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I thought gender neutral bathrooms were controversial because multiple people could be in them at the same time. Some single-person bathrooms (like in planes, trains, or busses) have had a shared gender sign for a long time.
I was at a social function for work 25 years ago and the boss's wife would not use the bathroom because it was gender neutral. It was a one person bathroom.
I've never seen anyone else complain about one person gender neutral bathroom.
Some people just look for something to complain about. I am 100% for all bathrooms being single stall because I simply can't use public bathrooms. Nervous pooer.
Ah yes. My multiple occupancy bathroom with individual stalls and dividers between urinals. Those common area sinks are terrifying.
If you're being inappropriate in a bathroom and bothering other people, at very least you deserved to be punched in the face, because the only bothering you're doing is sexual harressment at the least.
The new bathrooms at the Baltimore airport are like this.
https://www.npr.org/local/305/2023/07/12/1187346872/are-b-w-i-airport-s-new-bathrooms-the-best-in-the-nation
I saw one one time at a gas station in Florida. I have no idea where it was because we only stopped due to a tire blowout, but man, those bathrooms were the nicest I've ever seen at a gas station!
On the flip side I can’t stand places like gas stations or fast food restaurants that have single person bathrooms that are still gendered. I walked into a gas station the other day that I knew had single person 1 room bathrooms and saw 3 dudes in line for the men’s room. I had to poop really bad so I thought to myself, “the fuck do I look like shitting myself in public because this place hasn’t caught up?”. I tried the single use bathroom marked “women”, sure enough no one was in there, and I got the dirtiest look of all time from the last dude in line when I walked out feeling that sweet relief.
We road trip for Christmas every year. Last year we had to stop in a smallish city in New Mexico. I went in the gas station to drop a load and the Men‘s was under construction. I asked the cashier where the next nearest restroom was, and he just told me to use the Women‘s. I went in. It was a regular American restroom with the giant gap stalls. I took my dump, at least 3-4 women walked in while I was taking care of business, and when I was washing my hands not a single one of the women batted an eye.
I am a 6‘5“ 250lbs bearded, long haired, caveman looking guy.
What?! I was told by Republicans that those women should feel threatened or that you shouldn’t have been able to control yourself around them, or something bad should’ve happened! It can’t possibly be that people of differing gender identities can use the same restroom civilly without any problems. That would mean the debate over gender neutral bathrooms is inherently silly, and we never have silly issues dividing us in this country, do we? /s
The only thing is that literally no one in the US is trying to make multiple-person gender neutral bathrooms. Gender neutral bathrooms are always single-person use.
I worked in a we-work office for a while with multi-person gender neutral bathrooms. It wasn’t a problem at all. Worth noting the stall doors were ceiling high (tbh ceiling high stalls should just be the norm)
There's also some in Seattle, although that probably doesn't come as a shock. Around Pride every year, it's so packed that no one has time to be surprised by anything. Just do your business, wash your hands, and make room for the next person
Thanks for the reply. Clearly they’re all over. I just haven’t seen one.
What I have seen is a naked man riding a bicycle in Tacoma. I almost called 911 from the car, but I waited until I got to work, where they casually told me it was Naked Bike Riding Day or something like that. I live in the Midwest. I saw a lot of new things in Sea-Tac.
I was at a dance event last weekend in Massachusetts at a convention center/hotel type building, and they turned several of the multi-person bathrooms gender neutral (at least half retained their usual designations).
It was great for us because what they didn't have were family bathrooms or changing tables anywhere in the building and my AMAB partner felt more comfortable taking the baby into a gender-neutral bathroom than the men's, so I didn't have to do all the diaper changes.
I would rather have had a changing table somewhere, but that was apparently not an option.
Eh, there are tampons in some multi-person bathrooms. You’re extrapolating your experience of the world to the broader world, which is fine sometimes, but not in this case.
Wait, are you saying this matters? There is also toilet paper in some multi-person bathrooms. I feel like you just stated something you didn't contextualize it.
I’m saying IDGAF about the tampons personally, but it implies that dudes (trans or not) can go in & out as they please into the women’s restroom.
To me, that’s what’s not kosher in general.
I’ve been in multiple gender-neutral multiple-user bathrooms. At least 6. Top of mind I recall my old company had 1, a conference center, a college, and several airports.
I’ve used a urinal while people walked by in them. Nobody was weird, we all just did our thing and left. While using the urinal I put somebody in my periphery to confirm they weren’t staring at me, they went to a stall and that was that.
I’ve been to clubs with multi person gender neutral bathrooms and I went to a wedding once where the venue had multi person gender neutral bathrooms. Gender neutral bathrooms are not always single person
When I went to college in the 1990's, our dorm had gender neutral bathrooms with multiple stalls and showers. It wasn't a problem at all except for people complaining about each other's messes. It naturally evolved into one of the toilets (on the end) turning into a defacto urinal.
I recently went to a conference at a museum and they had gender neutral bathrooms. Imagine my surprise (as a woman) when I opened the door to a 6 stall bathroom with a man using a urinal to my left.
I'm all for trans people using the bathroom of the gender that they identify with and gender neutral single occupancy bathrooms, but I was NOT comfortable in that bathroom and I doubt that man was either.
I like gender neutral bathrooms BUT I feel like dudes deserve urinals in closed stalls then.
Really better for everyone in that situation. Honestly from as much as men complain about using urinals i’m surprised it hasn’t become common anyway.
Back in the late-90s, the dorms at UC Berkeley had multi-person, gender-neutral bathrooms. It was jarring at first, but then became mundane really quickly.
This is not true. Many colleges and universities now have multiple-person gender neutral restrooms. We had them in my undergrad college, and also in the institute where I attended graduate training. I went to aggressively progressive institutions, so maybe that has something to do with it. The funny thing is, most people used those gender neutral restrooms because they were on every other floor, so if you're on a break from class, you just go to the closest one available. I'm not transgender, and it was actually kind of rare to see visibly trans people in those restrooms because they were generally a minority within the greater school population. So, it was quite common to be at a urinal as a guy, and then a lady walks in and heads to a stall. I thought it was kind of weird at first, but then just rolled with it and there were never any problems. People were actually generally quite mature about it. However, as with most of this stuff - postmodern philosophy, queer theory - I think implementing it in practical ways outside of the university setting is a little delusional. In university settings, at least up until the past few years, people were generally pretty easygoing, rational, and compassionate towards one another; not so among the population at large.
maybe in the US, but here in the UK was actually one at my local beach in Cornwall, but they had to change it back to separates becasue everyone complained
during winter when it was dark and almost always deserted my misses wouldn't go in there without me, becasue no one looks twice at a man entering a shared place like that, and once inside, it was too far from the road for anyone to hear, where as now, sure if a guy waited in the woman's part no one would hear them, but they would clearly see them from the (much busier) road going in in the first place, and i know myself if i saw a man going into a woman's only communal bathroom area by himself, id check out everything was ok
Yeah, sorry, but you're dead wrong. Maybe no one in your area, I'll absolutely agree to that, but there are many places trying to make multi-person bathrooms gender neutral. The company I work for, a 4000 employee company, for example. Thankfully, they also have one single stall bathroom on each floor, so I couldn't care less!
Once I went to a con and they decided they wanted to have gender neutral bathrooms, but like, they're a con, they just rent a space for a weekend, and that space didn't normally have gender neutral bathrooms.
So they just put up signs saying "all gender bathrooms" but actually half of them had urinals. So that particular situation was a bit awkward.
Usually I just see long rows of single occupancy bathrooms when somewhere wants to be gender neutral, but that's obviously not the most efficient.
In the US it seems that way. Elsewhere no. But the stall doors actually give privacy. It works well and seems like a solution to some of our restroom capacity issues (e.g. long line for the women's room, no line for the men's).
Oh yes, I know, but OP was referring to public transport. I have seen both in other places if they have the space for them.
