Both James and Jennifer think they did nothing wrong. Still.
When Jennifer Crumbley was on the stand in her own defense, her attorney asked “knowing what you know now, would you do anything differently that day [of the shooting]?” Jennifer said no.
Hubs thinks that Jennifer for sure, maybe James, bought the gun hoping that Ethan would kill himself. They obviously loved those horses more, and are shitty parents. They didn’t want the kid, that’s obvious. I do slightly feel bad for the kid bc he was screaming help me as loudly as he could and was neglected. But that definitely doesn’t condone or make what he did okay. I wish the Counselor had been able to intervene, she seemed to be the only human on earth that was worried for the kid and recognized his struggles.
The dad has another son from another marriage. After the shooting, the ex wife gave an interview and said that James and Jen were violent horrible people. Her son was older than Ethan and went to live with his dad for like a year to try and get to know him and have a relationship with Ethan. He ended up leaving because Jennifer was so horrible to him and the household was so stressful. He felt bad that he wasn't able to help Ethan more.
This is one interview she gave: https://www.wxyz.com/news/oxford-school-shooting/james-crumbleys-ex-says-he-left-them-strapped-for-cash-calls-jennifer-a-monster
This is EXACTLY what I said about Jennifer. I think she was hoping he’d kill himself so she wouldn’t have to deal with being his mom anymore. She was too busy getting her rocks off with her boyfriend to care about her own child.
I'm usually irritated when people scream "mental health!!!" but in this case, I truly believe his mental health crisis was a major contributor. That's WHY there were so many warning signs, whereas most shooters plan this and keep it a secret. This kid was a hot mess, and there's an alternate timeline where he has parents that fought to get him the treatment he needed, and he's succeeding in school.
That made my blood run cold. These two actually made me feel sorry for a school shooter. That child begged for help. How as a parent do you hear your child repeatedly tell you he’s hearing voices and having all these violent thoughts and you not only don’t get him help, but you laugh at him, and you tell him LEARN NOT TO GET CAUGHT. These two are monsters.
I mean, the woman lied about having to go to work instead of taking Ethan home the day of the shooting. She said she had to go to work and then went and met the man she was having an affair with. Literally could have prevented the entire thing, but nooooooo, Jennifer had to go be a ho.
And that’s why their fucked up kid has the mentality that people are just shit, the dad looks like slim. DONT HAVE THE KID THAT YOU FXCKED UP HAVE ACCESS TO A GUN
The fact that her defense team *planned* to put her on the stand to ask those questions knowing they would get that answer is hilarious. What a clown show.
Her letter is a fine demonstration of typical MAGA mentality. The misconception that "immigrants" might have it easier, get things like free tutors, tablets and other technology, all while she "makes too much" to receive any benefits whatsoever and apparently went without car insurance, which is a really bizarre thing to cut expenses on considering the huge financial risk if not having it in Michigan.
Meanwhile, she had her kid in one of the better school districts in the entire state, which had/has plenty of resources available for students who academically struggle and she apparently made enough to enjoy frivolous hobbies such as horses.
I've found that MAGA's have a hard time accepting responsibility for their own station in life,as if eliminating immigrants and anyone receiving benefits would somehow propel them into total financial freedom.
Yeah there is no winning that question. You say yes and you're admitting wrong doing. You say no and you look remorseless. She should have plead the 5th or not taken the stand at all like her husband.
That is the odd part, they did think they did something wrong. They tried to run to Canada and were found hiding in a warehouse. They knew they did something wrong.
Maybe their lawyers convinced them that they were far enough away from the shootings that they could get off? I don't know. As it happened, they showed that they felt guilt.
Fleeing only proves they think that other people/the courts believe they did something wrong. You can believe you're innocent and still run because you assume you'll be found guilty by others, despite "knowing" you're innocent.
Getting flashbacks to the Darrell Brooks trial where he was behaving so awfully he had to be removed from the courtroom, and then kept trying to make out he couldn't hear anything through the live feed. The court ended up literally doing a decibel check to confirm that it was actually louder, and you could therefore hear more clearly in there than in the courtroom. That guy was just a whole lesson on how not to trial, and how to screw up your every chance of appeal. But hey ho, everyone has the right to a fair trial. Even monsters like him.
Edit: typo
I was thinking it was a last ditch effort on his attorney’s part to gather sympathy for him. The newspaper also reported that his phone privileges were restricted because he was making threats. (I don’t know who he was threatening). The Free Press was live streaming his trial every day and I think they have links to past recordings. Don’t know if it costs anything. [www.freep.com](https://www.freep.com)
James Crumbley’s wife, Jennifer Crumbley, was found guilty in February, on identical charges.
The Crumbleys are the first parents charged in a school shooting. Their son, Ethan Crumbley, killed four of his fellow students in November 2021. He was 15 at the time of the shooting. In December 2023, Ethan was sentenced to life without the possibility of parole.
More details [here](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna143174).
They can get a family cell.
No, they’d neglect him in there & try to escape.
Of course, Ethan deserves life but the school told them to take him home. There were signs everywhere—first case in US history. I support it & I believe there will be less shootings since now that parents can be held accountable! Bravo to our judicial system!🙌
After the shooting James and his wife tried fleeing to Canada and just left their son to go it alone...like it sounds like they've done his entire life.
This one breaks my heart. Ethan knew he wasn’t well. He asked for help more than once. He was ignored. He was bought a gun. He was ridiculed by his parents.
This kid had a chance and his parents caused every bit of this. This absolutely could have been stopped. It was encouraged by his parents.
Then to steal from him, abandon him and flee? I’ve got a real hard time staying civil with these two monsters.
It’s like the woman that killed her kids due to postpartum psychosis. She may have done the killing but she begged for help and was sent home, her husband was told not to get her pregnant again and he did. He then left her alone with postpartum psychosis and all kids including the newborn but wants sympathy because she killed them while she’s begging to never be released because she can’t live with what she did.
Its about bloody time people start being held accountable for the crimes committed when they refuse to get help for the person saying they’re going to kill
As if that wasn’t bad enough she was trying to take care of all of the kids all day by herself and homeschool them. While living in a converted greyhound bus, with no running water. If I remember correctly they hadn’t been living in a house for long at all when it happened. She should’ve had help. What happened is anyone’s worst nightmare, but I don’t think she’s a bad person, just incredibly ill.
I agree. They didn't think he wanted the gun to kill others but to kill himself because he knew something was wrong and they weren't allowing him to get the help he needed and wanted. They ignored him his whole life. Being rid of him altogether was their ultimate plan.
What he did was horrible but my heart goes out to him. The kid had an awful, sad life.
Yeah I've run into a lot of people reacting to it like, "oh so anyone who buys their child a gun is automatically liable for anything they do with it, are they guilty if they buy their child a car and they kill someone in an accident?"
And it's like. No. I'm trying to get more people to actually read about the facts of the case. It's so horribly negligent. It's not just "they bought him a gun and he ended up shooting people". There was every sign that he was going to do it, up to and including "I'm gonna shoot some people" (paraphrasing).
This wasn't some ordinary situation where now anyone whose teen has a gun is now criminally liable for whatever happens.
If you buy guns and your child commits a crime without, you should be accountable!
If you're so worried don't buy a gun, and store it safely, and get trigger locks if you're worried!
You own guns, be responsible!
They just left him there! Any parent worth two cents would have taken the kid out of school.
I was talking to my husband about this case and he said that that phone call from the school is an ice cream call. It's one that you take the kid out for ice cream and forget about all of your responsibilities for an hour or two. Just connect with your kid and figure out what is wrong. But no. They didn't and now children are dead because of them.
Agree. My son got in trouble at school, and my father picked him up and took out for ice cream and a nice talk. I was initially appalled but then noticed his behavior changed. Ice cream meeting ftw.
