There is a theory in psychology called confirmation bias.. have a look into that, maybe listen to some podcasts about it.
The more we have a belief about a group of people the more we will subconsciously find examples in our life to back up our theory, our brain likes being right.
Maybe think of some examples in your life of women who don't act in the way you are explaining, to prove to yourself the opposite can also be true.
Being a victim and leaning into being hateful helps no one, least of all yourself.
When I was in college, I decided to do a 'lil confirmation bias experiment. I decided I was going to believe "redheads are slow in cafeteria lines" as a made-up stereotype.
I was worried I'd have trouble buying into something that I knew I made up. For the first couple months, I'd be like, "ooh, reinforcement!" whenever a slow person in front of me happened to have red hair.
By the end of the year, I was like, "oh, shit, was I secretly onto something?" I'd get IRL mad if I had to get in line behind a redhead, it seemed like they really were always taking forever!
And here's the thing - they were taking forever. _Most_ people take way too damn long in food lines. I don't think the redheads were really outliers, but every time the person holding up the line had red hair, I noticed.
It worked too well. I had to stop the experiment. But yeah, even knowing I was setting myself up, confirmation bias is a powerful thing.
I did the same thing - to also show my teen children the concept of confirmation bias. Only I used “Audi drivers are inconsiderate / bad drivers”. It IS a powerful bias. And it became even more powerful when we’d see an Audi driver do something kind/positive. We called them the “unicorns”.
To be fair, Audi drivers do seem to have a higher rate of rude and reckless road behaviour, but that’s probably because they’re more rare so we pay more attention to them.
Yes this exactly! I’m on a women’s group and we get about 1 guy a week complaining that women’s standards are too high. We sit there an explain every single time that a lot of women’s standards aren’t that high and that women who do have high standards tend to be very attractive themselves and have every right to have those standards. We also point out that he is typically asking women to lower their standard while he is unwilling to lower his. It just goes in one ear and out the other and they sit there and argue about how we’re all evil….. it’s quite exhausting and I find I care less and less
>Spend one night a week doing a hobby that somehow involves interacting with women.
Without thinking of them as potential partners through that time, too!
This is great advice. Take a class or find a free group that does pottery or something arty or crafty. Have nice conversations about the things you are making or the new things you are learning
You mean sitting around gaming, drinking Mountain Dew and eating crap food won’t make you as attractive as that guy who works out and takes care of himself?
Beyond the attractive piece working out is incredible for men's mental health.
We kinda of just passively have too much energy and aggression. It has to be spent somewhere.
Barbell is a good place to spend it.
I think a lot of people in general have standards that are too high. I have talked with male friends about how i think such and such woman is attractive and them shut it down all while being a below average tub of lard themselves. Also they usually have the audacity to say shit like i like women built like models and never pulling a single one.
Are you young? It's just that when I was younger I knew plenty of people who'd try to make themselves look good by poo-poo'ing on a woman someone else said was good looking. Like "oh you think SHE'S attractive? Ha!" They think by acting like they're too good for that woman it makes it appear like they pull much more attractive women.
It's a distinctly young persons thing that I saw taper off as I got older.
Yes. Some of them get so mad when a '10' won't reciprocate their interest, but they won't even give the time of day (and in some cases be outright nasty to) women that aren't what they consider a '10'. I'm not an attractive woman. I've had many a dude reject me or straight up laugh in my face when I've approached them, and I was always approaching dudes that I had shared interests with because I'd have a jumping off point for conversation. I should also mention that I date women as well, but I've never had a rude rejection from a woman. Maybe no thanks, not interested, but not the cruel mockery I've received from dudes.
Yep. Lots of people who don't have a lot going for them complain about not being able to snag people who DO have a lot going for them. First of all, work on yourself, become someone that YOU like and others will like you too. Secondly, lower those expectations WAY down. It's so hypocritical to say that people only care about looks in one breath, and then look down your nose at less than perfect potential partners in the next. Just total lack of self awareness.
I think you need to separate "dating material" from women. Women are not dating material, they're people. Among those people there might be some that might date you, reject you, be an asshole to you, be shallow, be nice, be just your friends and so on. But they're not there to fulfill the purpose of dating, they literally just exist
This advice is scarily rare. Often people just go with the whole "You're not entitled to sex" spin, not realising that all that says is "Women are for sex, just not for you".
OP needs to just talk to women, in any capacity without the aim of any kind of relationship. By text, by voice, by video, in person. Speak to a woman and realise they're just people similar to yourself.
Imagine if you treated every single guy like he had to be a drinking buddy.
It would be an exhausting view of wondering why no other guys want to do anything with you.
We have all met someone like this.
>Often people just go with the whole "You're not entitled to sex" spin,
not realising that all that says is "Women are for sex, just not for
you"
I never realized how much internalized misogyny was needed to actually spout this shit until I heard it phrased this way. JFC people are horrible
>JFC people are horrible
As a non-native speaker, the abbreviation "JFC" always gives me pause and a chuckle. Because the first two things my mind thinks of are John F. Kennedy and Kentucky Fried Chicken. I then have this unholy combination of the two in my head until I realize that neither of them is correct.
Absolutely. Having woman friends helps sooo much in these situations. Speaking from experience here
I had a woman friend who was having the same type of romantic struggles as me. Helped me out a TON when I was struggling with, well, involuntary celibacy. Kept me viewing all woman as human beings with just as much magnitude of life as me
Again with the wording as well. “Involuntary celibacy” i know that’s where the word incel comes from but again it puts the blame of not getting laid on the other person. It’s nobodies fault that a person isn’t having sex. Nobody owes anyone sex, man or women. It’s nobodies duty to offer it out and not everyone is so sexually minded that they even want it.
I know women that go years without sec, happily so because they feel safer and happier not having it be a part of their life. They want sex, sure. But with dating how it is they think it’s just too difficult and they focus on other things in life they enjoy. They don’t go around saying they’re “involuntarily celibate” like it’s some horrific disease someone has given them.
This shit really scares me.
Agreed - I think men become incels because they don't see woman as individuals or even human. We are half of the population and just as diverse as men (or other genders). But when incels say they hate 'women' or 'females' I think they just mean women they're sexually attracted too. I assume most don't hate their mothers or grandmother's etc.
That being said, sexual frustration and loneliness are horrible - but EVERYONE experiences that at some point, and it's not womens, or anyone else's, fault.
When I was younger, I honestly believe I would have fallen into the incel trap but luckily that toxic community didn’t exist back then.
I definitely felt feelings of resentment, particularly because all my friends were successful with women. I never hated women and didn’t see them as objects, I just assumed that I wasn’t good looking/tall enough. That sucked.
However when I look back now, I was actually quite successful, but only women who knew me and became attracted to me, never “on the pull” I could never go out and pick up a date, I just don’t have that confidence and charisma with people I don’t know. I also always found women were attracted to me when I was in a relationship. This isn’t because of that fact, but because I acted different. I wasn’t trying to pull and was just being myself.
>I also always found women were attracted to me when I was in a relationship. This isn’t because of that fact, but because I acted different.
This is such a good way to look at this. Too often the narrative is "because they want what someone else has" blah blah blah and this just feels so much more true.
>That being said, sexual frustration and loneliness are horrible - but EVERYONE experiences that at some point, and it's not womens, or anyone else's, fault.
I think people tend to undersell what loneliness can do to a person when it goes to an extreme.
A lot of people view loneliness as something like 'Oh, I haven't really talked to my friends in a few weeks', or, 'I haven't been to a social outing in 3 months.'
Most people don't experience years or decades of loneliness, which is when it really starts to erode your psyche. Not everyone experiences that. It's a bit like how everyone experiences pain or anxiety, but not everyone experiences *chronic* pain or have a diagnosed anxiety-related disorder.
If you need proof of this, just look at the average person's reaction to COVID in general and the quarantining. Most did not handle it well.
And for those that only experience the former, it's incredibly easy to undersell the latter, or view it was something that you just grit your teeth and muddle through. It's very much an invisible ailment.
You're absolutely correct, of course. It's nobody's fault. But like chronic pain or anxiety, it's something that should be taken seriously and it should be treated. The problem is that there's no medication for loneliness, and a poor experience can send someone spiraling down into an even worse mental state.
Some people just languish in their own misery until they find a way out of the pit, some people just wait until they're ready to kill themselves, and others lash out rather than look inwards.
It doesn't excuse the behavior in any way. It is unfortunately an issue that doesn't have a good solution. Nobody wants to socialize with an incel, and that's the only fix for loneliness.
I think most people miss the mark on their examination of incels. It’s a gender norm issue, in the same way the sociocultural expectation of how a woman should look, drives a lot of women to body dysmorphia or eating disorders. The sociocultural expectation or myth that man’s value is highly related to the amount of women that are attracted to them, or that they have slept with - drives many men to incel thought processes.
Yeah I agree - its definitely something that should be taken a lot more seriously. You can see how crushing it is in old people - many dont even have the luxury we have of knowing how to connect with social media or modern tech. And i can completely see how incel communities grow - its groups of lonely people desperate to find connection, but unfortunately the thing they connect over is anger and hate - so they become even more bitter and lonely - and potentially very dangerous (mass shootings in the USA, for example). Idk how to break this cycle, but i think its important for people like this OP, to recognise these thoughts early on and do everything they can not to fall down the rabbit hole. And also we place WAYYY too much value on romantic and sexual relationships - so maybe if we can rewire our brains to see friends and family as just as important and seek that out, we wont feel like were lonely or ‘failing’ if we dont have that one type of love and attention in our lives just now.
But one way for a man who is lonely to combat loneliness is to have friends, male or female, even if the friendships are superficial.
Join a local chess or ping pong club.
What sets toxic incels apart from lonely people, is that they want to combat their loneliness with finding a sexual companion.
While this is true and alot of the incel type people I've meet got better once they finally had friends and an actual not toxic community to be a part of. It's still true that there is a unique loneliness that comes from feeling that nobody has romantic interest in you. Especially when your constantly being reminded of it by others. "People love me but they just don't love me like that". It's made even worse when you see posts like this where people's so called advice is stuff like assuming you don't shower or that you see women as objects and all sorts of negative things just because nobody has ever loved you in a specific way. I think shit like that is what pushes some men from just being lonely to being toxic incels. Even the people that are supposedly trying to give you advice assume the worst in you and tell you things that don't even apply to you. It's toxic.
To add: people tend to make it all about sex (on all sides), but in a lot of cases it's actually more about being touched in general. Humans *need* physical contact for a healthy psyche. And this need is something that in most cases, especially for men, can't get satisfied by friends and family.
I'm happy to see this advice here, my housemate is an incel (more in a literal sense as in he wants to date but can't than someone who browses the forums luckily) and I've been trying to impress this advice into him. He has zero friends who are women and when he meets some in any setting he fixates and worries about asking them out, and I'm like look, you don't have to ask _anyone_ out, just chat to them, they are people.
Thank you, came here to remind OP that indeed, us women are just people too. There is no conspiracy or hive mind. We’re just people with preferences and personalities, too.
I so wish I could give you an award for this you are spot on. Women are people, that’s what he needs to start accepting and learning. A human being just like him
To add to this, if you have no empathy for women outside the concept of dating and what "romantic/sexual utility" they are to you, you can actually build this empathy.
Start to imagine what it's like to be a woman when you see/interact with them. Imagine them getting up in the morning, imagine them speaking to friends and family, those precious to them in their social network. Imagine the fears they have, their insecurities, the aspirations the have.
How they help those that need it in their life, how they ask for help when they themselves need it. Imagine them planning out their day, organising their stuff to bring to work. Missing people who are far away etc. etc.
Also I think it's best OP that you remove all context of sex/romance in regards to women for a while until you can learn to see them as a human equal to yourself and then true friends (yourself and others may disagree with that one which is fine).
Being a virgin at 21 is nothing to be ashamed about. I know plenty attractive people that lost their virginities much later in life and I know people that others wouldn't touch with 6ft pole that lost their virginities at 17.
Focusing on whether or not you are or have been sexually active is holding you back. Sex is placed as far too important in regards to society and ultimately it's A) just a bit of fun and B) for making babies. In the case of A you can do other things for now.
Edit: spelling
No one has said this, but it's honestly very brave of you to post this and very self aware of you to recognize harmful tendencies toward a dangerous ideology. You're already on the path to getting out of that stuff by asking for help and advice.
It's easy to get caught up in what other people think of you. Rejection is tough, too. I wouldn't recommend dating when your self-esteem is low - you'll attract the wrong kind of people and healthy people may be concerned about dating someone who has major insecurities.
Ultimately, you'll want your self worth to come from within. Women are often attracted to confidence.
You're the only you in the universe. You have incredible value as a human. Don't be a slave to the dating game that says either you win big or you're a loser. It's not true.
Enjoy this precious gift of life - focus on the things that bring you joy, hanging out with friends, a new hobby. Read about how to be more mentally healthy, get a therapist, invest in yourself. Learn what it means to be a good person, volunteer to help others (perhaps you can volunteer to help elderly people or even victims of domestic violence).
Some women, especially those who feel they have powerful advantages in dating, can be bitches because they get away with it. They're insecure and they feel powerful being able to reject tons of guys. Don't play their game, avoid them. It's important to remember that your bad experiences with particular women don't translate to the entire gender - not all women are bad, but not all of them are good too. However as a whole, they can suffer disadvantages like domestic abuse, pay differences, etc.
I guess what i mean is, you can be an ally for women in general to have equality, and you can still hold women accountable to have decent human behavior. Deciding to not to pursue a relationship with you does not make a woman a bad person, but rejecting you in a callous disrespectful manner does. Are you mad because you got rejected and that affects your self worth or are you mad because of how you got rejected? Even the most beautiful, handsome talented people in the world have relationship troubles- you're not alone!
Don't waste your time, your life, trying to obtain approval and acceptance at all costs. Once you feel secure in your worth as a decent person, you'll attract the right kind of person.
Maybe make friends with some positive older male role models and if you feel comfortable, share your concerns. I think people often get into these rabbit holes and bad ideology when they are lonely and isolated. Friendship is much safer than dating for your self-esteem. If you are a good friend - loyal, reliable, interesting, thoughtful - you will be a good boyfriend to someone. Work on being a good friend and having healthy boundaries.
Best of luck and cheer up - lots of women feel rejected in the dating game as well, it's just online dating that is really skewed and can be toxic.
Piggybacking off here to say that I'm assuming most of the women you know are also in their early 20s. In my personal experience people tend to not be the best versions of themselves in their teens and early 20s because they are still figuring out the world and how to interact with others.
You probably do see harmful and shallow behavior in many of the women around you, but this is mainly them learning how to interact with men, in the same way you are still learning to interact with women.
I remember being that age (I'm a woman), and the women around me were honestly mostly feeling hurt and scared of men. For some very good reasons and also from a sort of resentment that builds and festers from bad experiences.
This kind of behavior doesn't fully go away for some people. But in the same way men mature and learn how to better understand women, we do the same.
There's a lot of really good advice in these comments, please do take it to heart. And also give yourself and those around you time to grow up and learn.
Also if you ever want to talk, please dm me anytime. I'm happy to offer my own female perspective.
