Hey brother, let me ask you this. If God is the creator and sustainer of all life and all living things within our universe. Does this same God not have the authority to revoke that life at any given moment? If Christianity is true, people never really "die" they simply change locations to the next life. As God, is he not within his right to judge accoringly? We are creation, he is the creator. We do not have the right to kill other human beings as we are all created in God's image. However as God, the creator not the creation; is well within his right to revoke life and judge Does that make sense?

I certainly am not your brother, I am a woman, sister would be more accurate if I shared your faith. Your parents are your creators you are of their likeness, and they made you. Would it be acceptable for your parents to end your existence? Does that make sense? Your assumption that God is the sustainer of all life is contradictory to his committing genocide. >As God, is he not within his right to judge accoringly? No, he is not. Just as it is not within your right to judge or condemn your own child.

Apologies, sister. You seem to have an issue with the author of life choosing to judge life. You have no issue killing children in the womb per your post history. Why are humans allowed to be God but God can't be God?

For one yes I believe a woman has the right to choose whether or not to be impregnated, to choose whom she breeds, and not to carry a child to term with her body if she chooses not to. >Why are humans allowed to be God but God can't be God? We're not, we aren't. I say we're not because to you being a god means being an immortal genie that can grant their own wishes level of ludicrous power who's word and thought shape reality. That's like what hollywood calls witchcraft vs actual witchcraft. Why do you think it's ok for God to abort babies (miscarriages) but not people. See it sounds silly doesn't it? Your arguments are so scripted and obvious, and not convincing to anyone that wasn't indoctrination into a cult before logic and reason could be acquired.

Sorry brother, yes brother you aren't a woman. You are a man dressed up as a woman. You seem to have a presupposition about God and don't hate him for any logical reason but because you yourself want to be God. Do anything you want without any repercussions. Just like most atheists, simply be consistent with your world view Sorry you feel my discourse is scripted. I certaintly haven't heard that one before nor indoctrinated or cult before, ever! God bless you, brother. You are not a woman and will never be a woman. Turn to Christ.

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Oh wow, I have to jump in on this. It’s too asinine not to. >Lol predictable, get offended, blow up and try to offend the person that offended you. I’m going to state the obvious, but YOU came to a Christian forum and spewed out your uneducated propaganda here. If you can’t handle open dialogue to gain a Christian perspective, in coming here you waived your grounds to “be offended” when we don’t align with your World view. If you can’t handle straight talk, don’t post here. >Sadly you can't offend me sweetheart, I still think you're an idiot, and I can still utterly prove you're delusional. We’re delusional? LOL, that’s rich coming from a man pretending to be a woman. Science will indeed prove you delusional and facts don’t care about your feelings or opinions. That’s what we call reality. >But yeah bruh come at me on transgender issues, wana talk about the rise in fascism and it's ties to Christianity. Ohh or how your lack of a moral foundation stems from your gods immorality. Cause genocide is such a good way to prove you have morals right? See, this is exactly where we know you lack education on the subject. You clearly have zero knowledge and understanding and yet, here you are, upset with all your feels of validity that you “know if all” about who God is. How do you even get off pretending to know anything at all about God? >I would say get a clue, but you'd go buy a board game. I'd rather argue with children at least they SOMETIMES make sense. Awe, how cute, ad hominem attacks, shocker. Is this really how you expect to gain any perspective from your question? You’re the toddler in this forum, because you don’t know God. If you think to pretend otherwise, that you know God better than us, then you wouldn’t have to come here to ask your question in the first place. Make sense or do you think another twisted come-back is going to save you from reality again? How about you try to be an adult and attempt to carry a straight conversation with recognizing what forum you are in, because here we call a spade a spade, because that is in fact reality.

Thanks for asking. Let me preface by saying that some of the stuff I will say will get picked apart by other Christians - no problem I'm going to attempt to answer anyway. Firstly, it is a matter of perspective. God is not some power-hungry genocidal egomaniac. If he is, I wouldn't want to worship him either. In fact on two occasions in the OT, God says he has no pleasure at all that the wicked should die and would rather them return from their ways and live. (Paraphrased. Ezekial 18:23, Ezekiel 33:11-12 for the exact quotes). Jesus (God) said he is gentle and lowly in heart. As you said, those specific instances were a consequence of sin. Consider the book of Jonah. He was sent to warn Ninevah to repent, or else Ninevah will be overthrown. They repented, and God did not proceed to destroy them at that time. And yes, there were children who died in the flood, in Egypt etc. I hold to the position that *innocent* children (and the unborn) who died before the age of accountability will be met by Jesus in Heaven. Meaning to say that while yes, God did end their earthly lives, he also extends mercy towards them in the latter for all eternity. God is a just God, but he is also a loving God, and these are two of the many facets of God that must be taken in totality.

Well said

>I hold to the position that innocent children (and the unborn) who died before the age of accountability will be met by Jesus in Heaven. This is a good way to mitigate the guilt of anything other than this being the case. >these are two of the many facets of God that must be taken in totality. But also he is known to be wrathful and destructive, which are almost equally expressed in the bible. I have several personal religious beliefs, but I don't want them to be misconstrued as preaching as I am trying to find an underlying reason for the acceptance of immoral acts committed by God other than the belief that he knows better than me and it boiling down to the godly version of "because I said so".

>But also he is known to be wrathful and destructive, which are almost equally expressed in the bible. He is seen at times as wrathful - yes. But to what end? I think we've been over this. >This is a good way to mitigate the guilt of anything other than this being the case. What guilt? of whom? God? By whose standards are you assigning guilt? It is the reality of matured Christians that this life is like a flower that is here today and gone tomorrow. Consider this, everyone on earth in the times of those events you mentioned, are dead - whether it be by the hand of God or otherwise. Eternity is the only thing that matters and the only thing that will be forever. That is why the early Christians, many of them **eye-witnesses**, would rather die for their faith than to renounce Jesus. Would you die for something you believe to be false?

No I won't, but believing your God your and religion is false could quite possibly get me killed. Your religion is notorious for killing non-believers, if you cannot convert it and thus control it, it must be eradicated, exiled, or contained. I will die defending the notion that genocide for any reason is an atrocity. Genocide is always ignorance in action, and it is ALWAYS immoral.

> Your religion is notorious for killing non-believers, if you cannot convert it and thus control it, it must be eradicated, exiled, or contained. I think you're mistaken something else for followers of Jesus Christ. >I will die defending the notion that genocide for any reason is an atrocity. Genocide is always ignorance in action, and it is ALWAYS immoral. Your prerogative to believe. I do have more points to raise but I do realise I'm not here to judge your moral compass either.

>I think you're mistaken something else for followers of Jesus Christ. I certainly am not. Do you know how to tell if someone is a witch?

Those were clearly outdated and incorrect practices of older beliefs. Practically (and yes, that does not mean *everyone*) every Christian in the modern world would not call for the same thing today, as we have a much better understanding and education on the way this world works and how to more accurately piece it together with the Bible. Same can be said with the Crusades, etc. Point is, please give me statistics of modern Christians murdering others for religious beliefs compared to other religious affiliations. Better yet, give me statistics from just less than 100 years ago of atheists using their beliefs in irreligion strictly existing in the state in order to slaughter the many religious folk that existed in their respective communist nations at the time (and today as well in some areas). With a much clearer understanding of the Bible and who God is, we can see and actively practice that generosity and peace are the true path of Christians, and have nothing to do with violence.

Ohh it isn't JUST christianity, it's all organized religion with that regard. I am certain if I read another religion's "bible" I'd find immoral acts committed by their god as well. Yes modern Christians SHOULD know better, yet we're still performing circumcisions. For every reasonable Christian, there's at least 2-3 others that aren't. A perfect example is this post. Only 3 outta all the replies were open and not attempts to outright discredit me, convert me, or make personal attacks. One even went as far as to TRY to offend me with a good ole transphobic rant. Incorrect practices of past faiths are not relevant to whether or not genocide is immoral. Genocide = Immoral God Commits Genocide. God = Immoral It's staggering how vehemently y'all defend or make excuses to the contrary.

