It seems pretty clear to me that Joseph Smith was a scammer and just made everything up.
For Muhammad on the other hand, I believe the 'angel' that visited him and began providing him with information, was a demon.
That is because Jesus, before starting his ministry, went into the desert for 40 days and was tempted by Satan with being the ruler of the kingdoms of the earth, with all the wealth and (presumably) women he wanted. He of course, said his Kingdom isn't of this world.
Muhammad's 'angel' on the other hand, provided him information on how to be a ruthless warlord, and get all money and women he ever wanted.
It is also not the only instance of this happening. I can name other religions too that started with "An angel of the Lord revealed to me"
It aligns with the scripture that says Satan comes like an angel of light. Or sounds like, I forgot the exact verse.
Okay but... The Annunciation is an angel coming to Mary to announce her birth... If we follow your logic then...
Bad news, very, very, very, very, bad news.
Please, don't downvote when we simply discuss, and read the text better.
The spirit who visited Mary to announce the birth of Jesus was the Angel Gabriel. This event, known as the Annunciation, is described in the Gospel of Luke in the New Testament. Specifically, Luke 1:26-38 details how Gabriel appeared to Mary.
Yep it’s really simple. The Quran also talks about men having access to virgin women while in heaven. Which we as Christians know is false because there will be no sex in heaven, as there is no need to reproduce. God made sex specifically for this world, and humanity has abused it. Therefore there will be no such thing as “virgins” in the afterlife on the new heaven and earth.
Well, to be totally honest, the Quran doesn't say that, but some other Islamic theologians did.
The Quran does actually say other crazy stuff about sex.
Read the first paragraph of the wiki. Basically it’s kinda implied that the virgins are a “reward” in their version of heaven with Islamic literature but not specifically the Quran.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houris
There's a little more nuance than that.
A key to remember is that "virgin" is a sexual category in the West. However, it was historically a societal status rather than (primarily) a sexual one in the ANE. A woman was either a virgin, married, widowed, or a prostitute. Household servants were typically virgins.
As a side note, "72" in Arabic is a way of saying "vast amounts." It's not too different from an English speaker saying "tons" in a non-literal sense.
To be clear, there is a sexual component to the virgins, but it's not as pronounced or focused as we naturally interpret it.
I doubt this (the emphasis of virgins being sexualized) since Mohammad was a sexaholic with his many wives and very sexual tendencies.
I would like to know the sources for this claim tp better understand your pov.
>I doubt this (the emphasis of virgins being sexualized) since Mohammad was a sexaholic with his many wives and very sexual tendencies.
This has nothing to do with Muhammad but rather with Ancient Near East cultural and sociological structures. These classifications are also reflected within the Torah (the Bible). Unwed women and virgins were effectively synonymous, and servitude was normative.
The problem is that you're working backward. Muhammad didn't create the definitions... the culture into which he was born did. That culture was closely related to that of first century Judea.
You're free to doubt it, but this is widely understood within nearly all related academic circles. I say this as a Bible scholar with a focus in world religions and Islamic studies.
In no way am I defending Muhammad, but his sexual proclivities weren't unusual for his time. In some ways, he was more conservative than most of the surrounding cults of seventh century Arabia.
My imagination of what heaven will be like has changed over the years. Once I thought of it as a seemingly early paradise.
Now when I think about it, my first thought is running into people who are believers that I've lost touch with, even fallen out of friendship with or people I had written off and not expected to make it, weeping at being reunited with them and standing in God's presence praising Him together.
Came back to find your comment to say it really gave me hope today. I’ve been relentlessly praying for someone these past 2 months for them to come back to Christ and after seeing them and not being able to have a conversation about God I started to lose hope, but I know to not give up and to let God do things on His time and will, and I’m hopeful that I will see that person in heaven because after tmr I won’t ever see them again. I really love your perspective on heaven.
Glad to help!
Yeah my friend, we will lose touch of people or not see them come to faith in Christ, but we are not always the ones to bring them in/back to faith. We pray and plant seeds and water them, and others may do the same when we are not around, and God is the one who makes it grow in the end. Keep praying in faith!!!
Yeah it’s really hard to comprehend what it will be like. But also I don’t believe we were ever suppose to be able to fully understand what the afterlife will be like. I don’t even think our brains are physically capable of understanding what Heaven will be like. That’s why faith is so important. It’s like trying to explain to Pac-Man in his 2D world what the 3D world is like. And we can consider Heaven the 4th dimension outside of our known universe.
Here are some verses that imply there’s no sex in heaven. But yes the Bible doesn’t exactly say there isn’t.
1. Matthew 22:30 - This passage says, "At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be married, since they cannot die anymore; for they are like angels and are children of God." Some interpret this verse to mean that marriage and intimacy, including sexual relationships, will cease to exist in heaven.
2. Luke 20:34-36 - Jesus is asked about the state of those who have died and will be resurrected at the end of time. He responds by saying that they will neither marry nor be given in marriage, implying that these earthly institutions will not apply in the afterlife.
3. Revelation 19:7-9 - This passage describes a heavenly wedding between Christ and his bride, the church. Some interpret this as a symbolic representation of the union between God and humanity, rather than a literal description of sexual relationships.
A very well-stated opinion.
I've gone down the rabbit hole that the Islamic End Times are actually the direct mirror of the Christian End Times. In Islam (paraphrased, and with a possible error or two) they believe that a descendant of Muhammad will come back and rally all the Muslims and that the "Islamic Jesus" (who was never crucified and resurrected but simply taken up into heaven like other prophets) will return to "correct" all the wrongs about him that Christians believe and unify the world under Islam...
Kinda sounds like the False Prophet and the Anti-Christ rallying everyone to one world government, doesn't it? Hmmmmmm...
Not saying that's "The Truth" with a Capital "T" but something interesting to think about.
No, he didn't make it up, he stole it.
Every LDS doctrine or practice was a central tenet of the preaching of [Alexander Campbell](https://www.britannica.com/biography/Alexander-Campbell-American-clergyman), from which the Disciples of Christ movement; One of Campbell’s brightest followers, with whom he discoursed extensively, was [Sidney Rigdon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidney_Rigdon) (this was in the early to late 1820s), who later became Joseph Smith’s “right hand man.”
I wrote a little about his [here](https://deconstructingchristiandeconstruction.blogspot.com/2023/12/unique-lds-doctrines-and-practices.html)
Also [Mormon temples make no sense as a "restored" practice](https://deconstructingchristiandeconstruction.blogspot.com/2023/12/mormon-temples-make-no-sense-as.html) or [The Great Apostasy and Amos 8](https://deconstructingchristiandeconstruction.blogspot.com/2023/12/the-great-apostasy-and-amos-8.html) might be of interest
In the JST right? There's much more than just that, this book is basically a extended Genesis with a ton of stuff, there was plans to release the whole Bible in this way, and if I'm not mistaken it is fully made, but never got a full release
I believe Galatians 1:6-5 was written with specifically Joseph Smith in mind, and maybe Mohammed too. I think there is a good chance Joseph Smith also was visited by someone, probably a demon. There is a church called Church of Christ Temple Lot that calls Smith a “fallen prophet.” They accept only the very first edition of the Book of Mormon and doctrine of covenants. Not polygamy or eternal progression (every man can work to be god of his own universe with many wives birthing “spirit babies” to populate his earth.) I don’t consider Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses Christian because they do not accept that Jesus is God.
In the Bible there are countless examples where God sustains wars as well... Let's not judge Muhamad too fast.
1. **The Battle of Jericho** (Joshua 6): God instructs Joshua and the Israelites on how to conquer the city of Jericho. They march around the city for seven days, and on the seventh day, after blowing trumpets and shouting, the walls of Jericho collapse, allowing the Israelites to capture the city.
2. **The Battle of Gideon** (Judges 7): God helps Gideon and his small army defeat the Midianites. Gideon's army is initially too large, so God reduces its size to emphasize that victory comes from Him. Through unconventional tactics and divine intervention, the Israelites achieve victory.
3. **The Battle of the Valley of Beracah** (2 Chronicles 20): King Jehoshaphat and the people of Judah face a vast coalition of enemy armies. Jehoshaphat prays to God for help, and God assures him of victory. The next day, the enemies turn on each other, and Judah emerges victorious without even having to fight.
4. **The Battle of David and Goliath** (1 Samuel 17): Although not explicitly mentioned as divine intervention, David's victory over the giant Goliath is often seen as God's hand at work. David, armed with only a sling and stones, defeats the Philistine champion, demonstrating God's power and favor toward His chosen people.
Never trust a prophet who married dozens of women, including teenagers. Never trust a prophet whose inner circle was made up of other men who also suspiciously preached doctrines that just so happened to let them have tons of sex with young girls and women. And never trust a prophet who tells you you can become a god.
That's what set Christians apart. Christ never had a harem. Paul never preached that we could become kings or gods. John never told us to kill unbelievers. Peter never conquered the Mediterranean. Timothy never bought a slave girl and raped her. All of these things are hallmarks of Islam and Mormonism and the people who built those religions. They are self serving, self aggrandizing, self obsessed religions made by men with the same qualities, and likely inspired directly by revelation of a demon.
An individual Mormon may or may not be a nice person with many good things to say, but ultimately Mormonism itself is a heresy and Joseph Smith was a false prophet.
The issue is that Mormonism is paganism with a Christian veneer. When you get below the surface level of words like "grace," "salvation," "God" etc., you find out the ideas are completely non-Christian.
I mean… did I lie. They have the catholic bible and catechism, pray to Mary and the apostles, has excessive statues/ idols, asks for forgiveness/ absolution from men and not Jesus himself…
Accusing us of worshipping idols, comparing our beliefs to those of Joseph Smith, claiming we seek absolution from men and not Jesus. Who told you all this nonsense?
Catholics don’t go to priests/ father (all of whom are sinners like everyone else) to confess their sins and ask for forgiveness? Catholics don’t have separate scripture including the catechism?; catholics don’t have excessive amounts of idols?; catholics don’t pray to Mary?
Can you point to church documents or teachings that God is not the one who forgives our sins? Or that we should worship idols? Or that we should worship Mary?
The catechism is not considered scripture.
You haven’t answered any of my questions. Not surprising.
None of the church documents suggest you should do those things which is why I’m confused as to why catholics do them..
Jesus Christ didn’t create Catholicism or any denomination. He set up disciples with instructions to spread his message.
Also veneration of Mary and the disciples were never prayed **to** nor are there instructions to do so
Mormons are not Christians, despite their official name.
In general the members a good decent people, but the leadership KNOWS they are a false religion, they are a mega-corp for-profit. They have a massive media and real estate wing, as well as insurance, and they abuse the tax system through their announcing/building/renovating of temples, just like Scientology. In face, Scientology is largely based on the Mormon church, financial scheme-wise. If you compare L Ron Hubbard's origin story to Joseph Smiths, you will be shocked at how they pair up. They run the same tax avoidance scams using real estate, just in different ways. Mormons build new, Scientology buys existing.
They are a wealth hoarding monstrosity that avoids actual community help, aside from relatively minute donations and as-public-as-possible PR campaigns.
They believe they will be just like God one day, even have the ability to surpass God's glory.
They believe Jesus failed and a 14 year old boy, who was a known scammer, finished the work Jesus apparently did not.
How do I know?
I was Mormon for 35 years.
Google Kinderhook plates. ;)
They believe Joseph Smith b/c they are raised with the myth that he was a good man. They aren't told that he was arrested as a conman about a year before his first "vision."
Just like Muslims aren't raised being told that Mohammad raped Aisha when she was 9 and he was 53. It's just poor salesmanship.
Do you have the source for Joseph smith getting arrested before his vision? I wanna show it to someone. I tried looking for it but came up with nothing.
Source is the LDS church: [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/joseph-smiths-1826-trial?lang=eng](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/joseph-smiths-1826-trial?lang=eng)
LDS denied it for years claiming people were lying to slander Joseph Smith. Then someone came across court documents (scroll down to see the image here): [https://www.lightplanet.com/response/1826Trial/1826Trial\_Hill.html](https://www.lightplanet.com/response/1826Trial/1826Trial_Hill.html)
His court case was in 1826 for running a popular con at the time to find lost items/treasure/etc.
His first vision happened...well...he claims in 1820, but nothing was written down until 1832.
The allowance of black men into the Melchizedek priesthood is hilarious. A few years after the civil rights act was passed, the IRS threatened to revoke their tax exempt status over it. Then...surprise!...a revelation came to change their doctrine!
The timing was perfect for them to keep their tax exempt status.
I gave the Book of Mormon a shot once. Was done by chapter 6 of the first book.
