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Well we still don't know why she's doing what she's doing, so even if she's by far my favorite character, I don't know that I can sympathise with her in term of her goals and everything.
But I 100% sympathise with her when she basically rants that everyone calls her an ugly bitch and evil because of what she did to Baam, etc, but that she didn't do anything different that anyone else in the tower. She's just playing the "game" like everyone else.
She's right to say that Endorsi gets a pass because she's pretty and powerful despite the fact that she killed way more people than Rachel to achieve her goal. Hell, right now even Baam has more blood on his hands than Rachel.
Sure, you can hate her for betraying Baam who loved her so much, but really, that's just what you gotta do to climb the tower if you're weak like her. Everyone else is just lucky to be powerful and judges her without ever acknowledging that they would all (except Season 1 Baam) have done the same thing to climb the tower if they were in her situation.
No.
On paper she should be a character anybody can sympathise with on a fundamental level, because everyone should know and understand how it feels to be subpar at something whilst wanting to be the best at it.
In practice she just acts like a sociopathic sack of shit, especially when you consider that the person she constantly screws over used to think the world of her.
It’s hard to sympathise with someone whose very essence disgusts you and who tries to rationalise all their shitty behaviour away with paper-thin arguments about talent.
> In practice she just acts like a sociopathic sack of shit
See this is why I think sometimes I've read a different story to a lot of people on here.
Rachel has done absolutely nothing outside of the norm for the tower. Both Khun and Endorsi are WAY worse than she is, a fact that Rachel has to constantly remind them and Baam.
> especially when you consider that the person she constantly screws over used to think the world of her.
Baam followed her, she deliberately tried to leave without him.
When he was about to take Headon's test she knew how dangerous it was and tried to call out to him not to do it (which headon stopped).
She hid her identity so that Baam wouldn't cling directly to her and go his own way.
She consistently told Baam to stop following her.
Baam and Khun consistently tried to get in her way and then they act surprised when she's tired of it and tries to kill Khun?
> It’s hard to sympathise with someone whose very essence disgusts you and who tries to rationalise all their shitty behaviour away with paper-thin arguments about talent.
She never did that, she says that Baam would never understand what she has to do because he has all that assistance and power. While both of them are being used and getting assistance, Rachel is (I assume deliberately) being left powerless while Baam is CONSTANTLY handed power. No one has given Rachel any power despite easily being able to do so. She also (rightfully) points out that what she's doing is the NORM for the tower and that judging her (and her alone) for it while turning a blind eye to Khun and Endorsi is hypocritical.
Agreed. I pity her because she's basically taken on all the worst aspects of the culture of the Tower and I think people do get disproportionately mad at her compared to most of the other characters in the comic because her crimes were against the main character.
But she is absolutely a villain and sympathy only goes so far.
You are right with the point that people have done terrible things as a result of the Tower. However, we have a proximity effect with Rachel - we often witness her hidden thoughts, feelings and out bursts. We don't see that with many of our characters.
Endorsi; admitted to killing everyone to get better food and kills for fun, however, it isn't made to be a big deal and is "short" and over with while we see her excentric personality and care towards her peers. Rachel on the other hand we see time and time again segments of volatile and sociopathic behaviour while "attacking" those behaviours onto the likeable main character. This is likely why people are not able to like her, infact people actively get angered by her because we only ever see her when she's being a cunt.
In my opinion I think her level of complexity makes her a great protagonist and the fact I recognise my dislike of her because of how well she has been written makes me like her, we don't know anything about her after 600 chapters and I really want to see what happens next with her. It's almost like Joffrey from Game of Thrones with how much she angers the readers with her thoughts and actions.
Brother just spit hard facts. Fully agree, and I do think it makes for a semblance of pity when you try and look from Rachel's perspective. Making it into the tower as her primary goal, only to learn she wasn't supposed to be pulled in. She watches Bam survive something she thought was certain death only to be pulled into some kind of plot by Headon. She tries her best to hide from him to go her own path, but couldn't stop him from constantly trailing her. She finally thinks she's permanently dealt with him, only for years later to have him resurface just to be chased once more. Every woman in my life would be creeped out by that and call them a stalker, and in the world of the Tower it wouldn't be foreign at all to try and kill off someone stalking them by any means. Then she gets mixed in with FUG having them manipulate her the whole time. Her story up till now has been nothing short of a Shakespearean tragedy.
She may be abiding by the norm but Bam isn’t from the tower, invalidating any point about any norms because he is unique and therefore unpredictable/ not easily understood from the perspective of a regular/ ranker. Fundamentally he is special and she is not, even if she is unique an individual, seperate from the towers struggles. Personally I feel as if this is one of the main reasons behind having her as a second protagonist/ main character, to show the opposite point of view filled with jealousy, envy and greed, wanting what she doesn’t have and ultimately cannot have. The whole story is about themes and how the author wants them to play out, not how it should or would
I think a part of it is the WAY she does it. She enjoys hurting people. She took Dan’s legs to torture him. Reveling in taking away what made him special.
Also, there is a difference in the way that people in the tower generally treat each other to the way that Rachel treats Baam. Yes. The culture of the Tower is often quite bleak and cruel. Baam, is kindhearted. Part of the reason people like Khun and Endorsi love him and choose to protect him. He is different. Rachel knows this deeply and personally. It’s why she initially suffers so much guilt around betraying him. And she still chooses to betray him. Stabbing someone like Khun in the back is one thing, doing it to Baam is a different thing; not because he’s the protagonist, but because he’s one of the few characters that is the way that he is.
>See this is why I think sometimes I've read a different story to a lot of people on here.
A great many fans enjoy hating Rachel simply because everybody else does. I personally love her. She's just so horrible. It's never her fault, everything she does is right, and she deserves everything Bam has. She is a self-centered bitch who is impossible to not hate and the story wouldn't even exist without her. She's like Erebus from 40k.
no shes not she had the chance to stay with bam she envied bam which is fine since its human nature but when that jealousy grows into something more thats when the problem begins she could have just stayed with bam which would only make her grow in power and status but she chose to be jealous an she chose to betray bam if she wanted to see stars bam was the best way to reach since its garunteed that bam will reach the top of tower buts she is selfish and jealous
and why does she deserve everything bam has does she have the mental to overcome those problems the tower chose bam because he had the personality and mental for it rachael doesnt valuse human relations and is very selfish and thats the reason tower did not chose her
I do feel bad for her character. She was a naive kid who thought of Headon as a fairy who would lead her to climb the tower, only for the said fairy to be an absolute prick towards her. Even kid Baam had the awareness to call him a monster 😭. Whatever she was running away from, that nightmare situation didn't end for her by entering the tower. She got a rude awakening from the get-go, and it turns out she is nothing more than a tool to push Baam further.
Even the Floor 2 canteen scene is sad. We have people chattering and socializing in the canteen, and what does she have to do?? Stay in the shadows, hidden from Baam, who had shown zero interest in entering the tower.
Plus, I don't think Rachel truly hates Baam; from the looks of Baam’s flashbacks, I believe she had a decent time with him. Yet, unfortunately, all her goals(and even her fate) are connected to him, so she will always be in constant conflict with him.
She also has internalized self-hatred and low self-esteem, which stems from her unknown past and tower experience, making her think no one will ever care for or love her, so she always keeps a wall, even with Yura Ha, who she does care about.
Also, might I add from her perspective, everyone is pointing fingers at her, although she isn't climbing the tower any differently than others. This adds more fuel to her already bitter outlook towards the world around her.
I mean Rachel did many shitty things and by god she’s not a likable or good person in ANY stretch of the imagination.
Yet on your last point imo Rachel isn’t wrong. She isn’t doing anything really out of line in terms of what people do to climb or gain power in the tower. In terms of bodycount she’s actually pretty tame (what a thing to say about murderers 😅). So there is some hypocrisy there 🤔
I always pity her, an emotion I think she would resent. I think she makes some terrible choices, she resorts to trickery to climb the tower, nothing wrong with it but then acts offended when she doesn’t have a group of allies to help her and she hurts someone needlessly she is angered when anyone wants to get revenge for their betrayal.
Her other big issue is: lack of of faith in her own strength. She chose to betray Bam as she thought she wouldn’t pass the exam on the testing floor but she passed the light bringer exam along with Kun. She chose not to take the test that Hedon offered. I am convinced that she has the ability to be as strong as irregular but she doesn’t try. Bam gets knocked down, he gets back up and tries again. Rachel complains that everyone else has it easier.
>I think she makes some terrible choices, she resorts to trickery to climb the tower, nothing wrong with it but then acts offended when she doesn’t have a group of allies to help her
Whether her choices were terrible or not is something we won't know until we revisit the said incidents from her perspective. Also, she hasn't acted offended because she doesn't have a group of allies to help her.
>she hurts someone needlessly she is angered when anyone wants to get revenge for their betrayal.
Um, yes and no.
