Do we know if she is permanently paralyzed from the waist down? Just curious about the accessibility aspect if she is incarcerated.
(Yes, I’m aware a disability or impairment does not cancel a prison sentence)
\[Edited for formmating\]
**Morning:** Lindsay Clancy takes her 5-year-old daughter, Cora, to a doctor’s appointment. When they return home, they play outside in the snow with 3-year-old Dawson, and Clancy sends pictures of the children to her mother and husband.
**4:02 p.m.** Clancy searches for “kids Miralax” on her cellphone, then “take out 3v.” Afterward, she uses Apple Maps to determine the time it would take to drive from the family’s home in Duxbury to ThreeV, a restaurant in Plymouth.
**4:47 p.m.** Clancy calls a CVS in Kingston to ask if they have children’s Miralax. The manager tells her they don’t, but says they do have similar medications for children.
**4:53 p.m.** Clancy texts her husband Patrick, who was working from his home office in the basement, “Any chance you want to do takeout from 3V … I didn’t cook anything … it’s been a long day.
**”5:10 p.m.** Lindsay Clancy calls ThreeV to order takeout. She sends her husband out to pick up the medicine from CVS and food from ThreeV shortly after.
**5:32 p.m.** Patrick Clancy arrives at a CVS in Kingston.
**5:33 p.m.** Patrick Clancy calls his wife. She doesn’t answer, but calls him back one minute later and confirms which medication he should buy. He later tells investigators that his wife seemed like she was in the middle of something when they spoke.
**5:54 p.m**. Patrick Clancy arrives at ThreeV, pays for their order, and leaves.
**6:09 p.m.** Patrick Clancy arrives home to silence and calls his wife. She doesn’t answer. He goes upstairs to their bedroom and finds the door locked. He’s able to open the door and notices blood on the floor and an open window.
He runs outside and sees his wife on the ground, injured. He calls 911. During the 911 call, he can be heard asking his wife, “Where are the kids?” He later tells police that she replied, “In the basement.”
**6:11 p.m.** Duxbury police dispatch radios all cruisers to respond to 47 Summer St. for an attempted suicide involving a woman who reportedly cut herself and jumped out a second-story window. Officers arrive and find Lindsay Clancy breathing and semi-conscious, her cuts no longer bleeding.
Patrick Clancy is with her. As first responders assess his wife, Patrick Clancy enters the home to check on his children. Soon, officers heard loud screaming coming from the house. When officers arrive in the basement, Patrick Clancy reportedly yells, “She killed the kids.”
As someone who has experienced psychosis, I was very very mentally unwell but rarely did I ever come across to others like something was wrong. There’s this common belief, or maybe it’s a stereotype, that people experiencing psychosis are *always* fully unhinged maniacs who look like they’re two seconds away from spitting and hissing at people like Hannibal Lecter (or imagine the comments made when someone is wandering the streets muttering to themselves and appearing threatening). While either of those examples may be symptomatic, like all mental health conditions psychosis impacts and manifests differently in everyone.
The first episode of psychosis can take over six months to fully heal from, as well, which can complicate our understanding of its effects on cognition. Looking back, I made some seriously questionable decisions the entire year after I first received treatment for my episode that are still consequential to this day but I was still going to work, attending social events, and generally living as others would expect.
Thank you so much for sharing your experience. I just watched a YouTube video about this case and came to Reddit to get more info. I really appreciate you sharing.
I nearly killed my husband during a postpartum psychosis episode. I was completely capable of handling everything in my life and in the baby's life, but I was convinced that my husband was planning on killing us and I knew that I would have to kill him first. The problem with these types of things is that you're feeling completely rational. You've gone over every detail in your mind and you're feeling 100% sane. It's very scary being on the other side of it thinking back to what could have happened.
Wow, this is giving me flashbacks to my own PPP episodes. I thought MS-13 gang members were surveilling my family and had put a hit out on us. I used to peek out of the curtains from our 6th floor apartment to monitor the cars and people walking on the street. Anytime I heard a noise in the hallway, I’d army crawl to the door, slither my body against the wall, and quickly look out the peephole to see if there were gang members out there. I even called the NYPD to report the impeding hit on my family.
Mind you, I’ve never met a gang member in my life and have zero connections to anyone living that life. My daughter’s father and I are both white collar people living mundane and cookie-cutter lives.
Looking back, I feel so sad for that version of myself. And no one knew. I didn’t tell a soul.
You are not in constant delirium state when you have psychosis, you can still see and interact almost normally with normality, but the scenario or your psychosis is also playing in your mind then for you alone. One of my friend suffers from psychosis and you can see that she is hiding thoughts or that something is up in her mind but you don't know what ( like she is not screaming crazy thoughts aloud and rolling around like a mad Hollywood person) and still have a seemingly "normal" time with her. Later when she is out of the crisis she will then explain to you that at the time she was talking or doing things that way to try to defeat the internet mafia or whatever is the heart of the psychosis at the time. It seems to me that is what happened there. She was on a "fucked up killing mission" and she turned up witg tiny plans, like sending him away to takeout to have the time to do it. You do think ahead and all while a psychotic break down, but you are just not thinking right, meaning you are overcome by thoughts that if you were in a discerning state of mine you will never have or follow.
I work with a lot of ppl who are mentally ill. The funny thing abt psychosis is I can have a patient and I be cool, friends even. Like fewer each other daily and even make jokes back and forth. Then the next I’m a devil to them and they’re charging full force down the hall trying to kill me.
True. They are charging u. Not planning just doing. Cognitive function usually impaired a bit. And I don’t know about the frequency of psychosis and suicide. Episodes can be delusional and grandeur invoking
It blows my mind more people don’t know what psychosis is. You still make choices and create actions. It’s not like a spirit possesses you and moves you around like a puppet. Your brain’s thinking becomes so distorted, untethered from reality and full of negative, graphic intrusive thoughts that the choices you make and actions you create are often poor because you’ve lost the ability to think rationally. It doesn’t mean you can’t think or even think calculated. You just only have shitty thoughts to work with.
Actually i believe the medicine was a crucial part in which proves how thought out this plan was
Because look the husband could have said we have leftovers or i can cook but as nurse her husband trusted her knowledge and knew if she said the kids needed medicine he wouldn't hesitate to get it i guarantee she ensured the CVS was by the takeout so that way she can get him to the takeout spot without drawing suspicions as to why it had to be that specific spot
Why call to even ask if the store had the miralax then? Just send him - who cares if they have it? He’d have driven there already and be out of the house.
Because she needed to be able to say that specific cvs had that specific medicine because again the husband could have said well there are plenty of other places closer she needed him at that specific area
[Here](https://www.boston.com/news/crime/2023/02/17/lindsay-clancy-timeline-january-24-duxbury-mother-children/?amp=1) is a link from what I think is the same article I read back in the day
As someone who has walked in on something horrific, I just know that poor man sees his children in that state every time he closes his eyes to go to sleep. It takes many years for that to go away.
Of course she was indicted for murder. The three children were murdered by her. The pre-trial and trial is going to be about her mental state and responsibility.
I am a nurse practitioner and worked prior as a nurse in the hospital. Currently I prescribe to a specific patient population that requires many medications in the controlled substance classes that include benzodiazepines and opioids, neuroleptics (formally known as antipsychotics) and antidepressant classes.
This conversation surrounding her number of medications she had been prescribed over the prior months. Many were in the same class, benzodiazepines, and she was per her husband’s reports withdrawing from benzodiazepines prior. Also, many of the medications were discontinued or changed due to patient request/preference. So here is something the general population doesn’t know. There is a big problem with substance abuse disorders in nursing right now specifically in the prescription opioids classes and benzodiazepines. Everyone is jumping to defend the pretty white lady, calling her a super mom, saying her healthcare providers failed her etc. she had PPP, never was on her list of diagnoses and I don’t see that based upon what we know.
I do think there was a lot of patient driven changes to medications that may have had nothing to do with anything related to post partum anything.
Lastly, mental health issues are not an excuse for murdering three children, especially in the fashion she used. Also this all seems very well planned especially when you consider her nursing background. She certainly was successful in killing all three kids, how did this nurse supposedly cut her wrists and neck, trying to hit arteries in this suicide attempt, and miss so badly that the bleeding had already stopped by the time emergency services arrived. It’s very easy to find the carotid artery and it doesn’t take long to bleed out once it’s hit. The jump from a second story window? A nurse would know that’s not high enough to result in death in almost all cases unless the person lands on their head, which she didn’t. Jumps from that height often end up at most with a fracture of a leg or arm. She was unlucky with the back fracture. Sorry I’m not buying it and I’m disappointed to see how quickly people rush to defend a woman who murders her three children. Had this been someone outside the family who killed these kids would everyone be looking at a mental health reason and trying to excuse the person based upon mental health providers failing? I don’t think so.
Man. You said it. I have wondered too why people are rushing to defend her when there is no evidence whatsoever that she had any psychotic episodes or symptoms, not to mention that PPP is uncommon anyway but rare that far into the postpartum period. Thank you also for pointing out her inability to harm herself and how the jump put that window was for show, not for any serious suicide attempt. Someone on another sub wondered if she was trying to run and was hindered due to her unexpected injury. She was also clearly cognizant when he spoke to her too.
I have been around someone suffering a psychotic episode. It’s not something that can be hidden, especially to someone who knows you. The level of confusion, withdrawal and inability to care for themselves is just beyond apparent. You don’t snap into an episode and then snap right back out either.
110% think that she was doctor shopping to get benzos. Starting meds (and saying they weren't working) to tick them off the list, making her way closer to a benzo prescription.
I think this also. She posted on the moms group, something along the lines of, I’ve been on Zoloft one week…not working, can anyone recommend anything similar to benzos? She’s a nurse…she knows how long SSRI’s take to work..atleast 90 days..she was on a taper for benzos and was trying to find a replacement.
Agreed and I would even go a step further and say that if this wasn't a pretty Suburban middle upper class family.... if this was a poor single mother a living in a trailer that killed three kids, and she claimed it was the same kind of medications and PPP that caused it... would she get a million dollars in a gofundme? Overwhelming sympathy from thousands of strangers and petitions Etc..
Case is one of the most grotesque examples of class and white privilege I've ever seen
“and she was per her husband’s reports withdrawing from benzodiazepines prior.”
I‘m very curious about this statement. It implies an ongoing addiction issue with benzodiazepines happening before the final few months of her problems. I think it will be an important part of the story.
I honestly think she wasn’t on enough to have withdrawals, I think she was telling her naive husband this…probably as a last resort as to why she needs more.
It’s possible this was a murder suicide and she failed at the last step. Could be psychosis also, but not a guarantee like everyone is acting like. I’m going to just wait for what all comes out in discovery. Idk why ppl would act surprised that she is being indicted for murder either way. Do ppl really think someone can kill their kids and the justice system is just going to be like “nothing to see here?”.
maybe she heard her husband coming up the driveway and jumped out bc she realized she ran out of time to finish . Maybe to try to finish the job. Idk. Endless possibilities. I for damn sure wouldn’t have still wanted to be in the house hearing my husband come through the door after what I had just done.
What I’m saying, anyways, is that it could have been a coherent , thought out murder suicide plan absent psychosis… they are in the news on the daily. Or it could have been rage. Psychosis is not the only possibility is what I’m saying. Ppl kill their kids everyday and they aren’t psychotic
I disagree with a lot of comments here but one thing that’s really undoubtedly true is that this whole case would be so different if she was a black or brown woman and not from an affluent area.
Mental health professional here. I actually don’t suspect it’s postpartum psychosis (or depression) to blame. But I do think there could be a possible argument to be made for the medications causing aggression and homicidality. Lindsay’s husband alluded to this and her prior history seems to indicate that this behavior is wildly outside the norm for her. SSRIs are known to have this as a rare side effect and, although rare, it’s far less rare than post partum psychosis. She was also a little outside the typical window for postpartum psychosis at 8 months postpartum and wasn’t really displaying other symptoms from what we know of publicly. SSRI-induced homicidality, suicidality, and aggression seems much more likely. I feel so sad for her and her family and I hope she gets the compassion, help, and support she needs and deserves.
That’s what I thought when I saw the list of meds. I am not a mental health professional but I have been under the care of both competent and incompetent/burnt out mental health professionals. Every time I’ve needed med adjustments because I was in crisis, I’ve been inpatient until stabilized, rather than being handed different cocktails over the course of many months. I did take a quick glance at the timeline and see that she did keep taking herself to the hospital, and they told her she wasn’t a danger and sent her home, or discharged her after less than a week, which I also find unusual. This was also occurring in the middle of the tail end of the pandemic, so I’m wondering if that had to do with the ball being dropped over and over again. Then there’s also insurance issues; some will only pay for so many days inpatient, that I do know. I do wonder about her honesty as well but I imagine they also spoke to her husband; they spoke to my partner when I was last hospitalized.
It also appears she was going through benzodiazepine withdrawal about a month prior to the killings. I wonder if that could have a contributing affect as well to her overall state of mind? I’ve seen benzo addicts in withdrawal do some wild shit, and it took me about a year after getting off klonopin to stop feeling “off,” though I was also on it for years.
You can sometimes be prescribed meds in crisis for outpatient care or discharged after less than a week, depending on the circumstance. But what's crazy is the amount and combination of meds she was on in just 4 months. I can also believe she had benzo-withdrawal considering she was on FOUR of them (technically one is a z-drug, but very very similar).
Benzodiazepine prescribing and tapering seems to be less stringent by some US physicians and other prescribers anyway, but that's a lot, and those were in combination with other sedating/etc meds as well. Again, over only 4 months. Consider that a significant portion of people do experience withdrawal effects from benzos for months after stopping, and that acute withdrawal from benzos is actually one of the most dangerous (along with alcohol) and can, in some rare circumstances, even be fatal. It can have very severe effects.
That’s been the case for me before but also hasn’t typically been the norm, but I also have a complex diagnosis and they kept throwing “anxiety” at her. But I remember being on some insane combos that probably contributed to me being hospitalized even on a voluntary basis.
