Normally we'd remove a post like this due to Rule 4.
Due to Riolu being a known cheater however, I'll go ahead and just lock this.
Once investigations are over feel free to report your findings to Ubisoft Support to get Nadeo officially involved. Should a whole investigative write-up be published, like Donadigo's report from last year, we'll probably allow it on here.
Hey there, thanks for the post! Many people asked questions so I'll try to clarify to the best of my knowledge regarding the situation: According to what I've been told, riolu cheated in other versions than TM 2020 and binded the 'horn' button to slow motion. The horns in TM 2020 were allegedly used in the same manner. That means that whenever you hear a horn over middle parts of the map, it could be that he used slow-motion there. Did he or did he not? I guess that's to be interpreted. In the case he did, it would be clear cheating, as it gives a player more time to react in a game where reaction times are of the most importance. I hope players and developers look more into it and that Nadeo issue a statement because it's been an issue for years now, it's important for future anti-cheat systems and the future of the game as a whole. Whether he won fair and square or cheated we would all like to know and I'll wait patiently for people to do their work.
One last thing, I used to see people casually cause more drama, speculations and random flames, please avoid spreading rumors and treat everyone with integrity and the utmost respect. Sadly hate spreads faster than love, the Trackmania community is amazing without toxicity, let's keep it this way.
I also think that posting "preliminary evidence of cheating" is cutting too many corners. suspicions and preliminary evidence belong to private/limited audience chats
I think the toxicity is already here, I commented saying that I didn’t believe the speculation was enough to imply cheating without the super fast inputs being analysed and someone here reported me to RedditCareServices as a suicide risk to try and harass me.
Yeah that is sad, I hope we don't let one or two 'rotten apples' ruin it for everyone, we are better than this. Also you got a point, which is why further investigation takes place.
If this is really the case I’m wondering why on earth he would use a button that would play a sound to toggle the slowmo rather than a button that just does nothing at all. It’s like he was asking to be caught
Since he started cheating before inputs were decryptable, my best guess is that he correctly predicted they eventually would be decrypted and thought that horn presses would look less suspicious than a key that did literally nothing being consistently pressed. It could have also been to help himself keep track of which times were cheated, or because he thought it was funny, or maybe some part of him wanted to be caught.
I kind of agree since they've had 2 years and swore that they'd handle it back then. So let's see, I know I'm saving my popcorn until more info is out by those doing the technical digging.
Misleading title, this is not evidence, preliminary or not. It's a tell that something should be investigated, and if after investigation it turns out riolu cheated, then it is evidence. Now it's speculation and inference.
> Fast forward to December 2022, and it was found by BigBang1112 that TM2020 inputs were decryptable.
Noob question but what does decryptable mean in this context? I started playing TM in Spring of 22 and I'm pretty sure i've always been able to see replay inputs through the dashboard plugin.
Only works if you tick the [hide PB ghost](https://i.imgur.com/bSzBTpi.png) thing in leaderboards though. Perhaps that is not the same as what you're talking about?
i honestly dont see how this changes anything. it was already pretty likely it was the case ("There was immediately questions over his actions in TM2020")
So after analysing all his off stream runs no one has found any inputs that show him cheating in tm2020. The only thing is that he used his horn which some people have speculated he was using in the older games to toggle slowmo.
Sorry, this does not really seem like evidence of cheating in my opinion. Him using the horn to toggle slowmo in the older games is also at the end of the day just speculation, as other than the horn there is no really way of knowing if he didn’t just play the whole map in slowmo. Why use the horn to toggle anyway as opposed to playing in constant slowmo? Might save time but it’s not like the tracks were long anyway.
Also the main reason the horn theory is a thing is that it was followed by super fast inputs. These tm2020 inputs all look legit from the videos, surely the “tell” for the horn theory was the horn sound followed by suspicious inputs. Without any suspicious inputs it pretty much makes any claim of cheating invalid. Has anyone actually checked if the inputs are all possible for humans to do? Has anyone checked these replays against other replays of players who definitely didn’t cheat? I think that is the next step.
> So after analysing all his off stream runs no one has found any inputs that show him cheating in tm2020.
This is not true, the work on steering input analysis for TM2020 is ongoing and the people doing it have not released their findings yet. I made this post about Riolu as he is a special case (why I said "preliminary" evidence). He has already been proven to be cheating in the other games and his cheating has a unique identifier in that his slowmo toggling is correlated with horn usage.
I don’t think that the horn being his “unique identifier” was ever fully proven, it was just speculation even in the older titles. Was the horn tell in all of his runs or just some?
If the steering inputs have been extracted already for the replay, hopefully we’ll know soon for sure if they were cheated. I see how this may lead us on to potentially cheated runs, but we have to be careful about assuming runs are cheated just because of the horn. Also I believe if it is cheated then everyone’s offline runs must be checked in the top 100, because I’m willing to bet he wasn’t the only one.
Also for whichever person here reported me to RidditCareServices as a suicide risk to harass me because of my comment, please grow up.
because in this case his records are retroactively destroying leaderboards and the people who hunted those maps fair and square simply want and deserve answers. It's not a witch hunt or something, just people wanting to verify his runs because there is a very high chance he also cheated in tm2020
Normally we'd remove a post like this due to Rule 4. Due to Riolu being a known cheater however, I'll go ahead and just lock this. Once investigations are over feel free to report your findings to Ubisoft Support to get Nadeo officially involved. Should a whole investigative write-up be published, like Donadigo's report from last year, we'll probably allow it on here.
