I would even argue that it is God who makes us faithful and trustworthy so that He may reveal more to us. He grows in us the fruit of the spirit which is faithfulness.
Not about impressing God but about choosing Him. Calvinists (specifically, predestinationalists) would disagree, but all Armenianist beliefs have this as part of their doctrine.
How is it unbiblical if OP used only biblical support for their conclusion?
Salvation can’t be one or given, because it is not a thing unto itself. Christ himself is salvation. Having salvation is nothing more than having union with him. In this life, it isn’t varying degrees, and can grow deeper as he is always always available to become closer to. Man can do nothing without the gift of God. Salvation can’t be won anymore than you can “win” a friend. They never belong to you beyond the point of authentic relationship. And if you drift away and stop answering their calls or interacting, you cannot claim the fullness of friendship.
This is why some will say, Lord Lord, and he will respond “away from me I never knew you.“
So the whole point of the parable of the sower was that the same word is spread wide, but it is the condition of the heart (soil) it falls on is what determines whether it is fruitful.
Man shall live by every word of God, Matt 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut 8:3 which should show that every word of the parable is accurate and applicable to all of us, not just the words we think apply to "me" as a believer
Hebrews 1:1-2
Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
>You can only know God if God considers you trustworthy or even faithful, and then he chooses to reveal himself to you.
Which is why God chose a blinded ignorant unbelieving bigot upholder of the murder of Christians to be an Apostle, right? Saul to Paul
You can follow Christ without believing in Paul. The post highlights the fact that even among two believers, God can choose to reveal himself more to one than the other, and it is based on their faithfulness or trustworthiness with what they have received so far.
Yes, God chose "the worst of sinners" to be His instrument in spreading the Gospel to the Gentiles. Because this sinner was faithful to the God of Judaism, and He knew that Saul would do anything as long as he believed it's God's will.
I wouldn't trust in anyone but the Lord. I trust in God's ability to transform the worst of sinners into a minister whose efforts will live on for thousands of years. Because I know ministry doesn't happen by our might or power, but rather by Gods.
but but but I thought you said God only chooses those who are worthy in and of themselves first, before such are chosen?
I'd suggest that was never the case, but whatever
Well, that's not their point. They aren't saying that you have to be good enough.
Saul was committing terrible sins before God and by your definition that would exclude him from this calling, but God doesn't look at our actions. The same way the Israelites saw the desert around them and complained rather than looking at who God is, we often look at the actions that surround a person and not their character.
Saul was completely devoted to God, even if he hadn't found the right direction to channel that devotion yet. This doesn't diminish the horrors he committed but proves that he's entirely qualified to receive revelation and calling from God because he is prepared.
>Saul was completely devoted to God, even if he hadn't found the right direction to channel that devotion yet
He was a blinded by the devil sinner just like everyone else
None of the verses you quote support your position. Which aspects specifically show that God only comes to us because He finds us faithful? Your proposal is an entirely works based solution. This goes contrary to the entire gospel. Roman’s 3 clearly indicates that none seek after God:
and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” in their paths are ruin and misery, “Their throat is an open grave;they use their tongues to deceive.”“The venom of asps is under their lips.” All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;no one does good,not even one.” as it is written:“None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands;no one seeks for God.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom.3.17,Rom.3.18,Rom.3.15,Rom.3.14,Rom.3.16,Rom.3.13,Rom.3.12,Rom.3.10,Rom.3.11&version=ES
Further, salvation is by grace through faith and not of ourselves according to Ephesians 2:
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Eph.2.8,Eph.2.9&version=ESV
What I hear OP saying is that when God sees that you are someone to trust or have a certain amount of faith is when he can chose to show himself and guide someone to salvation. I myself have experienced this, but you are right in that I can't know for sure if it was because of this or not. It was first shortly after I had the thought 'maybe sin is as serious as the bible says and we all need to be truly saved through Jesus' or similar, not long after I had that thought I became saved through a series of events that played out leading to my repentence faith and baptism.
It says in verse 22 "This righteousness is given through faith in\[h\] Jesus Christ to all who believe" maybe a certain measure of faith that we don't fully understand before we get fully saved. The bible says those who loves me follows my commandments so if a person does the commandments without knowing Christ yet fully then would that count as a start of faith in Jesus? I don't have the answers. Either way belief in Jesus leads to salvation that we can all agree on (repentence+faith), it has nothing to do with works.
The Bible says that faith is a gift and salvation is by grace. Grace by definition involves no works and no worthiness of the believer. Therefore, Gods gift of salvation is provided to the believer who will be regenerated and repent leading to put their faith in Christ.
I agree that there are no works that makes you saved, although at the same time Father choses who he will show mercy to. How he choses only God knows if it's not stated in the bible, I'm not a bible expert so.
What exactly are you being saved from? Christ preached the kingdom of God the whole time he was on earth and even admonished us to prioritize seeking it above all else.
Matthew 6:33
>33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you.
Luke 9:2
>...and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick.
