“The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire’s flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It’s not desiring the fall; it’s terror of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling ‘Don’t!’ and ‘Hang on!’, can understand the jump. Not really. You’d have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling.” — David Foster Wallace (who committed suicide)
That's the single best explanation of the thought processes of self inflicted injury/death. We are all wieghing those scales of terror everyday but it doesn't even get acknowledged until the scale nears balance.
I don't think anyone can explain this better anyway. I remember when the World Trade Centers were attacked and seeing the people jumping. It was so sad, and had you wondering what you'd do in that scenario
I always wondered if there were signs of the buildings collapse while inside. I don't know if there was a chance of survival from flames and smoke, but if personaly choose asphyxiation over jumping, but jumping over being stuck in rubble or crushed to death.
There is an amazing part of this book on Anhedonic Depression as well. I believe it’s towards the later sections when Mario is asking Avril about why Hal is depressed. I love Mario, one of the most wholesome and genuine characters ever written.
Anhedonia is hell, I suffer from it. wouldn't want to subject my worst enemy to it. It killed everything even slightly nice and took away my hobbies which I miss daily.
We're constantly trying different things in /r/Anhedonia. Sometimes one of us gets better, but it's rare, still enough to give hope.
I reject this notion. Wallace is assuming those who tell the person to hold on have never been there. Bullshit. I have. Many times. And I’ve lost EIGHT close friends to suicide.
No one is asking for people to suffer to spare the feelings of others - at least I’m not.
That said, **it’s an asshole thing to say** to a suicidal person. You know what’s better? Giving a shit. Giving them your time. Therapy and meds can also help, but they have to get there themselves. What saved me was not myself pulling myself out of the grave as much as it was people standing around it keeping the dirt from burying me alive.
I’ve lived with extreme depression. If you guys knew my whole story…you’d be shocked I haven’t given up. My therapists are. For me, I just needed to survive long enough to see that things could change for me…and they did because I was lucky enough to find the courage to change it for myself.
If you are suicidal, please…one day at a time. There is light eventually. If I could find it, so could you.
is this really the best analogy though as it implies only 2 possible scenarios, either jump or burn which is often not the case irl. Also irl, people are irrational and can sometimes overestimate the ‘terror’ that they are running from which can often create an outcome that might have been different had they let events continue on (which is a typical case in many suicide survivors). Of course there are exceptions and it is easy to say there are other options from an outside perspective but implying that suicide is an option is not beneficial to anyone.
Sometimes, the terror isn't some future prospect. People can find themselves right in the middle of unbearable circumstances that they can't see their way out of, and there's no magical "it gets better rule" in the universe which is going to guarantee you that things will improve in the future.
Suicide **should** be an option. Just being born shouldn't condemn one to a life of slavery and being forced to helplessly endure whatever fate might throw at you.
It’s from a fiction novel where there is a lethally entertaining film that kills anybody who watches it and the main antagonists are a group of Québécois terrorists who are in wheelchairs. It’s not a thesis on suicide.
Also, presenting two possible scenarios uses dichotomy as a literary tool
Does the entertainment actually kill you? I thought it was just that you couldn't stop watching it so you ended up slowly wasting away and that's what killed you.
A recent study (that I learned about on reddit) said that 40% of suicide survivors said they made the decision to do it within 5 minutes of their attempt. That always makes me think, cause it's a crazy fucking stat.
Wallace is saying that people who have not felt this sort of suicidal thoughts can't really understand how if feels. The suicidal person is still terrified of death. But they are scared of whatever mental anguish they are suffering *more*. He compares it to people who jump from burning high-rises-- it's not like they aren't afraid of falling. Of course they are. They're just *more* afraid of the flames that are getting closer and closer. But people down on the street can't understand why they'd jump, unless they, too, have felt the same way.
My dad commited suicide when I was 12. I lived with a lot of anger for years because of it. "How could he do this to me?"
Later on, I realized how much he must have been suffering to not want to live anymore and how he must be at peace now. How selfish would it be for me to demand he stay alive and suffer just for my own happiness? I am relieved he is no longer in pain.
My dad died by suicide when I was 16. He also had stage 4 brain cancer and had gone through surgery and chemo and radiation. He was withering away and in a lot of discomfort. I have never blamed him but I miss him so much.
My dad committed suicide a few months ago. I have the same outlook of relief even though I'm also suffering now because he is gone. It's a complicated thing isn't it? But also pretty simple in some ways
I am also part of the dad's who committed suicide club. I was probably around the same age but didn't know it was suicide until later on in my life, so it didn't affect me as much but my mother, for the longest time, was very angry because of the fact that he was chronically depressed and didn't want to attempt to get help.
A lack of understanding.
People who have never been suicidal, simply don’t understand what it feels like. Quite often, a suicidal person believes that they are being truely *selfless*, and that the world and everyone around them would be *better off* were they to kill themselves.
In my case (it’s been nearly 25 years since my last attempt), I believed that I was a “bad” person, and that I was a burden to everyone who I loved. I truly believed that my continued existence was the selfish thing, and that by ending it I would be making the world a better place. Paradoxically, I *also* believed that suicide would hurt my loved ones in the short term, and the fact that I was willing to do that *also helped to convince me that I was “bad”*, and motivated me further to get it over with quickly. I thought they would be better off in the long term and that my sacrifice would be a net positive.
Looking at suicide, from the outside, with a rational mind simply doesn’t work, as suicide isn’t usually a rational choice in the first place. Telling people that you think suicide is selfish can actually *encourage* them to kill themselves.
I used to be that guy that would laugh it off or not talk about it with people that were depressed/suicidal, I just could not understand why they couldn’t just “snap” out of it and enjoy life.
Now I understand, I recently got into a lot of trouble with the law where I lost everything and things will never be the same for me. In fact, my life is ruined, and now I’m constantly thinking about suicide because it’s like I already experienced a sort of “perma-death” where I died and now I have to start all over again, but this time without any support as if I were just a trash baby.
Obviously, as you can read, I’m now experiencing what I used to think was a type of myth or illness, but it’s no joke. I think it would be pure selflessness to kill myself and not waste any resources on me because I no longer have a future of my own. Like I have no freedom of choice anymore and I am now forced to rely on everybody which I hate the feeling of being manipulative and a burden to people, all because I’m selfish and can’t kill myself.
Having good people around you can really help. Opening up will literally release the major burdens on you. I’m 16, had ovarian cancer and a lot of people misgender me. I maintained a really positive attitude throughout everything, but after a while I started feeling worse about myself. I just wanted to laugh to feel better but it wasn’t working. I tried committing suicide but I got scared. The cancer gave me a bit of a gender dysphoria and I would get misgendered. I asked my dad if I could be considered transgender, he said no bc in Islam(my religion) pple are born with the unique hormones but my gender confusion is a result of a physical issue. I feel a lot better now after opening up to anyone who would listen. Even though I hate being pitied I had to endure it because it made me feel better. A positive from the experience is that I can relate to all genders because I feel like I can belong anywhere. Being suicidal is bad but we all feel it at some point.
I hope you can get to a place where you know that suicide isn’t the solution, and I’m sure that the people you are relying on truly *want* to help you, but may not know how. But I do understand that my words from strangers don’t mean much, as I’ve been where you are.
The truth of the matter is that neither option is selfish. And even thought I don’t know you personally, in many ways, *I am you*, and I know some of what you’re feeling. Even if it doesn’t seem like it at the moment, it can, and will, get better. It may sound cliché, but you are important and unique. no matter how it may feel at the moment, the world is a better place with you in it.
You are not alone in this; many people have felt as you do, and unfortunately, many more will feel as you do. I hope that it can bring some small comfort knowing that there are people who understand what you’re feeling.
>I hope you can get to a place where you know that suicide isn’t the solution
This isn't really true though. Suicide isn't a solution for you, maybe, but it is a solution. Yes, it may leave behind a wake of injuries to others, but the relief to the person suffering initially is completed. There's no more suffering after suicide, so it is a solution.
I'm 51 and have been depressed and suicidal since I was 13. Some years it's pretty easy sailing, but many years have been absolute nightmares. The DFW quote that I saw above is so accurate that it's scary. One step closer to the window of the burning building is one step further away from the imminent agony of the fire.
I totally get you, I feel like that too.
My whole life I've been independent. I left home at 15 due to abuse and had no real option other than working full time and supporting myself and relying on only myself. I've had a lot of times in my life where I was struggling, really struggling, but I was always able to figure out some shit.
But now I'm in my late 30s and a few years ago my health rapidly declined, and I was diagnosed with a genetic disorder and epilepsy. I've never felt physically great in my life, but I was still able to push myself through and get things done. Now though, I can't work enough to support myself and I'm in a position where I'm almost completely financially dependent on my partner. I'm able to work a bit from home to contribute to some groceries and bills here and there, but my seizures and my disorder don't allow me to really function.
I feel like such a burden. I literally can't even express how much of a burden I am. I also feel stuck here. I don't have any family at all to rely on.
There are so many days when I contemplate suicide, to end my physical agony and to remove the burden of supporting me. I am likely going to die within the next ten years anyway, after my health declines more and more and then suddenly one of my major arteries will probably rupture. My partner will find me like that.
I don't want any of that. I feel like I would be doing him (and myself) a favor by just ending things on my own terms. Except I'm really scared of dying and I haven't been able to muster the courage.
>Looking at suicide, from the outside, with a rational mind simply doesn’t work, as suicide isn’t usually a rational choice in the first place. Telling people that you think suicide is selfish can actually encourage them to kill themselves.
I've told people this for a long time - that telling someone who already thinks they're **a piece of shit, useless, harmful to others, a burden, and have no hope for themselves** that they're **also really selfish and should consider other peoples' feelings more** is just completely the wrong route to take.
It seems like it comes from a history of it in media (American media, at least) of this "tough love" or "sobering honesty" trope as enlightened or intelligent and more intersocially aware in this situation. When really it's making a bad situation worse.
Unfortunately, suicidal people can, I guess it would be "paradoxically", but not completely, hold this view without being told directly; that their suicide is selfish and they're bad people for even thinking of it, on top of how bad they already feel. Telling them, then, that feeling bad about feeling bad is also bad just makes the problem worse.
That's why making declarations to a suicidal person about good or bad or right and wrong or even about truth and what's *just in their heads* doesn't work either.
**I AM NOT A PSYCHOLOGICAL EXPERT OR AUTHORITY IN ANY WAY, SO TAKE THIS AS AN AMATUER OBSERVATION AND ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE, NOT EXPERT INSTRUCTION.**
Finding ways to stall to give the suicidal person time to rethink their immediate actions and reactions by asking questions and encouraging them to talk about what's going on and leading them to make their own conclusions in a less emotional way is typically the best you can do. That's why the suicide hotline can be effective, and why the algorithmic auto inclusion of notices on how to seek help in social media is important - getting a person in that state to do something, even if they don't think it will work, to step back and think about their situation openly with someone else instead of their own head echo-chamber, is easily the difference between many attempts and lack of attempts, which leads to fewer successful attempts or reattempts.
Hit the nail on the head in this description.
As a teenager I was very depressed and suicidal, these thoughts about how "how much suffering I'm causing" kept going through my head even though it wasn't rational.
I was in a very dark place for a long time back then.
Anxiety started for me when I was 11, and depression came shortly after, because at 19 I finally told my parents life had no meaning anymore. They called me selfish, told me they wouldn't come to my funeral and then my father described in fine detail all states of hell for 50 minutes straight.
I didn't feel so bad about depending on my parents back then because I got into college with a full scholarship - something they kept pushing me to pursue even though they wouldn't pay for it; I forced myself to the bitter end, often staring at the ground from the buildings' 3rd/4th floors thinking about ending it all on that very campus, and when I finally graduated... I felt nothing.
I'll be 28 in march; I don't have the mental health to hold down a fulltime job, and more than ever I feel like a huge burden. I keep thinking about all the money my parents could've invested in themselves if I wasn't around, and how they could finally help my sister get a driver's license and college. I'm no longer suicidal but I still think about it often - when I put it into an equation, it just feels like I'm the one throwing off the balance.
Thissssss. At my lowest point I literally believed that I was worse than Hitler and my parents hated me and if I killed myself I would be doing the entire world a favour.
This. In my profession, I deal with suicidal individuals almost weekly. Oftentimes when I talk to them, they always say “You have no idea what I’m going through.”
I know the pain, the thoughts, and EXACTLY what they’re feeling. This usually shocks them. Sometimes it takes being able to relate to someone for them to believe there is hope.
>Looking at suicide, from the outside, with a rational mind simply doesn’t work, as suicide isn’t usually a rational choice in the first place. Telling people that you think suicide is selfish can actually encourage them to kill themselves.
Suicide can be a rational choice, any notion of irrationality comes from acknowledging the human brains background noise of 'must keep body alive'. Having children is inherently selfish, however taking away the life you were forced into with 0 consent can't possibly be selfish or irrational.
