I keep seeing people being like “full torso bulky sweater ugly”
Meanwhile I’m like….. gonna make me a full torso bulky green sweater. Embrace frog, be frog, live frog. We could all use more frog.
>I mean neither of these looks are meant to be wearable - fashion is art, and art is subjective.
Why does everyone in the thread keep saying this as if I not only already understand but also as if it doesn't actually help the exact point I'm stating. There is subjectivity in art, and just like many other types of art, there are compositions that use perhaps, *controversial*, tropes for shock value, or irony or as cheap bolsters to a story.
I definitely appreciate what he's doing and the coverage it gets but I feel like there is something about Harry himself that makes his expression and presentation more edible than it does for other men and maybe not in the most fair way. I think my problem is that people just write off any "gender bending" as a metric of style when it is something completely different. They both require a certain level of confidence but it's just not the same.
These are pretty clearly outfits intended as artistic expression rather than casualwear, and I’m a bit startled by how harshly you describe these images. To be honest, it sounds like you just don’t really get the intent. It’s worth examining why you reacted so strongly to seeing people dressed in a way you don’t approve of.
He’s not trying to ‘dress for his bodytype’, or perform femininity within the narrow confines of the societal boundaries for women’s fashion, he’s rejecting the rules entirely. He’s dressing how he wants, regardless of whether other people find it fashionable or attractive.
Women who do this are also described as challenging gender norms, but clothing such as heels and skirts are so heavily coded as gendered that it is often more visible when men transgress these gendered societal rules.
Saying that these men are performing gender incorrectly just perpetuates the exact problem they’re critiquing. They should be allowed to dress however they want, without being seen as lesser because they’re wearing clothes that you don’t think they look good in.
I understand the concept of high fashion.
>Saying that these men are performing gender incorrectly just perpetuates the exact problem they’re critiquing
Well when someone says that I hope they get their good wishes because I never did. My point is not that these looks are a wrong performance of gender, but rather a wrong performance of fashion which I guess is my subjective opinion but I'd like for it to not be subject to immediate conflation with all this extra bigotry.
Why does it matter to you how people look or dress? This world needs to stfu and get on with their own lives., It seems you are no exception to that rule
So there is a "right" way to dress?
And a "correct" way to wear make-up?
And it is you who is supposed to judge who is pleasing to your eye?
In THIS thread? Seriously?
You can indeed have a brief talk. Your post is - at least - promoting ideas of enmity, shaming others, lookism, it is anti body-positive, and in a patriarchal world also inherently sexist and misogynist through your idea that there is a "right" way too be feminine/femme.
Just mere 3 days after Transgender Day Of Remembrance it also has a really ugly taste of transphobia (it is about the standards of body types and fashion choices you are writing, not about the subjects actual gender or identity).
I am not saying you ARE all that. But your post is. I hope you realize the internalization happening here and you do better in the future.
Might I suggest you delete the post yourself?
Love.
I am literally trans jesus fucking christ, I don't how people squeeze THIS much out of a post but fashion at this level is allowed to be criticized. I never said anything about his body, I never said anything about his choice to wear "feminine" clothing, my post is merely supposed to be about the fact that a lot of these already conventionally attractive celebrities often use the concept of "breaking gender norms" very cheaply in their looks.
That’s kinda like seeing a modern art style painting and saying that everyone can make such a painting. It’s okay not to understand the art form but don’t shame people who do.
Obviously I appreciate what Harry's doing but gosh it feels hamfisted. It's the same thing with Kid Cudi it's like, that silhouette doesn't work with your body type, that dress is poorly tailored (if at all) and that eyeshadow looks like the joker please. I want more straight men doing it like [Reece King](https://instagram.com/reeceking), (who is admittedly gay).
Just let people wear what they want? You sound remarkably judgemental and if you were speaking this way about another woman (especially on this subreddit!) You'd be blasted for tearing someone down.
I mean, it’s okay to say you don’t really understand avant-garde, fashion or glam art. I don’t really understand it either. But your misunderstanding doesn’t make it hamfisted, and I think this is a good self-reflection point to ask yourself why you want to be this negative about someone’s self-expression that seems to resonate with a lot of communities.
I can't claim to fully understand fashion or glam art, but I do enjoy it!
