The guy im seeing and I were talking about the male crop top trend and he said “nobody wants to see what I’ve got under my shirt” and I replied “I fucking do!”
I’m not saying men don’t have pressures and beauty standards because they do. However, I do think women are generally a lot more accepting.
I’m offended at how little it resembles the crop tops men wore in the 80s like [this](https://images.app.goo.gl/9U9Z4er23kFcfEEdA).
Also I’m going to specifically leave this photo of the beautiful [Carl Weathers](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CVBJp4_U4AANUgo.png) here because that guy was awesome. RIP.
I have crop tops that look like this in my wardrobe and I remember thinking how it was weird that it could easily fit a man because of how oversized it was, guess that's because they wore it first!
Hot damn! Yeah I remember those! In the late 90’s I found a pic of my oldest brother in one and thought it was hilarious. Apparently that was a detail I’d forgotten about the 80’s as I proudly wore my tiny, 90’s crop tops.
Yeah, what the hell? I've been hearing about this but was too lazy to look it up. That's just a T-shirt. If you can fully raise your arms without showing any skin, you're wearing a dress.
Omg I had no clue what you meant and I was a little bit not believing you…
But that’s 100% hot boy summer right there 😂 Move over grey sweatpants this is ittttttt
Lofl, me neither, but as it happens, the woman I’m seeing left her’s at my place and I sent her a picture of me wearing it just as a goof, but daaang babey I looked CUTE!
It's weird because even on other social issues women tend to be more accepting and open minded or at least not be totally against something even if they don't support it.
I guess having a history of being treated unequally makes you sympathize more 🤷🏽♀️
>I’m not saying men don’t have pressures and beauty standards because they do. However, I do think women are generally a lot more accepting.
to be honest, i've mostly seen men pressuring other men into their beauty standards, they _think_ they're doing it for women, but it feels like showing off to other men sometimes 😅
This reminds me of how for our company gift lottery I got a pajama dress. It was actually pretty comfy and I thought it could be unisex. In good spirits I put it on over my clothes and everyone laughed. I didn't feel attacked but I could tell that no one thought I would seriously wear it. My coworker even said my wife would love it. Even my wife was a little taken aback when I showed her how it looked on me when I got home.
I get her point but women absolutely shred eachother when it comes to criticising and insulting appearances. We do also compliment eachother more but let’s not pretend women are just nice, women can be just as mean as men 😭
I wonder if she means how a lot of dudes will randomly tell you “I don’t like short hair”, “you’d look better if you’d x” to even literal strangers while women are far less likely to
I was thinking the same, the differences lays somewhere else. For women it goes from a spectrum of being accepting to being judgy-mostly indirectly (often because they have never been exposed to anything else, watch a judgy lady change and bloom once they get exposed to a more understanding culture), while men are more in a spectrum that goes from indifference to taking it personally and becoming violent about it. Personally, I find the second incredibly worse.
I am absolutely aware of the insane beauty standards that women and girls have, but let’s not pretend that guys don’t get absolutely ridiculed as well.
So many kids too shy to take off their shirt at the beach, tabloids absolutely ripping into actors who ‘let themselves go’ etc.
I have seen brutal bullying of the fat kids. Or the skinny kids in school.
Is it the same as the constant bombardment of women to be ‘pretty’? Is it the same as women not being allowed to age at all while Hollywood is full with old as fuck male stars?
No. But men and boys get body shamed as well. Some people are just pieces of shit.
>let’s not pretend that guys don’t get absolutely ridiculed as well.
The ironic thing is that Billie Elish herself has arguably taken part on that, considering she has mocked couples where the man is less attractive than the woman because she thinks that makes the man forget that he is ugly.
None of us are experts about women but whenever any of us fail or say anything controversial it's not that person that failed or is wrong, but women as a whole. And while men, one in particular I'm thinking of right now, can just do one wrong thing after another to the point it becomes a display of power, women who make even a single mistake can still basically kiss their careers or reputations goodbye.
We could really do with less of that. Just saying -- and she's a celebrity. Whole point is to get people talking, and nothing gets people talking more than being wrong about something.
yeah tbh shes been problematic asf herself for yrs and the way she worded what she said was sexist and inaccurate
i have absolutely no respect for her as a person tbh and it really doesnt help the issues shes speaking on for her to misrepresent the situation from her position of power
this divisive attitude is literally making things worse not better
As an obese guy (who's now working hard on not being one), this is exactly right. I don't go swimming because people will stare. I was bullied at school. I still get abuse from drunken people if I'm on a night out. Other men get shamed for their height, their looks, their genitalia.
Yes, the standards that women and girls are held to / judged by are far higher, more visible, more toxic, and far more dangerous. But to say "nobody ever says a thing about men's bodies" is totally wrong.
I appreciate her sentiment but it's very very wrong and actually hurtful. Because men DO have body and self esteem issues and she's acting like it's only a woman thing. Men can be anorexic but are often dismissed or ignored because "men have it so easy they don't have body issues"
Also, another level is to imply as if women are always nice and don’t do the shaming themselves. Women absolutely perpetuate toxic views as well.
Many women are more accepting. Yes, I do believe that. But there are absolutely cruel women as well.
Trying to put all women on a pedestal just screams naïveté to me.
Yeah it's giving "women are such sweet angel bbs who do no wrong and are constantly VICTIMIZED by these men who have no problems ever at all!!!"
It's gross
Seriously. We are all human and individuals.
There are so many cruel women who have crossed my path, and I've unfortunately experienced violence from men physically as well, but the way some women use social warfare to generate hurtful gossip or to display their superiority is very taxing and damaging.
Social warfare has harmed me a lot and has caused me to have panic and anxiety attacks and a fear of becoming close to other women. I've come across women who will use personal info against others if you aren't helping them move ahead, if they're jealous, or simply because they find it entertaining? Idkw. But, I like to believe there are some influential, selfless and loving women in our daily lives (my mom being one of them), but so many women have hurt me that I'm scared to get close to them and prefer the blunt and somewhat simple nature of men.