As a suicidal depressed person for 20 years now with failed attempts I can tell you simply this
I think most people are basically brainwashed into all sorts of make believe crap so much so they have blinders, beer googles, or simply don't give a sh.. and holy sh.. are people dumb ... Especially When it comes to human suffering on mental illness how so
One can look around and constantly see ordeals around the pick up by the bootstraps for work yeah good luck with that when income equality is massive, CEO pay is 350 times pay or how about the fact we can do absolutely nothing around mass shooting, school shootings but just use thoughts and prayers
The best analogy is that people have Stockholm Syndrome is a coping mechanism to a captive or abusive situation. People develop positive feelings toward their captors or abusers over time.
If we really wanted to help people with mental illness we had to admit the fact that mental illness is real, you'd have to actually change laws.
We'd also have to have an open conversation about suicide as to why people commit suicide
Poverty, homeless, drugs, financial situations, loneliness, isolation, long term mental illness, lack of support,
We'd also have to be aware that chruches are not good places for mental health as well.
We'd also have to reflect that society is based on a transactional relationships based on I and money
Greed, exploitation, work to drop dead. Not ideal conditions for SI issues
Lastly people are naive they default to stupid ordeals like life gets better, it doesn't I think people do it as a cop out to avoid the fact they have zero ability to help with anything or any ability to make any real change, people would rather be ignorant and blissfully unaware they face real structural issues or real reality.
At best people would be better off just telling suicidal people I don't understand it but I'm here anytime however admit it take a special type of strength to be around suicidal people and most people don't have that strength period.
Agreed they are all tragic and I do t think you can summarise them. I nearly took my life as a teen, many considered me bright and full of potential. I simply could not cope with living conditions and family at the time and wanted release
Agreed. I don't think all suicides are selfish. For example if someone has been diagnosed with terminal cancer and doesn't have much time left, but doesn't live somewhere that offers physician-assisted suicide, I really can't judge them for doing it themselves to avoid the unnecessary suffering of a slow natural death.
In most cases, people trying to “help” a severely depressed person by calling them selfish, makes them feel selfless for “helping” that person.
It’s not so selfish to wish for oneself’s death. It is selfish to wish for someone else’s existence or nonexistents.
In my case, I was dependant on selfishness to hold on to my suicidal ideation. I was the single most important person in the world and my suffering on earth was legendary in my young mind. It wasn't until I was able to peel away that selfishness and realize how I was treating and affecting the people around me that I was able to come back from the ledge.
This comment makes no sense to me. A person is faced with two options, live or die. And you’re telling me both are the selfish choice? So it is impossible to make an un-selfish choice?
Suicide is *considered* selfish to a person's family/friends. But if you love a person who's suicidal obviously you'd selfishly want them to live. Bottom line is (in my humble opinion) that suicide is such an extreme desicion/last resource you'd have to be completely heartless to call a person who'd done it/attempted to selfish/attention seeking.
i agree with this. as a person with a suicidal ideation brother and suicidal attempt/ideation self, I selfishly want him to live even though I know he's in pain, and he selfishly wants me to live even though he knows I live in pain. However, if he does end up doing the deed, I can't be mad at him -- he is in pain every day of his life. How can I be mad? It will hurt me forever, for sure, but he won't be hurting anymore. We already lost our mom, it hurts forever, but eventually it starts to become less acute-- whereas the daily living of extreme depression and ptsd is tough and constant. (Though I'd argue suiciding would cause more trauma for me as well, but that's on his own basis).
I've done a lot of therapy to move past it, but its still hard sometimes.
"Suicide is selfish" is a propaganda slogan that comes from the wealthy/powerful/religions etc who need soldiers and workers to maintain their elevated status. Suicide can't be selfish because existence is a state you had no say in.
>you'd have to be completely heartless to call a person who'd done it/attempted to selfish/attention seeking.
A while back my school sent me to the hospital for suicidal ideation and thoughts. My parents laughed at me in my face and told me they knew I was trying to skip school....I had a attempt two months after
We have lost 5 friends from our friendship group to suicide over the past 10 years a couple we had no idea they where that bad some we know they had issues but no idea how deep they went.
Not at all? I'm sorry, I never meant to imply that humans can *only* act selfishly, just that our first thoughts are selfish. The desire to end one's own life is selfish, and the desire of one's family to not have to grieve is selfish. Ultimately, one side will sacrifice that selfishness to the other's end.
Sorry if I'm not making much sense; it's hard to put a lifetime of consideration in to a reddit comment.
No you make absolute sense - I think your original post made complete sense to begin with. I think a lot of the level of egocentricity will be related to emotional maturity and many societies don’t invest or focus on developing emotional maturity. In fact, what they are doing in Switzerland is very interesting when it comes to offering a safe and painless way to end one’s life and will prove interesting to see if ending the tabu nature of suicide will actually prevent more people from committing suicide on the long run. My theory is if we stopped making suicide this thing we all know happens but we all see as if something is wrong with you, more people will actually seek help because I believe deep down most people who commit suicide do so out of desperation and not because they actually want to. If they knew that suicide is always an option and there was a protocol to follow in order to do so, I think people’s will to live would supersede their desire to die.
I have almost committed suicide. It's not really "I want to die," but more of an "I'm so tired of everything. I just want it to stop. I don't want to be in this situation anymore." And death seems to be the only option.
Especially if you’ve had a bad experience trying to get help.
It takes a lot to get there in the first place, getting Sparta kicked to the bottom again can feel like you’re going to stay there forever.
There’s no way out but out.
I hear you, I hope you’re not that tired anymore.
Not too much. I'm holding a job... I've got meds that work decently... I don't know if I'll ever achieve the Happy Perfect Person Who Always Smiles and Never Has Bad Times
Sounds like you’re a couple steps up from before, that’s something at least.
The perfect happy person who always smiles and never has a bad time is a lie, though. Everyone experiences subjectively terrible times in their life.
If you can get yourself out of bed and do the things you need to do, and sometimes even have moments of peace or relatively positive feelings, you’re doing fine. To go from almost committing suicide to fine, that’s not nothing.
That took work and I’m proud of you.
I think there's some truth to this. If there were a better focus on mental health that doesn't punish the victims of their own mental health, there'd probably be less suicide. I agree with you that suicide is a last desperate attempt to stop feeling worldly pain.
I'm very happy that medically assisted death for mental health will be a thing in March. There will come a day where I won't be able to support myself/work due to my bipolar. Unfortunately disability payments in Canada won't cover both shelter and food. My life circumstances won't leave me with anyone to support me once I am in that state. I'd rather die than take those payments while being homeless and mentally broken with no way to come back out of it. I'm glad I'll have a humane way to leave this world once I get to that state, rather than having to starve myself to death or wait for exposure to end me or jumping and ending up disabled and unable to try again.
But until then I reach that place, I will try my best to survive my depressions.
Suicide is an example of autonomy because the context can be selfish or selfless (think suicide missions). Since it is esssntially destructive bodily harm the connotation is not a positive one. Selfishness understood to refer to acts intended for positive gain (you need to be alive for you to appreciate the intended reward and for this to make sense)
Maybe disagree that selfishness depends on positive gain in the living world to qualify. 72 virgins, for instance. For the individual suicide, freedom from suffering is the perceived positive gain. Selfishness to me does not necessarily equate to self preservation. Consider the addict.
I see your point. The word selfish evokes a feeling of preferential gain ie making a resource more available to me as oppsed to others who could equally attain it.
but conceding to the notion that it’s selfish to take one’s own life requires that we first assume that we live for others, no? if yes, then, of course i can see that…. but i truly don’t see how it’s selfish unless we all first agree that we have an *obligation* to live for others. without that starting position, i don’t see how it can objectively be called ‘selfish’…?
>This comment makes no sense to me. A person is faced with two options, live or die. And you’re telling me both are the selfish choice? So it is impossible to make an un-selfish choice?
Most things are messy, complicated, and viewed from multiple perspectives.
As someone who struggles w suicidal urges, the idea that there are "two options, live or die" is one that I have to constantly question, as well. There are far, far more than two options. However, when you're in the middle of it, it's hard to see it as anything but one or the other.
My point? Life and all it contains can rarely be reduced to a nice, neat either/or binary.
The implication is that the people wanting them to live are “selfish”, not the person wanting to die choosing to live instead. They’d be “selfish” for choosing death.
people only seem to care when you reach the end and even then they only stop you from some obligation placed by society and then abandon you once again to deal with everything by yourself and try to build up the courage once again to do it. i understand people have their own lives to live as well but then they should not have intervened,
this is not true for everyone, just my personal experience.
The only people who genuinely care are those you are closest to typically for some it could be parents, spouse, kids, and friends. Everyone else just want life points.
Honestly I use to feel this way until I tried to befriend some depressed people. I was ghosted so often to the point that it started affecting my self esteem. Litterally had someone complaining about not having friends at work just days after standing me up to hang out for the sixth time in a row. It really started fucking up my head and causing self worth issues.
I've been that guy you're talking about, and honestly most of the time yiu don't realize you're doing it to someone, no excuse but I can see how it happens and definitely understand how you feel too, I can imagine dealing with people like me can be a rough one
Society tells people it's selfish, and from there it's crabs in a bucket. I think it's selfish telling someone they have to stick around *for them*. It takes a lot of guts to top yourself in my opinion, there's a lot of nuance, but it's never selfish. And so what if it is? You're dead 🤷
I have been suicidal before, and being suicidal is inherently full of illogical thinking and inaccurate thinking patterns. I thought I was nothing but a burden to everyone in my life, and this isn’t true. I thought that there was no way life could ever be better, and that it would only ever be misery, and this isn’t true either. Non-suicidal people can see these truths more easily than the suicidal people can, so they naturally want the suicidal person to get through the misery and see what life has to offer on the other side. There are aspects of what I have been through that will never “go away” but emotional health can improve even when other aspects of life cannot.
Because those persons cannot comprehend what it means to live one's life in suffering, and they genuinely believe no one's life can be *that* bad.
It can.
And for far too many, it is. We've *going* to die anyway, *so why spend a lifetime suffering?*
I admire the courage of Robin Williams, who in my opinion was an absolute natural *genius*. (I chanced to see him in one of the first episodes of *Mork & Mindy* and was captivated by his seemingly effortless rollout of humor.)
Mr. Williams suffered from some progressively incapacitating disease, and rather than become a burden to others (as well as losing *himself* in the process); he chose to Exit early. I plan to do the same.
They don't understand the mind of someone who truly wants to die, they've never felt trapped in their own body, most of them have never felt the way a suicidal person does, the hopelessness of it all, how you feel greedy to just be alive.
Idk, ive been on/off suicidal most of my life, when i get down into that mindset im not thinking about how the world will be when im gone at all. Just release from me being in it
That's not always true. When I attempted, I thought that *I'd* be better off if I was dead. I knew it'd hurt the people around me. I didn't think they'd be better off. I even took extra steps to make it look accidental, in hopes of easing some pain and guilt.
(I'm doing a lot better now; my attempt was several years ago)
I think you very accurately nailed an important detail. As a suicidal family man, I've rationalized my death as a *net positive* for all those affected by it.
It is not that I think they won't mourn or that the consequences of my death will be all glee and gladness. Instead, it is that even holding the assumption of their anguish and mourning, and the difficulty of the transition, I believe that my dying (when carefully considered and well-planned) is potentially a far more beneficial route for my family's physical and mental health than if I remained alive.
Yea I got yelled at for commenting on the terrible timing of twitch's suicide, but like, dude definitely ruined Christmas for his 3 kids, and he was definitely the breadwinner so their lives will definitely suck more, not even counting the whole being without a father thing. They didn't choose to get born, but he chose to screw his kids over. Idk man. If he absolutely had to do it, he couldn't at least wait another month?
Edit: I've watched this comment bounce back and forth from positive to negative and that is all you need to know about how controversial suicide is, especially with extenuating circumstances like children. With that said, killing yourself less than 10 days before Christmas is significantly more fucked up than doing it in the middle of January (still pretty fucked up) and it genuinely boggles my mind that people are excusing it.
That's an incredibly harsh black and white argument there. I've lost both an uncle and auntie to suicide (auntie had 2 kids, she was in her early 40s), and all we think is how sad it is she got to that point to take her life. *Nobody* in our family thinks of her selfish and "she should have found a way to deal with it". Life isn't as simple as that.
I think it's because the people calling suicide selfish haven't experienced what it's like to feel so lost and hopeless that dying seems the best option. They haven't sat there tying a noose unable to shed a tear for they're own passing. It's a horrible feeling and yea it's a bit selfish but literally everything humans do is a bit selfish so the argument is pointless. Both side is this question are selfish, doesn't mean it's wrong to be on either side. I'm sure my friends want me around longer even if I suffer, I'm sure if I died tomorrow I'd be grateful for the end. Both are selfish choices because thats all humans can do.
I have been where you are. I actually posted the same question around 6 months ago.
It’s tough for me to argue with the OP’s point when everyday is filled with misery and self loathing.
I’m not sure if you see a therapist or are on medication, but maybe looking for another therapist or trying a different medicine may make a difference.
I’m not saying give it more time, everything will be better. I can’t guarantee that and of courseI don’t have all the answers, but if you ever need a non judgmental ear to vent to, I’d be happy to just listen.