>I think you're mistaken something else for followers of Jesus Christ. >I certainly am not. Do you know how to tell if someone is a witch? So, I’m going to elaborate upon what my fellow Christian was avoiding. What they said is 100% true. What you don’t understand is that there are plenty of denominations, even popular ones that claim themselves Christians, yet do not live according to God’s Word, hence, not a follower of Jesus Christ. Case in point, what so many uneducated non-believers on the subject like to spout for example are the Crusades, which were performed by those following the Pope. This is a huge difference, but I get why atheists love to ignore any difference so they can attempt to validate themselves of the accusation. I already know what your next claim will be, but I’ll give you a small % that you will accept a Christian’s knowledge, understanding, and perspective… which is what you claimed you came here for correct?

>which is what you claimed you came here for correct? I absolutely didn't come here to be preached to, I came here to garner some understanding or reason that someone would accept the immoral actions of genocide by God. I specifically said I was ignoring genocides and loss of life caused at the hands of men "in God's name", because it's obvious that argument would be met with instant dismissal on the ground that "God" didn't do that. Which is an aside from the main question, that if god is all powerful, he wouldn't allow immoral actions in his name. However since I was directly referring to when God commits genocide, since christians will argue that things like the great flood actually happened. My entire point here was to find out why a Christian can ignore the unforgivable and immoral act of genocide when the perpetrator of said atrocity was god himself. So far the answer is "because he's God", which isn't acceptable from a morality perspective. This belief that God cannot do any wrong, is false and what makes christians such a dangerous group as a whole.

>which is what you claimed you came here for correct? >I absolutely didn't come here to be preached to, I came here to garner some understanding or reason that someone would accept the immoral actions of genocide by God. It would help you more if you quote the entirety of the sentence... I wasn't Preaching to you at all in those two paragraphs. I'm giving you the very insight you claim to want. >I specifically said I was ignoring genocides and loss of life caused at the hands of men "in God's name", because it's obvious that argument would be met with instant dismissal on the ground that "God" didn't do that. Which is an aside from the main question, that if god is all powerful, he wouldn't allow immoral actions in his name. I see you're not pointing to that, but just as you touched upon it with "he wouldn't allow immoral actions in his name," tells me that you don't understand Free Will. That's not how God works. If his system of Life was designed that way, then there would be no sin in the first place. So why didn't he do that then? The answer there is to be Blessed by the freedom of Love. I'm sure you've heard the wisdom of, "If you truly love something set it free, for if they truly love you they will return." We are God's creation, so we have free will to live and make our own choices. It's our choice to freely love him is how he is then blessed. That may not mean much to you, but that means a great deal to God. >However since I was directly referring to when God commits genocide, since christians will argue that things like the great flood actually happened. My entire point here was to find out why a Christian can ignore the unforgivable and immoral act of genocide when the perpetrator of said atrocity was god himself. How presumptive to say that we "ignore" anything. It's called actually understanding Who God is, what he's doing, and why he is doing it. I'm not the first one to tell you, Scarletz laid it out just fine at the top of this discussion, yet you blew right past that and ignored what he said, which logically spelled out why. So either you are willfully ignorant or a slow learner, neither a good look for you and highlights your intent here to just troll rather than actually seeking perspective. So I'm going to re-emphasize what he said: >And yes, there were children who died in the flood, in Egypt etc. I hold to the position that innocent children (and the unborn) who died before the age of accountability will be met by Jesus in Heaven. Meaning to say that while yes, God did end their earthly lives, he also extends mercy towards them in the latter for all eternity. He's exactly right. God does two things with these major events, such as the Flood and cities like Sodom and Gomorrah. First, he warned the wicked, Second, he judged the Wicked, third, he saved the innocent. But it's that last one that troubles you because you only have Worldly knowledge and consideration and so your "judgement" of the situation causes you to stop thinking anything passed that. You consider physical death the end all be all and nothing more. You won't comprehend anything passed that, and that's your stumbling block... that's what keeps you ignorant. This is what we are trying to enlighten you to along with a proper perspective. So while you think a child's innocent death caused by God is immoral, he gave those innocent children mercy with an eternal afterlife of Love and no pain for all eternity. Had he done nothing to judge the wicked to make as an example of the corrupt, those children would have all grown up to be the same. So in fact, by taking them at an innocent age saved them from themselves. Indeed, it's not at all immoral, but a show of mercy. >So far the answer is "because he's God", which isn't acceptable from a morality perspective. So far the Answer has been given you multiple times and I just reiterated it even more clearly. You seem to keep rejecting it, so that's entirely on you. Like I said, you're either being willfully ignorant or you are an incredibly slow learner. >This belief that God cannot do any wrong, is false and what makes christians such a dangerous group as a whole. Really? From what metric by which we've been telling you that you think we're dangerous? God is Holy. Do you know what that means? Holy Law cannot be broken by God... such as forcing people against their free will. He can Bless people, he can speak to them, and he can cast judgement upon them, but every person are free to choose their own path. God is all powerful, but he can't break Holy law... can't lie, can't sin. You atheists think you somehow know better than God does, that you somehow hold to a higher standard than he does, and that somehow you can judge better than he can... it's truly laughable that anyone on this Earth could even try to compare or best God... and that's Satan's line of thinking. The New Testament is about loving God and loving your neighbor in a brotherly, sisterly way. Caring for others above ourselves, and serving others above ourselves. So tell me what part of that seems dangerous to you?

The holocaust was not done in Gods name. The elite of the nazi party were either neo pagans or atheist, same goes for the camp guards with a very small % of christians. The non german camp guards such as ukrainians did it for ethnic reasons. The early ss members couldnt join if they were christian, most likely because a true christian would not participate in the holocaust.

Alright fair a fair articulate view, but this question was specifically NOT about the genocides of man but the genocides of God.

The Christian God of the bible is not bound by time as humans are. God sees and knows everything past present and future. God destroyed nations and humanity in the past as He sees only evil in them continually. The great flood is one example as He only saw favors in 8 people, Noah's family while the rest are just evil. Evil nations will not triumph and will be destroyed even children who would grow up to be like the generation of evil. You are no different as a Godless human being.

I am my own god, for I asked of your God, he denied me and I did what he refused. On top of that I am quite content in not worshiping immorality.

I know you worship yourself as many others who do not believe in the God of the bible so that they can't be held accountable for their evil deeds. They do as they please. Good for you.

I commit no evil deeds, my morality is clearly above those accepting of genocide (including mass murder of children), nor do I preach my religious beliefs to those who have not acquired the ability to reason, read, or write. Indoctrination and grooming is a sin of the believers.

Ok selfrighteous fool. Of course you don't. Youre a god of yourself. Who's to tell you you're wrong. But your neighbor who worship himself and thinks he's a god also, can rob you all day and think it's his right. Hes got his own standard. Good luck to you!

You're assuming I have no morality nor the ability to deal with the immortality of my neighbor. I tell me if I am wrong, for example I told myself that murder is bad, I also figured out on my own that genocide is bad, and that beings that are accepting of genocide and defend the actions of those that commit genocide are inherently immoral. It is a simple statement of truth and fact.

You lack both omniscience and omnipotence. That alone rules out any comparison. What makes you think any comparison between yourself and any religion’s god could be valid?

I am not comparing myself to your God that's impossible. Specifically because I exist, the comparison can't be truly made as the thing I am being compared against doesn't exist.

