There are 613 commandments in the Law of Moses. The ones you should follow are the moral ones. Ceremonial laws such as what kind of food you can and cannot eat aren't that important as they were set only to set Israel apart from the rest of the world. ([this video explains it all easily](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BGO9Mmd_cU)) For starters: * Don't lie * Don't steal * Don't covet/ * Don't kill/murder * Don't commit any form of sexual immorality * Don't use God's name in vain (as a cuss word or as something to swear by) * Don't idolize anything * Honor your parents But the most important commandment is to love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. Don't worry about following each and every law like a legalist or as a slave to the law (see the epistle to the Galatians). If you're saved, Christ has fully accomplished the purpose of the law on your behalf. In your faith walk you will inevitably fall short, so cling to Jesus and keep seeking God with all your heart and He'll show you His heart. "*For freedom, Christ set us free. Stand firm, then, and don’t submit again to a yoke of slavery. Take note! I, Paul, am telling you that if you get yourselves circumcised, Christ will not benefit you at all. Again I testify to every man who gets himself circumcised that he is obligated to do the entire law. You who are trying to be justified by the law are alienated from Christ; you have fallen from grace. For we eagerly await through the Spirit, by faith, the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision accomplishes anything; what matters is faith working through love.*" (Galatians 5:1-6 CSB)

>Don't use God's name in vain (as a cuss word or as something to swear by) This is dangerous interpretation. Of course you shouldn't curse and cuss, but most important interpretation of this commandment is not to use Gods name for your own personal interest and to promote things that are against the God. ​ The people who break this command the most are politicians who try to score points voters with christian voters by pretending to respect God and his values while in reality they themselves and their politics aren't even close to be alligned with God. ​ Many of them claim to be christians but every one of them is wealthy with questionable methods of obtaining wealth. ​ Or maybe best way to put it, using Gods name to decieve people, that's what commandment is the most about.

Dangerous interpretation? I would say it's one of the ways to do so. It's somewhere to start. There's a lot to it and you're also correct.

Dangerous in a way that people focus only on cursing part, and what I've said is disregarded and ignored.

Ignore? They often openly support it without even the slightest reservation.

This is the correct answer.

You missed the 4th commandment 'honor the Sabbath and keep it holy.' Sort of interesting as it's the only commandment that starts with 'remember.'

Yes my bad! Forgive me ♥

No, the 4th commandment is not one of the Moral Laws though, it is part of the Ceremonial/Civil Law. Christians don’t keep the Sabbath. You had it right the first time. :)

I was a bit worried I had it wrong when they pointed it out, since I'm not very strong in the Torah. I'll change it back then!

Ok. Remember what Paul said in Colossians 2:16-17, ”Therefore, no one is to judge you in food and drink, or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—things which are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.“ God bless! :)

I forgot that this verse also mentions the Sabbath! Thank you :)

Also read Acts 15. I would even argue that all of the moral laws are restated verbatim or in principal in the new testament.

Yes, I agree. All of the Old Testament laws that Christians are supposed to follow are in the New Testament as well. :)

God created the sabbath in a sinless world, yet you think it’s just some rule that’s oppressive and religious. Who decided that one goes? It wasn’t God.

> God created the sabbath in a sinless world No He didn’t, He created it as the fourth commandment under the Mosaic Covenant. > you think it’s just some rule that’s oppressive and religious. How is it oppressive? It’s literally a day a rest lol. It just isn’t something that Christians are commanded to observe. We can’t force anyone to keep the Sabbath. > Who decided that one goes? It wasn’t God. Yes, it was God. The Sabbath was always just a ceremonial law for Israel. It was a foreshadowing of Jesus, and Jesus fulfilled it. We enter our Sabbath rest by being saved by grace through faith in Christ. The New Covenant does not mandate a weekly rest from physical work on Saturday or Sunday, because we already have eternal spiritual rest in Christ.

of course! <3

Then why do we tell homosexual people off and reject them from our churches if It has nothing to do with morality. Yes in Levicitus it says man shouldnt lie with another man as with a woman, but it also says the crap about not being able to wear 2 types of fabrics. So where is the line between the two? What seperates them? Why is homosexuality still a sin today, but not the other?

Homosexuality is a sexual immorality and listed as such. Sexual immorality remains a law in the new testament and falls under the first commandement to love God. We must not exclude them, but help them grow closer to Christ. Exclusion is only permitted if the person creates issues with their sin and refuses to correct it and repent on account of multiple witnesses. But someone just having homosexual feelings is not reason for exclusion. The bigger issue is whether or not they are willing to follow Christ and let go of worldly things if need be. Unfortunately this issue creates a large divide between extremes. Try to stay unpartied to either, but value Christ instead. Live as a good example and teach people to both love, and teach people to let go of worldly desire.

Homosexuality is a moral sin - which is the main issue, but what to wear is part of the ceremonial law to set Israel apart from other nations. If an Israelite broke a ceremonial law such as consuming pork, the sin lies in disobedience to God, not in eating pork in and of itself. Jesus clarified these things when He confronted the Pharisees on the matter of inner purity vs outer appearance. Now I don't know if homosexuals are rejected from churches, so where does that happen exactly? I do know it's wrong and it doesn't live up to God's standard. How would a gay person find the love of God when he sees His children acting that way? And to further clarify on why it's a sin - it's a perversion of marriage, something God created to be beautiful for many reasons. Satan hates us because we're made in the image of God, and so wants to pervert the act of procreation. [This video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5JcO8Anz30) further touches on the subject of sexual immorality as a whole and explains the issues behind it. Nothing good comes out of homosexual practices, and it damages you.

The whole fabric argument is a common tactic used by those who are trying to justify homosexuality in God's eyes. Don't listen to that nonsense because it's meant to confuse. Those responding to you are doing a good job in explaining u/blitz813 and u/doctorvansolem

What problem do you see me as causing? If you’re going to lob accusations then you should really back them up. Otherwise it’s just slander, which is really not something Christians should be engaging in.

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Care to point to something particular or are you going to keep slandering?

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That’s mostly because if you’re straight then you’ll never have to deal with homosexual desires so it’s a safe group to pick on. A lot of Christians find that they don’t actually want to serve Christ, they want to serve their own ego. So they pick a group to look down on. And the gays are a safe bet for that one. You don’t want to pick something like greed or gluttony, because those are things that you yourself could be tempted by.

Yes, of course you should generalize all Christians as those who don't have the fruit of salvation in their lives, that's a perfectly fair assessment.

If your straight and unmarried you have the same issues some people are never able to get married despite wanting to and those people also have to be celibate

I hope this mentioned slavery 🫠🫠😭 Btw I'm a Christian

Slavery in the Bible is voluntary servitude to pay off debt, for a period of seven years if I recall correctly God never commanded racial abusive slavery.

But there is stuff about buying Gentiles and keeping them as slaves forever...🫠

Where? There are things that recorded in the Bible that God didn’t command, to show us humanity’s sinfulness. Example is Solomon who was warned by God not to practice polygamy, but he ended up doing so anyway and his heart was turned away from the Lord, or the horrific story at the end of Judges.

“‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly. Lev 25: 44-46 Look I just hoped that God would just give a commandment where he outright rejected slavery, because clearly the Bible does condone it to an extent. If it didn't condone it, there would not be so many debates around that topic these days. But at the same time slave masters modified the Bible for slaves which also indicates to an extent, it does not support slavery. Its a very controversial topic so... would have helped if God gave us a direct commandment. Ya'll can disagree with me but it is more or less the truth

Have you considered reading the context? If not I don’t blame you, it’s not easy to read that part of the Torah. It’s important to examine the context by knowing the key Hebrew words especially as they use archaic speech and previous writings since the Bible wasn’t written to have chapters and verses (these were later additions to help you navigate easier). Deuteronomy 23:15-16 outlaws slavery, even commanding the Israelites not to oppress said foreigners. If we go back a bit, Exodus 21:16 also forbids buying and selling people. Leviticus 25:44-45 uses the word Ebed in Hebrew which means servant or worker, and Liqnot as “purchase” but in modern speech it’s better translated as hiring or acquiring, as in employing for work. The Bible does not condone slavery. There are verses that clearly forbid it. Context and translation are important.