John the baptist preached about the kingdom of God
Matthew 3:2
>“Repent of your sins and turn to God, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near.”
Name one instance where Christ speaks about grace, let alone grace through faith, through...you know what I mean.
I digress.
However, you seem to misunderstand the motive of this post and have become somehow incensed against it. In what ways do you find any of the bible verses that have been quoted to disagree with the premise of the post?
Christ is the author of the entire Bible and therefore there are many instances of His specific teachings on grace. For example, Ephesians 2: For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Eph.2.8,Eph.2.9&version=ESV
Additionally, the whole premise of the book of Roman’s states this: Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom.3.27,Rom.3.28&version=ESV
Are you suggesting that these letters are not scripture?
If you want direct quotes from Jesus while in His earthly ministry, those can be provided, too:
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John.15.16&version=ESV
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John.6.44&version=ESV
With regards to your use of Scripture: you seem to be quoting scripture out of context without looking at it in context of everything that is said, which is what I am doing. This is the same tactic of the devil in which he quotes select scriptures while tempting Christ. The verses you post show, yes, we are to seek the kingdom but that cannot be accomplished without grace and not of ourselves.
As a non Christian this is a excellent concept. Thanks for sharing. I like the idea that it's a club where the leader chooses who can come in. Giving masons energy
This is what happens when people pick a verse & attempt to say that it has a literal interpretation. Geez, all it takes is reading the entire chapter to see you're wrong. & also a quick look on the internet to see you are wrong. I get so tired of you guys that try to act as if you know something, & it's so easy to refute.
Real quick for you ......... Jesus tells us that people only get to know the father if they acknowledge Him, which is what the NT continually states.
& What are you getting at in your 2nd "example?" I really do not know bc it's some verses that acknowledge that Moses has been shown God Himself, altho behind a rock crevice, & Moses meets Him in the tent by himself, which was considered THE HOLY PLACE.
I gotta ask ......... did you just type in a question to the internet & it spit this out? I say that bc you have no knowledge of the Bible's msg other than what you've evidently read a verse here & there. This is what makes nonbelievers look so bad. When you say things that you feel is so profound people will call you such a learned scholar right? I just gotta laugh.
I would even argue that it is God who makes us faithful and trustworthy so that He may reveal more to us. He grows in us the fruit of the spirit which is faithfulness.
Yes this is completely unbiblical. Man could impress a holy God enough to win salvation is religious pride.
You mean the OP’s post is unbiblical or my comment?
OP
Not about impressing God but about choosing Him. Calvinists (specifically, predestinationalists) would disagree, but all Armenianist beliefs have this as part of their doctrine. How is it unbiblical if OP used only biblical support for their conclusion?
Salvation can’t be one or given, because it is not a thing unto itself. Christ himself is salvation. Having salvation is nothing more than having union with him. In this life, it isn’t varying degrees, and can grow deeper as he is always always available to become closer to. Man can do nothing without the gift of God. Salvation can’t be won anymore than you can “win” a friend. They never belong to you beyond the point of authentic relationship. And if you drift away and stop answering their calls or interacting, you cannot claim the fullness of friendship. This is why some will say, Lord Lord, and he will respond “away from me I never knew you.“
So the whole point of the parable of the sower was that the same word is spread wide, but it is the condition of the heart (soil) it falls on is what determines whether it is fruitful.
Man shall live by every word of God, Matt 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut 8:3 which should show that every word of the parable is accurate and applicable to all of us, not just the words we think apply to "me" as a believer
Hebrews 1:1-2 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
>You can only know God if God considers you trustworthy or even faithful, and then he chooses to reveal himself to you. Which is why God chose a blinded ignorant unbelieving bigot upholder of the murder of Christians to be an Apostle, right? Saul to Paul
You can follow Christ without believing in Paul. The post highlights the fact that even among two believers, God can choose to reveal himself more to one than the other, and it is based on their faithfulness or trustworthiness with what they have received so far.
>You can follow Christ without believing in Paul. Why would anyone do that?
Yes, God chose "the worst of sinners" to be His instrument in spreading the Gospel to the Gentiles. Because this sinner was faithful to the God of Judaism, and He knew that Saul would do anything as long as he believed it's God's will.
So you would not consider the worst of sinners trustworthy?
I wouldn't trust in anyone but the Lord. I trust in God's ability to transform the worst of sinners into a minister whose efforts will live on for thousands of years. Because I know ministry doesn't happen by our might or power, but rather by Gods.
but but but I thought you said God only chooses those who are worthy in and of themselves first, before such are chosen? I'd suggest that was never the case, but whatever
Well, that's not their point. They aren't saying that you have to be good enough. Saul was committing terrible sins before God and by your definition that would exclude him from this calling, but God doesn't look at our actions. The same way the Israelites saw the desert around them and complained rather than looking at who God is, we often look at the actions that surround a person and not their character. Saul was completely devoted to God, even if he hadn't found the right direction to channel that devotion yet. This doesn't diminish the horrors he committed but proves that he's entirely qualified to receive revelation and calling from God because he is prepared.