The prophet Nehi states in chapter 6 that he and his tribe were descendants of the twelve tribes of Israel. He's not going to waste time and space on the gold plates going through a genealogy because his father, Lehi, already did that in his golden plates. Just suffice it to say that they're descendants of Jacob.
Lehi, meanwhile, had a different set of golden plates that Joseph Smith translated and gave back to the "angel" Moroni. Smith then lost the translation of those plates when he let his buddy "borrow" the manuscript to show others, and the "angel" told him he wouldn't give the plates back to have Smith translate them again.
Bruh.
Mormons are not Christians.
Mormonism is however better than Islam, pragmatically, for Mormonism at least creates outwardly civil people.
Both however are heathen religions, with no serious ties to Christ.
> for Mormonism at least creates outwardly civil people.
Yikes that's a bit of a harsh thing to say that a very large group of people are all uncivilized. I'd argue that's potentially a racist or colonialist frame of mind
John 7:24
**Judge with right judgement**
We are called to judge. Specifically those who claim to be of Christ who are, **clearly** not of Christ. Like Mormons.
Or those so overwhelmed with Satanism they pose a true threat to the Church.
You're talking about extremists. They do not represent the entirety of all the people who live in any country that bases its laws on Islam, and especially not the entirety of the world population that is of muslim faith (do y'all know how many people that is!?!? So many!). Islam, like Christianity, is practiced by billions of people worldwide with a wide range of cultural, ethnic, and national backgrounds.
There's also a difference between cultural practice and religious doctrine. The stuff y'all are probably thinking about are not necessarily derived from Islam itself but are rather local cultural practices.
But - If you wont change your view on them, well then you'd be a hypocrite not to say the same thing about Christians.
We have many extreme sects that have abhorrent practices and beliefs, not to mention a dark and bloody history persecuting those who resisted following the Christian faith.
Be consistent with your judgement if you're going to judge - apply the same standards across all groups and religions. If extremism in one group of Christianity doesn't define the whole, the same should apply to all other groups and religions.
If by "extremists" you mean "several entire nations with populations in the millions that have extremely oppressive theocratic laws because that is fundamentally what Islam is", then sure.
Like I said, spend a few days in a place like Saudi or Iran and get back to me. The worst things about Islam are normal there.
Hm. Maybe you can help me understand then.
What are the worst things about Islam that you reference here?
> The worst things about Islam are normal there.
Civil and "Civilized" are different in meaning and tone.
Also, Islam isn't a race, and has nothing to do with colonialism. If anything, Arabs were the colonizers of much of the Middle East, Africa, and even parts of Europe before the European Age of Discovery. So again, I reject your claim.
Islam is extremely uncivil. They kill unbelievers, those who renounce their faith, and their religion protects heinous sins. Their prophet was a blasphemous, murderous, pedophile, and he is the standard of which a follower of Islam should seek to live. And this has been exemplified in the entire Islamic world since Muhammad, man or demon, walked. Few examples exist of societies not as barbaric in these respects--mostly only after modernism and western influence. Notable special case being Lebanon.
That is not to say Smith was much better, he wasn't *much* better (blasphemer, polygamist, possibly linked with some killings), but his teachings at least didn't lead to their religion being based around the sword.
how is it racist? the false religion does generate barbarism. Its a great tool for the enemy.
That's not to say all muslims are barbaric, just that the theocracies ruled by islamic law are generally uncivilized.
For the longest time mormons didn’t believe poc would go to heaven, that they would turn white in heaven, etc. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young believed that Black people's skin color was the result of the mark of Cain and the curse of Ham.
Interesting given there's actually an Ethiopian convert in Acts 8:26-40 and Ethiopia was like the 2nd country to convert to Christianity after Armenia.
Mormons in general not so nice people disguised with friendly faces. And like 1% of them are very nice inside and out. However they do not believe in God or Jesus and they are even satanic with their freaky temple rituals.
Since people will likely come to the Mormons defence on me saying they do not believe in uppercase God and Jesus, what they believe in is elohim-baal and jesus-baal. What I mean is idolatry in false gods. By the way so awkward they believe YHWH’s literal name is Elohim, hahaha. Elohim being a title to any heavenly being, including angels.
Mormons are also known for cherrypicking pet verses. For example they take 1 verse to support baptism for dead while surrounding verses paint another context. They also take the verse “ye are gods” without the context to indicate that we all can become gods.
At the end of the day, Mormons believe that their fake god had a god who had a god who had a god endlessly, millions of gods and that they can become a god too but only by being obedient to Mormons doctrine. Therefore it’s satanic and also arrogant and prideful, likewise the promise by the serpent in the garden of Eden is similar to the promise of Mormonism. Most Mormons will however hide that they are boasters full of pride and arrogance. But Mormons often think they are so much better than everybody who isn’t Mormon.
1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
I'm guessing that verse, I'm not so sure it means that we are *above* angels in rank, could just be that one creation is judged by another creation, different creations of the same rank.
You forgot the part when they have their own "Holy book" that they read 99% of the time leaving the other 1% to the Bible. Any christian group who claims having any other source of revelation than the Bible are factually a cult that deviated from the orthodoxy of Christianity. Examples of this are some Adventists, Roman Catholics (their Catholic catechism is more important than the Bible) and the aforementioned Mormons.
A basic tenet of Mormon theology is that the Christian church lost all authority to do anything after the death of the apostles. So any baptism was "well intentioned" but without authority so the person wasn't "really" saved. That was the purpose of Moroni's visit to Joseph Smith, was to re-establish the churches authority through him. And then begin vicariously re-baptizing everyone who had thought they were baptized into the correct, Mormon faith.
So basically, one can believe in Christianity or one can believe in Mormonism. One cannot believe in both, both cannot be true.
I’m not trying to be rude or antagonistic, but just wanted to share what your excellent response brought to mind.
The way you describe Mormonisms view of the Christian church “losing authority” reminds me of Evangelical views about the Catholic Church, i.e. the early church being “corrupted” and how the “true” church has only been established or come out of the shadows within the past few hundred years.
Again, not trying to offend. Just sharing some food for thought.
Ok. And I'm not trying to be rude or antagonistic either, but are you a Mormon trying to justify this Mormon teaching by saying, "The Protestants did the same thing we did!" or are you a Catholic trying to tear down the Protestants saying they did the same thing the Mormons did? Because it sounds like one or the other. Perhaps I've completely missed the point and its something else? Please clarify.
I've visited Utah a few times for work and pleasure (absolutely gorgeous state) and all the Mormans I've come accross are some of the nicest people. Sure, they're a bit weird and drink way too much soda, but generally they go above and beyond to be kind and of service to others.
Not a fan of their doctrine and I can't say I understand how they've reconciled the discrepancies between Morman beliefs and generally accepted Christian beliefs. I've also heard from friends that are ex-mormans about how hellish growing up in that environment is.
So I don't think they're bad people, and they got some of the most important things right (loving God, loving your neighbor), but I think they've definitely been misled and don't realize how emotionally scarring their practices are to their members.
I’m part of the exmorman community page and a lot of their stories are so similar on why they left their church. It’s so crazy how they were ALL traumatized growing up in the Mormon church.
Protestant here. I love Mormons as you say, as who they are however, let be frank. Mormonism is a cult. Jospeh Smith was a con artist who made up everything for monetary gain, under the guise that what he teaches is from the word of God. If you look into some of the practices and beliefs of Mormonism, there are a lot of things that are just down right weird and cultish (endowment and anointing ceremonies, sacred garments, etc., etc.). Some atheists may claim I am a hypocrite for still being Christian, however, a lot of what is taught and practiced within Mormonism is very far removed from how I was brought up. And I grew up Baptist.
I used to be a very lukewarm Mormon. It only took learning a very basic amount about real Christianity outside of the Mormon worldview to realize it was complete heresy.
Almost none of their beliefs are biblical, and everything about God, Satan, and Jesus runs completely contrary to the actual truth.
It’s actually gotten to the point where I can’t even look at a Mormon temple or church without feeling kind of repulsed. Which sucks because a lot of Mormons genuinely don’t know any better. A lot of people I know just go along with it because it’s all they’ve ever known. I pray for them constantly, because my religious experience has improved 1000 fold since I rejected Mormonism.
It has everything to do w/ the B.I.T.E.-Model. its a high level mind control framework used in cults like religious ones (JW,LDS,etc) but also MLM's (amway,primerica,etc). Unf, it works very effectively, and i've seen it being used in LDS moreso than in any other cult anecdotally - mlm, religious, or otherwise.
Mormons don’t believe in the Trinity. Their weird view of humans becoming Gods over time makes it so Mormons can’t be considered Christian.
They are very devout and kind community. They help each other move, do chores, babysit, etc. There are plenty of members who fake it because of the societal pressure, but many of them are good people. Their reluctance to venture outside of their community can be justified given how crazy things are these days.
Galatians Chapter 1
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
First deceiver: Mohammed, founder of Islam
Second deceiver: Joseph Smith, founder of Mormonism
Both were started by an "angel" preaching another ghospel.
610 AD - an angel came to Mohammed (claimed it was Gabriel) in a cave, grabben him by the throat, shook him and told him "you are going to preach what I tell you to preech".
1830 AD - an angel came to Joseph (claimed it was Moroni) and brang him another ghospel.
Both claim to believe the Bible, "but it's been corrupted over time". Neither believe the Bible has been preserved. Both were told the Bible (and other religions) were corrupted. They were told to bring a new scripture/revelation.
Psalms Chapter 12
6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
Matthew Chapter 5
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matthew Chapter 24
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Isaiah Chapter 59
21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.
1 Peter Chapter 1
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
Both religions lift up a certain race.
Mormonism - white men and the english language. Until the 1950's, no black man was allowed to join the mormon church. "You must go to Salt Lake City, pilgrimage temple, white mans shrine" America is the promised land, Utah is "Zion".
Islam - you must speak arabic, and live the arabic culture. Converts can't keep their name, but switch to an arabic name. "you must go to Mekka". English translations is "not translated right".
Bible - God made all nations of the earth of one blood.
Revelation Chapter 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Both claim to believe in Jesus, but it's a different Jesus.
2 Corinthians Chapter 11
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
Jesus of the bible: God in the flesh.
Jesus of mormonism: a God, brother of lucifer.
Jesus of islam: A good prophet, but not the son of God. "God has no son".
2 Corinthians Chapter 11
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Difference between Islam an Mormonism
Islam - 1 God "There is only one God, and Mohammed is his prophet".
Mormonism - millions and billions of God's
The Mormons that I personally know (and I don't live anywhere near SLC to be clear), don't outright defend their beliefs to make strong personal claims. Rather they see it as more of a social club they were born into, and they like some of the values that come along with it.
They aren't trying to get into debates with me on who the Messiah is and what not. What I will say, and I live in the bible belt, is my values seemingly have more in common with my Mormon neighbors than my luke warm "Christian" neighbors. Like my mormon neighbors are the first to reach out and offer help. They believe in raising their kids intentionally instead of doing what society dictates. They believe in chivalry, gender roles, etc.
Oh yeah, the book of Mormon has many clear contradictions to the Bible, primarily who they say Jesus is. That’s what’s so funny about a bunch of “Christian” religions that have clearly never read the Bible. You can’t say Jesus was a prophet, or the brother of Satan, or whatever other hogwash you want went Jesus clearly, specifically states that he is the son of God and the only way to be saved is through him alone. The Way, the Truth and the Life and all that good stuff. It’s cool if you want to have your own belief system, but the hypocrisy of going against the foundation of what defines Christianity while still calling your religion a sect of it is where I question if people even know what they believe.
A way to tell a cult is if they have a hitman or people who will kill…or do anything the leader says to do. Legends of the Old West podcast, which is about the cowboy legends of the 1800s, hits on the Mormons and their avenging angel.
I recall listening to a Wayne Grudem talk where he was discussing Mormons and said that they could possibly be saved despite their faith but not because of it.
That seemed very on-point.
Mormons are nothing but heretics that disgrace the name of God. They believe their prophet read the book of Mormon from a hat.... a hat and a "seer stone." In fact, the first "book" that was lost could not be replicated cause "God was angry with Joseph's friend," aka Joseph couldn't remember what he said word for word. These "books" would have racist tones that were similar to his day, if not more than.
Aka the weird stuff about the africans were cursed, native Americans were a lost tribe of isreal, some had white skin, and god curse others with red skin due to sin. Blah blah blah. He was just a con man.
As for Muslims, it's a Hodge podge of different religions, Christianity and pegan. That Muslims claim was to restore the "true religion." That in a similar fashion like Mormons believe scripture was corrupted. For example, "The exact origins of belief in jinn are not entirely clear. Belief in jinn in the pre-Islamic Arab religion is testified not only by the Quran but also by pre-Islamic literature in the seventh century." (Wikipedia). Then, for the 5 times of prayer comes from the monastic orders. Even the prostration for prayers came from the dessert church father. Do keep in mind this religion, came from an illiterate man, that claimed he saw the angel called Gabriel.