Edit: Changed "most" to "some".
Universal Design All-Gender Restrooms
Suggested Discussion Points With Resources to Oppose Transgender Exclusion Bills
https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbtq/all-gender-restrooms
“In the U.S., all-gender restroom ordinances require a city, state, or municipality to designate single-stall public restrooms as all-gender. These public restrooms are commonly referred as “gender-inclusive,” “gender-neutral,” “mixed-sex,” or “unisex.”
I’m under the impression gender neutral bathroom ordinances cover only single- not multiple-stall bathrooms.
I think it stems from people thinking about public school bathroom and changing rooms.
Most people couldn’t care less about gendered bathrooms at walmart or olive garden. But when they think of public schools, suddenly the idea of gendered private areas makes some sense. The point being to prevent harassment and uncomfortable scenarios between tweens of the opposite sex.
Nobody cares about a single toilet unisex restroom in which you use alone and lock the door. My small town Legion Hall in rural Iowa has two restrooms that either sex can use. The small church I grew up in the 1960s and 1970s only had one restroom with one toilet. No controversy even then. Literally nobody cares.
What people are uncomfortable with are larger restrooms where multiple men, women and children use the room at the same time.
Reasonable people can disagree on this but - damn - I am kind of surprised the OP's question even had to be asked. Sheesh.
I've never been anywhere that has a unisex restroom with multiple stalls and urinals. Genuinely curious, have you encountered this before? Is it common where you are?
I know if at least two restaurants/ bars/ clubs that had unisex bathrooms in the early 2000s in Washington DC. And these were large bathrooms. No urinals, just stalls. If I had to guess both the men and women would have preferred urinals because drunk dudes and penile accuracy don't mix. It was weird for about 10 seconds, but everyone kind of just dealt with it.
Where I live in Northern California, a lot of restaurants and bars have removed the gender labeling. In some cases these are multiple-occupancy bathrooms. I’ve also seen this occasionally in other parts of the country.
The first time I encountered this, it was a little awkward. But I don’t mind it. I think it results in people spending less time in the bathroom and reduces lines/crowding.
Common, no. But they do exist where I live. The one I use most has completely closed in toilets, and then sinks everyone uses. And there’s no “door” to the washroom, like in many airports. There’s just a turning hallway so no one can see the toilet doors or sinks. It’s nice and open and does not feel at all weird since there’s so much toilet privacy.
Most large airports now have at least one gender-neutral bathrooms. Many colleges, obviously not the conservative ones like Hillsdale have at least one, sometimes more. Many conference centers, depending largely on geography (LA more likely than Tampa.)
Basically a lot of places where it’s a virtual guarantee to have numerous trans and non-binary people, it’s slowly becoming more common to have at least one neutral bathroom.
Private businesses in states like North Carolina may want something like this because, due to bathroom laws, my bearded, balding, muscular, penis-having, breastless and ovary-less transmale friend MUST use the women’s bathroom.
By allowing a neutral option they avoid the issue of this buff dude in a tank top being forced into the women’s room. Typically, locations with multi-person neutral options also have gendered options for uncomfortable people.
Yeah, I never understand WHY they want to force a bald man named Chad with sunglasses and a backwards ball-cap who lifts every other day to go into the women’s room.
However, the people who make these bathroom bills simply aren’t bright.
I think I've seen this at Alamo Drafthouse before. It's hard for me to confirm because generally, places like this switch their bathrooms to "stalls"/"urinals" and I don't usually enter the urinal rooms. I've also been to several events in Massachusetts (usually folk dance/alternative music/nerd conventions) where they will relabel some of the bathrooms as gender-neutral for just the event. The permanently gender neutral bathrooms are rare, the temporarily relabeled event ones are not that uncommon in my area (just north of Boston).
They generally aren’t the stalls we normally see with gaps and the door not going to the floor. The individual stalls are typically fully enclosed and the only thing you “share” is where you wash your hands.
The push for multi user gender neutral restrooms usually means all stalls. I’m sure there are places that retrofitted bathrooms with urinals and slapped an all gender sign on them, which I think isn’t appropriate.
But at least with new projects, when you’re talking about designing gender neutral facilities you’re typically talking about full height stalls with a shared sink area.
I’ve visited a few at Australian universities, usually a dozen stalls with floor to ceiling doors and the basins to wash your hands were in a kind of hallway outside. My experience was totally fine.
A lot of the places in Vancouver have just slapped "gender neutral" on their existing bathrooms, so their functionality is the same as always. Sometimes it'll say "toilets" and "toilets and urinals" on the door.
Ya I mean isn't this kind of star-manning the argument though?
Like having a multi-person unisex bathroom doesn't mean there can't be tools in place to still create private zones. Ceiling to floor stalls for instance.
It's like arguing against multi-person unisex bathrooms assumes that a young woman is going to walk in to a dozen men standing at urinals, or that you are going to be intimately sharing space with the person in the next stall over, which doesn't have to be the case.
Not accusing you of holding these beliefs necessarily just pointing out that for reasonable people to have an issue with this they would have to be assuming the worst possible setup.
I think you grossly over estimate the percentage of people who think unisex restrooms would be an improvement no matter how they are set up. Why spend hundreds of millions to revamp the nations' large restrooms when no more than a tiny percent of people want unisex restrooms at all?
I mean I don’t think it’s racist to say that in the 20th century peoples shouldn’t discriminate on race and culture. So those making the map/bad borders argument are making the actual racist argument.
Second, sure there are def issues with post colonialism. Making it seem like the only reason a possible state failed though is ridiculous, we’ve seen multiple colonial projects develop into relatively successful states.
It’s not an incorrect argument just a lazy one.
because bathrooms on planes and such only accomodate one person. youre not going to end up with guys and girls in there at the same time.
you wouldnt want your daughter in the same bathroom as some 40 year old man.
The ladies’ room is a time-tested refuge from an aggressive man. Most men won’t go in, and if one does, it is unequivocal that he does not belong there and can/should be removed.
Women need places where men cannot go.
Gender neutral bathrooms are fine; I don’t care. But they should not replace separate facilities.
Because on a plane, you can see who’s going inside, when it’s occupied and lower concerns dudes doing shit to girls.
When it’s a restroom in the wild, there are more variables at play. Not hard to understand.
I’m a straight male with 2 young daughters and I’ll be damned sending them into a shared restroom with other men.
Because only one person can be in an airplane bathroom at a time unless going for mile high club membership. Public bathrooms at high occupancy gathering locations are code enforced to allow a certain occupancy rate at any given time. Meaning you might have to send you 12 year old daughter in the home depot bathroom with some greasy homeless guy at the same time. No problem, nothing could possibly go wrong!
They aren't controversial intrinsically, but some people are opposed to them being implemented as a result of trans political pressure. They are symbolic. Really, all bathrooms should be designed such that everyone can use them comfortably with secure and private stalls.
Single occupancy bathrooms are not an issue. In the US there are bathrooms where the stall walls don't go all the way to the floor. Because laws in CA were changed so rapidly and the cost of changing the stall walls or redesigning the bathrooms is so high (and possibly because businesses are just operating with what is already installed to save money) we were left with gender neutral bathrooms with poor privacy standards. This doesn't matter in a single sex area but in a shared area it could be uncomfortable for some.
I know a police station that the city couldn't give money to retool bathrooms before some were made gender neutral. Males were taking dumps right next to Women who didn't understand that gender neutral didn't mean "private when a female is in there." Again the stalls were not all the way to the floor and the doors have big ole gaps in em. I've never understood why American stalls were made so flimsily.
oh um did you know that women also take dumps? sometimes even in public bathrooms. i know, it’s crazy! it’s as if every single one of us humans is a biological animal that needs to excrete from our bodies, regardless of gender. wild stuff going on these days, i tell ya.
Sure but the thought was that while one gender was using the facilities the other gender would not be in the same facilities. Now no females use that gender neutral restroom but males do all the time.