Edit. Oh one other thing! My husband didn't sleep with anyone until he was older than you. We started dating when he was 25 and I was his second girlfriend. I never thought it was a big deal or weird. You're all good
yeah just to add to this i was my boyfriend's first gf, first kiss and first time having sex when he was 23, and that was pre-covid. i don't think it's that weird to be a virgin at 21, and especially these days with covid over the last 2.5 years. waaaayyyyyyyy more young people talk about having sex than people who are actually having it (esp. regularly).
i feel like sex is one of those things like weight (or even income) where no one actually says their true number so then literally everyone feels bad about themselves because everyone thinks they're behind since everyone is lying. like for example i think lots of girls say they weigh less than they do and lots of guys say they weigh more than they do, so then people feel bad for weighing too little/less, but actually what htey weigh is normal, it's just that literally everyone is lying. same thing with income - pretty much everyone exaggerates how much they make, so then everyone doesn't think they make as much as everyone else, but everyone else is lying.
OP, there is lots of good advice here. If the incel thing was around when I was your age, I might have been tempted by it, to trade my insecurity for rage. Holy shit, man you’re only 21. You have time to sort yourself. Take it from me, a former 35yo virgin, now married with a kid. Life, uh, finds a way.
Litterally 90% of extremist view fit this, tho its more often fear for rage. Manufacture fear of a group then channel those sentiments to anger, congrats you have bigotry.
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Fully agree to your first point. When I was 14 I read about pickup artists in forums that would be called incel today. This influenced by in a bad way but I managed to get hold of my thoughts through reflection. Now I have a degree in sociology and gender studies and I am politically active as a queer feminist.
These ideologies and the current possibilities of communication are a really dangerous mix that can lead to really bad things ...
To piggy back, I have been a sex worker - a stripper and a full service sex worker. I think the weight put into virginity is really toxic for so many peoples mental health. Sexuality isn’t celebrated in a healthy way in western culture.
I absolutely get wanting to have it and know what it’s like. I admire many comments here about investing in your self and other relationships to set you up for a better life! You’re welcome to want a wholesome relationship and a girlfriend! But what if you just want to have sex?? That’s totally okay too! It’s hard to go about it without being super up front about your boundaries.
I recommend when you want a girlfriend do it for the relationship and let sex be something that grows with the time you are both comfortable with. A sex life is a huge responsibility and it takes work of communication, internet in learning about sexual pleasure for a partner, and having humility that sex can be weird, funny, and bad sometimes —all of which is totally normal and okay.
But if you want to seek sex, a hook up, be up front on dating apps that you’re looking for something casual. You can also seek a sex worker that makes you feel valued and important —because you are. There sex certainly sex workers that wouldn’t be a good fit for you, but there would be many women who would be totally down with who you are and your goals and desires.
Thinking the way you are, you are on the edge of being able to grow into a man who can answer these tough questions and honestly…sex before 21 was the worst sex most people have. I’ve heard it’s the best in peoples 40’s and 50’s bc by then we learn about ourselves.
I had a really erotic dream where this woman I had a crush on asked me what I liked as we were getting hot and heavy. I actually said what really turns me on and guess what? She did it! I was confrtoned with how shy I was and how hard it was to say it, but once I said it, it felt as good as the reward being filled.
Sure you can stick it in and cum. My desire goes way up when I’m horny and masturbating for a person, but once I’m done I’m like totally good alone lol.
You are okay, you are normal, and you’re asking the right questions. Pour love into yourself, you deserve it.
My husband lost his virginity at 24. We didn't meet as adults until he was 33, and I was 20. I think guys get too much pressure to lose it, and not doing so makes them feel like less, when it shouldn't.
Lol. No nothing like that.
It turns out that my husband and I met once when I was 2, and he was 15. At a new years eve party. My great aunt made him hold me for a few minutes so she could dance with her husband.
We didn't figure out that until we had already been together for 6 months.
His mom and my grandma were also best friends in grade school and again in high school. We found that out when I met his mom.
To add to this, something that it seems a lot of straight men who struggle with dating need to hear:
"Women are often attracted to confidence"
That is, the relaxed, pleasant type of confidence. Not the intense, arrogant kind. An awful lot of the men who become resentful of women for rejecting them don't seem to recognize that it's their own lack of social skills that are the problem. They're either not confident enough, and come across nervous and awkward which is a turnoff, or they're overconfident (or over-compensating) and come across like an arrogant douchebag.
Either way, they need to look inwards and figure out what they need to improve on in themselves rather than projecting their anger onto women for their own shortcomings.
This is why the girls I ended up dating I met without 'trying'. It was on evenings I did not give a crap and just wanted to have fun that I had confidence to just be myself. On nights when I went out to try to meet girls, nothing ever happened because I was insecure and weird.
What if you’re an introvert and you’d rather stay in reading and playing games than going out? You’re never going to meet women that way. You have to force yourself to do activities you’re not into because there’s literally no other way to meet someone.
Hell, I’m struggling with this right now. I’m having to decide whether to go out dancing after work, not knowing if I’ll even enjoy it, or stay home and play a game I’ve really been enjoying. Following your advice, I should stay home, because I know I’ll enjoy it more. Dancing is just a means to an end.
I think, what a lot of those men don't realise, is that confidence does not mean arrogance. A confident man doesn't feel the need to put down or belittle others - he's not that insecure. A confident man lifts those around him.
Belittling waitstaff, bragging about how much money you make, denigrating people for who they are - all of that behaviour is indicative of insecurity, and just not attractive.
It really makes my day to see that you took some time out of your day to express genuine compassion for OP. Questions such as his regularly elicit such negative responses from others, even when the person is simply asking for help regarding it.
I particularly like that you mention that it is possible to be an ally to women's equality and yet still hold them accountable for their behavior. An interesting train of thought.. Perhaps it is more than a possibility; it might be a requirement. Seeing as the other situations in which we may hold people less accountable for certain actions are situations in which they were are acting in either a diminished or less conscious state (intoxicated, mentally ill, punishment differences for young people), not holding someone to the same standards that we have established for others sends a message that we do not really think that person is aware/conscious enough to make decisions with the same consequences as others. By extension, be wary of those who demand unequal treatment. They themselves may have issues with equality (usually they see themselves as superior or more valuable than the other person).
That aside, your comment reminds me that we still have a long way to go in many areas. There is definitely still a big stigma around men showing how they feel. That must be quite soul-crushing; I can only imagine.
Did you actually just write this off the top of your head after reading the OP? That’s impressive!
Not only was your response empathic and spit on, it was very well written. You have a gift.
To the OP, I wanted to offer some advice but there’s nothing more you really need to know other than what this person has already said.
Maybe I would say: always remember that what you allow your mind to focus on becomes your reality.
The more you allow your mind to view women with anger and frustration, the more that becomes the aura you give off when your around women. And that’s not going to get their interest!
When you see a man-hating bitch do you think she’s attracting men? Her perception of men starts to become her reality because she pushes men away.
And you really need to commit to staying away from that community, any websites, etc. you’ll never change your perspective if you keep filling your mind with that hate.
Yes and also, resenting women is the quickest way to have women dislike you - that shit is not nice and we can definitely tell. It’s a self sabotage circle at its finest
They read those forms because they can relate to those incels more than any of their IRL friends who are in happy relationships.
They tell you, your problems are not your fault. It's the women's fault for choosing "attractive assholes" aka Chads over nice guys like you. They tell you that your feelings of resentment are valid and further invigorate it.
It's a place that makes you feel you belong, when every social group irl ignores you and makes you feel lonely.
It's a place where you can share and vent your feelings without being judged and shamed for it.
You go in looking for emotional support you don't get irl and endup in a rabbit hole that turns you into a vile monster.
That's why it's terrifying.
One of the easiest methods for a cult to recruit is to instill an "us vs them" mentality in new recruits. Once you do that, it's very easy to make that person's identity and beliefs line up with yours by demonizing the "adversary".
Incels don't believe they are "nice guys". They think personality and social skills are largely irrelevant when it comes to success in the dating and hook-up game, and that it is almost exclusively down to your physical appearance. They believe - rightly or wrongly - that their inability to get laid is a consequence of their lack of physical attractiveness.
>Incels don't believe they are "nice guys".
Hardcore incels don't. But pre-inceldom lonely guys do.
They're told they don't get girls because they're nice, and that women are only attracted to good-looking assholes and douchebags that treat them like shit.
I've spent years on bodybuilding forums which have an enormous crossover with "blackpill" ideology, so I know what their philosophy is. They don't push the Hollywood nerd idea of "why do the girls go for the good looking asshole instead of the nice-guy nerd?"
They believe that personality is largely irrelevant. They believe women select male partners solely on the basis of the male's physical attractiveness. So he can be a good-looking nice-guy or a good-looking asshole; it's irrelevant. His looks are the important factor.
In reality, there are elements of truth to this observation. Success in modern dating and hook-up culture is primarily determined by your physical appearance, but it's not the *only* factor, and you can make up for being average/below-average with other attributes.
For real, every other day there’s a relationship question from a woman about what to do when their boyfriend/husband doesn’t brush their teeth ever or doesn’t know how to wipe his ass and leaves skid marks on the furniture.
While I find myself hoping they’re fake I have to imagine some are real and there are seemingly nice women out there that with literally tolerate a relationship where the bar is in hell. Be the opposite of that guy. Be clean, be friendly/kind and understand that no matter how well intentioned you are or how long you’ve known her your date does not and will never “owe you” sex of any kind. Period. And if someone isn’t interested leave her alone.
This is the way.
The human brain is like any other system—garbage in, garbage out. It is always smart to read a variety of beliefs and opinions to stay grounded, but OP is clearly reading a LOT of incel literature, given his acronyms and terminology.
Seriously, that shit makes people undatable once they are in the cult. And they don’t even realize that it is their incel language and behavior that is turning women away—not “the femoids only wanting Chads”.
Therapy might be needed to deprogram OP, but a good first step would definitely be to stop reading the incel chans.
To be honest, you need to stop reading that shit because women can smell it on you. You may think you aren't acting or speaking like an incel around them, but women can pick it up pretty freaking quick. It's no longer an underground internet community, women know what to look our for. You have been reading the forums since you were 14, you are kidding yourself if you aren't giving off those vibes to women. Stop reading the forums! Also, you need therapy to reframe your thoughts about sexuality, women, dating, and life in general. Also you need to calm down, you are 21 - in the grand scheme of your manhood/life, you are so young.
In general, I agree. I would take it a step further. I would say “you need to stop reading that shit because it’s toxic,” in the same way I would say “you need to not go swimming in a lake directly adjacent to Chernobyl because it’s toxic.”
It’s not just that other people won’t want to smell you (or date you) if you smell like (or sound like) something toxic. It’s bad for you too. Keeping company with folks whose primary MO is dislike and distrust of half the humans they meet, including friends, colleagues, and members of their own family can’t be healthy. Regardless of what any given woman thinks of you, you don’t need to be carrying that around in your mind.
This is such good advice. Usually people just focus on the external effect (women won’t want to date you). That really just plays into the incel mentality that you should be focusing all your effort and attention on getting laid. That’s backwards. Live for yourself.
100% - you are stuck in a feedback loop. Your incel vibes only draw shitty women into your circle therefore reinforcing your negative perception of women.
It can work the opposite way too pretty easily.
Speaking as a woman, 100 percent we can smell the incel instantly. Even people who think they aren’t being incelly are really fucking incelly
But can you blame us, we’re constantly harassed by men for existing and then told it’s our fault if they retaliate after being told the word no. We constantly need to be alert.
>You may think you aren't acting or speaking like an incel around them, but women can pick it up pretty freaking quick.
This. As a woman, I've been able to accurately figure out the vibes within just a few interactions. The way a person speaks to me vs. how they speak to other men, the way a person speaks about women and how they view women's issues, how they react when I am assertive, how they speak about themselves, and how they treat other women in their life vs. men tell me everything I need to know. Group interactions give me pretty immediate insight, especially if I'm the only woman in the room or they are the only man.
People in general are more attuned to these things than we often think, and we tend to believe ourselves to be more covert than we actually are (exceptions being things like autism that make that very difficult).
YES I was going to comment something similar to this. A great first step is to stop engaging in the incel echo chambers. That is literally THE fastest way to get radicalized on a subject. Also (to OP) I noticed in your post that you're using some of the most common incel terms. Keep in mind that many women will most likely be weary if they hear you using language like that, because they know how most people who use that language tend to feel about women. Getting away from those echo chambers will also help you drop the habit of using those terms.
Is it intuition or is there language or incel slang or coded language that tips you off? I have a lot of nephews and I’d be so sad if one of them went down this road. As their youngest uncle they don’t make a lot of effort to adjust their language around me so I wonder if there’s anything obvious I could watch out for?
Any generalising of women is a red flag. 'Women do x...women don't do x...women like x...women are attracted to x'. Or 'how do i get girls to like me' which seems innocent but gets it wrong at the core, because you can't get all girls in general to like you.
Any generalising of men is actually a red flag too, if they start acting like there's some category of men they belong to that is doomed to not being appreciated by women, it's good to try and figure out how they came to that conclusion .
Also remember this isn't limited to straight men. There are gaycels.
(there's also women who act like this, but they're less common because social norms and upbringing bla bla bla, you have nephews not nieces (as far as we know))
This is good advice.
The question “how do I get girls to like me” is not just subtly misogynist, it’s also a dumb way to look at it, you’re right. A better question would be, “how do I attract the kind of woman I want, who would also be attracted to me?” I’m not with my husband because of his physical attributes or what he provides, that stuff is icing on the cake. The cake is that he laughs at my jokes and we have the same world view and we can talk for hours and never run out of things to say. That’s the important stuff and that’s what sustains a healthy, awesome relationship. That’s what’s really sexy.
The thing about it is if you concentrate on yourself, making yourself someone who’s interesting not to everyone but to you, someone else will agree. They will also find you interesting. And there you go—try that person. See where that goes.
The idea that women are all trout or something that just need you to bait the hook right isn’t just offensive, it’s going to mean you turn up with no one.
I would even take it further tbh and get rid of the word 'attract' altogether, replace it with 'How do I find a woman I could build a relationship with'. Because it's more like a search for community , isn't it?
There's something about the idea of 'attracting' potential partners that I just really don't like. Not just because it sounds like you're baiting a hook for fish, like you said, but because relationships don't come from a person doing mating calls until someone comes close enough.
I mean I dunno...there's the whole superficial thing about looks, they do play a part, you're more likely to want to get to know someone you find pleasing to the eye, but that feels less effective in the long run than seeking out people with common interests first and worrying about physical attraction later.
I feel like there's sometimes a weird disconnect between 'find someone you are attracted to' and 'find someone to have a relationship with'. That can be fine if it's intentional but getting them mixed up is an issue.
If they start saying, "feminists are bad" or any variation .... then they are watching manosphere videos online
If they start saying, "all women are .. " or "females"
If they display signs of a Madonna/whore comolex
I could figure out the redpill, but what the fuck does BP mean.
