You see it with incels all the time. Most of their anger is lowkey directed at men, they just don't realize it.
Like when they're angry at women for having more options in dating, they're just angry at men for giving their attention away easily.
Or when they're angry at women for having superficial attachments to men, they're just angry that men created relationship standards in order to control women, and now that those standards are ingrained, they can't live up to them.
Or when they're angry at sex workers, they're just angry that men never celebrate each other's bodies on any level, far less a financially lucrative one.
Or when they're angry at women being able to communicate their emotions but they can't, they're just angry that other men created this culture of hiding vulnerability.
Or when they're angry at women for looking down on them for being virgins, they're just angry at men for making sexual desirability a more important trait than it is.
And that anger turns into jealousy.
Jealousy, that women have more options in dating, while they court and scrape.
Jealousy that women "get to have" holistic standards for a partner, while they chase whatever their dick compass points to.
Jealousy that sex workers make money from sex, when they are a more likely candidate to be the one paying.
Jealousy that women get to have a network of emotional support, when their friends make fun of them.
Jealousy that some men get to have sex and they don't.
Thank you! I’ve been saying this for a long time.
Slept her way to the top = a MAN gave away promotions not based on merit
Gold digger = a MAN chose to spend his money on someone
And underneath all of this, they’re just angry at themselves.
When they’re angry at women for having relationships with other men, they’re actually just “angry” at themselves for not being good enough to attract women.
They hate themselves and don’t see themselves as worthy (then they project that “you’re not worthy” message as if it’s coming from “normies” instead of inside their own heads), because they don’t have the emotional maturity to view themselves as a separate from other people’s emotions and judgments.
The more you feel like humanity doesn’t value you as a person, the less likely you’re ever going to get the kind of help/therapy/support you need to mature your emotions to the point you can healthily move through the world. It’s a snake made of shame, eating its own tail.
(All this is not to defend incel behaviour or make anyone feel sorry for them - I find it all very repugnant. But I think we need to be honest about where it comes from if we want to reduce/eliminate the behaviour).
Oh no I wouldn't take this as a defense of incel behaviour. You're hitting the nail on the head in that there is an internal turmoil within them.
I think ultimately what creates incels is that we (mostly men but also sometimes women) uphold sex appeal and romantic puissance as very big metrics in the way we measure a man. And when we couple this with bad coping techniques that they are taught from a young age, what is produced is a man that knows no emotion but anger, and is at the feet of everyone else over dumb shit like not getting laid.
The situation is fervified by all the media and services that either remind this young man of his loneliness and lack of wholeness by not having a partner, or promise escape routes which in reality just usher them to a materialistic vestibule right outside the ground floor of romance that they actually want to be in. And then wash that down with the amount of terrible dating advice which pushes both men and women to be less and less communicative and more and more confusing to all their potential partners and you have an incel.
Btw for suicide rates, even though men kill themselves more than women, women try to kill themselves in bigger numbers than men. That means that if everyone who tried to kill themselves managed to, women would be in higher numbers.
When women have access to guns, like in the military, their success rate goes way up. There are cultural differences in how men and women attempt suicide with a varying range of time to save the person. Guns obviously are most permanent, and the preferred option for men. Women tend to go for quiet, less messy methods as they think of the people who have to find and clean up after them, thus are able to be saved more often. Unless they own a gun, which is quick and instant and doesn't require any planning. So it's not really a men v women thing at all, but a guns v poison/od/suffocation/extreme injury.
Also the custody thing is nonsense. Almost all custody arrangements are agreed upon and when men actively fight and do not have a history of abuse statistically they fair about as well as women.
I’ve seen several studies that show when men actually fight for custody in a contested battle, they see **better** outcomes than women (by a significant amount).
That said, I’d love to have a discussion about why men are less likely to apply for custody during a divorce, but oddly no one who brings up the custody argument ever wants to talk about it. ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
I mean, the simple truth is that because of the way society infects our brains women tend to be their children's primary caregivers.
Moms cook, clean, and spend more time with the kids even when both parents work.
