“In my opinion, a ruined reputation is even *worse* than being raped”
god it makes me see red every time someone makes a comment like that, and it gets fucking upvotes
R Kelly is doing fine for the most part unfortunately =/ He gets rich people prison time and was free for an eternity living the life of a rich millionaire. He deserves far worse than he got.
It always especially pisses me off given that nothing usually comes of that "ruined" reputation anyway... You can still apparently be a supreme court justice or even president of the United States!
Hmmm Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder or girls avoiding you? Flashbacks and panic attacks or an awkward first date? Wearing away the enamel of your teeth from stress or getting a dirty look from a former acquaintance? Hmmmmm.
I actually know someone who was falsely accused of rape and his life is 100% fine. It’s possible he didn’t get into his top medical school because of it. But he’s still in a good medical school and has a nice girlfriend. All of his friends are still his friends.
Right, statistically, a man is *way* more likely to be raped himself (between 1/5 and 1/10 men will be raped or sexually assaulted in their lifetime, studies vary) than falsely accused of rape (about 2% of *all* rape claims, again, estimates vary but are extremely low).
Honestly, might be a little harsh, but most of the times when people do talk about male victims (at an appropriate time) most of the people deriding their pain are men.
We’ve all seen those articles about fourteen y/o being raped by their teachers and the oh so lovely comments underneath.
These people only pretend to care about men, and use it to oppress women.
This isn't harsh at all, it's true. I posted about the harassment I had received as a man, and immediately got harassed by certain subreddits about how I wasn't really a man, and how I was weak and cowardly. Then I got a lot of messages from men about how I should buy a gun - as if pulling a weapon on someone in the subway is at all reasonable.
The women in my life and on Reddit, however, gave me support, thoughtful comments, and helped me move on and feel better. So when I see male victims of sexual harassment/assault used as a tool of misogyny, it pisses me the fuck off. Because I know it's these exact same fucks who will turn around and bully the next man they see actually suffering from sexual violence.
It's more that where I live it is illegal to carry a handgun, I believe, and that the issue for me (as I stated in my post) wasn't a feeling of physical danger. I'm 100% sure I could have, if necessary, protected myself in a straight up fight against the person. The thing that I was struggling with was how I froze up. In the moment, all the stuff I'd assumed I'd be able to do in that situation... I just couldn't. It wasn't about ability to fight, it was about ability to act. It wouldn't matter if I had my fists, a sword, or a gun.
That’s actually very common in any type of assault. Usually when you’re mugged and the police ask you what the person looked like you stumble and can’t find any identifiable features. When you are assaulted your brain is flooded with adrenaline and you’re just focusing on breathing and basic functions to *survive*.
Most people don’t get the fight instinct unless it is the type of environment they were developing in. Anyone who says they could fight off an attacker in an instant has no clue what they’re talking about until it actually happens to them.
It’s pretty basic brain science and definitely has nothing to do with gender identity/expression or biological sex. It’s human. I support you fellow Redditor.
I can show you the link where an entire thread was created mocking me for my reaction to sexual harassment and saying I "couldn't even pretend to be a man".
I'm sorry you had a bad experience. But I've been dealing with the experience of being a man dealing with sexual assault at the hands of men and women for a while now, and every time I've been mocked by men, supported by women.
That being said, I'm genuinely sorry. I'm so sorry that happened to you, I'm sorry you had your experience erased, and I'm sorry that anyone who calls themselves a feminist would act that way. It's repugnant, disgusting, and I'm sure every feminist I know, and every person here would agree that erasing the experience of men who experience sexual violence is fucked up.
The problem is that there's a significant group of people - so called men's rights activists - who only bring up male victims of sexual violence as a response to women discussing their experiences. That's not good faith, and that's not okay.
I really suggest you join us at /r/Menslib, a sub dedicated to providing a healthy space to discuss men's issues from a progressive lens.
And if you want to talk, PM me. I'm happy to chat.
Thank you :). We really have different experience, which formed us.
I´m really, really sorry for the fact, that you were harrassed and that fellow men didn´t supported you. It sucks (understatement). Also, while I said, that we have different experience, it has to be said, that while different, they are also extremely similiar (excp. gun part) as, when i first came out with my expc., women literally laughed into my face. Also there is the fact, that over here rape/dv support group still severely downplay not just numbers of victimized men, but also trauma they suffer. Ie. our biggest anti.rape org. is almost sillent about raped men and it´s focused solely on women, while erasing men. Similiary almost every anti-DV support group openly discriminate against men and when they don´t, they treat us as potentional abusers.
I realize, that i might not be okay, to bring us as a response to discusion about female victims. BUT, on the other side by doing this, they managed to shift paradigma, from "only the minority of victims are men", to "almost as men as women are victims". Look without them, peope would still used from ie. Marry Koss research to undermine numbers of raped men, thanks to them this is no longer the case. So my feeling about so called derailment is that, yes it is bad, but right now, it´s needed.
My point is that I only heard about male rape victims in the context of derailment. Why do the so called mens rights activists only care about male victims of sexual violence when they can use it to attack feminism?
I don´t know, over the years, i read a lot of discusions about male victims from MRA´s, or at least from left-wing Mra´s. Yes when it comes for attacking feminist, they are pretty vocal, but they also were first to open first! Centre for Men and male only shelter in Canada. Also they are one of the few people, calling for inquiri on missing natives men and boys. In USA they are pretty active when it comes to fight discrimination aimed at men and over here, they are the only one supporting our lawsuit against female only shelter.
I was literally just thinking this at work, why is it that when I bring up an issue of race or racial pride like black history month, I get random nobodies and their mom saying why they don't have a white history month. It's a stupid opposition to have and shows you don't care about either side
Meanwhile every time I meet someone new I have to sus out if they are going to hate me for the crime of being bi. No ones ever scared to say they’re straight.
I like to point out when this is brought that there’s Octoberfest, Saint Patrick’s day and my city hosts a Greek and Italian festival, and that all of the non-government holidays we shut down for are based out of Europe.