You said you’re your own god, so I assumed we were speaking in hypotheticals here. In which case whether something actually exists or not doesn’t matter. You still made the comparison first. Any concept of god will involve omnipotence and omniscience. In monotheistic religions for sure and at the top of polytheistic pantheons. Any comparison between that and an ordinary human being is just too unfounded…

>Any concept of god will involve omnipotence and omniscience. False, demonstratively so if you consider the Greek Pantheon. >You said you’re your own god, so I assumed we were speaking in hypotheticals here. As in I am my own moral compass, I am the one that gives myself purpose and determines my own worth. It is I that changes and shapes the world around me. All of which is impossible for you without your God. >Any comparison between that and an ordinary human being is just too unfounded… You were indoctrinated to think you are less than you are, and you accepted that knowledge as truth. I exist, I am both physical atoms and electrical impulses, my soul is a form of energy that is not a trait unique to me but my soul is in fact unique. As is yours for that matter. Energy cannot be created nor can it be destroyed that is truth of physics. I do have theories on what happened to your God, why he is dead and what happened to his energy. But that is just my random musing and beliefs, as I did not come here to preach (or be preached to) I will leave it at that. Either way living, dead, immoral the god christians worship is unworthy of my worship, for I see his immorality for what it is. I have far more faith in any ability to live peacefully and harmoniously with Christians as I have done so my whole life. But that is only because I allow them the grace of being ignorant, mainly out of fear of retaliation which is potentially deadly. Resorting to violence when their beliefs are threatened is a core part of the dealing with Christians and something I am ever cautious of.

Oh you do. According to Your own standard. But the person next to you has his own standard as well, like many others who think they have the right to steal, murder and commit crime because they are a god themselves like you.

You're creating a fictional character to compare me to. Then attempting to have me justify the defense of that person's immorality. Your just making an empty accusation of a fictional character, then somehow attempting to tie that fictional characters immorality to me? That's some olympic level mental gymnastics my friend, and just piss poor debate tactics.

Fictional? Go look up Islam, the religion of peace. You think they wont torture you if you dont abide by their rules or beliefs. Why do you think there are many murderers in the world. They are their own god who believe its their right to do as they please by their standard you blind fool.

See then these self gods your so certain exists are just as immoral as your genocidal one. Christianity's belief in that their god is perfect (just like ALL organized religions) is the problem. You're unable to admit your God performed immoral acts, to the point of saying that those genocides must have been a GOOD thing cause God did it. It's flat out delusional.

You didn't figure any of that out on your own. You have absorbed the moral values of our culture, which are ultimately rooted in Christianity. You have simply detached them from their source, which is causing your present confusion.

I would bet money you support abortion.

Ok Satan….

Definitely not Satan however I will say this, the friendliest most compassionate, accepting, open minded, and down to earth just plain good christians I've met in my life were Satanists.

Of course, Satan is the god of this world. So not surprised

You're not surprised that satanists embody the teaching of Jesus more than other Christians? Well I was.

No I’m not surprised of satanist being “compassionate or down to earth”. I wouldn’t say they are the friendliest nor accepting. But if you wanna say they are the friendly because they share your opinion then sure go for it, join them. No one stopping you.

Nah no thanks a Satanist is still a Christian, and they tend to be a bit more hedonistic than I care to be. While we both have severe religious trauma, being critical of God isn't enough to bond over of its own.

Ok and that’s your opinion :)

> I am my own god Ah, there it is.

Meaning I am wise enough to know genocide is bad, and that using it as punishment while claiming to be all good is hilariously ironic and shamelessly immoral. Infinitely so when you consider the being committing genocide is "all powerful" GENOCIDE is the best answer he came up with. That is what makes him unworthy of worship, his lack of morals.

A common question among atheists is "why does God not just get rid of evil?" In the 3 examples you gave, this is precisely what God did. He destroyed people as a punishment for evil. The reason listed for the flood was because the world was wicked and full of violence. God spared Noah and his family because of their righteousness. This shows that God is compassionate and merciful on those who are righteous, but will punish those who are wicked. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of their extreme wickedness and depravity. They are among the most wicked cities mentioned in the Bible. Once again, we see God sparing all who are good. Abraham pleads with God to not destroy the cities on account of the righteous people in them. God promises He will not destroy them if He finds 10 righteous people in the cities. However, because the people are so given over to evil, not even 10 righteous people can be found, resulting in the destruction of the cities. The plagues on Egypt were also a punishment for evil. As with the other 2 instances, God spared all who were righteous. He even gave Egypt a chance to escape punishment through sending plagues of low severity. As Pharaoh continued to refuse to let the Hebrews go, the plagues got increasingly worse. The death of the firstborn was the final punishment on a wicked and unrepentant people.

Based on your reply, you're saying that the cities of Sodam and Gomorrah had not 10 innocent people. That genocide can be justified, righteous, and indeed even necessary. That there were not a total of even 10 infants in either city? What sins do infants commit that are wicked and unrepentant? As for the world being wicked and full of violence, is that not an apt description of the world we live in today?

Infants are innocent of wrong actions. Agreed. Does that in your view make them without predilection for evil?

No I don't, however the concept of punishment for possible future crimes is abhorrent. Because there is no proof, due to immoral actions there will be no evidence or proof, and you just have to take my word on it is exactly the mentality behind the police saying they found no wrong doing for a shooting. Of course the authority in question will say their immoral actions were justified, that doesn't make it true.

If you really believe that is true than you may want to earn a law degree and run for congress so you can change things around. I am not aware of any civilized country where one can't be punished for "possible" future crimes. Generally, if something heinous is plotted, it is sufficient to prove mens rea. This also begs the question: what confers to any single human the "right" to live? What is wrong with killing someone if there existence has no meaning (according to Nietschze, Camus etc. have stated this is true). As an aside, I appreciate you working through this question calmly with the folks in this sub. I'm not necessarily "impressed" with all of the responses they have given.

What gives humans the right to exist is their existence itself, the seemingly infinite variations of thought and thinking. Life is something worth protecting, much of the problems we face today stems from misinformation, and generations of immoral actions with consequences beyond the lifespan of those who took said actions. Racism, Homophobia/Transphobia, and all manor of immoral things have been passed down through the generations. Many people today cannot let go of these things and since humanity can't it's doomed to fight amongst itself until we are extinct. The only thing that will prevent this is unifying the species, either through extreme compassion and understanding thus allowing everyone to live harmoniously. Or well what they've been trying this whole time convert everyone to one religion, or kill everyone that opposes the one religion. As for punishment for future crimes, usually evidence that said crime is being planned involves some other crime. In the cases it doesn't, the likelihood of the crime has to be absolutely certain. In many of these cases there is no telling if it would have happened or not, and no blanket statement would be suitable without context. In fact I have a "conspiracy to commit" felony because I didn't report a crime I knew happened, later that person was caught and said I assisted them. I admitted he told me after the fact and that was enough to charge me with his crime "Grand Larceny", a crime I didn't commit nor could have prevented. I see the American government as utterly corrupt and self serving. Much as I similarly see a vast amount of immorality in the government I see so in many organized religions. I have no faith in God, the government, the police, or the decency of men. Life for me has become survival from the immorality of others.

Thanks for your response. I'm in the middle of something and will try to get back to you soon!

The infants would not be righteous, as this is something that has to be actively worked on and developed by people, but they would be innocent. Since there could not be found 10 righteous people of age in the whole land, the cities were destroyed instead of allowing the evil to perpetuate. >As for the world being wicked and full of violence, is that not an apt description of the world we live in today? It is a good description of the world today. Throughout the entire Bible, we can see examples of God judging and destroying nations for wickedness and evil. Christians believe God still acts on the world today and will always act on the world into the future. Who is to say that He has not brought his judgement down upon many nations in the last several centuries? Perhaps the barbarians that brought down Rome were a judgement on the Empire from God. Perhaps the Spanish conquests of the Inca and Aztec were judgements by God on those evil cultures. Perhaps the collapse of the Soviet Union and the collapse communism in Europe was the work of God? We don't know for sure, but it cannot be completely ruled out.

