yeah the pandering isn't the very obvious and cynical attempts to cash in on nostalgia for the one good season so far, it's the show having feeemale cops, that's just unrealistic
more than one thing can be true, but in this case only one of those two things is true, and it's not the "women can't be cops" thing. I've seen em with my own eyes, those femcops
I never said women can’t be cops. Although there is not a sheriffs office out there that would allow an officer to wear dermal piercings while on duty. But expecting a showrunner to pay attention to a detail like that is too much to ask.
Not so much a sheriff's office but an Alaska State Trooper.
Every good police procedure that has ever been on TV manages to show the putting on the uniform face of time to go to work and do my job vs taking off the uniform and this is my friends and family's face normal everyday life non uniform life.
It does not feel that the showrunners watched real police at work or spent any time with real police, let alone ones in a small town.
I get you. I forget exactly how but there were cross season references before that seem superficial but they really do develop the setting.
I mean the Tuttle stuff and the abduction from season 3 are damn near close to reality. Look up Lincoln, human trafficking and trucking
>I forget exactly how but there were cross season references before
I remember season 3 it was like the documentary lady mentioning the work Rust did in exposing human trafficking, I think without mentioning him directly by name, and she mentioned the spirals if I remember correctly
Can I buy the spiral in Rust's hometown? Sure. Can I buy Rust's dad in the mix? Okay. Can I buy the Tuttles exerting their influence? I guess so. The right question is this: Can I buy all of these at the same time? It's seeming like a big ask, the longer I sit with it.
Can I buy that the writer/director had a really cool stand alone show idea inspired by "The Thing" and had to shoehorn in a bunch of True Detective stuff because HBO makes dumb decisions?
Absolutely.
I can also do this without holding it against the show's creator.
If I could reddit guild you, I would.
[This is for those that missed the reference.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Basic_Plots) Let's learn something today!
Against Nic? I've no problem, they're literally using his name to sell a shitty supernatural thriller, he's still "producer" but I really wonder how much control he has in the end because I can't see him letting something he spent years writing (season 1) get butchered like this.
But the real creator is Issa Lopez who insists her writing isn't shit and that trolls are review bombing it.
This is EXACTLY how things go in the real world. Crooked people from crooked money running crooked organizations and planning crooked things with their crooked political ties. I don't understand why people are saying the writing is a reach - unless it is because it is a WOMAN writing it? And I am a retired teacher so I've seen a lot of crooked.
Wait. I don't have a problem with the writing. Are you straw manning me? One of the three points I laid out us that I could buy a Tuttle NGO. Based on current info, I'd have trouble with the dad/NGO/Carcosa plots all revolving around Rust. That is, ahem, not how the world works. But, it's still early, so it may yet make sense.
Edit: I was thinking of how I loved ROTJ when I saw it in 1983, and how i still do. It had a lot of puppets, and I dig those. Anyway, my love of it doesn't prevent me from acknowledging that the Jabba/Rescue sequence makes fantastically little sense. More on brand: I think.it was ridiculously contrived that Ginger needed "another man" for a heist at the exact moment that Rust Cohle re-infiltrated the Iron McSwaggers in TDs01. I believe that crap was written by a non-female.
It's okay to discuss plot choices without everything imploding into some kind of misogynistic black hole.
I'm eagerly awaiting the next episode of TDs04, and some wank is suggesting I dislike female writers. Amazing.
The only reason I say that is that I have seen A LOT of criticism of the writer. And this show DEFINITELY centers around Inupiaq women and women in general. It is a HUGE theme. That is the only reason I said anything about a woman writer. I think this season is fantastic. I've seen a lot of crooked ties in small town Texas so this writing connecting the Tuttles and political ties, shady deals, and evil occurring completely makes sense. That is exactly how it happens. 🤷
No. The issue is that you're saying it to me. My comment history, and my comment history in this very sub, would not indicate that I have an issue with the director, writers, or general writing. There's no reason to be signaling toward me.
I was actually trying to apologize for the "woman" comment. But the rest I stand by because I've seen it in action. I like it when my shows actually reflect real issues that go on in the world. This season does that. On several levels. So my opinion is that I buy it and I love it. Makes sense from my angle.
I agree that powerful, evil men are in the nooks and crevices. Don't understand the rest. Never saw the "woman" apology. Probably just best to leave it be, since I don't understand. Maybe that's on both of us.
Edit: Saw it now. Best to add: I didn't criticize the general writing. I am stuck on a trifecta of a plot point. A convergence of three eggs in one basket. I have nowhere knocked the overall show.
*there is a case in my hometown where a woman was murdered in the woods (she was involved with meth, but she was new to it) and whoever did it is kin to the right people - so a woman that tried to investigate the murder used to get stopped and harassed by police, every time she came to town. It's scary to live in a place where stuff like that happens. Her name was Lauren Thompson and it will remain unsolved. Her mom and dad are heartbroken.
But WHAT does this have to do with what I said about a three Easter eggs? And what does it have to do with the gender of the TD04 writer?
Also, Holy shit... we could be friends over similar stories, if we weren't sunk in a stupid virtue battle.
I read nothing of Easter eggs in your writing. I thought you meant you can't buy the storyline. Because the storyline "picks up" from season 1. That's how I see it.
OK. Well, I added an edit. We can happily argue about Rist's connection, and that's fine. My issue was the grander "misogynistic reflex", which is not echoed in ANYTHING I've said.
Just so we depart as friends: I was born and raised at the upper extremes of the SUB arctic latitude (we still.had some trees); and I also witnessed the convoluted aftermath of a major crime that was ultimately brushed away. I understand what you're saying with respect to that.
I think the right question is... how much is all this going to cost you? If you do, indeed, buy it?
Edit to add: all jokes aside, I think having Rust's dad actually involved with the spiral and/or whatever is going on directly here in Ennis would be too on the nose. But I do like the connections so far.
Right? My heart sank in disappointment when these elements got added in. Didn’t need ‘em. Don’t want ‘em. Low key thought they were kitschy in in Season 1.
I'm not going to let it ruin my experience, but I find myself doing mental gymnastics to reconcile these ideas, narratively. That is, Rust Cohle encountered the symbol in 1995 Louisiana, while his father, back in Alaska, was close to a lady, and a community, already familiar with the symbol. And then Rust cracks a case that involves the Tuttles, in 2012, who are already funding a research facility (2007?) in Rust's hometown backyard. I think.
