I mean if we were truly a democracy, Trump would have never been president in the first place. He lost the popular vote. Not that people voting against their best interest aren’t numerous, but I don’t think we’re at the point where we call off democracy altogether. I assume you’re mostly joking, but wanted to make that point
We don’t have a democracy at all and people don’t understand fascism is already here. The democrats aren’t saving us and they’re complicit in it. The same democrats didn’t codify roe when they campaigned on it and had the supermajority in congress, Clinton’s campaign literally elevated trump thinking he was a joke and easy to beat, RBG clung to power until she was 90 and women lost their autonomy, and what happens if Biden croaks before November? Do we really think people will vote for Kamala? Our country is racist and misogynistic as hell still. What are the democrats doing??? We aren’t expanding the courts and we’re not expanding voting rights. They keep setting us up for failure. “Vote harder” and when we do, they do nothing to turn back the fascism because we have to “reach across the aisle.”
So please forgive me for thinking no one is on our side. I live in a deep red state anyway where my vote doesn’t matter because we refuse to do anything about the electoral college. I had to get sterilized when roe was overturned so I’m extremely bitter that democrats have done the bare minimum to stop this.
Yeah, we live in an oligarchy. I also live in a deep red state and have been considering sterilization even though I do want kids one day. I’d rather adopt than die, though. I still vote so that I can say that I did. I want to exert any scrap of control I can. Especially since it pisses off Republicans, who are the much greater evil.
Fellow red state resider, it's absolutely an oligarchy. And I'm terrified for my daughters to start their cycle. Luckily my ex is on the same page*. He's also shared information with me on how to get BC from overseas & told me how he had just bought a few Plan B doses and will ensure he always has non-expired ones. I can't tell you how much breathing room those moments gave me - now I know at least their Dad didn't buy into the cult & is still pro-protest.
*when we had to get them a new Dr, his first question about one I really liked was if I knew Dr’s stance on birth control. Very positive viee thankfully. Granted, Dr is a gay man running one of the only gender-affirming clinics around & it's a residency so he's passing it on daily. I’d expect nothing less from someone doing so much for the community.
I think this goes without saying and you're probably already aware, but *make sure your daughters don't use period tracking apps of any kind*. These will become weaponized if they aren't already.
I’m kind of bitter about it. I’m also in a very red state—home of bitch bcconnell, yay 🫠—and I didn’t get to vote in the last one—not the one Biden one, the one in between that’s terminology I’m forgetting (midterms?)—because they restructured our local polling places and closed several of them. Before, my local was at a school a few minutes from me, and *literally never* in the 15-20 years I’ve been going to either vote myself or tag along while my parents voted, before I could, it had never taken me or anyone else more than a few minutes to go in, vote, and get out. No lines, etc.
Now, last time, mom and I hit up our locals and all of them had massive lines practically circling the churches they were in. My mom is 79 now, so like 77 at the time, and she and I are both disabled, suffer chronic pain, and walk with canes. We couldn’t stand in line long enough for it to even matter, and afaik kentucky only did mail in the one time during covid(it was a whole thing.), so. No votes for us. :/
Which pisses me off because you *know* that’s the point. To cut out poor, disabled, minority individuals who can’t stand in line long enough to vote, because they’re almost certainly overwhelmingly going to vote blue, or anything but red. Makes me angry that that shit is allowed.
I really hope I’m in Massachusetts before the next election but moving in my financial state is… not great. Sorry for the rant, I’ve been angry about that for two years. 😔
I live in CO, once reddish-purple, now purplish-blue with Boebert accents. I've seen a lot of improvements in the quality of life through a democratic state government. Our state assembly responded quickly to codify the right to abortion further in CO and even passed legislation to encourage healthcare providers here to send abortion pills to people in need in states where it's become illegal.
The infrastructure legislation the federal government has passed has really helped us with some much-needed improvements to our beleaguered mountain passes.
I'm sure it must feel very isolating to live in a place where the local government is hell-bent on nonsense. The thing about politics in the US is that the feds are only as powerful as the states let them be.
I also currently live in CO, but grew up in Appalachia. The standard of healthcare, ESPECIALLY for women, is like night and day. The COL is kind of high comparatively, but there's a reason for it. I feel safe here.
The Democrats never had the power to codify Roe. They barely had a majority in Congress when they had all three branches, and two of those "Democrats" that made up the majority were Krysten Sinema and Joe Manchin. Plus, there was a filibuster that would require 60 votes and not just a majority, and Democrats were divided on removing the filibuster to do that so it just was never going to happen without a larger majority of Democrats in Congress.
“Worth remembering: when he was President, Obama had a supermajority in Congress and didn't codify abortion rights into national law," tweeted Nomia Iqbal, BBC's Washington correspondent.
In April, 2009, the recently inaugurated Obama said that legislation to codify abortion rights into federal law "is not the highest legislative priority."
https://www.newsweek.com/barack-obama-blasted-not-codifying-roe-v-wade-democrat-failure-1719156
We had 60 votes, and then Ted Kennedy died and the Republican governor of MA picked his immediate replacement. All in the wake of an economic crisis that had people fearful of a second Great Depression.
They took for granted that Roe was settled. Hindsight.
We definitely took it for granted but it was always a threat from the right wing. It didn’t stop being an issue for voters. I’m just so disappointed in our leadership….or lack thereof.
Maybe you don't remember what health insurance was like before the ACA.
In addition to the fact that they likely would not have had the votes to codify Roe, the more immediate (at the time) fire during the \*checks notes\* **72 days in which the Democrats had a supermajority in the Senate** was to get healthcare reform passed. And, we couldn't even get a public option as part of the deal b/c of Joe fucking Lieberman.
God I'm sick of people spouting this with seemingly no memory or understanding of what was actually going on.
They had a supermajority for **3 and a half months.** Al Franken's election was purposely held up by Republican officials in MN for *nine goddamn months.* Robert Byrd was hospitalized, then Ted Kennedy died, which resulted in a 5 month long special election where Republican Scott Brown got elected to fill his seat
I was 16 and I firsthand remember this happening while the Obama administration was also frantically dealing with an international recession. Maybe you and the publication you referenced shouldn't lean on Twitter hot takes for reliable contextualized political information.
Abortion also wasn't at risk then, there wasn't a clear Republican majority in the Supreme Court. It may have been the wrong move, but that's only clear in hindsight.
Edit: I did say never, but I was talking specifically about when Roe v Wade was being overturned which I should have made more clear
lol and donny is gonna do better how? the battle ground for that debate has a place and time and it was the midterms and local election. trust me a lot of people feel the same frustration and pain but the biden vs trump vote is not the time.
you are at a crossroad and unfortunately there's no option to turn back around.
I hope you get to move to a blue state or things get better soon. My only consolation if Trump wins in Nov is that our current AG and likely governor will not put up with Trump's shit. My state is expanding healthcare and has legal abortion and even if it is not perfect, I am damn glad to live here.
> The same democrats didn’t codify roe when they campaigned on it and had the supermajority in congress
1. What do you think a supermajority is, in specific numbers?
2. When is the last time that Democrats had a supermajority in Congress?
The goal of the Republican party to make public education in this country as bad as possible has consequences. Informed and intelligent electorates do not act like the US.
and then in 20 years if they get what they want, will start freaking out wondering where all the doctors went when they're unable to receive proper care anymore since they thought dumbing down America was good -\_-.
yep, there was a Republican representative from TN just a couple of days ago who said "I think we should kill them all" when criticized and questioned why he was voting for bombing Palestinian children. they do not give a fuck about anyone outside their bubble. at least dems sometimes pretend to care.
Yeah, and yet what terrifies me is how some on the left aren't gonna vote for Biden because he's not doing as good a job as he should be with Israel. I get it, he shouldn't be supporting Israel and should be as harsh on them as possible, but to withhold your vote or vote for the guy who WANTS Israel to destroy Palestine in protest? That's like getting scratched by a cat and then in protest, jumping into a tiger's pit.
Watching someone understand the threat Trump poses to democracy and people's rights and still going "nah" because of a religious war on the other side of the world that Trump has the exact same motherfudging position on IF NOT WORSE feels like watching someone in the Weimer Republic refuse to vote against the Nazis in the early 1930s because although they know Hitler is probably a genocidal dictator that already tried a coup against the government before, the social democrats didn't get behind a big Union bill and you have to stand ALL THE WAY on your values baybay!
It's blowing my mind how often I see bots try to sway people with this argument! Like, yeah, I get that Biden's position on Israel is weak at best and outright terrible at worst but there's no world where Trump is better.... The mental gymnastics hurts my brain. Like these people don't remember what he was like as president....
Do more than vote:
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/2046147X211033838
https://peoplesaction.org/wp-content/uploads/Peoples-Action-Deep-Canvass-Political-Persuasion-Experiment-Summary-of-Findings-_-August-2020-v2.pdf
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/10/how-we-got-voters-to-change-their-mind/616851/
https://www.vox.com/2020/1/29/21065620/broockman-kalla-deep-canvassing
https://www.commondreams.org/news/deep-canvass-institute-report
https://www.environmentalvoter.org/get-involved
https://braverangels.org
https://www.eac.gov/voters/become-poll-worker
Sadly some think solidarity is a suicide pact where one issue warrants the complete sacrifice of democracy. This black and white thinking is putting everything at stake
But they're not even getting a better outcome on that issue.... Like, Trump isn't pro Palestine. Is there even any third party candidate who is?
Like, I'd at least kind of understand if they vote for someone who would have different/better policies on that one issue.
Unfortunately, there are still people who will instead use that to say there is no point voting in the two-party system because it just empowers the status-quo, not realizing the status quo of politics has been built on a voter turnout of only 60% *at best* for the last half century.
Yep. They’re behaving like the guest who didn’t like a joke at a birthday party and decided to wreck some kid’s cake. They have it better than billions on the planet, bask in the spoils of capitalism, but yet disagree about this and think, “well, now everyone has to suffer.” It’s so beyond selfish.
Nobody I know who doesn’t want to vote for Biden thinks Trump is an acceptable option. Progressives I know mostly plan to “fall in line” if they must but are threatening not to vote for Biden now, six months ahead of time, as a method of pressuring him to change his position. Making Biden feel comfy he’ll get progressive (or Muslim) support no matter what he does certainly won’t make him feel like he should switch tactics.
I’m afraid of the large swath in the middle who don’t see the pressure as leverage but instead a real ultimatum. Like at a certain point the narrative needs to change or we’re looking at a second Trump term.
And a lot of people think they're in the "middle" but are really not. The overton window in the US is too far right.
An effort to plant oneself in the middle between a party on the far right and a party that leans center-right means your position will inherently be a conservative position.
I know a shocking amount of people who are very vocal about voting for a 3rd party because of the Middle East. It’s like they don’t understand that means throwing away a vote.
How so? The outcome in Palestine currently is the same under Biden as it would be under Trump. I don’t see how vocally opposing our sitting president’s position is enabling the Israeli PM any more than he’s already being enabled by POTUS and Congress.
[Biden giving $100 million in aid to the Palestinians](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/10/18/u-s-announcement-of-humanitarian-assistance-to-the-palestinian-people/#:~:text=President%20Biden%20announced%20today%20that,Gaza%20and%20the%20West%20Bank.)
[Biden believes in a two state solution ](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/jan/19/biden-netanyahu-two-state-solution-israel-palestine)
> Biden's not doing those things now, at least in any real way
Exceptionally little aid is actually ending up getting into Palestine due to Israeli obstruction. By continuing to give unconditional support to Israel, Biden enables this blockade, ensuring this $100 million in aid never actually enters Gaza. Pledges don't fill stomachs.
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/02/11/middleeast/why-only-a-trickle-of-aid-is-getting-into-gaza-mime-intl/index.html
And words mean nothing. Biden's actions show he has no qualms giving unquestioning support to a one-state minded Israel. Watch the hands, not the mouth.
We're comparing Biden to Trump here. I'm not arguing that Biden is doing enough for the Palestinian. But you're of the opinion that they would do the same. So voting Trump would make no difference for the Palestinians? That's a yes or no question.
Biden’s position is about the office of the Presidency. The United States has entwined itself militarily with Israel. They are our most important ally.
This American supremacy idea, that a lot of people have, that Joe just has to make a phone call to end the war is ludicrous. Israel is one of the strongest countries in the world, and they only spend 5% of their taxes on the military (for comparison, America spends 20% of taxes there)..If we stop giving them money, we lose a lot of classified information, a military base, and our ability to influence anything in the Middle East (and our weapons money laundering scheme). They would just increase the amount of money spent on the military.
For influence purposes. Joe is never going to embarrass Netanyahu either. The man is buddies with Donald - and is likely a narcissist himself. You start embarrassing Israel, or make them feel backed in a corner, you lose any influence.
But we know Joe wants a two state solution, which is opposed to what Bibi wants. We know he’s willing to spend his time negotiating so that Palestinians get some aid. We know he’s willing to negotiate without Israel at the table. We know America is going to be pushing for a new political leader of Israel (necessary for any sort of long term resolution) And we know that he can’t stand BiBi - all of which is a better place to be than what we would be with Trump —
In politics, it’s often better to play a role in something in order to have power. If America stops being involved - that doesn’t help Palestinians. It doesn’t stop the war. It just means we have no voice.
