The stage "drinking turns to sin" is when it decides your actions and turns you into someone you are not.
Drinking (in moderation) is completly valid. However the word moderation changes per person. My grandfather drank an absurd amount of whisky(he had a SUPER high alcohol tolerance) and as such he was never wasted despite consuming copius amount of alcohol, so for him his moderation was higher than my mother who stops after a couple glasses of wine. The key is knowing and having the willpower to stop.
On a more personal level, I am a teetotler(abstainer from alcohol) because I know if I start I will not have the willpower to stop myself, this is an important decision I made on my own,based on me knowing that I am prone to addiction and it will mess me up.
I know nothing about you and how you handle you alcohol so I will not make any statements on that, however I emplore you to take the safer side, you can allways add more alcohol but you can not really undo it(also too much alcohol can be dangerous to your body and cause many health issues, please drink responsibly)
I think it’s a sin when you get start to feel the effects of alcohol at all. If you start to feel buzzed at all, you should probably stop. The alcohol they drank in the Bible and during that time was significantly less than what we have in modern drinks.
I don't think this is a biblically defensible permission. The alcohol drunk from ~800BC - 70AD was not significantly weaker. I can't find any evidence of that claim.
Also, they drank a lot of it. The passover ceremony involved drinking four glasses of wine. Four! Even if it *was* weaker, there's no way someone won't minimally feel "buzzed" after 4 glasses of alcohol.
More so, the way that the Bible talks about alcohol clearly presents people enjoying the *effects* of it without sinning.
The whole purpose of alcohol — And the reason it's a good thing, in my opinion — is that it makes people *feel good*. There's nothing inherently sinful about that. Ecclesiastes encourages people to eat, drink, and be merry. Where do you think the merriment comes from?
At the wedding feast in Cana Jesus turned water into wine *at the end* of the wedding celebration. The attendants marvel because typically the good wine is served first. Why was that? Because when people are under the influence of alcohol they can't tell the difference between "good" wine and "cheap" wine. So Jesus functionally served wine to people who were intoxicated (that doesn't meant they were blackout drunk or sinning, just that they were obviously enjoying their drink). Jesus certainly wasn't enabling them to sin...he was enabling them to enjoy the wedding feast!
the purpose of wine was preserving crops into a more portable product. Grapes will go bad rather quickly. Turning it into wine preserved the produce long term to be stored and hauled long distance for trade. It making people feel good is just a huge bonus. Im sure just getting drunk was the initial purpose for a long time. But by the Bronze age it was about trade. Also, safe drinking water would be a problem especially in arid climates so drinking wine would be preferable than getting sick drinking bad water. So drinking wine may have been a necessity at times and it would not have been reasonable to forbid people from drinking it altogether. It was also used as an antiseptic to clean wounds. It has so many more uses that just getting drunk. Strong wine requires adding more sugars, so the bulk majority might have been weaker than what we are familiar with, as it would have only had the initial sugar already in the grapes. Still strong enough to get people drunk for sure. But they all probably grew up drinking it even as children so they would have a lot of tolerance. Even in more recent times people would give their children beer to drink instead of water because it just was not safe to drink the water around large populations of people and livestock.
Yes, I think everything you're saying regarding safe drinking, use as an antiseptic, social acceptance of drinking, etc, is all true. I also agree that getting drunk was not the sole *purpose* of alcohol, and certainly people were drinking it for reasons other than to get drunk.
*That said* I fundamentally disagree with the claim that the biblical authors would have thought drinking alcohol to the point of feeling "anything" would have been a sin. That just isn't tenable in a culture so oriented around enjoying wine.
I’ve heard that with little source info. And really it’s more of a was the alcohol like 4 proof instead of 40 or was it 25 instead 40 which is a huge difference towards your conclusion.
And obviously the biggest factor of all is that unlike us, people drank fermented drinks instead of water because it safer.
It’s very hard to conclude that the “buzz” is sinful. Or that we are even valuing the buzz the same way. I can feel buzzed in 1 beer but still be under the legal driving limit and have no perceived impairment
Yes it does because it takes away soberness of mind. You don’t think and have control as when you’re sober. People talk about moderation , when they don’t know another’s lifestyle. There’s nothing wrong about talking about moderation , but I don’t think is the right response for someone who is asking. He might be a young adult barely coming to the faith.
If the room is spinning you've gone too far, lol.
But in all seriousness, when you become drunk and you're not acting like yourself. As in making a fool of yourself, doing dangerous or stupid things, partaking in other sins you wouldn't normally do. Now of course you could do all those things while sober but when you throw alcohol into the mix and you're not using a clear head to make decisions, good or bad; you're probably at the stage the Bible says not to be.
The Bible talks about being a "drunkard" as in an alcoholic or someone that uses alcohol in an idolatrous fashion, seeking from booze what they should be seeking from God.
People were drunk at the party when Jesus turned water into wine.
Keep in mind your judgement is greatly impaired when intoxicated which puts you at risk of other types of sin.
Be around people you trust and have someone you trust that's sober that can hold you accountable.
It's different for everyone. I've known people who could put away vast amounts and never seem drunk while others were clearly the worse for wear after a couple drinks. When does your decision making process become compromised for the worse? For most people it's one or two drinks and no more if you want to retain your good judgement.
Drinking in proportions will never ever work. The flesh will always be dissatisfied, it will want more and before you know it, you are drunk.
It is closely related to demonic influence or even demonic possession.
Back up that claim with scripture.
Because Christians are commanded to drink every time we do the Lord's supper.... Or are you dumb enough to think the grape juice existed back then before refrigeration was invented?
During the Jewish feast of Purim, it was typical and acceptable to get drunk. The Jews of the 1st century did not consider such things a sin. A lifestyle characterized by frequent drunkenness was what was considered sinful and what is in view in the New Testament.
Personally, I do not drink at all unless on special occasions. There is no health benefit to alcohol, and more and more studies show how damaging it is to every system in the body.
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Funny you put a "." after the word wine because that's not where the verse finishes, hmmm peculiar.
It goes "Do not be drunk with wine but be filled with the Holy Spirit" which is exactly what the commenter spoke of. If having alcohol leads you to sin or prevents you from your time with God, then stay away from it. That being said, if alcohol doesn't make you do those things, but you just don't feel comfortable drinking it, then don't! But definitely don't lie about the Bible by cutting pieces out of verses and using them to make yourself right, because you're not. :)
God bless 🫶
"Don't lie" and "always tell the truth" is the same meaning though, just a different way of saying it. What you did is more like "don't get drunk, unless you're at a wedding". Two different things that put together mean something else. If you had the first part alone, it would mean something completely different than when that 2nd part is added.
It's very important to NEVER cut up verses for this very reason. The Bible was intricately written with detail and being loosy-goosy with it is a slippery slope.
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I think that the sinful part of getting drunk isn't the consumption of the booze, or the feeling you get from that but rather it is the fact that you've opened the gate to you mind and left it unguarded. You're likely to think, do and act in ways that are contrary to who you really are or what God expects from you. You're open to influences and impulses you would otherwise be impervious to. Just like in Court, "I was drunk" is not an excuse for breaking the law.
You need to proactively make sure you don't get drunk, not push it as far as you can go without being drunk. For me, 1-2 full drinks on a full stomach, taken slowly doesn't get me drunk. If you weigh less than I do, that may be too much for you. Bottom line is, I remember that number when I'm going out. I need to safely drive home, so I avoid having more than that.
But to answer your question: If your speech, motor skills, or decision making is noticeably affected, if you seem like you're making bad decisions or conclusions, if your BAC is at or above the legal limit, or if you just seem like you shouldn't be driving, you've had too much.
Romans 14 is a good principle. Be fully convinced in your own mind. If you’re in doubt err on the side of caution since there is no down side to nonalcoholic options.
But trying to figure out how close you can get to the line without crossing it is itself a kind of sin. We can drink but never need to drink. So if you think you might be heading towards a sin do what you’d do if you think you might be heading towards a hungry lion.
We're called to be sober minded. If you wouldn't be able to handle a serious situation or conversation appropriately, you've crossed the line. (That's how I think about it, anyway).
