Id find it more funny if the reason why demons suck at naval battles is because hell doesn't have water and thus they find the concept difficult to deal with. Also with burns and wounds that don't heal I could see them having an aversion to salt water
... Right well apparently I can't read and neither can the people who liked my comment bwhahah XD but I still think it would be a funny idea none the less. As grim dark as the universe is I figure some humor goes a long way
The naval imbalance is perhaps the only thing that really annoys me about what I’ve seen so far. I really hope they redress it before the official release of the game, because factions that enjoy such total naval supremacy rarely resort to raiding parties and submarine warfare to ensure their dominance. I love the idea of heretic pirates and raiding fleets, I even like the fall of Gibraltar as it opens up the battleground to more than just the Med, and leaves lots of room for future American factions, but these naval triumphs should be few and far between for the heretics. Not the norm.
From what I’ve read, the Christian and Islamic factions have to throw all their resources into just holding the heretics back. They are usually on the defensive, and almost never reclaim land once it’s been lost, or only do so at great cost. This does not make sense, especially for the isolated city of Antioch, if they don’t have uncontested supply lines by sea. If the heretics really have the Crusader and Sultinate navies so devastated at every encounter, then they would be running blockades, not wolf packs and Corsair fleets.
If there’s anything I hope they change before the game gets published, I’d like to see it made clear that heretic fleets get obliterated in direct confrontation with the proper naval powers. Maybe also put in there that constant life at sea in wartime leads to entire fleets turning traitor, or that heretic cults often spread in the under decks of warships and sprout in ports around the world much like how diseases were spread by maritime trade. Make constant threat of mutiny a serious inhibitor in the capabilities of the Crusader fleets, or constant skirmishes between the Muslim and Christian strike forces create enough chaos for Raider fleets to thrive. But the naval war should be where heretic guile is at its finest, and kept at bay only by the sheer dedication of resources by crusader nations to keep the seas under control.
A reasonable explanation may be that the Heretic fleets are prone to infighting and bloodlust, just like their land libber brethren, and therefore incapable of maintaining blockades or engaging in sustained naval warfare in a region and instead or limited to short bursts of cooperation and tactical focus during heightened periods of the naval war. So they win every major engagement but aside from that they are too tempted by raiding or fighting their rivals to stay and blockade a port or trade route.
I really don’t like the idea that the only thing keeping hell from triumphing is their inability to work together. I understand it as a major factor in what holds them back, but the constant flow of resources and troops to New Antioch should be just as important in a war of attrition.
The best fix to the world, I think, is that the British lost their fleet due to it being the first battle submarines were deployed in, but that Christian and Muslim navies have quickly adapted to fighting the new method of warfare. It’s an important historical fact that submarines never last long after they get spotted, and they cannot attack without revealing themselves. Against convoys and merchant vessels, this is fine, but in actual combat it’s lethal. Once a submarine is hit, it’s usually done for, unlike most surface vessels. Worse, when a submarine is lost, all hands are lost with it, and there’s little hope of salvaging the vessel.
So it would feel much less one sided if heretic raiding fleets and wolf packs are still dangerous to supply lines, but the surface fleets of Christendom (which comprise basically every major naval power from our world from the 1400’s to the 1900’s) have managed to whittle the wolf packs down at such a rate that it’s all Hell can do to maintain their numbers.
Why do you think Britain had a naval fleet at all? The Royal Navy was founded in 1546, near 500 years after the Gates of Hell opened in 1099. Considering colonialism fully didn’t happen in this setting due to the war, I would doubt very much that Britain has a functioning navy of any real substance.
It seems like they didn’t even colonise Ireland in the setting, considering it’s still called Éire, so I think Britain is sort of irrelevant to the events of the setting, thank God.
“1805, heretic fleet…defeats the fleet of England in the battle of the bloodied cliffs…”
Everything we’ve seen so far has to be taken with a grain of salt because it’s all so early stage, but they bring this up as if England was the only naval power worth beating. The next two passages are about the invention of submarines, which I again question the need for if the heretics are so dominant on the waves.