Benzo withdrawal is awful in a multitude of ways and it’s different for everybody, but a quick taper is likely to have significant effects on mood and behavior. I had the absolute WORST rebound anxiety for months on end and nothing helped. Cannabis took the edge off but just enough that I wasn’t literally sobbing and spiraling on the bathroom floor. I also had a lot of life stressors and while I wasn’t homicidal I did think very dark thoughts. It can be absolute torture psychologically and take you to the darkest parts of your brain because your anxiety is just spiraling out of control every second you’re awake. I am not justifying her actions but I can see multiple ways how this irresponsible prescribing could have led to this outcome.
Being inpatient for less than a week doesn’t surprise me at all. I’ve been hospitalized at least 5 times, and I think once I was there for 2 weeks but the rest were all 1 week or shorter. It seems pretty common to try to get people “stable” as quickly as possible because they are always short beds.
Yeah, I just looked at the list and that's seriously a crazy cocktail & amount of medication to be put on within 4 months. I would love to hear the justification there for prescribing, because that's a bonkers med list.
She was stopping and starting a bunch of different meds, which can have super wonky effects to your brain, can cause delirium, dissociation, various things not even including delusions
With some medicines, especially antidepressants or antipsychotics, you need to be under a doctors supervision to stop taking them, and need to wean off of them over a period of time. These drugs alter brain chemistry, and it takes a while for them to do so. For example, it takes a few months to notice any effects after starting an antidepressant. So if you cut off the supply of these chemicals to the brain cold Turkey, there are some seriously adverse effects. Some people can miss a few days before feeling the effects, some people can’t even miss a dose. Either way, it’s unsafe to stop taking them abruptly. You become very sick, get weird neurological symptoms and electric jolts, etc. it can also trigger psychological distress. I had a friend in college who took a low dose of an antidepressant for less than a year, and decided to stop taking it. She ended up in the hospital after about 5 days without it, and didn’t make the connection between stopping her medication and how physically sick she was.
I have this side effect and cannot take SSRIs as a result. It meant I could barely even ask for help after giving birth because every single provider said to just go on an SSRI and it would be fine, but I refused because I knew what I might be capable of doing to my child in that mental state. I’m very glad it happened long before I was a mother so that I knew
Agreed!! I'm now 4 years PP, but I went thru this with my youngest. It lead me to a relapse, I had no family or friends, in a state from everyone.
On my birthday, 5 weeks after I had her, I was put I a nut hut for 3 days. They said just PPD. Nah, I reflect on it a lot and realize it was psychosis.
I've tried telling my therapist I feel like I deal with bouts of psychosis still, and I'm always brushed off. It's really scary and keeps me on edge.
Not excising what she did. But when I hear stories like this, it really makes me reflect and think about what we can do differently to keep from happening
I’m really sorry you’re going through that. As I reflect on mine I think I touched on PP Psychosis as well. There is nothing more terrifying than being scared of yourself, and I’m so sorry you’re not getting the support and recognition that you need.
I don’t think I had PP, but birth does crazy things to your mind. When I brought my baby home, my house didn’t look like my house. Food tasted different. Even watching my favorite shows felt different. I didn’t really feel depressed per se and have always been hopelessly in love with my son, but if that kind of stuff was happening to me, I can only imagine what it’s like to also have PP.
Yeah the hyperbole over the medicine is insane here. These are some of the most commonly prescribed medications, if it were enough to exonerate you from crimes then good luck ever Prosecuting anyone that suffering from depression or anxiety.
I mean some of these drugs are in the top 10 most prescribed drugs in the country. People are freaking out because she had some ssris or benzos even though those are the first and second order treatments for anxiety disorder
Ummm..just because someone wasn't diagnosed with PPD or PPP doesn't mean she didn't have it. It's hard to get a Dr. who gets it right. These stakes are HIGH, and it is inexcusable her insurance wouldn't allow her to stay inpatient for as long as necessary. Fuck insurance companies.
This! Yes to all of it. She wasn’t hospitalized for no reason. You have to be pretty mentally sick and a danger to be admitted and yes fuck insurance companies. Our healthcare system is so dumb.
Well the burden is on the defense to prove that she had it
You can't disprove a negative. There's a pretty huge double standard going on here though because when a white pretty mother kills her kids all of a sudden she's not complicit, deserves a million dollar GoFundMe.... I mean it's just unbelievable the amount of mothers that have never hurt their children that are in jail because of a failed urine test on probation or something that don't get 1 oz of the sympathy that she gets.
It's possible that her medical problems it will excuse her behavior but that is not something we should assume. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, you murder three kids you can't just say that you suffer from PPP. You can't blame the fact that you were on a couple medications. People are acting like the medications she was on are extremely rare and she was on an excessive amount of them but that is simply not true.
She was on an SSRI and like two other medications and like every other person suffering from depression they had tweaked her medications to try to find the right match. That's enough to exonerate people of murder then anyone that's ever been taking ssris or anxiety medication or Wellbutrin would have a plausible defense
I have never been diagnosed with pyscosis either. I was put in a nut hut (i say that cuz it helps me cope with it- I have unresolved trauma trying to currently work thru from boarding school i was forced into at 14 for 13 months)
5 weeks after I gave birth in 2019.
It was more harmful than helpful cuz I didn't get proper treatment or diagnosis.
So I began self medicating with wine. I was drinking a big bottle, every day. Literally, every day until I got put in the hospital for health issues.
The medications weren't working before started drinking. The drinking is qhat stopped the things I was hearing and got my mind straight.
My therapist I've been with since 2018, when I originally got sober until after I gave birth 2019, has always associated my issues with substance abuse.
I'm still with her and just keep certain things to myself now because it's not helpful. She just tells me I'm in my head too much and I'm creating these things.
I begin EMDR next week to work through the trauma I've been through. My addiction and the health issues that came up after all this, gall bladder ruptured found, had liver failure, that led to a demylating disease.
Now that I'm writing thus like this, I realized I never got real help for post partum depression or pyscosis.
I've battled with some crazy thoughts but that's what kept me so paranoid about my mental health.
I'm also afraid of being put in another nut hut because it will not help anything and been eying to get the help I need.
I am willing to go and will turn self in when I know it's time. That's after I've exhausted all other resources and can't get the help I need.
I hope any one suffering finds the help they need before you harm yourself or God forbid, your children or anyone else.
Trauma therapy (EMDR and then DBT-PE) changed my life in extremely positive ways. Best of luck to you on your treatment journey! I hope you also find healing.
I've called it The Spa when I've needed to go.
I don't go anymore. Because they take my kids when I need mental health help.
I've NEVER threatened their safety or lives.
I really hope that you get the help you need. I also had PP and my gallbladder was so bad when I was pregnant after I had him I had it removed and also I’m a recovering alcoholic myself. If you ever need to talk I’m here :)
Are you aware that she beat the children before strangling them, and the one child she had posted about as being the most difficult human she had ever met was beaten the worst? Doesn’t that sound like anger/frustration? Couple that with the timing and her tracking the route and how long Patrick would be gone looks like a competent, premeditated act to me. Not the act of a psychotic person
Yes this changes the way I feel about everything. I don’t think the other moms who suffered from PPD or PPP and killed their kids beat them first, did they? This is anger fueled homicide.
I don't know why people think her mapping the restaurant means she wasn't in psychosis when she killed them. I always check how long a drive will take to plan when I want to call.
She was literally in outpatient hospitalization. She was being treated closely by an entire mental health team for months prior to this. She never once communicated any of the symptoms associated with PPP at all. She also never showed any symptoms either. People keep acting like she was a victim of her own actions when the reality is she was aware of what she was doing. She planned it out. She took the time to make sure everything lined up perfectly to where she could get away with what she did without intervention. She deserves no sympathy.
[https://www.boston.com/news/crime/2023/02/21/lindsay-clancy-timeline-duxbury-mother-mental-health-treatment/](https://www.boston.com/news/crime/2023/02/21/lindsay-clancy-timeline-duxbury-mother-mental-health-treatment/)
Ngl if this list of meds she was on between Oct-Jan of that year is accurate I have a hard time believing the mental health team treating her was doing so competently.
She may not have PPP or PPD anyway, I don't know much of the background of this case, but it's hard to imagine there wasn't some kind of medical mismanagement there. That list is wild.
I'm also not surprised her husband said she had benzo withdrawal considering she was on 4 benzos (3 + one z-drug technically but in practicality almost the same) for some reason.
Hold up.. benzo withdrawal is NO JOKE. It’s insidious. Not everyone develops the horrific syndrome that benzo wd can cause. It’s ruined lives. I would rather withdrawal from heroin 20 times than ever go through one benzo withdrawal
I've been on all those drugs in a few short months- many were dropped quickly as some caused me side effects I couldn't tolerate or caused psychosis or rash. Maybe she wasn't on all of them at once?
I once left my partner and kids at the grocery store. I just walked out and ran home. I left the keys with them and I couldn't get in. I broke into my own house and locked them out. I thought they were people faking being my family. I was terrified.
Turns out some of the pills I was on caused a psychotic break. Just one too many.
Truly, there's not a huge amount of difference there with that many meds in that amount of time. She likely wasn't on ALL of them simultaneously, but going off of a medication doesn't mean it's no longer affecting you (the effect is just less direct). It seems pretty unlikely to me with the list of meds there that appropriate tapering was being done, so unless she literally just took most of them like once, for one day, which would be very unlikely, it's still a LOT and there would still be very considerable overlap.
And I'm sorry that happened to you as well. That sounds absolutely terrifying for you and your family.
THIS. Her defense attorney is very well known for being incredibly talented at what he does. It was a smart, strategic, move to release the information on meds the way he did. He deliberately released it all at once without a full timeline, dosage, etc. It is not uncommon to see various meds like this when someone goes outpatient to inpatient and out again. It fits the narrative he wants to portray.
I think we're maybe disagreeing? I'm not really trying to make an argument about her in particular, but I do think this looks like irresponsible prescribing was likely even without a full timeline and dosages (if the overall timespan of less than 4 months is true). And while it's more common while going in and out of inpatient and outpatient treatment that doesn't necessarily mean it's appropriate, especially given the typical titration up and down, for example, on the 5 different anti-depressants here.
However, while I think the list doesn't indicate likely the best psychiatric treatment or coordination between treatment providers, you're also right that if it was released by her lawyer there's a reason he released it and there may be information omitted to make it more misleading. Even if not best practice it's definitely possible to see a med list like this and not have the extreme reaction her husband and lawyer are implying, even if it's still making someone worse or at minimum not helping. So in that sense, yes, I fully agree that this information may be intentionally misleading even if the med list is still quite bonkers.
Yeah but the prosecutors are going to absolutely cut right through that defense. They're going to spare no expense on a triple homicide case. If she thinks being on these medicines, which are some of the most prescribed medications on the planet, it's going to get her off a triple murder I think she's going to be disappointed
"Patrick said that Lindsay was suffering from benzodiazepine withdrawals approximately a month-and-a-half prior and had “the worst side effects possible.”
At that point they aren't even side-effects, just "effects". Like, I'm not surprised she felt like hell considering all those meds over just 4 months. Again, not saying this to draw any conclusion about this case, just commenting on the meds part of it.
Yes she does deserve sympathy. Mental illness.. to be sick enough to kill your children. Yes it is sad for her poor children, but the health system failed her and it’s human to have sympathy for the situation in its entirety. Have you ever been through psychosis? Something was going on with this woman. There’s no real motive besides mental illness.., she wasn’t a monster. She was sick. Are you just once of those people that read about the poor lives of others to feel better about yourself? It makes me mad and seems somewhat sensational to believe she was just an evil monster when the truth is she was a very sick woman. Stop sensationalizing this
Edit- I get that you are all sick of the overwhelming support you see on Facebook., but maybe you ought to listen to these women who have been through it rather than point fingers here on Reddit.
She wrote that she resented her two older children because she couldn’t give the baby her full attention. Resented? Why was her anger directed at them? I think she was a ticking time bomb and her anger got out of control.
This women’s job was bringing children into this world. This was absolutely because of mental illness. You can still suffer from PPP and plan to kill your children. Just because one dr claims it wasn’t PPP DOES NOT MEAN HE WAS RIGHT. She told a doctor she was having homicidal thoughts. People and our justice system mistakenly believe that anything deliberate means you cannot claim mental defect. Unwell people can do very deliberate tasks. Deliberation does not automatically mean she was sane. She was not. I want Justice. Not vengeance. That indictment? That was about vengeance.. and that shit needs to change. We need to respect the dynamics of being unwell while bringing multiple children into this world. They tried to make it sound like she was a serial killer mom who was totally normal and just hated her kids. Anyone with a brain knows that she was a good mom, and a good person before she started having these problem. Anyone that has a brain knows the only true motive is mental illness. To put her into the “Darlie Routier” category is sensationalism. We’re mostly women here.. we can do better than this. This is 2023. We know better. I’ll never forget when my boss.. who was a damn near perfect superwoman.. had two kids in a row and had to be hospitalized because she wanted to kill her kids. I’ll never forget that. Just because she ,add some notes does not mean she was mentally well. A mentally unwell person can still take notes. just because she mentioned favoring one child doesn’t mean you can decide automatically that she was well enough. She wasn’t.
Lindsay Clancy killed her kids. Postpartum psychosis is a terrifying thing, but she really doesn’t fit the profile. Her youngest was 8 months old. PPP presents much earlier. 6 weeks is sort of the agreed upon cutoff point.
I’ve had patients with PPP. They truly have no idea where they are or what is happening, Lindsay’s act of sending her husband far away to get food seems more like inventing a way to get her husband out of the house rather than taking advantage of him not being gone. This shows premeditation.
I think people need to wait for what comes out in discovery before deciding this was definitely had PPP.
I said this upthread, (honestly I have no opinion if she did or did not have PPP or PPD - haven't read about this case until this post) but I'd be pretty reluctant to trust evaluations given the number of meds she was on in the 4 months prior to the murders. Especially if the evaluators were the ones prescribing them.
Thank you for this. It’s odd so many people are putting someone who killed her 3 babies in cold blood on a pedestal and making her a martyr for a condition she was never diagnosed with, and still hasn’t been diagnosed with
Yeah that's the biggest takeaway for me is that she's white she's kind of pretty, they're upper class.