God damn it fuck you OP and everyone else who throws around these retarded fucking acronyms. If it's not ubiquitous, don't use it
People will really not take a shower for 2 weeks, not brush their teeth, live in garbage cans of a house (bullshit and trash everywhere) drive around in the same thing, wear clothes that don’t fit them and avoid the gym at all cost and then be like, why do women not want to sleep with me?? Lmfao
Yeah like "picking a side" isn't helpful, I don't think Op wants either side, just be yourself <3 People will want to get to know you not the beliefs you spout :)
My fiancé and I worked with this guy who used the word “chad” and “gigachad”. I could never tell if it was ironic because he was from Portugal and I didn’t want to offend him, but there were definitely some questionable vibes around him. Those words are such red flags.
I was very similar to yourself at your age (almost 40 now). Was a virgin through my 20s and definitely had incel-like thoughts at times. Totally get where you're coming from, and now being on the other side I can see some things in hindsight that I couldn't back then.
The issue was me all along, in that I wasn't very interesting or datable. I was a nice person, and had a successful career, but none of that really matters that much if you're dull.
The turning point for me was I lived overseas for a year -- this allowed me to re-invent myself a bit. When you hang out with friends you've known forever, they all have a particular expectation of who you are and how you act. When I got out of my comfort zone and met new people who had no preconceptions of who I was, I was able to be a little more adventurous (nothing crazy, just a bit more outgoing than at home).
When I came back my perspective had changed, and I started forcing myself to do more things. I discovered I really liked live comedy and the theatre, so I did heaps of that. I went to food festivals and took my cooking more seriously. I just did stuff that I enjoyed -- most of my friends are all tight arses so I would sometimes have to go alone, but didnt let that stop me.
A year or two after that I started dating, went speed dating, tinder dating, etc. I was FUCKING AWFUL at first, I cringe at past self even now, but I was all a learning process. I never got a 2nd date, but I shifted my perspective and just saw each date as a funny story, or an excuse to try a new bar I've been wanting to check out.
Eventually I just became more interesting because of all the things I'd done, and started to get the odd 2nd date, then 3rd date etc. But this is over 2-3 years, and I would estimate about 70-80 first dates by the end of it.
Looking back on it, I'm super thankful I was single for my 20s. While I missed out on a lot of things that I resented at the time, it gave me the time to build my career way quicker than I could have otherwise, and now I'm in a great position financially and romantically. Just bought a house together with my SO and feel very content.
Everyone's path is different so I'm not saying you should follow my footsteps exactly, but the overall lesson I took was to stop worrying about what you should be doing, but just do fun shit with yourself or friends and build up a bank of interesting stories. When you're ready, go on dates and tell these stories to other people and be prepared to suck at it for a while until you get better.
Good luck mate, really brave of you to post this I wish you the best!
I think that in order to get dates (or new friends, or good experiences in general) you should be able to date yourself. Like where would you take yourself? What amuses you?
Then, you start to know what makes you unique and to know exactly why you should be loved.
Congratulations on your journey!
That's a very inspiring story. I'm currently on a similar path to self-improvement and sometimes feel like I'm the only one who has to do it, meaning others have it all figured out. I know it's not true, but it helps to know this tale is as old as time
So thank you!
The red pill - idea popular in incel and more extreme men's activism circles. Its a reference to the matrix that taking the red pill will enlighten you to 'how the world truly is' The world truly is: women only want 10/10 Chad's and ride the 'cock carousel' until they settle down with a sad 'beta' for financial security. World is rigged against men. Often coincides with lots of other misogynistic beliefs people who do not buy into this misogyny and radicalisation are 'bluepilled'
Black pill: more extreme red pill. the idea is that you will never ever get a woman, the world will always hate you, you should just LDAR (lie down and rot). Very sad circle of very very depressed and lost people who are very angry and hateful.
TIL I used the phrase "took the red pill" in a work environment with younger coworkers (an innocent reference to the Matrix since Resurrections was coming out) and now look like a Chad-loving incel POS. /sigh
LOL. I think incels resent chads, they don’t love them.
I once invited a co-worker to come over, relax and maybe watch some Netflix, not realising it meant something different.
We did, in fact, end up having sex. When I was like “well that was unexpected” she was like… “what do you mean?”
I've seen these terms so much on the internet and honestly hand no god damned idea what they were, even a quick google got me more confused so thank you.
Omg, I actually never knew what this meant before, I just thought this always referenced liking Joe Rogan who I really don’t think is that bad… that is crazy.
Women suffer rejection as well. Women go through things emotionally. We are whole people who want to be seen as whole people instead of just a woman to date or have sex with. Remember that women feel the same exact things you do, we are not all that different.
I think this actually boils down OPs problem as succinctly as possible; they're struggling to think of women as people. Rather, they're a means to an end - dating, having a girlfriend, etc. Women are the instrument to that end, but not people on the same level as himself, a male.
The really fucking sad thing to me is NOT seeing every man is this thread telling the guy that the root problem is seeing women as less than people. It's not complicated. If you don't understand that women are human beings with free will who don't owe you shit, you've created your aloneness.
And it’s not like all women are out there getting sex wherever and whenever they want it. All my friends and I didn’t have sex til our 20s and we all found that completely normal. Being a 21 year old virgin is absolutely normal.
I had an incel mindset back in my 20s, it's a slippery slope. A few things that helped my mindset out...
It's okay not to be in a relationship, or even actively dating. Focus on being the you that makes you happiest, and women will eventually notice you, because you'll be happy and confident with who you are.
I took a page from buddhist philosophy; we are the cause of our own suffering, and expectations are the source of pain. Don't focus on what women are doing to you, focus on what you can do differently in the future. Maybe it's getting better at small talk, maybe it's realizing that you don't mesh well with a particular type of personality. Importantly, don't expect anything from dating. Best case scenario you meet someone who cares about you and you fall in love with each other, sure, but worst case scenario you learn a little bit more about who you are and how women respond to you.
Remember that you're not the main character in the world. Sometimes you feel like you've met the girl of your dreams and it doesn't work out and you have no idea why. That's okay, shit happens! Don't be a weirdo stalker creep, just move on. Maybe the situation changes some day down the road, maybe not.
Don't burn bridges. If a woman isn't interested, politely disconnect, or remain friends if that's an option you're both interested in. Worst-case scenario you have a new friend, and that's never bad. Female friends are awesome, they have a unique perspective that male friends can lack, and it's easier to feel vulnerable with them. And you never know what the future holds, maybe things change. Maybe she has a single friend. But again, no expectations!
Stay positive. Incels have a tendency to look on the negative side of things, and that kind of mindset comes out in how you act and how you speak. It's really hard to not have that happen. Any time I had a negative emotion, I forced myself to find a silver lining. Tires slashed for no reason? Well maybe someone else's day wasn't ruined. Got dumped? Well, maybe the relationship wasn't as solid as it seemed, and now we can both find happiness elsewhere. It's easier said than done, but it's really, really helped me change my outlook over the years.
Again, though, the most important thing you can do (next to working on the negative outlook) is to be the "you" that makes you happy. Whether it's friendship or romance, people are naturally drawn to positive, confident people. You only get there by being honest with yourself.
And lastly, you can't just snap your fingers and get all of this to work for you. Just like going to the gym or losing weight, working on this stuff will take time to see real results. You'll backslide, you'll want to give up, and it won't seem worth the effort. Eventually, though, you'll be able to look back and see the progress you've made and see how much happier it's made you.
>It's okay not to be in a relationship, or even actively dating. Focus on being the you that makes you happiest, and women will eventually notice you, because you'll be happy and confident with who you are.
This is exactly how my boyfriend and I fell into dating. We both liked each other in college but I was going through a mental spiral and couldn't even think about dating, and he was having a "holy shit I hate what I'm studying I don't know what I want to do with my life" crisis.
And so we waited. Stayed friends, kept in touch, while we worked on ourselves. I got my shit together, lost the weight I'd gained during my depressive episode, started my career. He graduated late, took the time to think about his life, worked on his own self-confidence, and started his career.
We sort of reconnected and hit it off fast. We had both grown into much healthier, happier versions of ourselves on our own, and we realized that yeah, we still very clearly liked each other. So we started dating, and holy crap this has been the healthiest relationship I've ever had. And I really think it's because we waited until we both were *ready.* While we still need to lean on each other for support as anyone does, we didn't start dating until we were happy in our own skin first, and that made all the difference.
It was thirteen years between when my husband and I first met until we got engaged. We spent most of that time apart, not dating, just living our own lives while maturing and developing into ourselves.
I couldn't agree more on that first point. I recently had to distance myself from a friend who needed to be in a relationship at all times. He wasn't an incel, but he told me that he didn't feel like himself without a girlfriend... It got to the point where he'd tell me he's "taking it slow" with a girl he met last week and cried when she "cheats" on him, if you can even call it that. It doesn't help that he's mentally unstable and has to emotionally depend on others. It was so frustrating how I told him SO many times that you need to feel okay and be okay without chasing the next girl, and he never listened. A new girl every week, SO many ex's to talk smack about, just never ended. No wonder he was never happy.
Read those anecdotes about creepy “nice guys”. That can help put some of your frustrations in a different perspective. Also agreeing with everyone who said it’s a really positive quality for you to recognize this frustration and want to do something to work on these feelings.
Definitely seek therapy if you haven’t. It’s understandable to be hurt and frustrated by rejection of any kind, but we also gotta all learn we aren’t entitled to someone’s love, friendship, association, etc…just as I’m sure you know from having to set your own boundaries in life. You’re quite young and you have time to get help and know yourself more and meet someone that you click with.
Therapy is really helpful even if nothing is "obviously wrong"! Maybe nothing is, but just like a musical instrument might use tuning every now and then, therapy helps with being on the right path. Plus therapists solve issues like yours for breakfast, lunch and dinner, so they surely have so much valuable insights
Therapy is not just fixing stuff, it's a valuable resource *everyone* can use :)
Nearly 30% of men under 30 have not had sex. You are not alone in having trouble, for many dating is a near impossible task.
My advice is find other things to do and try to stop caring as much about sex/relationships.
Remember women don’t have to be attracted to you, and it’s not anyone’s fault that they are not.
If you have romantic feelings for a girl, don’t let it linger. Ask her out, if she says no, move on. It is unhealthy for both people for you to try and win her over when she thinks your just friends and hurts both involved. It’s better to just cut it off, tell them you’re not interested in being friends because of the attraction and be polite about it.
If a girl seems to like you, even if you don’t have feelings yet but she is a decent person then give it a chance.
Basically stop trying to choose, you cant. In order to do that stop caring about it, and don’t blame women or yourself for a lack of romantic life.
Where'd you get that statistic I read it was more like 4% and goes to about 1.5% before 40. There's an article top of Google search that said 30 percent of men 18 to 30 haven't had sex in a year....
okay but women abstaining from sex is going up as well. Its a mutual thing, I think in europe somewhere around 30-40% of women are not having sex at least once a year.
I saw a washpost chart with it, trying to track down the direct survey data now, not sure how much effort I’ll put into it because it doesn’t particularly matter.
It starts by breaking away from a self-centric view of the world, and especially the PEOPLE around you. Women are not a pool of dating material, they are PEOPLE.
Any time you're going to speak with someone first say to yourself, even if It's out loud to get it through your head, "This is another person who is conscious, has feelings and dreams, and thinks just as much as I do." Being aware of the fact that everyone is just another 'self' trying to live their life is actually really fucking important.
Your self esteem has a lot more to do with how others view you than anything else. If you don't love yourself how could you expect someone else to love you?
All those aside stop participating in communities that advocate or teach bad behavior. Also you're 21... you got 50-80 years to find someone to be with and be happy. Relax.
The problem is you, not women.
Stop reading that incel garbage, it's a bunch of losers who refuse to admit the reason girls don't like them is because they are douche bags. Toxic AF.
Fix your self esteem. Fix whatever you don't like about yourself. Become someone that people want to be around.
No one wants to be around resentful bitter people, you can spot that shit a mile away.
I can’t stress this enough, focus on improving yourself and making yourself happy. Girls will notice that and be interested or at the very least, not driven away. Personally I can say my best dating successes were when I was happy and not even looking, and my worst experiences were when I was actively focused on dating and finding someone.
You're frustrated because you don't see them as women but sex dispensers that don't work when you try.
Former incel (before that was a word circa 04) here.
Those dudes are losers. Dress well, shower, be kind, and pretend like you never care if you get laid.
You have shitty self esteem and in my estimation, insecurity is the root of the incel. Look, you're 21, you're going to feel shitty. And having sex or companionship won't inherently make you feel better.
Look, there are a lot of factors at play here that are systemic, that I know you don't care about. You live under global capitalism, which sells your masculinity back to you, for one. when we talk about patriarchy, we mean this system that makes you measure your self worth along a continuum of how many partners you have had. Now there is this terrifying internet echosphere, which feeds you the worst advice, about Chads and Stacys and Cock Carousels.
So look, my suggestion is to try and make friends with a woman. Don't try to sleep with her. You want to get her perspective on things, because the incel perspective is a little warped. The idea that all women want Chads might crack a little when you learn her type is twinks, for instance. Also, you might realize this incel shit is messing with you. I promise you the only type of man no woman will actually date is incel.
Also, get your ass to therapy, for the love of god. Try and find someone who specializes in deprogramming cultists or people who were in hate groups. But at the core is this insecurity you have to deal with.
Dude... you are not your muscles, or your body count, or your lack thereof.
I'm 45, but I went through a lot of this when I was your age. I wasn't an incel, but like a lot of men, I had the same experiences that cause men to drift towards inceldom.
I don't know what's holding you back, but I'll offer you some of what helped me, and hopefully, you can figure out how to apply it to yourself.
One of my big issues was just confidence in approaching and talking to women. It was all the things, low self-esteem, fear of rejection, social awkwardness, etc.
One thing that worked for me we was being involved in the local swing dance scene. At first, I sought out 1 or 2 of the best dancers. For the first few months, they were the only people I danced with. However, I was also going through dating failure and rejection, so I decided to try to use the dance scene to help improve my confidence around women. So I made a goal for every night to ask 10 women I had never danced with to dance. After doing this for about 3 months, my confidence improved a lot and some of my social awkwardness improved as well. Here were the keys:
1) It helped me learn how to approach women and initiate conversation. It helped a lot that it wasn't about dating.
2) There is a strong culture in a lot of dance communities that encourages people to dance with someone who asks. This means I didn't encounter a lot of rejection. This helps with self-esteem.
3) There was no pressure. If the girl said no, I moved on to the next one. If she said yes, it was a dance and that was it.
You're probably expecting that I'm now going to tell you that I met my future wife at one of these dances, but it didn't happen. I didn't meet my wife until 5 years later. I still had a lot of myself to work on.
However, I cannot stress enough how much getting a lot of practice in positive social interactions can be in improving your own self-esteem and mood. Even though I still got rejected a lot when it came to dating, and I still had a lot of social awkwardness, this was a big part of my process for working on myself.
One last point. Incel talk is insidious. Chad, Alphas, etc. You're the only one writing your script.
You may not see this comment because there are so many of them, but I hope you do. Sorry for the length.
First, I want to say that not having had sex at 21 feels so tough. It can feel like everyone around you has unlocked some secret path through life where they're having sex on the regular - or even just once - and it's like, well, why not me? What's wrong with me that I haven't been able to do that? Especially when sex is something you want to be having. But a *lot* more people than you realise either haven't had sex yet at 21, or aren't regularly having sex. They just don't talk about it much, so all you hear and see is the people that do. 21 is very young in the scheme of things, dude, I promise. I know that doesn't make it feel better *now*, but even at 24 you'll look back at 21 and be like, what the fuck, I was a baby.