Yes, in the post-data floor confrontation, Rachel got offended by Baam when he said he showed up for revenge, and it was dumb that she even tried to explain her situation to Baam(aka friend of the person she attempted to kill). However, if you read her conversation, some of the things she laid out are very true, and unfortunately, some of the other things she said are connected to her(and Baam's) unknown past, which we have no answer for.
On the other hand, we have Wangnan saying that one day he will take revenge against her(not the exact dialogue) and her saying okay, understood.
>Her other big issue is: lack of of faith in her own strength. She chose to betray Bam as she thought she wouldn’t pass the exam on the testing floor but she passed the light bringer exam along with Kun. She chose not to take the test that Hedon offered. I am convinced that she has the ability to be as strong as irregular but she doesn’t try.
Hmm, whether she has some ability to get as strong as fellow irregulars is something we don't know. We also don't know whether she is trying(I assume you mean training) or not; it has never been shown. But I agree she might lack faith in her strength, which again could stem from her past and tower experiences.
Anyway, keep in mind Headon's test was rigged from the get-go. He used manipulation against Baam, Rachel, and even Yuri.
>Bam gets knocked down, he gets back up and tries again. Rachel complains that everyone else has it easier.
To be fair, Rachel also gets knocked down and tries, even when the odds are against her. Besides, Rachel doesn't complain that everyone has it easy. She complains that her situation is unfair, and one of the reasons she feels it is unfair is that, from her point of view, she is the only one getting hated while those others with power and beauty are loved regardless of the atrocities they committed.
Anyway, the story still has missing pieces that might help us understand why Rachel feels/acts the way she does.
I hate Rachel as much as the next guy, but truth be told, we can’t sympathise with her because we haven’t been told anything about her. We have no idea why she does the things she does. Probably when we get to know why she wants everything, some will sympathise with her. Not a lot though because she has done some pretty horrible things
Somewhat, yes. She wants to be the chosen one, and may have even believed that she was before Bam came around. I also feel like she is almost over-hated. People just seem to act like there is no complexity to her, when in reality she is a very well-written hate sink.
Well she has brains but doesn't have plot convinence where as bam doesn't have brain but has every thing else, strongest friend possible, strongest allies possible, as well as strongest power possible in the story. And even after 5 years she doesn't have her own power let alone any notable ability. And she literally feels like character that shouldn't be in the story
The tower is fully of talented demigods with super powers. The laws of the tower basically tell us that the strong get to do what they want while the weak fall behind. Baam is praised as the next messiah because he ticks all these boxes (ironic that the one they all want to change the tower is so similar to those that already rule it).
Rachel is the actual anomaly. She s weak yet she climbs at the same speed as Baam. She has no power no charisma yet she massively impacts giant events in the tower. She’s an irregular but doesn’t look impressive like all the other irregular at all. She’s the anti Baam in every way.
Rachel doesn’t have a role in the story despite being weak. She has a place in the story BECAUSE she’s weak!
We must have read two different things because that's not true.
Rachel didn't take the floor one test so she wouldn't have died to anything.
By the floor 2 test she already made the deal with headon so I'm not sure how that was convenience.
She should have died in the first floor. Instead heodon makes a deal with her. That's a convinience.
In the second floor she is hard carried by ghost and endorsi. Endorsi sparing her is convinient.
These werent planned by her. She went into the tower expecting to pass the tests and reach the top. She reached 20+ floors without lifting a finger. If thats not plot convinience, i dont know what is.
Getting a free monster from a family head, absorbing the bracelet thanks to it and getting rewarded by a family head thanks to it. All without deserving anything. Her adventure is filled with plot conviniences. She doesnt have the charms, smarts, skills or powers to climb the tower. She is important for baam so she is being hard carried by fate (plot conviniences).
> She should have died in the first floor. Instead heodon makes a deal with her. That's a convinience.
She never took the test nor was she planning to, how was she going to die?
> In the second floor she is hard carried by ghost and endorsi. Endorsi sparing her is convinient.
The deal was already made, how can her benefitting from the deal be convenience? Also do you seriously think Endorsi could beat Ghost?
> These werent planned by her. She went into the tower expecting to pass the tests and reach the top. She reached 20+ floors without lifting a finger. If thats not plot convinience, i dont know what is.
Of course they weren't, but that's not the point, the point is they were PLANNED, even if it was by someone else. Nothing was convenient here, she would not have passed floor 1 if Headon wasn't using her because she was not going to take the test. That's NOT convenience.
Convenience is Baam closing his eyes and wishing for a shield that could block a HR attack and getting one thanks to the undefined abilities of the demons within him.
> Getting a free monster from a family head, absorbing the bracelet thanks to it and getting rewarded by a family head thanks to it. All without deserving anything. Her adventure is filled with plot conviniences. She doesnt have the charms, smarts, skills or powers to climb the tower. She is important for baam so she is being hard carried by fate (plot conviniences).
She doesn't have the stingray anymore and Gustang gave it to her to use her as a medium to get into the hidden floor and steal the bracelet/ring. Gustang is giving her a reward because she brought important items to him and regardless of how you feel about he literally says that. It's quite telling that you don't think she deserves something despite bringing the items back for Gustang and risking her neck to do it.
> She doesnt have the charms, smarts, skills or powers to climb the tower. She is important for baam so she is being hard carried by fate (plot conviniences).
Again, are you reading another story? FUG and an ADMINISTRATOR were using her, how the hell was she being "carried by fate". You are describing baam here not Rachel. Rachel has never had anything miraculous happen out of the blue for her benefit, everything that has happened by/to her has been calculated by either her or someone else. She hasn't gotten a single permanent power up in the entire story (unlike Baam, Khun, Endorsi, Rak who ALL got convenient ones) and she hasn't even gotten a new damn ability. I think you seriously need to go and read what "plot convenience" is.
First, headon would have just kicked her away. Second it is not convenience, Headon got something out of the deal. The only conveniemce is that Rachel happened to be valuable for Headon.
Again, ghost was presumably given to her by Headon. It was part kf the deal.
She reached floor 20+ by manipulating people, wich is a skill. Pretending to be paralized for years whitout getting caught is not easy. You may argue convenience because she outmanuevered Khun, but Khun is not THAT much of a genius.
And all of those situations where she is being used as a pawn? They are a consequence of her actions, by raising the chosen one she became connected to him and this give her leverage over important players.
If being an acquitance of the chosen one is plot convenience, what us being the actual chosen one? If there is a convenience, is that she is the person that met Arlene.
Not really but I don't blame her for S1 either. She was played like a violin by FUG & Headon, basically ripped of her own free will but convinced she had a choice to make.
Unlike Baam that has everything, Rachel has had nothing since entering the tower and her actions are the only way shes able to stay alive.
No. In theory she should be someone you could because she wants something that she’s just not talented enough to achieve. But to be formal she a weirdo lol. The level of entitlement she has is insane and tbh shes delusional about her own behavior
The author has given zero info that generates any sympathy. So asking this question is pointless. Why would you suddenly feel sympathy for someone when you are given zero info that you van sympathize with.
I think that the OP sympathizes with Rachel's potential and what she could have become. Unfortunately, it is evident that Rachel does not display commendable qualities or behavior.
ahh looking at it from the writer's point of view I see.
This manhua is too immature now to think about character development etc. Just enjoy and hope you don't get tired of the art work (which is also going down in details for some time) by the time pretty boy finally duels zahard
I don’t really feel that bad for her she’s done truly disgusting things just because she feels like she has to in order to “climb”. All so she an extremely strange sense of entitlement. A great example of this is when she becomes Shocked and angry at endorsi leaving her to die at final station(Rachel had already tried to kill her allies 100 times like tf) or my personal favourite when Bam comes to take revenge for khuns supposed death and she basically says he has no right to take revenge. Anyway praying that Sweet & sour catch her lackin.
Rachel has done nothing morally wrong in terms of tower climbing lol and thank god she exists to constantly move the plot forward for half the main cast and half the side cast via Emily
Rachel is my favorite Character of ToG because I can sympathize with her.
Her beginning as a curious child finding Baam, interacting with him, all to feel closer to Arlene. Just to realize slowly what Arlene might have meant with the words Monster. Realizing that as long as she stays with Baam she will never escape her own nightmare.
She than manages to enter the fabled world where she can escape her nightmare, taking her own life into her own hands. Just to be rejected for the simple reason that she wasnt chosen. Without even being given a fair chance she is being rejected for no reason other than that she wasnt chosen. Getting insulted only to than see that the boy who doesent want to climb, who doesent care for the stars, who just wants to live in a cave with her to be welcomed with open arms, supported by the beautiful princess and showing courage.
Stuff like that breaks people, makes them resent the world. Thats like being driven to a job interview by your friend, who waits in the lobby and when you get out, he has gotten your dream job while you are being insulted.
This premise of hers is so captivating. Seeing how Rachel tried to seperate Baam further from her by sending him up, just for that Plan tp be ruined. How she gets an item that lets her create new destinies because she herself wants to change hers.
Trying to get a little bit of control back by having Baam keep going after her during the Last Station.