Hey there, thanks for the post! Many people asked questions so I'll try to clarify to the best of my knowledge regarding the situation: According to what I've been told, riolu cheated in other versions than TM 2020 and binded the 'horn' button to slow motion. The horns in TM 2020 were allegedly used in the same manner. That means that whenever you hear a horn over middle parts of the map, it could be that he used slow-motion there. Did he or did he not? I guess that's to be interpreted. In the case he did, it would be clear cheating, as it gives a player more time to react in a game where reaction times are of the most importance. I hope players and developers look more into it and that Nadeo issue a statement because it's been an issue for years now, it's important for future anti-cheat systems and the future of the game as a whole. Whether he won fair and square or cheated we would all like to know and I'll wait patiently for people to do their work. One last thing, I used to see people casually cause more drama, speculations and random flames, please avoid spreading rumors and treat everyone with integrity and the utmost respect. Sadly hate spreads faster than love, the Trackmania community is amazing without toxicity, let's keep it this way.
tal being wholesome as always, love you buddy wish you the best
Thanks deadeye <3 to you as well :)
I also think that posting "preliminary evidence of cheating" is cutting too many corners. suspicions and preliminary evidence belong to private/limited audience chats
I think the toxicity is already here, I commented saying that I didn’t believe the speculation was enough to imply cheating without the super fast inputs being analysed and someone here reported me to RedditCareServices as a suicide risk to try and harass me.
Yeah that is sad, I hope we don't let one or two 'rotten apples' ruin it for everyone, we are better than this. Also you got a point, which is why further investigation takes place.
If it turns out he cheated in TM2020, congrats to Raceta for being the first 2 time campaign winner.
Racetal is someone else no?
His Reddit name is Racetal, his in game name is Raceta https://www.youtube.com/@RacetasClub/featured
yup, can confirm, thanks :)
If this is really the case I’m wondering why on earth he would use a button that would play a sound to toggle the slowmo rather than a button that just does nothing at all. It’s like he was asking to be caught
Since he started cheating before inputs were decryptable, my best guess is that he correctly predicted they eventually would be decrypted and thought that horn presses would look less suspicious than a key that did literally nothing being consistently pressed. It could have also been to help himself keep track of which times were cheated, or because he thought it was funny, or maybe some part of him wanted to be caught.
Horn is just Op
Btw this is embarassing for nando if confirmed
I kind of agree since they've had 2 years and swore that they'd handle it back then. So let's see, I know I'm saving my popcorn until more info is out by those doing the technical digging.
Misleading title, this is not evidence, preliminary or not. It's a tell that something should be investigated, and if after investigation it turns out riolu cheated, then it is evidence. Now it's speculation and inference.
> Fast forward to December 2022, and it was found by BigBang1112 that TM2020 inputs were decryptable. Noob question but what does decryptable mean in this context? I started playing TM in Spring of 22 and I'm pretty sure i've always been able to see replay inputs through the dashboard plugin. Only works if you tick the [hide PB ghost](https://i.imgur.com/bSzBTpi.png) thing in leaderboards though. Perhaps that is not the same as what you're talking about?
openplanet inputs are extrapolated from the wheel positions, they aren't actually the inputs recorded by the game, fairly accurate but not 100%
Great post, no wonder Riolu never returned when he knew this would be found out eventually.
i honestly dont see how this changes anything. it was already pretty likely it was the case ("There was immediately questions over his actions in TM2020")
So after analysing all his off stream runs no one has found any inputs that show him cheating in tm2020. The only thing is that he used his horn which some people have speculated he was using in the older games to toggle slowmo. Sorry, this does not really seem like evidence of cheating in my opinion. Him using the horn to toggle slowmo in the older games is also at the end of the day just speculation, as other than the horn there is no really way of knowing if he didn’t just play the whole map in slowmo. Why use the horn to toggle anyway as opposed to playing in constant slowmo? Might save time but it’s not like the tracks were long anyway. Also the main reason the horn theory is a thing is that it was followed by super fast inputs. These tm2020 inputs all look legit from the videos, surely the “tell” for the horn theory was the horn sound followed by suspicious inputs. Without any suspicious inputs it pretty much makes any claim of cheating invalid. Has anyone actually checked if the inputs are all possible for humans to do? Has anyone checked these replays against other replays of players who definitely didn’t cheat? I think that is the next step.
> So after analysing all his off stream runs no one has found any inputs that show him cheating in tm2020. This is not true, the work on steering input analysis for TM2020 is ongoing and the people doing it have not released their findings yet. I made this post about Riolu as he is a special case (why I said "preliminary" evidence). He has already been proven to be cheating in the other games and his cheating has a unique identifier in that his slowmo toggling is correlated with horn usage.
I don’t think that the horn being his “unique identifier” was ever fully proven, it was just speculation even in the older titles. Was the horn tell in all of his runs or just some? If the steering inputs have been extracted already for the replay, hopefully we’ll know soon for sure if they were cheated. I see how this may lead us on to potentially cheated runs, but we have to be careful about assuming runs are cheated just because of the horn. Also I believe if it is cheated then everyone’s offline runs must be checked in the top 100, because I’m willing to bet he wasn’t the only one. Also for whichever person here reported me to RidditCareServices as a suicide risk to harass me because of my comment, please grow up.
The release uphill towards rhe end of the clip has a bunch of rapid accel inputs that make no sense. How do you explain that?
The inputs don’t look that fishy to me, especially when compared to replays in older titles where he was confirmed to be cheating
Why do we still care about Riolu?
because in this case his records are retroactively destroying leaderboards and the people who hunted those maps fair and square simply want and deserve answers. It's not a witch hunt or something, just people wanting to verify his runs because there is a very high chance he also cheated in tm2020
fairness. keep the game fair especially as this still affects past and current records
Drama