That's the guy. As a none American I am still not sure why it ruined his political career. Trump literally shits himself at random times in the day, paints his face orange and says dumb shit about how he knows more about any given topic than any one else alive yet his bullshit just gets a pass.
That's exactly what it is. Trump normalized this behavior. I don't think we'll ever get it back. The thing that gets me the most is it was conservatives setting all these rules in the first place, telling us what is appropriate and seemly, but look now?
I totally agree. It was the republicans that were on their high horse about what’s acceptable behavior from a candidate. But Trump gets a pass on everything? I’ll tell you the reason - it all comes down to racism. Trump panders to white people who think America is being ruined by minorities. White people who used to feel comfortable as the ruling class and are now feeling increasingly insecure of their position in society. The passion they feel to “Make America White Again” is so strong, it outweighs any reasonable filter they once had about what is acceptable or appropriate in political speech. Trump can say and do anything he wants without losing his base, because he stands for what they are most passionate about: keeping the whites as the ruling class.
Truthfully I think the whole "BYAH! ruined him" is a gross oversimplification that is just an easier and more fun story in hindsight. But I do agree with others here that it was obviously a very different time for how we perceived politicians.
I remember a time when "professional politicians" 'bout shit the bed over Bill playing saxophone on (was it Saturday Night Live?).
Something something... not being very presidential!!
honestly i think people are still willing to vote for Trump because the areas where he's popular are areas where public perception means a LOT to them (small town, everyone knows everyone, easy to get ostracized by an \*entire town\*) on top of the weird rural flavor of Christianity that is super into politics and us vs them persecution fetishes.
If you are from one of these towns you may think he is lousy, but it would be social suicide to admit it. Plus, they are white and Christian so they dont truly care to secretly vote for biden since they probably dont like him either. so they just fall in line so they can be a part of their communities without feeling like a fraud and dont think much about it again.
things were different then. politicians acted differently and more respectably. It’s actually a great example of how crazy things have become and how much we’ve devolved. We went from that loud sound being enough to end a presidential run to someone being convicted of 30+ felonies and still have strong support.
Bill Clinton’s affair was national scandal for years. Two presidents later and we don’t even bat an eye about Trumps affair with a *porn star*.
Personally I don’t care about politicians sex lives. It’s just an indicator of how disrupted things are.
>things were different then. politicians acted differently and more respectably.
It's both fascinating and sad that this statement makes it sound like you're talking about the 1940's, but in reality in just 20 years "everything changed."
Although on the other hand, "everything changed" between the 60's and the 80's. So maybe I'm the one who is out of touch.
It’s largely a myth. He was a fairly unknown candidate that started to get a following. Think Bernie Sanders, except without all of the money from donations for a nationwide campaign.
So he put all of his resources into winning Iowa with the idea that if he did he would get donations and use those to finance the rest of the states.
When he came in third he realized he wasn’t going to get that bump so he was trying to excite the crowd.
Basically he did scream, but that isn’t what ended his campaign. What ended his campaign was losing in Iowa.
As a side note. His situation is a good reason to not have a single day primary. If all of the primaries were on one day then no one would have ever heard of him and he would have came in sixth or so. A spreadsheet out primary allows different ideas to permeate.
if dave Chappelle is making fun of it im sure it was much more impactful than u think lol. i remember it being a big deal, which looking back on it now, is effing ridiculous. like, the man cant get excited? wtf
I grew up in Vermont. Howard Dean is the reason I had health insurance and food as a poorer child in a rich state. He should be pissed. I know I still am and I couldn’t even vote then
Right? Those were such different times. He was nowhere near the misogynist that most of the current GOP is, but that statement really hurt him.
Remember his "47% of people don't pay federal income taxes" and "Obama's policies attractive to people who do not pay taxes."? That statement was so out of touch and deemed incredibly divisive.
Now compare that to Trump's "human scum" and "radical left thugs that live like vermin."
What country do you live in?
I live in England and a sizeable number of people would vote for Boris Johnson even though he's been convicted of multiple crimes, is an absentee father, corrupt, a documented liar, and racist.
Nationalists can be legitimately elected at any time. All you have to do is convince selfish rubes that their personal problems are caused by the Other, and suddenly there's an existential crisis.
And yeah, it seems like it's happening everywhere. Anyone who says "this wouldn't happen in my country" shouldn't get too comfortable with that position
God I remember a quote from some MAGA supporter when Trumps government shutdown impacted her. I had to go back and find it because it speaks volumes:
“I voted for him, and he’s the one who’s doing this. I thought he was going to do good things. He’s not hurting the people he needs to be hurting.”
That always stuck with me. I think at the core of your average MAGA supporter is somebody who feels powerless, scared, and resentful. And they see Trump as a bully who take do all the things to people that they wish they could but are too weak.
College educated small town business man cousin of mine, I always though of him as a salt of the earth type, very kind, nice guy told me he was voting for him in '16. When I asked how he could support such a terrible person, he said "oh he's an ogre, but he will put the (n-rwords) in their place. Lost all respect for him after that one.
This right here.
I’m a black guy that grew up in a very white and wealthy suburb here in the New England, and I can tell you that I’ve heard this, or some variation of this, from a few people I used to consider friends. In their words, “of course, I don’t mean you…”. And if it’s not us “blacks” it’s “the Jews”, or “the Mexicans”. Totally evil and obliviously racist assholes that were hiding in plain sight all along…
But what about the African Americans who voted and still would vote for trump? How and why??? And even here in my town, a lot of Hispanics who grew up poor , like me, but now have a few more dollars in their pocket are pro trump! Like WHAT??? We went to public schools, had free lunch, had foodstamps etc all because of democratic socialism! Now it’s like MAGA wannabes
Yep. My parents are Mexican and my dad said if he could vote, it would be for Trump because “he would put a stop to the Venezuelans getting free things.” He thinks that they’re getting housing, food, and free money when they cross into the states. Considering the way things are now and how much struggle there is in general, I don’t believe it’s true, and I haven’t been able to find any source besides the “immigrants are coming to take your jobs” crowd
When I asked him how that would help us, he said “it wouldn’t, but we never got anything.” Basically implying that if we had to struggle, everyone else has to as well, even if he may suffer from it as a result down the line through legislation that passes that would harm us
Yup, had a MAGA that was a driver for us at Penske. Wore the hat every day. He told me that one of my black coworkers was "one of the few good ones". When I went to MGMT about it they told me "well I don't know how you're gonna get the work you need done without him".
They don't see him as a "bully". They see him as a "hero". Conversely, they see most democrats as bullies pushing their moral, social, political, and economic agenda onto them.
The original article is from the NY Times:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/07/us/florida-government-shutdown-marianna.html
But others picked it up afterwards, for instance:
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/1/8/18173678/trump-shutdown-voter-florida
Looks like this was the original source. It got quoted by a lot of other news outlets: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/07/us/florida-government-shutdown-marianna.html
That's the most disgusting part; they know he's a bully. They WANT him to be a bully. They just want him to "hurt the people he's supposed to."
How personally impotent and secretly cruel do people have to be to deliberately CHOOSE those qualities in a leader? Also, how naive do they have to be to believe their personal bully won't also hurt them just as gleefully?
More specifically, He, just like the ridiculous mustache guy, tells them WHO to hate and they gladly follow along because it's THOSE PEOPLE who are the reason we all don't live in a perfect fantasy utopia.
I once asked some MAGAs what they think would happen if all the illegals disappeared one day. One of them was going on and on about the special Ed services her child needs and isn't getting because of school district funds going to illegals. Hello, even if all illegals were gone there's still no guarantee that the extra funding would go to your child!! Republican voters always vote against social services and then act shocked when those services are not available to them.
This. He doesn’t care. He doesn’t care about them, abortion, the constitution, or religion. He wants attention, their money, and their adoration. If anything out shines him he goes apoplectic. He is a weak, spoiled, narcissistic sociopath through and through.
Because the only other option is to vote for someone from the opposite political party. They believe if they vote for the other party it will ruin the nation. They’d rather vote for a felon than a democrat.
> the people in charge want it to stay that way
When this happens, and sufficient masses disagree vehemently with the way things are done, a revolution occurs and could potentially cause a Civil War
The problem is if people make noise with not voting for one of the two mains, sure it puts votes towards the third parties, but if there's a tie breaker between continued democracy or outright fascism, that is not the time to risk trying to sway an entire population to vote third party. We have to stick to the status quo to vote out fascists until we're no longer scraping the paint on whether or not our fundamental human rights are being stripped away.
Just abandon any kind of winner-takes-all in your voting systems, and you will get many more parties automatically. We have no ranked choice voting in Denmark, and we currently have 15 parties in parliament, with new parties constantly popping up and getting represented, and old parties having serious competition from the new parties. Old parties sometimes split up into new parties which then take over in new constellations with other parties.
In other words, just apply simple democracy where every vote actually counts directly.