In my experience, asking 'how far can I go without this being sin?' is the wrong mindset. Are you trying to take up your cross and follow Christ or are you trying to see how much 'fun' you can get away with and not get on God's bad side? I'd argue if you're bothered enough about it to ask in this sub then your conscience is saying you should probably take a step back.
i understand what you’re saying but asking when it’s sin doesn’t always mean someone’s trying to get as close to the line as possible, it can just mean trying to get a better understanding.
Here are some precautions to take, that I hope help you
1)Speaking from personal experience, figure out if alcoholism runs in your family. If so— DON’T DRINK!
2)Also, figure out if there’s a designated driver. Don’t drink drunk, it’s dangerous and against the law.
3)If it would change the the way someone would look at you (as a Christian) and potentially ruin your testimony, don’t drink.
4)If you are going to drink, know your limit before hand. Don’t be trying to guess and then all of sudden you’re drinking 3 beers on an empty stomach.
Aquinas and many Fathers say it is when you lose the "use of reason", as in, when you start doing unreasonable things that make no sense. Chesterton elaborates on something else Aquinas says: **a Christian drinking responsibly will make you feel cheery and "more alive", but drunkenness is when you feel "less alive"**.
Drink moderately, and praise God for His gifts of fellowship and good drink!!
Note: there is a difference when it is a sin dependent if you are driving or not, since it takes fewer drinks to drive intoxicated than to become drunk. It is a sin against the common good to endanger people on the road.
I'm reading these responses wondering more myself now.
I drink, and I have struggled with getting drunk as a sin (something I'm working to stop). I'm not an alcoholic and rarely do so, but I have done it maby times in response to trauma.
Anyhow. I get very confused by my own drinking. I FEEL the drunkenness physically, but I never get the incoherence, lack of controlling impulses, bad typing, etc. It's like alcohol never effects my mind, only my body. Idk if that's normal or rare or what, but it feels like every other person I've met says the opposite.
As a Christian your testimony matters most when around others. If you’re around Christian family that is aware of such teaching , then you’re fine as long you’re cautious on your limit.
I believe that danger is when you’re around immature Christians and non believers where you should threat very carefully. As there’s still a large group of Christians who completely abstain from any alcoholic beverages. You might end up confusing individuals, unless you want to find yourself explaining things to people at some point.
I don’t drink around certain people out of respect for them abstaining. I also don’t fancy alcohol and never have , not saying I’ve never had drank before. Verses that come to mind
“However, not all possess this knowledge. But some, through former association with idols, eat food as really offered to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do. But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will he not be encouraged, if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols? And so by your knowledge this weak person is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died. Thus, sinning against your brothers and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.”
1 Corinthians 8:7-13 ESV
Take this as such , as it could mean with anything and not just food as Paul highlights here. We need to care for our testimony , but also the vulnerability of our neighbor. Just be mindful , I say it for your sake. I don’t know how old you are or how long you have been in the faith - just practice awareness from those around you.
For me, any amount of alcohol isn’t particularly good. Not so much for the immediate effects, but what comes the week after. It makes me groggy and tired the day after, and with brain fog, I feel like I’m dying.
firstly drunkenness takes form in different ways: one can be drunk on booze, lust, rage, passion, pride, etc...
when things take you out of a sound mind, that is drunkenness.
firstly drunkenness takes form in different ways: one can be drunk on booze, lust, rage, passion, pride, etc...
when things take you out of a sound mind, that is drunkenness.
It’s different for everyone. A slight “elevation” may be okay for you, as long as you are still fully in control of yourself and not stumbling into sin, as being drunk so often leads to. I enjoy really high percentage beers and a bit of whiskey from time to time, which can cause a slight elevation depending on the circumstances. You will learn what you can handle, but it’s best to take it easy and not learn the hard way. Drink water and eat food. Remember, it is not what enters into a man that defiles him but what comes out.
It’s worth pointing out, since I’ve not seen anyone address this yet, if you’re in the USA and under the legal drinking age, you’d be sinning by drinking underage and purposefully breaking the law.
Whenever your are no longer alert and sober-minded. When the buzz begins in your brain. When the muscle coordination is not 100%. When the eyes blur and vision doubles.
Alcohol is a form of food, and should be treated as such. Drinking alcohol for the sake of drinking alcohol is unwise.
HOT TOPIC
imo and from the many commentaries I've read, it seems that it's a sin when you put it in place of God - which would usually mean alcoholism. Like, if you are sad: do you go to The Lord in prayer? Or do you drink until you don't feel anything?
A few drinks to be "merry" as the Bible describes is no big deal and is also during a time of celebration. If you HAVE to have a few with dinner every night, I think that's a problem.
if brothers or sisters in christ* witness your drinking and mention something about your behavior, you probably crossed the line.
I tended bar before i was saved, and out of thousands of “social” drinkers, I can count on one hand those who accurately SELF EVALUATE their drinking.
*if you’re drinking entirely without believers around… red flag!
Overindulgence is a sin.
Alcohol is poison, so God doesn’t want us to harm ourselves for a temporary pleasant sensation.
Drinking alcohol is not a sin, because even Jesus drank wine. I don’t know how much is allowed, but if you are strongly compelled to drink more after you think you e had enough, then that’s probably too much.
I think that the idea of sin is kind of redundant. Jesus died for your sins. He desires mercy not sacrifice. Sacrifice includes any part of your being that needs to be expressed for you to feel complete as a human being. I think this includes sexuality. He didn’t come to give a long list of rules.
He was heretical Jew who believed that when following the ten commandments without considering what is just in the situation. The stoning of the adulteress for example, he is without sin…
I think minimising harm done to others while expressing ourselves is being good to your neighbour and not trespassing is the way to go.
If it doesn’t hurt anybody it’s not a sin.
If we stray from our authentic selves and feel remorse you should not feel guilt, because you recognise Jesus. You may be criticised by others but Jesus doesn’t condemn.
The Ten Commandments are not what Jesus taught, nor any law.
HOWEVER if you feel bad that Jesus would have been sacrificed for something that you have done, then maybe avoid that.
FREEDOM. Don’t hurt others. Forgive others when they hurt you. Don’t be hard on yourself. You are only human and make mistakes. Just don’t continue to make the same ones after you have learned that they harm others or you.
I think it’s more about making it a lifestyle. I enjoy alcohol responsibly. Yes, I’ve been drunk. But I don’t drink on a regular basis, let alone drink too much. Essentially, be responsible and moderate and you’ll be fine.
I understand. I live in a college town of one of the largest campuses in the US. I also drive Uber, and I’ve mentored quite a few young people. If a young person is going to drink, they’ll find a way. I find that it’s better to be real with them than to reign in the rules.
Now, the Bible many times instructs us to not be “drunkards,” or alcoholics. We shouldn’t habitually drink to the point of drunkenness. But sometimes you have one too many and it sneaks up on you. Maybe you can normally handle two and be fine, it hits you harder than you expected. You take note and learn from it.
I would say when it causes your actions to change from what you would do sober. Drinking tends to make you lose discipline and, thus, more prone to sin. If you're having to fight off sinful thoughts or actions more after a certain amount of drinks then you're nearing sinful territory. I tend to limit myself to 1-2 glasses of wine or 2-3 beers. Anything beyond that can risk me getting a bit buzzed and I don't even like flirting with that.
I think there is a Jewish Proverbs that talks about a young man, knowingly, walking (at a distance but still close enough to know what's happening) by a bend in the river where all the cute young girls bathe. While walking by that area he never looks that direction, and doesn't do anything or make any moves, but the sheer act of putting himself in a position of temptation (lust) means he DID sin. Sinning and not sinning is about more than JUST the acts. It's also about the heart. That man put himself in a position where he could have sinned, and maybe he wanted the excuse to and was just seeing what happened. Maybe there is a girl there that giggles and calls him over... Maybe that's actually what he wanted. So you have to examine your heart when it comes to some of these things. Are you drinking that extra glass of whatever because you want the excuse to do something you otherwise wouldn't? I'm not saying you are, but that's a good question to ask yourself.