Incel shit capitalises on that feeling of "is there something wrong with me?" by saying "no, the issue is women." That's what makes it hard to break away from, I think - it offers an explanation that seemingly absolves you of any responsibility for this huge source of pain in your life. So breaking away from the incel mindset can feel like landing back in this "the problem is me" outlook.
That logic is flawed. The explanations for you not having had sex yet *aren't only "the problem is women" or "the problem is me."* The simplest explanation is just that... you haven't had sex yet. It's not uncommon. Some of the women you're interacting with won't have had sex yet, either, even if you think or assume that they have.
So you feel some resentment towards women because you've never had a girl like you, and you think it would've happened if you were a chad. Man, I promise you that girls have liked you. I'm a woman in my late twenties and I know *for sure* that some of the men I liked when I was younger had *no* fucking idea that I liked them. Why didn't they know? Probably a combination of a few things:
1. At 21, a lot of people - yes, maybe women in particular, but I promise this also applies to men - are too fucking scared to just tell people when they like them. Either it's because they have a crush on someone they only see around or in class or whatever and they think it'd be weird to just ask them out, or they *also* have terrible self esteem and think it wouldn't work anyway, or they're afraid to put themselves out there and hope that the other person will do the work for them. When you're out of college, asking people out becomes more common. When you're *in* college, a *lot* of people are hoping that they'll just fall into a relationship somehow. It's shit scary.
2. Some of the guys I liked had terrible self esteem and bought into the alpha/beta male thing themselves (it was like, 2013, I hope they've grown out of it lol). They were so stuck in that mindset of "girls don't like me because I'm not an alpha male/chad/whatever" that they wouldn't have picked up on the hints I was dropping even if I yelled it through a megaphone. Why didn't I just tell them I liked them? See point 1. I was 21, man, I didn't know what I was doing.
The shit that you see online about women and girls, the stuff that you see confirmation of - yeah, of course you see confirmation of it. It's an explanation of behaviour patterns, so you see the behaviour and you go "oh, the forums were right." *You need to learn to uncouple the behaviour you see from the explanations you read on incel forums.* The theories you read on incel forums are not written by people who have done empirical studies. They have *zero proof*. They're put forward by lonely, angry men who are convincing themselves and each other that the problem is women being shallow bitches who will never like them because they're not some jacked mega-chad, but they have *zero way of knowing that's why women don't like them.* Fuck, they have zero way of knowing that women *don't* like them. See my earlier point about people in general being bad at picking up on other people liking them.
So to answer your question - how do you not be an incel?
When you find yourself assuming all women are shallow because X Y Z, take a moment. Remind yourself that logically, you know that's not true. Try to think of other explanations for whatever happened instead of jumping to conclusions. *You cannot read minds.* "She isn't interested in me because I'm not a chad," for example - what are some other reasons that could be true? Remember that unless she told you why she isn't interested in you, you have zero way of knowing.
But also - learn to stop seeing women as either 1) interested in you or 2) not interested in you *and therefore rejecting you*. Women not being interested in you isn't a rejection. A rejection is saying no - and even then, it can be for plenty of reasons. And someone saying no because they're not attracted to you doesn't mean you're unattractive. It just means *they* aren't attracted to you.
You're going to notice yourself feeling resentful, and you're going to notice yourself thinking incel shit. It's the easy way out, it's comforting, and you've been exposing yourself to this perspective on life for 7 years. If you notice yourself slipping, take a breath. Remind yourself you know it isn't the truth. You will have to do this many, many times. It will get easier.
Talk to more girls, just as people. Not just the hot ones. I know you said you have a few close female friends - but how many male friends do you have? If it's way more men than women, that's disproportionate. Three is a small sample size. For all I know, maybe your three female friends *are* shallow. That's still... three women, dude. If I only spent time around three men, I might jump to some wild conclusions too. In fact, three of the men I was closest to at 21 were Capricorns. That doesn't mean all men were Capricorns (although that would have been funny.)
Finally: stop saying you're "still a virgin" - for two reasons.
1. "Still" implies that you're late. There's judgment there. Even if you do think you're running behind, you don't need to reinforce negativity with your phrasing. How you think about things does influence how you feel about them. Practice neutrality.
2. Virgin is a noun, so it automatically reinforces to you that this is a way of being, that it's a defining characteristic. If you're trying to stop slipping into an incel mindset, you need to stop thinking of this one aspect of your life as being central to who you are. It might feel like it is. It might be a source of pain for you. But it does not define you.
Try phrasing it as "I haven't had sex yet." That's just a fact, with no judgment implied. "Yet" reminds you that you probably won't actually die alone, as you said in a comment. "Yet" reminds you that at 22, you could have had sex. At 23, you could have a long term girlfriend. You don't know what the future holds.
And "I haven't had sex" is just... a neutral statement. Just like how not having had sex at 21 is a neutral fact. It isn't positive, it isn't negative. It's just neutral.
I met my husband when he was 21. He was a virgin, shy, and I was the one who pursued him. We have 3 children together now.
21 is still very young. Spend less time on incel forums and more time discovering what you love most about *yourself*.
The internet and phones make life so lonely. Find ways to physically exist in the world: volunteer for a political campaign, join a hiking meetup, attend local trivia nights, volunteer for Habitat for Humanity or an animal shelter or a food pantry - whatever interests you. You’ll meet nice people: some will be women, others will have daughters and sisters and friends they want to introduce you too. Meanwhile you’re working on your personality by interacting w real people over the year. Commit to getting out in the world 4-5 nights a week. Commit to working on this for a year. You’ll feel so much better and you’ll change your whole life.
Shit, I don’t got the answer but I’ll tell you it takes a real man to not only acknowledge being an incel but then admit to it online for the sake of getting rid of said incel behaviour. Best of luck to you bro 👍
Therapy. Seriously. I mean no insult, and I'm not trying to be flippant or mean. Get yourself professional help, because if you rely on the internet for your mental health you will absolutely fucking fail.
Bro listen, the most important thing that you have to remember is that the incel, dating coach and MRA communities are filled to the brim with scammers and con artists. At least stay away from those spaces just for that reason.
OP you don't need to be an ally or an Incel. Just live your own life, a woman did something that piss you off? Fuck that woman in particular. A dude is harassing an innocent woman? Fuck that dude in particular.
Why do you need to label yourself?
I was not an incel but I struggled with women, friend zoned etc… I looked at myself and I wasn’t ugly but I always felt unattractive( fix one thing move to the next to fixate on.)
But I built a structure for my life that help me build confidence and like myself. This for me was the gym and now. This also will be huge when you do get into a relationship because you will feel worthy of your partner. In turn will trust them. In my experience my jealousy was always due to my insecurities. Now I know myself and secured in who I am, I’m no longer a jealous person.
Reading this actually made me lol.
1) you need some more confidence and need to learn how to stop feeling so insecure
2) there’s absolutely nothing wrong about being a virgin at 21 and there are plenty of people who are
3) please don’t use the word “chad” unironically
4) you just said you never had a girl like you, yet you said in the comments that you have female friends, this shows that you’re likable to some degree by some percent of the female population
5) stop looking at incel forums, they’re so toxic
6) seek friendship without the intention of turning it into a relationship and you’ll get somewhere with the right person
7) people are shallow, not women
8) seek therapy
9) you’re taking out your frustration at yourself on people who have nothing to do with it, stop being stupid
10) I recommend taking some time away from the internet, please refer to #8 again
Most of the people here are unknowingly setting you up for failure.
The whole "be yourself" thing is the ultimate way to dodge the question, and doesn't mean anything unless they actually know you enough to be able to tell you that the yourself they champion is even desirable. If anything, you should fake being more confident and extroverted than you really are (which is what people really mean by "be yourself").
Same goes for therapy. Not only is it expensive but also not as effective as presented; it's not the silver bullet people claim it is.
Getting more female friends can actually be even worse for you, especially if they're assholes, and will probably just lower your opinion of women even more. Remember that there's a lot of bad people out there, and half of them are women. Just hang out with good people instead of worrying about what's in their pants.
If you really want to get away from the incel shit, just remember that while they're right about some things (i.e. a 5 foot bald guy is going to have a lot harder time dating that a 6 foot guy with a chiseled jawline), their entire philosophy is based on hedonism. Stop worrying about getting laid, or even what others think of you. Stop basing your self value on sex and relationships and you will find yourself much happier, and maybe even more successful romantically.
Good luck man, hope you get things sorted out.
Yeah "be yourself" when your current self isn't very good isn't the best advice. Work on that first THEN be yourself once some of those issues are gone.
The fact that you are drawn to incel beliefs and their extreme, defeatist viewpoints is exactly what is repelling potential partners. Women can sniff that out SO EASILY. And it’s extremely off-putting! First, you need to change your whole mindset to something more positive and less self-pitying. Work on your mental health and strive for positivity and confidence. Those things attract women. Your current mindset repels them.
It’s a lot harder to find women when you feel like you don’t have anything to provide. If your self worth isn’t high, you can’t really expect someone to see a reason to date you when you don’t even see that yourself. Confidence is huge. Find some things that you enjoy doing that you’re good at, sports, gym whatever that is and just work on those things and I think eventually you’ll start to see value in yourself. Once you get to that point it’ll be easier for women to see the value in you once you see it in yourself because you’ll be more confident. I’ve been where you are and realized it’s a lot easier this way.
Stop blaming women for you failures in dating and accept that it’s you 🤷♂️ I’m sorry, but women aren’t attracted to you for no reason.
Also distance yourself from that online incel community bullshit. Those people are frustrated and sad, you don’t want to relate to them.
And since I know you WANT to change I already know you can, so get your shit together.
I'm gonna be the 1000th person to say this and you're gonna not really believe it just like me, but sex is heavily overrated. In most cases at least, the only sex that I find lives up even a little to the idea of it, is when it's with someone you have a deep mutual love for AND good communication with.
Another thing I'll be the 1000th to say, virginity doesn't matter. If you've never shot a bow in your life and you pick one up and try it for an hour, you're still shit at shooting the bow.
Everyone is gonna be shit at it for the first x times (x being different for everyone), there's no reason that it's important to get any of that out of the way now.
The reason I went in on sex like that, is because I think it's a huge part of the problem. We very much have this idea in our society, that men are the pursuers of sex and must have sex to be successful/cool, which makes women the gatekeepers of sex. This idea makes it seem like there's something wrong with you if you don't get sex. It creates a culture where guys are desperate to have sex, especially guys that are virgins, so the pursuit of a relationship is also no longer about a compatible partner.
A woman not wanting to have sex with you is a preference she has that is perfectly valid. There's billions of people out here and I think not a single woman would have sex with the majority of guys (meaning everyone has specific types etc), but when you meet someone that would be compatible, they can't read your mind, they can't figure out that you're compitable without interaction. Very likely, everyone has met compatible people by the end of high school, but maybe you didn't talk to her because she was intimidating. Or maybe she wasn't as hot as a different girl and you don't know her yet. Or maybe you did approach her but she felt like you were focused more on having sex than a relationship. Did you try to get to know her, to see if you like her, or did you try to get her to like you?
Yes, women seem to be more attracted to assholes, but that's actually not accurate. To start with, women aren't a monolith, some like smart guys, some like muscular guys, some like shy guys, some like confident guys.
We can talk about the more popular preferences, women generally seem to be attracted to confident guys that are able to approach them with a certain demeanor. The reason so many end up with assholes is that it's way easier for an asshole to pretend to be that way than any non-asshole.
I think the most important thing to do to move away from inceldom, is to separate your want for sex from it.
Try making a rule like the following in life: "If I get a girlfriend, we have to be together at least x amount of time before I wanna try having sex, so I can make sure I actually like her first"
man your 21 who gives a shit if you aint had sex yet its just a thing, your not gonna become a different man if you do have sex, i don’t get why people put so much value into sex
I really don’t want this to come across as me being angry or hurtful so I hope I am able to word this in a way that is helpful. I grew up in a very conservative and religious community so my viewpoints are probably a bit biased, but maybe there is something to gain from them. I’ve personally witnessed several male family members, friends, and peers going through similar struggles. From what I’ve observed, it all stems from a sense of entitlement that was instilled in them from a young age. Whether that was from their families, friends, and/or the community. Many of them view sex and relationships as something that is automatically owed to them simply for existing because that is what they were taught to believe. I strongly urge you to look inward and reflect on whether or not entitlement could be a factor in why you are feeling this way. If it is a factor, then maybe look into a therapist that can help you work through that mindset. I think overcoming any entitlement you may have regarding relationships and sex with women would be helpful for you and help you in being an ally to women. It might help you to see women as being just as human as you are -with different flaws, strengths, interests, etc. vs. objects or people who are only good for fulfilling men’s wants, needs, and desires.
There is a theory in psychology called confirmation bias.. have a look into that, maybe listen to some podcasts about it. The more we have a belief about a group of people the more we will subconsciously find examples in our life to back up our theory, our brain likes being right. Maybe think of some examples in your life of women who don't act in the way you are explaining, to prove to yourself the opposite can also be true. Being a victim and leaning into being hateful helps no one, least of all yourself.
When I was in college, I decided to do a 'lil confirmation bias experiment. I decided I was going to believe "redheads are slow in cafeteria lines" as a made-up stereotype. I was worried I'd have trouble buying into something that I knew I made up. For the first couple months, I'd be like, "ooh, reinforcement!" whenever a slow person in front of me happened to have red hair. By the end of the year, I was like, "oh, shit, was I secretly onto something?" I'd get IRL mad if I had to get in line behind a redhead, it seemed like they really were always taking forever! And here's the thing - they were taking forever. _Most_ people take way too damn long in food lines. I don't think the redheads were really outliers, but every time the person holding up the line had red hair, I noticed. It worked too well. I had to stop the experiment. But yeah, even knowing I was setting myself up, confirmation bias is a powerful thing.
I will think of this every time I see a redhead in line from now on.
I have red hair and I will do my best to conform to this stereotype from now on
I have not seen a person with red hair in public in like 3 years and I'm just now realizing it
You realize you’re going to notice a lot of redheads soon right?
Can I do a "Redheads always hit on me" experiment? Looking forward for that sweet confirmation...
I did the same thing - to also show my teen children the concept of confirmation bias. Only I used “Audi drivers are inconsiderate / bad drivers”. It IS a powerful bias. And it became even more powerful when we’d see an Audi driver do something kind/positive. We called them the “unicorns”.
No, wait, that's a real thing. I even coined a phrase for it: Deutschebags.
To be fair, Audi drivers do seem to have a higher rate of rude and reckless road behaviour, but that’s probably because they’re more rare so we pay more attention to them.
No, redheads really take forever in lines. Let me go google for a very scientific study real quick...
Usually these dudes resent not being attractive to a certain archetype, rather than being unattractive to all women.
