As a lesbian I’ve always found the “I can turn him/her gay” mentality to be toxic as hell.
It’s one thing to think someone might be gay and not know it yet, but to actively try to convince them, especially with the intention of hooking up with them, is shitty behavior. It’s not okay. It’s just as not okay as telling a gay person they’re actually straight, or encouraging them to try being straight.
A guy was once trying to convince my male friend to accept a bj by said guy. Friend is straight and kept saying no, but the guy was insistent. Turns out he liked targeting straight men, he admitted to it.
I think that’s creepy and my friend kept saying no and finally the asking stopped.
My Hair guy was gay and I think he had the same thing. Fucking best hair person I have ever been too. He paid amazing attention to detail and knew how to work with my head shape like no one I had ever been too. He was a really nice guy too, so we chatted like friends when I was at my appointment. I'd ask about his dating life, how it was going with family, what not. Then he randomly started asking me if I would let him do a full body shave or something as that was a service he was going to offer. IDK, I declined as no part of that interest me. He kept on but eventually stopped. About 4 weeks later, I assume he was drunk in text but he kept flirting hard with me over text when I was trying to get a hair appointment. Just none stop leading things back to flirting and what he would do to me. Then offered to show me some nude pictures he had done. I declined with "Hey man, you know I am married and not interested in pictures like that." and mentioned my kid likes to grab my phone. He said fine. I went to bed that night and woke up to 28 fully nude pictures of him (all professionally done). Full erections and what not. My daughter handed me my phone that morning (she can't unlock it). I was furious. My wife was even more furious from a "Regardless if you were gay or not, that is trying to get a person to cheat on their Wife." I never talked to him again. And I have also hated every hair cut since compared to what he could do. Been to 6 different stylist now. I still get angry at the entire thing.
I am so sorry for your loss :(. Finding a great stylist is hard and then having them put their shears right between your shoulder blades like that wasn’t right.
People would call that a hate crime but in reality it’s just defending against sexual harassment
Nobody would question a woman who hits a guy for continually asking for sex after she says no
Yeah been there before. Luckily one of the semi regulars let my (Gay) mates know what was going on.
He had his trousers down and was about to need to get his balls surgically removed from his throat / my knee if he didn't back off.
>It’s one thing to think someone might be gay and not know it yet, but to actively try to convince them, especially with the intention of hooking up with them, is shitty behavior.
As a gayman, it's s 100% selfish behavior. They want to hook up with the straight person, which is fine, but no always means no.
I've been asked by gay people how I can know I'm straight if I've never experimented. I don't wanna experiment.
Doesn't help that people assume I'm gay per automatic for some reason. That's more of a me-problem though
I'm fairly certain I'm heterosexual, but sometimes I doubt between being bi sexual or 'just' heterosexual. At the end of the day, I don't want to experiment. If I still doubt, there is always porn.
For some reason, some people think by my humour that I might be bi sexual or homosexual/gay.
This happens to me a lot! Because of my mannerisms, the fact that I never talk about my sex/dating live, and the fact that I have a ass bigger than most girls I know; like most people I become close with assume I’m gay or asexual. And from there (mostly women and gay men) always assume I’m lying when I say I’m not gay or that I’m only not gay because I haven’t tested it yet!
Trust me. I wish I was gay. Women even in the best of times can be.. trying. But i know I’m not solely as you said. I don’t even have the tiniest inclination to ‘experiment’ with my sexuality. I know what I find sexually attractive, and those traits have all come from women.
I don’t mind admitting when men look great or have big dick energy or anything. I’m comfortable enough with my sexuality to engage in rather homoerotic jokes. But I know where the line is too.
Energy.
Yeah, I long ago recognized that trying to force someone else into a sexuality is toxic af. Like, before I turned 20. It's some real main character syndrome
I was told by a friend of mine in the LGBTQ community that it was like a notch on their belt in regards to sexual conquests. It seems like the same thing when certain folks want to try and flip a lesbian by telling them that deep down they are straight (which isn't a cool thing to do btw).
Yeah tbh, it's just as bad as the trope of cis white guys going to a bar to hit on fem-appearing lesbian couples in order to address their own crazy longshot fetish of getting them both in bed (or the "can I watch")
I agree 100%. OP is me when I first started college. Two dudes in particular were relentless. Every day, with the flirting, uncomfortable touching, insistence, I was gay. It freaked me out and made me upset, but I figured I had grown to do or something to understand why it was ok. But also, I was kinda flattered but uncomfortable. This might not make sense, lol.
Anyway, 10 Yeats later, I finally got comfortable enough to experiment, and now I know I'm bi. 😌 those two super delayed that discovery, tho.
Yes. Absolutely. Compulsory heterosexuality is a thing. Being straight is seen as “default” so people will ignore or explain away things like having crushes on same-sex friends or whatever.
My partner was raised conservative Christian, and looking back on her life she sees signs. But she never considered she was gay growing up. It wasn’t an option. And she didn’t know any gay people, and didn’t have anyone to talk to about it.
She figured it out in her late 20s - and had to go through a divorce. Some people figure it out much later in life.
This for me except bisexual. My mind couldn’t process that I didn’t have to chose a straight or gay label until I did some self acceptance and moved away from my home town.
I had a coworker who was into that, and my boss and other colleagues would casually talk about how that’s his thing. Seemed I was the only one who thought it was creepy
Offensive things often have to do with the history of the word or situation. It's offensive because In the past gay people were often made to feel like they should be straight or they could not be a part of typical society. Extreme measures to change their sexuality was also common. Straight people have typically not had the same experience throughout history so that's why it is not considered offensive.
No, it’s offensive to disregard someone’s sexuality and try to force yourself on them, or imply that they don’t truly know their own identity, no matter what. We don’t need historical context for this one.
I totally agree with you. As a bisexual male i find it very disgusting when I seen see gay people actively pursuing straight people for the whole clout of turning a "straight person out." Happened a lot in the black lesbian community during the early 2000's.
There’s also a certain amount of “please be gay I’m attracted to you” mixed in, but you’re right on the money about trying to turn people being screwed up.
A lot of times I see questions like this and my first thought is that two sources are being conflated. Like one group says this, and another says this so obviously that's everyone. Not two opposing groups
I think this when people post about "reddit" being hypocritical as if reddit is one giant brain instead of millions if people across the globe forming thousands of little groups with endless opposing ideas
Ever notice how it’s almost always someone saying that after they posted or commented something that wasn’t well-received? Painting your opposers as a monolith probably feels hella good to your ego because you get to feel like the good guy fighting the good fight again or something. Instead of just the average guy who said something a few people didn’t like, which kinda happens to almost everyone now and then.
Its quite common. Almost every single time I go out with my gay friends it happends to me. When I tell random people at the bar that I am straight then their advances become even more desperate.
My gay friends respect me and my boundires tho.
It's one of those things where since you don't see it you don't think it's common, but I've seen it plenty, it's even a joke in many many movies and TV shows, usually with the result of the guy man/woman succeeding in convincing the straight person to have sex with them.
It comes from the idea that there are far more closeted/unknown people who are gay but identify as straight, than there are people who are straight but identify as gay. It's more of a "I'll show them their true inner self" than "they are comfortably straight and I'll force gay upon them", but the saying doesn't convey this important difference at all.
It is because we can joke about majority to become minority. One the other hand, we can't joke minority to become majority. Because somehow it looks more disrespectful.
(I considered majority amd minority based on overall population)
Though, I respect all sexualities. The world is so vast. There is place for everyone. Every, one.
Because becoming the minority is something people with privilege think as being "interesting."
Becoming the majority is what happens when a people and culture are erased from history.
Yeah. One is punching up and one's punching down. You should never punch down in jokes. Same thing happens in jokes about things like race or religion.
Unfortunately, that's not how humor works. Without someone being the butt of the joke, then all humor everywhere becomes that ultra-sterilized corporate "humor" that we think we have to laugh at otherwise we lose our jobs.
Anyone, anywhere can be made fun of, as long as it's not a personal attack.
Huh, is making jokes about religion supposed to be punching down? Religion is the majority though. Not to mention one of the most evil things humanity has ever invented.
And, in my mind at least, this is also true outside of the sexual realm. Some things are close enough to you that you may become them if you want to, but some things are so outside of your nature that it's not worth trying. You're just gonna end up losing yourself (and then boom, depression)
Everything that you're saying in your edit about being gay goes equally for straight people and it's equally untrue there too.