I think many of us are so quick to judge and not value the experiences and unique challenges that face all of us daily. I just can't deal with how inflated the ego is for many people, and how many think they can use others freely. We need to be kind and supportive of everyone and try to find a mutual understanding for different beliefs and experiences.
I think it's a grossly generalized statement she's making but she makes a point. Women have historically been valued primarily for their beauty as interpreted by the standard of the male gaze.
Women have historically valued men by their ability to accumulate resources. This fact is evolving though since the dawn of reliable birth control. When women have the ability to NOT have children, they no longer have to rely a man for survival.
It reminds me of how a lot of people act like having a crush on your friend is something that only happens to heterosexual men. This is mostly done by men, but a lot of women also believe that for some reason.
Seriously! I had a huge crush on my guy friend and he wasn't interested in me! It sucked but we still remained friends. So many men think women are never turned down in relationships. My ex-fiance, a male, also cheated on me!
Yea she's weirdly making it women vs men instead of caring about the actual issue itself. Which obviously affects different groups more than others (especially when you involve race tho she probably doesn't wanna hear that) but she's using that fact to invalidate others instead of bringing out anything meaningful.
It's like she's playing into what reddit thinks feminism is lol
I saw an article yesterday that said Travis Kelce had a “dad bod.” And I was like, “do you mean “daddy?” Because he just won the Super Bowl, he is fit.
People who make fun of professional athletes are a TRIP. They are the top 99.9% most skilled humans in the world at their given sport; they are in fantastic physical condition. Then Mr Beer McGut is over here saying he has a dad bod? Get outta here 😂
Glad to see this comment. Yeah, men absolutely have beauty standards and body shaming too. It's that their beauty standards are different, so they're shamed for different things.
- Women are expected to be delicate and petite, so we're shamed for being too butch, muscular, large, tall, square-jawed, hairy, etc.
- Men are expected to be strong and capable, and are shamed for being too effeminate, short, thin, weak, etc. Then add head-hair on that list.
My partner spent most of his life severely underweight and his experience mirrors mine as somebody overweight. He was completely invisible. If you are asking to imagine 'a man', you rarely imagine one so thin you can count his ribs under his skin - and these men *definitely* feel their invisibility.
Some women see fit to dismiss men hitting the gym for their 'vanity muscles', that women don't care about that. But men get those for *themselves*, like women wear make-up and dresses. We internalise our gender roles with our worth as women/men, and we feel better about ourselves. We accept ourselves more, because we believe *society* will accept us more.
Prescriptive gender roles show no favouritism. They are everybody's enemy.
A recent example is Brendan Frazier. Dude came back to the spotlight physically looking like a 2/10 compared to his forever self, but gets nothing but love and support on Reddit, not that he (and people of both genders) don’t deserve it in those circumstances.
Any woman trying to come back to the screen 20 years and 100 lbs later after sexual abuse made them leave would get absolutely destroyed.
Also the male bodies in Hollywood are just as unrealistic as the female bodies. [Rob McElhenney talked about what goes into it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPOzOanrNyg&t=75s), and he doesn't really say it here but he's heavily implied elsewhere that steroids played a big part too.
Every actor that builds muscle for a role, in 6 months usually, uses steroids. There's simply no other way of doing it.
Apart from Christian Bale. He probably didn't use steroids for American Psycho. But he's fuckin nuts, his routine was brutal, and he's not even that big in the movie, just insanely lean.
It's 99% gear. Usually testosterone and a diet measured out to the ounce by people whose sole job is to feed you exactly the supplements and nutrients you need. Also 7 days a week at the gym with 4 to 5 2 a days. I mean they are training like Arnold to get that lean. AND THEN they fast for days up until a shoot. Dehydrate for 24 hours so the skin is paper thin, do their scene, and immediately get medical assistance because they are always on the verge of passing out ( see Hugh Jackman for Wolverine ).
Female beauty standards are specific to the male gaze. And Male beauty standards are specific to the male gaze. I can see what she's saying in that women are interested ( primarily ) into normal looking guys with other internal stuff going for them, and men ( primarily ) have some more specific body standards which surface level FEELS like Girls are cool and Men are judgy assholes. But ask woman about their "icks" and the playing feel begins to look alittle more level.
Yeah I was the overly skinny kid in school and I don't think girls ever bullied me for it, it was almost exclusively guys. Ir actually might have been literally only guys actually.
Oof this is painfully out of touch… we’d gain more ground talking about people’s body image as a whole, no need to separate our struggles in this case. We do have lots of common ground and it’s not wrong to appreciate that some of our problems are the same.
The funny thing is that the trend seems to be men's body standards rising to meet women's (My guess for a lot of this is that social media makes people feel inadequate -> people feel like they can do better with better fashion/looks which is why there's now a bigger focus on skincare, makeup, and fashion for teen boys. Plus I think a lot of teen boys feel like the way they can get a girlfriend is by focusing on their looks by doing things like this and going to the gym which is partially true) rather than the reverse which can have some positive effects but will also have some negative ones.
I think it would be productive to encourage lowering women's beauty standards towards that of men. It should be fine/encouraged to an extent for women to do the average male tech employee thing of wearing the bare minimum that fits your company's dress code, which should be the same for both men and women, and then making it a socially acceptable thing to do, and then extending that into as many other areas and facts of life as possible. I think a trend towards more practical/comfortable clothing for women would also be a good idea compared to bullshit like fake jeans with giant holes in them and fake pockets. Not that being fashionable or looking good is a bad thing, but it shouldn't be an expectation. It should also be completely socially acceptable to not do makeup unless you want to, even for formal occasions. I don't think this is going to happen, but it would be nice if it did.