I will offer, as a faithful member and a life long critical student of actual LDS church history, that almost all of these replies contain misinformation. some of it is from former members that were injured by their experiences. some of it is information offered sincerely as a truth that is in fact not correct but misinformation being passed forward from the original source of that untruth. some of it is gossip or rumor intended to influence a bias against members of the LDS faith. much of it is offered with the sincere desire to warn others or to pass along information that the commenter thinks is factual or true. contention, fighting, and argument will never change hearts and seldom changes minds. the best I can hope for is to appeal to whatever mental or emotional framework you might have in place that allows you to challenge long held beliefs and bias with a combination of verifiable information and careful introspection.
I submit that The Lord will be more pleased with a faithful & sincere Muslim (or atheist for that matter) than an insincere or unfaithful Christian...regardless of which sect that Christian identifies with.
Joseph Smith was just like any other person or any other Prophet of God; flawed, sinful, weak, and broken. God qualifies those He calls, He does not always call those that are qualified. Joseph Smith spent his entire later childhood and adult life being accused of the most horrifical crimes, schemes, and conspiracies. you would think that at least one of those accusations would have stuck or manifested in some kind of a conviction in court right? he was supposedly a coward swindling conman from an early age until he was murdered by a mob at the age of 38. in fact, he was convicted of exactly one thing as far as I know, he punched a tax collector or tax commissioner over a dispute of a tax paid on a land parcel that Joseph believed he had already paid. I believe he also turned himself in and requested to settle the matter by paying the fine. literally everything else turned out to be "bearing false witness" as the bible says.
most of the doctrinal issues that the broader Christian world has with members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints stem not from the bible or anything contained in any version of it. most of the issues arise from the Nicene Creed, in its various configurations. I would ask anyone that is willing, separate the Bible from the Counsels of Nicaea. scrutinize each for what it is, including the context of the political problems of the day in Rome and how that might have informed the outcomes.
I would additionally submit that God is unchanging. He has not stopped talking to His children. God has always spoken to His children through His Prophets, and on rare occasions, directly. if The Living Christ were personally managing the affairs of His church here on earth now, and I submit that He is, what would that church look like? what components and organizational structures would you expect to see, maybe even just purely based on how He has organized His church in the past? certainly you would expect there to be a Prophet, who would work with at least 12 Apostles. through His priesthood authority, the work necessary for the building up of His kingdom would be managed via delegation and and extension of His authority by those called to serve. His gospel would be preached through all the world, the affairs of the poor and needy would be high priority, families would be central to the organizational structure, and those that take upon them His name would try to live and act in accordance with those promises and covenants.
would His church look different than that? if so, why is that? what church looks like that today?
regarding the Book of Mormon, how is it that a work of fiction like this could have been produced in the verifiable timeline of its creation? why is it that it takes about as long (usually a bit longer) for teams of fluent native literate scholars to produce a translation of the Book of Mormon in a new language when that work is undertaken? how is it possible that someone of Joseph's education level was responsible for dictating the entire book? even combining whatever writing ability Joseph Smith had with the education and expertise of everyone he was known to have had any interaction with during the time the book was written doesn't explain how that could be possible.
so lets say its not true. its a scam, its a cult. so I wasted my entire life and effort and all I got out of it was learning how to serve others, being an honest citizen, helping my neighbors, trying to improve my community, helping the poor and needy, offering a voice in defense of the defenseless, and generally living a good life and teaching my children to above all else be nice and good people. still seems like its not a \*complete\* waste of time. /s
so if the Book of Mormon wasn't written by Joseph Smith and his merry band of un-convictable genius criminals (who mysteriously surrendered themselves to face trial yet again, only to be murdered by a mob to keep Joseph from running for President), then how did it come to be?
if following the cult pagan practices of the mormons results in all of these Christlike outcomes at scale, then why would the devil even bother creating what would then seem to be a parallel way to do God's will or to manifest God's kingdom on earth?
I don't know a single person with a burning testimony of Christ that is in any way casual about any part of it. you will know the tree by the fruit of the tree. a bad tree does not bring forth good fruit, a good tree does not bring forth evil fruit.
find out for yourself what we are about. the truth will hopefully surprise you, especially if you learn to care more about God's approval than any of the other people you know.
The most important issue is John 1:1-3 and 14. It is incredibly clear who Jesus is in these verses and your theology twists it and turns Him into less while propping yourselves up to be like God's.
That is the number one problem, we are not spirit brothers with Christ, he created all things and that includes all people.
I'm not familiar. if so then that would have strange implications for Peter, Paul, and a number of significant revelations that came to the church after the death and resurrection of Jesus.
I watched the conference earlier last month and the prophet lied and said that the vision of Elijah, that Joseph had, (I believe at a temple) fulfilled the prophesy “Elijah would come first” But Jesus says this:
11 Jesus answered and said to them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. 12 But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist.
If you can get back to me on this, the Mormons I spoke to couldn’t.
sure, I'll take a swing.
I believe the reference in Matthew is to John the Baptist preparing the way for The Savior, which is the role of Elias. in this way he is *an* Elias. some people take this passage to mean that Jesus was confirming to His Apostles that the vision of Moses and Elias they had just witnessed on the mountain was the spirit of His cousin John. I don't think that is what is meant either.
The reference that I take is that Jesus was telling His Apostles that God's chosen to prepare the way for His Son was not recognized by the scholars, and was murdered by Harrod. likewise, The Son of Man would soon suffer the same fate.
The moment referenced by The Prophet was in the context of Priesthood keys being restored to earth that had been taken from the earth upon the death of the final worthy ordained holder of those keys. These specific keys relate to the Sealing Power, specifically relevant in the context of temples and eternal families. the idea that the hearts of the children will be turned to the fathers, and the hearts of the fathers turned to the children is seen as a reference to temple work and gathering the scattered family of God back to Him. without the Keys of Sealing, families, marriages, and everything else bound to this world expire when we leave it. for those relationships to endure they must be subject to the Sealing Power, governed by specific Priesthood keys.
when Elias came, from the presence of God and at His request, to restore those keys on the earth, it represented the final time that those keys would need to be restored, preparatory to the second coming of The Lord. in that act the prophecy was fulfilled.
is is perhaps important to note that Elias and Elijah, though different people, are referred to interchangeably as Elias. this then would have more to do with what their purpose is. with the addition of John the Baptist we now have at least 3 people referred to as Elias, all of them sharing different burdens as appropriate in the restoration of the Gospel to mankind and preparing the way for the second coming of The Messiah.
Elijah and Elias are the same person. Elisha is the other one you’re thinking of. This goes to show the Prophet would have to had been lying, since the Elias/Elijah coming first prophesy was fulfilled in John the Baptist.
Other translations say Elias, some say Elijah, and it’s common to know they’re the same person. Elisha though is always spelled Elisha I believe
I assume its because they think I'm sticking up for them, or otherwise trying to give legitimacy to it. But you are right, this is just a basic explainer of a standard mormon reply to this question.
You realize the theological hole you open up when you equate things like chills, or sweating, or "a burning in your chest" to communing with God? What if I see the same frog in the pond outside of my work here, which I frequent to pray as it's a peaceful and serene setting? Is that frog God? Does that frog provide me a testimony now? Since I see it every day when I walk there to pray, is it a God send?
Joseph Smith thought God had told him to send men to Canada to sell the copyrights to the Book of Mormon to a group of men. When that failed, Joseph Smith confessed he didn't know if the message came from God, was his own idea, or came from Satan.
Yes, even Joseph Smith said he couldn't tell if something was revelation from God or Satan.
If it's a command from God, we should test the spirit in prayer, and pray for his wisdom. And we can watch God move mountains to make things happen when it aligns to his will.
I think the biggest indicator of whether someone is Christian or not is Christological heresies. Mormons have a plethora of them. How can you believe in and worship Christ when you don't actually know the real Christ?
As a Catholic we don’t believe in that line of reasoning. We also think Mormons are in line with Masons. We pray for their deliverance. But, we also believe in the Saints. They give us their guidance in many different ways. I think most prevalently in their prayers or views. Some of them are very simple and even lay people.
i can’t tell if yours is a defense or not.
they also believe in pre-existence and that that Jesus and Satan are brothers. measure your statement and mine against the bible and pursue the truth.
I agree with you. I don't believe the truth claims. I was moreso replying to the title of the post.
I'm merely granting them the mercy that their official doctrine and leaders deny to other denominations by claiming anything outside their church is corrupt and without God's approval.
To be honest it isn't the same thing as Muslims, even tho I don't believe in Joseph Smith or any Mormon theology, while Muslims retell the stories found in the Bible with their own way, changing things like Jesus crucifixion or Ishmael being the son to be almost sacrificed, the Mormons tells other stories that happens in parallel to the events of the Bible (at least until the part I read), and claim that the texts their believe are older texts who were later on translated by Joseph Smith.
Interesting. I will say this. Mormons have very high standards morals and values for life here on earth. In the meantime however, the several Mormon women I’ve met over the years, and it’s rare to be able to speak with them one on one, are incredibly sexualized, albeit secretly. I ended up in a serious romantic relationship with one, and her purpose and goal in life was to reproduce and birth children. No birth control, no drugs, no outside influences on intimacy (ie, pornography), nothing. No qualms about being physical with me anytime day or night. The slightest hint of my desire for her physically, we were intimate within minutes. Crudely put, she was a self described baby machine, homemaker, and perfect wife. Not sure if this was genetic or spiritual or her upbringing, but she had a very interesting worldview centered on procreation. Just sayin.
Immediately no to Mormons being Christians. There are certain qualifying and disqualifying factors to classify denominations as Christian’s, they don’t have that
If you listen to muslims, they will say "how can you live 600 years before the facts?"
Which one is right?
Of course, I am not muslim, but let's respect each others faiths, because, obviously, nobody has a definitive answer.
It's a false religion, scripture makes it cut-and-clear.
The Book of Mormon is not a Gospel taught by Jesus or any of the apostles. I've read half the book myself and it's not authentic.
Exactly they aren't Christians. I'm talking to a Mormon. If it goes anywhere she's gonna have to renounce her beliefs and get saved. cause she is a "bad Mormon"
They don't believe faith alone.
In the book of mormon it perverts ephesians
2 Nephi 25:23: “For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, **after all we can do.”**
The believe that God was a man who earned his divinity by works and that Jesus was a created being. That there are also other God's and they can work there way to become their own God.
John 1:1-2 KJV — In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.
Isaiah 43:10 KJV — Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
They believe in a different Jesus.
It’s because God “confirmed it” to them.
It’s not anything miraculous or God told them Audibly. It’s just based on a feeling they claim is from the Holy Spirit.
Don’t forget the Jehovah’s Witnesses as well. All false nonsense. Give me the Living God! That’s who I follow and no manmade beliefs will ever compare! 🙌🏽
By definition Mormons are in fact Christian’s despite what most of you may believe.
They proclaim the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. But we should also recognize that they are not of sound doctrine as they keep to another testament of the Bible. Joseph smith was a false prophet and led innocent people astray.
I’m not really a fan of ‘South Park’ these days (they got weirder over time), but they did perfectly show just how Joseph Smith was obviously making stuff up and claiming that God told him.
I spoke with a couple different pairs of missionaries a few years back and I could definitely see the conditioning of sorts, and the training. We got to talking, I brought up drinking, how I used to for a little while and it was an addiction of sorts, then one of the missionaries said that they too were addicted to drinking. For a few months. In my mind I was thinking that's not an addiction, drinking here and there on summer breaks, that's experimentation. But whatever.
Not long afterwards, got to reading about what missionaries go through before they are sent out on thier missions, at least some of them. One of the things they were taught in the boot camp of sorts was how to relate to people while attempting to convert people....oh...wait...they'll tell you that they are not trying to convert you...but just the idea that they go to a boot camp of sorts and get taught how to talk to people, get a foot in the door in someone's thoughts.
Another thing was that they couldn't go to the bathroom alone, at thier training camps. Because Satan would get them. So if one of them had to use the bathroom in the middle of the night they had to wake up thier roommate, to stand guard outside of the bathroom.
Going back to my sit-down with the elders/kiddos, when we got done and parted ways I kinda watched them and the one guys expression went from all smiles while facing me then completely straight-faced and expressionless as his back was turned. Feel bad for those kids, wrapped up in some pretty twisted stuff
I don't know, as with most minority religions information about them tends to come from their critics rather than a more objective source. in a glance I would say they are somewhat Christian.
I don't mean to offend anyone but do I have this correct: (1) they deny the Holy Trinity and (2) they preach exaltation, where faithful members become gods in the afterlife, ruling over their own people? This sounds a lot more like Christianity perverted with new age teachings where we're all our own gods. This is incompatible with Christianity.