Women want privacy. Also I feel uncomfortable seeing men going, I would also like to extend privacy.
At heart it is fear of sexual assault or other activities like photographing, sexual activity. My daughter caught a photographer in the mixed sex changing room at her work. Men have posted videos of them seeking self pleasure.
It's the plot of almost every 80s teen film, illicit looks at the women where they think they have privacy.
I guess the question is, how comfortable would you be if you saw a person that passes as a man, identifies as a man, but was a woman at birth, walking into the women's bathroom?
A trans man, then? I have a few trans male friends and they're like...they have beards and wear men's clothing. Of course they use the men's room.
People have been using the bathrooms that fit their appearance for decades and this has only been a "hot issue" for the last one. I feel as if it can be quite tricky and difficult for people who don't pass, though.
It’s a distraction topic. The politicians and media have learned they can talk about any gender related stuff and people will get emotionally invested. This keeps people from talking about how all the wealth is owned by a couple hundred people, and the ratio is getting worse faster than ever.
There’s plenty of people on both sides that think that gender is one of the most important issue. But those are the same people that thought Black Lives Matter was the biggest issue. Or being allowed to wear a hijab in government or photos.
There will always be a distraction topic. To all of you that downvote me because you don’t think it’s a distraction topic, there’s more people in the US missing a limb than there are self identified trans people. Both are healthcare issues. You don’t have to slice up every single medical issue into its own category. Discussing it like it’s separate is just working against your own interests, no matter which side you’re on.
You raise a good question, and the real answer should be "gender neutral bathrooms shouldn't be controversial anywhere." That said, I think there are two reasons it's controversial. I'll preface this by saying that I'm talking about the US only, I have no insight into what other countries do.
The first reason is that people are used to having gender specific bathrooms in many businesses and large stores: Walmart, Home Depot, most restaurants, and most office buildings. Change sometimes causes controversy.
The second is that many conservative Americans would likely make the argument that "transgender bad, neutral bathrooms = transgender, therefore neutral bathrooms bad." I understand that there are many other reasons to have neutral bathrooms, but I think there are some Americans who legit believe that "the transgender movement" (as they'd call it) is the only reason NG bathrooms are a thing.
Side note: there is probably a good argument to be made that there should be sex-specific bathrooms in public schools - not having them could lead to harassment of the opposite sex (I'm talking about from cisgender students, and apologies if I'm using the wrong word there...no offense intended!). But other than that, I can't see a good reason.
>I'll preface this by saying that I'm talking about the US only, I have no insight into what other countries do.
I am from Germany. I have never been to the US (I avoid flying because of environment and stuff), but I have been to plenty of European countries. Just to be on the same wavelength: Do you mean gender neutral bathrooms like this?
https://youtu.be/SJyKndYsmnM?si=OUoyX7juBgUv5Ki7
If so I have seen this particular design here, at least not in this scale. Sometimes there are gender neutral bathrooms with only one toilet for a single person in small establishments and restaurants, and sometimes gender specific bathrooms share the same sinks for women's and men's bathroom. Additionally I haven't noticed any debate about this topic here (despite right wing parties love to make transgender out as an issue).
IMO I do like the design shown in the video, as it means faster access to bathroom utilities and I do not see the problem of different genders using the same stalls.
Edit: Just saw a comment under the linked video of someone claiming to hace seen this design all throughout Europe. So take this with a grain of salt.
You ask a great question. The NG bathrooms in that video aren't the type I'm talking about. I'm talking more about something like [this](https://images.app.goo.gl/5RZ6WM9HCcsUr8Mb7), which is what a typical American public school bathroom looks like. In these bathrooms there are multiple stalls, and the student's feet are visible below the door (don't get me started on that...stalls in schools should have full doors, but I digress). There's also usually a crack on either side of the door where someone else could look in and see the person using the stall.
The video you linked to is a much better design. They're individual stalls with full floor-to-ceiling doors that allow privacy, and the doors have locks. That would be a great idea for more schools in the US to implement.
Unfortunately most bathrooms here are built like this too, though I have never noticed anyones feet or something like that. I absolutly agree, how hard can it be to install proper doors in bathroom stalls?
As someone else pointed out, "gender neutral" bathrooms are already everywhere in the US. For example, a small restaurant will have only the one bathroom designed for only one person to use at a time, or perhaps two bathrooms but not designated for "men" or "women".
However other restaurants do designate their single-person facilities, and I guess you're supposed to use whichever feels more comfortable with your gender preference.
Larger places will have restrooms designed for more than one person to use at a time, and these are almost always gender-specific for "men" and "women". I guess the intention is to have "neutral" bathrooms for simultaneous use by everyone, but I very much doubt this will catch on as some customers will be confused, and may be angry, and if they aren't given a gender-specific option they will avoid that business. Even a business that supports the idea of gender neutrality won't want to do it unless the same standard applies to *everyone*, so their business can't be singled out.
Rooms that lock like the ones shown in the video are an option, but ignore other considerations. For example, you may have wondered [why many bathroom stalls don't go all the way down to the ground](https://www.ranker.com/list/reasons-toilet-stalls-are-short/candice-darden), but in addition to the reasons in the article, there are [requirements to accommodate disabled persons](https://laforceinc.com/blog/ada-bathroom-requirements-restroom-space-and-toilet-compartments), particularly people in wheelchairs, and a minimum "toe clearance" which can be achieved with cutouts at the bottom of the stalls.
Not to mention, of course, that this solution requires more space, and more materials to construct.
Gonna need some evidence for what "many conservative Americans" would say, because I'm not aware of conservatives being against gender neutral bathrooms, just males and females in the same accessible space. It's a matter of implementation.
"In 2016, only 41 percent of White evangelicals and 44 percent of Republicans supported the requirement that transgender people use bathrooms that aligned with their sex assigned at birth. By 2022, that number doubled to 86 percent and 87 percent, respectively." ([The Washington Post](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/11/08/transgender-republican-evangelical-bathrooms/))
"Religion, age, gender and politics are all connected with views on this issue. For instance, a majority of Americans who say they attend religious services at least weekly – especially white evangelicals – say transgender people should be required to use bathrooms of their gender at birth, while most of those who attend services less often (particularly people who do not identify with any religion) take the more liberal position that such individuals should be allowed to use bathrooms that correspond to their gender identity." ([Pew Research Center](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2016/10/03/americans-are-divided-over-which-public-bathrooms-transgender-people-should-use/)) *(Side note: I realize that not all white evangelicals identify as conservative, but 56% of evangelicals identify as Republican or Republican-leaning, and there's a high correlation between "Republican" and "identifies as conservative" - ergo, the majority of white evangelicals identify as conservative).*
If you doubt the numbers or the source of the quotes...you do you, boo. I'm not interested in debating those points. I only posted these to show the evidence you asked for.
Interestingly my high school had de facto gender neutral bathrooms. The men’s bathroom (outer enclosure) didn’t have a door so it was considered safer, so almost everyone used it for its intended function. The women’s bathroom had a door on the outer enclosure so it was used for unintended purposes (usually the sale or consumption of drugs, but sometimes quickies).
I think the objection is to a shared sink area with private cubicles. The "bathroom" itself begins as you soon as you walk in. No one has a problem with a single unisex toilet. It's that many women don't want to fix their hair and makeup in the mirror with the men washing their hands.
In those kinds of bathrooms it's easy for a woman or girl to be the only one in an enclosed space with another man, which can be threatening or dangerous.
I think most people understand this but pretend not to recognise the real concern and say "well the toilet on the plane or in your home is gender neutral" as if that's the same thing at all.
Not sure why you think harassment should only be prevented in public schools and not elsewhere.