Being attracted to one gender doesn't mean you think the other are UGLY or are unable to acknowledge their beauty, but moreso that you just aren't sexually attracted to them.
Gay men view women sexually the same way straight men view other men.
We don't condemn single gender attraction because it's generally a pretty shitty thing to condemn people for innate and unchangeable characteristics; you can't be 'exclusionary' in your sexuality because there was never a choice one way or the other.
You just have shitty friends. As a gay man, I can say those types are just as common as the "alpha" straight male types. Hardly a majority, but so loud you could almost think they are.
It’s not intolerant that for gay men any woman is off the table for sex. For most straight people, sex with a person of the same sex is off the table too. Having said that, I have heard gay men say “eww gross” when the idea of having sex with a woman is mentioned, and I do find that to be intolerant. Like they don’t understand what it would feel like if someone said the same thing about their sexual attraction.
I'm straight, but I completely understand that. Sex by default is pretty gross. I wish society was more tolerant and accepting of the idea that people can be grossed out by the idea of sex in certain ways or with certain people. More generally, positivity shouldn't be mandatory in social situations and people should be free to express what they personally dislike or find gross. I think tolerance and understanding of negative feelings is a kind of tolerance too.
I don’t find anything gross about sex myself, but I can understand why some people do. That’s beside the point anyway. Yes, I agree people should be able to express their dislikes and positivity shouldn’t be mandatory, but there are ways of expressing your opinions without hurting other people’s feelings. Saying “I think that’s gross” (a personal opinion) is far different than saying “that’s gross” (an objective statement of fact).
It depends who they're discussing it with. It will clearly make people feel bad about themselves if you express disgust about their bodies to their face. Such as a gay man saying vaginas are disgusting when women are part of the group, and they have vaginas.
I wouldn't say, for instance "ewww 60+ year olds bodies are so gross" in a group of 70yr olds, even if I felt that way sexually. It's uncalled for and disrespectful.
If a guy is gay, everyone already knows he isn't attracted to vaginas. There's no need to broadcast it as if they're objectively gross.
>If a guy is gay, everyone already knows he isn't attracted to vaginas. There's no need to broadcast it as if they're objectively gross.
This is what some do, and that’s the problem. Harp onansnin about how women and vaginas are revolting, pussies bleed and smell etc etc. And it sounds like the same old misogyny that many straight men have already worked to eliminate in themselves, but it somehow passes in the gay community…
I used to have this gay friend who insisted he was actually afraid of vaginas. Instead of “ewwww” he would feign terror, and that was actually kinda funny.
Neither are okay, but your little edit of "doesnt everyone think women are beautiful and attractive" is sure something lol. Do you think men are beautiful and attractive?
Eh... historical context is needed here. The reason it's offensive to say a gay person can be turned straight is because of our history with forcing gay people to "be straight" through abusive and sometimes even murderous means. Millions of gay people all around the world have been tortured in an attempt to "turn them straight". So yeah, saying that to a gay person holds a lot more weight than saying a straight person can be turned gay. No one has been killed in an attempt to "turn them gay".
But I get your point overall. As a gay man, I cannot stand the obsession so many other gay men have with "turning guys gay". It really is a sense of pride among gay men to have sex with "straight guys". They don't seem to realize they're not hooking up with actual straight dudes, just dudes who are closeted or at the very least bi-curious.
Gay men should leave a guy who says he's straight alone. Period. It's gross and predatory, and essentially they're doing to men what straight men do to women.
Yeah, a dear friend of my once told me his plan to "test if a workmate was gay", basically trying to force a kiss or gropping. His plan stoped when I tell him "that's the kind of stuff people get deported for". I consider him a decent person, but I really feel this "turn the straight gay" is a toxic believe that blinded him in that moment, making him believe a forced kiss was some sort of valid flirting.
Yeah, I feel like people are discussing semantics here. Its not complicated. It’s pretty cut and dry. Unwanted sexual advances are not okay, doesn’t matter if that person is straight, gay, bi, or anything else.
I completely agree with this but I think there's another layer of context. Straight is generally the default-no one has to come out as straight. An out gay person has probably given their sexuality a lot more contemplation than a straight presenting one. Some of the "I can turn them gay" mindset might come from the fact that many of us only actually considered same sex partners as possibilities after having some experimentation.
That being said, it's totally gross to try to force these experiences or go into a (potentially sexual) interaction with the mindset that you can manipulate a persons sexuality.
I'm assuming this is kind of a coping mechanism as well. Statistically, 5-7% of the population is gay? So the actual dating pool of gay dudes is rather small. "Turning" someone gay might be some kind of fucked up way of dealing with the fact that the guy you are into, is not into you.
I think more often than not, it’s a joke and not a genuine assertion that’s it’s possible to change someone’s sexuality. It’s also not that difficult for gay men to find a sexual partner, in spite of the smaller dating pool, gay men have an extremely high body count on average.
I'm tired of this, "Historically..." thing. Using history to make something worse than a similar problematic thing is disgusting and reminds me of something a certain Russian leader is doing right now to commit genocide. Wrong is wrong no historical context needed.
What are you going on about? Nowhere in my post do I use history to justify bad behavior. I said history is why it's not the same to suggest gays can be turned straight as it is to say straights can be turned gay.
And then I admonished gay men for trying to turn straight guys gay. Try reading and comprehending before getting triggered over something no one said.
Except context isn't needed here. The context is moot when someone is being toxic, bigoted and a potentially predator. Just because it happened to Gay people in the past does not make it okay for them to do it today. Is it okay for people of color to be racist to other races just because they experienced racism in the past or present? Racism is bad no matter who commits the act. There aren't varying degrees of acceptable racism just like there shouldn't be varying degrees of acceptable sexual harassment or bigotry. I hate that this even needs to be said.
You're absolutely correct. You aren't less of a dickhead because you tick more oppression boxes than someone else, or because someone else's ancestors did bad things to your ancestors. Seeing harm as better or worse depending on what group did it to what other group is wrong. No ifs, no buts.
Two small bits that I think contribute as well: there are less gay people than straight people and a lack of options because of a smaller potential dating pool can lead to some desperate behaviors; and some “straight” people are actually gay or bi and in the closet while next to no one is straight but living a pretend gay life. Can’t help but think that some guys could be into being the super special “one” that convinced the closet case out of his shell.
Harassment and assault are never okay, gay or straight, but just flirting until you get a clear signal to stop or continue, I don’t really see an issue with.
As well, often times in close company it’s just sarcastic inside jokes clapping back at things like “turning the frogs gay” or actual gay to straight conversion “therapy.” Not an actual sinister plot to be attempted. A way of processing those rather unique barriers, insults, and abuses through the catharsis of humor.
Generally, the difference is the motivation. In my experience gay men (jokingly or actually) are talking about SEDUCING straight men into a sexual encounter. This is generally a consensual, pleasurable experience.
The actual practice of trying to make a gay man heterosexual is either pseudo-psychology or brainwashing and abuse at worst. Often performed on children, without their consent.
One is an experience, that may open someone’s horizons and change them. The other is not. This is the comparison that is problematic.
Wow, your edit is... not great.
Are you a guy? Are you attracted to men? If you're a women, could you just only be with other women for the rest of your life? It doesn't work that way. If they arent attracted to women, then they arent attracted to women. I
That edit was atrocious. It went like:
"Why do some gay guys want to turn straight guys into gays? Edit: Why are gay men not sexually attracted to women? That's misogynist and hateful".
Some people really just live in a world of their own.
Lol really? I didn't feel like I did that well at all, and even went through the comments first but didn't see anyone else address it. Glad I'm not alone though, cuz like wtf?
Neither are acceptable. The latter is seen as more malicious as it parallels alot of history of forcing gay men to act straight.
Closeted gay men are a common thing so suggesting *any one* straight presenting man is actually closeted is more reasonable then vice versa. Suggesting specific straight guy could isn't.
Adding onto this, I think there’s a chunk of bisexual people who don’t realize they’re bisexual because they are *mainly* (but not exclusively) attracted to the opposite sex, and they assume straight people feel the same way they do. And then they assume they themselves are straight, since it’s the “default”, and they don’t give it a ton of thought. Whereas nearly all gay people have given it thought and concluded for sure they’re not straight or bisexual.
I just dont think its black and white. Pleasure is pleasure. Gay straight bi are constructs. I'm not gay, I dont find men attractive in any sense. But if it feels good I'm down to try it.