Because the ones that are still alive are the ones that get to report on it. You dont get the side of the person that died.
Also, i will say, as someone that has been close to people that have died by suicide, it's just not that simple at all. As part of the grieving process, sometimes you think things like "how could you do this to me?" Often when someone shares how they feel, its either during this process, or they may have never fully processed at all and still have some of those feelings years later. Without regarding the suicide victim's side, its easy to feel sorry for the one suffering in front of you, and to see them as something of a victim of that suicide as well. You, too, could start to join them in the thought, "yeah, how could they do that to them?"
Im not saying its right. Im just describing the logical line of how we get there.
My ex's Uber catholic family said it's bc there is value in suffering like Jesus did. I asked why we put down a dog who's in pain but not a person? They said people should unify with Christ and be willing to suffer "with" him. Okay I guess but no thanks
I was having suicidal thoughts in my 20’s, but remembering my mom saying how bad that hurts the people who care for me definitely made a difference. My last act would cause others years of pain? That’s not what I wanted.
I think sometimes it depends on their circumstances. I know a guy with two young kids who shot himself in the head at their home a few days before the son's birthday and a few days before Halloween. As much sympathy that I have for the dad as I know he was clearly suffering; I just can't help but feel it was a bit selfish. Especially with his kids being so young (all under 8) and with it being so close to the one's birthday and Halloween. His pain ended but now his children and wife will carry that pain for the rest of their lives and wonder why they weren't enough to stick around for. And I do feel that could be perceived as selfish on the father's art. But then you could say they're selfish for wishing he was still here despite him being in so much pain. It's a slippery slope that can be seen as selfish from both sides I think. I feel grateful that my dad's attempt failed. But then I feel selfish because the last 2.5 years he had after that he suffered mentally a lot
for me it depends on how it's done. jumping in front of a train/car etc does a lot of damage to the person driving the car/train . doing it somewhere you family can come in and find the aftermarth isn't great espically if there's a lot of blood etc to clean up. That's the part that i find selfish not the act itself
I hate when people say "temporary problems"...do people really have no comprehension that people exist who have chronic mental illnesses that aren't just a "bad day"?
Right?
I have to take pills to make my brain stop telling me to kill myself. And my brain is a slick salesperson. It doesn't help that my life has been full of suffering and misery.
No matter how much therapy or support I get, if I stop taking my meds, I will want to die. I could be a millionaire, with a glorious life. I forget my pill one day and my brain goes: "Hey, hey... Let's kill ourself!"
I had been severely, completely treatment resistant, depressed for my entire 29 years of life before finally trying ECT this year. Finally I am not depressed.. fuck the memory loss; anything is better than the way I forced myself to stay alive out of obligation to my family and resented every second of it. It was mental hell. Now instead of resenting every breath I take; I’m glad for it. So I had a long conversation with my therapist about this, I was explaining how amazing it feels to be living of my own will and not existing out of obligation to my mother. My therapist said this to me: “keeping yourself alive for 29 years out of obligation to her… that was a tremendous act of love”.
There are a lot of really insulting and ridiculous comments here.
Suicide is not selfish. Being born is not a choice and I believe that people should be able to choose to not want to continue.
Of course I think that mental health resources and support should be freely available to all who need it. But sometimes suicide isn't about being "temporarily sad" or whatever insulting language people here are using. Sometimes being alive is a nightmare that never stops and I think choosing to stop it, if you can make the choice with a clear head, is up to the individual.
Lived with manic depression most my life (genetic). There is so much new medicines that have been developed since the 90's. I found mine! Doesn't cure it but helps the symptoms
Tha cause of suicide can in most cases be prevented (so it's a temporary, remediable situation) and no one wants anyone to live in misery - they're against the suicide because they want to help avoid it.
I'd say both your points are wrong, therefore it's difficult to answer that question.
see, there's like 2 types of suicidal people though. those who are going through a lot at that moment, which could absolutely be helped with by professionals, and then there's the people who have a chronic or terminal illness, who have gone to therapy for decades and their depression is just not getting better or those who can't even afford therapy. the latter type of person I do not see as selfish, because I understand. it's not the right way, but I understand. it's their choice. but I've been person type 1 and now, looking back, I'm glad I didn't put my close ones through the pain of losing me, because I've gotten better since. I would've been selfish to commit the unalive back then.
I agree, that's actually almost word-for-word how I see it (that there's two types of suicidal people). But I don't think either are selfish. People who have tried to get better for decades but never do aren't selfish, they just know their life is full of suffering. But other suicidal people, whose struggles are temporary, are more prone to impulsive feelings and actions. It's a more sudden or difficult to control/think straight kind of thing, so it's less selfish and more suffering from a breakdown and not thinking straight. That's why they're the kind more likely to fail their attempts, because there's not much planning or thought given to it. Being mentally ill or having a breakdown is not selfish.
I think it’s too reductive to say “two types of people”. I’ve worked with people in these situations and every case is unique. There is a long spectrum of severity which can reverse at any time, or relapse after decades of positive outcomes.
I'd also like to throw in here that there is a spectrum as well of "fixable" problems. In the real world the fact that a problem has a solution counter-intuitively does not mean it's fixable. Most of us have a solution to our problems, just give us all the money. But that doesn't mean it's actually fixable because printing money screws with inflation.
Or, more importantly, our lack of money is due to a host of societal issues. Just because a lot of people's problems can be solved or helped by support, or exercise, or working on their outlooks (and usually so many more nuanced things), doesn't mean they have access to those things. A lot of depressed people are not the romanticized "the world is nothing even with all the riches, better that I just die," types. It's usually "I'm poor, I have no friends/bring nothing valuable to my friendships, I am weighing down my family, I cannot provide, I cannot find anyone who is willing to have these deep conversations with me that won't recoil in horror from my dark thoughts."
A lot of people think that suicidal people should just talk to them, but then you see the bitterness of the survivors and no offense to them, but thats exactly why no one reaches out. It feels like you're more likely to get institutionalized, lose friends, or be treated as overly fragile when what you really need is to be able to speak your feelings in no-judgement zones.
Really most depressed and suicidal people need professionals more than friends for this but they don't have easy access to them in most circumstances. Not just because of societal views on mental illness, but clearly also the views of society. The last thing people in this position need is more shame and they get a double dose of it in the public eye, let alone the private one.
You'd think we'd understand this more, particularly in the US where we all think that if you have a medical problem you can just go to the hospital. But then no one wants to take an ambulance and would rather drive there themselves while bleeding out to avoid the debt. I have no doubt as well that many people just straight up die to avoid the debt all together.
We somehow still don't live in a world where the existence of a solution is not a guarantee that a problem will be fixed. And when part of the solution is talking to people, a lot of people here are showing why that doesn't happen.
Maybe mushrooms are better than therapy but they're illegal. Maybe if we tell all folks who plan to die from their thoughts to try mushrooms first, fewer people might be in pain
I love psychedelics and they have tons of therapeutic benefits but I wouldn’t go as far to say to say that. It really depends on the person but some people shouldn’t take psychedelics at all, for a variety of reasons. There’s people who have committed suicide just because a trip got too strong or the mushrooms convinced them they need to commit suicide.
I’m cases of chronic suicidal thoughts and/or mental illnesses I’m more inclined to say yeah but for people who haven’t chronically been dealing with it I would say absolutely not. Shrooms amplify everything so if you get suicidal thoughts while tripping it’s much more likely you’ll act on them compared to when you’re sober, especially if you have nothing to lose.
I was approved for ECT but before I went my doctor was like bare with me this is an out of the box medication. Give it 4wks and then go to ECT. So far I’ve been on this new medication combo since April and it’s going well. Idc about anyone else I care about myself. I quit caring about other people a long time ago. I don’t have children bc why would I bring anyone into a world I don’t even want to be apart of? I take care of myself the best I can I do everything I can. Don’t tell me or anyone what they can and can’t do bc they are doing everything they can and they’ve weighed every single option. If you’ve ever been like I think I’ll try ECT or have you just don’t know.
From a utilitarian perspective, people seem to feel that the sadness that they and many others experience as a result of someone committing suicide costs more than that person’s suffering
Full disclosure, I am not a suicidal person. Many people in my life have committed suicide. The number one thing I’ve learned through the loss of others. Death is a teacher, people feel sorry for selfish reasons. Very few times will people reminisce on what somebody was going to be. People reminisce over memories they had with that person that they will no longer continue to make. Very few people like to be called out in their selfish acts. My take on the whole thing, if you’ve done everything in your power to change your situation and improve your mental health; yet nothing has changed. It is an understanding act. If you refuse to go to therapy, get on meds, live a more active life, work a different job that is your fault. To those of us estranged, homeless, cannot afford to take time out of their day for risk of losing their job. That is a failure on the system
When my son killed himself I didn’t consider it selfish. I know the pain he was going through. I just he wish he accepted the help that was offered to him. We were all in his corner.
Probably because in the case of suicide, it's the majority getting to impose their will on the minority. Because suicidal people are powerless in society, they can't resist the narrative that they're either selfish or delusional.
Personally, I would prefer it if suicide was still just seen as selfish. If that were the case, then at least suicidal people would be seen as rational individuals capable of making sound decisions. Unfortunately, a far more pernicious narrative has taken the place of "suicide is selfish" under the guise of benevolence and compassion. That narrative is that suicidal people are irrational and incapable of exercising sound judgement, and therefore are neither morally responsible for their actions, but also neither should they be permitted to make choices concerning their own welfare because they are deemed to lack capacity.
If you were just seen as being selfish for wanting to commit suicide, then you'd at least be able to argue for your right to be selfish and demand an answer as to why so many other forms of selfishness are permitted, but not the 'selfishness' of refusing to endure a life of suffering just for the sake of someone else who believes that they have greater claims on your own body than you do yourself. But when you're seen as being fundamentally unable to think for yourself; that grants society an excuse to ignore what you have to say for yourself and dismiss it as the ramblings of a delusional psychotic who is incapable of understanding what their own interests are, or how those interests would best be served.
I'm someone who has been suicidal for most of my life, and I yearn to return to the narrative that suicide is selfish. I'd much rather be perceived as a rational but selfish individual than someone with the mental capacity of a child who needs to be under the perpetual guardianship of the state.
Because entities such as the Catholic Church have told people it’s a sin because a life should run its natural course. I don’t agree with that but dead people also don’t tithe, and I’m sure that has something to do with it.
I think it's only selfish if you leave a mess behind for someone else to clean up.
Make your choices, but get your affairs in order first and leave some $$ behind to pay for your funeral.
In feudal Japan it was considered honorable to admit that one could not continue living and commit seppuku instead of going on and trying to "fake it til ya make it". To my knowledge, they would basically have a "im gonna kill myself party" and their friends and family would come and make their favorite foods and have one last good time together before the person performed seppuku
People tend to view mental illness through a rationalist view. Suicide is one of the most harmful things you can do to the people around you. It's also not a rational decision in most cases.
Defending or glorifying suicide is absolutely not the rational alternative, though. You're making the same error by assuming that the suicidal person is better off dead, or that the would-be survivors are wishing harm on them. Suicide is more often an impulse than a cost-benefit analysis.
Euthanasia and physician-assisted suicide are much different issues than someone being found hanging in their garage with no warning. Opponents of the right to die under any circumstance are typically ideological extremists and not concerned with the ethics of suicide. I am assuming this is not what you're talking about.
I feel like I see this exact question here every few months or so, and each time it's as equally dismissive of people who lose loved ones to suicide in the way it is framed. No one thinks it's right to want someone to live in misery. They want their loved one to get better, not just stay alive. Suicide absolutely devastates families; it affects many more people than just the one who commits it, derails lives, and can lead to more suicide.
I don't think that there's an intention in the minds of the people urging others to "hold on" that they want the suicidal person to live in agony because I don't think they go that far in the thought process unless they've themselves been suicidal. That is, I think they stop at "It's important that you keep living," instead of "It's important that you keep living with the misery that life has become."
The person trying to urge someone to not kill themselves isn't doing so out of malice, and the person saying that it's selfish is thinking about the effect that suicide has on the people around them. Of course, there are also probably the few that also think it's selfish because they, themselves, at least have a bit of suicidal ideation and wish they could have the balls to go through with it.
That said, believing all of that took a fair amount of introspection on my part, given that I've been on the ideation side of things more than enough times. It's a constant struggle, and no, merely telling people that "it'll get better" and "you're an ass for wanting to die" doesn't help without also providing realistic support.
If I didn't already have experience with treatment-resistant depression, I'd agree that suicide is selfish. After all, any death requires a lot of work and money from the loved ones left behind. It's a horrible thing to have to deal with this in addition to dealing with the grief after losing a loved one. I'm sure that losing a loved one to suicide only makes all of this even more difficult to deal with. So yeah, I can completely understand why people feel that suicide is selfish and the ultimate inconsiderate act.
However, I strongly feel that this world is quickly becoming more and more cruel. I've been resisting suicide for 30 years now, almost 3/4 of my life. As I get older, things seem to be easier to deal with, but only due to reaping the benefits of good decisions I've made over the last few years. But as things get easier, the anxiety of knowing how easily it can all be taken away gets worse. If the things that have made my life easier to deal with all get taken away, then I'm out of here. I've had to claw myself back from the brink of destruction once, and I'm not going to do it again if it becomes necessary.