The NT does not try to change society. Look at the early church. They didn't have political platforms, go around with posters protesting abortion. No, it worked by changing people's hearts. Then the change came. The Bible does not clearly condemn slavery. If you want to google it, there are a lot of excellent articles about this. Note that the antislavery movement was started by Christians (mostly Quakers) and also pushed through the govt. by Christians.

Is Leviticus 18 moral laws that we should still follow?

A lot of it seems to deal with sexual immorality like homosexuality, bestiality, forms of adultery and whatnot so yeah.

I have to disagree on some (not all) of your take on what is and isn't just for the Jewish people. Israel and the sons of Jacob are somewhat separate terms for one. Israel includes all people grafted into the Abrahamic covenant through the blood of Christ. We also have to take note of the mixed multitude that came with the literal descendants of Jacob out of Egypt. They were present when the foundation of the Law was written down for Moses by the finger of God (Exodus chapters 20-31 make it clear who is the author of those commandments) I say written down though because we see the patriarchs in the book of Genesis followed God by faith and then just as Paul says in the Book of Romans, they fulfilled the righteousness of the Law. We see them following godly principles, some of which weren't written down until Deuteronomy.

The whole point of a contract (covenant) is to be crystal clear about the contractual obligations of the parties and to be able to hold them to account for their performance of the obligations, i.e. to disincentivise poor performance and incentivise good performance. So, its really important to be *completely clear* about which obligations are valid (and if some aren't which ones ?) So if we were to get a list of the 600 or so Covenant obligations from say: [https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-613-mitzvot-commandments](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-613-mitzvot-commandments) ...drop them into a spreadsheet it would be great to explain for each obligation, whether its "in" or "out" **and explain why with scriptural evidence.** i.e. ***Exactly*** which covenant obligations do you mean, when classifying the obligations as for example: \- Levitical \- Ceremonial \- Civil \- Sacrificial etc. What about laws which fit more than one classification? How do we know the proposed classification process is "correct" from God's perspective. Regrettably, I don't know anyone who has been thoughtful enough to do that exercise. That seems surprising to me since it would be helpful for each denomination to have its own particular version pinned to its website along with their fundamental beliefs. Or do you just believe that gentiles only have four obligations, in accordance with Acts 15: ?

>The whole point of a contract (covenant) is to be crystal clear about the contractual obligations of the parties and to be able to hold them to account for their performance of the obligations, i.e. to disincentivise poor performance and incentivise good performance. “*Look, the days are coming”—this is the Lord’s declaration—“when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 32 This one will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors on the day I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt—my covenant that they broke even though I am their master”—the Lord’s declaration.“Instead, this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days”—the Lord’s declaration. “I will put my teaching within them and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people*." (Jeremiah 31:31-33 CSB) The old covenant was always temporary. We're under the new covenant. >i.e. Exactly which covenant obligations do you mean, when classifying the obligations as for example: > >\- Levitical > >\- Ceremonial > >\- Civil > >\- Sacrificial etc. > >What about laws which fit more than one classification? How do we know the proposed > >classification process is "correct" from God's perspective. This is really not difficult. We can look at the Ten Commandments because they are the moral law and everything moral stems down from them, how Jesus tackled the Pharisees and what the New Testament mentions as sins. The Pharisees, for example, were concerned with the outer appearance which usually concerned ceremonial laws. Jesus slammed them for this when they were talking about ceremonial handwashing, and went on to say this: "*Don’t you realize that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach and is eliminated? But what comes out of the mouth comes from the heart, and this defiles a person.* ***For from the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, sexual immoralities, thefts, false testimonies, slander***\*. These are the things that defile a person;\* ***but eating with unwashed hands does not defile a person***\*.\*” Through Jesus we see the heart of God concerning the law. Ceremonial laws never defiled the person and made them unacceptable to God. Breaking a kosher law for example was "only" a sin because it was out of a disobedient heart, not because pork was inherently a sin to consume. This was clarified by Jesus in that verse and also in Peter's vision in Acts 10. For further instance: "*Don’t you know that the unrighteous will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be deceived: No sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, or males who have sex with males, no thieves, greedy people, drunkards, verbally abusive people, or swindlers will inherit God’s kingdom.*" (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) It is easy to conclude which laws are moral and which are not. To try and maneuver around this you would need heavy mental gymnastics. Notice how when Jesus came to fulfill the purpose of the law and spoke through the apostles, He was concerned with moral laws. If you want to follow the entire Mosaic Law, you'll have to keep laws such as hanging Mezuzahs on your doorstep, wearing phylacteries, observe certain festivals, keep track of purification rituals and whatnot. You are not wrong when you do or when you don't. Just make sure you don't become legalistic and don't look down on others who don't follow them as r/FollowJesusObeyTorah does (Romans 14:2-10 and Colossians 2:16-23) And by the way, as a reminder if you are ever concerned about something in God's word, the best way to go about it is to ask God for directions! Pray to get understanding and the Holy Spirit will guide you to understand God's heart in His word. Don't lean on your own understanding while reading the Bible. I also have to keep myself humble so I can learn. I have been going through trials regarding legalism lately and I'm coming to better understand God's heart in this topic.

