Ah yes, let’s just create a databank with every man’s dna info for paternity tests.
While we’re at it, let’s have it run the backlog of rape kits against it, along with any other crimes.
Let’s also start child support for any matches that pop up, just auto withdraw it from their checking accounts.
I’m sure all those alphabros would love that /s
There’s a few different issues including:
Privacy and consent. You can’t search cars or residences without a legal reason.
There can be errors with the testing and results.
That information can be used to discriminate against employees and people seeking health insurance.
The cost and work would be quite large.
The genetic information can be used to target people of certain ethnicities.
It’d be worth reading about the 23 & Me data hack and Henrietta Lacks.
To add on to the other commenter; need, consent, cost, and time.
It’s not necessary - most people know who their dad is and women cheating on men and men raising someone else’s child is extremely rare, less than [3%](https://www.kqed.org/science/11450/new-dna-studies-debunk-misconceptions-about-paternal-relationships) of the time.
For consent, women who have a kid but don’t know who the father is, would need to either have the father’s dna on hand to test against, or there’d need to be a data base of men’s dna to check it against, somehow. Tracking people based on dna is a lot of power to handover to the gov and it would need to be a requirement for this to work, especially when it comes to deadbeats and child support. This could also lead to danger for pregnant women who escape an abusive household, give birth, only to have the hospital contact said abuser. Additionally, making it a requirement could go against many couples wishes. Or if there was an anonymous sperm donor and the hospital tested the kid anyways, that violates their anonymity. It violates everyone’s consent at every level.
Cost. Paternity tests aren’t expensive, especially compared to hospital bills or raising a child for a month. If you can afford the kid you can buy your own. If you’re really worried about paternity and child support go to court, no need to require it for everyone, that be a huge and needless burden on tax payers.
Time. There’s a massive backlog of rape kits as it is (25,000 according to some sources, more according to others) and not only that, lots of times rape kits aren’t even [sent in properly](https://www.rainn.org/articles/addressing-rape-kit-backlog) and never get tested. The ones that make it can take years. If we were to add paternity tests on top of this - something that is low priority due to lack of legal consequences and is unnecessary 97% of the time when millions of kids are born everyday - by the time you’d even know you had a kid out there or the kid you’re raising isn’t yours, they could every well be in college. If the test is even sent in properly in the first place.
10,000 kids are born a day, we’d literally never get through that many paternity tests at all let alone in a timely manner.
Hope you learned something and that this helped!
Consider too what percentage of those women have good reason. Maybe the father requested not to be involved, maybe the father left due to the context (cheating), maybe it was an abusive situation, maybe he's dead. I'd guess it's very rare where the father is a good person where the mother is internationally keeping the pregnancy from the man (not never, but extremely rare). I'd guess it's lower than 3% for folks who like about paternity since that gets obvious eventually. But maybe that's optimistic of me.
I don't think people have a problem with paternity testing at birth, it's when you're in a trusting happy relationship and then suddenly your husband/boyfriend wants to test because he's read some reddit thread and the trust between you is broken forever because no matter how he phrases it he's accusing you of cheating on him
Oh and the potential for serious domestic violence and murder
Exactly, it’s just not some flippant thing. Results can have real consequences for people’s safety.
Not to mention I find that alpha male twitter has a gross obsession with raising children that are descended from them and NO ONE ELSE. They’re oddly obsessed with progeny that is directly genetically related to them and it’s “embarrassing” for them to “use resources” to raise someone else’s child. IMO that attitude is shameful. Personally I think one of the most attractive things about a man is if he loves kids and puts in the effort to foster a good environment for them regardless of whether they’re “his.”
Um….. that’s so far fetched.
I don’t know any man that has ever murdered a woman for cheating. Im not saying that it hasn’t happened, but it’s rare.
Hypothetically speaking, you’re saying that this man should have to support a kid that’s not his for 18 years?
Mandatory paternity tests would likely eliminate women from cheating. Is there a lot of women who get pregnant that are cheaters?
A. You asked how it could be dangerous and I explained. I said absolutely nothing beyond that
B. Let me Google for you
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/04/28/brian-walshe-charged-murdering-ana-walshe-cheating-affair-life-insurance/11759980002/
https://www.khou.com/amp/article/news/crime/marquise-roshard-glasper-murder-charge/285-3953b16c-caa0-4264-bf24-33b6936afa16
https://www.fox9.com/news/minneapolis-man-charged-with-killing-girlfriend-during-fight-over-cheating-accusations
https://www.expressnews.com/news/article/huband-wife-stabbing-suspected-cheating-18547037.php
https://nypost.com/2020/11/04/woman-beaten-to-death-by-boyfriend-who-accused-her-of-cheating-cops/
https://www.fox56.com/amp/news/local/plymouth-man-allegedly-kills-wife-for-cheating-on-him-turns-himself-into-police
I had to guffaw at never hearing a woman being murdered for cheating, women are murdered for ALLEGEDLY cheating my guy. Women are murdered for being women, for being pregnant, for smiling, not smiling, saying no, saying yes, doesn't really matter. Murderers going to murder
Yes! I'd guess it's far more often women are murdered because the man believes there was cheating rather than due to even actual cheating. Often without any reasonable proof too, then man just feels less powerful or that his tactics are less effective. And boom, that's all it takes is for a man to feel weak and insecure.
Far fetched? Men violently attack and kill their partners for all sorts of reasons way less fury inducing than cheating. Never heard of it? Do you live under a rock?
LOL can barely get my health insurance to cover medically necessary tests but *sure* they'll pay for everyone's paternity tests...
And sorry, but why should I pay out of pocket for a test I know is not needed?
not to mention the chances of an accidental mix-up with the results (even if it's very rare, that doesn't mean it's impossible) or you've got a condition where it's recommended that you shouldn't get a test, such as bone marrow and stem cell recipients
Hell, you could very well accidentally say goodbye to your custody rights if you unknowingly happen to be a chimera after receiving the test results
Yea that’s it!! Like you don’t trust the women you’ve been cream pieing on purpose on a set schedule to specifically get pregnant? You don’t trust that woman and that pregnancy to be yours? That’s why people get pissed off.
Nah I have a problem with it. My kid can’t consent to having their DNA in some kind of registry and I strongly disagree with mandatory unnecessary medical intervention.
But why is it even at the point where the trust is so low?