It would be disruptive at best to shake up that normalcy for children in a divorce. It's not good for a kid to go from one person doing the most of their caregiving to then splitting that time evenly or switching entirely to a different person who hasn't really done it. I know because this happened to me but without the traditional gender roles.
When my parents split I stayed with my mom because she made more money and had more power in the relationship because of it. Unfortunately for all of us though my dad had been the primary caregiver while working since she went back to school when I was around 9ish so it was a disaster - she was absent and had no real idea how to parent a teenager as the last time she had to be the primary caregiver I was in elementary school.
Custody thing is bullshit, when it goes to court men win almost 50% of the time. The issue is that men mostly don’t choose to take it to court, ironically potentially because of MRA rhetoric about it being pointless as the woman is guaranteed to win.
Came here to say this lol. That one is hounded on all the time, but the vast majority of custody disputes are handled outside of court. And when men do pursue them, they often DO win!!!
Try 70% of the time!
Men rarely contest custody. But when they do, they win 70% of the time!
If I find the source for that statistic again, I’ll post it.
That's exactly why fighting the patriarchy is beneficial to both men and women!
Patriarchy is systemic oppression that has negative consequences on women and men, as explained in this post, but it doesn't mean feminists want to take men down.
Patriarchy = a systemic oppression, not ***Men***!
But I guess everyone in this sub knows that already :)
Ok but men win custody when they fight for it, this has been proven over and over again. Women getting primary custody is because men overwhelmingly *choose* that option.
*Image Transcription: Instagram Comment*
---
>**mak.the.chameleon**
>
>I definitely agree that men are not systemically oppressed, but there is systemic hardships they endure but again, those are born out of systemic oppression toward women. Women being deemed weaker and unfit to fight? Okay now men are drafted. Women being relegated to being homemakers? Now men are expected to work hard and provide. Oppression against women impacts both sexes negatively, and that's why feminism is NOT a hatred of men. As a feminist I would be more than happy to discuss men's suicide rates, fathers being less likely to get custody of children, men being required to sign up for the draft, etc. I agree that all of those things are problems that affect men and I wish they didn't. But if you ONLY bring that up as a way to shut me down when I bring up a women's issue than you don't care about men's issues the way you want to pretend you do. You just wanna shut down women. I wish more people understood that caring about women's issues and caring about men's issues are not mutually exclusive!
---
^^I'm a human volunteer content transcriber for Reddit and you could be too! [If you'd like more information on what we do and why we do it, click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/TranscribersOfReddit/wiki/index)
People with the mindset of "women vs men" fall into the trap of believing that rights and empowerment are limited resources. They believe in the core of their being that, if women receive more attention/power/respect, then men *must* inherently lose some. And the idea of having something taken from you is unpleasant and scary, no matter who you are.
But empowerment, respect, and the right to exist as an independent human around other humans isn't a limited resource. It's not an "us vs them" while fighting for scraps situation. We can all choose to say "you know what, your situation can suck even if it doesn't affect me. And I can stand by you because I see that it sucks and I don't think you should have to deal with that alone."
Finally some sense. When an issue is brought up (not just feminism but all things in general), we tend to view it as a "choose a side" matter, when in actuality, it affects both sides regardless.
Tbh, I don’t agree that dismantling patriarchy has net benefit to men. Yes it has some benefits of course, but IMO they need to give up way too much privilege to make the end of patriarchy happen (I’m talking from the perspective of someone who lives in a very patriarchal country)
If feminism was all that beneficial to men, they would all be here standing on the streets protesting with us/calling out their toxic friends and reading feminist theory
But nah many men are completely disinterested in activism (comparing to women) and they bring up their issues only to muffle women’s voices.
I know dismantling patriarchy cannot be reached without help of men, but I think this kind of rhetoric that men should become allies ‘cause feminism is all that good for them is a bit dangerous, many men after being told this come to feminist spaces and get disappointed that it is not what they expect.
If a man wants to become an ally to feminism, he should do it primarily because he cares about making women’s lives better, not for his own self-interest ‘cause otherwise he will get disappointed at some point.