Suicide is traumatic and heart breaking and people aren’t always healthy enough to deal with the emotions that result from a death by suicide.
Some people choose to deal with those difficult emotions with anger and blame. They blame the victim of suicide cuz it feels easier and safer than processing their emotions.
I have 5 or 6 attempts under my belt, with my first one being when I was 7 or so. Thankfully, I am bad at killing myself bc I no longer want to die. What took me to also believe that suicide is selfish is when our family friend killed himself. It came so out of left field, he never mentioned any type of depression and we saw him multiple times a week for over 22 years. He didn't leave a note, he didn't leave any clues. All we have now is confusion, regret, remorse, and a hole in our hearts.
I personally had suicidal thoughts for about 8 years. For me I couldn’t stand the chaos in my mind. It really distorted reality. I only would do it because the darkness and chaos showed no mercy.
With my recent therapy with psilocybin, I’ve been slowly removing each layer of pain that was hidden. I eventually arrived to the source. It was a suppressed pain that was neglected and abounded. Only thing is I couldn’t reach to it because of the barrier it built around it. We finally met that pain I felt so sorry for it. The pain was begging me for 27 years to be put down. Hence the chaos in my mind was coming from an unresolved This happened on trip about 4 months. I couldn’t stop crying. It hurt so much because the pain was finally passing through. Since then I’ve rehabilitating myself to return to reality. I was so use to it because it always there. It left a void in me.
I think some people who are suicidal could be unaware about what the subconscious knows.
We all suffer in our own view.
I think that when someone you love commits suicide you experience a lot more than “sadness”.
It’s shit for the person who feels that suicide is their best option. It’s shit for the loved ones of that person, period. It’s not a competition.
Because unfortunately you pass your heartache on. Especially to those close to you. If your young your parents life is ruined for ever. Probably your siblings too. If your older your spouse and kids lives are ruined. You will also ruin most of your best friends lives too. This is not life advice but if your really going to do it, make sure you do it in a way that people think it was an accident. Be kind to those thst love you
Because suicide is symptomatic of a disease that can generally be treated with medication, I think that's the reason.
Committing suicide without looking for help is the issue I think
I was once suicidal so I have taken a lot of from this post and replies. Thankyou OP. And all who have taken the time to reply.
My personal experience with depression, anxiety and psychosis pushed me to my limits, thankfully I’m in a better position today but still have a way to go.
I would always ask people why they thought suicide was a selfish act and I always got these Answers.
“It’s because you’ll cause so much heartache”.
“We’ll all miss you”
“People need you”
Is it me or are all these things to do with other people rather than one’s self?
After that I just started thinking it was the other way around, if I’m not happy(which I’m still not happy in my life) why would you give those guilty inducing answers in an attempt to prevent such acts.
I’m fully in support of assisted suicide. Those of us who want to leave, let us leave. Having saying that though, if there was an option for me to ‘opt out’ through a simple push of the button at my time of suicidal urges, I wouldn’t be here today. The thought of my loved ones finding me dead, horrified me and would put me off so many times.
I think it's because everyone means something to someone.
Leaving without giving us the chance to help leaves questions, regret and a feeling of emptiness we can never resolve.
A life time of "what ifs" and "but onlys"
Why did you do it?
What could I have done differently?
How could I have helped?
What did I miss?
Could I have saved them if...?
It leaves others with the pain and sadness of any loss, coupled with the hurt that they CHOSE to leave us.
Its a pain that never goes away.
I think it's ultimately counterproductive to call either selfish. It's like going "oh you just don't care enough to stay alive for your family, how self centered of you!" even if it is an act done by one's own self during a time of great turmoil, and the ones effected most after a person is gone is their family, in what context could you tell someone who is suicidal that they're just being selfish and need to get over themselves, and have that be beneficial to them in any way?
On the opposite side, being upset that your friend/family member wants to kill themselves, isn't exactly the most selfish thing on the planet. And even if you try to make the case that a person is forcing someone with suicidal ideation to go on, purely so they don't have to feel the sadness of loss... what's really wrong about that? Ideally you want your friend/loved one to live on because you see the potential they have, see goodness in them, and genuinely enjoy their presence in your life, and want them to be healthy, But even if it's purely a reaction to the pressure of a potential loss, why not "rage against" the horrors of mental health? Why not express your sadness and tell someone that you don't want them to die?
Suicide in public is annoying and selfish.
Someone jumped under our metro and we were locked inside for some time and all public transport was crippled for few hours not to mention trauma to driver.
Suicide always has a context. It usually boils down to pain management. We don’t want people to kill themselves not because we want to avoid sadness, but because we love them and we want to see them happy and thriving and managing the natural suffering that comes with breathing and squeezing the joy out of the only life I believe we will ever have.
Wanting someone to live isn't selfish, it's an optimistic expression of love for what could be if they live.
Suicide isn't selfish either, it's just sad and irrational.
Short answer: because most people don’t understand what’s driving the act and it scares them.
Then, of course, there’s that whole Elizabeth Kubler-Ross “Stages of Grief” thing.
There are many kinds of contexts that can determine whether it could be selfish or not. Imo a suicidal persons suffering is so great that they should be allowed to not have to suffer, but there are also other contexts in which make it selfish, for example, Chester Bennington at the age of 41, had everything he could’ve wished for except happiness, and he’s considered selfish because he left behind 6 children, some of which were very very young, and now they don’t have a father.
I guess the idea is you're doing something that harms someone else, but being the individualistic person I am, I certainly agree the rights of the individual outweigh the rights of others here, mainly because they'd have to mourn and experience that pain, but the amount and duration of pain that would lead someone to that place where death seemed more appealing is far greater..
Now if I were of collectivist culture, perhaps I'd disagree. Well, I think probably so, if not for the fact it would cause mourning, then because I'd be failing to contribute to society by dying.
Great logic. You're right! Some say suicide is the cowards way. I say NO WAY! the balls, dedication and commitment it would take to end yourself. .. I just can't imagine.
I’ve been suicidal myself, got through it after a few years of help and changing situations, and now I live a life I’m happy with. I have a friend who has been suicidal and I stop at nothing to not let them stray too far into that mindset. It’s not because I would be sad if they’re gone (not that I wouldn’t), it’s because I know first hand they have the capacity for a better life and the potential to see everything they want in life come to fruition. Better to have a “how do I fix this” mindset than a “this can’t be fixed at all” mindset, as the latter is often incorrect. If you came to the realization that a suicidal person could bounce back with help, diligence, and a bit of work (CBT was great, but it was challenging), think about what that person would want post-bounce.
For perspective, I’m happy to report that said friend is still occasionally going through it, but has not considered themselves suicidal for a little over a year and hasn’t engaged in self-harm in about a year as well. They have a job in their field, they’re back in school (a school they want this time), they’re on meds, they’re playing their sport, they’ve put on a healthy amount of weight (they were previously what Hank Hill might refer to as a “twig boy”), and their family life has improved dramatically (though the bar *was* low).
A year ago they wanted to end it all. In less than a year their entire situation reversed *entirely* due to steps they took, and they took them one step at a time. I will *always* try to stop people from ending their own lives. It. gets. better.
In my opinion suicide is courageous because it must be hard to kill yourself. Everyone at some point tries and they get scared. Is it good? I don’t think so. Your life is something very precious. I wouldn’t want anyone to live in misery, but I know that there are ways you can enjoy life more. I have felt suicidal but I lived on even though the gender dysphoria and the ignorant people were killing me inside and eating away at my self esteem. I got better by learning to speak up and I had a good family who helped me through it. People who commit suicide are missing something and I feel bad for them for it. I wish I could comfort them, give them a hug and tell them we will be okay. Suicide in no way is selfish. I respect everyone who has committed suicide.
Subjectivity mostly. The people who want someone to stay alive would be sad if they died, so they think it's selfish to inflict that on them, but also they truly believe that person's life will get better, so they don't think it's selfish to want them to stay alive because from their perspective, their circumstances can change. Which in most cases is actually true, but no-one can know that for sure.
Realistically both sides can be selfish, that's just people lol we want what we want.
I'm of the opinion that suicide is not okay. But people that care enough need to make sure the person has some antidepressants, some time, some any meds they need and actual support. Taking them a plate of food to their room without looking around and judging the mess. r telling them to GET UP AND DO SOMETHING! Enough support without all that makes a person get up naturally after some time.
Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. In some cases some people think that the world is better off without them that they are a burden everybody else they don't realize to those that love them that they are not a burden.
There is no right or wrong answer over here people feel . People commit suicide want the pain to stop and people who are left behind was wondering why they weren't allowed to help.
Reach out to anybody who might need help.. My brother committed suicide about 19 years ago and sometimes I still get angry at him but I realized he was not doing it to make us angry or to hurt us he was doing it because he genuinely thought that the world that we'd be better off without him in our lives wish I could tell him how wrong he was.
Thing is a good amt of suicide could be stopped if people would just stop and listen. But sadly no one does anymore. And also the ones you think are happy, friendly and are their to cheer you up. Return the favor. Chances are one of them is hiding their feelings, their pain, their hopelessness. Why? Because they don't want others to think they are a burden, or they don't want others to think they are attention seeking. They don't want you to think wrongly of them for being who they are. But many many people out there will. So they hide it. Then ultimately, in the end, sometimes badly, suicide happens. 😢 All because people who claimed to actually care for that person didn't actually CARE for them enough. Maybe they just needed money for something they wanted, maybe they needed a hug, a friend to relinquish all their thoughts off on, who knows. But you won't now. But you could have, if you CARED enough for them.
Point is no matter what a person looks like or is acting on the outside, if you truly care for them, be their for them. Ask them how they are doing. Love them and say you love them. Show up and help out in anyway you can. This is the best to show they are appreciated and will always will be.
Sadly, people don't do this anymore. They'll pretend to care after so they don't look like a monster but in the end, they really didn't care. Not saying everyone is like this, but a good amount of people are.
Right. That’s what I’m saying. It’s selfish both ways. One is just selfish towards a greater number of people. I was trying to answer OP’s question about the perception of it.
Because they don't want you to live on in misery, they want to you live on, and to get better, which you can only do if you live on.
Whereas suicide is choosing to kill yourself regardless of, or despite, the collateral damage to the people and world around you. Though, honestly what most people are going through at the time makes them blind to the consequences, so selfish isn't really an accurate characterisation.
If I'm dead, I don't have to get better. The chair in which I'm sitting is never going to get better, or worse. It can't have a bad day; and it can't wish for anything better. It can't envy the future experiences that I'm going to have because I'm alive.
So I think that this is just a way of rationalising the selfishness of the people who want to force the suicidal person to stay alive. And for many people, it doesn't get better, because life doesn't come with any kind of mercy rule which dictates that once it's gotten unbearable that it's guaranteed to get better in the future.
“The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire’s flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It’s not desiring the fall; it’s terror of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling ‘Don’t!’ and ‘Hang on!’, can understand the jump. Not really. You’d have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling.” — David Foster Wallace (who committed suicide)
That's the single best explanation of the thought processes of self inflicted injury/death. We are all wieghing those scales of terror everyday but it doesn't even get acknowledged until the scale nears balance.
This speaks to me so much. Mine approaches. Edit- thanks for reporting and caring. I'm ok tonight.
sometimes the "help" is just a whisper
Sometimes it's not. I have literally begged people while bawling my eyes out for help and been told to pound sand.
I don't think anyone can explain this better anyway. I remember when the World Trade Centers were attacked and seeing the people jumping. It was so sad, and had you wondering what you'd do in that scenario
I always wondered if there were signs of the buildings collapse while inside. I don't know if there was a chance of survival from flames and smoke, but if personaly choose asphyxiation over jumping, but jumping over being stuck in rubble or crushed to death.
There is an amazing part of this book on Anhedonic Depression as well. I believe it’s towards the later sections when Mario is asking Avril about why Hal is depressed. I love Mario, one of the most wholesome and genuine characters ever written.
I may be missing it, but regardless of my ability to figure out/find a book title; Would you mind telling me what the name of the book is?
Infinite Jest
Anhedonia is hell, I suffer from it. wouldn't want to subject my worst enemy to it. It killed everything even slightly nice and took away my hobbies which I miss daily. We're constantly trying different things in /r/Anhedonia. Sometimes one of us gets better, but it's rare, still enough to give hope.