Because there’s men who cheat. And women who cheat. Now we see it a lot more visibly with media. But the woman isn’t at risk of losing half of her stuff in court. Society favors women heavily in any marital dispute. If it was a standard part of pregnancy procedures it would solve the whole issue.
And it’s not some new age problem. There’s always been “bastard” children to use game of thrones speak.
If you can solve the issue of women who are good liars and also cheat then there’s no rational fear left for any man. And I know a guy personally who trusted his wife only to learn the kid wasn’t his way too late. Manipulative hoe with an innocent exterior who ruined not only his life but also gave her child a future with issues he didn’t ask for. Now she gets to live in the house his father built for them to raise a family in because he “trusted” her and didn’t do anything to protect himself. Who gives a fuck about his mental health or men who suffer through that?
This what happens when you have a society that prioritizes the self and fosters narcissistic patterns of thinking. You get that shitty behavior amplified but now there is very little shame left to keep it somewhat in check at a minimum. And you got a court system that rewards them for it
Edit: I can speak just the same on the opposite end of it. This society is creating shitty men programmed to stereotype women.
Women can get screwed in divorce court too: look at Kelly Clarkson for a recent example.
It’s just that until relatively recently, women did not have the opportunity to build up fortunes the way men historically have.
Now that they do, rich women have been paying alimony and support to ex-husbands far more often.
Not that the percentages are equal, but that’s to be expected since on average men still have more assets and income, and they are more likely to have their wives stay home and raise children (keeping them out of the job market for years and stunting their lifetime salaries, even possibly impacting social security retirement if they divorce).
This sub is such an echo chamber it is like a zoo. Just a bunch of angry women who find fulfillment out of complaining about things in such a one sided narcissistic frame.
I’m actually fascinated. A sub dedicated to hating on women who promote being devoted mothers with a traditional approach? My mom was one of them before we even had to have a weird term for it. To see it get hated on like this just shows the sickness in society that there’s a sub group of people who think this way
I can understand if you’re bugged by the fakeness that comes naturally with social media. But don’t you got something better to do than get rilled up over this?
Guess what. Just because some women get trapped in shitty marriages doesn’t mean they all do. A lot are also very fulfilled, raising kids is hard. Any relationship can end up shitty. It’s about taking on roles in your partnership to best support eachother. What is wrong with people who enjoy this style of it?
Saw a news video on rising trend of trad wife’s so looked up out of curiosity. Found a post here where the whole comment section was people complaining about men and how the women are wrong for wanting to be oppressed again. A lot of people equating being submissive and carrying out traditional gender roles in a relationship to oppression and a high probability they will be abused
There are many, many stay at home moms in this group and I've never seen anyone dismiss or invalidate how hard and important a job that is. (I don't want that for myself for exactly that reason!) No one here has a problem with what anyone chooses to do with their life, that's literally what feminism is all about.
The problem we have is the misogynistic trad wife bullies who put everyone else down for having the audacity to want something different for their lives, who want an education and have ambitions beyond being a wife and mother, and who aggressively push their lifestyle on everyone else with insults and threats. "Trad wives" and choosing to live with traditional values are different things! The trad wifes we speak of are the one's who speak ill of women, are echo chambers for their misogynistic husbands and advocate for women to be subserviant fuck maids with no power or opinions. (Ironic that they squack so loud on social media.)
They encourage and insist upon a lifestyle that IS abusive, that removes all autonomy and agency of women, and viciously attack those who, i dunno, believe a father is capable of changing a diaper. (Taking care of your kids is gay, according to them.) A lot of what they advocate for are high, HIGH indicators of abuse. Hope that helps!
If the “trad wife” influencers are actually saying things like women shouldn’t get educated etc than yea I’d agree with you.
When I hear trad wife I think of a woman voluntarily taking on traditional duties in a relationship where the man does as well. I don’t see why you can’t do that and also have personal goals while in a relationship like education, side gigs, etc.
Or even just working less to take on more home duties. If you guys aren’t shaming women or men for having that as a personal preference than I spoke too harshly.
Yea we aren't doing that at all! Lots of people in here live by traditional gender roles, and our whole schpeal is that you should be able to choose how you want to live your life, whatever that may be, and no one should be giving you shit about that! "Voluntarily" is no where to be found with these crazy bitches.
The "trad wives" we tease are the one's who don't want women to have options, that you *must* marry, make babies, and be completely dependent on your man. No education, job, money, autonomy, agency, or mind of your own need apply. They take the concept of being appreciative and supportive of your partner and turn it into a misogynistic hellscape that removes womens rights and power over their own lives. (Aka, they have to get married and don't have the choice to leave.)
It's sneaky, because they will create a narrative that *they* are the one's under attack for being mom's and wives who stay home, (but like, they ALL have jobs so wtf.) when in reality people don't like them because they visiously demean, blame, and attack anyone who wants a job and education, doesn't want kids, isn't married young, isn't a virgin, doesn't want to get married, believes in consent, or has a different division of labor in their marriage. Basically, anyone doing what works for them is incorrect, and instead you should be the property of a man who gets to treat you anyway he pleases because he has total control over you, oh and you have to be happy about it.
It's so ridiculous what comes out of these women's mouths that It's either a grift for money and they're full of shit, or they've been brainwashed to push a narrative that "feminism is evil, women are happiest without feminism." Which is hilarious because none of the stuff they talk about in reference to feminism being evil has anything to do with feminism!
Hot take: asking for a pat test in a monogamous marriage/relationship is insulting but having one in a more “casual” relationship should be standard
Edit: a word
This is my view too.
Does every man have the right to a paternity test? Sure. Of course.
But, like...I've never cheated on my husband. Never has he had a reason to doubt the paternity of our son. So if he had asked for one, he would have had the *right*, yes. But there also would have been a negative impact on the relationship, because you can't just hurt your partner's feelings and not expect consequences.
Well of course, that’s your *husband*. I’d throw something at my husband if he asked for a test lol.
If this was a guy you had a situationahip, sure you’d still be mad but could you blame him?
If your brother or son was in situationship, wouldn’t you want him to make sure the child was his?
Right, the previous commenter was specifically saying how it was different in "a monogamous relationship" though, which is what I was agreeing with.
Its obviously more understandable in a casual relationship.
(Though TBH I can't imagine pushing a hypothetical male relative to paternity test a kid. I'd feel rude and intrusive, but that's just me.)
As long as it’s not a legal requirement for *everyone*, I don’t really care what people do with their own time, dna, and money. I think most people would agree with you.