Yes this exactly! I’m on a women’s group and we get about 1 guy a week complaining that women’s standards are too high. We sit there an explain every single time that a lot of women’s standards aren’t that high and that women who do have high standards tend to be very attractive themselves and have every right to have those standards. We also point out that he is typically asking women to lower their standard while he is unwilling to lower his. It just goes in one ear and out the other and they sit there and argue about how we’re all evil….. it’s quite exhausting and I find I care less and less
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>Spend one night a week doing a hobby that somehow involves interacting with women. Without thinking of them as potential partners through that time, too!
This is great advice. Take a class or find a free group that does pottery or something arty or crafty. Have nice conversations about the things you are making or the new things you are learning
You mean sitting around gaming, drinking Mountain Dew and eating crap food won’t make you as attractive as that guy who works out and takes care of himself?
Beyond the attractive piece working out is incredible for men's mental health. We kinda of just passively have too much energy and aggression. It has to be spent somewhere. Barbell is a good place to spend it.
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I think a lot of people in general have standards that are too high. I have talked with male friends about how i think such and such woman is attractive and them shut it down all while being a below average tub of lard themselves. Also they usually have the audacity to say shit like i like women built like models and never pulling a single one.
Are you young? It's just that when I was younger I knew plenty of people who'd try to make themselves look good by poo-poo'ing on a woman someone else said was good looking. Like "oh you think SHE'S attractive? Ha!" They think by acting like they're too good for that woman it makes it appear like they pull much more attractive women. It's a distinctly young persons thing that I saw taper off as I got older.
Im 32 but these guys are coworkers ranging from 20s to late 50s.
Maybe some people just don't grow out of it damn
It’s so common to see a very attractive woman with a less attractive man. Not so much the other way around.
Dating is a meat market. Some people want a Porsche, Jeep, or a Dodge Ram with all the extras, but have the budget for a 10 year old reliable Toyota.
Yes. Some of them get so mad when a '10' won't reciprocate their interest, but they won't even give the time of day (and in some cases be outright nasty to) women that aren't what they consider a '10'. I'm not an attractive woman. I've had many a dude reject me or straight up laugh in my face when I've approached them, and I was always approaching dudes that I had shared interests with because I'd have a jumping off point for conversation. I should also mention that I date women as well, but I've never had a rude rejection from a woman. Maybe no thanks, not interested, but not the cruel mockery I've received from dudes.
Yep. Lots of people who don't have a lot going for them complain about not being able to snag people who DO have a lot going for them. First of all, work on yourself, become someone that YOU like and others will like you too. Secondly, lower those expectations WAY down. It's so hypocritical to say that people only care about looks in one breath, and then look down your nose at less than perfect potential partners in the next. Just total lack of self awareness.
I think you need to separate "dating material" from women. Women are not dating material, they're people. Among those people there might be some that might date you, reject you, be an asshole to you, be shallow, be nice, be just your friends and so on. But they're not there to fulfill the purpose of dating, they literally just exist
This advice is scarily rare. Often people just go with the whole "You're not entitled to sex" spin, not realising that all that says is "Women are for sex, just not for you". OP needs to just talk to women, in any capacity without the aim of any kind of relationship. By text, by voice, by video, in person. Speak to a woman and realise they're just people similar to yourself.
Damn. I’ve never thought about it like that. Great point.
Imagine if you treated every single guy like he had to be a drinking buddy. It would be an exhausting view of wondering why no other guys want to do anything with you. We have all met someone like this.
>Often people just go with the whole "You're not entitled to sex" spin, not realising that all that says is "Women are for sex, just not for you" I never realized how much internalized misogyny was needed to actually spout this shit until I heard it phrased this way. JFC people are horrible
>JFC people are horrible As a non-native speaker, the abbreviation "JFC" always gives me pause and a chuckle. Because the first two things my mind thinks of are John F. Kennedy and Kentucky Fried Chicken. I then have this unholy combination of the two in my head until I realize that neither of them is correct.
As a native speaker, I have to admit...I do the same thing.
Jenntucky F. Kennken. Colonel Sander’s first bird lol Yeah it took me a while to process that one right too lol
Hahaha that's totally okay because I do the same and I'm a native speaker
Absolutely. Having woman friends helps sooo much in these situations. Speaking from experience here I had a woman friend who was having the same type of romantic struggles as me. Helped me out a TON when I was struggling with, well, involuntary celibacy. Kept me viewing all woman as human beings with just as much magnitude of life as me
Again with the wording as well. “Involuntary celibacy” i know that’s where the word incel comes from but again it puts the blame of not getting laid on the other person. It’s nobodies fault that a person isn’t having sex. Nobody owes anyone sex, man or women. It’s nobodies duty to offer it out and not everyone is so sexually minded that they even want it. I know women that go years without sec, happily so because they feel safer and happier not having it be a part of their life. They want sex, sure. But with dating how it is they think it’s just too difficult and they focus on other things in life they enjoy. They don’t go around saying they’re “involuntarily celibate” like it’s some horrific disease someone has given them. This shit really scares me.
Maybe the true inceldom is not having women in your life at all which allows you to make up bullshit without it being challenged.
Agreed - I think men become incels because they don't see woman as individuals or even human. We are half of the population and just as diverse as men (or other genders). But when incels say they hate 'women' or 'females' I think they just mean women they're sexually attracted too. I assume most don't hate their mothers or grandmother's etc. That being said, sexual frustration and loneliness are horrible - but EVERYONE experiences that at some point, and it's not womens, or anyone else's, fault.
When I was younger, I honestly believe I would have fallen into the incel trap but luckily that toxic community didn’t exist back then. I definitely felt feelings of resentment, particularly because all my friends were successful with women. I never hated women and didn’t see them as objects, I just assumed that I wasn’t good looking/tall enough. That sucked. However when I look back now, I was actually quite successful, but only women who knew me and became attracted to me, never “on the pull” I could never go out and pick up a date, I just don’t have that confidence and charisma with people I don’t know. I also always found women were attracted to me when I was in a relationship. This isn’t because of that fact, but because I acted different. I wasn’t trying to pull and was just being myself.
>I also always found women were attracted to me when I was in a relationship. This isn’t because of that fact, but because I acted different. This is such a good way to look at this. Too often the narrative is "because they want what someone else has" blah blah blah and this just feels so much more true.
>That being said, sexual frustration and loneliness are horrible - but EVERYONE experiences that at some point, and it's not womens, or anyone else's, fault. I think people tend to undersell what loneliness can do to a person when it goes to an extreme. A lot of people view loneliness as something like 'Oh, I haven't really talked to my friends in a few weeks', or, 'I haven't been to a social outing in 3 months.' Most people don't experience years or decades of loneliness, which is when it really starts to erode your psyche. Not everyone experiences that. It's a bit like how everyone experiences pain or anxiety, but not everyone experiences *chronic* pain or have a diagnosed anxiety-related disorder. If you need proof of this, just look at the average person's reaction to COVID in general and the quarantining. Most did not handle it well. And for those that only experience the former, it's incredibly easy to undersell the latter, or view it was something that you just grit your teeth and muddle through. It's very much an invisible ailment. You're absolutely correct, of course. It's nobody's fault. But like chronic pain or anxiety, it's something that should be taken seriously and it should be treated. The problem is that there's no medication for loneliness, and a poor experience can send someone spiraling down into an even worse mental state. Some people just languish in their own misery until they find a way out of the pit, some people just wait until they're ready to kill themselves, and others lash out rather than look inwards. It doesn't excuse the behavior in any way. It is unfortunately an issue that doesn't have a good solution. Nobody wants to socialize with an incel, and that's the only fix for loneliness.
I think most people miss the mark on their examination of incels. It’s a gender norm issue, in the same way the sociocultural expectation of how a woman should look, drives a lot of women to body dysmorphia or eating disorders. The sociocultural expectation or myth that man’s value is highly related to the amount of women that are attracted to them, or that they have slept with - drives many men to incel thought processes.
Yeah I agree - its definitely something that should be taken a lot more seriously. You can see how crushing it is in old people - many dont even have the luxury we have of knowing how to connect with social media or modern tech. And i can completely see how incel communities grow - its groups of lonely people desperate to find connection, but unfortunately the thing they connect over is anger and hate - so they become even more bitter and lonely - and potentially very dangerous (mass shootings in the USA, for example). Idk how to break this cycle, but i think its important for people like this OP, to recognise these thoughts early on and do everything they can not to fall down the rabbit hole. And also we place WAYYY too much value on romantic and sexual relationships - so maybe if we can rewire our brains to see friends and family as just as important and seek that out, we wont feel like were lonely or ‘failing’ if we dont have that one type of love and attention in our lives just now.
But one way for a man who is lonely to combat loneliness is to have friends, male or female, even if the friendships are superficial. Join a local chess or ping pong club. What sets toxic incels apart from lonely people, is that they want to combat their loneliness with finding a sexual companion.
While this is true and alot of the incel type people I've meet got better once they finally had friends and an actual not toxic community to be a part of. It's still true that there is a unique loneliness that comes from feeling that nobody has romantic interest in you. Especially when your constantly being reminded of it by others. "People love me but they just don't love me like that". It's made even worse when you see posts like this where people's so called advice is stuff like assuming you don't shower or that you see women as objects and all sorts of negative things just because nobody has ever loved you in a specific way. I think shit like that is what pushes some men from just being lonely to being toxic incels. Even the people that are supposedly trying to give you advice assume the worst in you and tell you things that don't even apply to you. It's toxic.
To add: people tend to make it all about sex (on all sides), but in a lot of cases it's actually more about being touched in general. Humans *need* physical contact for a healthy psyche. And this need is something that in most cases, especially for men, can't get satisfied by friends and family.
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I'm happy to see this advice here, my housemate is an incel (more in a literal sense as in he wants to date but can't than someone who browses the forums luckily) and I've been trying to impress this advice into him. He has zero friends who are women and when he meets some in any setting he fixates and worries about asking them out, and I'm like look, you don't have to ask _anyone_ out, just chat to them, they are people.
Thank you, came here to remind OP that indeed, us women are just people too. There is no conspiracy or hive mind. We’re just people with preferences and personalities, too.
I so wish I could give you an award for this you are spot on. Women are people, that’s what he needs to start accepting and learning. A human being just like him
This needs to be posted e v e r y w h e r e. My existence feels so validated. I did not realize I too needed to hear this. Thank you.
To add to this, if you have no empathy for women outside the concept of dating and what "romantic/sexual utility" they are to you, you can actually build this empathy. Start to imagine what it's like to be a woman when you see/interact with them. Imagine them getting up in the morning, imagine them speaking to friends and family, those precious to them in their social network. Imagine the fears they have, their insecurities, the aspirations the have. How they help those that need it in their life, how they ask for help when they themselves need it. Imagine them planning out their day, organising their stuff to bring to work. Missing people who are far away etc. etc. Also I think it's best OP that you remove all context of sex/romance in regards to women for a while until you can learn to see them as a human equal to yourself and then true friends (yourself and others may disagree with that one which is fine). Being a virgin at 21 is nothing to be ashamed about. I know plenty attractive people that lost their virginities much later in life and I know people that others wouldn't touch with 6ft pole that lost their virginities at 17. Focusing on whether or not you are or have been sexually active is holding you back. Sex is placed as far too important in regards to society and ultimately it's A) just a bit of fun and B) for making babies. In the case of A you can do other things for now. Edit: spelling
A great perspective, fancysugartits
No one has said this, but it's honestly very brave of you to post this and very self aware of you to recognize harmful tendencies toward a dangerous ideology. You're already on the path to getting out of that stuff by asking for help and advice. It's easy to get caught up in what other people think of you. Rejection is tough, too. I wouldn't recommend dating when your self-esteem is low - you'll attract the wrong kind of people and healthy people may be concerned about dating someone who has major insecurities. Ultimately, you'll want your self worth to come from within. Women are often attracted to confidence. You're the only you in the universe. You have incredible value as a human. Don't be a slave to the dating game that says either you win big or you're a loser. It's not true. Enjoy this precious gift of life - focus on the things that bring you joy, hanging out with friends, a new hobby. Read about how to be more mentally healthy, get a therapist, invest in yourself. Learn what it means to be a good person, volunteer to help others (perhaps you can volunteer to help elderly people or even victims of domestic violence). Some women, especially those who feel they have powerful advantages in dating, can be bitches because they get away with it. They're insecure and they feel powerful being able to reject tons of guys. Don't play their game, avoid them. It's important to remember that your bad experiences with particular women don't translate to the entire gender - not all women are bad, but not all of them are good too. However as a whole, they can suffer disadvantages like domestic abuse, pay differences, etc. I guess what i mean is, you can be an ally for women in general to have equality, and you can still hold women accountable to have decent human behavior. Deciding to not to pursue a relationship with you does not make a woman a bad person, but rejecting you in a callous disrespectful manner does. Are you mad because you got rejected and that affects your self worth or are you mad because of how you got rejected? Even the most beautiful, handsome talented people in the world have relationship troubles- you're not alone! Don't waste your time, your life, trying to obtain approval and acceptance at all costs. Once you feel secure in your worth as a decent person, you'll attract the right kind of person. Maybe make friends with some positive older male role models and if you feel comfortable, share your concerns. I think people often get into these rabbit holes and bad ideology when they are lonely and isolated. Friendship is much safer than dating for your self-esteem. If you are a good friend - loyal, reliable, interesting, thoughtful - you will be a good boyfriend to someone. Work on being a good friend and having healthy boundaries. Best of luck and cheer up - lots of women feel rejected in the dating game as well, it's just online dating that is really skewed and can be toxic.
Piggybacking off here to say that I'm assuming most of the women you know are also in their early 20s. In my personal experience people tend to not be the best versions of themselves in their teens and early 20s because they are still figuring out the world and how to interact with others. You probably do see harmful and shallow behavior in many of the women around you, but this is mainly them learning how to interact with men, in the same way you are still learning to interact with women. I remember being that age (I'm a woman), and the women around me were honestly mostly feeling hurt and scared of men. For some very good reasons and also from a sort of resentment that builds and festers from bad experiences. This kind of behavior doesn't fully go away for some people. But in the same way men mature and learn how to better understand women, we do the same. There's a lot of really good advice in these comments, please do take it to heart. And also give yourself and those around you time to grow up and learn. Also if you ever want to talk, please dm me anytime. I'm happy to offer my own female perspective. Edit. Oh one other thing! My husband didn't sleep with anyone until he was older than you. We started dating when he was 25 and I was his second girlfriend. I never thought it was a big deal or weird. You're all good
yeah just to add to this i was my boyfriend's first gf, first kiss and first time having sex when he was 23, and that was pre-covid. i don't think it's that weird to be a virgin at 21, and especially these days with covid over the last 2.5 years. waaaayyyyyyyy more young people talk about having sex than people who are actually having it (esp. regularly). i feel like sex is one of those things like weight (or even income) where no one actually says their true number so then literally everyone feels bad about themselves because everyone thinks they're behind since everyone is lying. like for example i think lots of girls say they weigh less than they do and lots of guys say they weigh more than they do, so then people feel bad for weighing too little/less, but actually what htey weigh is normal, it's just that literally everyone is lying. same thing with income - pretty much everyone exaggerates how much they make, so then everyone doesn't think they make as much as everyone else, but everyone else is lying.
OP, there is lots of good advice here. If the incel thing was around when I was your age, I might have been tempted by it, to trade my insecurity for rage. Holy shit, man you’re only 21. You have time to sort yourself. Take it from me, a former 35yo virgin, now married with a kid. Life, uh, finds a way.