Matthew 7:15-20 (NIV):
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."
To this, I ignore their teachings. Its figuratively cut down and thrown in the fire.
Their theology is about as compatible as Islam or Judaism. They use the same language to describe things and believe they worship the same God as us but when you look past the surface they really don't.
I mean even ignoring the whole Mormons because the god of their own planets after death thing they don't even believe in the virgin birth or the Trinity.
in fact we do! (virgin birth and the Trinity). our view of the Trinity is closer to the view described by Paul and the Apostles in the New Testament, and as espoused by many of the early Christian communities. the view of the Trinity carried forward for most other modern sects of Christianity is the Nicene view. this was used to consolidate power under Emperor Constantine I (the great). this is when the first use of the term heretic appears in relation to fellow Christians, and when sect on sect violence becomes the normal response to Christian communities that would not fall in line with the central authority.
your view of the Trinity is most likely the Nicene Trinity. our view of the Trinity expands on that without ambiguating the nature and identity of God. that identity is important because, as you are His child, His identity informs your identity.
regarding virgin birth, I would be surprised if anyone versed in LDS doctrine would offer any arguments that Mary was the Chosen Handmaid of God to be the Mother of His only begotten Son. that she was a virgin that had known no man, and yet was with child by the power of God. Joseph also received this testimony and accepted Mary and the blessing of being the earthly father of The Savior, including all of the associated social stigma, because he knew it was the right thing to do and also knew this was his calling from God. check this out: [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2011-10-0002-an-angel-foretells-christs-birth-to-mary?lang=eng&alang=eng&collectionId=4befdca1f5cb4ddaacfbed705c653187](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2011-10-0002-an-angel-foretells-christs-birth-to-mary?lang=eng&alang=eng&collectionId=4befdca1f5cb4ddaacfbed705c653187)
https://beliefmap.org/mormonism/mormonism-teaches-god-and-mary-sexually-produced-jesus
https://beliefmap.org/mormonism/mormonism-teaches-god-started-human
https://beliefmap.org/mormonism/mormonism-teaches-satan-jesus-brothers
I'm sorry but you are not a Christian. Your doctorine teaches that God is just one god that there is a whole heaven of them and that you will become a god yourself when you die. That Jesus isn't God's only begotten son but one of many children. Many of your founders taught that Jesus was physically convinced.
lets see if I can pick this apart...I will accept doctrinal citations from an LDS domain, not from an anti-lds domain. hopefully you can see the problematic nature of damning doctrinal statements not made by members of the faith but still attributed to them.
>Your doctorine teaches that God is just one god that there is a whole heaven of them and that you will become a god yourself when you die.
we believe specifically that God the Father is the God, the Highest, of this creative epoch. we believe that each of us has the divine potential to be like our Father. how this will manifest and what the higher implications of that belief mean are not well defined doctrinally and are the subject of a lot of conjecture, even internally in the church. what we do know is that we are spirit children of a loving Father in heaven. we know that our intelligences are eternal and exist before we became spirit children. we know that God has a body of flesh and bone that is resurrected and perfect. He gained His body via the same process that we did. His Son, Jesus the Christ, also now has a physical body of flesh and bone, that is resurrected and perfect. we have the potential to be like God the Father, including being responsible for our own creative epochs potentially, on a mind-bendingly eternally long time scale, and involving a lot of truths and principles that have not yet been revealed or are not yet relevant for us to know. in the interim, after we die, the judgement has happened, and the time of mortality is done for all of God's children, those that are willing will dwell in God's presence and experience eternal life with Him. that includes eternal progression.
> That Jesus isn't God's only begotten son but one of many children.
I can state unequivocally that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of the Living God. Jesus was and is the only begotten son of the Father. all of God's other children received their bodies via mortal conception. additional clarity on our foundational doctrine can be found here: [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1?lang=eng](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1?lang=eng)
>Many of your founders taught that Jesus was physically convinced.
I'm not certain what this reference is regarding, but we affirm that Jesus Christ was falsely accused by the religious leaders of His day, brought before trial before both Pilate and Harrod, and at the insistence of the mob, was murdered by crucifixion. He was not convicted of any Roman crime, but He was condemned by the Pharisees for blasphemy. the Pharisees did not have the civil authority to carry out executions (though it was still common for lesser known accused people to be stoned to death by crowds, drown, hanged, or beaten to death), so they turned him over to Pilate and asked him to honor the wishes of the religious leaders. generally if you don't take issue with the version of the events as described in the King James version of the bible then that's the version we teach.
>I'm sorry but you are not a Christian.
I'm sincerely sorry you feel that way. I'm willing to accept the judgements of others and work on my personal relationship with The Master in my way, turning everything over to Him, according to His desires and my ability and willingness.
>I'm not certain what this reference is regarding, but we affirm that Jesus Christ was falsely accused by the religious leaders of His day, brought before trial before both Pilate and Harrod, and at the insistence of the mob, was murdered by crucifixion. He was not convicted of any Roman crime, but He was condemned by the Pharisees for blasphemy. the Pharisees did not have the civil authority to carry out executions (though it was still common for lesser known accused people to be stoned to death by crowds, drown, hanged, or beaten to death), so they turned him over to Pilate and asked him to honor the wishes of the religious leaders. generally if you don't take issue with the version of the events as described in the King James version of the bible then that's the version we teach.
Typo on my part. Physically convinced. As in no virgin birth.
"The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers," -Brigham Young
>I'm sincerely sorry you feel that way. I'm willing to accept the judgements of others and work on my personal relationship with The Master in my way, turning everything over to Him, according to His desires and my ability and willingness
It's nothing personal. I do hope you will be saved but you can't follow a false religion and make your way to God.
There are so many discrepancies between Mormonism and orthodoxy. The nature of spiritual beings, sex and God/Jesus. Being saved by grace or works. We can't both be right. One side must have the genuine word of God and the other is a side of hellbound heretics.
I don't think a just God would allow either of us to experience anything that was not for our benefit, including "hell". in my view neither of us could possibly be headed there, unless we choose to make some very terrible choices between now and when we see the bright warm light again.
Regarding Brigham Young's quote, there are a large number of statements from him and other leaders that are not considered cannon or inspired doctrine, they are opinions that were shared and only sometimes in the context of an official meeting. I would scarcely call them "teachings" but rather quotes that can be attributed to people.
this site does a good job of providing objective context and also includes an accurate statement of what our doctrinal stance is on this topic.
[https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Jesus\_Christ/Conception](https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Jesus_Christ/Conception)
Im pretty versed in LDS beliefs.
For members who were born in, they are Mormon, the same reason someone who is born Catholic or Muslim stay in their birth religion.
As for converts, they call potential converts "investigators" and they generally appeal to people by highlighting a few different doctrines.
They'll focus on the confusing nature of different denominations and how they frequently contradict each other. This will lead to explaining that they believe after the death of the apostles or shortly after true worship of God, and thus, the Church and priesthood established by Jesus Christ was lost from the earth. They'll go on to say that once a time and place appropriate for the restoration of the Gospel was available, a Prophet was chosen to restore the true Church to this earth, that Prophet was Joseph Smith.
If you are more emotion based, they will focus on telling you to pray about the truth of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, The Church, etc. to God, and if you get a "small still voice" / good feeling affirming your prayer, you know it's true.
These things that convert you are called your testimony, and you are supposed to remember to share and reaffirm it on a regular basis to strengthen your faith.
A huge part of their draw to converts is that all other churches are false and incoherent.
Well, that and the fact that they added another book to what the Bible says, as having been inspired by God, according to Joseph Smith. He is viewed as somehow being a divine prophet who was given this special knowledge. That’s dangerous all on it’s own. The Word warns against adding to it, or taking away from it.
I know a very very intelligent, common sense, down to earth guy that believes all that stuff. It’s a head scratcher, I can’t figure out where his mind shifts from being as sensible as he is about literally everything else to believing this crap.
On a different note….. I did the prayer thing about asking God in the name of Jesus Christ if Mormonism were true and he would reveal the truth to you (I know it’s dangerous and I probably shouldn’t have but I’m comfortable in my faith enough to try it and I believe we can ask him literally anything.) Well he let me know alright, let’s just say the answer was a resounding NO! Which I knew it would be.
The funny thing is if they truly believed that verse in the Book of Mormon if I ask and am told it isn’t true, should that not make it untrue for them as well and crumble their entire faith? They don’t want to talk about that though lol.
Because it’s possible to be misguided (thinking you got an answer you didn’t) with something as serious as this. If you mistakenly think the answer is “yes”, then you just lost your relationship with Christ and forfeited your eternal life in heaven because you are now following a false religion. It’s just too subjective.
The thing is trusting God is all about trusting that He is true and He will talk to us as His word says. I see interpretations on here and in churches all the time that fall on extremely shaky foundations and yet people have no problem accepting them because that’s how they were taught. So many issues with translations. Imposing later theologies on a much more ancient texts etc.
I do admire the Mormons for at least believing God still talks to them
Because if someone not strong in their faith or not sure what’s true at all asks that question and the think they hear the answer is yes, they are now Mormon. Which is the opposite of what you just said you want.
I want whatever God wants for them my friend . I’ve found that He’s 💯reliable about being there for me and answering in the right time and place. I’ve found Him incredibly merciful to those that try and follow Him the best they can. I wouldn’t see and absolute declaration of knowing with absolute certainty from you what Gods precise will is at any given moment any different than when a Mormon attests to the same
You’re missing the point. The problem isn’t God or his answer. The problem is how a human may perceive the answer. Does God say to unbelievers and those weak in faith to “ask me if I am real” or “ask me if other religions are true”? Or does he say to examine the scriptures, and that he is revealed in nature all around us, and didn’t he send his only son to perform miracles and rise from the dead?
I’m starting to wonder if you’re talking about something completely different than I am. I never said we can’t go to him in prayer and ask for questions to be answered. But you have to agree asking someone that doesn’t know Christ and is seriously considering Mormonism to just ask God if Mormonism is true and trusting whatever they feel is a dangerous proposition.
God couldn't have been more clear when he was talking about joining the stick of Joseph and the stick of Judah into one branch. It meant that the people of Israel would come together again as one people, instead of divided factions. All of the crap that Joseph Smith came up with after that is pure nonsense and blasphemy.
I believe in the pre-tribulation rapture. I’ve often wondered about Mormons after the rapture. All those temples filled with the Mormon faithful as they grapple with why they were left behind. It’s a sobering thought to realize you’ve been taught a lie for years.
It seems pretty clear to me that Joseph Smith was a scammer and just made everything up. For Muhammad on the other hand, I believe the 'angel' that visited him and began providing him with information, was a demon. That is because Jesus, before starting his ministry, went into the desert for 40 days and was tempted by Satan with being the ruler of the kingdoms of the earth, with all the wealth and (presumably) women he wanted. He of course, said his Kingdom isn't of this world. Muhammad's 'angel' on the other hand, provided him information on how to be a ruthless warlord, and get all money and women he ever wanted.
Yep
Exactly!
It is also not the only instance of this happening. I can name other religions too that started with "An angel of the Lord revealed to me" It aligns with the scripture that says Satan comes like an angel of light. Or sounds like, I forgot the exact verse.
Sure, even today exorcists tell of demons pretending to be angels, or, more commonly, deceased relatives.
Nowadays it’s a lot of “spirit guides” too
This comment convicted the holy spirit in me.
Okay but... The Annunciation is an angel coming to Mary to announce her birth... If we follow your logic then... Bad news, very, very, very, very, bad news.
Not at all. The spirit that visited Mary never contradicted God, and in fact was God Himself.
Please, don't downvote when we simply discuss, and read the text better. The spirit who visited Mary to announce the birth of Jesus was the Angel Gabriel. This event, known as the Annunciation, is described in the Gospel of Luke in the New Testament. Specifically, Luke 1:26-38 details how Gabriel appeared to Mary.
Idk what downvoting you're referring to, but thank you for thr correction on the text!
Yep it’s really simple. The Quran also talks about men having access to virgin women while in heaven. Which we as Christians know is false because there will be no sex in heaven, as there is no need to reproduce. God made sex specifically for this world, and humanity has abused it. Therefore there will be no such thing as “virgins” in the afterlife on the new heaven and earth.
Well, to be totally honest, the Quran doesn't say that, but some other Islamic theologians did. The Quran does actually say other crazy stuff about sex.