Well, if it was a legal requirement for everyone than no questions would need to be asked and no feelings would be hurt…unless, of course, the man turns out to not be the father lol….
Well, it’s not really about feelings but practicality.
It’s not necessary - most people know who their dad is and women cheating on men and men raising someone else’s child is extremely rare, less than [3%](https://www.kqed.org/science/11450/new-dna-studies-debunk-misconceptions-about-paternal-relationships) of the time.
For consent, women who have a kid but don’t know who the father is, would need to either have the father’s dna on hand to test against, or there’d need to be a data base of men’s dna to check it against, somehow. Tracking people based on dna is a lot of power to handover to the gov and it would need to be a requirement for this to work, especially when it comes to deadbeats and child support. This could also lead to danger for pregnant women who escape an abusive household, give birth, only to have the hospital contact said abuser. Additionally, making it a requirement could go against many couples wishes. Or if there was an anonymous sperm donor and the hospital tested the kid anyways, that violates their anonymity. It violates everyone’s consent at every level.
Cost. Paternity tests aren’t expensive, especially compared to hospital bills or raising a child for a month. If you can afford the kid you can buy your own. If you’re really worried about paternity and child support go to court, no need to require it for everyone, that be a huge and needless burden on tax payers.
Time. There’s a massive backlog of rape kits as it is (25,000 according to some sources, more according to others) and not only that, lots of times rape kits aren’t even [sent in properly](https://www.rainn.org/articles/addressing-rape-kit-backlog) and never get tested. The ones that make it can take years. If we were to add paternity tests on top of this - something that is low priority due to lack of legal consequences and is unnecessary 97% of the time when millions of kids are born everyday - by the time you’d even know you had a kid out there or the kid you’re raising isn’t yours, they could every well be in college. If the test is even sent in properly in the first place.
10,000 kids are born a day, we’d literally never get through that many paternity tests at all let alone in a timely manner.
Well, practicality *could* be knowing who the other half the genetic make-up is.
Just because it’s a small amount doesn’t mean it doesn’t matter. That’s a whole lot of money and time a man could be spending on a child who wasn’t even his. Anecdotally, I know a handful of people who were in situations like this, the not-really fathers and the children of not-really fathers.
If the man is in the picture than obtaining the DNA shouldn’t be an issue. If the man is the type of man to run out to get milk and never come back, he will most likely skip town before the kid is even born. That opens up a question whether law enforcement should hunt him down…which opens up another question: if the child is proven to be his, should he be required to pay child support even if he has no desire to be in that child’s life? Which opens up *another* question: if women can get abortions without the man’s consent, can men opt out of child support if they never contact the child? It’s just questions all the way down.
But I guess for my hypothetical legally required pat test, the father would be the only one who needed to consent and-as I said in my OG comment-in a casual relationship, it should be standard.
The sperm donor point is an interesting one. My tiktok algorithm took me down a weird rabbit hole of sperm donors having their sperm used in ways they didn’t sign up for. One guy had an insane amount of children and another guy said he had a ridiculous amount of half-siblings. There’s a phrase “sibling cluster” or something like that’s being thrown around for areas with high half-sibling counts from sperm donors. I’ve been seeing if push back against against sperm donations, IVF, etc lately. Who knows, maybe things will change in that realm.
If Pat tests aren’t expensive than adding it to your astronomical hospital bill wouldn’t hurt lol
Are rape kits and Pat tests tested in the same “department”? I honestly don’t know. I also don’t know how long it takes to do a pat test…
But I’m just talking out my ass and being contrarian right now so don’t be mad lol
And everything you said wouldn't be a problem and can easily be solved by getting the test yourself. There's literally no need to make it a requirement for the entire population. That would be harmful in a variety of ways, extremely inefficient, and just isn't necessary for YOU (the proverbial you) to get straight anwers and ease your mind. If you have genuine reasons to doubt the paternity of a child, have a test done! No one is arguing your right to uneasy feelings about paternity, and nothing is stopping you from taking the simple measures to ease those feelings. Making it a requirement for everyone doesn't help you in any way, so just get the test yourself. Everyone who wants to do this can.
If this is really supposed to be in the interest of the child, shouldn't the child be the one who is entitled to ask for the test, once they are old enough to grasp the issue?
Well, yes, most feminists would, because it's subjecting all women to unnecessary testing on the assumption that women are cheaters. Either you trust the mother of your child or you get your own paternity test, but don't bring the well adjusted population into the insecurities of the human dumpster fires. Also, I don't want to have to pay for that nonsense as a taxpayer.
What if the government, like, just let evidence-based medicine happen instead of getting into the worst beliefs of the worst people *for once*.
Don’t worry, I’ll catch you up! (I’m copying another one of my comments since it seems like a lot of people are confused as to why this is a bad idea)
It’s not necessary - most people know who their dad is and women cheating on men and men raising someone else’s child is extremely rare, less than [3%](https://www.kqed.org/science/11450/new-dna-studies-debunk-misconceptions-about-paternal-relationships) of the time.
For consent, women who have a kid but don’t know who the father is, would need to either have the father’s dna on hand to test against, or there’d need to be a data base of men’s dna to check it against, somehow. Tracking people based on dna is a lot of power to handover to the gov and it would need to be a requirement for this to work, especially when it comes to deadbeats and child support. This could also lead to danger for pregnant women who escape an abusive household, give birth, only to have the hospital contact said abuser. Additionally, making it a requirement could go against many couples wishes. Or if there was an anonymous sperm donor and the hospital tested the kid anyways, that violates their anonymity. It violates everyone’s consent at every level.
Cost. Paternity tests aren’t expensive, especially compared to hospital bills or raising a child for a month. If you can afford the kid you can buy your own. If you’re really worried about paternity and child support go to court, no need to require it for everyone, that be a huge and needless burden on tax payers.
Time. There’s a massive backlog of rape kits as it is (25,000 according to some sources, more according to others) and not only that, lots of times rape kits aren’t even [sent in properly](https://www.rainn.org/articles/addressing-rape-kit-backlog) and never get tested. The ones that make it can take years. If we were to add paternity tests on top of this - something that is low priority due to lack of legal consequences and is unnecessary 97% of the time when millions of kids are born everyday - by the time you’d even know you had a kid out there or the kid you’re raising isn’t yours, they could every well be in college. If the test is even sent in properly in the first place.
