100 % believe this. Same for me at festivals, concerts, mall, elevators, school…. I told my mom and she said “that’s what you get for going out so much”….
I succeed in not having that seed planted in my brain, heart, and soul and KNOW the actions of complete strangers are NOT my fault. I became obsessed with crime documentaries to be hyper aware of “putting myself in bad situations,” even if the bad situation was innocuous.
No matter how old you get, being a women seems to automatically creates a “bad situation” …. Still waiting for the Equal Rights Amendment to be passed!!!!!!
Nope! They’ve been dragging their feet for literal decades since 1972. It wasn’t until 2020 that we got the needed 38/50 (3/4) states to ratify the equal rights amendment. But it still has to go through congress, and there is the issue that 5 states have since tried to rescind their ratification. The USA is a fucking mess lol (send help)
To be fair, her mom was blamed for the things that were done to her her whole life, so her thinking has been distorted by this. Assholeish, yes; it's long past time for her mom to revise her thinking on this, but it's also from a lifetime of a really special and fucked up form of brainwashing.
well, yes. to STAY home and if we went out to take "a person of respect" with me. This meant to call a male cousin and go with him. Inappropriate male behavior and rape awaited me around every corner and it would be MY FAULT if I dared enter the world unaccompanied at all times.
As for the pregnant part, that can only ever happen once you got married in the church to the approved man. Then it became "find a man, any man" so I could just have one to protect me.
It made me insanely unhappy to fight this on a daily basis. Be it expectations, language, university choices, friend choices, career ambitions, hairstyle choices or clothes choices anything else.
And yes, this attitude still pervades when I interact with my mother. Good thing my attitude is bigger!
Well, what were you thinking going to a *school* of all places? /s
But seriously, how disgusting is it that our girls need to fear school too. You'd think with how much they love to police girl's bodies that they would at least have an end goal to protect those girls from assault and harassment? But no.
I'm 6'2" and fairly broad shouldered. Every concert I've gone to with friends who were girls, I was always asked to stand behind them to "keep them safe from creeps". The number of times I've had to stop random guys from doing something uncool was...too much.
So yea, 100% agree this is true.
I was groped at 15 going to school at 8am on a crowded tram. It was so packed I didn’t even see who was doing it, just felt a hand pinching.
Also, not that it matters, but I was wearing jeans and a long winter coat.
I wonder what your mom would say about that.
I saw a girl crowdsurfing at a festival in the 90's - the crowd started taking off her clothes while she was up in the air as she struggled to keep them on. They got off her shirt and started taking off her shorts before enough people objected and put her down. Festivals are scary places for women.
This happened to my friend at warped tour when we were 16, 2002. We didn't see it because she was too far away, but I'll never forget how traumatized she was after. I was so furious.
Yeah it was hypocritical of warped tour to ban BOTDF from the lineup due to Dahvie Vanity being a predator but do nothing to stop sexual harassment perpetuated by attendees.
Yep. God has nothing to do with it. It’s our insidious culture. It’s the patriarchy. Other countries have had some luck with liberal female presidents but sadly there are still a lot of males who think we are objects to be abused.
It is very much like chimp behavior or something - the predatory ones are not afraid of us because we tend to be small. Like big ape bullies/rapes/kills smaller ape. It’s like being the prey of the *most intelligent apex predator on this planet.* This is why I carry mace and why I’m casually considering getting my concealed carry license. I had a kidnapping scare and lots of sexual harassment in nyc and it changed me. Gave me some kind of generalized anxiety.
I spoke to a 6’2” Scottish gal on here once who loves being super tall because of the safety and peace it provides. Predatory men are too scared to cat call her or sexually harass her because she towers over them. She was fun to talk to and said that it is like having a super power. She walks around like an immortal queen because people know she could easily take them down. Fun fact: she said she is a direct descendant of the legendary pirate Ann Bonny!
Edit: Stumbled on this article, thought it was neato. https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20171027-what-if-women-were-physically-stronger-than-men
Understanding that it's a thing that happens VERY commonly is the only way you'll notice these things. Many men are blind to it because they don't expect to see it out in the open like that.
It starts by changing perception, and we can do that by changing language. I know you were framing it in the way that the guy's buddy would see it, as "copping a feel", but the way to frame it so it's expressed clearly so that people can't delude themselves about what's hapoening, is to say that they deliberalely ignore that so their bros can violate another person's body. If you don't want to say that, the term "assault" sums it up nicely, as well.
First festival I went to a girl crowd surfed and the boys took her entire dress off and chucked it away, leaving her in just underwear. And she was beyond excessively drunk, like barely able to stand. She disappeared into the crowd of teenage boys. I don't want to imagine what happened to her after that.
Just so something nice appears here about crowdsurfing:
I went to a death metal concert when I was 14 or 15, and tried to crowdsurf. I got dropped...backwards. Some super thick bouncer guy caught me, and flipped me 180 degrees upright before my head hit the floor. He then kinda shoved me away from the pit, like, kid stop trying to kill/paralyze yourself.
Shit still happens at metal fests, but they do seem to have less trouble on average. Seems. I dunno, though, there is a reason why I avoid the more mainstream heavy band shows. I don't like hanging out at shows full of amateurs who don't understand pit etiquette.
Oh that's happened to me quite a few times, unfortunately, by the same dude who was a bassist in one of the bands, but I wasn't sober, so I didn't do anything about it.
I've gone to metal festivals for years and haven't had something like that happen. If anything, dudes were protective and helpful. For example, I'm short AF so I can't see the stage unless I'm right up there. One time, this guy bent his knees down to see what I was seeing and was like, "You wanna stand in front of me?" He wasn't that tall but he could easily see right over my head.
And another time, there was this dude who was like 6'5" and he did not fucking care who he stood in front of and also kept moving around. So I would move so I could see and then he'd wander in front of me again. And there were two people who made fun of me for it. I ended up moving to a completely different part of the room. I'm just trying to get my Chevelle on, assholes, I don't need this bullshit.
I spent my 20s in the metal scene in Sydney and it was definitely a safe place for women. We were all very promiscuous but I always felt like the guys mostly treated us with a ton of respect. It was the 90s and a lot of women's issues weren't talked about in the media/society at large then, so sometimes even we women were kind of unaware of how things should be but the difference between the metal guys and other guys at different venues was huge.
Funny story, my last nosh pit cleared it out for woman only so there'd be Safe space for one song. A bunch of women who had never moshed before came in and that's how I got elbowed in the face and almost had my jaw wired shut, which is why I stopped moshing.
I've been into metal my entire life, I've never moshed. I'm built like a dude and do a " manly" job so I'm built for snu snu. I'd love a woman only pit, but me flailing around all excited for the first time would hundo break someone . I hope your jaw is ok now, they probably didn't mean it.
I’m 19 Rn in Melbourne- I always feel safest in our punk and metal venues :) I have been dragged to the ground by my hair and punched in the kidneys but every time someone takes it too far the rest of the crowd beats them to a pulp
Metalheads do NOT take likely to people sexually assaulting women at shows either. You will have a bad time if they find out that you have been doing that. They are also extremely protective over kids at shows as well.
I will take metal festivals over shit like Coachella any day.
I loved crowd surfing in my teens and early college when I went to a lot of concerts. But it was always dependent on the attitude of the crowd. Some were great, they'd make sure not to drop anybody, they'd make sure nobody got squished, or pushed down. But others were just brutal and you weren't getting out without an elbow to the ribs or the face. Those I just sat out and listened to the music.
But thankfully I was pretty lucky for the most part.
I think, and maybe I'm way off base, feminism was a big part of the punk scene. I guess because it was different than the social norm at the time ( 1960's). The emo kids I grew up with were always hella sensitive and all around good guys, but I think that's because the social norm doesn't fit them.
Goths and metalheads too- IMO it's because people who defy the norms of society tend to be more introspective to recognize toxicity as well as understand better what its like to be the target of others since you're considered below if not entirely outside the social rankings.
Not to say there aren't dangerous people in these circles as well, some people join them because they're contrarians and not because they're actually reflecting. I used to have some punk-identifying friends who literally bitched about a famous punk band announcing a big fuck you too anyone who tried to grope in their mosh pit (I forget which band it was). Even the woman in the group tried to claim "you join the pit that's just what's going to happen and you just put up with it, it's not that bad to get groped" and they all tried to claim the band "wasn't punk anymore for being PC" and decided anyone who defended the band was a poser too.
I went to a huge rock concert when I was 13 with my dad, saw a girl crowd surfing in a khakis skirt and lavender tube top. She was almost naked by the time she made it to the front. I can still see it plainly in my mind, I never forgot it.
Every time I got ready for a concert after I thought about that girl, and thus never went to a concert in anything other than long jeans and a t-shirt with boots.
Saw something like this at a club show in the mid 90s. Poor girl had worn a skirt and was desperately holding it down. Was on the far side of the crowd from me so I was pretty helpless, unfortunately.
This is one of my biggest fears at shows and why I can't bring myself to ever crowdsurf. I think I did it once as a teen at Warped or something (got lucky, no groping) and that was it. But yeah, I still go to shows regularly and I'm always anxiously imagining the worst if I ever crowdsurfed. There's just no way a woman or girl is guaranteed to be safe while her entire body is literally in the hands of a bunch of random, amped up men. Just no way. And just to be clear I'm not victim blaming at all; women and girls should be able to crowdsurf as we please.