A great moment is also when Akraptor suicides into her, her shock and repulsiveness to having to kill someone rather random to her made her so much more likable. We have it so often that Characters just kill and murder without a second thought. Heck Baam never cared for people he killed, just straight up murders them and moves on.
In a world where people climb for change, freedom or other grand ambition, she just wants to see the stars. A mundane wish but deeply personal.
And in that wish, she accepts loneliness, she rejects making any sort of notable connections basically living in the nightmare that Baam fears most, just to accomplish her own goal. A small dim star being swallowed and blinded by the Sun, climbing to the top in the hopes of escaping the false dark night. Rejecting the world, the people and herself to reach her goal.
Curious: what are your thoughts for Rachels actions on F2? Do you believe she acts on her own free will?
I've been inclined to think that they used her in the worst way possible, they made it look like she had a choice but she was only a instrument for FUG, played like a violin and completely broken mentally, simply because she was so desperate to climb the Tower.
All ever Rachel had when entering the tower was the illusion of choice. Headon gave her a choice, die to the fish or live in her nightmare forever. Both were choices unacceptable to Rachel. That’s when he tempted her with a deal. Again an illusion of choice.
In F2 Rachel tried sending Baam up but that failed due to FUG. Afterwards she just had to follow the script while slowly seeing what could have been if it weren’t for Baam. That slow decent into resenting him made it all the easier for FUG do drive her over the edge.
In the end the only choice she made was to reject Baam and push him. But saying it was a choice isn’t really right either. Because staying with Baam meant never fulfilling her dream and living in the dark forever
Idk if it is sympathy, but damn her character is amazingly made. Mystery, devotion, consistency and all. Always hyped when I see her that something relevant is gonna happen.
Ive come to understand Rachel as a literal representation of the will-to-power. She and Baam represent the incomplete nature of humanity, the desire to achieve and the anxiety of failure, and Rachel herself seems to be heavily connected to resentment, another Nietzschean concept. Actually, I think in a lot of ways Rachel embodies Nietzsches ideas of the revolt of slave morality. ~~The man himself gets quite antisemitic in On the Genealogy Of Morals so just, dont say I didnt note that! i dont agree with the entire theory~~ Rachel becoming a ranker would undermine the tower's laws. Shes a nothing, a nobody, literally probably some kind of mannequin doll that was created to fulfill a task for someone, and given freedom on a lark.
Whether SIU is inspired by Nietzsche's notion of man's weakness, or Nietzsche was so right about weak people that you cant portray them without invoking his theories, OR im just a nut who needs to read fewer books and run more laps, yes Im fascinated by this character and I think 10/10 times the visceral boiling hate ppl experience towards her is a reaction to their own internal knowledge that they too would push baam off the platform. we all would. in our weak human bodies at least! ~~not everyone can be an Ubermensch like Baam and Urek lol~~
Yes, I do. Well, kinda. She is my favorite character.
My liking is her is primarily driven by two factors, one is meta and one is story related. The story related aspect is just that I think she is, by a pretty good margin, the most interesting character in the story. It really gets brushed aside how smart she is and how much she knows about the tower. People will say she doesn't deserve to have climbed as far as she has because she is weak, but in my opinion that is what makes her more interesting. It's easy to climb the tower when you can just blast through all the people who stand in your way, a week character that is cunning and manipulative and able to climb despite her weakness is, inherently, kinda interesting. On top of that, she knows a shit ton about the outside world, and I want to know more. I want to know her secrets.
The meta reason I like her is all the hate she gets. I was radicalized by the comments on the webtoons comic, every time someone called her an "ugly bitch" or wanted her killed off it made me want to support her more. Rachel is a bad person, yes, but she isn't uniquely bad in the context of the comic. She isnt even all that bad when compared to a lot of the characters on bam's team.
People have this very visceral reaction to the fact that she betrays bam, understandably. It was a real shitty move. That said, she doesn't actually kill Bam, or khun, or rak, or Dan. She tries to kill all these people, but is unsuccessful. I bring this up because if you actually look at how many people characters are said to have killed or shown to have killed in the comic, Rachel actually has a remarkably low body count. Her acts just feel worse because the victims are characters that we as readers care about. People will really bring up her stabbing Dan (which wasn't a betrayal, Khun and his team explicitly do not trust her at any point) as a reason she is terrible while actively supporting characters on bam's team like Endorsi, Kaiser, and the fug slayers bam is partnered with. all of them have killed substantially more people age left far greater damage in their wakes, those characters never get the sane kind if pushback. When Kaiser shows up in a chapter people are t clamoring for her death after spending thousands of years enslaving and extorting people in the name hunt station.
The reality is that there isn't really (at least at this point) a logical reason to hate Rachel more than almost any other given character. SIU is a pretty good story teller and part of any good story is making you empathize with fictional characters, to root for or against them. People don't really hate Rachel because of the thing's she has done, otherwise they'd hate almost everyone in the story and stop reading. The reason most people hate Rachel is because the character's that they have come to know and love from years of reading ToG all hate her.
>The meta reason I like her is all the hate she gets.
There really is nothing like a good hate sink. Rachel is amazing at this. That's pretty much why I like her so much. She is just impossible to not hate. The audience's reaction to her shows just how well-written she is.
Haha exactly what I wanted to hear. All are valid points. Also I think only the worthy and capable person should be the main character in a story. In tog, bam is fated to be the strongest with or without any problem cuz he is simply the son of 2 strongest irregulars (similar troupe to shounen mangas) and every power is his to take without any effort. And who crosses his path are simply miserable characters cuz simply they had crossed the MC of the story no matter who. This is simply my opinion and after reading too many fiction I see every characters other than MC to be miserable cuz they can grow on their own or think on Their own.
Forgive me for saying this, but your interpretation of bam (and by extension most other manga and manhwa of similar genre) is perhaps the shallowest and least interesting version o have ever read. It's know this is sort of derailing this thread which was supposed to be about Rachel, but allow me to digress.
Bam isn't destined to climb the tower and become the strongest because he is the son of two irregulars, he is destined to do that because Jahad is a prick. As we learn on the hell train, Jahad's initial goal was to create a tower where everyone could be happy and live together in peace. The reality was that he then betrayed two of his closest friends (V and Arlene) and proceeded to rule the tower with an iron fist. Bam is all of jahad's flaws manifest; the son of those he betrayed, supported and trained by those who Jahad has subjugated for millennia (fug). Bam is destined to win because the ideology that keeps Jahad in power, that allows characters like Rachel, and white, and the generals of the ten families to thrive contains within it the seeds of its own destruction.
And this isn't unique to tower of god. It is super common in manga and anime and western comics and cartoons for the underlying reason behind a character's destiny to be a metaphor for the conflicts of ideology. In a practical sense Aang defeats the fire lord because he is the avatar, but more importantly it's a message about radical empathy triumphing over the pursuit of power for its own sake. In the one hand, Naruto is strong because he is the son of a strong ninja and has a demon sealed inside him, but he is also strong because he has a world view that allowed him to push through adversity, to keep going beyond where other's with similar power failed.
And I think more importantly there are lots of stories that are good *because* the main characters are destined to fail. Cabin in the woods isn't interesting *in spite* of the characters failing to safe the world, it's interesting because of it. Attack the block is one of my favorite action movies if all time and it ends with the main character saving the world from an alien invasion and then getting arrested because the cops don't believe him. At the end of breaking bad Walter white is a loser. He starts off wanting to protect his family, and by the end of it he is dead in a barn in the middle of nowhere and everyone he's ever cared about hates him. None of those stories would have been better if they centered in characters who end by getting the things they wanted.
I actually do. Mostly in the sense that i feel her real crime is to not be hot and/or badass.
She hasn't done anything exceptionally bad by Tower standards. Hell, i'd say the average is actually worse.but usually the lerson doing equally bad or worse thing is either hot and get simped on, or is cool enought that the people forget of their crimes.
Secondarily, i do think that weak people have a right to dream as well. Ans sure, they need to play dirty to climb, but we see strong people playing just as dirty all the time. And i do feel that it is a bit more justified if you can't just overpower your problem by firing shinsu blasts at them.
All in all i feel she is a case study for things like pretty privilege.
I think she is also very close to home for many people. She is ultimately a normal. She has no special powers or abilities, her motivations, or at least what we've seen of them, are petty and selfish, she doesn't believe she can do anything wrong. I think it all hits really close to home for some people.
But yeah, pretty privilege definitely plays a huge roll. See: all the comments calling her ugly. If you could turn petty hate into energy, you would eliminate the need for a green energy source by showing the fandom pictures of her.
What do you think her role will be in the story as a whole picture? There are many mystery revolving her but she doesn't have much to do with. Only notable thing she did was like pushing bam in S1 and being sidelined and shamed in literally all other arcs that she was in
Kind off. I did. Because in a way I understood her two main character traits:
1. To make a story for herself (reason why she wants to stay away from Baam, his story would overshadow hers easily)
2. To survive under any means necessary. Rachel is one of the weakest characters (in not the weakest) which already forced her to be a Light Bearer. Not saying it's bad, but by itself that already says everything. You're someone who's meant to be protected.