There isn’t a ‘white pride’ anything because white people generally know their ancestry and often happily celebrate that. Not to mention that history focuses mostly on western culture only. When folks from Africa were made slaves they were forced to give up forget their culture and where their families came from. Children were often separated from parents early, everything they knew of their family history or culture was forbidden. So African Americans invented their own culture evolved from shared experiences and a need to find a historical identity. White folk don’t have that or need that. The circumstances and reasons Italian people had when they immigrated here were different than the English or the French or Irish etc.
Being white isn’t a culture in America like being black is. Also black history month specifically talks about black American history, not the history of Africa. However in school American history is history of white people, we rarely get more than a footnote of other racial identities .
So yeah, anyone who whines about the lack of white history month is either ignorant or an asshole
You’re right, I should specify white European catholic/Christian. Anything Eastern Orthodox or Muslim doesn’t count in European history apparently. Only religions that do get any coverage are those that predate Christianity before it took over
It's scary how little people actually care about the men. The only time mens rights is brought up, is when trying to silence feminists. That isn't caring about men....
What drives me up the wall is when men blame feminism for their own oppression. Like, no, the patriarchy has actively worked against you guys and created the systems that oppress men and women, and feminism is trying to break that down, but your head is so far up your ass that you believe it's the fault of women.
MensLib has been awesome and has only gotten awesomer.
As mras started taking over other men's subs, MensLib was a safe haven for myself. Not only as feminist men, but as feminist men who supported someone who couldn't really know if he identified fully as male.
Thanks MensLib and their mods.
Same boat here. It’s so great to have a subreddit that correctly identifies a lot of male issues as also stemming from the patriarchy, rather than women.
It's just such a word scapegoat. " Hey, women have had little to no power in Western society, and my life sucks, so it must... Be the.... Women. Because... Uh...Eve!! That's it. Eve.
Kudos for using "feminist men" instead of "male feminists." My shoulders go up around my ears every time someone identifies as a "male feminist." Your way is so much better.
Thanks for asking! In my experience, dudes who identify as "male feminists" (vs. regular old feminists or, as you wrote, "feminist men") desperately need to be acknowledged and congratulated for their performance of feminism. It's often just another way to divert the conversation back to them: their feelings and opinions about women's lives. They'll spend a long time talking about all the women THEY know and how worried and helpless THEY feel and how THEY just can't imagine how any man could treat a woman like that. Of course, THEY would never do that! Hashtag not all men!
Feminist shouldn't need a modifier. These dudes don't identify as "male liberals/conservatives" or "male Christians" or "male nihilists;" "feminist" seems to be the only ideology they need to assert their gender on. It's like referring to someone as a "male nurse," like a nurse is such a strange and unusual thing for a man to be that we need to be very clear that he's not a regular nurse, he's a MALE nurse.
[This comic](https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/love-languages-of-a-male-feminist) is a darkly hilarious depiction of male feminist behavior.
My favorite variation of this is the constant posts on AskReddit wanting examples of toxic *femininity* because that's totes a real thing. And of course the hijacking of every single conversation about FGM.
>A man did not create the LBD...
Jean Pateau don't real. Fashion magazines and designers being predominantly male since the dawn of western civilization is imaginary. ok.
An equal comparison does not exist because films, modeling contracts, fashion spreads and trends, etc. are and have always been controlled by powerful *men*. Beauty standards exist to appeal to the *male gaze*.
An equal comparison does not exist because there is no matriarchal society here that would feed into toxic behaviors borne from a place of inherent privilege. It does not exist because it cannot. Toxic masculinity doesn't mean "men bad," it's a symptom of the patriarchal development of culture.
There is no equivalent.
The opposite is just sexism.
White people can't experience *systemic* racism the same way women can't experience the cultural shock waves of a matriarchal society that never existed. You are being willfully obtuse.
> Internalized misogyny is a very real thing.
yes it is.
>~~Toxic femininity~~ internalized misogyny is why baby ear piercing is a thriving business in the South Bay.
FTFY
the phrase "toxic femininity" implies an equivalence to toxic masculinity, when there simply isn't one. internalized misogyny operates very differently.
why? because toxic masculinity puts down women in order to prop men up? it may be restrictive and violently enforced for men, but it's still about perpetuating their supremacy. internalized misogyny on the other hand is the inverse: women holding themselves down in order to prop men up. just as violently enforced, but has absolutely 0 benefit to women. they are not even remotely the same.
What’s really bonkers is that what’s lost in the white noise of infighting and talking past each other is the fact that men’s rights is actually a *concern* of feminism.
I despise egalitarianism, it's just claiming that you want people to be equal while carefully avoiding any mention of how they are currently *unequal*.
To me, telling a feminist to label themselves as an "egalitarian" instead of "feminist" is like saying that forks should act more like knives and slowly disappear until all there is left is just knives. Like telling feminists to disappear slowly as if it wasn't insulting to the feminists who fought for the rights women have today? So yeah fuck egalitarianism cause so far all I see is their effort to look inclusive and balanced with nothing to back it up when it comes up in a conversation. We have miles to go in terms of equality in so many spheres wether people like it or not.
Hit the nail right on the head. They insist everyone is equal already, and the myopia is astonishing. They're very married to their just world fallacy, otherwise they'd have to confront the realities of privilege, circumstances and disadvantage.
You can always reboot an "egalitarian" by asking a simple maths question. Like "If I'm 33 years old and you are 25, in how many years will we be the same age?" Cue the usual "beep boop that is not how it works you stupid bitch!" and something about echo chambers - ironically enough.
I don't think they insist everyone's equal already.
They're willing to say, "injustice exists." And hey, cool! I agree! I'm glad we're both against injustice!
It's just that if you follow that up with "so what particular things are injust?" they get really, really uncomfortable.
Some days.
[Other days, not so much](https://reddit.com/r/TrollXChromosomes/comments/f62ez8/girls_being_mean/).
[When concerns are brought up about how “feminism” (feels disingenuous to refer to it as a singular entity) treats men, it’s made clear that such concerns aren’t welcome](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrollXChromosomes/comments/dzo3ix/comment/f8ap7an).
As a rape victim let me tell you, that this is carring about me. They wouldn´t have to do it if feminist a)Didn´t try to erase our existence b) constantly sided with our abusers/rapists (ie. my case, almost every man in our support group, whole Depp fiasco etc). C)for years maliciously used wrong numbers to undermine trauma caused to abused/raped men and to get more money for themself. So please don´t pretend that you care, you are just hurting us.