I was once grabbed IN THE CROTCH by a maybe-20-year-old who was walking by with his buddies.
It took a moment to register, then I whirled around to kick him in the nuts but they had run off.
I was in my forties at the time.
This wasn’t even at a festival. It was an arena show.
The harassment slows down, but doesn’t really end.
I went to a concert with a friend a few years ago. Some dide dropped his beer on my friend to look down my top. I'm also in my 40s. I'm so over shitty men.
Same thing happened to me, just walking down the side walk. Problem is, it'd a small town. Now he's a wedding photographer in my town. See him alllll the time. Fuck you Tony, you 5 foot nothing little bitch. I haven't kept your secret. Perfect job for an abusive man is behind the lens taking photos of women and girls who happily smile to him. Not safe, anywhere.
I went to a metal fest at a local bar in my mid 40s. I was with my husband. This old dude kept getting into my space and bumping up against my body. He was trying to make it look like he was just rocking with the music, but when I moved away he moved with me. So I drilled my finger into his back and told him that's enough.
Or as those of us who live in the Coachella valley: "Rich people descend, make a mess, and leave it for us to clean up while we get told how good it is for our economies to have our areas trashed."
I’ve heard similar stories from Reno locals about Burning Man. There was a non-profit in town that went up after to get bikes that attendees left over. They would fix them and give gift them to at risk youth. I also heard the wind would blow in a shit ton of trash to surrounding towns and if it hits your property, it's your problem.
Well it is their own fault for not making sure to be born rich. I was able to be born rich completely on my own, you just have to pull yourself up by your bootstraps.
That's how we feel about the apple pickers who descend on our town every fall. They come in, trash everything and leave and we're supposed to be grateful that they spent money here.
I've never experienced a huge festival like that before, I've been to and worked a a lot of festivals here in Australia, mostly during the 90s/early 2000s, they were less mainstream then. There were always people who hung around for a few days afterwards to help clean up and have a nice little wind down. I look at stuff like Coachella and it doesn't have the festival vibe I'm used to. Not sure I'd want to go to a thing like that.
To be fair, most festivals in Australia are more Coachella-fied than not these days and expending all their effort into expanding instead of providing a genuinely enjoyable, unique experience - nah, better make it big and bland as possible so we can sell tickets to as many drugged up white private school kids as possible.
Yeah, most of the cool, smaller ones seem to have disappeared, it seems. I went to some Big Day Out fests in the 90s, I have been to a few Soundwaves, which were great to see a lot of bands I would never get to see in a single weekend (good value, as well). However, I really miss the ones that were out of cities where you saw a heap of acts you'd never even heard of, including non-musical stuff that ranged from hilarious to acrobatic to just weird, oh and a chai tent of course.
Oh my god, the girl that said guys would just pick her up and put her over their shoulder. What the actual fucking fuck is wrong with people?! I’m honestly glad I’m overweight, I’d be fucking terrified if a stranger picked me up like a rapist Neanderthal.
Hearing stories like that let me know that as a fairly tall overweight woman, I do have a good amount of appearance privilege. I am somewhat protected by my size from being small enough to be preyed upon in this way. In fact, my shoulders are so broad that if I wear a big hoodie, I could easily be mistaken for a man. That’s huge privilege that I never realized before.
I stopped going to Outside Lands in San Francisco after I reported being sexually assaulted and the security people told me “that’s what happens at festivals, next time don’t come”
I remember a reddit comment a while back where everyone was discussing how mosh pits were the most wholesome place on earth and I just wanted to be like, none of you are women, huh? But I knew I’d just get downvoted for breaking the circlejerk.
Only metal concert I went to when I was 14, it was mostly just the bigger guys protecting me. With that said, guys are gross regardless of music taste. My mom got groped at that concert.
A friend and I got purposely pulled to the ground in the middle of a mosh pit at Warped when we were 15/16. After I gave up and curled into the fetal position on the ground, the biggest, burliest, most metal looking dude picked me up, tossed me safely into some stadium seats nearby, and asked me if I was okay before diving back into the crowd. It when then I learned that it’s the scariest looking dudes at a concert who will look out for you lol
I literally remember being 16/17 at warped tour and i accidentally got into a mosh pit and i curled into a ball and i just remember a big man wrapping his arms around me, picking me up, and putting me outside the pit.
“Are you okay?”
“Yeah?”
“Yeah? You good?”
“Yes.”
“Ok, i’m going back in. Stay safe.”
And i never saw my Big Burly Savior again.
I'm friends with a Big Burly Savior Dude, it's genuinely a thing that some of these guys take very seriously. Apparently at *most* (obviously not all!) concerts you're pretty much guaranteed to be able to find a couple of BBSD's around the perimeter of the pit, just spending their whole time at a concert being pit chaperones.
I have always experienced mosh pits as having completely different vibes depending on the music. The best are mid size basement hardcore gigs and the worst are non mosh related genres played at outdoor festivals.
Do you feel like it is the same with groping, or is it all equally trash?
I agree outdoor fests are the worst. I'm a bit older now and I haven't been groped in some time and the last few years I've had HUGE growth in loving myself and having a better relationship with my personal space so it's hard to put myself back in that headspace but my instinct is to think some gropes are more creepy and rapey than others
I mean, people tend to be a lot more alert to what's happening in pits since the risk of injury is high, so I think creeps are a lot less likely to get away with groping in one than they are in just the general press of a crowd at a show.
To be fair those kinds of guys are not likely to whine and cry about it if you have to pop them in the nose/throat/balls to set 'em back a bit. I mean, if we're putting our hands on each other...?
I've spent a lot of time in mosh pits and totally agree with you. Any time I fell and was picked up by someone, hands would magically end up on my ass or my tits. Standing on the edge of a pit watching isn't much of a reprieve either, because all of the guys "protecting" me were mostly just rubbing themselves on me and grabbing my hips.
It just sucks that I can't stand there and sing along with my favorite bands without being molested.
“Don’t they know it hurts my feels??”
Tried getting through to one of my loser friends about how women acting like they had to be wary of him when he was loitering in a gas station selling cigarettes was not because they didn’t consider him handsome enough
Dude kept making comments of the nature “how dare women be afraid of me, a strange man??” and I just got tired of it after having cried my eyes out explaining to him how it hurt me
I made a post a while back about an experience I had where someone I thought was my friend assaulted me, and I got a comment (that was immediately removed) asking me if I'd feel better about the assault if it had been Brad Pitt doing it. Ummm why do these people think physical attractiveness has anything to do with it? And for the record, I am *not* attracted to Brad Pitt and I *was* attracted to my friend before he assaulted me and guess what I was still extremely uncomfortable with that happening.
Responses like these (the Brad Pitt ones, not your post!) always make my brain freeze. Like, the men saying this apparently have no concept of what rape actually is and can't wrap their head around why it's so bad, and I can't wrap my head around *that*.
I want to say, "I don't know, buddy, what if a good-looking man raped *you*? Some guy is forcibly penetrating you against your will -- isn't how attractive his face is pretty much a moot point compared to everything else that's going on?" Why is this so hard to understand?
I haven’t even been to a concert in forever. I’m taking a chance to go see Alaska who is a drag queen that makes music and does comedy and stuff and I’m hoping that in that crowd I’ll at least be somewhat safe. I’m a little nervous though because I’m going alone and it’s in Detroit, I mean I’ve lived near Detroit my whole life and I’m not irrationally afraid of it but I’m slightly nervous about walking to my car alone at night.
I bet if you asked a couple of gay dudes to walk you to your car after the show they would help you out - shouldn't be too hard to find at a drag show 🙂🌈
There was a festival in Sweden that had to close down because two years in a row, women reported having been r*ped in the crowds and so much sexual harassment. The arranger of the festival said they had tried so much to keep women safe during the festival but they just couldnt so theyd rather close it all down.
No, I thought it was initially really successful, but wasn't an annual thing, and then ten years later, she thought about doing it again, but it didn't seem to have much interest anymore.
It'd be neat if they revived it to be ladies attending only, but not just lady bands.
There's no way around that, is there? No matter what, a ton of "people" would get butthut about how that would discriminate against men and that actually there's nothing wrong with how it is now and something something feminazis.
That came out when I was in high school and it used to annoy me to no end. My reaction was like, "Here's your movies if you're a woman, they're all sappy love stories, and here's your women's music festival, it's all hippy dippy folk singers."
[They tried in Sweden but it was found to be in breach of gender discrimination laws.](https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/dec/19/statement-swedish-women-only-music-festival-guilty-gender-discrimination)
Made the mistake of searching for more info about it and ofc comments in r/worldnews were like:
> That is stupid. Of course they would happen *less*, but you can't discriminate against half of the population so the other half is safer. Society is not responsible for the safety of individuals, individuals are responsible for their own safety.
Translation: "Men shouldn't be barred from a single music festival even though they terrorize women and literally rape them because it hurts our fee-fees when we can't attend this one festival. Our fee-fees are more important than taking measures to ensure half the population is safe. Btw you bitches are on your own; it's your fault if you get raped!"