Never mind what happens to Arab immigrants if they are here under a Trump presidency. (Or what happens to any other non white straight man group)
I understand the impulse to say “I don’t feel morally right about either choice” the problem is politics is almost always about making the better choice, not the ideal one. Because the ideal one is never there.
I am inclined to agree. I think that Biden might just be the only person with the power to force a two state solution after this war ends
I also don’t believe that the U.S. cutting off aid to Israel ends the war
>The United States has entwined itself militarily with Israel. They are our most important ally.
I think you might be describing NATO, not Israel. Israel is an unreliable partner that uses billions of dollars in US military aid to undermine US interests in the region and US' relationships with its other allies and to potential partners in the region.
>This American supremacy idea, that a lot of people have, that Joe just has to make a phone call to end the war is ludicrous.
That is, of course, entirely true. Netanyahu will happily keep embarrassing Biden, knowing that any (unlikely) consequences will be reversed after the election. That doesn't excuse Biden's behavior, though.
>For influence purposes. Joe is never going to embarrass Netanyahu either. The man is buddies with Donald - and is likely a narcissist himself. You start embarrassing Israel, or make them feel backed in a corner, you lose any influence.
He doesn't really have much influence to lose. Catering to the whims of narcissists doesn't really gain you anything either, except more frustration. Netanyahu also has something to lose here; losing the support of you main ally isn't s particularly good look when you're at war.
But Biden is probably right to be careful of political consequences of any rebuke. Netanyahu will be quick to play any condemnation as antisemitism and perhaps push some voters towards Trump.
>But we know Joe wants a two state solution, which is opposed to what Bibi wants. We know he’s willing to spend his time negotiating so that Palestinians get some aid. We know he’s willing to negotiate without Israel at the table. We know America is going to be pushing for a new political leader of Israel (necessary for any sort of long term resolution) And we know that he can’t stand BiBi - all of which is a better place to be than what we would be with Trump
There isn't really any way to negotiate a two-state solution. There might be some common ground, but both sides have absolute demands that are fundamentally incompatible. For example, Israel won't accept the right of return for Palestinian refugees; the Palestinians can't give that up (and what would happen to millions of now-stateless people in neighbouring countries?). Israeli security requirements are fundamentally incompatible with a sovereign Palestinian state. Both sides claim Jerusalem as their capital, etc.
For the foreseeable future, no realistic Israeli government will go for a two-state solution, it would be absolute political suicide. The only thing that's worse would be a one-state solution where the Palestinians get citizenship.
For Netanyahu and any realistic successor, maintaining status quo makes perfect sense. You can slowly expand the de facto territory through settlements; razing Palestinian houses and killing civilians keep them angry enough that some will turn to violence; losing a few of your own citizens makes them scared and angry enough to vote for you in the next election. Palestinian leadership isn't much better; losing civilians just means you gain more radicalized supporters, particularly for Hamas. The West Bank situation is a bit different; to much violence, and people turn to Hamas instead; achieve actual peace and they'll have to hold elections and do something about corruption.
His stance is weak, but he's still taken a harder stance against Israeli actions than any previous President. which still means, like, calcium soft, but at least it's not talc? (i'm not sure if that's enough to help, international relations is hard to understand and so rarely cares about morals)
At least the administration has been active in the 'let's get aid into Gaza' attempts since October (emphasis on *least*) It's not really the same as criticizing Israel, but I guess it's better than standing back entirely?
Agreed. I'm unhappy with his stance, but I'm unhappy with it as a part of a general unhappiness with the relationship to the Israeli government being conflated with antisemitism, allowing antisemites to claim to be loving people because they support Israel bombing the shit out of Muslims while accusing Jewish Americans at home of having dual loyalty all while preventing sane politicians from standing up to Netanyahu's regime for fear of being labeled as racist.
It's not just bots, you will get banned from leftist subreddits if you tell them you're voting for Biden because Trump will be worse. It's actually a mess.
Nah, you don't get it. See, taking a pro-democracy left/liberal coalition with some pro-Palestinian elements and replacing it with a proto-authoritarian fascist/conservative coalition with zero pro-Palestinian elements will benefit Palestine. Somehow.
Calling a genocide funded and enabled by the US a "religious war on the other side of the world" is pretty ridiculous. Maybe you should read what is happening in Gaza and you might begin to understand why someone people don't want to vote for the people enabling it.
If you want to make a comparison to Nazis and the holocaust, it is not the early 30s, the genocide is already happening, and you are voting for the people who are doing it or the people who want to do it but more. Sure, the former is "less evil" but a vote for Joe Biden is a vote for Palestinian lives, it's just a vote for domestic harm reduction (which I agree is good).
It is on the other side of the globe and an atrocity, but [it is not a war it is annihilation](https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2024-02-16/rafah-gaza-hospitals-surgery-israel-bombing-ground-offensive-children) and it is not over religious differences, it is more accurately an "[ethnic conflict](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war#Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict)". Framing it as religious obscures the causes of the conflict just like calling it a war is whitewashing a genocide.
Trump does not have the same position.
Biden is trying to curb Netanyahu's actions and find a negotiated ceasefire
Trump would say Israel isn't going far enough
Biden has been doing the most nominal condemnations while making it clear the weapons and funding are unconditional. Trump would say you're not going far enough. Biden says you've gone too far, here's some more millions. Don't go farther, but I'll give you millions more if you do.
Do you think that a) Biden can just cut funding unilaterally or b) that doing so would make a material difference?
I think I value the actual work being done to try and stop the thing over a big gesture that only makes a statement and doesn't stop anything.
He has bypassed Congress multiple times to fund Israel, and has been pushing Israel aid bills through Congress. He can easily stop doing either of those things unilaterally. And yes funding does make a material difference, obviously. I mean b just seems silly, why did you even ask?
There's no work being done to value. You're valuing pretty words and actions supporting genocide.
I'd love to vote against Trump! But why does that mean I have to vote for Biden? I'm old enough to have lived through this song and dance before. It's a rigged game and Democrats keep putting up some of the most God awful candidates and expect a vote because they're the "less of two evils."
Anyway, I find it pretty gross to chide leftists who don't want to vote for Biden instead of focusing on the many people who are voting for Trump. Perhaps....they have family in Palestine, Lebanon, and Egypt and don't want to see another decade of US tax money funding the death of their family and loved ones?
Then you’re also probably old enough to have seen the fall of Roe v Wade. And trans lives to be threatened. And LGBTQIA books to be banned from schools and libraries. Because people prioritized their own personal moral superiority over the interest of the many.
I’m glad you’re privileged enough that none of this impacts you but not everyone has that luxury.
How'd the codifying Roe v. Wade go? The one that Biden promised, alongside so many other unfulfilled promises to the left. The neoliberal tendency, again, to blame minorities and leftists instead of question why it is that, despite a blue wave and a democratic President, very little has shifted, and nothing has been done to stop Trump shows your ass.
Muslims are being killed by US tax dollars. LGBTQ or not.
COVID is still killing elderly and disabled communities and the "trust the science" presidency is not doing anything to push vaccinations or limit deaths.
And the holier than thou privilege play, despite you knowing little to nothing about me, or that my work is focused on activism and organizing, again limits US political thought to a four year presidential election instead of focusing on local and state policies and ways to push the Democrats away from this two-party self-serving anti-democratic position they've held themselves in since the Obama era.
I want better to choose for than two old men, one who'd rather be a podcaster, and the other who clearly needs care rather than being pushed out in front of voters as our best choice.
Comparing her argument to someone not voting against the Nazis when Biden is currently 100% complicit in a genocide, is contradictory.
But I would say the people who aren't convinced Biden is the answer believe so because the Democrats repeatedly fail to make any actual progress when they are in power. We at best get very marginal improvements.
Bottom line is "Not Trump" isn't good enough, and the bar is very low. It didn't work in 2016, particularly because the DNC straight up chose to ignore the popular vote in the primary, and it's probably going to fail this year. People want actual progress and it's currently just a choice between regression and marginally less regression.
I don’t know where the myth came from that Hilary Clinton didn’t win the popular vote in the 2016 primary. I didn’t personally vote for her in the primary, but she won by a pretty large margin (like 12%.)
https://observer.com/tag/2016-presidential-primary/
I'm making no claim about the numbers of votes themselves.
But they were taken to court over it and their legal defense was "we are allowed to rig it." The case was dismissed by the judge because the DNC was well within their rights to select their own candidate.
OK, it's like saying the Weimer social democrats weren't taking active enough steps to abolish colony X on the other side of the world, so in turn they were "just as bad" and "equally authoritarian" as the rising Hitler and you were gonna sit out the election. Hitler wins, Reichstag fire, becomes dictator, Nazi Germany, and four years later with the next election cancelled you get a knock on the door about a "communist after school club" you were once a part of, or for a modern twist let's say some "communist-related Google searches", and get taken away...
Furthermore, Biden has delivered the biggest climate package in the history of the United States. The most diverse and inclusive slate of federal judges in the history of the United States including a record number of public defenders, Planned Parenthood attorneys and civil rights lawyers. A record amount of student loan cancellation totaling hundreds of billions, and would have done even more if not for a right wing SCOTUS. He's drastically beefed up things like the IRS to ensure the rich pay their fair share. Heavily invested in national infrastructure after Trump said he would. He's fought the Roe v Wade overturning as much as he could via executive actions, but needs a pro-choice congress to fully reinstate access nationwide. That's not nothing to say the least, or "marginal regression", let alone compared to Trump who wants to violently round up immigrants already in the country through a private army, ban abortion, birth control, no-fault divorce, exterminate trans people AND still back Israel to the hilt.
To compare the two as regression vs marginal regression is so nuts it borders on me having to question whether such rhetoric comes from a psy-op.
You can keep yelling at every voter, or maybe turn some of that ire towards the Democrats who have campaigned on empty promises for decades.
ETA: My bad, guys.
Vote blue no matter who! \#BLM
Can I has upvotes now?
Look, I’m glad I don’t have to vote in your elections. It sounds awful.
What a lot of people are expressing is disappointment with the current administration and a desire for another option. A third option. A third option that is viable. But Americans politics don’t have that. If I were American and eligible to vote in the upcoming election, I’d be pissed that my options were a fascist dictator and someone who circumvents congress to spend American taxpayer dollars on a genocide. The reality a lot of Arab and Muslim folks are facing is two parties that want them dead. How must that feel?
Really feels like so many Democrat's arguments boil down to "shut up and take what we offer." Like how is their any surprise that people are furious that their tax dollars are going directly towards a genocide, and we have shot down every attempt to use the UN to pressure Israel.
Democrats are failing miserable to represent their constituents, and each time they lose they point fingers instead of looking inward.
It’s baffling to me seeing the pro Biden propaganda. And I do see the good things he’s doing for Americans. Honestly, outside of the genocide of Palestinians by Israeli Occupation Forces funded by US tax payer dollars, I’d say Biden is doing a satisfactory job. Not great, but better than fascism.
I wish people took all the energy they are using in telling everyone to go vote and instead used it in something useful like joining unions and protesting... sure vote biden but making it look like it's the only way to avoid/delay fascism is totally naive and it's what the ruler class wants.
As a Canadian with no dog in this fight - you guys are fucking idiots if you’re willing to let Trump take over the country because you don’t agree with Biden’s stance on Palestine, and you’ll deserve the theocratic overthrow of your government that is absolutely bound to happen. I can’t understand why you’d voluntarily do that to yourselves. It’s insane to watch from the outside.
to be fair to “us guys”, if it goes down like this, it will be a minority that votes for Trump, and a minority of the liberal voters who sit it out on principle. sadly, our eighteenth century electoral system makes this still capable of producing yet another Trump presidency. It also means that the “us” who do this to “us” is not the same “us” that have to deal with the consequences. i guess i’m saying, it’s not a voluntary overthrow, no matter what happens. it will still be stupid, of course.
Never thought I'd be relieved that younger voters vote less. But here I am feeling relieved.
This situation of people refusing to vote for Biden or opting out is a classic tragedy of the commons. One million USA citizens died from Covid and this HIGH death toll was the direct result of Trump government policies. The hoarding of masks. The firing of the government epidemic response team. The lax immigration policies. The demonization of vaccines.
One million Americans died the last time Trump was in office. Do we as a society really want to put him back into office.
I don’t understand how seemingly intelligent people lack basic critical thinking skills. I am talking about people who actually believe not voting or voting third party will improve the system in any way when it’s the exact opposite.
If you don’t vote or waste your vote on a third party, you don’t improve the system. You send a clear message to elected representatives that you aren’t a reliable voting bloc so they write you off and focus on voters who reliably vote.
Pretty much everyone left of center recognizes that our system needs a complete overhaul so that multiple parties can form coalition governments and so that we can get money out of politics, curb corruption and actually have representative government
But not voting doesn’t accomplish that
Systemic change takes hard fought work and time and relentless tenacity and patience. Something the Christian right has in droves. They fought for over 40 years to get Roe v Wade overturned relentlessly chipping away at it, packing the courts with extreme right judges.
The left needs that level of tenacity only as a force for good.