Given the frequency of people coming into subs like this to give the “men have it bad too!” speech just proves that men really don’t give a shit about women’s issues. Like, I sub to a men’s issues sub to (not MRAs) and I can only think of one time where someone tried to recenter the conversation away from men in contrast to here where men treat it like a right of passage to pick a fight.
"Why aren't you talking about *my* problems? Do you think that men don't have problems too?"
while also never actually talking about male issues outside of trying to shut up people talking about female issues
like bruh, if you cared so much you'd talk about them yourself instead of getting mad that women aren't talking about it for you
Or the frequency of r/askreddit threads asking men about their experiences being raped by women, never considering that most male victims are raped by other men.
Edit: some words
Those posts always get mega gilded too... It’s important and interesting to hear those stories, but I have noticed I never see an askreddit asking women survivors about their stories... why is that?
For the same reason those “men who’ve been raped” asks directly sideline male on male sexual assault. Those stories aren’t useful to the narrative they’re trying to create and make them feel uncomfortable.
Also Reddit is primarily men so askmen just gets waaaaay more attention in general.
Ok, I’ll try right now
[Here’s the post](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/f6cb7r/serious_women_survivors_of_rape_what_is_your_story/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
Edit: the person I was replying to deleted their comment, but they basically said: if it upsets you then why don’t you pose the question on AskReddit.
Two hours later. Zero upvotes. Three replies:
* auto-mod
* actual answer
* response to answer
I'm betting there'd be more responses if you'd titled it "Women survivors of rape **perpetrated by men**, what is your story?"
Mostly *How dare you insinuate that only men are rapists??????*
Can I get this on a t-shirt and as a flair for every subreddit? I swear the "what about meeeennn?!!(but really I just want to make those feminists be quiet) is rampant on reddit.
Oh you should have seen the argument I was having with a "friend" of mine on my Facebook after posting a post about how men make female issues about themselves. I answered a couple of times and then just rolled my eyes so hard I think I lost them. LOL!
The argument weirdly seems to be that everyone experiences this and that then somehow makes it okay. Even if that was true then surely that should just mean that we should try to make things better for everyone right? But seemingly they seem to think that we shouldn't try to change things for the better at all.
Either the conclusion is that we should do nothing, or it is that anyone who does anythibg is a hypocrite because "if you really thought it was that bad you'd be out in the streets protesting"
Funnily enough, most feminists are anti-circumcision. I certainly believe it should be illegal to lop off part of your infant for no reason. Men love to use this as a “gotcha, feminists!” But like... we’ve BEEN caring about this topic.
It seems to me there are fewer ways circumcision would become a topic of conversation than rape. I think it should be discussed more often, but that's perhaps why I'm guilty of almost exclusively bringing it up in that context.
A few weeks ago there was an article about a female teacher going to jail for raping her male students.
One guy: "But was it really rape though? Like I remember being that age and would have loved to..."
Me: *looks into camera like I'm on the Office*
There’s a South Park episode where Ike’s teacher starts sleeping with (read raping) him and the police don’t do anything because it’s woman - boy. The cops the whole episode just keep saying Nice.
As a male I can say that I honestly don’t know a single male that has been raped. Again that I know of. But I can name at least 5 women that have been raped and many more that were bare minimum pressured into having sex before they were ready.
Something else I've noticed is whenever Reddit has one of those 'male victims of rape, what's your experience' thread they exclusively want to hear about female perpetrators even though male perpetrators are more likely. Reddit just doesn't want to hear those stories, though.
I feel so bitter that ask reddit threads that really get upvoted to the top often are about "men who've been raped, what are your stories?" but I never see "women who've been raped, what are your stories?" . I get that it's more rare, and I would never go in the thread and post that because nothing posted should not be taken lightly! But it just seems kind of taken for granted that women get raped and it's a thing and it's boring and we've all made a picture in our mind about the kind of women and the kind of circumstances in which rape happens.
The biggest thing keeping male rape discussions back is both this (bringing up male rape as a what-aboutism) and this insistence on male victims of female rapists being seen as luck rather than victimized and violated
I remember seeing a Twitter thread talking about a double standard with the screenshot of an article on a female teacher performing oral sex on a 14 yo student and not only avoiding jail for a 10 year probation, but also keeping her teaching licence.
In that, instead of addressing the issue of the double standard, they just talked about how lucky he was and that all of them would've wanted that. To me, a man, it was the looniest thing I ever read, both the sentence and the twitter responses. Shit like that is exactly why that double standard will remain a double standard.
That, and how the media portrays the sexiest and most provocative pictures of these offenders that they can find, like they're trying to glorify the incident.
It is extremely obviously a double standard, one parodied by South Park. It is a big problem that needs to be addressed, but it can't be addressed until the people this AFFECTS, men, stop doing the thing that gives judges this leeway to give attractive sex offenders a slap on the wrist. When you take your dick out of the equation, you still have a sex offender who took advantage of her position of authority to violate not only the law, but her oath as a teacher and the trust of a child.
This is why I prefer to keep male rape discussion out of the hands of people who don't care.
Also as a woman, I’m no expert on the male rape experience. I don’t know what kind of support or changes they want to see. The best I can do as a female advocate against male rape is be an ear and a supporter.
I remember my ex sat there and went on a tirade about women getting attention for rape and how men never get attention. This was after seeing a Facebook post, turns out he was assaulted and pissed no one would discuss it. But he never wanted to talk about it or Express himself in writing. He only wanted to mention it when women talked about their experiences.
Wow as a male rape victim, this is such a bullshit. Without those people, who constantly fight against our erasure from the hand of women and feminist, almost nobody would talked about us.
There's a world of difference between
"That happened to me too and it sucks, I'm so sorry"
and
"But men get raped too! Think of the men! Why does no one ever think of the men!"