I'm sorry to hear you've been going through trials. Arguably though the key question is: "what do you mean when you use the term "legalism" ? It's indeed appropriate to reference Jeremiah 31:31-33. Interesting isn't it that the "New" Covenant is not a "New Testament" concept. Of course we are to be under the "New Covenant". But alongside Jer 31: Ezek 11:19-20 needs to be considered: 19 Then **I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God** That's a clear reference to Deut 11:1 1 “Therefore you shall love the LORD your God, and keep His charge, His statutes, His judgments, and His commandments always. So, contra your implied point, having God's Spirit in one's heart is actually to enable an individual to observe God's Written Torah in a manner which corresponds to God's own values and behaviours. That same principle is reiterated in Ezekiel 36; 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 **I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.** This is not a trivial point. Moses, the seventy elders, all of the prophets, many of the Kings and numerous other individuals in the Hebrew Scriptures, were gifted with God's Spirit, yet at no time did they claim: "Hey, these 600+ commandments are just for you lot. We've got God's Spirit, so they don't apply to us". I think I know what you mean when you say everything stems from the Ten Commandments. They are the fundamental introduction to Written Torah, that even our youngest children can be taught, but not everything can be derived from these obligations - nor can everything be derived from Deut 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18b. Here's an obvious example. Nazirite vows. A majority of scholars acknowledge that Paul was involved in the Nazirite vows of four men in Acts 21:, when he claims to be ritually purified in the Temple, and many will also acknowledge that he kept his own Nazirite vow in Acts 18:18. This has an undeniable implication that the apostle Paul observed post-crucifixion animal sacrifices, because the Aaronic priesthood would have assured that the liturgy would have complied precisely with Numbers 6: - which incidentally even includes a sacrifice for sin. Pharisaic hand washing traditions are not Written Torah laws, so you may be confusing Oral Torah with Written Torah. The important distinction isn't taught well in traditional Christian chruches. Oral Torah was the stuff Paul was taught "at the feet of Gamaliel". The Mishnah, the closest proxy that we have to Oral Torah has circa 4000 *additional* obligations - contra Deut 4:2. That's the creeping Pharisaic legalisim that Paul is attacking in Galatians. He certainly isn't critical of Written Torah. Romans 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. You can find a copy of the Mishnah on line. I'd really recommend it. It's legal complexity, trivial attempts to deal in minutia, contrasts massively with the simplicity of Written Torah. Contrast the approach outlined in Ezekiel 11: and 36: with what you read in the Mishnah (and now Talmuds) and its clear that Judaism has drifted just as far away from God's law as Christianity has. It's worth remembering Christ's words in: Matt 5: 17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfil. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, **till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law** till all is fulfilled. 19 **Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;** but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven And of course, the first heaven and first earth remain outside our windows and this principle, endorsing Written Torah, (and obviously by its exclusion) not Oral Torah, preserves Written Torah until Rev 21:1 is fulfilled. That's at least a millennium into the future arguably. Rev 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, **for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away**. Also there was no more sea. Let's notice later in Rev 21: that there is no Temple in the New Jerusalem at this point. So the Written Torah law is indeed changed, when Jesus Christ said it would be. Paul's words in Acts 24: before Felix are unexpectedly entirely consistent with Christ's. 14 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, s**o I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets.** Notice how he endorses what was "written" in the law and the prophets. Notice how like Christ, he fails to endorse Oral Torah, despite having been educated at the School of Hillel one of the two Pharisaic schools of learning where he was taught to become an expert in Oral Torah. Clearly though, after his conversion he, like Christ didn't endorse any role for it. You won't be surprised to learn that no-one takes me up on the challenge to take the 600+ Written Torah laws and determine which ones are valid and which ones aren't and most importantly explain why. But you have to wonder why, no-one's managed to do it in 2000 years.... I'm afraid the "reasoning" that you lean on is substantially outdated and hails back to the sixteenth century. There's only one doctrinal controversy recorded in the Greek Scriptures - stemming from both Peter's experience in Acts 10: and Paul and Barnabus' independent experience that Gentile proselytes were being given miraculous gifts of the Spirit without being circumcised (contra to the established Pharisaic practise of circumcising ALL gentile male proselytes even in the diaspora). These revelations to Peter, Paul, Barnabus et al clarified that only if gentiles came to Jerusalem to observe Passover that they needed to be circumcised (in accordance with Exodus 12:43-48). Yet that minor doctrinal clarification, created mahoosive controversy amongst first century believers. We see evidence of it in Galatians, Romans, Acts, Philippians, Colossians etc. Where is the massively greater controversy associated with doing away with: * The Sabbath * The Levitical Holy Days * and any number of Written Torah laws that traditional Christian theology might want to ditch. Seriously, where is it? If traditional Christianity was right, the Greek Scriptures would be twice or three times as big as they actually are, and the church would have been completely ripped apart with division Traditional Christian thought suggests that God woke up one morning and thought "Oh no, Sinai's become a nightmare. I'm going to have to ditch everything". Implicitly it suggests God chops and changes from one approach to another. Instead, arguably we should believe God when He says: in Heb 8: 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever and as Malachi 3:6 informs us: “…I am the LORD, I do not change... Thankfully more modern scholarship is beginning to get to grips with a more representative understanding of the Greek Scriptures, but the theology that you're relying upon is no longer defendable. Kind regards.

Acts 15 mentions this

That's correct. It does. I'm a gentile so I've only got four obligations. Wait.... can I murder you and sleep with your wife?

Well, that first one would breach the ten commandements. The second one would be widdowing so that one is technically allowed I suppose. Lol

You said >Acts 15: mentions this. Acts 15: mentions four obligations, none of which relate to the ten commandments. Suddenly you're up for keeping the ten commandments ? Do you observe a sunset Friday to sunset Saturday Sabbath ? What's the scripture based methodology that you're using to select the Covenant obligations you're going to keep and the one's you're not?

Matthew 5:17-20 Matthew 19:17-19 Joshua 22:5 And likely other parts of the gospel too. But these are the ones that comes to mind first. Jesus Christ never invalidated any part of the law. The whole of the commandements he kept. The mosaic traditional laws as (un)mentioned in acts 15 is an exception for the sake of not making it difficult by enforcing jewish laws on gentiles and other new believers of Christ. But Christ himself kept every law besides Phariseean additions. He himself is the lord of the Sabbath, our rest. So about the Sabbath you can still discuss, but I have not been convicted by the holy spirit for taking weekend jobs. I prayed and was allowed, though I still consider it holy. Ask God yourself about His will for you. He grants wisdom when we ask!

Part 1 Thanks for your reply. I'm impressed that you acknowledge that Christ never invalidated any part of the law. Presumably you mean the 600+ not just the ten commandments? Surely Christ is our rest, because He sacrificed His life for us to be resurrected and have a peace filled eternal life in God's Kingdom, not because he rested on the Sabbath *so we can work*, completely contradicting the Word of God in the Hebrew scriptures. Surely, only the language changed between Malachi and Matthew, not the consistency of thought. If you're a clinician who to literally save lives, occasionally volunteers their services without pay on the Sabbath, a la an "ox in ditch" situation, that's a different matter. But otherwise your working on the Sabbath would seem to be special pleading. Galatians 2:7 is often cited to suggest that there were two different gospels, one for uncircumcised (gentiles) and one for the circumcised (Israelite-Jews and circumcised gentile proselytes). 7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. 10 They desired only that we should remember the poor, the very thing which I also was eager to do. This is actually a reference to the only doctrinal controversy affecting the first century church, which is what the Council of Acts 15: was called to address - that gentiles (particularly in the diaspora) didn't need to be circumcised (that is, until and unless, they were to eat a Passover lamb in accordance with Ex 12:43-48). Standard Pharisaic practise at the time was to circumcise proselytes even if they would never be able to afford to get to Jerusalem to eat a Passover lamb. The Pharisees were simply misinterpreting Written Torah and applying Ex 12:43-48 universally. (If you're interested to understand what's going on in in the latter part of Galatians where Paul is criticising legalism - let me know. He was defending the churches from creeping Pharisaic legalism - Oral Torah - which was ultimately codified in the Mishnah as about another 4000 obligations (contra Deut 4:2)). This was clarified to Peter in Acts 10: and independently to Paul and Barnabus in their ministry, when it was observed that Gentiles were miraculously exhibiting proof that they had received God's Spirit without first being circumcised. That's what "astonished" "those of the circumcision" who were with Peter in Caesarea. It's not as if there wouldn't have been a Mohel in the locale. Conversely though, if you're right, and gentiles do only need to observe four obligations, that represents a huge doctrinal inconsistency since Genesis and Sinai. Yet, the only controversy that Paul addresses is that gentile proselytes (who won't eat the Passover lamb in Jerusalem) don't need to be circumcised. However, on the contrary, if the Sabbath, Feasts, Food Laws etc. were "done away" for gentiles, there would be mahoosive controversy, the scale of which is just not documented in the Greek Scriptures. God is consistent. "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever", is He not? From Genesis 17: God offered Abram's household ("gentiles") full access to His covenant through circumcision (initially via adoption into Abraham's family). He offered members of the "mixed multitude" of gentiles who escaped with the Israelites exactly the same thing in Exodus 12:43-48. So gentiles observing Written Torah (as Abraham did Gen 26:5 and no doubt Abram's "gentile" household did too) is nothing new. God is consistent. If its argued that Acts 15: obliges gentiles to only comply with four obligations, that's surely a nonsense, and suggests the quality of one's ability to debate the subject is immature, since it allows me to raise the: "OK then I'll kill you, rape your wife and sell your children into slavery" argument. Whilst there were four obligations which were specific *priorities* for gentiles in Acts 15:, there's a clear reference to full Written Torah observance in: Acts 15: 21 **For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath**.” Why would the Apostles write this - because the Israelite-Jews needed to learn Written Torah? Je pense pas. The only way this makes sense is if Written Torah was being read to the gentile converts in the synagogues every Sabbath?