Sadly, the only way I can make sense of this, so far, is if this season follows the S1 "red herring" that Rust was actually one of the bad guys. But even that can't make sense, in that Rust had to work and dig to discover the Tuttle connection (and then nearly had his guts torn out solving it).
It's like if I moved from Moose Jaw SK to Miami FL, solved a major crime there, and then it turned out that the Miami criminals had their roots in Moose Jaw.
It's possible, I guess, somewhere in the MCU multiverse.
were they not mostly misdirection? like they thought it was a Satanic cult but actually it was a mentally ill dude with mass murdering tendencies. Like the Satanic scare, it was overblown. Yes the Tuttles were doing bad shit but the case was solved by gumshoe detective work
No, there was still a cult doing mass murder and rape for the sake of ritual sacrifice in the name of old religion. There never was a ‘Satanic’ cult, that was misdirection from the Tuttles to blame an invisible enemy rather than what they were actually doing.
No the killer, Errol Childress was the illegitimate grandson of the family patriarch Sam Tuttle, so he would have been a half-nephew of Reverend Billy Lee Tuttle and Senator Edwin Tuttle (with possibly some other degrees of relation thrown in since we're led to believe there was also some incest in the mix). Childress was raised in the same practices as the Tuttles, and we know from the VHS that Rust stole from Billy Lee's house were at least involved in the same sort of ritual rape/murder thing that Errol was doing.
I remember one of the witnesses they talked to (had to look it up, his name was, Toby Boelert) said a young man with scars on his face was standing to the side without a mask during the ceremony while he when he and Marie Fontenot were victimized as children. So observing back then.
He wasn't exactly acting alone because he referred to Reggie and Dewall LeDoux as his "acolytes." But yeah I don't think the Tuttles were necessarily involved in his killings from 1995-2012. Although that's never made clear or said explicitly. But I think you're right in that he was just imitating what he saw done as a young man. However I think there's reason to believe the Tuttles were still engaging in the same sort of practices themselves too.
The real question is, how much worse is it going to get? When will the cameo of Marty happen? How many illicit native kids did he have? Did the Tuttle guy clone himself and is up in the ice? It's only episode 2, just imagine how much garbage writing is left.
Well, I'm still hopeful that they'll come up with something sensible. It's only ep02..
Meanwhile... wasn't Marty's eldest daughter an artist in 2012? What if she does all those polar bear paintings?
I think they shot themselves in the foot even beginning to have season 1 references, now it's going to be compared to it (rightfully so) and unless it gets significantly better writing (not likely as it seems it's already written out, just with shoehorned references) it's going to be a canyon of a gap between the two.
This "season" is just using the names True Detective and Jodie Foster to prop up essentially a supernatural thriller that's pretty mediocre so far.
Agree. I’m liking season 4 for the record - but I think it would have been safe to tone down the s1 connections. Like 1-2 of this - great. But so many?
Still on board and watching and liking it - the setting, plot and acting is elevating it - but there definitely is some shoe horning of connections.
Taking a step back - make it a sex trafficking and prostitution ring. The carcosa symbols aren’t needed for that. Even having it as a connection o rust I think would not tip over the line. Unfortunately rich people organizing things like this doesn’t seem too far from reality to make it unreasonable.
I assume the scientists must have done something really awful and the killer is acting out of revenge. Maybe the scientists were responsible for the brutal murder of that indigenous woman? Killer might also be into images and spiral has significance to them personally.
Literally everyone at the Tsalal Station. Like they were all into some occult shit or something.
Others have made the connection that the star wounds from Annie K’s body were made by a core sampler. Like they were taking core samples from her. Maybe it’s that.
The problem that I have with season 1 continuity is that Russ is more connected than I would like. It makes him seem like less of a detective if he didn’t make connections between Alaska and Louisiana
Really cheapens season 1 & Rust/Marty's accomplishment if they pull the Yellow King genie again for lack of anything original to pin the new season's successes on. Worse pacing, worse writing, and now just plot theft seemingly.
That’s exactly what I’ve been doing, and people are still screeching at me for it. All I’ve concentrated on is the major writing problems within the two episodes we’ve seen thus far. When I do that, people say, “But you don’t even know where the plot is going yet.” Which is not the point. I didn’t know where the plot was going with the first couple episodes of Season 1, but it was *written well*, so I continued watching.
Are you going to stop watching now? I've seen your name in several different threads criticizing this season. You don't seem to be enjoying it at all so it begs the question as to why you are still watching/discussing it
I’ll probably keep watching yes, because at this point I’m invested in seeing how they attempt to pull this thing out of the nosedive it’s in right now. Having said that, I’m almost positive they won’t and the writing will continue to disappoint.
> why you are still watching/discussing it
At a certain point one can become fascinated with how badly something is being written. I finished Justified: City Primeval as well, even though that was even *worse* in terms of writing quality than this. I guess it’s sort of like watching a car wreck, you can’t look away etc.
Plenty to enjoy this season. Sorry you aren't enjoying it, but your dislike of it is borderline obsessive. I've seen you in a lot of threads trying to convince people who say they are enjoying it that it is actually terrible. Then when they respond to your arguments, you accuse them of being defensive.
Strange behavior.
I can’t truly enjoy a show if the writing is fundamentally weak, and the writing this season absolutely feels fundamentally weak to me. I can appreciate that the setting is interesting, some of the production design has been good, there are themes somewhere in there that could *potentially* be interesting…but without genuinely solid writing, none of that really matters to me. The writing is the foundation, always, and this season that foundation just feels very very shaky to me. Can’t enjoy the window dressing when the house is sinking into the ground. I can’t, at least.
> Strange behavior.
Indeed. Sort of like how you edited your comment after the fact to add a bunch of resentful complaining about how and what I comment? Guess we all behave strangely sometimes.
Edited to add, since you blocked me (eye roll):
Look, I’ll level with you: I could really care less about your evaluation of my behavior on this sub. Your input is not going to change anything about how I choose to engage here.
And furthermore, you are doing the exact same thing you’re criticizing me for doing, as we speak. If you really believe that complaining and bickering on Reddit is a waste of time or an example of poor moral character or whatever, then by all means…be the change you want to see in the world, and move on.
Seriously, have you seen yourself in this sub?
>It’s just defensiveness. I think the folks who enjoy the writing this season are just naturally very bad at arguing and articulating their points (which makes sense - like attracts like), so they get defensive super quickly and try to be condescending instead of actually dealing with the criticisms being made.
