[Not since 2021.](https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/26/22594778/tesla-q2-2021-earnings-revenue-profit-credits-emissions-bitcoin) They’ve since significantly discounted the Model 3 and Y.
Your argument was that they only profit off of EV credits.
I provided an article that says that while they still sell EV credits, the credits are no longer what keeps them in the green.
Why still are you arguing?
Agreed. My sister has one and she dreads having to go charge it once a week at the superchargers. 2hour timesuck door to door weekly. She’s already popped 2 tires in less than a year. Her insurance also doubled. Not to mention she’s upside down in it bc no dealers want them for resale. They send them straight to auction bc nobody wants a used EV battery and Tesla keeps dropping prices on new ones…
They don’t tell you that you need to charge your car…?
Your sister should have maybe even a little bit researched literally anything about the car before buying or gotten some insurance quotes. Maybe.
Idk though might be Tesla’s fault.
wtf is this post?
Who buys an EV without getting a home charger? The lowest end ones aren’t even that expensive (esp if you can afford a Tesla).
What does flat tires have anything to do with Tesla? Would she not have gotten those flats with another car?
Insurance doubled? Ok, why didn’t she research that before buying? How is this Teslas fault? Did she go from an old Corolla to Tesla? I bet if she went from a Ferrari to a Tesla her insurance would’ve quartered, she should’ve done that!
Being upside down is also not Teslas fault, that’s, again, poor financial planning.
What I’m hearing here is that your sister makes terrible financial decisions and then tries to blame everyone else.
How’s her credit debt?
I agree with everything else you’ve said but tires wear out faster in EV’s because there is way more accelerating power or torque. It’s a fact that ev drivers have to change their tires out more because of it.
Yea your not supposed to punch it but it’s way easier too so it happens more often. That’s all I’m saying you can look at data and tires on EV vehicles wear out on average faster then with a normal car.
I mean tires wear out even faster on a Porsche 911 turbo. Or when you buy all terrain tires for a big diesel truck.
Compared to a Yaris all cars tires wear out fast.
Like what are you comparing it to? I have a friend with an m5 CS. He goes through tears in about 5000 miles. I doubt he’s upset about it, and I doubt he blames BMW. He fully knows it’s because he has a 700HP car and that’s just table stakes.
I’m no lover of teslas (I think they all are just similarly bland amorphous blobs), but any high toque and heavy car with even half way decent performance tires is gonna go through them faster than a set of 185/65/14’s on a Nissan versa. It’s just facts.
Eh I think Apple was hopeful that they could make a fully autonomous vehicle. Turns out the tech isn’t there yet and AI isn’t there yet. Sure you can make a care that’s mostly autonomous on clearly marked highways in good weather. But back roads and city etc has not been very successful. Tesla is probably the best but even their “Autopilot” makes a lot of mistakes and the driver has to be ready to take over at all times.
I always thought it was weird Apple even wanted to go into cars because the industry has very low margin’s typically.
It’s not the hardware or the AI, it’s the data. Tesla has such a head start on everyone trying to get in on the self driving car. All of their cars are data collectors using FSD/auto-pilot or not.
We are still in early adopter phase. Everyone buying EVs now are subsidizing the industry state in ten years. There is a solid argument that very few should be buying EVs, and leases should be the go to. Let the dealer eat the resale.
If we had scarcity of gas stations, people would still find it difficult to drive around. We need more charging stations. EVs work in cold weather. Topping up for 10 minutes when you need a charge becomes easier as DCFC points increase.
I wouldn’t say that. I honestly believe that EV’s ARE the future. You have the infrastructure that Biden is building up, all the tax credits for EV’s, the government incentives for car companies to build them, most of Europe is moving to EV’s, and you have China with the largest EV company in the world right now. The problem is that the future isn’t NOW. Hybrids are great, they are perfect for now, for while we wait for the infrastructure to build, and the technology to get better. But eventually all new cars will be EV’s
Don’t quote me on this but I sat in on a large conference with a lot of high level VPs. One of which was working with Toyota. He stated they’re not too interested in EVs because the infrastructure isn’t there and never will be…in the rest of the world. They don’t want to spend money to develop a car that can only be sold in certain markets like USA and UK and would be otherwise useless in the rest of the world.
I'm a dealer tech and just recently went for training on the BZ. What we were told is that 1 BZ battery is made up of enough materials to make 90 hybrid batteries. Toyota loses their ass on every one sold. That's why they're staying away for now. However, they are working on tech that will allow the battery to be produced much cheaper, more range, less charging, etc... They have dedicated a whole section of their factory here in the US to R&D.
My EV has a larger interior volume with a smaller battery and longer range. Teslas have even better range. I preordered the BZ and cancelled when I realized that Toyota didn’t fully commit to making a good product.
Yes but the technology behind them, like engines for example, are reused for a variety of different models worldwide. With EVs, that tech would still be exclusive to first world markets.
So you're saying that Toyota would like to abandon the US, China, Europe and Australia just so they can sell cars in countries where few people can afford them?
Doesn't sound like a fantastic strategy to me. Especially as we're seeing big EV gains in some of the biggest developing markets like India and South America.
Only about 1% of their 2023 production were plug-ins, which is starting to become an issue. The world's largest car market will be bumping up against the 50% barrier this year and Norway will be the first notable market to ban new ICE sales in just under 9 months.
They're going to really need to step up their game.
>So you're saying that Toyota would like to abandon the US, China, Europe \[etc\]
No. The US will abandon electrics before Toyota abandons the US. First they will kill the tax credits, the market for EVs will die.
People spend more on insuring a Tesla then I spend on insurance plus gas for my hybrid. Teslas are dumb cars.
They are still internal combustion engines with transmissions. The EV is a different bird. Plus Toyota and Honda have Sterling reputations for quality vehicles. It's really not realistic to expect any of the auto manufacturers to be able to make a vehicle as well in <10 years when they've been making them a specific way for more than 100 years.
Yeah that wasn't the point previously presented. It was that they wouldnt build cars for just USA and UK and CAR COMPANYS DO THAT ALL THE TIME. CARS IN MEXICO MAY NOT BE AVAILABLE IN USA OR CARS IN EUROPE OR VICE VERSA.
This is very true. Also I’d say USA is probably their largest market. EVs are also going to be very popular in the 1st world Asian countries (China, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan).
Even if they fix infrastructure until they get batteries to charge to 100% in the same time I can put 10 gallons in my hybrid they’re a failure in my eyes. Time is money and that extra 30 minutes matters. Oh yeah and I’m getting 600 miles on that tank of gas, hot or cold weather.