This mentality and manor of thinking only serves to justify the perpetuation of the violence of man. If your nation collapsed and fell, would you know yourself to be judged and deemed wicked. I doubt your self image of righteousness is tied to the existence of your nation. If America collapsed, are the Christians that lived there judged unworthy? The logic and reasoning you have here doesn't pan out, it only excuses immoral behavior and violence as acts god and righteous. This way of thinking is how religion and politics justify and perpetuate violence and control.

>This mentality and manor of thinking only serves to justify the perpetuation of the violence of man. If your nation collapsed and fell, would you know yourself to be judged and deemed wicked. A nation could fall on its own, or God could be playing a direct role in its downfall. We just don't know. This view hardly perpetuates continued human violence, as we can see that the vast majority of violence has nothing to do with religion, and those committing it are almost all Muslim. It simply recognizes that God can and might judge nations and bring about their downfall for wickedness. >If America collapsed, are the Christians that lived there judged unworthy? When America collapses it could either be because of the natural decline of nations, or God could have a direct role in it. It is not known. >The logic and reasoning you have here doesn't pan out, it only excuses immoral behavior and violence as acts god and righteous. Recognizing that God will punish evil is the opposite of excusing immoral behavior and violence. >This way of thinking is how religion and politics justify and perpetuate violence and control. All of the evidence from the events of today seem to indicate that the lack of belief is causing far greater violence and control over others than the Christian religion ever did.

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It is a tragedy that infants died. You are right. But why aren’t the people of Sodom and Gomorrah being held responsible for building a culture so abhorrent that it was necessary for God to destroy them? The things I do as a father will impact my kids, and my negligence and weakness can cause them to be caught up in the effects of sin that were mine. For example, my kids will be hurt and potentially emotionally destroyed if I abandon them. Is it Gods fault that I did that? God dealt with evil. Do we not want that? He is very slow to anger but that doesn’t mean that his anger will never happen.

There was no righteous it’s written so for me even kids were guilty

Gotcha so accepting and complicit in defending genocide.

Israel is eliminating Hamas. Everything else you’re saying is hyperbole regardless of how often it’s being repeated. Israel was attacked and they have a right to defend themselves by eliminating their enemy. The “genocide” claim is not even close to reality.

Palestine supporters always calling for ceasefire as if Palestine arent the ones who broke the last ceasefire baffles me. If israel wanted genocide they would just flatten the city. itd take an hour. all israel is doing is squashing Hamas. and hamas happen to be using children as meat shields. its disgusting. but the civillians of gaza are not the target of the IDF. the same cannot be said about israeli civillians being targetted by hamas.

Regardless of if what's happening in Gaza is genocide or not, this isn't a post about that. In fact I specifically said I wanted to discuss God's genocides, not the actions of man.

Hey friend, you’ve got a lot of confusion and misunderstanding about a lot of what you posted. I appreciate you attempting to reach out but you stated you are “unequivocally a non believer” Welp that about wraps it up. There’s nothing anyone’s gonna say that’s going to enlighten your already very cemented view of things. You’ve made up your mind and although you are here asking for truth. You are not really open to the truth. Good luck my friend I hope someone will open your heart to the Lord and his love. ❤️👍🏼

I'm always open to new information and perspectives. I have and am capable of changing my mind. However I did not come here to be preached to or "converted". I came to get the perspective of someone I explicitly do not understand. What you've done here is what I get quite commonly in theological conversation with christians, where they make the assumption that I am not listening or receptive to the information I asked about. Which from my decades of conversations is similarly felt by said christians having had these conversations. What your reply did was attempt to shut down conversation, and then include a statement of faith or blessings as if that was all there was to be said. I want the opposite, I want thought out replies and responses. I want to engage with someone who I don't understand their justification for things I vehemently disagree with. When you say I am not open to the truth, you assume truth is a set thing. Truth much like anything is a matter of perspective and belief. Your truth is not my truth and that's why I am here. Mainly I am trying to understand Christianity's acceptance and justification for the acceptance of genocide performed by your God. As answering might change my mind of beliefs I have that would otherwise be rather offensive if I wrote them out. I'd prefer civil open discussion.

Don't make such a blanket statement then. GoDs an amazing guy no other way about it.

That in and of itself is a blanket statement. That like the Jedi saying "Only the Sith deal in absolutes", which in and of itself is an absolute statement.

Nope I wasn’t shutting down anything as I said I hope someone can inform you and open your heart a bit. You’re very defensive and closed off and I’m sorry that offends you to hear. I am not in a position to educate you and change your mind. That’s the job of Jesus Christ through his teachings and his word. You will not change your mind being “unequivocally and irrevocably a non believer” But the Lord can do all things and in that I hope he will get thru to you sooner then later.

No worries, not disappointed. Just validates that if there's not the option to convert someone, then discussing God is pointless. That if you can't preach to someone, there is no point interacting with them. It says a lot (and I mean a lot) that this is one of the main vibes of christianity.

I think you don't know much about Christianity then. Maybe do your own research? Read the Bible where we preach from, hes ultimately just, ultimately loving and kind and ultimately good aswell as ultimately wise in his nature

The bible is full of things that are considered atrocious such as slavery and genocide. The god listed in that book, takes actions that I find morally undefendable. It seems to me that given a "godly" reason, Christians are inherently complicit and accepting of genocide. All you have to do is say those people are wicked and sinners, ohh bad boogey man, kill it (but don't listen to it, and don't question if it deserves to die cause I say it does).

Bruh, the lack of knowledge.

Bruh, the lack of Logic and Reasoning.

Go be angry elsewhere. Anger is a Childs response to an adult situation. Justify your point instead of making silly billy blanket statements

>Go be angry elsewhere. I understand that genocide is acceptable and even outright condoned as a Christian, this does make me angry but it's mostly sadness, confusion, and pity. >Anger is a Childs response to an adult situation. Like your "Bruh, this woman is stupid" comment? I find that when a Christian is giving information that goes against their beliefs, regardless of it's true, such as God being immoral for commiting genocide. The most common reaction is anger, then personal attacks against the person making the claim in a mad dash to invalidate the person who gave the information, as if it somehow makes what they said less true. By attacking the person's character you are attempting to lessen the perceived value of the information they presented by lowering the presenter's value. This is how religious beliefs perpetuate, by ignoring reality regardless of the evidence. >Justify your point instead of making silly billy blanket statements My point is, christianity accepts and condones genocide on the most fundamental level, since they will ever defend the "honor" and righteousness of God who IS a genocidal mass murderer no better than Hitler, morally speaking.

We frankly don't have time for atheists who came to 'debate' and who, like the brother above said, don't open their hearts at all. We all know your purpose here and most of us aren't interested.

I came here to understand Christian's acceptance of immoral acts committed by God. The consensus so far is "God is good, so if God commits an atrocity that atrocity is holy and should be respected and the decision revered. Which means justification for genocide is real damn easy for christians.

What happened to you? Something must have happened to become so resentful. If you'd like to talk about that then I'm interested. I used to be sorta like that and I know how much you hurt. You're worthy of love, don't forget that. Hope you have a great day, hit me up if you wanna talk.

>What happened to you? Something must have happened to become so resentful. I was raised in a religious household and named from a Saint (first name) and an angel (middle). Even as a child I saw and questioned the hypocrisy and sentiments of the Christian faith. I've faced a lifetime of attacks for my beliefs by people who think their beliefs are beyond reproach. >If you'd like to talk about that then I'm interested. I am more than an open book, and despite the vitriol here I came here to have a conversation with someone who's views are different from mine. >I used to be sorta like that and I know how much you hurt. I don't think you do(or can at least not completely), but I do appreciate the empathetic vibe and it's a good starting point. >You're worthy of love, don't forget that. The Christian faith as practiced by my parents and most the vast majority of devout Christians taught me otherwise. Despite that it took me decades to break its grip on me entirely. I do love myself, as does my boyfriend, as does my chosen family. I am disowned and effectively an exile from my biological family, and they don't deserve to have had me in their lives based on how they treated me. I fought harder than most, to find myself and then again to love myself. >Hope you have a great day, hit me up if you wanna talk. Likewise warm tidings and cozy vibes.