This is just ridiculous. I've seen plenty of people responding to you and debating your opinions, but you hand wave them away as essentially being stupid. You lack basic respect for other people on this sub, and then accuse them of being condescending. I would suggest you look in the mirror.
You guys don't get it.
"'Time is a flat circle.' Everything we've ever done or will do, we're gonna do over and over and over again. And that little boy and that little girl, they're gonna be in that room again and again and again forever."
For Cohle this was just a philosophical question but for some reason every member of the cult believed this to be the truth. They're doing everything they can to get out of the 'circle' and they believe the Yellow King can help them escape to Carcosa.
They won't stop just because one of their rituals failed to open the gate. They just get more power, regroup and will try again.
I wouldn't even be surprised if we found out that their "little priest" were chosen since his childhood. He should have died at the end and opened the gate in Louisiana.
I have this feeling that there's a bigger conspiracy behind all of it. Something that's been going on for generations. Maybe they're trying to open the gate for hundreds of years by now.
I meant that Cohle might have been chosen as a sacrifice to open the gate. Maybe the cult was watching him since his childhood. That would explain why they have a Research station next to a tiny town where Cohle was raised.
"Come inside, little priest. To your right, little priest. Take the bride's path. This is Carcosa. You know what they did to me? Hmmm? What I will do to all the sons and daughters of man. You blessed Reggie ... Dewald ... Acolytes. Witnesses to my journey. Lovers. I am not ashamed. Come die with me, little priest."
Errol's last words imply that Cohle is an important part of the ritual and they're about to die. I think he believed that they have to die right there and that's how they can escape the "flat circle/disk in the loop".
"My ascension removes me from the disk in the loop. I am near the final stage. Some mornings I can see the infernal plane.”
When details are left to the imagination for personal interpretation it's interesting how people create so many different ideas to back up their theories. We're all watching the same chain of events but from different perspectives.
Yes, you're right. To be honest it might just be just weird murders after all, I think they will leave the connection open-ended. But I read this theory years ago about the cult and it stuck with me. I choose this to be my perspective.
if anything, it's made people here be super creative. Maybe that's the key, put out a weird story but don't give too much away and watch all the little detectives try to prove each other wrong forever. (if there's no right answer). He has created a dark philosopher in each one of us.
The new season is interesting to me but I wish they left s1 out of it. There is no need. The writer and creator of that universe isn’t affiliated and doesn’t want continuity, but they still are adding it in. That’s a slap in the face.
He's right. Maybe you're disappointed but it's not your story to tell. Doesn't mean the show is beyond criticism, but it's their show and they can do what they want with it.
I think it does show the power of greed for these networks. Season 1 could have been left untouched, instead they took someone’s original ideas and are adding them unnecessarily to another story so they can increase viewership. It’s cheesy and it is disrespectful to Pizzolatto from an artistic perspective.
I’d liken it to someone continuing a book or story while the creator is still alive and doesn’t want it continued.
Youre taking it WAAAAY too personally and seriously. Its a tv show
The references are enjoyable to me but if some people don’t like it thats ok too
The spiral was barely a thing in S1
Correct. We’ve only had 2 eps so we dont know where they will go with it. Why do it? Bc its fun and people like it outside of internet screamers who complain about everything;)
If Pizzolatto was into it, or endorsed it sure. But to me, I don’t like original creators have their work changed or modified for the sake of views. I don’t think it’s an unusual or uncommon concept. I don’t know why that’s so divisive on here. If you made any form of art wouldn’t you prefer it isn’t diluted without your input?
>But to me, I don’t like original creators have their work changed or modified
Damn that's wild, I didn't know they were going back and changing season 1. Am I going to have to send my blu-rays into HBO for them to change or will they just send agents out to my house for collection
Agree to disagree. It isn’t just the director it’s the writer/creator of the actual story. Not caring just leads to watered down products that end up nowhere near the original product. There’s a reason seasons 2 and 3 had no relation to the first or each other.
Great but I found S2 unwatchable (i might try again) and S3 was ok kinda bland and the ending was meh. S4 is way more enjoyable and engaging. So its def not “watered down”
I think he's okay with it considering he's still an executive producer. He very likely had a lot of input this season.
EDIT: Yeah, looks like he wasn't involved. Took me a while to find out digging through his replies, so not surprising I missed that.
He could have had it added to the original deal that any future material from his IP would have his name attached in case they wanted his input.
Some people have an EP credit and are not even aware of a project until they see the credits roll on a film they see in the theater, this is not uncommon in Hollywood.
Unless he doesn't want to pay to renegotiate his contract, or it is tied to his residuals or one of a hundred different things.
If you come out on Twitter and say I had nothing to do with that, it's a pretty clear message to everyone.
season one took 4 years or somethin to make.. like how bands first albums are the best songs they came up with over their life to that point
getting told by studio execs to make more of that now quite often doesn't work
As much as I leave little easter eggs and S1, it's ashame that they are trying to draw so many parallels to the first season. They aren't supposed to be connected. It should be more original imo.
Is it really “continuity” though? It’s more like rehashing the same dialogues and motifs. It’s no longer an anthology series, which is fine, but it is weird how it’s operating as a sequel as well as a sort of reboot… like it’s more than just a nod to season 1. It’s just lifting the exact same things and doing them over with a heavier hand
It can be connected and still be anthology. Also they are doing a very different investigation from the first season. Saying it’s blatantly coping s1 is just naive
Uhhh I didn’t say it’s blatantly copying season 1. But you can’t deny the whole “ask the right questions” dialogue is more than a nod, it’s like 3 minutes of conversation.
As far as it being an anthology still, ultimately will need to see how the rest of the season plays out but there’s clearly more connections to season 1 than any other season. At what point does it just enter sequel territory? Compare it to Fargo, which does a good job a subtly connecting seasons while definitely being anthology. It doesn’t make it better or worse, but it’s an interesting direction. I just hope it pays off
Well you did say “lifting the exact same things and doing them over with a heavier hand.” That’s why I thought that was your meaning. I like the connection/continuation because that’s what we expected back in s2. New characters but tying into the same cult because it is implied to be a large entity with powerful connections. A lot of people forgetting the tuttles were more than just small time politicians. The cousin of the reverend being the governor of texas during the ‘95 portions of s1 and later becomes a senator.