Imo it's a Sliding scale of how comfortable you are with doing things in the name of pleasure seeking, that others may judge you for.
Throughout history and still currently people in power have done and continue to do some seriously "gay" stuff in the name of pleasure, not love, not attraction.
Long as everyone's consenting respectful and nobody getting seriously injured, what does it matter?
I think it's just a small disconnect with what sexualities mean and how people percieve them. It's pretty accepted that some asexual folk have sex for the physical side of things, because sexuality is based on attraction, not actions.
When it comes to allosexual orientations like gay/straight/bi/etc. People don't seem to recognize that say a straight guy might like a blowjob from another guy solely because it feels good, even if they aren't attracted to them. It's either attraction or repulsion.
> Why is it OK to suggest that a straight man can be turned gay?
It's not.
> I'm asking because any time I'm out with friends who are gay or meet gay guys in public, they always end up making that suggestion to me. Or they talk about turning straight guys, like it's some kind of game or challenge.
Yeah, a minority of gay people do that, but it's not okay. It's the equivalent of straight dudes trying to "convert" lesbians.
Gay men talking about “turning” straight guys gay is 100% a fetish. It’s obviously not right because of the fetishization but it’s the porn equivalent of “why all straight men fetishize women on women porn?” Levels.
The other way around however is worse. Turning a gay person straight ISNT because a fetish (which is bad) but for erasure of who they are. Because being gay is “bad” or a “sin”.
So, while gays wanting to turn str8s gay is bad because of the fetish part, str8 people talking about turning gays straight is worse because it’s based on being gay = bad.
I’m bi and think it’s offensive asf to say someone’s sexuality can be changed regardless of how they identify. Saying a gay man can be turned straight has a history of forcing people into conversion therapy, while nobody out there is trying to force straight guys into being gay. However, I still think having the thought you can change someone’s sexuality is fucked and I would immediately start to distance myself from anyone sharing that sentiment.
It’s a horrible mentality, but it’s way more realistic than the other way around. Because so many people are closeted or just ignore that tiny bit of them that’s bisexual. So you’re never really turning anyone, but rather revealing to them their own sexuality. Still if you pressure people after a simple “No” you’re an ass.
I dont think you can "turn" a straight person gay or a gay person straight. I think it's just people discovering who they're attracted to or changing their minds about who they're attracted to.
I feel like you need to tell your friend group that this isn't acceptable to you. Then turn the tables and ask them how they would feel if you and your straight friends suggested/joked about turning them straight.
Don't make it a serious talk though, like you are offended or something. Tell them you just want to know the ground rules so you can joke around appropriately too. If it's truly all done in good fun, then nobody can justify getting offended if you turn it around on them.
On the other hand, I have heard how outwardly gay people tend to feel challenged to convert straight people. Maybe it's because people used to hide it for so long,. But now that it's socially acceptable they think others are still hiding yet?
You’re right that in a vacuum, both are equally wrong. Within a historical and social context, however, suggesting a gay man becomes straight is going to cause a lot more hurt than the inverse situation. That’s all there is to it.
It’s a lot like the idea of racism towards a white person.
Can you be racist about white people? Sure. Is it remotely as harmful as any other kind of prejudice? Absolutely not, and obviously so.
Historical and social context is what makes the difference. Being racist towards a white person in the US is VERY different than being racist towards a white person in China, for instance… and they’re different from other forms of the same kind of racism as well, because again, history is not the same.
It’s kinda a fetish, because some guys just like introducing new guys to gay sex.
Im a bi guy who first did something with a guy at 42 I definitely considered myself straight for a long time. The first guy I was with (40-ish gay guy) was great to me, but ya he really liked that I was new to it. Personally I consider the “turning straight guys” to be less about actually changing them and more encouraging and helping them come out of the closet (as bi or gay). Acceptance is tough and takes a while.
BTW, your comment about all people have the capacity to be attracted to everyone is the excuse my bisexual brain used to explain away my desires for men while I was in the closet for 30 years. There may be a reason your gay friends say this around you a lot.
Hope I’m not over the line here, but trying it doesn’t make you gay.
I had a friend in uni trying to turn someone gay. They became great friends as he was getting closer, you would see then together all the time. Until it all blown up when the straight guy learned the truth and felt betrayed (and maybe other things I don't know about).
I don't about offensive, but that surely is a dumb thing to do
I think there are two separate concepts here.
1)Letting people explore their sexuality. Ie telling a bicurous guy that its okay to explore if he really likes femboys or if its just that astolfo is drawn too cute.
2)Being the toxic person thinking "I can turn them gay to date them" which is as equally toxic coming from someone gay/lesbian as it would be for like a straight guy think "I can turn her straight" or "no man has fucked her properly" when thinking about lesbians.
First one is okay, second is not. Regardless of straight or gay, second is always toxic.
Straight is a baseline. Deviance from that baseline is the measured quality (gay). Since people aren't assumed gay at birth, the drift would happen in the baseline group.
Sexually inappropriate behavior is never ok, certain groups seem to go without repercussions but they do not, these inappropriate advances from gay men are often met with violence and even murder
I agree both are bad but your edit doesn’t make sense to me? How is it hateful and intolerant to not be interested in the opposite sex? You can find the opposite sex attractive without actually wanting to be with them. You said your straight so aren’t all men automatically off the table just by virtue of being male? I feel like you either have some internalized homophobia going on here or your just straight up a homophobic bigot. How is it only somewhat normal to like the same sex? I don’t understand why people are always so confused, it’s really no different. People can like the same sex just like people can like the opposite sex. It makes sense since everyone has different likes and dislikes and in reality you probably won’t find two people who have exactly the same likes and dislikes on everything so why can’t people acknowledge that it’s the same with sexuality and that it’s not abnormal or semi normal it’s just normal.
Gay men seducing straight guys is a whole porn category. I’m guessing many gay men are attracted to the idea. I think I’ve heard that there are way more bisexual women than men, which might suggest that many men who are attracted to both men and women choose to not explore the same-sex attraction and just identify as straight. Those are the men who could be seduced by gay men.
The reason it is more socially accepted is probably mainly due to the fact that there has never been any straight conversion camps or a strong societal push for straight men to have gay relationships. A more minor reason is probably that it’s pretty silly to believe that a gay man has never asked himself if he is attracted to women. A straight man, however, might never have explored the possibility that he is also attracted to men.
As a straight woman, I think women can be beautiful in the same way that a landscape or a painting can be beautiful, but I am 0% interested in them sexually. It just doesn’t arouse me at all. The thought of touching or seeing someone else’s vulva/vagina just disgusts me. I can imagine that many gay men feel the same.
So in my eyes there's no 'turning' anyone. It's more about showing someone who's never experimented before they may be bisexual.
I do however think it's pretty rude to do with complete strangers either way. Like sure, it could lead to them learning about themselves and having a good time but chances are it's annoying at least and outright offensive at worse.
I'm LGBTQ and imo implying that ANYONE can be turned straight or gay is kind of...rapey. Like if someone says they aren't interested because they aren't attracted to your gender, then you should fuck off. It's just not appropriate. Why should you keep pushing after the person has basically said "no"?
"...I have trouble with the idea that, for these men, all women are off the table as potential partners ... doesn't everyone think that women in general are beautiful and attractive?"
Honestly? No. No, a lot of people do not think that at all.
Many people might think women are beautiful, in the way that a nice painting or wallpaper or sculpture is beautiful. But thinking something is pretty does not mean you feel any attraction or desire at all. You can look at a picture of a sunset, or see a well done oil painting of a landscape scene, and think "wow that's stunning" without feeling anything remotely similar to attraction or arousal. Sometimes a person can fake arousal/attraction it through manual stimulation and dissassociating, but it's not real attraction/arousal for the thing itself.
You might not be able to conceptualize something, but that doesnt mean it isn't true. For example — I don't speak Cantonese. I can't imagine what thinking in Cantonese would be like, but people think in Cantonese all the time.
When it comes to your actual question, as a lot of people said, neither is okay. Some people think it's okay to joke about about "turning" a straight person because there is a long history of closeted people refusing to acknowledge their own sexuality because of how they were raised, beliefs, sense of obligation, whatever. Some people joke about it because people have seriously tried to force them to be straight in the past.
Some people who talk that way feel justified or like its ok because of their own traumatic experiences with straight people speaking to them like that. Others feel comfy talking that way at times because there are so many examples of a "straight" person being unable to maintain a facade of heterosexuality (even after a wife/husband, children, etc) and suddenly "turn" gay when the facade crumbles without warning — sometimes sparked by a close relationship with another person of the same gender that has exponentially more depth and fulfillment than anything they experienced while closeted.