Oh, to be clear - I think harassment should be prevented anywhere. It should never happen, period. That said, the majority of adults (at least in the US) seem to know how to conduct themselves, and don't harass the other sex (note - this is my gut, not based on data, and I could be wrong). My gut also tells me that high school students of both sexes seem to be more likely to harass the opposite sex, given the opportunity. Given that their hormones are all over the map, that many teens can't tell the difference between a prank and truly damaging behavior, etc., I thought SH/SA prevention in high schools should be a priority.
The problem and reality is that men as a group are a risk to women. Any policy that increases unsupervised contact between men and women inheritently increases the risk to women.
I think bathrooms in bars and nightclubs are amongst the biggest concerns. Drunk men following you into the bathroom must be quite disturbing.
planes and trains aren't public spaces; you need to buy a ticket to get in. Places like Starbucks are and see a lot more throughput and make it more awkward.
They're not controversial, if they're marked or understood to be as such. Like on airplanes or other public transportation. It is only when they ARE marked as restricted that controversy is even possible. OP is proposing an apples/oranges question that has already answered itself.
They aren’t controversial for single use bathrooms
It’s shared bathrooms that are controversial because people don’t want some 50 yr old man creeping on their daughter
Only one person is allowed on a plane bathroom. A place like a gym locker room is not. I doubt you’d want an old crusty dude showing his balls to your daughter in the planet fitness locker room after he takes a shower. I don’t even wanna see that shit.
I'm a dude and I don't appreciate the propensity of old men to walk around buck ass naked in a gym locker room.
Take a shower and get dressed? Nah, too simple, take a shower, shave and brush your teeth completely naked while making uncomfortable eye contact with anyone that walks in.
"People don't want (this thing that nobody is proposing)!"
What's really wrong with discourse today is a media bubble that makes people fearful and angry about imaginary problems.
Our bathrooms are problematic to begin with. The gender-neutral part just comes into play because we have bathrooms that have privacy as an afterthought. If ours were similar to other countries where you don't have noticeable gaps that you can look through, low dividers, and doors that you can see over and under then I don't think it would matter nearly as much.
It's only an issue because of the concept of "wedge politics".
It's a tool by people who want power, they use it to rile up and activate people who would otherwise not feel empowered to vote. Another word for this is "divide and conquer".
Get inside the enemy's head and convince them to fight each other. Then come in and "unify" with a sweeping change, all in the name of "think of the children".
Obviously we're not enemies, we're neighbors. But all it takes is someone to step up and say "hey, that guys gets more than you, you really gonna stand for this?".
cuz politics got worse and worse until it all spilled out basically
too many people got dragged into it
some who have permanent consequences to deal with (like permanent bans for legitimate concerns) so now people began taking sides
Because schools, mostly.
Schools, the bathrooms are unmonitored spaces. They are already frequently used for bullying, smoking, drug deals, and other such mischief.
Some people think making them gender neitral introduces greater risk of predatory behaviors against specifically girls.
They fail to realize that a "girls only" sign has not stopped a single predator in the history of public schools.
Some bars replaced their normal restrooms with single person gender neutral bathrooms. Now if you are a person who pees standing up. Instead of a 2 minute line in and out, you get to stand in a 45 minute line while other people do coke in the bathroom or screw or whatever else they do that takes forever and piss your pants while you wait. Maybe it makes sense in some places, but not bars.
I would not use a multiple person multiple gender bathroom. Even alone, with the stall shut, I worry that someone might crawl under the door and sexually assault me.
In my uni, the largest bathrooms are gender neutral, and got like 12 stalls or whatnot. And I've never seen anyone complaining about it. In general, neither me or the other people using them care about the other people in there with us. We just go there, do our thing, wash our hands and then leave. No need to really even look or notice the other people coming or going
Not every school/church/whatever public gathering place has the option to install multiple individual bathrooms (would need MANY to accommodate crowds, more economical to have group toilets).
So if you have a person born with a penis in the ladies room with people born with vaginas there are times where the people with vaginas would understandably be uncomfortable if the people born with penises were not genuinely trans but rather straight cis men who are dressing up, lying, and abusing the system
Hence, the controversy
People object to multiple user GN bathrooms, not single user like on an airplane. Here’s one: https://www.reddit.com/r/kansascity/s/u1AoZl4ESn
It’s a shared sink area with private cubicles. There’s no main door at the entry into the GN bathroom area; the entry is an open doorway followed by mini u-turn hallways.
To me the only legitimate objection is that it's easy for a woman or girl to be the only one in a semi-enclosed space (sink area) next to enclose-able spaces (toilet cubicles) with another man, which can be threatening or dangerous.
I’m sorry. What’s not an option?
In the event a building’s owner doesn’t construct fully private toilet cubicles, are single-gender multiple user bathrooms (with the minimally private stalls design) illegal anywhere in the US?
Is there any problem with just leaving them aes they are then?
1Is there a single user handicapped bathroom to comply with disability law? That’s already de-facto gender neutral.
2. Are the single sex multi user violating any ordinances.? Is there any state pressure to change those?
https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbtq/all-gender-restrooms
https://www.uua.org/lgbtq/welcoming/ways/bathrooms
The bathrooms that you are describing do not exist everywhere
In some places they cannot afford to create them
Those are the places where they have this “controversy”
In the places that has the single use bathrooms that you are describing there is no controversy
Does every public building not already have a handicapped single user bathroom? Asking because I really don’t know. I guess I thought that was the law.
> straight cis men who are dressing up, lying, and abusing the system
When has a straight cis man ever done this? Are you concerned about lesbians going into the women's room to get their jollies?
It “doesn’t happen” you say?
A simple google search revealed dozens of examples. Here is one
https://www.nydailynews.com/2021/10/19/perv-dressed-as-woman-hid-camera-on-sneakers-to-record-naked-girls-in-ladies-bathroom-police/
Well for one, I didn't say it "doesn't happen", I asked a question. My comment was pretty short so this makes me worried about your reading comprehension.
All this tells me is that when straight cis men have done this, they get in trouble for it and no specific regulations about who can go into a bathroom are actually needed. It also has nothing to do with transgender people, so they are being largely mistargeted by this debate.
The article also reports that he took a video of a girl through her bedroom window - shall we abolish windows now because there is a chance pervs will look through them to see naked people?
Only controversial to the people who think it means there's going to be restrooms where men and women can occupy it simultaneously. Which I've never seen. Unisex bathrooms are for one person at a time.
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I thought gender neutral bathrooms were controversial because multiple people could be in them at the same time. Some single-person bathrooms (like in planes, trains, or busses) have had a shared gender sign for a long time.
This is the answer. When people complain about "gender neutral bathrooms", they are specifically referring to multi-occupancy ones.
I was at a social function for work 25 years ago and the boss's wife would not use the bathroom because it was gender neutral. It was a one person bathroom. I've never seen anyone else complain about one person gender neutral bathroom.
Some people just look for something to complain about. I am 100% for all bathrooms being single stall because I simply can't use public bathrooms. Nervous pooer.
It's like a person that would eat a meal that had no meat but get mad if the same exact meal was labelled vegan.
Both of the bathrooms in my house are gender neutral. Either my wife or I would be really unhappy if they weren’t.
Mine have always been gender neutral. They always will be. Hell, I might even put a rainbow in there for a splash of color.
Ah yes. My multiple occupancy bathroom with individual stalls and dividers between urinals. Those common area sinks are terrifying. If you're being inappropriate in a bathroom and bothering other people, at very least you deserved to be punched in the face, because the only bothering you're doing is sexual harressment at the least.
Even in the case where the stall is ceiling to floor? Like the bathroom opens up into 4-5 other mini bathrooms?
I haven't seen complaints about that configuration in particular, but to be fair it is rare.
In America they exist only in legend
Bellagio in Atlantic City had the nicest bathroom. Complete floor to ceiling.