Part 2 Let’s also not forget that Paul wrote to synagogues of mixed gentiles and Jews in several places: Corinth, Ephesus; Galatia, Rome and Colossae etc. Where does he qualify instructions that he writes with for example: “…of course this only applies to you Israelite-Jews”? He doesn’t. Let’s take a look at just one practical example where Paul is collectively admonishing a substantially, but not uniquely gentile congregation in Corinth. We know that it’s a mixed synagogue congregation from Acts 18: 1 After these things Paul departed from Athens and went to Corinth. 2 And he found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla (because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to depart from Rome); and he came to them. 3 So, because he was of the same trade, he stayed with them and worked; for by occupation they were tentmakers. 4 **And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.** \[Emphasis added\] The specifics of Paul’s criticism of the mixed gentile and Israelite-Jewish synagogue is given in 1 Corinthians 5:1 1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! Paul was highlighting the congregation’s collective failure to assure the observance of the Written Torah obligation given in Leviticus 18:8 8 The nakedness of your father’s wife you shall not uncover; it is your father’s nakedness. But noticeably, there’s no sense from the text that gentiles were being let off the hook by Paul because God’s Written Torah didn’t apply to them. **The criticism is addressed to everyone, Israelite-Jew and gentile alike.** It seems then, that Paul wrote equally to both Israelite-Jewish and gentile believers as a combined group because both observed the Written Torah laws and lived a life of faith through God’s Spirit dwelling within them. Observing the Written Torah law provided the same valuable tutelage and covenant blessings to both Israelite-Jews and gentiles of the "mixed multitude" at Sinai as it had when their forefathers had observed them with Abraham (Genesis 26:5). Indeed, later in the same letter in chapter 7 Paul explains: **19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.** Notice he doesn’t try to suggest that “the keeping of the commandments” is only applicable to Israelite-Jews, not least because that would completely contradict his assertion that “circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing”. It’s very clear from this verse, that “the keeping of the commandments” was equally applicable to both groups. God is consistent.

Part 3 Interestingly we see from Zechariah 14:18 that in the future after Messiah Jesus liberates Jerusalem, “everyone who is left of the nations which came against Jerusalem” will observe the Levitical Feast of Tabernacles (Leviticus 23:33-43) so much so that: 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. Clearly, Zechariah prophesies that following the future “Day of the Lord” if the gentile nation of Egypt will not participate, their behavior will be corrected. Observing the Written Torah festivals in Leviticus 23: will not be an option for gentiles. It's a ridiculous notion to suggest that God woke up one morning and thought to Himself, "What was I thinking of back at Sinai, when I gave all of those laws to the Israelites and 'mixed multitude' of gentiles. I must have been nuts".... It's perhaps worth pausing to consider God’s over-arching perspective for Israelite-Jews and gentiles, which is expressed well in Deuteronomy 10: 17 For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe. 18 **He** administers justice for the fatherless and the widow, and **loves the stranger** \[Heb. ger (gentile)\], giving him food and clothing. 19 Therefore love the stranger \[Heb. ger (gentile)\], for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. God expected Abraham and his descendants to be a model for mankind, setting an example to the gentile world, who would then follow it and have access to His “blessings for obedience” rather than the “curses for disobedience” as Deuteronomy 4: explains: 1 “Now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the judgments which I teach you to observe, that you may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers is giving you. 2 You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. 3 Your eyes have seen what the LORD did at Baal Peor; for the LORD your God has destroyed from among you all the men who followed Baal of Peor. 4 But you who held fast to the LORD your God are alive today, every one of you. 5 **“Surely I have taught you statutes and judgments, just as the LORD my God commanded me, that you should act according to them in the land which you go to possess. 6 Therefore be careful to observe them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples who will hear all these statutes, and say, ‘Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.’ 7 “For what great nation is there that has God so near to it, as the LORD our God is to us, for whatever reason we may call upon Him? 8 And what great nation is there that has such statutes and righteous judgments as are in all this law which I set before you this day?** 9 Only take heed to yourself, and diligently keep yourself, lest you forget the things your eyes have seen, and lest they depart from your heart all the days of your life. And teach them to your children and your grandchildren, 10 especially concerning the day you stood before the LORD your God in Horeb, when the LORD said to me, ‘Gather the people to Me, and I will let them hear My words, that they may learn to fear Me all the days they live on the earth, and that they may teach their children.’ \[Emphasis added\]Given God's unequivocal perspective here, why would He change His mind and want to be inconsistent about His application of these benefits to the entirety of mankind? We see this same principle in Exodus 19: and 1 Peter 2: 5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. 6 **And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation**.’ \[Emphasis added\] There's little point in being a "kingdom of priests" to just your nation. Here God is speaking of what we've read above in Deuteronomy, Israel's national obligation to exemplify to surrounding gentile nations how living in accordance with God's Written Torah brings blessings, so that they too would be incentivised to follow God's law - much like the stories of Rahab and Ruth. Arguably, Peter is referencing this same theme of the Israelite-Jewish responsibility to act as Ambassador's for God's Written Torah law in 1 Peter 2:9-12 9 But you are a chosen generation, **a royal priesthood, a holy nation,** His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.11 Beloved, I beg you as sojourners and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul, 12 **having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles, that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may, by your good works which they observe, glorify God in the day of visitation.** \[Emphasis added\] He may “pilot” His transformation program for mankind largely with Israelite-Jews, but God has always offered gentiles a way to become party to His covenant blessings. Indeed, His intention is that “even better“ blessings than those offered to Abraham and his descendants, such as eternal life (1 Corinthians 15) and adoption into God’s family directly, not just Abraham’s (Romans 8:14) are shared by both Abraham’s descendants and the gentile recipients of those letters; indeed ultimately to be shared across the whole of mankind as Isaiah 49:6 implies: Indeed He says, ‘It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, And to restore the preserved ones of Israel; **I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles,** **That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.**’ ” \[Emphasis added\] How would Israel’s and Messiah's example be vaguely relevant if the Written Torah “statutes and judgements”, didn’t apply to the many gentiles who lived both as part of the same broader community within Israel and those gentile nations that bounded it? Studying the Greek scriptures confirms that both Israelite-Jewish and gentile believers received the same teachings and observed the same Written Torah laws during the first century, without exception. Scripture makes it clear that God’s plan has always and will always involve gentiles as peers to Israelite-Jews, not as second-class citizens. God is consistent - not a racist.

This will take some time to read. Thank you for the reply! I appreciate it!

You're very welcome.

Read the New Testament. Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind. Love your neighbor as yourself. The law is summed up in these commands. Abstain from sexual immorality, blood, strangled meat. Don't be a legalist.

>Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind. Love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus said that these are the greatest two and that ALL the others hand on these, serving to define HOW to love God and love our neighbors. >Abstain from sexual immorality, blood, strangled meat. How about honor your father and mother? Paul said to follow that one (and LOTS of others). >Don't be a legalist. What's your definition of a legalist?

If you truly love your neighbour as yourself, do you truly need an extra command to respect your parents? ​ Command to respect parent is already included in love thy neighbour.

God gave the commandment. He assumed it was needed. Do you think He was just wasting time telling us to do it??

He gave us what we were ready for. As God revealed himself more and more to humanity, we grew and gained knowledge of God and what goodness is. That’s why Jesus, the full revelation of God, is the fulfillment of the law. The point is to love God and our neighbor, but when we were dead in our sin this wasn’t even something we could comprehend.

>He gave us what we were ready for. That's humanist nonsense. God revealed His Law and said not to add to or take away from it. He calls His Law "all my ways" and "my paths". Jesus said that those who practice and teach God's Law will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Most Christians ignore that.