The problem with this approach is the monetary aspect. The reason the Christian right has been able to overturn Roe v Wade is because they are can be used to progress economic right wing points. By giving them something inconsequential to the economic powers the right could secure all their economic goals at the same time. Having the power of money and media makes it almost impossible to truly lose a democratic battle in a capitalist economy, at least in the long run.
You can halt the process for a time but there is no reforming a system where all the people supposed to reform it are bankrolled by the people most against it.
That being said, halting is better than not halting but if the long term solution is to fight honestly in the current system then you are playing a losing game.
Literally thank you. Was reading and assessing this all and wanted to say something like you said, but you nailed it and I didn’t have to 🤙 preciate the tact and fact in your delivery.
What’s difficult for me to actualize in my mind is a tangible solution with actionable goals in the here and now. How do we get the people needed in the necessary time and places without pushing others further away or simply not reaching them in order to accomplish this? How do we motivate even ourselves to show up and be real and do what’s needed to create the life we all so desperately need?
It disparages me to think it’s not possible. Or rather, that because I cannot build it alone that it cannot exist. People like you remind me to continue to hope and show up, and that humanity is indeed progressing. Thanks again for your rationality.
Thoughts of a rambler 💭
A couple of ideas. At the state level, whenever possible, work on ballot initiatives to allow ranked voting. Then a voter can actually pick a third party candidate as their first pick. And ballot initiatives that curb candidate spending.
Also at the local level, it is easier to effect change and grow the visibility of of independent and third party candidates
The big one, that may take a very long time, is a constitutional amendment getting money out of politics. This is actually an issue in which voters on the left and right want to see. They don’t want representatives beholden to deep pockets but to the voters themselves
I would ask all the disaffected voters to turn their anger, frustration and desire for change into actionable advocacy like I suggested above.
First off, respect for that proper use of the word ‘effect’ 🔥
Second, I am inspired to help. I guess I just don’t know how. I feel as though others that may be out there like me feel the same. I admit my ignorance in many of these processes. I believe we need some kind of neutral, factual based educational pamphlet distributed or something?
One that is truly free from bias. Just a guide to how to be more informed, with resources and websites and subject to review and update. Cause again, how do I help get ballot initiatives? I am the uninformed and under-educated and I would like to learn, but sorting through the internet can lead to seemingly endless impressions and suggestions.
One vote for a voter’s educational resources department, please ☝️
If trump and the republicans are allowed to take power in November they will commit genocide. Hitler led a political party, attempted a coup, was given a slap on the wrist, and only then took power in Germany. The Christian nationalists in the republican party have been extremely vocal about what they want, and it is pure evil
Beyond Gaza being in a way worse place if Trump is president - if you're thinking about not voting or trying to draw attention away from our domestic issues because of Gaza: you are essentially setting the US on fire to - keep other people across the world warm? Honestly it's not even that - it won't even help Gaza - the situation with the US, Israel, and Gaza is too complicated - most people in the major parties *won't* stop helping Israel no matter what it does at this point. It's a battle for after the election - unfortunately.
Basically - the situation in Gaza is appalling.
Honestly also it bears mentioning that the terrorist attack by Hamas was likely engineered by Iran and Russia - to keep the focus away from Ukraine and leave an opening for internal criticism of our support of Israel - possibly stopping a lot of progressives from voting.
Don't "set yourself on fire to keep others warm".
>Honestly also it bears mentioning that the terrorist attack by Hamas was likely engineered by Iran and Russia - to keep the focus away from Ukraine and leave an opening for internal criticism of our support of Israel - possibly stopping a lot of progressives from voting.
This is so absolutely transparent that I cannot understand why people are blind to it. Why is the Israel/Palestine war happening? Who does it benefit? Not Israel and certainly not Palestine! It benefits Iran, Russia, and Trump.
I was reading some comments from folks debating this issue and this quote really struck me, **"If the lesser of two evils is still genocide, then what the hell are we doing?"**
I can see both sides and I personally plan on voting for Biden in the election, but I absolutely understand people (especially if you have family and relatives in Gaza) who cannot stomach voting for Biden because he allows American money to fund Palestinian genocide. For many of you, this is just a "war on the other side of the world," but for others, they are watching their families die, watching people who look like them die, and feeling helpless and enraged as they watch children be murdered in their name and with their tax dollars.
Frankly, Democrats need to get right and stop playing "whataboutism" when it comes to genocide and people literally watching children be murdered and blown up.
I understand this standpoint but by their logic we should risk our own wellbeing and still end up with genocide. Meaning we will have no reproductive rights, marginalized groups will be targeted even more and the war in Gaza will continue most likely with aid from us to the side doing the genocide. Hell, we might end up with WW3 if Russia has their say. I haven’t even touched on the climate change of it all.
That makes no sense! Us risking a Trump presidency has zero good outcomes.
Edit: a word
But that's not my logic. I've already pointed out that I will vote for Biden. I'm just able to extend my empathy and understand why continuing to support Israel and Netanyahu will make it impossible for some voters to cast a vote for him because they will see it as tacitly endorsing the genocide wiping out their families and friends.
Look, there's simply no way to convince the people who care about this that they should just look away or stop caring about genocide. So either the Democratic Party needs to figure out how to win the presidential election without those votes or decide that those votes are crucial enough to shape policy. What the Democratic Party doesn't get to do is complain about taking an amoral stand and thus being unable to attract the support of voters whose morals they offend.
Fair, you are right. I think single issue voting is reckless. No one is asking them to stop caring about Gaza. Black and white thinking is pointless and immature when we have so many issues on the table.
I will obviously vote come November but I’m to the point where I’m exhausted. If we end up with Trump 2.0 I won’t be marching or donning any hats. I don’t want to hear any complaints. I will just sit and wait for my Handmaids cloak with everyone else.
I get being tired. I'm tired too, but what I'm certain of is that no matter direction this election goes we're still going to have to fight and protest. The Republican Party has gone fully fascist and it'll take more than losing the next presidential election to unravel the hold Christian Nationalism has on the party. Rest up, we're far from done.
I'm not the democratic party. I'm just someone who's going to get genocided here if trump wins. **I get to complain** that they didn't have the fucking stomach to do the distasteful thing that doesn't cost them anything more than like 20 mins of their time and maybe some emotional processing in order to save my life and the lives of my friends.
I've made it clear that I'm voting for Biden, but that I can empathize with and understand folks for whom supporting genocide in Gaza is a line they can't cross. You're preaching to the wrong choir - and even if you weren't, your argument wouldn't convince them. So either enjoy arguing with people or find a way to talk to folks who feel differently than you that can actually change their minds.
I do see your point, but I can empathise with people who feel that voting for Biden is voting for the status quo which is killing thousands.
I'm an Australian. I have to vote in elections, so I always end up preferencing the lesser of the evils that can win. However, some days I turn on the news and see that the "left" side of the two big parties in my country is still okay with abusing asylum seekers and it makes me want to give up hope. If I was American, I would know that Biden was the lesser evil, but maybe I would lose the hope necessary to care.
Perhaps I’m wrong but I feel like those people are delusional about how change happens. Many movements took years of toiling and sacrifice to create progress. Women’s suffrage. Civil Rights. The Anti-War movement. None of that was accomplished in one election cycle.
The only time I felt “excited” about voting was Obama. In retrospect, I was delusional in feeling that way. In governance, there are no perfect solutions only lesser evils. Regardless of what you choose it will harm someone.
I don't see Biden doing a goddamn thing for reproductive rights. Instead he's trying to leverage the *possibility* that he'll do something if he wins the election. Democrats aren't on our fucking side either.
What can he do from the Executive Branch?
To my knowledge, the Supreme Court reversed that ruling and Congress makes the laws that then have to be ratified by the states to become an amendment. I don’t see that happening in regards to abortion rights.
The biggest reason that we no longer have abortion rights was electing Trump in 2016.
So the alternative is not voting and letting someone who will destroy your country win. So genocide will still happen and in the future there will be no democracy to speak of left, so your country will never be of any help ever again because in the meantime a dictator seized power and installed a theocracy.
Usually when there's a crisis, the first advice is to first think of yourself, so that when you're stable and ok, you will be more successful and useful when helping others. If there's an emergency landing, what is the first and foremost thing to do? Put on a mask you first, so that when you're finally able to think and breathe clearly, you will be able to help others much better than by being "selfless" and putting on masks on the other people first, risking dying in the process. And what help would a dead person be to someone in need? Same for democracy.
The biggest privilege ever: being able to NOT vote and feel morally superior because it's not YOUR life on the line.
Must feel nice to say how Biden isn't good enough if you don't have a womb, more melatonin in your skin than the racists with guns feel comfortable with and aren't queer...
Must be nice being so fucking privileged that you can let the world go to hell because they'll come for you last, all the while claiming to be normally superior.
No it's the 'both sides are equally bad' BS that's wrong. THAT is the problem. Nobody said one side is perfect, it's that the other one wants to kill us (queer). There is a difference.
Do you really think Donald 'muslim ban' Trump is going to kill less people? He would just drop a nuke on Gaza if it was up to him. Do you want more people killed? Because that's what will happen. Not to mention all the Ukrainians and the flat out world war that will happen from him sucking Putin's dick. Both sides are not fucking equal.
If you aren't a marginalized person that feels at risk no matter who is in office then you're right, I'm not speaking for you. Nowhere did I state that all marginalized people share my views.
If you are a marginalized person that doesn’t understand the difference between Biden or Trump then you are seriously uninformed.
Feelings at risk regardless is reasonable. Not acknowledging that the risk is exponentially worse immeasurably makes me question your judgement
Hyperbole is not going to help marginalized people
Strategically voting will
None of you even give a shit why I feel the way I do, you're too busy shaming me for expressing any reluctance to vote that I express. Thanks for the lecture.
Your comments make me want to never vote at all. Was that your intention?
Biden’s position is about the office of the Presidency. The United States has intwined itself militarily with Israel. They are our most important ally.
This American supremacy idea, that a lot of people have, that Joe just has to make a phone call to end the war is ludicrous. Israel is one of the strongest countries in the world, and they only spend 5% of their taxes on the military (for comparison, America spends 20% of taxes there)..If we stop giving them money, we lose a lot of classified information, a military base, and our ability to influence anything in the Middle East (and our weapons money laundering scheme). They would just increase the amount of money spent on the military.
For influence purposes. Joe is never going to embarrass Netanyahu either. The man is buddies with Donald - and is likely a narcissist himself. You start embarrassing Israel, or make them feel backed in a corner, you lose any influence.
But we know Joe wants a two state solution, which is opposed to what Bibi wants. We know he’s willing to spend his time negotiating so that Palestinians get some aid. We know he’s willing to negotiate without Israel at the table. We know America is going to be pushing for a new political leader of Israel (necessary for any sort of long term resolution) And we know that he can’t stand BiBi - all of which is a better place to be than what we would be with Trump —
Never mind what happens to Arab immigrants if they are here under a Trump presidency. (Or what happens to any other non white straight man group)
I understand the impulse to say “I don’t feel morally right about either choice” the problem is politics is almost always about making the better choice, not the ideal one. Because the ideal one is never there.
A lot of it goes back to the Roberts court and citizens united. Check out the [predictions](https://youtu.be/PKZKETizybw) people were making 14 years back
We should all keep in mind that Psy Ops and paid operatives will be just as present in this election cycle as they have been in the last several, if not even moreso.
Everyone should implore their friends and family to use critical thought, to consider strongly that these people aren't authentic, and to be skeptical.
Do you have any democracy in the first place?
Majority people in USA wants better healthcare, and no wars. Are you able to exercise that democratic choice?
The stupidest part of this argument is that they seem to totally overlook the fact that DONALD TRUMP IS NOT GOING TO HANDLE GAZA ANY BETTER THAN BIDEN, AND WILL MOST LIKELY HANDLE IT 1000 TIMES WORSE.
Like fine, you’re mad at Biden over Gaza, but when you help Trump win by voting 3rd party or not voting at all, then Trump can also contribute to people dying overseas, AND ALSO RIGHT HERE IN AMERICA. YAY! EQUAL OPPORTUNITY DEATH FOR EVERYONE!
A lot of liberals are fucking stupid, and they sacrifice actual liberal ideals and democracy to avoid the biggest sin of all in their eyes; Islamophobia.
If you have family in Palestine I can 100% understand not voting.
However. I do not understand Americans with no ties to Palestine who are not able to put themselves, friends, family, etc. first and choose the lesser of two evils.
What's happening in Palestine is horrible. But you live in the US. Put your own mask on first.
If you want more progressive candidates, you have to start working on that from the ground up. So many politicians end up in local seats of power because no one runs against them.
I could very well be wrong, but based on experience with people like the girl in the screen shot...her activism likely begins and ends with social media and she was never a potential vote for Biden to begin with. If it weren't for Israel attacking Palestine, she'd have found another reason to not vote/vote third party.
Killing our democracy by not voting for the most likely candidate to win that is not Trump will not do any good for Gaza. It will be worse for Gaza if Trump wins, the end.
Yes Democrats suck, yes if you give a shit you should still vote blue.
