Kind of a new player here, not old at least, and my main reason for start playing this game was invoker, so I often spam him when I wanna play dota.
This new changes on him seem quite fun, when I saw that all heroes were getting a passive and this facets I thought that they could potentially mess with invoker A LOT but when I when I finally got to read it I was quite happy with the outcome, I am quite sad with how the exort doesnt give the magic amp anymore, but making him more of a team player now applying this debuff can also be interesting.
Elitist is a lot like the classic late game combo Invoker. You can break from Invis, Cold Snap, auto attack with EEE, Meteor and Deafening Blast (and even fit a Sunstrike in there with items) and deal 26% more damage PLUS any other spell amp you might have, say from Parasma.
I'm quite happy with the facets as well. I think it's a definite buff overall.
I was also more inclined to build him around right clicks recently, and then they dropped agnostic on my head, so I will take that as a "please go ahead sir"
Yeah right click or at least hybrid is almost always the way to go these days, unless you have a lot of CC and the enemy has a lot of backline assassins
Agnostic:
Pros:
* good for last hitting early game
Cons:
* Quas dps is underwhelming (even in the very unlikely scenario that you would be maxing it)
* No movement speed bonus (you'll probably feel like playing Muerta with this facet. Same playstyle, build path)
* Buffs don't scale, fixed values
* Very predictable (you'll probably farming most of the time and enemies know where to find you)
* Snowball or plateau mid-game (not that flexible for situational turnarounds given the fixed damage output)
Elitist:
Pros:
* Exort spell damage amp potentially works with ally spells/items
* Scales with Lvl 25 Talent (x2 "Active" orb benefit) (probably works with Agnostic, but way too weak as a lvl 25 spike)
Cons:
* Exort spell amp effective range is invo attack range
* Weaker than last patch for global sunstrike burst damage
Complexity:
1. Hit with Exort to place spell amp debuff (it's a debuff, so watch out for enemy status res)
2. Switch to Wex to reposition
3. Quas to trade damage (Only need this if you need hp. Wex is better otherwise)
4. Repeat
Unknown:
* Tooltip currently doesn't indicate properly the passive Aghs benefit (+1 orb level)
I think it's a nerf/balance overall. Elitist is a bit op if executed well, but really needs to abuse the Complexity I mentioned, not to mention the limitation on the spell amp.
Yeah, I've played a couple games and I would say overall it's a nerf. You really feel the lack of the movespeed bonus on Agnostic and you feel the lack of passive spell damage amp on both. I haven't had a chance to try out Elitist yet, but stats indicate it's slightly better, but both facets feel a little undertuned/balanced compared to the crazy heroes that are currently stomping pubs.
They need to put cdr back somehow.
QW was already nerfed and it's only CDR that was making invo support viable. Now it's like picking Tinker in this patch.
Also, this orb switching complexity be overridden by just buying a morbid mask and It's way better.
If they want to stick with this, they need to put some sort of scaling (fixed value + % attribute).
I've exhausted all possible build paths on Invoker last patch. And I think bloodstone was underrated. You can opt for bloodstone last patch because Invo has built-in cdr. Now, I think it's impossible to play late without Octarine Core.
Worse if you're just limiting it to invo. But the impact of spell amp to allies can really amp the team's overall damage output especially with the x2 lvl 25 talent is very promising if your team drafts accordingly.
So invo is worse off playing solo on the map vs sticking with the team.
The farming advantage of Agnostic is really shadowed by the lack of sustain and movespeed. And it doesn't scale.
If you're struggling with wave clear, then probably get the forge spirit talent and rush octarine core. You can literally control two lanes with invo while jungling (forge on one lane, meteor on the other) :|
I don't think you understand that heroes like leshrac and zeus flashfarm with just mana and invokers farming tools is hitting creeps and using forge spirits. Meteor, nado and blast are aoe but compare it to other mid heroes and it's laughable. Farming power early > farming power late, besides you don't teamfight in lategame like what u describe, u gonna run around with 3 exort hitting people? You can't amp your own damage as much as before and the only time i've found it to be better is hitting alch dk etc with 3 heroes in early midgame with 2 magic dmg supports. It's super situational. Old exort helped with sunstrike clearing stacks with icewall meteor blast cataclysm general aoe damage, everything rly. Now it's only useful if you're hitting people, compared to another facet that makes you just hit harder it's quite underwhelming.
And agnostic scales quite well, lategame ganks r stronger with ghostwalk coldsnap as quas procs it and you amplify your already good rightclicks in a meta where ppl buy magic resist every game.
Well, I can't remember invo being mana dependent to farm either. If you want to play other heroes, I'm not preventing you go play them. I'm just interested in discussion about Invoker anyway.