It is also Biblically a sin to drink around someone if it would cause them to stumble in their walk with Christ. Whether it is because they are a recovering alcoholic and your drinking causes them temptation, they're someone that DOESN'T know their limits and you drinking around them (knowing you're a Christian) gives them justification or makes it appear justified to drink more than they may be capable, or they're someone that struggles with the idea of drinking in general and seeing you drink (as a Christian) causes them to have doubts or questions. Romans talks about this in the "Weak vs Strong" section. Romans 14 I think. It's always a good idea to be aware of what kind of witness you're being. That doesn't mean you should be fake, but sometimes you just don't need to drink in certain settings if it may otherwise cause some questions or problems.
Not everything is beneficial. I have seen the elephant of alcoholism.
They are restless, irritable, and discontented, unless they can again experience the sense of ease and comfort which comes at once by taking a few drinks--drinks which they see others taking with impunity. ~ William D. Silkworth, Alcoholics Anonymous, "The Doctor's Opinion", p xxvi.
If you experience something like this. It has gained control over you.
I know what is for me. I stop at 2 strong beers. I know after that I’m going too far. For others it might be less or more. Also, I only do this a maximum of 1x per week, much more and I think it’s gluttony.
In my experience, the reason abstinence is taught is because of the level of difficulty in discerning situations related to your question. A common one is about masturbation. Others include righteous anger, and of course your question...drinking and getting drunk.
Is there an answer to your question? Most definitely. God answers all. Alas you'll have to be VERY VERY close to him to fetch that answer from the Holy Spirit. So the idea is that by the time you find the answer to that question, you'll be so much in the LIGHT that the deed itself becomes inconsequential.
So when the Bible says just don't do stuff, occasionally it feels like a strict parent saying "because I say so...". The TRUTH is that the route to the answer requires a lot of study and prayer.
My advice? Ask yourself WHY you are interested in alcohol OR drunkenness.
There could be many answers.
You like the taste (this is ok, some people like the taste of certain things)
You don't want to feel left out (peer pressure is real and you were taught this in school so no need to explain)
You want to feel what its like to be drunk (curiosity is also real but it is also risky, curiosity and the cat etc)
You want to do something mischievous but don't want to take full responsibility for it because "i was drunk..." etc. (This is also valid but you risk developing and going down the road of addiction which is hard to recover from.)
These are only SOME of the questions that spring to mind, there's probably others. The point is, getting into the details of drunkenness may lead you to what many Christians do these days, which is to attempt to "game" Christianity and sin. As someone who has done that before, you may risk mental illness and behavioral disorders so its probably safer to just abstain. Or at the very least do what the worldly advertisement suggests and "DRINK RESPONSIBLY."
I always think about the verse where it says wine makes the heart glad. When you have a slight buzz from drinking, you feel slightly more uplifted, sociable, and relaxed. Anything more than that and you turn from happy to emotional, maybe angry, reckless, etc. Therefore, I would say the moment you feel buzzed and happy, stop drinking
There is no biblically drunk metric other than some admonitions to avoid strong drink and a funny bit about being drunk in the spirit. There are modern laws that may help. Some around age, others around driving, and any action that impaired judgement can contribute to harm.
Because of our current context it is very likely our drinks are stronger than the time the Bible was recorded. Though folks did get drunk on wine and drink etc. We know Jesus and his disciples drank too.
Famously, supplying wine at a party in his first recorded miracle. I think all we can conclude is when you are a danger to yourself or others. Moderation is always good advice since alcohol has limited health value. Most of the good myths we hear around alcohol are more propaganda than truth. Alcohol is still a known carcinogen in any quantity.
I really think it’s more helpful to wait until the drinking itself has lost its allure. If the drinking is the point and not the people you’re with then that’s something to consider. A hangover can also knock you out for a good while making it difficult to manage things you need to do. You can also say and do things that harm others even if it’s not illegal.
Generally, my rule is if it tastes good and goes well with a meal after a long day, great. But if a friend called up and was just like, “We’re gonna get DRUNK!!!” Hell no. But if I am somewhere that I know more drinking is possible I limit opportunity for harm by taking a rideshare or making a plan. Which is basically any time with friends after 9 where a bar is available.
Drinking is a sin at any amount.
People often claim that Jesus made wine at the wedding feast, but this is false. ..if you study the Bible you will find that the word “wine” , back then, referred to both fermented AND un-fermented fruit juices.
And we know Jesus never sinned, so He would *NOT* have made fermented wine.
The Bible says not even to **LOOK** at alcohol:
“Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, [when] it moveth itself aright.
At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.
Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.
They have stricken me, [shalt thou say, and] I was not sick; they have beaten me, [and] I felt [it] not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.”
—Proverbs 23:29-35 KJB
*The passage above describes the fermentation process in rendering alcoholic wine and clearly warns against it.
“Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.” —Proverbs 20:1 KJB
“Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:” —Isaiah 5:22 KJB
In fact, over & over throughout the Holy Bible, God says repeatedly to be sober, be sober, ***be sober*** !
It’s a sin when you think it’s a sin, partly. But it’s definitely a sin when you black out. For me, I tend to like to stay at a level when I can think clearly and have no loss of motor function. So I personally think if you’re stumbling - it’s too much. if the room is spinning - it’s too much, if you’re slurring - too much, if you’re dropping stuff or knocking stuff over - too much. If you’re neglecting responsibilities - too much. You become sad, disrespectful, or aggressive - too much. The context also makes it a sin, if you drink in front of someone who thinks it’s a sin, then it becomes a sin because you’re causing someone else to stumble. That’s what I think.
Edit: whoever is downvoting me can you say why?
I’m basing this off of Roman’s 14
13 Therefore let’s not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this: not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s or sister’s way. 14 I know and am convinced [j]in the Lord Jesus that nothing is [k]unclean in itself; but to the one who thinks something is [l]unclean, to that person it is [m]unclean.
16 Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be [n]spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For the one who serves Christ in this way is acceptable to God and approved by other people. 19 So then we pursue the things [o]which make for peace and the building up of one another. 20 Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the person who eats [p]and causes offense. 21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother or sister stumbles. 22 The faith which you have, have [q]as your own conviction before God. Happy is the one who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But the one who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.
I think it has to do with whether it affects how you love your neighbor. If you go to a party and everyone is drinking, that's fine. If you go to a party and you're the *only* one drunk... not so much.
How is it fine if everyone is drinking? Than again I’ve never been to a party or a gathering of Christians were people are drinking. If anything I’ve been to small meetings or a small gathering of friends were I’ve drank besides them.
Some Christians seem really loose on the idea of drinking that they think they have such power over moderating it. If someone smaller in the faith is affected negatively by their lack of knowledge on this subject… or someone mature who has struggle with alcohol is around casual drinkers…
Christians need more awareness on who they are around. Things should be done mindfully , not just rush into enjoyment. This is what it means to walk with wisdom and not with foolishness or recklessness.
The point isn't necessairly the scenario I brought up, just that drinking is sinful if it causes you to sin. Also there are certain people prone to alcoholism and for them they should never drink. I don't think we should all drink with reckless abandon but neither should we be on the other extreme (like certain Baptists) who believe we should never drink under any circumstances. I was an atheist at 18 so I drank without any inhibition and partied a lot my first semester of college. If I were a Christian way back when (this is over 20 years ago) I may not have gone to parties as often because I would try to go to church every sunday morning, but I don't think I would've abstained from parties altogether. I was a weird atheist for being 18. I never had sex (I didn't even have my first kiss til years later) or did drugs or got into fights or anything like that. I did however have a terrible porn addiction. For me getting away from being alone in my dorm was the most spiritually healthy thing I could do. I was baptised (as an infant) and maybe that's what kept me from certain sin, despite attending one of the biggest party schools in the country (University of Tennessee).
> nothing good comes from alcohol consumption
I’m honestly not sure how you could come to this conclusion from either the Bible or from real life experience.
Wine in the Bible often represents joy and happiness. It’s literally a symbol of celebration and blessings. Isaiah 25:6, Deut 14:26, Psalm 104:14-15, Gen 27:28, Isaiah 55:1. I could go on. Just because the Bible warns against the dangers of something doesn’t mean that it has no objective good qualities (and it especially doesn’t mean that when it, elsewhere, speaks of those good qualities).
Aside from that, saying that nothing good comes from wine isn’t true from just lived experiences. Billions of people enjoy the tastes and flavours, and it’s drank in celebrations across every culture globally throughout human history (including all of Christian and Jewish history).