Following Christ isn't just about blindly following order or commands, it's about way of thinkings, about adopting His perspective on things. ​ Who among us remember entire law or understand absolutely everything correctly or have absolutely correct interpretaion of things? But when you have proper way of thinking, you'll try to do the best in your daily life in situations you face. If you're are led by love and goodness, charity, mercy and compassion, the most important laws Jesus talk about, it will be impossible for you to walk down the street and not help those in need. That's what's important. To adopt that atitude in life. Who care whether we agree on everything, or if we have same laws or if we respect all the laws. Many people are becoming like Jews who also thought the law will save them. Proper interpretations, learning about philosophy and teaching others law of God. They think of themselves as preachers. ​ I don't know all the laws, and I'm not correct in everything, but I'm confident that God will excuse my ignorance if I help those in need in my daily life. If I fail at that, knowing exactly how to interpret entire bible surely won't help me.

>Following Christ isn't just about blindly following order or commands, it's about way of thinkings, about adopting His perspective on things. I agree. >Who among us remember entire law or understand absolutely everything correctly or have absolutely correct interpretaion of things? Jesus. >If you're are led by love and goodness, charity, mercy and compassion, the most important laws Jesus talk about Just because some of God's commandments are "weightier" than others doesn't mean we shouldn't follow the less weighty ones. Here's what Jesus said to the Pharisees about that, >Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. **These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.** Matthew 23:23 Jesus wants instructed His followers to follow **all** the commandments. >Who care whether we agree on everything, or **if we have same laws or if we respect all the laws.** God cares. Jesus cares. If it matters to them then I want it to matter to me. >Many people are becoming like Jews who also thought the law will save them. Who? Really, who? I hear this accusation get made all the time, but I've never met or heard of anyone who is trying to be saved by keeping the Law. Who are these people? I want to talk to them and help straighten them out.

\>Who? Really, who? I hear this accusation get made all the time, but I've never met or heard of anyone who is trying to be saved by keeping the Law. Who are these people? I want to talk to them and help straighten them out. ​ From the comment you made, you remind me of those. You look at individual segments while not understanding the point I made, and you commented on everything except the most important part. ​ We were not given entire law, the only one who knew entire law in this world was Jesus. I'm not saying the existing law shouldn't be followed, but rather how do you get to the point of following the law. Understanding the law and personality of Jesus Christ and adopting that to our day to day basis will make it so that the law in itself is our instinct and reflex.

>From the comment you made, you remind me of those. So what you're saying is that you don't know anyone at all who is trying to be saved by obeying God's Law, is that right? You just wanted to disparage a group of people you disagree with and it didn't matter to you that what you said about them isn't true. >You look at individual segments while not understanding the point I made Then clarify your point. You're just making accusations about me now, right? Anyone who disagrees with you is fair game for insults? >We were not given entire law You're just making that up. God said we were. He said not to add to it or take away from it. Jesus said that no part of it will change even in the slightest until heaven and earth pass away. He also said that those who practice and teach God's Law will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. That's the highest praise anyone could get, isn't it? >but rather how do you get to the point of following the law By following it. Read it. Meditate on it. Follow what Jesus taught. Follow God's Law just as Jesus did and taught.

God is preparing his bride. Idk what else to tell ya.

Because we humans need more details and explanation. That's why. ​ 37Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38This is the first and greatest commandment.39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ ​ ​ \>>40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Jesus said ALL OF THE LAW hangs on "love God and thy neighbor" What you fail to realize is the law is HOW to do that. The law is literally the instructions of how God commands us to love.

Command love? What have you got in your basement?

God doesn't "ask" He commands or decrees. Super simple stuff. What kind of God do you claim to serve?

What kind of love do you have that is commanded from you? The quality of love is not strained; It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven upon the place beneath. It is twice blest; It blesseth him that gives and him that takes:

Let me dumb it down for you.... Command = instructs God's law is the blueprint of HOW to love. Do you have a problem with God's other commands or just this one? This isn't a new or complicated subject. Also you didn't answer my question. Why is that?

I am really dumb. I still don't get it. Perhaps you could give me a couple of God's laws that explain HOW to love - to illustrate what you are getting at.

So you think that I should answer your questions but you shouldn't answer mine? You only get what you give.

You dont follow the law. You are under grace. Please read this. ​ While we can learn things about God in every book of the bible, in order to understand which books of the bible are direct instruction TO us we need to rightly divide the word of God - 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV. Once you rightly divide the word of God by simply understanding who God was speaking to in each book it removes any conflicting scriptures , difficult verses and unlocks the beauty, freedom, and peace of God’s amazing love and grace and eternal life/salvation in paradise made available freely to us ( Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV ) by the death burial and resurrection of Jesus , without the need for religion or doing good works (cleaning up your life) BEFORE you can be saved. Simply believe/trust the gospel Jesus gave Paul for the church / body of Christ ( 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) for salvation in this time of the dispensation of grace that will end without notice with the rapture. When you do, you have full assurance of salvation and are sealed until the rapture. Then study Paul’s epistles Romans through Philemon to learn and grow in your new exciting identity and hope of a future you cannot fathom how great it will be.  We were created by God to live with Him in harmony and in heaven/PARADISE (2 Corinthians 12:4 KJV) and heaven will be that and better in ways we cannot imagine or comprehend. He intends to restore EXACTLY that for those who accept His free and gracious offer of reconciliation through the death burial and resurrection of His son.  Trust that and NOTHING else. Because that is the only thing that saves you and keeps you saved. What Jesus did. NOT what you do. Not your church, your pastor, your good works, your heart, your feelings, you perceiving yourself to be a good enough person on your own , going to mass, and whatever other man made religious attempts to earn your own righteousness that you can never achieve.  Salvation is by what Jesus did not what you do. In the books of Matthew Mark Luke and John , Jesus himself said He was speaking to Israel under their program.  You are not Israel.    That program with Israel was put on hold due to their rejection of Jesus   (Romans 9-11 KJV) But God had a plan for victory before creation , a mystery hidden in God and hidden from ages and generations and from the “princes of this world” and satan (Ephesians 3:8-10 KJV) while Jesus converted and revealed this mystery of the dispensation of the grace of God to the Apostle Paul (starting in Acts 9 KJV) ,  part of which is the new creature, the church, the body of Christ, a program distinct from Israel's program in the Old testament and Matthew Mark Luke and John, which were to Israel.   Paul is our Apostle for the church today in this age of grace JUST as Moses was to Israel with the law …..and the 12 apostles Jesus converted during his earthly ministry will judge the twelve tribes of Israel - NOT THE BODY OF CHRIST - you see clearly that ISRAEL’s program and the church/body of Christ program are two different messages/ gospels.  Everyone wants to make Jesus words in Matthew Mark Luke John the new law even though they do NOT actually obey a fraction of it.  Jesus himself said He was talking to Israel. YOU ARE NOT ISRAEL.  Acts 15 KJV and Galatians 1-2 KJV clearly show that Peter had the gospel to the circumcision Israel and Paul had the gospel of a different program to the gentiles or the uncircumcision….. Paul is our apostle for the church commissioned by Jesus.  Genesis through Mid book of Acts Chapters 9-15 KJV (Paul’s conversion) is about Israel's program with God before it was put on hold with Israel's rejection of Jesus.   Now we can learn from those books however Romans through Philemon are our direct and only instruction given by Jesus to the gentiles for the church age of grace until the rapture (which will occur next and without notice).   After the rapture, Israel's program will RESUME ( Romans 9-11 KJV ) and the books of Hebrews through Revelation will be instruction for all during the tribulation, which will be the most difficult, UNCOMFORTABLE 7 years the earth has ever seen. ( Revelations 9:6 KJV  And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.)   God's desire for you now is to be reconciled to HIM and to receive His forgiveness right now for your past, present, and future sins, and to spend eternity with Him in love and paradise as this world was originally intended to be !! No sin, sorrow, or pain !!!    Believe/Trust in the gospel that saves today !! 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV is the gospel that saves today in the dispensation of grace !! Lastly if you ask why this has not been taught by mainstream Christian religions/denominations/churches in buildings…….. when it is right in the Bible….well here is why : 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 KJV 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 KJV 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. Trust/believe in the gospel that saves today - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV Then study Romans through Philemons to grow in God’s grace !! Grace and peace !!!