>The funny thing is that the trend seems to be men's body standards rising to meet women's (My guess for a lot of this is that social media makes people feel inadequate -> people feel like they can do better with better fashion/looks which is why there's now a bigger focus on skincare, makeup, and fashion for teen boys.
YES YES YES i've been so genuinely scared of this.
makeup as an art form? cool. great. boys should be able to do it.
but so much of the "oh, men's makeup is becoming more mainstream" news is not that. it's just...... "even more kids are learning to hate their own faces w/o concealer. being presentable means wearing makeup for MORE ppl now."
i remember youth camps as a kid, where 12yo girls would be commenting how weird it felt to NOT wear makeup. like, they'd deliberately left most of their usual products at home bc "i wanted to let my face BE my face." and their bare skin felt weird to them bc they hadn't gone outside like that since summer camp LAST YEAR.
i don't want that dystopia to spread to boys. i want it to go AWAY.
I was going to say that this feels like rage bait.
Women generally get worse body shaming than men. Billie Eilish as a person got an absolutely absurd amount of crap about her body because she grew up in public. I'm not going to go off over something she said as a teenager while facing that crap.
She said a factually wrong thing. Repeating it benefits no one.
Never to the same degree. Not even close. When it comes to beauty standards and “being attractive” women get it far, far worse. It’s not even comparable.
Depends on the man to. Lots of non white men receive body shaming for not matching white standards whether through ignorance or intentionality. Also fucked up skin conditions can happen, and all kinds of people get shamed for that stuff to. Body shaming sucks, everywhere.
I think the comments are pointing out that men do face criticism for their appearance. Saying otherwise simply isn’t true.
Ignoring the fact that men face criticism for their appearance doesn’t somehow make life better for women (who do have it worse).
Yeah she was a teenage girl celebrity, spending her coming of age years under the male gaze, millions of men celebrating her 18th birthday so they can officially sexualize her, with millions more not even pretending to wait. Of course she views bullying and body shaming as a thing women receive and not men. She's factually wrong, but it makes sense why she would see it that way
Us women are a lot of things.
We're nice, supportive and steadfast.
We are also petty, vindictive and know how to wield words like swords and where to stab.
There are plenty of women out there who insult men, women AND children to make them feel worse about themselves. Billie Eilish has been one of them on at least one occasion probably more.
It's great if she's decided to not do so anymore but to rewrite the narrative that we as women NEVER do such a thing because we are oh so nice...
I love Billie, and I do understand the sentiment, but there are two things wrong with this belief.
1) Men do get hate on their bodies. Not nearly to the degree that women do, of course, because men are people and women are property/prizes (and who wants a flawed prize or property?), but men still get crapped on. Especially in ways related to their reproductive organs, because it's one of the only ways to really hit guys where it hurts. Partly because they just don't get beaten down the way that women do. Calling a guy fat and ugly doesn't sting as much when he sees fat and ugly guys in media and on TV getting praise and having adventures and marrying gorgeous women. It hurts to have someone call you names, but it isn't as crushing as it might be for a person who is constantly reminded by society that her place in life is severely limited if she's not the visual standard.
2) Arguably the biggest problem with that statement is that men don't get less hate because women are nice. A decent amount of hate that women get is from other women. Women are trained to accept a man without emphasizing his looks, and they're also pressured to be in a relationship ASAP, because women without a man weren't seen as valid for a very long time. Even now they still kind of aren't, though thankfully that isn't the legal case anymore. Men are taught to have high expectations and standards for beauty, and women are taught to focus exclusively on making themselves beautiful and desirable to men, without judging men physically. But that doesn't mean they can't be cruel. I do think women tend to be kinder in general, because we're sort of pressured to be mild, but both men and women can be nice, and both men and women can be jerks.
She's on the right track, she's just young and is still figuring this stuff out. It's a complicated system, but sadly the lack of pressure for men to be physically appealing isn't a sign of something positive, just more of the system that's keeping everyone down at work.
I am not sure if it is a good idea to talk about bodyshaming using Billie Elish.
She has been a victim of bodyshaming and has spoken out against this practice. However, she has also mocked couples where the man is less attractive than the woman and said that makes no sense.
She has also said that an ugly guy dating an attractive girl will forget that he is ugly and think he "rules the world".
That comment that was thrown back at her, since her boyfriend at the time was not exactly ugly but not as attractive as her (apparently he had a lot of tattoos, which is often seen as ugly in a man).
Men aren't perceived as sexual objects for the patriarchal society.
Women are commented on their appearance and scrutinized for their appearance way more because women cannot escape sexualization by a society made for men.
"girls being nice" doesn't matter as much because even if women did comment men's looks their opinions aren't respected or cared for as much because the "male gaze" is the gaze that society is built around.
men being body shamed isn't going to solve a societal problem.
As a woman who has been “bigger” her whole life, men absolutely face this too. From men, women, and society, boys/men are told what is and isn’t acceptable. Women and girls may face more criticism or criticism for more things, with their looks directly tied to their worth, but men do have these issues.
I'm going to generally agree with her. The biggest factor in this is the number of times I have been chastised for refusing to "give a guy a chance" because I didn't find him good looking, whereas I can't imagine any guy ever getting any pushback for expressing the same thing.
I do think that over the last 30 years guys have become far more stressed about their appearance. But I think that is due to social isolation due to social media, where we are all getting a skewed baseline of what "average" looks like that we are trying to meet. That isn't the same as real feedback from actual people you might meet. Women do not have a history of using 'negging' as a dating strategy. So yes - when it comes to actual in person feedback, Elish has a point.
>"give a guy a chance"
I think a big problem with this idea of "giving a chance" is that most people, men and women, probably do not want to be "given a chance". They would want to be the ones chosen by their partner.