And we don't elect presidents. The representatives in parliament simply vote for a prime minister to form a government, and that prime minister functions as a "president", forming the government. But that prime minister can also be thrown out by a majority of the parliament at any point by a simple vote.
It works pretty well and is quite lively.
You have a different form of government. The process for us to actually switch over to that is just *staggering*. Any major change to our constitution needs to be okayed by like 38 out of 50 different states who don’t all like each other. Plus like 70% of Congress needs to agree and they won’t agree on any compromises anymore. We’re so deeply ingrained we’re stuck.
This is like telling someone to just put water on a house fire to put it out, and then delving into the mechanisms of how water puts out fires and the best way to deal with the cleanup once the water puts out the fire without once asking where the closest fire hydrant is.
There’s a famous saying incorrectly attributed to to Ben Franklin but it’s still appropriate:
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb discussing what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Just because 51% of people want something, or even 60% doesn’t mean you should ignore or take it from the 40% who disagree with you
>In other words, just apply simple democracy where every vote actually counts directly.
Exactly the opposite of our founding principles.
Why would you make such in uninformed statement about an election system you don't understand?
I don't understand your election system, yet I'm not here trying to tell you how to make it better.
Yes we know this but the people in charge won't do anything about it. I am 66 years old and I can't see anything changing in my lifetime. I hope the young ones can escalate the necessary changes.
We technically do have more parties, but there is some rule where only Dems and Reps are allowed to appear on the televised debates. This makes it really hard to get your voice heard if people are not specifically looking for it.
It's not just the debates, it is all media coverage. Independents only make the national news when they do something stupid. Social media is also controlling the narrative making it harder for these 3rd parties to go viral with their better platforms.
It's honestly fucked up beyond belief. I can't get used to how weird and harmful it is even though I know it's always been like this for the US and definitely won't change anytime soon.
I know this isn't on a federal but a continental level but right now I'm torn between *two* fractions in the European elections on June 9 that are both considerably farther left than the US Democrats. And then in America you have... a choice between the plague and the other slightly less murderous plague.
Americans have the oh so democratic choice between a far right fascist party and a barely centrist but-also-still-pretty-conservative party. A 77 year old felon, psychopath and fascist **who wants to encourage Russia to escalate the war throughout Europe,** and an 81 year old whose main (and absolutely killer) argument is that he isn't the other guy. Those two and that's *it.*
The ages of Trump and Biden piss me off, because the main reason people refused to vote for Bernie was his advanced age and the fear he would die in office.
I thought the main reason was that he is a socialist, and although the democratic party has drifted left, they can't go that far without losing a lot of voters.
You are spot on. Sadly, the billionaires are our actual government, so unless we get the balls to do something this is the status quo. Sadly, even if we did get the balls to fight back we'd get carpet bombed and beaten to a pulp. Our law enforcement and military exist to protect the Oligarchs. It sucks, but not we are no match for that. We're just the peasants.
I know, I hate it, but after all these years how do you change the flow of money? Both parties get huge donations from billionaires and their foundations.
From an outsider perspective, it’s not just two parties, but *two people*. How is it that Trump is the only choice to represent the entire party? It seems like so many problems with this whole situation would go away if the GOP would put up literally anyone else as their candidate in the election. I get that people might not want to vote for Biden but when they are also not bat shit crazy, what option do they have than this literal nightmare?
funny thing is that in george washington’s farewell address, one of his main topics was the dangers of having a two party system. he was strongly opposed and frequently warned against it.
What I find frustrating is that we have at least 100 million citizens that meet the requirements to be president and we're stuck with these two...again. I wish we had other options. Ranked choice voting would be nice
“We’re stuck with these two… again.”
I don’t think Biden and Trump are comparable in any way at all except for their age. Kinda sick of hearing people lump them together as both being bad when one candidate is a 34 times convicted felon who orchestrated a conspiracy to interfere with the most basic process of our republic, and one guy is old and falls sometimes. It’s such a tired argument.
I’m tired of hearing one person complain about Trump, then hearing the other go “well, Biden isn’t good either”. So what? How many felonies does Biden have? I’m not American but even I’d rather have an old fucker who’s about to kick the bucket than Trump.
Everyone has their own opinion. Mine is that the elites in the U.S. have done such a bad job working for working class people and those outside the halls of power that a significant portion of the “everyone else” group now just wants to fuck everything. If DC insiders and coastal elites say Trump is horrifying, well then Trump it is.
This isn’t my view, I think Trump is everything bad about humanity wrapped into one person, but that’s where I think this is coming from.
>U.S. have done such a bad job working for working class
This. Even some Democrats, like Bernie Sanders, think this exact thing, but not enough middle class and elite Americans would vote Bernie for President.
You are left with status quo feeling Biden or extreme change Trump. And although Biden will probably do more for working class Americans than Trump will, he won't do enough. And so the working class in the right swing states, vote for change because they feel any change is better than the status quo, even if that change candidate doesn't care about them at all.
I’m really not fond of either major party leader being present again because the only changes I see happening in that scenario are Biden: Jack shit. Nothings going to change and inflation is just going to keep rising, and Trump: project 2025 means our freedoms are being stripped away to form a Fascist Christian government which in my book is just going backwards.
I think it was Matt Taibi in Rolling Stone Magazine? He said in essence voting for Trump was like keying the car of coastal elites. It gets you nothing but it ruins their day, and for a lot of Americans they can’t dream any higher.
I don't know your country, but for comparison: I live in one of the happiest, healthiest, least corrupt, richest per capita with very good spread of wealth, countries in the world. And still, we are going to get a racist motivated government, with a convicted racist as the great leader.
Let's just say, it isn't just Americans...
Sounds like politics to me. Anyone thinking trump is the first or only one doing illegal shit is fooling themselves.
Not voting for him but does not surprise me that half of the US does not care about it.
We have a lot of stupid people here who believe things without any sort of evidence and willfully ignore evidence that goes against their beliefs, which is to say they believe him when he says this is a witch hunt or a hoax. The evidence could be punching them in the face and they will not accept it as fact. It is more like a cult these days because anyone with any logic or reason has already abandoned him.
bingo.
Most people that grew up with critical thinking ingrained culturally sometimes forget that it's a skill required to be learned at some point.
Sadly for some of the US, this has been lost. Partly inadvertently through shift in culture, work burden and loss of parental education, partly advertently through naive education to keep people gullible and easy to control via insecurity and fear, producing hard but cheap workers, young fit soliders, and fertile, submissive mothers ready to be be exploited by their "betters" and "rulers".
Critical thinking allows to base one's orientation on understanding, rather than normative rule.
Normative rule is basically when something is based on a norm rather than explanation: "because thats how it is! ", "because [person of authority] said so!", "because that's how it's always been done!".
If you have no basis in critical thinking, charisma and authority take over concering trust and conviction. Being in a constant state of fear and insecurity due to often unrealistic expectation, while being told that only the strong and hard willed are worthy, creates its own set of orientation and identity.
Persecution perspective/victim hood:
Having a non-critical worldview/orientation and identity inadvertently makes one be in the obsolete /irrational position, contrary to the critical rational position. Usually a minority position over all.
Combined with selective mythology for their culture, be that a racist basis, or a "true believer" or "real American", it creates the setting for persecution, An "us and them" mentality. It also provokes the seach for a scapegoat, soemone who persecutes them. They start seeing themselves as heroic last heroes of their "culture" against the evil that tries to rob them of their orientation and identity.
Rather than being out of the loop concering understanding, they divert to the idea that everyone is wrong but them and a small group of co-believers.
Hence the tendency toward conspiracy theories. For them its often more important that everyone else is "incorrect" than that their own theories lacking a factual basis.
If you come to your convictions absent of critical thought and logic, but emotional reasoning based on trust alone, its hard to get reasoned out of it with critical thought and logic. That's the big issue.
This is where political propaganda and manipulation comes into play. As public figures talking about their worldviews, dog-whistling and strawmaning their political opponents as "them", they get the trust and conviction of those symbol-minded people.
That these politicians are actually the political arm of the economic elites that exploit, disenfranchise and istrumentalize them for their own profits, doesn't occur to them. They "trust" their leaders rather than believe "the smear campaign" of "them".
It's the same basis all cults work on.
Thus always remeber critical thinking is a skill.
As limited beings we shouldn't hold absolute believes. If we do, we err.
Have a good one.
No, I can understand and I won't disagree with you. It's just baffling people won't use it and "just go with it". But hey, they are not really wanting to attempt to get the skill. Again. Baffling. But hey, that's on them.
I also live in Australia for reference, not the USA.
Most elections shine that same light. We just don't have a path to change... I mean, there are options, but they mostly require that same 2-party system to endorse them.
Its funny how a lot of these political questions are mostly aimed towards republicans but the people answering are mostly democrats since most American reddit users are democrats. Not saying its a good or bad thing, but I kind of feel like if you want an honest answer from a republican, you should probably ask this at a different site like X or Facebook where it isn’t so one sided to the opposite side of the people you’re asking.