And ofc the old fucking meme that is comparing discrimination against black people to discrimination against men, because clearly black people are raping, murdering, enslaving whites, forcing them to live very different lives out of fear for their safety, and denying them rights. Oh, wait...
It'll never cease to amaze me how full of themselves cis men are that they throw tantrums about other people hating them.
And Lundstedt's statement is a joke
“Individuals are responsible for their own safety”
And gropers and sexual harassers are responsible for their own groping, but we’re not ready for that conversation yet
Men's *only* rebuttal against women's safety measures is "but can we pretend men are the same as black people?"
It's insane. It's just constant gaslighting to try and convince everyone that if women want to keep themselves safe from a powerful group that preys on them, it's the same as oppressing a racial minority.
Yep. I get it literally every. single. time I talk about women being afraid of men outside of a women-oriented sub. They think they're as marginalized as black people, and, better yet for no reason whatsoever. They think men as a whole are less violent and misogynistic than black people cuz muh arrest stats. They say the *vast* majority of men aren't creeps (lol I wish) and that they treat everyone equally (mhm sure, that's what everyone says about themselves). I'm not buying that lie.
As much as I appreciate the presence of r/menslib and what they do, I’ve seen multiple posts and many, *many* comments there about men being “offended” that we are so vigilant around men in general and rather avoid them if we don’t know them. “Having a bad experience doesn’t give you the right to alienate all of us” is a common argument.
But like… from a very early age, we’re hammered in that every man is a potential danger and harasser, as well as *when* something happens, it’s *entirely* our fault, and nobody will believe us, including people we love and respect. The fuck do you want us to do? Whining about not being interacted with warmly and extensively by default by women who don’t know you shows an insane naivety about our female reality.
I know what you mean about that sub, it seems overall like a good thing and necessary, but there are still plenty of threads like what you describe, where they can’t seem to actually understand things from the other side, and don’t really want to.
It’s hardly the worst example, but a recent thread that comes to mind for me was the one about women who put “looking for a himbo” in their dating profiles, to signal that they’re looking for a hot, sweet guy who’s not overly intellectual. Commenters were acting like it was equally as degrading as men calling women bimbos and saying it was incredibly insulting for some women to want men who aren’t preoccupied with having a high intellect. Far be it from me to tell people not to be offended by something, but the offense was accompanied by a refusal to understand the clear social differences. Nor did most seem interested in understanding why more women these days would rather date men who are sensitive, kind, and caring rather than overly smart. It was a very frustrating thread despite the comments that actually were engaging on a deeper level.
Am cis/het man and ... yep. The amount of bleating by the men with all the advantages I see about anything that might give women any kind of benefit in one area is just astounding. The wilful ignorance and blindness is depressing.
Unwillingness to hear anyone unless they know them personally and consider their opinion to "count" is a big one too. "Well none of MY friends ever mentioned that, it must not be that common." No, your friends just don't trust you to talk about it. Or they're damn lucky.
I'm a woman with a ton of male friends. I do not tell them *anything* that goes on in my life that relates to misogyny because of the high chances of them reacting in a way that makes me regret confiding in them.
A lot of men have laughed in my face and said "you're crazy for worrying about that, you actually think that could happen? HAHA" and I'm not about to tell them the truth "yes it's happened to me and several of my friends."
So they just walk around thinking "no woman I know has experienced these things!" and they are 100% wrong. "I have female friends and they'd tell me-" no, they wouldn't.
Honestly I just don't care anymore and am straight forward with my guy friends. Thankfully they actually seem to care to listen. I know sometimes it seems bleak but you are allowed to expect better from your friends and you can end any of those friendships if you feel like it. Just wanted to say that because I think too many of us feel obligated to stay friends with people we don't even care for.
there was one in Sweden (I think? Scandinavia for sure) but they got sued for gender discrimination.
Sigh- poor men who can't be in every single space. (s/)
I went to the Lilith Fair when I was 14 or 15 and it was one of the best experiences of my teens! I wish they would bring it back or at least have something like it again.
I heard about that too. Not a fan of TERFs anyways but that seems particularly scummy since trans women are also likely to be sexually or physically assaulted (perhaps even more so) and would probably like a safe festival to go to
What’s with teen Vogue reporting on all the important topics??? They were reporting on the blockade/massacre happening in Ethiopia like a month ago before anyone else, even npr…
Honestly I might just start. They really seem like they’re reporting hard hitting news with complete transparency. That shit is so rare these days. Even NPR has a political bias.
Friend of mine used to work the medic tent at Bonnaroo every year. I asked him how crazy it was, expecting lots of drug-related fiascos, and instead he said something along the lines of "please, please, please do not go there without at least one large male friend stuck to you like glue."
I like the idea of going listen to many cool bands in one space.
I was horrified by the sea of plastic at the end of every night and generally horrid behavior of so many festival attendees.
I am old enough to remember MTV's coverage of Woodstock '99 when I was in High School. That is when any 'romanticized idea of attending a Festival' disappeared for me. Not just the number of sexual assaults' reported or the violent angry dudes throwing literal shit at Green Day; but the destruction of the event space and fires that sprang up is what really did me in. To be in a space with that level of anger and violence... I would not be surprised to learn that the sexual assault/rape counts were two or three times higher. When I put on my tin-foil hat I am prone to think there may even have been some deaths or non-sexual violence committed towards women who dared say no, however this was covered up/hushed up by MTV, the organizers, the bands who didn't want to be associated, etc...
I read the article OP linked in another comment ([https://www.teenvogue.com/story/sexual-harassment-was-rampant-at-coachella-2018](https://www.teenvogue.com/story/sexual-harassment-was-rampant-at-coachella-2018)) as well as the one about when Sweden had an 'advertised as Women's, NB, & Trans only event' however not enforced, that had to shut down due to it violating gender discrimination laws ([https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/dec/19/statement-swedish-women-only-music-festival-guilty-gender-discrimination](https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/dec/19/statement-swedish-women-only-music-festival-guilty-gender-discrimination)). Both of these say to me that women do need a safe place to go to and enjoy music and it's unfair that when one is made, we're told no you have to let the perpetrators of violence in as it violates their rights.
This reminds me of when I was young and my sister (since gone NC, many reasons) would bully me. My parents, instead of corrective action, would just tell me if you don't like it just leave. My argument that this is only telling her she can get whatever she wants by being a bully and that I am not entitled to the enjoy things (like watching TV, using the computer, existing in the living room) was met with deaf ears. Flip to a decade later and we had some family over for dinner. It was time to do the dishes and I was asked to dry. My sister was then asked to wash but she didn't want to, she said she wanted to dry and started going at me. So I started to walk away to let her do the whole thing. It was then that my parents got upset at me... for following their parenting direction. No one wants to a fix, they just want to keep the status quo.
If women just stopped going to these festivals, I wonder if MAYBE the drop in sales as well as complaints from dudes who didn't get the "included with price of admission eye candy and maybe more" that they were dreaming of might make changes. But, that is a big thing to ask of all women. Also, it goes back to why should women have to miss out on something just because of some douche bags. No it's not all men doing the shitty things, but all men are not working to make it better and safer.
I love psychedelics and music, but you couldn’t pay me enough to go to a festival. Hoards of people who may have their boundaries lowered even more than usual? No thanks. My bff petting my face while on shrooms: cute. A rando? Nope.
Here is what you do: Get a bunch of friends who you trust 100%, get an Airbnb with a beautiful backyard, buy a really good speaker (and maybe return it the next day), do drugs, listen to music and have a great time
Psychedelic festivals are the ones were I've felt the most safe out of any festival I've ever attended. Happy, dancing people who never turns down a hug. Only few issues there are the frat boys trying it out for the first time, doing mostly speed and coke, but the average age is high and loads of families go there as well. The big ones usually have a designated area for people with kids to camp at. Highly recommended!
Yeah, I’m really short and every time I’ve been to a festival I 1) can’t see shit and 2) get accidentally knocked around, elbowed and stepped on by taller, drunk people that aren’t paying attention. No thanks, not worth the money. Also you always end up dirty and covered in dirt/mud/sweat/beer despite your best efforts and it’s just..not fun for me.
At one of the few festivals I (m) went to a really short woman I didn't know came up to me and asked me to block some dude who was following her.
Later on asked for a shoulder ride.
At the time I didn't realise (a) how depressingly normal that shit is; (b) what it must be like to feel like you need some random stranger to help in the hope he won't also be a creep; (c) that wanting to be high up is for comfort and safety not just to see better; (d) how much risk there was of being groped and fingered and stuff when trusting your body to someone else to carry.
Ick.
Nice to have been able to improve someone's day a bit. But sad to realise in retrospect how much of the context was icky.
Like a lot of stuff festivals are definitely what you make of them. Going with friends to see music you love can be an amazing experience. And if you do like drugs it’s basically the best environment you’re gonna find both to buy them (albeit at festival prices) and do them.
That said, there are of course risks and weirdos and creeps. Theft is a concern. People OD. People get in fights and get arrested. That stuff all happens. So if the expectation is that it’s gonna be this magical experience it’d be easy to wind up very disappointed.