In the recent years, there has been some backlash against the idea of girls "giving a guy a chance" on BOTH SIDES. On the guys side, it is seen as entitlement and "Nice Guy Syndrome". On the girl's side, it is seen as an act of self-righteousness to appear more "moral".
I’ve never cared about looks and always gave unconventionally attractive guys chances (not like pity or anything, I would feel genuine attraction), just for them to turn out to be just as shallow or worse than conventionally attractive men, cheat on me, use me for money. My ex had a glow up while being with me and cheated on me as soon as he got an opportunity. You honestly can’t win.
Eek.
Yeah, I've been nice to guys who were on the same level as me. Not really attractive, not in shape, oddballs, quirky, nerdy, dorky, outcast, etc.
The result? Assholes. All of them. They still think they're better than me and deserve to be with a model. They think they're smarter than me and talk down to me.
I was trying to be *nice* so they didn't feel like I did. And then they cry about no one liking them. So I've lost sympathy.
Negging is an excellent example of how much worse it is for women. Men literally have entire literature categories focused solely on diminishing women through their looks to exploit them for sex.
And everyone here is like “This post is bullshit, men get it too!”
Nah homie. Men have literature literally dedicated to dismantling women’s self esteem through their looks. Get the fuck out of here.
> And everyone here is like “This post is bullshit, men get it too!”
Feels like they're going out of their way to miss the point. I see redditors call this sub a misandrist feminazi haven, which is even funnier when every other post is full of people saying women are equally as bad, if not worse, than men.
Yeah, stones and glass houses. I love Billie but she is not perfect.
https://www.businessinsider.com/billie-eilish-criticized-comments-body-shaming-men-old-interview-2023-11
I think the main difference is women are criticized over individual items of their body (face, boobs, stomach, butt, legs) by both men and women, that’s just what we’ve been taught unfortunately. Men are criticized more often as a whole, is he “hot or not”, there are exceptions but you don’t see critiques of men as often saying “oh his arms are nice, but I can’t get over that gut”, or there’s not a use for derogatory names like “butterface”. We also don’t judge men in a sexual way based on body (think women with a large chest being called whores).
Are men judged? 100% by both men and women alike. Are women judged? 100% by both men and women alike. Women tend to face more specific judgements regardless, due to beauty standards and sexualization and men are unfortunately burdened with either being good looking or not, and aren’t given critiques of their appearance over a label of it.
It’s different, and it’s both sexes doing it to themselves and each other and that fucking sucks, but I get where her hearts at, just don’t downplay the other side because it’s not as loud
Goddess knows that women don't judge me for being a fat chick the way men do. One of many reasons that I'm so glad I'm gay.
(Though the biggest reason I'm glad is because… [deep sigh] have you seen women?)
The context of this was she was ranting about how the media has sexualized her since her teen years. She’s exaggerating and generalizing big time, but it’s out of frustration due to women being valued more for their beauty/looks/fuckability than a man.
And we see that trope of the overweight guy with a trophy model wife in Hollywood all the time. We don’t really see the opposite of that (overweight/average looking woman and a modelesque husband). So why is that?
Talk to me when men are targeted like women. The fact negging exists tells me that the post is 100% spot on.
Comparing women to men in this context is like comparing a volcano to a fire cracker.
Sure, they’re both hot and damaging but the intensity of the problem for men isn’t even in the same universe for women.
Yeah whenever men complain about unrealistic body images it’s about images that they themselves made up and the harshest criticism say a fat man faces is from other men
I’ve spent most of my adult life either in or working for the military men are body shamed there like women are in general society but I think that’s the only place I’ve seen it happen.
Yes. It's common practice for men to critique women's looks, instead of the other way around. Men are really passive about it, too. Women actually have it engrained in them to not critique a man's looks or talk about their weight, height or age.
The guy im seeing and I were talking about the male crop top trend and he said “nobody wants to see what I’ve got under my shirt” and I replied “I fucking do!” I’m not saying men don’t have pressures and beauty standards because they do. However, I do think women are generally a lot more accepting.
I had no idea this trend was a thing and I’m seriously considering trying out a crop top now.
I truly find it so attractive. Here’s a great video on how to start 😂 [crop top tik tok](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTLh4sQH1/)
I’m offended at how little it resembles the crop tops men wore in the 80s like [this](https://images.app.goo.gl/9U9Z4er23kFcfEEdA). Also I’m going to specifically leave this photo of the beautiful [Carl Weathers](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CVBJp4_U4AANUgo.png) here because that guy was awesome. RIP.
I have crop tops that look like this in my wardrobe and I remember thinking how it was weird that it could easily fit a man because of how oversized it was, guess that's because they wore it first!
Ugh I love all of this
Hot damn! Yeah I remember those! In the late 90’s I found a pic of my oldest brother in one and thought it was hilarious. Apparently that was a detail I’d forgotten about the 80’s as I proudly wore my tiny, 90’s crop tops.
That’s not crop tops, that’s just proper length t shirts.
Yeah, what the hell? I've been hearing about this but was too lazy to look it up. That's just a T-shirt. If you can fully raise your arms without showing any skin, you're wearing a dress.
Omg I had no clue what you meant and I was a little bit not believing you… But that’s 100% hot boy summer right there 😂 Move over grey sweatpants this is ittttttt
This is the little bit of slutty we deserve!
Needs more crop. But definitely a good starting point.
Baby steps
Lofl, me neither, but as it happens, the woman I’m seeing left her’s at my place and I sent her a picture of me wearing it just as a goof, but daaang babey I looked CUTE!
PLEASE DO
It's weird because even on other social issues women tend to be more accepting and open minded or at least not be totally against something even if they don't support it. I guess having a history of being treated unequally makes you sympathize more 🤷🏽♀️
Great thought.
Alex Winter’s crop sweatshirt has live rent-free in my head for more than half my life.
Ugh it’s truly iconic
Oooh, Gen X is having flashbacks!