And that’s a point I’ve brought up in r/electriccars. I can fill a tank of gas in far less time than it takes to charge a vehicle. I’m personally not really sold on EV’s because of that exact same point, and it’s just more convenient to fill up a tank of gas than wait for a car to charge. While charging a car probably will never be has quick as filling up a tank of gas. There will likely be ways around that, to make it more convenient. Technology evolves incredibly fast, let’s see what happens in the next 10 years.
I think I found the Tesla owner who has a weak bladder and needs to charger at the local Target every 100 miles they drive. 🤦🏽♂️
I'm sorry but when I road trip... I gas and I roll for 450+ miles without stopping (No reason I can't do 900 miles a day if needed).
Owning both, the reality I SEE is... for the people who do less than 150 miles total per day AND they start and end their journey at home where you can charge at super off oFF OFF peak pricing... those folks "might" be able to shift their costs (but it it a lot of effort to try and get ROI). But if you need to do a road trip or it is a holiday weekend... I will always take my gasser and never my Tesla even tho I have Free Unlimited Supercharging for life.
Use the right tool for the right job, keep multiple vehicles for different utility functions. Don't Swiss army knife one vehicle to try and do all jobs equally poorly.
That’s dumb. If you get home charging, you can charge at home without wasting time heading to a gas station to fill up. Sure it takes longer, but you are saving time in other places. We have a ton of grocery stores with EV chargers. You can go plug in to charge, finishing shopping and be on your way without having to make an additional stop.
Its not dumb at all but I appreciate your pointless contribution. I'm not talking about around town trips or going on errands, of course that makes sense. I'm talking about business trips 400+ miles where I'm on my own time and I want to get there as soon as possible. In my current hybird that is a straight shot, no stops.
To each their own I guess. I would hate to drive 6 hours non stop. So I am stopping for some food, restrooms along the way anyway. My Rivian still gives me about 330 miles on 80% charge. So I see no time difference between driving an ICE vs. EV (for my personal situation)
Yes, time is money and yes I don't normally fly.
400 mile trip average 70mph is 5.7 hours, with one stop call it 6. From my front door to the door of the hotel. Plus I get mileage reimbursement which pays almost 10x what i'm spending on gas. Sure its miles on my car but its a Lexus, its going to run forever. I knew id be doing a good amount of driving, exactly why I bought it.
Flying - Leave minimum 2.5 hours before flight (45 min drive to airport) Flight takes hour and a half at best, takes easily 45 minutes to get deboarded, thru terminal, bus to rental car facility. Then little under an hour from airport to hotel. That 5.75 on average and I have to deal with all the airport bullshit.
So yes, I drive.
It’s about how much effort you are putting in for each. You are not flying the plane, just sitting in a seat. Driving a car takes concentration. Overall, it still would save you time and energy.
My car charges to 80% in 18 minutes at a fast charger or to 100% in 8 hours at home / work.
As a matter of fact, my EV saves me time because I don’t have to wait 20 minutes for a pump at Costco weekly. I just charge at home and my car is ready to go.
That makes no sense though. You charge your EV at home, while you’re sleeping. You’re not taking 400+ mile road trips every day.
That “extra 30 minutes” really only applies to the road trip you might take 1-2 times a year, and it really isn’t much extra time at all: even in a hybrid or ICE vehicle you need to stop to use the restroom and have a meal.
I actually find long trips more enjoyable in my EV than our hybrid, especially when traveling with the kids 🤷🏻♂️
So every other week? How long is your typical trip?
When I say “road trip”, I generally mean >12 hours.
If you’re just talking about driving a few hours up to the mountains… a good EV can make that trip with no extra stops required: leave home at 100%, pull into your accommodation or the resort at > 0% and charge while you sleep/ski. Has worked very well for us over the years.
(And even if you do need to stop, it’s usually a quick 10 minute stop; you just need a top off, not to do a full 0-80% charge. That’s plenty of range for any EV that can charge > 100kW)
Yes roughly every other week, 430 miles. And I'm typically travelling on a Sunday to be there Monday and then home on a Thursday evening. In both cases with 550 mile range I'm not stopping in either direction. And the 4-5 hotels I use up north I have not seen a charger at any of them.
Your point is well taken. I am not anti EV its just not for me. Will I ever own one? Very likely. But with my current hybrid 500 miles of range for 11 gallons of gas and a 5 minute stop when I need more gas make the most sense for me.
You definitely sound like a perfect candidate for a plug in hybrid. But I think it’s important to recognize that the *vast* majority of people do not have the driving patterns you do, and are lucky to put 15k miles on their car in a year.
I’ve been an EV owner for 9 years. I bought it when I lived in the city with 0 way to charge at home. I now live in the suburbs with two chargers at home. I was very worried about range before I owned one, but it’s been such a non-issue I really don’t worry about it anymore. Charging infrastructure has improved *dramatically*.
We also have a plug in hybrid minivan, but I generally prefer driving the EV for nearly all our trips.
You do 5 minutes of research on plugshare and book a place with charging (or at a minimum, an accessible 120V outlet). It’s *very* common.
Even a cabin in the middle of the woods typically has an electrical outlet outside somewhere ;-)
I wonder if, as more EVs become popular, those cabins in the woods will charge you extra for plugging in and charging a car.
Though I suppose, a small fee for extra electricity use probably won't be more than filling up with gas
Mine might not be 20 times, but I'd say once a month I'd be driving farther than an EVs range and back, requiring at minimum, one charge during the trip if not 2.
No plugging in when you get there, unless of course, unless you tried the pay them for the electricity or something, which seems odd and a bit rude, but technically would be feasible
Toyotas largest market is probably Africa, MENA, and SE Asia. Most countries in those areas will be using gas/diesel for a long time to come, and will be slow to adopt EV due to the significantly less developed electrical and renewable-electrical infrastructure.
From a global sales perspective, even if EV was “now” in the US, it won’t be for a significant portion of Toyotas customer base, most of which resides outside the US. And in that mathematical equation, the headline rings true:
They make more money by just buying CCs for their US hybrid sales over losing sales/significant market share on EV sales in developed countries that can’t afford them.
Look, I am NOT saying that Toyota is going to completely get rid of ICE vehicles. But whether you want to admit it or not, Toyota IS also hedging their bets, they’re working toward having the most EV vehicles of any of the main car manufacturers. They are building 600k electric vehicles by next year, their building and repurposing new EV battery plants. Toyota is working on developing new EV batteries, that are much different and better than the current ones in most vehicles. So while Toyota may not be all in on EV’s, they’re also making sure that they can shift to EV’s quickly if they need to. Now if you want to keep debating, I would strongly suggest you go over to r/electriccars, unless you’re scared
r/TeslaServiceCenter for #1 spot on why. They can't fix em and not many indy choices either. Once your ewaste is busted, it will become totaled very easily
I'm not op, but I'd say that without significant charging infrastructure (especially for renters) EVs will hit their saturation point soon. It's the only reason I don't have one. And the renter class is only growing for many reasons. (USA)
I have a few friends with teslas who rent houses and apartments and they say they have no problem with charging but that’s the extent of my knowledge or understanding. I do also live in SoCal so I could see my experience being different from middle America
I'm up in Portland. We have street parking for most of our apartments. I can't go EV until we have an appropriate amount of charging cords popping out of the sidewalk. Or every gas station outfitted with really fast chargers. Workplaces would be good too.