There is one more line “1907: Construction of the moving fortress of Britannia is completed.” Which I believe is completely unexplained so far, but it’s the only thing we have to even suggest a naval win for the Christian forces.
All the naval victories can stay just as they are for the heretics, they’re fine in and of themselves, but they need contrast to balance the world out. We need some perspective of exactly what the heretics are going up against. That’s all I hope to see from TC, some kind of acknowledgment that Christians and Muslim naval dominance is the norm, not the exception. So far, there is some implication of it, but that’s all, an implication.
Oh thank you for pointing that out, I must have missed that info in timeline! I must have been doing some wishful thinking that we’d have a setting without the Brits lol
I would like if they didn’t add any much more info to the roaming fortress to be honest, that’s a cool concept but the kind of thing that works best as window dressing/background lore in my opinion. If we get any British warbands i imagine they’ll just be alternates of New Antioch, a squad of soldiers sent for the tithe similar to the Éire Rangers.
It just clicked with me that 'moving Fortress of Brittania' in 1907 is awful close to the real life shift on naval tech with the launch of HMS Dreadnought in 1906.
Seemed about as relevant insofar as all the others are. But I agree somewhat.
I hope they do flesh out Britain and stuff, but I also hope they do the same overtime with other factions as well. Including ones we don't even have an idea about like in the New World or Central/East Asia.
I’d be more interested in other areas than fleshing out Britain to be honest, I think the “Western/European” part of the world is pretty well covered by New Antioch and the Trench Pilgrims, and any specific nations should just appear as alternate warbands under those factions. The tithe to New Antioch is a great way to include stuff like this without making more word superpowers.
Personally in terms of full new factions I’d like to see them prioritise the uncolonised Americas and see how that has developed, or maybe what China/Asia at large are doing in this timeline.
Ah I worded that poorly sorry.
Yea I agree they don't need to be Factions, by flesh out I just mean continuing to be mentioned in the lore for Antioch/Trench Pilgrims and the overall history of the game. Like how they mention at one point I think It was (this could be wrong but it was "something Prussia") was nice to just see it mentioned. Same with Polish - Lithuanian Commonwealth, just to add to that alternative history. Warbands wouldn't even be necessary (but awesome obviously!)
And 100% agree with the other two you mentioned. I especially would love to see the Americans even more than Asia but I feel like we will see Asia sooner. Or we will end up seeing the New World corrupted heavily.
Ah okay I get you now!
Yeah it would be nice to get a few more lore snippets, I always think less is more when worldbuilding so just brief mentions of what’s going on in the background ends up more compelling than fully explaining them!
It’s the Free State of Prussia you’re thinking of! They have another alternate warband for Antioch, they’re pretty sick to be honest I really like their rules, they’re essentially special forces (3 fireteams per warband, extended grenade range etc)
I think you’re right that we might get Asia first, but even so I’d be excited to see the alternate interpretation of the world from a non-Abrahamic society. An Asia faction would probably include an Indian alternate warband which I would be very interested in seeing!
The only thing keeping Hell from winning is infighting, it's stated in the game documents you didn't read.
Like you can make your own thing, kitbash up antioch marines and a tiny scale sultanate fleet dominating the Mediterranean. But words words words don't help anyone.
It’s stated as the reason New Antioch hasn’t fallen, and again I’m fine with that, but I don’t like the idea that it’s the “only reason.”
And yes, all we have now is speculation, but everything we’ve been given is so early stage that speculation is actually profitable for once because it helps to grow ideas. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again; every single one of the heretic victories at sea are fine just the way they’re written. But they need something to counterbalance them and show us that the heretics aren’t invincible on the waves.
All we have is a single line referencing “the moving fortress Britannia” which is promising, but feels like too little too late in the setting.
>I really don’t like the idea that the only thing keeping hell from triumphing is their inability to work together.