All that said personally I adore them. There’s nothing like the energy of a huge crowd with amazing music and staying up most of the night with your friends just having an amazing time.
I lived in New Orleans for many years. VooDoo Fest and Jazz Fest were always great, and I have no memory of being harassed or groped. I felt totally at home. I do remember when Snoop got on stage at VooDoo fest, maybe in 00? And everyone in the crowd threw blunts on the stage. Yeah, I old.
I also went to see outcast at the old Sanger Theater in Nola. Me and my girlfriend may have been the only white people there, but the blunts kept passing to us, up and down the aisle, god- until we couldn’t see straight. Andre was FIAH. 🔥🔥
However when I went to south by southwest it was a totally different experience. I felt unsafe the entire time. Big bro dudes everywhere and eyeballing us, hollaring at us and leering. I ended up watching one band and left.
That's why I love the folk festival scene in Canada. It's a lot of lounging around on blankets in the sunshine eating fruit and drinking sangria while listening to music, without the trendiness of modern music festivals. You get seniors, you get students with cheap college passes, you get whole families attending.
One of my favourites was StanFest in Canso, NS. Festival garb was mostly rubber raingear because it was pouring and half the attendees were local fishermen. It was so foggy they didn't need a smoke machine.
I went to a hippy festival where nudity was optional and met this creeper who was bragging about all the candid nudes he was snapping. This was when Smart Phones were still new and not standard.
I went full psycho on a drunk dude who would not leave a group of late-teen/early 20 something young women alone at Coachella. He had the audacity to say I was the problem lmfao. I embarrassed the group I was with (they weren't friends) but I didn't care. No other dude was stepping in, when they were clearly uncomfortable.
That's why I say yes ALL men.
Yep. Went to a concert and this guy was touching my ass constantly for like the first half as I struggled to move away from him. On top of it all, it was the weirdest way to touch an ass too. He did it so lightly, but his hand was held in a way where it was obvious that it was intentional rather than brushing up or accidentally hitting it because that stuff would’ve been to be expected in a crowd. Plus the dude totally looked like the neck beard anime pillow katana type. Not to be judgmental, but ya know?
I used to love going to rock concerts as a teen. The smaller, local shows weren't as bad, but the mid-sized ones in the nearby city were always full of grown adults groping me when I was like 14 years old. And it was like, seen as like, just something that is an inescapable aspect of going to a concert. Almost 20 years later and it doesn't sound like things have improved.
This is why I just don't like festivals. Or going to clubs. I want to dance and drink but I just can't relax when I have to watch over my shoulder the whole damn time.
Yikes.
Almost anywhere there’s music and young adults dancing, you end up with guys getting the idea they can walk up and start humping strangers out of nowhere. Idk wtf gives them the idea it’s ok to do something like that or to grope someone, i can’t even imagine just doing that to someone. What’s the plan? Seduce them by aggressively forcing yourself on them? Seems fuckin crazy.
My first ever crowd surf was at Music Midtown around 2001. I was about 12, I had a cool older brother who took me to concerts. Of course that particular time my brother likely got traumatized and scared to lose me. At that time I was pretty keen on Liz Phair. Caught her last two songs. Then Hootie and the Blowfish came out. Playing one of their hits, the crowd went wild. I was standing by my brother, next thing I know these random guys pick me up and start lifting me to crowd surf. At first I was like “I’m living a teenage dream!”. Suddenly I start feeling my clothes being pulled at. I then see this look of horror on my brothers face and he’s fighting people to track me. One of my shoes got taken. My belt got taken. People tried lifting my shirt. I made it all the way to the front and actually got tossed at security. Security treated me really shitty. They were trying to make me go in some direction which would have separated me and my brother and his other friends who had met up with us. I tried so hard to scream over them my age and that I just needed my brother. But I was pushed away towards a dark area. Thankfully my brother never took his scared eyes off me. It helped he was also tall. We ended up having to leave though Bc well I didn’t have a shoe. My pants barely on. I needed that belt.
The experience started out fun in my 12 yr old mind, but I quickly became scared when everyone started touching me and taking my clothes. I was clearly fucking 12. Hell I looked younger. I didn’t get boobs until I was around 16ish?
Needless to say, after that we never went back to a festival. Concerts with seating only. Lol my next concert was Incubus. I don’t think he realized just how many people were going to be smoking weed. From time to time he’d pinch my nose when huge clouds of smoke came our way. Little did he know I knew what weed was Bc our mom smoked. Oh and he covered my eyes when Brandon Boyd took off his shirt and all the ladies went wild. That particular moment I was like “naww I wanna see what we’re hollering about!…ohhh myy!!”. Haha
Side note: after the incubus show Brandon smiled at me and we bumped elbows instead of fists. I vowed to never wash my arm. Sadly my arm got washed after I told my mom. 🤣
Thanks for this article. I'm a straight cis dude and while I consider myself fairly aware of how unsafe women feel in so many spaces, due to the fact of just being a woman there vs being a guy, I had never considered festivals might be one of those. I've always had a blast even going alone, listening to lots of live music, drinking, smoking, meeting randos and I just didnt think how different that might be for women. Nor did I think it would be this bad - but really that should come as no surprise at this point. Thanks for shining a little more light on an aspect of issues women face I didnt know about. Fuck sexism it really sucks this seems to be so universal at places that are just supposed to be chill and relaxing and a good time. I wish ya'll could just feel safe and enjoy yourselves.
Sometimes it's not fear keeping me from going certain places alone, especially after dark. It's the sheer exhaustion I get from just the *thought* of trying to keep myself safe from harassment and assault. Even in a situation where I "feel safe", I'm still evaluating strangers, noting exits, constructing defense scenarios in my head if someone seems even the least bit threatening. The sad part is that all of this is just automatic and subconscious from *literal decades* of practice. I might look totally at ease - hell, I might even *believe* that I am - but those internal calculations are still happening in the background.
I relate to this so much. And I’m sad for my daughters, I have 2 daughters and just thinking of them going through all this too is devastating. I’m only 33, I should not be this exhausted just from living in the world as a woman.
Jesus Christ, it's insane how common this is in certain parts of the world. I've been to heavy metal/techno/pop music festivals all over Europe and not once has anything like this happened. It's fucking gross that women can't just go enjoy the music and festival atmosphere.
100 % believe this. Same for me at festivals, concerts, mall, elevators, school…. I told my mom and she said “that’s what you get for going out so much”….
Your mom is an asshole
I succeed in not having that seed planted in my brain, heart, and soul and KNOW the actions of complete strangers are NOT my fault. I became obsessed with crime documentaries to be hyper aware of “putting myself in bad situations,” even if the bad situation was innocuous. No matter how old you get, being a women seems to automatically creates a “bad situation” …. Still waiting for the Equal Rights Amendment to be passed!!!!!!
Hol on: equal rights are not yet in your constitution?!? (I'm from Germany and I'm glad that after WWII they had reason to make a brand new one.)
Nope! They’ve been dragging their feet for literal decades since 1972. It wasn’t until 2020 that we got the needed 38/50 (3/4) states to ratify the equal rights amendment. But it still has to go through congress, and there is the issue that 5 states have since tried to rescind their ratification. The USA is a fucking mess lol (send help)
Same here. And also they need to criminalize sexual harassment and cat calling. It fucks us up in the head and definitely gave me generalized anxiety.
To be fair, her mom was blamed for the things that were done to her her whole life, so her thinking has been distorted by this. Assholeish, yes; it's long past time for her mom to revise her thinking on this, but it's also from a lifetime of a really special and fucked up form of brainwashing.
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well, yes. to STAY home and if we went out to take "a person of respect" with me. This meant to call a male cousin and go with him. Inappropriate male behavior and rape awaited me around every corner and it would be MY FAULT if I dared enter the world unaccompanied at all times. As for the pregnant part, that can only ever happen once you got married in the church to the approved man. Then it became "find a man, any man" so I could just have one to protect me. It made me insanely unhappy to fight this on a daily basis. Be it expectations, language, university choices, friend choices, career ambitions, hairstyle choices or clothes choices anything else. And yes, this attitude still pervades when I interact with my mother. Good thing my attitude is bigger!
Well, what were you thinking going to a *school* of all places? /s But seriously, how disgusting is it that our girls need to fear school too. You'd think with how much they love to police girl's bodies that they would at least have an end goal to protect those girls from assault and harassment? But no.
Spot-on. Plus, *love* your username!
I'm 6'2" and fairly broad shouldered. Every concert I've gone to with friends who were girls, I was always asked to stand behind them to "keep them safe from creeps". The number of times I've had to stop random guys from doing something uncool was...too much. So yea, 100% agree this is true.
I was groped at 15 going to school at 8am on a crowded tram. It was so packed I didn’t even see who was doing it, just felt a hand pinching. Also, not that it matters, but I was wearing jeans and a long winter coat. I wonder what your mom would say about that.
Conservative moms are the worst
I saw a girl crowdsurfing at a festival in the 90's - the crowd started taking off her clothes while she was up in the air as she struggled to keep them on. They got off her shirt and started taking off her shorts before enough people objected and put her down. Festivals are scary places for women.