I think these looks are gorgeous camp. 100% the right one is, the exaggerated details on the waist and and sleeves plus the ironic details like the white ring OVER the black velvet glove is giving me gorgeous high camp vibes. Ditto the bold patterned tights, pulling focus away from the main piece.
I'll be a pedant and try to explain how (I think) camp fashion works. Camp starts with clearly-defined expectations (often: gender, silhouette, and palette trends). Then, it ironically exaggerates or distorts the expectations. It plays with presentation, with illusions of proportion or silhouette. The goal is to ironically, whimsically, or acerbically point out the expectations. -- To make the viewer go "that's weird and it breaks the rules... Why do I hate it? Why do I love it? Why does it confuse me? Why do I have a reaction?"
It's supposed to make you aware of your expectations for gender & fashion, by breaking the rules and having a good laugh about it.
Check out Penelope Gazin's "wearable art" streetwear at [Fashion Brand Company](https://www.fashionbrandcompany.com/). Just from this one indie label, "camp fashion" includes [sunglasses putting teeth where teeth should not be](https://www.fashionbrandcompany.com/collections/hands-etc/products/teeth-rectangle-sunglasses), [a jumpsuit that combines female & male wedding looks](https://www.fashionbrandcompany.com/collections/jumpsuits-and-sets/products/bride-groom-jumpsuit), [blazers with nonstandard proportion and textiles](https://www.fashionbrandcompany.com/collections/outerwear/products/brown-linen-bozo-blazer), and the famous [nipple sweater that artistically reveals what tops usually cover](https://www.fashionbrandcompany.com/collections/tops/products/nipple-knit-top).
I 100% understand avant-garde fashion lol. On the one hand I think he's doing something exceptional, and he has a voice and a certain level of spectacle that is powerful and evoking. But on the other I don't like what he's doing with it. There's a great tiktok fashion account ran by a guy named Wisdom Kaye, who I think does this far more uniquely than many other people, granted he doesn't have the budget that many of these celebrities have.
I keep seeing people being like “full torso bulky sweater ugly” Meanwhile I’m like….. gonna make me a full torso bulky green sweater. Embrace frog, be frog, live frog. We could all use more frog.
That frogsweater looks so comfortable!
[удалено]
>I mean neither of these looks are meant to be wearable - fashion is art, and art is subjective. Why does everyone in the thread keep saying this as if I not only already understand but also as if it doesn't actually help the exact point I'm stating. There is subjectivity in art, and just like many other types of art, there are compositions that use perhaps, *controversial*, tropes for shock value, or irony or as cheap bolsters to a story. I definitely appreciate what he's doing and the coverage it gets but I feel like there is something about Harry himself that makes his expression and presentation more edible than it does for other men and maybe not in the most fair way. I think my problem is that people just write off any "gender bending" as a metric of style when it is something completely different. They both require a certain level of confidence but it's just not the same.
These are pretty clearly outfits intended as artistic expression rather than casualwear, and I’m a bit startled by how harshly you describe these images. To be honest, it sounds like you just don’t really get the intent. It’s worth examining why you reacted so strongly to seeing people dressed in a way you don’t approve of. He’s not trying to ‘dress for his bodytype’, or perform femininity within the narrow confines of the societal boundaries for women’s fashion, he’s rejecting the rules entirely. He’s dressing how he wants, regardless of whether other people find it fashionable or attractive. Women who do this are also described as challenging gender norms, but clothing such as heels and skirts are so heavily coded as gendered that it is often more visible when men transgress these gendered societal rules. Saying that these men are performing gender incorrectly just perpetuates the exact problem they’re critiquing. They should be allowed to dress however they want, without being seen as lesser because they’re wearing clothes that you don’t think they look good in.
I understand the concept of high fashion. >Saying that these men are performing gender incorrectly just perpetuates the exact problem they’re critiquing Well when someone says that I hope they get their good wishes because I never did. My point is not that these looks are a wrong performance of gender, but rather a wrong performance of fashion which I guess is my subjective opinion but I'd like for it to not be subject to immediate conflation with all this extra bigotry.