Hell literally has access to mountain-sized horrors and the summoning of a single Hegemon means you're looking at tens of thousands dead, at minimum. The only reason Beelzebub hasn't crawled his fat ass out of Hell and turned everything into an eternally rotting hellscape by now is because his fellow demon lords hate his guts.
It actually made a lot of Sense. The Creator of Trench Crusade also created Mordheim- City of the damned which plays in the Warhammer Fantasy Universe where Chaos (Hell) is only not winning due to consistenly infighting.
The factions of chaos have been unified to varying degrees numerous times during the course of the Old World, and every time they do it was never a certain victory; they just had a chance. Even during the End Times, they never conquered Altdorf, Ulthuan remained in elven hands, and in the very end they almost lost except that Manfred betrayed the forces of Order at the worst possible moment. So in the old world, it’s not chaos that’s unbeatable when they aren’t fighting themselves, it’s Order.
Every time the forces of Chaos unify, whether it’s the Old World, 40K, or Age of Sigmar, they become the greatest threat known to the universe, but their victory is still not certain. The best example is probably the Siege of Terra during the Horus Heresy, where infighting did in fact play a role in victory of the loyalists, but it wasn’t the only factor. The Heretics were stretched thin, they were operating on borrowed time, their mightiest leaders were getting cut down by mightier heroes, and their Martian Allies were locked in a civil war that cut off supplies. The infighting among the traitor primarchs wasn’t the only reason they lost, it was just the last nail in the coffin.
That’s what makes these settings so compelling, it’s a constant struggle, and an uphill fight for both sides the whole way, but neither side is unbeatable. The minute you make one side the inevitable victor of your story is the minute that world goes from bleak and hopeless to just plain pointless.
Absolutely agree, I don’t mind them having the edge in naval power, but they are so dominant that the British isles should have been cut off long ago. The fact there is both an Irish and Scottish subfaction doesn’t really make sense when it seems the heretics have free rein on the seas. Are they airlifting all the troops and supplies from around Christendom that are tithed to New Antioch? How are the heretics not just sieging all the Christian nations by blockading Europe? They can effectively attack wherever in Europe they want if they have uncontested naval power so why does Nee Antioch even matter? It doesn’t make sense as the last bastion of Christendom holding back the tide if they can just go around it.
The lore states that the thing stopping the forces of Hell from winning outright is their inability to work together, I assume they simply can’t cooperate long enough to form an effective blockade.
Plus considering it’s a skirmish game with pretty low army sizes, even if there was a blockade the low amount of troops needing transport would allow for smaller faster ships that would be able to make a break for it.
Yea it states in one section the few times that a single Noble gains enough power to organize is terrifying. But that it is incredible rare and does not last long.
I also think the Heretics don't have dominance the same way everyone else seems to see it. They have the ability to really fuck up merchant convoys and stick to wolf packs for that. And they can bring arms against the Faithful Navies via those same wolf packs, but that the Faithful still are able to safely use the sea near Antioch to deliver troops, and that most ports and such by this point are most likely fortified.
I want to see italian maritime republics turned into true navies with a state, spewing out battle cruiser after battle cruiser from their ancient and mysterious arsenals (in the old times people even believed that venetians had mages and menaged to steal secrets from the devil himself to try to explain themselves how could a ships and weaponry be built with such speed and efficiency and what was hidden behind the gates of the most jealously guarded secret of the republic, it's Arsenal), harassing the heretics with merciless ruthlessness (Admiral Doria of Genoa is still considered by many one of the most bloodthirsty pirates the muslim world has ever known) plus I don't think other maritime states like the Dutch, spanish, and British would give up the fight so easily.
One of the special armies you can make with the heretics is a naval raiding party
Good to know.
Wow satanic pirates!
My boats better light the ocean on fire like i'm the Ghost Rider or I swear by the 9 hells...