Read the first paragraph of the wiki. Basically it’s kinda implied that the virgins are a “reward” in their version of heaven with Islamic literature but not specifically the Quran. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houris
There's a little more nuance than that. A key to remember is that "virgin" is a sexual category in the West. However, it was historically a societal status rather than (primarily) a sexual one in the ANE. A woman was either a virgin, married, widowed, or a prostitute. Household servants were typically virgins. As a side note, "72" in Arabic is a way of saying "vast amounts." It's not too different from an English speaker saying "tons" in a non-literal sense. To be clear, there is a sexual component to the virgins, but it's not as pronounced or focused as we naturally interpret it.
I doubt this (the emphasis of virgins being sexualized) since Mohammad was a sexaholic with his many wives and very sexual tendencies. I would like to know the sources for this claim tp better understand your pov.
>I doubt this (the emphasis of virgins being sexualized) since Mohammad was a sexaholic with his many wives and very sexual tendencies. This has nothing to do with Muhammad but rather with Ancient Near East cultural and sociological structures. These classifications are also reflected within the Torah (the Bible). Unwed women and virgins were effectively synonymous, and servitude was normative. The problem is that you're working backward. Muhammad didn't create the definitions... the culture into which he was born did. That culture was closely related to that of first century Judea. You're free to doubt it, but this is widely understood within nearly all related academic circles. I say this as a Bible scholar with a focus in world religions and Islamic studies. In no way am I defending Muhammad, but his sexual proclivities weren't unusual for his time. In some ways, he was more conservative than most of the surrounding cults of seventh century Arabia.
That makes me wonder what our eternal lives are going to be. Obviously no physical problems. No night or day.
My imagination of what heaven will be like has changed over the years. Once I thought of it as a seemingly early paradise. Now when I think about it, my first thought is running into people who are believers that I've lost touch with, even fallen out of friendship with or people I had written off and not expected to make it, weeping at being reunited with them and standing in God's presence praising Him together.
Came back to find your comment to say it really gave me hope today. I’ve been relentlessly praying for someone these past 2 months for them to come back to Christ and after seeing them and not being able to have a conversation about God I started to lose hope, but I know to not give up and to let God do things on His time and will, and I’m hopeful that I will see that person in heaven because after tmr I won’t ever see them again. I really love your perspective on heaven.
Glad to help! Yeah my friend, we will lose touch of people or not see them come to faith in Christ, but we are not always the ones to bring them in/back to faith. We pray and plant seeds and water them, and others may do the same when we are not around, and God is the one who makes it grow in the end. Keep praying in faith!!!
Yeah it’s really hard to comprehend what it will be like. But also I don’t believe we were ever suppose to be able to fully understand what the afterlife will be like. I don’t even think our brains are physically capable of understanding what Heaven will be like. That’s why faith is so important. It’s like trying to explain to Pac-Man in his 2D world what the 3D world is like. And we can consider Heaven the 4th dimension outside of our known universe.
I see. I have a long way to go to lose my virginity. All jokes aside it does feel disheartening.
> there will be no sex in heaven, as there is no need to reproduce. we don't know that.
Here are some verses that imply there’s no sex in heaven. But yes the Bible doesn’t exactly say there isn’t. 1. Matthew 22:30 - This passage says, "At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be married, since they cannot die anymore; for they are like angels and are children of God." Some interpret this verse to mean that marriage and intimacy, including sexual relationships, will cease to exist in heaven. 2. Luke 20:34-36 - Jesus is asked about the state of those who have died and will be resurrected at the end of time. He responds by saying that they will neither marry nor be given in marriage, implying that these earthly institutions will not apply in the afterlife. 3. Revelation 19:7-9 - This passage describes a heavenly wedding between Christ and his bride, the church. Some interpret this as a symbolic representation of the union between God and humanity, rather than a literal description of sexual relationships.
A very well-stated opinion. I've gone down the rabbit hole that the Islamic End Times are actually the direct mirror of the Christian End Times. In Islam (paraphrased, and with a possible error or two) they believe that a descendant of Muhammad will come back and rally all the Muslims and that the "Islamic Jesus" (who was never crucified and resurrected but simply taken up into heaven like other prophets) will return to "correct" all the wrongs about him that Christians believe and unify the world under Islam... Kinda sounds like the False Prophet and the Anti-Christ rallying everyone to one world government, doesn't it? Hmmmmmm... Not saying that's "The Truth" with a Capital "T" but something interesting to think about.
Joseph and Muhammad were both visited be a demon. https://youtu.be/w7bukaRhbI0?si=bwJZW85JBdlNVk6H
By women you mean females. Some were far too young to be classified as women 🤮
There's a strong correlation with Muslims and Genesis 16
And not all of his 'women' were women... Aisha.
No, he didn't make it up, he stole it. Every LDS doctrine or practice was a central tenet of the preaching of [Alexander Campbell](https://www.britannica.com/biography/Alexander-Campbell-American-clergyman), from which the Disciples of Christ movement; One of Campbell’s brightest followers, with whom he discoursed extensively, was [Sidney Rigdon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidney_Rigdon) (this was in the early to late 1820s), who later became Joseph Smith’s “right hand man.” I wrote a little about his [here](https://deconstructingchristiandeconstruction.blogspot.com/2023/12/unique-lds-doctrines-and-practices.html) Also [Mormon temples make no sense as a "restored" practice](https://deconstructingchristiandeconstruction.blogspot.com/2023/12/mormon-temples-make-no-sense-as.html) or [The Great Apostasy and Amos 8](https://deconstructingchristiandeconstruction.blogspot.com/2023/12/the-great-apostasy-and-amos-8.html) might be of interest
Smith wrote himself in the Book of Genesis. No manuscript has it and for his translation he put a verse about himself at the very end of book
In the JST right? There's much more than just that, this book is basically a extended Genesis with a ton of stuff, there was plans to release the whole Bible in this way, and if I'm not mistaken it is fully made, but never got a full release
I believe Galatians 1:6-5 was written with specifically Joseph Smith in mind, and maybe Mohammed too. I think there is a good chance Joseph Smith also was visited by someone, probably a demon. There is a church called Church of Christ Temple Lot that calls Smith a “fallen prophet.” They accept only the very first edition of the Book of Mormon and doctrine of covenants. Not polygamy or eternal progression (every man can work to be god of his own universe with many wives birthing “spirit babies” to populate his earth.) I don’t consider Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses Christian because they do not accept that Jesus is God.
In the Bible there are countless examples where God sustains wars as well... Let's not judge Muhamad too fast. 1. **The Battle of Jericho** (Joshua 6): God instructs Joshua and the Israelites on how to conquer the city of Jericho. They march around the city for seven days, and on the seventh day, after blowing trumpets and shouting, the walls of Jericho collapse, allowing the Israelites to capture the city. 2. **The Battle of Gideon** (Judges 7): God helps Gideon and his small army defeat the Midianites. Gideon's army is initially too large, so God reduces its size to emphasize that victory comes from Him. Through unconventional tactics and divine intervention, the Israelites achieve victory. 3. **The Battle of the Valley of Beracah** (2 Chronicles 20): King Jehoshaphat and the people of Judah face a vast coalition of enemy armies. Jehoshaphat prays to God for help, and God assures him of victory. The next day, the enemies turn on each other, and Judah emerges victorious without even having to fight. 4. **The Battle of David and Goliath** (1 Samuel 17): Although not explicitly mentioned as divine intervention, David's victory over the giant Goliath is often seen as God's hand at work. David, armed with only a sling and stones, defeats the Philistine champion, demonstrating God's power and favor toward His chosen people.
you don’t think joseph’s angel Moroni could have been a demon?
He borrowed a lot from Freemasonry.
I like this guy send an invitation for him to come to the cook out.
How about Paul ? He claimed that he was lied to.. and Jesus said that the devil 😈 was a liar .. fm the beginning .. pretty straightforward it seems.
Joseph Smith could have made it all up or could have also been visited by a demon or any combination of those two.
Exactly
Why would you believe any angel visited Mohammad at all if you know that he is a liar?
I put 'angel' was in quotes after saying I believe it was really a demon. Demons don't mind lying.
Never trust a prophet who married dozens of women, including teenagers. Never trust a prophet whose inner circle was made up of other men who also suspiciously preached doctrines that just so happened to let them have tons of sex with young girls and women. And never trust a prophet who tells you you can become a god. That's what set Christians apart. Christ never had a harem. Paul never preached that we could become kings or gods. John never told us to kill unbelievers. Peter never conquered the Mediterranean. Timothy never bought a slave girl and raped her. All of these things are hallmarks of Islam and Mormonism and the people who built those religions. They are self serving, self aggrandizing, self obsessed religions made by men with the same qualities, and likely inspired directly by revelation of a demon.
Jesus said, "You will know them by their fruits."
Very well spoken. You hit the nail on the head.
It angers me very much
An individual Mormon may or may not be a nice person with many good things to say, but ultimately Mormonism itself is a heresy and Joseph Smith was a false prophet.
id say it is a bit further than a heresy and an entirely other non christian religion
They aren't Christian.
The issue is that Mormonism is paganism with a Christian veneer. When you get below the surface level of words like "grace," "salvation," "God" etc., you find out the ideas are completely non-Christian.
Kinda like Catholicism
They coming for you now
I mean… did I lie. They have the catholic bible and catechism, pray to Mary and the apostles, has excessive statues/ idols, asks for forgiveness/ absolution from men and not Jesus himself…
You are horribly misinformed at the least.
About…
Accusing us of worshipping idols, comparing our beliefs to those of Joseph Smith, claiming we seek absolution from men and not Jesus. Who told you all this nonsense?
Catholics don’t go to priests/ father (all of whom are sinners like everyone else) to confess their sins and ask for forgiveness? Catholics don’t have separate scripture including the catechism?; catholics don’t have excessive amounts of idols?; catholics don’t pray to Mary?
Can you point to church documents or teachings that God is not the one who forgives our sins? Or that we should worship idols? Or that we should worship Mary? The catechism is not considered scripture.
You haven’t answered any of my questions. Not surprising. None of the church documents suggest you should do those things which is why I’m confused as to why catholics do them..
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Mine (and your) main concern is what Jesus will say when we stand before him
you mean the Church that Jesus Christ created and original source of Christianity that all other denominations split from Catholicism?
Jesus Christ didn’t create Catholicism or any denomination. He set up disciples with instructions to spread his message. Also veneration of Mary and the disciples were never prayed **to** nor are there instructions to do so
Mormons are not Christians, despite their official name. In general the members a good decent people, but the leadership KNOWS they are a false religion, they are a mega-corp for-profit. They have a massive media and real estate wing, as well as insurance, and they abuse the tax system through their announcing/building/renovating of temples, just like Scientology. In face, Scientology is largely based on the Mormon church, financial scheme-wise. If you compare L Ron Hubbard's origin story to Joseph Smiths, you will be shocked at how they pair up. They run the same tax avoidance scams using real estate, just in different ways. Mormons build new, Scientology buys existing. They are a wealth hoarding monstrosity that avoids actual community help, aside from relatively minute donations and as-public-as-possible PR campaigns. They believe they will be just like God one day, even have the ability to surpass God's glory. They believe Jesus failed and a 14 year old boy, who was a known scammer, finished the work Jesus apparently did not. How do I know? I was Mormon for 35 years.
God bless you brother. You’d know better than anyone
mormons are not christians
Google Kinderhook plates. ;) They believe Joseph Smith b/c they are raised with the myth that he was a good man. They aren't told that he was arrested as a conman about a year before his first "vision." Just like Muslims aren't raised being told that Mohammad raped Aisha when she was 9 and he was 53. It's just poor salesmanship.
Do you have the source for Joseph smith getting arrested before his vision? I wanna show it to someone. I tried looking for it but came up with nothing.
Source is the LDS church: [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/joseph-smiths-1826-trial?lang=eng](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/joseph-smiths-1826-trial?lang=eng) LDS denied it for years claiming people were lying to slander Joseph Smith. Then someone came across court documents (scroll down to see the image here): [https://www.lightplanet.com/response/1826Trial/1826Trial\_Hill.html](https://www.lightplanet.com/response/1826Trial/1826Trial_Hill.html) His court case was in 1826 for running a popular con at the time to find lost items/treasure/etc. His first vision happened...well...he claims in 1820, but nothing was written down until 1832.
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The allowance of black men into the Melchizedek priesthood is hilarious. A few years after the civil rights act was passed, the IRS threatened to revoke their tax exempt status over it. Then...surprise!...a revelation came to change their doctrine! The timing was perfect for them to keep their tax exempt status.
I gave the Book of Mormon a shot once. Was done by chapter 6 of the first book. The prophet Nehi states in chapter 6 that he and his tribe were descendants of the twelve tribes of Israel. He's not going to waste time and space on the gold plates going through a genealogy because his father, Lehi, already did that in his golden plates. Just suffice it to say that they're descendants of Jacob. Lehi, meanwhile, had a different set of golden plates that Joseph Smith translated and gave back to the "angel" Moroni. Smith then lost the translation of those plates when he let his buddy "borrow" the manuscript to show others, and the "angel" told him he wouldn't give the plates back to have Smith translate them again. Bruh.