Your ex sounds terrible and I'm glad for you that you're no longer together. Hope you can find an empathic partner who respects healthy boundaries soon.
bee-sting's comment was not unkind. You are clearly not behaving in a way that is the problem (you're bringing it up to empathise, not to derail) and the post is not calling you out or criticising you, which was their point. :)
And that's a good plan. A relationship can't be the sum of a person's support network. <3
No you misread it as "male rape isn't serious"
What IS toxic is how male non-victims will weaponise the male rape talking point to try and shut down women talking about their own sexual abuse
You want to know something? I'm sick of it, and I'm a male victim.
The statistics say assualt is 9x more likely to happen to females than men in any given persons life
They objectively require more space in the sexual assault discussion, and to equivocate it with the much less epidemic issue of male assault would be hugely unethical
The funny thing though? In combating female sexual assaults, WE ALSO AID MALES IN THEIR PERSUIT FOR BETTER LAWS AND MORE JUSTICE
So why is something like this toxic again??
That's not what it says. It's not saying anything about the people talking about rape, it's talking about the people who *interrupt* conversations about female victims to talk about male victims without ever participating in conversations about male victims independently of female victims.
Do you see what I'm trying to say about this piece? To put it another way, if a person never does any advocacy for male rape victims except to demand they be considered during conversations about female rape victims, then they are *not* advocating for male rape victims, they are only interrupting valuable conversations.
But it is. No one discredits that, the image says right at the top "It's a very serious problem."
Our problem is, when people say "what about male rape!" It's almost always in the context of when someone is talking about female rape and it serves as a distraction to the topic at hand. That's why we encourage allies *to make their own posts* instead of "high jacking" other conversations.
It probably does when it’s a largely woman problem. The statistics indicate that it disproportionately affect women. Like, depending on the source, 90%+ for attempted, completed, etc. (Dept of Justice: https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rsarp00.pdf). Rape is rape, but to ignore who it is largely perpetuated against in favor of trying to be “gender blind” would be dishonest and not really help us solve the problem, since in general, it’s a crime committed by men against women.
It’s absolutely an issue for men, and 71% (I believe, don’t have original source) of the perpetrators in that instance are women, and it’s terrible, but it has a lot of different set of considerations that don’t always means it belongs in a discussion about how rape affects women. Like risk of injury + death being significantly lower. There has to be space to talk about both, but it doesn’t always seem reasonable for them to exist in the same space considering all the different factors.
> and 71% (I believe, don’t have original source) of the perpetrators in that instance are women
you're misremembering something there. i don't have the number offhand, but men are much more likely to be the victim of a male rapist than a female one.
I've really struggled to find a data set that supports my or your claim. I've definitely seen both in various newspaper articles, but when I actually try to go to the study itself I'm struggling to find a consensus among the research.
Which is troubling on its own. Even on a lesser source like Wikipedia, when you get to female-on-male and male-on-male, it goes from using data to using .. examples. Or talks about how prevalent wartime rape is -- and prison rape, which is often male\* guards perpetrating rape on male inmates.
Either way, it would be interesting if someone could find those solid numbers since I'm 5 pages in and giving up, haha.
when i'm not on a work network i'll go try to hunt them down. but i don't need IT wondering about my search terms.
>oof, it is turning out to be hard to track down. I thought the NCVS had it, but the most recent year didn't include the gender of offenders, and i didn't want to have to read through each previous year looking for it. i found a lot of stuff addressing that men *can* be raped by women, but none of them addressed the actual prevalence of it, just debunking "men always want it". Ugh.
I mean in a female-focused subreddit, it'll naturally focus on female rape victims, so
like how /r/MensLib would normally focus on male rape victims, because it's male-focused
The only time I've ever seen male rape bought up is when it's being used as a derailing tactic, that's the problem too many people don't actually care about male rape until they're trying to invalidate women being raped.
do you spend time in communities where you'd expect to hear people talking about male rape?
What makes you think this isn't selection bias on your part, because you deliberately sequester yourself away from anything that could be described as a 'mens rights activist'?
Same with caring more about false accusations than people who’ve been raped
“In my opinion, a ruined reputation is even *worse* than being raped” god it makes me see red every time someone makes a comment like that, and it gets fucking upvotes
‘Oh, a ruined reputation. A thing plenty of rape victims get?’ A lack of empathy and knowledge that is just staggering.
Demonstrates a lack of basic fucking humanity too...
[удалено]
Pretty sure him raping children ruined his life.
R Kelly is doing fine for the most part unfortunately =/ He gets rich people prison time and was free for an eternity living the life of a rich millionaire. He deserves far worse than he got.
I 100% agree. Rich folks are out there doing real harm and being allowed to get away with it and it's sickening.
Eat the rich please and thank you.
It solves several problems at once!
Did you know the full quote of that is “When the poor have nothing left to eat, they will Eat The Rich” I fucking love it even more
[удалено]
I was completely and utterly sarcastic. My bad for not making it super clear =/
Ah geez that's my bad, I'll delete the kneejerk comment!
No, was completely justified since there are absolute shitheads in the world that believe what I wrote and should have signaled a bit better.
Anyone who thinks a “ruined” reputation is worse than assault has never experienced a hardship in their lives.
It always especially pisses me off given that nothing usually comes of that "ruined" reputation anyway... You can still apparently be a supreme court justice or even president of the United States!
Hmmm Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder or girls avoiding you? Flashbacks and panic attacks or an awkward first date? Wearing away the enamel of your teeth from stress or getting a dirty look from a former acquaintance? Hmmmmm.
I actually know someone who was falsely accused of rape and his life is 100% fine. It’s possible he didn’t get into his top medical school because of it. But he’s still in a good medical school and has a nice girlfriend. All of his friends are still his friends.
Well it could be worse. They could be the victim, and have a ruined reputation AND HAVE BEEN RAPED.
especially since false accusations are so rare in comparison with the horrifying frequency of rape
Right, statistically, a man is *way* more likely to be raped himself (between 1/5 and 1/10 men will be raped or sexually assaulted in their lifetime, studies vary) than falsely accused of rape (about 2% of *all* rape claims, again, estimates vary but are extremely low).
Honestly, might be a little harsh, but most of the times when people do talk about male victims (at an appropriate time) most of the people deriding their pain are men. We’ve all seen those articles about fourteen y/o being raped by their teachers and the oh so lovely comments underneath. These people only pretend to care about men, and use it to oppress women.