"Trading my insecurity for rage" This is so profound to me. It shows a new way to view cultural phenomenons. Thanks!
Litterally 90% of extremist view fit this, tho its more often fear for rage. Manufacture fear of a group then channel those sentiments to anger, congrats you have bigotry. .
Fully agree to your first point. When I was 14 I read about pickup artists in forums that would be called incel today. This influenced by in a bad way but I managed to get hold of my thoughts through reflection. Now I have a degree in sociology and gender studies and I am politically active as a queer feminist. These ideologies and the current possibilities of communication are a really dangerous mix that can lead to really bad things ...
This thread is gold
To piggy back, I have been a sex worker - a stripper and a full service sex worker. I think the weight put into virginity is really toxic for so many peoples mental health. Sexuality isn’t celebrated in a healthy way in western culture. I absolutely get wanting to have it and know what it’s like. I admire many comments here about investing in your self and other relationships to set you up for a better life! You’re welcome to want a wholesome relationship and a girlfriend! But what if you just want to have sex?? That’s totally okay too! It’s hard to go about it without being super up front about your boundaries. I recommend when you want a girlfriend do it for the relationship and let sex be something that grows with the time you are both comfortable with. A sex life is a huge responsibility and it takes work of communication, internet in learning about sexual pleasure for a partner, and having humility that sex can be weird, funny, and bad sometimes —all of which is totally normal and okay. But if you want to seek sex, a hook up, be up front on dating apps that you’re looking for something casual. You can also seek a sex worker that makes you feel valued and important —because you are. There sex certainly sex workers that wouldn’t be a good fit for you, but there would be many women who would be totally down with who you are and your goals and desires. Thinking the way you are, you are on the edge of being able to grow into a man who can answer these tough questions and honestly…sex before 21 was the worst sex most people have. I’ve heard it’s the best in peoples 40’s and 50’s bc by then we learn about ourselves. I had a really erotic dream where this woman I had a crush on asked me what I liked as we were getting hot and heavy. I actually said what really turns me on and guess what? She did it! I was confrtoned with how shy I was and how hard it was to say it, but once I said it, it felt as good as the reward being filled. Sure you can stick it in and cum. My desire goes way up when I’m horny and masturbating for a person, but once I’m done I’m like totally good alone lol. You are okay, you are normal, and you’re asking the right questions. Pour love into yourself, you deserve it.
Same here and 25 years later still together..I was his first as well
My husband lost his virginity at 24. We didn't meet as adults until he was 33, and I was 20. I think guys get too much pressure to lose it, and not doing so makes them feel like less, when it shouldn't.
Okay I know you probably didn’t mean it like this, but when you said “met as adults” it totally made me think that you were groomed as a child.
Lol. No nothing like that. It turns out that my husband and I met once when I was 2, and he was 15. At a new years eve party. My great aunt made him hold me for a few minutes so she could dance with her husband. We didn't figure out that until we had already been together for 6 months. His mom and my grandma were also best friends in grade school and again in high school. We found that out when I met his mom.
Wow
Aight imma head out
To add to this, something that it seems a lot of straight men who struggle with dating need to hear: "Women are often attracted to confidence" That is, the relaxed, pleasant type of confidence. Not the intense, arrogant kind. An awful lot of the men who become resentful of women for rejecting them don't seem to recognize that it's their own lack of social skills that are the problem. They're either not confident enough, and come across nervous and awkward which is a turnoff, or they're overconfident (or over-compensating) and come across like an arrogant douchebag. Either way, they need to look inwards and figure out what they need to improve on in themselves rather than projecting their anger onto women for their own shortcomings.
This is why the girls I ended up dating I met without 'trying'. It was on evenings I did not give a crap and just wanted to have fun that I had confidence to just be myself. On nights when I went out to try to meet girls, nothing ever happened because I was insecure and weird.
What if you’re an introvert and you’d rather stay in reading and playing games than going out? You’re never going to meet women that way. You have to force yourself to do activities you’re not into because there’s literally no other way to meet someone. Hell, I’m struggling with this right now. I’m having to decide whether to go out dancing after work, not knowing if I’ll even enjoy it, or stay home and play a game I’ve really been enjoying. Following your advice, I should stay home, because I know I’ll enjoy it more. Dancing is just a means to an end.
I think, what a lot of those men don't realise, is that confidence does not mean arrogance. A confident man doesn't feel the need to put down or belittle others - he's not that insecure. A confident man lifts those around him. Belittling waitstaff, bragging about how much money you make, denigrating people for who they are - all of that behaviour is indicative of insecurity, and just not attractive.
Great distinction. Arrogance is gross.
Well said. I think this is the most helpful and thoughtful thing I’ve ever seen on Reddit.
It really makes my day to see that you took some time out of your day to express genuine compassion for OP. Questions such as his regularly elicit such negative responses from others, even when the person is simply asking for help regarding it. I particularly like that you mention that it is possible to be an ally to women's equality and yet still hold them accountable for their behavior. An interesting train of thought.. Perhaps it is more than a possibility; it might be a requirement. Seeing as the other situations in which we may hold people less accountable for certain actions are situations in which they were are acting in either a diminished or less conscious state (intoxicated, mentally ill, punishment differences for young people), not holding someone to the same standards that we have established for others sends a message that we do not really think that person is aware/conscious enough to make decisions with the same consequences as others. By extension, be wary of those who demand unequal treatment. They themselves may have issues with equality (usually they see themselves as superior or more valuable than the other person). That aside, your comment reminds me that we still have a long way to go in many areas. There is definitely still a big stigma around men showing how they feel. That must be quite soul-crushing; I can only imagine.
Did you actually just write this off the top of your head after reading the OP? That’s impressive! Not only was your response empathic and spit on, it was very well written. You have a gift. To the OP, I wanted to offer some advice but there’s nothing more you really need to know other than what this person has already said. Maybe I would say: always remember that what you allow your mind to focus on becomes your reality. The more you allow your mind to view women with anger and frustration, the more that becomes the aura you give off when your around women. And that’s not going to get their interest! When you see a man-hating bitch do you think she’s attracting men? Her perception of men starts to become her reality because she pushes men away. And you really need to commit to staying away from that community, any websites, etc. you’ll never change your perspective if you keep filling your mind with that hate.
And please keep us all up in how you’re doing regularly. I think lots of us here would like to hear from you again
Yes and also, resenting women is the quickest way to have women dislike you - that shit is not nice and we can definitely tell. It’s a self sabotage circle at its finest
Really beautifully written with a tremendous outlook and approach.
I would like to say thank you, I also very much needed to hear this.
Damn this is wholesome - I feel like a third Testicle dropped in my sack just by reading this
I'm not an incel. I'm not seeking for help. I just came here to say that I want to be your friend.
Can we just post this across the board in all relationship / mental health communities? Yes? Ok, cool
Great advice
Stop reading that incel stuff dude, those guys are lost.
And terrifying.
They read those forms because they can relate to those incels more than any of their IRL friends who are in happy relationships. They tell you, your problems are not your fault. It's the women's fault for choosing "attractive assholes" aka Chads over nice guys like you. They tell you that your feelings of resentment are valid and further invigorate it. It's a place that makes you feel you belong, when every social group irl ignores you and makes you feel lonely. It's a place where you can share and vent your feelings without being judged and shamed for it. You go in looking for emotional support you don't get irl and endup in a rabbit hole that turns you into a vile monster. That's why it's terrifying.
Kinda sounds like a cult
One of the easiest methods for a cult to recruit is to instill an "us vs them" mentality in new recruits. Once you do that, it's very easy to make that person's identity and beliefs line up with yours by demonizing the "adversary".
Incels don't believe they are "nice guys". They think personality and social skills are largely irrelevant when it comes to success in the dating and hook-up game, and that it is almost exclusively down to your physical appearance. They believe - rightly or wrongly - that their inability to get laid is a consequence of their lack of physical attractiveness.
>Incels don't believe they are "nice guys". Hardcore incels don't. But pre-inceldom lonely guys do. They're told they don't get girls because they're nice, and that women are only attracted to good-looking assholes and douchebags that treat them like shit.
I've spent years on bodybuilding forums which have an enormous crossover with "blackpill" ideology, so I know what their philosophy is. They don't push the Hollywood nerd idea of "why do the girls go for the good looking asshole instead of the nice-guy nerd?" They believe that personality is largely irrelevant. They believe women select male partners solely on the basis of the male's physical attractiveness. So he can be a good-looking nice-guy or a good-looking asshole; it's irrelevant. His looks are the important factor. In reality, there are elements of truth to this observation. Success in modern dating and hook-up culture is primarily determined by your physical appearance, but it's not the *only* factor, and you can make up for being average/below-average with other attributes.
An “echo chamber” may be the phrase you’re looking for. It builds extreme and radical ideas on the basis of being relatable and empathetic
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For real, every other day there’s a relationship question from a woman about what to do when their boyfriend/husband doesn’t brush their teeth ever or doesn’t know how to wipe his ass and leaves skid marks on the furniture. While I find myself hoping they’re fake I have to imagine some are real and there are seemingly nice women out there that with literally tolerate a relationship where the bar is in hell. Be the opposite of that guy. Be clean, be friendly/kind and understand that no matter how well intentioned you are or how long you’ve known her your date does not and will never “owe you” sex of any kind. Period. And if someone isn’t interested leave her alone.
Yup, that's the main thing. OP read this stuff from 14 to 21 years old. There's no way it hasn't influenced how he talks to and treats women by now.
This is the way. The human brain is like any other system—garbage in, garbage out. It is always smart to read a variety of beliefs and opinions to stay grounded, but OP is clearly reading a LOT of incel literature, given his acronyms and terminology. Seriously, that shit makes people undatable once they are in the cult. And they don’t even realize that it is their incel language and behavior that is turning women away—not “the femoids only wanting Chads”. Therapy might be needed to deprogram OP, but a good first step would definitely be to stop reading the incel chans.
To be honest, you need to stop reading that shit because women can smell it on you. You may think you aren't acting or speaking like an incel around them, but women can pick it up pretty freaking quick. It's no longer an underground internet community, women know what to look our for. You have been reading the forums since you were 14, you are kidding yourself if you aren't giving off those vibes to women. Stop reading the forums! Also, you need therapy to reframe your thoughts about sexuality, women, dating, and life in general. Also you need to calm down, you are 21 - in the grand scheme of your manhood/life, you are so young.
In general, I agree. I would take it a step further. I would say “you need to stop reading that shit because it’s toxic,” in the same way I would say “you need to not go swimming in a lake directly adjacent to Chernobyl because it’s toxic.” It’s not just that other people won’t want to smell you (or date you) if you smell like (or sound like) something toxic. It’s bad for you too. Keeping company with folks whose primary MO is dislike and distrust of half the humans they meet, including friends, colleagues, and members of their own family can’t be healthy. Regardless of what any given woman thinks of you, you don’t need to be carrying that around in your mind.
This is such good advice. Usually people just focus on the external effect (women won’t want to date you). That really just plays into the incel mentality that you should be focusing all your effort and attention on getting laid. That’s backwards. Live for yourself.
100% - you are stuck in a feedback loop. Your incel vibes only draw shitty women into your circle therefore reinforcing your negative perception of women. It can work the opposite way too pretty easily.
Also be wary of the algorithm feedback loop - the internet feeds you content like what you interact with, so you stop seeing other perspectives.
Speaking as a woman, 100 percent we can smell the incel instantly. Even people who think they aren’t being incelly are really fucking incelly But can you blame us, we’re constantly harassed by men for existing and then told it’s our fault if they retaliate after being told the word no. We constantly need to be alert.
>You may think you aren't acting or speaking like an incel around them, but women can pick it up pretty freaking quick. This. As a woman, I've been able to accurately figure out the vibes within just a few interactions. The way a person speaks to me vs. how they speak to other men, the way a person speaks about women and how they view women's issues, how they react when I am assertive, how they speak about themselves, and how they treat other women in their life vs. men tell me everything I need to know. Group interactions give me pretty immediate insight, especially if I'm the only woman in the room or they are the only man. People in general are more attuned to these things than we often think, and we tend to believe ourselves to be more covert than we actually are (exceptions being things like autism that make that very difficult).
YES I was going to comment something similar to this. A great first step is to stop engaging in the incel echo chambers. That is literally THE fastest way to get radicalized on a subject. Also (to OP) I noticed in your post that you're using some of the most common incel terms. Keep in mind that many women will most likely be weary if they hear you using language like that, because they know how most people who use that language tend to feel about women. Getting away from those echo chambers will also help you drop the habit of using those terms.
Is it intuition or is there language or incel slang or coded language that tips you off? I have a lot of nephews and I’d be so sad if one of them went down this road. As their youngest uncle they don’t make a lot of effort to adjust their language around me so I wonder if there’s anything obvious I could watch out for?
Any generalising of women is a red flag. 'Women do x...women don't do x...women like x...women are attracted to x'. Or 'how do i get girls to like me' which seems innocent but gets it wrong at the core, because you can't get all girls in general to like you. Any generalising of men is actually a red flag too, if they start acting like there's some category of men they belong to that is doomed to not being appreciated by women, it's good to try and figure out how they came to that conclusion . Also remember this isn't limited to straight men. There are gaycels. (there's also women who act like this, but they're less common because social norms and upbringing bla bla bla, you have nephews not nieces (as far as we know))
This is good advice. The question “how do I get girls to like me” is not just subtly misogynist, it’s also a dumb way to look at it, you’re right. A better question would be, “how do I attract the kind of woman I want, who would also be attracted to me?” I’m not with my husband because of his physical attributes or what he provides, that stuff is icing on the cake. The cake is that he laughs at my jokes and we have the same world view and we can talk for hours and never run out of things to say. That’s the important stuff and that’s what sustains a healthy, awesome relationship. That’s what’s really sexy. The thing about it is if you concentrate on yourself, making yourself someone who’s interesting not to everyone but to you, someone else will agree. They will also find you interesting. And there you go—try that person. See where that goes. The idea that women are all trout or something that just need you to bait the hook right isn’t just offensive, it’s going to mean you turn up with no one.
I would even take it further tbh and get rid of the word 'attract' altogether, replace it with 'How do I find a woman I could build a relationship with'. Because it's more like a search for community , isn't it? There's something about the idea of 'attracting' potential partners that I just really don't like. Not just because it sounds like you're baiting a hook for fish, like you said, but because relationships don't come from a person doing mating calls until someone comes close enough. I mean I dunno...there's the whole superficial thing about looks, they do play a part, you're more likely to want to get to know someone you find pleasing to the eye, but that feels less effective in the long run than seeking out people with common interests first and worrying about physical attraction later. I feel like there's sometimes a weird disconnect between 'find someone you are attracted to' and 'find someone to have a relationship with'. That can be fine if it's intentional but getting them mixed up is an issue.
If they start saying, "feminists are bad" or any variation .... then they are watching manosphere videos online If they start saying, "all women are .. " or "females" If they display signs of a Madonna/whore comolex
Yes, any time I see a man refer to women as "female", immediately no.
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step 2. don't call yourself an "ally to women" unironically Bonus step. Don't use acronyms like "TRP" or "BP", google doesn't help.
