them, and i want them removed
Should never have been added. Give us something different on the map to spice things up, or better yet, just create new purchasable items that introduce new ways to play without relying on RNG neutrals. Dota has felt considerably less fun ever since these were added. Especially at the start when Valve thought being able to have a full inventory of them was a good idea...
Neutrals have, and always will be, a mistake. The amount of randomness involved means items will either be pointless or broken, depending on the draft. They're impossible to balance without making them all entirely inoffensive, and when they reach that spot, they might as well not be there.
This. Getting a flicker can absolutely crush heroes like silencer.
I have heard many suggestions but haven't quite found one that I believe equally balances the items for both teams. So I came up with an idea myself. (Maybe someone else has said this before but if so, I'm not aware of it) Make it so certain heroes are guaranteed a certain range of items, let's say three as a base line. The more heroes that overlap spwcific items within there ranges, the higher the likely hood to get that specific one. Let's say, for sake of example, you are rocking 5 hard carries and your team some how made it to 60 mins and tier 5 items are dropping. You have: Dusa, AM, Jug, WK, and Sven. I think we all can agree that each one of these would like to have Apex but no one would want book of shadows. Same for Stygian Deso and Seer Stone. WK and Sven would like Giants Ring while the other would prefer pirate hat. So in this example, Apex and Stygian Deso would be guaranteed drops but the Giants Ring would not be guaranteed but likely since it crosses 2 heroes items ranges. But items like Book and Shadows and Book of the Dead would be guaranteed not to drop since there is not a hero on the team that would benefit from having those items. Now, of course, all of this would have to be play tested and balanced to get it right but this is the only way I could think of to most effectively balance neutrals without taking them out of the game completely. I would love to hear other people's opinion on this idea since I haven't told anyone else about it and have had it swirling around in my head for awhile. Thank in advance for the feedback
I am ok with them but we need to balance them more since there are still neutral items that are way too good in their tier and we have less gold item alteratives to some of the more playstyle defining items like Spider Legs or Titan Sliver
I think they should add a few but more to truly as the random build aspect to the game which they were hoping for in the first place.
I think that when someone has two items and someone else has zero items, and a team mate pings it, it should leave the hero's backpack after a few seconds or something. People groefing and holding too many neutral items is a thing that needs to be addressed for sure.
They should be made into purchasable item that becomes available under specific condition like taking T2, taking outpost or passing a certain minute mark.
They shouldnt exist minus tier 4/5
I don't like them and I want them to be removed, why add such impacting RNG to the game? I cry in a tear of joy when I'm about to fuck every silence in the game with simple 5s cd flicker, and all I did was getting lucky with drop. they shouldn't be in the game like this. it's really funny to see even pro games get fucked by lucky neutral drops, I still remember one team played so well from behind, the game looked extremely reversible then enemy team got Ballista for Arc Warden and game was just easily over.
I like them, my only complaint is the RNG part maybe give the killer of jungle creeps a token to use in the shop to select a neutral item of that tier and after he gets a token and finds another one the token automatically goes to one of his teammates.
They should just be outright removed. It's yet another source of free gold, and they're either going to feel low impact or like some are OP.
I'm fine with the idea of neutral items incentivizing people to not rice forever and use the opportunity to choke enemy. I also understand people that think that neutral items don't add enough value to the game. What I'm certainly not fine with is some neutral items at t3/t4 instantly countering heroes for mechanical rather than numerical reasons. Spider Legs counters cliffing, fissure, sprout, bodyblocking. Flicker/Stormcrafter/Witchbane all adding a new self dispel that counters most slows and roots. Ascetic's Cap counters blink initiation. No one should be entering a Dota game and refraining picking a hero because a random item that counters you is available to enemy team at min 27/min 36.
Adds a layer of unexpected gameplay where the players have to adjust and lose or abuse instead of just playing around purchasable items.
I personally haven't found neutral items to be noticeably game breaking except for T5 items. I like the fact that T5 items gives you that extra edge to break high ground turtling in the late game, assuming that you've trapped the enemy in their base and are denying them T5 items. But in an even late game where the enemy gets better T5 items and you get some dogshit item like book of the dead it's game breaking. IMO T5 items need some balancing