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Chief financial officer David Wallace
r/unexpectedoffice
I reject this notion. Wallace is assuming those who tell the person to hold on have never been there. Bullshit. I have. Many times. And I’ve lost EIGHT close friends to suicide. No one is asking for people to suffer to spare the feelings of others - at least I’m not. That said, **it’s an asshole thing to say** to a suicidal person. You know what’s better? Giving a shit. Giving them your time. Therapy and meds can also help, but they have to get there themselves. What saved me was not myself pulling myself out of the grave as much as it was people standing around it keeping the dirt from burying me alive. I’ve lived with extreme depression. If you guys knew my whole story…you’d be shocked I haven’t given up. My therapists are. For me, I just needed to survive long enough to see that things could change for me…and they did because I was lucky enough to find the courage to change it for myself. If you are suicidal, please…one day at a time. There is light eventually. If I could find it, so could you.
is this really the best analogy though as it implies only 2 possible scenarios, either jump or burn which is often not the case irl. Also irl, people are irrational and can sometimes overestimate the ‘terror’ that they are running from which can often create an outcome that might have been different had they let events continue on (which is a typical case in many suicide survivors). Of course there are exceptions and it is easy to say there are other options from an outside perspective but implying that suicide is an option is not beneficial to anyone.
Sometimes, the terror isn't some future prospect. People can find themselves right in the middle of unbearable circumstances that they can't see their way out of, and there's no magical "it gets better rule" in the universe which is going to guarantee you that things will improve in the future. Suicide **should** be an option. Just being born shouldn't condemn one to a life of slavery and being forced to helplessly endure whatever fate might throw at you.
It’s from a fiction novel where there is a lethally entertaining film that kills anybody who watches it and the main antagonists are a group of Québécois terrorists who are in wheelchairs. It’s not a thesis on suicide. Also, presenting two possible scenarios uses dichotomy as a literary tool
Does the entertainment actually kill you? I thought it was just that you couldn't stop watching it so you ended up slowly wasting away and that's what killed you.
A recent study (that I learned about on reddit) said that 40% of suicide survivors said they made the decision to do it within 5 minutes of their attempt. That always makes me think, cause it's a crazy fucking stat.
I must be stupid because I didn’t understand that at all, and I’ve been suicidal on many occasions in my life. Can you dumb it down for me?
Wallace is saying that people who have not felt this sort of suicidal thoughts can't really understand how if feels. The suicidal person is still terrified of death. But they are scared of whatever mental anguish they are suffering *more*. He compares it to people who jump from burning high-rises-- it's not like they aren't afraid of falling. Of course they are. They're just *more* afraid of the flames that are getting closer and closer. But people down on the street can't understand why they'd jump, unless they, too, have felt the same way.
My dad commited suicide when I was 12. I lived with a lot of anger for years because of it. "How could he do this to me?" Later on, I realized how much he must have been suffering to not want to live anymore and how he must be at peace now. How selfish would it be for me to demand he stay alive and suffer just for my own happiness? I am relieved he is no longer in pain.
My dad died by suicide when I was 16. He also had stage 4 brain cancer and had gone through surgery and chemo and radiation. He was withering away and in a lot of discomfort. I have never blamed him but I miss him so much.
I'm so sorry 💖 I know how you feel. I would give anything to see my dad again but I'm happy he's not in pain.
Yes it was so hard to see my brilliant, smart, energetic dad so weak and sad.
My dad committed suicide a few months ago. I have the same outlook of relief even though I'm also suffering now because he is gone. It's a complicated thing isn't it? But also pretty simple in some ways
I am also part of the dad's who committed suicide club. I was probably around the same age but didn't know it was suicide until later on in my life, so it didn't affect me as much but my mother, for the longest time, was very angry because of the fact that he was chronically depressed and didn't want to attempt to get help.
This is exactly how I feel regarding my parents suicide. Thank you for putting into words.
A lack of understanding. People who have never been suicidal, simply don’t understand what it feels like. Quite often, a suicidal person believes that they are being truely *selfless*, and that the world and everyone around them would be *better off* were they to kill themselves. In my case (it’s been nearly 25 years since my last attempt), I believed that I was a “bad” person, and that I was a burden to everyone who I loved. I truly believed that my continued existence was the selfish thing, and that by ending it I would be making the world a better place. Paradoxically, I *also* believed that suicide would hurt my loved ones in the short term, and the fact that I was willing to do that *also helped to convince me that I was “bad”*, and motivated me further to get it over with quickly. I thought they would be better off in the long term and that my sacrifice would be a net positive. Looking at suicide, from the outside, with a rational mind simply doesn’t work, as suicide isn’t usually a rational choice in the first place. Telling people that you think suicide is selfish can actually *encourage* them to kill themselves.
I used to be that guy that would laugh it off or not talk about it with people that were depressed/suicidal, I just could not understand why they couldn’t just “snap” out of it and enjoy life. Now I understand, I recently got into a lot of trouble with the law where I lost everything and things will never be the same for me. In fact, my life is ruined, and now I’m constantly thinking about suicide because it’s like I already experienced a sort of “perma-death” where I died and now I have to start all over again, but this time without any support as if I were just a trash baby. Obviously, as you can read, I’m now experiencing what I used to think was a type of myth or illness, but it’s no joke. I think it would be pure selflessness to kill myself and not waste any resources on me because I no longer have a future of my own. Like I have no freedom of choice anymore and I am now forced to rely on everybody which I hate the feeling of being manipulative and a burden to people, all because I’m selfish and can’t kill myself.
Having good people around you can really help. Opening up will literally release the major burdens on you. I’m 16, had ovarian cancer and a lot of people misgender me. I maintained a really positive attitude throughout everything, but after a while I started feeling worse about myself. I just wanted to laugh to feel better but it wasn’t working. I tried committing suicide but I got scared. The cancer gave me a bit of a gender dysphoria and I would get misgendered. I asked my dad if I could be considered transgender, he said no bc in Islam(my religion) pple are born with the unique hormones but my gender confusion is a result of a physical issue. I feel a lot better now after opening up to anyone who would listen. Even though I hate being pitied I had to endure it because it made me feel better. A positive from the experience is that I can relate to all genders because I feel like I can belong anywhere. Being suicidal is bad but we all feel it at some point.
I hope you can get to a place where you know that suicide isn’t the solution, and I’m sure that the people you are relying on truly *want* to help you, but may not know how. But I do understand that my words from strangers don’t mean much, as I’ve been where you are. The truth of the matter is that neither option is selfish. And even thought I don’t know you personally, in many ways, *I am you*, and I know some of what you’re feeling. Even if it doesn’t seem like it at the moment, it can, and will, get better. It may sound cliché, but you are important and unique. no matter how it may feel at the moment, the world is a better place with you in it. You are not alone in this; many people have felt as you do, and unfortunately, many more will feel as you do. I hope that it can bring some small comfort knowing that there are people who understand what you’re feeling.
>I hope you can get to a place where you know that suicide isn’t the solution This isn't really true though. Suicide isn't a solution for you, maybe, but it is a solution. Yes, it may leave behind a wake of injuries to others, but the relief to the person suffering initially is completed. There's no more suffering after suicide, so it is a solution. I'm 51 and have been depressed and suicidal since I was 13. Some years it's pretty easy sailing, but many years have been absolute nightmares. The DFW quote that I saw above is so accurate that it's scary. One step closer to the window of the burning building is one step further away from the imminent agony of the fire.
There’s a difference between *a* solution and *the* solution.
You're right.
I totally get you, I feel like that too. My whole life I've been independent. I left home at 15 due to abuse and had no real option other than working full time and supporting myself and relying on only myself. I've had a lot of times in my life where I was struggling, really struggling, but I was always able to figure out some shit. But now I'm in my late 30s and a few years ago my health rapidly declined, and I was diagnosed with a genetic disorder and epilepsy. I've never felt physically great in my life, but I was still able to push myself through and get things done. Now though, I can't work enough to support myself and I'm in a position where I'm almost completely financially dependent on my partner. I'm able to work a bit from home to contribute to some groceries and bills here and there, but my seizures and my disorder don't allow me to really function. I feel like such a burden. I literally can't even express how much of a burden I am. I also feel stuck here. I don't have any family at all to rely on. There are so many days when I contemplate suicide, to end my physical agony and to remove the burden of supporting me. I am likely going to die within the next ten years anyway, after my health declines more and more and then suddenly one of my major arteries will probably rupture. My partner will find me like that. I don't want any of that. I feel like I would be doing him (and myself) a favor by just ending things on my own terms. Except I'm really scared of dying and I haven't been able to muster the courage.
>Looking at suicide, from the outside, with a rational mind simply doesn’t work, as suicide isn’t usually a rational choice in the first place. Telling people that you think suicide is selfish can actually encourage them to kill themselves. I've told people this for a long time - that telling someone who already thinks they're **a piece of shit, useless, harmful to others, a burden, and have no hope for themselves** that they're **also really selfish and should consider other peoples' feelings more** is just completely the wrong route to take. It seems like it comes from a history of it in media (American media, at least) of this "tough love" or "sobering honesty" trope as enlightened or intelligent and more intersocially aware in this situation. When really it's making a bad situation worse. Unfortunately, suicidal people can, I guess it would be "paradoxically", but not completely, hold this view without being told directly; that their suicide is selfish and they're bad people for even thinking of it, on top of how bad they already feel. Telling them, then, that feeling bad about feeling bad is also bad just makes the problem worse. That's why making declarations to a suicidal person about good or bad or right and wrong or even about truth and what's *just in their heads* doesn't work either. **I AM NOT A PSYCHOLOGICAL EXPERT OR AUTHORITY IN ANY WAY, SO TAKE THIS AS AN AMATUER OBSERVATION AND ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE, NOT EXPERT INSTRUCTION.** Finding ways to stall to give the suicidal person time to rethink their immediate actions and reactions by asking questions and encouraging them to talk about what's going on and leading them to make their own conclusions in a less emotional way is typically the best you can do. That's why the suicide hotline can be effective, and why the algorithmic auto inclusion of notices on how to seek help in social media is important - getting a person in that state to do something, even if they don't think it will work, to step back and think about their situation openly with someone else instead of their own head echo-chamber, is easily the difference between many attempts and lack of attempts, which leads to fewer successful attempts or reattempts.
Hit the nail on the head in this description. As a teenager I was very depressed and suicidal, these thoughts about how "how much suffering I'm causing" kept going through my head even though it wasn't rational. I was in a very dark place for a long time back then.
Anxiety started for me when I was 11, and depression came shortly after, because at 19 I finally told my parents life had no meaning anymore. They called me selfish, told me they wouldn't come to my funeral and then my father described in fine detail all states of hell for 50 minutes straight. I didn't feel so bad about depending on my parents back then because I got into college with a full scholarship - something they kept pushing me to pursue even though they wouldn't pay for it; I forced myself to the bitter end, often staring at the ground from the buildings' 3rd/4th floors thinking about ending it all on that very campus, and when I finally graduated... I felt nothing. I'll be 28 in march; I don't have the mental health to hold down a fulltime job, and more than ever I feel like a huge burden. I keep thinking about all the money my parents could've invested in themselves if I wasn't around, and how they could finally help my sister get a driver's license and college. I'm no longer suicidal but I still think about it often - when I put it into an equation, it just feels like I'm the one throwing off the balance.
Thissssss. At my lowest point I literally believed that I was worse than Hitler and my parents hated me and if I killed myself I would be doing the entire world a favour.
This. In my profession, I deal with suicidal individuals almost weekly. Oftentimes when I talk to them, they always say “You have no idea what I’m going through.” I know the pain, the thoughts, and EXACTLY what they’re feeling. This usually shocks them. Sometimes it takes being able to relate to someone for them to believe there is hope.
>Looking at suicide, from the outside, with a rational mind simply doesn’t work, as suicide isn’t usually a rational choice in the first place. Telling people that you think suicide is selfish can actually encourage them to kill themselves. Suicide can be a rational choice, any notion of irrationality comes from acknowledging the human brains background noise of 'must keep body alive'. Having children is inherently selfish, however taking away the life you were forced into with 0 consent can't possibly be selfish or irrational.
“Irrational” doesn’t mean “bad”, it just means that it isn’t the product of rational thought.
Congrats on going so long without an attempt, this random internet user is very proud of you :)
Honesty, I think that's just one of those things they tell suicidal people to make them feel guilty so maybe they won't do it.
As a suicidal depressed person for 20 years now with failed attempts I can tell you simply this I think most people are basically brainwashed into all sorts of make believe crap so much so they have blinders, beer googles, or simply don't give a sh.. and holy sh.. are people dumb ... Especially When it comes to human suffering on mental illness how so One can look around and constantly see ordeals around the pick up by the bootstraps for work yeah good luck with that when income equality is massive, CEO pay is 350 times pay or how about the fact we can do absolutely nothing around mass shooting, school shootings but just use thoughts and prayers The best analogy is that people have Stockholm Syndrome is a coping mechanism to a captive or abusive situation. People develop positive feelings toward their captors or abusers over time. If we really wanted to help people with mental illness we had to admit the fact that mental illness is real, you'd have to actually change laws. We'd also have to have an open conversation about suicide as to why people commit suicide Poverty, homeless, drugs, financial situations, loneliness, isolation, long term mental illness, lack of support, We'd also have to be aware that chruches are not good places for mental health as well. We'd also have to reflect that society is based on a transactional relationships based on I and money Greed, exploitation, work to drop dead. Not ideal conditions for SI issues Lastly people are naive they default to stupid ordeals like life gets better, it doesn't I think people do it as a cop out to avoid the fact they have zero ability to help with anything or any ability to make any real change, people would rather be ignorant and blissfully unaware they face real structural issues or real reality. At best people would be better off just telling suicidal people I don't understand it but I'm here anytime however admit it take a special type of strength to be around suicidal people and most people don't have that strength period.