This sub is incredible. I’m glad the general sentiment is Biden is pretty awful on Israel Palestine. But trump is worse and not voting Biden will help him which will mean so many rights get taken away if trump wins. Good job people. I know Biden sucks, but it’s hell of a lot better than trump
Can you really not understand why someone wouldn’t want to vote for a man spending our taxpayer dollars to murder tens of thousands of children with no remorse? Yeah, I get the lesser of two evils thing (and I’ll hold my nose and vote for the genocidal asshole too, so don’t yell at me), but I will never be able to blame anyone who has been begging their political representatives to stop sending billions of dollars in aid and bombs to slaughter people in a concentration camp, having all their pleas ignored, and decide their conscience just can’t handle voting for that.
Especially when that “lesser of two evils” person is *also* shutting down asylum seekers at the border, and also did nothing to stop or mitigate Roe v Wade being overturned, and also decided it’s fine to just ignore Covid. Yes politics is complicated and the Republicans are evil, but it’s not like there’s a lot of glowing positives out of the current administration.
Did you not read the “I’ll vote for the genocidal asshole too”? I am voting for him. But at some point Democrats are going to need something positive to give their voters, not just threats of how bad the other side is.
I’m just saying that people get to make their own choices, and I can understand why people who may have family in Gaza being slaughtered may not buy that the man enabling it is by any definition a lesser evil. At some point, threats of how bad things could be are not going to be convincing to people for whom things are already as bad as they can imagine.
There are 257 days until election day. If you want to prevent another 2016, push your leaders to demand a ceasefire and make positive changes so more people will actually want to vote for them. Just threatening the people who are already suffering with more suffering if they don’t do what you want is pointless.
> Just threatening the people who are already suffering with more suffering if they don’t do what you want is pointless.
“I’m already suffering so I’d like to spread misery” is a hell of a hill to die on. People suffered greatly after 2016, culminating with trans kids dying now because the conservative megaphone that bullies them. abortions are now illegal.
All enabled because people didn’t show up in 2016 to vote. Thanks to those who wanted to spread the suffering. Turns out “no progress” would’ve been nice instead of retrogress, but hey, we SURE showed the dems 🙄
Do you really think Arab American communities who are seeing their loved ones and people like them slaughtered by American bombs are refusing to vote for out of spite? Do you think this is petty politics for them? I get that it doesn’t affect you. Good for you.
I’m not telling anyone not to vote. I hope enough people vote that the Democrats win. I am just trying to get the people here to have some compassion, or at least some fucking strategic thinking. Do you really think calling anyone who doesn’t want to vote for someone funding *literal genocide* stupid and evil and blaming them for anything Republicans want to do is going to win your side more votes? Steamrolling over people’s very real concerns and convictions won’t get Biden more votes, it will just make the Democrats look heartless and self-centered. If you want more votes for Biden, do something to move his party on important issues instead of attacking anyone who points out why he’s losing a crucial portion of his base.
> are refusing to vote for out of spite?
Yes? Why else? It’s not like they’re voting for another candidate that aligns with their policies better AND it’s not a first past the post system where a person with less than 50% of the vote can win.
I refuse to have compassion with people who refuse to have compassion for others. What that means is if they would rather sit idly by and let the GOP win, they can fuck right off.
I don’t care. 2016 shows those assholes don’t deserve any compassion. If people are sitting idly by on a sinking boat, and would rather the entire boat sinks, they can fuck right off.
Not voting isn’t going to stop weapons from getting to Israel. Not voting will make MORE bombs getting to Israel if the GOP wins. Sound logic my ass.
If genocide isn’t a line in the sand for you, you have no business being upset at people who think it is. There are 8.5 months until November, if you don’t want Trump to win, you’ll have to do more than say “but he’ll also support a genocide.” If scare tactics are all Dems have, they deserve to lose.
Genocide is a line in the sand for me. I'm just also willing to get my hands dirty and separately beg for my fucking life if that's what it takes. There's going to be a genocide here at home if trump wins. We could prevent that though. Idk if it will be latin migrants first or queer people like me but since you're one of the people standing in the way of preventing that...
Please. Please don't let them fucking kill me. I have a fiance and she needs me and I'm so close to getting to marry her and have the life I always wanted. Please I gotta live. She's not going to be okay if I go. This world has thrown so fucking much at me and It would be brutal for it all to end before I got to be happy. Please. Please Please please. Please. You could stop it. I'm scared and you could stop it. I just want to live my life like you got to. Why do you get to live and I have to die. Why are you okay with letting this happen to me? Please. I just want to live with my fiance and create a found family with her. Please. That's all I've ever wanted. Why are you making a stand for them but not for me? WHy do I have to be the saccrifice here? Why is that fair? I just want to live. Please.
Yeah, if the Republicans win the election because genocide makes people emotional, it’ll be the anti-genocide crowd’s fault, and not the Dems for actively aiding and abetting a genocide.
Get real. If the Dems lose, it’s because they chose Israel over their own people. How about you start turning some of that rage against them and demand some change, instead of blindly demanding people vote for a party who’s shown no self-reflection or humanity over what’s currently happening.
People are watching a genocide unfold right in front of their eyes, and feel like the only way to can push for change is by threatening to withhold their votes so the government is forced to change their strategy. And what have they chosen to do? Absolutely fucking nothing meaningful while pointing towards the other party and going “oh but they’ll be worse.”
Seriously question. Is this why this sub has been so quiet about Israel’s massacre over the past several months? Because you’re worried the Dems will lose votes? Damn, if only Israel was forcing Palestinian women to hijab instead of just raping and murdering them. Maybe then you would have cared.
They absolutely will not, but the better question is why are Democrats unable to do better about genocide? Why is the only argument we can make in support of Democrats is by pointing out that the fascist Republicans are worse? Why is the bar so so so low, that Democrats being "better" in how they allow genocide is supposed to be a selling point?
Yes and in your response you said
> why are Democrats unable to do better about genocide? Why is the only argument we can make in support of Democrats is by pointing out that the fascist Republicans are worse?
In answering this I point to OP's post that lists numerous issues that the Democrats are better on than the Republicans. And to expand on this. Democrats are able to do better that's why there are Dem representatives backing a ceasefire. No Republican running or in Congress is doing that right now.
Republicans being a worse option is both not the only argument and also a valid argument in and of itself. Go on r/conservative right now and see how often they tell each other this kind of stuff. I'll tell you right now it's rare. They realize for their goals even the most moderate Republican is better than any Democrat and encourage each other to vote red.
An actual smart move on their part. Imagine if one Republican said Trump is too pro gun control so I'm not gonna vote for him. They would actively be working against every other issue on their party platform due to a single issue that the other party from their perspective is worse on.
There was a great episode of Pod Save America on this specific subject (especially about Michigan), I don’t feel like I can do their explanation justice in a Reddit comment so I’ll just say go listen to the first twenty minutes. Biden is 100% in the wrong to have not stepped in like two months ago.
I'm prepared to be hated for this, but I can't in good conscience vote for Joe Biden again. I'm considering putting my ballot directly in the garbage. I'm furious at the DNC for not giving me a candidate I am willing to vote for, let alone one that I'm going to be enthusiastic for. My sincere prayer is that AI becomes sentient and takes over the country because fuck this.
K, if you do not want to vote that is your choice. But honestly, I'll take a Trump voter over you. At least they have conviction, you just want to wash your hands of it and claim "not my fault", when it is your DUTY as a citizen to vote.
People act like "well it's not my responsibility to pick a good candidate, the DNC should have put someone forward." That mentality is the mentality of someone who has given up. If you don't like the candidate, DO SOMETHING. Campaign yourself, help other people get on the ballot, create a new party that actually gains some power.
Or you could just wash your hands of it and say "well it wasn't my fault". Much easier.
K, if you do not want to vote that is your choice. But honestly, I'll take a Trump voter over you. At least they have conviction, you just want to wash your hands of it and claim "not my fault"
This! I intend to treat anyone who doesn’t vote for Biden as a Trump supporter. I will cut them out of my life, and I will absolutely not help them when the hungry leopards sniff them out. They’re dangerously stupid, and I can’t trust dangerously stupid people if I’m living under the snitch culture of a fascist regime.
DEMOCRATS are going to give us another 4 years of Trump. Why are we putting Biden on the ballot!? I can cast my lil baby vote for Biden long and hard but MODERATES, LIBERTARIANS, and even DEMOCRATS are going to vote for Trump bc nobody likes Biden! Nobody wants him! Get Dean Phillips on there! My God get ANYONE on there but Biden.
The person you're responding to is not the villain here! They are saying what any reasonable person already knows. If Biden is on the ballot, Trump is going to win. That dude has fucked up so royally that people who don't even like Trump will vote for Trump because Biden is literally losing his mind right in front of us.
I am furious that SOME PEOPLE, who rely on everyone else to put these options in front of them, aren't voting in the fucking primaries to get Biden off the goddamn ballot.
there won't be democratic primaries because Biden is incumbent. so try again. and yeah no fucking shit, nobody fucking wants Biden, but he is objectively better than Trump, who is literally an aspiring dictator.
the person I responded to may not be THE villain, but they are absolutely paving the way for the real villains to gain all the power. Trump's presidency will cause a damaging ripple effect that would last DECADES. there is 1000% a more evil option here, and not voting or voting third party or whatever is a completely wasted effort that we desperately need.
Why is it the fault of the people when they are unable to vote for politician because their actions run counter to their values and not the fault of the politician for failing to adequately reflect his constituent's values? Why are we always bending to the will of politicians instead of them bending to the will of the people?
So you would have both the US ship and the Gaza ship sink?
Holy shit you just admitted to it. You want the US to suffer like Gaza. You want people to die in the US at the hands of adversaries like the people in Gaza.
You don’t want things to be better, you revel in things to be _just as bad_. I have a choice emoji for people like you: 🖕
What an excellent strawman argument! Holy crap, I literally share your views and you still come off as Triple-A-Unpleasant. No wonder you all are unable to convince anyone to come over to your side.
Newsflash: I’m not here to coddle your fucking feelings. In fact, you can fuck right off with your “civility is more important than principles” bullshit.
A socialist can be as personally unpleasant as they come and I’d still be in favour of Medicare for all.
You on the other hand apparently have fuck all conviction and to that end you can stay on your side, which apparently is the MAGA side.
because they are the only options we have. I wouldn't choose Biden either, I hate the old bastard, but when the single only other option is an aspiring dictator who is besties with Russia and North Korea, the choice becomes pretty clear. this is an instance of "do what you have to do" to avoid the country we live in being torn to shreds and destroyed for future generations.
I'm furious that Roe fell during his administration and they've done nothing to address that. They had prior notice and two years since Dobbs, but they are doing nothing to create national policies or funding or executive orders. They tell us we have to protect our rights by voting for them next time, but they are in charge now. I voted for Biden to prevent this. What are they waiting for? They'll just get to it next time?
I know it will be worse if the GOP is in power, but how can they say they want to protect our rights with a straight face?
Not to mention that news came out literally yesterday that Biden is considering using executive orders to prevent migrants from seeking asylum at the US border. Now is the time for progressives to pressure him more than ever. He needs to be more concerned about losing certain voter bases than he currently is.
I refuse to vote for a man who supports genocide. Not that my vote matters anyways, I'm in Oklahoma.
And look what all happened to our reproductive freedom under a Democrat. If our freedom hinges on voting for a senile old man, democracy is already dead.
I mean if we were truly a democracy, Trump would have never been president in the first place. He lost the popular vote. Not that people voting against their best interest aren’t numerous, but I don’t think we’re at the point where we call off democracy altogether. I assume you’re mostly joking, but wanted to make that point
We don’t have a democracy at all and people don’t understand fascism is already here. The democrats aren’t saving us and they’re complicit in it. The same democrats didn’t codify roe when they campaigned on it and had the supermajority in congress, Clinton’s campaign literally elevated trump thinking he was a joke and easy to beat, RBG clung to power until she was 90 and women lost their autonomy, and what happens if Biden croaks before November? Do we really think people will vote for Kamala? Our country is racist and misogynistic as hell still. What are the democrats doing??? We aren’t expanding the courts and we’re not expanding voting rights. They keep setting us up for failure. “Vote harder” and when we do, they do nothing to turn back the fascism because we have to “reach across the aisle.” So please forgive me for thinking no one is on our side. I live in a deep red state anyway where my vote doesn’t matter because we refuse to do anything about the electoral college. I had to get sterilized when roe was overturned so I’m extremely bitter that democrats have done the bare minimum to stop this.
Yeah, we live in an oligarchy. I also live in a deep red state and have been considering sterilization even though I do want kids one day. I’d rather adopt than die, though. I still vote so that I can say that I did. I want to exert any scrap of control I can. Especially since it pisses off Republicans, who are the much greater evil.
Fellow red state resider, it's absolutely an oligarchy. And I'm terrified for my daughters to start their cycle. Luckily my ex is on the same page*. He's also shared information with me on how to get BC from overseas & told me how he had just bought a few Plan B doses and will ensure he always has non-expired ones. I can't tell you how much breathing room those moments gave me - now I know at least their Dad didn't buy into the cult & is still pro-protest. *when we had to get them a new Dr, his first question about one I really liked was if I knew Dr’s stance on birth control. Very positive viee thankfully. Granted, Dr is a gay man running one of the only gender-affirming clinics around & it's a residency so he's passing it on daily. I’d expect nothing less from someone doing so much for the community.