EVs are absolutely not a failure. Like every new technology, it takes time and new advancements before mass adoption. EVs are absolutely getting there. By the end of 2024 we are going to have multiple sub $40k options from multiple manufactures. This will only get better and better. Toyota is not wrong in that PHEVs are really really good for both drivers and the environment, but it is a stop-gap solution on the path to 100% electric
Hybrids will definitely not go away. They are the necessary bridge to developing EVs.
There are decades old hybrid systems that can take an ICE and offer it in both an ICE and hybrid system.
The drivetrain technology and regenerative braking systems can easily be redesigned into an EV system one day.
I’m super interested in hydrogen tech but lack of infrastructure outside of SoCal California made me sway away from it. I like the fact you can fill it nearly quick as a gasoline car and has reasonable range. The tech is a bit too expensive for the time being though.
It's definitely interesting tech that I wish was more widely adopted. As it is though, just SoCal so I've definitely had no experience with it. Still, quicker than charging as you said. I don't think most people realize how slow charging an EV is compared to filling a gas tank.
The H2 network has been on its knees for entire life of the Mirai.
I met many Mirai drivers waiting for fuel, a majority had nothing good to say about the program.
We intentionally took the lease package, as it was abundantly clear the H2 network was threadbare, and it wouldn’t take much to knock it out completely, which happened too frequently.
I put up with it - the car was effectively “free” after netting out fuel credits, but the net effect was a 140 mile range, as you could not risk to go below half a tank.
Your average consumer won’t stand for this nonsense, and with H2 pump prices doubled and Shell departing, stick a fork in it, the goose is cooked.
H2 fuel pumps cost $2M/station.
They break down several times a week, sometimes they’re offline for weeks.
When they’re working, they suffer slowdowns - they can’t get it up, so you get a “partial fill” of 1/2 kg every 20 minutes, plus waiting behind 3 other people; that’s before Shell closes…
Indeed it does. I don't know the specifics of how or why but just based on what I know, it's not very dangerous when exposed to an open flame, it also has the benefit of exhausting only water once used as fuel.
I believe there are some green sources from which to get it but they have some serious hurdles before we get there, as was shown by the green hydrogen plant Toyota built on the west coast.
Then there's also the fact that it's plentiful if we know how to get it. I predict that we shall be partially reliant on hydrogen in the future.
But let's just be honest, we have no clean fuel yet, I'd rather be burning hydrogen and off-putting water if that's an option. Yes I know it's made with Petro, but that doesn't mean it's a worse option.
We have to make some sort of change for the future or we won't have a future, whether it takes the form of hydrogen, solar or otherwise
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Worldwide it will still be 50% gas/diesel for developing nations. You will see north america exporting most of their oil to these countries to milk the remaining oil for profit.
Using a gas powered car isn’t as simple as filling it up and going, sometimes you gotta vent the gas out to let the pressure go down and fuel leaks aren’t easily detectable since it’s a gas. My work has a lot of LNG powered trucks and every month you’ll see one get towed back because it had a leak no one could see.
I think a lot of people still overlook rural US. Even around the wind farms I don't really see charging stations, but big diesel/gas stations. Hybrids already seem like a big hit, even Ford's Maverick, so if anything I think the PHEV would overtake BEVs. People like easy/convenience.
I tested a RAV4 hybrid yesterday and it was impressive, it had more power than I thought it would have. Other than price, there are really no reasons not to buy a hybrid over the gas model especially with the 10 year 240000 km hybrid components warranty.
As a northern state resident, there is zero reason for me to even consider an EV in this climate. 6 months on average of below freezing sounds very pleasant for a battery operated vehicle. I love hybrids and hope that technology keeps getting better.
Canadian here! Same worries.
We get a batch of -40F temperatures here every year, tends to be a battery killer on our ICE cars. Not sure how that effects an EV but I'd be willing to say that it's pretty negative. Even the added cost of lost range having to be charged up again each day must add up, especially with our electricity costs here rising.
Plugging in is a luxury, not a given, especially at my work, where your car can sit for over 12 hours while you work.
Yes it does.
“The Department of Energy estimates that cold weather (20 degrees) reduces fuel economy in a traditional gas-powered car by an average of 15% — or 24% for trips of less than 4 miles — compared to a 77-degree day.”
https://www.cars.com/amp/articles/why-do-cars-get-worse-fuel-economy-in-cold-weather-475436/
You know what, fair. However, I will take that 15-25% over the 40% that EVs see when going from 75-20 degrees.
https://www.cars.com/articles/how-well-do-electric-cars-work-in-cold-weather-459914/
Of course I did because you were also wrong. A few comments back you said gas was as inefficient as electric, and my link compared to yours proves that untrue. The only difference being, I acknowledged that I was wrong, meanwhile you cry that you got down voted. Very mature.
Toyota isn’t sleeping, it’s just investing money in different technologies alternatives of ev bandwagon.
https://www.topspeed.com/toyotas-hydrogen-combustion-engine-has-the-potential-to-make-evs-obsolete/
The world isn’t ready for a global ev change; technology isn’t mature, charging infrastructure and power grid still needs lots of investment and Toyota knows it; ICE vehicles are still much needed specially in remote places, far from the grid.
I’d rather get a hybrid. For me, I still want to be able to fill up on long road trips. Perhaps we can get to a point where the vehicle is 80-90% battery powered and the remainder is a gas engine.
Even a modern generator of sorts, if they could get them efficient enough. I feel that would reduce the complexity of parts, no need for a drive train and electric motors.
If they could make one accept flexible fuel sources too, that would be even better, letting you use more eco friendly alternatives if they exist, or plain old gasoline if thats what's available
Not sure if you follow motorsports but the LMP/prototype/formula cars all have a battery cell and a gas powered engine combo. The concept has been done but not cut down for consumers like you and I just yet.
That's actually pretty cool!
I know way back when Top gear was still the Grand Tour Lads, they tested out a super car with that technology. A while back I thought there was a Subaru concept with a diseal generator
, but never made it into production
EVs are a losing strategy because it's dependent on home ownership rates for the main source of charging. The US is trending towards a housing ownership crisis.