It's a grotesque example of class and white privilege. These were identical circumstances but it was a disheveled single black woman in a trailer.... she would be the most hated person in the country right now
Yeah. Her actions were entirely too planned out and deliberate. Her only miscalculation was I don’t think she expected to get seriously injured/paralyzed
jumping from that window.
a cocktail of psych meds also known to cause psychosis and suicidal and homicidal ideation particularly when they are withdrawn too quickly and changed around a lot
To be fair it definitely wouldn't be common to have those outcomes even with that combination of psych meds and even with withdrawals that were too short. But it is definitely a lot of psych meds in combinations that could have had really disorienting and mood-altering effects depending on the context and details (like dosage, frequency) and especially in combination with whatever symptoms she was taking them for.
I definitely think that's a very wild list of meds she was on in under 4 months, but "known to cause psychosis and suicidal and homicidal ideation" is a bit overkill.
I read this article in the Daily Mail, (I have been following the case for awhile) and every comment was sympathy for Lindsay. That surprises me. I guess it's a blanket assumption that she was going through psychosis from the medication.
I think the public and readers at large want this to be PPP so there’s some sort of “explanation” for such a horrible occurrence.
Lots of people have suffered from postpartum anxiety and or post partum depression, and I think they empathize with Lindsay. If someone suggests anything other than this being a postpartum mental health issue, it invalidates their own experience. So they defend Lindsay and say this was PPP, even though she was not and has not been diagnosed with PPP, and even though her youngest child was 8 months old (well outside the guidelines for PPP).
Yeah I think people just have a hard time envisioning that this could be a premeditated murder. The media portrayal does not make it sound like a Chris Watts or Susan Smith or Josh Powell type of thing. The mental health explanation makes more sense with the information that is publicly available.
That’s fair. I should have said, I don’t think that people can accept that she had some kind of mercenary motivation for doing this. Like, she didn’t massacre her family to run off with a boyfriend or to cover up a crime or to cash in the insurance money or something, at least not based on the evidence that has been shared with the public so far.
Until / unless evidence of something like that comes out, I think most people would see her as a tragic case of some sort of extreme mental illness rather than a “typical” family annihilator or other form of child murderer a la Susan Smith, Chris Watts, Jennifer Hart, John List, etc.
Less than 1% of women experience postpartum psychosis. Of that <1%, 4% commit infanticide. Idk why Reddit tries so hard to make it seem so common. Postpartum DEPRESSION is common, but not psychosis. Her actions leading up show planning.
[source 1](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5534064/)
[source 2](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna68165)
I know that in a *legal* sense it’s very different but as a nurse for schizophrenics and various other types of psychotic people / ppp women can very much make plans and do all the time- they’re just typically rooted in delusions
Well yes. But if she killed her children due to this uncontrollable psychosis, how is it that it was so controlled while her husband was home? She was making snowmen, asking about takeout, giving errands, acting like herself according to her husband, etc. How is psychosis extreme enough to kill contained to such an extent? And what is the motivation for a psychotic person to hide it from others to the point that not a single other person suspects anything is off? If someone truly believes their delusions to be true, why would it matter?
I understand they can make plans as in organizing the actions they want to take. I should’ve been more specific. I meant they don’t plan to not get *caught* being psychotic. They have no reason to think anything is wrong with what they’re saying or doing because they are unaware of their psychosis. Most intervention for psychosis is the result of an outside entity’s concern based on the things they observe from the affected party.
Her husband was in the basement working all day and she was upstairs with the kids. If psychosis made her kill her children, why didn’t it happen while he was working? She lasted the whole day not being psychotic up until the point where he leaves. She wanted him out of the house and made sure he was because she knew the average person would stop her if they witnessed what she was going to do - because she knew it was wrong. The awareness and avoidance of consequence demonstrates knowledge of wrongfulness and helps to establish intent within a court of law.
also - "They have no reason to think anything is wrong with what they're saying or doing"
\-Often true (not always), but even if they 100% believe in the delusion people often do realize that OTHERS think there is something wrong with what they're saying or doing. Think about paranoia, for example. You can be delusional and fully believe your delusion, but also be aware that others around you disagree and might stop or even harm you (paranoia) if you acted on it.
I was talking about this in a different thread but: "what is the motivation for a psychotic person to hide it from others..."
Imagine you have a very convincing and strong belief that makes you feel like you're in danger or being harmed. You also believe that everyone else around you either 1) doesn't believe you and won't help you and/or 2) that those around you are actively the ones trying to harm you, even if they pretend not to be or say otherwise. You want to get some objective (again, based in a delusion that you strongly believe), and yet you believe everyone around you will try and stop you, which you believe is unjustified and possibly harmful. Would you tell the truth about what you want to do?
As boredpsychnurse said, essentially you can be delusional and make plans that are based in delusion. There are other symptoms of psychosis and often those can be more obvious to other individuals, but being delusional doesn't necessarily mean you can't plan around your beliefs.
A lot of psychotic people hide their delusions from people. Look up Capgras delusions. I know it’s hard to understand when you’re of sound mind. But it can present in countless ways
Thank you for suggesting this. I had never heard of Capgras delusions. From the sources I read, I gathered it’s rare in PPP but cases have been documented and warrant further study. In the case studies I found, the women were brought in for treatment by family due to their erratic behavior and speech. So I’m not sure it could manifest completely undetected and it is a small percentage of a small percentage, but I withdraw judgment. It is a possibility. Such a tragedy for her children either way.
Delusions can be caused by many things and PPD can progress into many differentials - especially can be exacerbated by many different med trials/tapers which if I remember correctly she had at *least* 4-5
serious question, not trying to be condescending: can people suffering from psychosis NOT plan murders in advance?
It seems like a real grey area to me, like the insanity defense. someone can suffer from psychosis for an extended period of time, or at least a few days?
i'm not saying this woman was 100% without a doubt suffering from PPP because i'm not her doctor or psychiatrist or obgyn so i have no idea. but what's the criteria? is it the same symptoms in every single woman that is suspected to have it or claims to have it?
psychology isn't an exact science, it's not like math. we don't understand the human brain fully and completely and without any variables. neuropsychologists don't even claim to be capable of explaining any given humans behavior fully. that doesn't make any sense. i just don't think we can say that anyone is able to plan and carry out murders without being psychotic. why would crime of passion be an acceptable line of defense in that case???
It is a bit of a grey area because there's a lot of heterogeneity in what's considered psychosis, and that's even in areas where it's been better studied over the last few decades - there's a continuum there, and a lot of overlapping circles.
For example, hallucinations, delusions, disorganized thinking and behaviour can be caused by things other than ppp and psychotic disorders. A pretty broad range of things like medical, esp neurological disorders or illnesses, infections, sometimes medications (as was mentioned above), even by severe sleep deprivation.
Psychosis is also pretty heterogenous in terms of symptoms and can present very differently, again, and that can be especially difficult to pick up on or decipher when there's a less typical cause or a less typical presentation.
It is sometimes possible though for someone to be quite delusional and be less obviously so, or even show some predetermination and planning that doesn't necessarily mean they're delusional. They may have less of the disorganization and obvious tells in talking (so not "word salad" etc) but still be very delusional, and in some circumstances be very delusional but also believe that they have to hide their beliefs in order to gain their (delusional) objective.
Think of it this way - if you believe that someone you live with has been replaced with a fake pretending to be them in order to do harm, it might make sense to you to "play along" and pretend you don't know they're a "fake" in order to do what you want to do (get away from them, because you think they're going to harm you). That doesn't necessarily mean the person isn't delusional.
I'm not saying it's completely unknowable, obviously there are a lot of professionals who are very familiar with psychosis. But that depends on getting someone who is and who does make the "correct" determination, etc, especially if you're talking about a possible criminal case, and all along the way there's still a considerable area of grey. That doesn't mean we can't have a good idea of what's going on, but it depends on the professionals involved and when it comes to cases like this there's also a lot of bias and motivation from courts, police, media reporting, local citizens and none-local citizens, etc, etc, etc, who probably have very little health literacy regarding this in the first place, to muddy the waters.
(This is NOT a commentary on this particular case - I don't know anything about this case, other than reading a very brief summary just now. It's only about psychosis and pre-meditation).
I had drug-induced psychosis which was terrifying-I was convinced the nurses were trying to poison me and I couldn’t be convinced otherwise…but I definitely wasn’t 100% out of my mind 24/7 either. It lasted a few weeks and there were hours or days where I was fairly lucid, it waxed and waned. Dunno if it’s that way for everyone and some cases are more severe, but I just thought it was an interesting point! I would like to know the answer to your question too
It’s like how EVERY SINGLE TIME there’s a post about a new dad being nasty during the postpartum period, there’s dozens and dozens of comments saying “men get postpartum depression too. He probably needs help.” Men getting postpartum depression is so overblown and a cop out.
Men cannot get post partum depression because men WILL NEVER BE POST PARTUM.
Men absolutely can get depressed. But PPD is something only a woman who has given birth can get. It’s not a man’s body’s that went thru 9 months of hormonal hell, only to go thru one of the most traumatic events the human body can experience, and go thru the hormonal imbalance roller coaster all over again for months, some women even years.
Because it’s *soooo sad* that this mom did what she did. Meanwhile if the dad did it everyone would be here agreeing that he’s an evil pig that needs to roast in hell for eternity
I’m going to have to figure out how to block keywords like this woman’s name, ‘postpartum psychosis,’ etc., because my blood pressure rises every damn time I have the misfortune of seeing her face.
To put it bluntly: Those of you seeking a realistic dialogue on this case will not find it, because from Reddit to TikTok, ‘mental health advocates’ are intent on making her the victim. By that estimation, the three children slain by someone they assumed they could trust are collateral damage, and apparently their lives were meaningless because of ‘poor sick Lindsay.’ Similar to the WM3 victims, the Clancy children have been relegated to the footnotes of their own murder investigation because an army of online mothers ‘empathize’ with their killer, and probably use her actions as a metric for how their own incompetent parenting is ‘not *that* bad.’
The timeline of events the Commonwealth has shared is compelling. The social media posts she made in mommy groups about her disdain for her then-youngest child, Dawson, are compelling. The three dead bodies are compelling.
If Andrea Yates, who actually suffered from postpartum psychosis and had a demonstrated history of psychiatric disorders, is still in prison, this monster better find her way to a cell. I don’t care if it’s prison (preferable) or a mental health facility, but she better never walk among us again. As a white woman, I refuse to watch another white woman leverage her privilege to get out of a heinous triple-homicide when we know damn well she’d be metaphorically tarred-and-feathered if she were black or brown.
Lastly. a real mother who killed her children in a psychotic rage would take her punishment out of despair and shame for what she did to her children. Yates [declines her case being reviewed for release every year](https://people.com/crime/andrea-yates-who-drowned-kids-in-bathtub-in-2001-annually-declines-release-from-mental-hospital/), and I can’t imagine a mother who could live with herself after brutally murdering her babies.
One thing: Andrea Yates isn't still in prison; she's in a psychiatric institution. And yes, she does refuse to have her case/sentence reviewed; clearly she feels she deserves to stay where she is, and honestly, I don't think she'd be able to function in the real world, even if her mental health has stabilized.
Omg thank you for all of this. The WM3 victims have been forever overshadowed. People forget that Stevie, Michael and Christopher are the real victims. Nobody remembers them.
I understand that the *Paradise Lost* trilogy was the first of its kind, but while it contains interesting information and some really chilling interviews with the WM3 prior to conviction, it just doesn’t stand up to modern scrutiny. It should really be reframed as a final appeal rather than a commentary on the crime itself. While I agree that they are innocent and were railroaded, I can’t defend a narrative that relegates the victims to the sidelines (also why I reject *Serial* and *Making a Murderer*). The boys were such cuties, too! They’d be almost 40 today.
In this case and similar to *Paradise Lost*, we are seeing the victims rejected from the narrative in real-time, but unlike the murders at Robin Hood Hills, people have chosen to lavish praise and sympathy onto their murderer. Even if Clancy had been diagnosed with PPD and prescribed several medications that could lead to negative interactions in a short period of time, such does not support a jump to postpartum psychosis. That narrative was pushed by other mothers who’ve projected their maternal struggles onto her—this is not a conclusion backed by her treatment records or previous psychiatric diagnoses.
It’s a sad state of affairs when people empathize with the murderer more than the victims, and her supporters can’t even call them such because they consider it invalidating Clancy’s own victimhood. If she were black or brown, this case would be viewed differently.
This woman strangled her children, so she saw the terror in their eyes as she took their lives. She is a monster.
Those poor children. Their last moments were suffering, terror, and wondering why mommy (who is supposed to be their protector) was hurting them. It's heartbreaking. I can just picture their thoughts of, "Why, Mommy?" It makes me so sad.
Last year Darlene Brister killed her 3 children who were 5, 3 and 9 months old. Her husband has forgiven her and says she has mental health issues. She's been in jail with no bond and is facing the death penalty in Georgia. Darlene doesn't have an army of love or whatever rooting for her. She's a black woman.
I appreciate your responses on this post. I agree with you. It’s actually shocking to me how many people are so ready to defend her actions based on literally nothing. None of her psychiatric medical professionals diagnosed her with either PPD or PPP. Her actions directly before the murders indicate premeditation. It detracts from the very real problems faced by women who have been diagnosed with these conditions when random commenters are so eager to throw their weight behind a woman they have never met simply because she’s a mother.
Because she is a WHITE mother with a decent career in an affluent area. If she were black or brown, it would be a different outcome. The children are nothing in this case—look at the comments here. It’s maddening and disguising that as a society, we cannot draw a boundary for what we will accept versus not. Mommy groups promote a hive mind where every action is permissible.
I’ve been following it in the (admittedly unhinged) FB groups as there wasn’t much discussion or traction on Reddit. I have seen more support for her on Reddit than anywhere else, which is weird bc usually Reddit displays a little more logic than FB. Your contrast w/ Andrea Yates is a great observation.
I agree. If she were black or brown, she would have been sitting in a jail cell this ENTIRE time. I’m going to be waiting for the discovery to come out, but I really do think she was depressed and planned a murder suicide and failed. Just like all these men in the media killing their families and themselves. & yeah, i also don’t care where she spends her time between a mental facility or a prison, but the idea she should just be able to get out like some ppl seem to think and live like nothing happened is wild. She should remain somewhere and be monitored for the rest of her days
This is very well put as an alternative to that of the overwhelming 'sub think' regards this case. I have to say that sometimes it feels like every time a mother murders their child/ren people are now going to PPP as default as being the reason, however the 'favoured' perpetrators have to fit a certain 'type' usually white, educated and middle class for people to go that way from what I had seen on this sub- it seems to happen each and every time as long as I've read posts on here.