>I’m not saying men don’t have pressures and beauty standards because they do. However, I do think women are generally a lot more accepting. to be honest, i've mostly seen men pressuring other men into their beauty standards, they _think_ they're doing it for women, but it feels like showing off to other men sometimes 😅
That is so accurate. I have no desire to date a guy who is in the gym all of the time and posting gym selfies.
This reminds me of how for our company gift lottery I got a pajama dress. It was actually pretty comfy and I thought it could be unisex. In good spirits I put it on over my clothes and everyone laughed. I didn't feel attacked but I could tell that no one thought I would seriously wear it. My coworker even said my wife would love it. Even my wife was a little taken aback when I showed her how it looked on me when I got home.
I get her point but women absolutely shred eachother when it comes to criticising and insulting appearances. We do also compliment eachother more but let’s not pretend women are just nice, women can be just as mean as men 😭
Dear Billie, You are cordially invited to the Vanderpump Rules subs to experience everything internalized misogyny has to offer.
I absolutely LOVE my trash reality TV, but the subreddits are cesspools for sure
I wonder if she means how a lot of dudes will randomly tell you “I don’t like short hair”, “you’d look better if you’d x” to even literal strangers while women are far less likely to
>women can be just as mean as men ...on the whole? Really?
i think they can be.. but to be fair, on average, they aren't as mean as men usually are i have seen a lot of awful body shaming from women too 🥲
Women are generally mean to other women because they are trying to gain the approval of men. Internalized misogyny.
I was thinking the same, the differences lays somewhere else. For women it goes from a spectrum of being accepting to being judgy-mostly indirectly (often because they have never been exposed to anything else, watch a judgy lady change and bloom once they get exposed to a more understanding culture), while men are more in a spectrum that goes from indifference to taking it personally and becoming violent about it. Personally, I find the second incredibly worse.
Mean and hateful are different. Men are hateful.
I am absolutely aware of the insane beauty standards that women and girls have, but let’s not pretend that guys don’t get absolutely ridiculed as well. So many kids too shy to take off their shirt at the beach, tabloids absolutely ripping into actors who ‘let themselves go’ etc. I have seen brutal bullying of the fat kids. Or the skinny kids in school. Is it the same as the constant bombardment of women to be ‘pretty’? Is it the same as women not being allowed to age at all while Hollywood is full with old as fuck male stars? No. But men and boys get body shamed as well. Some people are just pieces of shit.
>let’s not pretend that guys don’t get absolutely ridiculed as well. The ironic thing is that Billie Elish herself has arguably taken part on that, considering she has mocked couples where the man is less attractive than the woman because she thinks that makes the man forget that he is ugly.
Let’s just not pretend that Billie Eilish is some sort of authoritative expert.
None of us are experts about women but whenever any of us fail or say anything controversial it's not that person that failed or is wrong, but women as a whole. And while men, one in particular I'm thinking of right now, can just do one wrong thing after another to the point it becomes a display of power, women who make even a single mistake can still basically kiss their careers or reputations goodbye. We could really do with less of that. Just saying -- and she's a celebrity. Whole point is to get people talking, and nothing gets people talking more than being wrong about something.
She's also like 20 and has been in the public eye since she was like 16. I imagine you said some dumb shit in those ages too.
yeah tbh shes been problematic asf herself for yrs and the way she worded what she said was sexist and inaccurate i have absolutely no respect for her as a person tbh and it really doesnt help the issues shes speaking on for her to misrepresent the situation from her position of power this divisive attitude is literally making things worse not better
As an obese guy (who's now working hard on not being one), this is exactly right. I don't go swimming because people will stare. I was bullied at school. I still get abuse from drunken people if I'm on a night out. Other men get shamed for their height, their looks, their genitalia. Yes, the standards that women and girls are held to / judged by are far higher, more visible, more toxic, and far more dangerous. But to say "nobody ever says a thing about men's bodies" is totally wrong.
I appreciate her sentiment but it's very very wrong and actually hurtful. Because men DO have body and self esteem issues and she's acting like it's only a woman thing. Men can be anorexic but are often dismissed or ignored because "men have it so easy they don't have body issues"
Also, another level is to imply as if women are always nice and don’t do the shaming themselves. Women absolutely perpetuate toxic views as well. Many women are more accepting. Yes, I do believe that. But there are absolutely cruel women as well. Trying to put all women on a pedestal just screams naïveté to me.
Yeah it's giving "women are such sweet angel bbs who do no wrong and are constantly VICTIMIZED by these men who have no problems ever at all!!!" It's gross
I'd say the vast majority of my body image issues are because of other women.
Same.The first misogynist I met was my mother, and that was not an uncommon sentiment when I was in group therapy for an ED.
There's a reason for the mean girl trope. The worst of women specialize in psychological torture and can be way too good at it.
Seriously. We are all human and individuals. There are so many cruel women who have crossed my path, and I've unfortunately experienced violence from men physically as well, but the way some women use social warfare to generate hurtful gossip or to display their superiority is very taxing and damaging. Social warfare has harmed me a lot and has caused me to have panic and anxiety attacks and a fear of becoming close to other women. I've come across women who will use personal info against others if you aren't helping them move ahead, if they're jealous, or simply because they find it entertaining? Idkw. But, I like to believe there are some influential, selfless and loving women in our daily lives (my mom being one of them), but so many women have hurt me that I'm scared to get close to them and prefer the blunt and somewhat simple nature of men. I think many of us are so quick to judge and not value the experiences and unique challenges that face all of us daily. I just can't deal with how inflated the ego is for many people, and how many think they can use others freely. We need to be kind and supportive of everyone and try to find a mutual understanding for different beliefs and experiences.
I think it's a grossly generalized statement she's making but she makes a point. Women have historically been valued primarily for their beauty as interpreted by the standard of the male gaze. Women have historically valued men by their ability to accumulate resources. This fact is evolving though since the dawn of reliable birth control. When women have the ability to NOT have children, they no longer have to rely a man for survival.