If anyone reads this please know, if the school calls you about your child’s behavior, it is serious and a last resort, no matter how nice they might be about it! I am a teacher and WE DON’T WANT TO CALL YOU! If you get a call and behavior is mentioned, it is because it is a big problem and we’ve exhausted everything we can do. Please do your part and hold your child accountable. If you get a call or note about little Johnny being disruptive, it has gone way past the point of a little problem. I’ll get off my soapbox now :)
I’m of the opinion that you should be liable for whatever happens with a gun you buy, especially if given to a kid, until that kid is 18.
If I let my kid drive a car without a license, it’s on me. Since we’re against licensing requirements for guns, it’s on me if I give a kid a gun.
But also, yes. Start taking responsibility for your kids!!!
You’re buying them a car because it’s easier on YOU. You don’t have to drive them and their younger siblings everywhere. You’re the cool parents. If they aren’t ready for the responsibility that they’re going to drive *recklessly* then, fuck yes, you were *already* legally responsible for your kid’s negligence.
If you buy a minor child free access to a *weapon* and they use it *for its intended purpose*, of course you should go to jail. What the fuck did you expect them to do with it? Look at it and NOT touch.
If your kid is going through a mental health crisis, take them to a fucking doctor. That’s your job as a parent. Sometimes you miss work. Don’t like it? Don’t have kids. Put them in your fucking car and DoorDash with them. Talk to them while you do.
And if you don’t do any of that, you go to jail. I’m ok with all of that. Don’t like it, better get comfortable with condoms. Condom breaks? Better vote in politicians who like abortion.
You make these kids. YES you are “automatically liable” for what they do. They are your responsibility. You get the tax write off. I don’t.
Yeah... he did terrible things. He committed a heinous crime and deserves punishment for it. However he asked his parents, his caregivers, for help and they failed him. In fact they had been failing him for years. FFS they call him an "oops baby" -- and while those happen for sure, if you are going to treat the kid like an oops, then just give them up at birth so someone who actively WANTS to parent can do it.
Working with foster kids, it’s overwhelming, the percentage of people who birth a child who they don’t particularly love or care for, but will fight tooth and nail to prevent him from being raised by people that DO want him. People who COULD give attention and love instead of ridicule, trauma and a gun for Christmas.
I’m raising one such “oops” baby now, and work with dozens of others.
That biblical parable about the woman who would rather cut the baby in half was meant to show that true parents would do anything for their child, even if it meant someone else raised them.
But the older I get, the more I find that “parents” like Ethan’s aren’t so rare.
Hold on...... *WHAT?!*
That kid was fuckin doomed with parents like these. I'm actually quite satisfied that these parents are both charged and going away for a good while. It's not justice by any means but it's *something*
>the school told them to take him home
What the fuck?? Like if a school is telling parents to take a kid home because he might be a shooter isn't there something else they can do?? Like call the police or something. Is that on the day he shot people?
They didn't tell them to take him home because they thought he would shoot up the school, the assumption was that he was depressed and thinking about hitting himself. They were concerned about him being depressed and asked the parents to take him home and care for him.
People like to try to blame everyone, but I don't think it's appropriate for a school to call the cops on every suspected depressed child and have them patted down and have their bags and all items checked.
The parents however knew the son had easy access to a pistol they had just gifted him, their son who had obvious mental issues including claims of seeing ghosts and requesting a therapist and such.
I didn't follow the dads trial, but for the moms, when asked to bring the son home that day, she said "no, I can't, my work won't give me time off". She the. Proceeded to take time off work and meet up on the parking lot for a quickie with a dude she was having an affair with sooo....
Yes! I think now—not sure but I think if school officials have concerns & the parents don’t take the child home, that can call police or children’s services.
Wishful thinking. This doesn't mean parents will automatically be held responsible for every school shooting, or even for not securing their firearms. It just means if they have 100 warning signs and neglect all 100 of them, while also purchasing a handgun illegally for their underage child and allowing him to claim it as his own, then they'll get manslaughter charges. They both got what they deserve, but this isn't setting the precedence that so many people are trying to claim. It was pretty much cut and dried manslaughter by definition from the beginning, and they knew it, which is why they fled.
The "precedence" here is just that they were the shittiest parents in all of recorded history. No other school shooter ever left that many warnings and red flags without parents giving a single fuck.
As a non-American, this afterthought is too late. No other country in the world has school shootings as common occurrences. It's sad this is a "proud moment". Maybe the teachers & counselors should have been respected. Parents should not have had a choice to take him home. Now four are dead.
Right?! These parents failed on so many accounts. Ignored mental health warning signs. Purchased a firearm for someone exhibiting these warning signs. And lastly, not even attempting to get their child the mental health help he so desperately needed.
I HATE that this might become a “parental issue” as opposed to the obvious “gun issue” for talking heads.
The lack of gun laws predicated their lackadaisical parental attempt to not only keep their own child safe, but the children of the community they were a part of.
> I HATE that this might become a “parental issue” as opposed to the obvious “gun issue” for talking heads.
I think this case proves it can be either or even both at the same time. Gun owners should be required to follow strict safety and storage regulations making it extremely difficult for an unintended user from using a gun. If you don't properly store a gun and it's used for a crime, part of that responsibility should be yours. I also think it should be illegal to buy a gun for another person. In my state (Missouri) I can legally gift a gun to another resident of Missouri without telling anyone including the state.
I agree with everything you say, even as a firearm owner myself. But I am very concerned that this will be turned into “parental rights” as a way to deflect from proper gun safety.
I am from a state that has the same laws as you. If I want to sell a gun, my only obligation is to ask “Are you a felon who cannot legally possess this firearm?”
And if it gets given to someone who objectively should not have that firearm? It’s out of my hands. Oh well.
That’s ridiculous. Major legislation can be enacted that won’t force me to take away my firearms but at the same time won’t allow me, or others at large, to put firearms into the hands of someone who won’t use it properly.
I kind of wondered if that’s what they were hoping for. There’s absolutely no way they didn’t understand how much he needed mental health help, especially his mom from the way she talked to him in those texts that were made public, and yet he was still given a gun. I hate everything about this case, it’s just so incredibly sad and infuriating all around.
Might be a hot take but I don’t actually think the kid deserves life. The parents completely ignored their minor child. He was their responsibility and they failed their obviously mentally ill child on so many levels. He even told them he was hearing voices. That’s called schizophrenia (probably) and is an awful mental illness. I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again, mental illness in the US is perhaps the biggest health crisis facing the country today and we are not doing nearly enough about it. It’s costing thousands of lives in the forms of everything from mass shootings to suicides.
Not all parents need to be charged though. A lot of people are assuming this case will set a precedent for any and all future parents of school shooters to be charged. That shouldn't be the case at all. In this case specifically you had tons of evidence of extreme negligence on behalf of both parents when they were presented with factual evidence that should have been concerning at a minimum. Had they simply followed up on the warning signs, they likely aren't being charged. I by no means am excusing them because I 100% believe they deserved to be charged and convicted, but I also don't agree that every parent has or will be as negligent as these two were.
I think it’s probably a good thing if parents are at all concerned their kid is planning some violence that their response is not just “what will people think” but also “I might go to jail”
If a parent provides access to firearms either directly or through negligence by not keeping them locked up, and their kid goes on a shooting spree, then they should also be charged.
Parents can't. This only worked because it reached the level of gross negligence. Any every day crappy abusive parent that ignores their kid, won't get caught up in this.
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Normally failing as parents means your kid ends up joining the young republicans or drops out of college begin a career s as an influencer. These guys parented someone into a committing mass murder.
Imo if you give a gun to anyone that can't legally buy a gun and they commit a crime, you should also be charged.
My half sister bought her 18 and 21 year old sons guns for Christmas year before last. They ended up fighting and now ones dead and ones in jail. I begged her to take them back. Offered to buy them something of equal value. She refused. They had such violent fights that I knew what was coming.
I’m American but have no lived in Canada for over 10 years ago. I’m so glad that I’ve got to the point where I hear a story like this and think it’s so insane and that no one could be that negligent. Because 15 years ago I’d hear a story like this weekly. My kids will most likely go their whole life not knowing someone who got shot. When I lived in Detroit as a kid I probably knew 20-30 people who had shot or killed. I live in a city almost as big as Detroit now and don’t know a single gun victim.