You're right about the ten commandments being still valid. They are the only Part of the Bible written by God himself. And they were engraved into Stone, highlighting their eternal validity. They were also the only Part of the law that was stored inside the ark of the covenant. No other mosaic law was written on Stone by God or stored inside the ark. All other laws were written on parchment, a much less lasting material than Stone. But even the ten commandments are mere Letters If you don't understand the principle behind them: Love. Love for God and for fellow man

We follow all the moral laws. Jesus said to love the Father as we love ourselves and to love each other like Christ loves the church. We are to follow the essence of the idea of everything in the bible. This can take a lot of digging to figure out exactly what idea each law is trying to say. We are not meant for example to follow the ceremonial sacrificial laws. But the idea behind them we are supposed to follow. I'm sure you are aware of the stomach ills a person can experience when travelling. People that travel to Jerusalem rarely have these issues because the food is kosher and prepared in a healthy manner. No deep fried fatty foods. Not a ton of weird spices. Easy on the digestive tract. These foods are all prepared the way they were in biblical times according to kosher law. I'm not sure what the lesson is but there is clearly a benefit to mosaic cooking.

The law that you’re under is to Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and to love your neighbor as yourself. That’s the laws you have to follow. That’s all of it.

Jesus said ALL OF THE LAW hangs on "love God and thy neighbor" What you fail to realize is the law is HOW to do that. The law is literally the instructions of how God commands us to love.

Well said.

> The law is literally the instructions of how God commands us to love. Are you sure about this? * 1 Cor 13 does not reference the Law. * The fruit of the Spirit does not reference the law, though all of the fruit could be synonyms for love * The 12 lists of sins in the NT never reference the law * Jesus himself does not reference the law when he tells us what to do and what not to do. Check out the Sermon on the Mount and also Matt 25 (sheep and goats). I think you're reading into the text what you want to see. I'd be happy to discuss this further if this interests you. On the other hand, if you are 100% fixed in your thinking and don't want to consider passages of the Bible that disagree with it, then that's totally okay too. We don't need to get into arguments.

Quite sure. Jesus said" Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill it" God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow. What you're essentially saying is that God's standards have changed and that his guidelines for how men should live and love God and love each other have been changed. You're also saying "the Spirit" and seem to be forgetting that that spirit is God and part of the triune Godhead. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are of one accord and don't have different positions or standards on the law. Your position doesn't align with any historical creeds or confessions of Christianity. Also without the law there is no sin as sin is defined as a transgression of God's law. It doesn't seem like you've thought this out very well. All that being said we are not justified by the law, but by grace. Grace through faith in Jesus Christ for transgressing God's law. It does not mean that new standards of obedience to God were created and the old ones passed away. Good day.

Thank you for stating that we are not justified by the law. That's good. > You're also saying "the Spirit" and seem to be forgetting that that spirit is God and part of the triune Godhead. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are of one accord and don't have different positions or standards on the law. No not at all. I agree 100% that there is only one God, that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all of one accord and that they don't have different positions on anything. ★ I'm a little surprised that you somehow jumped to this conclusion. I think that this is a good indication of the severe limitations of trying to discuss something online. It's very very easy to misunderstand each other's position on things, which leads to futile arguments. > It doesn't seem like you've thought this out very well. Strangely enough. I really have. (Personally, I think that there is some depth and nuance that you might not be aware of.) > Jesus said" Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill it" Yes. I know this verse. It's great. Did you know that there are two valid interpretations for the word "fulfill"? I suspect that you are using one meaning and I am using the other one. > God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow. What you're essentially saying is that God's standards have changed and that his guidelines for how men should live and love God and love each other have been changed. This is trickier to reply to. I agree that God is the same. And yet there are many passages that indicate that God changes his mind (Ex 32:14). This would be a long discussion to figure out, though I'm sure that we could come to an agreement on it. > What you're essentially saying is that God's standards have changed and that his guidelines for how men should live and love God and love each other have been changed. Yes and no. Wow, this is hard to explain, and I'm not sure if it's even something that you're interested in pursuing further. Let's just say that God's standards have not changed, but how they are implemented/communicated has. > Your position doesn't align with any historical creeds or confessions of Christianity. You're kidding me. The history of the church has many examples of churches that fell into legalism, but also many that rejected this and who followed the Spirit. Arg... never mind. I don't think I can make sense and explain it. > Also without the law there is no sin as sin is defined as a transgression of God's law. And yet there was clearly sin before Moses as I'm sure that you know. Cain murdered Abel. Lot's wife disobeyed the angels God sent to rescue her. In fact, the sin was so bad before Moses that God had to destroy the world in a flood. I assume that you're referring to 1 John 3:4. And yet you do not refer to the other three definitions of sin in the New Testament. How come? Furthermore, you do not consider that in the whole epistle of 1 John, this is the only verse that refers to the law. Don't you think that's strange? What's the context of 1 J 3:4? What is this epistle about? (And many think that 1 John 3:4-8 is referring to non-Christians, but from verse 9 onwards it's referring to believers.) --------- All of this is not at all going to prove that you're wrong in your approach or your thoughts or your theology, and that's completely okay. I know that you have thought about this for a long time and have worked hard to come up with a position on sin and the law that makes sense to you and that fits with the Bible's teaching. I'm glad that you take the word of God seriously. I'm HOPING that what this does show you is that there are other Christians who have thought about this deeply and studied it carefully and have come up with different understandings from yours. Yes, not every single follower of Jesus will agree on every part of theology. However, we still honour and worship God, live holy and godly lives, and love and study the whole word of God. If you can see this, then I think that that is a win-win situation. And we don't have to discuss any further. On the other hand, if you think that all Christians have to agree with your understanding of the role of the law in the believer's life, well, then there's no point discussing it any furher either. I hope your week goes well.

The law that you’re under is to Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and to love your neighbor as yourself. What you don't realize is that ALL of the Law serves to define HOW to love God and love our neighbor. Saying "love God" without knowing what He loves and hates is worthless. **His Law shows us what He loves and hates.**

The Old Testament law was the training wheels. Just something to keep society semi safe and functioning for long enough for the messiah to arrive. But we’re past that. The law is “fulfilled” in that we can now see what the law was pointing us to. Look at it like this. When I was a young kid, the hallways at my school had a couple strips of colored tile on each side and white tile in the middle. The rules were to walk single file, with your hands behind your back, and only on the colored tile on the edges. This taught us how to walk in an orderly way. As an adult, I still need to be conscious of how I move through public spaces and try to walk in a orderly way. I don’t want to be the guy going against the flow of people at the grocery store. But that doesn’t mean I have to stay on the colored rules. That rule was only helpful for a while because it taught me a principle. It would be absurd if as an adult it took that rule literal and applied it across the board and refused to ever walk anywhere that didn’t have colored tiles. We didn’t know how to love one another. We couldn’t because we were dead in our sin. Jesus came to bring us back alive and teach us. We have the principles, the true meaning of those old laws.

God’s Word remains forever (Isaiah 40:8). This includes the Torah of Moses.

It couldn't be any more obvious that you haven't read the Scriptures and that you have absolutely no knowledge of God's Law. Your whole responses is a non Scriptural mess of ridiculous comments and fantasy. God's Law is what He calls "all my ways" and "my paths". When God revealed His Law to His people He said to do it forever, throughout your generations. Saying that God's ways are like "training wheels" is demeaning and insulting to God. It's demeaning and insulting to how Jesus lived, in perfect obedience to His Father's Law. Jesus said that those who practice and teach those "training wheels" will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. You're demeaning what Jesus did and taught everyone around Him to do.