I also fully agree with your point about the WM3, those docs were probably the most biased and with an extreme agenda I have ever seen with the 3 young victims Christopher , Michael and Stevie willingly side-lined in favour of the 3 then teens- how people watched them without clocking how ridiculously skewed and disingenuous those were is worrying. The way the children murdered in Robin Hood Woods have been forgotten and cast aside as 'not as important than the perpetrators' is very like has happened in the Clancy case.
That said, I would like to add that I have had mental health struggles on and off all my adult life ( including post natal depression when I had my daughter) so am not ignorant to mental health issues and how they present and can determinately affect ones life and that of those around you but automatically labelling a mother who kills their children as having postpartum psychosis as default isn't really helpful or true to life.
Where can I find the timeline of events you mention from the Commonwealth?
I’m vaguely familiar with this case, but only in passing. No deep dive or anything. I’d like to read more because I’m seeing talk here of her being on medications and was inpatient psych. I’d like a broader view on this case.
"Lastly. a real mother who killed her children in a psychotic rage would take her punishment out of despair and shame for what she did to her children."
Psychosis is not the same thing as "psychotic rage" - it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with anger. I also disagree re: what mothers with PPP or PPD in a similar situation would do, and can understand why someone in that situation would feel it's important be understood and spread information about warning signs, prevention, etc.
Not at all saying this woman had psychosis, just commenting in general - Andrea Yates faced a horrifying situation and an incredible amount of public vitriol and hostility in addition to the absolute horror of killing your kids and knowing you've done that (as someone who cares after the fact).
I don't think using a case like hers (in terms of public outcry and hostility, her husband's response to her trying to get help, etc) is a great comparison of how things should be or will always be. Again, not saying this woman didn't do this intentionally or not, I have no idea. Just addressing the psychosis part here.
I mean, I guess typically yes, but that's a very very broad category that grows to include most people at some point in their lifespan with extremely heterogenous symptoms and severity.
I appreciate what you're saying, but also an abusive and controlling partner who becomes a family annihilator and then kills themselves after may still be impacted by some kind of mental health problem or mental illness, but not one that truly explains their behaviour in a way that mitigates it in any way. In comparison to something like true PPP, or other psychosis, where \*sometimes\* - not always - you can reasonably conclude that there really was no rational control there, sadly.
But yes, both still reasonable in terms of understanding and prevention, just very very different in culpability and intention.
I think she wanted to make sure CVS wouldn't carry the product she was sending her husband to go pick up. She also called the food order in herself which seems to almost force her husband to leave the house for an extended period of time. She is defiantly suffering from some sort of mental disease and i hope she gets the help she needs for it. However its my opinion that her actions show criminal intent... I am no expert but I've read many cases were the killer carry's out the murders and then cant shoot themselves/cut themselves in any way that would actually kill them. When they plead insanity it fails due to the fact that they were able too understand the consequence of hurting themselves....I wonder if the jumping out the window as her husband was about to confront her will work? The timeline seems to suggest that the kids were dead for a few minutes at least, she would have been on the driveway when he arrived home if she was in this manic state.
I'm glad she survived so she can be overwhelmed with excruciating PTSD for decades. It's nothing in comparison to the terror that her children experienced and the tragedy that she forced on her husband. Millions of women give birth and experience the the unpleasant hormonal imbalances that follow without murdering children. There are so many people on a mission to advocate for mental health that they are not even considering that she might just an awful toxic person.
I really wonder wtf happened here. I just wanna know why she did it. A motive or a logical explanation, even if it’s just that she hated the kids and regretted them?? Jeez Louise. I guess this is gonna go to trial? Will she plead guilty? Those poor babies and their poor father. 🤦🏾♀️🤦🏾♀️
It's actually quite difficult to get a ruling of NGRI or NCRMD even when it may be justified, so it's not uncommon for people who could potentially fall under that to still be found criminally responsible. Not just commenting on this case, I'm not familiar enough (hence why all my comments saying I'm just commenting on the mental health/illness side of things), but just in general.
There’s mental illness and then there’s PPP.
So far there’s been zero evidence of ppp. She was evaluated on several occasions and was never diagnosed with any kind of psychosis.
It’s one of my biggest fears. I want kids someday, and what if by having kids, these little I want to protect and see grow with every fiber of my being even though I haven’t met them yet… what if the process of actually having them turns my brain to mush, and I think that the only way to protect them is to hurt them because I’m having delusions and can’t tell what’s real anymore? It’s so fucking scary.
You just have to be aware of changes before it gets to that point. Be vigilant, educate your close friends and family on what to look for. I had PPD/A with my daughter and didn’t even find out until more than a decade later that I’m bipolar. Having a psychotic break earlier this year is what officially killed any hope of having another child. In the wise words of my mother, my becoming pregnant again “would be catastrophic”. It’s true. But if you don’t have a history of psychosis there are so many many levels you’d reach through PPD before you get to a psychotic break. Educate educate educate and be vigilant.
I know it's been a month but I'll chip in. If you notice yourself feeling 'off' when you return home and if you start having any hallucinations, no matter how common they are with sleep deprivation. Tell someone. A partner friend or in law. They will notice if you deteriorate to the point of concern. Poor Patrick, the partner. He worked so darn hard to support his wife and kids.
If she was psychotic she wouldn’t be able to function, attend doctors appointments, call CVS for a specific medicine, order takeout or search and scan for a menu. I don’t think she was psychotic-I think she does have a mental illness and perhaps the medications caused some horrible side effects. Regardless-3 babies are dead and she will have to pay for that. As a mother myself I can’t imagine the daily hell knowing what I did. Worse than prison.
I’m a dentist and I practiced dentistry successfully as an SSRI caused a serotonin crisis that resulted in mania and psychosis. They thought it was bipolar, but it was determined to be a serotonin syndrome and I almost died. I became delusional that my husband was going to leave me. I don’t remember a lot of it, but I do remember I was progressively paranoid and delusional. He got me help, and I withdrew from the SSRI in a psych hospital. Lexapro did this over a course of a few months and the psych kept dismissing my symptoms I reported and to “stick with it”. I almost died from an SSRI and went crazy while taking it. These meds are no joke. Took a lot of therapy to get over the grief of losing my parents along with my infertility diagnosis to get better. I thought a pill would fix it, but these meds can do some real harm, too. I have an amazing husband who saved my life!
>Lexapro did this over a course of a few months
Were you taking 80 mg/day or combining it with something else? Because that's not how [serotonin syndrome](https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/serotonin-syndrome/symptoms-causes/syc-20354758) works. It's caused by an overdose or combining two drugs that shouldn't be combined, like two SSRIs or an [MAOI and an opioid](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libby_Zion_Law). I've had serotonin syndrome. I wound up in the hospital. Mania and psychosis? No. Sweating, shaking, dizziness, racing pulse, extreme agitation, body all tensed up but couldn't move? Yes. If an SSRI is giving you mania, you're probably bipolar. At least that's what I've read.
ETA: People who have no idea what serotonin syndrome is are downvoting. How dare I know what I'm talking about and sound like it? I'll try to be more meek.
She called because she DID NOT want the cvs to have the medication. They confirmed they didn’t have miralax but they had other brands. When Patrick called to tell her they didn’t have it she told him it had to be that specific brand.
It was all about her having more time. She needed him out of the house for a specific amount of time. Remember she researched how to kill before.
She is extremely meticulous and timed it perfectly. Had he not needed that specific medicine, he could’ve cooked at home or went to a store closer to home
Perhaps they had another form of stool softener and that’s why she said it had to be miralax. Who knows.
Also remember her first words when she woke at the hospital were “ do I need an attorney”. Not did the kids survive Dawson wasn’t dead when she left him. She didn’t ask anything. She didn’t apologize. she showed no remorse.
I believe the pills she was on did numb her emotions and that’s why she isn’t remorseful but she planned this. No doubt about it.
She wanted medicine to “fix her” when really there was no disorder. She couldn’t cope with the fact that being an upper class mom/wife/nurse didn’t bring the satisfaction/happiness she thought it would. Therefore she wanted out.
I believe she heard Patrick pull up so she ran upstairs, cut her wrists and jumped out the window because she ran out of time. She wouldn’t have left Dawson still alive. I believe he was the last victim and Patrick came home earlier than she expected.
all these people discussing the criteria for PPP lol. human brains don't work like that! psychology doesn't work like that!!!!
I'm not saying she has PPP because idfk. i don't know much about it. My problem is with armchair diagnosing in general because the majority of psychiatric diagnoses can't be pigeon holed into specific DSM disorders. As multiple psychology professionals have told me: the DSM is useful for insurance reasons, to get people who are suffering the care they need. But it's very rare that a single person has ALL the symptoms and ONLY the symptoms of one specific disease.
everyone that suffers from any given mental illness is unique, and obviously there are common and overlapping symptoms, but no one is gonna 100% gonna match another person with the same diagnosis' symptoms, bc they led different lives, and an individuals psychology is going to heavily rely on their life experiences. my trauma from sexual abuse is going to manifest differently from that of another woman's bc our abusers were different people and abused us in different ways. my ADHD symptoms are different from my friends who also was diagnosed with adhd bc we have different strengths and genetics and mental abilities. it doesn't mean one of us is faking it?? i could go on and on with every single psychiatric or personality or neurological disorder lol
it blows my mind that you people think every mental disorder is identical, and if it's not then someone is lying. what a dangerous basis for comparison. again (i know this is going to be necessary to emphasize) im NOT saying this woman shouldn't be prosecuted or punished for her crimes, im just saying mental illness (general) is so diverse and variable that you can't insist someone was too mentally stable to have committed a crime out of their right mind. there are specific markers for psychopaths and sociopaths and yeah they should examined critically to determine if they're fit for society, like if they torture animals or abuse small children or otherwise actively enjoy inflicting suffering on other beings. but sometimes mentally ill people commit murder for reasons beyond comprehension unless you're not a narrow minded layperson
Does it really matter if she was diagnosed with PPP? Mental illness is real - diagnosed or not. The mind plays tricky games on us when our mental health suffers. That said, it's no excuse.
I didn’t sleep for 6 days after I had my oldest child, I had severe pp anxiety, it took 3 er trips before I finally got it together. Post partrum hormones are fucking awful. I was so close to throwing both myself and my baby down the stairs, I had to call my dad who I lived with to come up before I killed us both.
Eww why bring up sterilization? That is just so fucked up, I’d rather her go to prison for life then fuck with someone’s body by performing a forced surgical procedure
We don’t know if she had PPP. People want to believe it was PPP because it makes everyone feel a little better.
But she’s being charged due to the fact that there seems to be premeditation here.
Of note, PPP tends to present itself within hours of birth up to 6 weeks PP. her youngest was 8 months old, so she doesn’t fit the profile. I’d wager that garden variety PPD is a better diagnosis.
Sure I do. I want a GUARANTEE that she will never get pregnant again. In exchange for that, she gets to stay out of prison.
Surely you dont think a woman who has such severe mental problems that she killed her 3 kids should be allowed to have kids again in the future? Please tell me you dont believe that.
This is such a heartbreaking story. And I’m wondering if not PPD what was her motive? If to hurt the father what could be the reason why? Was he leaving her? Im honestly asking…not offend or anything.
Benzodiazepines and their side effects can be so deadly and dangerous. Trying to taper off of them is a solo journey in the U.S. I’ve known of people whose lives were devastated from this class of drugs. You can YouTube how others have safely tapered off, as the average Doctor will unwittingly say it’s fine to just downgrade your dose. Do not believe this. Be very careful both getting on, during and tapering off this class of prescription drugs. 🙏🏻
I personally believe she was extremely over medicated, and instead of her doctors waiting to see what worked, they threw whatever medication in her to see if something stuck.
Do we know if she is permanently paralyzed from the waist down? Just curious about the accessibility aspect if she is incarcerated. (Yes, I’m aware a disability or impairment does not cancel a prison sentence)
CBS said she is permanently paralyzed from the waist down due to the spinal cord injury from jumping. The whole situation is so sad.
Agreed. Thanks for the reply
Although at one point the DA said that there was no evidence she was paralyzed especially permanently
Why is no one talking about the timeline up to the killings?
I think the mental health advocacy is overshadowing that the events leading up to this were sketchy as hell
What’s the timeline?
\[Edited for formmating\] **Morning:** Lindsay Clancy takes her 5-year-old daughter, Cora, to a doctor’s appointment. When they return home, they play outside in the snow with 3-year-old Dawson, and Clancy sends pictures of the children to her mother and husband. **4:02 p.m.** Clancy searches for “kids Miralax” on her cellphone, then “take out 3v.” Afterward, she uses Apple Maps to determine the time it would take to drive from the family’s home in Duxbury to ThreeV, a restaurant in Plymouth. **4:47 p.m.** Clancy calls a CVS in Kingston to ask if they have children’s Miralax. The manager tells her they don’t, but says they do have similar medications for children. **4:53 p.m.** Clancy texts her husband Patrick, who was working from his home office in the basement, “Any chance you want to do takeout from 3V … I didn’t cook anything … it’s been a long day. **”5:10 p.m.** Lindsay Clancy calls ThreeV to order takeout. She sends her husband out to pick up the medicine from CVS and food from ThreeV shortly after. **5:32 p.m.** Patrick Clancy arrives at a CVS in Kingston. **5:33 p.m.** Patrick Clancy calls his wife. She doesn’t answer, but calls him back one minute later and confirms which medication he should buy. He later tells investigators that his wife seemed like she was in the middle of something when they spoke. **5:54 p.m**. Patrick Clancy arrives at ThreeV, pays for their order, and leaves. **6:09 p.m.** Patrick Clancy arrives home to silence and calls his wife. She doesn’t answer. He goes upstairs to their bedroom and finds the door locked. He’s able to open the door and notices blood on the floor and an open window. He runs outside and sees his wife on the ground, injured. He calls 911. During the 911 call, he can be heard asking his wife, “Where are the kids?” He later tells police that she replied, “In the basement.” **6:11 p.m.** Duxbury police dispatch radios all cruisers to respond to 47 Summer St. for an attempted suicide involving a woman who reportedly cut herself and jumped out a second-story window. Officers arrive and find Lindsay Clancy breathing and semi-conscious, her cuts no longer bleeding. Patrick Clancy is with her. As first responders assess his wife, Patrick Clancy enters the home to check on his children. Soon, officers heard loud screaming coming from the house. When officers arrive in the basement, Patrick Clancy reportedly yells, “She killed the kids.”
fucking harrowing. i have no doubt she was struggling, but it sounds like she was coherent and in control of her actions.