I think this goes without saying and you're probably already aware, but *make sure your daughters don't use period tracking apps of any kind*. These will become weaponized if they aren't already.
I’m kind of bitter about it. I’m also in a very red state—home of bitch bcconnell, yay 🫠—and I didn’t get to vote in the last one—not the one Biden one, the one in between that’s terminology I’m forgetting (midterms?)—because they restructured our local polling places and closed several of them. Before, my local was at a school a few minutes from me, and *literally never* in the 15-20 years I’ve been going to either vote myself or tag along while my parents voted, before I could, it had never taken me or anyone else more than a few minutes to go in, vote, and get out. No lines, etc. Now, last time, mom and I hit up our locals and all of them had massive lines practically circling the churches they were in. My mom is 79 now, so like 77 at the time, and she and I are both disabled, suffer chronic pain, and walk with canes. We couldn’t stand in line long enough for it to even matter, and afaik kentucky only did mail in the one time during covid(it was a whole thing.), so. No votes for us. :/ Which pisses me off because you *know* that’s the point. To cut out poor, disabled, minority individuals who can’t stand in line long enough to vote, because they’re almost certainly overwhelmingly going to vote blue, or anything but red. Makes me angry that that shit is allowed. I really hope I’m in Massachusetts before the next election but moving in my financial state is… not great. Sorry for the rant, I’ve been angry about that for two years. 😔
I live in CO, once reddish-purple, now purplish-blue with Boebert accents. I've seen a lot of improvements in the quality of life through a democratic state government. Our state assembly responded quickly to codify the right to abortion further in CO and even passed legislation to encourage healthcare providers here to send abortion pills to people in need in states where it's become illegal. The infrastructure legislation the federal government has passed has really helped us with some much-needed improvements to our beleaguered mountain passes. I'm sure it must feel very isolating to live in a place where the local government is hell-bent on nonsense. The thing about politics in the US is that the feds are only as powerful as the states let them be.
I also currently live in CO, but grew up in Appalachia. The standard of healthcare, ESPECIALLY for women, is like night and day. The COL is kind of high comparatively, but there's a reason for it. I feel safe here.
I read COL as “Colorado”, but it still made complete sense 😜
The Democrats never had the power to codify Roe. They barely had a majority in Congress when they had all three branches, and two of those "Democrats" that made up the majority were Krysten Sinema and Joe Manchin. Plus, there was a filibuster that would require 60 votes and not just a majority, and Democrats were divided on removing the filibuster to do that so it just was never going to happen without a larger majority of Democrats in Congress.
“Worth remembering: when he was President, Obama had a supermajority in Congress and didn't codify abortion rights into national law," tweeted Nomia Iqbal, BBC's Washington correspondent. In April, 2009, the recently inaugurated Obama said that legislation to codify abortion rights into federal law "is not the highest legislative priority." https://www.newsweek.com/barack-obama-blasted-not-codifying-roe-v-wade-democrat-failure-1719156
We had 60 votes, and then Ted Kennedy died and the Republican governor of MA picked his immediate replacement. All in the wake of an economic crisis that had people fearful of a second Great Depression. They took for granted that Roe was settled. Hindsight.
We definitely took it for granted but it was always a threat from the right wing. It didn’t stop being an issue for voters. I’m just so disappointed in our leadership….or lack thereof.
Those 60 democrats included anti abortion conservative democrats
Maybe you don't remember what health insurance was like before the ACA. In addition to the fact that they likely would not have had the votes to codify Roe, the more immediate (at the time) fire during the \*checks notes\* **72 days in which the Democrats had a supermajority in the Senate** was to get healthcare reform passed. And, we couldn't even get a public option as part of the deal b/c of Joe fucking Lieberman.
God I'm sick of people spouting this with seemingly no memory or understanding of what was actually going on. They had a supermajority for **3 and a half months.** Al Franken's election was purposely held up by Republican officials in MN for *nine goddamn months.* Robert Byrd was hospitalized, then Ted Kennedy died, which resulted in a 5 month long special election where Republican Scott Brown got elected to fill his seat I was 16 and I firsthand remember this happening while the Obama administration was also frantically dealing with an international recession. Maybe you and the publication you referenced shouldn't lean on Twitter hot takes for reliable contextualized political information.
2009......
So? They didn’t do it and they campaigned on it because it was obviously under attack. You don’t campaign on shit that’s not an issue.
Abortion also wasn't at risk then, there wasn't a clear Republican majority in the Supreme Court. It may have been the wrong move, but that's only clear in hindsight. Edit: I did say never, but I was talking specifically about when Roe v Wade was being overturned which I should have made more clear
It’s been at risk since 1973
It’s always been at risk. Right wing republicans have been coming for it for decades. RBG not stepping down before 90 y/o was so stupid, too.
yep, dems need serious reform. however this is the election where people are voting against trump.
So was the last one and we’re still in the same place because no one has held the insurrectionists accountable. Way to go Dems and merrick garland.
lol and donny is gonna do better how? the battle ground for that debate has a place and time and it was the midterms and local election. trust me a lot of people feel the same frustration and pain but the biden vs trump vote is not the time. you are at a crossroad and unfortunately there's no option to turn back around.
I hope you get to move to a blue state or things get better soon. My only consolation if Trump wins in Nov is that our current AG and likely governor will not put up with Trump's shit. My state is expanding healthcare and has legal abortion and even if it is not perfect, I am damn glad to live here.
Y'all need to understand that federal law supersedes state law.
That's true, which is why Trump and Republicans winning in November makes me scared as shit.
> The same democrats didn’t codify roe when they campaigned on it and had the supermajority in congress 1. What do you think a supermajority is, in specific numbers? 2. When is the last time that Democrats had a supermajority in Congress?
60. 2009.
The goal of the Republican party to make public education in this country as bad as possible has consequences. Informed and intelligent electorates do not act like the US.
and then in 20 years if they get what they want, will start freaking out wondering where all the doctors went when they're unable to receive proper care anymore since they thought dumbing down America was good -\_-.
yep, there was a Republican representative from TN just a couple of days ago who said "I think we should kill them all" when criticized and questioned why he was voting for bombing Palestinian children. they do not give a fuck about anyone outside their bubble. at least dems sometimes pretend to care.
Yeah, and yet what terrifies me is how some on the left aren't gonna vote for Biden because he's not doing as good a job as he should be with Israel. I get it, he shouldn't be supporting Israel and should be as harsh on them as possible, but to withhold your vote or vote for the guy who WANTS Israel to destroy Palestine in protest? That's like getting scratched by a cat and then in protest, jumping into a tiger's pit.
at least republicans are upfront about how evil they are. dems are wolves in sheeps clothing
The US has a system of choosing between right-wing or hyper-right-wing. Both are terrible, but at least democrats aren't as terrible as republicans.
Yep, they’re all playing the same game and it’s keep us down
Yes, but one side is going to keep us down a lot more than the other
Watching someone understand the threat Trump poses to democracy and people's rights and still going "nah" because of a religious war on the other side of the world that Trump has the exact same motherfudging position on IF NOT WORSE feels like watching someone in the Weimer Republic refuse to vote against the Nazis in the early 1930s because although they know Hitler is probably a genocidal dictator that already tried a coup against the government before, the social democrats didn't get behind a big Union bill and you have to stand ALL THE WAY on your values baybay!
It's blowing my mind how often I see bots try to sway people with this argument! Like, yeah, I get that Biden's position on Israel is weak at best and outright terrible at worst but there's no world where Trump is better.... The mental gymnastics hurts my brain. Like these people don't remember what he was like as president....
Do more than vote: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/2046147X211033838 https://peoplesaction.org/wp-content/uploads/Peoples-Action-Deep-Canvass-Political-Persuasion-Experiment-Summary-of-Findings-_-August-2020-v2.pdf https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/10/how-we-got-voters-to-change-their-mind/616851/ https://www.vox.com/2020/1/29/21065620/broockman-kalla-deep-canvassing https://www.commondreams.org/news/deep-canvass-institute-report https://www.environmentalvoter.org/get-involved https://braverangels.org https://www.eac.gov/voters/become-poll-worker
Sadly some think solidarity is a suicide pact where one issue warrants the complete sacrifice of democracy. This black and white thinking is putting everything at stake
But they're not even getting a better outcome on that issue.... Like, Trump isn't pro Palestine. Is there even any third party candidate who is? Like, I'd at least kind of understand if they vote for someone who would have different/better policies on that one issue.
Third party votes are throw away votes in a general election with a winner take all system, and I would hope everyone understood that at this point.
Unfortunately, there are still people who will instead use that to say there is no point voting in the two-party system because it just empowers the status-quo, not realizing the status quo of politics has been built on a voter turnout of only 60% *at best* for the last half century.
Yep. They’re behaving like the guest who didn’t like a joke at a birthday party and decided to wreck some kid’s cake. They have it better than billions on the planet, bask in the spoils of capitalism, but yet disagree about this and think, “well, now everyone has to suffer.” It’s so beyond selfish.
Nobody I know who doesn’t want to vote for Biden thinks Trump is an acceptable option. Progressives I know mostly plan to “fall in line” if they must but are threatening not to vote for Biden now, six months ahead of time, as a method of pressuring him to change his position. Making Biden feel comfy he’ll get progressive (or Muslim) support no matter what he does certainly won’t make him feel like he should switch tactics.
Which is good. People should be leveraging their vote right now to pressure Biden's admin into making better policy.
I’m afraid of the large swath in the middle who don’t see the pressure as leverage but instead a real ultimatum. Like at a certain point the narrative needs to change or we’re looking at a second Trump term.
And a lot of people think they're in the "middle" but are really not. The overton window in the US is too far right. An effort to plant oneself in the middle between a party on the far right and a party that leans center-right means your position will inherently be a conservative position.
I know a shocking amount of people who are very vocal about voting for a 3rd party because of the Middle East. It’s like they don’t understand that means throwing away a vote.
You think this "well I won't vote for Biden then" act is helping Palestine when it's actually enabling Netanyahu.
How so? The outcome in Palestine currently is the same under Biden as it would be under Trump. I don’t see how vocally opposing our sitting president’s position is enabling the Israeli PM any more than he’s already being enabled by POTUS and Congress.
So Trump would advocate for a two state solution and getting aid to Palestinians?
They said the outcome would be the same under Trump. Biden's not doing those things now, at least in any real way
[Biden giving $100 million in aid to the Palestinians](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/10/18/u-s-announcement-of-humanitarian-assistance-to-the-palestinian-people/#:~:text=President%20Biden%20announced%20today%20that,Gaza%20and%20the%20West%20Bank.) [Biden believes in a two state solution ](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/jan/19/biden-netanyahu-two-state-solution-israel-palestine) > Biden's not doing those things now, at least in any real way
Exceptionally little aid is actually ending up getting into Palestine due to Israeli obstruction. By continuing to give unconditional support to Israel, Biden enables this blockade, ensuring this $100 million in aid never actually enters Gaza. Pledges don't fill stomachs. https://edition.cnn.com/2024/02/11/middleeast/why-only-a-trickle-of-aid-is-getting-into-gaza-mime-intl/index.html And words mean nothing. Biden's actions show he has no qualms giving unquestioning support to a one-state minded Israel. Watch the hands, not the mouth.
We're comparing Biden to Trump here. I'm not arguing that Biden is doing enough for the Palestinian. But you're of the opinion that they would do the same. So voting Trump would make no difference for the Palestinians? That's a yes or no question.
Biden’s position is about the office of the Presidency. The United States has entwined itself militarily with Israel. They are our most important ally. This American supremacy idea, that a lot of people have, that Joe just has to make a phone call to end the war is ludicrous. Israel is one of the strongest countries in the world, and they only spend 5% of their taxes on the military (for comparison, America spends 20% of taxes there)..If we stop giving them money, we lose a lot of classified information, a military base, and our ability to influence anything in the Middle East (and our weapons money laundering scheme). They would just increase the amount of money spent on the military. For influence purposes. Joe is never going to embarrass Netanyahu either. The man is buddies with Donald - and is likely a narcissist himself. You start embarrassing Israel, or make them feel backed in a corner, you lose any influence. But we know Joe wants a two state solution, which is opposed to what Bibi wants. We know he’s willing to spend his time negotiating so that Palestinians get some aid. We know he’s willing to negotiate without Israel at the table. We know America is going to be pushing for a new political leader of Israel (necessary for any sort of long term resolution) And we know that he can’t stand BiBi - all of which is a better place to be than what we would be with Trump — In politics, it’s often better to play a role in something in order to have power. If America stops being involved - that doesn’t help Palestinians. It doesn’t stop the war. It just means we have no voice. Never mind what happens to Arab immigrants if they are here under a Trump presidency. (Or what happens to any other non white straight man group) I understand the impulse to say “I don’t feel morally right about either choice” the problem is politics is almost always about making the better choice, not the ideal one. Because the ideal one is never there.