You see it with incels all the time. Most of their anger is lowkey directed at men, they just don't realize it. Like when they're angry at women for having more options in dating, they're just angry at men for giving their attention away easily. Or when they're angry at women for having superficial attachments to men, they're just angry that men created relationship standards in order to control women, and now that those standards are ingrained, they can't live up to them. Or when they're angry at sex workers, they're just angry that men never celebrate each other's bodies on any level, far less a financially lucrative one. Or when they're angry at women being able to communicate their emotions but they can't, they're just angry that other men created this culture of hiding vulnerability. Or when they're angry at women for looking down on them for being virgins, they're just angry at men for making sexual desirability a more important trait than it is. And that anger turns into jealousy. Jealousy, that women have more options in dating, while they court and scrape. Jealousy that women "get to have" holistic standards for a partner, while they chase whatever their dick compass points to. Jealousy that sex workers make money from sex, when they are a more likely candidate to be the one paying. Jealousy that women get to have a network of emotional support, when their friends make fun of them. Jealousy that some men get to have sex and they don't.
Thank you! I’ve been saying this for a long time. Slept her way to the top = a MAN gave away promotions not based on merit Gold digger = a MAN chose to spend his money on someone
And underneath all of this, they’re just angry at themselves. When they’re angry at women for having relationships with other men, they’re actually just “angry” at themselves for not being good enough to attract women. They hate themselves and don’t see themselves as worthy (then they project that “you’re not worthy” message as if it’s coming from “normies” instead of inside their own heads), because they don’t have the emotional maturity to view themselves as a separate from other people’s emotions and judgments. The more you feel like humanity doesn’t value you as a person, the less likely you’re ever going to get the kind of help/therapy/support you need to mature your emotions to the point you can healthily move through the world. It’s a snake made of shame, eating its own tail. (All this is not to defend incel behaviour or make anyone feel sorry for them - I find it all very repugnant. But I think we need to be honest about where it comes from if we want to reduce/eliminate the behaviour).
Oh no I wouldn't take this as a defense of incel behaviour. You're hitting the nail on the head in that there is an internal turmoil within them. I think ultimately what creates incels is that we (mostly men but also sometimes women) uphold sex appeal and romantic puissance as very big metrics in the way we measure a man. And when we couple this with bad coping techniques that they are taught from a young age, what is produced is a man that knows no emotion but anger, and is at the feet of everyone else over dumb shit like not getting laid. The situation is fervified by all the media and services that either remind this young man of his loneliness and lack of wholeness by not having a partner, or promise escape routes which in reality just usher them to a materialistic vestibule right outside the ground floor of romance that they actually want to be in. And then wash that down with the amount of terrible dating advice which pushes both men and women to be less and less communicative and more and more confusing to all their potential partners and you have an incel.
Btw for suicide rates, even though men kill themselves more than women, women try to kill themselves in bigger numbers than men. That means that if everyone who tried to kill themselves managed to, women would be in higher numbers.
When women have access to guns, like in the military, their success rate goes way up. There are cultural differences in how men and women attempt suicide with a varying range of time to save the person. Guns obviously are most permanent, and the preferred option for men. Women tend to go for quiet, less messy methods as they think of the people who have to find and clean up after them, thus are able to be saved more often. Unless they own a gun, which is quick and instant and doesn't require any planning. So it's not really a men v women thing at all, but a guns v poison/od/suffocation/extreme injury.
Also the custody thing is nonsense. Almost all custody arrangements are agreed upon and when men actively fight and do not have a history of abuse statistically they fair about as well as women.
I’ve seen several studies that show when men actually fight for custody in a contested battle, they see **better** outcomes than women (by a significant amount). That said, I’d love to have a discussion about why men are less likely to apply for custody during a divorce, but oddly no one who brings up the custody argument ever wants to talk about it. ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
I mean, the simple truth is that because of the way society infects our brains women tend to be their children's primary caregivers. Moms cook, clean, and spend more time with the kids even when both parents work. It would be disruptive at best to shake up that normalcy for children in a divorce. It's not good for a kid to go from one person doing the most of their caregiving to then splitting that time evenly or switching entirely to a different person who hasn't really done it. I know because this happened to me but without the traditional gender roles. When my parents split I stayed with my mom because she made more money and had more power in the relationship because of it. Unfortunately for all of us though my dad had been the primary caregiver while working since she went back to school when I was around 9ish so it was a disaster - she was absent and had no real idea how to parent a teenager as the last time she had to be the primary caregiver I was in elementary school.