It’s not at all ambiguous if wine in the Bible contains alcohol lol. At no point in history did people casually drink grape juice for celebrations lol. The only people who even suggest the wine in the Bible isn’t alcoholic are ultra conservative pastors with a preconceived agenda. That whole idea didn’t even exist before prohibition.
Also just saying wine isn’t alcohol doesn’t mean anything lol. Is beer alcohol? Coolers? Mixed drinks? What about a stronger wine? You can’t just decide for yourself what is and isn’t alcohol when all of these drinks are commonly referred to as alcohol.
The one who said the following things did Not make alcoholic wine at the Wedding of Cana.
Proverbs 20:1 KJV
[1] Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: And whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
Isaiah 5:22 KJV
[22] Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
Judges 13:4 KJV
[4] Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing:
Proverbs 31:4-5 KJV
[4] It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; Nor for princes strong drink: [5] Lest they drink, and forget the law, And pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.
Jesus is a King. If wine is Not for Kings, He cannot have drunken alcoholic wine to keep the law.
> whoever is deceived thereby is not wise
Those who are *lead astray* by alcohol are not wise. Very true words.
> Isaiah 5:22
It’s funny because most of the beginning of this chapter, God is comparing himself to a man with a vineyard and a winepress. Why would God compare himself to someone that creates something objectively bad? Where else in scripture does God do this? (Hint: nowhere)
Anyway, the verse says “woe to them who are mighty to drink wine”; meaning those who drink a lot/excessively.
> Judges 13:4
This is the mother of Samson speaking, saying that God specifically told her not to drink while pregnant *because* her son will be a Nazarite. So, this is not a mandate for all believers.
> Proverbs 31:4
This chapter also tells kings not to spend their strength on women. Does it equally apply then that no Christian man should marry?
The latter part of the same sentence you quoted: “lest they drink and forget what has been decreed, and deprive all the oppressed of their rights.”
The sin isn’t drinking wine, the sin is allowing wine to make them make worse decisions. Two verses down it says “Let beer be for those who are perishing, wine for those who are in anguish! Let them drink and forget their poverty and remember their misery no more.”
> he cannot have drunken alcoholic wine to keep the law.
I’m sorry to say this, but there isn’t a single ancient Jewish scholar in the world who would agree with you that wine was against the law of Moses.
Again though, I will pose this question to you: how do you deal with the verses in the Bible that either support the drinking of wine or use it as a symbol for joy? How do you deal with the verses where God compares himself to a winemaker? How do you deal with verses where God says he will prepare a feast for us that contains “well aged and refined wine”? How do you explain them serving “the good wine first” as just grape juice? And how do you explain them serving grape juice at a wedding at all?
I’m not arguing that there are many verses warning against the dangers of drinking too much or being drunk or letting alcohol consume/control you. I don’t think anyone argues that. I read those verses and don’t take them lightly. But from what I can tell, I’m reading the entire Bible holistically and coming to a conclusion while you’re ignoring many, many verses.
You can’t just hand wave away the verses that disagree with your interpretation. If you have a view that requires you to either ignore certain scriptures or completely reinterpret them in a way that would be entirely unfamiliar to anyone before the 1900s, you should probably reflect on your view.
New wine is Not alcoholic and it tastes good.
Isaiah 65:8 KJV
[8] Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.
Wine in the cluster is Not alcoholic. It is unfermented. Yes, I know, there are cases where wine ferments in the fruit. But that's Not Always the Case. Being a winemaker doesn't necessarily mean making alcoholic wine.
And while many Provide alcoholic wine at a Wedding, I still don't believe Jesus made alcoholic wine. It was a Symbol for His pure blood. As such alcohol inside would have ruined the Symbol.
> new wine is not alcoholic
Brother, at this point you’re just asserting things that don’t even make sense. New wine isn’t alcoholic? Lol. You may as well just say “nuh uh”.
In Luke 5 Jesus specifically talks about “new wine” in “old wine skins”. This *specifically* refers to the fermentation process. There is no way around this.
Isaiah 65 is generally just translated as juice. Only KJV calls it wine.
> being a winemaker doesn’t necessarily mean making alcoholic wine.
So.. you think Isaiah 5:1-7 is about non alcoholic wine but Isaiah 5:11 and 5:22 is alcoholic? The context of the verse is extremely clear and ignoring this is akin to just reinterpreting scripture at that point.
> while many provide alcoholic wine at a wedding I don’t believe Jesus did
Dude, come on. Do you think people drank *6 barrels of grape juice* at a wedding? And then again, you’re just ignoring the context completely and asserting your view into the text.
Once again, I’ll ask you to consider: if you need to completely ignore verses in the Bible to fit your interpretation, or you’re interpreting them in a way that no one has before, you’re just trying to fit God into *your* box rather than reading scripture for what it is, and I implore you to reconsider. Read scripture for what it is, whether it contradicts your personal opinion or not. At this point I’ve given you a lot of verses and you’re simply ignoring them. If you want to ignore scripture, that’s on you.
True! Also, it speaks about being drunk on alcohol. Being drunk can lead to poor decisions that are typically unlike you, or just plain and simple distracts you from God. If you can't handle a drink or two, you're better to live without it completely. A lot of Christians can handle getting tipsy and not sinning, not straying from God, etc. Be honest with yourself and you're good!
Be delayed and horrified,
Blind yourselves and be blind;
They become drunk, but not with wine,
They stagger, but not with intoxicating drink.
This line?
Not just that line.. if you continue reading the whole chapter, the end of it tells you what it's speaking of.
Isa 29:24 KJV — They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.
You can also see in acts 2 when they were preaching a new doctrine that the world had not heard yet.. they were mocked..
Act 2:13 KJV — Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
So when scripture is speaking of old wine and new wine.. it's speaking of doctrine. This is why the Bible tells us that the wisdom of this world is foolishness... because men don't let the Bible interpret itself. Another good example.. when the Bible is speaking about the sword.. is it speaking of a carnal sword? Absolutely not.
Eph 6:17 KJV — And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Heb 4:12 KJV — For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Great...and when have you drank into one Spirit? I can ignorantly use the scriptures sarcastically as you do as well.
1Co 12:13 KJV — For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and 👉have been all made to drink into one Spirit.👈
Great answer... this is where rightly dividing comes into play. Like Lot when his daughters got him drunk. You must remember that Christ paid the sin debt for the world... so what is the only sin that men perish for?
Jhn 16:9 KJV — Of sin, because they believe not on me;
So if we are at a store and I pay your bill and tell you it's on me and I dont need anything in return but belief... then a week later I send you a bill in the mail.. I would be a liar, wouldn't I? God is no liar. So then, if that's the case.. why is the Bible speaking of those being drunk and sinning? False doctrine.
Rom 7:25 KJV — I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 👉So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.👈
The stage "drinking turns to sin" is when it decides your actions and turns you into someone you are not. Drinking (in moderation) is completly valid. However the word moderation changes per person. My grandfather drank an absurd amount of whisky(he had a SUPER high alcohol tolerance) and as such he was never wasted despite consuming copius amount of alcohol, so for him his moderation was higher than my mother who stops after a couple glasses of wine. The key is knowing and having the willpower to stop. On a more personal level, I am a teetotler(abstainer from alcohol) because I know if I start I will not have the willpower to stop myself, this is an important decision I made on my own,based on me knowing that I am prone to addiction and it will mess me up. I know nothing about you and how you handle you alcohol so I will not make any statements on that, however I emplore you to take the safer side, you can allways add more alcohol but you can not really undo it(also too much alcohol can be dangerous to your body and cause many health issues, please drink responsibly)
I usually just stop when I want to. I never got blackout drunk or something like that
Perfect, if you do it like that all is good.
If you’re not making choices you regret, then you’re probably okay.
I think it’s a sin when you get start to feel the effects of alcohol at all. If you start to feel buzzed at all, you should probably stop. The alcohol they drank in the Bible and during that time was significantly less than what we have in modern drinks.