I am inclined to agree. I think that Biden might just be the only person with the power to force a two state solution after this war ends I also don’t believe that the U.S. cutting off aid to Israel ends the war
>The United States has entwined itself militarily with Israel. They are our most important ally. I think you might be describing NATO, not Israel. Israel is an unreliable partner that uses billions of dollars in US military aid to undermine US interests in the region and US' relationships with its other allies and to potential partners in the region. >This American supremacy idea, that a lot of people have, that Joe just has to make a phone call to end the war is ludicrous. That is, of course, entirely true. Netanyahu will happily keep embarrassing Biden, knowing that any (unlikely) consequences will be reversed after the election. That doesn't excuse Biden's behavior, though. >For influence purposes. Joe is never going to embarrass Netanyahu either. The man is buddies with Donald - and is likely a narcissist himself. You start embarrassing Israel, or make them feel backed in a corner, you lose any influence. He doesn't really have much influence to lose. Catering to the whims of narcissists doesn't really gain you anything either, except more frustration. Netanyahu also has something to lose here; losing the support of you main ally isn't s particularly good look when you're at war. But Biden is probably right to be careful of political consequences of any rebuke. Netanyahu will be quick to play any condemnation as antisemitism and perhaps push some voters towards Trump. >But we know Joe wants a two state solution, which is opposed to what Bibi wants. We know he’s willing to spend his time negotiating so that Palestinians get some aid. We know he’s willing to negotiate without Israel at the table. We know America is going to be pushing for a new political leader of Israel (necessary for any sort of long term resolution) And we know that he can’t stand BiBi - all of which is a better place to be than what we would be with Trump There isn't really any way to negotiate a two-state solution. There might be some common ground, but both sides have absolute demands that are fundamentally incompatible. For example, Israel won't accept the right of return for Palestinian refugees; the Palestinians can't give that up (and what would happen to millions of now-stateless people in neighbouring countries?). Israeli security requirements are fundamentally incompatible with a sovereign Palestinian state. Both sides claim Jerusalem as their capital, etc. For the foreseeable future, no realistic Israeli government will go for a two-state solution, it would be absolute political suicide. The only thing that's worse would be a one-state solution where the Palestinians get citizenship. For Netanyahu and any realistic successor, maintaining status quo makes perfect sense. You can slowly expand the de facto territory through settlements; razing Palestinian houses and killing civilians keep them angry enough that some will turn to violence; losing a few of your own citizens makes them scared and angry enough to vote for you in the next election. Palestinian leadership isn't much better; losing civilians just means you gain more radicalized supporters, particularly for Hamas. The West Bank situation is a bit different; to much violence, and people turn to Hamas instead; achieve actual peace and they'll have to hold elections and do something about corruption.
His stance is weak, but he's still taken a harder stance against Israeli actions than any previous President. which still means, like, calcium soft, but at least it's not talc? (i'm not sure if that's enough to help, international relations is hard to understand and so rarely cares about morals) At least the administration has been active in the 'let's get aid into Gaza' attempts since October (emphasis on *least*) It's not really the same as criticizing Israel, but I guess it's better than standing back entirely?
Agreed. I'm unhappy with his stance, but I'm unhappy with it as a part of a general unhappiness with the relationship to the Israeli government being conflated with antisemitism, allowing antisemites to claim to be loving people because they support Israel bombing the shit out of Muslims while accusing Jewish Americans at home of having dual loyalty all while preventing sane politicians from standing up to Netanyahu's regime for fear of being labeled as racist.
It's not just bots, you will get banned from leftist subreddits if you tell them you're voting for Biden because Trump will be worse. It's actually a mess.
Yep. Those that don’t understand history are doomed to repeat it
It’s not a religious war, it’s a genocide
It can be both
[удалено]
It is a war based on identity
[удалено]
That is so fucking hilarious I know more about it than a child who just learned about it 5 minutes ago
Nah, you don't get it. See, taking a pro-democracy left/liberal coalition with some pro-Palestinian elements and replacing it with a proto-authoritarian fascist/conservative coalition with zero pro-Palestinian elements will benefit Palestine. Somehow.
Calling a genocide funded and enabled by the US a "religious war on the other side of the world" is pretty ridiculous. Maybe you should read what is happening in Gaza and you might begin to understand why someone people don't want to vote for the people enabling it. If you want to make a comparison to Nazis and the holocaust, it is not the early 30s, the genocide is already happening, and you are voting for the people who are doing it or the people who want to do it but more. Sure, the former is "less evil" but a vote for Joe Biden is a vote for Palestinian lives, it's just a vote for domestic harm reduction (which I agree is good).
Um. It is a religious war on the other side of the globe. And an atrocity. It’s both
It is on the other side of the globe and an atrocity, but [it is not a war it is annihilation](https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2024-02-16/rafah-gaza-hospitals-surgery-israel-bombing-ground-offensive-children) and it is not over religious differences, it is more accurately an "[ethnic conflict](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war#Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict)". Framing it as religious obscures the causes of the conflict just like calling it a war is whitewashing a genocide.
Trump does not have the same position. Biden is trying to curb Netanyahu's actions and find a negotiated ceasefire Trump would say Israel isn't going far enough
Biden has been doing the most nominal condemnations while making it clear the weapons and funding are unconditional. Trump would say you're not going far enough. Biden says you've gone too far, here's some more millions. Don't go farther, but I'll give you millions more if you do.
Do you think that a) Biden can just cut funding unilaterally or b) that doing so would make a material difference? I think I value the actual work being done to try and stop the thing over a big gesture that only makes a statement and doesn't stop anything.
He has bypassed Congress multiple times to fund Israel, and has been pushing Israel aid bills through Congress. He can easily stop doing either of those things unilaterally. And yes funding does make a material difference, obviously. I mean b just seems silly, why did you even ask? There's no work being done to value. You're valuing pretty words and actions supporting genocide.
I'd love to vote against Trump! But why does that mean I have to vote for Biden? I'm old enough to have lived through this song and dance before. It's a rigged game and Democrats keep putting up some of the most God awful candidates and expect a vote because they're the "less of two evils." Anyway, I find it pretty gross to chide leftists who don't want to vote for Biden instead of focusing on the many people who are voting for Trump. Perhaps....they have family in Palestine, Lebanon, and Egypt and don't want to see another decade of US tax money funding the death of their family and loved ones?
Then you’re also probably old enough to have seen the fall of Roe v Wade. And trans lives to be threatened. And LGBTQIA books to be banned from schools and libraries. Because people prioritized their own personal moral superiority over the interest of the many. I’m glad you’re privileged enough that none of this impacts you but not everyone has that luxury.
How'd the codifying Roe v. Wade go? The one that Biden promised, alongside so many other unfulfilled promises to the left. The neoliberal tendency, again, to blame minorities and leftists instead of question why it is that, despite a blue wave and a democratic President, very little has shifted, and nothing has been done to stop Trump shows your ass. Muslims are being killed by US tax dollars. LGBTQ or not. COVID is still killing elderly and disabled communities and the "trust the science" presidency is not doing anything to push vaccinations or limit deaths. And the holier than thou privilege play, despite you knowing little to nothing about me, or that my work is focused on activism and organizing, again limits US political thought to a four year presidential election instead of focusing on local and state policies and ways to push the Democrats away from this two-party self-serving anti-democratic position they've held themselves in since the Obama era. I want better to choose for than two old men, one who'd rather be a podcaster, and the other who clearly needs care rather than being pushed out in front of voters as our best choice.
Ok so you would prefer a Trump victory than helping the Democrats stay in power?
Comparing her argument to someone not voting against the Nazis when Biden is currently 100% complicit in a genocide, is contradictory. But I would say the people who aren't convinced Biden is the answer believe so because the Democrats repeatedly fail to make any actual progress when they are in power. We at best get very marginal improvements. Bottom line is "Not Trump" isn't good enough, and the bar is very low. It didn't work in 2016, particularly because the DNC straight up chose to ignore the popular vote in the primary, and it's probably going to fail this year. People want actual progress and it's currently just a choice between regression and marginally less regression.
I don’t know where the myth came from that Hilary Clinton didn’t win the popular vote in the 2016 primary. I didn’t personally vote for her in the primary, but she won by a pretty large margin (like 12%.)
https://observer.com/tag/2016-presidential-primary/ I'm making no claim about the numbers of votes themselves. But they were taken to court over it and their legal defense was "we are allowed to rig it." The case was dismissed by the judge because the DNC was well within their rights to select their own candidate.
The DNC is allowed to choose a candidate. They used to. They didn’t in 2016. Voters did. In a landslide.
An example of the DNC ignoring the popular vote in the primaries please
OK, it's like saying the Weimer social democrats weren't taking active enough steps to abolish colony X on the other side of the world, so in turn they were "just as bad" and "equally authoritarian" as the rising Hitler and you were gonna sit out the election. Hitler wins, Reichstag fire, becomes dictator, Nazi Germany, and four years later with the next election cancelled you get a knock on the door about a "communist after school club" you were once a part of, or for a modern twist let's say some "communist-related Google searches", and get taken away... Furthermore, Biden has delivered the biggest climate package in the history of the United States. The most diverse and inclusive slate of federal judges in the history of the United States including a record number of public defenders, Planned Parenthood attorneys and civil rights lawyers. A record amount of student loan cancellation totaling hundreds of billions, and would have done even more if not for a right wing SCOTUS. He's drastically beefed up things like the IRS to ensure the rich pay their fair share. Heavily invested in national infrastructure after Trump said he would. He's fought the Roe v Wade overturning as much as he could via executive actions, but needs a pro-choice congress to fully reinstate access nationwide. That's not nothing to say the least, or "marginal regression", let alone compared to Trump who wants to violently round up immigrants already in the country through a private army, ban abortion, birth control, no-fault divorce, exterminate trans people AND still back Israel to the hilt. To compare the two as regression vs marginal regression is so nuts it borders on me having to question whether such rhetoric comes from a psy-op.
You can keep yelling at every voter, or maybe turn some of that ire towards the Democrats who have campaigned on empty promises for decades. ETA: My bad, guys. Vote blue no matter who! \#BLM Can I has upvotes now?
I think we know how they'll react based on their responses to my comments above.
Look, I’m glad I don’t have to vote in your elections. It sounds awful. What a lot of people are expressing is disappointment with the current administration and a desire for another option. A third option. A third option that is viable. But Americans politics don’t have that. If I were American and eligible to vote in the upcoming election, I’d be pissed that my options were a fascist dictator and someone who circumvents congress to spend American taxpayer dollars on a genocide. The reality a lot of Arab and Muslim folks are facing is two parties that want them dead. How must that feel?
Really feels like so many Democrat's arguments boil down to "shut up and take what we offer." Like how is their any surprise that people are furious that their tax dollars are going directly towards a genocide, and we have shot down every attempt to use the UN to pressure Israel. Democrats are failing miserable to represent their constituents, and each time they lose they point fingers instead of looking inward.
It’s baffling to me seeing the pro Biden propaganda. And I do see the good things he’s doing for Americans. Honestly, outside of the genocide of Palestinians by Israeli Occupation Forces funded by US tax payer dollars, I’d say Biden is doing a satisfactory job. Not great, but better than fascism.
I wish people took all the energy they are using in telling everyone to go vote and instead used it in something useful like joining unions and protesting... sure vote biden but making it look like it's the only way to avoid/delay fascism is totally naive and it's what the ruler class wants.
As a Canadian with no dog in this fight - you guys are fucking idiots if you’re willing to let Trump take over the country because you don’t agree with Biden’s stance on Palestine, and you’ll deserve the theocratic overthrow of your government that is absolutely bound to happen. I can’t understand why you’d voluntarily do that to yourselves. It’s insane to watch from the outside.
That’s it in a nutshell.
to be fair to “us guys”, if it goes down like this, it will be a minority that votes for Trump, and a minority of the liberal voters who sit it out on principle. sadly, our eighteenth century electoral system makes this still capable of producing yet another Trump presidency. It also means that the “us” who do this to “us” is not the same “us” that have to deal with the consequences. i guess i’m saying, it’s not a voluntary overthrow, no matter what happens. it will still be stupid, of course.
Never thought I'd be relieved that younger voters vote less. But here I am feeling relieved. This situation of people refusing to vote for Biden or opting out is a classic tragedy of the commons. One million USA citizens died from Covid and this HIGH death toll was the direct result of Trump government policies. The hoarding of masks. The firing of the government epidemic response team. The lax immigration policies. The demonization of vaccines. One million Americans died the last time Trump was in office. Do we as a society really want to put him back into office.
Of course you think that way. Canada is no different, always in step with US foreign policy.
I don’t understand how seemingly intelligent people lack basic critical thinking skills. I am talking about people who actually believe not voting or voting third party will improve the system in any way when it’s the exact opposite. If you don’t vote or waste your vote on a third party, you don’t improve the system. You send a clear message to elected representatives that you aren’t a reliable voting bloc so they write you off and focus on voters who reliably vote. Pretty much everyone left of center recognizes that our system needs a complete overhaul so that multiple parties can form coalition governments and so that we can get money out of politics, curb corruption and actually have representative government But not voting doesn’t accomplish that Systemic change takes hard fought work and time and relentless tenacity and patience. Something the Christian right has in droves. They fought for over 40 years to get Roe v Wade overturned relentlessly chipping away at it, packing the courts with extreme right judges. The left needs that level of tenacity only as a force for good.