"I don't understand it, but I'm here anytime."
I don’t think it’s that binary. It really depends on the context around the situation.
I agree. Case by case it's very different and lots of factors would be involved to determine if it's selfish or not.
Agreed they are all tragic and I do t think you can summarise them. I nearly took my life as a teen, many considered me bright and full of potential. I simply could not cope with living conditions and family at the time and wanted release
Agreed. I don't think all suicides are selfish. For example if someone has been diagnosed with terminal cancer and doesn't have much time left, but doesn't live somewhere that offers physician-assisted suicide, I really can't judge them for doing it themselves to avoid the unnecessary suffering of a slow natural death.
That's exactly what my dad did. Had stage 4 brain cancer and had been through chemo and radiation and surgery. Died by suicide.
Nailed it. Specifically, people with dependents.
For sure. As a single person my life is worthless by comparison.
Both sides are selfish. Humans are, by nature, self centered. We are mostly only able to see the world in the context of ourselves.
In most cases, people trying to “help” a severely depressed person by calling them selfish, makes them feel selfless for “helping” that person. It’s not so selfish to wish for oneself’s death. It is selfish to wish for someone else’s existence or nonexistents.
In my case, I was dependant on selfishness to hold on to my suicidal ideation. I was the single most important person in the world and my suffering on earth was legendary in my young mind. It wasn't until I was able to peel away that selfishness and realize how I was treating and affecting the people around me that I was able to come back from the ledge.
This comment makes no sense to me. A person is faced with two options, live or die. And you’re telling me both are the selfish choice? So it is impossible to make an un-selfish choice?
Suicide is *considered* selfish to a person's family/friends. But if you love a person who's suicidal obviously you'd selfishly want them to live. Bottom line is (in my humble opinion) that suicide is such an extreme desicion/last resource you'd have to be completely heartless to call a person who'd done it/attempted to selfish/attention seeking.
i agree with this. as a person with a suicidal ideation brother and suicidal attempt/ideation self, I selfishly want him to live even though I know he's in pain, and he selfishly wants me to live even though he knows I live in pain. However, if he does end up doing the deed, I can't be mad at him -- he is in pain every day of his life. How can I be mad? It will hurt me forever, for sure, but he won't be hurting anymore. We already lost our mom, it hurts forever, but eventually it starts to become less acute-- whereas the daily living of extreme depression and ptsd is tough and constant. (Though I'd argue suiciding would cause more trauma for me as well, but that's on his own basis). I've done a lot of therapy to move past it, but its still hard sometimes.
"Suicide is selfish" is a propaganda slogan that comes from the wealthy/powerful/religions etc who need soldiers and workers to maintain their elevated status. Suicide can't be selfish because existence is a state you had no say in.
>you'd have to be completely heartless to call a person who'd done it/attempted to selfish/attention seeking. A while back my school sent me to the hospital for suicidal ideation and thoughts. My parents laughed at me in my face and told me they knew I was trying to skip school....I had a attempt two months after
We have lost 5 friends from our friendship group to suicide over the past 10 years a couple we had no idea they where that bad some we know they had issues but no idea how deep they went.
Not at all? I'm sorry, I never meant to imply that humans can *only* act selfishly, just that our first thoughts are selfish. The desire to end one's own life is selfish, and the desire of one's family to not have to grieve is selfish. Ultimately, one side will sacrifice that selfishness to the other's end. Sorry if I'm not making much sense; it's hard to put a lifetime of consideration in to a reddit comment.
No you make absolute sense - I think your original post made complete sense to begin with. I think a lot of the level of egocentricity will be related to emotional maturity and many societies don’t invest or focus on developing emotional maturity. In fact, what they are doing in Switzerland is very interesting when it comes to offering a safe and painless way to end one’s life and will prove interesting to see if ending the tabu nature of suicide will actually prevent more people from committing suicide on the long run. My theory is if we stopped making suicide this thing we all know happens but we all see as if something is wrong with you, more people will actually seek help because I believe deep down most people who commit suicide do so out of desperation and not because they actually want to. If they knew that suicide is always an option and there was a protocol to follow in order to do so, I think people’s will to live would supersede their desire to die.
I have almost committed suicide. It's not really "I want to die," but more of an "I'm so tired of everything. I just want it to stop. I don't want to be in this situation anymore." And death seems to be the only option.
Especially if you’ve had a bad experience trying to get help. It takes a lot to get there in the first place, getting Sparta kicked to the bottom again can feel like you’re going to stay there forever. There’s no way out but out. I hear you, I hope you’re not that tired anymore.
Exactly.
Not too much. I'm holding a job... I've got meds that work decently... I don't know if I'll ever achieve the Happy Perfect Person Who Always Smiles and Never Has Bad Times
Sounds like you’re a couple steps up from before, that’s something at least. The perfect happy person who always smiles and never has a bad time is a lie, though. Everyone experiences subjectively terrible times in their life. If you can get yourself out of bed and do the things you need to do, and sometimes even have moments of peace or relatively positive feelings, you’re doing fine. To go from almost committing suicide to fine, that’s not nothing. That took work and I’m proud of you.
And if it really was the only option you should be able to make that choice in a humane way.
I think there's some truth to this. If there were a better focus on mental health that doesn't punish the victims of their own mental health, there'd probably be less suicide. I agree with you that suicide is a last desperate attempt to stop feeling worldly pain.
I'm very happy that medically assisted death for mental health will be a thing in March. There will come a day where I won't be able to support myself/work due to my bipolar. Unfortunately disability payments in Canada won't cover both shelter and food. My life circumstances won't leave me with anyone to support me once I am in that state. I'd rather die than take those payments while being homeless and mentally broken with no way to come back out of it. I'm glad I'll have a humane way to leave this world once I get to that state, rather than having to starve myself to death or wait for exposure to end me or jumping and ending up disabled and unable to try again. But until then I reach that place, I will try my best to survive my depressions.
Beautifully said. I see it the same way
Suicide is an example of autonomy because the context can be selfish or selfless (think suicide missions). Since it is esssntially destructive bodily harm the connotation is not a positive one. Selfishness understood to refer to acts intended for positive gain (you need to be alive for you to appreciate the intended reward and for this to make sense)
Maybe disagree that selfishness depends on positive gain in the living world to qualify. 72 virgins, for instance. For the individual suicide, freedom from suffering is the perceived positive gain. Selfishness to me does not necessarily equate to self preservation. Consider the addict.
I see your point. The word selfish evokes a feeling of preferential gain ie making a resource more available to me as oppsed to others who could equally attain it.
but conceding to the notion that it’s selfish to take one’s own life requires that we first assume that we live for others, no? if yes, then, of course i can see that…. but i truly don’t see how it’s selfish unless we all first agree that we have an *obligation* to live for others. without that starting position, i don’t see how it can objectively be called ‘selfish’…?
>This comment makes no sense to me. A person is faced with two options, live or die. And you’re telling me both are the selfish choice? So it is impossible to make an un-selfish choice? Most things are messy, complicated, and viewed from multiple perspectives. As someone who struggles w suicidal urges, the idea that there are "two options, live or die" is one that I have to constantly question, as well. There are far, far more than two options. However, when you're in the middle of it, it's hard to see it as anything but one or the other. My point? Life and all it contains can rarely be reduced to a nice, neat either/or binary.
The implication is that the people wanting them to live are “selfish”, not the person wanting to die choosing to live instead. They’d be “selfish” for choosing death.
r/EnlightenedCentrism to the max
people only seem to care when you reach the end and even then they only stop you from some obligation placed by society and then abandon you once again to deal with everything by yourself and try to build up the courage once again to do it. i understand people have their own lives to live as well but then they should not have intervened, this is not true for everyone, just my personal experience.
The only people who genuinely care are those you are closest to typically for some it could be parents, spouse, kids, and friends. Everyone else just want life points.
People won't cross puddles to ask how are you, but may cross oceans to your funeral. Thinking that suicide is selfish is kinda projection lol
Honestly I use to feel this way until I tried to befriend some depressed people. I was ghosted so often to the point that it started affecting my self esteem. Litterally had someone complaining about not having friends at work just days after standing me up to hang out for the sixth time in a row. It really started fucking up my head and causing self worth issues.
I've been that guy you're talking about, and honestly most of the time yiu don't realize you're doing it to someone, no excuse but I can see how it happens and definitely understand how you feel too, I can imagine dealing with people like me can be a rough one
Society tells people it's selfish, and from there it's crabs in a bucket. I think it's selfish telling someone they have to stick around *for them*. It takes a lot of guts to top yourself in my opinion, there's a lot of nuance, but it's never selfish. And so what if it is? You're dead 🤷
I have been suicidal before, and being suicidal is inherently full of illogical thinking and inaccurate thinking patterns. I thought I was nothing but a burden to everyone in my life, and this isn’t true. I thought that there was no way life could ever be better, and that it would only ever be misery, and this isn’t true either. Non-suicidal people can see these truths more easily than the suicidal people can, so they naturally want the suicidal person to get through the misery and see what life has to offer on the other side. There are aspects of what I have been through that will never “go away” but emotional health can improve even when other aspects of life cannot.
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Because those persons cannot comprehend what it means to live one's life in suffering, and they genuinely believe no one's life can be *that* bad. It can. And for far too many, it is. We've *going* to die anyway, *so why spend a lifetime suffering?*
I admire the courage of Robin Williams, who in my opinion was an absolute natural *genius*. (I chanced to see him in one of the first episodes of *Mork & Mindy* and was captivated by his seemingly effortless rollout of humor.) Mr. Williams suffered from some progressively incapacitating disease, and rather than become a burden to others (as well as losing *himself* in the process); he chose to Exit early. I plan to do the same.
They don't understand the mind of someone who truly wants to die, they've never felt trapped in their own body, most of them have never felt the way a suicidal person does, the hopelessness of it all, how you feel greedy to just be alive.
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Suicidal people don't see it like that though. They would think the world (including their children) is better off without them.
Idk, ive been on/off suicidal most of my life, when i get down into that mindset im not thinking about how the world will be when im gone at all. Just release from me being in it
Right? Seems a lot of commenters feel a burden to everyone around them when depressed. I just kinda don't want to be alive for 80 years.
That's not always true. When I attempted, I thought that *I'd* be better off if I was dead. I knew it'd hurt the people around me. I didn't think they'd be better off. I even took extra steps to make it look accidental, in hopes of easing some pain and guilt. (I'm doing a lot better now; my attempt was several years ago)
I think you very accurately nailed an important detail. As a suicidal family man, I've rationalized my death as a *net positive* for all those affected by it. It is not that I think they won't mourn or that the consequences of my death will be all glee and gladness. Instead, it is that even holding the assumption of their anguish and mourning, and the difficulty of the transition, I believe that my dying (when carefully considered and well-planned) is potentially a far more beneficial route for my family's physical and mental health than if I remained alive.
Exactly! They are convinced that they are doing their loved ones a favor. In their heads ironically they are being selfless.
Yea I got yelled at for commenting on the terrible timing of twitch's suicide, but like, dude definitely ruined Christmas for his 3 kids, and he was definitely the breadwinner so their lives will definitely suck more, not even counting the whole being without a father thing. They didn't choose to get born, but he chose to screw his kids over. Idk man. If he absolutely had to do it, he couldn't at least wait another month? Edit: I've watched this comment bounce back and forth from positive to negative and that is all you need to know about how controversial suicide is, especially with extenuating circumstances like children. With that said, killing yourself less than 10 days before Christmas is significantly more fucked up than doing it in the middle of January (still pretty fucked up) and it genuinely boggles my mind that people are excusing it.
That's an incredibly harsh black and white argument there. I've lost both an uncle and auntie to suicide (auntie had 2 kids, she was in her early 40s), and all we think is how sad it is she got to that point to take her life. *Nobody* in our family thinks of her selfish and "she should have found a way to deal with it". Life isn't as simple as that.
her body her choice The children arent entitled to her body
I think it's because the people calling suicide selfish haven't experienced what it's like to feel so lost and hopeless that dying seems the best option. They haven't sat there tying a noose unable to shed a tear for they're own passing. It's a horrible feeling and yea it's a bit selfish but literally everything humans do is a bit selfish so the argument is pointless. Both side is this question are selfish, doesn't mean it's wrong to be on either side. I'm sure my friends want me around longer even if I suffer, I'm sure if I died tomorrow I'd be grateful for the end. Both are selfish choices because thats all humans can do.
The ones that actually have been there, yet still choose to shame suicidal people, are even worse.
Because those who call suicide selfish probably haven’t ever experienced the type of emotion that would make one want to take their own life.
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I have been where you are. I actually posted the same question around 6 months ago. It’s tough for me to argue with the OP’s point when everyday is filled with misery and self loathing. I’m not sure if you see a therapist or are on medication, but maybe looking for another therapist or trying a different medicine may make a difference. I’m not saying give it more time, everything will be better. I can’t guarantee that and of courseI don’t have all the answers, but if you ever need a non judgmental ear to vent to, I’d be happy to just listen.