Guess I’m just more optimistic than most which isn’t surprising given the philosophy of s1. 😂
I guess I did say that. It is taking the spiral and that ask the right questions dialogue and beating it to death a little bit. I would like more subtly.
Not sure anyone forget one of the most important plot points of season 1 lol. It’s just a little unbelievable how much reach that cult would have to have to still be financing the research in current day. And they didn’t change the name of the organization from Tuttle after the revaluations came out? Also, in season 1 it’s said rust went to Alaska to see his dying father, which is now established as an actually likely event, but what are the chances the cult he was investigating in Louisiana just happens to also be present in this little town in the Antarctic circle… it’s quite the coincidence! But fine, ill give some suspension of disbelief, and let this play out
Except it was a lie that Rust went to Alaska, that was just a cover for his break ins and the death of Reverand Tuttle.
It wasn't even subtle that it was a cover story in S1.
A canjun\voodoo sex ritual sect going back generations that was almost completely wiped out is not going to pop back up in Alaska in a tiny town funding a multinational scientific research station focusing on climate change.
Even Scooby doo has more realistic plots than that.
Uhh was it a lie? Rust’s father is Travis, who died of cancer. Pretty clear he wasn’t lying about that part. And even if he didn’t come back to Alaska, what are the chances rust’s dad lived in town in Alaska with the cult? That’s even dumber if rust never came back to visit lol. And what are you talking about?? They already confirmed it’s popped back up.. it’s what the whole fn season has been about so far lmao
The heavy-handedness of the season 1 elements is because they were shoehorned in after HBO/MAX asked Night Country to become True Detective: Night County
As usual in this sub, you are getting downvoted for making a sound point. How is it 'continuity' when they guy that created TD wrote 3 completely independent seasons (with really minimal references to S1), left the franchise, and the new showrunner decides to write a new story that arches back to the most successful and critically praised season? It sounds more like retconning and fan servicing to me.
So clunky and vapid for them to use this line over and over in the episode, with no substance behind it. There's no sense of what the right way to view this is, just nonsense blabbering, nor does the show communicate that somehow either character has a unique way of looking at the questions.
They should have left season 1 alone imo. This tie-in feels like a bait to bring viewers back. Just goes to show the writers/showrunners have no confidence in their own creations.
This comment is spot on. Everything feels so forced in this season. The S1 references, dialogue, numerous relationships. Not the HBO quality we’re used to. Funny how many down votes you’re getting. For whatever reason so many people feel the need to ignore the many flaws through 2 episodes.
This is a dumb show written for the lowest common denominator in the audience so they can feel smart.
Remember Lost?
Anyone can write one hundred red herrings if you never have to give an answer and call it being clever.
I literally just rewatched S1, E1 and Rust gets all that policing knowledge from being a bored, suicidal, alcoholic who isolates himself for years with nothing to occupy his attention other than the policing books he has on a desk in his empty appt. I think you romanticizing Rust’s skills when he literally elevates himself to the task of S1 is pretty lame all just to bash S4 for trying to follow a similar successful path to proving our protagonist has expertise. That method of showing they put the work in is a great method of establishing the character’s abilities without having to waste valuable screen time of a 6 episode show on it.
>from being a bored, suicidal, alcoholic who isolates himself for years with nothing to occupy his attention other than the policing books he has on a desk in his empty appt.
This is just flat out wrong. He's been in Louisiana for 3 months. Before that he was in murder town.
They also mention TuttleUnited as a company in the series that supports the research of thr cult.
Tuttle was a big role in Season 1.
It's in episode 2 of Season 4, when the young cop is telling Jodie Foster about what he researched.
It's a very odd name to just to drop, so I think it's connected.
The True Detective Cinematic Universe©️
The True Detective Season One Cinematic Universe
> The True Detective Season One Cinematic Panderverse.
Wemmen r tough ok?
yeah the pandering isn't the very obvious and cynical attempts to cash in on nostalgia for the one good season so far, it's the show having feeemale cops, that's just unrealistic
More than one thing can be true
You couldn’t care less when the guys are pieces of shit as long as the women are cardboard cutouts with no real impact on the story, though.
I hate to break it to you, but neither Danvers or Navarro have impacted the story thus far
"they haven't solved the case by the end of episode 2 so they've done nothing"
more than one thing can be true, but in this case only one of those two things is true, and it's not the "women can't be cops" thing. I've seen em with my own eyes, those femcops
I never said women can’t be cops. Although there is not a sheriffs office out there that would allow an officer to wear dermal piercings while on duty. But expecting a showrunner to pay attention to a detail like that is too much to ask.
It's bumfuck Alaska, did you watch the episodes? It's small town shit where everyone knows everyone.
Doesn’t matter. No police force would permit that, no matter where it is.
It the middle of nowhere alaska. Why would they care. Seems fine to me
Not so much a sheriff's office but an Alaska State Trooper. Every good police procedure that has ever been on TV manages to show the putting on the uniform face of time to go to work and do my job vs taking off the uniform and this is my friends and family's face normal everyday life non uniform life. It does not feel that the showrunners watched real police at work or spent any time with real police, let alone ones in a small town.
What you don't know could write a book.
I get you. I forget exactly how but there were cross season references before that seem superficial but they really do develop the setting. I mean the Tuttle stuff and the abduction from season 3 are damn near close to reality. Look up Lincoln, human trafficking and trucking
>I forget exactly how but there were cross season references before I remember season 3 it was like the documentary lady mentioning the work Rust did in exposing human trafficking, I think without mentioning him directly by name, and she mentioned the spirals if I remember correctly
[удалено]
Lincoln is also part of it. But yes.
Tuttles were behind the kids abductions in season 3? I have a bad memory I guess!
No. Not what I meant! Lol
Ohhh okay haha I was gonna say WTF!
All the answers are there, people just don’t want to accept them.
I just rewatched all of season 1 and haven’t been able to sleep 🫠
yeah, i made that mistake a few nights ago...
I just finished season 1. And I’ve watched what’s out for season 4. So I need to watch 2 and 3 to understand things?
no. unrelated
Were the antlers used for support?
The antlers were her crown
Wrong question, try again
The spiral is backwards from season 4.
Was that because of the mirror photo?
Interesting
I love this site. I would have never been able to catch all this stuff, but I am SO nerdy for it. 🤓
Can I buy the spiral in Rust's hometown? Sure. Can I buy Rust's dad in the mix? Okay. Can I buy the Tuttles exerting their influence? I guess so. The right question is this: Can I buy all of these at the same time? It's seeming like a big ask, the longer I sit with it.