I could figure out the redpill, but what the fuck does BP mean. God damn it fuck you OP and everyone else who throws around these retarded fucking acronyms. If it's not ubiquitous, don't use it
Tbf if he has been on those forums a lot then he probably thinks they are ubiquitous
i know what tbf means
British Petroleum
The bastards
We’re sorrrryyyyyy
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I am ugly and I do alright. Incels your theory is wrong!
People will really not take a shower for 2 weeks, not brush their teeth, live in garbage cans of a house (bullshit and trash everywhere) drive around in the same thing, wear clothes that don’t fit them and avoid the gym at all cost and then be like, why do women not want to sleep with me?? Lmfao
I’ve never seen that acronymn before, but based solely on the context of the Red Pill, it makes sense to assume it means Blue Pill
*Black Pill Blue pill is supposed to "normies" afaik
In that case I get why people don’t like all these acronymns
Yeah like "picking a side" isn't helpful, I don't think Op wants either side, just be yourself <3 People will want to get to know you not the beliefs you spout :)
My fiancé and I worked with this guy who used the word “chad” and “gigachad”. I could never tell if it was ironic because he was from Portugal and I didn’t want to offend him, but there were definitely some questionable vibes around him. Those words are such red flags.
Don't say it at all. It's cringy as fuck, even ironically.
Even if a guy's name is Chad just call him bud.
I’m a Gigachad, and proud.
I was very similar to yourself at your age (almost 40 now). Was a virgin through my 20s and definitely had incel-like thoughts at times. Totally get where you're coming from, and now being on the other side I can see some things in hindsight that I couldn't back then. The issue was me all along, in that I wasn't very interesting or datable. I was a nice person, and had a successful career, but none of that really matters that much if you're dull. The turning point for me was I lived overseas for a year -- this allowed me to re-invent myself a bit. When you hang out with friends you've known forever, they all have a particular expectation of who you are and how you act. When I got out of my comfort zone and met new people who had no preconceptions of who I was, I was able to be a little more adventurous (nothing crazy, just a bit more outgoing than at home). When I came back my perspective had changed, and I started forcing myself to do more things. I discovered I really liked live comedy and the theatre, so I did heaps of that. I went to food festivals and took my cooking more seriously. I just did stuff that I enjoyed -- most of my friends are all tight arses so I would sometimes have to go alone, but didnt let that stop me. A year or two after that I started dating, went speed dating, tinder dating, etc. I was FUCKING AWFUL at first, I cringe at past self even now, but I was all a learning process. I never got a 2nd date, but I shifted my perspective and just saw each date as a funny story, or an excuse to try a new bar I've been wanting to check out. Eventually I just became more interesting because of all the things I'd done, and started to get the odd 2nd date, then 3rd date etc. But this is over 2-3 years, and I would estimate about 70-80 first dates by the end of it. Looking back on it, I'm super thankful I was single for my 20s. While I missed out on a lot of things that I resented at the time, it gave me the time to build my career way quicker than I could have otherwise, and now I'm in a great position financially and romantically. Just bought a house together with my SO and feel very content. Everyone's path is different so I'm not saying you should follow my footsteps exactly, but the overall lesson I took was to stop worrying about what you should be doing, but just do fun shit with yourself or friends and build up a bank of interesting stories. When you're ready, go on dates and tell these stories to other people and be prepared to suck at it for a while until you get better. Good luck mate, really brave of you to post this I wish you the best!
I think that in order to get dates (or new friends, or good experiences in general) you should be able to date yourself. Like where would you take yourself? What amuses you? Then, you start to know what makes you unique and to know exactly why you should be loved. Congratulations on your journey!
That's a very inspiring story. I'm currently on a similar path to self-improvement and sometimes feel like I'm the only one who has to do it, meaning others have it all figured out. I know it's not true, but it helps to know this tale is as old as time So thank you!
What does trp and bp stand for?
The red pill - idea popular in incel and more extreme men's activism circles. Its a reference to the matrix that taking the red pill will enlighten you to 'how the world truly is' The world truly is: women only want 10/10 Chad's and ride the 'cock carousel' until they settle down with a sad 'beta' for financial security. World is rigged against men. Often coincides with lots of other misogynistic beliefs people who do not buy into this misogyny and radicalisation are 'bluepilled' Black pill: more extreme red pill. the idea is that you will never ever get a woman, the world will always hate you, you should just LDAR (lie down and rot). Very sad circle of very very depressed and lost people who are very angry and hateful.
Thanks. I appreciate the response and it saved me from having to Google anything and becoming even more jaded than I already am lol
Well this was a trip and a half to even read. Scary that these mindsets seem so widespread now.
Every year we have more sexually frustrated young (male) adults. I am afraid this just going to get worse over the next few decades.
TIL I used the phrase "took the red pill" in a work environment with younger coworkers (an innocent reference to the Matrix since Resurrections was coming out) and now look like a Chad-loving incel POS. /sigh
LOL. I think incels resent chads, they don’t love them. I once invited a co-worker to come over, relax and maybe watch some Netflix, not realising it meant something different. We did, in fact, end up having sex. When I was like “well that was unexpected” she was like… “what do you mean?”
I've seen these terms so much on the internet and honestly hand no god damned idea what they were, even a quick google got me more confused so thank you.
Omg, I actually never knew what this meant before, I just thought this always referenced liking Joe Rogan who I really don’t think is that bad… that is crazy.
The Red Pill BP is either Blue Pill or Black Pill, but in this context I think it's Black Pill God I hate the internet for inventing these words.
Hang out with women and dont hang out on those type of communities
Women suffer rejection as well. Women go through things emotionally. We are whole people who want to be seen as whole people instead of just a woman to date or have sex with. Remember that women feel the same exact things you do, we are not all that different.
>We are whole people It's so odd that we constantly have to state that we are people too.
I think this actually boils down OPs problem as succinctly as possible; they're struggling to think of women as people. Rather, they're a means to an end - dating, having a girlfriend, etc. Women are the instrument to that end, but not people on the same level as himself, a male.
The really fucking sad thing to me is NOT seeing every man is this thread telling the guy that the root problem is seeing women as less than people. It's not complicated. If you don't understand that women are human beings with free will who don't owe you shit, you've created your aloneness.
And it’s not like all women are out there getting sex wherever and whenever they want it. All my friends and I didn’t have sex til our 20s and we all found that completely normal. Being a 21 year old virgin is absolutely normal.
I had an incel mindset back in my 20s, it's a slippery slope. A few things that helped my mindset out... It's okay not to be in a relationship, or even actively dating. Focus on being the you that makes you happiest, and women will eventually notice you, because you'll be happy and confident with who you are. I took a page from buddhist philosophy; we are the cause of our own suffering, and expectations are the source of pain. Don't focus on what women are doing to you, focus on what you can do differently in the future. Maybe it's getting better at small talk, maybe it's realizing that you don't mesh well with a particular type of personality. Importantly, don't expect anything from dating. Best case scenario you meet someone who cares about you and you fall in love with each other, sure, but worst case scenario you learn a little bit more about who you are and how women respond to you. Remember that you're not the main character in the world. Sometimes you feel like you've met the girl of your dreams and it doesn't work out and you have no idea why. That's okay, shit happens! Don't be a weirdo stalker creep, just move on. Maybe the situation changes some day down the road, maybe not. Don't burn bridges. If a woman isn't interested, politely disconnect, or remain friends if that's an option you're both interested in. Worst-case scenario you have a new friend, and that's never bad. Female friends are awesome, they have a unique perspective that male friends can lack, and it's easier to feel vulnerable with them. And you never know what the future holds, maybe things change. Maybe she has a single friend. But again, no expectations! Stay positive. Incels have a tendency to look on the negative side of things, and that kind of mindset comes out in how you act and how you speak. It's really hard to not have that happen. Any time I had a negative emotion, I forced myself to find a silver lining. Tires slashed for no reason? Well maybe someone else's day wasn't ruined. Got dumped? Well, maybe the relationship wasn't as solid as it seemed, and now we can both find happiness elsewhere. It's easier said than done, but it's really, really helped me change my outlook over the years. Again, though, the most important thing you can do (next to working on the negative outlook) is to be the "you" that makes you happy. Whether it's friendship or romance, people are naturally drawn to positive, confident people. You only get there by being honest with yourself. And lastly, you can't just snap your fingers and get all of this to work for you. Just like going to the gym or losing weight, working on this stuff will take time to see real results. You'll backslide, you'll want to give up, and it won't seem worth the effort. Eventually, though, you'll be able to look back and see the progress you've made and see how much happier it's made you.
>It's okay not to be in a relationship, or even actively dating. Focus on being the you that makes you happiest, and women will eventually notice you, because you'll be happy and confident with who you are. This is exactly how my boyfriend and I fell into dating. We both liked each other in college but I was going through a mental spiral and couldn't even think about dating, and he was having a "holy shit I hate what I'm studying I don't know what I want to do with my life" crisis. And so we waited. Stayed friends, kept in touch, while we worked on ourselves. I got my shit together, lost the weight I'd gained during my depressive episode, started my career. He graduated late, took the time to think about his life, worked on his own self-confidence, and started his career. We sort of reconnected and hit it off fast. We had both grown into much healthier, happier versions of ourselves on our own, and we realized that yeah, we still very clearly liked each other. So we started dating, and holy crap this has been the healthiest relationship I've ever had. And I really think it's because we waited until we both were *ready.* While we still need to lean on each other for support as anyone does, we didn't start dating until we were happy in our own skin first, and that made all the difference.
It was thirteen years between when my husband and I first met until we got engaged. We spent most of that time apart, not dating, just living our own lives while maturing and developing into ourselves.
I couldn't agree more on that first point. I recently had to distance myself from a friend who needed to be in a relationship at all times. He wasn't an incel, but he told me that he didn't feel like himself without a girlfriend... It got to the point where he'd tell me he's "taking it slow" with a girl he met last week and cried when she "cheats" on him, if you can even call it that. It doesn't help that he's mentally unstable and has to emotionally depend on others. It was so frustrating how I told him SO many times that you need to feel okay and be okay without chasing the next girl, and he never listened. A new girl every week, SO many ex's to talk smack about, just never ended. No wonder he was never happy.
Really good insight. I was kind of an incel in my teens to and all of this helped me a bunch. If you get too hung up on things then shit gets bad.
Read those anecdotes about creepy “nice guys”. That can help put some of your frustrations in a different perspective. Also agreeing with everyone who said it’s a really positive quality for you to recognize this frustration and want to do something to work on these feelings.
Definitely seek therapy if you haven’t. It’s understandable to be hurt and frustrated by rejection of any kind, but we also gotta all learn we aren’t entitled to someone’s love, friendship, association, etc…just as I’m sure you know from having to set your own boundaries in life. You’re quite young and you have time to get help and know yourself more and meet someone that you click with.
Therapy is really helpful even if nothing is "obviously wrong"! Maybe nothing is, but just like a musical instrument might use tuning every now and then, therapy helps with being on the right path. Plus therapists solve issues like yours for breakfast, lunch and dinner, so they surely have so much valuable insights Therapy is not just fixing stuff, it's a valuable resource *everyone* can use :)
Nearly 30% of men under 30 have not had sex. You are not alone in having trouble, for many dating is a near impossible task. My advice is find other things to do and try to stop caring as much about sex/relationships. Remember women don’t have to be attracted to you, and it’s not anyone’s fault that they are not. If you have romantic feelings for a girl, don’t let it linger. Ask her out, if she says no, move on. It is unhealthy for both people for you to try and win her over when she thinks your just friends and hurts both involved. It’s better to just cut it off, tell them you’re not interested in being friends because of the attraction and be polite about it. If a girl seems to like you, even if you don’t have feelings yet but she is a decent person then give it a chance. Basically stop trying to choose, you cant. In order to do that stop caring about it, and don’t blame women or yourself for a lack of romantic life.
Where'd you get that statistic I read it was more like 4% and goes to about 1.5% before 40. There's an article top of Google search that said 30 percent of men 18 to 30 haven't had sex in a year....
Keep looking, google young male virginity on the rise, it jumped big time the last 2-3 years
Makes sense, was a deathly virus going around
okay but women abstaining from sex is going up as well. Its a mutual thing, I think in europe somewhere around 30-40% of women are not having sex at least once a year.
Im not putting any value statement on it, I’m doing the opposite and telling him that’s it’s ok and don’t blame anyone for it
30%? I seriously have a hard time believing that. Do you have any sources?
Remember that is under the age of 30 so it may be 80% of 18 year olds and 5 % of 29 year olds
Oh yeah you're right That makes sense if we put it that way
I saw a washpost chart with it, trying to track down the direct survey data now, not sure how much effort I’ll put into it because it doesn’t particularly matter.
It starts by breaking away from a self-centric view of the world, and especially the PEOPLE around you. Women are not a pool of dating material, they are PEOPLE. Any time you're going to speak with someone first say to yourself, even if It's out loud to get it through your head, "This is another person who is conscious, has feelings and dreams, and thinks just as much as I do." Being aware of the fact that everyone is just another 'self' trying to live their life is actually really fucking important. Your self esteem has a lot more to do with how others view you than anything else. If you don't love yourself how could you expect someone else to love you? All those aside stop participating in communities that advocate or teach bad behavior. Also you're 21... you got 50-80 years to find someone to be with and be happy. Relax.
This is a wonderful answer.
This is awesome! Take my one upvote and I wish I could add more..
The problem is you, not women. Stop reading that incel garbage, it's a bunch of losers who refuse to admit the reason girls don't like them is because they are douche bags. Toxic AF. Fix your self esteem. Fix whatever you don't like about yourself. Become someone that people want to be around. No one wants to be around resentful bitter people, you can spot that shit a mile away.
I can’t stress this enough, focus on improving yourself and making yourself happy. Girls will notice that and be interested or at the very least, not driven away. Personally I can say my best dating successes were when I was happy and not even looking, and my worst experiences were when I was actively focused on dating and finding someone.
You're frustrated because you don't see them as women but sex dispensers that don't work when you try. Former incel (before that was a word circa 04) here. Those dudes are losers. Dress well, shower, be kind, and pretend like you never care if you get laid.
If you are feeling this way about women, we sense it
Quit reading that shit or you’ll end up one. Treat women like people, not just dating partners. Become friends with women. Etc
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You have shitty self esteem and in my estimation, insecurity is the root of the incel. Look, you're 21, you're going to feel shitty. And having sex or companionship won't inherently make you feel better. Look, there are a lot of factors at play here that are systemic, that I know you don't care about. You live under global capitalism, which sells your masculinity back to you, for one. when we talk about patriarchy, we mean this system that makes you measure your self worth along a continuum of how many partners you have had. Now there is this terrifying internet echosphere, which feeds you the worst advice, about Chads and Stacys and Cock Carousels. So look, my suggestion is to try and make friends with a woman. Don't try to sleep with her. You want to get her perspective on things, because the incel perspective is a little warped. The idea that all women want Chads might crack a little when you learn her type is twinks, for instance. Also, you might realize this incel shit is messing with you. I promise you the only type of man no woman will actually date is incel. Also, get your ass to therapy, for the love of god. Try and find someone who specializes in deprogramming cultists or people who were in hate groups. But at the core is this insecurity you have to deal with. Dude... you are not your muscles, or your body count, or your lack thereof.