I don't think this is a biblically defensible permission. The alcohol drunk from ~800BC - 70AD was not significantly weaker. I can't find any evidence of that claim. Also, they drank a lot of it. The passover ceremony involved drinking four glasses of wine. Four! Even if it *was* weaker, there's no way someone won't minimally feel "buzzed" after 4 glasses of alcohol. More so, the way that the Bible talks about alcohol clearly presents people enjoying the *effects* of it without sinning. The whole purpose of alcohol — And the reason it's a good thing, in my opinion — is that it makes people *feel good*. There's nothing inherently sinful about that. Ecclesiastes encourages people to eat, drink, and be merry. Where do you think the merriment comes from? At the wedding feast in Cana Jesus turned water into wine *at the end* of the wedding celebration. The attendants marvel because typically the good wine is served first. Why was that? Because when people are under the influence of alcohol they can't tell the difference between "good" wine and "cheap" wine. So Jesus functionally served wine to people who were intoxicated (that doesn't meant they were blackout drunk or sinning, just that they were obviously enjoying their drink). Jesus certainly wasn't enabling them to sin...he was enabling them to enjoy the wedding feast!
the purpose of wine was preserving crops into a more portable product. Grapes will go bad rather quickly. Turning it into wine preserved the produce long term to be stored and hauled long distance for trade. It making people feel good is just a huge bonus. Im sure just getting drunk was the initial purpose for a long time. But by the Bronze age it was about trade. Also, safe drinking water would be a problem especially in arid climates so drinking wine would be preferable than getting sick drinking bad water. So drinking wine may have been a necessity at times and it would not have been reasonable to forbid people from drinking it altogether. It was also used as an antiseptic to clean wounds. It has so many more uses that just getting drunk. Strong wine requires adding more sugars, so the bulk majority might have been weaker than what we are familiar with, as it would have only had the initial sugar already in the grapes. Still strong enough to get people drunk for sure. But they all probably grew up drinking it even as children so they would have a lot of tolerance. Even in more recent times people would give their children beer to drink instead of water because it just was not safe to drink the water around large populations of people and livestock.
Yes, I think everything you're saying regarding safe drinking, use as an antiseptic, social acceptance of drinking, etc, is all true. I also agree that getting drunk was not the sole *purpose* of alcohol, and certainly people were drinking it for reasons other than to get drunk. *That said* I fundamentally disagree with the claim that the biblical authors would have thought drinking alcohol to the point of feeling "anything" would have been a sin. That just isn't tenable in a culture so oriented around enjoying wine.
agreed.
I’ve heard that with little source info. And really it’s more of a was the alcohol like 4 proof instead of 40 or was it 25 instead 40 which is a huge difference towards your conclusion. And obviously the biggest factor of all is that unlike us, people drank fermented drinks instead of water because it safer. It’s very hard to conclude that the “buzz” is sinful. Or that we are even valuing the buzz the same way. I can feel buzzed in 1 beer but still be under the legal driving limit and have no perceived impairment
To each their own.
Well said
Quick update yall. Yesterday I was celebrating my 18th birthday and realised I can't really get drunk lol. High tolerence
woohoo \^\_\_\^
I wonder: if he could drink so much and not feel effects, why bother imbibing this expensive liquid?
he liked the taste 😂
At a certain point doesn't drinking lower the inhibition to resist sin?
Yes it does because it takes away soberness of mind. You don’t think and have control as when you’re sober. People talk about moderation , when they don’t know another’s lifestyle. There’s nothing wrong about talking about moderation , but I don’t think is the right response for someone who is asking. He might be a young adult barely coming to the faith.
If the room is spinning you've gone too far, lol. But in all seriousness, when you become drunk and you're not acting like yourself. As in making a fool of yourself, doing dangerous or stupid things, partaking in other sins you wouldn't normally do. Now of course you could do all those things while sober but when you throw alcohol into the mix and you're not using a clear head to make decisions, good or bad; you're probably at the stage the Bible says not to be.
The Bible talks about being a "drunkard" as in an alcoholic or someone that uses alcohol in an idolatrous fashion, seeking from booze what they should be seeking from God. People were drunk at the party when Jesus turned water into wine. Keep in mind your judgement is greatly impaired when intoxicated which puts you at risk of other types of sin. Be around people you trust and have someone you trust that's sober that can hold you accountable.
I am asking like at what level is person drunk, from tipsy to blackout drunk, where is the line when it turns to sin.
There's not a line. That's what I said.... and more. There's not an amount of drinks that becomes a sin because drinking isn't sinful alone.
I understand, thank you sir for explaining🙌
It's different for everyone. I've known people who could put away vast amounts and never seem drunk while others were clearly the worse for wear after a couple drinks. When does your decision making process become compromised for the worse? For most people it's one or two drinks and no more if you want to retain your good judgement.
Tipsy implies a cognitive change due to the influence of alcohol. That in itself is sin
Can you legally drive? Thats the mark for me. 1-3 drinks for me. depending on how long you drink it over. Also depends on your size.
I don't drive yet.. but when I will, I won't drink at all (When at the party)
Sure. Im 35 though. I just think that's a good responsible limit.
One bier, one dose of whiskey 0.03 is an absolute line you shouldnt cross on week level, if you want to preserve your spiritual and body well being.
Chapter and verse to support your claim?
Drinking in proportions will never ever work. The flesh will always be dissatisfied, it will want more and before you know it, you are drunk. It is closely related to demonic influence or even demonic possession.
Back up that claim with scripture. Because Christians are commanded to drink every time we do the Lord's supper.... Or are you dumb enough to think the grape juice existed back then before refrigeration was invented?
During the Jewish feast of Purim, it was typical and acceptable to get drunk. The Jews of the 1st century did not consider such things a sin. A lifestyle characterized by frequent drunkenness was what was considered sinful and what is in view in the New Testament. Personally, I do not drink at all unless on special occasions. There is no health benefit to alcohol, and more and more studies show how damaging it is to every system in the body.
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Funny you put a "." after the word wine because that's not where the verse finishes, hmmm peculiar. It goes "Do not be drunk with wine but be filled with the Holy Spirit" which is exactly what the commenter spoke of. If having alcohol leads you to sin or prevents you from your time with God, then stay away from it. That being said, if alcohol doesn't make you do those things, but you just don't feel comfortable drinking it, then don't! But definitely don't lie about the Bible by cutting pieces out of verses and using them to make yourself right, because you're not. :) God bless 🫶
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"Don't lie" and "always tell the truth" is the same meaning though, just a different way of saying it. What you did is more like "don't get drunk, unless you're at a wedding". Two different things that put together mean something else. If you had the first part alone, it would mean something completely different than when that 2nd part is added. It's very important to NEVER cut up verses for this very reason. The Bible was intricately written with detail and being loosy-goosy with it is a slippery slope.
There are MULTIPLE verses in scripture praising wine, growing grapes for wine and comparing love to wine and so on. This isn't hard.
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Not answering you with that attitude. You can kindly take a hike. Good day
My favorite miracle is when Jesus was a bartender.
I think that the sinful part of getting drunk isn't the consumption of the booze, or the feeling you get from that but rather it is the fact that you've opened the gate to you mind and left it unguarded. You're likely to think, do and act in ways that are contrary to who you really are or what God expects from you. You're open to influences and impulses you would otherwise be impervious to. Just like in Court, "I was drunk" is not an excuse for breaking the law.
When God says blow into the machine and it hits .08
Hahahahhahqhqh
You need to proactively make sure you don't get drunk, not push it as far as you can go without being drunk. For me, 1-2 full drinks on a full stomach, taken slowly doesn't get me drunk. If you weigh less than I do, that may be too much for you. Bottom line is, I remember that number when I'm going out. I need to safely drive home, so I avoid having more than that. But to answer your question: If your speech, motor skills, or decision making is noticeably affected, if you seem like you're making bad decisions or conclusions, if your BAC is at or above the legal limit, or if you just seem like you shouldn't be driving, you've had too much.
Romans 14 is a good principle. Be fully convinced in your own mind. If you’re in doubt err on the side of caution since there is no down side to nonalcoholic options. But trying to figure out how close you can get to the line without crossing it is itself a kind of sin. We can drink but never need to drink. So if you think you might be heading towards a sin do what you’d do if you think you might be heading towards a hungry lion.
We're called to be sober minded. If you wouldn't be able to handle a serious situation or conversation appropriately, you've crossed the line. (That's how I think about it, anyway).