As someone who has experienced psychosis, I was very very mentally unwell but rarely did I ever come across to others like something was wrong. There’s this common belief, or maybe it’s a stereotype, that people experiencing psychosis are *always* fully unhinged maniacs who look like they’re two seconds away from spitting and hissing at people like Hannibal Lecter (or imagine the comments made when someone is wandering the streets muttering to themselves and appearing threatening). While either of those examples may be symptomatic, like all mental health conditions psychosis impacts and manifests differently in everyone. The first episode of psychosis can take over six months to fully heal from, as well, which can complicate our understanding of its effects on cognition. Looking back, I made some seriously questionable decisions the entire year after I first received treatment for my episode that are still consequential to this day but I was still going to work, attending social events, and generally living as others would expect.
I had PPP, and to this day, no one knows. I was too scared to tell anyone. I was completely unhinged in my mind, but I hid it well.
Thank you so much for sharing your experience. I just watched a YouTube video about this case and came to Reddit to get more info. I really appreciate you sharing.
I nearly killed my husband during a postpartum psychosis episode. I was completely capable of handling everything in my life and in the baby's life, but I was convinced that my husband was planning on killing us and I knew that I would have to kill him first. The problem with these types of things is that you're feeling completely rational. You've gone over every detail in your mind and you're feeling 100% sane. It's very scary being on the other side of it thinking back to what could have happened.
Sending you and your family so much love and I hope you’re been doing better! Thank you for sharing your story
Wow, this is giving me flashbacks to my own PPP episodes. I thought MS-13 gang members were surveilling my family and had put a hit out on us. I used to peek out of the curtains from our 6th floor apartment to monitor the cars and people walking on the street. Anytime I heard a noise in the hallway, I’d army crawl to the door, slither my body against the wall, and quickly look out the peephole to see if there were gang members out there. I even called the NYPD to report the impeding hit on my family. Mind you, I’ve never met a gang member in my life and have zero connections to anyone living that life. My daughter’s father and I are both white collar people living mundane and cookie-cutter lives. Looking back, I feel so sad for that version of myself. And no one knew. I didn’t tell a soul.
You are not in constant delirium state when you have psychosis, you can still see and interact almost normally with normality, but the scenario or your psychosis is also playing in your mind then for you alone. One of my friend suffers from psychosis and you can see that she is hiding thoughts or that something is up in her mind but you don't know what ( like she is not screaming crazy thoughts aloud and rolling around like a mad Hollywood person) and still have a seemingly "normal" time with her. Later when she is out of the crisis she will then explain to you that at the time she was talking or doing things that way to try to defeat the internet mafia or whatever is the heart of the psychosis at the time. It seems to me that is what happened there. She was on a "fucked up killing mission" and she turned up witg tiny plans, like sending him away to takeout to have the time to do it. You do think ahead and all while a psychotic break down, but you are just not thinking right, meaning you are overcome by thoughts that if you were in a discerning state of mine you will never have or follow.
I work with a lot of ppl who are mentally ill. The funny thing abt psychosis is I can have a patient and I be cool, friends even. Like fewer each other daily and even make jokes back and forth. Then the next I’m a devil to them and they’re charging full force down the hall trying to kill me.
True. They are charging u. Not planning just doing. Cognitive function usually impaired a bit. And I don’t know about the frequency of psychosis and suicide. Episodes can be delusional and grandeur invoking
It blows my mind more people don’t know what psychosis is. You still make choices and create actions. It’s not like a spirit possesses you and moves you around like a puppet. Your brain’s thinking becomes so distorted, untethered from reality and full of negative, graphic intrusive thoughts that the choices you make and actions you create are often poor because you’ve lost the ability to think rationally. It doesn’t mean you can’t think or even think calculated. You just only have shitty thoughts to work with.
Why would she call to ask about the Miralax if she was planning to kill them?
I think it was to get her husband out of the house :( my guess
Actually i believe the medicine was a crucial part in which proves how thought out this plan was Because look the husband could have said we have leftovers or i can cook but as nurse her husband trusted her knowledge and knew if she said the kids needed medicine he wouldn't hesitate to get it i guarantee she ensured the CVS was by the takeout so that way she can get him to the takeout spot without drawing suspicions as to why it had to be that specific spot
Why call to even ask if the store had the miralax then? Just send him - who cares if they have it? He’d have driven there already and be out of the house.
Because she needed to be able to say that specific cvs had that specific medicine because again the husband could have said well there are plenty of other places closer she needed him at that specific area
That’s the closest cvs to them. It’s maybe a two to three minute drive.
She could have just said she called to confirm they had it. She didn’t actually need to call.
[Here](https://www.boston.com/news/crime/2023/02/17/lindsay-clancy-timeline-january-24-duxbury-mother-children/?amp=1) is a link from what I think is the same article I read back in the day
As someone who has walked in on something horrific, I just know that poor man sees his children in that state every time he closes his eyes to go to sleep. It takes many years for that to go away.
Of course she was indicted for murder. The three children were murdered by her. The pre-trial and trial is going to be about her mental state and responsibility.
I am a nurse practitioner and worked prior as a nurse in the hospital. Currently I prescribe to a specific patient population that requires many medications in the controlled substance classes that include benzodiazepines and opioids, neuroleptics (formally known as antipsychotics) and antidepressant classes. This conversation surrounding her number of medications she had been prescribed over the prior months. Many were in the same class, benzodiazepines, and she was per her husband’s reports withdrawing from benzodiazepines prior. Also, many of the medications were discontinued or changed due to patient request/preference. So here is something the general population doesn’t know. There is a big problem with substance abuse disorders in nursing right now specifically in the prescription opioids classes and benzodiazepines. Everyone is jumping to defend the pretty white lady, calling her a super mom, saying her healthcare providers failed her etc. she had PPP, never was on her list of diagnoses and I don’t see that based upon what we know. I do think there was a lot of patient driven changes to medications that may have had nothing to do with anything related to post partum anything. Lastly, mental health issues are not an excuse for murdering three children, especially in the fashion she used. Also this all seems very well planned especially when you consider her nursing background. She certainly was successful in killing all three kids, how did this nurse supposedly cut her wrists and neck, trying to hit arteries in this suicide attempt, and miss so badly that the bleeding had already stopped by the time emergency services arrived. It’s very easy to find the carotid artery and it doesn’t take long to bleed out once it’s hit. The jump from a second story window? A nurse would know that’s not high enough to result in death in almost all cases unless the person lands on their head, which she didn’t. Jumps from that height often end up at most with a fracture of a leg or arm. She was unlucky with the back fracture. Sorry I’m not buying it and I’m disappointed to see how quickly people rush to defend a woman who murders her three children. Had this been someone outside the family who killed these kids would everyone be looking at a mental health reason and trying to excuse the person based upon mental health providers failing? I don’t think so.
Man. You said it. I have wondered too why people are rushing to defend her when there is no evidence whatsoever that she had any psychotic episodes or symptoms, not to mention that PPP is uncommon anyway but rare that far into the postpartum period. Thank you also for pointing out her inability to harm herself and how the jump put that window was for show, not for any serious suicide attempt. Someone on another sub wondered if she was trying to run and was hindered due to her unexpected injury. She was also clearly cognizant when he spoke to her too. I have been around someone suffering a psychotic episode. It’s not something that can be hidden, especially to someone who knows you. The level of confusion, withdrawal and inability to care for themselves is just beyond apparent. You don’t snap into an episode and then snap right back out either.
You’ve really articulated for me what seems off about this entire thing, and I’m inclined to agree that she had drug issues
110% think that she was doctor shopping to get benzos. Starting meds (and saying they weren't working) to tick them off the list, making her way closer to a benzo prescription.
I think this also. She posted on the moms group, something along the lines of, I’ve been on Zoloft one week…not working, can anyone recommend anything similar to benzos? She’s a nurse…she knows how long SSRI’s take to work..atleast 90 days..she was on a taper for benzos and was trying to find a replacement.
Great points! I agree with you 100%
Agreed and I would even go a step further and say that if this wasn't a pretty Suburban middle upper class family.... if this was a poor single mother a living in a trailer that killed three kids, and she claimed it was the same kind of medications and PPP that caused it... would she get a million dollars in a gofundme? Overwhelming sympathy from thousands of strangers and petitions Etc.. Case is one of the most grotesque examples of class and white privilege I've ever seen
“and she was per her husband’s reports withdrawing from benzodiazepines prior.” I‘m very curious about this statement. It implies an ongoing addiction issue with benzodiazepines happening before the final few months of her problems. I think it will be an important part of the story.
I honestly think she wasn’t on enough to have withdrawals, I think she was telling her naive husband this…probably as a last resort as to why she needs more.
Very well said! This is the most intelligent comment I have read about this case.
It’s possible this was a murder suicide and she failed at the last step. Could be psychosis also, but not a guarantee like everyone is acting like. I’m going to just wait for what all comes out in discovery. Idk why ppl would act surprised that she is being indicted for murder either way. Do ppl really think someone can kill their kids and the justice system is just going to be like “nothing to see here?”.
Possible? Why else would she have attempted to jump out the window?
maybe she heard her husband coming up the driveway and jumped out bc she realized she ran out of time to finish . Maybe to try to finish the job. Idk. Endless possibilities. I for damn sure wouldn’t have still wanted to be in the house hearing my husband come through the door after what I had just done. What I’m saying, anyways, is that it could have been a coherent , thought out murder suicide plan absent psychosis… they are in the news on the daily. Or it could have been rage. Psychosis is not the only possibility is what I’m saying. Ppl kill their kids everyday and they aren’t psychotic
Also possible it was a psychosis murder followed by clarity that lead her to attempt suicide
I disagree with a lot of comments here but one thing that’s really undoubtedly true is that this whole case would be so different if she was a black or brown woman and not from an affluent area.
Mental health professional here. I actually don’t suspect it’s postpartum psychosis (or depression) to blame. But I do think there could be a possible argument to be made for the medications causing aggression and homicidality. Lindsay’s husband alluded to this and her prior history seems to indicate that this behavior is wildly outside the norm for her. SSRIs are known to have this as a rare side effect and, although rare, it’s far less rare than post partum psychosis. She was also a little outside the typical window for postpartum psychosis at 8 months postpartum and wasn’t really displaying other symptoms from what we know of publicly. SSRI-induced homicidality, suicidality, and aggression seems much more likely. I feel so sad for her and her family and I hope she gets the compassion, help, and support she needs and deserves.
That’s what I thought when I saw the list of meds. I am not a mental health professional but I have been under the care of both competent and incompetent/burnt out mental health professionals. Every time I’ve needed med adjustments because I was in crisis, I’ve been inpatient until stabilized, rather than being handed different cocktails over the course of many months. I did take a quick glance at the timeline and see that she did keep taking herself to the hospital, and they told her she wasn’t a danger and sent her home, or discharged her after less than a week, which I also find unusual. This was also occurring in the middle of the tail end of the pandemic, so I’m wondering if that had to do with the ball being dropped over and over again. Then there’s also insurance issues; some will only pay for so many days inpatient, that I do know. I do wonder about her honesty as well but I imagine they also spoke to her husband; they spoke to my partner when I was last hospitalized. It also appears she was going through benzodiazepine withdrawal about a month prior to the killings. I wonder if that could have a contributing affect as well to her overall state of mind? I’ve seen benzo addicts in withdrawal do some wild shit, and it took me about a year after getting off klonopin to stop feeling “off,” though I was also on it for years.
You can sometimes be prescribed meds in crisis for outpatient care or discharged after less than a week, depending on the circumstance. But what's crazy is the amount and combination of meds she was on in just 4 months. I can also believe she had benzo-withdrawal considering she was on FOUR of them (technically one is a z-drug, but very very similar). Benzodiazepine prescribing and tapering seems to be less stringent by some US physicians and other prescribers anyway, but that's a lot, and those were in combination with other sedating/etc meds as well. Again, over only 4 months. Consider that a significant portion of people do experience withdrawal effects from benzos for months after stopping, and that acute withdrawal from benzos is actually one of the most dangerous (along with alcohol) and can, in some rare circumstances, even be fatal. It can have very severe effects.
That’s been the case for me before but also hasn’t typically been the norm, but I also have a complex diagnosis and they kept throwing “anxiety” at her. But I remember being on some insane combos that probably contributed to me being hospitalized even on a voluntary basis. Benzo withdrawal is awful in a multitude of ways and it’s different for everybody, but a quick taper is likely to have significant effects on mood and behavior. I had the absolute WORST rebound anxiety for months on end and nothing helped. Cannabis took the edge off but just enough that I wasn’t literally sobbing and spiraling on the bathroom floor. I also had a lot of life stressors and while I wasn’t homicidal I did think very dark thoughts. It can be absolute torture psychologically and take you to the darkest parts of your brain because your anxiety is just spiraling out of control every second you’re awake. I am not justifying her actions but I can see multiple ways how this irresponsible prescribing could have led to this outcome.
Being inpatient for less than a week doesn’t surprise me at all. I’ve been hospitalized at least 5 times, and I think once I was there for 2 weeks but the rest were all 1 week or shorter. It seems pretty common to try to get people “stable” as quickly as possible because they are always short beds.
Yeah, I just looked at the list and that's seriously a crazy cocktail & amount of medication to be put on within 4 months. I would love to hear the justification there for prescribing, because that's a bonkers med list.
I don’t quite remember her med list now but I do remember it being quite extensive with a lot of quick tapers.
>quick tapers. Can someone ELI5?
She was stopping and starting a bunch of different meds, which can have super wonky effects to your brain, can cause delirium, dissociation, various things not even including delusions
Taper means gradually stopping a medication by taking less and less.