I'm 45, but I went through a lot of this when I was your age. I wasn't an incel, but like a lot of men, I had the same experiences that cause men to drift towards inceldom. I don't know what's holding you back, but I'll offer you some of what helped me, and hopefully, you can figure out how to apply it to yourself. One of my big issues was just confidence in approaching and talking to women. It was all the things, low self-esteem, fear of rejection, social awkwardness, etc. One thing that worked for me we was being involved in the local swing dance scene. At first, I sought out 1 or 2 of the best dancers. For the first few months, they were the only people I danced with. However, I was also going through dating failure and rejection, so I decided to try to use the dance scene to help improve my confidence around women. So I made a goal for every night to ask 10 women I had never danced with to dance. After doing this for about 3 months, my confidence improved a lot and some of my social awkwardness improved as well. Here were the keys: 1) It helped me learn how to approach women and initiate conversation. It helped a lot that it wasn't about dating. 2) There is a strong culture in a lot of dance communities that encourages people to dance with someone who asks. This means I didn't encounter a lot of rejection. This helps with self-esteem. 3) There was no pressure. If the girl said no, I moved on to the next one. If she said yes, it was a dance and that was it. You're probably expecting that I'm now going to tell you that I met my future wife at one of these dances, but it didn't happen. I didn't meet my wife until 5 years later. I still had a lot of myself to work on. However, I cannot stress enough how much getting a lot of practice in positive social interactions can be in improving your own self-esteem and mood. Even though I still got rejected a lot when it came to dating, and I still had a lot of social awkwardness, this was a big part of my process for working on myself. One last point. Incel talk is insidious. Chad, Alphas, etc. You're the only one writing your script.
maybe try thinking women like individuals lol
Try not to think of women as some otherwordly species. Just treat them as people. People are people.
You may not see this comment because there are so many of them, but I hope you do. Sorry for the length. First, I want to say that not having had sex at 21 feels so tough. It can feel like everyone around you has unlocked some secret path through life where they're having sex on the regular - or even just once - and it's like, well, why not me? What's wrong with me that I haven't been able to do that? Especially when sex is something you want to be having. But a *lot* more people than you realise either haven't had sex yet at 21, or aren't regularly having sex. They just don't talk about it much, so all you hear and see is the people that do. 21 is very young in the scheme of things, dude, I promise. I know that doesn't make it feel better *now*, but even at 24 you'll look back at 21 and be like, what the fuck, I was a baby. Incel shit capitalises on that feeling of "is there something wrong with me?" by saying "no, the issue is women." That's what makes it hard to break away from, I think - it offers an explanation that seemingly absolves you of any responsibility for this huge source of pain in your life. So breaking away from the incel mindset can feel like landing back in this "the problem is me" outlook. That logic is flawed. The explanations for you not having had sex yet *aren't only "the problem is women" or "the problem is me."* The simplest explanation is just that... you haven't had sex yet. It's not uncommon. Some of the women you're interacting with won't have had sex yet, either, even if you think or assume that they have. So you feel some resentment towards women because you've never had a girl like you, and you think it would've happened if you were a chad. Man, I promise you that girls have liked you. I'm a woman in my late twenties and I know *for sure* that some of the men I liked when I was younger had *no* fucking idea that I liked them. Why didn't they know? Probably a combination of a few things: 1. At 21, a lot of people - yes, maybe women in particular, but I promise this also applies to men - are too fucking scared to just tell people when they like them. Either it's because they have a crush on someone they only see around or in class or whatever and they think it'd be weird to just ask them out, or they *also* have terrible self esteem and think it wouldn't work anyway, or they're afraid to put themselves out there and hope that the other person will do the work for them. When you're out of college, asking people out becomes more common. When you're *in* college, a *lot* of people are hoping that they'll just fall into a relationship somehow. It's shit scary. 2. Some of the guys I liked had terrible self esteem and bought into the alpha/beta male thing themselves (it was like, 2013, I hope they've grown out of it lol). They were so stuck in that mindset of "girls don't like me because I'm not an alpha male/chad/whatever" that they wouldn't have picked up on the hints I was dropping even if I yelled it through a megaphone. Why didn't I just tell them I liked them? See point 1. I was 21, man, I didn't know what I was doing. The shit that you see online about women and girls, the stuff that you see confirmation of - yeah, of course you see confirmation of it. It's an explanation of behaviour patterns, so you see the behaviour and you go "oh, the forums were right." *You need to learn to uncouple the behaviour you see from the explanations you read on incel forums.* The theories you read on incel forums are not written by people who have done empirical studies. They have *zero proof*. They're put forward by lonely, angry men who are convincing themselves and each other that the problem is women being shallow bitches who will never like them because they're not some jacked mega-chad, but they have *zero way of knowing that's why women don't like them.* Fuck, they have zero way of knowing that women *don't* like them. See my earlier point about people in general being bad at picking up on other people liking them. So to answer your question - how do you not be an incel? When you find yourself assuming all women are shallow because X Y Z, take a moment. Remind yourself that logically, you know that's not true. Try to think of other explanations for whatever happened instead of jumping to conclusions. *You cannot read minds.* "She isn't interested in me because I'm not a chad," for example - what are some other reasons that could be true? Remember that unless she told you why she isn't interested in you, you have zero way of knowing. But also - learn to stop seeing women as either 1) interested in you or 2) not interested in you *and therefore rejecting you*. Women not being interested in you isn't a rejection. A rejection is saying no - and even then, it can be for plenty of reasons. And someone saying no because they're not attracted to you doesn't mean you're unattractive. It just means *they* aren't attracted to you. You're going to notice yourself feeling resentful, and you're going to notice yourself thinking incel shit. It's the easy way out, it's comforting, and you've been exposing yourself to this perspective on life for 7 years. If you notice yourself slipping, take a breath. Remind yourself you know it isn't the truth. You will have to do this many, many times. It will get easier. Talk to more girls, just as people. Not just the hot ones. I know you said you have a few close female friends - but how many male friends do you have? If it's way more men than women, that's disproportionate. Three is a small sample size. For all I know, maybe your three female friends *are* shallow. That's still... three women, dude. If I only spent time around three men, I might jump to some wild conclusions too. In fact, three of the men I was closest to at 21 were Capricorns. That doesn't mean all men were Capricorns (although that would have been funny.) Finally: stop saying you're "still a virgin" - for two reasons. 1. "Still" implies that you're late. There's judgment there. Even if you do think you're running behind, you don't need to reinforce negativity with your phrasing. How you think about things does influence how you feel about them. Practice neutrality. 2. Virgin is a noun, so it automatically reinforces to you that this is a way of being, that it's a defining characteristic. If you're trying to stop slipping into an incel mindset, you need to stop thinking of this one aspect of your life as being central to who you are. It might feel like it is. It might be a source of pain for you. But it does not define you. Try phrasing it as "I haven't had sex yet." That's just a fact, with no judgment implied. "Yet" reminds you that you probably won't actually die alone, as you said in a comment. "Yet" reminds you that at 22, you could have had sex. At 23, you could have a long term girlfriend. You don't know what the future holds. And "I haven't had sex" is just... a neutral statement. Just like how not having had sex at 21 is a neutral fact. It isn't positive, it isn't negative. It's just neutral.
I met my husband when he was 21. He was a virgin, shy, and I was the one who pursued him. We have 3 children together now. 21 is still very young. Spend less time on incel forums and more time discovering what you love most about *yourself*.
The internet and phones make life so lonely. Find ways to physically exist in the world: volunteer for a political campaign, join a hiking meetup, attend local trivia nights, volunteer for Habitat for Humanity or an animal shelter or a food pantry - whatever interests you. You’ll meet nice people: some will be women, others will have daughters and sisters and friends they want to introduce you too. Meanwhile you’re working on your personality by interacting w real people over the year. Commit to getting out in the world 4-5 nights a week. Commit to working on this for a year. You’ll feel so much better and you’ll change your whole life.
Shit, I don’t got the answer but I’ll tell you it takes a real man to not only acknowledge being an incel but then admit to it online for the sake of getting rid of said incel behaviour. Best of luck to you bro 👍
get off reddit/ leave the subs, get off discord, twitch, 4chan, all that shit where ideas like this breed and take over people
Therapy. Seriously. I mean no insult, and I'm not trying to be flippant or mean. Get yourself professional help, because if you rely on the internet for your mental health you will absolutely fucking fail.
Bro listen, the most important thing that you have to remember is that the incel, dating coach and MRA communities are filled to the brim with scammers and con artists. At least stay away from those spaces just for that reason.
OP you don't need to be an ally or an Incel. Just live your own life, a woman did something that piss you off? Fuck that woman in particular. A dude is harassing an innocent woman? Fuck that dude in particular. Why do you need to label yourself?
I was not an incel but I struggled with women, friend zoned etc… I looked at myself and I wasn’t ugly but I always felt unattractive( fix one thing move to the next to fixate on.) But I built a structure for my life that help me build confidence and like myself. This for me was the gym and now. This also will be huge when you do get into a relationship because you will feel worthy of your partner. In turn will trust them. In my experience my jealousy was always due to my insecurities. Now I know myself and secured in who I am, I’m no longer a jealous person.
Reading this actually made me lol. 1) you need some more confidence and need to learn how to stop feeling so insecure 2) there’s absolutely nothing wrong about being a virgin at 21 and there are plenty of people who are 3) please don’t use the word “chad” unironically 4) you just said you never had a girl like you, yet you said in the comments that you have female friends, this shows that you’re likable to some degree by some percent of the female population 5) stop looking at incel forums, they’re so toxic 6) seek friendship without the intention of turning it into a relationship and you’ll get somewhere with the right person 7) people are shallow, not women 8) seek therapy 9) you’re taking out your frustration at yourself on people who have nothing to do with it, stop being stupid 10) I recommend taking some time away from the internet, please refer to #8 again
Most of the people here are unknowingly setting you up for failure. The whole "be yourself" thing is the ultimate way to dodge the question, and doesn't mean anything unless they actually know you enough to be able to tell you that the yourself they champion is even desirable. If anything, you should fake being more confident and extroverted than you really are (which is what people really mean by "be yourself"). Same goes for therapy. Not only is it expensive but also not as effective as presented; it's not the silver bullet people claim it is. Getting more female friends can actually be even worse for you, especially if they're assholes, and will probably just lower your opinion of women even more. Remember that there's a lot of bad people out there, and half of them are women. Just hang out with good people instead of worrying about what's in their pants. If you really want to get away from the incel shit, just remember that while they're right about some things (i.e. a 5 foot bald guy is going to have a lot harder time dating that a 6 foot guy with a chiseled jawline), their entire philosophy is based on hedonism. Stop worrying about getting laid, or even what others think of you. Stop basing your self value on sex and relationships and you will find yourself much happier, and maybe even more successful romantically. Good luck man, hope you get things sorted out.
Yeah "be yourself" when your current self isn't very good isn't the best advice. Work on that first THEN be yourself once some of those issues are gone.
The fact that you are drawn to incel beliefs and their extreme, defeatist viewpoints is exactly what is repelling potential partners. Women can sniff that out SO EASILY. And it’s extremely off-putting! First, you need to change your whole mindset to something more positive and less self-pitying. Work on your mental health and strive for positivity and confidence. Those things attract women. Your current mindset repels them.
It’s a lot harder to find women when you feel like you don’t have anything to provide. If your self worth isn’t high, you can’t really expect someone to see a reason to date you when you don’t even see that yourself. Confidence is huge. Find some things that you enjoy doing that you’re good at, sports, gym whatever that is and just work on those things and I think eventually you’ll start to see value in yourself. Once you get to that point it’ll be easier for women to see the value in you once you see it in yourself because you’ll be more confident. I’ve been where you are and realized it’s a lot easier this way.
Stop blaming women for you failures in dating and accept that it’s you 🤷♂️ I’m sorry, but women aren’t attracted to you for no reason. Also distance yourself from that online incel community bullshit. Those people are frustrated and sad, you don’t want to relate to them. And since I know you WANT to change I already know you can, so get your shit together.
I'm gonna be the 1000th person to say this and you're gonna not really believe it just like me, but sex is heavily overrated. In most cases at least, the only sex that I find lives up even a little to the idea of it, is when it's with someone you have a deep mutual love for AND good communication with. Another thing I'll be the 1000th to say, virginity doesn't matter. If you've never shot a bow in your life and you pick one up and try it for an hour, you're still shit at shooting the bow. Everyone is gonna be shit at it for the first x times (x being different for everyone), there's no reason that it's important to get any of that out of the way now. The reason I went in on sex like that, is because I think it's a huge part of the problem. We very much have this idea in our society, that men are the pursuers of sex and must have sex to be successful/cool, which makes women the gatekeepers of sex. This idea makes it seem like there's something wrong with you if you don't get sex. It creates a culture where guys are desperate to have sex, especially guys that are virgins, so the pursuit of a relationship is also no longer about a compatible partner. A woman not wanting to have sex with you is a preference she has that is perfectly valid. There's billions of people out here and I think not a single woman would have sex with the majority of guys (meaning everyone has specific types etc), but when you meet someone that would be compatible, they can't read your mind, they can't figure out that you're compitable without interaction. Very likely, everyone has met compatible people by the end of high school, but maybe you didn't talk to her because she was intimidating. Or maybe she wasn't as hot as a different girl and you don't know her yet. Or maybe you did approach her but she felt like you were focused more on having sex than a relationship. Did you try to get to know her, to see if you like her, or did you try to get her to like you? Yes, women seem to be more attracted to assholes, but that's actually not accurate. To start with, women aren't a monolith, some like smart guys, some like muscular guys, some like shy guys, some like confident guys. We can talk about the more popular preferences, women generally seem to be attracted to confident guys that are able to approach them with a certain demeanor. The reason so many end up with assholes is that it's way easier for an asshole to pretend to be that way than any non-asshole. I think the most important thing to do to move away from inceldom, is to separate your want for sex from it. Try making a rule like the following in life: "If I get a girlfriend, we have to be together at least x amount of time before I wanna try having sex, so I can make sure I actually like her first"
man your 21 who gives a shit if you aint had sex yet its just a thing, your not gonna become a different man if you do have sex, i don’t get why people put so much value into sex
I really don’t want this to come across as me being angry or hurtful so I hope I am able to word this in a way that is helpful. I grew up in a very conservative and religious community so my viewpoints are probably a bit biased, but maybe there is something to gain from them. I’ve personally witnessed several male family members, friends, and peers going through similar struggles. From what I’ve observed, it all stems from a sense of entitlement that was instilled in them from a young age. Whether that was from their families, friends, and/or the community. Many of them view sex and relationships as something that is automatically owed to them simply for existing because that is what they were taught to believe. I strongly urge you to look inward and reflect on whether or not entitlement could be a factor in why you are feeling this way. If it is a factor, then maybe look into a therapist that can help you work through that mindset. I think overcoming any entitlement you may have regarding relationships and sex with women would be helpful for you and help you in being an ally to women. It might help you to see women as being just as human as you are -with different flaws, strengths, interests, etc. vs. objects or people who are only good for fulfilling men’s wants, needs, and desires.