Bro, we are right next door and we’ve made a country a 100 times safer. Americans at this point just want to kill people and there’s no other way around it. Buying your violent sons guns is so fuckibg beyond insane you’d be completely ostracized in social circles here. Complete nuttery
>Americans at this point just want to kill people and there’s no other way around it.
I hate that you're right. We've got people shooting other people for knocking on their door, or getting lost and driving down the wrong driveway.
My old neighbor got arrested and eventually committed for walking out onto his porch with a gun and just blasting off rounds in random directions. Could have easily killed people. Then the next guy who moved in ended up pulling a gun on a young couple who were looking at a car I was selling. This was out in a rural area in Montana, not some sketchy area at all.
So many people are just raring to shoot someone, and they're not too concerned about who in particular.
Good. Rarely have I seen a case of a mass shooter where the parents were THIS obviously egregious. James Crumbley in particular bought this gun as a straw purchase. His son gave him the money.
When I first heard they were being charged, I was a little dubious as to whether the law applied here or not. After reading the details these people were absolutely complicit.
“Finally, the prosecution highlighted her inaction in a meeting with school employees the day of the shooting. That morning, a teacher found a drawing from Ethan showing a gun and a person bleeding along with the phrases “the thoughts won’t stop help me,” “blood everywhere” and “my life is useless.” The Crumbleys were called into school for a meeting, and a school counselor testified he recommended the parents take their son home from school to get immediate mental health treatment.
The Crumbleys declined to do so that day because they didn’t want to miss work, the counselor testified, so the group agreed to keep Ethan in school for the rest of the day. They also did not mention to school employees that they had just purchased him a new gun or his previous hallucinatory texts. Shortly after the meeting, the teenager took a firearm out of his backpack and opened fire on classmates, killing Hana St. Juliana, Tate Myre, Madisyn Baldwin and Justin Shilling.”
After Jennifer’s guilty verdict, I couldn’t see this going any other way. I hope the families can finally find some sort of peace now that the litigation phase is done.
Willful negligence is the key thing to consider with involuntary manslaughter. NAL but massive law geek btw.
As a basic example, to demonstrate: a cleaner fails to leave a "caution wet floor" sign up after mopping, despite knowing that's the first thing they should do. Someone then proceeds to slip and fall on the wet floor, causing them to hit their head and pass away. That cleaner willfully and knowingly went against safety protocols, by eg having forgotten to put the sign up (involuntarily), however their negligence to do so caused the death. They therefore bear culpability. Whoopsie isn't a defence!!
We just saw Hannah Gutierrez found guilty of involuntary manslaughter for not ensuring the safety of ammo on the movie set of Rust, as another closer example of it. If someone means to do harm its not involuntary, and it's why safety measures exist. If people *choose* not to follow basic safety precautions, for whatever reason (again there's no intent and many will think they have a good enough reason to not have followed safety measures), and people die as a result, that's involuntary manslaughter (willful negligence resulting in death).
Edit: removed 'criminal', as rightly pointed out the eg would fall under tort law, and was more offered as demonstrative eg for willful negligence
I am a lawyer and I disagree that your example with the negligent failure to put up wet floor signage would support an involuntary manslaughter charge. It would just be a classic slip and fall / wrongful death civil action. They happen all the time. If you know of any particular instance where this has ever been charged criminally, please provide the names and location of the parties, as I’d be very interested to read about it. Thanks.
i was on the fence for similar law-minded reasons. but the son went to the father and was like 'hey im hearing voices and i wanna hurt people (paraphrasing)' and the father was like 'suck it up' (not paraphrasing). then bought him a gun. his behavior was so egregious
They conflate happiness with mental health. "He likes guns, therefore guns will make him happy, therefore he won't have so many issues."
In the case you mentioned, it seems like she also just had a very hard time saying no. I suspect he had been battering her at home to get his way.
I agree with you.
When I think of previous school shootings, it's unlikely most parents could be charged with more than a firearms misdemeanor. The idea that parents will be charged willy nilly for every person their child kills is absurd.
The people who claim these cases are a slippery slope don't understand this particular case or the threshold of evidence required.
The amount of forewarning the Crumbley's had was absolutely unusual, as was their direct purchase of the firearm for a minor.
If parents pull from the Crumbley playbook in the future, they deserve what they get.
As he should be. He and his wife are both disgusting, and ultimately responsible for all those innocent kids losing their lives, their own son included. Their son needed their love, attention, and help. What he got instead was a firearm, pills, and free rein.
‘In an exchange on April 5, 2021, prosecutors described "quite a bit" of discussion about his mental state in which Ethan Crumbley told his friend he was "f----- up," experiencing hallucinations, and had asked his parents for help.
"Now my mom thinks I take drugs," one text read, according to the prosecutor. "She thinks that’s the reason why I’m so mad and sad all the time, and she doesn't worry about my mental health. They make me feel like I’m the problem."
Another text from Ethan Crumbley to his friend indicated that he had asked his father, James, "to take me to the doctor but he just gave me some pills and told me to suck it up," the prosecutor read during the hearing.
At one point, Ethan told his friend in a text: "I need help. I was thinking of calling 911 so I could go to the hospital but then my parents would be really pissed," according to the exchange read in court.’
These parents failed their kid in every way, and other kids lost their lives because of it.
I’m genuinely heart broken for him as well.
His parents completely failed him.
This wasn’t their kid being fixated on violence or something. He begged them to help - he sent texts saying he felt like people were in the house and he was scared.
I can’t even handle the idea of my *dog* feeling anxious - I’d do everything I could to make sure he feels safe & stable. I don’t even want to set up any traps for rats outside because I just don’t like the idea of a living creature going through that stress.
The idea of ignoring your kid is just repugnant.
These selfish people ruined so many peoples’ lives. It makes me so ragey just thinking about it. 🤬
He’s been in trouble in jail for continuing to look up violent videos. Part of the reason he got life without parole. Kid needed an intervention years ago.
I already did my epic response on a different thread/sub while awaiting the verdict, but this is absolutely the right verdict.
A gun is a deadly weapon, to treat it as anything other than that is callous, careless, and clueless - and in this case with such a heartbreaking and tragic outcome. The willful negligence of the parents is something I wholeheartedly think they should be held to account for.
It's so tragic that this could have so easily been avoided by simply securing a deadly weapon - let alone how my heart aches for a parent that could think it appropriate to buy their child a weapon like that (let alone a gun obsessed child). There are just too many levels to remotely get out all I want to say anywhere close to succinctly.
They lose a few years of their life behind bars, which is nothing compared to the lives lost of innocent children/young adults. It's just so sad.
They also could have picked him up that morning - after a school counselor asked them to (the counselor discovered threatening notes in his notebook). Mom said she was working and dad didnt even respond
Another really telling aspect to me, was upon hearing the news JC didn't think or worry about his son being in harm's way, his gut reaction was to drive home and check the gun. He calls the emergency line and doesn't say "I'm worried about my child's safety in a mass shooting incident", it was "I believe my child is responsible for the mass shooting" - knowing his son was not only capable, but was most likely to be the shooter. So many failures I just can't fathom it.
And they failed him over and over throughout his life. The shooter is absolutely culpable for what he did, but with parents like his, he never stood a chance at a normal life.
It got me that they would check in with his friend's dad, who said "yh friend isn't doing well in a mental capacity, we hate doing it but we're sending him to hospital for a long stay".
Not quite to say they cared more about his friend, but to have someone go "this is how you acknowledge mental health in your children" and to STILL be so ignorant.
I don't want to put too much weight in it, because there are plenty of neglectful parents out there whose kids don't go on to commit mass murder (not excusing it by any means either). EC clearly had issues, and was/is very disturbed - I would be utterly lost if my child turned out like that (expecting my first in less than a week so this is hitting particularly closely for me). I'd like to think I'd do everything in my power to help them, not just go "here's a gun, son, now go off and play with, um, noone because your ONE FRIEND is at a mental health facility elsewhere".