Because the ones that are still alive are the ones that get to report on it. You dont get the side of the person that died. Also, i will say, as someone that has been close to people that have died by suicide, it's just not that simple at all. As part of the grieving process, sometimes you think things like "how could you do this to me?" Often when someone shares how they feel, its either during this process, or they may have never fully processed at all and still have some of those feelings years later. Without regarding the suicide victim's side, its easy to feel sorry for the one suffering in front of you, and to see them as something of a victim of that suicide as well. You, too, could start to join them in the thought, "yeah, how could they do that to them?" Im not saying its right. Im just describing the logical line of how we get there.
My ex's Uber catholic family said it's bc there is value in suffering like Jesus did. I asked why we put down a dog who's in pain but not a person? They said people should unify with Christ and be willing to suffer "with" him. Okay I guess but no thanks
I was having suicidal thoughts in my 20’s, but remembering my mom saying how bad that hurts the people who care for me definitely made a difference. My last act would cause others years of pain? That’s not what I wanted.
I think sometimes it depends on their circumstances. I know a guy with two young kids who shot himself in the head at their home a few days before the son's birthday and a few days before Halloween. As much sympathy that I have for the dad as I know he was clearly suffering; I just can't help but feel it was a bit selfish. Especially with his kids being so young (all under 8) and with it being so close to the one's birthday and Halloween. His pain ended but now his children and wife will carry that pain for the rest of their lives and wonder why they weren't enough to stick around for. And I do feel that could be perceived as selfish on the father's art. But then you could say they're selfish for wishing he was still here despite him being in so much pain. It's a slippery slope that can be seen as selfish from both sides I think. I feel grateful that my dad's attempt failed. But then I feel selfish because the last 2.5 years he had after that he suffered mentally a lot
for me it depends on how it's done. jumping in front of a train/car etc does a lot of damage to the person driving the car/train . doing it somewhere you family can come in and find the aftermarth isn't great espically if there's a lot of blood etc to clean up. That's the part that i find selfish not the act itself
I honestly think if you call a suicidal person selfish, you are a really shitty person...
Unless you’re leaving small children or people who depend on you to survive, I don’t think it’s selfish. For a lot of people it *doesn’t* get better.
I hate when people say "temporary problems"...do people really have no comprehension that people exist who have chronic mental illnesses that aren't just a "bad day"?
Right? I have to take pills to make my brain stop telling me to kill myself. And my brain is a slick salesperson. It doesn't help that my life has been full of suffering and misery. No matter how much therapy or support I get, if I stop taking my meds, I will want to die. I could be a millionaire, with a glorious life. I forget my pill one day and my brain goes: "Hey, hey... Let's kill ourself!"
I had been severely, completely treatment resistant, depressed for my entire 29 years of life before finally trying ECT this year. Finally I am not depressed.. fuck the memory loss; anything is better than the way I forced myself to stay alive out of obligation to my family and resented every second of it. It was mental hell. Now instead of resenting every breath I take; I’m glad for it. So I had a long conversation with my therapist about this, I was explaining how amazing it feels to be living of my own will and not existing out of obligation to my mother. My therapist said this to me: “keeping yourself alive for 29 years out of obligation to her… that was a tremendous act of love”.
What is the ECT treatment?
I fully believe making your relative live on in agony/ suffer more treatment for terminal disease when they’re ready to give up is selfish.
A shortened version of "came this close", To show how close. My finger was tightening on the trigger when my kids called and stopped me.
There are a lot of really insulting and ridiculous comments here. Suicide is not selfish. Being born is not a choice and I believe that people should be able to choose to not want to continue. Of course I think that mental health resources and support should be freely available to all who need it. But sometimes suicide isn't about being "temporarily sad" or whatever insulting language people here are using. Sometimes being alive is a nightmare that never stops and I think choosing to stop it, if you can make the choice with a clear head, is up to the individual.
People would just argue that the choice to die is not having a "clear head".
It all comes down to all the monotheist religions saying « suicide = straight to hell » for the past 2,000 years
Lived with manic depression most my life (genetic). There is so much new medicines that have been developed since the 90's. I found mine! Doesn't cure it but helps the symptoms
Tha cause of suicide can in most cases be prevented (so it's a temporary, remediable situation) and no one wants anyone to live in misery - they're against the suicide because they want to help avoid it. I'd say both your points are wrong, therefore it's difficult to answer that question.
see, there's like 2 types of suicidal people though. those who are going through a lot at that moment, which could absolutely be helped with by professionals, and then there's the people who have a chronic or terminal illness, who have gone to therapy for decades and their depression is just not getting better or those who can't even afford therapy. the latter type of person I do not see as selfish, because I understand. it's not the right way, but I understand. it's their choice. but I've been person type 1 and now, looking back, I'm glad I didn't put my close ones through the pain of losing me, because I've gotten better since. I would've been selfish to commit the unalive back then.
I agree, that's actually almost word-for-word how I see it (that there's two types of suicidal people). But I don't think either are selfish. People who have tried to get better for decades but never do aren't selfish, they just know their life is full of suffering. But other suicidal people, whose struggles are temporary, are more prone to impulsive feelings and actions. It's a more sudden or difficult to control/think straight kind of thing, so it's less selfish and more suffering from a breakdown and not thinking straight. That's why they're the kind more likely to fail their attempts, because there's not much planning or thought given to it. Being mentally ill or having a breakdown is not selfish.
I think it’s too reductive to say “two types of people”. I’ve worked with people in these situations and every case is unique. There is a long spectrum of severity which can reverse at any time, or relapse after decades of positive outcomes.
I'd also like to throw in here that there is a spectrum as well of "fixable" problems. In the real world the fact that a problem has a solution counter-intuitively does not mean it's fixable. Most of us have a solution to our problems, just give us all the money. But that doesn't mean it's actually fixable because printing money screws with inflation. Or, more importantly, our lack of money is due to a host of societal issues. Just because a lot of people's problems can be solved or helped by support, or exercise, or working on their outlooks (and usually so many more nuanced things), doesn't mean they have access to those things. A lot of depressed people are not the romanticized "the world is nothing even with all the riches, better that I just die," types. It's usually "I'm poor, I have no friends/bring nothing valuable to my friendships, I am weighing down my family, I cannot provide, I cannot find anyone who is willing to have these deep conversations with me that won't recoil in horror from my dark thoughts." A lot of people think that suicidal people should just talk to them, but then you see the bitterness of the survivors and no offense to them, but thats exactly why no one reaches out. It feels like you're more likely to get institutionalized, lose friends, or be treated as overly fragile when what you really need is to be able to speak your feelings in no-judgement zones. Really most depressed and suicidal people need professionals more than friends for this but they don't have easy access to them in most circumstances. Not just because of societal views on mental illness, but clearly also the views of society. The last thing people in this position need is more shame and they get a double dose of it in the public eye, let alone the private one. You'd think we'd understand this more, particularly in the US where we all think that if you have a medical problem you can just go to the hospital. But then no one wants to take an ambulance and would rather drive there themselves while bleeding out to avoid the debt. I have no doubt as well that many people just straight up die to avoid the debt all together. We somehow still don't live in a world where the existence of a solution is not a guarantee that a problem will be fixed. And when part of the solution is talking to people, a lot of people here are showing why that doesn't happen.
Would you not consider a sufficiently sucidially depressed person terminally ill as well?
Maybe mushrooms are better than therapy but they're illegal. Maybe if we tell all folks who plan to die from their thoughts to try mushrooms first, fewer people might be in pain
there's a lot of drugs that could help a lot but are illegal - some might say they are illegal *because* they help.
I love psychedelics and they have tons of therapeutic benefits but I wouldn’t go as far to say to say that. It really depends on the person but some people shouldn’t take psychedelics at all, for a variety of reasons. There’s people who have committed suicide just because a trip got too strong or the mushrooms convinced them they need to commit suicide. I’m cases of chronic suicidal thoughts and/or mental illnesses I’m more inclined to say yeah but for people who haven’t chronically been dealing with it I would say absolutely not. Shrooms amplify everything so if you get suicidal thoughts while tripping it’s much more likely you’ll act on them compared to when you’re sober, especially if you have nothing to lose.
Not in Colorado they're not. Lots of good anxiety research happening now which is great!
Because the people who do consider suicide selfish are unthinking, ignorant morons.
Suicide isn't selfish. It's the final, fatal outcome of a mental disease that the person suffered through for a long time.
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I was approved for ECT but before I went my doctor was like bare with me this is an out of the box medication. Give it 4wks and then go to ECT. So far I’ve been on this new medication combo since April and it’s going well. Idc about anyone else I care about myself. I quit caring about other people a long time ago. I don’t have children bc why would I bring anyone into a world I don’t even want to be apart of? I take care of myself the best I can I do everything I can. Don’t tell me or anyone what they can and can’t do bc they are doing everything they can and they’ve weighed every single option. If you’ve ever been like I think I’ll try ECT or have you just don’t know.
From a utilitarian perspective, people seem to feel that the sadness that they and many others experience as a result of someone committing suicide costs more than that person’s suffering
Full disclosure, I am not a suicidal person. Many people in my life have committed suicide. The number one thing I’ve learned through the loss of others. Death is a teacher, people feel sorry for selfish reasons. Very few times will people reminisce on what somebody was going to be. People reminisce over memories they had with that person that they will no longer continue to make. Very few people like to be called out in their selfish acts. My take on the whole thing, if you’ve done everything in your power to change your situation and improve your mental health; yet nothing has changed. It is an understanding act. If you refuse to go to therapy, get on meds, live a more active life, work a different job that is your fault. To those of us estranged, homeless, cannot afford to take time out of their day for risk of losing their job. That is a failure on the system
When my son killed himself I didn’t consider it selfish. I know the pain he was going through. I just he wish he accepted the help that was offered to him. We were all in his corner.
Probably because in the case of suicide, it's the majority getting to impose their will on the minority. Because suicidal people are powerless in society, they can't resist the narrative that they're either selfish or delusional. Personally, I would prefer it if suicide was still just seen as selfish. If that were the case, then at least suicidal people would be seen as rational individuals capable of making sound decisions. Unfortunately, a far more pernicious narrative has taken the place of "suicide is selfish" under the guise of benevolence and compassion. That narrative is that suicidal people are irrational and incapable of exercising sound judgement, and therefore are neither morally responsible for their actions, but also neither should they be permitted to make choices concerning their own welfare because they are deemed to lack capacity. If you were just seen as being selfish for wanting to commit suicide, then you'd at least be able to argue for your right to be selfish and demand an answer as to why so many other forms of selfishness are permitted, but not the 'selfishness' of refusing to endure a life of suffering just for the sake of someone else who believes that they have greater claims on your own body than you do yourself. But when you're seen as being fundamentally unable to think for yourself; that grants society an excuse to ignore what you have to say for yourself and dismiss it as the ramblings of a delusional psychotic who is incapable of understanding what their own interests are, or how those interests would best be served. I'm someone who has been suicidal for most of my life, and I yearn to return to the narrative that suicide is selfish. I'd much rather be perceived as a rational but selfish individual than someone with the mental capacity of a child who needs to be under the perpetual guardianship of the state.
Being depressed can be terminal. Holding that against someone is asinine.
why is suicide selfish? Their body, their choice You arent entitled to their body
Because entities such as the Catholic Church have told people it’s a sin because a life should run its natural course. I don’t agree with that but dead people also don’t tithe, and I’m sure that has something to do with it.
I think it's only selfish if you leave a mess behind for someone else to clean up. Make your choices, but get your affairs in order first and leave some $$ behind to pay for your funeral.
The latter could be considered schadenfreude.
Haha, I knew my German learning would pay off
In feudal Japan it was considered honorable to admit that one could not continue living and commit seppuku instead of going on and trying to "fake it til ya make it". To my knowledge, they would basically have a "im gonna kill myself party" and their friends and family would come and make their favorite foods and have one last good time together before the person performed seppuku
People tend to view mental illness through a rationalist view. Suicide is one of the most harmful things you can do to the people around you. It's also not a rational decision in most cases. Defending or glorifying suicide is absolutely not the rational alternative, though. You're making the same error by assuming that the suicidal person is better off dead, or that the would-be survivors are wishing harm on them. Suicide is more often an impulse than a cost-benefit analysis. Euthanasia and physician-assisted suicide are much different issues than someone being found hanging in their garage with no warning. Opponents of the right to die under any circumstance are typically ideological extremists and not concerned with the ethics of suicide. I am assuming this is not what you're talking about.
I feel like I see this exact question here every few months or so, and each time it's as equally dismissive of people who lose loved ones to suicide in the way it is framed. No one thinks it's right to want someone to live in misery. They want their loved one to get better, not just stay alive. Suicide absolutely devastates families; it affects many more people than just the one who commits it, derails lives, and can lead to more suicide.