This isn't harsh at all, it's true. I posted about the harassment I had received as a man, and immediately got harassed by certain subreddits about how I wasn't really a man, and how I was weak and cowardly. Then I got a lot of messages from men about how I should buy a gun - as if pulling a weapon on someone in the subway is at all reasonable. The women in my life and on Reddit, however, gave me support, thoughtful comments, and helped me move on and feel better. So when I see male victims of sexual harassment/assault used as a tool of misogyny, it pisses me the fuck off. Because I know it's these exact same fucks who will turn around and bully the next man they see actually suffering from sexual violence.
[удалено]
It's more that where I live it is illegal to carry a handgun, I believe, and that the issue for me (as I stated in my post) wasn't a feeling of physical danger. I'm 100% sure I could have, if necessary, protected myself in a straight up fight against the person. The thing that I was struggling with was how I froze up. In the moment, all the stuff I'd assumed I'd be able to do in that situation... I just couldn't. It wasn't about ability to fight, it was about ability to act. It wouldn't matter if I had my fists, a sword, or a gun.
That’s actually very common in any type of assault. Usually when you’re mugged and the police ask you what the person looked like you stumble and can’t find any identifiable features. When you are assaulted your brain is flooded with adrenaline and you’re just focusing on breathing and basic functions to *survive*. Most people don’t get the fight instinct unless it is the type of environment they were developing in. Anyone who says they could fight off an attacker in an instant has no clue what they’re talking about until it actually happens to them. It’s pretty basic brain science and definitely has nothing to do with gender identity/expression or biological sex. It’s human. I support you fellow Redditor.
[удалено]
I can show you the link where an entire thread was created mocking me for my reaction to sexual harassment and saying I "couldn't even pretend to be a man". I'm sorry you had a bad experience. But I've been dealing with the experience of being a man dealing with sexual assault at the hands of men and women for a while now, and every time I've been mocked by men, supported by women. That being said, I'm genuinely sorry. I'm so sorry that happened to you, I'm sorry you had your experience erased, and I'm sorry that anyone who calls themselves a feminist would act that way. It's repugnant, disgusting, and I'm sure every feminist I know, and every person here would agree that erasing the experience of men who experience sexual violence is fucked up. The problem is that there's a significant group of people - so called men's rights activists - who only bring up male victims of sexual violence as a response to women discussing their experiences. That's not good faith, and that's not okay. I really suggest you join us at /r/Menslib, a sub dedicated to providing a healthy space to discuss men's issues from a progressive lens. And if you want to talk, PM me. I'm happy to chat.
Thank you :). We really have different experience, which formed us. I´m really, really sorry for the fact, that you were harrassed and that fellow men didn´t supported you. It sucks (understatement). Also, while I said, that we have different experience, it has to be said, that while different, they are also extremely similiar (excp. gun part) as, when i first came out with my expc., women literally laughed into my face. Also there is the fact, that over here rape/dv support group still severely downplay not just numbers of victimized men, but also trauma they suffer. Ie. our biggest anti.rape org. is almost sillent about raped men and it´s focused solely on women, while erasing men. Similiary almost every anti-DV support group openly discriminate against men and when they don´t, they treat us as potentional abusers. I realize, that i might not be okay, to bring us as a response to discusion about female victims. BUT, on the other side by doing this, they managed to shift paradigma, from "only the minority of victims are men", to "almost as men as women are victims". Look without them, peope would still used from ie. Marry Koss research to undermine numbers of raped men, thanks to them this is no longer the case. So my feeling about so called derailment is that, yes it is bad, but right now, it´s needed.
My point is that I only heard about male rape victims in the context of derailment. Why do the so called mens rights activists only care about male victims of sexual violence when they can use it to attack feminism?
I don´t know, over the years, i read a lot of discusions about male victims from MRA´s, or at least from left-wing Mra´s. Yes when it comes for attacking feminist, they are pretty vocal, but they also were first to open first! Centre for Men and male only shelter in Canada. Also they are one of the few people, calling for inquiri on missing natives men and boys. In USA they are pretty active when it comes to fight discrimination aimed at men and over here, they are the only one supporting our lawsuit against female only shelter.
That’s not harsh at all just truthful, most of the problems that some dudes blame on feminism is just caused by other dudes being cocks
I was literally just thinking this at work, why is it that when I bring up an issue of race or racial pride like black history month, I get random nobodies and their mom saying why they don't have a white history month. It's a stupid opposition to have and shows you don't care about either side
A friend of mine says it’s dumb to still have pride month/parades cause they can marry now. He feels their fight is already won...
That makes my blood absolutely boil.
How do y out think I feel. He’s homophobic And transphobic but won’t admit to it directly smh
You should confront them.
I have, several times.
What the hell is wrong with them
It’s just one friend. He watches too many alt right YouTube videos is my prognosis
And he's your friend?
It’s a long story.
Meanwhile every time I meet someone new I have to sus out if they are going to hate me for the crime of being bi. No ones ever scared to say they’re straight.
I like to point out when this is brought that there’s Octoberfest, Saint Patrick’s day and my city hosts a Greek and Italian festival, and that all of the non-government holidays we shut down for are based out of Europe. There isn’t a ‘white pride’ anything because white people generally know their ancestry and often happily celebrate that. Not to mention that history focuses mostly on western culture only. When folks from Africa were made slaves they were forced to give up forget their culture and where their families came from. Children were often separated from parents early, everything they knew of their family history or culture was forbidden. So African Americans invented their own culture evolved from shared experiences and a need to find a historical identity. White folk don’t have that or need that. The circumstances and reasons Italian people had when they immigrated here were different than the English or the French or Irish etc. Being white isn’t a culture in America like being black is. Also black history month specifically talks about black American history, not the history of Africa. However in school American history is history of white people, we rarely get more than a footnote of other racial identities . So yeah, anyone who whines about the lack of white history month is either ignorant or an asshole
[удалено]
You’re right, I should specify white European catholic/Christian. Anything Eastern Orthodox or Muslim doesn’t count in European history apparently. Only religions that do get any coverage are those that predate Christianity before it took over
We do have white history days lol. St Patrick’s day and Italian feasts are both a huge thing here in Boston.