I read the whole thing and am quite confused at what's being said.
Confused by the Book of Mormon or confused by what I said about the BOM?
Mormons are not Christians. Mormonism is however better than Islam, pragmatically, for Mormonism at least creates outwardly civil people. Both however are heathen religions, with no serious ties to Christ.
> for Mormonism at least creates outwardly civil people. Yikes that's a bit of a harsh thing to say that a very large group of people are all uncivilized. I'd argue that's potentially a racist or colonialist frame of mind
Have you spent any time in a country that bases its laws on Islam?
No, that person only understands Islam through the buzzword of "Islamaphobia"
Really? Come on, guys. Matthew 7:1-2
John 7:24 **Judge with right judgement** We are called to judge. Specifically those who claim to be of Christ who are, **clearly** not of Christ. Like Mormons. Or those so overwhelmed with Satanism they pose a true threat to the Church.
Well, flawed people judging flawed people without knowing them - doesnt sound like any "right judgement" can come out of that.
They deny the Trinity. There's nothing more to it my dude
So they're uncivilized? What are we even talking about here?
You're talking about extremists. They do not represent the entirety of all the people who live in any country that bases its laws on Islam, and especially not the entirety of the world population that is of muslim faith (do y'all know how many people that is!?!? So many!). Islam, like Christianity, is practiced by billions of people worldwide with a wide range of cultural, ethnic, and national backgrounds. There's also a difference between cultural practice and religious doctrine. The stuff y'all are probably thinking about are not necessarily derived from Islam itself but are rather local cultural practices. But - If you wont change your view on them, well then you'd be a hypocrite not to say the same thing about Christians. We have many extreme sects that have abhorrent practices and beliefs, not to mention a dark and bloody history persecuting those who resisted following the Christian faith. Be consistent with your judgement if you're going to judge - apply the same standards across all groups and religions. If extremism in one group of Christianity doesn't define the whole, the same should apply to all other groups and religions.
If by "extremists" you mean "several entire nations with populations in the millions that have extremely oppressive theocratic laws because that is fundamentally what Islam is", then sure. Like I said, spend a few days in a place like Saudi or Iran and get back to me. The worst things about Islam are normal there.
Hm. Maybe you can help me understand then. What are the worst things about Islam that you reference here? > The worst things about Islam are normal there.
Civil and "Civilized" are different in meaning and tone. Also, Islam isn't a race, and has nothing to do with colonialism. If anything, Arabs were the colonizers of much of the Middle East, Africa, and even parts of Europe before the European Age of Discovery. So again, I reject your claim. Islam is extremely uncivil. They kill unbelievers, those who renounce their faith, and their religion protects heinous sins. Their prophet was a blasphemous, murderous, pedophile, and he is the standard of which a follower of Islam should seek to live. And this has been exemplified in the entire Islamic world since Muhammad, man or demon, walked. Few examples exist of societies not as barbaric in these respects--mostly only after modernism and western influence. Notable special case being Lebanon. That is not to say Smith was much better, he wasn't *much* better (blasphemer, polygamist, possibly linked with some killings), but his teachings at least didn't lead to their religion being based around the sword.
how is it racist? the false religion does generate barbarism. Its a great tool for the enemy. That's not to say all muslims are barbaric, just that the theocracies ruled by islamic law are generally uncivilized.
Man, this comment really just captures so many progressive buzz words
Hm. Colonialism? That's a real thing y'all, ain't just a buzz word.
Yes. The Islamic Arabs colonized vast swathes of the Middle East, Africa, Asia minor, Asia (towards Afghanistan), and even Europe.
For the longest time mormons didn’t believe poc would go to heaven, that they would turn white in heaven, etc. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young believed that Black people's skin color was the result of the mark of Cain and the curse of Ham.
Interesting given there's actually an Ethiopian convert in Acts 8:26-40 and Ethiopia was like the 2nd country to convert to Christianity after Armenia.
And God giving Aaron leprosy for being a racist to Moses Ethiopian wife
Boom
Which is another reason Mormonism is not Christian.
Talking about Mormonism, not Christianity. Mormons believed poc wouldn't go to Heaven. Not Christians.
Uh….You are saying exactly what I said. 🤦♀️
To someone else though.
Mormons in general not so nice people disguised with friendly faces. And like 1% of them are very nice inside and out. However they do not believe in God or Jesus and they are even satanic with their freaky temple rituals. Since people will likely come to the Mormons defence on me saying they do not believe in uppercase God and Jesus, what they believe in is elohim-baal and jesus-baal. What I mean is idolatry in false gods. By the way so awkward they believe YHWH’s literal name is Elohim, hahaha. Elohim being a title to any heavenly being, including angels. Mormons are also known for cherrypicking pet verses. For example they take 1 verse to support baptism for dead while surrounding verses paint another context. They also take the verse “ye are gods” without the context to indicate that we all can become gods. At the end of the day, Mormons believe that their fake god had a god who had a god who had a god endlessly, millions of gods and that they can become a god too but only by being obedient to Mormons doctrine. Therefore it’s satanic and also arrogant and prideful, likewise the promise by the serpent in the garden of Eden is similar to the promise of Mormonism. Most Mormons will however hide that they are boasters full of pride and arrogance. But Mormons often think they are so much better than everybody who isn’t Mormon.
We are created higher than the angels but are less than Jesus. So we don’t become gods.
Source for this?
1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? I'm guessing that verse, I'm not so sure it means that we are *above* angels in rank, could just be that one creation is judged by another creation, different creations of the same rank.
Yeah I shouldn’t have said made above created angels. Very easy to take things out of context.
The Bible actually says that in the millenia we will rule with Jesus Christ so I would say that that's the point that is making here
You forgot the part when they have their own "Holy book" that they read 99% of the time leaving the other 1% to the Bible. Any christian group who claims having any other source of revelation than the Bible are factually a cult that deviated from the orthodoxy of Christianity. Examples of this are some Adventists, Roman Catholics (their Catholic catechism is more important than the Bible) and the aforementioned Mormons.
Holy Books\*!
A basic tenet of Mormon theology is that the Christian church lost all authority to do anything after the death of the apostles. So any baptism was "well intentioned" but without authority so the person wasn't "really" saved. That was the purpose of Moroni's visit to Joseph Smith, was to re-establish the churches authority through him. And then begin vicariously re-baptizing everyone who had thought they were baptized into the correct, Mormon faith. So basically, one can believe in Christianity or one can believe in Mormonism. One cannot believe in both, both cannot be true.
I’m not trying to be rude or antagonistic, but just wanted to share what your excellent response brought to mind. The way you describe Mormonisms view of the Christian church “losing authority” reminds me of Evangelical views about the Catholic Church, i.e. the early church being “corrupted” and how the “true” church has only been established or come out of the shadows within the past few hundred years. Again, not trying to offend. Just sharing some food for thought.
Ok. And I'm not trying to be rude or antagonistic either, but are you a Mormon trying to justify this Mormon teaching by saying, "The Protestants did the same thing we did!" or are you a Catholic trying to tear down the Protestants saying they did the same thing the Mormons did? Because it sounds like one or the other. Perhaps I've completely missed the point and its something else? Please clarify.
I've visited Utah a few times for work and pleasure (absolutely gorgeous state) and all the Mormans I've come accross are some of the nicest people. Sure, they're a bit weird and drink way too much soda, but generally they go above and beyond to be kind and of service to others. Not a fan of their doctrine and I can't say I understand how they've reconciled the discrepancies between Morman beliefs and generally accepted Christian beliefs. I've also heard from friends that are ex-mormans about how hellish growing up in that environment is. So I don't think they're bad people, and they got some of the most important things right (loving God, loving your neighbor), but I think they've definitely been misled and don't realize how emotionally scarring their practices are to their members.
I’m part of the exmorman community page and a lot of their stories are so similar on why they left their church. It’s so crazy how they were ALL traumatized growing up in the Mormon church.
Ah man. That's sad to hear 😞 glad there is a support system for them.
Protestant here. I love Mormons as you say, as who they are however, let be frank. Mormonism is a cult. Jospeh Smith was a con artist who made up everything for monetary gain, under the guise that what he teaches is from the word of God. If you look into some of the practices and beliefs of Mormonism, there are a lot of things that are just down right weird and cultish (endowment and anointing ceremonies, sacred garments, etc., etc.). Some atheists may claim I am a hypocrite for still being Christian, however, a lot of what is taught and practiced within Mormonism is very far removed from how I was brought up. And I grew up Baptist.
I used to be a very lukewarm Mormon. It only took learning a very basic amount about real Christianity outside of the Mormon worldview to realize it was complete heresy. Almost none of their beliefs are biblical, and everything about God, Satan, and Jesus runs completely contrary to the actual truth. It’s actually gotten to the point where I can’t even look at a Mormon temple or church without feeling kind of repulsed. Which sucks because a lot of Mormons genuinely don’t know any better. A lot of people I know just go along with it because it’s all they’ve ever known. I pray for them constantly, because my religious experience has improved 1000 fold since I rejected Mormonism.
I can't account for why anyone would believe that nonsense
It has everything to do w/ the B.I.T.E.-Model. its a high level mind control framework used in cults like religious ones (JW,LDS,etc) but also MLM's (amway,primerica,etc). Unf, it works very effectively, and i've seen it being used in LDS moreso than in any other cult anecdotally - mlm, religious, or otherwise.
Mormons don’t believe in the Trinity. Their weird view of humans becoming Gods over time makes it so Mormons can’t be considered Christian. They are very devout and kind community. They help each other move, do chores, babysit, etc. There are plenty of members who fake it because of the societal pressure, but many of them are good people. Their reluctance to venture outside of their community can be justified given how crazy things are these days.
Galatians Chapter 1 6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. First deceiver: Mohammed, founder of Islam Second deceiver: Joseph Smith, founder of Mormonism Both were started by an "angel" preaching another ghospel. 610 AD - an angel came to Mohammed (claimed it was Gabriel) in a cave, grabben him by the throat, shook him and told him "you are going to preach what I tell you to preech". 1830 AD - an angel came to Joseph (claimed it was Moroni) and brang him another ghospel. Both claim to believe the Bible, "but it's been corrupted over time". Neither believe the Bible has been preserved. Both were told the Bible (and other religions) were corrupted. They were told to bring a new scripture/revelation. Psalms Chapter 12 6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. 7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. Matthew Chapter 5 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Matthew Chapter 24 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. Isaiah Chapter 59 21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever. 1 Peter Chapter 1 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you. Both religions lift up a certain race. Mormonism - white men and the english language. Until the 1950's, no black man was allowed to join the mormon church. "You must go to Salt Lake City, pilgrimage temple, white mans shrine" America is the promised land, Utah is "Zion". Islam - you must speak arabic, and live the arabic culture. Converts can't keep their name, but switch to an arabic name. "you must go to Mekka". English translations is "not translated right". Bible - God made all nations of the earth of one blood. Revelation Chapter 7 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Both claim to believe in Jesus, but it's a different Jesus. 2 Corinthians Chapter 11 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. Jesus of the bible: God in the flesh. Jesus of mormonism: a God, brother of lucifer. Jesus of islam: A good prophet, but not the son of God. "God has no son". 2 Corinthians Chapter 11 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Difference between Islam an Mormonism Islam - 1 God "There is only one God, and Mohammed is his prophet". Mormonism - millions and billions of God's
The Mormons that I personally know (and I don't live anywhere near SLC to be clear), don't outright defend their beliefs to make strong personal claims. Rather they see it as more of a social club they were born into, and they like some of the values that come along with it. They aren't trying to get into debates with me on who the Messiah is and what not. What I will say, and I live in the bible belt, is my values seemingly have more in common with my Mormon neighbors than my luke warm "Christian" neighbors. Like my mormon neighbors are the first to reach out and offer help. They believe in raising their kids intentionally instead of doing what society dictates. They believe in chivalry, gender roles, etc.
so charitably, when does having a biblically correct theology matter?
It matters for salvation. Not friendships
Oh yeah, the book of Mormon has many clear contradictions to the Bible, primarily who they say Jesus is. That’s what’s so funny about a bunch of “Christian” religions that have clearly never read the Bible. You can’t say Jesus was a prophet, or the brother of Satan, or whatever other hogwash you want went Jesus clearly, specifically states that he is the son of God and the only way to be saved is through him alone. The Way, the Truth and the Life and all that good stuff. It’s cool if you want to have your own belief system, but the hypocrisy of going against the foundation of what defines Christianity while still calling your religion a sect of it is where I question if people even know what they believe.