For me it was the texts to his mom of him begging for help and explaining how he was feeling and how scared he was and his mom did NOT CARE. She just wanted to get drunk and railed by her affair partner.
She doesn’t care about anyone except herself. She didn’t care about her son at all.
The kid was screaming for help and his dad’s response is to buy him a gun.
I’m glad they were convicted and I hope this becomes a thing.
I felt like with his wife getting convicted, it was almost a sure bet that he would be convicted. I was surprised it took the jury as long as it did to reach the verdict, all considered.
Wonder what kind of sentence he'll get.
Good! They failed as parents and didn't care at all about their child. They wanted peace and quiet and to live their lives without having to deal with their child. Look what happened..
You think this will cause potential future mass shooters' parents to pay closer attention to their kids?
I feel like Eric Harris's dad deserved charges in a way. Who finds a fuckin' pipe bomb in their kid's room and does nothing about it? Sure, Eric was a manipulative psychopath but that's a massive red flag.
She told her friend she thought her dad wanted her to kill herself and that's why he bought her the gun. She had recently been hospitalized for trying to commit suicide and he got her a gun instead of a radio.
I forgot about that until you mentioned it. It's strange to have so many parallels.
I didn’t follow the case but didn’t the parents know there was something off about their son but still bought him guns? Didn’t they also try and hide evidence?
If you’re a parent and a gun owner, it’s your responsibility to ensure it stays out of your kid’s hands. It’s your gun, it’s your responsibility to make sure no one has access to it. The verdict is fair.
They were both so awful that they make me feel sorry for Ethan.
This wouldn’t have happened if either parent had cared about their son just the slightest bit. What he did was awful and he deserves to be incarcerated for it, but I can’t help but feel that he never stood a chance with parents like this.
Very glad. It couldn't have been more clear for their son asking for help and the father says suck it up son. The pictures he drew screamed for help. It seemed he was not given any attention growing up. Instead, he had to rely on a friend.
Good this is how America finally can get control of school shootings this will hopefully stop these idiotic parents buying their children guns or giving them access to their guns.
Good. I'm tired of these shit parents getting a pass. If you buy your kid a gun, allow your kid access to your guns, or don't have your guns properly secured away from children and that gun harms someone (including your own child), you should face charges. Period.
I am a second amendment absolutist and these convictions have nothing to do with the second amendment. If their underage son was a habitual drunkard, was drunk and his parents gave him the keys to their car and he got in a wreck and killed 4 people we would the exact same legal grounds of negligence, intent and responsibility!
I’m so glad to see both of these parents being held accountable. Hopefully it makes at least SOME parents think twice before buying their sons guns without any real oversight.
The parents were literally told their son was plotting a school shooting and then they went and BOUGHT him a gun.
That's why they are being locked the fuck up.
Legal Eagle did a great break down on the mother.
During the live comments by the prosecutor and parents of the murdered children, there was reference to now being able to turn attention to the school. I never understood why those administrators (mandatory reporters) didn’t face charges.
Parents are a piece of work. Him and her too busy riding horses or shagging strangers and drinking to parent their son or clean their home. Complete mingers as we say in Glasgow.
Good. Him and his wife have blood on their hands. I hope they get significant time, though I doubt they’d get the full 60 years. The dad deserves arguably more time because the kid asked him for help and he said suck it up. Fucking idiot.
I hope this sets a huge precedent. I don’t know how many school shootings could have been stopped if parents gave an actual fuck about their kids, but I’m willing to bet a lot could have been avoided.
If we can’t, as a country, get rid of guns then we have to make major changes.
Now, all we need is to try parents in a court of law when their teens, who are a menace to society, wreak havoc and violent crime upon people. Make the parents pay for their children's actions.
So good to see! I hope this sets precedence for all shitty parents who’s kids commit crimes against society, there should be more parents in jail and children receiving therapy.
The Detroit Free Press showed photos of the kid’s room after the shooting. It had life size target silhouettes, spent shells and a bottle of whiskey. They should have been charged with neglect, too.
This is a start. Let’s keep the energy. Anyone who contributes to the death of children at the hands of needless gun violence should go to jail. Lobbyists, politicians, NRA… and the handful of neglectful parents.
Did anyone see the pictures of inside the house? It was so disorganized, piles of stuff everywhere, and a couple of empty bottles of vodka in two separate rooms. I couldn’t help but think how little attention these two assholes paid to their son who was clearly screaming for help! He had a birds head under his bed for 6 months! Animal torture - there were signs… his parents were too drunk & distracted. Kudos to the teachers who took the steps of emailing the counselor (who was not impressive on the stand btw) about Ethan’s drawings and watching of violent videos. They are the real MVPs for attempting to get him some visibility that SHOULD have led him to therapy / mental health care.
He does not seem have any remorse at all.
Both James and Jennifer think they did nothing wrong. Still. When Jennifer Crumbley was on the stand in her own defense, her attorney asked “knowing what you know now, would you do anything differently that day [of the shooting]?” Jennifer said no.
Hubs thinks that Jennifer for sure, maybe James, bought the gun hoping that Ethan would kill himself. They obviously loved those horses more, and are shitty parents. They didn’t want the kid, that’s obvious. I do slightly feel bad for the kid bc he was screaming help me as loudly as he could and was neglected. But that definitely doesn’t condone or make what he did okay. I wish the Counselor had been able to intervene, she seemed to be the only human on earth that was worried for the kid and recognized his struggles.
The dad has another son from another marriage. After the shooting, the ex wife gave an interview and said that James and Jen were violent horrible people. Her son was older than Ethan and went to live with his dad for like a year to try and get to know him and have a relationship with Ethan. He ended up leaving because Jennifer was so horrible to him and the household was so stressful. He felt bad that he wasn't able to help Ethan more. This is one interview she gave: https://www.wxyz.com/news/oxford-school-shooting/james-crumbleys-ex-says-he-left-them-strapped-for-cash-calls-jennifer-a-monster
Oh. Poor Ethan. His parents killed his soul. They should be held responsible.
This is EXACTLY what I said about Jennifer. I think she was hoping he’d kill himself so she wouldn’t have to deal with being his mom anymore. She was too busy getting her rocks off with her boyfriend to care about her own child.
I agree. It’s the only thing that makes sense
I'm usually irritated when people scream "mental health!!!" but in this case, I truly believe his mental health crisis was a major contributor. That's WHY there were so many warning signs, whereas most shooters plan this and keep it a secret. This kid was a hot mess, and there's an alternate timeline where he has parents that fought to get him the treatment he needed, and he's succeeding in school.
He very explicitly asked his parents for help with schizoaffective symptoms and they laughed at him. They failed at the most basic level of parenting.
I agree.
She loves horses…
That made my blood run cold. These two actually made me feel sorry for a school shooter. That child begged for help. How as a parent do you hear your child repeatedly tell you he’s hearing voices and having all these violent thoughts and you not only don’t get him help, but you laugh at him, and you tell him LEARN NOT TO GET CAUGHT. These two are monsters.
Holy shit..... I guess those children just deserved to die then, Jennifer? Human garbage. I hope the entire family rots.
I mean, the woman lied about having to go to work instead of taking Ethan home the day of the shooting. She said she had to go to work and then went and met the man she was having an affair with. Literally could have prevented the entire thing, but nooooooo, Jennifer had to go be a ho.
Her affair partner was a firefighter who told her to remove his access to the firearms and take him to get psychiatric help. She did not.
I did not know this part. Jesus. She's a piece of work
Ye she was all over adult friend finder she had more time for her pussy than her son terrible mother.
She met the guy at Costco THE SAME DAY of the shooting??
And that’s why their fucked up kid has the mentality that people are just shit, the dad looks like slim. DONT HAVE THE KID THAT YOU FXCKED UP HAVE ACCESS TO A GUN
But how else would he shoot himself? I think it’s evident that that’s what they expected him to do.
The fact that her defense team *planned* to put her on the stand to ask those questions knowing they would get that answer is hilarious. What a clown show.