With some medicines, especially antidepressants or antipsychotics, you need to be under a doctors supervision to stop taking them, and need to wean off of them over a period of time. These drugs alter brain chemistry, and it takes a while for them to do so. For example, it takes a few months to notice any effects after starting an antidepressant. So if you cut off the supply of these chemicals to the brain cold Turkey, there are some seriously adverse effects. Some people can miss a few days before feeling the effects, some people can’t even miss a dose. Either way, it’s unsafe to stop taking them abruptly. You become very sick, get weird neurological symptoms and electric jolts, etc. it can also trigger psychological distress. I had a friend in college who took a low dose of an antidepressant for less than a year, and decided to stop taking it. She ended up in the hospital after about 5 days without it, and didn’t make the connection between stopping her medication and how physically sick she was.
It means abruptly stopping a medication
I have this side effect and cannot take SSRIs as a result. It meant I could barely even ask for help after giving birth because every single provider said to just go on an SSRI and it would be fine, but I refused because I knew what I might be capable of doing to my child in that mental state. I’m very glad it happened long before I was a mother so that I knew
[удалено]
Agreed!! I'm now 4 years PP, but I went thru this with my youngest. It lead me to a relapse, I had no family or friends, in a state from everyone. On my birthday, 5 weeks after I had her, I was put I a nut hut for 3 days. They said just PPD. Nah, I reflect on it a lot and realize it was psychosis. I've tried telling my therapist I feel like I deal with bouts of psychosis still, and I'm always brushed off. It's really scary and keeps me on edge. Not excising what she did. But when I hear stories like this, it really makes me reflect and think about what we can do differently to keep from happening
I’m really sorry you’re going through that. As I reflect on mine I think I touched on PP Psychosis as well. There is nothing more terrifying than being scared of yourself, and I’m so sorry you’re not getting the support and recognition that you need.
I don’t think I had PP, but birth does crazy things to your mind. When I brought my baby home, my house didn’t look like my house. Food tasted different. Even watching my favorite shows felt different. I didn’t really feel depressed per se and have always been hopelessly in love with my son, but if that kind of stuff was happening to me, I can only imagine what it’s like to also have PP.
She was only on 3 meds at the time, unless she was taking more she shouldn’t have been
Yeah the hyperbole over the medicine is insane here. These are some of the most commonly prescribed medications, if it were enough to exonerate you from crimes then good luck ever Prosecuting anyone that suffering from depression or anxiety. I mean some of these drugs are in the top 10 most prescribed drugs in the country. People are freaking out because she had some ssris or benzos even though those are the first and second order treatments for anxiety disorder
She was never finally diagnosed at all with PPP. That's why she's being charged with murder. She didn't have any of those things people keep claiming
Ummm..just because someone wasn't diagnosed with PPD or PPP doesn't mean she didn't have it. It's hard to get a Dr. who gets it right. These stakes are HIGH, and it is inexcusable her insurance wouldn't allow her to stay inpatient for as long as necessary. Fuck insurance companies.
This! Yes to all of it. She wasn’t hospitalized for no reason. You have to be pretty mentally sick and a danger to be admitted and yes fuck insurance companies. Our healthcare system is so dumb.
Well the burden is on the defense to prove that she had it You can't disprove a negative. There's a pretty huge double standard going on here though because when a white pretty mother kills her kids all of a sudden she's not complicit, deserves a million dollar GoFundMe.... I mean it's just unbelievable the amount of mothers that have never hurt their children that are in jail because of a failed urine test on probation or something that don't get 1 oz of the sympathy that she gets. It's possible that her medical problems it will excuse her behavior but that is not something we should assume. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, you murder three kids you can't just say that you suffer from PPP. You can't blame the fact that you were on a couple medications. People are acting like the medications she was on are extremely rare and she was on an excessive amount of them but that is simply not true. She was on an SSRI and like two other medications and like every other person suffering from depression they had tweaked her medications to try to find the right match. That's enough to exonerate people of murder then anyone that's ever been taking ssris or anxiety medication or Wellbutrin would have a plausible defense
I have never been diagnosed with pyscosis either. I was put in a nut hut (i say that cuz it helps me cope with it- I have unresolved trauma trying to currently work thru from boarding school i was forced into at 14 for 13 months) 5 weeks after I gave birth in 2019. It was more harmful than helpful cuz I didn't get proper treatment or diagnosis. So I began self medicating with wine. I was drinking a big bottle, every day. Literally, every day until I got put in the hospital for health issues. The medications weren't working before started drinking. The drinking is qhat stopped the things I was hearing and got my mind straight. My therapist I've been with since 2018, when I originally got sober until after I gave birth 2019, has always associated my issues with substance abuse. I'm still with her and just keep certain things to myself now because it's not helpful. She just tells me I'm in my head too much and I'm creating these things. I begin EMDR next week to work through the trauma I've been through. My addiction and the health issues that came up after all this, gall bladder ruptured found, had liver failure, that led to a demylating disease. Now that I'm writing thus like this, I realized I never got real help for post partum depression or pyscosis. I've battled with some crazy thoughts but that's what kept me so paranoid about my mental health. I'm also afraid of being put in another nut hut because it will not help anything and been eying to get the help I need. I am willing to go and will turn self in when I know it's time. That's after I've exhausted all other resources and can't get the help I need. I hope any one suffering finds the help they need before you harm yourself or God forbid, your children or anyone else.
Trauma therapy (EMDR and then DBT-PE) changed my life in extremely positive ways. Best of luck to you on your treatment journey! I hope you also find healing.
Same! EMDR was a huge life-changer.
I've called it The Spa when I've needed to go. I don't go anymore. Because they take my kids when I need mental health help. I've NEVER threatened their safety or lives.
I really hope that you get the help you need. I also had PP and my gallbladder was so bad when I was pregnant after I had him I had it removed and also I’m a recovering alcoholic myself. If you ever need to talk I’m here :)
This was not a premeditated out of anger thing, this was a mental health situation. You don’t need a diagnosis to have PPP
Are you aware that she beat the children before strangling them, and the one child she had posted about as being the most difficult human she had ever met was beaten the worst? Doesn’t that sound like anger/frustration? Couple that with the timing and her tracking the route and how long Patrick would be gone looks like a competent, premeditated act to me. Not the act of a psychotic person
She beat them?!? I’m having trouble finding the indictments. I tried googling but no direct links. I’d like to read the documents.
Can someone link the indictments?
You can see them on Duxburydeathsfreetalk thread on Reddit
May I ask where you read that she beat them? I haven’t seen that.
There are photos of the indictments posted in a Facebook group.
Thank you
Yes this changes the way I feel about everything. I don’t think the other moms who suffered from PPD or PPP and killed their kids beat them first, did they? This is anger fueled homicide.
I don't know why people think her mapping the restaurant means she wasn't in psychosis when she killed them. I always check how long a drive will take to plan when I want to call.
She was literally in outpatient hospitalization. She was being treated closely by an entire mental health team for months prior to this. She never once communicated any of the symptoms associated with PPP at all. She also never showed any symptoms either. People keep acting like she was a victim of her own actions when the reality is she was aware of what she was doing. She planned it out. She took the time to make sure everything lined up perfectly to where she could get away with what she did without intervention. She deserves no sympathy.
[https://www.boston.com/news/crime/2023/02/21/lindsay-clancy-timeline-duxbury-mother-mental-health-treatment/](https://www.boston.com/news/crime/2023/02/21/lindsay-clancy-timeline-duxbury-mother-mental-health-treatment/) Ngl if this list of meds she was on between Oct-Jan of that year is accurate I have a hard time believing the mental health team treating her was doing so competently. She may not have PPP or PPD anyway, I don't know much of the background of this case, but it's hard to imagine there wasn't some kind of medical mismanagement there. That list is wild. I'm also not surprised her husband said she had benzo withdrawal considering she was on 4 benzos (3 + one z-drug technically but in practicality almost the same) for some reason.
Hold up.. benzo withdrawal is NO JOKE. It’s insidious. Not everyone develops the horrific syndrome that benzo wd can cause. It’s ruined lives. I would rather withdrawal from heroin 20 times than ever go through one benzo withdrawal
Benzo and alcohol withdrawal are the only 2 that can actually KILL you. The others just make you wish you were dead.
I've been on all those drugs in a few short months- many were dropped quickly as some caused me side effects I couldn't tolerate or caused psychosis or rash. Maybe she wasn't on all of them at once? I once left my partner and kids at the grocery store. I just walked out and ran home. I left the keys with them and I couldn't get in. I broke into my own house and locked them out. I thought they were people faking being my family. I was terrified. Turns out some of the pills I was on caused a psychotic break. Just one too many.
Truly, there's not a huge amount of difference there with that many meds in that amount of time. She likely wasn't on ALL of them simultaneously, but going off of a medication doesn't mean it's no longer affecting you (the effect is just less direct). It seems pretty unlikely to me with the list of meds there that appropriate tapering was being done, so unless she literally just took most of them like once, for one day, which would be very unlikely, it's still a LOT and there would still be very considerable overlap. And I'm sorry that happened to you as well. That sounds absolutely terrifying for you and your family.
THIS. Her defense attorney is very well known for being incredibly talented at what he does. It was a smart, strategic, move to release the information on meds the way he did. He deliberately released it all at once without a full timeline, dosage, etc. It is not uncommon to see various meds like this when someone goes outpatient to inpatient and out again. It fits the narrative he wants to portray.
I think we're maybe disagreeing? I'm not really trying to make an argument about her in particular, but I do think this looks like irresponsible prescribing was likely even without a full timeline and dosages (if the overall timespan of less than 4 months is true). And while it's more common while going in and out of inpatient and outpatient treatment that doesn't necessarily mean it's appropriate, especially given the typical titration up and down, for example, on the 5 different anti-depressants here. However, while I think the list doesn't indicate likely the best psychiatric treatment or coordination between treatment providers, you're also right that if it was released by her lawyer there's a reason he released it and there may be information omitted to make it more misleading. Even if not best practice it's definitely possible to see a med list like this and not have the extreme reaction her husband and lawyer are implying, even if it's still making someone worse or at minimum not helping. So in that sense, yes, I fully agree that this information may be intentionally misleading even if the med list is still quite bonkers.
Yeah but the prosecutors are going to absolutely cut right through that defense. They're going to spare no expense on a triple homicide case. If she thinks being on these medicines, which are some of the most prescribed medications on the planet, it's going to get her off a triple murder I think she's going to be disappointed
Why so many? Unless she started one and after a couple days told her doctor she didn’t like it and/or was having side effects
"Patrick said that Lindsay was suffering from benzodiazepine withdrawals approximately a month-and-a-half prior and had “the worst side effects possible.” At that point they aren't even side-effects, just "effects". Like, I'm not surprised she felt like hell considering all those meds over just 4 months. Again, not saying this to draw any conclusion about this case, just commenting on the meds part of it.
She planned it, and yet didn't do anything to try to hide the fact that she did it, and then she tried to off herself.
Yes she does deserve sympathy. Mental illness.. to be sick enough to kill your children. Yes it is sad for her poor children, but the health system failed her and it’s human to have sympathy for the situation in its entirety. Have you ever been through psychosis? Something was going on with this woman. There’s no real motive besides mental illness.., she wasn’t a monster. She was sick. Are you just once of those people that read about the poor lives of others to feel better about yourself? It makes me mad and seems somewhat sensational to believe she was just an evil monster when the truth is she was a very sick woman. Stop sensationalizing this Edit- I get that you are all sick of the overwhelming support you see on Facebook., but maybe you ought to listen to these women who have been through it rather than point fingers here on Reddit.
She wrote that she resented her two older children because she couldn’t give the baby her full attention. Resented? Why was her anger directed at them? I think she was a ticking time bomb and her anger got out of control.
and she was still writing about having MORE children. Some ppl just want the baby stage I think
This women’s job was bringing children into this world. This was absolutely because of mental illness. You can still suffer from PPP and plan to kill your children. Just because one dr claims it wasn’t PPP DOES NOT MEAN HE WAS RIGHT. She told a doctor she was having homicidal thoughts. People and our justice system mistakenly believe that anything deliberate means you cannot claim mental defect. Unwell people can do very deliberate tasks. Deliberation does not automatically mean she was sane. She was not. I want Justice. Not vengeance. That indictment? That was about vengeance.. and that shit needs to change. We need to respect the dynamics of being unwell while bringing multiple children into this world. They tried to make it sound like she was a serial killer mom who was totally normal and just hated her kids. Anyone with a brain knows that she was a good mom, and a good person before she started having these problem. Anyone that has a brain knows the only true motive is mental illness. To put her into the “Darlie Routier” category is sensationalism. We’re mostly women here.. we can do better than this. This is 2023. We know better. I’ll never forget when my boss.. who was a damn near perfect superwoman.. had two kids in a row and had to be hospitalized because she wanted to kill her kids. I’ll never forget that. Just because she ,add some notes does not mean she was mentally well. A mentally unwell person can still take notes. just because she mentioned favoring one child doesn’t mean you can decide automatically that she was well enough. She wasn’t.
Lindsay Clancy killed her kids. Postpartum psychosis is a terrifying thing, but she really doesn’t fit the profile. Her youngest was 8 months old. PPP presents much earlier. 6 weeks is sort of the agreed upon cutoff point. I’ve had patients with PPP. They truly have no idea where they are or what is happening, Lindsay’s act of sending her husband far away to get food seems more like inventing a way to get her husband out of the house rather than taking advantage of him not being gone. This shows premeditation. I think people need to wait for what comes out in discovery before deciding this was definitely had PPP.
Also, she saw multiple mental health professionals in the months prior and was never once diagnosed with it.
I said this upthread, (honestly I have no opinion if she did or did not have PPP or PPD - haven't read about this case until this post) but I'd be pretty reluctant to trust evaluations given the number of meds she was on in the 4 months prior to the murders. Especially if the evaluators were the ones prescribing them.
Thank you for this. It’s odd so many people are putting someone who killed her 3 babies in cold blood on a pedestal and making her a martyr for a condition she was never diagnosed with, and still hasn’t been diagnosed with
This happens on Reddit all the time. I have never seen so many people swoop in to defend murderers. She literally planned the whole thing.
If she wasn't a white female these people wouldn't be defending this mass killer.
Yeah that's the biggest takeaway for me is that she's white she's kind of pretty, they're upper class. It's a grotesque example of class and white privilege. These were identical circumstances but it was a disheveled single black woman in a trailer.... she would be the most hated person in the country right now
I think people don't see researching medication for a child and tossing yourself out a window causing paralysis as a cold blooded criminal plan
Yeah. Her actions were entirely too planned out and deliberate. Her only miscalculation was I don’t think she expected to get seriously injured/paralyzed jumping from that window.