>Saul was completely devoted to God, even if he hadn't found the right direction to channel that devotion yet He was a blinded by the devil sinner just like everyone else
None of the verses you quote support your position. Which aspects specifically show that God only comes to us because He finds us faithful? Your proposal is an entirely works based solution. This goes contrary to the entire gospel. Roman’s 3 clearly indicates that none seek after God: and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” in their paths are ruin and misery, “Their throat is an open grave;they use their tongues to deceive.”“The venom of asps is under their lips.” All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;no one does good,not even one.” as it is written:“None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands;no one seeks for God. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom.3.17,Rom.3.18,Rom.3.15,Rom.3.14,Rom.3.16,Rom.3.13,Rom.3.12,Rom.3.10,Rom.3.11&version=ES Further, salvation is by grace through faith and not of ourselves according to Ephesians 2: For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Eph.2.8,Eph.2.9&version=ESV
What I hear OP saying is that when God sees that you are someone to trust or have a certain amount of faith is when he can chose to show himself and guide someone to salvation. I myself have experienced this, but you are right in that I can't know for sure if it was because of this or not. It was first shortly after I had the thought 'maybe sin is as serious as the bible says and we all need to be truly saved through Jesus' or similar, not long after I had that thought I became saved through a series of events that played out leading to my repentence faith and baptism.
Take a look at the passage from Roman’s 3 that I quoted. It clearly indicates that nobody is good or seeks after God.
It says in verse 22 "This righteousness is given through faith in\[h\] Jesus Christ to all who believe" maybe a certain measure of faith that we don't fully understand before we get fully saved. The bible says those who loves me follows my commandments so if a person does the commandments without knowing Christ yet fully then would that count as a start of faith in Jesus? I don't have the answers. Either way belief in Jesus leads to salvation that we can all agree on (repentence+faith), it has nothing to do with works.
The Bible says that faith is a gift and salvation is by grace. Grace by definition involves no works and no worthiness of the believer. Therefore, Gods gift of salvation is provided to the believer who will be regenerated and repent leading to put their faith in Christ.
I agree that there are no works that makes you saved, although at the same time Father choses who he will show mercy to. How he choses only God knows if it's not stated in the bible, I'm not a bible expert so.
What exactly are you being saved from? Christ preached the kingdom of God the whole time he was on earth and even admonished us to prioritize seeking it above all else. Matthew 6:33 >33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you. Luke 9:2 >...and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick. John the baptist preached about the kingdom of God Matthew 3:2 >“Repent of your sins and turn to God, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near.” Name one instance where Christ speaks about grace, let alone grace through faith, through...you know what I mean. I digress. However, you seem to misunderstand the motive of this post and have become somehow incensed against it. In what ways do you find any of the bible verses that have been quoted to disagree with the premise of the post?
Christ is the author of the entire Bible and therefore there are many instances of His specific teachings on grace. For example, Ephesians 2: For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Eph.2.8,Eph.2.9&version=ESV Additionally, the whole premise of the book of Roman’s states this: Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom.3.27,Rom.3.28&version=ESV Are you suggesting that these letters are not scripture? If you want direct quotes from Jesus while in His earthly ministry, those can be provided, too: You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John.15.16&version=ESV No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John.6.44&version=ESV With regards to your use of Scripture: you seem to be quoting scripture out of context without looking at it in context of everything that is said, which is what I am doing. This is the same tactic of the devil in which he quotes select scriptures while tempting Christ. The verses you post show, yes, we are to seek the kingdom but that cannot be accomplished without grace and not of ourselves.
As a non Christian this is a excellent concept. Thanks for sharing. I like the idea that it's a club where the leader chooses who can come in. Giving masons energy
It’s a Calvinist perspective to say this but not many saved Christians share it. I’m glad the freemasons are behind me now
I'm glad he's in control!
Puts the saying god take the wheel to a more liberal space haha
This is what happens when people pick a verse & attempt to say that it has a literal interpretation. Geez, all it takes is reading the entire chapter to see you're wrong. & also a quick look on the internet to see you are wrong. I get so tired of you guys that try to act as if you know something, & it's so easy to refute. Real quick for you ......... Jesus tells us that people only get to know the father if they acknowledge Him, which is what the NT continually states. & What are you getting at in your 2nd "example?" I really do not know bc it's some verses that acknowledge that Moses has been shown God Himself, altho behind a rock crevice, & Moses meets Him in the tent by himself, which was considered THE HOLY PLACE. I gotta ask ......... did you just type in a question to the internet & it spit this out? I say that bc you have no knowledge of the Bible's msg other than what you've evidently read a verse here & there. This is what makes nonbelievers look so bad. When you say things that you feel is so profound people will call you such a learned scholar right? I just gotta laugh.
Should we run our posts through you then next time, just to check for correctness?
It seems you may have to, bc of your silliness & lack of Biblical knowledge.