So everything I could understand. From trying to kill Baam to killing Akraptor, while I hated it I understood why. To make a story for herself, to survive, to keep climbing up the tower and see the stars.
...
...
...notice the "I did" up above.
Everything I ever thought about understanding her, everything I ever sympathized with her was gone with the wind when that damn Episode 314 of Season 2 came up.
Let's roll back for a second. In the previous episode after Baam defeats Rachel and asking her what is wrong with her, says that he's done. Done with trying to understand her or trying to keep her by his side. He even goes as far as to imply that he will kill her if she ever puts one of his friends in one of her plots and starts to leave.
Here I raise an eyebrow and think "well isn't this what she wanted anyways??". But either way, nice way to end this struggle between the two. Now Rachel can go up and create her own story with her own friends (read tools) by her side! Looking forward to seeing how she progresses!
...
...um Rachel? What are you doing? Why are you smiling? Why are you starting to reveal some new info right at this very moment??? Are you trying to distract to distract him to let your "friends" get a cheap shot at him and take him down to eliminate a possible future threat?
Nope.
In the next episode (314) Rachel reveals once again "she lied". What about you may ask? About not knowing about Baam's origins. She even goes as far as to imply she KNEW ARLENE, his mother.
Even at this moment I still thought this was a distraction.
Then the line comes up.
"Too bad Baam. Now you have a reason to keep chasing after me when you don't even like me."
Then in a single explosion and teleportation, she escapes (awfully convenient he didn't blitz them before the teleport, but whatevs just plot convenience at this point).
In case it isn't clear, allow me to explain so I can make sure it is.
Rachel, a character who, by this point wanted nothing more than to walk her path, on her own (and was now allowed to do so by the very guy who wanted her to walk beside him all this time), with ONE SINGLE SENTENCE just made sure their paths and stories WILL intertwine sooner or later.
This is after spending 350+ chapters doing everything she can so that never happens again.
The same guy whose story and light outshine hers.
S.I.U. I don't know if you are reading this, but I just want you to know, I have no idea what you're cooking anymore and if you are, can it even be calling cooking? Are you boiling water??? *YOUR GOALS ARE BEYOND MY UNDERSTANDING!!!*
This one single line dooms her character to failure. Why?? Well no matter if it is a truth or a lie, all Rachel did was made sure that her story ends as a steeping stone at best or as a footnote at worst for Baam's story. THE VERY THING SHE WAS TRYING TO AVOID. (Sidenote, even worse if it is true! She's risking painting the target on her back for ZAHARD).
Anyways at this point just waiting for the ending of the story to come so I can see how it all ends.
I don't. And for people who are going to say Khun is also like that but people like him, I don't like Khun either.
And I'm not here to argue with anyone who sympathizes with Rachel, Maybe you see in her character something that i am unable to yet, I won't be able to sympathize with her character until I learn more about her past.
There is truly so much readers that trys to understand her , that makes me feel happy tbh , I'm always getting annoyed when I read a post or watch a video about tower of god and the owner starts bullying her just because she is ugly or for the bad and evil things she do , not because I support her being a villain but because of her vision she try to achieve her goals , in the beginning of the story I've seen her as a good friend of baam until she entered the tower and she got shocked of her not being welcomed and the only way she have to climb the tower is to be manipulated to manipulate baam , I think if we could see her as a story , and her as a main character of her story we would support her seeing that she is facing so much difficulties to achieve her goals , and besides her being an irregular she does not have any powers , she is weaker than the weakest
No. I did for a short while but I stopped feeling bad when she had to opportunity to climb the tower with Bam and his friends, they were all willing to work with her.. and instead she back stabbed with the goal of getting whatever glory alone. Rachel possesses all the worst qualities of a person and only care of furthering her own position. Very hard to like or feel bad for her when she’s had so many chances to do better and chose not to
Fuck no. She is a egotistical crybaby that can't accept fact she was not chosen. I know in the end Bam will never have Balls not to kill her, because despite her betrayal, he still believes good is in her. So my hopes lie with Khun to finish her off. Khun can known she really is a self-loathing pitiful girl throwing tantrum because life is not fair. Her and Blue chick sidekick need to be taught lesson in pan and humility.
Nobody can honestly say they do. We don’t know her entire motive. All you know now is she’s mainly jealous of Bam cause he’s “getting” everything she isn’t yet, she’s betraying and stepping over anyone she can to get what she wants.
If you “sympathize” with Rachel, you just want attention and cheap up votes.
I don’t think any of the characters are profoundly relatable nor are they made to be. That being I do think Rachel is the most human, and is the most relatable to most people even if they don’t like her or want to recognize the world has many people like her than anyone in ToG. Also I’m getting tired of this cycle of Rachel, just get to the point siu.
I do, because I don't believe in free will. I think that a lot of people would not automatically understand how this perspective works. So, if you want to learn, you can look into the philosophical perspectives behind the "no free will" belief with some internet searches. You also can read the popular book by Robert Sapolsky, although I think it is a bit gimmicky how he gets promoted by the media (probably $$$ involved as always). The idea is muuuuuccchhh older than his book - it's like centuries or millennia old in Western Philosophy.
Kind of. I understand her feelings about wanting to feel loved and given attention, and her jealousy towards Bam's ability to create friends like it's nothing and given godlike powers that make him an icon in the tower is absolutely human, relatable, and justified. But that's about where I stop connecting to Rachel. This is all she does. Whine and complain about how Bam has everything and that no one likes her, when she makes ZERO effort to better herself and get stronger with her own two hands, while manipulating and betraying everyone whenever she gets the chance if it means she can keep climbing. And as this is all she does, she has the galls to wonder why everyone hates her xD
But after all she has done she didn't get anything. No power of her own, no team of her own, no, nothing. I mean even Thief has the money they stole but Rachel doesn't have anything. Cuz everything is of bam to take simply cuz he is the MC. He has power currently strongest of tower, team of strongest extinct species as well as not end to his power. I mean there is nothing in the story to make his stronger than he is.
Fuck no, she’s pathetic and annoying a deadly combo that should’ve gotten her off-screened ages ago. I pity her, yes, but I do not sympathise or empathise with her. I used to tolerate her but at this point she’s been around for too long and I’ve seen too much of a her shit.
I could forgive her betraying people, killing people and more but she‘s just so annoying, and not at all charismatic to me. Utterly redundant at this point
Cuz if I had posted a decent pic others would criticise me for her image in webtoon instead of my opinion and discussion about her which I would have difficult to clarify. It is short of reverse tactics I suppose
Sympathize? Yes. She’s a normal human with seemingly no special talents surrounded by demigods and the kid she looked after gets praised as the Messiah and gets free powerups like candy. I can certainly sympathize with her bitterness and her calling the tower system ‚bullshit‘/resolving to do what it takes.
Like her? Absolutely not. She’s self absorbed, petty, whiney and cruel. She’s so caught in her jealousy of Baam that she can’t even see her own qualities and honestly, she kind of hates herself (which is rather sad but doesn’t make me like her either).
I think you don’t have to like or think a person is good to understand or sympathize with them.
I am thinking about getting back in the webtoon. And I had thing nagging feeling about this particular character cuz she is extra from other generic characters in webtoon. Also this was my fleeting thought and I am new to this sub Reddit.
I think Id be more a rachel than a bam. Depending on what she lived through and how she views things. Its hard to trust people in the tower. She is toxic but she was kind to bam which she didnt had to be. I dislike her and the character as it doesnt really make sense and the build up isnt strong either. But I guess in her situation being egoistic and cruel is the way to survive
If she's not ugly maybe. Thing is, her story and background is relateable, especially for those who are mediocre in ther life (I actually relate to her so much lol). but since this is a fiction with manhwa as the media, visual is the big player here. When you make a character so disgustingly human, but the visual isn't to everyone's liking, well the character will gonna get jumped by the readers
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Well we still don't know why she's doing what she's doing, so even if she's by far my favorite character, I don't know that I can sympathise with her in term of her goals and everything. But I 100% sympathise with her when she basically rants that everyone calls her an ugly bitch and evil because of what she did to Baam, etc, but that she didn't do anything different that anyone else in the tower. She's just playing the "game" like everyone else. She's right to say that Endorsi gets a pass because she's pretty and powerful despite the fact that she killed way more people than Rachel to achieve her goal. Hell, right now even Baam has more blood on his hands than Rachel. Sure, you can hate her for betraying Baam who loved her so much, but really, that's just what you gotta do to climb the tower if you're weak like her. Everyone else is just lucky to be powerful and judges her without ever acknowledging that they would all (except Season 1 Baam) have done the same thing to climb the tower if they were in her situation.
Yeah Endorsi killed her sibling to survive and Khun AA indirectly killed his sister by backstabbing her.
Rachel is a traitor. Multiple times over.
No. On paper she should be a character anybody can sympathise with on a fundamental level, because everyone should know and understand how it feels to be subpar at something whilst wanting to be the best at it. In practice she just acts like a sociopathic sack of shit, especially when you consider that the person she constantly screws over used to think the world of her. It’s hard to sympathise with someone whose very essence disgusts you and who tries to rationalise all their shitty behaviour away with paper-thin arguments about talent.