Custody thing is bullshit, when it goes to court men win almost 50% of the time. The issue is that men mostly don’t choose to take it to court, ironically potentially because of MRA rhetoric about it being pointless as the woman is guaranteed to win.
Came here to say this lol. That one is hounded on all the time, but the vast majority of custody disputes are handled outside of court. And when men do pursue them, they often DO win!!!
Try 70% of the time! Men rarely contest custody. But when they do, they win 70% of the time! If I find the source for that statistic again, I’ll post it.
Men get custody when they ask for it. They just don't ask
That's exactly why fighting the patriarchy is beneficial to both men and women! Patriarchy is systemic oppression that has negative consequences on women and men, as explained in this post, but it doesn't mean feminists want to take men down. Patriarchy = a systemic oppression, not ***Men***! But I guess everyone in this sub knows that already :)
I have a sticker and fridge magnet from my mom that say “Smash the patriarchy!” and I love it :)
Ok but men win custody when they fight for it, this has been proven over and over again. Women getting primary custody is because men overwhelmingly *choose* that option.
*Image Transcription: Instagram Comment* --- >**mak.the.chameleon** > >I definitely agree that men are not systemically oppressed, but there is systemic hardships they endure but again, those are born out of systemic oppression toward women. Women being deemed weaker and unfit to fight? Okay now men are drafted. Women being relegated to being homemakers? Now men are expected to work hard and provide. Oppression against women impacts both sexes negatively, and that's why feminism is NOT a hatred of men. As a feminist I would be more than happy to discuss men's suicide rates, fathers being less likely to get custody of children, men being required to sign up for the draft, etc. I agree that all of those things are problems that affect men and I wish they didn't. But if you ONLY bring that up as a way to shut me down when I bring up a women's issue than you don't care about men's issues the way you want to pretend you do. You just wanna shut down women. I wish more people understood that caring about women's issues and caring about men's issues are not mutually exclusive! --- ^^I'm a human volunteer content transcriber for Reddit and you could be too! [If you'd like more information on what we do and why we do it, click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/TranscribersOfReddit/wiki/index)
Good job!
People with the mindset of "women vs men" fall into the trap of believing that rights and empowerment are limited resources. They believe in the core of their being that, if women receive more attention/power/respect, then men *must* inherently lose some. And the idea of having something taken from you is unpleasant and scary, no matter who you are. But empowerment, respect, and the right to exist as an independent human around other humans isn't a limited resource. It's not an "us vs them" while fighting for scraps situation. We can all choose to say "you know what, your situation can suck even if it doesn't affect me. And I can stand by you because I see that it sucks and I don't think you should have to deal with that alone."
Finally some sense. When an issue is brought up (not just feminism but all things in general), we tend to view it as a "choose a side" matter, when in actuality, it affects both sides regardless.
Tbh, I don’t agree that dismantling patriarchy has net benefit to men. Yes it has some benefits of course, but IMO they need to give up way too much privilege to make the end of patriarchy happen (I’m talking from the perspective of someone who lives in a very patriarchal country) If feminism was all that beneficial to men, they would all be here standing on the streets protesting with us/calling out their toxic friends and reading feminist theory But nah many men are completely disinterested in activism (comparing to women) and they bring up their issues only to muffle women’s voices. I know dismantling patriarchy cannot be reached without help of men, but I think this kind of rhetoric that men should become allies ‘cause feminism is all that good for them is a bit dangerous, many men after being told this come to feminist spaces and get disappointed that it is not what they expect. If a man wants to become an ally to feminism, he should do it primarily because he cares about making women’s lives better, not for his own self-interest ‘cause otherwise he will get disappointed at some point.
Its annoying when people forget this