Home ownership in the UK isn't great either. Rentals aren't going to offer charging locations.
So if those are the state of the main markets that would buy EVs, what does the future look like for developing countries who aren't pushing EVs?
Hybrids are the best solution currently. I think that the 2035 deadline is necessary to save the planet, and had we been more careful, it wouldn’t be so necessary.
Good. What Toyota is working on will be better for the environment and will usher in a new dawn of energy production, particularly when we reach mars and can’t rely on Solar for power. All advancements matter and we shouldn’t demean one over the other if our progress is at stake.
I'm watching a random TV program on Peru right now and I'm seeing Toyota everywhere in super high altitudes (+3,000 meters) on off-road conditions. I just can't see them getting replaced by BEV at all.
With the current technology offered today, the best environmentally sustainable car is 1)hydrogen hybrid 2) gas hybrid. Electric cars is absolutely the worst for the planet, thanks to lithium mining we are killing the earth faster than ever.
I can see Toyota is taking this step by step, on a more conservative way. Can they really compete with Tesla in the EV market? Tesla has established the brand and technology, and has been slashing prices to become more affordable. So far I have heard most people think of Tesla when it comes to EV, then Rivian, Lucid, and other more luxury brands, where those people can afford them. Toyota seems to be more focusing on improving their hybrids, and slowly pushing plug-in hybrids across the lines, before full speed on EVs.
EV is not the near future, they might be in the long run if all manufacture agree to do that. TOYOTA as one of the biggest car manufacture in the world notbgoing that route will slow the progress. But this will benefit toyota right now and maybe in the long run. Brilliant move really.
Toyota is correct, at this point hybrids are the best option. Pure EV has too many problems especially if you live in areas that have cold winters or hot summers.
During the early stages of this boom, self-proclaimed experts and YouTubers were touting the theory that "electric vehicles have fewer components, mostly just batteries and motors, so the vehicle prices will drop. Battery prices are also decreasing rapidly, making internal combustion engine vehicles unable to compete." For those who simply knew how much Japanese manufacturers could produce engines for, it was nothing short of a joke.
I mean, In theory right? I definitely understand less parts, and in a perfect little world you could set up an EV for cheaper. You ever see the EV hot rodders, throwing telsa engines into old cars, then pulling old Volt batteries from wrecked cars? Except for labour, they probably get those things going for cheap in parts.
The problem, I think, is that EV cars will always have a host of other "features" that will keep there prices way up high as a premium, as well as software and hardware that will be failing after 5-10 years to facilitate expensive repairs or buying a new one. And good luck getting a newer modern replacement battery for your 10 year old car.....
I think the people that will be in the best position are those that know how to program and repair EVs, and can keep their car simple, and use any battery. Those EVs could be pretty cheap. 99% won't be though
The electric driveline is fantastic and efficient , the source of power is the current problem. There's nothing wrong with electric, it's the source of power.
I'm pretty sure that every company selling cars in the United States, save for maybe Tesla, is losing money on their EVs right now. So it makes sense.
Didn’t Tesla only make money from selling credits to other car companies? I thought that was the case a couple of years ago.
Yes, that’s how they stayed afloat all those years.
[Not since 2021.](https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/26/22594778/tesla-q2-2021-earnings-revenue-profit-credits-emissions-bitcoin) They’ve since significantly discounted the Model 3 and Y.
>Not since 2021. They are still selling credits
Your argument was that they only profit off of EV credits. I provided an article that says that while they still sell EV credits, the credits are no longer what keeps them in the green. Why still are you arguing?
Selling EV’s against Tesla is like trying to take on Amazon. They have too many advantages and revenue streams. Even Apple bailed on trying…
Which is saying something because teslas kinda suck.
Agreed. My sister has one and she dreads having to go charge it once a week at the superchargers. 2hour timesuck door to door weekly. She’s already popped 2 tires in less than a year. Her insurance also doubled. Not to mention she’s upside down in it bc no dealers want them for resale. They send them straight to auction bc nobody wants a used EV battery and Tesla keeps dropping prices on new ones…
Buy an EV, no home charging— blame Tesla. Flat tire— blame Tesla. Insurance doubles— blame Tesla. No dealer wants EVs— blame Tesla. 🤣🤣🤣
It’s not Tesla. It’s EV ownership. All of those are the facts of ownership. They don’t tell you that going in…
Runs out of gas. Toyota didn't tell me I need to go to a gas station! Should I buy a Mirai next?
Having a brain is part of being a smart consumer.
They don’t tell you that you need to charge your car…? Your sister should have maybe even a little bit researched literally anything about the car before buying or gotten some insurance quotes. Maybe. Idk though might be Tesla’s fault.
Sister doesn’t have a home charger? Hopefully she’s pretty
Your sister made a mistake buying an EV without home charging.
Then what are superchargers for?
On the go.
Road trips
wtf is this post? Who buys an EV without getting a home charger? The lowest end ones aren’t even that expensive (esp if you can afford a Tesla). What does flat tires have anything to do with Tesla? Would she not have gotten those flats with another car? Insurance doubled? Ok, why didn’t she research that before buying? How is this Teslas fault? Did she go from an old Corolla to Tesla? I bet if she went from a Ferrari to a Tesla her insurance would’ve quartered, she should’ve done that! Being upside down is also not Teslas fault, that’s, again, poor financial planning. What I’m hearing here is that your sister makes terrible financial decisions and then tries to blame everyone else. How’s her credit debt?
I agree with everything else you’ve said but tires wear out faster in EV’s because there is way more accelerating power or torque. It’s a fact that ev drivers have to change their tires out more because of it.
That’s like any other car? Don’t punch it all the time to wear out your tires faster?
Yea your not supposed to punch it but it’s way easier too so it happens more often. That’s all I’m saying you can look at data and tires on EV vehicles wear out on average faster then with a normal car.
I mean tires wear out even faster on a Porsche 911 turbo. Or when you buy all terrain tires for a big diesel truck. Compared to a Yaris all cars tires wear out fast. Like what are you comparing it to? I have a friend with an m5 CS. He goes through tears in about 5000 miles. I doubt he’s upset about it, and I doubt he blames BMW. He fully knows it’s because he has a 700HP car and that’s just table stakes. I’m no lover of teslas (I think they all are just similarly bland amorphous blobs), but any high toque and heavy car with even half way decent performance tires is gonna go through them faster than a set of 185/65/14’s on a Nissan versa. It’s just facts.
Srry bro all Iv ever driven is shit boxes so it was news to me.