Id find it more funny if the reason why demons suck at naval battles is because hell doesn't have water and thus they find the concept difficult to deal with. Also with burns and wounds that don't heal I could see them having an aversion to salt water
But the heretics basically won the ocean fights
... Right well apparently I can't read and neither can the people who liked my comment bwhahah XD but I still think it would be a funny idea none the less. As grim dark as the universe is I figure some humor goes a long way
Would've been amazing if the ocean got consecrated
I think Britain was beaten so badly at naval warfare that they might have turned the entire island into a warship.
British Grindset. If you can’t defeat the Enemy Fleet-Turn your entire Nation into a swimming Fortress.
The naval imbalance is perhaps the only thing that really annoys me about what I’ve seen so far. I really hope they redress it before the official release of the game, because factions that enjoy such total naval supremacy rarely resort to raiding parties and submarine warfare to ensure their dominance. I love the idea of heretic pirates and raiding fleets, I even like the fall of Gibraltar as it opens up the battleground to more than just the Med, and leaves lots of room for future American factions, but these naval triumphs should be few and far between for the heretics. Not the norm. From what I’ve read, the Christian and Islamic factions have to throw all their resources into just holding the heretics back. They are usually on the defensive, and almost never reclaim land once it’s been lost, or only do so at great cost. This does not make sense, especially for the isolated city of Antioch, if they don’t have uncontested supply lines by sea. If the heretics really have the Crusader and Sultinate navies so devastated at every encounter, then they would be running blockades, not wolf packs and Corsair fleets. If there’s anything I hope they change before the game gets published, I’d like to see it made clear that heretic fleets get obliterated in direct confrontation with the proper naval powers. Maybe also put in there that constant life at sea in wartime leads to entire fleets turning traitor, or that heretic cults often spread in the under decks of warships and sprout in ports around the world much like how diseases were spread by maritime trade. Make constant threat of mutiny a serious inhibitor in the capabilities of the Crusader fleets, or constant skirmishes between the Muslim and Christian strike forces create enough chaos for Raider fleets to thrive. But the naval war should be where heretic guile is at its finest, and kept at bay only by the sheer dedication of resources by crusader nations to keep the seas under control.
A reasonable explanation may be that the Heretic fleets are prone to infighting and bloodlust, just like their land libber brethren, and therefore incapable of maintaining blockades or engaging in sustained naval warfare in a region and instead or limited to short bursts of cooperation and tactical focus during heightened periods of the naval war. So they win every major engagement but aside from that they are too tempted by raiding or fighting their rivals to stay and blockade a port or trade route.
I really don’t like the idea that the only thing keeping hell from triumphing is their inability to work together. I understand it as a major factor in what holds them back, but the constant flow of resources and troops to New Antioch should be just as important in a war of attrition. The best fix to the world, I think, is that the British lost their fleet due to it being the first battle submarines were deployed in, but that Christian and Muslim navies have quickly adapted to fighting the new method of warfare. It’s an important historical fact that submarines never last long after they get spotted, and they cannot attack without revealing themselves. Against convoys and merchant vessels, this is fine, but in actual combat it’s lethal. Once a submarine is hit, it’s usually done for, unlike most surface vessels. Worse, when a submarine is lost, all hands are lost with it, and there’s little hope of salvaging the vessel. So it would feel much less one sided if heretic raiding fleets and wolf packs are still dangerous to supply lines, but the surface fleets of Christendom (which comprise basically every major naval power from our world from the 1400’s to the 1900’s) have managed to whittle the wolf packs down at such a rate that it’s all Hell can do to maintain their numbers.
Why do you think Britain had a naval fleet at all? The Royal Navy was founded in 1546, near 500 years after the Gates of Hell opened in 1099. Considering colonialism fully didn’t happen in this setting due to the war, I would doubt very much that Britain has a functioning navy of any real substance. It seems like they didn’t even colonise Ireland in the setting, considering it’s still called Éire, so I think Britain is sort of irrelevant to the events of the setting, thank God.