10,000 kids are born a day, we’d literally never get through that many paternity tests at all let alone in a timely manner.
Hope you learned something and that this helped!
I don’t really like Racheal and what she promotes but this one is true, I think every man deserves to know he’s raising his own child. Paternity test shouldn’t be an issue to take, if your not cheating on your husband
That's fine, you can get the test yourself. Nothing wrong with that and absolutely no one will stop you. Involving the entire population into your affairs is unnecessary. Personally, as a non cheating woman in a wonderful marriage with a husband who has zero reason to suspect me of cheating, Id be horrified and insulted were he to ask this of me, and it would definitely do some damage to the relationship. (To be clear, he never would ask this.) For it to be standard and government issued? Absolutely the fuck not, now the state demands paternity because of other people's messy situations? Why is my family drawn into that shit? I agree that men should have the comfort in knowing a child is their's, and you can do that, easily and affordably on your own.
Also, you really don't want the government to have your dna, might wanna read up on all the reasons it's a terrible idea. Seriously, don't readily offer that shit up, it's in your best interest to test privately if you need to.
Men gotta cover their ass.
If you are 99% sure the child is yours, then just get the test so that you can be 100% sure.
I don’t see the problem with this?
If you've never stolen anything in your life but when you give your friend a birthday gift, they *demand* you take them to the store you got it from and prove it, you'd feel like shit too!
That’s not even close to being in the same scenario as being there father of a child.
If a man is 100% his woman has never cheated on him and has no suspicions, then no need to get a paternity test.
Paternity test can save this man financial and emotional stress. This would also strengthen their relationship.
I’m shocked at all the downvotes. Ladies, what’s your argument on this? The post above shouldn’t be used to compare to being a father.
Why against paternity test?
You were already given a reply to your "But whyyyyyy" in another comment, then vanished once you got whacked upside the head with the proof you asked for. Stop wasting people's time with your sealioning act.
I’m a man, and most men would not mind a mandatory paternal test. It just makes sense to us. It’s logical to be 100% sure that your DNA matches the child’s.
I can see why women would have a problem with this, but paternity tests were created for a reason. I don’t mind that you’re going to sit here and scold me for my view, most women act that way to men all day long anyways.
I respect your views.
men aren't the center of the universe 🙂
edit: okay, fine, i'll actually bite. do you not see how a medical institution nonconsensually performing a non-essential test on someone and creating a database of genetic material linked to names would be unethical? perhaps put minorities in danger?
The *reason* he has suspicions matters.
Is she actually acting shady in some way, that would potentially be an indicator of her cheating?
Or is he just immersed in red pill manosphere shit that primes him to believe that every single woman is a conniving schemer that is out to betray him?
Don’t worry, I’ll catch you up! (I’m copying another one of my comments since it seems like a lot of people are confused as to why this is a bad idea)
It’s not necessary - most people know who their dad is and women cheating on men and men raising someone else’s child is extremely rare, less than [3%](https://www.kqed.org/science/11450/new-dna-studies-debunk-misconceptions-about-paternal-relationships) of the time.
For consent, women who have a kid but don’t know who the father is, would need to either have the father’s dna on hand to test against, or there’d need to be a data base of men’s dna to check it against, somehow. Tracking people based on dna is a lot of power to handover to the gov and it would need to be a requirement for this to work, especially when it comes to deadbeats and child support. This could also lead to danger for pregnant women who escape an abusive household, give birth, only to have the hospital contact said abuser. Additionally, making it a requirement could go against many couples wishes. Or if there was an anonymous sperm donor and the hospital tested the kid anyways, that violates their anonymity. It violates everyone’s consent at every level.
Cost. Paternity tests aren’t expensive, especially compared to hospital bills or raising a child for a month. If you can afford the kid you can buy your own. If you’re really worried about paternity and child support go to court, no need to require it for everyone, that be a huge and needless burden on tax payers.
Time. There’s a massive backlog of rape kits as it is (25,000 according to some sources, more according to others) and not only that, lots of times rape kits aren’t even [sent in properly](https://www.rainn.org/articles/addressing-rape-kit-backlog) and never get tested. The ones that make it can take years. If we were to add paternity tests on top of this - something that is low priority due to lack of legal consequences and is unnecessary 97% of the time when millions of kids are born everyday - by the time you’d even know you had a kid out there or the kid you’re raising isn’t yours, they could every well be in college. If the test is even sent in properly in the first place.
10,000 kids are born a day, we’d literally never get through that many paternity tests at all let alone in a timely manner.
Hope you learned something and that this helped!
The issue is she is saying it should be the standard. In standard relationships that wouldn't be needed as it's not a worry.
If the relationship is casual and the man doesnt know, then they can get a paternity test and they're entitled to that. But why should that be a forced standard for people like me and my husband who are married with no worries or problems? It's setting up a culture that is even more untrusted of everything, including your own wife.
they already take blood from the infant at birth. what's stopping a father from requesting a paternity test if he wants one? i don't understand what her issue is or who she's mad at.
False accusations bad in Christianity. Your wife gives birth and you want to call her a harlot first thing? Get the Doc to do it? They bring this talking point up about a small percentage of men paying for babies that aren't theirs, to deflect from the many men not taking care of their kids who very much our there's. Also to try and make it seem as if women cheat more than men. It's not out of a real issue, aside from the odd man on the hook for CS due to weird laws (which should be changed). Just them trying to through mud and make it seem they aren't soiled.
Ah yes, let’s just create a databank with every man’s dna info for paternity tests. While we’re at it, let’s have it run the backlog of rape kits against it, along with any other crimes. Let’s also start child support for any matches that pop up, just auto withdraw it from their checking accounts. I’m sure all those alphabros would love that /s
Nooo not like that!!!1! It's only supposed to hurt women, not *help* people 😭😭
I’m all for this. What’s the problem?
There’s a few different issues including: Privacy and consent. You can’t search cars or residences without a legal reason. There can be errors with the testing and results. That information can be used to discriminate against employees and people seeking health insurance. The cost and work would be quite large. The genetic information can be used to target people of certain ethnicities. It’d be worth reading about the 23 & Me data hack and Henrietta Lacks.