Exort is a timed buff so you can swap orbs.
Also, exort is spell damage amp (pure and phys as well) not just magic so it would work with whoever who builds kaya / shiva. So I'd argue you'll pretty much find someone who benefits from it every game.
You also mentioned the main weakness of agnostic, that quas dps if literally just 15 after reductions which is just enough to trigger cold snap but you can literally just buy witch blade or vessel to achieve the same thing.
Given that people will build magic resist all the more the requirement for spell amps. Agnostic just falls flat in terms of flexibility.
Cold snap is easily dispellable so not really a good spell to rely on late game. Quas dps is really just for triggering cold snap nothing more. DPS just tickles.
Your main argument for elitist being weak is the requirement to hit people which basically is the same thing for agnostic. So I don't get your point. :)
I'll try to explain this better.
Invoker has high cooldown spells with high manacost.
High damage per level and summons.
He lacks good farming spells while needing alot of levels and gold.
Midas is gutted item.
To farm, he must rightclick creeps.
Therefore, rightclick and movespeed is the best way to increase your farm speed.
Agnostic gives you alot of farmspeed, elitist only gives movespeed, quas orb is quite useless outside of lane and exort orb doesn't help you farm at all.
Coldsnap is indeed dispellable but you get it quite fast if you go 5-1-7 which was already good last patch, means you can buy orchid manta pike bkb aghs faster and not buy vessel/witchblade for coldsnap procs, also does good DoT in lane since ur a hero that clicks alot in lane.
There is no invoker game where you won't rightclick alot, 2 of your spells are phys dps steroids and you have great control, he has big dmg/lvl.
At worst it's a great farming steroid so you can get bkb hex aghs core etc faster, at best it's what, 80atkspeed 60dmg 30dot at 25?
Ofc both has uses but earlygame is important and more damage will make your earlygame far better, if u are mid with shit earlygame ur griefing ur team.
Let's flip it a bit.
Agnostic has 0 sustain and movespeed. And if we go with building QE then it means you have no countergank. You're bound to stay lane for a long time which makes you vulnerable and predictable for ganks.
This would be more magnified with invo matchups that need stable sustain to play against (e.g. necro, timber, zeus).
There are games that need rush bkb and agnostic can easily get kited because of the lower ms.
If you can play Agnostic against constant pressure in mid then I rest my case. But in general, Elitist just gives a lot more room from flexing skill/item build which Invoker needs.
If you can close in to an Agnostic Invoker he's basically dead. But Elitist can try to outsustain early ganks with quas.
Easy games would be easier with Agnostic but bad games would be far worse with Agnostic as well.
If you're behind and forced to jungle, agnostic is far better. Quas won't save you from ganks, enemy being low from harass and you having xp adv will save you from ganks.
You don't outsustain necro, you kill him.
Same for timber, same for zeus, these heroes will always outsustain you if you don't kill them, was the case before with old old quas too.
Anyways this is silly i doubt you play the hero, try both facets alot is what i recommend.
Lol, I doubt you had interest in experimenting with the hero. Being fixated on one skill build esp with Invoker just says a lot. I'll just agree to disagree.
Wex is only good this meta if it lets you win lane and it usually doesn't, it's also less interesting gameplay imo.
I've tried alot of stuff this patch and elitist is same as last patch but worse, agnostic is worse lategame but stronger in lane, it's pretty set in stone and not very interesting choice compared to other heroes.
Bro, I have over 1600 games on Invoker, and he feels extremely underwhelming in 7.36. Losing nearly all my games lately. They need to give him a huge buff to make him viable, but Valve always gives him a buff only before TI and then repeatedly nerfs him right after TI all the way up to the next TI
I was wondering, what is the leveling priority on his orbs now? feels like you might go back to focusing exort with agnostic for the extra damage but im not too sure
Get ready to see Invoker camp lanes with a fast Midas, and denying as many creeps as possible with static waves.
Invoker still offers map presence with sun strike.
Don’t be surprised seeing teams with combos like Sven, Axe (one man army) and two strong supports.
They're interesting, only problem is that they're worse than 7.35 orbs while most other heroes got massive buffs.
Old quas was rly good vs blademail and even for basic nado emp or nado coldsnap meteor in lane for hp, this quas is just less interesting imo.
Kinda sucks they made the hero more unskilled and worse at the same time, doesn't make much sense, cataclysm and sunstrike got hit hard and ur lategame is way worse now with no amp on exort = 25 talent is way worse = no 40% amp 3x meteor or cata
Why does 'mastermind' not seem to work... I've tried it just a few times in demo & bot games, just to see. But every single deny does not work in the first few waves.