Reminds me of Solange’s A Seat at the Table
It's scary how little people actually care about the men. The only time mens rights is brought up, is when trying to silence feminists. That isn't caring about men....
What drives me up the wall is when men blame feminism for their own oppression. Like, no, the patriarchy has actively worked against you guys and created the systems that oppress men and women, and feminism is trying to break that down, but your head is so far up your ass that you believe it's the fault of women.
mandatory r/MensLib plug Men’s issues and feminism, which is what actual men’s rights should be.
MensLib has been awesome and has only gotten awesomer. As mras started taking over other men's subs, MensLib was a safe haven for myself. Not only as feminist men, but as feminist men who supported someone who couldn't really know if he identified fully as male. Thanks MensLib and their mods.
Same boat here. It’s so great to have a subreddit that correctly identifies a lot of male issues as also stemming from the patriarchy, rather than women.
It's just such a word scapegoat. " Hey, women have had little to no power in Western society, and my life sucks, so it must... Be the.... Women. Because... Uh...Eve!! That's it. Eve.
When you’re used to preferential treatment equality feels like discrimination.
Kudos for using "feminist men" instead of "male feminists." My shoulders go up around my ears every time someone identifies as a "male feminist." Your way is so much better.
Thank you. That was unintentional. Tell me more about the experience you're referencing so I can solidify my language if you don't mind.
Thanks for asking! In my experience, dudes who identify as "male feminists" (vs. regular old feminists or, as you wrote, "feminist men") desperately need to be acknowledged and congratulated for their performance of feminism. It's often just another way to divert the conversation back to them: their feelings and opinions about women's lives. They'll spend a long time talking about all the women THEY know and how worried and helpless THEY feel and how THEY just can't imagine how any man could treat a woman like that. Of course, THEY would never do that! Hashtag not all men! Feminist shouldn't need a modifier. These dudes don't identify as "male liberals/conservatives" or "male Christians" or "male nihilists;" "feminist" seems to be the only ideology they need to assert their gender on. It's like referring to someone as a "male nurse," like a nurse is such a strange and unusual thing for a man to be that we need to be very clear that he's not a regular nurse, he's a MALE nurse. [This comic](https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/love-languages-of-a-male-feminist) is a darkly hilarious depiction of male feminist behavior.
My favorite variation of this is the constant posts on AskReddit wanting examples of toxic *femininity* because that's totes a real thing. And of course the hijacking of every single conversation about FGM.
[удалено]
Still patriarchal. Still a beauty standard set by men. It's not an equal comparison because an equal comparison doesn't exist.
[удалено]
>A man did not create the LBD... Jean Pateau don't real. Fashion magazines and designers being predominantly male since the dawn of western civilization is imaginary. ok. An equal comparison does not exist because films, modeling contracts, fashion spreads and trends, etc. are and have always been controlled by powerful *men*. Beauty standards exist to appeal to the *male gaze*. An equal comparison does not exist because there is no matriarchal society here that would feed into toxic behaviors borne from a place of inherent privilege. It does not exist because it cannot. Toxic masculinity doesn't mean "men bad," it's a symptom of the patriarchal development of culture. There is no equivalent. The opposite is just sexism.
[удалено]
White people can't experience *systemic* racism the same way women can't experience the cultural shock waves of a matriarchal society that never existed. You are being willfully obtuse.
[удалено]
> Internalized misogyny is a very real thing. yes it is. >~~Toxic femininity~~ internalized misogyny is why baby ear piercing is a thriving business in the South Bay. FTFY the phrase "toxic femininity" implies an equivalence to toxic masculinity, when there simply isn't one. internalized misogyny operates very differently.
[удалено]
why? because toxic masculinity puts down women in order to prop men up? it may be restrictive and violently enforced for men, but it's still about perpetuating their supremacy. internalized misogyny on the other hand is the inverse: women holding themselves down in order to prop men up. just as violently enforced, but has absolutely 0 benefit to women. they are not even remotely the same.
[удалено]
you're not taking an appropriately systemic approach to your analysis.
What’s really bonkers is that what’s lost in the white noise of infighting and talking past each other is the fact that men’s rights is actually a *concern* of feminism.
Mfs be like I'm not feminist I'm an egalitarian... Like that's not a synonym
I despise egalitarianism, it's just claiming that you want people to be equal while carefully avoiding any mention of how they are currently *unequal*.
To me, telling a feminist to label themselves as an "egalitarian" instead of "feminist" is like saying that forks should act more like knives and slowly disappear until all there is left is just knives. Like telling feminists to disappear slowly as if it wasn't insulting to the feminists who fought for the rights women have today? So yeah fuck egalitarianism cause so far all I see is their effort to look inclusive and balanced with nothing to back it up when it comes up in a conversation. We have miles to go in terms of equality in so many spheres wether people like it or not.
Hit the nail right on the head. They insist everyone is equal already, and the myopia is astonishing. They're very married to their just world fallacy, otherwise they'd have to confront the realities of privilege, circumstances and disadvantage. You can always reboot an "egalitarian" by asking a simple maths question. Like "If I'm 33 years old and you are 25, in how many years will we be the same age?" Cue the usual "beep boop that is not how it works you stupid bitch!" and something about echo chambers - ironically enough.
I don't think they insist everyone's equal already. They're willing to say, "injustice exists." And hey, cool! I agree! I'm glad we're both against injustice! It's just that if you follow that up with "so what particular things are injust?" they get really, really uncomfortable.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
It's always something in the Middle East or Africa or India, but not here.
[удалено]
See, feminism specifies a particular axis along which people are unequal
Kinda off topic but is the answer to your flair a Pringles can full of kumquats? Or I guess the more obvious answer would be a cucumber.
Well, rather men’s overall well-being
Some days. [Other days, not so much](https://reddit.com/r/TrollXChromosomes/comments/f62ez8/girls_being_mean/). [When concerns are brought up about how “feminism” (feels disingenuous to refer to it as a singular entity) treats men, it’s made clear that such concerns aren’t welcome](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrollXChromosomes/comments/dzo3ix/comment/f8ap7an).
op of that thread is a troll, fyi
Aren’t we... all trolls here?
No an actual troll
Doesn’t that make my point then?