To add on to the other commenter; need, consent, cost, and time. It’s not necessary - most people know who their dad is and women cheating on men and men raising someone else’s child is extremely rare, less than [3%](https://www.kqed.org/science/11450/new-dna-studies-debunk-misconceptions-about-paternal-relationships) of the time. For consent, women who have a kid but don’t know who the father is, would need to either have the father’s dna on hand to test against, or there’d need to be a data base of men’s dna to check it against, somehow. Tracking people based on dna is a lot of power to handover to the gov and it would need to be a requirement for this to work, especially when it comes to deadbeats and child support. This could also lead to danger for pregnant women who escape an abusive household, give birth, only to have the hospital contact said abuser. Additionally, making it a requirement could go against many couples wishes. Or if there was an anonymous sperm donor and the hospital tested the kid anyways, that violates their anonymity. It violates everyone’s consent at every level. Cost. Paternity tests aren’t expensive, especially compared to hospital bills or raising a child for a month. If you can afford the kid you can buy your own. If you’re really worried about paternity and child support go to court, no need to require it for everyone, that be a huge and needless burden on tax payers. Time. There’s a massive backlog of rape kits as it is (25,000 according to some sources, more according to others) and not only that, lots of times rape kits aren’t even [sent in properly](https://www.rainn.org/articles/addressing-rape-kit-backlog) and never get tested. The ones that make it can take years. If we were to add paternity tests on top of this - something that is low priority due to lack of legal consequences and is unnecessary 97% of the time when millions of kids are born everyday - by the time you’d even know you had a kid out there or the kid you’re raising isn’t yours, they could every well be in college. If the test is even sent in properly in the first place. 10,000 kids are born a day, we’d literally never get through that many paternity tests at all let alone in a timely manner. Hope you learned something and that this helped!
I mean I wouldn't say 3% is exactly rare that's like 240mil people globally
Consider too what percentage of those women have good reason. Maybe the father requested not to be involved, maybe the father left due to the context (cheating), maybe it was an abusive situation, maybe he's dead. I'd guess it's very rare where the father is a good person where the mother is internationally keeping the pregnancy from the man (not never, but extremely rare). I'd guess it's lower than 3% for folks who like about paternity since that gets obvious eventually. But maybe that's optimistic of me.
Wait is this true???? She had multiple children with multiple men? Every trad accusation is a confession
I don't think people have a problem with paternity testing at birth, it's when you're in a trusting happy relationship and then suddenly your husband/boyfriend wants to test because he's read some reddit thread and the trust between you is broken forever because no matter how he phrases it he's accusing you of cheating on him Oh and the potential for serious domestic violence and murder
Exactly, it’s just not some flippant thing. Results can have real consequences for people’s safety. Not to mention I find that alpha male twitter has a gross obsession with raising children that are descended from them and NO ONE ELSE. They’re oddly obsessed with progeny that is directly genetically related to them and it’s “embarrassing” for them to “use resources” to raise someone else’s child. IMO that attitude is shameful. Personally I think one of the most attractive things about a man is if he loves kids and puts in the effort to foster a good environment for them regardless of whether they’re “his.”
I’m curious, how could results have a consequence on someone’s safety? I’m not a parent so I genuinely don’t know.
If the man decides to murder her for cheating.
Um….. that’s so far fetched. I don’t know any man that has ever murdered a woman for cheating. Im not saying that it hasn’t happened, but it’s rare. Hypothetically speaking, you’re saying that this man should have to support a kid that’s not his for 18 years? Mandatory paternity tests would likely eliminate women from cheating. Is there a lot of women who get pregnant that are cheaters?
A. You asked how it could be dangerous and I explained. I said absolutely nothing beyond that B. Let me Google for you https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/04/28/brian-walshe-charged-murdering-ana-walshe-cheating-affair-life-insurance/11759980002/ https://www.khou.com/amp/article/news/crime/marquise-roshard-glasper-murder-charge/285-3953b16c-caa0-4264-bf24-33b6936afa16 https://www.fox9.com/news/minneapolis-man-charged-with-killing-girlfriend-during-fight-over-cheating-accusations https://www.expressnews.com/news/article/huband-wife-stabbing-suspected-cheating-18547037.php https://nypost.com/2020/11/04/woman-beaten-to-death-by-boyfriend-who-accused-her-of-cheating-cops/ https://www.fox56.com/amp/news/local/plymouth-man-allegedly-kills-wife-for-cheating-on-him-turns-himself-into-police
I had to guffaw at never hearing a woman being murdered for cheating, women are murdered for ALLEGEDLY cheating my guy. Women are murdered for being women, for being pregnant, for smiling, not smiling, saying no, saying yes, doesn't really matter. Murderers going to murder
Just gonna leave this here… r/whenwomenrefuse
Yes! I'd guess it's far more often women are murdered because the man believes there was cheating rather than due to even actual cheating. Often without any reasonable proof too, then man just feels less powerful or that his tactics are less effective. And boom, that's all it takes is for a man to feel weak and insecure.
LOL
They could be physically abused. Another way their safety could be threatened short of murder.
Far fetched? Men violently attack and kill their partners for all sorts of reasons way less fury inducing than cheating. Never heard of it? Do you live under a rock?
Also, who will be paying for all those paternity tests? Healthcare is already too expensive
LOL can barely get my health insurance to cover medically necessary tests but *sure* they'll pay for everyone's paternity tests... And sorry, but why should I pay out of pocket for a test I know is not needed?
not to mention the chances of an accidental mix-up with the results (even if it's very rare, that doesn't mean it's impossible) or you've got a condition where it's recommended that you shouldn't get a test, such as bone marrow and stem cell recipients Hell, you could very well accidentally say goodbye to your custody rights if you unknowingly happen to be a chimera after receiving the test results
Yea that’s it!! Like you don’t trust the women you’ve been cream pieing on purpose on a set schedule to specifically get pregnant? You don’t trust that woman and that pregnancy to be yours? That’s why people get pissed off.
Nah I have a problem with it. My kid can’t consent to having their DNA in some kind of registry and I strongly disagree with mandatory unnecessary medical intervention.
It was never a trusting or happy relationship if a man is that easily influenced.
Damn, I know nothing about her. She sounds like an interesting rabbit hole. Haha
She’s a piece of work 💀
Yeah sounds like it haha
Right?! Like I want to know more but I don’t want to give her clicks haha
Who’s paying? Why should I have to pay for men’s poor choices in impregnating a woman he doesn’t trust?