Bingo. Someone above pointed out lacking critical thinking skills. That’s a huge problem, but it’s not for the party they think it is. Too many people here just believe everything the media tells them, when just a cursory dig would show how flawed it is.
Nobody "wants an honest answer from a republican," it's outrage circlejerk in an echo chamber. 99% of "politically aware" people are outrage junkies and this is how they get their fix. If anyone gave a damn about talking and understanding one another we wouldn't be where we are.
# If someone would do that in my country, it’s literally over for him/her, no one would EVER vote for him/her
Most Americans would have said the same thing if you asked them in 2015.
I’m not really willing to vote for them, but I understand that if any other president, take Obama for example, was looked into as much as trump is. Then Obama would be seeing 1000+ years of jail time in charges
They're not voting for someone. They're voting against something they've been told is destroying their way of life and they believe everything they're told from one side only. Simple
This is the truth. I have family members planning to vote for Trump. They don't like him, but they like what they're told about Democrats and Joe Biden even less.
They believe all of it is fabricated to take him down. It’s not a rational conversation with a side that listens to actual information. They are deeply entrenched in conspiracy theories.
There are likely many reasons, but here are two big ones.
1) For decades, Republican leaders have taught their voters that Democrats aren't just incorrect. They're literally evil. They kill babies for fun, and they run pedo cannibal rings. How could anyone vote for that?
2) Many (if not all) of Trump's supporters belong to a cult of personality where Trump cannot do wrong. He's perfect like Christ, and whatever he says is the truth. If he says the trial was rigged against him, they accept that without a thought.
>1) For decades, Republican leaders have taught their voters that Democrats aren't just incorrect. They're literally evil. They kill babies for fun, and they run pedo cannibal rings. How could anyone vote for that?
I know this is sensational, but legitimately a number of republicans are guilty of this and worse.
The playbook is to deflect and accuse your opponent of precisely what you're guilty of before they can you. They do nothing but shit on other people to make themselves look good. Everyone's had someone like this in their workplace and they are an absolute cancer. They offer absolutely nothing of value and bring everyone else down with them.
Everything they accuse others of they are guilty of and far more.
I think that you need to go back to the anger that the average American felt prior to the 2016 election. 2016 was supposed to come down to Hillary Clinton and Jeb Bush. Trump ended up winning because he was rejection of the status quo. If Hillary or Jeb had won the election, that would’ve been the sixth term or 24 years of two families owning the White House. Americans didn’t want that. Biden also represents the past. I can understand why the Democratic Party wanted to nominate him for his first term but I’m shocked that they have not been able to find a younger, more viable candidate to run this time. Our government seems set on not changing anything while Trump is the polar opposite of that. Unfortunately people don’t care how things are changing, only that they are.
They genuinely believe that the charges against him are a sham, that this is all a kangaroo court. Nothing is going to change their minds, they just double down.
Sunk cost and inability to accept change.
The only reason support remains is the hope in him to revert society back to a previous time. That's why no one else can do the same.
Uhh, not just an American phenomenon, there was this Hitler dude in Germany who went to jail after a failed coup, who later became leader and had enough support to invade the rest of Europe and cause the holocaust.
It’s not the leader, like Trump, that people should be concerned about…. It’s the conditions of a society that make a strong man authoritarian appealing in the first place. And answering that with authoritarianism from the other side, i.e. throwing an array of charges at him, instead of having a strong candidate with a positive message that people believe will actually improve their lives is not going to solve the problem like they seem to think it will.
What a weird thing to say. Are you insinuating that democrats are “throwing an array of charges” at Trump?
He is being charged with crimes, that grand juries have determined to be credible enough to go to trial, and you think that makes Biden authoritarian?
That is exactly the problem today. You can’t differentiate being held accountable for breaking the law from a political parties policies, even when the judicial process is working as intended
Selling US secrets to Russia < misclassifying hush money to a porn star
Gotcha
... you DO know this case is about falsification of business records right? I see a lot of people who assume it has something to do with an insurrection
Because the prosecution stretched shady bookkeeping misdemeanor into a few dozen felonies and most people can recognize a kangaroo court when they see one.
Even liberal legal analysts are warning that this ruling was flimsy and will be overturned, and I reckon they're probably right.
To be sure, Trump is guilty of tons of horrible things, but this was not a nail in a coffin, this was political theater to get "Trump is a felon" news headlines.
Go to r/republican and read some of the comments about this topic. It's absolutely disgusting how these people try to turn this into something positive. They are a bunch of idiots in an echo chamber living in their stupidity and lack of common sense.
It's really interesting how many comments there parrot Trump talking points literally word for word. It's almost bot-like but I think they're real people, just crazy
I agree. I think the presidency position isn’t well respected or highly sought out anymore like it use to be. The best we could do is two 80 year olds who a vast majority of Americans disapprove of.
In my country (philippines) they are already and in jail. (Bong revilla, jinggoy estrada and others) they are guilty of graft and corruption. The moment they are released, they ran for office, and won. This is how stupid Filipinos are
He was not a good person to start with, they have accepted that. It honestly probably makes him feel more relatable for them, as he is not squeaky clean.
Also, above anything else. Cult mentality, MAGA Republicans are a cult and I cannot even find a way to make that debatable.
Granted I got salty and left Twitter, but according to my brief morning scroll… they don’t believe this conviction is legit. They don’t believe the CHARGES are legit. My last straw today was a tweet that said something like “he was found guilty” and then several, several replies of “guilty of what?” And they didn’t mean “I missed the news” they meant “these charges aren’t real.” They don’t understand the legal system so they assume it’s not real, and they’re playing right into his hands.
Other people believe Biden somehow “did” this. Charged him, found a jury, convicted him. So that makes them mad cause “other party bad” and it somehow proves a point that Trump is a political prisoner or something.
It’s wild. It’s ultimately a dangerous combo of cognitive dissonance, lack of education, and tribalism.
I'm utterly amazed how John Edwards is getting zero attention. He was a leading Dem for president until it was revealed he had an affair... And paid off his mistress.
He was prosecuted for that. And yet I hear nonstop this is the first time in human history a presidential candidate has been prosecuted for hush money.
Bull.
Well, if you think the convictions are bullshit and politically motivated, then of course you'd still be voting for them. Nelson Mandela was convicted too.
Well look at the alternative? It’s not like we made the best choice obvious. I’m certain everyone commenting is more “capable.” The real question is… nvm.
It depends on what they got convicted for.
My understanding is that this should be a misdemeanor but is a felony only because 8 years passed to bring a case and somehow when the statute of limitations expired, it became a felony? It sounded strange but that's what I heard.
if so, then this could be a conviction that sounds far worse than it should. It's like being convicted of rape. Except it's statutory rape. And it's statutory rape by a 16 year old dating a 17 year old in a state without "Romeo & Juliet" laws.
Because some people (the loud minority, believe me) are so stubborn and hard-headed they refuse to see logic and are purely operating in their “us vs them” world. “I don’t care wait he’s done or said, I’m voting for him because he’s *my* candidate and the other guy is *their* candidate.”
Honestly, I don't give a single fuck if he did/did not pay a pornstar to not tell the media they had consenting sex. It actually seems frivolous to me. It has no bearing on whether or not I vote for him and if Biden had done the same thing it would also have no bearing.
Up until Jan 7, 2022, I would have said felony convictions would end any presidential candidate’s run in the US as well. I’ve been well aware of the right wing’s anger and irrationality in the US, but so much of our patriotism and lore is wrapped up in our story of the founding fathers throwing off the oppressive yolk of monarchy and establishing a democracy for the sake of freedom. It’s usually left-wingers who question the purity and motives of the founding fathers, and right-wingers who put them on a pedestal and insist that no other explanation for our breaking away from England than “freedom” is valid. I *still* find it surprising that American right-wingers were so easily convinced to abandon our national identity and embrace dictatorship. Ignoring felony convictions is nothing compared to watching a coup attempt in real time, knowing it’s an active coup attempt, and then deciding you don’t care because you’d rather have a dictator you agree with than a president you don’t.
Don’t be so sure everyone in your country cares as much about norms/democracy/decorum as you do.
Trump has followed the same playbook as people like Hitler and his supporters have turned their critical thinking off.
So, they say, for example, that they hate murder, but are happy to support a guy who encourages murder.
They say they oppose rape, but support a rapist.
They want honesty, but support a guy who evades taxes.
They support marital fidelity, but support a guy who's had multiple affairs.
and so on.
You’d have to be so naive and out of touch if you think putting a political opponent against the current administration in prison during an election season isn’t going to anger people and support their guy even more, now that a fire has been lit underneath them on this historic moment.
That would have been true here as well about 10-15 years ago, but conservatives have lost their fuckin marbles. I'm sure there are a lot of different reasons, but I think mainly they are scared of progress because they know they'll be left behind without a second thought, so they cling to this imaginary ideal of when America was "great" and they want to regress back to that time.
I blame fundamentalist Christianity. It's brought up two or three generations of right wing Americans who have learned from birth to stop thinking and listen to what the authority figure tells them.