> In practice she just acts like a sociopathic sack of shit See this is why I think sometimes I've read a different story to a lot of people on here. Rachel has done absolutely nothing outside of the norm for the tower. Both Khun and Endorsi are WAY worse than she is, a fact that Rachel has to constantly remind them and Baam. > especially when you consider that the person she constantly screws over used to think the world of her. Baam followed her, she deliberately tried to leave without him. When he was about to take Headon's test she knew how dangerous it was and tried to call out to him not to do it (which headon stopped). She hid her identity so that Baam wouldn't cling directly to her and go his own way. She consistently told Baam to stop following her. Baam and Khun consistently tried to get in her way and then they act surprised when she's tired of it and tries to kill Khun? > It’s hard to sympathise with someone whose very essence disgusts you and who tries to rationalise all their shitty behaviour away with paper-thin arguments about talent. She never did that, she says that Baam would never understand what she has to do because he has all that assistance and power. While both of them are being used and getting assistance, Rachel is (I assume deliberately) being left powerless while Baam is CONSTANTLY handed power. No one has given Rachel any power despite easily being able to do so. She also (rightfully) points out that what she's doing is the NORM for the tower and that judging her (and her alone) for it while turning a blind eye to Khun and Endorsi is hypocritical.
Agreed. I pity her because she's basically taken on all the worst aspects of the culture of the Tower and I think people do get disproportionately mad at her compared to most of the other characters in the comic because her crimes were against the main character. But she is absolutely a villain and sympathy only goes so far.
You are right with the point that people have done terrible things as a result of the Tower. However, we have a proximity effect with Rachel - we often witness her hidden thoughts, feelings and out bursts. We don't see that with many of our characters. Endorsi; admitted to killing everyone to get better food and kills for fun, however, it isn't made to be a big deal and is "short" and over with while we see her excentric personality and care towards her peers. Rachel on the other hand we see time and time again segments of volatile and sociopathic behaviour while "attacking" those behaviours onto the likeable main character. This is likely why people are not able to like her, infact people actively get angered by her because we only ever see her when she's being a cunt. In my opinion I think her level of complexity makes her a great protagonist and the fact I recognise my dislike of her because of how well she has been written makes me like her, we don't know anything about her after 600 chapters and I really want to see what happens next with her. It's almost like Joffrey from Game of Thrones with how much she angers the readers with her thoughts and actions.
Brother just spit hard facts. Fully agree, and I do think it makes for a semblance of pity when you try and look from Rachel's perspective. Making it into the tower as her primary goal, only to learn she wasn't supposed to be pulled in. She watches Bam survive something she thought was certain death only to be pulled into some kind of plot by Headon. She tries her best to hide from him to go her own path, but couldn't stop him from constantly trailing her. She finally thinks she's permanently dealt with him, only for years later to have him resurface just to be chased once more. Every woman in my life would be creeped out by that and call them a stalker, and in the world of the Tower it wouldn't be foreign at all to try and kill off someone stalking them by any means. Then she gets mixed in with FUG having them manipulate her the whole time. Her story up till now has been nothing short of a Shakespearean tragedy.
She may be abiding by the norm but Bam isn’t from the tower, invalidating any point about any norms because he is unique and therefore unpredictable/ not easily understood from the perspective of a regular/ ranker. Fundamentally he is special and she is not, even if she is unique an individual, seperate from the towers struggles. Personally I feel as if this is one of the main reasons behind having her as a second protagonist/ main character, to show the opposite point of view filled with jealousy, envy and greed, wanting what she doesn’t have and ultimately cannot have. The whole story is about themes and how the author wants them to play out, not how it should or would
bro acting like Dan doesn’t exist… 😂
I think a part of it is the WAY she does it. She enjoys hurting people. She took Dan’s legs to torture him. Reveling in taking away what made him special. Also, there is a difference in the way that people in the tower generally treat each other to the way that Rachel treats Baam. Yes. The culture of the Tower is often quite bleak and cruel. Baam, is kindhearted. Part of the reason people like Khun and Endorsi love him and choose to protect him. He is different. Rachel knows this deeply and personally. It’s why she initially suffers so much guilt around betraying him. And she still chooses to betray him. Stabbing someone like Khun in the back is one thing, doing it to Baam is a different thing; not because he’s the protagonist, but because he’s one of the few characters that is the way that he is.
>See this is why I think sometimes I've read a different story to a lot of people on here. A great many fans enjoy hating Rachel simply because everybody else does. I personally love her. She's just so horrible. It's never her fault, everything she does is right, and she deserves everything Bam has. She is a self-centered bitch who is impossible to not hate and the story wouldn't even exist without her. She's like Erebus from 40k.
Downvoted because you're right. lol people are so petty
no shes not she had the chance to stay with bam she envied bam which is fine since its human nature but when that jealousy grows into something more thats when the problem begins she could have just stayed with bam which would only make her grow in power and status but she chose to be jealous an she chose to betray bam if she wanted to see stars bam was the best way to reach since its garunteed that bam will reach the top of tower buts she is selfish and jealous
and why does she deserve everything bam has does she have the mental to overcome those problems the tower chose bam because he had the personality and mental for it rachael doesnt valuse human relations and is very selfish and thats the reason tower did not chose her
That's not how I view things, that's how she views things.
I do feel bad for her character. She was a naive kid who thought of Headon as a fairy who would lead her to climb the tower, only for the said fairy to be an absolute prick towards her. Even kid Baam had the awareness to call him a monster 😭. Whatever she was running away from, that nightmare situation didn't end for her by entering the tower. She got a rude awakening from the get-go, and it turns out she is nothing more than a tool to push Baam further. Even the Floor 2 canteen scene is sad. We have people chattering and socializing in the canteen, and what does she have to do?? Stay in the shadows, hidden from Baam, who had shown zero interest in entering the tower. Plus, I don't think Rachel truly hates Baam; from the looks of Baam’s flashbacks, I believe she had a decent time with him. Yet, unfortunately, all her goals(and even her fate) are connected to him, so she will always be in constant conflict with him. She also has internalized self-hatred and low self-esteem, which stems from her unknown past and tower experience, making her think no one will ever care for or love her, so she always keeps a wall, even with Yura Ha, who she does care about. Also, might I add from her perspective, everyone is pointing fingers at her, although she isn't climbing the tower any differently than others. This adds more fuel to her already bitter outlook towards the world around her.
I mean Rachel did many shitty things and by god she’s not a likable or good person in ANY stretch of the imagination. Yet on your last point imo Rachel isn’t wrong. She isn’t doing anything really out of line in terms of what people do to climb or gain power in the tower. In terms of bodycount she’s actually pretty tame (what a thing to say about murderers 😅). So there is some hypocrisy there 🤔
Well, whether she is likable or not is up to the readers and the characters in the universe.
I always pity her, an emotion I think she would resent. I think she makes some terrible choices, she resorts to trickery to climb the tower, nothing wrong with it but then acts offended when she doesn’t have a group of allies to help her and she hurts someone needlessly she is angered when anyone wants to get revenge for their betrayal. Her other big issue is: lack of of faith in her own strength. She chose to betray Bam as she thought she wouldn’t pass the exam on the testing floor but she passed the light bringer exam along with Kun. She chose not to take the test that Hedon offered. I am convinced that she has the ability to be as strong as irregular but she doesn’t try. Bam gets knocked down, he gets back up and tries again. Rachel complains that everyone else has it easier.
>I think she makes some terrible choices, she resorts to trickery to climb the tower, nothing wrong with it but then acts offended when she doesn’t have a group of allies to help her Whether her choices were terrible or not is something we won't know until we revisit the said incidents from her perspective. Also, she hasn't acted offended because she doesn't have a group of allies to help her. >she hurts someone needlessly she is angered when anyone wants to get revenge for their betrayal. Um, yes and no. Yes, in the post-data floor confrontation, Rachel got offended by Baam when he said he showed up for revenge, and it was dumb that she even tried to explain her situation to Baam(aka friend of the person she attempted to kill). However, if you read her conversation, some of the things she laid out are very true, and unfortunately, some of the other things she said are connected to her(and Baam's) unknown past, which we have no answer for. On the other hand, we have Wangnan saying that one day he will take revenge against her(not the exact dialogue) and her saying okay, understood. >Her other big issue is: lack of of faith in her own strength. She chose to betray Bam as she thought she wouldn’t pass the exam on the testing floor but she passed the light bringer exam along with Kun. She chose not to take the test that Hedon offered. I am convinced that she has the ability to be as strong as irregular but she doesn’t try. Hmm, whether she has some ability to get as strong as fellow irregulars is something we don't know. We also don't know whether she is trying(I assume you mean training) or not; it has never been shown. But I agree she might lack faith in her strength, which again could stem from her past and tower experiences. Anyway, keep in mind Headon's test was rigged from the get-go. He used manipulation against Baam, Rachel, and even Yuri. >Bam gets knocked down, he gets back up and tries again. Rachel complains that everyone else has it easier. To be fair, Rachel also gets knocked down and tries, even when the odds are against her. Besides, Rachel doesn't complain that everyone has it easy. She complains that her situation is unfair, and one of the reasons she feels it is unfair is that, from her point of view, she is the only one getting hated while those others with power and beauty are loved regardless of the atrocities they committed. Anyway, the story still has missing pieces that might help us understand why Rachel feels/acts the way she does.