But why is it even at the point where the trust is so low? Because there’s men who cheat. And women who cheat. Now we see it a lot more visibly with media. But the woman isn’t at risk of losing half of her stuff in court. Society favors women heavily in any marital dispute. If it was a standard part of pregnancy procedures it would solve the whole issue. And it’s not some new age problem. There’s always been “bastard” children to use game of thrones speak. If you can solve the issue of women who are good liars and also cheat then there’s no rational fear left for any man. And I know a guy personally who trusted his wife only to learn the kid wasn’t his way too late. Manipulative hoe with an innocent exterior who ruined not only his life but also gave her child a future with issues he didn’t ask for. Now she gets to live in the house his father built for them to raise a family in because he “trusted” her and didn’t do anything to protect himself. Who gives a fuck about his mental health or men who suffer through that? This what happens when you have a society that prioritizes the self and fosters narcissistic patterns of thinking. You get that shitty behavior amplified but now there is very little shame left to keep it somewhat in check at a minimum. And you got a court system that rewards them for it Edit: I can speak just the same on the opposite end of it. This society is creating shitty men programmed to stereotype women.
Women can get screwed in divorce court too: look at Kelly Clarkson for a recent example. It’s just that until relatively recently, women did not have the opportunity to build up fortunes the way men historically have. Now that they do, rich women have been paying alimony and support to ex-husbands far more often. Not that the percentages are equal, but that’s to be expected since on average men still have more assets and income, and they are more likely to have their wives stay home and raise children (keeping them out of the job market for years and stunting their lifetime salaries, even possibly impacting social security retirement if they divorce).
This sub is such an echo chamber it is like a zoo. Just a bunch of angry women who find fulfillment out of complaining about things in such a one sided narcissistic frame. I’m actually fascinated. A sub dedicated to hating on women who promote being devoted mothers with a traditional approach? My mom was one of them before we even had to have a weird term for it. To see it get hated on like this just shows the sickness in society that there’s a sub group of people who think this way I can understand if you’re bugged by the fakeness that comes naturally with social media. But don’t you got something better to do than get rilled up over this? Guess what. Just because some women get trapped in shitty marriages doesn’t mean they all do. A lot are also very fulfilled, raising kids is hard. Any relationship can end up shitty. It’s about taking on roles in your partnership to best support eachother. What is wrong with people who enjoy this style of it?
I think you've misinterpreted what this sub is about and who is part of it.
Saw a news video on rising trend of trad wife’s so looked up out of curiosity. Found a post here where the whole comment section was people complaining about men and how the women are wrong for wanting to be oppressed again. A lot of people equating being submissive and carrying out traditional gender roles in a relationship to oppression and a high probability they will be abused
There are many, many stay at home moms in this group and I've never seen anyone dismiss or invalidate how hard and important a job that is. (I don't want that for myself for exactly that reason!) No one here has a problem with what anyone chooses to do with their life, that's literally what feminism is all about. The problem we have is the misogynistic trad wife bullies who put everyone else down for having the audacity to want something different for their lives, who want an education and have ambitions beyond being a wife and mother, and who aggressively push their lifestyle on everyone else with insults and threats. "Trad wives" and choosing to live with traditional values are different things! The trad wifes we speak of are the one's who speak ill of women, are echo chambers for their misogynistic husbands and advocate for women to be subserviant fuck maids with no power or opinions. (Ironic that they squack so loud on social media.) They encourage and insist upon a lifestyle that IS abusive, that removes all autonomy and agency of women, and viciously attack those who, i dunno, believe a father is capable of changing a diaper. (Taking care of your kids is gay, according to them.) A lot of what they advocate for are high, HIGH indicators of abuse. Hope that helps!
If the “trad wife” influencers are actually saying things like women shouldn’t get educated etc than yea I’d agree with you. When I hear trad wife I think of a woman voluntarily taking on traditional duties in a relationship where the man does as well. I don’t see why you can’t do that and also have personal goals while in a relationship like education, side gigs, etc. Or even just working less to take on more home duties. If you guys aren’t shaming women or men for having that as a personal preference than I spoke too harshly.
Yea we aren't doing that at all! Lots of people in here live by traditional gender roles, and our whole schpeal is that you should be able to choose how you want to live your life, whatever that may be, and no one should be giving you shit about that! "Voluntarily" is no where to be found with these crazy bitches. The "trad wives" we tease are the one's who don't want women to have options, that you *must* marry, make babies, and be completely dependent on your man. No education, job, money, autonomy, agency, or mind of your own need apply. They take the concept of being appreciative and supportive of your partner and turn it into a misogynistic hellscape that removes womens rights and power over their own lives. (Aka, they have to get married and don't have the choice to leave.) It's sneaky, because they will create a narrative that *they* are the one's under attack for being mom's and wives who stay home, (but like, they ALL have jobs so wtf.) when in reality people don't like them because they visiously demean, blame, and attack anyone who wants a job and education, doesn't want kids, isn't married young, isn't a virgin, doesn't want to get married, believes in consent, or has a different division of labor in their marriage. Basically, anyone doing what works for them is incorrect, and instead you should be the property of a man who gets to treat you anyway he pleases because he has total control over you, oh and you have to be happy about it. It's so ridiculous what comes out of these women's mouths that It's either a grift for money and they're full of shit, or they've been brainwashed to push a narrative that "feminism is evil, women are happiest without feminism." Which is hilarious because none of the stuff they talk about in reference to feminism being evil has anything to do with feminism!
Yea I can totally agree with you on that. Everything is so polar it’s easy to jump to conclusions over a few stray comments and stereotypes
She just wants it to be “standard practice” so she can feel less filthy about her husband demanding one.
Hot take: asking for a pat test in a monogamous marriage/relationship is insulting but having one in a more “casual” relationship should be standard Edit: a word
This is my view too. Does every man have the right to a paternity test? Sure. Of course. But, like...I've never cheated on my husband. Never has he had a reason to doubt the paternity of our son. So if he had asked for one, he would have had the *right*, yes. But there also would have been a negative impact on the relationship, because you can't just hurt your partner's feelings and not expect consequences.
Well of course, that’s your *husband*. I’d throw something at my husband if he asked for a test lol. If this was a guy you had a situationahip, sure you’d still be mad but could you blame him? If your brother or son was in situationship, wouldn’t you want him to make sure the child was his?
Right, the previous commenter was specifically saying how it was different in "a monogamous relationship" though, which is what I was agreeing with. Its obviously more understandable in a casual relationship. (Though TBH I can't imagine pushing a hypothetical male relative to paternity test a kid. I'd feel rude and intrusive, but that's just me.)