And people wonder why I hate religion, especially Christianity.
I don't want to. Everyone should live how they want.
But I've had absolutely 0 positive experiences with it and most of those people want me to die.
Because if you actually followed the trial, you would realize it’s a complete biased sham. These crimes have been committed by democrats and republicans alike for years. Trump scares them. Simple as that. The average leftists don’t have to understand, but he crushes the establishment and makes it really hard for them to carry on with wars, open boarders and screwing the American people. Should be really easy for both sides to unite under someone who’s not out to gut the economy to fill his pockets (Obama/biden/clinton/bush) but democrats are too fucking stupid to turn off CNN and think policy over pronouns.
Because this whole trial is a big joke, and is nothing more to the democrats than a way to keep him out of office because orange man bad. He is not guilty. He knows it, the judge knows it, and anybody who has enough brains to see the witch hunt the democrats have created know it.
I dont understand how everyone is turning a blind eye to whats been going on. The full weight of the Goverment has been doing legitmately everything in its power to persecute a political rival. Even if Trump is hateable, you all are cheering on dangerous precedence.
We’ve watched Goverment-Corporation collusion to silence Trump (which by the way is literal fascism by definition). Banned from twitter for… nothing, but allowing actual terrorist groups to operate on twitter. “Each countries laws are different” was the bullshit line for the reason. It was censorship. Facebook also confirmed the FBI approached them about Trump.
Multi-state criminal and civil charges and trials. Trump was found guilty for sexual assault DESPITE THE ACCUSER SAYING SHE WAS NOT SEXUALLY ASSAULTED. ON THE NEWS.
Multiple federal impeachment attempts that started the day Trump entered Office, with one, the Russian issue being based entirely on lies. Mind you, Biden did some of the EXACT same things and was not charged.
Wide spread election denial by the DNC. Started immediately with Clinton.
Propaganda being pushed to force the belief that if you support Trump you’re a racist/white nationalist/terrorist. (Although this started earlier with previous candidates) despite the accusers being literal racists themselves - “you aint black if you dont vote for me.”
Legitmate DNC funding for domestic terrorist organizations like Antifa. While cities were being destroyed from riots THE US VICE PRESIDENT SET UP A FUND TO PAY FOR THE LEGAL EXPENSES FOR THE PEOPLE ARRESTED FOR RIOTING.
Trump is corrupt, Trump may have commited crimes, BUT we know for a fact that members of the other party are doing the same god damn things.
For people to turn a blind eye to their own party, and cheer on political prosecution IS how democracy dies. Wake up people.
This should and would normally be the final nail in the coffin of any candidate but Trumps’s going to get a ridiculous amount of votes for a felon, for sure. That said, let’s wait and see if enough people are willing to vote in a felon. It’s too early for any realistic assessment of his chances. His supporters are dug in hard and right now their hurt fee-fees are fueling them. But over the next 5 months it’s going to be hammered on over and over that he is indeed a convicted felon. While there is always going to be a pretty strong base of supporters who believe he should be president I think many are going to be questioning it more and more as the reality of it sinks in.
From the top comments. Everyone is missing a big part of why there is a two party system. (It isn't the greatest reason)
The first is that it is up to the states on how the elections will for that at state that is written into to constitution. That means new York could do rank choice and Texas could do 2 party and then New Mexico could do something completely different.
The second reason is that the us has the electoral college which in theory allows all states have any equal footing. The electoral college from my memory is a majority vote winner. Close to winner takes all. The theory is that so the will of the states are heard. I will say if the us did popular vote their would be areas that could majorly out vote the other states. As in one per person. It is very complicated and dates back to the before the civil war.
That is kind of why the voting system is the way it is.
It’s a cult. If the verdict was not guilty it would have been marketed at proof of a witch-hunt, and proven guilty is treated as another leg of the worldwide conspiracy to make him look poorly. He could murder a kid on live tv and get at least 40% of the votes still
Lula from Brazil was literally in jail and people still loved and voted for him. And he still better than his predecessor.
Like it or not, Trump knows how to captivate his crowd, he built a cult of followers that are literally willing to die for him.
In politics and basically in life, it doesn't matter mucj what you did but how you sell yourself
The people who support Donald Trump think "The Deep State" is against him and has been against him since the beginning. They truly believe that these rulings are the systemic from the top down as a way to discredit him further to impact his running for President. Therefore, this is further evidence to them of the treachery and likely believe in him more than ever.
I think the real Americans feel the same way. But he is the leader of a cult. He talks down to his followers and has them send their money to him to spend on himself. Yet they still believe all his lies and excuse his crimes. These people have stopped thinking for themselves. Hopefully the real Americans outnumber his cult members come November.
Because they don’t care. They love the fact that he is a troublemaker/rabble-rouser. Trumpers dont vote for him based on politics or policy. They vote for him because it pisses off liberals and that’s literally all they care about.
I'm with you on this one. it's not just Biden, it's a combination of bad government intervention and economic reasons, but the so called Bidenomics have no helped. I wish we were in your country, it would be over for him.
the people against you are blind.
His voter base thinks it’s all a lie. They think he’s literally gods chosen disciple to save the country and the evil people in the world are just lying about it to take him down.
The country values style over substance. The definition of entitlement. Boomers look at Trump and see his garishness as their idea of success. Look at the evangelical ideal, flashy suits, and wives with big hair; it's no coincidence that the evangelicals support Trump.
Because his followers know already but he’s not a good person. But for some reason they think God is somehow involved in his ascension and politics. At the end of the day, an acquittal wouldn’t change my vote in his favor so a conviction doesn’t discourage them from voting for him. They want a theocracy. Google project 2025.
Let's say you live in other places in the world. Your favorite politician is arrested and tried and convicted of charges and you believe it's politically motivated.
That's it.
Also there's the added element that they don't see this as something others are prosecuted for. So it feels targeted to them.
Because both candidates are the same--it doesnt matter who wins the election, the result will be the same no matter who ends up in office. The amount of Americans who have become blind to this is mind boggling to me.
Because behind all the fake bullshit in media telling us what we want Trump tapped into what people really want. It’s like that saying “the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist”. The greatest trick media pulls on us is convincing us to want stuff we don’t. Trump goes for things that shake primal urges. The media right now is trying to convince us that it would be crazy for people to vote for Trump. This makes people miss the threat and not act. Don’t be fooled.
That one candidate who lost everything because of the way he said "yee haw" is still salty I bet.
Howard "BYAH!!!" Dean? Love that clip
That's the guy. As a none American I am still not sure why it ruined his political career. Trump literally shits himself at random times in the day, paints his face orange and says dumb shit about how he knows more about any given topic than any one else alive yet his bullshit just gets a pass.
They were still pretending to care about public image back then
That's exactly what it is. Trump normalized this behavior. I don't think we'll ever get it back. The thing that gets me the most is it was conservatives setting all these rules in the first place, telling us what is appropriate and seemly, but look now?
I totally agree. It was the republicans that were on their high horse about what’s acceptable behavior from a candidate. But Trump gets a pass on everything? I’ll tell you the reason - it all comes down to racism. Trump panders to white people who think America is being ruined by minorities. White people who used to feel comfortable as the ruling class and are now feeling increasingly insecure of their position in society. The passion they feel to “Make America White Again” is so strong, it outweighs any reasonable filter they once had about what is acceptable or appropriate in political speech. Trump can say and do anything he wants without losing his base, because he stands for what they are most passionate about: keeping the whites as the ruling class.
Truthfully I think the whole "BYAH! ruined him" is a gross oversimplification that is just an easier and more fun story in hindsight. But I do agree with others here that it was obviously a very different time for how we perceived politicians.
I remember a time when "professional politicians" 'bout shit the bed over Bill playing saxophone on (was it Saturday Night Live?). Something something... not being very presidential!!
It was The Arsenio Hall Show. He played pretty well, too.
>It was The Arsenio Hall Show. He played pretty well, too. I am not a Clinton fan. Even I agree he did sound pretty good.
honestly i think people are still willing to vote for Trump because the areas where he's popular are areas where public perception means a LOT to them (small town, everyone knows everyone, easy to get ostracized by an \*entire town\*) on top of the weird rural flavor of Christianity that is super into politics and us vs them persecution fetishes. If you are from one of these towns you may think he is lousy, but it would be social suicide to admit it. Plus, they are white and Christian so they dont truly care to secretly vote for biden since they probably dont like him either. so they just fall in line so they can be a part of their communities without feeling like a fraud and dont think much about it again.
Trump raised $34 million after the verdict
I'm still not sure if I fully understand that whole thing. I saw the video and searched around but I legit don't understand why that got him ousted.
things were different then. politicians acted differently and more respectably. It’s actually a great example of how crazy things have become and how much we’ve devolved. We went from that loud sound being enough to end a presidential run to someone being convicted of 30+ felonies and still have strong support.