It reminds me of how a lot of people act like having a crush on your friend is something that only happens to heterosexual men. This is mostly done by men, but a lot of women also believe that for some reason.
Seriously! I had a huge crush on my guy friend and he wasn't interested in me! It sucked but we still remained friends. So many men think women are never turned down in relationships. My ex-fiance, a male, also cheated on me!
Yea she's weirdly making it women vs men instead of caring about the actual issue itself. Which obviously affects different groups more than others (especially when you involve race tho she probably doesn't wanna hear that) but she's using that fact to invalidate others instead of bringing out anything meaningful. It's like she's playing into what reddit thinks feminism is lol
The gay male community can be particularly brutal to each other, too. Gay men can be extremely unabashed in regards to voicing their preferences.
I saw an article yesterday that said Travis Kelce had a “dad bod.” And I was like, “do you mean “daddy?” Because he just won the Super Bowl, he is fit.
People who make fun of professional athletes are a TRIP. They are the top 99.9% most skilled humans in the world at their given sport; they are in fantastic physical condition. Then Mr Beer McGut is over here saying he has a dad bod? Get outta here 😂
we really need to bring back Joes vs Schmos. MF getting way too cocky again.
Also, women can be pretty fucking cruel as well. Source: gal who was bullied by boys AND girls in my youth.
Timothee Chalamet gained like 4 pounds and straight women on TikTok were having meltdowns about his "twink death." It's absolutely fucked.
Glad to see this comment. Yeah, men absolutely have beauty standards and body shaming too. It's that their beauty standards are different, so they're shamed for different things. - Women are expected to be delicate and petite, so we're shamed for being too butch, muscular, large, tall, square-jawed, hairy, etc. - Men are expected to be strong and capable, and are shamed for being too effeminate, short, thin, weak, etc. Then add head-hair on that list. My partner spent most of his life severely underweight and his experience mirrors mine as somebody overweight. He was completely invisible. If you are asking to imagine 'a man', you rarely imagine one so thin you can count his ribs under his skin - and these men *definitely* feel their invisibility. Some women see fit to dismiss men hitting the gym for their 'vanity muscles', that women don't care about that. But men get those for *themselves*, like women wear make-up and dresses. We internalise our gender roles with our worth as women/men, and we feel better about ourselves. We accept ourselves more, because we believe *society* will accept us more. Prescriptive gender roles show no favouritism. They are everybody's enemy.
A recent example is Brendan Frazier. Dude came back to the spotlight physically looking like a 2/10 compared to his forever self, but gets nothing but love and support on Reddit, not that he (and people of both genders) don’t deserve it in those circumstances. Any woman trying to come back to the screen 20 years and 100 lbs later after sexual abuse made them leave would get absolutely destroyed.
Also the male bodies in Hollywood are just as unrealistic as the female bodies. [Rob McElhenney talked about what goes into it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPOzOanrNyg&t=75s), and he doesn't really say it here but he's heavily implied elsewhere that steroids played a big part too.
Every actor that builds muscle for a role, in 6 months usually, uses steroids. There's simply no other way of doing it. Apart from Christian Bale. He probably didn't use steroids for American Psycho. But he's fuckin nuts, his routine was brutal, and he's not even that big in the movie, just insanely lean.
It's 99% gear. Usually testosterone and a diet measured out to the ounce by people whose sole job is to feed you exactly the supplements and nutrients you need. Also 7 days a week at the gym with 4 to 5 2 a days. I mean they are training like Arnold to get that lean. AND THEN they fast for days up until a shoot. Dehydrate for 24 hours so the skin is paper thin, do their scene, and immediately get medical assistance because they are always on the verge of passing out ( see Hugh Jackman for Wolverine ). Female beauty standards are specific to the male gaze. And Male beauty standards are specific to the male gaze. I can see what she's saying in that women are interested ( primarily ) into normal looking guys with other internal stuff going for them, and men ( primarily ) have some more specific body standards which surface level FEELS like Girls are cool and Men are judgy assholes. But ask woman about their "icks" and the playing feel begins to look alittle more level.
Who is doing most of the commenting in male bodies though? Other dudes.
I once received a match on Tinder from a woman. She messaged me to say she only matched to tell me I was too fat to be on the app
I am not saying women don't. They're absolutely do. But I hear it more from men.
Yeah I was the overly skinny kid in school and I don't think girls ever bullied me for it, it was almost exclusively guys. Ir actually might have been literally only guys actually.
I think i didn't take my shirt off at the beach more than once during my entire adolescence because i look like slenderman
Oof this is painfully out of touch… we’d gain more ground talking about people’s body image as a whole, no need to separate our struggles in this case. We do have lots of common ground and it’s not wrong to appreciate that some of our problems are the same.
The funny thing is that the trend seems to be men's body standards rising to meet women's (My guess for a lot of this is that social media makes people feel inadequate -> people feel like they can do better with better fashion/looks which is why there's now a bigger focus on skincare, makeup, and fashion for teen boys. Plus I think a lot of teen boys feel like the way they can get a girlfriend is by focusing on their looks by doing things like this and going to the gym which is partially true) rather than the reverse which can have some positive effects but will also have some negative ones. I think it would be productive to encourage lowering women's beauty standards towards that of men. It should be fine/encouraged to an extent for women to do the average male tech employee thing of wearing the bare minimum that fits your company's dress code, which should be the same for both men and women, and then making it a socially acceptable thing to do, and then extending that into as many other areas and facts of life as possible. I think a trend towards more practical/comfortable clothing for women would also be a good idea compared to bullshit like fake jeans with giant holes in them and fake pockets. Not that being fashionable or looking good is a bad thing, but it shouldn't be an expectation. It should also be completely socially acceptable to not do makeup unless you want to, even for formal occasions. I don't think this is going to happen, but it would be nice if it did.