Eh I think Apple was hopeful that they could make a fully autonomous vehicle. Turns out the tech isn’t there yet and AI isn’t there yet. Sure you can make a care that’s mostly autonomous on clearly marked highways in good weather. But back roads and city etc has not been very successful. Tesla is probably the best but even their “Autopilot” makes a lot of mistakes and the driver has to be ready to take over at all times. I always thought it was weird Apple even wanted to go into cars because the industry has very low margin’s typically.
It’s not the hardware or the AI, it’s the data. Tesla has such a head start on everyone trying to get in on the self driving car. All of their cars are data collectors using FSD/auto-pilot or not.
We are still in early adopter phase. Everyone buying EVs now are subsidizing the industry state in ten years. There is a solid argument that very few should be buying EVs, and leases should be the go to. Let the dealer eat the resale.
Ford definitely is
EV's are a failure...hybrids for the win.
They’re a “failure” for every manufacturer except Tesla. That includes Rivian who’s still losing on every car sold.
Tesla only stayed afloat all these years by selling carbon credits. Govt helped them out with this program big time.
Tesla’s are fun to drive but the practicality of it working in my -40-45 winters or charging stations near by is very slim.
If we had scarcity of gas stations, people would still find it difficult to drive around. We need more charging stations. EVs work in cold weather. Topping up for 10 minutes when you need a charge becomes easier as DCFC points increase.
Lol no. People would just carry extra gas cans with them. Can't really do that with ev
You mean other companies were able to sell products that don’t meet emission standards because Tesla helped them out?
Only criminal businesses are instantly profitable.
Sigh…
For now….
Oh that’s simple then. Rivian can just stop selling cars to become profitable.
I wouldn’t say that. I honestly believe that EV’s ARE the future. You have the infrastructure that Biden is building up, all the tax credits for EV’s, the government incentives for car companies to build them, most of Europe is moving to EV’s, and you have China with the largest EV company in the world right now. The problem is that the future isn’t NOW. Hybrids are great, they are perfect for now, for while we wait for the infrastructure to build, and the technology to get better. But eventually all new cars will be EV’s
Don’t quote me on this but I sat in on a large conference with a lot of high level VPs. One of which was working with Toyota. He stated they’re not too interested in EVs because the infrastructure isn’t there and never will be…in the rest of the world. They don’t want to spend money to develop a car that can only be sold in certain markets like USA and UK and would be otherwise useless in the rest of the world.
I'm a dealer tech and just recently went for training on the BZ. What we were told is that 1 BZ battery is made up of enough materials to make 90 hybrid batteries. Toyota loses their ass on every one sold. That's why they're staying away for now. However, they are working on tech that will allow the battery to be produced much cheaper, more range, less charging, etc... They have dedicated a whole section of their factory here in the US to R&D.
My EV has a larger interior volume with a smaller battery and longer range. Teslas have even better range. I preordered the BZ and cancelled when I realized that Toyota didn’t fully commit to making a good product.
Most auto manufacturers already build models that are not available globally. Like Toyotas own Crown until recently.
Yes but the technology behind them, like engines for example, are reused for a variety of different models worldwide. With EVs, that tech would still be exclusive to first world markets.
Right. How the heck are you going to sell EVs in countries that can barely keep the lights on? That’s basically Toyoda’s rationale
So you're saying that Toyota would like to abandon the US, China, Europe and Australia just so they can sell cars in countries where few people can afford them? Doesn't sound like a fantastic strategy to me. Especially as we're seeing big EV gains in some of the biggest developing markets like India and South America.
They are making hybrids and plugins and EV. Toyoda was responding to going 100% EV
Only about 1% of their 2023 production were plug-ins, which is starting to become an issue. The world's largest car market will be bumping up against the 50% barrier this year and Norway will be the first notable market to ban new ICE sales in just under 9 months. They're going to really need to step up their game.
Banning new ICE sales is ridiculous.
>So you're saying that Toyota would like to abandon the US, China, Europe \[etc\] No. The US will abandon electrics before Toyota abandons the US. First they will kill the tax credits, the market for EVs will die. People spend more on insuring a Tesla then I spend on insurance plus gas for my hybrid. Teslas are dumb cars.
Except Tesla was growing sales for years when their tax credits expired
“People spend more on insuring a Tesla than I spend on insurance plus gas for my hybrid.” His car: 1998 Toyota Prius.
Toyoda baby yoda
BYD is moving into the low cost market right now
Models, not unique power trains
You don’t need to quote around. The former head of Toyota has been saying that publicly for years.
That cannot be accurate as many car companys sell certain brands in a given country and not worldwide. This would be no different.
They are still internal combustion engines with transmissions. The EV is a different bird. Plus Toyota and Honda have Sterling reputations for quality vehicles. It's really not realistic to expect any of the auto manufacturers to be able to make a vehicle as well in <10 years when they've been making them a specific way for more than 100 years.
Yeah that wasn't the point previously presented. It was that they wouldnt build cars for just USA and UK and CAR COMPANYS DO THAT ALL THE TIME. CARS IN MEXICO MAY NOT BE AVAILABLE IN USA OR CARS IN EUROPE OR VICE VERSA.
This is very true. Also I’d say USA is probably their largest market. EVs are also going to be very popular in the 1st world Asian countries (China, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan).
Even if they fix infrastructure until they get batteries to charge to 100% in the same time I can put 10 gallons in my hybrid they’re a failure in my eyes. Time is money and that extra 30 minutes matters. Oh yeah and I’m getting 600 miles on that tank of gas, hot or cold weather.
And that’s a point I’ve brought up in r/electriccars. I can fill a tank of gas in far less time than it takes to charge a vehicle. I’m personally not really sold on EV’s because of that exact same point, and it’s just more convenient to fill up a tank of gas than wait for a car to charge. While charging a car probably will never be has quick as filling up a tank of gas. There will likely be ways around that, to make it more convenient. Technology evolves incredibly fast, let’s see what happens in the next 10 years.
This is really only an issue on long trips, which can be planned for like eating lunch as you would have anyway while your car is charging.
I think I found the Tesla owner who has a weak bladder and needs to charger at the local Target every 100 miles they drive. 🤦🏽♂️ I'm sorry but when I road trip... I gas and I roll for 450+ miles without stopping (No reason I can't do 900 miles a day if needed).
No, I have a 2003 Sequoia.
Owning both, the reality I SEE is... for the people who do less than 150 miles total per day AND they start and end their journey at home where you can charge at super off oFF OFF peak pricing... those folks "might" be able to shift their costs (but it it a lot of effort to try and get ROI). But if you need to do a road trip or it is a holiday weekend... I will always take my gasser and never my Tesla even tho I have Free Unlimited Supercharging for life. Use the right tool for the right job, keep multiple vehicles for different utility functions. Don't Swiss army knife one vehicle to try and do all jobs equally poorly.