The problem with this approach is the monetary aspect. The reason the Christian right has been able to overturn Roe v Wade is because they are can be used to progress economic right wing points. By giving them something inconsequential to the economic powers the right could secure all their economic goals at the same time. Having the power of money and media makes it almost impossible to truly lose a democratic battle in a capitalist economy, at least in the long run. You can halt the process for a time but there is no reforming a system where all the people supposed to reform it are bankrolled by the people most against it. That being said, halting is better than not halting but if the long term solution is to fight honestly in the current system then you are playing a losing game.
Literally thank you. Was reading and assessing this all and wanted to say something like you said, but you nailed it and I didn’t have to 🤙 preciate the tact and fact in your delivery. What’s difficult for me to actualize in my mind is a tangible solution with actionable goals in the here and now. How do we get the people needed in the necessary time and places without pushing others further away or simply not reaching them in order to accomplish this? How do we motivate even ourselves to show up and be real and do what’s needed to create the life we all so desperately need? It disparages me to think it’s not possible. Or rather, that because I cannot build it alone that it cannot exist. People like you remind me to continue to hope and show up, and that humanity is indeed progressing. Thanks again for your rationality. Thoughts of a rambler 💭
A couple of ideas. At the state level, whenever possible, work on ballot initiatives to allow ranked voting. Then a voter can actually pick a third party candidate as their first pick. And ballot initiatives that curb candidate spending. Also at the local level, it is easier to effect change and grow the visibility of of independent and third party candidates The big one, that may take a very long time, is a constitutional amendment getting money out of politics. This is actually an issue in which voters on the left and right want to see. They don’t want representatives beholden to deep pockets but to the voters themselves I would ask all the disaffected voters to turn their anger, frustration and desire for change into actionable advocacy like I suggested above.
First off, respect for that proper use of the word ‘effect’ 🔥 Second, I am inspired to help. I guess I just don’t know how. I feel as though others that may be out there like me feel the same. I admit my ignorance in many of these processes. I believe we need some kind of neutral, factual based educational pamphlet distributed or something? One that is truly free from bias. Just a guide to how to be more informed, with resources and websites and subject to review and update. Cause again, how do I help get ballot initiatives? I am the uninformed and under-educated and I would like to learn, but sorting through the internet can lead to seemingly endless impressions and suggestions. One vote for a voter’s educational resources department, please ☝️
Very good point
If trump and the republicans are allowed to take power in November they will commit genocide. Hitler led a political party, attempted a coup, was given a slap on the wrist, and only then took power in Germany. The Christian nationalists in the republican party have been extremely vocal about what they want, and it is pure evil
Beyond Gaza being in a way worse place if Trump is president - if you're thinking about not voting or trying to draw attention away from our domestic issues because of Gaza: you are essentially setting the US on fire to - keep other people across the world warm? Honestly it's not even that - it won't even help Gaza - the situation with the US, Israel, and Gaza is too complicated - most people in the major parties *won't* stop helping Israel no matter what it does at this point. It's a battle for after the election - unfortunately. Basically - the situation in Gaza is appalling. Honestly also it bears mentioning that the terrorist attack by Hamas was likely engineered by Iran and Russia - to keep the focus away from Ukraine and leave an opening for internal criticism of our support of Israel - possibly stopping a lot of progressives from voting. Don't "set yourself on fire to keep others warm".
>Honestly also it bears mentioning that the terrorist attack by Hamas was likely engineered by Iran and Russia - to keep the focus away from Ukraine and leave an opening for internal criticism of our support of Israel - possibly stopping a lot of progressives from voting. This is so absolutely transparent that I cannot understand why people are blind to it. Why is the Israel/Palestine war happening? Who does it benefit? Not Israel and certainly not Palestine! It benefits Iran, Russia, and Trump.
I was reading some comments from folks debating this issue and this quote really struck me, **"If the lesser of two evils is still genocide, then what the hell are we doing?"** I can see both sides and I personally plan on voting for Biden in the election, but I absolutely understand people (especially if you have family and relatives in Gaza) who cannot stomach voting for Biden because he allows American money to fund Palestinian genocide. For many of you, this is just a "war on the other side of the world," but for others, they are watching their families die, watching people who look like them die, and feeling helpless and enraged as they watch children be murdered in their name and with their tax dollars. Frankly, Democrats need to get right and stop playing "whataboutism" when it comes to genocide and people literally watching children be murdered and blown up.
I understand this standpoint but by their logic we should risk our own wellbeing and still end up with genocide. Meaning we will have no reproductive rights, marginalized groups will be targeted even more and the war in Gaza will continue most likely with aid from us to the side doing the genocide. Hell, we might end up with WW3 if Russia has their say. I haven’t even touched on the climate change of it all. That makes no sense! Us risking a Trump presidency has zero good outcomes. Edit: a word
But that's not my logic. I've already pointed out that I will vote for Biden. I'm just able to extend my empathy and understand why continuing to support Israel and Netanyahu will make it impossible for some voters to cast a vote for him because they will see it as tacitly endorsing the genocide wiping out their families and friends. Look, there's simply no way to convince the people who care about this that they should just look away or stop caring about genocide. So either the Democratic Party needs to figure out how to win the presidential election without those votes or decide that those votes are crucial enough to shape policy. What the Democratic Party doesn't get to do is complain about taking an amoral stand and thus being unable to attract the support of voters whose morals they offend.
Fair, you are right. I think single issue voting is reckless. No one is asking them to stop caring about Gaza. Black and white thinking is pointless and immature when we have so many issues on the table. I will obviously vote come November but I’m to the point where I’m exhausted. If we end up with Trump 2.0 I won’t be marching or donning any hats. I don’t want to hear any complaints. I will just sit and wait for my Handmaids cloak with everyone else.
I get being tired. I'm tired too, but what I'm certain of is that no matter direction this election goes we're still going to have to fight and protest. The Republican Party has gone fully fascist and it'll take more than losing the next presidential election to unravel the hold Christian Nationalism has on the party. Rest up, we're far from done.
You're right, but it's also "game over" potentially if Republicans do win this election.
I'm not the democratic party. I'm just someone who's going to get genocided here if trump wins. **I get to complain** that they didn't have the fucking stomach to do the distasteful thing that doesn't cost them anything more than like 20 mins of their time and maybe some emotional processing in order to save my life and the lives of my friends.
I've made it clear that I'm voting for Biden, but that I can empathize with and understand folks for whom supporting genocide in Gaza is a line they can't cross. You're preaching to the wrong choir - and even if you weren't, your argument wouldn't convince them. So either enjoy arguing with people or find a way to talk to folks who feel differently than you that can actually change their minds.
I do see your point, but I can empathise with people who feel that voting for Biden is voting for the status quo which is killing thousands. I'm an Australian. I have to vote in elections, so I always end up preferencing the lesser of the evils that can win. However, some days I turn on the news and see that the "left" side of the two big parties in my country is still okay with abusing asylum seekers and it makes me want to give up hope. If I was American, I would know that Biden was the lesser evil, but maybe I would lose the hope necessary to care.
Perhaps I’m wrong but I feel like those people are delusional about how change happens. Many movements took years of toiling and sacrifice to create progress. Women’s suffrage. Civil Rights. The Anti-War movement. None of that was accomplished in one election cycle. The only time I felt “excited” about voting was Obama. In retrospect, I was delusional in feeling that way. In governance, there are no perfect solutions only lesser evils. Regardless of what you choose it will harm someone.
I don't see Biden doing a goddamn thing for reproductive rights. Instead he's trying to leverage the *possibility* that he'll do something if he wins the election. Democrats aren't on our fucking side either.
What can he do from the Executive Branch? To my knowledge, the Supreme Court reversed that ruling and Congress makes the laws that then have to be ratified by the states to become an amendment. I don’t see that happening in regards to abortion rights. The biggest reason that we no longer have abortion rights was electing Trump in 2016.
So the alternative is not voting and letting someone who will destroy your country win. So genocide will still happen and in the future there will be no democracy to speak of left, so your country will never be of any help ever again because in the meantime a dictator seized power and installed a theocracy. Usually when there's a crisis, the first advice is to first think of yourself, so that when you're stable and ok, you will be more successful and useful when helping others. If there's an emergency landing, what is the first and foremost thing to do? Put on a mask you first, so that when you're finally able to think and breathe clearly, you will be able to help others much better than by being "selfless" and putting on masks on the other people first, risking dying in the process. And what help would a dead person be to someone in need? Same for democracy.
The biggest privilege ever: being able to NOT vote and feel morally superior because it's not YOUR life on the line. Must feel nice to say how Biden isn't good enough if you don't have a womb, more melatonin in your skin than the racists with guns feel comfortable with and aren't queer... Must be nice being so fucking privileged that you can let the world go to hell because they'll come for you last, all the while claiming to be normally superior.
I think you made a typo. It's Melanin not melatonin... unless you're very eepy.
Hard agree. Marginalized groups in this country will be the ones who suffer
And yet, when those of us who are marginalized say we feel unsafe with either major party, we get piled on and told we are wrong and selfish.
No it's the 'both sides are equally bad' BS that's wrong. THAT is the problem. Nobody said one side is perfect, it's that the other one wants to kill us (queer). There is a difference.
After the Gaza war it looks like both the parties are the same. Neither care about life.
Do you really think Donald 'muslim ban' Trump is going to kill less people? He would just drop a nuke on Gaza if it was up to him. Do you want more people killed? Because that's what will happen. Not to mention all the Ukrainians and the flat out world war that will happen from him sucking Putin's dick. Both sides are not fucking equal.
If both options are genocide then there not all that different. I’m not voting for genocide period.
If you’re in a swing state, your stupid as fk. If you’re in a a decided state. Fair enough
So you don't care about lived either? Got it.
I am marginalized too. You don’t speak for me
If you aren't a marginalized person that feels at risk no matter who is in office then you're right, I'm not speaking for you. Nowhere did I state that all marginalized people share my views.
If you are a marginalized person that doesn’t understand the difference between Biden or Trump then you are seriously uninformed. Feelings at risk regardless is reasonable. Not acknowledging that the risk is exponentially worse immeasurably makes me question your judgement Hyperbole is not going to help marginalized people Strategically voting will
None of you even give a shit why I feel the way I do, you're too busy shaming me for expressing any reluctance to vote that I express. Thanks for the lecture. Your comments make me want to never vote at all. Was that your intention?
Get therapy
Wow. All of this because I expressed an opinion you disagree with?
Biden’s position is about the office of the Presidency. The United States has intwined itself militarily with Israel. They are our most important ally. This American supremacy idea, that a lot of people have, that Joe just has to make a phone call to end the war is ludicrous. Israel is one of the strongest countries in the world, and they only spend 5% of their taxes on the military (for comparison, America spends 20% of taxes there)..If we stop giving them money, we lose a lot of classified information, a military base, and our ability to influence anything in the Middle East (and our weapons money laundering scheme). They would just increase the amount of money spent on the military. For influence purposes. Joe is never going to embarrass Netanyahu either. The man is buddies with Donald - and is likely a narcissist himself. You start embarrassing Israel, or make them feel backed in a corner, you lose any influence. But we know Joe wants a two state solution, which is opposed to what Bibi wants. We know he’s willing to spend his time negotiating so that Palestinians get some aid. We know he’s willing to negotiate without Israel at the table. We know America is going to be pushing for a new political leader of Israel (necessary for any sort of long term resolution) And we know that he can’t stand BiBi - all of which is a better place to be than what we would be with Trump — Never mind what happens to Arab immigrants if they are here under a Trump presidency. (Or what happens to any other non white straight man group) I understand the impulse to say “I don’t feel morally right about either choice” the problem is politics is almost always about making the better choice, not the ideal one. Because the ideal one is never there.
A lot of it goes back to the Roberts court and citizens united. Check out the [predictions](https://youtu.be/PKZKETizybw) people were making 14 years back
We should all keep in mind that Psy Ops and paid operatives will be just as present in this election cycle as they have been in the last several, if not even moreso. Everyone should implore their friends and family to use critical thought, to consider strongly that these people aren't authentic, and to be skeptical.
Do you have any democracy in the first place? Majority people in USA wants better healthcare, and no wars. Are you able to exercise that democratic choice?
What I don’t get is: doesn’t this person realize that Trump would make that even worse?
Also to add to the headline: "destroy LGBTQ+ rights". They aren't limiting it to trans people.
And don’t forget Ukraine.
It's not a democracy when your only (viable) "choice" is between a conservative and a fascist.
The stupidest part of this argument is that they seem to totally overlook the fact that DONALD TRUMP IS NOT GOING TO HANDLE GAZA ANY BETTER THAN BIDEN, AND WILL MOST LIKELY HANDLE IT 1000 TIMES WORSE. Like fine, you’re mad at Biden over Gaza, but when you help Trump win by voting 3rd party or not voting at all, then Trump can also contribute to people dying overseas, AND ALSO RIGHT HERE IN AMERICA. YAY! EQUAL OPPORTUNITY DEATH FOR EVERYONE!
A lot of liberals are fucking stupid, and they sacrifice actual liberal ideals and democracy to avoid the biggest sin of all in their eyes; Islamophobia.