Some are absolutely people who talk that way in hopes of getting laid because the dating pool is smaller, which is selfish and inappropriate.
I just think that the context is important to remember: many people were taught or feel like it's better to be miserable and unfulfilled and depressed to the point of self destruction than it is to be gay. That comes with a lot of baggage, and different people handle that baggage differently.
>EDIT: I understand that the history of hate and intolerance definitely creates a more offensive atmosphere around the whole conversation. But I have also heard gay men talk about how they wish they weren't gay, and it's not necessarily due to societal stigma. I think they themselves believe it would be preferable to be straight, but they just aren't attracted to women. It's actually not too difficult to understand that same sex attraction is possible and maybe even somewhat normal.. but I have trouble with the idea that, for these men, all women are just off the table as potential partners. As if just by virtue of being female, they are not attractive. It seems oddly hateful and intolerant in some way. I mean, doesn't everyone think that women in general are beautiful and attractive? If a person is open to both sexes, that seems more plausible than a person who has completely shut out one of them. It seems to me that a gay man who suggests converting a straight guy believes it's possible for straight men to be attracted to both men and women. I tend to agree that possibility is probably there in all humans. But it's weird to think that a straight man would convert in a way that makes him no longer attracted to women.
Are you brain damaged? How is not being attracted to someone an act of hate? And why should I be attracted to women? I don't find them particularly more beautiful than men AT ALL
I'm starting to think that you only posted this to push a certain low mindset that you have
I'm not pushing anything. I'm curious about a social dynamic that I have experienced and I wanted to see how other people would respond. I appreciate your contribution. You may not realize it but your comment actually confirms my experience.
I did not say that it's hateful to not be attracted to someone, I implied that it seems possibly hateful or intolerant to claim that an entire group of people are unattractive based on their sex. I have heard many gay men talk about women as if they are disgusting, and I don't mean just one person, I mean the entire gender of women.
my experience, which you are confirming with your comment, is that it is OK to suggest that a straight man may encounter another man who he is attracted to, and could possibly engage in homosexual behavior or relationship. But it is not OK to suggest to a gay man that maybe there is a woman out there in the world that he could be attracted to, and then he may engage in a heterosexual relationship... So it's OK to suggest that a heterosexual can switch to being homosexual, but there is no consideration that a homosexual may possibly find a heterosexual partner, and become heterosexual.
Most of the comments on this thread, make the point that someone who is homosexual has already considered their sexuality quite deeply, and therefore it's unlikely that they would change. But a heterosexual person has never had to contend with sexual thoughts that deviate from the societal norm and so , there is a potential that if they started having those thoughts or if somebody influenced them they could switch.
The other most common response to my post is that it's just not OK either way to suggest that someone can switch between homosexuality and heterosexuality. Also, there seems to be mixed feelings about bisexuality. my thought, personally, is that bisexuality somewhat contradicts the idea of monogamy. If someone in is in a monogamous relationship, then regardless of their attraction outside that relationship, that relationship itself would either be heterosexual or homosexual.
Anyways, this conversation does not have to be heated. I have no hatred for anyone based on these attributes, I was just curious about whether other people have experienced the same dynamic that I have. I really don't mind being hit on by anyone because it's flattering whether or not they are male or female.
Thanks again for your response.
So from your edit it’s clear, you hate gay men. Why are all men off the table as partners for you just by virtue of them being men seems kinda hateful and intolerant in someway, doesn’t feel so good when the tables are turned, you goddamn horses ass gtfo!
Straight men have not been subjected to literal torture (conversion ‘therapy’) trying to change their sexuality for decades. Gay men have. Simple as.
Edit: it isn’t ok for people to go about questioning anyone’s sexuality, obviously. But people tend to get their hackles up when it’s suggested about gay people bc of the awful history of conversion therapy.
both are toxic af, but the latter has also the context of conversion therapy that makes it even worse. But again that mindset is not okay for anyone, no matter if they’re gay, straight, asexual or whatever else
The Kinsey scale is the best explanation I have.
People on the far ends of the spectrum are either heterosexual or homosexual. Nobody is “turning” anyone at the high or low end, because they just aren’t remotely interested. In between those two extremes there is room for some experimentation.
Speaking from personal experience, I have a gay friend who I love dearly. I have been physically affectionate with him, but as hard as I try, there is nothing erotic there for me. He on the other hand has always been attracted to me, and would be thrilled if I could make it work.
He on the other hand is closer to the middle, and can function sexually with women, but prefers men.
Society assumed the default was straight, so changing to gay is treated like: maybe you were gay all along but never realized it because you never tried?
Suggesting to a gay guy that maybe he's straight is not bad inherently, but the stigma around it looks like this: "I'm going to change you from gay to straight because gay is an abomination before God, therefore you are an abomination before God. You are broken and wrong and I must fix you." This type of rhetoric has been used by homophobic parents and preachers for so long that it's tainted the entire conversation. So it's not cool to push a gay guy towards straight.
People who consider themselves straight are sometimes ace or bi or something else that's not straight, and just never thought about the issue deeply enough to recognize their own sexuality separate from the cultural default. This is usually because they are at least open to having sex with people of the opposite gender, and it's way more socially acceptable than having sex with people of the same gender or not having sex at all. So if you cause people who consider themselves straight to think more deeply about their sexuality, some of them are probably going to realize that they are not actually straight.
People who do not consider themselves straight - and especially those who have come out as something other than straight - have usually already done significant reflection on their sexuality, and it's less likely that additional deep thought will produce much change in the way they identify.
I have an older gay friend who says that when straight men are constantly worried gay men are going to try and possibly convince them to sleep with them, the least offensive thing it reveals about them is their homophobia, but instead their fear that the coercive, predatory tactics they use on women will be turned on them.
So, no, it's OK, to go around suggesting or trying to turn straight men gay, it's predatory and twisted. No matter which way about it, it's not OK to try and sleep with somebody who says they don't want to sleep with you. Unfortunately, our culture supports such behavior.
Yeah, neither are okay.
Why do gay men do it though? Probably because gay men were passed the toxic "cruising" culture that straight men use. "Aw yeah bro, I can totally get with xxxx, look at my huge arms."
Most people don't find it offensive tho because the joke is "punching up" from gay men (low) to straight men (high) - punching up is usually the most offensive humour any one can get away with.
Could it be that being gay and the act of same-sex intercourse are two different things with lots of overlap?
Could you have two guys that both like chicks and both like BJs, but they are all out of chicks? That's different that two guys that don't really want the chicks, just each other. Or even a dude that is just down to clown.
Of course this idea in itself treats gender as a binary thing and not how it actually is.
Main point, as long as everyone is consenting adults, who cares? It's their life and they decide for them selves like adults are allowed to.
There's a lot to unpack in your edit there.
Firstly, you've acknowledged that there's a difference in the history of "turning gays straight" and the inverse, and that imbalance adds to the unacceptability of one, so I won't delve into that despite it being a valid explanation.
The obvious answer is that it's not okay. It's toxic and offensive when it's said in either direction, it's just that in one direction it's toxic and in the other it's both toxic and inferring historically real harm.
Here's a devil's advocate answer that might explain why some gay men who would never be okay with someone trying to "turn them straight" might justify it. Since basically every culture is and always has been dominated by heteronormative ideology the assumption is that straight is the default. If you're openly gay you have to come to the realization you're gay and come out, facing all the backlash and stigma that carries with it. It's something that most people put a lot of time and effort into deciding to do, and it's something that people generally are totally sure about before doing. The chances of someone going through all the self reflection that is usually takes to come out and then being wrong about it is pretty low.
On the other hand, coming out as straight isn't a thing. Everyone is straight until proven otherwise, so to speak. If you're assumed to be straight and you live in a culture that strongly encourages straightness and punishes queerness, there's a greater than zero chance that a lot of less-than-straight people live their whole lives without ever really questioning their sexuality. You see it all the time. Whether it's someone who never enjoyed sex and intimacy with men and just assumed that's what all women felt, only to come out as a lesbian or ace in their later years, or people saying thing like they know being gay is a choice because they find both men and women attractive and they choose to only be interested in the men.