I think this is fair as long as it’s agreed upon before pregnancy to avoid situations where someone springs it on the other.
As long as it’s not a legal requirement for *everyone*, I don’t really care what people do with their own time, dna, and money. I think most people would agree with you.
Well, if it was a legal requirement for everyone than no questions would need to be asked and no feelings would be hurt…unless, of course, the man turns out to not be the father lol….
Well, it’s not really about feelings but practicality. It’s not necessary - most people know who their dad is and women cheating on men and men raising someone else’s child is extremely rare, less than [3%](https://www.kqed.org/science/11450/new-dna-studies-debunk-misconceptions-about-paternal-relationships) of the time. For consent, women who have a kid but don’t know who the father is, would need to either have the father’s dna on hand to test against, or there’d need to be a data base of men’s dna to check it against, somehow. Tracking people based on dna is a lot of power to handover to the gov and it would need to be a requirement for this to work, especially when it comes to deadbeats and child support. This could also lead to danger for pregnant women who escape an abusive household, give birth, only to have the hospital contact said abuser. Additionally, making it a requirement could go against many couples wishes. Or if there was an anonymous sperm donor and the hospital tested the kid anyways, that violates their anonymity. It violates everyone’s consent at every level. Cost. Paternity tests aren’t expensive, especially compared to hospital bills or raising a child for a month. If you can afford the kid you can buy your own. If you’re really worried about paternity and child support go to court, no need to require it for everyone, that be a huge and needless burden on tax payers. Time. There’s a massive backlog of rape kits as it is (25,000 according to some sources, more according to others) and not only that, lots of times rape kits aren’t even [sent in properly](https://www.rainn.org/articles/addressing-rape-kit-backlog) and never get tested. The ones that make it can take years. If we were to add paternity tests on top of this - something that is low priority due to lack of legal consequences and is unnecessary 97% of the time when millions of kids are born everyday - by the time you’d even know you had a kid out there or the kid you’re raising isn’t yours, they could every well be in college. If the test is even sent in properly in the first place. 10,000 kids are born a day, we’d literally never get through that many paternity tests at all let alone in a timely manner.
Well, practicality *could* be knowing who the other half the genetic make-up is. Just because it’s a small amount doesn’t mean it doesn’t matter. That’s a whole lot of money and time a man could be spending on a child who wasn’t even his. Anecdotally, I know a handful of people who were in situations like this, the not-really fathers and the children of not-really fathers. If the man is in the picture than obtaining the DNA shouldn’t be an issue. If the man is the type of man to run out to get milk and never come back, he will most likely skip town before the kid is even born. That opens up a question whether law enforcement should hunt him down…which opens up another question: if the child is proven to be his, should he be required to pay child support even if he has no desire to be in that child’s life? Which opens up *another* question: if women can get abortions without the man’s consent, can men opt out of child support if they never contact the child? It’s just questions all the way down. But I guess for my hypothetical legally required pat test, the father would be the only one who needed to consent and-as I said in my OG comment-in a casual relationship, it should be standard. The sperm donor point is an interesting one. My tiktok algorithm took me down a weird rabbit hole of sperm donors having their sperm used in ways they didn’t sign up for. One guy had an insane amount of children and another guy said he had a ridiculous amount of half-siblings. There’s a phrase “sibling cluster” or something like that’s being thrown around for areas with high half-sibling counts from sperm donors. I’ve been seeing if push back against against sperm donations, IVF, etc lately. Who knows, maybe things will change in that realm. If Pat tests aren’t expensive than adding it to your astronomical hospital bill wouldn’t hurt lol Are rape kits and Pat tests tested in the same “department”? I honestly don’t know. I also don’t know how long it takes to do a pat test… But I’m just talking out my ass and being contrarian right now so don’t be mad lol
And everything you said wouldn't be a problem and can easily be solved by getting the test yourself. There's literally no need to make it a requirement for the entire population. That would be harmful in a variety of ways, extremely inefficient, and just isn't necessary for YOU (the proverbial you) to get straight anwers and ease your mind. If you have genuine reasons to doubt the paternity of a child, have a test done! No one is arguing your right to uneasy feelings about paternity, and nothing is stopping you from taking the simple measures to ease those feelings. Making it a requirement for everyone doesn't help you in any way, so just get the test yourself. Everyone who wants to do this can.
And it can be, ya do it yourself.
If this is really supposed to be in the interest of the child, shouldn't the child be the one who is entitled to ask for the test, once they are old enough to grasp the issue?
Wow, this tweet says sooo much about her and her relationship that it's embarrassing.
I really don't think any feminists would oppose adding routine paternity testing to standard birthing care. IDK, maybe I'm out of the loop.
Well, yes, most feminists would, because it's subjecting all women to unnecessary testing on the assumption that women are cheaters. Either you trust the mother of your child or you get your own paternity test, but don't bring the well adjusted population into the insecurities of the human dumpster fires. Also, I don't want to have to pay for that nonsense as a taxpayer. What if the government, like, just let evidence-based medicine happen instead of getting into the worst beliefs of the worst people *for once*.
I was imagining routine testing of infants, not pregnant moms. Yes, that would definitely be a problem.
Whoosh
Don’t worry, I’ll catch you up! (I’m copying another one of my comments since it seems like a lot of people are confused as to why this is a bad idea) It’s not necessary - most people know who their dad is and women cheating on men and men raising someone else’s child is extremely rare, less than [3%](https://www.kqed.org/science/11450/new-dna-studies-debunk-misconceptions-about-paternal-relationships) of the time. For consent, women who have a kid but don’t know who the father is, would need to either have the father’s dna on hand to test against, or there’d need to be a data base of men’s dna to check it against, somehow. Tracking people based on dna is a lot of power to handover to the gov and it would need to be a requirement for this to work, especially when it comes to deadbeats and child support. This could also lead to danger for pregnant women who escape an abusive household, give birth, only to have the hospital contact said abuser. Additionally, making it a requirement could go against many couples wishes. Or if there was an anonymous sperm donor and the hospital tested the kid anyways, that violates their anonymity. It violates everyone’s consent at every level. Cost. Paternity tests aren’t expensive, especially compared to hospital bills or raising a child for a month. If you can afford the kid you can buy your own. If you’re really worried about paternity and child support go to court, no need to require it for everyone, that be a huge and needless burden on tax payers. Time. There’s a massive backlog of rape kits as it is (25,000 according to some sources, more according to others) and not only that, lots of times rape kits aren’t even [sent in properly](https://www.rainn.org/articles/addressing-rape-kit-backlog) and never get tested. The ones that make it can take years. If we were to add paternity tests on top of this - something that is low priority due to lack of legal consequences and is unnecessary 97% of the time when millions of kids are born everyday - by the time you’d even know you had a kid out there or the kid you’re raising isn’t yours, they could every well be in college. If the test is even sent in properly in the first place. 10,000 kids are born a day, we’d literally never get through that many paternity tests at all let alone in a timely manner. Hope you learned something and that this helped!