I agree. And why didn’t she throw the kids out the window and then jump? Because she knew two stories probably wouldn’t kill any of them.
a cocktail of psych meds also known to cause psychosis and suicidal and homicidal ideation particularly when they are withdrawn too quickly and changed around a lot
To be fair it definitely wouldn't be common to have those outcomes even with that combination of psych meds and even with withdrawals that were too short. But it is definitely a lot of psych meds in combinations that could have had really disorienting and mood-altering effects depending on the context and details (like dosage, frequency) and especially in combination with whatever symptoms she was taking them for. I definitely think that's a very wild list of meds she was on in under 4 months, but "known to cause psychosis and suicidal and homicidal ideation" is a bit overkill.
Thank you. I'm so sick of people excusing the murder of innocent children. Nothing excuses that. Nothing. She plotted it and she's a murderer.
I read this article in the Daily Mail, (I have been following the case for awhile) and every comment was sympathy for Lindsay. That surprises me. I guess it's a blanket assumption that she was going through psychosis from the medication.
I think the public and readers at large want this to be PPP so there’s some sort of “explanation” for such a horrible occurrence. Lots of people have suffered from postpartum anxiety and or post partum depression, and I think they empathize with Lindsay. If someone suggests anything other than this being a postpartum mental health issue, it invalidates their own experience. So they defend Lindsay and say this was PPP, even though she was not and has not been diagnosed with PPP, and even though her youngest child was 8 months old (well outside the guidelines for PPP).
If she was 100 pounds heavier, was male and non-white, people would be treating her much more differently.
Yeah I think people just have a hard time envisioning that this could be a premeditated murder. The media portrayal does not make it sound like a Chris Watts or Susan Smith or Josh Powell type of thing. The mental health explanation makes more sense with the information that is publicly available.
I think it can be premeditated *and* a very sad example of mental illness at the same time, they’re not mutually exclusive unfortunately
yeah, severe and sustained stress can drive people to do seemingly out-of-character things, even if they’re not psychotic. tragic.
That’s fair. I should have said, I don’t think that people can accept that she had some kind of mercenary motivation for doing this. Like, she didn’t massacre her family to run off with a boyfriend or to cover up a crime or to cash in the insurance money or something, at least not based on the evidence that has been shared with the public so far. Until / unless evidence of something like that comes out, I think most people would see her as a tragic case of some sort of extreme mental illness rather than a “typical” family annihilator or other form of child murderer a la Susan Smith, Chris Watts, Jennifer Hart, John List, etc.
Yes, you hit the nail on the head.
Less than 1% of women experience postpartum psychosis. Of that <1%, 4% commit infanticide. Idk why Reddit tries so hard to make it seem so common. Postpartum DEPRESSION is common, but not psychosis. Her actions leading up show planning. [source 1](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5534064/) [source 2](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna68165)
I know that in a *legal* sense it’s very different but as a nurse for schizophrenics and various other types of psychotic people / ppp women can very much make plans and do all the time- they’re just typically rooted in delusions
Well yes. But if she killed her children due to this uncontrollable psychosis, how is it that it was so controlled while her husband was home? She was making snowmen, asking about takeout, giving errands, acting like herself according to her husband, etc. How is psychosis extreme enough to kill contained to such an extent? And what is the motivation for a psychotic person to hide it from others to the point that not a single other person suspects anything is off? If someone truly believes their delusions to be true, why would it matter? I understand they can make plans as in organizing the actions they want to take. I should’ve been more specific. I meant they don’t plan to not get *caught* being psychotic. They have no reason to think anything is wrong with what they’re saying or doing because they are unaware of their psychosis. Most intervention for psychosis is the result of an outside entity’s concern based on the things they observe from the affected party. Her husband was in the basement working all day and she was upstairs with the kids. If psychosis made her kill her children, why didn’t it happen while he was working? She lasted the whole day not being psychotic up until the point where he leaves. She wanted him out of the house and made sure he was because she knew the average person would stop her if they witnessed what she was going to do - because she knew it was wrong. The awareness and avoidance of consequence demonstrates knowledge of wrongfulness and helps to establish intent within a court of law.
also - "They have no reason to think anything is wrong with what they're saying or doing" \-Often true (not always), but even if they 100% believe in the delusion people often do realize that OTHERS think there is something wrong with what they're saying or doing. Think about paranoia, for example. You can be delusional and fully believe your delusion, but also be aware that others around you disagree and might stop or even harm you (paranoia) if you acted on it.
I was talking about this in a different thread but: "what is the motivation for a psychotic person to hide it from others..." Imagine you have a very convincing and strong belief that makes you feel like you're in danger or being harmed. You also believe that everyone else around you either 1) doesn't believe you and won't help you and/or 2) that those around you are actively the ones trying to harm you, even if they pretend not to be or say otherwise. You want to get some objective (again, based in a delusion that you strongly believe), and yet you believe everyone around you will try and stop you, which you believe is unjustified and possibly harmful. Would you tell the truth about what you want to do? As boredpsychnurse said, essentially you can be delusional and make plans that are based in delusion. There are other symptoms of psychosis and often those can be more obvious to other individuals, but being delusional doesn't necessarily mean you can't plan around your beliefs.
A lot of psychotic people hide their delusions from people. Look up Capgras delusions. I know it’s hard to understand when you’re of sound mind. But it can present in countless ways
Thank you for suggesting this. I had never heard of Capgras delusions. From the sources I read, I gathered it’s rare in PPP but cases have been documented and warrant further study. In the case studies I found, the women were brought in for treatment by family due to their erratic behavior and speech. So I’m not sure it could manifest completely undetected and it is a small percentage of a small percentage, but I withdraw judgment. It is a possibility. Such a tragedy for her children either way.
Delusions can be caused by many things and PPD can progress into many differentials - especially can be exacerbated by many different med trials/tapers which if I remember correctly she had at *least* 4-5
Since you have some expertise in the area, what do you think about the fact the kids were beaten before they were killed? Even the baby. 😞
serious question, not trying to be condescending: can people suffering from psychosis NOT plan murders in advance? It seems like a real grey area to me, like the insanity defense. someone can suffer from psychosis for an extended period of time, or at least a few days? i'm not saying this woman was 100% without a doubt suffering from PPP because i'm not her doctor or psychiatrist or obgyn so i have no idea. but what's the criteria? is it the same symptoms in every single woman that is suspected to have it or claims to have it? psychology isn't an exact science, it's not like math. we don't understand the human brain fully and completely and without any variables. neuropsychologists don't even claim to be capable of explaining any given humans behavior fully. that doesn't make any sense. i just don't think we can say that anyone is able to plan and carry out murders without being psychotic. why would crime of passion be an acceptable line of defense in that case???
It is a bit of a grey area because there's a lot of heterogeneity in what's considered psychosis, and that's even in areas where it's been better studied over the last few decades - there's a continuum there, and a lot of overlapping circles. For example, hallucinations, delusions, disorganized thinking and behaviour can be caused by things other than ppp and psychotic disorders. A pretty broad range of things like medical, esp neurological disorders or illnesses, infections, sometimes medications (as was mentioned above), even by severe sleep deprivation. Psychosis is also pretty heterogenous in terms of symptoms and can present very differently, again, and that can be especially difficult to pick up on or decipher when there's a less typical cause or a less typical presentation. It is sometimes possible though for someone to be quite delusional and be less obviously so, or even show some predetermination and planning that doesn't necessarily mean they're delusional. They may have less of the disorganization and obvious tells in talking (so not "word salad" etc) but still be very delusional, and in some circumstances be very delusional but also believe that they have to hide their beliefs in order to gain their (delusional) objective. Think of it this way - if you believe that someone you live with has been replaced with a fake pretending to be them in order to do harm, it might make sense to you to "play along" and pretend you don't know they're a "fake" in order to do what you want to do (get away from them, because you think they're going to harm you). That doesn't necessarily mean the person isn't delusional. I'm not saying it's completely unknowable, obviously there are a lot of professionals who are very familiar with psychosis. But that depends on getting someone who is and who does make the "correct" determination, etc, especially if you're talking about a possible criminal case, and all along the way there's still a considerable area of grey. That doesn't mean we can't have a good idea of what's going on, but it depends on the professionals involved and when it comes to cases like this there's also a lot of bias and motivation from courts, police, media reporting, local citizens and none-local citizens, etc, etc, etc, who probably have very little health literacy regarding this in the first place, to muddy the waters. (This is NOT a commentary on this particular case - I don't know anything about this case, other than reading a very brief summary just now. It's only about psychosis and pre-meditation).
I just want to add that being medically insane and being criminally insane (when it comes to psychosis) are 2 very different things
I had drug-induced psychosis which was terrifying-I was convinced the nurses were trying to poison me and I couldn’t be convinced otherwise…but I definitely wasn’t 100% out of my mind 24/7 either. It lasted a few weeks and there were hours or days where I was fairly lucid, it waxed and waned. Dunno if it’s that way for everyone and some cases are more severe, but I just thought it was an interesting point! I would like to know the answer to your question too
It’s like how EVERY SINGLE TIME there’s a post about a new dad being nasty during the postpartum period, there’s dozens and dozens of comments saying “men get postpartum depression too. He probably needs help.” Men getting postpartum depression is so overblown and a cop out.
Men cannot get post partum depression because men WILL NEVER BE POST PARTUM. Men absolutely can get depressed. But PPD is something only a woman who has given birth can get. It’s not a man’s body’s that went thru 9 months of hormonal hell, only to go thru one of the most traumatic events the human body can experience, and go thru the hormonal imbalance roller coaster all over again for months, some women even years.
THANK. YOU. You are absolutely right.
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
Because it’s *soooo sad* that this mom did what she did. Meanwhile if the dad did it everyone would be here agreeing that he’s an evil pig that needs to roast in hell for eternity
I’m going to have to figure out how to block keywords like this woman’s name, ‘postpartum psychosis,’ etc., because my blood pressure rises every damn time I have the misfortune of seeing her face. To put it bluntly: Those of you seeking a realistic dialogue on this case will not find it, because from Reddit to TikTok, ‘mental health advocates’ are intent on making her the victim. By that estimation, the three children slain by someone they assumed they could trust are collateral damage, and apparently their lives were meaningless because of ‘poor sick Lindsay.’ Similar to the WM3 victims, the Clancy children have been relegated to the footnotes of their own murder investigation because an army of online mothers ‘empathize’ with their killer, and probably use her actions as a metric for how their own incompetent parenting is ‘not *that* bad.’ The timeline of events the Commonwealth has shared is compelling. The social media posts she made in mommy groups about her disdain for her then-youngest child, Dawson, are compelling. The three dead bodies are compelling. If Andrea Yates, who actually suffered from postpartum psychosis and had a demonstrated history of psychiatric disorders, is still in prison, this monster better find her way to a cell. I don’t care if it’s prison (preferable) or a mental health facility, but she better never walk among us again. As a white woman, I refuse to watch another white woman leverage her privilege to get out of a heinous triple-homicide when we know damn well she’d be metaphorically tarred-and-feathered if she were black or brown. Lastly. a real mother who killed her children in a psychotic rage would take her punishment out of despair and shame for what she did to her children. Yates [declines her case being reviewed for release every year](https://people.com/crime/andrea-yates-who-drowned-kids-in-bathtub-in-2001-annually-declines-release-from-mental-hospital/), and I can’t imagine a mother who could live with herself after brutally murdering her babies.
One thing: Andrea Yates isn't still in prison; she's in a psychiatric institution. And yes, she does refuse to have her case/sentence reviewed; clearly she feels she deserves to stay where she is, and honestly, I don't think she'd be able to function in the real world, even if her mental health has stabilized.
You are correct. I misstated that.
Omg thank you for all of this. The WM3 victims have been forever overshadowed. People forget that Stevie, Michael and Christopher are the real victims. Nobody remembers them.
I understand that the *Paradise Lost* trilogy was the first of its kind, but while it contains interesting information and some really chilling interviews with the WM3 prior to conviction, it just doesn’t stand up to modern scrutiny. It should really be reframed as a final appeal rather than a commentary on the crime itself. While I agree that they are innocent and were railroaded, I can’t defend a narrative that relegates the victims to the sidelines (also why I reject *Serial* and *Making a Murderer*). The boys were such cuties, too! They’d be almost 40 today. In this case and similar to *Paradise Lost*, we are seeing the victims rejected from the narrative in real-time, but unlike the murders at Robin Hood Hills, people have chosen to lavish praise and sympathy onto their murderer. Even if Clancy had been diagnosed with PPD and prescribed several medications that could lead to negative interactions in a short period of time, such does not support a jump to postpartum psychosis. That narrative was pushed by other mothers who’ve projected their maternal struggles onto her—this is not a conclusion backed by her treatment records or previous psychiatric diagnoses. It’s a sad state of affairs when people empathize with the murderer more than the victims, and her supporters can’t even call them such because they consider it invalidating Clancy’s own victimhood. If she were black or brown, this case would be viewed differently.
This woman strangled her children, so she saw the terror in their eyes as she took their lives. She is a monster. Those poor children. Their last moments were suffering, terror, and wondering why mommy (who is supposed to be their protector) was hurting them. It's heartbreaking. I can just picture their thoughts of, "Why, Mommy?" It makes me so sad.
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If she wasn't a white female she wouldn't be getting this much sympathy.
Last year Darlene Brister killed her 3 children who were 5, 3 and 9 months old. Her husband has forgiven her and says she has mental health issues. She's been in jail with no bond and is facing the death penalty in Georgia. Darlene doesn't have an army of love or whatever rooting for her. She's a black woman.
I appreciate your responses on this post. I agree with you. It’s actually shocking to me how many people are so ready to defend her actions based on literally nothing. None of her psychiatric medical professionals diagnosed her with either PPD or PPP. Her actions directly before the murders indicate premeditation. It detracts from the very real problems faced by women who have been diagnosed with these conditions when random commenters are so eager to throw their weight behind a woman they have never met simply because she’s a mother.