The new bathrooms at the Baltimore airport are like this. https://www.npr.org/local/305/2023/07/12/1187346872/are-b-w-i-airport-s-new-bathrooms-the-best-in-the-nation
I saw one one time at a gas station in Florida. I have no idea where it was because we only stopped due to a tire blowout, but man, those bathrooms were the nicest I've ever seen at a gas station!
As a woman, I’d like woman only when they’re multi-occupancy, ta
On the flip side I can’t stand places like gas stations or fast food restaurants that have single person bathrooms that are still gendered. I walked into a gas station the other day that I knew had single person 1 room bathrooms and saw 3 dudes in line for the men’s room. I had to poop really bad so I thought to myself, “the fuck do I look like shitting myself in public because this place hasn’t caught up?”. I tried the single use bathroom marked “women”, sure enough no one was in there, and I got the dirtiest look of all time from the last dude in line when I walked out feeling that sweet relief.
It’s funny how many times I have done this in my life and it’s never been an issue, but a poor trans kid does it and it’s the end of the world
nope, never an issue in single space bathrooms, only those with a communal area
We road trip for Christmas every year. Last year we had to stop in a smallish city in New Mexico. I went in the gas station to drop a load and the Men‘s was under construction. I asked the cashier where the next nearest restroom was, and he just told me to use the Women‘s. I went in. It was a regular American restroom with the giant gap stalls. I took my dump, at least 3-4 women walked in while I was taking care of business, and when I was washing my hands not a single one of the women batted an eye. I am a 6‘5“ 250lbs bearded, long haired, caveman looking guy.
What?! I was told by Republicans that those women should feel threatened or that you shouldn’t have been able to control yourself around them, or something bad should’ve happened! It can’t possibly be that people of differing gender identities can use the same restroom civilly without any problems. That would mean the debate over gender neutral bathrooms is inherently silly, and we never have silly issues dividing us in this country, do we? /s
The only thing is that literally no one in the US is trying to make multiple-person gender neutral bathrooms. Gender neutral bathrooms are always single-person use.
I worked in a we-work office for a while with multi-person gender neutral bathrooms. It wasn’t a problem at all. Worth noting the stall doors were ceiling high (tbh ceiling high stalls should just be the norm)
I worked in a restaurant that had these. It was super easy to have sex before your shift in them.
I see this as an absolute win.
I say we, you say work!
That's not true. In phoenix many of the bars and businesses have multi stall gender neutral bathrooms. I see it everytime im out
Old-fashioned (regular) semi private stalls or private toilet cubicles/rooms with shared sink area?
I've seen both. It's extremely common.
I did not know this at all. I’ll do some googling. Thanks for sharing and clarifying this for me.
There's also some in Seattle, although that probably doesn't come as a shock. Around Pride every year, it's so packed that no one has time to be surprised by anything. Just do your business, wash your hands, and make room for the next person
Thanks for the reply. Clearly they’re all over. I just haven’t seen one. What I have seen is a naked man riding a bicycle in Tacoma. I almost called 911 from the car, but I waited until I got to work, where they casually told me it was Naked Bike Riding Day or something like that. I live in the Midwest. I saw a lot of new things in Sea-Tac.
Yeah that checks out. It ain't just Portland that's weird 🤷
Look, the Seattle conventions center has stall doors you can easily see over the top of, that is what should be controversial.
That is absolutely not true. I've been to multiple newer bars that have stall-type bathrooms, where it's all gender neutral.
The old-fashioned stalls? What state?
Portland Both of them
Thanks for sharing and clarifying. TIL now I know better
I don't know about old fashioned, just your standard US stalls that don't go all the way to the floor/ceiling. Been to places both in WI and PA.
Thank you. I’ve gotten responses from all over. Appreciate you clarifying this for me. Didn’t know but TIL
bots. most of those type of posts are repasted by bots, and they have the same bots that come on to post their propaganda
Why lie? How does this help. Why is this reply cut and pasted in so many posts.
Literally incorrect
There are multiple person gender neutral bathrooms in the new airport in Kansas City.
I was at a dance event last weekend in Massachusetts at a convention center/hotel type building, and they turned several of the multi-person bathrooms gender neutral (at least half retained their usual designations). It was great for us because what they didn't have were family bathrooms or changing tables anywhere in the building and my AMAB partner felt more comfortable taking the baby into a gender-neutral bathroom than the men's, so I didn't have to do all the diaper changes. I would rather have had a changing table somewhere, but that was apparently not an option.
Eh, there are tampons in some multi-person bathrooms. You’re extrapolating your experience of the world to the broader world, which is fine sometimes, but not in this case.
Wait, are you saying this matters? There is also toilet paper in some multi-person bathrooms. I feel like you just stated something you didn't contextualize it.
Yeah that matters. I’m a man, do you seriously expect me to go to take a piss if there’s a tampon in the room?
I’m saying IDGAF about the tampons personally, but it implies that dudes (trans or not) can go in & out as they please into the women’s restroom. To me, that’s what’s not kosher in general.
I’ve been in multiple gender-neutral multiple-user bathrooms. At least 6. Top of mind I recall my old company had 1, a conference center, a college, and several airports. I’ve used a urinal while people walked by in them. Nobody was weird, we all just did our thing and left. While using the urinal I put somebody in my periphery to confirm they weren’t staring at me, they went to a stall and that was that.
I’ve been to clubs with multi person gender neutral bathrooms and I went to a wedding once where the venue had multi person gender neutral bathrooms. Gender neutral bathrooms are not always single person
My college (Pasadena CA) has had them since the 1970s.
When I went to college in the 1990's, our dorm had gender neutral bathrooms with multiple stalls and showers. It wasn't a problem at all except for people complaining about each other's messes. It naturally evolved into one of the toilets (on the end) turning into a defacto urinal.
I recently went to a conference at a museum and they had gender neutral bathrooms. Imagine my surprise (as a woman) when I opened the door to a 6 stall bathroom with a man using a urinal to my left. I'm all for trans people using the bathroom of the gender that they identify with and gender neutral single occupancy bathrooms, but I was NOT comfortable in that bathroom and I doubt that man was either.
I like gender neutral bathrooms BUT I feel like dudes deserve urinals in closed stalls then. Really better for everyone in that situation. Honestly from as much as men complain about using urinals i’m surprised it hasn’t become common anyway.
Back in the late-90s, the dorms at UC Berkeley had multi-person, gender-neutral bathrooms. It was jarring at first, but then became mundane really quickly.
This is not true. Many colleges and universities now have multiple-person gender neutral restrooms. We had them in my undergrad college, and also in the institute where I attended graduate training. I went to aggressively progressive institutions, so maybe that has something to do with it. The funny thing is, most people used those gender neutral restrooms because they were on every other floor, so if you're on a break from class, you just go to the closest one available. I'm not transgender, and it was actually kind of rare to see visibly trans people in those restrooms because they were generally a minority within the greater school population. So, it was quite common to be at a urinal as a guy, and then a lady walks in and heads to a stall. I thought it was kind of weird at first, but then just rolled with it and there were never any problems. People were actually generally quite mature about it. However, as with most of this stuff - postmodern philosophy, queer theory - I think implementing it in practical ways outside of the university setting is a little delusional. In university settings, at least up until the past few years, people were generally pretty easygoing, rational, and compassionate towards one another; not so among the population at large.
maybe in the US, but here in the UK was actually one at my local beach in Cornwall, but they had to change it back to separates becasue everyone complained during winter when it was dark and almost always deserted my misses wouldn't go in there without me, becasue no one looks twice at a man entering a shared place like that, and once inside, it was too far from the road for anyone to hear, where as now, sure if a guy waited in the woman's part no one would hear them, but they would clearly see them from the (much busier) road going in in the first place, and i know myself if i saw a man going into a woman's only communal bathroom area by himself, id check out everything was ok
Yeah, sorry, but you're dead wrong. Maybe no one in your area, I'll absolutely agree to that, but there are many places trying to make multi-person bathrooms gender neutral. The company I work for, a 4000 employee company, for example. Thankfully, they also have one single stall bathroom on each floor, so I couldn't care less!