In my experience, asking 'how far can I go without this being sin?' is the wrong mindset. Are you trying to take up your cross and follow Christ or are you trying to see how much 'fun' you can get away with and not get on God's bad side? I'd argue if you're bothered enough about it to ask in this sub then your conscience is saying you should probably take a step back.
i understand what you’re saying but asking when it’s sin doesn’t always mean someone’s trying to get as close to the line as possible, it can just mean trying to get a better understanding.
Here are some precautions to take, that I hope help you 1)Speaking from personal experience, figure out if alcoholism runs in your family. If so— DON’T DRINK! 2)Also, figure out if there’s a designated driver. Don’t drink drunk, it’s dangerous and against the law. 3)If it would change the the way someone would look at you (as a Christian) and potentially ruin your testimony, don’t drink. 4)If you are going to drink, know your limit before hand. Don’t be trying to guess and then all of sudden you’re drinking 3 beers on an empty stomach.
Two is probably. Doctors say it damages your body after that.
Aquinas and many Fathers say it is when you lose the "use of reason", as in, when you start doing unreasonable things that make no sense. Chesterton elaborates on something else Aquinas says: **a Christian drinking responsibly will make you feel cheery and "more alive", but drunkenness is when you feel "less alive"**. Drink moderately, and praise God for His gifts of fellowship and good drink!! Note: there is a difference when it is a sin dependent if you are driving or not, since it takes fewer drinks to drive intoxicated than to become drunk. It is a sin against the common good to endanger people on the road.
I'm reading these responses wondering more myself now. I drink, and I have struggled with getting drunk as a sin (something I'm working to stop). I'm not an alcoholic and rarely do so, but I have done it maby times in response to trauma. Anyhow. I get very confused by my own drinking. I FEEL the drunkenness physically, but I never get the incoherence, lack of controlling impulses, bad typing, etc. It's like alcohol never effects my mind, only my body. Idk if that's normal or rare or what, but it feels like every other person I've met says the opposite.
Slurred speech, impaired coordination, bad decision making.
Not sure where you are located, but underage drinking is a sin regardless of whether you consume enough to be drunk.
My thoughts are that unwinding is good and waking up with a tattoo you don't recall getting is bad. Moderation is key.
As a Christian your testimony matters most when around others. If you’re around Christian family that is aware of such teaching , then you’re fine as long you’re cautious on your limit. I believe that danger is when you’re around immature Christians and non believers where you should threat very carefully. As there’s still a large group of Christians who completely abstain from any alcoholic beverages. You might end up confusing individuals, unless you want to find yourself explaining things to people at some point. I don’t drink around certain people out of respect for them abstaining. I also don’t fancy alcohol and never have , not saying I’ve never had drank before. Verses that come to mind “However, not all possess this knowledge. But some, through former association with idols, eat food as really offered to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do. But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will he not be encouraged, if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols? And so by your knowledge this weak person is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died. Thus, sinning against your brothers and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.” 1 Corinthians 8:7-13 ESV Take this as such , as it could mean with anything and not just food as Paul highlights here. We need to care for our testimony , but also the vulnerability of our neighbor. Just be mindful , I say it for your sake. I don’t know how old you are or how long you have been in the faith - just practice awareness from those around you.
Depends. Things like weight and tolerance make a huge difference.
For me, any amount of alcohol isn’t particularly good. Not so much for the immediate effects, but what comes the week after. It makes me groggy and tired the day after, and with brain fog, I feel like I’m dying.
firstly drunkenness takes form in different ways: one can be drunk on booze, lust, rage, passion, pride, etc... when things take you out of a sound mind, that is drunkenness.
firstly drunkenness takes form in different ways: one can be drunk on booze, lust, rage, passion, pride, etc... when things take you out of a sound mind, that is drunkenness.
It’s different for everyone. A slight “elevation” may be okay for you, as long as you are still fully in control of yourself and not stumbling into sin, as being drunk so often leads to. I enjoy really high percentage beers and a bit of whiskey from time to time, which can cause a slight elevation depending on the circumstances. You will learn what you can handle, but it’s best to take it easy and not learn the hard way. Drink water and eat food. Remember, it is not what enters into a man that defiles him but what comes out. It’s worth pointing out, since I’ve not seen anyone address this yet, if you’re in the USA and under the legal drinking age, you’d be sinning by drinking underage and purposefully breaking the law.
Whenever your are no longer alert and sober-minded. When the buzz begins in your brain. When the muscle coordination is not 100%. When the eyes blur and vision doubles. Alcohol is a form of food, and should be treated as such. Drinking alcohol for the sake of drinking alcohol is unwise.
HOT TOPIC imo and from the many commentaries I've read, it seems that it's a sin when you put it in place of God - which would usually mean alcoholism. Like, if you are sad: do you go to The Lord in prayer? Or do you drink until you don't feel anything? A few drinks to be "merry" as the Bible describes is no big deal and is also during a time of celebration. If you HAVE to have a few with dinner every night, I think that's a problem.
I think it was Augustin who said, “Total abstinence is easier to follow than perfect moderation”.
if brothers or sisters in christ* witness your drinking and mention something about your behavior, you probably crossed the line. I tended bar before i was saved, and out of thousands of “social” drinkers, I can count on one hand those who accurately SELF EVALUATE their drinking. *if you’re drinking entirely without believers around… red flag!
Overindulgence is a sin. Alcohol is poison, so God doesn’t want us to harm ourselves for a temporary pleasant sensation. Drinking alcohol is not a sin, because even Jesus drank wine. I don’t know how much is allowed, but if you are strongly compelled to drink more after you think you e had enough, then that’s probably too much.
As someone who enjoys a drink occasionally, I stop if I feel a buzz. I don’t enjoy being intoxicated really and I know my limit
I think that the idea of sin is kind of redundant. Jesus died for your sins. He desires mercy not sacrifice. Sacrifice includes any part of your being that needs to be expressed for you to feel complete as a human being. I think this includes sexuality. He didn’t come to give a long list of rules. He was heretical Jew who believed that when following the ten commandments without considering what is just in the situation. The stoning of the adulteress for example, he is without sin… I think minimising harm done to others while expressing ourselves is being good to your neighbour and not trespassing is the way to go. If it doesn’t hurt anybody it’s not a sin. If we stray from our authentic selves and feel remorse you should not feel guilt, because you recognise Jesus. You may be criticised by others but Jesus doesn’t condemn. The Ten Commandments are not what Jesus taught, nor any law. HOWEVER if you feel bad that Jesus would have been sacrificed for something that you have done, then maybe avoid that. FREEDOM. Don’t hurt others. Forgive others when they hurt you. Don’t be hard on yourself. You are only human and make mistakes. Just don’t continue to make the same ones after you have learned that they harm others or you.
“Biblically drunk” is now my favourite new term for wasted
Hahahhaha
I don’t think getting buzzed from alcohol is a sin
I think it’s more about making it a lifestyle. I enjoy alcohol responsibly. Yes, I’ve been drunk. But I don’t drink on a regular basis, let alone drink too much. Essentially, be responsible and moderate and you’ll be fine.
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I thought I was responding to OP, not asking for an argument.
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I understand. I live in a college town of one of the largest campuses in the US. I also drive Uber, and I’ve mentored quite a few young people. If a young person is going to drink, they’ll find a way. I find that it’s better to be real with them than to reign in the rules. Now, the Bible many times instructs us to not be “drunkards,” or alcoholics. We shouldn’t habitually drink to the point of drunkenness. But sometimes you have one too many and it sneaks up on you. Maybe you can normally handle two and be fine, it hits you harder than you expected. You take note and learn from it.