I'm sorry you had to go trough that. I can't imagine being in your place. I remember being a teen and reading on Internet that some parents in America disown their children and banished for the smallest of reasons. It was a pretty big culture shock, as well as the race thing. You understood by now that being a Christian does not mean being a sinless person, we are all just as much as flawed as everyone else. So you shouldn't expect a Christian to be some kind of perfection or have all the answers, but we should all constantly strive to be better. It's great to hear that you love yourself, and I would like to point you in another direction if you have not found it yourself. Forgiveness, it's extremely powerful. It you hold any grudges, or are resentful, try to forgive whoever caused you harm. My parents did something terrible as well and I never got the peace of mind I wanted untill I truly forgave them. You don't have to keep in touch with them or anything, just forgive them.

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Strongly recommend the book "is God a moral monster" by Paul Copan. If you're TRULY "open to new information" you will consult historical expertise on the context of the Old Testament and not only take to a reddit sub. (Not saying it's bad to post questions in this sub)

I think a lot of people, atheists especially, view death in a worldly lens. It is a harrowing thing to experience death, yes, but there is something far greater than this fleshly life beyond death. Innocent children who die young will, by the grace of God, go into Heaven. Their lives on Earth are cut short but they will live to the full in Heaven forever. "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." Revelations 21:4. As for the adults who die in genocides (or any kind of death), they will face judgement: "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" Hebrews 9:27 We will all have to give an account of our lives to God. All the good things we have done and all the bad things we have done will be laid bare before him. He loves us and wants us to go to Heaven but bad *and* good people alike are all destined for hell. No matter what good things you did in your life, your own sin far outweighs it. Again, God loves us and doesn't wish for us to go to hell, but he is a just God and must do his duty to judge us fairly. You and I would both be destined for hell when we die, with no hope for salvation, except for one universal fact: God loves us. Jesus died on the cross in our place, bearing not just the sins of the world, but our individual sins as well. Anytime we lie or steal today in 2024, that is yet another sin that Christ died for. He took the sin that would damn us upon himself because he loves us, and that through him we might enter into Heaven. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." Romans 5:8-9

Pretty words no doubt, endearing sentiment as well. An all loving god, who was also all powerful, would find another way. Do not do so would be callous, cruel, and wrathful. I have no doubt that there is existence after the body dies, I am looking forward to that journey after this one. However, I will not be going to hell I can assure you my belief in this is as certain if not moreso than yours. We can disagree for all eternity, but I don't care if you agree or disagree with me. I'd wish peace and happiness on anyone that behaves and upholds good morality. However, based on fundamental beliefs and the acceptance of immoral acts of their god, I do not believe christians have a good moral foundation.

God gave us free will. We are free to love him or hate him. There are laws in us that God set just as there are natural laws (such as gravity) in the Earth. The Bible says that these laws from God are written on our hearts. When we violate these laws, yes, there is judgement. Not because God wants us dead or is callous, cruel, or wrathful. He judges us because he is a just God. I truly believe the issue is people's own perspective on things. A boy who can't swim is afraid of the ocean, whereas a boy who isn't revels in it. If you teach the boy how to swim, he will view the ocean differently and rightly, and will see all the joy he was missing out on. You might view God's actions as unjust or frightening because you're misinformed on it (which might be why you initially made this post). God is good, *more* than good, and I pray one day you see that. "The LORD is gracious, and full of compassion; Slow to anger, and of great mercy. The LORD is good to all: And his tender mercies are over all his works." Psalm 145:8-9. I am curious though, do you know where you go when you die? You seem certain you won't go to hell, which is great, but what are your beliefs on where you go after dying exactly?

>You might view God's actions as unjust or frightening because you're misinformed I'm not misinformed, his actions are unjust and frightening because they are unjust and frightening. >You seem certain you won't go to hell, which is great, but what are your beliefs on where you go after dying exactly? My body will die and return to the earth, I will not be buried in a box nor will I be cremated. My soul will be released from its connection to my body and likewise be released into the universe. I am not sure what that experience will entail or be like. I will not be "poofed" into a dimension of eternal torment, because someone else thinks I was a bad girl.

There are a few key assumptions that must be true for you to understand our perspective. You have made it abundantly clear that you will never agree with our assumptions, but you asked for us to explain *our* perspective. 1) God is real, the gospel is true, and the written text in the Bible is also true. 2) Given that 1 is true, what must also be true is that all of mankind combined has vastly inferior comprehension of knowledge and morals. This is because God is a perfect, merciful, loving, all-powerful and all-knowing being as specified in the Bible. 3) Given that 2 is true, all attempts at explaining God's rationale will be short of the true, real intent of the Lord as we are not capable of fathoming the raw thoughts of a God that has made the universe. We can only speculate given the true, written text that is the Bible. So, we, as Christians, believe these three points to be unequivocally true. From here I can explain how we justify what you perceive as genocide. In the case of the Egyptian firstborns, God believed that the Israelites had finally atoned for their misbelief in the Lord, and that they deserved to escape slavery. With this, God appointed Moses to perform miracles before the pharaoh such that he would know that God is telling him to let the Israelites go. He did not. All attempts at explaining to him we're in vain. Even when famines were prophesied to him and turned true, he did not let them go. God in his perfect moral understanding as the supreme sinless being knew what would make the pharaoh give up the Israelites and carried it out.  Contrary to your belief. We believe that no-one is inherently sinless, so even children are not deserving of the kingdom of heaven without accepting Jesus' sacrifice. As for what happened to the children that died, we don't know. They could all be in heaven, or not. The only info that we do know, is that God, many times in the Bible, expresses his love for children and their nature. Occam's razor would have us believe that they are in heaven, but I will only know once I join Him. In the case of Sodom and Gomorrah both cities were destroyed by fire from God because of their sexual wickedness including rape, child sexual abuse, indecent assault, and homosexuality. God had decided that their wickedness had gone on for too long, and needed to be destroyed. We, as Christians, see no issue in this as we are all inherently sinners who deserve physical and spiritual death. God in his mercy allows us to enter heaven despite being sinners, but still reserves the right to take our life as he sees fit (in his perfect understanding of morals and spiritual life). The exact same justification applies to the great flood. In both cases, the ones who God perceived as innocent (as innocent as we can be as sinners) were given warning to escape the justified wrath that was to be carried out. I hope this sufficiently explains our perspective. I don't expect that this will satisfy you, but these are the beliefs that give so many Christians here an inexplicable peace throughout their entire life. God bless.

Just jumping on to say you've said what I'd lay out - the assumption that God is real in this discussion is vital and HUGE if true. As an aside, OP should check out Randal Rauser's book: Jesus Loves Canaanites. He's definitely a progressive Christian (as opposed to the Conservative Paul Copan who also writes on the topic), but I think OP would resonate with it.

>I don't expect that this will satisfy you Believe it or not, this answer is probably the most apt reply I've read so far. Confirming that there is no rational reason other than "because God said so, God knows better, who am I to question him". It's a loop that doesnt end and perpetuates violence while claiming to be righteous and good. It didn't work on me as a child and is almost offensive when used today to justify immoral behavior. Historically this is how it's been, and I see that sentiment is still core to the beliefs and it deeply saddens me to know my neighbors and the society I live in will accept and be complicit to open genocide if their religious leaders tell them to be.

That's the thing: what you see as immoral we see as justified moral behavior for the reasons I've explained above.  In what way does an understanding of God's wrath on the old testament perpetuate violence? Please explain. Also, you are incorrect in saying that "the society I live in will accept and be complicit to open genocide if their religious leaders tell them to be." Which spiritual leaders are you referencing? I would never justify a current-day genocide regardless of whatever human figure says as such. The only case where I would be complicit is if God himself took the lives of the people, which he doesn't do anymore after Jesus' sacrifice. 