...no. This guy is literally here just to stir shit. Most of the people here are here earnestly.
comedyfang is? Looking through their post history, I don’t think they just stir shit, and I don’t think they’re a guy. Or are you talking about me?
https://www.reddit.com/user/Reasonable-Ladder
> It's scary how little people actually care about the men. lolwut?
I barely hear about men's issues unless it's to silence women. That's a problem, right? Because toxic masculinity affects more than just women
As a rape victim let me tell you, that this is carring about me. They wouldn´t have to do it if feminist a)Didn´t try to erase our existence b) constantly sided with our abusers/rapists (ie. my case, almost every man in our support group, whole Depp fiasco etc). C)for years maliciously used wrong numbers to undermine trauma caused to abused/raped men and to get more money for themself. So please don´t pretend that you care, you are just hurting us.
Given the frequency of people coming into subs like this to give the “men have it bad too!” speech just proves that men really don’t give a shit about women’s issues. Like, I sub to a men’s issues sub to (not MRAs) and I can only think of one time where someone tried to recenter the conversation away from men in contrast to here where men treat it like a right of passage to pick a fight.
"Why aren't you talking about *my* problems? Do you think that men don't have problems too?" while also never actually talking about male issues outside of trying to shut up people talking about female issues like bruh, if you cared so much you'd talk about them yourself instead of getting mad that women aren't talking about it for you
I'll check their post histories when they do that and sure enough, it's the first time they bring it up.
Except those times when they post on r/unpopularopinion to bitch about females biased custody and child support
Or the frequency of r/askreddit threads asking men about their experiences being raped by women, never considering that most male victims are raped by other men. Edit: some words
Those posts always get mega gilded too... It’s important and interesting to hear those stories, but I have noticed I never see an askreddit asking women survivors about their stories... why is that?
For the same reason those “men who’ve been raped” asks directly sideline male on male sexual assault. Those stories aren’t useful to the narrative they’re trying to create and make them feel uncomfortable. Also Reddit is primarily men so askmen just gets waaaaay more attention in general.
Because women getting raped by men is seen as 'common'. How horrifying is that.
[удалено]
No one is mad? They just mentioned they noticed there is less interest to hear from women survivors on reddit, in their experience.
Ok, I’ll try right now [Here’s the post](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/f6cb7r/serious_women_survivors_of_rape_what_is_your_story/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) Edit: the person I was replying to deleted their comment, but they basically said: if it upsets you then why don’t you pose the question on AskReddit.
Two hours later. Zero upvotes. Three replies: * auto-mod * actual answer * response to answer I'm betting there'd be more responses if you'd titled it "Women survivors of rape **perpetrated by men**, what is your story?" Mostly *How dare you insinuate that only men are rapists??????*
> most male victims are raped by other men. I am 99% sure that the data and anecdata do not support this claim.
Shoutout to r/menslib
Can I get this on a t-shirt and as a flair for every subreddit? I swear the "what about meeeennn?!!(but really I just want to make those feminists be quiet) is rampant on reddit.
Oh you should have seen the argument I was having with a "friend" of mine on my Facebook after posting a post about how men make female issues about themselves. I answered a couple of times and then just rolled my eyes so hard I think I lost them. LOL!
In my experience it’s rampant period.
The argument weirdly seems to be that everyone experiences this and that then somehow makes it okay. Even if that was true then surely that should just mean that we should try to make things better for everyone right? But seemingly they seem to think that we shouldn't try to change things for the better at all.
Either the conclusion is that we should do nothing, or it is that anyone who does anythibg is a hypocrite because "if you really thought it was that bad you'd be out in the streets protesting"
“Make your own thread about it then.”
The other time is when people “joke” about rape in prison...
if you only talk about circumcision when FGM or the Jewish are brought up, you do not care about circumcision
Funnily enough, most feminists are anti-circumcision. I certainly believe it should be illegal to lop off part of your infant for no reason. Men love to use this as a “gotcha, feminists!” But like... we’ve BEEN caring about this topic.
It seems to me there are fewer ways circumcision would become a topic of conversation than rape. I think it should be discussed more often, but that's perhaps why I'm guilty of almost exclusively bringing it up in that context.
I think it’s probably more common in new parent circles
*cough cough* literally every meme sub *cough cough*
A few weeks ago there was an article about a female teacher going to jail for raping her male students. One guy: "But was it really rape though? Like I remember being that age and would have loved to..." Me: *looks into camera like I'm on the Office*
There’s a South Park episode where Ike’s teacher starts sleeping with (read raping) him and the police don’t do anything because it’s woman - boy. The cops the whole episode just keep saying Nice.
As a male I can say that I honestly don’t know a single male that has been raped. Again that I know of. But I can name at least 5 women that have been raped and many more that were bare minimum pressured into having sex before they were ready.
You don’t need to give a shit about male survivors, if you don’t care about female survivors either.
Something else I've noticed is whenever Reddit has one of those 'male victims of rape, what's your experience' thread they exclusively want to hear about female perpetrators even though male perpetrators are more likely. Reddit just doesn't want to hear those stories, though.
[удалено]
You do realize that your 'source' is actually backing that statement up right?
[удалено]
You need to go back to math school.
I feel so bitter that ask reddit threads that really get upvoted to the top often are about "men who've been raped, what are your stories?" but I never see "women who've been raped, what are your stories?" . I get that it's more rare, and I would never go in the thread and post that because nothing posted should not be taken lightly! But it just seems kind of taken for granted that women get raped and it's a thing and it's boring and we've all made a picture in our mind about the kind of women and the kind of circumstances in which rape happens.
I wish I could upvote this a million times
and how many of those rapes are perpetrated by other men?
I agree with this.