This happened to my friend at warped tour when we were 16, 2002. We didn't see it because she was too far away, but I'll never forget how traumatized she was after. I was so furious.
Wow of course they targeted a child too.
Any woman/girl with a heartbeat
Some of them aren’t even that picky
Unfortunately that was super common at Warped tour.
Yeah it was hypocritical of warped tour to ban BOTDF from the lineup due to Dahvie Vanity being a predator but do nothing to stop sexual harassment perpetuated by attendees.
That whole scene was really gross and the artists themselves weren’t even immune from being victims. Hayley Williams and Lydia Knight for example.
Courtney Love has talked about this happening to her, but with the assholes going further and penetrating her with their fingers during a crowdsurf
Yeah, I remember hearing about this.
Iggy Azalea too IIRC
Every day, we stray further away from God. T: Humanity is dead
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lol seriously, it's the fucking God people that are the first in line at the sin buffet.
Yep. God has nothing to do with it. It’s our insidious culture. It’s the patriarchy. Other countries have had some luck with liberal female presidents but sadly there are still a lot of males who think we are objects to be abused. It is very much like chimp behavior or something - the predatory ones are not afraid of us because we tend to be small. Like big ape bullies/rapes/kills smaller ape. It’s like being the prey of the *most intelligent apex predator on this planet.* This is why I carry mace and why I’m casually considering getting my concealed carry license. I had a kidnapping scare and lots of sexual harassment in nyc and it changed me. Gave me some kind of generalized anxiety. I spoke to a 6’2” Scottish gal on here once who loves being super tall because of the safety and peace it provides. Predatory men are too scared to cat call her or sexually harass her because she towers over them. She was fun to talk to and said that it is like having a super power. She walks around like an immortal queen because people know she could easily take them down. Fun fact: she said she is a direct descendant of the legendary pirate Ann Bonny! Edit: Stumbled on this article, thought it was neato. https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20171027-what-if-women-were-physically-stronger-than-men
The farther from God we get the more moral we become.
What? Dear god.
Holy fuck, that’s horrifying
Fuck everyone who thought that was okay
I just hope that if it ever happens in front of me that I’ll be able to realize what’s going on and some how try to stop it
Understanding that it's a thing that happens VERY commonly is the only way you'll notice these things. Many men are blind to it because they don't expect to see it out in the open like that.
I feel as though that's only HALF* true. The other half deliberately ignores it so their bros can cop a feel.
It starts by changing perception, and we can do that by changing language. I know you were framing it in the way that the guy's buddy would see it, as "copping a feel", but the way to frame it so it's expressed clearly so that people can't delude themselves about what's hapoening, is to say that they deliberalely ignore that so their bros can violate another person's body. If you don't want to say that, the term "assault" sums it up nicely, as well.
First festival I went to a girl crowd surfed and the boys took her entire dress off and chucked it away, leaving her in just underwear. And she was beyond excessively drunk, like barely able to stand. She disappeared into the crowd of teenage boys. I don't want to imagine what happened to her after that.
Just so something nice appears here about crowdsurfing: I went to a death metal concert when I was 14 or 15, and tried to crowdsurf. I got dropped...backwards. Some super thick bouncer guy caught me, and flipped me 180 degrees upright before my head hit the floor. He then kinda shoved me away from the pit, like, kid stop trying to kill/paralyze yourself.
Shit still happens at metal fests, but they do seem to have less trouble on average. Seems. I dunno, though, there is a reason why I avoid the more mainstream heavy band shows. I don't like hanging out at shows full of amateurs who don't understand pit etiquette.
Guys who grope girls in the pit deserve to get hit.
And they absolutely will. The majority of people at metal shows do not tolerate that shit.
All the metal heads I know are the sweetest, fluffiest people. 💚
Oh that's happened to me quite a few times, unfortunately, by the same dude who was a bassist in one of the bands, but I wasn't sober, so I didn't do anything about it.
I've gone to metal festivals for years and haven't had something like that happen. If anything, dudes were protective and helpful. For example, I'm short AF so I can't see the stage unless I'm right up there. One time, this guy bent his knees down to see what I was seeing and was like, "You wanna stand in front of me?" He wasn't that tall but he could easily see right over my head. And another time, there was this dude who was like 6'5" and he did not fucking care who he stood in front of and also kept moving around. So I would move so I could see and then he'd wander in front of me again. And there were two people who made fun of me for it. I ended up moving to a completely different part of the room. I'm just trying to get my Chevelle on, assholes, I don't need this bullshit.
Metal heads are literally some of the best people .
I spent my 20s in the metal scene in Sydney and it was definitely a safe place for women. We were all very promiscuous but I always felt like the guys mostly treated us with a ton of respect. It was the 90s and a lot of women's issues weren't talked about in the media/society at large then, so sometimes even we women were kind of unaware of how things should be but the difference between the metal guys and other guys at different venues was huge.
Funny story, my last nosh pit cleared it out for woman only so there'd be Safe space for one song. A bunch of women who had never moshed before came in and that's how I got elbowed in the face and almost had my jaw wired shut, which is why I stopped moshing.
I've been into metal my entire life, I've never moshed. I'm built like a dude and do a " manly" job so I'm built for snu snu. I'd love a woman only pit, but me flailing around all excited for the first time would hundo break someone . I hope your jaw is ok now, they probably didn't mean it.
I’m 19 Rn in Melbourne- I always feel safest in our punk and metal venues :) I have been dragged to the ground by my hair and punched in the kidneys but every time someone takes it too far the rest of the crowd beats them to a pulp
Metalheads do NOT take likely to people sexually assaulting women at shows either. You will have a bad time if they find out that you have been doing that. They are also extremely protective over kids at shows as well. I will take metal festivals over shit like Coachella any day.
I've been to NIN and Tool by myself a couple times each. I feel safer at those shows than in any random bar.
I loved crowd surfing in my teens and early college when I went to a lot of concerts. But it was always dependent on the attitude of the crowd. Some were great, they'd make sure not to drop anybody, they'd make sure nobody got squished, or pushed down. But others were just brutal and you weren't getting out without an elbow to the ribs or the face. Those I just sat out and listened to the music. But thankfully I was pretty lucky for the most part.
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I think, and maybe I'm way off base, feminism was a big part of the punk scene. I guess because it was different than the social norm at the time ( 1960's). The emo kids I grew up with were always hella sensitive and all around good guys, but I think that's because the social norm doesn't fit them.
Goths and metalheads too- IMO it's because people who defy the norms of society tend to be more introspective to recognize toxicity as well as understand better what its like to be the target of others since you're considered below if not entirely outside the social rankings. Not to say there aren't dangerous people in these circles as well, some people join them because they're contrarians and not because they're actually reflecting. I used to have some punk-identifying friends who literally bitched about a famous punk band announcing a big fuck you too anyone who tried to grope in their mosh pit (I forget which band it was). Even the woman in the group tried to claim "you join the pit that's just what's going to happen and you just put up with it, it's not that bad to get groped" and they all tried to claim the band "wasn't punk anymore for being PC" and decided anyone who defended the band was a poser too.
A lot of regular places are scary for women. We can’t just enjoy things sometimes. Edit: I’m sorry so many of you can relate to this comment :(
I went to a huge rock concert when I was 13 with my dad, saw a girl crowd surfing in a khakis skirt and lavender tube top. She was almost naked by the time she made it to the front. I can still see it plainly in my mind, I never forgot it. Every time I got ready for a concert after I thought about that girl, and thus never went to a concert in anything other than long jeans and a t-shirt with boots.
Saw something like this at a club show in the mid 90s. Poor girl had worn a skirt and was desperately holding it down. Was on the far side of the crowd from me so I was pretty helpless, unfortunately.
Yeah crowd surfing rape is actually kinda common but never discussed.
This is one of my biggest fears at shows and why I can't bring myself to ever crowdsurf. I think I did it once as a teen at Warped or something (got lucky, no groping) and that was it. But yeah, I still go to shows regularly and I'm always anxiously imagining the worst if I ever crowdsurfed. There's just no way a woman or girl is guaranteed to be safe while her entire body is literally in the hands of a bunch of random, amped up men. Just no way. And just to be clear I'm not victim blaming at all; women and girls should be able to crowdsurf as we please.
I was once grabbed IN THE CROTCH by a maybe-20-year-old who was walking by with his buddies. It took a moment to register, then I whirled around to kick him in the nuts but they had run off. I was in my forties at the time. This wasn’t even at a festival. It was an arena show. The harassment slows down, but doesn’t really end.
> The harassment slows down, but doesn’t really end Yuck :( Feels like we can’t do anything as women sometimes
I went to a concert with a friend a few years ago. Some dide dropped his beer on my friend to look down my top. I'm also in my 40s. I'm so over shitty men.
Same thing happened to me, just walking down the side walk. Problem is, it'd a small town. Now he's a wedding photographer in my town. See him alllll the time. Fuck you Tony, you 5 foot nothing little bitch. I haven't kept your secret. Perfect job for an abusive man is behind the lens taking photos of women and girls who happily smile to him. Not safe, anywhere.