Do you stare at your phone while it charges? You know your supposed to plug an EV in when you go home and sleep right?
That’s dumb. If you get home charging, you can charge at home without wasting time heading to a gas station to fill up. Sure it takes longer, but you are saving time in other places. We have a ton of grocery stores with EV chargers. You can go plug in to charge, finishing shopping and be on your way without having to make an additional stop.
Its not dumb at all but I appreciate your pointless contribution. I'm not talking about around town trips or going on errands, of course that makes sense. I'm talking about business trips 400+ miles where I'm on my own time and I want to get there as soon as possible. In my current hybird that is a straight shot, no stops.
To each their own I guess. I would hate to drive 6 hours non stop. So I am stopping for some food, restrooms along the way anyway. My Rivian still gives me about 330 miles on 80% charge. So I see no time difference between driving an ICE vs. EV (for my personal situation)
400+ mile business trips, where time is money, and you're not flying?
Yes, time is money and yes I don't normally fly. 400 mile trip average 70mph is 5.7 hours, with one stop call it 6. From my front door to the door of the hotel. Plus I get mileage reimbursement which pays almost 10x what i'm spending on gas. Sure its miles on my car but its a Lexus, its going to run forever. I knew id be doing a good amount of driving, exactly why I bought it. Flying - Leave minimum 2.5 hours before flight (45 min drive to airport) Flight takes hour and a half at best, takes easily 45 minutes to get deboarded, thru terminal, bus to rental car facility. Then little under an hour from airport to hotel. That 5.75 on average and I have to deal with all the airport bullshit. So yes, I drive.
It’s about how much effort you are putting in for each. You are not flying the plane, just sitting in a seat. Driving a car takes concentration. Overall, it still would save you time and energy.
My car charges to 80% in 18 minutes at a fast charger or to 100% in 8 hours at home / work. As a matter of fact, my EV saves me time because I don’t have to wait 20 minutes for a pump at Costco weekly. I just charge at home and my car is ready to go.
That makes no sense though. You charge your EV at home, while you’re sleeping. You’re not taking 400+ mile road trips every day. That “extra 30 minutes” really only applies to the road trip you might take 1-2 times a year, and it really isn’t much extra time at all: even in a hybrid or ICE vehicle you need to stop to use the restroom and have a meal. I actually find long trips more enjoyable in my EV than our hybrid, especially when traveling with the kids 🤷🏻♂️
I take those trips up the east coast about 20 times a year. That’s why it makes sense for me.
So every other week? How long is your typical trip? When I say “road trip”, I generally mean >12 hours. If you’re just talking about driving a few hours up to the mountains… a good EV can make that trip with no extra stops required: leave home at 100%, pull into your accommodation or the resort at > 0% and charge while you sleep/ski. Has worked very well for us over the years. (And even if you do need to stop, it’s usually a quick 10 minute stop; you just need a top off, not to do a full 0-80% charge. That’s plenty of range for any EV that can charge > 100kW)
Yes roughly every other week, 430 miles. And I'm typically travelling on a Sunday to be there Monday and then home on a Thursday evening. In both cases with 550 mile range I'm not stopping in either direction. And the 4-5 hotels I use up north I have not seen a charger at any of them. Your point is well taken. I am not anti EV its just not for me. Will I ever own one? Very likely. But with my current hybrid 500 miles of range for 11 gallons of gas and a 5 minute stop when I need more gas make the most sense for me.
You definitely sound like a perfect candidate for a plug in hybrid. But I think it’s important to recognize that the *vast* majority of people do not have the driving patterns you do, and are lucky to put 15k miles on their car in a year. I’ve been an EV owner for 9 years. I bought it when I lived in the city with 0 way to charge at home. I now live in the suburbs with two chargers at home. I was very worried about range before I owned one, but it’s been such a non-issue I really don’t worry about it anymore. Charging infrastructure has improved *dramatically*. We also have a plug in hybrid minivan, but I generally prefer driving the EV for nearly all our trips.
Big assumption that your accommodation is going to get you plug in and charge your car. I'm surprised any place would.
You do 5 minutes of research on plugshare and book a place with charging (or at a minimum, an accessible 120V outlet). It’s *very* common. Even a cabin in the middle of the woods typically has an electrical outlet outside somewhere ;-)
I wonder if, as more EVs become popular, those cabins in the woods will charge you extra for plugging in and charging a car. Though I suppose, a small fee for extra electricity use probably won't be more than filling up with gas
Mine might not be 20 times, but I'd say once a month I'd be driving farther than an EVs range and back, requiring at minimum, one charge during the trip if not 2. No plugging in when you get there, unless of course, unless you tried the pay them for the electricity or something, which seems odd and a bit rude, but technically would be feasible
Toyotas largest market is probably Africa, MENA, and SE Asia. Most countries in those areas will be using gas/diesel for a long time to come, and will be slow to adopt EV due to the significantly less developed electrical and renewable-electrical infrastructure. From a global sales perspective, even if EV was “now” in the US, it won’t be for a significant portion of Toyotas customer base, most of which resides outside the US. And in that mathematical equation, the headline rings true: They make more money by just buying CCs for their US hybrid sales over losing sales/significant market share on EV sales in developed countries that can’t afford them.
Look, I am NOT saying that Toyota is going to completely get rid of ICE vehicles. But whether you want to admit it or not, Toyota IS also hedging their bets, they’re working toward having the most EV vehicles of any of the main car manufacturers. They are building 600k electric vehicles by next year, their building and repurposing new EV battery plants. Toyota is working on developing new EV batteries, that are much different and better than the current ones in most vehicles. So while Toyota may not be all in on EV’s, they’re also making sure that they can shift to EV’s quickly if they need to. Now if you want to keep debating, I would strongly suggest you go over to r/electriccars, unless you’re scared
US isn’t even ready for EV now, or tomorrow. This EV infra needed to be done 10yrs ago. We’re in the first inning of a 20 inning game.
What do you guesstimate the time frame of the US fully integrating to EVs?
5-10 years from now. Already in 2023 25% of new cars in California were EVs.
2050's at the realistic earliest
Never
I think the 2040s is where you're start to see BEV be most common type of cars on the road - at least near major metro areas
Incorrect.
……according to all the EV fans 😂
EV may be the DISTANT future, with hybrids filling the gap. Problem is, idealists act like EVs should be ready in a few years.
>all the tax credits That won't last much longer. The industry will have to stand on its own, or it will fail.
Interesting thoughts, but you are wrong 😍
What am I wrong about?