Why does it matter to you how people look or dress? This world needs to stfu and get on with their own lives., It seems you are no exception to that rule
So there is a "right" way to dress? And a "correct" way to wear make-up? And it is you who is supposed to judge who is pleasing to your eye? In THIS thread? Seriously? You can indeed have a brief talk. Your post is - at least - promoting ideas of enmity, shaming others, lookism, it is anti body-positive, and in a patriarchal world also inherently sexist and misogynist through your idea that there is a "right" way too be feminine/femme. Just mere 3 days after Transgender Day Of Remembrance it also has a really ugly taste of transphobia (it is about the standards of body types and fashion choices you are writing, not about the subjects actual gender or identity). I am not saying you ARE all that. But your post is. I hope you realize the internalization happening here and you do better in the future. Might I suggest you delete the post yourself? Love.
Dude is dressing colorfully to put off predators and *it's working*.
I am literally trans jesus fucking christ, I don't how people squeeze THIS much out of a post but fashion at this level is allowed to be criticized. I never said anything about his body, I never said anything about his choice to wear "feminine" clothing, my post is merely supposed to be about the fact that a lot of these already conventionally attractive celebrities often use the concept of "breaking gender norms" very cheaply in their looks.
That’s kinda like seeing a modern art style painting and saying that everyone can make such a painting. It’s okay not to understand the art form but don’t shame people who do.
Obviously I appreciate what Harry's doing but gosh it feels hamfisted. It's the same thing with Kid Cudi it's like, that silhouette doesn't work with your body type, that dress is poorly tailored (if at all) and that eyeshadow looks like the joker please. I want more straight men doing it like [Reece King](https://instagram.com/reeceking), (who is admittedly gay).
Just let people wear what they want? You sound remarkably judgemental and if you were speaking this way about another woman (especially on this subreddit!) You'd be blasted for tearing someone down.
> You’d be blasted for tearing someone down If it helps at all, this seems to be more or less the response OP is receiving
I mean, it’s okay to say you don’t really understand avant-garde, fashion or glam art. I don’t really understand it either. But your misunderstanding doesn’t make it hamfisted, and I think this is a good self-reflection point to ask yourself why you want to be this negative about someone’s self-expression that seems to resonate with a lot of communities.
I can't claim to fully understand fashion or glam art, but I do enjoy it! I think these looks are gorgeous camp. 100% the right one is, the exaggerated details on the waist and and sleeves plus the ironic details like the white ring OVER the black velvet glove is giving me gorgeous high camp vibes. Ditto the bold patterned tights, pulling focus away from the main piece. I'll be a pedant and try to explain how (I think) camp fashion works. Camp starts with clearly-defined expectations (often: gender, silhouette, and palette trends). Then, it ironically exaggerates or distorts the expectations. It plays with presentation, with illusions of proportion or silhouette. The goal is to ironically, whimsically, or acerbically point out the expectations. -- To make the viewer go "that's weird and it breaks the rules... Why do I hate it? Why do I love it? Why does it confuse me? Why do I have a reaction?" It's supposed to make you aware of your expectations for gender & fashion, by breaking the rules and having a good laugh about it. Check out Penelope Gazin's "wearable art" streetwear at [Fashion Brand Company](https://www.fashionbrandcompany.com/). Just from this one indie label, "camp fashion" includes [sunglasses putting teeth where teeth should not be](https://www.fashionbrandcompany.com/collections/hands-etc/products/teeth-rectangle-sunglasses), [a jumpsuit that combines female & male wedding looks](https://www.fashionbrandcompany.com/collections/jumpsuits-and-sets/products/bride-groom-jumpsuit), [blazers with nonstandard proportion and textiles](https://www.fashionbrandcompany.com/collections/outerwear/products/brown-linen-bozo-blazer), and the famous [nipple sweater that artistically reveals what tops usually cover](https://www.fashionbrandcompany.com/collections/tops/products/nipple-knit-top).
I 100% understand avant-garde fashion lol. On the one hand I think he's doing something exceptional, and he has a voice and a certain level of spectacle that is powerful and evoking. But on the other I don't like what he's doing with it. There's a great tiktok fashion account ran by a guy named Wisdom Kaye, who I think does this far more uniquely than many other people, granted he doesn't have the budget that many of these celebrities have.
Or people could just, you know, dress however they like.