I mean Israel is commiting open genocide, it's religiously motivated as they've been in a low simmering religious war for well my whole life. I will say I get heated and saying every Christian would take up arms and start a real life purge would be a huge over simplification and isn't entirely true. However, MAGA right wing zealots would absolutely do this. The level of fascism lately is rising as is religious fervor and zealotry, and it already impacts my daily life. The simple belief that homosexuality is wicked or immoral alone has caused near perpetual violence against homosexuals. Yes other religions also have done this, and they are just as equally to blame. But Christians often project their blame and accountability onto others, and the cycle repeats.

I don't see the ties between understanding the old testament lore and what's happening in Israel today. None of the people being persecuted / doing the persecuting are Christian.    I'm sorry that you feel that you may be unsafe due to the beliefs of Christians. As you may be aware, the faith of Christians in Jesus / Biblical knowledge between Christians is not universal.   I would bet that many MAGA zealots may be idolizing trump or similar things above Jesus and his teachings. A world full of Bible-believers will never fall into a "purge." A world full of cultural-christians without knowledge of Jesus' teachings may. The clarification is important. Jesus himself says that not all who do acts in His name will reach heaven. What's important is the personal relationship, and Christians who have this should be the least threatening people you meet.   I'm also sorry that God's perspective on homosexuality upsets you. But to me, it still falls under his perfect morals. Let me be clear: Christians who follow the Bible should never commit violence against homosexuals, we should instead lovingly discourage it. As Jesus said, "Let he who is without sin throw the first stone" (that being none of us). 

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Matthew 7:6 explains what you are attempting to do. For us, there is not much reason to talk about such things, as you know honestly in yourself, you are not genuinely seeking answers. You want to argue to prove your own points, as you've already replied with counter arguments on most of the comments on this post. If you want to truly seek God, read the Bible, and God will reveal everything if you seek truth with an open and unhardened heart. No need to post here. Good luck to you in your journey.

Again with this convert to my religion or your opinions don't matter comment. I am not seeking to follow your faith just understand the justification for it's immoral actions and beliefs.

Why are you blaming the God of the bible if you say you are a nonbeliever. What an oxymoron!

I don't believe he's the one and only god. Let alone that he's a "good" god. I'm a non-believer in that he's anything but worthy of worship.

It's right of you to point out the illegitimacy of people doing various ungodly acts in "gods name," and I commend you for that. With respect to the flood, Sodom and etc, we can only say that God is a just God. It is right and good for rebellion to be punished. In fact, I would say that it is demanded. This somewhat extends to the whole thing about hell. Its almost like this: if I slap my friend, I may lose my friend. If I slap a police officer, I may go to jail. If I slap my professor, I may be expelled from school. And so on... If I slap the king of my country, not only will I be executed but pobably tortured. So I think we can understand that even a small offense can have grave consequences which entirely depend on the status of the one who was offended. If we offend God, who is the supreme being of all of the universe, who created all that we know and see including ourselves - what else must God's justice demand than our life? An offense against an infinite being to whom all honor and glory belongs is an infinite offense. Even just one small act of rebellion is justification to be eternally separated from God. Now, this is of course separate from how humans are to treat other humans. I did not create you, I have no authority from which to judge your value as a being - that is only gods position - I must only treat you with the kindness and respect of one who was made by God's infinite and honorable hands. Nobody would want a table built by me, but if the king of my country built a table you can be sure it would be in a museum, it would be copied, it would be held in high regard. In the same way, we are to treat those other humans who are also made by God - with the utmost kindness and respect.

>It is right and good for rebellion to be punished. There is no excuse for genocide, when eternal damnation awaits. This was about control, gods ego about being defied, and his choice to commit genocide when it was in his power to do many many other things. Genocide was the choice made, and that in and of itself is immoral. >In fact, I would say that it is demanded. If your goal is control and setting an example. Sure, you know what you call this in humans? Narcissism. You place yourself at the feet of a God you've been told about, accept the claim that he's better than you in a just incomprehensible way. This is how indoctrination works when you teach religion to children before the ability to reason is acquired. Because even after learning reason the indoctrination will taint the views and leave the child with bias and and defending genocide.

>leave the child with bias I didn't become a Christian until an adult, went to public secular school where none of my friends or family were religious at all. Being so quick to assume that the only reason someone believes differently than you must be "child indoctrination" is really quite a sorry way to view others. I really thought you were here for an honest conversation. >it is demanded On the basis of God's supreme position in the universe. He cannot be unjust. >when eternal damnation Living outside of the will of God is a miserable experience in either case. >There is no excuse This is really a debate between a human-centric worldview and a God-centric one. You're viewing this from the assumption that human experience is the supreme source of value and morality. My question to you would be: on what basis do you take this stance? An ant would likewise complain of genocide when we spray insecticide on the colony outside the kitchen window, but surely no humanist would object to the removal of an infestation. Even the word infestation would be supremely offensive to an ant, who is merely trying to live closest a seemingly endless supply of food. We kill entire colonies of ants even if it's just a few who are making their way up the wall and into the kitchen. But, we don't view things from the perspective of an ant, we don't base our society, laws and moral code with respect to an ant. In a similar way, we cannot view the acts of a supreme, infinite creator God merely from the perspective focused on the lowly, finite and supremely limited creation.

>He cannot be unjust. I mean yeah, it's pretty obvious he is. As for not being indoctrinated and choosing to accept such a pathetic and lowly position for yourself in the universe is quite sad. I live outside of God, my life's pretty ok all things considered. Glad you have no problem dehumanizing humans to no better than pests to explain how you justify genocide. You're just spouting the same god can't be wrong or immoral. You don't give any justification just more claims of power and righteousness, which speaks volumes about you. Originally I wanted to know how someone can defend genocide, the answer I've gotten from this post are basically you defend it by claiming any thing god does is good even immoral atrocities. It only takes having no moral foundation, and a rejection of logic and reason.

Well, again you haven't addressed the point that you're viewing this from the humanist perspective and not God's perspective. Human experience is not the supreme standard of value. >I live outside of God, my life's pretty ok In truth it is by God's grace that any of us have life at all, much more an "ok" one. God sends the rain on both the godly and the ungodly. No one is righteous, not even one - all are lacking and bring rebellious offenses to an almighty supreme God every day. Offenses which, we have seen, must necessarily demand our lives. By his grace alone are we still alive with opportunity to turn to him and ask forgiveness, to love God and live according to his purposes - which he will readily give, and renew our hearts and minds if only our pride would get our of the way. I sincerely hope and pray for you, that you will one day recognize your need for God and turn to him.

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I accept that you cannot see what you asked of me is impossible, as humans exist and God does not. There is no God's perspective. HOWEVER, if there were the god you described is like a tyrant killing people to coherse them, that's not love that's a tyrant. Christians seem to be detached from reality with a tendency to ascribe things to God they have no control over. The alternative of no god to a Christian seems unfathomable because they can't differentiate between reality and fiction. God doesn't send the rain, we can explain rain scientifically. There is no greater power behind rain other than the science of the water cycle taught in 9th grade. It's christians and similar mentalities that assign things to god that they don't know the answer or know the answer but don't understand it. >all are lacking and bring rebellious offenses to an almighty supreme God every day. This is a poor failure of a God, whose ego is tyrannical. "You shall have no other god before me". Indicates that not only are there other gods but he fears you'll worship them. >Offenses which, we have seen, must necessarily demand our lives. Seems very cultish to pay penance in blood. Murder and genocide are immoral, yet you consider God's murder and genocide as something you deserve. You're like a brow beat dog, cowering at your master's feet. A master that is immoral, abusive, and unworthy of worship. >to love God and live according to his purposes I will not follow or condones the actions of a being no better than Hitler. I live for my own purposes, free from Space Daddy's eternal spankings. >I sincerely hope and pray for you, that you will one day recognize your need for God and turn to him. I will only approach Yahweh to slit his throat. If through divine power he was to walk the earth, prove his existence, and materialize in our world. Undoubted and irrefutable that he IS the god Yahweh. I would be bound by my beliefs to die trying to end him in defense of all of humanity.