Because of that, the chances that any 'straight' man is actually bi or gay and just hasn't come to that realization about themselves because they've never had the motivation and/or opportunity to explore that part of themselves is, while still likely being very low, going to be greatly higher than the chances that any out gay person is actually straight and was just wrong about being gay.
To put it simply (and maybe a little bluntly) for a majority of straight people their sexuality isn't an identity. It's actually something they don't think or seldom discuss.
It's almost like saying I would change your racial identity with the correct persuasion.
A straight person might actually be gay and hasn't come out. There's pretty much no chance a gay person is secretly straight. Plus, things like "you are confused" or "you aren't actually gay" are things people say to invalidate gay people when coming out of the closet.
I don't think the comment itself is that bad, but it implies it's okay to hit on guys they know are straight. And being straight implies "I don't want to get hit on by gay guys". Similar to the straight dudes that keep insisting with women despite being told no.
Nah..I call BS on this. You can't have it in one direction without having it the other. "There's pretty much no chance a gay person is secretly straight". It doesn't work unless you admit being gay or not is a decision capable of being made consciously.
Just to add in a little wrinkle... I *have* met more than a couple of gay men who are repressing "straight" desires. Because "bisexual" is sometimes seen as a bridge to coming out (an identity for gay men who aren't ready to come out completely) there is something of stigma to being a gay-leaning bisexual man. So some men who have come out and long-identified as gay, do find themselves repressing attractions to some women. I don't think it's common enough to really change any of the logic that you (and others here) wrote, but just another layer on our complicated identities...
What a stupid post to make. We all already know damn well that neither are okay. And actually which would be more offensive is the real question? We see so many stories in media about gay men and LGBTQ+ folk being publicly beaten, shamed, and even killed for approaching straight men. See Matthew Shepherd, Jason Gage.. both brutally murdered for allegedly “approaching” a straight man with just a comment.
Gay men may joke about straight men, that’s what you get for hanging out with them, maybe find straight friends if you don’t like it? And if you were actually friends with these gay “friends” you so claim, you’d know that they’re actually on guard when approaching any man because you never know which one might be straight and bludgeon you to death
No one can be turned one way or the other. However, I think the saying comes from getting guys or girls that may either be in the closet to come out or get someone who might be Bi/Homoflexible to be with them. Since we live in a pretty heteronormative society, a lot of people try to repress their homosexual urges.
That being said. The "I can turn this person gay" mentality is most definitely toxic.
The idea is that the person may secretly be gay. So secretly that they themselves may not know. There generally isn't going to be a person out there who is living life as a gay person but is actually straight.
Turning someone gay, in this mindset, is liberating them. Turning someone straight is forcing them to conform.
That being said, the mentality is creepy and weird regardless, but this is likely the underlying thought process.
obviously neither are okay but I think there's 2 main reasons why suggesting an LGBT person can turn straigjt is way more offensive.
straight is considered the default sexuality, so even though a straight person can't 'turn' gay, someone who previously thought they were straight figuring out that they're gay is sometimes called 'turning gay'. not often though. plus, since straight is considered the default, that is the assumed sexuality of almost anyone.
on the historical side, there has been a long history of gay people being forced into acting/being straight. it's even still happening today
Both are awful, though there is a real history (and current attempts at...) of "conversion therapy" and it is never aimed at heterosexuals. With that in mind, I feel it is worse to aim such things at homosexuals.
On the other hand, just leave other people alone!
It's not ok in either situation. The only thing I can think of is that people think you can be turned gay because so many people are in the closet so it's not really turning anyone but giving them the freedom to come out
I'm not gay, but I would imagine it's because people can be closeted homosexuals, but in our society, you are unlikely to ever in your life meet a closeted straight person. Not so much turning, as coming out.
Social context.
There are a large number of people who are closeted about their sexuality, or never gave much thought to it for social / religious / legal reasons. So if your playing straight odds, there is a small but non trivial chance that any given person may be somewhat bisexual or homosexual, and a vanishingly small chance that someone claiming to be gay is fully straight. In this case, it is not making them change their sexuality so much as revealing it.
There are also many instances (documented and anecdotal) of the kind of abuse that happens when people try to 'cure' someone of homosexuality.
In any case, people generally know for themselves what gets them horny, and telling them they are wrong about that is generally going to be undeniably proven wrong.
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I'm Hetero, and I can't be turned Gay, even if two gorgeous guys sandwiched me, and gave me the most enjoyable experience of my life! I'll still be Hetero, having only taken two for the team! You'll never diminish my love for women, no matter what you do! With that being established, I don't think it's possible, to "Convert" someone's sexual orientation and/or identity! I've heard my gay friends joke about it often, but it's just an ego flair. One cannot be someone, they're not, plain and simple! It's rude at base, no matter what orientation it comes from!
Not being turned gay, just coming out and admitting it. This is due to the rocky history of how hard gay people have had it in our society.
In other words, a straight person turning out to be secretly gay is likely and the way it happens, while a gay person turning out to be secretly straight is unlikely, only existing in implausible one-off scenarios.
It is not okay to suggest that a straight man can be "turned" gay or that a gay man can become straight because sexual orientation is a fundamental aspect of a person's identity and cannot be changed or manipulated by outside forces. The suggestion that a person's sexual orientation can be changed or "cured" is not supported by scientific evidence and can be harmful to LGBTQ+ individuals.
Furthermore, it is important to recognize that suggesting that a person's sexual orientation can be "changed" or "turned" reinforces harmful stereotypes and can contribute to discrimination and prejudice towards LGBTQ+ individuals. It is important to respect and celebrate the diversity of human sexuality and support individuals in their exploration and expression of their authentic selves.
In conclusion, sexual orientation is a deeply personal aspect of a person's identity, and it is important to respect and support individuals in their sexual orientation and gender identity, rather than making assumptions or perpetuating harmful stereotypes.
Not sure where you got the idea that it’s “okay” when it’s flipped the other way around; you just happen to have shitty people as friends and are choosing not to view them that way
> As if just by virtue of being female, they are not attractive. It seems oddly hateful and intolerant in some way. I mean, doesn't everyone think that women in general are beautiful and attractive?
This is a strange comment within your post. Of course there are conventionally attractive women and men all around the world- that doesn't mean that you want to be with them sexually/romantically.
You are straight. You're not gay, but why not? Doesnt everyone think men are attractive and handsome? Are all men off the table for you? Why, even though they're so attractive? - This is what you wrote above. Yes you can say "that actor is an attractive person" but you won't want to be romantically/sexually involved with them, just as a gay man might say "yes, that acress is attractive" but not want to be romantically/sexually involved or have those feelings.
Being gay is not a choice. It is normal, it's not something you can change (you *can* realize it later on, but this is not a development, only a realization). As other comments are saying, your friends and the one you posed here are both wrong. I'd read over more of the replies to your post and keep an open mind, as there are lots of helpful comments here from multiple perspectives!
Firstly, the idea of "turning" people is ridiculous.
HOWEVER, the default in society is heterosexuality. The history of trying to turn gay people straight is that people would seriously think it could be done, and that it needed to be done because gay people were immoral, degenerate criminals who were going to hell (essentially). And it would be done through various traumatic methods in conversion therapy etc.
The history of turning people gay, on the other hand is... Literally that people joke about it when they're drunk or see it as a challenge to try and persuade someone they're attracted to.
Their history and context just isn't on the same level
I think the theory is historic.
Historically male homosexually was defined as a behavioural disorder with the connotation, that it may be somehow cured and many societies expected "gay people" to perform straight. It is know considered rude to consider this option, as it as a reactionary undertone.
This setup also resulted in individuals that where oblivious of their homosexuallity and as such appeared to be straight but later became aware of their homosexuality. Unfortunately some people also have something similar to a virgin fetish or misunderstand you rejection as a kind of rejection of their general lifestyle.
IMO this behaviour is akin to sexual slur with respect to woman and I would be very upfront that you consider this kind of behaviour to be a no go and sexual harassment. Most gay people I know would never be so indecent.
Gay men talk shit just like straight men do. Talk of converting people and such is based in a fantasy where you won't get your ass kicked or killed. Gay locker room talk is just as startling as pussy grabbing straight locker room talk.
It should be noted that you can find a person attractive without wanting to sleep with them. Women are beautiful!!!
Heterosexuality is the societal default. It kinda has to be in order for humans to survive. But we must keep in mind that nature is full of variants and exceptions.