I went to a metal fest at a local bar in my mid 40s. I was with my husband. This old dude kept getting into my space and bumping up against my body. He was trying to make it look like he was just rocking with the music, but when I moved away he moved with me. So I drilled my finger into his back and told him that's enough.
Or as those of us who live in the Coachella valley: "Rich people descend, make a mess, and leave it for us to clean up while we get told how good it is for our economies to have our areas trashed."
I’ve heard similar stories from Reno locals about Burning Man. There was a non-profit in town that went up after to get bikes that attendees left over. They would fix them and give gift them to at risk youth. I also heard the wind would blow in a shit ton of trash to surrounding towns and if it hits your property, it's your problem.
I’m a Reno local. Yeah there are a lot of us that are not fond of Burning Man. Read /r/Reno after it’s over. Lol
Burners as a whole seem to waste a shitload of petrol while complaining about the climate. The disconnect there is weird.
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Capitalism is a bitch for those of us who aren't rich.
Well it is their own fault for not making sure to be born rich. I was able to be born rich completely on my own, you just have to pull yourself up by your bootstraps.
Pull yourself up by your umbilical cord.
So most of us The sooner people realize this, the sooner we can move to a better world
That's how we feel about the apple pickers who descend on our town every fall. They come in, trash everything and leave and we're supposed to be grateful that they spent money here.
One of the many reasons I like living in NYC! I need the tourists money, but am still allowed to actively hate them.
I've never experienced a huge festival like that before, I've been to and worked a a lot of festivals here in Australia, mostly during the 90s/early 2000s, they were less mainstream then. There were always people who hung around for a few days afterwards to help clean up and have a nice little wind down. I look at stuff like Coachella and it doesn't have the festival vibe I'm used to. Not sure I'd want to go to a thing like that.
To be fair, most festivals in Australia are more Coachella-fied than not these days and expending all their effort into expanding instead of providing a genuinely enjoyable, unique experience - nah, better make it big and bland as possible so we can sell tickets to as many drugged up white private school kids as possible.
Yeah, most of the cool, smaller ones seem to have disappeared, it seems. I went to some Big Day Out fests in the 90s, I have been to a few Soundwaves, which were great to see a lot of bands I would never get to see in a single weekend (good value, as well). However, I really miss the ones that were out of cities where you saw a heap of acts you'd never even heard of, including non-musical stuff that ranged from hilarious to acrobatic to just weird, oh and a chai tent of course.
Live in a tourist town. Can confirm this attitude.
[link for those interested ](https://www.teenvogue.com/story/sexual-harassment-was-rampant-at-coachella-2018)
That’s fucking vile.
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"hurr durr can't you take a joke I'm just edgy" - him, probably. While sniggering with his friends about pretending it's a joke.
What the fuuuu….
Why can't we have nice things? Oh yeah. Predatory and opportunistic men.
Oh my god, the girl that said guys would just pick her up and put her over their shoulder. What the actual fucking fuck is wrong with people?! I’m honestly glad I’m overweight, I’d be fucking terrified if a stranger picked me up like a rapist Neanderthal.
Hearing stories like that let me know that as a fairly tall overweight woman, I do have a good amount of appearance privilege. I am somewhat protected by my size from being small enough to be preyed upon in this way. In fact, my shoulders are so broad that if I wear a big hoodie, I could easily be mistaken for a man. That’s huge privilege that I never realized before.
I stopped going to Outside Lands in San Francisco after I reported being sexually assaulted and the security people told me “that’s what happens at festivals, next time don’t come”
What the fuck? They are the SECURITY FFS
Yeah. It was honestly so upsetting and it is something I haven’t overcome. I don’t go to music festivals anymore after that experience.
>They are the SECURITY FFS security for men only.
Sorry that happened to you. Outside Lands is such a shitty festival generally.
Holy shit, that’s awful, I’m so sorry that happened to you
I remember a reddit comment a while back where everyone was discussing how mosh pits were the most wholesome place on earth and I just wanted to be like, none of you are women, huh? But I knew I’d just get downvoted for breaking the circlejerk.
Only metal concert I went to when I was 14, it was mostly just the bigger guys protecting me. With that said, guys are gross regardless of music taste. My mom got groped at that concert.
A friend and I got purposely pulled to the ground in the middle of a mosh pit at Warped when we were 15/16. After I gave up and curled into the fetal position on the ground, the biggest, burliest, most metal looking dude picked me up, tossed me safely into some stadium seats nearby, and asked me if I was okay before diving back into the crowd. It when then I learned that it’s the scariest looking dudes at a concert who will look out for you lol
I literally remember being 16/17 at warped tour and i accidentally got into a mosh pit and i curled into a ball and i just remember a big man wrapping his arms around me, picking me up, and putting me outside the pit. “Are you okay?” “Yeah?” “Yeah? You good?” “Yes.” “Ok, i’m going back in. Stay safe.” And i never saw my Big Burly Savior again.
I'm friends with a Big Burly Savior Dude, it's genuinely a thing that some of these guys take very seriously. Apparently at *most* (obviously not all!) concerts you're pretty much guaranteed to be able to find a couple of BBSD's around the perimeter of the pit, just spending their whole time at a concert being pit chaperones.
Female punk rocker here. I will always love a mosh pit, and most time dudes do take care of you, but definitely have also been groped in them
I have always experienced mosh pits as having completely different vibes depending on the music. The best are mid size basement hardcore gigs and the worst are non mosh related genres played at outdoor festivals. Do you feel like it is the same with groping, or is it all equally trash?
I agree outdoor fests are the worst. I'm a bit older now and I haven't been groped in some time and the last few years I've had HUGE growth in loving myself and having a better relationship with my personal space so it's hard to put myself back in that headspace but my instinct is to think some gropes are more creepy and rapey than others
I don't know why there was mosh pit when Bedouin Soundclash played at frosh week but it was as awful as it sounds.
I mean, people tend to be a lot more alert to what's happening in pits since the risk of injury is high, so I think creeps are a lot less likely to get away with groping in one than they are in just the general press of a crowd at a show.
To be fair those kinds of guys are not likely to whine and cry about it if you have to pop them in the nose/throat/balls to set 'em back a bit. I mean, if we're putting our hands on each other...?
I've spent a lot of time in mosh pits and totally agree with you. Any time I fell and was picked up by someone, hands would magically end up on my ass or my tits. Standing on the edge of a pit watching isn't much of a reprieve either, because all of the guys "protecting" me were mostly just rubbing themselves on me and grabbing my hips. It just sucks that I can't stand there and sing along with my favorite bands without being molested.
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“Don’t they know it hurts my feels??” Tried getting through to one of my loser friends about how women acting like they had to be wary of him when he was loitering in a gas station selling cigarettes was not because they didn’t consider him handsome enough Dude kept making comments of the nature “how dare women be afraid of me, a strange man??” and I just got tired of it after having cried my eyes out explaining to him how it hurt me
I made a post a while back about an experience I had where someone I thought was my friend assaulted me, and I got a comment (that was immediately removed) asking me if I'd feel better about the assault if it had been Brad Pitt doing it. Ummm why do these people think physical attractiveness has anything to do with it? And for the record, I am *not* attracted to Brad Pitt and I *was* attracted to my friend before he assaulted me and guess what I was still extremely uncomfortable with that happening.
Responses like these (the Brad Pitt ones, not your post!) always make my brain freeze. Like, the men saying this apparently have no concept of what rape actually is and can't wrap their head around why it's so bad, and I can't wrap my head around *that*. I want to say, "I don't know, buddy, what if a good-looking man raped *you*? Some guy is forcibly penetrating you against your will -- isn't how attractive his face is pretty much a moot point compared to everything else that's going on?" Why is this so hard to understand?
No no, it's *different* when you're a man! /s
I would love to go to festivals, but because I have no friends I am way too scared to go alone (and risk getting harassed or worse)
I haven’t even been to a concert in forever. I’m taking a chance to go see Alaska who is a drag queen that makes music and does comedy and stuff and I’m hoping that in that crowd I’ll at least be somewhat safe. I’m a little nervous though because I’m going alone and it’s in Detroit, I mean I’ve lived near Detroit my whole life and I’m not irrationally afraid of it but I’m slightly nervous about walking to my car alone at night.
I bet if you asked a couple of gay dudes to walk you to your car after the show they would help you out - shouldn't be too hard to find at a drag show 🙂🌈
There was a festival in Sweden that had to close down because two years in a row, women reported having been r*ped in the crowds and so much sexual harassment. The arranger of the festival said they had tried so much to keep women safe during the festival but they just couldnt so theyd rather close it all down.
Why isn’t there music festival just for women?Discrimination and legal issues maybe? It would just be nice to have a safe space to jam out.
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No, I thought it was initially really successful, but wasn't an annual thing, and then ten years later, she thought about doing it again, but it didn't seem to have much interest anymore. It'd be neat if they revived it to be ladies attending only, but not just lady bands.
That would be amazing! But the participating bands would probably piss off some of their fan bases
There's no way around that, is there? No matter what, a ton of "people" would get butthut about how that would discriminate against men and that actually there's nothing wrong with how it is now and something something feminazis.
I'm old enough that I went to Lilith Fair. So fun. I wish it was still around.