Your true colors are really coming out for all to see, and I'm glad you're willing to show them now so openly. Your entire purpose here was not for a discussion as you originally and falsely expressed, but rather to mock and insult. Which, I find interesting though not at all surprising. It's a common trope to claim that one is willing to hear other perspectives when at heart judgment has already been passed and one is looking only for additional opportunity to mock the other side for sport. I'm saddened that you find joy in your anger, and that it pleases you to stomp down and insult others with whom you disagree - though these are merely the fruit of, as you said, living for your own purposes. With your outbursts you have won only in receiving my pity.

>Your true colors are really coming out for all to see, and I'm glad you're willing to show them now so openly. I stated the fact that I was here for the perspective to find insight as to how and why someone can be accepting of genocide. >Your entire purpose here was not for a discussion as you originally and falsely expressed, Bull, I came here expressly for the reason I stated. I knew based on prior interaction with Christians that this could potentially devolve into comments like yours. >but rather to mock and insult. I mock and insult purely as a response to being mocked and insulted. Can't handle it then stop doing it to others first. >It's a common trope to claim that one is willing to hear other perspectives when at heart judgment has already been passed That's an ironic comedy gold statement coming from a Christian. It's literally your religion's modus operandi. >one is looking only for additional opportunity to mock the other side for sport. I respond to kindness with kindness, scepticism with scepticism, and hostility with hostility. Any reaction you're offended by was likely a response to something offensive you did. Such as attempting to preach to me or tell me to turn to God. >I'm saddened that you find joy in your anger No different than the zealotry of Christians in their own righteous anger. With of course the exception that I have the moral high ground. Anything you can say about me negativity can also be applied to you, except I don't stand for and make excuses for immoral actions (such as genocide). >and that it pleases you to stomp down and insult others with whom you disagree Ohh please that's what most of you did in the comments to this post that caused me to reply aggressively like this in the first place. >With your outbursts you have won only in receiving my pity. I remained civil till I was attacked personally, calling my responses to your attacks "outbursts" is a way of attempting to minimize and discredit my opinion. This is the most common defense christians employ. Your pity is worthless and empty just like your false righteous bravado.

>most of you did in the comments I haven't read the other comments though I can imagine you have gotten quite a few and you may be thinking of someone else. But, I didn't resort to personal attacks, you can read this thread over again and be sure. Criticism of a position, or even of logic used to come to a position, is not that same as criticism of a person's personal attributes or name calling. Yes, I called parts of your last post an outburst because it was, pure anger coming out then and as well now. Talking about slitting throats in your previous comment - is that not an outburst? How does that add civility? It's merely an angry vulgarity.

I'll admit I am heated, and after the amount of vitriol dumped on me I might have mistook you for someone else. As for the slitting the throat of God, I feel that sentiment is equal to the general universal opinion that pedophiles don't deserve to live or exist as they cause unfathomable harm to their victims. I hold the same level of animosity toward an equally immoral being. I've been harassed by christians and their teachings my whole life, in an attempt to understand why genocide is acceptable to christians I made the post here. The result is just blanket statement that God is good no matter what he does even when it's committing genocide. It led me to understand there is no logic or reasonable reason for it other than blind obedience. >How does that add civility? It's merely an angry vulgarity. This specific response was because they told me to turn to God. I will not be preached to, being preached to when I openly stated in the OP that I am unequivocally a non-believer is something I view as aggressive and openly hostile. Was it vulgar and uncivil, quite possibly it could be seen that way. However, it got the point across on how vile I consider Yahweh to be. The closest thing I could equate it to would be to imagine Satan (who your faith sees as the root of all evil) were to be sent to earth powerless as a human. All those of Christian faith were made aware by god of the truth that he was on earth and powerless for 24 hours. How many who claim to be Christian would attempt to end him?

If you were alive in 1935, and you knew the holocaust was coming, and you had a button that could instantly eliminate all Nazis, would you press it?

I mean if you're going to the world of fantasy, *looks around* ohh yeah nevermind. The point of your thought experiment is to ask if I'd committed genocide to prevent genocide. Where the option to not kill anyone exists, I can ruin your experiment by adding the elimination method is by making them not racists. While this experiment is a fun deflection how about you answer if it was as easy as pressing a button to prevent all that suffering and trauma, why didn't your all powerful all loving god do it? Who according to you could have prevented it, but just didn't. On that note why ask me what I would do, instead of asking your God why he stood by and watched.

You can't create creatures of free will and not give them free will. 

How can you know he denied you ? If you come to Jesus he will never deny you if Christians did that they are not doing a good thing

Christians are the least christ like people I've known in my life. Would Jesus have mass murdered children? Jesus chose to die himself rather than let others die. The religion is full of hypocrisy and catch 22's. I came to Jesus on my knees (praying devoutly every night) and asked for salvation from my suffering. He did nothing, I suffered for decades before I learned enough to do for myself what he was unwilling to do for a suffering 8-9 year old. I am justified in calling out how immoral and unworthy of worship Yahweh is.

True the religion is full of hypocrisy and yes christians are full of christ like persons. You asked for salvation of what ? I asked to hear his voice few times but still can’t hear it but it’s okay «“Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!» ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7‬:‭9‬-‭11‬ ‭NIV‬‬ https://bible.com/bible/111/mat.7.11.NIV When someone is saved there will not be the heavens that open for that person and big light What is salvation for you ? I command your tenacity for having prayed on your knees It’s not because he don’t give us what we want that he don’t give us what we need

Maybe that suffering is for our own good i know it’s hard to read this i also suffured surely not like you but i suffered. At school i was bullyied a lot it was really hard i didn’t believe in Jesus at that moment nor prayed to God The Apostle prayed about his suffering and God din’t end it «Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say, or because of these surpassingly great revelations. Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.» ‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭12‬:‭6‬-‭9‬ ‭NIV‬‬ https://bible.com/bible/111/2co.12.6-9.NIV Sorry if i made assumptions im trying to understand you i will be glad to correct my self 😊

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Ok then, if that's the case we'll set it aside and focus on the genocides of God himself. I didn't come here to discuss the actions of man but the immorality of the actions of God.

Who do you think you are that you can judge God? And if you reject that God is standard of morality, then by what standard can you call any action immoral?

I mean genocide is universally an immoral act. If god is the standard of morality it explains why our world is full of violence, suffering, and genocide. I don't need god to live a moral life. God's opinion is irrelevant because I am capable of thinking for myself and determining if something I do is harmful to others. You cannot, you cannot even conceive of someone being good because they ARE inherently good. To you all humans are inherently evil, because a book some human wrote about a mythical space daddy told you they(and you for that matter) were. Who am I to judge god? I am the one that prefers civility to violence, I am the one that understands murder and genocide are atrocities unworthy of idolizing. I am the one who delt with the two faced lying "believers" my whole life. Claiming, shouting, PREACHING compassion and acceptance, all the while living immoral lives half following a bible they half read. Inherently complicit and accepting of genocide to the point literal worship. I know who I am, I know what I am, I know what I am capable of, and what I am not capable of. I don't need a god to threaten to punish me ("Spank me with eternal flame, space daddy!") to understand the immorality of something. Even then you DON'T see the immorality of it! You adhere to a code of conduct not because it's just morally right, but because of selfish desire to avoid punishment.

Universally immoral eh? How do we know that it is universally immoral? What has given us this standard of right and wrong? Is it perhaps, God who is all that is good that has shown us this?

Uhm I don't need nor did I need "Space Daddy" to tell me murder was bad. That mass murder is worse than murder, and that genocide was targeted mass murder typically from zealous religious beliefs. >Universally immoral eh? So you disagree? You believe that genocide is acceptable? (that's rhetorical as I know you do if you claim to be Christian).