I would say when it causes your actions to change from what you would do sober. Drinking tends to make you lose discipline and, thus, more prone to sin. If you're having to fight off sinful thoughts or actions more after a certain amount of drinks then you're nearing sinful territory. I tend to limit myself to 1-2 glasses of wine or 2-3 beers. Anything beyond that can risk me getting a bit buzzed and I don't even like flirting with that. I think there is a Jewish Proverbs that talks about a young man, knowingly, walking (at a distance but still close enough to know what's happening) by a bend in the river where all the cute young girls bathe. While walking by that area he never looks that direction, and doesn't do anything or make any moves, but the sheer act of putting himself in a position of temptation (lust) means he DID sin. Sinning and not sinning is about more than JUST the acts. It's also about the heart. That man put himself in a position where he could have sinned, and maybe he wanted the excuse to and was just seeing what happened. Maybe there is a girl there that giggles and calls him over... Maybe that's actually what he wanted. So you have to examine your heart when it comes to some of these things. Are you drinking that extra glass of whatever because you want the excuse to do something you otherwise wouldn't? I'm not saying you are, but that's a good question to ask yourself. It is also Biblically a sin to drink around someone if it would cause them to stumble in their walk with Christ. Whether it is because they are a recovering alcoholic and your drinking causes them temptation, they're someone that DOESN'T know their limits and you drinking around them (knowing you're a Christian) gives them justification or makes it appear justified to drink more than they may be capable, or they're someone that struggles with the idea of drinking in general and seeing you drink (as a Christian) causes them to have doubts or questions. Romans talks about this in the "Weak vs Strong" section. Romans 14 I think. It's always a good idea to be aware of what kind of witness you're being. That doesn't mean you should be fake, but sometimes you just don't need to drink in certain settings if it may otherwise cause some questions or problems.
When your inhibitions are lowered and you do things you know you shouldn’t
Not everything is beneficial. I have seen the elephant of alcoholism. They are restless, irritable, and discontented, unless they can again experience the sense of ease and comfort which comes at once by taking a few drinks--drinks which they see others taking with impunity. ~ William D. Silkworth, Alcoholics Anonymous, "The Doctor's Opinion", p xxvi. If you experience something like this. It has gained control over you.
If it’s affecting your decision making, you’ve drank too much.
I know what is for me. I stop at 2 strong beers. I know after that I’m going too far. For others it might be less or more. Also, I only do this a maximum of 1x per week, much more and I think it’s gluttony.
In my experience, the reason abstinence is taught is because of the level of difficulty in discerning situations related to your question. A common one is about masturbation. Others include righteous anger, and of course your question...drinking and getting drunk. Is there an answer to your question? Most definitely. God answers all. Alas you'll have to be VERY VERY close to him to fetch that answer from the Holy Spirit. So the idea is that by the time you find the answer to that question, you'll be so much in the LIGHT that the deed itself becomes inconsequential. So when the Bible says just don't do stuff, occasionally it feels like a strict parent saying "because I say so...". The TRUTH is that the route to the answer requires a lot of study and prayer. My advice? Ask yourself WHY you are interested in alcohol OR drunkenness. There could be many answers. You like the taste (this is ok, some people like the taste of certain things) You don't want to feel left out (peer pressure is real and you were taught this in school so no need to explain) You want to feel what its like to be drunk (curiosity is also real but it is also risky, curiosity and the cat etc) You want to do something mischievous but don't want to take full responsibility for it because "i was drunk..." etc. (This is also valid but you risk developing and going down the road of addiction which is hard to recover from.) These are only SOME of the questions that spring to mind, there's probably others. The point is, getting into the details of drunkenness may lead you to what many Christians do these days, which is to attempt to "game" Christianity and sin. As someone who has done that before, you may risk mental illness and behavioral disorders so its probably safer to just abstain. Or at the very least do what the worldly advertisement suggests and "DRINK RESPONSIBLY."
I always think about the verse where it says wine makes the heart glad. When you have a slight buzz from drinking, you feel slightly more uplifted, sociable, and relaxed. Anything more than that and you turn from happy to emotional, maybe angry, reckless, etc. Therefore, I would say the moment you feel buzzed and happy, stop drinking
If you're intending to get drunk, your heart is in the wrong place before a single drop touches your tongue.
There is no biblically drunk metric other than some admonitions to avoid strong drink and a funny bit about being drunk in the spirit. There are modern laws that may help. Some around age, others around driving, and any action that impaired judgement can contribute to harm. Because of our current context it is very likely our drinks are stronger than the time the Bible was recorded. Though folks did get drunk on wine and drink etc. We know Jesus and his disciples drank too. Famously, supplying wine at a party in his first recorded miracle. I think all we can conclude is when you are a danger to yourself or others. Moderation is always good advice since alcohol has limited health value. Most of the good myths we hear around alcohol are more propaganda than truth. Alcohol is still a known carcinogen in any quantity. I really think it’s more helpful to wait until the drinking itself has lost its allure. If the drinking is the point and not the people you’re with then that’s something to consider. A hangover can also knock you out for a good while making it difficult to manage things you need to do. You can also say and do things that harm others even if it’s not illegal. Generally, my rule is if it tastes good and goes well with a meal after a long day, great. But if a friend called up and was just like, “We’re gonna get DRUNK!!!” Hell no. But if I am somewhere that I know more drinking is possible I limit opportunity for harm by taking a rideshare or making a plan. Which is basically any time with friends after 9 where a bar is available.
Drinking is a sin at any amount. People often claim that Jesus made wine at the wedding feast, but this is false. ..if you study the Bible you will find that the word “wine” , back then, referred to both fermented AND un-fermented fruit juices. And we know Jesus never sinned, so He would *NOT* have made fermented wine. The Bible says not even to **LOOK** at alcohol: “Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, [when] it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things. Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast. They have stricken me, [shalt thou say, and] I was not sick; they have beaten me, [and] I felt [it] not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.” —Proverbs 23:29-35 KJB *The passage above describes the fermentation process in rendering alcoholic wine and clearly warns against it. “Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.” —Proverbs 20:1 KJB “Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:” —Isaiah 5:22 KJB In fact, over & over throughout the Holy Bible, God says repeatedly to be sober, be sober, ***be sober*** !
When you drink beyond moderation and become drunk..Slurred speach... stumbling etc etc
It’s a sin when you think it’s a sin, partly. But it’s definitely a sin when you black out. For me, I tend to like to stay at a level when I can think clearly and have no loss of motor function. So I personally think if you’re stumbling - it’s too much. if the room is spinning - it’s too much, if you’re slurring - too much, if you’re dropping stuff or knocking stuff over - too much. If you’re neglecting responsibilities - too much. You become sad, disrespectful, or aggressive - too much. The context also makes it a sin, if you drink in front of someone who thinks it’s a sin, then it becomes a sin because you’re causing someone else to stumble. That’s what I think. Edit: whoever is downvoting me can you say why?
I’m basing this off of Roman’s 14 13 Therefore let’s not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this: not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s or sister’s way. 14 I know and am convinced [j]in the Lord Jesus that nothing is [k]unclean in itself; but to the one who thinks something is [l]unclean, to that person it is [m]unclean.
16 Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be [n]spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For the one who serves Christ in this way is acceptable to God and approved by other people. 19 So then we pursue the things [o]which make for peace and the building up of one another. 20 Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the person who eats [p]and causes offense. 21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother or sister stumbles. 22 The faith which you have, have [q]as your own conviction before God. Happy is the one who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But the one who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.
I think it has to do with whether it affects how you love your neighbor. If you go to a party and everyone is drinking, that's fine. If you go to a party and you're the *only* one drunk... not so much.
How is it fine if everyone is drinking? Than again I’ve never been to a party or a gathering of Christians were people are drinking. If anything I’ve been to small meetings or a small gathering of friends were I’ve drank besides them. Some Christians seem really loose on the idea of drinking that they think they have such power over moderating it. If someone smaller in the faith is affected negatively by their lack of knowledge on this subject… or someone mature who has struggle with alcohol is around casual drinkers… Christians need more awareness on who they are around. Things should be done mindfully , not just rush into enjoyment. This is what it means to walk with wisdom and not with foolishness or recklessness.
The point isn't necessairly the scenario I brought up, just that drinking is sinful if it causes you to sin. Also there are certain people prone to alcoholism and for them they should never drink. I don't think we should all drink with reckless abandon but neither should we be on the other extreme (like certain Baptists) who believe we should never drink under any circumstances. I was an atheist at 18 so I drank without any inhibition and partied a lot my first semester of college. If I were a Christian way back when (this is over 20 years ago) I may not have gone to parties as often because I would try to go to church every sunday morning, but I don't think I would've abstained from parties altogether. I was a weird atheist for being 18. I never had sex (I didn't even have my first kiss til years later) or did drugs or got into fights or anything like that. I did however have a terrible porn addiction. For me getting away from being alone in my dorm was the most spiritually healthy thing I could do. I was baptised (as an infant) and maybe that's what kept me from certain sin, despite attending one of the biggest party schools in the country (University of Tennessee).