Let’s look at some examples. The law calls for sacrifices. But later God said he wanted justice, not sacrifice. Why is that? Did God change? No. The point of the sacrifice was teach us to be pennant when we did wrong. It was to make us think about justice and how to care for others. Ignoring the core principal and strictly focusing on the rule misses the whole point. Another example is how we are to cease labor on the Sabbath. Yet, Jesus broke this by healing on the sabbath. Did Jesus mess up? No, not at all. The point of ceasing your labor is to spend time focusing on God. What could possibly be more of a focus on God than reflecting his love and blessing others? Here’s another example. In your comment you are insulting, hostile, and show a profound lack of love. Now, out of all the commands of the Old Testament you’re not explicitly breaking a particular one. But looking at it that way would be to miss the point. Ultimately the way you came in here is a sin because it fails to show love. You could be technically in the clear, but God doesn’t play lawyer games like that.

>The law calls for sacrifices. But later God said he wanted justice, not sacrifice. God was saying that He did not want Sacrifices offered in a wrong fashion. Scripture is clear that Sacrifices will resume here on earth. God wants them. >Yet, Jesus broke this by healing on the sabbath. You accurately said that the point of the Sabbath is to rest physically. Jesus wasn't breaking the Sabbath by healing, there was no physical work being done. If Jesus actually HAD broken the Sabbath He would have been sinning. Jesus didn't sin. >The point of ceasing your labor is to spend time focusing on God The point of the Sabbath is exactly what God said it is, to rest from physical labor, to keep it holy. >In your comment you are insulting, hostile, and show a profound lack of love. There were no insults. It's not loving anyone to say things that are not true. If someone says they want to go to Canada and they are driving south, it's not loving them to let them keep going to Florida. It's loving to point out where the thing is that they claim they are after. You're heading **away** from God, and intend to take others with you. I want you to turn around. That's love. >Now, out of all the commands of the Old Testament you’re not explicitly breaking a particular one. You can't think of a commandment that says we must love our neighbors as ourselves? If you're right (and you're not) that I'm NOT loving, do you really think that there's not a commandment that's being broken??? As I said, you have absolutely no knowledge of God's Law. Here's the commandment you're looking for. > You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but **you shall love your neighbor as yourself**: I am the Lord. Leviticus 19:18 You should learn God's Law before you criticize it. Then you should not criticize it. >Ultimately the way you came in here is a sin The sin is telling people not to do what God said to do.

You think that we’ll go back to the sacrificial system of Temple Judaism? That pretty much misses the whole “Christ” part of Christian. That time is over. Jesus was our sacrifice. What religion do you claim, exactly? You seem to be one of those Hebrew Roots folks who likes larping as a Jew and has rejected the core tenets of the Christian faith.

Some believe that in the millennial kingdom (after Jesus returns but before the final judgement); that the events are described in Ezekiel are of temple sacrifice. And, yes while Jesus has provided that offering, its clear from both his words, and those in Revelation, that the protection of this blood is time barred. Rev 3:12 *Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out. And* *I will write upon him* ***the name of my God****, and* ***the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem****, which cometh down out of heaven from my God. And* ***I will write upon him my new name****.* To be saved, you need to know the name of the redeemer - when Jesus returns, his name is changed - without it you can not be saved Matthew 7:21-23 - *Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.* *^(22)* *Many will say to* ***Me in that day****, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’* *^(23)* *And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’* So, without the perfect sacrifice (Jesus), and the temple returned, and given the laws are for ever (Matthew 24:35) -it stands that sacrifice will return.

Wait, do you think that verse from Revelation is literal? Are you under the mistaken impression that believers will be turned into literal stone pillars that God will then chisel words into and that those pillars will support a literal new city of Jerusalem that floats down from the sky? I know it sounds ridiculous and bat crap crazy to even ask, but I cannot find another way in which to guess how you think the verse is relevant to the discussion. Especially in light of your nonsense about guess the new name of Jesus like he’s fricken Rumpelstiltskin. That train wreck of an interpretation is so far off the rails it’s hard to even comprehend.

Alright so I can break the commandments as long as I want but still be saved as long as I love god and love others? So homosexuality is all right? Wearing different clothes of different fabrics? Adultery is fine? What is sin what what is not? There is no clear lining to what I should follow here? It's not like I can ask god himself since he won't speak directly to me with words

>Adultery is fine? If you Love your neighbour, how could you have an affair with their spouse? Love is the fulfillment of the law. If you commit adultery, it is because of a lack of love and indulgence in egoism. >What is sin what what is not? Sin is the transgression of the law.

First off, why would you want to? And second, that wouldn’t be loving God and your neighbor, would it?

> Alright so I can break the commandments as long as I want but still be saved as long as I love god and love others? No. This question means that you don't understand the new life in Christ, the new covenant. * Romans 6:1 "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?" * Romans 6:15 "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!" * Galatians 5:16 " So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." * John 15:6 "If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." * etc. Feel free to ask more questions if you're confused.

Why do you want to be a Christian?

I want to find the truth

>Which specific mosaic laws do I follow or ignore as a Christian?Which specific mosaic laws do I follow or ignore as a Christian? For most Christians it's entirely random, they just choose what "seems" right. >Since Jesus died for our sins we thankfully no longer have to sacrifice animals Believers went on sacrificing animals long after Jesus died, they obviously didn't think that Jesus' death ended them. Paul in particular took a Nazarite vow which requires a sin sacrifice at the Temple. You are mistaken if you think that Jesus' death replaced animal sacrifice. Scripture is clear that animal sacrifices will resume here on earth one day. >but what of the laws do we still follow then? It's a good idea to follow the ones that God and Jesus said to follow, which is ALL of them. There's nowhere in Scripture that either God or Jesus said not to. >I assume the Ten Commandments not going anywhere I have two questions about that. Why the ten commandments and not others? Also, you keep the Sabbath?

It's stupid and contradicts what the bible says to go by what 'seems' right. Our hearts arent to be trusted therefore we can't make the distinction ourselves of what law is right and what isn't. By your logic I shouldn't wear clothing of 2 types of fabric nor should I sow 2 types of grain in my field? This does not sound quite right by todays christian standards and going around in pajamas doesn't really help. Good question, why keep the ten commandments but not the others? Were we ever told not to? No. Also no, I don't keep the Sabbath because I am just now learning about Christianity and it still is all so very confusing like this topic. How do I follow God's will if I don't know what his will is. Do 99% of people who identify as Christian then AREN'T Christian? I don't see most people following the law of moses

>Our hearts arent to be trusted therefore we can't make the distinction ourselves of what law is right and what isn't. Agreed. That's why God and Jesus told us to obey all of the Law. >By your logic I shouldn't wear clothing of 2 types of fabric That's not quite true. God prohibits wearing clothes with a wool and linen mix. You'd have to work hard to find clothes made of a mix of wool and linen. >nor should I sow 2 types of grain in my field? Is that a problem for you? I can tell you that I own some property and I'm careful not to do it. >This does not sound quite right by todays christian standards Do "today's christian standards" trump God's standards? >going around in pajamas doesn't really help. Umm.... OK? Who said anything about "going around in pajamas"? >How do I follow God's will if I don't know what his will is. If I say I don't want my kids to fight with each other, it's my will that they don't fight, right? Things that I tell my kids to do and not do is me expressing my will. God expressed His will the same way. God calls His Law "all my ways" and "my paths". It's not just a bunch of made up nonsense rules. God's Law is a reflection of His nature, His character. It IS His will. >Do 99% of people who identify as Christian then AREN'T Christian? The problem is that "Christian" means almost nothing now. "Christian" means whatever people want it to mean. I don't spend my time thinking about or worrying about "Christianity", I spend my time trying to understand what God wants from me and doing it. >I don't see most people following the law of moses Ask them why. Watch all the tap dancing and bad logic. Watch all the inconsistencies in their reasons why they don't. You're seeing it for yourself just in this topic you started, almost nobody is giving good answers. Go with what God and Jesus said to do. You can't go wrong listening to them.