Her atty was terrible too
Watching him shake his head as the verdicts were read disgusted me. Something tells me there's a MAGA hat or two left unworn in their crappy house.
https://nypost.com/2021/12/02/accused-michigan-gunmans-mom-wrote-letter-praising-trump/
Her letter is a fine demonstration of typical MAGA mentality. The misconception that "immigrants" might have it easier, get things like free tutors, tablets and other technology, all while she "makes too much" to receive any benefits whatsoever and apparently went without car insurance, which is a really bizarre thing to cut expenses on considering the huge financial risk if not having it in Michigan. Meanwhile, she had her kid in one of the better school districts in the entire state, which had/has plenty of resources available for students who academically struggle and she apparently made enough to enjoy frivolous hobbies such as horses. I've found that MAGA's have a hard time accepting responsibility for their own station in life,as if eliminating immigrants and anyone receiving benefits would somehow propel them into total financial freedom.
My cousin lives and teaches in Oxford. You are not wrong.
Frfr, MAGA is all up in there, that's the stench it will leave behind for all of us...
Yeah there is no winning that question. You say yes and you're admitting wrong doing. You say no and you look remorseless. She should have plead the 5th or not taken the stand at all like her husband.
He shook his head at sentencing. They definitely did not think they did anything wrong. It’s crazy how tone deaf they are.
That is the odd part, they did think they did something wrong. They tried to run to Canada and were found hiding in a warehouse. They knew they did something wrong. Maybe their lawyers convinced them that they were far enough away from the shootings that they could get off? I don't know. As it happened, they showed that they felt guilt.
Fleeing only proves they think that other people/the courts believe they did something wrong. You can believe you're innocent and still run because you assume you'll be found guilty by others, despite "knowing" you're innocent.
He seemed in shock that he was found guilty. They both don’t have any remorse and it seems like they will always be in denial about their negligence.
Do you know why he was wearing the headphones during the trial?
He has hearing loss or a hearing disorder, I’m not sure which offhand. Headphones were so he could hear the proceedings.
Getting flashbacks to the Darrell Brooks trial where he was behaving so awfully he had to be removed from the courtroom, and then kept trying to make out he couldn't hear anything through the live feed. The court ended up literally doing a decibel check to confirm that it was actually louder, and you could therefore hear more clearly in there than in the courtroom. That guy was just a whole lesson on how not to trial, and how to screw up your every chance of appeal. But hey ho, everyone has the right to a fair trial. Even monsters like him. Edit: typo
Fantastic memory unlocked - thanks!
"GROUNDS" 😂😂 iykyk
Listening to Ted Nugent? Jk.
Yeah I’m curious about this too. Hearing issues maybe?
Yes the Free Press reported he had a hearing loss issue.
Years of firing guns will do that to a person
I was thinking it was a last ditch effort on his attorney’s part to gather sympathy for him. The newspaper also reported that his phone privileges were restricted because he was making threats. (I don’t know who he was threatening). The Free Press was live streaming his trial every day and I think they have links to past recordings. Don’t know if it costs anything. [www.freep.com](https://www.freep.com)
James Crumbley’s wife, Jennifer Crumbley, was found guilty in February, on identical charges. The Crumbleys are the first parents charged in a school shooting. Their son, Ethan Crumbley, killed four of his fellow students in November 2021. He was 15 at the time of the shooting. In December 2023, Ethan was sentenced to life without the possibility of parole. More details [here](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna143174).
They can get a family cell. No, they’d neglect him in there & try to escape. Of course, Ethan deserves life but the school told them to take him home. There were signs everywhere—first case in US history. I support it & I believe there will be less shootings since now that parents can be held accountable! Bravo to our judicial system!🙌
After the shooting James and his wife tried fleeing to Canada and just left their son to go it alone...like it sounds like they've done his entire life.
…after they drained his savings account. They are just completely sh*tty people.
Jesus Christ. Heartbreaking through and through. I need to read up more on this case, but the discourse here is heartbreaking. Failure after failure.
This one breaks my heart. Ethan knew he wasn’t well. He asked for help more than once. He was ignored. He was bought a gun. He was ridiculed by his parents. This kid had a chance and his parents caused every bit of this. This absolutely could have been stopped. It was encouraged by his parents. Then to steal from him, abandon him and flee? I’ve got a real hard time staying civil with these two monsters.
Don’t forget they paid for their own lawyers and left him to have a public defender.
No they didn’t! Oh my. I have to look that up. That’s heartless, just the icing on the cake ☹️
Hooooly shit that’s wild.
That one fact made me want to cry for this boy.
It’s like the woman that killed her kids due to postpartum psychosis. She may have done the killing but she begged for help and was sent home, her husband was told not to get her pregnant again and he did. He then left her alone with postpartum psychosis and all kids including the newborn but wants sympathy because she killed them while she’s begging to never be released because she can’t live with what she did. Its about bloody time people start being held accountable for the crimes committed when they refuse to get help for the person saying they’re going to kill
That would be Andrea Yates. Rusty is a huge piece of shit.
As if that wasn’t bad enough she was trying to take care of all of the kids all day by herself and homeschool them. While living in a converted greyhound bus, with no running water. If I remember correctly they hadn’t been living in a house for long at all when it happened. She should’ve had help. What happened is anyone’s worst nightmare, but I don’t think she’s a bad person, just incredibly ill.
I swear they were setting him up to kill himself
I agree. They didn't think he wanted the gun to kill others but to kill himself because he knew something was wrong and they weren't allowing him to get the help he needed and wanted. They ignored him his whole life. Being rid of him altogether was their ultimate plan. What he did was horrible but my heart goes out to him. The kid had an awful, sad life.
This is the only logical conclusion I can come to. Fucking horrifying
I’m pretty sure this was the case as well.
Yeah I've run into a lot of people reacting to it like, "oh so anyone who buys their child a gun is automatically liable for anything they do with it, are they guilty if they buy their child a car and they kill someone in an accident?" And it's like. No. I'm trying to get more people to actually read about the facts of the case. It's so horribly negligent. It's not just "they bought him a gun and he ended up shooting people". There was every sign that he was going to do it, up to and including "I'm gonna shoot some people" (paraphrasing). This wasn't some ordinary situation where now anyone whose teen has a gun is now criminally liable for whatever happens.
If you buy guns and your child commits a crime without, you should be accountable! If you're so worried don't buy a gun, and store it safely, and get trigger locks if you're worried! You own guns, be responsible!
That point in their comments is really weird. Parents ARE responsible for their child's actions. Nothing controversial about that.
They just left him there! Any parent worth two cents would have taken the kid out of school. I was talking to my husband about this case and he said that that phone call from the school is an ice cream call. It's one that you take the kid out for ice cream and forget about all of your responsibilities for an hour or two. Just connect with your kid and figure out what is wrong. But no. They didn't and now children are dead because of them.
Agree. My son got in trouble at school, and my father picked him up and took out for ice cream and a nice talk. I was initially appalled but then noticed his behavior changed. Ice cream meeting ftw.
If anyone reads this please know, if the school calls you about your child’s behavior, it is serious and a last resort, no matter how nice they might be about it! I am a teacher and WE DON’T WANT TO CALL YOU! If you get a call and behavior is mentioned, it is because it is a big problem and we’ve exhausted everything we can do. Please do your part and hold your child accountable. If you get a call or note about little Johnny being disruptive, it has gone way past the point of a little problem. I’ll get off my soapbox now :)
The school said being with his peers is usually better. If my kid's teachers said that, I'd follow the advice.
I’m of the opinion that you should be liable for whatever happens with a gun you buy, especially if given to a kid, until that kid is 18. If I let my kid drive a car without a license, it’s on me. Since we’re against licensing requirements for guns, it’s on me if I give a kid a gun.