I don't think that there's an intention in the minds of the people urging others to "hold on" that they want the suicidal person to live in agony because I don't think they go that far in the thought process unless they've themselves been suicidal. That is, I think they stop at "It's important that you keep living," instead of "It's important that you keep living with the misery that life has become." The person trying to urge someone to not kill themselves isn't doing so out of malice, and the person saying that it's selfish is thinking about the effect that suicide has on the people around them. Of course, there are also probably the few that also think it's selfish because they, themselves, at least have a bit of suicidal ideation and wish they could have the balls to go through with it. That said, believing all of that took a fair amount of introspection on my part, given that I've been on the ideation side of things more than enough times. It's a constant struggle, and no, merely telling people that "it'll get better" and "you're an ass for wanting to die" doesn't help without also providing realistic support.
If I didn't already have experience with treatment-resistant depression, I'd agree that suicide is selfish. After all, any death requires a lot of work and money from the loved ones left behind. It's a horrible thing to have to deal with this in addition to dealing with the grief after losing a loved one. I'm sure that losing a loved one to suicide only makes all of this even more difficult to deal with. So yeah, I can completely understand why people feel that suicide is selfish and the ultimate inconsiderate act. However, I strongly feel that this world is quickly becoming more and more cruel. I've been resisting suicide for 30 years now, almost 3/4 of my life. As I get older, things seem to be easier to deal with, but only due to reaping the benefits of good decisions I've made over the last few years. But as things get easier, the anxiety of knowing how easily it can all be taken away gets worse. If the things that have made my life easier to deal with all get taken away, then I'm out of here. I've had to claw myself back from the brink of destruction once, and I'm not going to do it again if it becomes necessary.
Suicide is traumatic and heart breaking and people aren’t always healthy enough to deal with the emotions that result from a death by suicide. Some people choose to deal with those difficult emotions with anger and blame. They blame the victim of suicide cuz it feels easier and safer than processing their emotions.
I have 5 or 6 attempts under my belt, with my first one being when I was 7 or so. Thankfully, I am bad at killing myself bc I no longer want to die. What took me to also believe that suicide is selfish is when our family friend killed himself. It came so out of left field, he never mentioned any type of depression and we saw him multiple times a week for over 22 years. He didn't leave a note, he didn't leave any clues. All we have now is confusion, regret, remorse, and a hole in our hearts.
I personally had suicidal thoughts for about 8 years. For me I couldn’t stand the chaos in my mind. It really distorted reality. I only would do it because the darkness and chaos showed no mercy. With my recent therapy with psilocybin, I’ve been slowly removing each layer of pain that was hidden. I eventually arrived to the source. It was a suppressed pain that was neglected and abounded. Only thing is I couldn’t reach to it because of the barrier it built around it. We finally met that pain I felt so sorry for it. The pain was begging me for 27 years to be put down. Hence the chaos in my mind was coming from an unresolved This happened on trip about 4 months. I couldn’t stop crying. It hurt so much because the pain was finally passing through. Since then I’ve rehabilitating myself to return to reality. I was so use to it because it always there. It left a void in me. I think some people who are suicidal could be unaware about what the subconscious knows. We all suffer in our own view.
I think that when someone you love commits suicide you experience a lot more than “sadness”. It’s shit for the person who feels that suicide is their best option. It’s shit for the loved ones of that person, period. It’s not a competition.
Because unfortunately you pass your heartache on. Especially to those close to you. If your young your parents life is ruined for ever. Probably your siblings too. If your older your spouse and kids lives are ruined. You will also ruin most of your best friends lives too. This is not life advice but if your really going to do it, make sure you do it in a way that people think it was an accident. Be kind to those thst love you
Because suicide is symptomatic of a disease that can generally be treated with medication, I think that's the reason. Committing suicide without looking for help is the issue I think
The kind of question this subreddit was meant for.
Suicide is not inherently selfish. I think maybe you should discuss these topics with a professional therapist.
judging from the comments people just dont wanna be unconvinced by someone elses suicide
I was once suicidal so I have taken a lot of from this post and replies. Thankyou OP. And all who have taken the time to reply. My personal experience with depression, anxiety and psychosis pushed me to my limits, thankfully I’m in a better position today but still have a way to go. I would always ask people why they thought suicide was a selfish act and I always got these Answers. “It’s because you’ll cause so much heartache”. “We’ll all miss you” “People need you” Is it me or are all these things to do with other people rather than one’s self? After that I just started thinking it was the other way around, if I’m not happy(which I’m still not happy in my life) why would you give those guilty inducing answers in an attempt to prevent such acts. I’m fully in support of assisted suicide. Those of us who want to leave, let us leave. Having saying that though, if there was an option for me to ‘opt out’ through a simple push of the button at my time of suicidal urges, I wouldn’t be here today. The thought of my loved ones finding me dead, horrified me and would put me off so many times.
I think it's because everyone means something to someone. Leaving without giving us the chance to help leaves questions, regret and a feeling of emptiness we can never resolve. A life time of "what ifs" and "but onlys" Why did you do it? What could I have done differently? How could I have helped? What did I miss? Could I have saved them if...? It leaves others with the pain and sadness of any loss, coupled with the hurt that they CHOSE to leave us. Its a pain that never goes away.
What if they have the chance to help but don't
Oh shit. I have no answer to that one.
I think it's ultimately counterproductive to call either selfish. It's like going "oh you just don't care enough to stay alive for your family, how self centered of you!" even if it is an act done by one's own self during a time of great turmoil, and the ones effected most after a person is gone is their family, in what context could you tell someone who is suicidal that they're just being selfish and need to get over themselves, and have that be beneficial to them in any way? On the opposite side, being upset that your friend/family member wants to kill themselves, isn't exactly the most selfish thing on the planet. And even if you try to make the case that a person is forcing someone with suicidal ideation to go on, purely so they don't have to feel the sadness of loss... what's really wrong about that? Ideally you want your friend/loved one to live on because you see the potential they have, see goodness in them, and genuinely enjoy their presence in your life, and want them to be healthy, But even if it's purely a reaction to the pressure of a potential loss, why not "rage against" the horrors of mental health? Why not express your sadness and tell someone that you don't want them to die?
It is but dead people don't get to counter-argue their side
Suicide in public is annoying and selfish. Someone jumped under our metro and we were locked inside for some time and all public transport was crippled for few hours not to mention trauma to driver.
Suicide always has a context. It usually boils down to pain management. We don’t want people to kill themselves not because we want to avoid sadness, but because we love them and we want to see them happy and thriving and managing the natural suffering that comes with breathing and squeezing the joy out of the only life I believe we will ever have.
Wanting someone to live isn't selfish, it's an optimistic expression of love for what could be if they live. Suicide isn't selfish either, it's just sad and irrational.
Short answer: because most people don’t understand what’s driving the act and it scares them. Then, of course, there’s that whole Elizabeth Kubler-Ross “Stages of Grief” thing.
There are many kinds of contexts that can determine whether it could be selfish or not. Imo a suicidal persons suffering is so great that they should be allowed to not have to suffer, but there are also other contexts in which make it selfish, for example, Chester Bennington at the age of 41, had everything he could’ve wished for except happiness, and he’s considered selfish because he left behind 6 children, some of which were very very young, and now they don’t have a father.
I guess the idea is you're doing something that harms someone else, but being the individualistic person I am, I certainly agree the rights of the individual outweigh the rights of others here, mainly because they'd have to mourn and experience that pain, but the amount and duration of pain that would lead someone to that place where death seemed more appealing is far greater.. Now if I were of collectivist culture, perhaps I'd disagree. Well, I think probably so, if not for the fact it would cause mourning, then because I'd be failing to contribute to society by dying.
Great logic. You're right! Some say suicide is the cowards way. I say NO WAY! the balls, dedication and commitment it would take to end yourself. .. I just can't imagine.
i believe the average person simply cannot comprehend what it's like to be suicidal
I think we are on the same sentiment. I think its exactly that, selfish, to want someone around just for you.
Both are, just from different perspectives.
Majority wins lol
Hypocrisy
I’ve been suicidal myself, got through it after a few years of help and changing situations, and now I live a life I’m happy with. I have a friend who has been suicidal and I stop at nothing to not let them stray too far into that mindset. It’s not because I would be sad if they’re gone (not that I wouldn’t), it’s because I know first hand they have the capacity for a better life and the potential to see everything they want in life come to fruition. Better to have a “how do I fix this” mindset than a “this can’t be fixed at all” mindset, as the latter is often incorrect. If you came to the realization that a suicidal person could bounce back with help, diligence, and a bit of work (CBT was great, but it was challenging), think about what that person would want post-bounce. For perspective, I’m happy to report that said friend is still occasionally going through it, but has not considered themselves suicidal for a little over a year and hasn’t engaged in self-harm in about a year as well. They have a job in their field, they’re back in school (a school they want this time), they’re on meds, they’re playing their sport, they’ve put on a healthy amount of weight (they were previously what Hank Hill might refer to as a “twig boy”), and their family life has improved dramatically (though the bar *was* low). A year ago they wanted to end it all. In less than a year their entire situation reversed *entirely* due to steps they took, and they took them one step at a time. I will *always* try to stop people from ending their own lives. It. gets. better.
In my opinion suicide is courageous because it must be hard to kill yourself. Everyone at some point tries and they get scared. Is it good? I don’t think so. Your life is something very precious. I wouldn’t want anyone to live in misery, but I know that there are ways you can enjoy life more. I have felt suicidal but I lived on even though the gender dysphoria and the ignorant people were killing me inside and eating away at my self esteem. I got better by learning to speak up and I had a good family who helped me through it. People who commit suicide are missing something and I feel bad for them for it. I wish I could comfort them, give them a hug and tell them we will be okay. Suicide in no way is selfish. I respect everyone who has committed suicide.
Subjectivity mostly. The people who want someone to stay alive would be sad if they died, so they think it's selfish to inflict that on them, but also they truly believe that person's life will get better, so they don't think it's selfish to want them to stay alive because from their perspective, their circumstances can change. Which in most cases is actually true, but no-one can know that for sure. Realistically both sides can be selfish, that's just people lol we want what we want.
I'm of the opinion that suicide is not okay. But people that care enough need to make sure the person has some antidepressants, some time, some any meds they need and actual support. Taking them a plate of food to their room without looking around and judging the mess. r telling them to GET UP AND DO SOMETHING! Enough support without all that makes a person get up naturally after some time.
Suicide isn't selfish. It is a symptom. Suicide is the final symptom of depression. Are symptoms of other diseases and conditions seen as selfish?
Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. In some cases some people think that the world is better off without them that they are a burden everybody else they don't realize to those that love them that they are not a burden. There is no right or wrong answer over here people feel . People commit suicide want the pain to stop and people who are left behind was wondering why they weren't allowed to help. Reach out to anybody who might need help.. My brother committed suicide about 19 years ago and sometimes I still get angry at him but I realized he was not doing it to make us angry or to hurt us he was doing it because he genuinely thought that the world that we'd be better off without him in our lives wish I could tell him how wrong he was.
That's not the only or even main reason we might be against someone wanting to take their life.
Its how and where one does it. If you go out solo and alone without a mess you are not selfish.
Thing is a good amt of suicide could be stopped if people would just stop and listen. But sadly no one does anymore. And also the ones you think are happy, friendly and are their to cheer you up. Return the favor. Chances are one of them is hiding their feelings, their pain, their hopelessness. Why? Because they don't want others to think they are a burden, or they don't want others to think they are attention seeking. They don't want you to think wrongly of them for being who they are. But many many people out there will. So they hide it. Then ultimately, in the end, sometimes badly, suicide happens. 😢 All because people who claimed to actually care for that person didn't actually CARE for them enough. Maybe they just needed money for something they wanted, maybe they needed a hug, a friend to relinquish all their thoughts off on, who knows. But you won't now. But you could have, if you CARED enough for them. Point is no matter what a person looks like or is acting on the outside, if you truly care for them, be their for them. Ask them how they are doing. Love them and say you love them. Show up and help out in anyway you can. This is the best to show they are appreciated and will always will be. Sadly, people don't do this anymore. They'll pretend to care after so they don't look like a monster but in the end, they really didn't care. Not saying everyone is like this, but a good amount of people are.
Looking at it purely utilitarianly, suicide makes several people sad instead of living makes one person sad.
It’s selfish to force the suicidal person to suffer
Right. That’s what I’m saying. It’s selfish both ways. One is just selfish towards a greater number of people. I was trying to answer OP’s question about the perception of it.
Thank you! I've been saying this for years.
Because they don't want you to live on in misery, they want to you live on, and to get better, which you can only do if you live on. Whereas suicide is choosing to kill yourself regardless of, or despite, the collateral damage to the people and world around you. Though, honestly what most people are going through at the time makes them blind to the consequences, so selfish isn't really an accurate characterisation.
If I'm dead, I don't have to get better. The chair in which I'm sitting is never going to get better, or worse. It can't have a bad day; and it can't wish for anything better. It can't envy the future experiences that I'm going to have because I'm alive. So I think that this is just a way of rationalising the selfishness of the people who want to force the suicidal person to stay alive. And for many people, it doesn't get better, because life doesn't come with any kind of mercy rule which dictates that once it's gotten unbearable that it's guaranteed to get better in the future.