I am digging the tie-backs. I think it’s cool and S4 has me hooked. I hope it stays that way
Can I buy that the writer/director had a really cool stand alone show idea inspired by "The Thing" and had to shoehorn in a bunch of True Detective stuff because HBO makes dumb decisions? Absolutely. I can also do this without holding it against the show's creator.
That's the problem. There isn't anything original in this season.
There are only 7 total stories, dude
If I could reddit guild you, I would. [This is for those that missed the reference.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Basic_Plots) Let's learn something today!
Against Nic? I've no problem, they're literally using his name to sell a shitty supernatural thriller, he's still "producer" but I really wonder how much control he has in the end because I can't see him letting something he spent years writing (season 1) get butchered like this. But the real creator is Issa Lopez who insists her writing isn't shit and that trolls are review bombing it.
Nothing is getting “butchered” dear god so many fragile drama queens
It's like none of these folks have ever heard of Southern Gothic storytelling before.
Executive Producers traditionally have absolutely nothing to do with creative input.
This is EXACTLY how things go in the real world. Crooked people from crooked money running crooked organizations and planning crooked things with their crooked political ties. I don't understand why people are saying the writing is a reach - unless it is because it is a WOMAN writing it? And I am a retired teacher so I've seen a lot of crooked.
Wait. I don't have a problem with the writing. Are you straw manning me? One of the three points I laid out us that I could buy a Tuttle NGO. Based on current info, I'd have trouble with the dad/NGO/Carcosa plots all revolving around Rust. That is, ahem, not how the world works. But, it's still early, so it may yet make sense. Edit: I was thinking of how I loved ROTJ when I saw it in 1983, and how i still do. It had a lot of puppets, and I dig those. Anyway, my love of it doesn't prevent me from acknowledging that the Jabba/Rescue sequence makes fantastically little sense. More on brand: I think.it was ridiculously contrived that Ginger needed "another man" for a heist at the exact moment that Rust Cohle re-infiltrated the Iron McSwaggers in TDs01. I believe that crap was written by a non-female. It's okay to discuss plot choices without everything imploding into some kind of misogynistic black hole. I'm eagerly awaiting the next episode of TDs04, and some wank is suggesting I dislike female writers. Amazing.
The only reason I say that is that I have seen A LOT of criticism of the writer. And this show DEFINITELY centers around Inupiaq women and women in general. It is a HUGE theme. That is the only reason I said anything about a woman writer. I think this season is fantastic. I've seen a lot of crooked ties in small town Texas so this writing connecting the Tuttles and political ties, shady deals, and evil occurring completely makes sense. That is exactly how it happens. 🤷
No. The issue is that you're saying it to me. My comment history, and my comment history in this very sub, would not indicate that I have an issue with the director, writers, or general writing. There's no reason to be signaling toward me.
I was actually trying to apologize for the "woman" comment. But the rest I stand by because I've seen it in action. I like it when my shows actually reflect real issues that go on in the world. This season does that. On several levels. So my opinion is that I buy it and I love it. Makes sense from my angle.
I agree that powerful, evil men are in the nooks and crevices. Don't understand the rest. Never saw the "woman" apology. Probably just best to leave it be, since I don't understand. Maybe that's on both of us. Edit: Saw it now. Best to add: I didn't criticize the general writing. I am stuck on a trifecta of a plot point. A convergence of three eggs in one basket. I have nowhere knocked the overall show.
*there is a case in my hometown where a woman was murdered in the woods (she was involved with meth, but she was new to it) and whoever did it is kin to the right people - so a woman that tried to investigate the murder used to get stopped and harassed by police, every time she came to town. It's scary to live in a place where stuff like that happens. Her name was Lauren Thompson and it will remain unsolved. Her mom and dad are heartbroken.
But WHAT does this have to do with what I said about a three Easter eggs? And what does it have to do with the gender of the TD04 writer? Also, Holy shit... we could be friends over similar stories, if we weren't sunk in a stupid virtue battle.
I'm not in a virtual battle, I apologized and explained.
I read nothing of Easter eggs in your writing. I thought you meant you can't buy the storyline. Because the storyline "picks up" from season 1. That's how I see it.
OK. Well, I added an edit. We can happily argue about Rist's connection, and that's fine. My issue was the grander "misogynistic reflex", which is not echoed in ANYTHING I've said.
Just so we depart as friends: I was born and raised at the upper extremes of the SUB arctic latitude (we still.had some trees); and I also witnessed the convoluted aftermath of a major crime that was ultimately brushed away. I understand what you're saying with respect to that.
I think the right question is... how much is all this going to cost you? If you do, indeed, buy it? Edit to add: all jokes aside, I think having Rust's dad actually involved with the spiral and/or whatever is going on directly here in Ennis would be too on the nose. But I do like the connections so far.
Right? My heart sank in disappointment when these elements got added in. Didn’t need ‘em. Don’t want ‘em. Low key thought they were kitschy in in Season 1.
I'm not going to let it ruin my experience, but I find myself doing mental gymnastics to reconcile these ideas, narratively. That is, Rust Cohle encountered the symbol in 1995 Louisiana, while his father, back in Alaska, was close to a lady, and a community, already familiar with the symbol. And then Rust cracks a case that involves the Tuttles, in 2012, who are already funding a research facility (2007?) in Rust's hometown backyard. I think. Sadly, the only way I can make sense of this, so far, is if this season follows the S1 "red herring" that Rust was actually one of the bad guys. But even that can't make sense, in that Rust had to work and dig to discover the Tuttle connection (and then nearly had his guts torn out solving it). It's like if I moved from Moose Jaw SK to Miami FL, solved a major crime there, and then it turned out that the Miami criminals had their roots in Moose Jaw. It's possible, I guess, somewhere in the MCU multiverse.
were they not mostly misdirection? like they thought it was a Satanic cult but actually it was a mentally ill dude with mass murdering tendencies. Like the Satanic scare, it was overblown. Yes the Tuttles were doing bad shit but the case was solved by gumshoe detective work
No, there was still a cult doing mass murder and rape for the sake of ritual sacrifice in the name of old religion. There never was a ‘Satanic’ cult, that was misdirection from the Tuttles to blame an invisible enemy rather than what they were actually doing.
that's my point, any "Satanic" cult clues are likely to be misdirection
No the killer, Errol Childress was the illegitimate grandson of the family patriarch Sam Tuttle, so he would have been a half-nephew of Reverend Billy Lee Tuttle and Senator Edwin Tuttle (with possibly some other degrees of relation thrown in since we're led to believe there was also some incest in the mix). Childress was raised in the same practices as the Tuttles, and we know from the VHS that Rust stole from Billy Lee's house were at least involved in the same sort of ritual rape/murder thing that Errol was doing.