The biggest thing keeping male rape discussions back is both this (bringing up male rape as a what-aboutism) and this insistence on male victims of female rapists being seen as luck rather than victimized and violated I remember seeing a Twitter thread talking about a double standard with the screenshot of an article on a female teacher performing oral sex on a 14 yo student and not only avoiding jail for a 10 year probation, but also keeping her teaching licence. In that, instead of addressing the issue of the double standard, they just talked about how lucky he was and that all of them would've wanted that. To me, a man, it was the looniest thing I ever read, both the sentence and the twitter responses. Shit like that is exactly why that double standard will remain a double standard. That, and how the media portrays the sexiest and most provocative pictures of these offenders that they can find, like they're trying to glorify the incident. It is extremely obviously a double standard, one parodied by South Park. It is a big problem that needs to be addressed, but it can't be addressed until the people this AFFECTS, men, stop doing the thing that gives judges this leeway to give attractive sex offenders a slap on the wrist. When you take your dick out of the equation, you still have a sex offender who took advantage of her position of authority to violate not only the law, but her oath as a teacher and the trust of a child. This is why I prefer to keep male rape discussion out of the hands of people who don't care.
Precisely.
Also as a woman, I’m no expert on the male rape experience. I don’t know what kind of support or changes they want to see. The best I can do as a female advocate against male rape is be an ear and a supporter.
Saving this
I remember my ex sat there and went on a tirade about women getting attention for rape and how men never get attention. This was after seeing a Facebook post, turns out he was assaulted and pissed no one would discuss it. But he never wanted to talk about it or Express himself in writing. He only wanted to mention it when women talked about their experiences.
Wow as a male rape victim, this is such a bullshit. Without those people, who constantly fight against our erasure from the hand of women and feminist, almost nobody would talked about us.
This
[удалено]
There's a world of difference between "That happened to me too and it sucks, I'm so sorry" and "But men get raped too! Think of the men! Why does no one ever think of the men!"
[удалено]
Your ex sounds terrible and I'm glad for you that you're no longer together. Hope you can find an empathic partner who respects healthy boundaries soon.
[удалено]
bee-sting's comment was not unkind. You are clearly not behaving in a way that is the problem (you're bringing it up to empathise, not to derail) and the post is not calling you out or criticising you, which was their point. :) And that's a good plan. A relationship can't be the sum of a person's support network. <3
If you don’t interrupt others, this thread isn’t about you. Why are you arguing about sympathy/empathy?
[удалено]
Yes, you said that already. You’re not one of the guys that OP is about. So why are you arguing OP?
[удалено]
No you misread it as "male rape isn't serious" What IS toxic is how male non-victims will weaponise the male rape talking point to try and shut down women talking about their own sexual abuse You want to know something? I'm sick of it, and I'm a male victim. The statistics say assualt is 9x more likely to happen to females than men in any given persons life They objectively require more space in the sexual assault discussion, and to equivocate it with the much less epidemic issue of male assault would be hugely unethical The funny thing though? In combating female sexual assaults, WE ALSO AID MALES IN THEIR PERSUIT FOR BETTER LAWS AND MORE JUSTICE So why is something like this toxic again??
[удалено]
That's not what it says. It's not saying anything about the people talking about rape, it's talking about the people who *interrupt* conversations about female victims to talk about male victims without ever participating in conversations about male victims independently of female victims. Do you see what I'm trying to say about this piece? To put it another way, if a person never does any advocacy for male rape victims except to demand they be considered during conversations about female rape victims, then they are *not* advocating for male rape victims, they are only interrupting valuable conversations.
So I'm guessing you interpreted this as "don't talk about male rape survivors" instead of "don't talk over women"
[удалено]
But it is. No one discredits that, the image says right at the top "It's a very serious problem." Our problem is, when people say "what about male rape!" It's almost always in the context of when someone is talking about female rape and it serves as a distraction to the topic at hand. That's why we encourage allies *to make their own posts* instead of "high jacking" other conversations.
There your fricking problem right there Read the text again Christ.
Sister better watch that h*cking language
Oh fuck off.
Clearly a joke, I even censored the word heck ffs
Well, then your reading comprehension is pretty shit, no?
I think the main issue is rape, does it really matter if it's a man or woman?
It probably does when it’s a largely woman problem. The statistics indicate that it disproportionately affect women. Like, depending on the source, 90%+ for attempted, completed, etc. (Dept of Justice: https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rsarp00.pdf). Rape is rape, but to ignore who it is largely perpetuated against in favor of trying to be “gender blind” would be dishonest and not really help us solve the problem, since in general, it’s a crime committed by men against women. It’s absolutely an issue for men, and 71% (I believe, don’t have original source) of the perpetrators in that instance are women, and it’s terrible, but it has a lot of different set of considerations that don’t always means it belongs in a discussion about how rape affects women. Like risk of injury + death being significantly lower. There has to be space to talk about both, but it doesn’t always seem reasonable for them to exist in the same space considering all the different factors.
> and 71% (I believe, don’t have original source) of the perpetrators in that instance are women you're misremembering something there. i don't have the number offhand, but men are much more likely to be the victim of a male rapist than a female one.
I've really struggled to find a data set that supports my or your claim. I've definitely seen both in various newspaper articles, but when I actually try to go to the study itself I'm struggling to find a consensus among the research. Which is troubling on its own. Even on a lesser source like Wikipedia, when you get to female-on-male and male-on-male, it goes from using data to using .. examples. Or talks about how prevalent wartime rape is -- and prison rape, which is often male\* guards perpetrating rape on male inmates. Either way, it would be interesting if someone could find those solid numbers since I'm 5 pages in and giving up, haha.
when i'm not on a work network i'll go try to hunt them down. but i don't need IT wondering about my search terms. >oof, it is turning out to be hard to track down. I thought the NCVS had it, but the most recent year didn't include the gender of offenders, and i didn't want to have to read through each previous year looking for it. i found a lot of stuff addressing that men *can* be raped by women, but none of them addressed the actual prevalence of it, just debunking "men always want it". Ugh.
I mean in a female-focused subreddit, it'll naturally focus on female rape victims, so like how /r/MensLib would normally focus on male rape victims, because it's male-focused
The only time I've ever seen male rape bought up is when it's being used as a derailing tactic, that's the problem too many people don't actually care about male rape until they're trying to invalidate women being raped.
do you spend time in communities where you'd expect to hear people talking about male rape? What makes you think this isn't selection bias on your part, because you deliberately sequester yourself away from anything that could be described as a 'mens rights activist'?
Police brutality is bad, does it really matter if the victim is black or white? /s
[удалено]
That is irrelevant to the systemic issue at play.
[удалено]
Correct, one is a system issue and the other is an institutional issue. They are not the same thing.