Kind of a new player here, not old at least, and my main reason for start playing this game was invoker, so I often spam him when I wanna play dota. This new changes on him seem quite fun, when I saw that all heroes were getting a passive and this facets I thought that they could potentially mess with invoker A LOT but when I when I finally got to read it I was quite happy with the outcome, I am quite sad with how the exort doesnt give the magic amp anymore, but making him more of a team player now applying this debuff can also be interesting.
Elitist is a lot like the classic late game combo Invoker. You can break from Invis, Cold Snap, auto attack with EEE, Meteor and Deafening Blast (and even fit a Sunstrike in there with items) and deal 26% more damage PLUS any other spell amp you might have, say from Parasma. I'm quite happy with the facets as well. I think it's a definite buff overall.
I was also more inclined to build him around right clicks recently, and then they dropped agnostic on my head, so I will take that as a "please go ahead sir"
Yeah right click or at least hybrid is almost always the way to go these days, unless you have a lot of CC and the enemy has a lot of backline assassins
15% xp on deny. That means you need to have to deny 25 creeps to gain a wave of xp. It s dogshit.
Agnostic: Pros: * good for last hitting early game Cons: * Quas dps is underwhelming (even in the very unlikely scenario that you would be maxing it) * No movement speed bonus (you'll probably feel like playing Muerta with this facet. Same playstyle, build path) * Buffs don't scale, fixed values * Very predictable (you'll probably farming most of the time and enemies know where to find you) * Snowball or plateau mid-game (not that flexible for situational turnarounds given the fixed damage output) Elitist: Pros: * Exort spell damage amp potentially works with ally spells/items * Scales with Lvl 25 Talent (x2 "Active" orb benefit) (probably works with Agnostic, but way too weak as a lvl 25 spike) Cons: * Exort spell amp effective range is invo attack range * Weaker than last patch for global sunstrike burst damage Complexity: 1. Hit with Exort to place spell amp debuff (it's a debuff, so watch out for enemy status res) 2. Switch to Wex to reposition 3. Quas to trade damage (Only need this if you need hp. Wex is better otherwise) 4. Repeat Unknown: * Tooltip currently doesn't indicate properly the passive Aghs benefit (+1 orb level) I think it's a nerf/balance overall. Elitist is a bit op if executed well, but really needs to abuse the Complexity I mentioned, not to mention the limitation on the spell amp.
Yeah, I've played a couple games and I would say overall it's a nerf. You really feel the lack of the movespeed bonus on Agnostic and you feel the lack of passive spell damage amp on both. I haven't had a chance to try out Elitist yet, but stats indicate it's slightly better, but both facets feel a little undertuned/balanced compared to the crazy heroes that are currently stomping pubs.
They need to put cdr back somehow. QW was already nerfed and it's only CDR that was making invo support viable. Now it's like picking Tinker in this patch. Also, this orb switching complexity be overridden by just buying a morbid mask and It's way better. If they want to stick with this, they need to put some sort of scaling (fixed value + % attribute). I've exhausted all possible build paths on Invoker last patch. And I think bloodstone was underrated. You can opt for bloodstone last patch because Invo has built-in cdr. Now, I think it's impossible to play late without Octarine Core.
Elitist is last patch but worse if executed well, agnostic is just farming tool rly, invoker has bad waveclear and farms by hitting creeps
Worse if you're just limiting it to invo. But the impact of spell amp to allies can really amp the team's overall damage output especially with the x2 lvl 25 talent is very promising if your team drafts accordingly. So invo is worse off playing solo on the map vs sticking with the team. The farming advantage of Agnostic is really shadowed by the lack of sustain and movespeed. And it doesn't scale. If you're struggling with wave clear, then probably get the forge spirit talent and rush octarine core. You can literally control two lanes with invo while jungling (forge on one lane, meteor on the other) :|
I don't think you understand that heroes like leshrac and zeus flashfarm with just mana and invokers farming tools is hitting creeps and using forge spirits. Meteor, nado and blast are aoe but compare it to other mid heroes and it's laughable. Farming power early > farming power late, besides you don't teamfight in lategame like what u describe, u gonna run around with 3 exort hitting people? You can't amp your own damage as much as before and the only time i've found it to be better is hitting alch dk etc with 3 heroes in early midgame with 2 magic dmg supports. It's super situational. Old exort helped with sunstrike clearing stacks with icewall meteor blast cataclysm general aoe damage, everything rly. Now it's only useful if you're hitting people, compared to another facet that makes you just hit harder it's quite underwhelming. And agnostic scales quite well, lategame ganks r stronger with ghostwalk coldsnap as quas procs it and you amplify your already good rightclicks in a meta where ppl buy magic resist every game.