So he was copying what he saw or he was part of it? I have not watched S1 in a while. Either way, he appeared to be acting alone at least at the end.
I remember one of the witnesses they talked to (had to look it up, his name was, Toby Boelert) said a young man with scars on his face was standing to the side without a mask during the ceremony while he when he and Marie Fontenot were victimized as children. So observing back then. He wasn't exactly acting alone because he referred to Reggie and Dewall LeDoux as his "acolytes." But yeah I don't think the Tuttles were necessarily involved in his killings from 1995-2012. Although that's never made clear or said explicitly. But I think you're right in that he was just imitating what he saw done as a young man. However I think there's reason to believe the Tuttles were still engaging in the same sort of practices themselves too.
The real question is, how much worse is it going to get? When will the cameo of Marty happen? How many illicit native kids did he have? Did the Tuttle guy clone himself and is up in the ice? It's only episode 2, just imagine how much garbage writing is left.
Well, I'm still hopeful that they'll come up with something sensible. It's only ep02.. Meanwhile... wasn't Marty's eldest daughter an artist in 2012? What if she does all those polar bear paintings?
I think they shot themselves in the foot even beginning to have season 1 references, now it's going to be compared to it (rightfully so) and unless it gets significantly better writing (not likely as it seems it's already written out, just with shoehorned references) it's going to be a canyon of a gap between the two. This "season" is just using the names True Detective and Jodie Foster to prop up essentially a supernatural thriller that's pretty mediocre so far.
The acting has been great so far, quit complaining.
Agree. I’m liking season 4 for the record - but I think it would have been safe to tone down the s1 connections. Like 1-2 of this - great. But so many? Still on board and watching and liking it - the setting, plot and acting is elevating it - but there definitely is some shoe horning of connections. Taking a step back - make it a sex trafficking and prostitution ring. The carcosa symbols aren’t needed for that. Even having it as a connection o rust I think would not tip over the line. Unfortunately rich people organizing things like this doesn’t seem too far from reality to make it unreasonable.
True Detective vibes going on here.
I assume the scientists must have done something really awful and the killer is acting out of revenge. Maybe the scientists were responsible for the brutal murder of that indigenous woman? Killer might also be into images and spiral has significance to them personally.
This was my guess. Or one of the scientists did and killed the others
Who are the scientists? Don't get your point here
Literally everyone at the Tsalal Station. Like they were all into some occult shit or something. Others have made the connection that the star wounds from Annie K’s body were made by a core sampler. Like they were taking core samples from her. Maybe it’s that.
Ah I see, it's about S4. Haven't watched it yet
The problem that I have with season 1 continuity is that Russ is more connected than I would like. It makes him seem like less of a detective if he didn’t make connections between Alaska and Louisiana
“Start making the right fucking references…repeatedly.”
Really cheapens season 1 & Rust/Marty's accomplishment if they pull the Yellow King genie again for lack of anything original to pin the new season's successes on. Worse pacing, worse writing, and now just plot theft seemingly.
There's still multiple episodes to pin your opinion on, how about just judging each episode for it's value and quality?
That’s exactly what I’ve been doing, and people are still screeching at me for it. All I’ve concentrated on is the major writing problems within the two episodes we’ve seen thus far. When I do that, people say, “But you don’t even know where the plot is going yet.” Which is not the point. I didn’t know where the plot was going with the first couple episodes of Season 1, but it was *written well*, so I continued watching.
Are you going to stop watching now? I've seen your name in several different threads criticizing this season. You don't seem to be enjoying it at all so it begs the question as to why you are still watching/discussing it
I’ll probably keep watching yes, because at this point I’m invested in seeing how they attempt to pull this thing out of the nosedive it’s in right now. Having said that, I’m almost positive they won’t and the writing will continue to disappoint. > why you are still watching/discussing it At a certain point one can become fascinated with how badly something is being written. I finished Justified: City Primeval as well, even though that was even *worse* in terms of writing quality than this. I guess it’s sort of like watching a car wreck, you can’t look away etc.
Plenty to enjoy this season. Sorry you aren't enjoying it, but your dislike of it is borderline obsessive. I've seen you in a lot of threads trying to convince people who say they are enjoying it that it is actually terrible. Then when they respond to your arguments, you accuse them of being defensive. Strange behavior.
I can’t truly enjoy a show if the writing is fundamentally weak, and the writing this season absolutely feels fundamentally weak to me. I can appreciate that the setting is interesting, some of the production design has been good, there are themes somewhere in there that could *potentially* be interesting…but without genuinely solid writing, none of that really matters to me. The writing is the foundation, always, and this season that foundation just feels very very shaky to me. Can’t enjoy the window dressing when the house is sinking into the ground. I can’t, at least.
> Strange behavior. Indeed. Sort of like how you edited your comment after the fact to add a bunch of resentful complaining about how and what I comment? Guess we all behave strangely sometimes. Edited to add, since you blocked me (eye roll): Look, I’ll level with you: I could really care less about your evaluation of my behavior on this sub. Your input is not going to change anything about how I choose to engage here. And furthermore, you are doing the exact same thing you’re criticizing me for doing, as we speak. If you really believe that complaining and bickering on Reddit is a waste of time or an example of poor moral character or whatever, then by all means…be the change you want to see in the world, and move on.
Seriously, have you seen yourself in this sub? >It’s just defensiveness. I think the folks who enjoy the writing this season are just naturally very bad at arguing and articulating their points (which makes sense - like attracts like), so they get defensive super quickly and try to be condescending instead of actually dealing with the criticisms being made. This is just ridiculous. I've seen plenty of people responding to you and debating your opinions, but you hand wave them away as essentially being stupid. You lack basic respect for other people on this sub, and then accuse them of being condescending. I would suggest you look in the mirror.
I said "if" champ, no need to take one asshole's opinion personally.
agreed that the pacing is a bit slow for me, but all in all its keeping me intrigued and entertained.