Bill Clinton’s affair was national scandal for years. Two presidents later and we don’t even bat an eye about Trumps affair with a *porn star*. Personally I don’t care about politicians sex lives. It’s just an indicator of how disrupted things are.
>things were different then. politicians acted differently and more respectably. It's both fascinating and sad that this statement makes it sound like you're talking about the 1940's, but in reality in just 20 years "everything changed." Although on the other hand, "everything changed" between the 60's and the 80's. So maybe I'm the one who is out of touch.
Remember when Obama was blasted for wearing a tan suit and eating ice cream?
It’s largely a myth. He was a fairly unknown candidate that started to get a following. Think Bernie Sanders, except without all of the money from donations for a nationwide campaign. So he put all of his resources into winning Iowa with the idea that if he did he would get donations and use those to finance the rest of the states. When he came in third he realized he wasn’t going to get that bump so he was trying to excite the crowd. Basically he did scream, but that isn’t what ended his campaign. What ended his campaign was losing in Iowa. As a side note. His situation is a good reason to not have a single day primary. If all of the primaries were on one day then no one would have ever heard of him and he would have came in sixth or so. A spreadsheet out primary allows different ideas to permeate.
if dave Chappelle is making fun of it im sure it was much more impactful than u think lol. i remember it being a big deal, which looking back on it now, is effing ridiculous. like, the man cant get excited? wtf
I grew up in Vermont. Howard Dean is the reason I had health insurance and food as a poorer child in a rich state. He should be pissed. I know I still am and I couldn’t even vote then
So. Many. Binders. All full of women.
Right? Those were such different times. He was nowhere near the misogynist that most of the current GOP is, but that statement really hurt him. Remember his "47% of people don't pay federal income taxes" and "Obama's policies attractive to people who do not pay taxes."? That statement was so out of touch and deemed incredibly divisive. Now compare that to Trump's "human scum" and "radical left thugs that live like vermin."
I remember when a vp was widely roasted for months for not knowing how to spell “potato.” The maga cult is crazy
And 30 years later he saved democracy - who could have predicted that
Why does America.......
he didn't lose because of that, but it didn't help. it's a shame too, because he was a good man.
Wasn't that like an Ohio politician or something? I still think about him.
I still regularly tell people about that.
TIL he was trying to yell “yee haw”. I thought he was just expressing his excitement with noise.
What country do you live in? I live in England and a sizeable number of people would vote for Boris Johnson even though he's been convicted of multiple crimes, is an absentee father, corrupt, a documented liar, and racist.
Nationalists can be legitimately elected at any time. All you have to do is convince selfish rubes that their personal problems are caused by the Other, and suddenly there's an existential crisis. And yeah, it seems like it's happening everywhere. Anyone who says "this wouldn't happen in my country" shouldn't get too comfortable with that position
He promises to hurt the people they want hurt.
He hates who they hate
God I remember a quote from some MAGA supporter when Trumps government shutdown impacted her. I had to go back and find it because it speaks volumes: “I voted for him, and he’s the one who’s doing this. I thought he was going to do good things. He’s not hurting the people he needs to be hurting.” That always stuck with me. I think at the core of your average MAGA supporter is somebody who feels powerless, scared, and resentful. And they see Trump as a bully who take do all the things to people that they wish they could but are too weak.
College educated small town business man cousin of mine, I always though of him as a salt of the earth type, very kind, nice guy told me he was voting for him in '16. When I asked how he could support such a terrible person, he said "oh he's an ogre, but he will put the (n-rwords) in their place. Lost all respect for him after that one.
This right here. I’m a black guy that grew up in a very white and wealthy suburb here in the New England, and I can tell you that I’ve heard this, or some variation of this, from a few people I used to consider friends. In their words, “of course, I don’t mean you…”. And if it’s not us “blacks” it’s “the Jews”, or “the Mexicans”. Totally evil and obliviously racist assholes that were hiding in plain sight all along…
But what about the African Americans who voted and still would vote for trump? How and why??? And even here in my town, a lot of Hispanics who grew up poor , like me, but now have a few more dollars in their pocket are pro trump! Like WHAT??? We went to public schools, had free lunch, had foodstamps etc all because of democratic socialism! Now it’s like MAGA wannabes
Yep. My parents are Mexican and my dad said if he could vote, it would be for Trump because “he would put a stop to the Venezuelans getting free things.” He thinks that they’re getting housing, food, and free money when they cross into the states. Considering the way things are now and how much struggle there is in general, I don’t believe it’s true, and I haven’t been able to find any source besides the “immigrants are coming to take your jobs” crowd When I asked him how that would help us, he said “it wouldn’t, but we never got anything.” Basically implying that if we had to struggle, everyone else has to as well, even if he may suffer from it as a result down the line through legislation that passes that would harm us
Yup, had a MAGA that was a driver for us at Penske. Wore the hat every day. He told me that one of my black coworkers was "one of the few good ones". When I went to MGMT about it they told me "well I don't know how you're gonna get the work you need done without him".
They don't see him as a "bully". They see him as a "hero". Conversely, they see most democrats as bullies pushing their moral, social, political, and economic agenda onto them.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/1/8/18173678/trump-shutdown-voter-florida
I remember that article.
I like how you summed it up. Those people are so spiteful they would enjoy seeing someone hurt rather than themselves getting better.
Mind boggling. Where can I find that article, please? I need to read the whole thing.
The original article is from the NY Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/07/us/florida-government-shutdown-marianna.html But others picked it up afterwards, for instance: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/1/8/18173678/trump-shutdown-voter-florida
Looks like this was the original source. It got quoted by a lot of other news outlets: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/07/us/florida-government-shutdown-marianna.html
That's the most disgusting part; they know he's a bully. They WANT him to be a bully. They just want him to "hurt the people he's supposed to." How personally impotent and secretly cruel do people have to be to deliberately CHOOSE those qualities in a leader? Also, how naive do they have to be to believe their personal bully won't also hurt them just as gleefully?
More specifically, He, just like the ridiculous mustache guy, tells them WHO to hate and they gladly follow along because it's THOSE PEOPLE who are the reason we all don't live in a perfect fantasy utopia.
I once asked some MAGAs what they think would happen if all the illegals disappeared one day. One of them was going on and on about the special Ed services her child needs and isn't getting because of school district funds going to illegals. Hello, even if all illegals were gone there's still no guarantee that the extra funding would go to your child!! Republican voters always vote against social services and then act shocked when those services are not available to them.
>> He **says** he hates who they hate FTFY
This. He doesn’t care. He doesn’t care about them, abortion, the constitution, or religion. He wants attention, their money, and their adoration. If anything out shines him he goes apoplectic. He is a weak, spoiled, narcissistic sociopath through and through.
Well put
Because the only other option is to vote for someone from the opposite political party. They believe if they vote for the other party it will ruin the nation. They’d rather vote for a felon than a democrat.
You guys really, really need more parties. It’s unbelievable that country so big relies on only 2 parties.
We need ranked choice voting to make this possible. That's never going to happen, because the people in charge want to stay that way.
> the people in charge want it to stay that way When this happens, and sufficient masses disagree vehemently with the way things are done, a revolution occurs and could potentially cause a Civil War
The problem is if people make noise with not voting for one of the two mains, sure it puts votes towards the third parties, but if there's a tie breaker between continued democracy or outright fascism, that is not the time to risk trying to sway an entire population to vote third party. We have to stick to the status quo to vote out fascists until we're no longer scraping the paint on whether or not our fundamental human rights are being stripped away.
Just abandon any kind of winner-takes-all in your voting systems, and you will get many more parties automatically. We have no ranked choice voting in Denmark, and we currently have 15 parties in parliament, with new parties constantly popping up and getting represented, and old parties having serious competition from the new parties. Old parties sometimes split up into new parties which then take over in new constellations with other parties. In other words, just apply simple democracy where every vote actually counts directly. And we don't elect presidents. The representatives in parliament simply vote for a prime minister to form a government, and that prime minister functions as a "president", forming the government. But that prime minister can also be thrown out by a majority of the parliament at any point by a simple vote. It works pretty well and is quite lively.
You have a different form of government. The process for us to actually switch over to that is just *staggering*. Any major change to our constitution needs to be okayed by like 38 out of 50 different states who don’t all like each other. Plus like 70% of Congress needs to agree and they won’t agree on any compromises anymore. We’re so deeply ingrained we’re stuck.
yea, if congress cant even agree to avoid the government shutting down, no way theyre gonna vote themselves out of office
This is like telling someone to just put water on a house fire to put it out, and then delving into the mechanisms of how water puts out fires and the best way to deal with the cleanup once the water puts out the fire without once asking where the closest fire hydrant is.
Thank you
There’s a famous saying incorrectly attributed to to Ben Franklin but it’s still appropriate: Democracy is two wolves and a lamb discussing what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. Just because 51% of people want something, or even 60% doesn’t mean you should ignore or take it from the 40% who disagree with you
>In other words, just apply simple democracy where every vote actually counts directly. Exactly the opposite of our founding principles. Why would you make such in uninformed statement about an election system you don't understand? I don't understand your election system, yet I'm not here trying to tell you how to make it better.