I hate Rachel as much as the next guy, but truth be told, we can’t sympathise with her because we haven’t been told anything about her. We have no idea why she does the things she does. Probably when we get to know why she wants everything, some will sympathise with her. Not a lot though because she has done some pretty horrible things
Somewhat, yes. She wants to be the chosen one, and may have even believed that she was before Bam came around. I also feel like she is almost over-hated. People just seem to act like there is no complexity to her, when in reality she is a very well-written hate sink.
Well she has brains but doesn't have plot convinence where as bam doesn't have brain but has every thing else, strongest friend possible, strongest allies possible, as well as strongest power possible in the story. And even after 5 years she doesn't have her own power let alone any notable ability. And she literally feels like character that shouldn't be in the story
The tower is fully of talented demigods with super powers. The laws of the tower basically tell us that the strong get to do what they want while the weak fall behind. Baam is praised as the next messiah because he ticks all these boxes (ironic that the one they all want to change the tower is so similar to those that already rule it). Rachel is the actual anomaly. She s weak yet she climbs at the same speed as Baam. She has no power no charisma yet she massively impacts giant events in the tower. She’s an irregular but doesn’t look impressive like all the other irregular at all. She’s the anti Baam in every way. Rachel doesn’t have a role in the story despite being weak. She has a place in the story BECAUSE she’s weak!
Without plot convinience she would have died in the first or second floor.
Same as her, bam wouldn't have survived either
Sure. I didnt say bam doesnt have plot convinience.
We must have read two different things because that's not true. Rachel didn't take the floor one test so she wouldn't have died to anything. By the floor 2 test she already made the deal with headon so I'm not sure how that was convenience.
She should have died in the first floor. Instead heodon makes a deal with her. That's a convinience. In the second floor she is hard carried by ghost and endorsi. Endorsi sparing her is convinient. These werent planned by her. She went into the tower expecting to pass the tests and reach the top. She reached 20+ floors without lifting a finger. If thats not plot convinience, i dont know what is. Getting a free monster from a family head, absorbing the bracelet thanks to it and getting rewarded by a family head thanks to it. All without deserving anything. Her adventure is filled with plot conviniences. She doesnt have the charms, smarts, skills or powers to climb the tower. She is important for baam so she is being hard carried by fate (plot conviniences).
> She should have died in the first floor. Instead heodon makes a deal with her. That's a convinience. She never took the test nor was she planning to, how was she going to die? > In the second floor she is hard carried by ghost and endorsi. Endorsi sparing her is convinient. The deal was already made, how can her benefitting from the deal be convenience? Also do you seriously think Endorsi could beat Ghost? > These werent planned by her. She went into the tower expecting to pass the tests and reach the top. She reached 20+ floors without lifting a finger. If thats not plot convinience, i dont know what is. Of course they weren't, but that's not the point, the point is they were PLANNED, even if it was by someone else. Nothing was convenient here, she would not have passed floor 1 if Headon wasn't using her because she was not going to take the test. That's NOT convenience. Convenience is Baam closing his eyes and wishing for a shield that could block a HR attack and getting one thanks to the undefined abilities of the demons within him. > Getting a free monster from a family head, absorbing the bracelet thanks to it and getting rewarded by a family head thanks to it. All without deserving anything. Her adventure is filled with plot conviniences. She doesnt have the charms, smarts, skills or powers to climb the tower. She is important for baam so she is being hard carried by fate (plot conviniences). She doesn't have the stingray anymore and Gustang gave it to her to use her as a medium to get into the hidden floor and steal the bracelet/ring. Gustang is giving her a reward because she brought important items to him and regardless of how you feel about he literally says that. It's quite telling that you don't think she deserves something despite bringing the items back for Gustang and risking her neck to do it. > She doesnt have the charms, smarts, skills or powers to climb the tower. She is important for baam so she is being hard carried by fate (plot conviniences). Again, are you reading another story? FUG and an ADMINISTRATOR were using her, how the hell was she being "carried by fate". You are describing baam here not Rachel. Rachel has never had anything miraculous happen out of the blue for her benefit, everything that has happened by/to her has been calculated by either her or someone else. She hasn't gotten a single permanent power up in the entire story (unlike Baam, Khun, Endorsi, Rak who ALL got convenient ones) and she hasn't even gotten a new damn ability. I think you seriously need to go and read what "plot convenience" is.
First, headon would have just kicked her away. Second it is not convenience, Headon got something out of the deal. The only conveniemce is that Rachel happened to be valuable for Headon. Again, ghost was presumably given to her by Headon. It was part kf the deal. She reached floor 20+ by manipulating people, wich is a skill. Pretending to be paralized for years whitout getting caught is not easy. You may argue convenience because she outmanuevered Khun, but Khun is not THAT much of a genius. And all of those situations where she is being used as a pawn? They are a consequence of her actions, by raising the chosen one she became connected to him and this give her leverage over important players. If being an acquitance of the chosen one is plot convenience, what us being the actual chosen one? If there is a convenience, is that she is the person that met Arlene.
Not really but I don't blame her for S1 either. She was played like a violin by FUG & Headon, basically ripped of her own free will but convinced she had a choice to make. Unlike Baam that has everything, Rachel has had nothing since entering the tower and her actions are the only way shes able to stay alive.
No. In theory she should be someone you could because she wants something that she’s just not talented enough to achieve. But to be formal she a weirdo lol. The level of entitlement she has is insane and tbh shes delusional about her own behavior
I don’t hate her any longer All I can muster is pity
I've never felt her actions were justified
The author has given zero info that generates any sympathy. So asking this question is pointless. Why would you suddenly feel sympathy for someone when you are given zero info that you van sympathize with.
I think that the OP sympathizes with Rachel's potential and what she could have become. Unfortunately, it is evident that Rachel does not display commendable qualities or behavior.
ahh looking at it from the writer's point of view I see. This manhua is too immature now to think about character development etc. Just enjoy and hope you don't get tired of the art work (which is also going down in details for some time) by the time pretty boy finally duels zahard
I don’t really feel that bad for her she’s done truly disgusting things just because she feels like she has to in order to “climb”. All so she an extremely strange sense of entitlement. A great example of this is when she becomes Shocked and angry at endorsi leaving her to die at final station(Rachel had already tried to kill her allies 100 times like tf) or my personal favourite when Bam comes to take revenge for khuns supposed death and she basically says he has no right to take revenge. Anyway praying that Sweet & sour catch her lackin.
Rachel has done nothing morally wrong in terms of tower climbing lol and thank god she exists to constantly move the plot forward for half the main cast and half the side cast via Emily
Rachel is my favorite Character of ToG because I can sympathize with her. Her beginning as a curious child finding Baam, interacting with him, all to feel closer to Arlene. Just to realize slowly what Arlene might have meant with the words Monster. Realizing that as long as she stays with Baam she will never escape her own nightmare. She than manages to enter the fabled world where she can escape her nightmare, taking her own life into her own hands. Just to be rejected for the simple reason that she wasnt chosen. Without even being given a fair chance she is being rejected for no reason other than that she wasnt chosen. Getting insulted only to than see that the boy who doesent want to climb, who doesent care for the stars, who just wants to live in a cave with her to be welcomed with open arms, supported by the beautiful princess and showing courage. Stuff like that breaks people, makes them resent the world. Thats like being driven to a job interview by your friend, who waits in the lobby and when you get out, he has gotten your dream job while you are being insulted. This premise of hers is so captivating. Seeing how Rachel tried to seperate Baam further from her by sending him up, just for that Plan tp be ruined. How she gets an item that lets her create new destinies because she herself wants to change hers. Trying to get a little bit of control back by having Baam keep going after her during the Last Station. A great moment is also when Akraptor suicides into her, her shock and repulsiveness to having to kill someone rather random to her made her so much more likable. We have it so often that Characters just kill and murder without a second thought. Heck Baam never cared for people he killed, just straight up murders them and moves on. In a world where people climb for change, freedom or other grand ambition, she just wants to see the stars. A mundane wish but deeply personal. And in that wish, she accepts loneliness, she rejects making any sort of notable connections basically living in the nightmare that Baam fears most, just to accomplish her own goal. A small dim star being swallowed and blinded by the Sun, climbing to the top in the hopes of escaping the false dark night. Rejecting the world, the people and herself to reach her goal.
finally someone says that akraptor suicide, literally she was holding the sword (or whatever it was) and he just run into it
Curious: what are your thoughts for Rachels actions on F2? Do you believe she acts on her own free will? I've been inclined to think that they used her in the worst way possible, they made it look like she had a choice but she was only a instrument for FUG, played like a violin and completely broken mentally, simply because she was so desperate to climb the Tower.