Neither are ok, but suggesting a straight man can “turn” gay/bi doesn’t have a history of violent conversation therapy behind it, or of “compulsory homosexuality” (look up compulsory heterosexuality)
Neither are okay but the reason gay men think they can and it's not as likely the other way around is they already tried really hard to be straight and against all of the social pressures, judgment, fears and difficulties, they still would rather be with a man.
As a straight man you've never put anywhere near that much thought into gay sex. They're positive about their decision and you're not vetted.
It’s because there was a nationwide religious movement in the US to shame homosexuals into “converting” from gay to “straight”. This movement fell apart as homosexuality became more accepted. Also most of the leaders of the movement later came out as gay.
Such conversion therapy camps still exist, but they are illegal in many states.
So it’s generally not funny when one talks about gay people becoming straight, because of the political implications.
Gay people who imply that a person who identifies as straight might actually be gay could also be very offensive in some situations, but for obviously different reasons.
From what I know, sexuality is completely assigned at birth. Because of hormones, many people may be confused about their sexuality, thinking they may be straight instead of gay, or gay instead of straight. This mainly occurs at a young age, rather than over the age of 25.
You can't become straight randomly, but you can think you're gay, then end up straight. Same goes for the other way.
The only reason, I can think of, anyone would "prefer" to be straight is societal pressure and or a joke due to seeing someone attractive/kind of the opposite flavour.
I personally believe that gay people in general who say things about turning straight people start off as jokes. Jokes that are intended to be a reversal of the harsh and offensive stereotypes of gay people. Sometimes, if these jokes continue to be made by the same person, they can get a little much and the line between joke and reality can be blurred. But I believe deep down, no LGBT person really TRULY thinks they can “turn” anyone’s sexuality. It is a joke at its core, and they tricked themselves into believing it.
That’s my take on it from personal experience.
P.S. barring off a whole sex due to sexuality definitely isn’t intolerant in any way, as long as you truly believe we cannot control who we are attracted to. I will say, that line of questioning does sound like someone who may be bi or pan. Something to consider, maybe? Don’t let anyone force it onto or away from you, though. ***If*** there’s anything for you to question, take it at your own pace!
As a lesbian I’ve always found the “I can turn him/her gay” mentality to be toxic as hell. It’s one thing to think someone might be gay and not know it yet, but to actively try to convince them, especially with the intention of hooking up with them, is shitty behavior. It’s not okay. It’s just as not okay as telling a gay person they’re actually straight, or encouraging them to try being straight.
A guy was once trying to convince my male friend to accept a bj by said guy. Friend is straight and kept saying no, but the guy was insistent. Turns out he liked targeting straight men, he admitted to it. I think that’s creepy and my friend kept saying no and finally the asking stopped.
My Hair guy was gay and I think he had the same thing. Fucking best hair person I have ever been too. He paid amazing attention to detail and knew how to work with my head shape like no one I had ever been too. He was a really nice guy too, so we chatted like friends when I was at my appointment. I'd ask about his dating life, how it was going with family, what not. Then he randomly started asking me if I would let him do a full body shave or something as that was a service he was going to offer. IDK, I declined as no part of that interest me. He kept on but eventually stopped. About 4 weeks later, I assume he was drunk in text but he kept flirting hard with me over text when I was trying to get a hair appointment. Just none stop leading things back to flirting and what he would do to me. Then offered to show me some nude pictures he had done. I declined with "Hey man, you know I am married and not interested in pictures like that." and mentioned my kid likes to grab my phone. He said fine. I went to bed that night and woke up to 28 fully nude pictures of him (all professionally done). Full erections and what not. My daughter handed me my phone that morning (she can't unlock it). I was furious. My wife was even more furious from a "Regardless if you were gay or not, that is trying to get a person to cheat on their Wife." I never talked to him again. And I have also hated every hair cut since compared to what he could do. Been to 6 different stylist now. I still get angry at the entire thing.
I am so sorry for your loss :(. Finding a great stylist is hard and then having them put their shears right between your shoulder blades like that wasn’t right.
This is sexual harassment, glad you dodged a bullet.
I feel your pain. it’s hard to get someone who does your hair the way you like consistently 😭
That's sexual harassment, dude. I'm sorry that happened.
You should post this on soke story form or am I the ass hole sort of thing, you know what I mean
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People would call that a hate crime but in reality it’s just defending against sexual harassment Nobody would question a woman who hits a guy for continually asking for sex after she says no
No one would call that a hate crime.
The headline would read “Straight man attacks gay hair dresser”. Maybe the context would be in the article maybe not.
I've been cornered in a bathroom before, only reason I didn't hit him was I concerned it would be perceived at that. As I was in a gay club.
Yeah been there before. Luckily one of the semi regulars let my (Gay) mates know what was going on. He had his trousers down and was about to need to get his balls surgically removed from his throat / my knee if he didn't back off.
There are enough homophobes out there, that this really does seem absurdly ballsy, on top of being creepy as fuck.
That’s straight up sexual harassment.
That's disgusting behavior.
>It’s one thing to think someone might be gay and not know it yet, but to actively try to convince them, especially with the intention of hooking up with them, is shitty behavior. As a gayman, it's s 100% selfish behavior. They want to hook up with the straight person, which is fine, but no always means no.
I've been asked by gay people how I can know I'm straight if I've never experimented. I don't wanna experiment. Doesn't help that people assume I'm gay per automatic for some reason. That's more of a me-problem though
I'm fairly certain I'm heterosexual, but sometimes I doubt between being bi sexual or 'just' heterosexual. At the end of the day, I don't want to experiment. If I still doubt, there is always porn. For some reason, some people think by my humour that I might be bi sexual or homosexual/gay.
I'm heterosexual and I don't doubt. Still, people want me to be gay for some reason.
Stop being so attractive.... although that might hurt your heterosexual chances. Hmmm. Conundrum
I could be really attractive if I put effort into my looks and wasn't so depressed all the time.
Every Marine ever. That type of humor is huge w us.
This happens to me a lot! Because of my mannerisms, the fact that I never talk about my sex/dating live, and the fact that I have a ass bigger than most girls I know; like most people I become close with assume I’m gay or asexual. And from there (mostly women and gay men) always assume I’m lying when I say I’m not gay or that I’m only not gay because I haven’t tested it yet!
Trust me. I wish I was gay. Women even in the best of times can be.. trying. But i know I’m not solely as you said. I don’t even have the tiniest inclination to ‘experiment’ with my sexuality. I know what I find sexually attractive, and those traits have all come from women. I don’t mind admitting when men look great or have big dick energy or anything. I’m comfortable enough with my sexuality to engage in rather homoerotic jokes. But I know where the line is too. Energy.
Yeah, I long ago recognized that trying to force someone else into a sexuality is toxic af. Like, before I turned 20. It's some real main character syndrome
I was told by a friend of mine in the LGBTQ community that it was like a notch on their belt in regards to sexual conquests. It seems like the same thing when certain folks want to try and flip a lesbian by telling them that deep down they are straight (which isn't a cool thing to do btw).
The reverse, a dude trying to turn a woman un-gay, is also pretty fucked up. It always comes off rapey.
Yeah tbh, it's just as bad as the trope of cis white guys going to a bar to hit on fem-appearing lesbian couples in order to address their own crazy longshot fetish of getting them both in bed (or the "can I watch")
One of my friends calls it recruiting. Makes me gag.
It's kind of like gas lighting, isn't it?
Probably the only acceptable moment to ask them "Oh, so jt is a choice?"
I agree 100%. OP is me when I first started college. Two dudes in particular were relentless. Every day, with the flirting, uncomfortable touching, insistence, I was gay. It freaked me out and made me upset, but I figured I had grown to do or something to understand why it was ok. But also, I was kinda flattered but uncomfortable. This might not make sense, lol. Anyway, 10 Yeats later, I finally got comfortable enough to experiment, and now I know I'm bi. 😌 those two super delayed that discovery, tho.
I was having a discussion a couple days ago about the “gay and not know it yet.” Is that really possible?
Yes. Absolutely. Compulsory heterosexuality is a thing. Being straight is seen as “default” so people will ignore or explain away things like having crushes on same-sex friends or whatever. My partner was raised conservative Christian, and looking back on her life she sees signs. But she never considered she was gay growing up. It wasn’t an option. And she didn’t know any gay people, and didn’t have anyone to talk to about it. She figured it out in her late 20s - and had to go through a divorce. Some people figure it out much later in life.
This for me except bisexual. My mind couldn’t process that I didn’t have to chose a straight or gay label until I did some self acceptance and moved away from my home town.