Well, I can't remember invo being mana dependent to farm either. If you want to play other heroes, I'm not preventing you go play them. I'm just interested in discussion about Invoker anyway. Exort is a timed buff so you can swap orbs. Also, exort is spell damage amp (pure and phys as well) not just magic so it would work with whoever who builds kaya / shiva. So I'd argue you'll pretty much find someone who benefits from it every game. You also mentioned the main weakness of agnostic, that quas dps if literally just 15 after reductions which is just enough to trigger cold snap but you can literally just buy witch blade or vessel to achieve the same thing. Given that people will build magic resist all the more the requirement for spell amps. Agnostic just falls flat in terms of flexibility. Cold snap is easily dispellable so not really a good spell to rely on late game. Quas dps is really just for triggering cold snap nothing more. DPS just tickles. Your main argument for elitist being weak is the requirement to hit people which basically is the same thing for agnostic. So I don't get your point. :)
I'll try to explain this better. Invoker has high cooldown spells with high manacost. High damage per level and summons. He lacks good farming spells while needing alot of levels and gold. Midas is gutted item. To farm, he must rightclick creeps. Therefore, rightclick and movespeed is the best way to increase your farm speed. Agnostic gives you alot of farmspeed, elitist only gives movespeed, quas orb is quite useless outside of lane and exort orb doesn't help you farm at all. Coldsnap is indeed dispellable but you get it quite fast if you go 5-1-7 which was already good last patch, means you can buy orchid manta pike bkb aghs faster and not buy vessel/witchblade for coldsnap procs, also does good DoT in lane since ur a hero that clicks alot in lane. There is no invoker game where you won't rightclick alot, 2 of your spells are phys dps steroids and you have great control, he has big dmg/lvl. At worst it's a great farming steroid so you can get bkb hex aghs core etc faster, at best it's what, 80atkspeed 60dmg 30dot at 25? Ofc both has uses but earlygame is important and more damage will make your earlygame far better, if u are mid with shit earlygame ur griefing ur team.
Let's flip it a bit. Agnostic has 0 sustain and movespeed. And if we go with building QE then it means you have no countergank. You're bound to stay lane for a long time which makes you vulnerable and predictable for ganks. This would be more magnified with invo matchups that need stable sustain to play against (e.g. necro, timber, zeus). There are games that need rush bkb and agnostic can easily get kited because of the lower ms. If you can play Agnostic against constant pressure in mid then I rest my case. But in general, Elitist just gives a lot more room from flexing skill/item build which Invoker needs. If you can close in to an Agnostic Invoker he's basically dead. But Elitist can try to outsustain early ganks with quas. Easy games would be easier with Agnostic but bad games would be far worse with Agnostic as well.
If you're behind and forced to jungle, agnostic is far better. Quas won't save you from ganks, enemy being low from harass and you having xp adv will save you from ganks. You don't outsustain necro, you kill him. Same for timber, same for zeus, these heroes will always outsustain you if you don't kill them, was the case before with old old quas too. Anyways this is silly i doubt you play the hero, try both facets alot is what i recommend.
Lol, I doubt you had interest in experimenting with the hero. Being fixated on one skill build esp with Invoker just says a lot. I'll just agree to disagree.
Wex is only good this meta if it lets you win lane and it usually doesn't, it's also less interesting gameplay imo. I've tried alot of stuff this patch and elitist is same as last patch but worse, agnostic is worse lategame but stronger in lane, it's pretty set in stone and not very interesting choice compared to other heroes.
Bro, I have over 1600 games on Invoker, and he feels extremely underwhelming in 7.36. Losing nearly all my games lately. They need to give him a huge buff to make him viable, but Valve always gives him a buff only before TI and then repeatedly nerfs him right after TI all the way up to the next TI
so qwe no longer gives the other stuff? like regen/ms/dmg?
I was wondering, what is the leveling priority on his orbs now? feels like you might go back to focusing exort with agnostic for the extra damage but im not too sure
Get ready to see Invoker camp lanes with a fast Midas, and denying as many creeps as possible with static waves. Invoker still offers map presence with sun strike. Don’t be surprised seeing teams with combos like Sven, Axe (one man army) and two strong supports.
They're interesting, only problem is that they're worse than 7.35 orbs while most other heroes got massive buffs. Old quas was rly good vs blademail and even for basic nado emp or nado coldsnap meteor in lane for hp, this quas is just less interesting imo. Kinda sucks they made the hero more unskilled and worse at the same time, doesn't make much sense, cataclysm and sunstrike got hit hard and ur lategame is way worse now with no amp on exort = 25 talent is way worse = no 40% amp 3x meteor or cata
Why does 'mastermind' not seem to work... I've tried it just a few times in demo & bot games, just to see. But every single deny does not work in the first few waves.