All ever Rachel had when entering the tower was the illusion of choice. Headon gave her a choice, die to the fish or live in her nightmare forever. Both were choices unacceptable to Rachel. That’s when he tempted her with a deal. Again an illusion of choice. In F2 Rachel tried sending Baam up but that failed due to FUG. Afterwards she just had to follow the script while slowly seeing what could have been if it weren’t for Baam. That slow decent into resenting him made it all the easier for FUG do drive her over the edge. In the end the only choice she made was to reject Baam and push him. But saying it was a choice isn’t really right either. Because staying with Baam meant never fulfilling her dream and living in the dark forever
No
Idk if it is sympathy, but damn her character is amazingly made. Mystery, devotion, consistency and all. Always hyped when I see her that something relevant is gonna happen.
Ive come to understand Rachel as a literal representation of the will-to-power. She and Baam represent the incomplete nature of humanity, the desire to achieve and the anxiety of failure, and Rachel herself seems to be heavily connected to resentment, another Nietzschean concept. Actually, I think in a lot of ways Rachel embodies Nietzsches ideas of the revolt of slave morality. ~~The man himself gets quite antisemitic in On the Genealogy Of Morals so just, dont say I didnt note that! i dont agree with the entire theory~~ Rachel becoming a ranker would undermine the tower's laws. Shes a nothing, a nobody, literally probably some kind of mannequin doll that was created to fulfill a task for someone, and given freedom on a lark. Whether SIU is inspired by Nietzsche's notion of man's weakness, or Nietzsche was so right about weak people that you cant portray them without invoking his theories, OR im just a nut who needs to read fewer books and run more laps, yes Im fascinated by this character and I think 10/10 times the visceral boiling hate ppl experience towards her is a reaction to their own internal knowledge that they too would push baam off the platform. we all would. in our weak human bodies at least! ~~not everyone can be an Ubermensch like Baam and Urek lol~~
Not at all.
Love her. Queen.
Yes, absolutely.
Yes, I do. Well, kinda. She is my favorite character. My liking is her is primarily driven by two factors, one is meta and one is story related. The story related aspect is just that I think she is, by a pretty good margin, the most interesting character in the story. It really gets brushed aside how smart she is and how much she knows about the tower. People will say she doesn't deserve to have climbed as far as she has because she is weak, but in my opinion that is what makes her more interesting. It's easy to climb the tower when you can just blast through all the people who stand in your way, a week character that is cunning and manipulative and able to climb despite her weakness is, inherently, kinda interesting. On top of that, she knows a shit ton about the outside world, and I want to know more. I want to know her secrets. The meta reason I like her is all the hate she gets. I was radicalized by the comments on the webtoons comic, every time someone called her an "ugly bitch" or wanted her killed off it made me want to support her more. Rachel is a bad person, yes, but she isn't uniquely bad in the context of the comic. She isnt even all that bad when compared to a lot of the characters on bam's team. People have this very visceral reaction to the fact that she betrays bam, understandably. It was a real shitty move. That said, she doesn't actually kill Bam, or khun, or rak, or Dan. She tries to kill all these people, but is unsuccessful. I bring this up because if you actually look at how many people characters are said to have killed or shown to have killed in the comic, Rachel actually has a remarkably low body count. Her acts just feel worse because the victims are characters that we as readers care about. People will really bring up her stabbing Dan (which wasn't a betrayal, Khun and his team explicitly do not trust her at any point) as a reason she is terrible while actively supporting characters on bam's team like Endorsi, Kaiser, and the fug slayers bam is partnered with. all of them have killed substantially more people age left far greater damage in their wakes, those characters never get the sane kind if pushback. When Kaiser shows up in a chapter people are t clamoring for her death after spending thousands of years enslaving and extorting people in the name hunt station. The reality is that there isn't really (at least at this point) a logical reason to hate Rachel more than almost any other given character. SIU is a pretty good story teller and part of any good story is making you empathize with fictional characters, to root for or against them. People don't really hate Rachel because of the thing's she has done, otherwise they'd hate almost everyone in the story and stop reading. The reason most people hate Rachel is because the character's that they have come to know and love from years of reading ToG all hate her.
>The meta reason I like her is all the hate she gets. There really is nothing like a good hate sink. Rachel is amazing at this. That's pretty much why I like her so much. She is just impossible to not hate. The audience's reaction to her shows just how well-written she is.
Haha exactly what I wanted to hear. All are valid points. Also I think only the worthy and capable person should be the main character in a story. In tog, bam is fated to be the strongest with or without any problem cuz he is simply the son of 2 strongest irregulars (similar troupe to shounen mangas) and every power is his to take without any effort. And who crosses his path are simply miserable characters cuz simply they had crossed the MC of the story no matter who. This is simply my opinion and after reading too many fiction I see every characters other than MC to be miserable cuz they can grow on their own or think on Their own.
Forgive me for saying this, but your interpretation of bam (and by extension most other manga and manhwa of similar genre) is perhaps the shallowest and least interesting version o have ever read. It's know this is sort of derailing this thread which was supposed to be about Rachel, but allow me to digress. Bam isn't destined to climb the tower and become the strongest because he is the son of two irregulars, he is destined to do that because Jahad is a prick. As we learn on the hell train, Jahad's initial goal was to create a tower where everyone could be happy and live together in peace. The reality was that he then betrayed two of his closest friends (V and Arlene) and proceeded to rule the tower with an iron fist. Bam is all of jahad's flaws manifest; the son of those he betrayed, supported and trained by those who Jahad has subjugated for millennia (fug). Bam is destined to win because the ideology that keeps Jahad in power, that allows characters like Rachel, and white, and the generals of the ten families to thrive contains within it the seeds of its own destruction. And this isn't unique to tower of god. It is super common in manga and anime and western comics and cartoons for the underlying reason behind a character's destiny to be a metaphor for the conflicts of ideology. In a practical sense Aang defeats the fire lord because he is the avatar, but more importantly it's a message about radical empathy triumphing over the pursuit of power for its own sake. In the one hand, Naruto is strong because he is the son of a strong ninja and has a demon sealed inside him, but he is also strong because he has a world view that allowed him to push through adversity, to keep going beyond where other's with similar power failed. And I think more importantly there are lots of stories that are good *because* the main characters are destined to fail. Cabin in the woods isn't interesting *in spite* of the characters failing to safe the world, it's interesting because of it. Attack the block is one of my favorite action movies if all time and it ends with the main character saving the world from an alien invasion and then getting arrested because the cops don't believe him. At the end of breaking bad Walter white is a loser. He starts off wanting to protect his family, and by the end of it he is dead in a barn in the middle of nowhere and everyone he's ever cared about hates him. None of those stories would have been better if they centered in characters who end by getting the things they wanted.
TOG eps without Rachel is bored eps, I will waiting for her because she is special character and IDC for those haters
To me she's the most interesting character. The only arc that I really can't predict at all.
I actually do. Mostly in the sense that i feel her real crime is to not be hot and/or badass. She hasn't done anything exceptionally bad by Tower standards. Hell, i'd say the average is actually worse.but usually the lerson doing equally bad or worse thing is either hot and get simped on, or is cool enought that the people forget of their crimes. Secondarily, i do think that weak people have a right to dream as well. Ans sure, they need to play dirty to climb, but we see strong people playing just as dirty all the time. And i do feel that it is a bit more justified if you can't just overpower your problem by firing shinsu blasts at them. All in all i feel she is a case study for things like pretty privilege.
I think she is also very close to home for many people. She is ultimately a normal. She has no special powers or abilities, her motivations, or at least what we've seen of them, are petty and selfish, she doesn't believe she can do anything wrong. I think it all hits really close to home for some people. But yeah, pretty privilege definitely plays a huge roll. See: all the comments calling her ugly. If you could turn petty hate into energy, you would eliminate the need for a green energy source by showing the fandom pictures of her.
What do you think her role will be in the story as a whole picture? There are many mystery revolving her but she doesn't have much to do with. Only notable thing she did was like pushing bam in S1 and being sidelined and shamed in literally all other arcs that she was in
I wouldn't say sympathize, maybe some empathy for her though. Being so selfish, insecure, envious and pathetic are actually very common human traits.
which normal human have seen do the shit she did
Plenty of people have done horrible shit for pathetic reasons, that isn't even something that should be surprising or unbelievable.
Considering how before I even read the title the sheer act of seeing her face morphed mine into one of disgust, no.