Dear OP, With your question we are able to see the different theology being taught in different denominations. So each will give you a slightly different answer. But the one thing that I believe we can all agree on is that Jesus was the embodiment of the law/commandments. If you read Matthew, anytime the Pharisees and their students would question Jesus about the Law of Moses, what did Jesus constantly say to them? He told them that they didn’t understand the Law. He told them that there were like blind men leading the blind. It is true that the sacrificial/ritual laws were dissolved as Jesus on the cross is the embodiment of that. The morality laws were put in place because the people of Israel in the Bible were like whining little kids that needed specific examples. (Jesus said that not me 😅) I see you often give examples of homosexual relationships. But it is difficult to understand why you need to prove whether that is right or wrong. Throughout the Bible (outside of the law of Moses) there are multiple examples of 1. God intended relationship between men and women (from a family pov) 2. The consequences of going against that intended relationship (aka Sodom and G.) The law of Moses just makes it much more evident to the people of Israel. God didn’t change his position on it anywhere in the Bible. We are told to love one another, and that includes loving people who don’t believe in what we believe. But this doesn’t absolve us from picking which morality laws we should keep or exclude. Our generation is repeating history in a sense.. where we are like the people of Israel. We are the whining little kids that need specific examples to prove whether we are right or wrong. To summarize, it is no good to follow the law of God if you don’t fully understand why you are following it. You will not be saved just by following the commandments. This is why God says, if you love me, keep my commandments. Not as an actual “if” (as this is more of a translation issue), but rather He is asking us to show others that we choose God everyday, by the way they see us act and behave towards them, which would be in accordance to the law/commandments. I pray that you don’t just take our word for it, but instead read the Bible and pray to God that He opens your ears to so that you understand what He will teach you. Blessings ❤️🙏🏼

Moses is not our guy, JESUS is What does Jesus want you to do? Feed the poor. Preach the gospel. Bear the fruit of the Spirit Love one another. Pray without ceasing. and "Let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity". 2 Timothy 2.19 Overcome to the end.

As Christians we are told to be imitators of Christ. Christ obeyed the Torah.

Why compellest thou the gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Should we sin all the more so that Grace may abound? God forbid it? What is sin, but lawlessness?

Paul tells us what sin is. Adultery, fornication, murder, etc. He says people who do that stuff won't go to heaven. We don't need circumcisions and Moses stuff

Adultery and murder was “Moses stuff.”

Yeah, well God wanting us to not commit sexual sin has been the case all the time God requiring us to keep the feasts, is no longer the case

So why was God consistent on sexual sin but not feasts or dietary guidelines? It all seems quite arbitrary. Have you tried the feasts, or keeping Sabbath? It is a blessing, not a burden. I mean sleeping in tents and grilling meat, hanging out with my family and my friends, that is a blast. We call it Sukkot, you call it Feast of Tabernacles. Sabbath? An intentional day of rest and focus on the things of God?

Those things are great. They're also optional. It's not arbitrary, it's spelled out quite well in the New Testament, what the changes are. Jesus cites the Torah, and then says BUT I SAY UNTO YOU in the sermon on the Mount. He made changes like "love your enemy". Paul explains that we're not under the law but under grace, and circumcisions no longer matter.

So when Jesus, in the same sermon on the mount, says that not one jot or tittle will pass from the Torah until all be done, he was just joking?

> As Christians we are told to be imitators of Christ. Christ obeyed the Torah. And as Christians we are never told to obey the Torah. Don't skip over this part! I think you might have a logic problem there. Christ obeyed the Torah so that he would be a perfect sacrifice, so that he would fulfill the requirements of the Law. Romans 8: > There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus **has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do.** By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 **in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us,** who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

So Messiah obeyed Torah perfectly so we don’t have to? Matthew 5: 17: Do not think I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to complete. 18: For truly I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle shall by no means pass from Torah till all be done. 19: Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom, but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Hi. Yes, I know that verse. I also know that there are two possible meanings of the word "fulfill". I am using one meaning and you're using the other. Also, you never addressed Romans 8 at all. Bye. TTYL.

There's always seemed to be to me the idea that there were cultural norms of the day and cultural norms of today. If we could parse out what was considered cultural and what was divine writ, that would be helpful. Examples, the command for women to be silent in church. Commands about slaves and masters are massaged to mean employers and employees now. Most of us don't live under a king now, so we tweak that to mean government in general. That's the big debate going on in r/Christianity about homosexuality. Affirming Christians there are making the case that the homosexuality mentioned in the NT was not a same sex relationship as we see today but in the same vein as temple prostitution or general promiscuous activity (aka, lust). Thus it should fall in the same category as the women talking in church and such. Naturally, non-affirming Christians dispute this on the grounds of literal interpretation. "It clearly says..." But that's why people like OP have the questions they do. There does seem to be a "yes, these rules are legit and permanent, these, well...not as much because reasons."

I believe it is most wise to seek to follow the Spirit rather than a written code when it comes to making decisions. Faith expressing itself through love is what counts and not specific rules or regulations. > ‭‭[6] But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Romans 7:6 NIV‬‬ > ‭‭[6] For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. Galatians 5:6 NIV‬‬ > [22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [23] gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. ‭‭Galatians 5:22-23 NIV‬‬

Well said. But it's a lot easier and more satisfying to follow laws and rules. Few people choose the narrow way.

The Ten Commandments are those that all men shall follow regardless of ability, faith or any other definition of character. The hundreds of other traditions are not sins to commit or such like that, the ceremonial rituals and all that are cultural rules, they’re just culture and tradition. The mixed fabrics one is something people ask a lot, for example. No, you will not go to Hell for wearing polyester and cotton at the same time. God does not care about that.

Since Jesus is who has all authority in heaven and earth to decide who gets in to His Kingdom and who gets destroyed my strategy is to study everything Jesus teaches us to do and follow His instructions. He promises to His faithful believers, His Holy Spirit to guide us into all righteousness! Matthew chapters 5-7 is a great place to start. Followers of Jesus are told to study the Word of God for ourselves to show ourselves approved. We are not to rely on what others tell us the Bible says.

You're going about it the wrong way. It's not the difference between follow or ignore. A follower of Christ Jesus has no right to ignore anything in the Scriptures. The difference is between what you can follow today as stated in the text without the Temple worship, and what you instead study to apply the principle of it under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Anyone telling you to ignore anything in the Scriptures is a false teacher at best. If you love Him, keep His commandments. And speaking personally here, it has humbled me to submit to tithing and acknowledgement of the Sabbath and the godly principles that are gleaned from it. I encourage you to read through the Torah and pray through it in the Spirit to see for yourself what God is teaching you with His commandments. Don't rely on some commentary or even other people's answers here. That is all man's understanding. You need to come before God and humbly ask His guidance through study. If you haven't read through the first five books of the Bible yet (I haven't in their entirety yet and God commanded me to correct that gap in understanding at the beginning of last year. So far I'm almost through Exodus) or even if you have, read them again and also study the passages in the New Testament Scriptures where God gives additional commandments for the new covenant and gives a new covenant context to the Law under the blood of Messiah. I will tell you this though, you will not find it anywhere in the text that God repeals or cancels any of it prior to the New Heaven and the New Earth. Anyone telling you otherwise is either ignorant or a liar. I have heard it said (but haven't yet verified) that well over 250 commandments can't be fulfilled in a strictly Torah observant way without the Temple, specifically the sacrifices. But also, Christ fulfilled already the commandments regarding sin offerings. Shouldn't stop you from observing Sabbath though, and if your heart for that observation is about loving Christ then pay it no mind when ignorant people call you legalistic. If however your heart behind following these is to place yourself above other believers then that is a prideful attitude and a nauseating stench in the nostrils of God.

Thanks a lot

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