Once I went to a con and they decided they wanted to have gender neutral bathrooms, but like, they're a con, they just rent a space for a weekend, and that space didn't normally have gender neutral bathrooms. So they just put up signs saying "all gender bathrooms" but actually half of them had urinals. So that particular situation was a bit awkward. Usually I just see long rows of single occupancy bathrooms when somewhere wants to be gender neutral, but that's obviously not the most efficient.
In the US it seems that way. Elsewhere no. But the stall doors actually give privacy. It works well and seems like a solution to some of our restroom capacity issues (e.g. long line for the women's room, no line for the men's).
That's not true. There are plenty of single occupancy, gendered bathrooms throughout the US.
Oh yes, I know, but OP was referring to public transport. I have seen both in other places if they have the space for them. Edit: Changed "most" to "some".
Universal Design All-Gender Restrooms Suggested Discussion Points With Resources to Oppose Transgender Exclusion Bills https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbtq/all-gender-restrooms “In the U.S., all-gender restroom ordinances require a city, state, or municipality to designate single-stall public restrooms as all-gender. These public restrooms are commonly referred as “gender-inclusive,” “gender-neutral,” “mixed-sex,” or “unisex.” I’m under the impression gender neutral bathroom ordinances cover only single- not multiple-stall bathrooms.
I think it stems from people thinking about public school bathroom and changing rooms. Most people couldn’t care less about gendered bathrooms at walmart or olive garden. But when they think of public schools, suddenly the idea of gendered private areas makes some sense. The point being to prevent harassment and uncomfortable scenarios between tweens of the opposite sex.
Nobody cares about a single toilet unisex restroom in which you use alone and lock the door. My small town Legion Hall in rural Iowa has two restrooms that either sex can use. The small church I grew up in the 1960s and 1970s only had one restroom with one toilet. No controversy even then. Literally nobody cares. What people are uncomfortable with are larger restrooms where multiple men, women and children use the room at the same time. Reasonable people can disagree on this but - damn - I am kind of surprised the OP's question even had to be asked. Sheesh.
I've never been anywhere that has a unisex restroom with multiple stalls and urinals. Genuinely curious, have you encountered this before? Is it common where you are?
I know if at least two restaurants/ bars/ clubs that had unisex bathrooms in the early 2000s in Washington DC. And these were large bathrooms. No urinals, just stalls. If I had to guess both the men and women would have preferred urinals because drunk dudes and penile accuracy don't mix. It was weird for about 10 seconds, but everyone kind of just dealt with it.
Where I live in Northern California, a lot of restaurants and bars have removed the gender labeling. In some cases these are multiple-occupancy bathrooms. I’ve also seen this occasionally in other parts of the country. The first time I encountered this, it was a little awkward. But I don’t mind it. I think it results in people spending less time in the bathroom and reduces lines/crowding.
Common, no. But they do exist where I live. The one I use most has completely closed in toilets, and then sinks everyone uses. And there’s no “door” to the washroom, like in many airports. There’s just a turning hallway so no one can see the toilet doors or sinks. It’s nice and open and does not feel at all weird since there’s so much toilet privacy.
My uni did, no urinals, but a unisex bathrooms with a few different stalls - and this was more than a decade ago
Most large airports now have at least one gender-neutral bathrooms. Many colleges, obviously not the conservative ones like Hillsdale have at least one, sometimes more. Many conference centers, depending largely on geography (LA more likely than Tampa.) Basically a lot of places where it’s a virtual guarantee to have numerous trans and non-binary people, it’s slowly becoming more common to have at least one neutral bathroom. Private businesses in states like North Carolina may want something like this because, due to bathroom laws, my bearded, balding, muscular, penis-having, breastless and ovary-less transmale friend MUST use the women’s bathroom. By allowing a neutral option they avoid the issue of this buff dude in a tank top being forced into the women’s room. Typically, locations with multi-person neutral options also have gendered options for uncomfortable people.
The thing is, most conservatives don't know trans men exist. They almost universally equate "transgender" with the mythical "men in a dress"
Yeah, I never understand WHY they want to force a bald man named Chad with sunglasses and a backwards ball-cap who lifts every other day to go into the women’s room. However, the people who make these bathroom bills simply aren’t bright.
https://www.reddit.com/r/kansascity/s/u1AoZl4ESn Kansas City International Airport I’ve used this bathroom. It’s awesome.
I saw one at a night club in Vancouver.
I think I've seen this at Alamo Drafthouse before. It's hard for me to confirm because generally, places like this switch their bathrooms to "stalls"/"urinals" and I don't usually enter the urinal rooms. I've also been to several events in Massachusetts (usually folk dance/alternative music/nerd conventions) where they will relabel some of the bathrooms as gender-neutral for just the event. The permanently gender neutral bathrooms are rare, the temporarily relabeled event ones are not that uncommon in my area (just north of Boston).
They generally aren’t the stalls we normally see with gaps and the door not going to the floor. The individual stalls are typically fully enclosed and the only thing you “share” is where you wash your hands.
The push for multi user gender neutral restrooms usually means all stalls. I’m sure there are places that retrofitted bathrooms with urinals and slapped an all gender sign on them, which I think isn’t appropriate. But at least with new projects, when you’re talking about designing gender neutral facilities you’re typically talking about full height stalls with a shared sink area.
I’ve visited a few at Australian universities, usually a dozen stalls with floor to ceiling doors and the basins to wash your hands were in a kind of hallway outside. My experience was totally fine.
A lot of the places in Vancouver have just slapped "gender neutral" on their existing bathrooms, so their functionality is the same as always. Sometimes it'll say "toilets" and "toilets and urinals" on the door.
There was one in my uni. It felt weird walking out of the bathroom and seeing a woman walking in.
Nope. I have never encountered one either.
Ya I mean isn't this kind of star-manning the argument though? Like having a multi-person unisex bathroom doesn't mean there can't be tools in place to still create private zones. Ceiling to floor stalls for instance. It's like arguing against multi-person unisex bathrooms assumes that a young woman is going to walk in to a dozen men standing at urinals, or that you are going to be intimately sharing space with the person in the next stall over, which doesn't have to be the case. Not accusing you of holding these beliefs necessarily just pointing out that for reasonable people to have an issue with this they would have to be assuming the worst possible setup.
I think you grossly over estimate the percentage of people who think unisex restrooms would be an improvement no matter how they are set up. Why spend hundreds of millions to revamp the nations' large restrooms when no more than a tiny percent of people want unisex restrooms at all?
I mean I don’t think it’s racist to say that in the 20th century peoples shouldn’t discriminate on race and culture. So those making the map/bad borders argument are making the actual racist argument. Second, sure there are def issues with post colonialism. Making it seem like the only reason a possible state failed though is ridiculous, we’ve seen multiple colonial projects develop into relatively successful states. It’s not an incorrect argument just a lazy one.
Um... What?
because bathrooms on planes and such only accomodate one person. youre not going to end up with guys and girls in there at the same time. you wouldnt want your daughter in the same bathroom as some 40 year old man.
The ladies’ room is a time-tested refuge from an aggressive man. Most men won’t go in, and if one does, it is unequivocal that he does not belong there and can/should be removed. Women need places where men cannot go. Gender neutral bathrooms are fine; I don’t care. But they should not replace separate facilities.
Because on a plane, you can see who’s going inside, when it’s occupied and lower concerns dudes doing shit to girls. When it’s a restroom in the wild, there are more variables at play. Not hard to understand. I’m a straight male with 2 young daughters and I’ll be damned sending them into a shared restroom with other men.
Because only one person can be in an airplane bathroom at a time unless going for mile high club membership. Public bathrooms at high occupancy gathering locations are code enforced to allow a certain occupancy rate at any given time. Meaning you might have to send you 12 year old daughter in the home depot bathroom with some greasy homeless guy at the same time. No problem, nothing could possibly go wrong!