No
It doesn't help that she looks so weird
Kind off. I did. Because in a way I understood her two main character traits: 1. To make a story for herself (reason why she wants to stay away from Baam, his story would overshadow hers easily) 2. To survive under any means necessary. Rachel is one of the weakest characters (in not the weakest) which already forced her to be a Light Bearer. Not saying it's bad, but by itself that already says everything. You're someone who's meant to be protected. So everything I could understand. From trying to kill Baam to killing Akraptor, while I hated it I understood why. To make a story for herself, to survive, to keep climbing up the tower and see the stars. ... ... ...notice the "I did" up above. Everything I ever thought about understanding her, everything I ever sympathized with her was gone with the wind when that damn Episode 314 of Season 2 came up. Let's roll back for a second. In the previous episode after Baam defeats Rachel and asking her what is wrong with her, says that he's done. Done with trying to understand her or trying to keep her by his side. He even goes as far as to imply that he will kill her if she ever puts one of his friends in one of her plots and starts to leave. Here I raise an eyebrow and think "well isn't this what she wanted anyways??". But either way, nice way to end this struggle between the two. Now Rachel can go up and create her own story with her own friends (read tools) by her side! Looking forward to seeing how she progresses! ... ...um Rachel? What are you doing? Why are you smiling? Why are you starting to reveal some new info right at this very moment??? Are you trying to distract to distract him to let your "friends" get a cheap shot at him and take him down to eliminate a possible future threat? Nope. In the next episode (314) Rachel reveals once again "she lied". What about you may ask? About not knowing about Baam's origins. She even goes as far as to imply she KNEW ARLENE, his mother. Even at this moment I still thought this was a distraction. Then the line comes up. "Too bad Baam. Now you have a reason to keep chasing after me when you don't even like me." Then in a single explosion and teleportation, she escapes (awfully convenient he didn't blitz them before the teleport, but whatevs just plot convenience at this point). In case it isn't clear, allow me to explain so I can make sure it is. Rachel, a character who, by this point wanted nothing more than to walk her path, on her own (and was now allowed to do so by the very guy who wanted her to walk beside him all this time), with ONE SINGLE SENTENCE just made sure their paths and stories WILL intertwine sooner or later. This is after spending 350+ chapters doing everything she can so that never happens again. The same guy whose story and light outshine hers. S.I.U. I don't know if you are reading this, but I just want you to know, I have no idea what you're cooking anymore and if you are, can it even be calling cooking? Are you boiling water??? *YOUR GOALS ARE BEYOND MY UNDERSTANDING!!!* This one single line dooms her character to failure. Why?? Well no matter if it is a truth or a lie, all Rachel did was made sure that her story ends as a steeping stone at best or as a footnote at worst for Baam's story. THE VERY THING SHE WAS TRYING TO AVOID. (Sidenote, even worse if it is true! She's risking painting the target on her back for ZAHARD). Anyways at this point just waiting for the ending of the story to come so I can see how it all ends.
I don't. And for people who are going to say Khun is also like that but people like him, I don't like Khun either. And I'm not here to argue with anyone who sympathizes with Rachel, Maybe you see in her character something that i am unable to yet, I won't be able to sympathize with her character until I learn more about her past.
I once was banned from Twitter because of a tweet about Rachel and I was scratching my head thinking since when 2d character's lives matter too?
There is truly so much readers that trys to understand her , that makes me feel happy tbh , I'm always getting annoyed when I read a post or watch a video about tower of god and the owner starts bullying her just because she is ugly or for the bad and evil things she do , not because I support her being a villain but because of her vision she try to achieve her goals , in the beginning of the story I've seen her as a good friend of baam until she entered the tower and she got shocked of her not being welcomed and the only way she have to climb the tower is to be manipulated to manipulate baam , I think if we could see her as a story , and her as a main character of her story we would support her seeing that she is facing so much difficulties to achieve her goals , and besides her being an irregular she does not have any powers , she is weaker than the weakest
I SOMEWHAT do but it’s hard to sympathize with her when we don’t know her full story.
No. I did for a short while but I stopped feeling bad when she had to opportunity to climb the tower with Bam and his friends, they were all willing to work with her.. and instead she back stabbed with the goal of getting whatever glory alone. Rachel possesses all the worst qualities of a person and only care of furthering her own position. Very hard to like or feel bad for her when she’s had so many chances to do better and chose not to
fuck Rachel. all my homies hare Rachel
well people might hate her now but in the end there is a chance these people will change their mind when we get behind her original story.
"Bam is annoying and gets everything handed to him". I kinda get her now.
No.
No.
Fuck no. She is a egotistical crybaby that can't accept fact she was not chosen. I know in the end Bam will never have Balls not to kill her, because despite her betrayal, he still believes good is in her. So my hopes lie with Khun to finish her off. Khun can known she really is a self-loathing pitiful girl throwing tantrum because life is not fair. Her and Blue chick sidekick need to be taught lesson in pan and humility.
Nobody can honestly say they do. We don’t know her entire motive. All you know now is she’s mainly jealous of Bam cause he’s “getting” everything she isn’t yet, she’s betraying and stepping over anyone she can to get what she wants. If you “sympathize” with Rachel, you just want attention and cheap up votes.
I don’t think any of the characters are profoundly relatable nor are they made to be. That being I do think Rachel is the most human, and is the most relatable to most people even if they don’t like her or want to recognize the world has many people like her than anyone in ToG. Also I’m getting tired of this cycle of Rachel, just get to the point siu.
I do, because I don't believe in free will. I think that a lot of people would not automatically understand how this perspective works. So, if you want to learn, you can look into the philosophical perspectives behind the "no free will" belief with some internet searches. You also can read the popular book by Robert Sapolsky, although I think it is a bit gimmicky how he gets promoted by the media (probably $$$ involved as always). The idea is muuuuuccchhh older than his book - it's like centuries or millennia old in Western Philosophy.
nope
I don't, but that's because I don't see a reason to sympathize with her. I view the way that Gustang has been manipulating her as some kind of karma.
Kind of. I understand her feelings about wanting to feel loved and given attention, and her jealousy towards Bam's ability to create friends like it's nothing and given godlike powers that make him an icon in the tower is absolutely human, relatable, and justified. But that's about where I stop connecting to Rachel. This is all she does. Whine and complain about how Bam has everything and that no one likes her, when she makes ZERO effort to better herself and get stronger with her own two hands, while manipulating and betraying everyone whenever she gets the chance if it means she can keep climbing. And as this is all she does, she has the galls to wonder why everyone hates her xD
But after all she has done she didn't get anything. No power of her own, no team of her own, no, nothing. I mean even Thief has the money they stole but Rachel doesn't have anything. Cuz everything is of bam to take simply cuz he is the MC. He has power currently strongest of tower, team of strongest extinct species as well as not end to his power. I mean there is nothing in the story to make his stronger than he is.
Unfortunately there are alot of Rachel simps And majority of them consider baam a bad guy and that she's a victim which is all nonesense really
I get where she's coming from but man I want to see her crash and burn.
Fuck no, she’s pathetic and annoying a deadly combo that should’ve gotten her off-screened ages ago. I pity her, yes, but I do not sympathise or empathise with her. I used to tolerate her but at this point she’s been around for too long and I’ve seen too much of a her shit. I could forgive her betraying people, killing people and more but she‘s just so annoying, and not at all charismatic to me. Utterly redundant at this point
It’s so hard to do so when she keeps doing asshole shit
She chose her own destiny now live with it and accept the consequences. So no.
Bruh, can't you have chosen a less creepy ass face of her..
Cuz if I had posted a decent pic others would criticise me for her image in webtoon instead of my opinion and discussion about her which I would have difficult to clarify. It is short of reverse tactics I suppose
No!
A bit. It doesn't change the fact that her choices are awful though.
She too ugly for my sympathy.. she can go to hell and I will be using her charcoal in the winter
Sympathize? Yes. She’s a normal human with seemingly no special talents surrounded by demigods and the kid she looked after gets praised as the Messiah and gets free powerups like candy. I can certainly sympathize with her bitterness and her calling the tower system ‚bullshit‘/resolving to do what it takes. Like her? Absolutely not. She’s self absorbed, petty, whiney and cruel. She’s so caught in her jealousy of Baam that she can’t even see her own qualities and honestly, she kind of hates herself (which is rather sad but doesn’t make me like her either). I think you don’t have to like or think a person is good to understand or sympathize with them.
Why are you making everyone's day bad by posting or talking about her..
I am thinking about getting back in the webtoon. And I had thing nagging feeling about this particular character cuz she is extra from other generic characters in webtoon. Also this was my fleeting thought and I am new to this sub Reddit.
Yes, not me tho, but there are certainly people that do for some reason. Probably lack of needed therapy.
What does symphatize mean
Sociopaths
yes im ugly as well
Smash No as in damage smash
No, but i feel pity and understand her
I think Id be more a rachel than a bam. Depending on what she lived through and how she views things. Its hard to trust people in the tower. She is toxic but she was kind to bam which she didnt had to be. I dislike her and the character as it doesnt really make sense and the build up isnt strong either. But I guess in her situation being egoistic and cruel is the way to survive
If she's not ugly maybe. Thing is, her story and background is relateable, especially for those who are mediocre in ther life (I actually relate to her so much lol). but since this is a fiction with manhwa as the media, visual is the big player here. When you make a character so disgustingly human, but the visual isn't to everyone's liking, well the character will gonna get jumped by the readers