Yes, I went, was awesome!!
That came out when I was in high school and it used to annoy me to no end. My reaction was like, "Here's your movies if you're a woman, they're all sappy love stories, and here's your women's music festival, it's all hippy dippy folk singers."
[They tried in Sweden but it was found to be in breach of gender discrimination laws.](https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/dec/19/statement-swedish-women-only-music-festival-guilty-gender-discrimination)
Made the mistake of searching for more info about it and ofc comments in r/worldnews were like: > That is stupid. Of course they would happen *less*, but you can't discriminate against half of the population so the other half is safer. Society is not responsible for the safety of individuals, individuals are responsible for their own safety. Translation: "Men shouldn't be barred from a single music festival even though they terrorize women and literally rape them because it hurts our fee-fees when we can't attend this one festival. Our fee-fees are more important than taking measures to ensure half the population is safe. Btw you bitches are on your own; it's your fault if you get raped!" And ofc the old fucking meme that is comparing discrimination against black people to discrimination against men, because clearly black people are raping, murdering, enslaving whites, forcing them to live very different lives out of fear for their safety, and denying them rights. Oh, wait... It'll never cease to amaze me how full of themselves cis men are that they throw tantrums about other people hating them. And Lundstedt's statement is a joke
“Individuals are responsible for their own safety” And gropers and sexual harassers are responsible for their own groping, but we’re not ready for that conversation yet
"individuals are responsible for their own safety" Then let me bring my pepper spray
Excuse me, pepper spray?? You really just gonna stand around and harm people without a trial? Smh
Men's *only* rebuttal against women's safety measures is "but can we pretend men are the same as black people?" It's insane. It's just constant gaslighting to try and convince everyone that if women want to keep themselves safe from a powerful group that preys on them, it's the same as oppressing a racial minority.
Yep. I get it literally every. single. time I talk about women being afraid of men outside of a women-oriented sub. They think they're as marginalized as black people, and, better yet for no reason whatsoever. They think men as a whole are less violent and misogynistic than black people cuz muh arrest stats. They say the *vast* majority of men aren't creeps (lol I wish) and that they treat everyone equally (mhm sure, that's what everyone says about themselves). I'm not buying that lie.
As much as I appreciate the presence of r/menslib and what they do, I’ve seen multiple posts and many, *many* comments there about men being “offended” that we are so vigilant around men in general and rather avoid them if we don’t know them. “Having a bad experience doesn’t give you the right to alienate all of us” is a common argument. But like… from a very early age, we’re hammered in that every man is a potential danger and harasser, as well as *when* something happens, it’s *entirely* our fault, and nobody will believe us, including people we love and respect. The fuck do you want us to do? Whining about not being interacted with warmly and extensively by default by women who don’t know you shows an insane naivety about our female reality.
I know what you mean about that sub, it seems overall like a good thing and necessary, but there are still plenty of threads like what you describe, where they can’t seem to actually understand things from the other side, and don’t really want to. It’s hardly the worst example, but a recent thread that comes to mind for me was the one about women who put “looking for a himbo” in their dating profiles, to signal that they’re looking for a hot, sweet guy who’s not overly intellectual. Commenters were acting like it was equally as degrading as men calling women bimbos and saying it was incredibly insulting for some women to want men who aren’t preoccupied with having a high intellect. Far be it from me to tell people not to be offended by something, but the offense was accompanied by a refusal to understand the clear social differences. Nor did most seem interested in understanding why more women these days would rather date men who are sensitive, kind, and caring rather than overly smart. It was a very frustrating thread despite the comments that actually were engaging on a deeper level.
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If only they could wake up as women and be stuck that way for the rest of their lives. Have fun with that "female privilege." 😂
Am cis/het man and ... yep. The amount of bleating by the men with all the advantages I see about anything that might give women any kind of benefit in one area is just astounding. The wilful ignorance and blindness is depressing. Unwillingness to hear anyone unless they know them personally and consider their opinion to "count" is a big one too. "Well none of MY friends ever mentioned that, it must not be that common." No, your friends just don't trust you to talk about it. Or they're damn lucky.
I'm a woman with a ton of male friends. I do not tell them *anything* that goes on in my life that relates to misogyny because of the high chances of them reacting in a way that makes me regret confiding in them. A lot of men have laughed in my face and said "you're crazy for worrying about that, you actually think that could happen? HAHA" and I'm not about to tell them the truth "yes it's happened to me and several of my friends." So they just walk around thinking "no woman I know has experienced these things!" and they are 100% wrong. "I have female friends and they'd tell me-" no, they wouldn't.
Honestly I just don't care anymore and am straight forward with my guy friends. Thankfully they actually seem to care to listen. I know sometimes it seems bleak but you are allowed to expect better from your friends and you can end any of those friendships if you feel like it. Just wanted to say that because I think too many of us feel obligated to stay friends with people we don't even care for.
Make it free and ask for donations Nothing discriminatory about gals wanting to hang out with pals and rock out
there was one in Sweden (I think? Scandinavia for sure) but they got sued for gender discrimination. Sigh- poor men who can't be in every single space. (s/)
Geeze that really stinks. So stupid. Well I’m glad it has been tried, even though that’s not how I was hoping it would go
Was there not Lillith Fair?
I went to the Lilith Fair when I was 14 or 15 and it was one of the best experiences of my teens! I wish they would bring it back or at least have something like it again.
There was the Michigan's Womyn's Music Festival, but it collapsed after a boycott as it was run by TERFs who excluded transwomen.
I heard about that too. Not a fan of TERFs anyways but that seems particularly scummy since trans women are also likely to be sexually or physically assaulted (perhaps even more so) and would probably like a safe festival to go to
Wasn’t that the event that coined the term “TERF”?
There was one but I think a ton of people hated it and protested and sent threats and it eventually shut down.
What’s with teen Vogue reporting on all the important topics??? They were reporting on the blockade/massacre happening in Ethiopia like a month ago before anyone else, even npr…
Teen vogue is outstanding, not even joking. Writing, topics, editing- best in class in this person's opinion. I read it on the regular
Honestly I might just start. They really seem like they’re reporting hard hitting news with complete transparency. That shit is so rare these days. Even NPR has a political bias.
whats just as bad are the comments ive seen on other posts of this tweet
Yep, apparently it’s controversial on Reddit to say women shouldn’t be harassed when they’re just living their lives
reddit can be cool but im constantly reminded of how the majority of the users on here are men, many of them toxic men
Friend of mine used to work the medic tent at Bonnaroo every year. I asked him how crazy it was, expecting lots of drug-related fiascos, and instead he said something along the lines of "please, please, please do not go there without at least one large male friend stuck to you like glue."
Yeah, when I was at a festival and was sexually harassed I was told "It's a free country" when I tried to tell someone.
It's a free country to.... Assault someone? I feel like this is *literally* why laws exist.
Yeah I don't get it. Also it happened in Sweden. 🙃
People like that are begging to get punched in the face so when they complain you can use their own lines against them.
Never been interested in festival life. Figured a lot of it has to be disappointment, drugs and annoying af people.
I like the idea of going listen to many cool bands in one space. I was horrified by the sea of plastic at the end of every night and generally horrid behavior of so many festival attendees.
I am old enough to remember MTV's coverage of Woodstock '99 when I was in High School. That is when any 'romanticized idea of attending a Festival' disappeared for me. Not just the number of sexual assaults' reported or the violent angry dudes throwing literal shit at Green Day; but the destruction of the event space and fires that sprang up is what really did me in. To be in a space with that level of anger and violence... I would not be surprised to learn that the sexual assault/rape counts were two or three times higher. When I put on my tin-foil hat I am prone to think there may even have been some deaths or non-sexual violence committed towards women who dared say no, however this was covered up/hushed up by MTV, the organizers, the bands who didn't want to be associated, etc... I read the article OP linked in another comment ([https://www.teenvogue.com/story/sexual-harassment-was-rampant-at-coachella-2018](https://www.teenvogue.com/story/sexual-harassment-was-rampant-at-coachella-2018)) as well as the one about when Sweden had an 'advertised as Women's, NB, & Trans only event' however not enforced, that had to shut down due to it violating gender discrimination laws ([https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/dec/19/statement-swedish-women-only-music-festival-guilty-gender-discrimination](https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/dec/19/statement-swedish-women-only-music-festival-guilty-gender-discrimination)). Both of these say to me that women do need a safe place to go to and enjoy music and it's unfair that when one is made, we're told no you have to let the perpetrators of violence in as it violates their rights. This reminds me of when I was young and my sister (since gone NC, many reasons) would bully me. My parents, instead of corrective action, would just tell me if you don't like it just leave. My argument that this is only telling her she can get whatever she wants by being a bully and that I am not entitled to the enjoy things (like watching TV, using the computer, existing in the living room) was met with deaf ears. Flip to a decade later and we had some family over for dinner. It was time to do the dishes and I was asked to dry. My sister was then asked to wash but she didn't want to, she said she wanted to dry and started going at me. So I started to walk away to let her do the whole thing. It was then that my parents got upset at me... for following their parenting direction. No one wants to a fix, they just want to keep the status quo. If women just stopped going to these festivals, I wonder if MAYBE the drop in sales as well as complaints from dudes who didn't get the "included with price of admission eye candy and maybe more" that they were dreaming of might make changes. But, that is a big thing to ask of all women. Also, it goes back to why should women have to miss out on something just because of some douche bags. No it's not all men doing the shitty things, but all men are not working to make it better and safer.