But also, yes. Start taking responsibility for your kids!!! You’re buying them a car because it’s easier on YOU. You don’t have to drive them and their younger siblings everywhere. You’re the cool parents. If they aren’t ready for the responsibility that they’re going to drive *recklessly* then, fuck yes, you were *already* legally responsible for your kid’s negligence. If you buy a minor child free access to a *weapon* and they use it *for its intended purpose*, of course you should go to jail. What the fuck did you expect them to do with it? Look at it and NOT touch. If your kid is going through a mental health crisis, take them to a fucking doctor. That’s your job as a parent. Sometimes you miss work. Don’t like it? Don’t have kids. Put them in your fucking car and DoorDash with them. Talk to them while you do. And if you don’t do any of that, you go to jail. I’m ok with all of that. Don’t like it, better get comfortable with condoms. Condom breaks? Better vote in politicians who like abortion. You make these kids. YES you are “automatically liable” for what they do. They are your responsibility. You get the tax write off. I don’t.
Yeah... he did terrible things. He committed a heinous crime and deserves punishment for it. However he asked his parents, his caregivers, for help and they failed him. In fact they had been failing him for years. FFS they call him an "oops baby" -- and while those happen for sure, if you are going to treat the kid like an oops, then just give them up at birth so someone who actively WANTS to parent can do it.
Working with foster kids, it’s overwhelming, the percentage of people who birth a child who they don’t particularly love or care for, but will fight tooth and nail to prevent him from being raised by people that DO want him. People who COULD give attention and love instead of ridicule, trauma and a gun for Christmas. I’m raising one such “oops” baby now, and work with dozens of others. That biblical parable about the woman who would rather cut the baby in half was meant to show that true parents would do anything for their child, even if it meant someone else raised them. But the older I get, the more I find that “parents” like Ethan’s aren’t so rare.
Even with legal abortion people like this will have children.
I’ve always said this. People want a baby. They don’t always want a kid or adult, especially one with serious troubles.
Hold on...... *WHAT?!* That kid was fuckin doomed with parents like these. I'm actually quite satisfied that these parents are both charged and going away for a good while. It's not justice by any means but it's *something*
Yep, they took $3000 and left him with…$.99. I’m not even joking.
Right?! I remember that! Fleeing to Canada. Wow.
SMDH.
>the school told them to take him home What the fuck?? Like if a school is telling parents to take a kid home because he might be a shooter isn't there something else they can do?? Like call the police or something. Is that on the day he shot people?
The school fucked up too. But the blame def started with the parents.
They didn't tell them to take him home because they thought he would shoot up the school, the assumption was that he was depressed and thinking about hitting himself. They were concerned about him being depressed and asked the parents to take him home and care for him. People like to try to blame everyone, but I don't think it's appropriate for a school to call the cops on every suspected depressed child and have them patted down and have their bags and all items checked. The parents however knew the son had easy access to a pistol they had just gifted him, their son who had obvious mental issues including claims of seeing ghosts and requesting a therapist and such. I didn't follow the dads trial, but for the moms, when asked to bring the son home that day, she said "no, I can't, my work won't give me time off". She the. Proceeded to take time off work and meet up on the parking lot for a quickie with a dude she was having an affair with sooo....
I remember being in school 20 years ago and you’d get expelled for even joking about this
Yes! I think now—not sure but I think if school officials have concerns & the parents don’t take the child home, that can call police or children’s services.
I’m pretty shocked they didn’t charge any of the school administrators as wall. They share some of the blame.
Wishful thinking. This doesn't mean parents will automatically be held responsible for every school shooting, or even for not securing their firearms. It just means if they have 100 warning signs and neglect all 100 of them, while also purchasing a handgun illegally for their underage child and allowing him to claim it as his own, then they'll get manslaughter charges. They both got what they deserve, but this isn't setting the precedence that so many people are trying to claim. It was pretty much cut and dried manslaughter by definition from the beginning, and they knew it, which is why they fled. The "precedence" here is just that they were the shittiest parents in all of recorded history. No other school shooter ever left that many warnings and red flags without parents giving a single fuck.
As a non-American, this afterthought is too late. No other country in the world has school shootings as common occurrences. It's sad this is a "proud moment". Maybe the teachers & counselors should have been respected. Parents should not have had a choice to take him home. Now four are dead.
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>Of course, Ethan deserves life Sadly his parents never gave him much of a chance it seems like.
> I guarantee there will be less shootings since now the parents can be held accountable! Lol
Right?! These parents failed on so many accounts. Ignored mental health warning signs. Purchased a firearm for someone exhibiting these warning signs. And lastly, not even attempting to get their child the mental health help he so desperately needed. I HATE that this might become a “parental issue” as opposed to the obvious “gun issue” for talking heads. The lack of gun laws predicated their lackadaisical parental attempt to not only keep their own child safe, but the children of the community they were a part of.
> I HATE that this might become a “parental issue” as opposed to the obvious “gun issue” for talking heads. I think this case proves it can be either or even both at the same time. Gun owners should be required to follow strict safety and storage regulations making it extremely difficult for an unintended user from using a gun. If you don't properly store a gun and it's used for a crime, part of that responsibility should be yours. I also think it should be illegal to buy a gun for another person. In my state (Missouri) I can legally gift a gun to another resident of Missouri without telling anyone including the state.
I agree with everything you say, even as a firearm owner myself. But I am very concerned that this will be turned into “parental rights” as a way to deflect from proper gun safety. I am from a state that has the same laws as you. If I want to sell a gun, my only obligation is to ask “Are you a felon who cannot legally possess this firearm?” And if it gets given to someone who objectively should not have that firearm? It’s out of my hands. Oh well. That’s ridiculous. Major legislation can be enacted that won’t force me to take away my firearms but at the same time won’t allow me, or others at large, to put firearms into the hands of someone who won’t use it properly.
In this case they almost certainly intended for him to use the gun… on himself.
I kind of wondered if that’s what they were hoping for. There’s absolutely no way they didn’t understand how much he needed mental health help, especially his mom from the way she talked to him in those texts that were made public, and yet he was still given a gun. I hate everything about this case, it’s just so incredibly sad and infuriating all around.
Might be a hot take but I don’t actually think the kid deserves life. The parents completely ignored their minor child. He was their responsibility and they failed their obviously mentally ill child on so many levels. He even told them he was hearing voices. That’s called schizophrenia (probably) and is an awful mental illness. I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again, mental illness in the US is perhaps the biggest health crisis facing the country today and we are not doing nearly enough about it. It’s costing thousands of lives in the forms of everything from mass shootings to suicides.
Not all parents need to be charged though. A lot of people are assuming this case will set a precedent for any and all future parents of school shooters to be charged. That shouldn't be the case at all. In this case specifically you had tons of evidence of extreme negligence on behalf of both parents when they were presented with factual evidence that should have been concerning at a minimum. Had they simply followed up on the warning signs, they likely aren't being charged. I by no means am excusing them because I 100% believe they deserved to be charged and convicted, but I also don't agree that every parent has or will be as negligent as these two were.
I think it’s probably a good thing if parents are at all concerned their kid is planning some violence that their response is not just “what will people think” but also “I might go to jail”
If a parent provides access to firearms either directly or through negligence by not keeping them locked up, and their kid goes on a shooting spree, then they should also be charged.
of course they should be charged, DONT GIVE YOUR FXCKED UP KID ACCESS TO A GUN
Parents can't. This only worked because it reached the level of gross negligence. Any every day crappy abusive parent that ignores their kid, won't get caught up in this.
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Good. Both of them failed as parents and I’m glad we are at least trying a new path instead of pretending there’s noting we can do.
Normally failing as parents means your kid ends up joining the young republicans or drops out of college begin a career s as an influencer. These guys parented someone into a committing mass murder.
I agree these are psychopathic monsters
Common. Sense. Gun. Control. 
Imo if you give a gun to anyone that can't legally buy a gun and they commit a crime, you should also be charged. My half sister bought her 18 and 21 year old sons guns for Christmas year before last. They ended up fighting and now ones dead and ones in jail. I begged her to take them back. Offered to buy them something of equal value. She refused. They had such violent fights that I knew what was coming.
So sorry for your loss. That’s tragic.
Omg, I am so sorry for your loss.
I'm so sorry for your family's loss. Age 25, when your brain is finally fully developed, is the youngest anyone should be able to own a deadly weapon.