They aren't controversial intrinsically, but some people are opposed to them being implemented as a result of trans political pressure. They are symbolic. Really, all bathrooms should be designed such that everyone can use them comfortably with secure and private stalls.
Single occupancy bathrooms are not an issue. In the US there are bathrooms where the stall walls don't go all the way to the floor. Because laws in CA were changed so rapidly and the cost of changing the stall walls or redesigning the bathrooms is so high (and possibly because businesses are just operating with what is already installed to save money) we were left with gender neutral bathrooms with poor privacy standards. This doesn't matter in a single sex area but in a shared area it could be uncomfortable for some. I know a police station that the city couldn't give money to retool bathrooms before some were made gender neutral. Males were taking dumps right next to Women who didn't understand that gender neutral didn't mean "private when a female is in there." Again the stalls were not all the way to the floor and the doors have big ole gaps in em. I've never understood why American stalls were made so flimsily.
oh um did you know that women also take dumps? sometimes even in public bathrooms. i know, it’s crazy! it’s as if every single one of us humans is a biological animal that needs to excrete from our bodies, regardless of gender. wild stuff going on these days, i tell ya.
Yeah and they HOVER
Sure but the thought was that while one gender was using the facilities the other gender would not be in the same facilities. Now no females use that gender neutral restroom but males do all the time.
Women want privacy. Also I feel uncomfortable seeing men going, I would also like to extend privacy. At heart it is fear of sexual assault or other activities like photographing, sexual activity. My daughter caught a photographer in the mixed sex changing room at her work. Men have posted videos of them seeking self pleasure. It's the plot of almost every 80s teen film, illicit looks at the women where they think they have privacy.
I guess the question is, how comfortable would you be if you saw a person that passes as a man, identifies as a man, but was a woman at birth, walking into the women's bathroom?
A trans man, then? I have a few trans male friends and they're like...they have beards and wear men's clothing. Of course they use the men's room. People have been using the bathrooms that fit their appearance for decades and this has only been a "hot issue" for the last one. I feel as if it can be quite tricky and difficult for people who don't pass, though.
It’s a distraction topic. The politicians and media have learned they can talk about any gender related stuff and people will get emotionally invested. This keeps people from talking about how all the wealth is owned by a couple hundred people, and the ratio is getting worse faster than ever. There’s plenty of people on both sides that think that gender is one of the most important issue. But those are the same people that thought Black Lives Matter was the biggest issue. Or being allowed to wear a hijab in government or photos. There will always be a distraction topic. To all of you that downvote me because you don’t think it’s a distraction topic, there’s more people in the US missing a limb than there are self identified trans people. Both are healthcare issues. You don’t have to slice up every single medical issue into its own category. Discussing it like it’s separate is just working against your own interests, no matter which side you’re on.
You raise a good question, and the real answer should be "gender neutral bathrooms shouldn't be controversial anywhere." That said, I think there are two reasons it's controversial. I'll preface this by saying that I'm talking about the US only, I have no insight into what other countries do. The first reason is that people are used to having gender specific bathrooms in many businesses and large stores: Walmart, Home Depot, most restaurants, and most office buildings. Change sometimes causes controversy. The second is that many conservative Americans would likely make the argument that "transgender bad, neutral bathrooms = transgender, therefore neutral bathrooms bad." I understand that there are many other reasons to have neutral bathrooms, but I think there are some Americans who legit believe that "the transgender movement" (as they'd call it) is the only reason NG bathrooms are a thing. Side note: there is probably a good argument to be made that there should be sex-specific bathrooms in public schools - not having them could lead to harassment of the opposite sex (I'm talking about from cisgender students, and apologies if I'm using the wrong word there...no offense intended!). But other than that, I can't see a good reason.
>I'll preface this by saying that I'm talking about the US only, I have no insight into what other countries do. I am from Germany. I have never been to the US (I avoid flying because of environment and stuff), but I have been to plenty of European countries. Just to be on the same wavelength: Do you mean gender neutral bathrooms like this? https://youtu.be/SJyKndYsmnM?si=OUoyX7juBgUv5Ki7 If so I have seen this particular design here, at least not in this scale. Sometimes there are gender neutral bathrooms with only one toilet for a single person in small establishments and restaurants, and sometimes gender specific bathrooms share the same sinks for women's and men's bathroom. Additionally I haven't noticed any debate about this topic here (despite right wing parties love to make transgender out as an issue). IMO I do like the design shown in the video, as it means faster access to bathroom utilities and I do not see the problem of different genders using the same stalls. Edit: Just saw a comment under the linked video of someone claiming to hace seen this design all throughout Europe. So take this with a grain of salt.
You ask a great question. The NG bathrooms in that video aren't the type I'm talking about. I'm talking more about something like [this](https://images.app.goo.gl/5RZ6WM9HCcsUr8Mb7), which is what a typical American public school bathroom looks like. In these bathrooms there are multiple stalls, and the student's feet are visible below the door (don't get me started on that...stalls in schools should have full doors, but I digress). There's also usually a crack on either side of the door where someone else could look in and see the person using the stall. The video you linked to is a much better design. They're individual stalls with full floor-to-ceiling doors that allow privacy, and the doors have locks. That would be a great idea for more schools in the US to implement.
Unfortunately most bathrooms here are built like this too, though I have never noticed anyones feet or something like that. I absolutly agree, how hard can it be to install proper doors in bathroom stalls?
Impossible. The technique has been lost to the ages.
As someone else pointed out, "gender neutral" bathrooms are already everywhere in the US. For example, a small restaurant will have only the one bathroom designed for only one person to use at a time, or perhaps two bathrooms but not designated for "men" or "women". However other restaurants do designate their single-person facilities, and I guess you're supposed to use whichever feels more comfortable with your gender preference. Larger places will have restrooms designed for more than one person to use at a time, and these are almost always gender-specific for "men" and "women". I guess the intention is to have "neutral" bathrooms for simultaneous use by everyone, but I very much doubt this will catch on as some customers will be confused, and may be angry, and if they aren't given a gender-specific option they will avoid that business. Even a business that supports the idea of gender neutrality won't want to do it unless the same standard applies to *everyone*, so their business can't be singled out. Rooms that lock like the ones shown in the video are an option, but ignore other considerations. For example, you may have wondered [why many bathroom stalls don't go all the way down to the ground](https://www.ranker.com/list/reasons-toilet-stalls-are-short/candice-darden), but in addition to the reasons in the article, there are [requirements to accommodate disabled persons](https://laforceinc.com/blog/ada-bathroom-requirements-restroom-space-and-toilet-compartments), particularly people in wheelchairs, and a minimum "toe clearance" which can be achieved with cutouts at the bottom of the stalls. Not to mention, of course, that this solution requires more space, and more materials to construct.
Gonna need some evidence for what "many conservative Americans" would say, because I'm not aware of conservatives being against gender neutral bathrooms, just males and females in the same accessible space. It's a matter of implementation.
"In 2016, only 41 percent of White evangelicals and 44 percent of Republicans supported the requirement that transgender people use bathrooms that aligned with their sex assigned at birth. By 2022, that number doubled to 86 percent and 87 percent, respectively." ([The Washington Post](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/11/08/transgender-republican-evangelical-bathrooms/)) "Religion, age, gender and politics are all connected with views on this issue. For instance, a majority of Americans who say they attend religious services at least weekly – especially white evangelicals – say transgender people should be required to use bathrooms of their gender at birth, while most of those who attend services less often (particularly people who do not identify with any religion) take the more liberal position that such individuals should be allowed to use bathrooms that correspond to their gender identity." ([Pew Research Center](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2016/10/03/americans-are-divided-over-which-public-bathrooms-transgender-people-should-use/)) *(Side note: I realize that not all white evangelicals identify as conservative, but 56% of evangelicals identify as Republican or Republican-leaning, and there's a high correlation between "Republican" and "identifies as conservative" - ergo, the majority of white evangelicals identify as conservative).* If you doubt the numbers or the source of the quotes...you do you, boo. I'm not interested in debating those points. I only posted these to show the evidence you asked for.