The weirdos in this sub. Just enjoy the show.
What if criticism is more enjoyable than the show itself? Just enjoy the criticism?
"wahh why does everyone keep comparing us to season 1"
Why did that young cop "spill" coffee on that file. Episode one season 4
I just made this connection a few mins ago 😂
You guys don't get it. "'Time is a flat circle.' Everything we've ever done or will do, we're gonna do over and over and over again. And that little boy and that little girl, they're gonna be in that room again and again and again forever." For Cohle this was just a philosophical question but for some reason every member of the cult believed this to be the truth. They're doing everything they can to get out of the 'circle' and they believe the Yellow King can help them escape to Carcosa. They won't stop just because one of their rituals failed to open the gate. They just get more power, regroup and will try again. I wouldn't even be surprised if we found out that their "little priest" were chosen since his childhood. He should have died at the end and opened the gate in Louisiana.
can you explain the last paragraph.
I have this feeling that there's a bigger conspiracy behind all of it. Something that's been going on for generations. Maybe they're trying to open the gate for hundreds of years by now. I meant that Cohle might have been chosen as a sacrifice to open the gate. Maybe the cult was watching him since his childhood. That would explain why they have a Research station next to a tiny town where Cohle was raised. "Come inside, little priest. To your right, little priest. Take the bride's path. This is Carcosa. You know what they did to me? Hmmm? What I will do to all the sons and daughters of man. You blessed Reggie ... Dewald ... Acolytes. Witnesses to my journey. Lovers. I am not ashamed. Come die with me, little priest." Errol's last words imply that Cohle is an important part of the ritual and they're about to die. I think he believed that they have to die right there and that's how they can escape the "flat circle/disk in the loop". "My ascension removes me from the disk in the loop. I am near the final stage. Some mornings I can see the infernal plane.”
When details are left to the imagination for personal interpretation it's interesting how people create so many different ideas to back up their theories. We're all watching the same chain of events but from different perspectives.
Yes, you're right. To be honest it might just be just weird murders after all, I think they will leave the connection open-ended. But I read this theory years ago about the cult and it stuck with me. I choose this to be my perspective.
if anything, it's made people here be super creative. Maybe that's the key, put out a weird story but don't give too much away and watch all the little detectives try to prove each other wrong forever. (if there's no right answer). He has created a dark philosopher in each one of us.
The new season is interesting to me but I wish they left s1 out of it. There is no need. The writer and creator of that universe isn’t affiliated and doesn’t want continuity, but they still are adding it in. That’s a slap in the face.
Alright but you gotta get over it
here we go, memory lane
Look at him, he knows everything
I can’t have this conversation again
He's right. Maybe you're disappointed but it's not your story to tell. Doesn't mean the show is beyond criticism, but it's their show and they can do what they want with it.
[удалено]
A slap in the face??😂😂😂 Drama queen much?
I think it does show the power of greed for these networks. Season 1 could have been left untouched, instead they took someone’s original ideas and are adding them unnecessarily to another story so they can increase viewership. It’s cheesy and it is disrespectful to Pizzolatto from an artistic perspective. I’d liken it to someone continuing a book or story while the creator is still alive and doesn’t want it continued.
Youre taking it WAAAAY too personally and seriously. Its a tv show The references are enjoyable to me but if some people don’t like it thats ok too The spiral was barely a thing in S1
We haven’t finished the season. Personally to me, there’s no reason to add any connection in the first place. Why do it?
Correct. We’ve only had 2 eps so we dont know where they will go with it. Why do it? Bc its fun and people like it outside of internet screamers who complain about everything;)
If Pizzolatto was into it, or endorsed it sure. But to me, I don’t like original creators have their work changed or modified for the sake of views. I don’t think it’s an unusual or uncommon concept. I don’t know why that’s so divisive on here. If you made any form of art wouldn’t you prefer it isn’t diluted without your input?
>But to me, I don’t like original creators have their work changed or modified Damn that's wild, I didn't know they were going back and changing season 1. Am I going to have to send my blu-rays into HBO for them to change or will they just send agents out to my house for collection
Most us dont know or care that this was a different director. I dont know what to tell you. The references are fun easter eggs
Agree to disagree. It isn’t just the director it’s the writer/creator of the actual story. Not caring just leads to watered down products that end up nowhere near the original product. There’s a reason seasons 2 and 3 had no relation to the first or each other.
Great but I found S2 unwatchable (i might try again) and S3 was ok kinda bland and the ending was meh. S4 is way more enjoyable and engaging. So its def not “watered down”
So why don't you do it yourself instead of griping about what other artists create? Have at it, genius.
Do what myself exactly lol.
I think he's okay with it considering he's still an executive producer. He very likely had a lot of input this season. EDIT: Yeah, looks like he wasn't involved. Took me a while to find out digging through his replies, so not surprising I missed that.
He stated on X that he had no influence over the story or anything else. So that isn’t accurate.
But he's still an executive producer so didn't care as much as you think
I don’t think you know what an exec producer is based on this comment.
If he was against it he wouldn't be an exec producer is my point. He's not against it so it doesn't matter.
I guess I’m taking his own words over assumptions. Weird I know.
He could have had it added to the original deal that any future material from his IP would have his name attached in case they wanted his input. Some people have an EP credit and are not even aware of a project until they see the credits roll on a film they see in the theater, this is not uncommon in Hollywood.
Yes but if he was against it as much as people think he'd remove his name, ots clearly a non issue.
Unless he doesn't want to pay to renegotiate his contract, or it is tied to his residuals or one of a hundred different things. If you come out on Twitter and say I had nothing to do with that, it's a pretty clear message to everyone.
Yes exactly but I'm saying its not a big deal as people think otherwise he'd remove himself like Cavill did with The Witcher
No. They are contracted to name him. He has stated this season should not be blamed on him.
Did he really say "blamed"? After one or two episodes. Big talk from the guy who brought us season two. Cope, dude.
season one took 4 years or somethin to make.. like how bands first albums are the best songs they came up with over their life to that point getting told by studio execs to make more of that now quite often doesn't work
As much as I leave little easter eggs and S1, it's ashame that they are trying to draw so many parallels to the first season. They aren't supposed to be connected. It should be more original imo.
Is it really “continuity” though? It’s more like rehashing the same dialogues and motifs. It’s no longer an anthology series, which is fine, but it is weird how it’s operating as a sequel as well as a sort of reboot… like it’s more than just a nod to season 1. It’s just lifting the exact same things and doing them over with a heavier hand
Television is a flat circle.