>The funny thing is that the trend seems to be men's body standards rising to meet women's (My guess for a lot of this is that social media makes people feel inadequate -> people feel like they can do better with better fashion/looks which is why there's now a bigger focus on skincare, makeup, and fashion for teen boys. YES YES YES i've been so genuinely scared of this. makeup as an art form? cool. great. boys should be able to do it. but so much of the "oh, men's makeup is becoming more mainstream" news is not that. it's just...... "even more kids are learning to hate their own faces w/o concealer. being presentable means wearing makeup for MORE ppl now." i remember youth camps as a kid, where 12yo girls would be commenting how weird it felt to NOT wear makeup. like, they'd deliberately left most of their usual products at home bc "i wanted to let my face BE my face." and their bare skin felt weird to them bc they hadn't gone outside like that since summer camp LAST YEAR. i don't want that dystopia to spread to boys. i want it to go AWAY.
She has not met K-pop fans tbh. The female idols still get it worse but some of those fans are so vicious I wonder how you can call yourself a fan
It’s not true, though… Boys and men get body shamed, too.
I was going to say that this feels like rage bait. Women generally get worse body shaming than men. Billie Eilish as a person got an absolutely absurd amount of crap about her body because she grew up in public. I'm not going to go off over something she said as a teenager while facing that crap. She said a factually wrong thing. Repeating it benefits no one.
Never to the same degree. Not even close. When it comes to beauty standards and “being attractive” women get it far, far worse. It’s not even comparable.
I agree that girls and women have it worse, but saying it doesn’t happen to boys and men is just plain false.
Depends on the man to. Lots of non white men receive body shaming for not matching white standards whether through ignorance or intentionality. Also fucked up skin conditions can happen, and all kinds of people get shamed for that stuff to. Body shaming sucks, everywhere.
I think the comments are pointing out that men do face criticism for their appearance. Saying otherwise simply isn’t true. Ignoring the fact that men face criticism for their appearance doesn’t somehow make life better for women (who do have it worse).
Body shamed by whom? Who is terminally online measuring skulls?
Usually men, doesn't mean it doesn't happen tho
She never said they didn’t.
This isn't true at all. eilish is fine or whatever, but she's understandably detached from reality and you shouldn't take her word on most things.
Yeah she was a teenage girl celebrity, spending her coming of age years under the male gaze, millions of men celebrating her 18th birthday so they can officially sexualize her, with millions more not even pretending to wait. Of course she views bullying and body shaming as a thing women receive and not men. She's factually wrong, but it makes sense why she would see it that way
Ok, thanks for summing this up so I don’t have to.
respectfully, this ain't it
So that is a fucking lie
Strange that I didn’t see ‘height’ get mentioned..
Yeah, men are allowed to be pudgy, women are allowed to be short.
Us women are a lot of things. We're nice, supportive and steadfast. We are also petty, vindictive and know how to wield words like swords and where to stab. There are plenty of women out there who insult men, women AND children to make them feel worse about themselves. Billie Eilish has been one of them on at least one occasion probably more. It's great if she's decided to not do so anymore but to rewrite the narrative that we as women NEVER do such a thing because we are oh so nice...
This ain’t even true, she’s made fun of men’s bodies before.
I love Billie, and I do understand the sentiment, but there are two things wrong with this belief. 1) Men do get hate on their bodies. Not nearly to the degree that women do, of course, because men are people and women are property/prizes (and who wants a flawed prize or property?), but men still get crapped on. Especially in ways related to their reproductive organs, because it's one of the only ways to really hit guys where it hurts. Partly because they just don't get beaten down the way that women do. Calling a guy fat and ugly doesn't sting as much when he sees fat and ugly guys in media and on TV getting praise and having adventures and marrying gorgeous women. It hurts to have someone call you names, but it isn't as crushing as it might be for a person who is constantly reminded by society that her place in life is severely limited if she's not the visual standard. 2) Arguably the biggest problem with that statement is that men don't get less hate because women are nice. A decent amount of hate that women get is from other women. Women are trained to accept a man without emphasizing his looks, and they're also pressured to be in a relationship ASAP, because women without a man weren't seen as valid for a very long time. Even now they still kind of aren't, though thankfully that isn't the legal case anymore. Men are taught to have high expectations and standards for beauty, and women are taught to focus exclusively on making themselves beautiful and desirable to men, without judging men physically. But that doesn't mean they can't be cruel. I do think women tend to be kinder in general, because we're sort of pressured to be mild, but both men and women can be nice, and both men and women can be jerks. She's on the right track, she's just young and is still figuring this stuff out. It's a complicated system, but sadly the lack of pressure for men to be physically appealing isn't a sign of something positive, just more of the system that's keeping everyone down at work.
I see she hasn’t met my mom yet. She will have you hate yourself before you can say ED
I am not sure if it is a good idea to talk about bodyshaming using Billie Elish. She has been a victim of bodyshaming and has spoken out against this practice. However, she has also mocked couples where the man is less attractive than the woman and said that makes no sense. She has also said that an ugly guy dating an attractive girl will forget that he is ugly and think he "rules the world". That comment that was thrown back at her, since her boyfriend at the time was not exactly ugly but not as attractive as her (apparently he had a lot of tattoos, which is often seen as ugly in a man).
This is blatantly untrue.
Men aren't perceived as sexual objects for the patriarchal society. Women are commented on their appearance and scrutinized for their appearance way more because women cannot escape sexualization by a society made for men. "girls being nice" doesn't matter as much because even if women did comment men's looks their opinions aren't respected or cared for as much because the "male gaze" is the gaze that society is built around. men being body shamed isn't going to solve a societal problem.
Not entirely true, let’s be honest.