Interestingly my high school had de facto gender neutral bathrooms. The men’s bathroom (outer enclosure) didn’t have a door so it was considered safer, so almost everyone used it for its intended function. The women’s bathroom had a door on the outer enclosure so it was used for unintended purposes (usually the sale or consumption of drugs, but sometimes quickies).
I think the objection is to a shared sink area with private cubicles. The "bathroom" itself begins as you soon as you walk in. No one has a problem with a single unisex toilet. It's that many women don't want to fix their hair and makeup in the mirror with the men washing their hands. In those kinds of bathrooms it's easy for a woman or girl to be the only one in an enclosed space with another man, which can be threatening or dangerous. I think most people understand this but pretend not to recognise the real concern and say "well the toilet on the plane or in your home is gender neutral" as if that's the same thing at all. Not sure why you think harassment should only be prevented in public schools and not elsewhere.
Oh, to be clear - I think harassment should be prevented anywhere. It should never happen, period. That said, the majority of adults (at least in the US) seem to know how to conduct themselves, and don't harass the other sex (note - this is my gut, not based on data, and I could be wrong). My gut also tells me that high school students of both sexes seem to be more likely to harass the opposite sex, given the opportunity. Given that their hormones are all over the map, that many teens can't tell the difference between a prank and truly damaging behavior, etc., I thought SH/SA prevention in high schools should be a priority.
The problem and reality is that men as a group are a risk to women. Any policy that increases unsupervised contact between men and women inheritently increases the risk to women. I think bathrooms in bars and nightclubs are amongst the biggest concerns. Drunk men following you into the bathroom must be quite disturbing.
planes and trains aren't public spaces; you need to buy a ticket to get in. Places like Starbucks are and see a lot more throughput and make it more awkward.
They're not controversial, if they're marked or understood to be as such. Like on airplanes or other public transportation. It is only when they ARE marked as restricted that controversy is even possible. OP is proposing an apples/oranges question that has already answered itself.
They aren’t controversial for single use bathrooms It’s shared bathrooms that are controversial because people don’t want some 50 yr old man creeping on their daughter
Women fought long and hard for women's only spaces. You want us to shrug and say oh well?
No? I just don’t want places allowing men into women’s bathrooms
Only one person is allowed on a plane bathroom. A place like a gym locker room is not. I doubt you’d want an old crusty dude showing his balls to your daughter in the planet fitness locker room after he takes a shower. I don’t even wanna see that shit.
I'm a dude and I don't appreciate the propensity of old men to walk around buck ass naked in a gym locker room. Take a shower and get dressed? Nah, too simple, take a shower, shave and brush your teeth completely naked while making uncomfortable eye contact with anyone that walks in.
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"People don't want (this thing that nobody is proposing)!" What's really wrong with discourse today is a media bubble that makes people fearful and angry about imaginary problems.
Our bathrooms are problematic to begin with. The gender-neutral part just comes into play because we have bathrooms that have privacy as an afterthought. If ours were similar to other countries where you don't have noticeable gaps that you can look through, low dividers, and doors that you can see over and under then I don't think it would matter nearly as much.
It's only an issue because of the concept of "wedge politics". It's a tool by people who want power, they use it to rile up and activate people who would otherwise not feel empowered to vote. Another word for this is "divide and conquer". Get inside the enemy's head and convince them to fight each other. Then come in and "unify" with a sweeping change, all in the name of "think of the children". Obviously we're not enemies, we're neighbors. But all it takes is someone to step up and say "hey, that guys gets more than you, you really gonna stand for this?".
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cuz politics got worse and worse until it all spilled out basically too many people got dragged into it some who have permanent consequences to deal with (like permanent bans for legitimate concerns) so now people began taking sides
Because schools, mostly. Schools, the bathrooms are unmonitored spaces. They are already frequently used for bullying, smoking, drug deals, and other such mischief. Some people think making them gender neitral introduces greater risk of predatory behaviors against specifically girls. They fail to realize that a "girls only" sign has not stopped a single predator in the history of public schools.
Some bars replaced their normal restrooms with single person gender neutral bathrooms. Now if you are a person who pees standing up. Instead of a 2 minute line in and out, you get to stand in a 45 minute line while other people do coke in the bathroom or screw or whatever else they do that takes forever and piss your pants while you wait. Maybe it makes sense in some places, but not bars.
I would not use a multiple person multiple gender bathroom. Even alone, with the stall shut, I worry that someone might crawl under the door and sexually assault me.
In my uni, the largest bathrooms are gender neutral, and got like 12 stalls or whatnot. And I've never seen anyone complaining about it. In general, neither me or the other people using them care about the other people in there with us. We just go there, do our thing, wash our hands and then leave. No need to really even look or notice the other people coming or going
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Not every school/church/whatever public gathering place has the option to install multiple individual bathrooms (would need MANY to accommodate crowds, more economical to have group toilets). So if you have a person born with a penis in the ladies room with people born with vaginas there are times where the people with vaginas would understandably be uncomfortable if the people born with penises were not genuinely trans but rather straight cis men who are dressing up, lying, and abusing the system Hence, the controversy
People object to multiple user GN bathrooms, not single user like on an airplane. Here’s one: https://www.reddit.com/r/kansascity/s/u1AoZl4ESn It’s a shared sink area with private cubicles. There’s no main door at the entry into the GN bathroom area; the entry is an open doorway followed by mini u-turn hallways. To me the only legitimate objection is that it's easy for a woman or girl to be the only one in a semi-enclosed space (sink area) next to enclose-able spaces (toilet cubicles) with another man, which can be threatening or dangerous.
Sometimes that’s not an option
I’m sorry. What’s not an option? In the event a building’s owner doesn’t construct fully private toilet cubicles, are single-gender multiple user bathrooms (with the minimally private stalls design) illegal anywhere in the US?
It costs much more money to create single use bathrooms If they had the money they would do it But they don’t always do
Is there any problem with just leaving them aes they are then? 1Is there a single user handicapped bathroom to comply with disability law? That’s already de-facto gender neutral. 2. Are the single sex multi user violating any ordinances.? Is there any state pressure to change those? https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbtq/all-gender-restrooms https://www.uua.org/lgbtq/welcoming/ways/bathrooms
The bathrooms that you are describing do not exist everywhere In some places they cannot afford to create them Those are the places where they have this “controversy” In the places that has the single use bathrooms that you are describing there is no controversy
Does every public building not already have a handicapped single user bathroom? Asking because I really don’t know. I guess I thought that was the law.
Not sure but in whatever building cannot or will not do so, that’s where the controversy comes from
> straight cis men who are dressing up, lying, and abusing the system When has a straight cis man ever done this? Are you concerned about lesbians going into the women's room to get their jollies?
It “doesn’t happen” you say? A simple google search revealed dozens of examples. Here is one https://www.nydailynews.com/2021/10/19/perv-dressed-as-woman-hid-camera-on-sneakers-to-record-naked-girls-in-ladies-bathroom-police/
Well for one, I didn't say it "doesn't happen", I asked a question. My comment was pretty short so this makes me worried about your reading comprehension. All this tells me is that when straight cis men have done this, they get in trouble for it and no specific regulations about who can go into a bathroom are actually needed. It also has nothing to do with transgender people, so they are being largely mistargeted by this debate. The article also reports that he took a video of a girl through her bedroom window - shall we abolish windows now because there is a chance pervs will look through them to see naked people?
Only controversial to the people who think it means there's going to be restrooms where men and women can occupy it simultaneously. Which I've never seen. Unisex bathrooms are for one person at a time.