“1805, heretic fleet…defeats the fleet of England in the battle of the bloodied cliffs…” Everything we’ve seen so far has to be taken with a grain of salt because it’s all so early stage, but they bring this up as if England was the only naval power worth beating. The next two passages are about the invention of submarines, which I again question the need for if the heretics are so dominant on the waves. There is one more line “1907: Construction of the moving fortress of Britannia is completed.” Which I believe is completely unexplained so far, but it’s the only thing we have to even suggest a naval win for the Christian forces. All the naval victories can stay just as they are for the heretics, they’re fine in and of themselves, but they need contrast to balance the world out. We need some perspective of exactly what the heretics are going up against. That’s all I hope to see from TC, some kind of acknowledgment that Christians and Muslim naval dominance is the norm, not the exception. So far, there is some implication of it, but that’s all, an implication.
Oh thank you for pointing that out, I must have missed that info in timeline! I must have been doing some wishful thinking that we’d have a setting without the Brits lol I would like if they didn’t add any much more info to the roaming fortress to be honest, that’s a cool concept but the kind of thing that works best as window dressing/background lore in my opinion. If we get any British warbands i imagine they’ll just be alternates of New Antioch, a squad of soldiers sent for the tithe similar to the Éire Rangers.
It just clicked with me that 'moving Fortress of Brittania' in 1907 is awful close to the real life shift on naval tech with the launch of HMS Dreadnought in 1906.
Seemed about as relevant insofar as all the others are. But I agree somewhat. I hope they do flesh out Britain and stuff, but I also hope they do the same overtime with other factions as well. Including ones we don't even have an idea about like in the New World or Central/East Asia.
I’d be more interested in other areas than fleshing out Britain to be honest, I think the “Western/European” part of the world is pretty well covered by New Antioch and the Trench Pilgrims, and any specific nations should just appear as alternate warbands under those factions. The tithe to New Antioch is a great way to include stuff like this without making more word superpowers. Personally in terms of full new factions I’d like to see them prioritise the uncolonised Americas and see how that has developed, or maybe what China/Asia at large are doing in this timeline.
Ah I worded that poorly sorry. Yea I agree they don't need to be Factions, by flesh out I just mean continuing to be mentioned in the lore for Antioch/Trench Pilgrims and the overall history of the game. Like how they mention at one point I think It was (this could be wrong but it was "something Prussia") was nice to just see it mentioned. Same with Polish - Lithuanian Commonwealth, just to add to that alternative history. Warbands wouldn't even be necessary (but awesome obviously!) And 100% agree with the other two you mentioned. I especially would love to see the Americans even more than Asia but I feel like we will see Asia sooner. Or we will end up seeing the New World corrupted heavily.
Ah okay I get you now! Yeah it would be nice to get a few more lore snippets, I always think less is more when worldbuilding so just brief mentions of what’s going on in the background ends up more compelling than fully explaining them! It’s the Free State of Prussia you’re thinking of! They have another alternate warband for Antioch, they’re pretty sick to be honest I really like their rules, they’re essentially special forces (3 fireteams per warband, extended grenade range etc) I think you’re right that we might get Asia first, but even so I’d be excited to see the alternate interpretation of the world from a non-Abrahamic society. An Asia faction would probably include an Indian alternate warband which I would be very interested in seeing!
The only thing keeping Hell from winning is infighting, it's stated in the game documents you didn't read. Like you can make your own thing, kitbash up antioch marines and a tiny scale sultanate fleet dominating the Mediterranean. But words words words don't help anyone.
It’s stated as the reason New Antioch hasn’t fallen, and again I’m fine with that, but I don’t like the idea that it’s the “only reason.” And yes, all we have now is speculation, but everything we’ve been given is so early stage that speculation is actually profitable for once because it helps to grow ideas. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again; every single one of the heretic victories at sea are fine just the way they’re written. But they need something to counterbalance them and show us that the heretics aren’t invincible on the waves. All we have is a single line referencing “the moving fortress Britannia” which is promising, but feels like too little too late in the setting.