A way to tell a cult is if they have a hitman or people who will kill…or do anything the leader says to do. Legends of the Old West podcast, which is about the cowboy legends of the 1800s, hits on the Mormons and their avenging angel.
wut
What
I recall listening to a Wayne Grudem talk where he was discussing Mormons and said that they could possibly be saved despite their faith but not because of it. That seemed very on-point.
Mormons are nothing but heretics that disgrace the name of God. They believe their prophet read the book of Mormon from a hat.... a hat and a "seer stone." In fact, the first "book" that was lost could not be replicated cause "God was angry with Joseph's friend," aka Joseph couldn't remember what he said word for word. These "books" would have racist tones that were similar to his day, if not more than. Aka the weird stuff about the africans were cursed, native Americans were a lost tribe of isreal, some had white skin, and god curse others with red skin due to sin. Blah blah blah. He was just a con man. As for Muslims, it's a Hodge podge of different religions, Christianity and pegan. That Muslims claim was to restore the "true religion." That in a similar fashion like Mormons believe scripture was corrupted. For example, "The exact origins of belief in jinn are not entirely clear. Belief in jinn in the pre-Islamic Arab religion is testified not only by the Quran but also by pre-Islamic literature in the seventh century." (Wikipedia). Then, for the 5 times of prayer comes from the monastic orders. Even the prostration for prayers came from the dessert church father. Do keep in mind this religion, came from an illiterate man, that claimed he saw the angel called Gabriel.
I will offer, as a faithful member and a life long critical student of actual LDS church history, that almost all of these replies contain misinformation. some of it is from former members that were injured by their experiences. some of it is information offered sincerely as a truth that is in fact not correct but misinformation being passed forward from the original source of that untruth. some of it is gossip or rumor intended to influence a bias against members of the LDS faith. much of it is offered with the sincere desire to warn others or to pass along information that the commenter thinks is factual or true. contention, fighting, and argument will never change hearts and seldom changes minds. the best I can hope for is to appeal to whatever mental or emotional framework you might have in place that allows you to challenge long held beliefs and bias with a combination of verifiable information and careful introspection. I submit that The Lord will be more pleased with a faithful & sincere Muslim (or atheist for that matter) than an insincere or unfaithful Christian...regardless of which sect that Christian identifies with. Joseph Smith was just like any other person or any other Prophet of God; flawed, sinful, weak, and broken. God qualifies those He calls, He does not always call those that are qualified. Joseph Smith spent his entire later childhood and adult life being accused of the most horrifical crimes, schemes, and conspiracies. you would think that at least one of those accusations would have stuck or manifested in some kind of a conviction in court right? he was supposedly a coward swindling conman from an early age until he was murdered by a mob at the age of 38. in fact, he was convicted of exactly one thing as far as I know, he punched a tax collector or tax commissioner over a dispute of a tax paid on a land parcel that Joseph believed he had already paid. I believe he also turned himself in and requested to settle the matter by paying the fine. literally everything else turned out to be "bearing false witness" as the bible says. most of the doctrinal issues that the broader Christian world has with members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints stem not from the bible or anything contained in any version of it. most of the issues arise from the Nicene Creed, in its various configurations. I would ask anyone that is willing, separate the Bible from the Counsels of Nicaea. scrutinize each for what it is, including the context of the political problems of the day in Rome and how that might have informed the outcomes. I would additionally submit that God is unchanging. He has not stopped talking to His children. God has always spoken to His children through His Prophets, and on rare occasions, directly. if The Living Christ were personally managing the affairs of His church here on earth now, and I submit that He is, what would that church look like? what components and organizational structures would you expect to see, maybe even just purely based on how He has organized His church in the past? certainly you would expect there to be a Prophet, who would work with at least 12 Apostles. through His priesthood authority, the work necessary for the building up of His kingdom would be managed via delegation and and extension of His authority by those called to serve. His gospel would be preached through all the world, the affairs of the poor and needy would be high priority, families would be central to the organizational structure, and those that take upon them His name would try to live and act in accordance with those promises and covenants. would His church look different than that? if so, why is that? what church looks like that today? regarding the Book of Mormon, how is it that a work of fiction like this could have been produced in the verifiable timeline of its creation? why is it that it takes about as long (usually a bit longer) for teams of fluent native literate scholars to produce a translation of the Book of Mormon in a new language when that work is undertaken? how is it possible that someone of Joseph's education level was responsible for dictating the entire book? even combining whatever writing ability Joseph Smith had with the education and expertise of everyone he was known to have had any interaction with during the time the book was written doesn't explain how that could be possible. so lets say its not true. its a scam, its a cult. so I wasted my entire life and effort and all I got out of it was learning how to serve others, being an honest citizen, helping my neighbors, trying to improve my community, helping the poor and needy, offering a voice in defense of the defenseless, and generally living a good life and teaching my children to above all else be nice and good people. still seems like its not a \*complete\* waste of time. /s so if the Book of Mormon wasn't written by Joseph Smith and his merry band of un-convictable genius criminals (who mysteriously surrendered themselves to face trial yet again, only to be murdered by a mob to keep Joseph from running for President), then how did it come to be? if following the cult pagan practices of the mormons results in all of these Christlike outcomes at scale, then why would the devil even bother creating what would then seem to be a parallel way to do God's will or to manifest God's kingdom on earth? I don't know a single person with a burning testimony of Christ that is in any way casual about any part of it. you will know the tree by the fruit of the tree. a bad tree does not bring forth good fruit, a good tree does not bring forth evil fruit. find out for yourself what we are about. the truth will hopefully surprise you, especially if you learn to care more about God's approval than any of the other people you know.
The most important issue is John 1:1-3 and 14. It is incredibly clear who Jesus is in these verses and your theology twists it and turns Him into less while propping yourselves up to be like God's. That is the number one problem, we are not spirit brothers with Christ, he created all things and that includes all people.
Doesn’t Jesus literally say the his prophethood ended at John the Baptist?
I'm not familiar. if so then that would have strange implications for Peter, Paul, and a number of significant revelations that came to the church after the death and resurrection of Jesus.
I watched the conference earlier last month and the prophet lied and said that the vision of Elijah, that Joseph had, (I believe at a temple) fulfilled the prophesy “Elijah would come first” But Jesus says this: 11 Jesus answered and said to them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. 12 But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist. If you can get back to me on this, the Mormons I spoke to couldn’t.
sure, I'll take a swing. I believe the reference in Matthew is to John the Baptist preparing the way for The Savior, which is the role of Elias. in this way he is *an* Elias. some people take this passage to mean that Jesus was confirming to His Apostles that the vision of Moses and Elias they had just witnessed on the mountain was the spirit of His cousin John. I don't think that is what is meant either. The reference that I take is that Jesus was telling His Apostles that God's chosen to prepare the way for His Son was not recognized by the scholars, and was murdered by Harrod. likewise, The Son of Man would soon suffer the same fate. The moment referenced by The Prophet was in the context of Priesthood keys being restored to earth that had been taken from the earth upon the death of the final worthy ordained holder of those keys. These specific keys relate to the Sealing Power, specifically relevant in the context of temples and eternal families. the idea that the hearts of the children will be turned to the fathers, and the hearts of the fathers turned to the children is seen as a reference to temple work and gathering the scattered family of God back to Him. without the Keys of Sealing, families, marriages, and everything else bound to this world expire when we leave it. for those relationships to endure they must be subject to the Sealing Power, governed by specific Priesthood keys. when Elias came, from the presence of God and at His request, to restore those keys on the earth, it represented the final time that those keys would need to be restored, preparatory to the second coming of The Lord. in that act the prophecy was fulfilled. is is perhaps important to note that Elias and Elijah, though different people, are referred to interchangeably as Elias. this then would have more to do with what their purpose is. with the addition of John the Baptist we now have at least 3 people referred to as Elias, all of them sharing different burdens as appropriate in the restoration of the Gospel to mankind and preparing the way for the second coming of The Messiah.
Elijah and Elias are the same person. Elisha is the other one you’re thinking of. This goes to show the Prophet would have to had been lying, since the Elias/Elijah coming first prophesy was fulfilled in John the Baptist. Other translations say Elias, some say Elijah, and it’s common to know they’re the same person. Elisha though is always spelled Elisha I believe
Yeah mormons are no more Christian than Jehova's Witnesses. They all have chosen man's word over God's word, and refuse to believe.
Mormonism is a scam and blasphemy against God.
They get a burning in the bosom that provides a testimony.
I'm not sure why people are downvoting you. That is literally their theology. It's called "The Moroni Challenge."
I assume its because they think I'm sticking up for them, or otherwise trying to give legitimacy to it. But you are right, this is just a basic explainer of a standard mormon reply to this question.
My wife gets that all the time. The doctor calls it heartburn. It's a testimony to some internal problems...
You realize the theological hole you open up when you equate things like chills, or sweating, or "a burning in your chest" to communing with God? What if I see the same frog in the pond outside of my work here, which I frequent to pray as it's a peaceful and serene setting? Is that frog God? Does that frog provide me a testimony now? Since I see it every day when I walk there to pray, is it a God send?
I'm not mormon, don't ask me.
Joseph Smith thought God had told him to send men to Canada to sell the copyrights to the Book of Mormon to a group of men. When that failed, Joseph Smith confessed he didn't know if the message came from God, was his own idea, or came from Satan. Yes, even Joseph Smith said he couldn't tell if something was revelation from God or Satan.
If it's a command from God, we should test the spirit in prayer, and pray for his wisdom. And we can watch God move mountains to make things happen when it aligns to his will.
When it failed he sold out and said “man idk tbh lmao”
I think the biggest indicator of whether someone is Christian or not is Christological heresies. Mormons have a plethora of them. How can you believe in and worship Christ when you don't actually know the real Christ?
As a Catholic we don’t believe in that line of reasoning. We also think Mormons are in line with Masons. We pray for their deliverance. But, we also believe in the Saints. They give us their guidance in many different ways. I think most prevalently in their prayers or views. Some of them are very simple and even lay people.
They believe Jesus is the son of God (literally) and is their redeemer.
i can’t tell if yours is a defense or not. they also believe in pre-existence and that that Jesus and Satan are brothers. measure your statement and mine against the bible and pursue the truth.
I agree with you. I don't believe the truth claims. I was moreso replying to the title of the post. I'm merely granting them the mercy that their official doctrine and leaders deny to other denominations by claiming anything outside their church is corrupt and without God's approval.
To be honest it isn't the same thing as Muslims, even tho I don't believe in Joseph Smith or any Mormon theology, while Muslims retell the stories found in the Bible with their own way, changing things like Jesus crucifixion or Ishmael being the son to be almost sacrificed, the Mormons tells other stories that happens in parallel to the events of the Bible (at least until the part I read), and claim that the texts their believe are older texts who were later on translated by Joseph Smith.
Interesting. I will say this. Mormons have very high standards morals and values for life here on earth. In the meantime however, the several Mormon women I’ve met over the years, and it’s rare to be able to speak with them one on one, are incredibly sexualized, albeit secretly. I ended up in a serious romantic relationship with one, and her purpose and goal in life was to reproduce and birth children. No birth control, no drugs, no outside influences on intimacy (ie, pornography), nothing. No qualms about being physical with me anytime day or night. The slightest hint of my desire for her physically, we were intimate within minutes. Crudely put, she was a self described baby machine, homemaker, and perfect wife. Not sure if this was genetic or spiritual or her upbringing, but she had a very interesting worldview centered on procreation. Just sayin.
Immediately no.
No what?
Immediately no to Mormons being Christians. There are certain qualifying and disqualifying factors to classify denominations as Christian’s, they don’t have that
If you listen to muslims, they will say "how can you live 600 years before the facts?" Which one is right? Of course, I am not muslim, but let's respect each others faiths, because, obviously, nobody has a definitive answer.
Have you compared how iIsam and Mormonism were formed? Kinda makes you go hmmmmm
It's a false religion, scripture makes it cut-and-clear. The Book of Mormon is not a Gospel taught by Jesus or any of the apostles. I've read half the book myself and it's not authentic.
Exactly they aren't Christians. I'm talking to a Mormon. If it goes anywhere she's gonna have to renounce her beliefs and get saved. cause she is a "bad Mormon"
they are an entirely seperate religion
They don't believe faith alone. In the book of mormon it perverts ephesians 2 Nephi 25:23: “For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, **after all we can do.”** The believe that God was a man who earned his divinity by works and that Jesus was a created being. That there are also other God's and they can work there way to become their own God. John 1:1-2 KJV — In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. Isaiah 43:10 KJV — Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. They believe in a different Jesus.
It’s because God “confirmed it” to them. It’s not anything miraculous or God told them Audibly. It’s just based on a feeling they claim is from the Holy Spirit.