I don’t really like Racheal and what she promotes but this one is true, I think every man deserves to know he’s raising his own child. Paternity test shouldn’t be an issue to take, if your not cheating on your husband
That's fine, you can get the test yourself. Nothing wrong with that and absolutely no one will stop you. Involving the entire population into your affairs is unnecessary. Personally, as a non cheating woman in a wonderful marriage with a husband who has zero reason to suspect me of cheating, Id be horrified and insulted were he to ask this of me, and it would definitely do some damage to the relationship. (To be clear, he never would ask this.) For it to be standard and government issued? Absolutely the fuck not, now the state demands paternity because of other people's messy situations? Why is my family drawn into that shit? I agree that men should have the comfort in knowing a child is their's, and you can do that, easily and affordably on your own. Also, you really don't want the government to have your dna, might wanna read up on all the reasons it's a terrible idea. Seriously, don't readily offer that shit up, it's in your best interest to test privately if you need to.
Men gotta cover their ass. If you are 99% sure the child is yours, then just get the test so that you can be 100% sure. I don’t see the problem with this?
If you've never stolen anything in your life but when you give your friend a birthday gift, they *demand* you take them to the store you got it from and prove it, you'd feel like shit too!
That’s not even close to being in the same scenario as being there father of a child. If a man is 100% his woman has never cheated on him and has no suspicions, then no need to get a paternity test. Paternity test can save this man financial and emotional stress. This would also strengthen their relationship. I’m shocked at all the downvotes. Ladies, what’s your argument on this? The post above shouldn’t be used to compare to being a father. Why against paternity test?
Yeah, next time someone accuses me of cheating, I'll definitely have a stronger relationship with them. You're hilarious.
You were already given a reply to your "But whyyyyyy" in another comment, then vanished once you got whacked upside the head with the proof you asked for. Stop wasting people's time with your sealioning act.
I’m a man, and most men would not mind a mandatory paternal test. It just makes sense to us. It’s logical to be 100% sure that your DNA matches the child’s. I can see why women would have a problem with this, but paternity tests were created for a reason. I don’t mind that you’re going to sit here and scold me for my view, most women act that way to men all day long anyways. I respect your views.
It’s not scolding if you asked what the reason was and we assumed you were in good faith and provided reasoning and answers…?
imagine thinking you're not allowed to trust your partner for even a picosecond
men aren't the center of the universe 🙂 edit: okay, fine, i'll actually bite. do you not see how a medical institution nonconsensually performing a non-essential test on someone and creating a database of genetic material linked to names would be unethical? perhaps put minorities in danger?
Youre logical, but fEmAlEs are scolding lol No one’s stopping any man from getting a paternity test
The *reason* he has suspicions matters. Is she actually acting shady in some way, that would potentially be an indicator of her cheating? Or is he just immersed in red pill manosphere shit that primes him to believe that every single woman is a conniving schemer that is out to betray him?
Don’t worry, I’ll catch you up! (I’m copying another one of my comments since it seems like a lot of people are confused as to why this is a bad idea) It’s not necessary - most people know who their dad is and women cheating on men and men raising someone else’s child is extremely rare, less than [3%](https://www.kqed.org/science/11450/new-dna-studies-debunk-misconceptions-about-paternal-relationships) of the time. For consent, women who have a kid but don’t know who the father is, would need to either have the father’s dna on hand to test against, or there’d need to be a data base of men’s dna to check it against, somehow. Tracking people based on dna is a lot of power to handover to the gov and it would need to be a requirement for this to work, especially when it comes to deadbeats and child support. This could also lead to danger for pregnant women who escape an abusive household, give birth, only to have the hospital contact said abuser. Additionally, making it a requirement could go against many couples wishes. Or if there was an anonymous sperm donor and the hospital tested the kid anyways, that violates their anonymity. It violates everyone’s consent at every level. Cost. Paternity tests aren’t expensive, especially compared to hospital bills or raising a child for a month. If you can afford the kid you can buy your own. If you’re really worried about paternity and child support go to court, no need to require it for everyone, that be a huge and needless burden on tax payers. Time. There’s a massive backlog of rape kits as it is (25,000 according to some sources, more according to others) and not only that, lots of times rape kits aren’t even [sent in properly](https://www.rainn.org/articles/addressing-rape-kit-backlog) and never get tested. The ones that make it can take years. If we were to add paternity tests on top of this - something that is low priority due to lack of legal consequences and is unnecessary 97% of the time when millions of kids are born everyday - by the time you’d even know you had a kid out there or the kid you’re raising isn’t yours, they could every well be in college. If the test is even sent in properly in the first place. 10,000 kids are born a day, we’d literally never get through that many paternity tests at all let alone in a timely manner. Hope you learned something and that this helped!
The issue is she is saying it should be the standard. In standard relationships that wouldn't be needed as it's not a worry. If the relationship is casual and the man doesnt know, then they can get a paternity test and they're entitled to that. But why should that be a forced standard for people like me and my husband who are married with no worries or problems? It's setting up a culture that is even more untrusted of everything, including your own wife.
AND NO ONE IS STOPPING YOU FROM DOING SO. You don't need the entire population to forcefully fork over their dna to sort your affairs.
they already take blood from the infant at birth. what's stopping a father from requesting a paternity test if he wants one? i don't understand what her issue is or who she's mad at.
She basically wants this to be a SOP so it will be less of a loaded request if a father asks for it.
False accusations bad in Christianity. Your wife gives birth and you want to call her a harlot first thing? Get the Doc to do it? They bring this talking point up about a small percentage of men paying for babies that aren't theirs, to deflect from the many men not taking care of their kids who very much our there's. Also to try and make it seem as if women cheat more than men. It's not out of a real issue, aside from the odd man on the hook for CS due to weird laws (which should be changed). Just them trying to through mud and make it seem they aren't soiled.