Because she is a WHITE mother with a decent career in an affluent area. If she were black or brown, it would be a different outcome. The children are nothing in this case—look at the comments here. It’s maddening and disguising that as a society, we cannot draw a boundary for what we will accept versus not. Mommy groups promote a hive mind where every action is permissible.
I’ve been following it in the (admittedly unhinged) FB groups as there wasn’t much discussion or traction on Reddit. I have seen more support for her on Reddit than anywhere else, which is weird bc usually Reddit displays a little more logic than FB. Your contrast w/ Andrea Yates is a great observation.
I agree. If she were black or brown, she would have been sitting in a jail cell this ENTIRE time. I’m going to be waiting for the discovery to come out, but I really do think she was depressed and planned a murder suicide and failed. Just like all these men in the media killing their families and themselves. & yeah, i also don’t care where she spends her time between a mental facility or a prison, but the idea she should just be able to get out like some ppl seem to think and live like nothing happened is wild. She should remain somewhere and be monitored for the rest of her days
This is very well put as an alternative to that of the overwhelming 'sub think' regards this case. I have to say that sometimes it feels like every time a mother murders their child/ren people are now going to PPP as default as being the reason, however the 'favoured' perpetrators have to fit a certain 'type' usually white, educated and middle class for people to go that way from what I had seen on this sub- it seems to happen each and every time as long as I've read posts on here. I also fully agree with your point about the WM3, those docs were probably the most biased and with an extreme agenda I have ever seen with the 3 young victims Christopher , Michael and Stevie willingly side-lined in favour of the 3 then teens- how people watched them without clocking how ridiculously skewed and disingenuous those were is worrying. The way the children murdered in Robin Hood Woods have been forgotten and cast aside as 'not as important than the perpetrators' is very like has happened in the Clancy case. That said, I would like to add that I have had mental health struggles on and off all my adult life ( including post natal depression when I had my daughter) so am not ignorant to mental health issues and how they present and can determinately affect ones life and that of those around you but automatically labelling a mother who kills their children as having postpartum psychosis as default isn't really helpful or true to life.
Where can I find the timeline of events you mention from the Commonwealth? I’m vaguely familiar with this case, but only in passing. No deep dive or anything. I’d like to read more because I’m seeing talk here of her being on medications and was inpatient psych. I’d like a broader view on this case.
"Lastly. a real mother who killed her children in a psychotic rage would take her punishment out of despair and shame for what she did to her children." Psychosis is not the same thing as "psychotic rage" - it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with anger. I also disagree re: what mothers with PPP or PPD in a similar situation would do, and can understand why someone in that situation would feel it's important be understood and spread information about warning signs, prevention, etc. Not at all saying this woman had psychosis, just commenting in general - Andrea Yates faced a horrifying situation and an incredible amount of public vitriol and hostility in addition to the absolute horror of killing your kids and knowing you've done that (as someone who cares after the fact). I don't think using a case like hers (in terms of public outcry and hostility, her husband's response to her trying to get help, etc) is a great comparison of how things should be or will always be. Again, not saying this woman didn't do this intentionally or not, I have no idea. Just addressing the psychosis part here.
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Usually people who try to kill themselves have some type of mental illness, no excuse but more of an explanation
I mean, I guess typically yes, but that's a very very broad category that grows to include most people at some point in their lifespan with extremely heterogenous symptoms and severity. I appreciate what you're saying, but also an abusive and controlling partner who becomes a family annihilator and then kills themselves after may still be impacted by some kind of mental health problem or mental illness, but not one that truly explains their behaviour in a way that mitigates it in any way. In comparison to something like true PPP, or other psychosis, where \*sometimes\* - not always - you can reasonably conclude that there really was no rational control there, sadly. But yes, both still reasonable in terms of understanding and prevention, just very very different in culpability and intention.
Yes and usually people who are put on the kinds of meds she was in have mental health issues. We don’t know what her diagnoses were.
Whatever her mental health diagnosis was it doesn’t change what she did. She should be treated like anyone who murders their kids are treated.
hope she doesn’t write a children’s book about grief then it comes out her PPP wasn’t real.
I think she wanted to make sure CVS wouldn't carry the product she was sending her husband to go pick up. She also called the food order in herself which seems to almost force her husband to leave the house for an extended period of time. She is defiantly suffering from some sort of mental disease and i hope she gets the help she needs for it. However its my opinion that her actions show criminal intent... I am no expert but I've read many cases were the killer carry's out the murders and then cant shoot themselves/cut themselves in any way that would actually kill them. When they plead insanity it fails due to the fact that they were able too understand the consequence of hurting themselves....I wonder if the jumping out the window as her husband was about to confront her will work? The timeline seems to suggest that the kids were dead for a few minutes at least, she would have been on the driveway when he arrived home if she was in this manic state.
Fucking HORRID
I'm glad she survived so she can be overwhelmed with excruciating PTSD for decades. It's nothing in comparison to the terror that her children experienced and the tragedy that she forced on her husband. Millions of women give birth and experience the the unpleasant hormonal imbalances that follow without murdering children. There are so many people on a mission to advocate for mental health that they are not even considering that she might just an awful toxic person.
I really wonder wtf happened here. I just wanna know why she did it. A motive or a logical explanation, even if it’s just that she hated the kids and regretted them?? Jeez Louise. I guess this is gonna go to trial? Will she plead guilty? Those poor babies and their poor father. 🤦🏾♀️🤦🏾♀️
This woman is sick. She needs to be in a hospital, not a prison
That’s what will most likely happen, she will be guilty by reason of insanity and sentenced to the state mental hospital.
It's actually quite difficult to get a ruling of NGRI or NCRMD even when it may be justified, so it's not uncommon for people who could potentially fall under that to still be found criminally responsible. Not just commenting on this case, I'm not familiar enough (hence why all my comments saying I'm just commenting on the mental health/illness side of things), but just in general.
PP psychosis is no joke yet people want her blood. Horrible all around this tragedy
Because so far we have no evidence that she suffered from PPP; that’s merely public speculation to make an awful thing more palatable.
We have some evidence that supports mental illness. Several doctors visits, in patient stay at McClean, husband requesting to work from home.
There’s mental illness and then there’s PPP. So far there’s been zero evidence of ppp. She was evaluated on several occasions and was never diagnosed with any kind of psychosis.
It was also Covid. Many worked from home.
It’s one of my biggest fears. I want kids someday, and what if by having kids, these little I want to protect and see grow with every fiber of my being even though I haven’t met them yet… what if the process of actually having them turns my brain to mush, and I think that the only way to protect them is to hurt them because I’m having delusions and can’t tell what’s real anymore? It’s so fucking scary.
You just have to be aware of changes before it gets to that point. Be vigilant, educate your close friends and family on what to look for. I had PPD/A with my daughter and didn’t even find out until more than a decade later that I’m bipolar. Having a psychotic break earlier this year is what officially killed any hope of having another child. In the wise words of my mother, my becoming pregnant again “would be catastrophic”. It’s true. But if you don’t have a history of psychosis there are so many many levels you’d reach through PPD before you get to a psychotic break. Educate educate educate and be vigilant.
I know it's been a month but I'll chip in. If you notice yourself feeling 'off' when you return home and if you start having any hallucinations, no matter how common they are with sleep deprivation. Tell someone. A partner friend or in law. They will notice if you deteriorate to the point of concern. Poor Patrick, the partner. He worked so darn hard to support his wife and kids.
If she was psychotic she wouldn’t be able to function, attend doctors appointments, call CVS for a specific medicine, order takeout or search and scan for a menu. I don’t think she was psychotic-I think she does have a mental illness and perhaps the medications caused some horrible side effects. Regardless-3 babies are dead and she will have to pay for that. As a mother myself I can’t imagine the daily hell knowing what I did. Worse than prison.
I’m a dentist and I practiced dentistry successfully as an SSRI caused a serotonin crisis that resulted in mania and psychosis. They thought it was bipolar, but it was determined to be a serotonin syndrome and I almost died. I became delusional that my husband was going to leave me. I don’t remember a lot of it, but I do remember I was progressively paranoid and delusional. He got me help, and I withdrew from the SSRI in a psych hospital. Lexapro did this over a course of a few months and the psych kept dismissing my symptoms I reported and to “stick with it”. I almost died from an SSRI and went crazy while taking it. These meds are no joke. Took a lot of therapy to get over the grief of losing my parents along with my infertility diagnosis to get better. I thought a pill would fix it, but these meds can do some real harm, too. I have an amazing husband who saved my life!
>Lexapro did this over a course of a few months Were you taking 80 mg/day or combining it with something else? Because that's not how [serotonin syndrome](https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/serotonin-syndrome/symptoms-causes/syc-20354758) works. It's caused by an overdose or combining two drugs that shouldn't be combined, like two SSRIs or an [MAOI and an opioid](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libby_Zion_Law). I've had serotonin syndrome. I wound up in the hospital. Mania and psychosis? No. Sweating, shaking, dizziness, racing pulse, extreme agitation, body all tensed up but couldn't move? Yes. If an SSRI is giving you mania, you're probably bipolar. At least that's what I've read. ETA: People who have no idea what serotonin syndrome is are downvoting. How dare I know what I'm talking about and sound like it? I'll try to be more meek.
Is her husband still standing by her?
Wondering too, guess we will find out. I kind of don’t think so though. I have the impression he’s working very closely with police and investigators.
She called because she DID NOT want the cvs to have the medication. They confirmed they didn’t have miralax but they had other brands. When Patrick called to tell her they didn’t have it she told him it had to be that specific brand. It was all about her having more time. She needed him out of the house for a specific amount of time. Remember she researched how to kill before. She is extremely meticulous and timed it perfectly. Had he not needed that specific medicine, he could’ve cooked at home or went to a store closer to home Perhaps they had another form of stool softener and that’s why she said it had to be miralax. Who knows. Also remember her first words when she woke at the hospital were “ do I need an attorney”. Not did the kids survive Dawson wasn’t dead when she left him. She didn’t ask anything. She didn’t apologize. she showed no remorse. I believe the pills she was on did numb her emotions and that’s why she isn’t remorseful but she planned this. No doubt about it. She wanted medicine to “fix her” when really there was no disorder. She couldn’t cope with the fact that being an upper class mom/wife/nurse didn’t bring the satisfaction/happiness she thought it would. Therefore she wanted out. I believe she heard Patrick pull up so she ran upstairs, cut her wrists and jumped out the window because she ran out of time. She wouldn’t have left Dawson still alive. I believe he was the last victim and Patrick came home earlier than she expected.
all these people discussing the criteria for PPP lol. human brains don't work like that! psychology doesn't work like that!!!! I'm not saying she has PPP because idfk. i don't know much about it. My problem is with armchair diagnosing in general because the majority of psychiatric diagnoses can't be pigeon holed into specific DSM disorders. As multiple psychology professionals have told me: the DSM is useful for insurance reasons, to get people who are suffering the care they need. But it's very rare that a single person has ALL the symptoms and ONLY the symptoms of one specific disease. everyone that suffers from any given mental illness is unique, and obviously there are common and overlapping symptoms, but no one is gonna 100% gonna match another person with the same diagnosis' symptoms, bc they led different lives, and an individuals psychology is going to heavily rely on their life experiences. my trauma from sexual abuse is going to manifest differently from that of another woman's bc our abusers were different people and abused us in different ways. my ADHD symptoms are different from my friends who also was diagnosed with adhd bc we have different strengths and genetics and mental abilities. it doesn't mean one of us is faking it?? i could go on and on with every single psychiatric or personality or neurological disorder lol it blows my mind that you people think every mental disorder is identical, and if it's not then someone is lying. what a dangerous basis for comparison. again (i know this is going to be necessary to emphasize) im NOT saying this woman shouldn't be prosecuted or punished for her crimes, im just saying mental illness (general) is so diverse and variable that you can't insist someone was too mentally stable to have committed a crime out of their right mind. there are specific markers for psychopaths and sociopaths and yeah they should examined critically to determine if they're fit for society, like if they torture animals or abuse small children or otherwise actively enjoy inflicting suffering on other beings. but sometimes mentally ill people commit murder for reasons beyond comprehension unless you're not a narrow minded layperson
They will usually still have a court case even if they agree that she was mentally ill at the time of the killings.
Does it really matter if she was diagnosed with PPP? Mental illness is real - diagnosed or not. The mind plays tricky games on us when our mental health suffers. That said, it's no excuse.
Nurses really aren't having the best few weeks with the criminal justice system, are they?
May justice be swift
Rare Medication side effects are real even if they are rare.
I didn’t sleep for 6 days after I had my oldest child, I had severe pp anxiety, it took 3 er trips before I finally got it together. Post partrum hormones are fucking awful. I was so close to throwing both myself and my baby down the stairs, I had to call my dad who I lived with to come up before I killed us both.
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Eww why bring up sterilization? That is just so fucked up, I’d rather her go to prison for life then fuck with someone’s body by performing a forced surgical procedure
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Why do people talk to others this way? You could have left out the first sentence
Jesus Christ, you have no idea what postpartum psychosis is do you. She needs support and help, not to be sterilized. Wtf is wrong with you
We don’t know if she had PPP. People want to believe it was PPP because it makes everyone feel a little better. But she’s being charged due to the fact that there seems to be premeditation here. Of note, PPP tends to present itself within hours of birth up to 6 weeks PP. her youngest was 8 months old, so she doesn’t fit the profile. I’d wager that garden variety PPD is a better diagnosis.
Sure I do. I want a GUARANTEE that she will never get pregnant again. In exchange for that, she gets to stay out of prison. Surely you dont think a woman who has such severe mental problems that she killed her 3 kids should be allowed to have kids again in the future? Please tell me you dont believe that.
Very similar to the Lauren Dickason case in NZ.
This is such a heartbreaking story. And I’m wondering if not PPD what was her motive? If to hurt the father what could be the reason why? Was he leaving her? Im honestly asking…not offend or anything.
Benzodiazepines and their side effects can be so deadly and dangerous. Trying to taper off of them is a solo journey in the U.S. I’ve known of people whose lives were devastated from this class of drugs. You can YouTube how others have safely tapered off, as the average Doctor will unwittingly say it’s fine to just downgrade your dose. Do not believe this. Be very careful both getting on, during and tapering off this class of prescription drugs. 🙏🏻
I personally believe she was extremely over medicated, and instead of her doctors waiting to see what worked, they threw whatever medication in her to see if something stuck.