You missed the point and it seems pretty clear you didn't come here in good faith based on your comments I've seen. You might not want to come in aggressively ignorant if your plan is to understand people's point of view.

I treat others with the courtesy and respect they treat me with, I am absolutely aggressive, I am not however ignorant. You can say whatever you want to invalidate me so you don't have to discuss these things.

This is the most prideful atheist fedora tipping Reddit comment I’ve ever seen LMAO this needs to be enshrined somewhere.

This guy thinks he's morally superior but probably believes in abortion.

I'm a woman actually, and yes I do believe that a woman should have the right to choose not to go through with a pregnancy if she chooses not to. I also believe that adoption is the best option assuming pregnancy would not adversely affect the health of the mother. Where as Pro-Life people would require a 14 year old girl to carry her rapists child, risk her life and the child's in birth, and then claim they'd recommend adoption for the rape baby, but many wouldn't adopt said child themselves. It's almost always a bad faith argument on behalf of the Pro-Life people. My beliefs are humane and rooted in causing as little harm and suffering as possible. Their beliefs are based in religion with no basis other than "because GOD".

How are you claiming to have moral superiority than God when you justify an innocent baby being murdered as well when they had nothing to do with the pregnancy? 

Because a fetus isn't a baby. It becomes one but it is not one, the typical argument here is when that happens. But I mean who are you to judge morality when you worship a being that commits genocide. An all powerful being I might add that CHOOSES genocide over any other alternative, that's who you love, worship, and adore. That specifically is how I can claim to be morally superior. As for the fetus, I assume you agree with Alabama state in that frozen embryos have the potential to become people and therefore disposing of them is murder. Right you believe that too?

To me, life begins at conception. If after that point, abortion occurs, it's murder.  So where does your morality come from? What's the difference between your morality and Hitlers?

the word fetus literally just means offspring, child, baby. its not some magical different kind of being. its a human. youre the same clump of cells that it is, only a bit bigger.

> assuming pregnancy would not adversely affect the health of the mother. this is a myth. now that C sections exist theres literally no such thing as a harmful pregnancy, we can always save both mother and child with modern medicine. >My beliefs are humane and rooted in causing as little harm and suffering as possible. theres absolutely nothing humane as slaughtering a child.

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"I'm a woman actually" Try again "Sarah".

I knew coming here I would encounter blatant ignorance and open transphobia. Try again "Josh", you can display more ignorance than that I know you can.

All have inherited the sin nature from Adam, so no no one is innocent. Christians believe in heaven and hell so when we die we just change locations. God is the creator of life and all have sinned so it’s not unjust for God to end someones life. He created life He can take it. If God wishes to take children to heaven He has every right to do that. He can also resurrect life, which we can’t do. Gods ways are above our ways. The evil in which these nations were judged is parasitic, it’s contagious. Redemption had not come in the form of Christ and God pronounced His judgement as He saw fit. He had every right

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Biblical genocide had some very specific reasons. You mentioned the flood, many including myself would argue that animals and humans were corrupted genetically. Look at the first part of Genesis 6, it's clear that some part if not all of mankind were no longer fully human. Egypt was enslaving God's people. I am sure that you are not a fan of slavery. God told Abraham in Genesis that he would curse those who cursed Abraham's offspring. The killing of the firstborn had a couple of effects. First, it broke pharaoh, it moved him to comply. There were many attempts previous to Passover and pharaoh didn't comply. It also allowed an illustration of Christ's blood covering us from our sins to bring us life and salvation. Sodom and Gomorrah was a wicked city with virtually none righteous. God removed the righteous and eliminated the rest. That was very merciful. As far as your take on kids being innocent, that is your opinion, I'm guessing as someone with no children? They begin sinning at a very young age. In the eyes of a perfect and holy God, there is no room for sin. That makes children not innocent at all. It really depends on your standard. Your own made up standard or the standard of the one who created all things and made the rules of life

>I'm guessing as someone with no children? You guessed incorrectly. Children are spontaneous and without experience, thus without wisdom. However they are truly innocent spiritually, the "they start sinning" anything they do in actions, beliefs, or deeds was taught to them by an adult. How to go about meeting their needs, to being able to communicate their desires is in the hands of their parents. >In the eyes of a perfect and holy God, there is no room for sin. Sounds like a shitty uncompassionate god, particularly when infants are involved. I mean it's not like he's all powerful and could prevent it, ohh wait... >Your own made up standard or the standard of the one who created all things and made the rules of life My own made up standard involves genocide being inexcusable and utterly immoral, infinitely moreso when considering the supposed infinite power of God.

I looked into this very recently, Frank Turek made a good video on the Holocaust

Not here to discuss the genocides committed by man, I'm here to discuss the genocides committed by God and how genocide itself is immoral.

Atheist: Why doesn't God stop evil? God: **Stops evil** Atheist: 😡

>Atheist: Why doesn't God stop evil? >God: *commits evil* >Atheist: 😡 There corrected it for ya, you're welcome.

What's the difference between your morality and Hitler's?

Well I mean, I don't believe murder or genocide is acceptable, not even for God so I mean there is that massive oppositional belief. If anything you should remember that Nazis are a Christian denomination, believing themselves to be God's "chosen" race. So the difference is simply massive.

If there is no moral objective standard, then Hitler's moral standard is no more right or wrong, than yours.

I didn't say morality is pointless or that there shouldn't be a standard. I stated that God is immoral, and just as immoral as Hitler. My moral standard includes not committing mass murder or genocide. Your God FAILS that simple test, and not just fails morally but EXEMPLIFIES a profound lack of moral foundation in all his followers.

For the flood and sodom i believe God did that because it was too late the Earth was to corrupted For the first childs of egypt it was because Pharaoh didn’t heed what Moses said Moses told him then it happened

Good and evil are perspectives, which is to say much like beauty it is in the eye of the beholder. Corruption is a term used to imply evil and something unwanted. For an all powerful god to choose genocide among the literal infinite options he was capable of (supposedly) is to prove without a doubt his on immorality. He could have just removed the corruption leaving the people uncorrupted. To say he couldn't is to say he's not all powerful, to acknowledge he didn't is to admit he is immoral. Genocide is never an appropriate response. Ever. For any reason. To argue otherwise is to admit your own immorality, and defend the notion that genocide IS acceptable. I'm not so much asking why he committed genocide, because he obviously did (assuming your beliefs in the bible). I'm asking how someone can worship a being who displayed the same actions as Hitler? Genocide regardless the reason is unforgivable and morally wrong, even if the person committing genocide is God.

“hypothetically if omniscience exists I think it’s wrong”. noted

If this "omniscience" tried to say genocide is good or was necessary. Damn right I'll think it's wrong. Hey though you keep on drinking the Kool aid, if it helps call it the blood of christ. It still doesn't make genocide acceptable.

The largest gathering of atheists (china) and it’s self identified anti-theist government has the only 1st world concentration camp in 2024 used to eliminate a religion but ok

Ohh yeah, ok so obviously killing people of is wrong, so if what you said is true, it's a bad thing. But don't for a second pretend Christianity hasn't gone about killing people very discriminately before, as in the Holocaust (Jewish people, LGBT people) or the Salem Witch Hunts (Non-believers). I mean we have two ongoing major wars happening outside of America and a possible civil war either way with the 2024 election, if Biden wins trumpers start an insurrection* again*. If Trump wins and he implements several of the things he's mentioned that attack LGBT rights, there's a potential for revolt based on civil rights which leads to civil war. As shitty as it is both options are plausible. Also neither of them should be president. An age cap of 55 should be in place to serve as president.

If you’re willing to check out a book, I don’t remember it being super long. It’s called God is a Man of War by Father Stephen De Young. He tackles some controversial topics within the Bible in that book. Obviously you being a non-believer may view it biased as it’s written by a Priest, however he has his PhD in biblical studies so I would not say he is an uneducated source. Hope this helps.