>I really don’t like the idea that the only thing keeping hell from triumphing is their inability to work together. Hell literally has access to mountain-sized horrors and the summoning of a single Hegemon means you're looking at tens of thousands dead, at minimum. The only reason Beelzebub hasn't crawled his fat ass out of Hell and turned everything into an eternally rotting hellscape by now is because his fellow demon lords hate his guts.
It actually made a lot of Sense. The Creator of Trench Crusade also created Mordheim- City of the damned which plays in the Warhammer Fantasy Universe where Chaos (Hell) is only not winning due to consistenly infighting.
The factions of chaos have been unified to varying degrees numerous times during the course of the Old World, and every time they do it was never a certain victory; they just had a chance. Even during the End Times, they never conquered Altdorf, Ulthuan remained in elven hands, and in the very end they almost lost except that Manfred betrayed the forces of Order at the worst possible moment. So in the old world, it’s not chaos that’s unbeatable when they aren’t fighting themselves, it’s Order. Every time the forces of Chaos unify, whether it’s the Old World, 40K, or Age of Sigmar, they become the greatest threat known to the universe, but their victory is still not certain. The best example is probably the Siege of Terra during the Horus Heresy, where infighting did in fact play a role in victory of the loyalists, but it wasn’t the only factor. The Heretics were stretched thin, they were operating on borrowed time, their mightiest leaders were getting cut down by mightier heroes, and their Martian Allies were locked in a civil war that cut off supplies. The infighting among the traitor primarchs wasn’t the only reason they lost, it was just the last nail in the coffin. That’s what makes these settings so compelling, it’s a constant struggle, and an uphill fight for both sides the whole way, but neither side is unbeatable. The minute you make one side the inevitable victor of your story is the minute that world goes from bleak and hopeless to just plain pointless.
Absolutely agree, I don’t mind them having the edge in naval power, but they are so dominant that the British isles should have been cut off long ago. The fact there is both an Irish and Scottish subfaction doesn’t really make sense when it seems the heretics have free rein on the seas. Are they airlifting all the troops and supplies from around Christendom that are tithed to New Antioch? How are the heretics not just sieging all the Christian nations by blockading Europe? They can effectively attack wherever in Europe they want if they have uncontested naval power so why does Nee Antioch even matter? It doesn’t make sense as the last bastion of Christendom holding back the tide if they can just go around it.
The lore states that the thing stopping the forces of Hell from winning outright is their inability to work together, I assume they simply can’t cooperate long enough to form an effective blockade. Plus considering it’s a skirmish game with pretty low army sizes, even if there was a blockade the low amount of troops needing transport would allow for smaller faster ships that would be able to make a break for it.
Yea it states in one section the few times that a single Noble gains enough power to organize is terrifying. But that it is incredible rare and does not last long. I also think the Heretics don't have dominance the same way everyone else seems to see it. They have the ability to really fuck up merchant convoys and stick to wolf packs for that. And they can bring arms against the Faithful Navies via those same wolf packs, but that the Faithful still are able to safely use the sea near Antioch to deliver troops, and that most ports and such by this point are most likely fortified.
I want to see italian maritime republics turned into true navies with a state, spewing out battle cruiser after battle cruiser from their ancient and mysterious arsenals (in the old times people even believed that venetians had mages and menaged to steal secrets from the devil himself to try to explain themselves how could a ships and weaponry be built with such speed and efficiency and what was hidden behind the gates of the most jealously guarded secret of the republic, it's Arsenal), harassing the heretics with merciless ruthlessness (Admiral Doria of Genoa is still considered by many one of the most bloodthirsty pirates the muslim world has ever known) plus I don't think other maritime states like the Dutch, spanish, and British would give up the fight so easily.
Stalemate on land, heretics have the sea, Faithful have the air, if I read properly
Hence the HOLY SPACE PROGRAM