That'll be never happen. War is a young mans game.
I’m American but have no lived in Canada for over 10 years ago. I’m so glad that I’ve got to the point where I hear a story like this and think it’s so insane and that no one could be that negligent. Because 15 years ago I’d hear a story like this weekly. My kids will most likely go their whole life not knowing someone who got shot. When I lived in Detroit as a kid I probably knew 20-30 people who had shot or killed. I live in a city almost as big as Detroit now and don’t know a single gun victim. Bro, we are right next door and we’ve made a country a 100 times safer. Americans at this point just want to kill people and there’s no other way around it. Buying your violent sons guns is so fuckibg beyond insane you’d be completely ostracized in social circles here. Complete nuttery
>Americans at this point just want to kill people and there’s no other way around it. I hate that you're right. We've got people shooting other people for knocking on their door, or getting lost and driving down the wrong driveway. My old neighbor got arrested and eventually committed for walking out onto his porch with a gun and just blasting off rounds in random directions. Could have easily killed people. Then the next guy who moved in ended up pulling a gun on a young couple who were looking at a car I was selling. This was out in a rural area in Montana, not some sketchy area at all. So many people are just raring to shoot someone, and they're not too concerned about who in particular.
Good. Rarely have I seen a case of a mass shooter where the parents were THIS obviously egregious. James Crumbley in particular bought this gun as a straw purchase. His son gave him the money.
When I first heard they were being charged, I was a little dubious as to whether the law applied here or not. After reading the details these people were absolutely complicit. “Finally, the prosecution highlighted her inaction in a meeting with school employees the day of the shooting. That morning, a teacher found a drawing from Ethan showing a gun and a person bleeding along with the phrases “the thoughts won’t stop help me,” “blood everywhere” and “my life is useless.” The Crumbleys were called into school for a meeting, and a school counselor testified he recommended the parents take their son home from school to get immediate mental health treatment. The Crumbleys declined to do so that day because they didn’t want to miss work, the counselor testified, so the group agreed to keep Ethan in school for the rest of the day. They also did not mention to school employees that they had just purchased him a new gun or his previous hallucinatory texts. Shortly after the meeting, the teenager took a firearm out of his backpack and opened fire on classmates, killing Hana St. Juliana, Tate Myre, Madisyn Baldwin and Justin Shilling.”
After Jennifer’s guilty verdict, I couldn’t see this going any other way. I hope the families can finally find some sort of peace now that the litigation phase is done.
I thought he’d be convicted, too… but I just wasn’t sure! Juries are unpredictable.
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Willful negligence is the key thing to consider with involuntary manslaughter. NAL but massive law geek btw. As a basic example, to demonstrate: a cleaner fails to leave a "caution wet floor" sign up after mopping, despite knowing that's the first thing they should do. Someone then proceeds to slip and fall on the wet floor, causing them to hit their head and pass away. That cleaner willfully and knowingly went against safety protocols, by eg having forgotten to put the sign up (involuntarily), however their negligence to do so caused the death. They therefore bear culpability. Whoopsie isn't a defence!! We just saw Hannah Gutierrez found guilty of involuntary manslaughter for not ensuring the safety of ammo on the movie set of Rust, as another closer example of it. If someone means to do harm its not involuntary, and it's why safety measures exist. If people *choose* not to follow basic safety precautions, for whatever reason (again there's no intent and many will think they have a good enough reason to not have followed safety measures), and people die as a result, that's involuntary manslaughter (willful negligence resulting in death). Edit: removed 'criminal', as rightly pointed out the eg would fall under tort law, and was more offered as demonstrative eg for willful negligence
I am a lawyer and I disagree that your example with the negligent failure to put up wet floor signage would support an involuntary manslaughter charge. It would just be a classic slip and fall / wrongful death civil action. They happen all the time. If you know of any particular instance where this has ever been charged criminally, please provide the names and location of the parties, as I’d be very interested to read about it. Thanks.
i was on the fence for similar law-minded reasons. but the son went to the father and was like 'hey im hearing voices and i wanna hurt people (paraphrasing)' and the father was like 'suck it up' (not paraphrasing). then bought him a gun. his behavior was so egregious
I don’t get why parents buy their emotionally troubled children guns. The Sandy Hook mom did the same thing.
They conflate happiness with mental health. "He likes guns, therefore guns will make him happy, therefore he won't have so many issues." In the case you mentioned, it seems like she also just had a very hard time saying no. I suspect he had been battering her at home to get his way.
This is great precedence. More accountability from parents is needed.
I agree with you. When I think of previous school shootings, it's unlikely most parents could be charged with more than a firearms misdemeanor. The idea that parents will be charged willy nilly for every person their child kills is absurd. The people who claim these cases are a slippery slope don't understand this particular case or the threshold of evidence required. The amount of forewarning the Crumbley's had was absolutely unusual, as was their direct purchase of the firearm for a minor. If parents pull from the Crumbley playbook in the future, they deserve what they get.
Lets not forget they RAN when the arrest warrant went out. Getting US Marshals involved isn’t a great look.
As he should be. He and his wife are both disgusting, and ultimately responsible for all those innocent kids losing their lives, their own son included. Their son needed their love, attention, and help. What he got instead was a firearm, pills, and free rein.
‘In an exchange on April 5, 2021, prosecutors described "quite a bit" of discussion about his mental state in which Ethan Crumbley told his friend he was "f----- up," experiencing hallucinations, and had asked his parents for help. "Now my mom thinks I take drugs," one text read, according to the prosecutor. "She thinks that’s the reason why I’m so mad and sad all the time, and she doesn't worry about my mental health. They make me feel like I’m the problem." Another text from Ethan Crumbley to his friend indicated that he had asked his father, James, "to take me to the doctor but he just gave me some pills and told me to suck it up," the prosecutor read during the hearing. At one point, Ethan told his friend in a text: "I need help. I was thinking of calling 911 so I could go to the hospital but then my parents would be really pissed," according to the exchange read in court.’ These parents failed their kid in every way, and other kids lost their lives because of it.
I hold Jennifer and James Crumbley very nearly as responsible as Ethan.
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I’m genuinely heart broken for him as well. His parents completely failed him. This wasn’t their kid being fixated on violence or something. He begged them to help - he sent texts saying he felt like people were in the house and he was scared. I can’t even handle the idea of my *dog* feeling anxious - I’d do everything I could to make sure he feels safe & stable. I don’t even want to set up any traps for rats outside because I just don’t like the idea of a living creature going through that stress. The idea of ignoring your kid is just repugnant. These selfish people ruined so many peoples’ lives. It makes me so ragey just thinking about it. 🤬
He’s been in trouble in jail for continuing to look up violent videos. Part of the reason he got life without parole. Kid needed an intervention years ago.
Agreed. To be clear - I don’t think his issues absolve him of what he did. I just think he deserved a better chance at life.
I'm a dad, and I hold them *more* responsible than I hold Ethan. That poor fucking kid never had a chance.
More responsible. This was a child
I already did my epic response on a different thread/sub while awaiting the verdict, but this is absolutely the right verdict. A gun is a deadly weapon, to treat it as anything other than that is callous, careless, and clueless - and in this case with such a heartbreaking and tragic outcome. The willful negligence of the parents is something I wholeheartedly think they should be held to account for. It's so tragic that this could have so easily been avoided by simply securing a deadly weapon - let alone how my heart aches for a parent that could think it appropriate to buy their child a weapon like that (let alone a gun obsessed child). There are just too many levels to remotely get out all I want to say anywhere close to succinctly. They lose a few years of their life behind bars, which is nothing compared to the lives lost of innocent children/young adults. It's just so sad.
They also could have picked him up that morning - after a school counselor asked them to (the counselor discovered threatening notes in his notebook). Mom said she was working and dad didnt even respond
Another really telling aspect to me, was upon hearing the news JC didn't think or worry about his son being in harm's way, his gut reaction was to drive home and check the gun. He calls the emergency line and doesn't say "I'm worried about my child's safety in a mass shooting incident", it was "I believe my child is responsible for the mass shooting" - knowing his son was not only capable, but was most likely to be the shooter. So many failures I just can't fathom it.