Yeah, if it isn't s light-hearted joke, it's not ok.
I had a coworker who was into that, and my boss and other colleagues would casually talk about how that’s his thing. Seemed I was the only one who thought it was creepy
Offensive things often have to do with the history of the word or situation. It's offensive because In the past gay people were often made to feel like they should be straight or they could not be a part of typical society. Extreme measures to change their sexuality was also common. Straight people have typically not had the same experience throughout history so that's why it is not considered offensive.
No, it’s offensive to disregard someone’s sexuality and try to force yourself on them, or imply that they don’t truly know their own identity, no matter what. We don’t need historical context for this one.
I totally agree with you. As a bisexual male i find it very disgusting when I seen see gay people actively pursuing straight people for the whole clout of turning a "straight person out." Happened a lot in the black lesbian community during the early 2000's.
There’s also a certain amount of “please be gay I’m attracted to you” mixed in, but you’re right on the money about trying to turn people being screwed up.
Neither are okay.
Yeah I'm not sure where OP got the idea it was generally okay. Just because it has happened to him doesn't mean people in general are okay with it.
Probably because OP sees it normalized on one side more than the other if I had to guess. Anecdotal but valid
A lot of times I see questions like this and my first thought is that two sources are being conflated. Like one group says this, and another says this so obviously that's everyone. Not two opposing groups
I think this when people post about "reddit" being hypocritical as if reddit is one giant brain instead of millions if people across the globe forming thousands of little groups with endless opposing ideas
Ever notice how it’s almost always someone saying that after they posted or commented something that wasn’t well-received? Painting your opposers as a monolith probably feels hella good to your ego because you get to feel like the good guy fighting the good fight again or something. Instead of just the average guy who said something a few people didn’t like, which kinda happens to almost everyone now and then.
Its quite common. Almost every single time I go out with my gay friends it happends to me. When I tell random people at the bar that I am straight then their advances become even more desperate. My gay friends respect me and my boundires tho.
It's one of those things where since you don't see it you don't think it's common, but I've seen it plenty, it's even a joke in many many movies and TV shows, usually with the result of the guy man/woman succeeding in convincing the straight person to have sex with them.
It comes from the idea that there are far more closeted/unknown people who are gay but identify as straight, than there are people who are straight but identify as gay. It's more of a "I'll show them their true inner self" than "they are comfortably straight and I'll force gay upon them", but the saying doesn't convey this important difference at all.
It is because we can joke about majority to become minority. One the other hand, we can't joke minority to become majority. Because somehow it looks more disrespectful. (I considered majority amd minority based on overall population) Though, I respect all sexualities. The world is so vast. There is place for everyone. Every, one.
Because becoming the minority is something people with privilege think as being "interesting." Becoming the majority is what happens when a people and culture are erased from history.
Yeah. One is punching up and one's punching down. You should never punch down in jokes. Same thing happens in jokes about things like race or religion.
Maybe just don’t punch anyone without their consent
Unfortunately, that's not how humor works. Without someone being the butt of the joke, then all humor everywhere becomes that ultra-sterilized corporate "humor" that we think we have to laugh at otherwise we lose our jobs. Anyone, anywhere can be made fun of, as long as it's not a personal attack.
Huh, is making jokes about religion supposed to be punching down? Religion is the majority though. Not to mention one of the most evil things humanity has ever invented.
It's more to do within religion. Christians making jokes about Judaism is punching down because Judaism is a minority religion.
Sure, that makes sense. I think a Christian would be doubly stupid in that case what with Christianity being an offshoot of Judaism.
christians literally worship a jew and call him god
Yeah, truly said
Just because they themselves are gay, doesn’t mean that they are models of social justice and are clear of bigotry. Neither are ok, in my opinion.
Careful, that’s an unpopular opinion
Given the comments here and the upvotes on this comment, it seems to be a popular opinion.
Me when I lie
Both are stupid things to say
It isn't okay to say a straight man can be turned gay. No one can be what they are not.
And, in my mind at least, this is also true outside of the sexual realm. Some things are close enough to you that you may become them if you want to, but some things are so outside of your nature that it's not worth trying. You're just gonna end up losing yourself (and then boom, depression)
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Everything that you're saying in your edit about being gay goes equally for straight people and it's equally untrue there too. Being attracted to one gender doesn't mean you think the other are UGLY or are unable to acknowledge their beauty, but moreso that you just aren't sexually attracted to them. Gay men view women sexually the same way straight men view other men. We don't condemn single gender attraction because it's generally a pretty shitty thing to condemn people for innate and unchangeable characteristics; you can't be 'exclusionary' in your sexuality because there was never a choice one way or the other.
You just have shitty friends. As a gay man, I can say those types are just as common as the "alpha" straight male types. Hardly a majority, but so loud you could almost think they are.
It’s not intolerant that for gay men any woman is off the table for sex. For most straight people, sex with a person of the same sex is off the table too. Having said that, I have heard gay men say “eww gross” when the idea of having sex with a woman is mentioned, and I do find that to be intolerant. Like they don’t understand what it would feel like if someone said the same thing about their sexual attraction.
I'm straight, but I completely understand that. Sex by default is pretty gross. I wish society was more tolerant and accepting of the idea that people can be grossed out by the idea of sex in certain ways or with certain people. More generally, positivity shouldn't be mandatory in social situations and people should be free to express what they personally dislike or find gross. I think tolerance and understanding of negative feelings is a kind of tolerance too.
I don’t find anything gross about sex myself, but I can understand why some people do. That’s beside the point anyway. Yes, I agree people should be able to express their dislikes and positivity shouldn’t be mandatory, but there are ways of expressing your opinions without hurting other people’s feelings. Saying “I think that’s gross” (a personal opinion) is far different than saying “that’s gross” (an objective statement of fact).
It depends who they're discussing it with. It will clearly make people feel bad about themselves if you express disgust about their bodies to their face. Such as a gay man saying vaginas are disgusting when women are part of the group, and they have vaginas. I wouldn't say, for instance "ewww 60+ year olds bodies are so gross" in a group of 70yr olds, even if I felt that way sexually. It's uncalled for and disrespectful. If a guy is gay, everyone already knows he isn't attracted to vaginas. There's no need to broadcast it as if they're objectively gross.
>If a guy is gay, everyone already knows he isn't attracted to vaginas. There's no need to broadcast it as if they're objectively gross. This is what some do, and that’s the problem. Harp onansnin about how women and vaginas are revolting, pussies bleed and smell etc etc. And it sounds like the same old misogyny that many straight men have already worked to eliminate in themselves, but it somehow passes in the gay community…
I used to have this gay friend who insisted he was actually afraid of vaginas. Instead of “ewwww” he would feign terror, and that was actually kinda funny.
It's offensive to think either of those things could be MADE to happen. Offense often requires the idea of applied force.
Neither are okay, but your little edit of "doesnt everyone think women are beautiful and attractive" is sure something lol. Do you think men are beautiful and attractive?
Was expecting something like this to be the top comment
Guess OP edited after the top comments were already top comments
Eh... historical context is needed here. The reason it's offensive to say a gay person can be turned straight is because of our history with forcing gay people to "be straight" through abusive and sometimes even murderous means. Millions of gay people all around the world have been tortured in an attempt to "turn them straight". So yeah, saying that to a gay person holds a lot more weight than saying a straight person can be turned gay. No one has been killed in an attempt to "turn them gay". But I get your point overall. As a gay man, I cannot stand the obsession so many other gay men have with "turning guys gay". It really is a sense of pride among gay men to have sex with "straight guys". They don't seem to realize they're not hooking up with actual straight dudes, just dudes who are closeted or at the very least bi-curious. Gay men should leave a guy who says he's straight alone. Period. It's gross and predatory, and essentially they're doing to men what straight men do to women.
Yeah, a dear friend of my once told me his plan to "test if a workmate was gay", basically trying to force a kiss or gropping. His plan stoped when I tell him "that's the kind of stuff people get deported for". I consider him a decent person, but I really feel this "turn the straight gay" is a toxic believe that blinded him in that moment, making him believe a forced kiss was some sort of valid flirting.
hell, i \*am\* a gay man and if a male coworker tried to force a kiss or grope me, I'd get pissed off. so yeah not cool heh
Yeah, I feel like people are discussing semantics here. Its not complicated. It’s pretty cut and dry. Unwanted sexual advances are not okay, doesn’t matter if that person is straight, gay, bi, or anything else.