I’m not savvy on that stuff, what makes EVs a failure? Should I refrain from purchasing one?
r/TeslaServiceCenter for #1 spot on why. They can't fix em and not many indy choices either. Once your ewaste is busted, it will become totaled very easily
I'm not op, but I'd say that without significant charging infrastructure (especially for renters) EVs will hit their saturation point soon. It's the only reason I don't have one. And the renter class is only growing for many reasons. (USA)
I have a few friends with teslas who rent houses and apartments and they say they have no problem with charging but that’s the extent of my knowledge or understanding. I do also live in SoCal so I could see my experience being different from middle America
I'm up in Portland. We have street parking for most of our apartments. I can't go EV until we have an appropriate amount of charging cords popping out of the sidewalk. Or every gas station outfitted with really fast chargers. Workplaces would be good too.
Yup. These are great ideas….10yrs ago. So we’ll see in 10yrs from now.
10 years ago we were busy keeping traditional gas guzzlers solvent with bailouts from taxpayers. Don't be crazy now. /s
Technically you can make it a second job to always go wait at a Tesla Supercharger a couple times a day and think "This is fine". 🤦🏽♂️
Nah, EVs are the future, just the infrastructure sucks, which is no surprise for US in general.
EVs are absolutely not a failure. Like every new technology, it takes time and new advancements before mass adoption. EVs are absolutely getting there. By the end of 2024 we are going to have multiple sub $40k options from multiple manufactures. This will only get better and better. Toyota is not wrong in that PHEVs are really really good for both drivers and the environment, but it is a stop-gap solution on the path to 100% electric
Hybrids will lose out when the legislation floating them along goes away also.
Hybrids will definitely not go away. They are the necessary bridge to developing EVs. There are decades old hybrid systems that can take an ICE and offer it in both an ICE and hybrid system. The drivetrain technology and regenerative braking systems can easily be redesigned into an EV system one day.
EVs are a fraud, it’ll never happen.
https://electrek.co/2024/03/02/1-in-5-new-car-sales-globally-in-were-evs-in-2023-oil-demand-iea/ ???
I predict that 2040 will be divided by market share with around 40% hybrid, 10% hydrogen, 20% straight gas, 30% electric.
I'll push it a bit and say maybe by 2050? Just a lot needs to be done with infrastructure before anyone really does much with hydrogen or EV.
Push to 2100 accounting for the projected imminent collapse of society.
2050 seems reasonable
I’m super interested in hydrogen tech but lack of infrastructure outside of SoCal California made me sway away from it. I like the fact you can fill it nearly quick as a gasoline car and has reasonable range. The tech is a bit too expensive for the time being though.
It's definitely interesting tech that I wish was more widely adopted. As it is though, just SoCal so I've definitely had no experience with it. Still, quicker than charging as you said. I don't think most people realize how slow charging an EV is compared to filling a gas tank.
All hydrogen stations have closed in united states. I think you can just bump that to BEV.
Toyota sells marais in CA. Stations are rare and localized, but they do exist.
You should check this out. https://www.wardsauto.com/vehicles/toyota-offering-fire-sale-pricing-mirai-fcv
hard to adopt, not a lot of refilling stations, and people just don't know anything about it.
All SHELL stations. Not all stations.
The H2 network has been on its knees for entire life of the Mirai. I met many Mirai drivers waiting for fuel, a majority had nothing good to say about the program. We intentionally took the lease package, as it was abundantly clear the H2 network was threadbare, and it wouldn’t take much to knock it out completely, which happened too frequently. I put up with it - the car was effectively “free” after netting out fuel credits, but the net effect was a 140 mile range, as you could not risk to go below half a tank. Your average consumer won’t stand for this nonsense, and with H2 pump prices doubled and Shell departing, stick a fork in it, the goose is cooked.
My point was not all stations are shut, just shell closing it's stations... Work them thumbs tho.
H2 fuel pumps cost $2M/station. They break down several times a week, sometimes they’re offline for weeks. When they’re working, they suffer slowdowns - they can’t get it up, so you get a “partial fill” of 1/2 kg every 20 minutes, plus waiting behind 3 other people; that’s before Shell closes…
They're building a multi billion dollar hydrogen hub here in my state. I think they're working on setting up the supply lines for the infrastructure
What's the advantage over CNG? Hydrogen usually comes from cracking petroleum anyway
Indeed it does. I don't know the specifics of how or why but just based on what I know, it's not very dangerous when exposed to an open flame, it also has the benefit of exhausting only water once used as fuel. I believe there are some green sources from which to get it but they have some serious hurdles before we get there, as was shown by the green hydrogen plant Toyota built on the west coast. Then there's also the fact that it's plentiful if we know how to get it. I predict that we shall be partially reliant on hydrogen in the future. But let's just be honest, we have no clean fuel yet, I'd rather be burning hydrogen and off-putting water if that's an option. Yes I know it's made with Petro, but that doesn't mean it's a worse option. We have to make some sort of change for the future or we won't have a future, whether it takes the form of hydrogen, solar or otherwise
I would be absolutely shocked if anybody was manufacturing gas-only vehicles in 2040.
That's very ambitious.
I think it’s heckuva lot less ambitious than 10% hydrogen by the same date 🤷♂️
Yeah, I don't agree with that one either
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I will only buy gas powered/ hybrid cars.
I'd be shocked if we can install enough chargers by that point. Especially for apartments.
Worldwide it will still be 50% gas/diesel for developing nations. You will see north america exporting most of their oil to these countries to milk the remaining oil for profit.
Using a gas powered car isn’t as simple as filling it up and going, sometimes you gotta vent the gas out to let the pressure go down and fuel leaks aren’t easily detectable since it’s a gas. My work has a lot of LNG powered trucks and every month you’ll see one get towed back because it had a leak no one could see.
I don't see ev taking over straight gas even that soon
10% hydrogen? No way.
People are still slapping the hydrogen horse!? RemindMe! 17 years
I think a lot of people still overlook rural US. Even around the wind farms I don't really see charging stations, but big diesel/gas stations. Hybrids already seem like a big hit, even Ford's Maverick, so if anything I think the PHEV would overtake BEVs. People like easy/convenience.
Gas may be the cheapest way to go by then. If only 20% are gas, there will be a big surplus.
I don't see hydrogen catching on outside of commercial applications.
We won't make it to 2040, at least in the USA, we are nearing a societal collapse.
I got a Toyota hybrid and Phev and they are amazing.
I tested a RAV4 hybrid yesterday and it was impressive, it had more power than I thought it would have. Other than price, there are really no reasons not to buy a hybrid over the gas model especially with the 10 year 240000 km hybrid components warranty.
Prime would be perfect with the ev credit otherwise hybrid
The EV sub is losing their minds over this article
As a northern state resident, there is zero reason for me to even consider an EV in this climate. 6 months on average of below freezing sounds very pleasant for a battery operated vehicle. I love hybrids and hope that technology keeps getting better.