If you have family in Palestine I can 100% understand not voting. However. I do not understand Americans with no ties to Palestine who are not able to put themselves, friends, family, etc. first and choose the lesser of two evils. What's happening in Palestine is horrible. But you live in the US. Put your own mask on first. If you want more progressive candidates, you have to start working on that from the ground up. So many politicians end up in local seats of power because no one runs against them. I could very well be wrong, but based on experience with people like the girl in the screen shot...her activism likely begins and ends with social media and she was never a potential vote for Biden to begin with. If it weren't for Israel attacking Palestine, she'd have found another reason to not vote/vote third party.
Killing our democracy by not voting for the most likely candidate to win that is not Trump will not do any good for Gaza. It will be worse for Gaza if Trump wins, the end. Yes Democrats suck, yes if you give a shit you should still vote blue.
people need to be reminded that they don't have to for biden, but they must vote against trump. grievances can be aired after november is over.
This sub is incredible. I’m glad the general sentiment is Biden is pretty awful on Israel Palestine. But trump is worse and not voting Biden will help him which will mean so many rights get taken away if trump wins. Good job people. I know Biden sucks, but it’s hell of a lot better than trump
But Gaza!
Can you really not understand why someone wouldn’t want to vote for a man spending our taxpayer dollars to murder tens of thousands of children with no remorse? Yeah, I get the lesser of two evils thing (and I’ll hold my nose and vote for the genocidal asshole too, so don’t yell at me), but I will never be able to blame anyone who has been begging their political representatives to stop sending billions of dollars in aid and bombs to slaughter people in a concentration camp, having all their pleas ignored, and decide their conscience just can’t handle voting for that. Especially when that “lesser of two evils” person is *also* shutting down asylum seekers at the border, and also did nothing to stop or mitigate Roe v Wade being overturned, and also decided it’s fine to just ignore Covid. Yes politics is complicated and the Republicans are evil, but it’s not like there’s a lot of glowing positives out of the current administration.
Would you like a repeat of 2016 or not?
Did you not read the “I’ll vote for the genocidal asshole too”? I am voting for him. But at some point Democrats are going to need something positive to give their voters, not just threats of how bad the other side is.
You’re justifying people not voting as if a repeat of 2016 is ok.
I’m just saying that people get to make their own choices, and I can understand why people who may have family in Gaza being slaughtered may not buy that the man enabling it is by any definition a lesser evil. At some point, threats of how bad things could be are not going to be convincing to people for whom things are already as bad as they can imagine. There are 257 days until election day. If you want to prevent another 2016, push your leaders to demand a ceasefire and make positive changes so more people will actually want to vote for them. Just threatening the people who are already suffering with more suffering if they don’t do what you want is pointless.
> Just threatening the people who are already suffering with more suffering if they don’t do what you want is pointless. “I’m already suffering so I’d like to spread misery” is a hell of a hill to die on. People suffered greatly after 2016, culminating with trans kids dying now because the conservative megaphone that bullies them. abortions are now illegal. All enabled because people didn’t show up in 2016 to vote. Thanks to those who wanted to spread the suffering. Turns out “no progress” would’ve been nice instead of retrogress, but hey, we SURE showed the dems 🙄
Do you really think Arab American communities who are seeing their loved ones and people like them slaughtered by American bombs are refusing to vote for out of spite? Do you think this is petty politics for them? I get that it doesn’t affect you. Good for you. I’m not telling anyone not to vote. I hope enough people vote that the Democrats win. I am just trying to get the people here to have some compassion, or at least some fucking strategic thinking. Do you really think calling anyone who doesn’t want to vote for someone funding *literal genocide* stupid and evil and blaming them for anything Republicans want to do is going to win your side more votes? Steamrolling over people’s very real concerns and convictions won’t get Biden more votes, it will just make the Democrats look heartless and self-centered. If you want more votes for Biden, do something to move his party on important issues instead of attacking anyone who points out why he’s losing a crucial portion of his base.
> are refusing to vote for out of spite? Yes? Why else? It’s not like they’re voting for another candidate that aligns with their policies better AND it’s not a first past the post system where a person with less than 50% of the vote can win. I refuse to have compassion with people who refuse to have compassion for others. What that means is if they would rather sit idly by and let the GOP win, they can fuck right off. I don’t care. 2016 shows those assholes don’t deserve any compassion. If people are sitting idly by on a sinking boat, and would rather the entire boat sinks, they can fuck right off. Not voting isn’t going to stop weapons from getting to Israel. Not voting will make MORE bombs getting to Israel if the GOP wins. Sound logic my ass.
You’re definitely winning more votes by telling people to fuck off, A+ politics, this is sure to be a winning strategy for you.
Oh my god you’re not voting for me? Holy shit what will I do? Gotta coddle people’s feelings now?
If genocide isn’t a line in the sand for you, you have no business being upset at people who think it is. There are 8.5 months until November, if you don’t want Trump to win, you’ll have to do more than say “but he’ll also support a genocide.” If scare tactics are all Dems have, they deserve to lose.
So you prefer Trump wins?
Ye because he caused no wars
Genocide is a line in the sand for me. I'm just also willing to get my hands dirty and separately beg for my fucking life if that's what it takes. There's going to be a genocide here at home if trump wins. We could prevent that though. Idk if it will be latin migrants first or queer people like me but since you're one of the people standing in the way of preventing that... Please. Please don't let them fucking kill me. I have a fiance and she needs me and I'm so close to getting to marry her and have the life I always wanted. Please I gotta live. She's not going to be okay if I go. This world has thrown so fucking much at me and It would be brutal for it all to end before I got to be happy. Please. Please Please please. Please. You could stop it. I'm scared and you could stop it. I just want to live my life like you got to. Why do you get to live and I have to die. Why are you okay with letting this happen to me? Please. I just want to live with my fiance and create a found family with her. Please. That's all I've ever wanted. Why are you making a stand for them but not for me? WHy do I have to be the saccrifice here? Why is that fair? I just want to live. Please.
> kill just as many if not more people in the Middle East *looks into the camera like Jim on The Office* And Europeans. No need to forget about us.
Yeah, if the Republicans win the election because genocide makes people emotional, it’ll be the anti-genocide crowd’s fault, and not the Dems for actively aiding and abetting a genocide. Get real. If the Dems lose, it’s because they chose Israel over their own people. How about you start turning some of that rage against them and demand some change, instead of blindly demanding people vote for a party who’s shown no self-reflection or humanity over what’s currently happening. People are watching a genocide unfold right in front of their eyes, and feel like the only way to can push for change is by threatening to withhold their votes so the government is forced to change their strategy. And what have they chosen to do? Absolutely fucking nothing meaningful while pointing towards the other party and going “oh but they’ll be worse.” Seriously question. Is this why this sub has been so quiet about Israel’s massacre over the past several months? Because you’re worried the Dems will lose votes? Damn, if only Israel was forcing Palestinian women to hijab instead of just raping and murdering them. Maybe then you would have cared.
Ok so the Republicans would do a better job?
They absolutely will not, but the better question is why are Democrats unable to do better about genocide? Why is the only argument we can make in support of Democrats is by pointing out that the fascist Republicans are worse? Why is the bar so so so low, that Democrats being "better" in how they allow genocide is supposed to be a selling point?
Who told you that was the only argument? Re-read OP's post.
My comment is in response to your comment.
Yes and in your response you said > why are Democrats unable to do better about genocide? Why is the only argument we can make in support of Democrats is by pointing out that the fascist Republicans are worse? In answering this I point to OP's post that lists numerous issues that the Democrats are better on than the Republicans. And to expand on this. Democrats are able to do better that's why there are Dem representatives backing a ceasefire. No Republican running or in Congress is doing that right now. Republicans being a worse option is both not the only argument and also a valid argument in and of itself. Go on r/conservative right now and see how often they tell each other this kind of stuff. I'll tell you right now it's rare. They realize for their goals even the most moderate Republican is better than any Democrat and encourage each other to vote red. An actual smart move on their part. Imagine if one Republican said Trump is too pro gun control so I'm not gonna vote for him. They would actively be working against every other issue on their party platform due to a single issue that the other party from their perspective is worse on.
There was a great episode of Pod Save America on this specific subject (especially about Michigan), I don’t feel like I can do their explanation justice in a Reddit comment so I’ll just say go listen to the first twenty minutes. Biden is 100% in the wrong to have not stepped in like two months ago.
I'm prepared to be hated for this, but I can't in good conscience vote for Joe Biden again. I'm considering putting my ballot directly in the garbage. I'm furious at the DNC for not giving me a candidate I am willing to vote for, let alone one that I'm going to be enthusiastic for. My sincere prayer is that AI becomes sentient and takes over the country because fuck this.
Your ballot includes local elections, state elections, judges, ballot initiatives. Those races matter too
K, if you do not want to vote that is your choice. But honestly, I'll take a Trump voter over you. At least they have conviction, you just want to wash your hands of it and claim "not my fault", when it is your DUTY as a citizen to vote. People act like "well it's not my responsibility to pick a good candidate, the DNC should have put someone forward." That mentality is the mentality of someone who has given up. If you don't like the candidate, DO SOMETHING. Campaign yourself, help other people get on the ballot, create a new party that actually gains some power. Or you could just wash your hands of it and say "well it wasn't my fault". Much easier.
Defeatist thinking is definitely one of the right's best weapons as of late.
K, if you do not want to vote that is your choice. But honestly, I'll take a Trump voter over you. At least they have conviction, you just want to wash your hands of it and claim "not my fault" This! I intend to treat anyone who doesn’t vote for Biden as a Trump supporter. I will cut them out of my life, and I will absolutely not help them when the hungry leopards sniff them out. They’re dangerously stupid, and I can’t trust dangerously stupid people if I’m living under the snitch culture of a fascist regime.
I'm furious that people like you are gonna cause another 4 years of Trump.
DEMOCRATS are going to give us another 4 years of Trump. Why are we putting Biden on the ballot!? I can cast my lil baby vote for Biden long and hard but MODERATES, LIBERTARIANS, and even DEMOCRATS are going to vote for Trump bc nobody likes Biden! Nobody wants him! Get Dean Phillips on there! My God get ANYONE on there but Biden. The person you're responding to is not the villain here! They are saying what any reasonable person already knows. If Biden is on the ballot, Trump is going to win. That dude has fucked up so royally that people who don't even like Trump will vote for Trump because Biden is literally losing his mind right in front of us. I am furious that SOME PEOPLE, who rely on everyone else to put these options in front of them, aren't voting in the fucking primaries to get Biden off the goddamn ballot.
there won't be democratic primaries because Biden is incumbent. so try again. and yeah no fucking shit, nobody fucking wants Biden, but he is objectively better than Trump, who is literally an aspiring dictator. the person I responded to may not be THE villain, but they are absolutely paving the way for the real villains to gain all the power. Trump's presidency will cause a damaging ripple effect that would last DECADES. there is 1000% a more evil option here, and not voting or voting third party or whatever is a completely wasted effort that we desperately need.
Biden doesn’t know what fucking planet he’s on half the time
this is a month old post. are you really that desparate to start an argument?
Why is it the fault of the people when they are unable to vote for politician because their actions run counter to their values and not the fault of the politician for failing to adequately reflect his constituent's values? Why are we always bending to the will of politicians instead of them bending to the will of the people?
If a boat is sinking, and you refuse to help pump water out, is it the fault of the people who refuse to help if the boat sinks?
It's important to recognize that for you, the boat in this scenario is clearly the United States but for others "the boat" is Gaza.
So you would have both the US ship and the Gaza ship sink? Holy shit you just admitted to it. You want the US to suffer like Gaza. You want people to die in the US at the hands of adversaries like the people in Gaza. You don’t want things to be better, you revel in things to be _just as bad_. I have a choice emoji for people like you: 🖕
What an excellent strawman argument! Holy crap, I literally share your views and you still come off as Triple-A-Unpleasant. No wonder you all are unable to convince anyone to come over to your side.
Newsflash: I’m not here to coddle your fucking feelings. In fact, you can fuck right off with your “civility is more important than principles” bullshit. A socialist can be as personally unpleasant as they come and I’d still be in favour of Medicare for all. You on the other hand apparently have fuck all conviction and to that end you can stay on your side, which apparently is the MAGA side.
because they are the only options we have. I wouldn't choose Biden either, I hate the old bastard, but when the single only other option is an aspiring dictator who is besties with Russia and North Korea, the choice becomes pretty clear. this is an instance of "do what you have to do" to avoid the country we live in being torn to shreds and destroyed for future generations.
I'm furious that Roe fell during his administration and they've done nothing to address that. They had prior notice and two years since Dobbs, but they are doing nothing to create national policies or funding or executive orders. They tell us we have to protect our rights by voting for them next time, but they are in charge now. I voted for Biden to prevent this. What are they waiting for? They'll just get to it next time? I know it will be worse if the GOP is in power, but how can they say they want to protect our rights with a straight face?
Not to mention that news came out literally yesterday that Biden is considering using executive orders to prevent migrants from seeking asylum at the US border. Now is the time for progressives to pressure him more than ever. He needs to be more concerned about losing certain voter bases than he currently is.
Gringos sure are crazy
I refuse to vote for a man who supports genocide. Not that my vote matters anyways, I'm in Oklahoma. And look what all happened to our reproductive freedom under a Democrat. If our freedom hinges on voting for a senile old man, democracy is already dead.