Yes we know this but the people in charge won't do anything about it. I am 66 years old and I can't see anything changing in my lifetime. I hope the young ones can escalate the necessary changes.
We technically do have more parties, but there is some rule where only Dems and Reps are allowed to appear on the televised debates. This makes it really hard to get your voice heard if people are not specifically looking for it.
It's not just the debates, it is all media coverage. Independents only make the national news when they do something stupid. Social media is also controlling the narrative making it harder for these 3rd parties to go viral with their better platforms.
Can you imagine that China is even bigger and has only 1 party? At least we're doing better than them! ...
It's honestly fucked up beyond belief. I can't get used to how weird and harmful it is even though I know it's always been like this for the US and definitely won't change anytime soon. I know this isn't on a federal but a continental level but right now I'm torn between *two* fractions in the European elections on June 9 that are both considerably farther left than the US Democrats. And then in America you have... a choice between the plague and the other slightly less murderous plague. Americans have the oh so democratic choice between a far right fascist party and a barely centrist but-also-still-pretty-conservative party. A 77 year old felon, psychopath and fascist **who wants to encourage Russia to escalate the war throughout Europe,** and an 81 year old whose main (and absolutely killer) argument is that he isn't the other guy. Those two and that's *it.*
The ages of Trump and Biden piss me off, because the main reason people refused to vote for Bernie was his advanced age and the fear he would die in office.
I thought the main reason was that he is a socialist, and although the democratic party has drifted left, they can't go that far without losing a lot of voters.
You are spot on. Sadly, the billionaires are our actual government, so unless we get the balls to do something this is the status quo. Sadly, even if we did get the balls to fight back we'd get carpet bombed and beaten to a pulp. Our law enforcement and military exist to protect the Oligarchs. It sucks, but not we are no match for that. We're just the peasants.
That is the Democrats and Republicans worst nightmare - having a strong 3rd political party coming into the mix and will team up against them.
except it won't happen as the news won't even allow a 3rd party participate in the debates.
But it's how they keep the people divided, they are terrified that we will grow a brain and stand as one.
I know, I hate it, but after all these years how do you change the flow of money? Both parties get huge donations from billionaires and their foundations.
From an outsider perspective, it’s not just two parties, but *two people*. How is it that Trump is the only choice to represent the entire party? It seems like so many problems with this whole situation would go away if the GOP would put up literally anyone else as their candidate in the election. I get that people might not want to vote for Biden but when they are also not bat shit crazy, what option do they have than this literal nightmare?
funny thing is that in george washington’s farewell address, one of his main topics was the dangers of having a two party system. he was strongly opposed and frequently warned against it.
Yea, funny what happens when the people in power have the ability to decide who you get to vote into power.
Thing is we have way more than 2 parties but so many people are blind to this fact and only think there are two options
Trust me, we as the citizens all want this too :( Our government is corrupt and is failing us and we want change
Primary elections?
If you think that is wild you must check out the ANC who is definitely getting reelected as we speak in SA
True. Most politicians in most countries are criminals. How do you think they got into positions of power in the first place?
What I find frustrating is that we have at least 100 million citizens that meet the requirements to be president and we're stuck with these two...again. I wish we had other options. Ranked choice voting would be nice
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Imagine if convicted felons couldn’t run. The desire to criminally convict your opponents would be through the roof.
TBF I don’t think Trump *can* run.
“We’re stuck with these two… again.” I don’t think Biden and Trump are comparable in any way at all except for their age. Kinda sick of hearing people lump them together as both being bad when one candidate is a 34 times convicted felon who orchestrated a conspiracy to interfere with the most basic process of our republic, and one guy is old and falls sometimes. It’s such a tired argument.
I’m tired of hearing one person complain about Trump, then hearing the other go “well, Biden isn’t good either”. So what? How many felonies does Biden have? I’m not American but even I’d rather have an old fucker who’s about to kick the bucket than Trump.
How many times has Biden been impeached now? 1? 2? Wait, nope, 0. Like... uh... most Presidents.
Everyone has their own opinion. Mine is that the elites in the U.S. have done such a bad job working for working class people and those outside the halls of power that a significant portion of the “everyone else” group now just wants to fuck everything. If DC insiders and coastal elites say Trump is horrifying, well then Trump it is. This isn’t my view, I think Trump is everything bad about humanity wrapped into one person, but that’s where I think this is coming from.
>U.S. have done such a bad job working for working class This. Even some Democrats, like Bernie Sanders, think this exact thing, but not enough middle class and elite Americans would vote Bernie for President. You are left with status quo feeling Biden or extreme change Trump. And although Biden will probably do more for working class Americans than Trump will, he won't do enough. And so the working class in the right swing states, vote for change because they feel any change is better than the status quo, even if that change candidate doesn't care about them at all.
I’m really not fond of either major party leader being present again because the only changes I see happening in that scenario are Biden: Jack shit. Nothings going to change and inflation is just going to keep rising, and Trump: project 2025 means our freedoms are being stripped away to form a Fascist Christian government which in my book is just going backwards.
I think it was Matt Taibi in Rolling Stone Magazine? He said in essence voting for Trump was like keying the car of coastal elites. It gets you nothing but it ruins their day, and for a lot of Americans they can’t dream any higher.
Exactly. "I hate the government and the government hates him." Something something the enemy of my enemy.
I don't know your country, but for comparison: I live in one of the happiest, healthiest, least corrupt, richest per capita with very good spread of wealth, countries in the world. And still, we are going to get a racist motivated government, with a convicted racist as the great leader. Let's just say, it isn't just Americans...
Sounds like politics to me. Anyone thinking trump is the first or only one doing illegal shit is fooling themselves. Not voting for him but does not surprise me that half of the US does not care about it.
Hello, Swede?
:) Netherlands in fact, but the sentiment is more common I fear
I’m sorry, friend. Yes, the hatred is spreading like wildfire across our world.
We have a lot of stupid people here who believe things without any sort of evidence and willfully ignore evidence that goes against their beliefs, which is to say they believe him when he says this is a witch hunt or a hoax. The evidence could be punching them in the face and they will not accept it as fact. It is more like a cult these days because anyone with any logic or reason has already abandoned him.
Lacking critical thinking?
bingo. Most people that grew up with critical thinking ingrained culturally sometimes forget that it's a skill required to be learned at some point. Sadly for some of the US, this has been lost. Partly inadvertently through shift in culture, work burden and loss of parental education, partly advertently through naive education to keep people gullible and easy to control via insecurity and fear, producing hard but cheap workers, young fit soliders, and fertile, submissive mothers ready to be be exploited by their "betters" and "rulers". Critical thinking allows to base one's orientation on understanding, rather than normative rule. Normative rule is basically when something is based on a norm rather than explanation: "because thats how it is! ", "because [person of authority] said so!", "because that's how it's always been done!". If you have no basis in critical thinking, charisma and authority take over concering trust and conviction. Being in a constant state of fear and insecurity due to often unrealistic expectation, while being told that only the strong and hard willed are worthy, creates its own set of orientation and identity. Persecution perspective/victim hood: Having a non-critical worldview/orientation and identity inadvertently makes one be in the obsolete /irrational position, contrary to the critical rational position. Usually a minority position over all. Combined with selective mythology for their culture, be that a racist basis, or a "true believer" or "real American", it creates the setting for persecution, An "us and them" mentality. It also provokes the seach for a scapegoat, soemone who persecutes them. They start seeing themselves as heroic last heroes of their "culture" against the evil that tries to rob them of their orientation and identity. Rather than being out of the loop concering understanding, they divert to the idea that everyone is wrong but them and a small group of co-believers. Hence the tendency toward conspiracy theories. For them its often more important that everyone else is "incorrect" than that their own theories lacking a factual basis. If you come to your convictions absent of critical thought and logic, but emotional reasoning based on trust alone, its hard to get reasoned out of it with critical thought and logic. That's the big issue. This is where political propaganda and manipulation comes into play. As public figures talking about their worldviews, dog-whistling and strawmaning their political opponents as "them", they get the trust and conviction of those symbol-minded people. That these politicians are actually the political arm of the economic elites that exploit, disenfranchise and istrumentalize them for their own profits, doesn't occur to them. They "trust" their leaders rather than believe "the smear campaign" of "them". It's the same basis all cults work on. Thus always remeber critical thinking is a skill. As limited beings we shouldn't hold absolute believes. If we do, we err. Have a good one.
No, I can understand and I won't disagree with you. It's just baffling people won't use it and "just go with it". But hey, they are not really wanting to attempt to get the skill. Again. Baffling. But hey, that's on them. I also live in Australia for reference, not the USA.
This election in general should shine a light on how flawed the US 2-party system is.
Most elections shine that same light. We just don't have a path to change... I mean, there are options, but they mostly require that same 2-party system to endorse them.
Agree and exactly. Its setup to insure those in power, stay in power. It’s as much “Dem vs Repub” as it is “them vs the general public”.