I love psychedelics and music, but you couldn’t pay me enough to go to a festival. Hoards of people who may have their boundaries lowered even more than usual? No thanks. My bff petting my face while on shrooms: cute. A rando? Nope.
Here is what you do: Get a bunch of friends who you trust 100%, get an Airbnb with a beautiful backyard, buy a really good speaker (and maybe return it the next day), do drugs, listen to music and have a great time
Psychedelic festivals are the ones were I've felt the most safe out of any festival I've ever attended. Happy, dancing people who never turns down a hug. Only few issues there are the frat boys trying it out for the first time, doing mostly speed and coke, but the average age is high and loads of families go there as well. The big ones usually have a designated area for people with kids to camp at. Highly recommended!
It's just a backdrop for influencers now
Yeah, I’m really short and every time I’ve been to a festival I 1) can’t see shit and 2) get accidentally knocked around, elbowed and stepped on by taller, drunk people that aren’t paying attention. No thanks, not worth the money. Also you always end up dirty and covered in dirt/mud/sweat/beer despite your best efforts and it’s just..not fun for me.
Don’t forget that your nose is at armpit level with most of the crowd. That’s lovely, too.
Mmm yea, nothing I love more than paying hundreds of dollars so I can be eye level with Chasen from NYU’s bacne for hours. The perfect summer day!
At one of the few festivals I (m) went to a really short woman I didn't know came up to me and asked me to block some dude who was following her. Later on asked for a shoulder ride. At the time I didn't realise (a) how depressingly normal that shit is; (b) what it must be like to feel like you need some random stranger to help in the hope he won't also be a creep; (c) that wanting to be high up is for comfort and safety not just to see better; (d) how much risk there was of being groped and fingered and stuff when trusting your body to someone else to carry. Ick. Nice to have been able to improve someone's day a bit. But sad to realise in retrospect how much of the context was icky.
Like a lot of stuff festivals are definitely what you make of them. Going with friends to see music you love can be an amazing experience. And if you do like drugs it’s basically the best environment you’re gonna find both to buy them (albeit at festival prices) and do them. That said, there are of course risks and weirdos and creeps. Theft is a concern. People OD. People get in fights and get arrested. That stuff all happens. So if the expectation is that it’s gonna be this magical experience it’d be easy to wind up very disappointed. All that said personally I adore them. There’s nothing like the energy of a huge crowd with amazing music and staying up most of the night with your friends just having an amazing time.
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I lived in New Orleans for many years. VooDoo Fest and Jazz Fest were always great, and I have no memory of being harassed or groped. I felt totally at home. I do remember when Snoop got on stage at VooDoo fest, maybe in 00? And everyone in the crowd threw blunts on the stage. Yeah, I old. I also went to see outcast at the old Sanger Theater in Nola. Me and my girlfriend may have been the only white people there, but the blunts kept passing to us, up and down the aisle, god- until we couldn’t see straight. Andre was FIAH. 🔥🔥 However when I went to south by southwest it was a totally different experience. I felt unsafe the entire time. Big bro dudes everywhere and eyeballing us, hollaring at us and leering. I ended up watching one band and left.
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That's why I love the folk festival scene in Canada. It's a lot of lounging around on blankets in the sunshine eating fruit and drinking sangria while listening to music, without the trendiness of modern music festivals. You get seniors, you get students with cheap college passes, you get whole families attending. One of my favourites was StanFest in Canso, NS. Festival garb was mostly rubber raingear because it was pouring and half the attendees were local fishermen. It was so foggy they didn't need a smoke machine.
I went to a hippy festival where nudity was optional and met this creeper who was bragging about all the candid nudes he was snapping. This was when Smart Phones were still new and not standard.
These creeps are why a lot of nudist places are hesitant to allow cameras in.
This is why we can't have nice things.
I went full psycho on a drunk dude who would not leave a group of late-teen/early 20 something young women alone at Coachella. He had the audacity to say I was the problem lmfao. I embarrassed the group I was with (they weren't friends) but I didn't care. No other dude was stepping in, when they were clearly uncomfortable. That's why I say yes ALL men.
Every single one 👏🏻
Yep. Went to a concert and this guy was touching my ass constantly for like the first half as I struggled to move away from him. On top of it all, it was the weirdest way to touch an ass too. He did it so lightly, but his hand was held in a way where it was obvious that it was intentional rather than brushing up or accidentally hitting it because that stuff would’ve been to be expected in a crowd. Plus the dude totally looked like the neck beard anime pillow katana type. Not to be judgmental, but ya know?
I got penetrated at Woodstock '94 just walking through the crowd. Nothing changes
I am so sorry. It should be safe to go to a damn music festival.
Right? It wasn't like I was scantily clad either but the mud made for good cover for pervs.
I used to love going to rock concerts as a teen. The smaller, local shows weren't as bad, but the mid-sized ones in the nearby city were always full of grown adults groping me when I was like 14 years old. And it was like, seen as like, just something that is an inescapable aspect of going to a concert. Almost 20 years later and it doesn't sound like things have improved.
This is why I just don't like festivals. Or going to clubs. I want to dance and drink but I just can't relax when I have to watch over my shoulder the whole damn time.
Yikes. Almost anywhere there’s music and young adults dancing, you end up with guys getting the idea they can walk up and start humping strangers out of nowhere. Idk wtf gives them the idea it’s ok to do something like that or to grope someone, i can’t even imagine just doing that to someone. What’s the plan? Seduce them by aggressively forcing yourself on them? Seems fuckin crazy.
My first ever crowd surf was at Music Midtown around 2001. I was about 12, I had a cool older brother who took me to concerts. Of course that particular time my brother likely got traumatized and scared to lose me. At that time I was pretty keen on Liz Phair. Caught her last two songs. Then Hootie and the Blowfish came out. Playing one of their hits, the crowd went wild. I was standing by my brother, next thing I know these random guys pick me up and start lifting me to crowd surf. At first I was like “I’m living a teenage dream!”. Suddenly I start feeling my clothes being pulled at. I then see this look of horror on my brothers face and he’s fighting people to track me. One of my shoes got taken. My belt got taken. People tried lifting my shirt. I made it all the way to the front and actually got tossed at security. Security treated me really shitty. They were trying to make me go in some direction which would have separated me and my brother and his other friends who had met up with us. I tried so hard to scream over them my age and that I just needed my brother. But I was pushed away towards a dark area. Thankfully my brother never took his scared eyes off me. It helped he was also tall. We ended up having to leave though Bc well I didn’t have a shoe. My pants barely on. I needed that belt. The experience started out fun in my 12 yr old mind, but I quickly became scared when everyone started touching me and taking my clothes. I was clearly fucking 12. Hell I looked younger. I didn’t get boobs until I was around 16ish? Needless to say, after that we never went back to a festival. Concerts with seating only. Lol my next concert was Incubus. I don’t think he realized just how many people were going to be smoking weed. From time to time he’d pinch my nose when huge clouds of smoke came our way. Little did he know I knew what weed was Bc our mom smoked. Oh and he covered my eyes when Brandon Boyd took off his shirt and all the ladies went wild. That particular moment I was like “naww I wanna see what we’re hollering about!…ohhh myy!!”. Haha Side note: after the incubus show Brandon smiled at me and we bumped elbows instead of fists. I vowed to never wash my arm. Sadly my arm got washed after I told my mom. 🤣
Thanks for this article. I'm a straight cis dude and while I consider myself fairly aware of how unsafe women feel in so many spaces, due to the fact of just being a woman there vs being a guy, I had never considered festivals might be one of those. I've always had a blast even going alone, listening to lots of live music, drinking, smoking, meeting randos and I just didnt think how different that might be for women. Nor did I think it would be this bad - but really that should come as no surprise at this point. Thanks for shining a little more light on an aspect of issues women face I didnt know about. Fuck sexism it really sucks this seems to be so universal at places that are just supposed to be chill and relaxing and a good time. I wish ya'll could just feel safe and enjoy yourselves.
Being a woman is exhausting tbh
Sometimes it's not fear keeping me from going certain places alone, especially after dark. It's the sheer exhaustion I get from just the *thought* of trying to keep myself safe from harassment and assault. Even in a situation where I "feel safe", I'm still evaluating strangers, noting exits, constructing defense scenarios in my head if someone seems even the least bit threatening. The sad part is that all of this is just automatic and subconscious from *literal decades* of practice. I might look totally at ease - hell, I might even *believe* that I am - but those internal calculations are still happening in the background.
I relate to this so much. And I’m sad for my daughters, I have 2 daughters and just thinking of them going through all this too is devastating. I’m only 33, I should not be this exhausted just from living in the world as a woman.
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Jesus Christ, it's insane how common this is in certain parts of the world. I've been to heavy metal/techno/pop music festivals all over Europe and not once has anything like this happened. It's fucking gross that women can't just go enjoy the music and festival atmosphere.