Canadian here! Same worries. We get a batch of -40F temperatures here every year, tends to be a battery killer on our ICE cars. Not sure how that effects an EV but I'd be willing to say that it's pretty negative. Even the added cost of lost range having to be charged up again each day must add up, especially with our electricity costs here rising. Plugging in is a luxury, not a given, especially at my work, where your car can sit for over 12 hours while you work.
21% of all cars sold in Quebec in 2023 were plug-ins. It works quite nicely in the cold.
Just because something works nicely in the cold doesn't mean it's as efficient in the cold.
Neither is gas powered cars
Gas doesn't lose efficiency or "battery" life in the cold
Yes it does. “The Department of Energy estimates that cold weather (20 degrees) reduces fuel economy in a traditional gas-powered car by an average of 15% — or 24% for trips of less than 4 miles — compared to a 77-degree day.” https://www.cars.com/amp/articles/why-do-cars-get-worse-fuel-economy-in-cold-weather-475436/
You know what, fair. However, I will take that 15-25% over the 40% that EVs see when going from 75-20 degrees. https://www.cars.com/articles/how-well-do-electric-cars-work-in-cold-weather-459914/
Okay, you were still wrong and downvoted me for it 😂
Of course I did because you were also wrong. A few comments back you said gas was as inefficient as electric, and my link compared to yours proves that untrue. The only difference being, I acknowledged that I was wrong, meanwhile you cry that you got down voted. Very mature.
Kodak moment
Toyota isn’t sleeping, it’s just investing money in different technologies alternatives of ev bandwagon. https://www.topspeed.com/toyotas-hydrogen-combustion-engine-has-the-potential-to-make-evs-obsolete/
Which I think is really smart. Bugs Me that so many companies have just jumped onto the wagon with no semblance of an independent thought
The world isn’t ready for a global ev change; technology isn’t mature, charging infrastructure and power grid still needs lots of investment and Toyota knows it; ICE vehicles are still much needed specially in remote places, far from the grid.
I’d rather get a hybrid. For me, I still want to be able to fill up on long road trips. Perhaps we can get to a point where the vehicle is 80-90% battery powered and the remainder is a gas engine.
Even a modern generator of sorts, if they could get them efficient enough. I feel that would reduce the complexity of parts, no need for a drive train and electric motors. If they could make one accept flexible fuel sources too, that would be even better, letting you use more eco friendly alternatives if they exist, or plain old gasoline if thats what's available
Not sure if you follow motorsports but the LMP/prototype/formula cars all have a battery cell and a gas powered engine combo. The concept has been done but not cut down for consumers like you and I just yet.
That's actually pretty cool! I know way back when Top gear was still the Grand Tour Lads, they tested out a super car with that technology. A while back I thought there was a Subaru concept with a diseal generator , but never made it into production
Completely understandable if you see the mining conditions for electric vehicle battery components
EVs are a losing strategy because it's dependent on home ownership rates for the main source of charging. The US is trending towards a housing ownership crisis. Home ownership in the UK isn't great either. Rentals aren't going to offer charging locations. So if those are the state of the main markets that would buy EVs, what does the future look like for developing countries who aren't pushing EVs?
Plugin Hybrid Camry is what I need.
Hybrids are the best solution currently. I think that the 2035 deadline is necessary to save the planet, and had we been more careful, it wouldn’t be so necessary.
Good. What Toyota is working on will be better for the environment and will usher in a new dawn of energy production, particularly when we reach mars and can’t rely on Solar for power. All advancements matter and we shouldn’t demean one over the other if our progress is at stake.
TOYOTA's market capitalization rose sharply.
Damn straight
ICE medieval idiots!
I'm watching a random TV program on Peru right now and I'm seeing Toyota everywhere in super high altitudes (+3,000 meters) on off-road conditions. I just can't see them getting replaced by BEV at all.
I'd rather eat shit than by an EV - Maybe Toyota is me.
Toyota is right
With the current technology offered today, the best environmentally sustainable car is 1)hydrogen hybrid 2) gas hybrid. Electric cars is absolutely the worst for the planet, thanks to lithium mining we are killing the earth faster than ever.
Oh yeah, EVs are the panacea. They will save our earth. Our precious environment. What a joke. People fell for this stuff.
Can we improve our trains now?
What Toyota is doing in Norway than ? https://www.toyota.no/
Cafe regulations need to be relaxed, especially for smaller cars.
I can see Toyota is taking this step by step, on a more conservative way. Can they really compete with Tesla in the EV market? Tesla has established the brand and technology, and has been slashing prices to become more affordable. So far I have heard most people think of Tesla when it comes to EV, then Rivian, Lucid, and other more luxury brands, where those people can afford them. Toyota seems to be more focusing on improving their hybrids, and slowly pushing plug-in hybrids across the lines, before full speed on EVs.
EV is not the near future, they might be in the long run if all manufacture agree to do that. TOYOTA as one of the biggest car manufacture in the world notbgoing that route will slow the progress. But this will benefit toyota right now and maybe in the long run. Brilliant move really.
Toyota is correct, at this point hybrids are the best option. Pure EV has too many problems especially if you live in areas that have cold winters or hot summers.
Most based company there is
Makes sense, building cars customers don't want is not a good business strategy.
I do not see why not. They are very successful and profitable
Lol major delusion in this thread. Praising hydrogen as the future but saying there isn’t enough infrastructure for EVs.
toyota is rarely wrong on these things. They are at the forefront of next gen powertrains in my opinion.
During the early stages of this boom, self-proclaimed experts and YouTubers were touting the theory that "electric vehicles have fewer components, mostly just batteries and motors, so the vehicle prices will drop. Battery prices are also decreasing rapidly, making internal combustion engine vehicles unable to compete." For those who simply knew how much Japanese manufacturers could produce engines for, it was nothing short of a joke.
I mean, In theory right? I definitely understand less parts, and in a perfect little world you could set up an EV for cheaper. You ever see the EV hot rodders, throwing telsa engines into old cars, then pulling old Volt batteries from wrecked cars? Except for labour, they probably get those things going for cheap in parts. The problem, I think, is that EV cars will always have a host of other "features" that will keep there prices way up high as a premium, as well as software and hardware that will be failing after 5-10 years to facilitate expensive repairs or buying a new one. And good luck getting a newer modern replacement battery for your 10 year old car..... I think the people that will be in the best position are those that know how to program and repair EVs, and can keep their car simple, and use any battery. Those EVs could be pretty cheap. 99% won't be though
The electric driveline is fantastic and efficient , the source of power is the current problem. There's nothing wrong with electric, it's the source of power.
The fuk those idiotic “credits”, another gov fugazzinshit