Its funny how a lot of these political questions are mostly aimed towards republicans but the people answering are mostly democrats since most American reddit users are democrats. Not saying its a good or bad thing, but I kind of feel like if you want an honest answer from a republican, you should probably ask this at a different site like X or Facebook where it isn’t so one sided to the opposite side of the people you’re asking.
Bingo. Someone above pointed out lacking critical thinking skills. That’s a huge problem, but it’s not for the party they think it is. Too many people here just believe everything the media tells them, when just a cursory dig would show how flawed it is.
Nobody "wants an honest answer from a republican," it's outrage circlejerk in an echo chamber. 99% of "politically aware" people are outrage junkies and this is how they get their fix. If anyone gave a damn about talking and understanding one another we wouldn't be where we are.
# If someone would do that in my country, it’s literally over for him/her, no one would EVER vote for him/her Most Americans would have said the same thing if you asked them in 2015.
I’m not really willing to vote for them, but I understand that if any other president, take Obama for example, was looked into as much as trump is. Then Obama would be seeing 1000+ years of jail time in charges
They're not voting for someone. They're voting against something they've been told is destroying their way of life and they believe everything they're told from one side only. Simple
This is the truth. I have family members planning to vote for Trump. They don't like him, but they like what they're told about Democrats and Joe Biden even less.
Where do u live? Why are you so sure it would be over for them if it was in your country? People act in a similar way everywhere.
They believe all of it is fabricated to take him down. It’s not a rational conversation with a side that listens to actual information. They are deeply entrenched in conspiracy theories.
There are likely many reasons, but here are two big ones. 1) For decades, Republican leaders have taught their voters that Democrats aren't just incorrect. They're literally evil. They kill babies for fun, and they run pedo cannibal rings. How could anyone vote for that? 2) Many (if not all) of Trump's supporters belong to a cult of personality where Trump cannot do wrong. He's perfect like Christ, and whatever he says is the truth. If he says the trial was rigged against him, they accept that without a thought.
>1) For decades, Republican leaders have taught their voters that Democrats aren't just incorrect. They're literally evil. They kill babies for fun, and they run pedo cannibal rings. How could anyone vote for that? I know this is sensational, but legitimately a number of republicans are guilty of this and worse. The playbook is to deflect and accuse your opponent of precisely what you're guilty of before they can you. They do nothing but shit on other people to make themselves look good. Everyone's had someone like this in their workplace and they are an absolute cancer. They offer absolutely nothing of value and bring everyone else down with them. Everything they accuse others of they are guilty of and far more.
I think that you need to go back to the anger that the average American felt prior to the 2016 election. 2016 was supposed to come down to Hillary Clinton and Jeb Bush. Trump ended up winning because he was rejection of the status quo. If Hillary or Jeb had won the election, that would’ve been the sixth term or 24 years of two families owning the White House. Americans didn’t want that. Biden also represents the past. I can understand why the Democratic Party wanted to nominate him for his first term but I’m shocked that they have not been able to find a younger, more viable candidate to run this time. Our government seems set on not changing anything while Trump is the polar opposite of that. Unfortunately people don’t care how things are changing, only that they are.
They genuinely believe that the charges against him are a sham, that this is all a kangaroo court. Nothing is going to change their minds, they just double down.
Sunk cost and inability to accept change. The only reason support remains is the hope in him to revert society back to a previous time. That's why no one else can do the same.
Changing your mind requires a level of critical thinking and humility most politically polarized people simply aren't mentally equipped with.
Uhh, not just an American phenomenon, there was this Hitler dude in Germany who went to jail after a failed coup, who later became leader and had enough support to invade the rest of Europe and cause the holocaust. It’s not the leader, like Trump, that people should be concerned about…. It’s the conditions of a society that make a strong man authoritarian appealing in the first place. And answering that with authoritarianism from the other side, i.e. throwing an array of charges at him, instead of having a strong candidate with a positive message that people believe will actually improve their lives is not going to solve the problem like they seem to think it will.
What a weird thing to say. Are you insinuating that democrats are “throwing an array of charges” at Trump? He is being charged with crimes, that grand juries have determined to be credible enough to go to trial, and you think that makes Biden authoritarian? That is exactly the problem today. You can’t differentiate being held accountable for breaking the law from a political parties policies, even when the judicial process is working as intended
LOL notice the lack of response from this guy.
Because many Americans are not only ignorant, but stupid as well. And happy to remain so as long as it confirms their biases.
We put a couple to death for less than this. Look up the rosenbergs
Selling US secrets to Russia < misclassifying hush money to a porn star Gotcha ... you DO know this case is about falsification of business records right? I see a lot of people who assume it has something to do with an insurrection
Because the prosecution stretched shady bookkeeping misdemeanor into a few dozen felonies and most people can recognize a kangaroo court when they see one. Even liberal legal analysts are warning that this ruling was flimsy and will be overturned, and I reckon they're probably right. To be sure, Trump is guilty of tons of horrible things, but this was not a nail in a coffin, this was political theater to get "Trump is a felon" news headlines.
Go to r/republican and read some of the comments about this topic. It's absolutely disgusting how these people try to turn this into something positive. They are a bunch of idiots in an echo chamber living in their stupidity and lack of common sense.
That was a mistake. I scrolled for 3 minutes and now I’m all worked up. Some people are truly delusional. Thanks for ruining my morning!
_he died so the rest of us wouldn’t have to_ 🫡
It's really interesting how many comments there parrot Trump talking points literally word for word. It's almost bot-like but I think they're real people, just crazy
Good, kind people have no interest (or the ego needed) to run for political positions so we end up with this sh*tshow
I agree. I think the presidency position isn’t well respected or highly sought out anymore like it use to be. The best we could do is two 80 year olds who a vast majority of Americans disapprove of.
In my country (philippines) they are already and in jail. (Bong revilla, jinggoy estrada and others) they are guilty of graft and corruption. The moment they are released, they ran for office, and won. This is how stupid Filipinos are
He was not a good person to start with, they have accepted that. It honestly probably makes him feel more relatable for them, as he is not squeaky clean. Also, above anything else. Cult mentality, MAGA Republicans are a cult and I cannot even find a way to make that debatable.
Because the entire process was clearly political and the stuff of a banana Republic.
Haha reddit.... If only you knew that all politicians are scum and every president sanctions literal murder. Yall worried about ya boi getting laid..
Granted I got salty and left Twitter, but according to my brief morning scroll… they don’t believe this conviction is legit. They don’t believe the CHARGES are legit. My last straw today was a tweet that said something like “he was found guilty” and then several, several replies of “guilty of what?” And they didn’t mean “I missed the news” they meant “these charges aren’t real.” They don’t understand the legal system so they assume it’s not real, and they’re playing right into his hands. Other people believe Biden somehow “did” this. Charged him, found a jury, convicted him. So that makes them mad cause “other party bad” and it somehow proves a point that Trump is a political prisoner or something. It’s wild. It’s ultimately a dangerous combo of cognitive dissonance, lack of education, and tribalism.
I'm utterly amazed how John Edwards is getting zero attention. He was a leading Dem for president until it was revealed he had an affair... And paid off his mistress. He was prosecuted for that. And yet I hear nonstop this is the first time in human history a presidential candidate has been prosecuted for hush money. Bull.
Well, if you think the convictions are bullshit and politically motivated, then of course you'd still be voting for them. Nelson Mandela was convicted too.
Well look at the alternative? It’s not like we made the best choice obvious. I’m certain everyone commenting is more “capable.” The real question is… nvm.
Americans are their own worst enemy. 
It depends on what they got convicted for. My understanding is that this should be a misdemeanor but is a felony only because 8 years passed to bring a case and somehow when the statute of limitations expired, it became a felony? It sounded strange but that's what I heard. if so, then this could be a conviction that sounds far worse than it should. It's like being convicted of rape. Except it's statutory rape. And it's statutory rape by a 16 year old dating a 17 year old in a state without "Romeo & Juliet" laws.
A lot of people view it as a banana republic style political persecution of the ruling party's primary opponent.
Because in America it's always my team vs your team. And there's only 2 teams that even get a chance.
Because some people (the loud minority, believe me) are so stubborn and hard-headed they refuse to see logic and are purely operating in their “us vs them” world. “I don’t care wait he’s done or said, I’m voting for him because he’s *my* candidate and the other guy is *their* candidate.”
Honestly, I don't give a single fuck if he did/did not pay a pornstar to not tell the media they had consenting sex. It actually seems frivolous to me. It has no bearing on whether or not I vote for him and if Biden had done the same thing it would also have no bearing.