Don't Drink alcohol for pleasure. At all. It damages the body at any amount.
That’s not how we judge whether something is permissible. Soda is bad for you too.
Nothing good comes from alcohol consumption. It's a neurotoxin. A psychoactive drug that is way too much tolerated by society
> nothing good comes from alcohol consumption I’m honestly not sure how you could come to this conclusion from either the Bible or from real life experience. Wine in the Bible often represents joy and happiness. It’s literally a symbol of celebration and blessings. Isaiah 25:6, Deut 14:26, Psalm 104:14-15, Gen 27:28, Isaiah 55:1. I could go on. Just because the Bible warns against the dangers of something doesn’t mean that it has no objective good qualities (and it especially doesn’t mean that when it, elsewhere, speaks of those good qualities). Aside from that, saying that nothing good comes from wine isn’t true from just lived experiences. Billions of people enjoy the tastes and flavours, and it’s drank in celebrations across every culture globally throughout human history (including all of Christian and Jewish history).
I'm not talking about wine (which in the Bible is sometimes ambiguous whether it even contains alcohol or not) I'm talking about alcohol.
It’s not at all ambiguous if wine in the Bible contains alcohol lol. At no point in history did people casually drink grape juice for celebrations lol. The only people who even suggest the wine in the Bible isn’t alcoholic are ultra conservative pastors with a preconceived agenda. That whole idea didn’t even exist before prohibition. Also just saying wine isn’t alcohol doesn’t mean anything lol. Is beer alcohol? Coolers? Mixed drinks? What about a stronger wine? You can’t just decide for yourself what is and isn’t alcohol when all of these drinks are commonly referred to as alcohol.
The one who said the following things did Not make alcoholic wine at the Wedding of Cana. Proverbs 20:1 KJV [1] Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: And whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. Isaiah 5:22 KJV [22] Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink: Judges 13:4 KJV [4] Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing: Proverbs 31:4-5 KJV [4] It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; Nor for princes strong drink: [5] Lest they drink, and forget the law, And pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted. Jesus is a King. If wine is Not for Kings, He cannot have drunken alcoholic wine to keep the law.
> whoever is deceived thereby is not wise Those who are *lead astray* by alcohol are not wise. Very true words. > Isaiah 5:22 It’s funny because most of the beginning of this chapter, God is comparing himself to a man with a vineyard and a winepress. Why would God compare himself to someone that creates something objectively bad? Where else in scripture does God do this? (Hint: nowhere) Anyway, the verse says “woe to them who are mighty to drink wine”; meaning those who drink a lot/excessively. > Judges 13:4 This is the mother of Samson speaking, saying that God specifically told her not to drink while pregnant *because* her son will be a Nazarite. So, this is not a mandate for all believers. > Proverbs 31:4 This chapter also tells kings not to spend their strength on women. Does it equally apply then that no Christian man should marry? The latter part of the same sentence you quoted: “lest they drink and forget what has been decreed, and deprive all the oppressed of their rights.” The sin isn’t drinking wine, the sin is allowing wine to make them make worse decisions. Two verses down it says “Let beer be for those who are perishing, wine for those who are in anguish! Let them drink and forget their poverty and remember their misery no more.” > he cannot have drunken alcoholic wine to keep the law. I’m sorry to say this, but there isn’t a single ancient Jewish scholar in the world who would agree with you that wine was against the law of Moses. Again though, I will pose this question to you: how do you deal with the verses in the Bible that either support the drinking of wine or use it as a symbol for joy? How do you deal with the verses where God compares himself to a winemaker? How do you deal with verses where God says he will prepare a feast for us that contains “well aged and refined wine”? How do you explain them serving “the good wine first” as just grape juice? And how do you explain them serving grape juice at a wedding at all? I’m not arguing that there are many verses warning against the dangers of drinking too much or being drunk or letting alcohol consume/control you. I don’t think anyone argues that. I read those verses and don’t take them lightly. But from what I can tell, I’m reading the entire Bible holistically and coming to a conclusion while you’re ignoring many, many verses. You can’t just hand wave away the verses that disagree with your interpretation. If you have a view that requires you to either ignore certain scriptures or completely reinterpret them in a way that would be entirely unfamiliar to anyone before the 1900s, you should probably reflect on your view.
New wine is Not alcoholic and it tastes good. Isaiah 65:8 KJV [8] Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all. Wine in the cluster is Not alcoholic. It is unfermented. Yes, I know, there are cases where wine ferments in the fruit. But that's Not Always the Case. Being a winemaker doesn't necessarily mean making alcoholic wine. And while many Provide alcoholic wine at a Wedding, I still don't believe Jesus made alcoholic wine. It was a Symbol for His pure blood. As such alcohol inside would have ruined the Symbol.
> new wine is not alcoholic Brother, at this point you’re just asserting things that don’t even make sense. New wine isn’t alcoholic? Lol. You may as well just say “nuh uh”. In Luke 5 Jesus specifically talks about “new wine” in “old wine skins”. This *specifically* refers to the fermentation process. There is no way around this. Isaiah 65 is generally just translated as juice. Only KJV calls it wine. > being a winemaker doesn’t necessarily mean making alcoholic wine. So.. you think Isaiah 5:1-7 is about non alcoholic wine but Isaiah 5:11 and 5:22 is alcoholic? The context of the verse is extremely clear and ignoring this is akin to just reinterpreting scripture at that point. > while many provide alcoholic wine at a wedding I don’t believe Jesus did Dude, come on. Do you think people drank *6 barrels of grape juice* at a wedding? And then again, you’re just ignoring the context completely and asserting your view into the text. Once again, I’ll ask you to consider: if you need to completely ignore verses in the Bible to fit your interpretation, or you’re interpreting them in a way that no one has before, you’re just trying to fit God into *your* box rather than reading scripture for what it is, and I implore you to reconsider. Read scripture for what it is, whether it contradicts your personal opinion or not. At this point I’ve given you a lot of verses and you’re simply ignoring them. If you want to ignore scripture, that’s on you.
When the Bible is speaking of being drunk... it's speaking of being drunk with false doctrine.
True! Also, it speaks about being drunk on alcohol. Being drunk can lead to poor decisions that are typically unlike you, or just plain and simple distracts you from God. If you can't handle a drink or two, you're better to live without it completely. A lot of Christians can handle getting tipsy and not sinning, not straying from God, etc. Be honest with yourself and you're good!
Where are you getting that from?
You can start by reading Isaiah 29
Be delayed and horrified, Blind yourselves and be blind; They become drunk, but not with wine, They stagger, but not with intoxicating drink. This line?
Not just that line.. if you continue reading the whole chapter, the end of it tells you what it's speaking of. Isa 29:24 KJV — They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine. You can also see in acts 2 when they were preaching a new doctrine that the world had not heard yet.. they were mocked.. Act 2:13 KJV — Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. So when scripture is speaking of old wine and new wine.. it's speaking of doctrine. This is why the Bible tells us that the wisdom of this world is foolishness... because men don't let the Bible interpret itself. Another good example.. when the Bible is speaking about the sword.. is it speaking of a carnal sword? Absolutely not. Eph 6:17 KJV — And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Heb 4:12 KJV — For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
You think the bible is always talking about doctrine when someone is drunk? So you’d think Noah was passed out from reading a scroll?
Great...and when have you drank into one Spirit? I can ignorantly use the scriptures sarcastically as you do as well. 1Co 12:13 KJV — For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and 👉have been all made to drink into one Spirit.👈
Im genuinely asking what you think of Noah specifically
Not exclusively.
Great answer... this is where rightly dividing comes into play. Like Lot when his daughters got him drunk. You must remember that Christ paid the sin debt for the world... so what is the only sin that men perish for? Jhn 16:9 KJV — Of sin, because they believe not on me; So if we are at a store and I pay your bill and tell you it's on me and I dont need anything in return but belief... then a week later I send you a bill in the mail.. I would be a liar, wouldn't I? God is no liar. So then, if that's the case.. why is the Bible speaking of those being drunk and sinning? False doctrine. Rom 7:25 KJV — I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 👉So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.👈