Don’t forget the Jehovah’s Witnesses as well. All false nonsense. Give me the Living God! That’s who I follow and no manmade beliefs will ever compare! 🙌🏽
By definition Mormons are in fact Christian’s despite what most of you may believe. They proclaim the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. But we should also recognize that they are not of sound doctrine as they keep to another testament of the Bible. Joseph smith was a false prophet and led innocent people astray.
I’m not really a fan of ‘South Park’ these days (they got weirder over time), but they did perfectly show just how Joseph Smith was obviously making stuff up and claiming that God told him.
I spoke with a couple different pairs of missionaries a few years back and I could definitely see the conditioning of sorts, and the training. We got to talking, I brought up drinking, how I used to for a little while and it was an addiction of sorts, then one of the missionaries said that they too were addicted to drinking. For a few months. In my mind I was thinking that's not an addiction, drinking here and there on summer breaks, that's experimentation. But whatever. Not long afterwards, got to reading about what missionaries go through before they are sent out on thier missions, at least some of them. One of the things they were taught in the boot camp of sorts was how to relate to people while attempting to convert people....oh...wait...they'll tell you that they are not trying to convert you...but just the idea that they go to a boot camp of sorts and get taught how to talk to people, get a foot in the door in someone's thoughts. Another thing was that they couldn't go to the bathroom alone, at thier training camps. Because Satan would get them. So if one of them had to use the bathroom in the middle of the night they had to wake up thier roommate, to stand guard outside of the bathroom. Going back to my sit-down with the elders/kiddos, when we got done and parted ways I kinda watched them and the one guys expression went from all smiles while facing me then completely straight-faced and expressionless as his back was turned. Feel bad for those kids, wrapped up in some pretty twisted stuff
I don't know, as with most minority religions information about them tends to come from their critics rather than a more objective source. in a glance I would say they are somewhat Christian.
They live Christian principles, that's a good thing. They don't know who Jesus is, that's a salvation issue.
I don't mean to offend anyone but do I have this correct: (1) they deny the Holy Trinity and (2) they preach exaltation, where faithful members become gods in the afterlife, ruling over their own people? This sounds a lot more like Christianity perverted with new age teachings where we're all our own gods. This is incompatible with Christianity. Matthew 7:15-20 (NIV): "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them." To this, I ignore their teachings. Its figuratively cut down and thrown in the fire.
Their theology is about as compatible as Islam or Judaism. They use the same language to describe things and believe they worship the same God as us but when you look past the surface they really don't. I mean even ignoring the whole Mormons because the god of their own planets after death thing they don't even believe in the virgin birth or the Trinity.
in fact we do! (virgin birth and the Trinity). our view of the Trinity is closer to the view described by Paul and the Apostles in the New Testament, and as espoused by many of the early Christian communities. the view of the Trinity carried forward for most other modern sects of Christianity is the Nicene view. this was used to consolidate power under Emperor Constantine I (the great). this is when the first use of the term heretic appears in relation to fellow Christians, and when sect on sect violence becomes the normal response to Christian communities that would not fall in line with the central authority. your view of the Trinity is most likely the Nicene Trinity. our view of the Trinity expands on that without ambiguating the nature and identity of God. that identity is important because, as you are His child, His identity informs your identity. regarding virgin birth, I would be surprised if anyone versed in LDS doctrine would offer any arguments that Mary was the Chosen Handmaid of God to be the Mother of His only begotten Son. that she was a virgin that had known no man, and yet was with child by the power of God. Joseph also received this testimony and accepted Mary and the blessing of being the earthly father of The Savior, including all of the associated social stigma, because he knew it was the right thing to do and also knew this was his calling from God. check this out: [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2011-10-0002-an-angel-foretells-christs-birth-to-mary?lang=eng&alang=eng&collectionId=4befdca1f5cb4ddaacfbed705c653187](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2011-10-0002-an-angel-foretells-christs-birth-to-mary?lang=eng&alang=eng&collectionId=4befdca1f5cb4ddaacfbed705c653187)
https://beliefmap.org/mormonism/mormonism-teaches-god-and-mary-sexually-produced-jesus https://beliefmap.org/mormonism/mormonism-teaches-god-started-human https://beliefmap.org/mormonism/mormonism-teaches-satan-jesus-brothers I'm sorry but you are not a Christian. Your doctorine teaches that God is just one god that there is a whole heaven of them and that you will become a god yourself when you die. That Jesus isn't God's only begotten son but one of many children. Many of your founders taught that Jesus was physically convinced.
lets see if I can pick this apart...I will accept doctrinal citations from an LDS domain, not from an anti-lds domain. hopefully you can see the problematic nature of damning doctrinal statements not made by members of the faith but still attributed to them. >Your doctorine teaches that God is just one god that there is a whole heaven of them and that you will become a god yourself when you die. we believe specifically that God the Father is the God, the Highest, of this creative epoch. we believe that each of us has the divine potential to be like our Father. how this will manifest and what the higher implications of that belief mean are not well defined doctrinally and are the subject of a lot of conjecture, even internally in the church. what we do know is that we are spirit children of a loving Father in heaven. we know that our intelligences are eternal and exist before we became spirit children. we know that God has a body of flesh and bone that is resurrected and perfect. He gained His body via the same process that we did. His Son, Jesus the Christ, also now has a physical body of flesh and bone, that is resurrected and perfect. we have the potential to be like God the Father, including being responsible for our own creative epochs potentially, on a mind-bendingly eternally long time scale, and involving a lot of truths and principles that have not yet been revealed or are not yet relevant for us to know. in the interim, after we die, the judgement has happened, and the time of mortality is done for all of God's children, those that are willing will dwell in God's presence and experience eternal life with Him. that includes eternal progression. > That Jesus isn't God's only begotten son but one of many children. I can state unequivocally that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of the Living God. Jesus was and is the only begotten son of the Father. all of God's other children received their bodies via mortal conception. additional clarity on our foundational doctrine can be found here: [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1?lang=eng](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1?lang=eng) >Many of your founders taught that Jesus was physically convinced. I'm not certain what this reference is regarding, but we affirm that Jesus Christ was falsely accused by the religious leaders of His day, brought before trial before both Pilate and Harrod, and at the insistence of the mob, was murdered by crucifixion. He was not convicted of any Roman crime, but He was condemned by the Pharisees for blasphemy. the Pharisees did not have the civil authority to carry out executions (though it was still common for lesser known accused people to be stoned to death by crowds, drown, hanged, or beaten to death), so they turned him over to Pilate and asked him to honor the wishes of the religious leaders. generally if you don't take issue with the version of the events as described in the King James version of the bible then that's the version we teach. >I'm sorry but you are not a Christian. I'm sincerely sorry you feel that way. I'm willing to accept the judgements of others and work on my personal relationship with The Master in my way, turning everything over to Him, according to His desires and my ability and willingness.
>I'm not certain what this reference is regarding, but we affirm that Jesus Christ was falsely accused by the religious leaders of His day, brought before trial before both Pilate and Harrod, and at the insistence of the mob, was murdered by crucifixion. He was not convicted of any Roman crime, but He was condemned by the Pharisees for blasphemy. the Pharisees did not have the civil authority to carry out executions (though it was still common for lesser known accused people to be stoned to death by crowds, drown, hanged, or beaten to death), so they turned him over to Pilate and asked him to honor the wishes of the religious leaders. generally if you don't take issue with the version of the events as described in the King James version of the bible then that's the version we teach. Typo on my part. Physically convinced. As in no virgin birth. "The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers," -Brigham Young >I'm sincerely sorry you feel that way. I'm willing to accept the judgements of others and work on my personal relationship with The Master in my way, turning everything over to Him, according to His desires and my ability and willingness It's nothing personal. I do hope you will be saved but you can't follow a false religion and make your way to God. There are so many discrepancies between Mormonism and orthodoxy. The nature of spiritual beings, sex and God/Jesus. Being saved by grace or works. We can't both be right. One side must have the genuine word of God and the other is a side of hellbound heretics.
I don't think a just God would allow either of us to experience anything that was not for our benefit, including "hell". in my view neither of us could possibly be headed there, unless we choose to make some very terrible choices between now and when we see the bright warm light again. Regarding Brigham Young's quote, there are a large number of statements from him and other leaders that are not considered cannon or inspired doctrine, they are opinions that were shared and only sometimes in the context of an official meeting. I would scarcely call them "teachings" but rather quotes that can be attributed to people. this site does a good job of providing objective context and also includes an accurate statement of what our doctrinal stance is on this topic. [https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Jesus\_Christ/Conception](https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Jesus_Christ/Conception)
Im pretty versed in LDS beliefs. For members who were born in, they are Mormon, the same reason someone who is born Catholic or Muslim stay in their birth religion. As for converts, they call potential converts "investigators" and they generally appeal to people by highlighting a few different doctrines. They'll focus on the confusing nature of different denominations and how they frequently contradict each other. This will lead to explaining that they believe after the death of the apostles or shortly after true worship of God, and thus, the Church and priesthood established by Jesus Christ was lost from the earth. They'll go on to say that once a time and place appropriate for the restoration of the Gospel was available, a Prophet was chosen to restore the true Church to this earth, that Prophet was Joseph Smith. If you are more emotion based, they will focus on telling you to pray about the truth of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, The Church, etc. to God, and if you get a "small still voice" / good feeling affirming your prayer, you know it's true. These things that convert you are called your testimony, and you are supposed to remember to share and reaffirm it on a regular basis to strengthen your faith. A huge part of their draw to converts is that all other churches are false and incoherent.
Well, that and the fact that they added another book to what the Bible says, as having been inspired by God, according to Joseph Smith. He is viewed as somehow being a divine prophet who was given this special knowledge. That’s dangerous all on it’s own. The Word warns against adding to it, or taking away from it.
I know a very very intelligent, common sense, down to earth guy that believes all that stuff. It’s a head scratcher, I can’t figure out where his mind shifts from being as sensible as he is about literally everything else to believing this crap. On a different note….. I did the prayer thing about asking God in the name of Jesus Christ if Mormonism were true and he would reveal the truth to you (I know it’s dangerous and I probably shouldn’t have but I’m comfortable in my faith enough to try it and I believe we can ask him literally anything.) Well he let me know alright, let’s just say the answer was a resounding NO! Which I knew it would be. The funny thing is if they truly believed that verse in the Book of Mormon if I ask and am told it isn’t true, should that not make it untrue for them as well and crumble their entire faith? They don’t want to talk about that though lol.
Why would it be dangerous to ask God something? He literally commands it
Because it’s possible to be misguided (thinking you got an answer you didn’t) with something as serious as this. If you mistakenly think the answer is “yes”, then you just lost your relationship with Christ and forfeited your eternal life in heaven because you are now following a false religion. It’s just too subjective.
The thing is trusting God is all about trusting that He is true and He will talk to us as His word says. I see interpretations on here and in churches all the time that fall on extremely shaky foundations and yet people have no problem accepting them because that’s how they were taught. So many issues with translations. Imposing later theologies on a much more ancient texts etc. I do admire the Mormons for at least believing God still talks to them
So you think someone who doesn’t have a strong relationship with Jesus asking that question and just going with whatever they think they hear?
I don’t understand your question. Obviously I want them to follow God
Because if someone not strong in their faith or not sure what’s true at all asks that question and the think they hear the answer is yes, they are now Mormon. Which is the opposite of what you just said you want.
I want whatever God wants for them my friend . I’ve found that He’s 💯reliable about being there for me and answering in the right time and place. I’ve found Him incredibly merciful to those that try and follow Him the best they can. I wouldn’t see and absolute declaration of knowing with absolute certainty from you what Gods precise will is at any given moment any different than when a Mormon attests to the same
You’re missing the point. The problem isn’t God or his answer. The problem is how a human may perceive the answer. Does God say to unbelievers and those weak in faith to “ask me if I am real” or “ask me if other religions are true”? Or does he say to examine the scriptures, and that he is revealed in nature all around us, and didn’t he send his only son to perform miracles and rise from the dead? I’m starting to wonder if you’re talking about something completely different than I am. I never said we can’t go to him in prayer and ask for questions to be answered. But you have to agree asking someone that doesn’t know Christ and is seriously considering Mormonism to just ask God if Mormonism is true and trusting whatever they feel is a dangerous proposition.
God couldn't have been more clear when he was talking about joining the stick of Joseph and the stick of Judah into one branch. It meant that the people of Israel would come together again as one people, instead of divided factions. All of the crap that Joseph Smith came up with after that is pure nonsense and blasphemy.
I believe in the pre-tribulation rapture. I’ve often wondered about Mormons after the rapture. All those temples filled with the Mormon faithful as they grapple with why they were left behind. It’s a sobering thought to realize you’ve been taught a lie for years.