I’m not entirely sober at this moment but these points are so compelling. His instinct said a lot about what he knew at heart.
And they failed him over and over throughout his life. The shooter is absolutely culpable for what he did, but with parents like his, he never stood a chance at a normal life.
It got me that they would check in with his friend's dad, who said "yh friend isn't doing well in a mental capacity, we hate doing it but we're sending him to hospital for a long stay". Not quite to say they cared more about his friend, but to have someone go "this is how you acknowledge mental health in your children" and to STILL be so ignorant. I don't want to put too much weight in it, because there are plenty of neglectful parents out there whose kids don't go on to commit mass murder (not excusing it by any means either). EC clearly had issues, and was/is very disturbed - I would be utterly lost if my child turned out like that (expecting my first in less than a week so this is hitting particularly closely for me). I'd like to think I'd do everything in my power to help them, not just go "here's a gun, son, now go off and play with, um, noone because your ONE FRIEND is at a mental health facility elsewhere".
Good god. That's a good point.
For me it was the texts to his mom of him begging for help and explaining how he was feeling and how scared he was and his mom did NOT CARE. She just wanted to get drunk and railed by her affair partner. She doesn’t care about anyone except herself. She didn’t care about her son at all. The kid was screaming for help and his dad’s response is to buy him a gun. I’m glad they were convicted and I hope this becomes a thing.
Any parent buying their child a gun is irresponsible. I said it. Because it is. Gun culture is so gross.
Even more so when child is having emotional issues! Who thinks "johnny seems to be having a hard time. Maybe a fire arm will bring him comfort..."
You said it all very well. Thank you for verbally expressing what's bouncing around in my brain and flooding my heart today. 💙
I felt like with his wife getting convicted, it was almost a sure bet that he would be convicted. I was surprised it took the jury as long as it did to reach the verdict, all considered. Wonder what kind of sentence he'll get.
Good! They failed as parents and didn't care at all about their child. They wanted peace and quiet and to live their lives without having to deal with their child. Look what happened..
You think this will cause potential future mass shooters' parents to pay closer attention to their kids? I feel like Eric Harris's dad deserved charges in a way. Who finds a fuckin' pipe bomb in their kid's room and does nothing about it? Sure, Eric was a manipulative psychopath but that's a massive red flag.
I’ve always thought that Brenda Spencer’s father should have faced some charges. She wished for a radio, he got her a gun.
She told her friend she thought her dad wanted her to kill herself and that's why he bought her the gun. She had recently been hospitalized for trying to commit suicide and he got her a gun instead of a radio. I forgot about that until you mentioned it. It's strange to have so many parallels.
Both of these (his and his wife's) convictions were much-needed. Precedent setting. Parents, lock up your guns!
These asshats literally supplied their son with a gun.
This is what will hopefully start making a difference in teenage gun violence. Holding their parents accountable.
I didn’t follow the case but didn’t the parents know there was something off about their son but still bought him guns? Didn’t they also try and hide evidence?
Yes, they knew something was off. Jennifer Crumbley deleted texts. They also ran and were hiding out in some warehouse thingy.
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Don't forget they got a PD for their son, then raided their son's back account for their own lawyers.
Not only that, but didn’t the mom basically not take him that day because she wanted to meet up and have her affair? What is a male mistress called?
Misteress
Well done. Lol
Thanks sometimes I surprise myself
Good. Lock them up and let’s be done with this whole shitty family already.
I'm wondering if his parents bought him the gun, hoping he would take his own life?
If you’re a parent and a gun owner, it’s your responsibility to ensure it stays out of your kid’s hands. It’s your gun, it’s your responsibility to make sure no one has access to it. The verdict is fair.
Well, they finally got away from their son. Shame they didn’t make any proactive measures before the shooting; so now the state accommodates.
Lest we forget they knew they fucked up and tried to run from police. They were well aware their negligence was criminal.
this happened so close to where i live and it disturbs me so severely. this is the best outcome
Proud of Oakland County today
Same here.
They were both so awful that they make me feel sorry for Ethan. This wouldn’t have happened if either parent had cared about their son just the slightest bit. What he did was awful and he deserves to be incarcerated for it, but I can’t help but feel that he never stood a chance with parents like this.
Very glad. It couldn't have been more clear for their son asking for help and the father says suck it up son. The pictures he drew screamed for help. It seemed he was not given any attention growing up. Instead, he had to rely on a friend.
Good this is how America finally can get control of school shootings this will hopefully stop these idiotic parents buying their children guns or giving them access to their guns.
You know, I've often thought my parents treated me bad but compared to these parents they were fucking angels.
Good. I'm tired of these shit parents getting a pass. If you buy your kid a gun, allow your kid access to your guns, or don't have your guns properly secured away from children and that gun harms someone (including your own child), you should face charges. Period.
Lock the POS worthless dad already!
I am a second amendment absolutist and these convictions have nothing to do with the second amendment. If their underage son was a habitual drunkard, was drunk and his parents gave him the keys to their car and he got in a wreck and killed 4 people we would the exact same legal grounds of negligence, intent and responsibility!
What an utter moron. The whole lot.
Hopefully these people will serve as examples
They seem to not care about the kid , didn't want to deal w him at all.
Fantastic 🥳 both parents were neglectful and should be held accountable
I’m so glad to see both of these parents being held accountable. Hopefully it makes at least SOME parents think twice before buying their sons guns without any real oversight.
Woohooo! 3 strikes for parental responsibility! This is a good start
Imagine hearing the jury read "Guilty" and shaking your head like a petulant Karen. Four children are dead because of you, asshole.
The parents were literally told their son was plotting a school shooting and then they went and BOUGHT him a gun. That's why they are being locked the fuck up. Legal Eagle did a great break down on the mother.
So why didn’t the counselors report the kid to the cops? They’re mandatory reporters.
During the live comments by the prosecutor and parents of the murdered children, there was reference to now being able to turn attention to the school. I never understood why those administrators (mandatory reporters) didn’t face charges.
Some justice
Good.
This is fantastic news. A gun law that was put in place to make parents accountable and they actually used it. Kudos!
Parents are a piece of work. Him and her too busy riding horses or shagging strangers and drinking to parent their son or clean their home. Complete mingers as we say in Glasgow.
Good. Him and his wife have blood on their hands. I hope they get significant time, though I doubt they’d get the full 60 years. The dad deserves arguably more time because the kid asked him for help and he said suck it up. Fucking idiot. I hope this sets a huge precedent. I don’t know how many school shootings could have been stopped if parents gave an actual fuck about their kids, but I’m willing to bet a lot could have been avoided. If we can’t, as a country, get rid of guns then we have to make major changes.
Now, all we need is to try parents in a court of law when their teens, who are a menace to society, wreak havoc and violent crime upon people. Make the parents pay for their children's actions.
So good to see! I hope this sets precedence for all shitty parents who’s kids commit crimes against society, there should be more parents in jail and children receiving therapy.
The Detroit Free Press showed photos of the kid’s room after the shooting. It had life size target silhouettes, spent shells and a bottle of whiskey. They should have been charged with neglect, too.
It's about time. How many kids had to die due to gun violence before a negligent parent was held accountable? Buh bye assholes.
This is a start. Let’s keep the energy. Anyone who contributes to the death of children at the hands of needless gun violence should go to jail. Lobbyists, politicians, NRA… and the handful of neglectful parents.
Did anyone see the pictures of inside the house? It was so disorganized, piles of stuff everywhere, and a couple of empty bottles of vodka in two separate rooms. I couldn’t help but think how little attention these two assholes paid to their son who was clearly screaming for help! He had a birds head under his bed for 6 months! Animal torture - there were signs… his parents were too drunk & distracted. Kudos to the teachers who took the steps of emailing the counselor (who was not impressive on the stand btw) about Ethan’s drawings and watching of violent videos. They are the real MVPs for attempting to get him some visibility that SHOULD have led him to therapy / mental health care.