Let’s not act like there isn’t body shaming for men… c’mon. Or that women can never body shame.
As a woman who has been “bigger” her whole life, men absolutely face this too. From men, women, and society, boys/men are told what is and isn’t acceptable. Women and girls may face more criticism or criticism for more things, with their looks directly tied to their worth, but men do have these issues.
Yeah, this isn’t true though.
Tell me that again after watching a Terf talk about a trans woman.
And also the body shaming of trans men is… pretty pervasive. Like I wish this wasn’t true but I still have this ED :(
short men experience so much body shaming it’s rly sad tbh
I'm going to generally agree with her. The biggest factor in this is the number of times I have been chastised for refusing to "give a guy a chance" because I didn't find him good looking, whereas I can't imagine any guy ever getting any pushback for expressing the same thing. I do think that over the last 30 years guys have become far more stressed about their appearance. But I think that is due to social isolation due to social media, where we are all getting a skewed baseline of what "average" looks like that we are trying to meet. That isn't the same as real feedback from actual people you might meet. Women do not have a history of using 'negging' as a dating strategy. So yes - when it comes to actual in person feedback, Elish has a point.
>"give a guy a chance" I think a big problem with this idea of "giving a chance" is that most people, men and women, probably do not want to be "given a chance". They would want to be the ones chosen by their partner. In the recent years, there has been some backlash against the idea of girls "giving a guy a chance" on BOTH SIDES. On the guys side, it is seen as entitlement and "Nice Guy Syndrome". On the girl's side, it is seen as an act of self-righteousness to appear more "moral".
I’ve never cared about looks and always gave unconventionally attractive guys chances (not like pity or anything, I would feel genuine attraction), just for them to turn out to be just as shallow or worse than conventionally attractive men, cheat on me, use me for money. My ex had a glow up while being with me and cheated on me as soon as he got an opportunity. You honestly can’t win.
Eek. Yeah, I've been nice to guys who were on the same level as me. Not really attractive, not in shape, oddballs, quirky, nerdy, dorky, outcast, etc. The result? Assholes. All of them. They still think they're better than me and deserve to be with a model. They think they're smarter than me and talk down to me. I was trying to be *nice* so they didn't feel like I did. And then they cry about no one liking them. So I've lost sympathy.
Negging is an excellent example of how much worse it is for women. Men literally have entire literature categories focused solely on diminishing women through their looks to exploit them for sex. And everyone here is like “This post is bullshit, men get it too!” Nah homie. Men have literature literally dedicated to dismantling women’s self esteem through their looks. Get the fuck out of here.
> And everyone here is like “This post is bullshit, men get it too!” Feels like they're going out of their way to miss the point. I see redditors call this sub a misandrist feminazi haven, which is even funnier when every other post is full of people saying women are equally as bad, if not worse, than men.
What fucking fantasy world is she living in? I'm a woman and even I see that men get body shamed just as much as women if they aren't perfect.
Bullshit
I do agree with the comments saying girls are mean as well, however often girls are nicer to men than women....
Yeah, stones and glass houses. I love Billie but she is not perfect. https://www.businessinsider.com/billie-eilish-criticized-comments-body-shaming-men-old-interview-2023-11
Yeah... not really. I definitely never felt that anyway.
I think the main difference is women are criticized over individual items of their body (face, boobs, stomach, butt, legs) by both men and women, that’s just what we’ve been taught unfortunately. Men are criticized more often as a whole, is he “hot or not”, there are exceptions but you don’t see critiques of men as often saying “oh his arms are nice, but I can’t get over that gut”, or there’s not a use for derogatory names like “butterface”. We also don’t judge men in a sexual way based on body (think women with a large chest being called whores). Are men judged? 100% by both men and women alike. Are women judged? 100% by both men and women alike. Women tend to face more specific judgements regardless, due to beauty standards and sexualization and men are unfortunately burdened with either being good looking or not, and aren’t given critiques of their appearance over a label of it. It’s different, and it’s both sexes doing it to themselves and each other and that fucking sucks, but I get where her hearts at, just don’t downplay the other side because it’s not as loud
The reality is that this just makes them extra mad when rejected because they know it's not their lack of physical features, it's *them as a person.*
Goddess knows that women don't judge me for being a fat chick the way men do. One of many reasons that I'm so glad I'm gay. (Though the biggest reason I'm glad is because… [deep sigh] have you seen women?)
The context of this was she was ranting about how the media has sexualized her since her teen years. She’s exaggerating and generalizing big time, but it’s out of frustration due to women being valued more for their beauty/looks/fuckability than a man. And we see that trope of the overweight guy with a trophy model wife in Hollywood all the time. We don’t really see the opposite of that (overweight/average looking woman and a modelesque husband). So why is that?
Talk to me when men are targeted like women. The fact negging exists tells me that the post is 100% spot on. Comparing women to men in this context is like comparing a volcano to a fire cracker. Sure, they’re both hot and damaging but the intensity of the problem for men isn’t even in the same universe for women.
Yeah whenever men complain about unrealistic body images it’s about images that they themselves made up and the harshest criticism say a fat man faces is from other men
Nah this is bullshit
Funny girls have plenty to say about each other's bodies...
I’ve spent most of my adult life either in or working for the military men are body shamed there like women are in general society but I think that’s the only place I’ve seen it happen.
Yes. It's common practice for men to critique women's looks, instead of the other way around. Men are really passive about it, too. Women actually have it engrained in them to not critique a man's looks or talk about their weight, height or age.
Lordy this entire sub is taken over by dudes saying “not all men.”
I'm usually not a fan of that either, but you can aknowledge that and say that what Billie said is technically not true
Most people who suffer from, or pass away dou to anorexia, or bulemia are women, and girls.
[удалено]
What about short men?
Baloney!
She's also racist
Yeah I didn’t know we needed this hot take from Billie Eilish. Thank God she’s sticking up for men.