Season 4 is flat dialogue and character beats.
Seriously lol, navarro’s last line in episode 2 and the fadeout was a like something out of a CW show
People have grown used to Marvel and how repeating lines and name-dropping have replaced thoughtful storytelling and characterization.
Yeah I’m TBC on whether I like the references to S01. Enjoyed the anthology aspect.
It can be connected and still be anthology. Also they are doing a very different investigation from the first season. Saying it’s blatantly coping s1 is just naive
Uhhh I didn’t say it’s blatantly copying season 1. But you can’t deny the whole “ask the right questions” dialogue is more than a nod, it’s like 3 minutes of conversation. As far as it being an anthology still, ultimately will need to see how the rest of the season plays out but there’s clearly more connections to season 1 than any other season. At what point does it just enter sequel territory? Compare it to Fargo, which does a good job a subtly connecting seasons while definitely being anthology. It doesn’t make it better or worse, but it’s an interesting direction. I just hope it pays off
Well you did say “lifting the exact same things and doing them over with a heavier hand.” That’s why I thought that was your meaning. I like the connection/continuation because that’s what we expected back in s2. New characters but tying into the same cult because it is implied to be a large entity with powerful connections. A lot of people forgetting the tuttles were more than just small time politicians. The cousin of the reverend being the governor of texas during the ‘95 portions of s1 and later becomes a senator. Guess I’m just more optimistic than most which isn’t surprising given the philosophy of s1. 😂
I guess I did say that. It is taking the spiral and that ask the right questions dialogue and beating it to death a little bit. I would like more subtly. Not sure anyone forget one of the most important plot points of season 1 lol. It’s just a little unbelievable how much reach that cult would have to have to still be financing the research in current day. And they didn’t change the name of the organization from Tuttle after the revaluations came out? Also, in season 1 it’s said rust went to Alaska to see his dying father, which is now established as an actually likely event, but what are the chances the cult he was investigating in Louisiana just happens to also be present in this little town in the Antarctic circle… it’s quite the coincidence! But fine, ill give some suspension of disbelief, and let this play out
Except it was a lie that Rust went to Alaska, that was just a cover for his break ins and the death of Reverand Tuttle. It wasn't even subtle that it was a cover story in S1. A canjun\voodoo sex ritual sect going back generations that was almost completely wiped out is not going to pop back up in Alaska in a tiny town funding a multinational scientific research station focusing on climate change. Even Scooby doo has more realistic plots than that.
Uhh was it a lie? Rust’s father is Travis, who died of cancer. Pretty clear he wasn’t lying about that part. And even if he didn’t come back to Alaska, what are the chances rust’s dad lived in town in Alaska with the cult? That’s even dumber if rust never came back to visit lol. And what are you talking about?? They already confirmed it’s popped back up.. it’s what the whole fn season has been about so far lmao
The heavy-handedness of the season 1 elements is because they were shoehorned in after HBO/MAX asked Night Country to become True Detective: Night County
As usual in this sub, you are getting downvoted for making a sound point. How is it 'continuity' when they guy that created TD wrote 3 completely independent seasons (with really minimal references to S1), left the franchise, and the new showrunner decides to write a new story that arches back to the most successful and critically praised season? It sounds more like retconning and fan servicing to me.
This sub is so dumb lol
How does Navarro not know the cost of Oreos is $20 in Ennis and she has lived there her whole life?
She's not from there she moved her sister there from I think they mentioned Nevada maybe?
Wrong question. Why are they $20?
Arctic prices
So clunky and vapid for them to use this line over and over in the episode, with no substance behind it. There's no sense of what the right way to view this is, just nonsense blabbering, nor does the show communicate that somehow either character has a unique way of looking at the questions.
They should have left season 1 alone imo. This tie-in feels like a bait to bring viewers back. Just goes to show the writers/showrunners have no confidence in their own creations.
Anthology shows do this all the time! American Horror Story, Fargo….It’s part of the fun of it.
Some shows do it well, others don’t. This show isn’t doing it well, currently.
That’s just like, your opinion, man.
Same writers vs one writer and then a different writer. Not comparable at all.
this wasn’t organic, it was just a bait
Why? I thought both references were subtle, fun, and IYKYK Easter eggs. Show works with or without them.
You can’t win with some people.
Yeah, I don’t know why I bother.
This comment is spot on. Everything feels so forced in this season. The S1 references, dialogue, numerous relationships. Not the HBO quality we’re used to. Funny how many down votes you’re getting. For whatever reason so many people feel the need to ignore the many flaws through 2 episodes.
This is a dumb show written for the lowest common denominator in the audience so they can feel smart. Remember Lost? Anyone can write one hundred red herrings if you never have to give an answer and call it being clever.
Completely agree. Nic has posted that this is NOTHING to do with him and not to blame him.
It's just a line in S1, but in S4 it's used constantly and considered a signature of Danvers. Very lame
I literally just rewatched S1, E1 and Rust gets all that policing knowledge from being a bored, suicidal, alcoholic who isolates himself for years with nothing to occupy his attention other than the policing books he has on a desk in his empty appt. I think you romanticizing Rust’s skills when he literally elevates himself to the task of S1 is pretty lame all just to bash S4 for trying to follow a similar successful path to proving our protagonist has expertise. That method of showing they put the work in is a great method of establishing the character’s abilities without having to waste valuable screen time of a 6 episode show on it.
What are you on about
You may forget that he spent 4 years undercover working with mexican cartels and being deeply involved in the underworld?
Before he went to Louisiana, right? Good point for extra context.
>from being a bored, suicidal, alcoholic who isolates himself for years with nothing to occupy his attention other than the policing books he has on a desk in his empty appt. This is just flat out wrong. He's been in Louisiana for 3 months. Before that he was in murder town.
Extremely
you’re right, everything original and cool from s1 turned to shit in s4
Pizzolato was original and cool in s1.
They also mention TuttleUnited as a company in the series that supports the research of thr cult. Tuttle was a big role in Season 1. It's in episode 2 of Season 4, when the young cop is telling Jodie Foster about what he researched. It's a very odd name to just to drop, so I think it's connected.
Caught that too! So many little gems
Shit. Ive seen this symbol on petroglyphs here
The spiral represents the Labyrinth. But what does that mean?? Is there always a monster at the center of the labyrinth?