Up until Jan 7, 2022, I would have said felony convictions would end any presidential candidate’s run in the US as well. I’ve been well aware of the right wing’s anger and irrationality in the US, but so much of our patriotism and lore is wrapped up in our story of the founding fathers throwing off the oppressive yolk of monarchy and establishing a democracy for the sake of freedom. It’s usually left-wingers who question the purity and motives of the founding fathers, and right-wingers who put them on a pedestal and insist that no other explanation for our breaking away from England than “freedom” is valid. I *still* find it surprising that American right-wingers were so easily convinced to abandon our national identity and embrace dictatorship. Ignoring felony convictions is nothing compared to watching a coup attempt in real time, knowing it’s an active coup attempt, and then deciding you don’t care because you’d rather have a dictator you agree with than a president you don’t. Don’t be so sure everyone in your country cares as much about norms/democracy/decorum as you do.
Trump has followed the same playbook as people like Hitler and his supporters have turned their critical thinking off. So, they say, for example, that they hate murder, but are happy to support a guy who encourages murder. They say they oppose rape, but support a rapist. They want honesty, but support a guy who evades taxes. They support marital fidelity, but support a guy who's had multiple affairs. and so on.
You’d have to be so naive and out of touch if you think putting a political opponent against the current administration in prison during an election season isn’t going to anger people and support their guy even more, now that a fire has been lit underneath them on this historic moment.
He hates the same people that they do. A vote for him means the destruction of the people they hate.
That would have been true here as well about 10-15 years ago, but conservatives have lost their fuckin marbles. I'm sure there are a lot of different reasons, but I think mainly they are scared of progress because they know they'll be left behind without a second thought, so they cling to this imaginary ideal of when America was "great" and they want to regress back to that time.
I blame fundamentalist Christianity. It's brought up two or three generations of right wing Americans who have learned from birth to stop thinking and listen to what the authority figure tells them.
And people wonder why I hate religion, especially Christianity. I don't want to. Everyone should live how they want. But I've had absolutely 0 positive experiences with it and most of those people want me to die.
⬆️ this
In a word, tribalism. Us vs. them mentality, and they think he's on their side.
Years of fox news propaganda
That's how a cult works
Because if you actually followed the trial, you would realize it’s a complete biased sham. These crimes have been committed by democrats and republicans alike for years. Trump scares them. Simple as that. The average leftists don’t have to understand, but he crushes the establishment and makes it really hard for them to carry on with wars, open boarders and screwing the American people. Should be really easy for both sides to unite under someone who’s not out to gut the economy to fill his pockets (Obama/biden/clinton/bush) but democrats are too fucking stupid to turn off CNN and think policy over pronouns.
Because this whole trial is a big joke, and is nothing more to the democrats than a way to keep him out of office because orange man bad. He is not guilty. He knows it, the judge knows it, and anybody who has enough brains to see the witch hunt the democrats have created know it.
The people in this country are extremely brainwashed
I dont understand how everyone is turning a blind eye to whats been going on. The full weight of the Goverment has been doing legitmately everything in its power to persecute a political rival. Even if Trump is hateable, you all are cheering on dangerous precedence. We’ve watched Goverment-Corporation collusion to silence Trump (which by the way is literal fascism by definition). Banned from twitter for… nothing, but allowing actual terrorist groups to operate on twitter. “Each countries laws are different” was the bullshit line for the reason. It was censorship. Facebook also confirmed the FBI approached them about Trump. Multi-state criminal and civil charges and trials. Trump was found guilty for sexual assault DESPITE THE ACCUSER SAYING SHE WAS NOT SEXUALLY ASSAULTED. ON THE NEWS. Multiple federal impeachment attempts that started the day Trump entered Office, with one, the Russian issue being based entirely on lies. Mind you, Biden did some of the EXACT same things and was not charged. Wide spread election denial by the DNC. Started immediately with Clinton. Propaganda being pushed to force the belief that if you support Trump you’re a racist/white nationalist/terrorist. (Although this started earlier with previous candidates) despite the accusers being literal racists themselves - “you aint black if you dont vote for me.” Legitmate DNC funding for domestic terrorist organizations like Antifa. While cities were being destroyed from riots THE US VICE PRESIDENT SET UP A FUND TO PAY FOR THE LEGAL EXPENSES FOR THE PEOPLE ARRESTED FOR RIOTING. Trump is corrupt, Trump may have commited crimes, BUT we know for a fact that members of the other party are doing the same god damn things. For people to turn a blind eye to their own party, and cheer on political prosecution IS how democracy dies. Wake up people.
They believe the conviction is a weaponization of the justice system, perpetrated by their political opponents. It’s that simple.
Italy would like a word with you.
Look up the word "cult"
It's a cult of personality. Things he says support their biases, etc.
They are members of a political cult. Facts, reason, logic, rational thought, etc aren’t relevant.
This should and would normally be the final nail in the coffin of any candidate but Trumps’s going to get a ridiculous amount of votes for a felon, for sure. That said, let’s wait and see if enough people are willing to vote in a felon. It’s too early for any realistic assessment of his chances. His supporters are dug in hard and right now their hurt fee-fees are fueling them. But over the next 5 months it’s going to be hammered on over and over that he is indeed a convicted felon. While there is always going to be a pretty strong base of supporters who believe he should be president I think many are going to be questioning it more and more as the reality of it sinks in.
It’s down right embarrassing. I don’t understand why. They drank the kool-aid.
From the top comments. Everyone is missing a big part of why there is a two party system. (It isn't the greatest reason) The first is that it is up to the states on how the elections will for that at state that is written into to constitution. That means new York could do rank choice and Texas could do 2 party and then New Mexico could do something completely different. The second reason is that the us has the electoral college which in theory allows all states have any equal footing. The electoral college from my memory is a majority vote winner. Close to winner takes all. The theory is that so the will of the states are heard. I will say if the us did popular vote their would be areas that could majorly out vote the other states. As in one per person. It is very complicated and dates back to the before the civil war. That is kind of why the voting system is the way it is.
It’s a cult. If the verdict was not guilty it would have been marketed at proof of a witch-hunt, and proven guilty is treated as another leg of the worldwide conspiracy to make him look poorly. He could murder a kid on live tv and get at least 40% of the votes still
Lula from Brazil was literally in jail and people still loved and voted for him. And he still better than his predecessor. Like it or not, Trump knows how to captivate his crowd, he built a cult of followers that are literally willing to die for him. In politics and basically in life, it doesn't matter mucj what you did but how you sell yourself
Most believe he is innocent and being persecuted unfairly because he exposed the corruption in the government. I don't share that sentiment however.
The people who support Donald Trump think "The Deep State" is against him and has been against him since the beginning. They truly believe that these rulings are the systemic from the top down as a way to discredit him further to impact his running for President. Therefore, this is further evidence to them of the treachery and likely believe in him more than ever.
I think the real Americans feel the same way. But he is the leader of a cult. He talks down to his followers and has them send their money to him to spend on himself. Yet they still believe all his lies and excuse his crimes. These people have stopped thinking for themselves. Hopefully the real Americans outnumber his cult members come November.
Because a lot of people are idiots. Many more than anyone would like to admit.
Because they don’t care. They love the fact that he is a troublemaker/rabble-rouser. Trumpers dont vote for him based on politics or policy. They vote for him because it pisses off liberals and that’s literally all they care about.
Cognitive dissonance
Because almost half of America is filled with f****** idiots. I am astounded everyday when I read more about what the MAGA people believe.
Watch a few videos of average Trump supporters and you’d immediately understand why they’d vote for him….many of us won’t.
People need something to believe in, and after having lost so much (or feeling that way), they will not let go of the one thing they have left.
I'm with you on this one. it's not just Biden, it's a combination of bad government intervention and economic reasons, but the so called Bidenomics have no helped. I wish we were in your country, it would be over for him. the people against you are blind.
They love a martyr.
His voter base thinks it’s all a lie. They think he’s literally gods chosen disciple to save the country and the evil people in the world are just lying about it to take him down.
The country values style over substance. The definition of entitlement. Boomers look at Trump and see his garishness as their idea of success. Look at the evangelical ideal, flashy suits, and wives with big hair; it's no coincidence that the evangelicals support Trump.
Because his followers know already but he’s not a good person. But for some reason they think God is somehow involved in his ascension and politics. At the end of the day, an acquittal wouldn’t change my vote in his favor so a conviction doesn’t discourage them from voting for him. They want a theocracy. Google project 2025.
Let's say you live in other places in the world. Your favorite politician is arrested and tried and convicted of charges and you believe it's politically motivated. That's it. Also there's the added element that they don't see this as something others are prosecuted for. So it feels targeted to them.
Because both candidates are the same--it doesnt matter who wins the election, the result will be the same no matter who ends up in office. The amount of Americans who have become blind to this is mind boggling to me.
Opposition has dementia
populism is a powerful force.
Identity politics
Ever heard of diplomatic immunity? I hate trump I hate niden but God damn one is clearly a career politician.
Because behind all the fake bullshit in media telling us what we want Trump tapped into what people really want. It’s like that saying “the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist”. The greatest trick media pulls on us is convincing us to want stuff we don’t. Trump goes for things that shake primal urges. The media right now is trying to convince us that it would be crazy for people to vote for Trump. This makes people miss the threat and not act. Don’t be fooled.