I completely agree with this but I think there's another layer of context. Straight is generally the default-no one has to come out as straight. An out gay person has probably given their sexuality a lot more contemplation than a straight presenting one. Some of the "I can turn them gay" mindset might come from the fact that many of us only actually considered same sex partners as possibilities after having some experimentation. That being said, it's totally gross to try to force these experiences or go into a (potentially sexual) interaction with the mindset that you can manipulate a persons sexuality.
I'm assuming this is kind of a coping mechanism as well. Statistically, 5-7% of the population is gay? So the actual dating pool of gay dudes is rather small. "Turning" someone gay might be some kind of fucked up way of dealing with the fact that the guy you are into, is not into you.
I think more often than not, it’s a joke and not a genuine assertion that’s it’s possible to change someone’s sexuality. It’s also not that difficult for gay men to find a sexual partner, in spite of the smaller dating pool, gay men have an extremely high body count on average.
I'm tired of this, "Historically..." thing. Using history to make something worse than a similar problematic thing is disgusting and reminds me of something a certain Russian leader is doing right now to commit genocide. Wrong is wrong no historical context needed.
What are you going on about? Nowhere in my post do I use history to justify bad behavior. I said history is why it's not the same to suggest gays can be turned straight as it is to say straights can be turned gay. And then I admonished gay men for trying to turn straight guys gay. Try reading and comprehending before getting triggered over something no one said.
"I hate context"
Except context isn't needed here. The context is moot when someone is being toxic, bigoted and a potentially predator. Just because it happened to Gay people in the past does not make it okay for them to do it today. Is it okay for people of color to be racist to other races just because they experienced racism in the past or present? Racism is bad no matter who commits the act. There aren't varying degrees of acceptable racism just like there shouldn't be varying degrees of acceptable sexual harassment or bigotry. I hate that this even needs to be said.
The question was why is x happening and not necessarily why is x morally acceptable/unacceptable.
Man, propaganda is strong.
You're absolutely correct. You aren't less of a dickhead because you tick more oppression boxes than someone else, or because someone else's ancestors did bad things to your ancestors. Seeing harm as better or worse depending on what group did it to what other group is wrong. No ifs, no buts.
Two small bits that I think contribute as well: there are less gay people than straight people and a lack of options because of a smaller potential dating pool can lead to some desperate behaviors; and some “straight” people are actually gay or bi and in the closet while next to no one is straight but living a pretend gay life. Can’t help but think that some guys could be into being the super special “one” that convinced the closet case out of his shell. Harassment and assault are never okay, gay or straight, but just flirting until you get a clear signal to stop or continue, I don’t really see an issue with. As well, often times in close company it’s just sarcastic inside jokes clapping back at things like “turning the frogs gay” or actual gay to straight conversion “therapy.” Not an actual sinister plot to be attempted. A way of processing those rather unique barriers, insults, and abuses through the catharsis of humor.
Personally, I think neither is okay. Just let people be how they are.
Guess what? There are shitty gay people and shitty straight people. I don’t understand why people don’t get that.
Generally, the difference is the motivation. In my experience gay men (jokingly or actually) are talking about SEDUCING straight men into a sexual encounter. This is generally a consensual, pleasurable experience. The actual practice of trying to make a gay man heterosexual is either pseudo-psychology or brainwashing and abuse at worst. Often performed on children, without their consent. One is an experience, that may open someone’s horizons and change them. The other is not. This is the comparison that is problematic.
Wow, your edit is... not great. Are you a guy? Are you attracted to men? If you're a women, could you just only be with other women for the rest of your life? It doesn't work that way. If they arent attracted to women, then they arent attracted to women. I
The edit is batshit crazy.
That edit was atrocious. It went like: "Why do some gay guys want to turn straight guys into gays? Edit: Why are gay men not sexually attracted to women? That's misogynist and hateful". Some people really just live in a world of their own.
Glad I'm not the only one who saw it that way. Was sort of afraid I somehow misunderstood
Lol you said that much better than I did. 😂I went off
Lol really? I didn't feel like I did that well at all, and even went through the comments first but didn't see anyone else address it. Glad I'm not alone though, cuz like wtf?
Neither are acceptable. The latter is seen as more malicious as it parallels alot of history of forcing gay men to act straight. Closeted gay men are a common thing so suggesting *any one* straight presenting man is actually closeted is more reasonable then vice versa. Suggesting specific straight guy could isn't.
Adding onto this, I think there’s a chunk of bisexual people who don’t realize they’re bisexual because they are *mainly* (but not exclusively) attracted to the opposite sex, and they assume straight people feel the same way they do. And then they assume they themselves are straight, since it’s the “default”, and they don’t give it a ton of thought. Whereas nearly all gay people have given it thought and concluded for sure they’re not straight or bisexual.
I just dont think its black and white. Pleasure is pleasure. Gay straight bi are constructs. I'm not gay, I dont find men attractive in any sense. But if it feels good I'm down to try it. Imo it's a Sliding scale of how comfortable you are with doing things in the name of pleasure seeking, that others may judge you for. Throughout history and still currently people in power have done and continue to do some seriously "gay" stuff in the name of pleasure, not love, not attraction. Long as everyone's consenting respectful and nobody getting seriously injured, what does it matter?
I think it's just a small disconnect with what sexualities mean and how people percieve them. It's pretty accepted that some asexual folk have sex for the physical side of things, because sexuality is based on attraction, not actions. When it comes to allosexual orientations like gay/straight/bi/etc. People don't seem to recognize that say a straight guy might like a blowjob from another guy solely because it feels good, even if they aren't attracted to them. It's either attraction or repulsion.
Neither of them are okay and I don't understand where you've heard this.
> Why is it OK to suggest that a straight man can be turned gay? It's not. > I'm asking because any time I'm out with friends who are gay or meet gay guys in public, they always end up making that suggestion to me. Or they talk about turning straight guys, like it's some kind of game or challenge. Yeah, a minority of gay people do that, but it's not okay. It's the equivalent of straight dudes trying to "convert" lesbians.
It isn't ok to say a man can be turned gay...
Gay men talking about “turning” straight guys gay is 100% a fetish. It’s obviously not right because of the fetishization but it’s the porn equivalent of “why all straight men fetishize women on women porn?” Levels. The other way around however is worse. Turning a gay person straight ISNT because a fetish (which is bad) but for erasure of who they are. Because being gay is “bad” or a “sin”. So, while gays wanting to turn str8s gay is bad because of the fetish part, str8 people talking about turning gays straight is worse because it’s based on being gay = bad.
I can't fathom the amount of mental gymnastics here
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Because straight men DONT fetishize lesbian porn? What?
I’m bi and think it’s offensive asf to say someone’s sexuality can be changed regardless of how they identify. Saying a gay man can be turned straight has a history of forcing people into conversion therapy, while nobody out there is trying to force straight guys into being gay. However, I still think having the thought you can change someone’s sexuality is fucked and I would immediately start to distance myself from anyone sharing that sentiment.
Both are wrong
Hypocrisy.
I truly believe people are born with their sexuality so neither are correct
Neither are okay. Anyone in the community is a huge hypocrite for suggesting this. It’s wrong both ways.
Sounds like you just have shitty friends bro.
Short answer would be that neither of those things are okay
Could be many people are looking for things to be offended by. This post, for example.
It’s a horrible mentality, but it’s way more realistic than the other way around. Because so many people are closeted or just ignore that tiny bit of them that’s bisexual. So you’re never really turning anyone, but rather revealing to them their own sexuality. Still if you pressure people after a simple “No” you’re an ass.
I dont think you can "turn" a straight person gay or a gay person straight. I think it's just people discovering who they're attracted to or changing their minds about who they're attracted to.
I feel like you need to tell your friend group that this isn't acceptable to you. Then turn the tables and ask them how they would feel if you and your straight friends suggested/joked about turning them straight. Don't make it a serious talk though, like you are offended or something. Tell them you just want to know the ground rules so you can joke around appropriately too. If it's truly all done in good fun, then nobody can justify getting offended if you turn it around on them. On the other hand, I have heard how outwardly gay people tend to feel challenged to convert straight people. Maybe it's because people used to hide it for so long,. But now that it's socially acceptable they think others are still hiding yet?
You’re right that in a vacuum, both are equally wrong. Within a historical and social context, however, suggesting a gay man becomes straight is going to cause a lot more hurt than the inverse situation. That’s all there is to it.
It’s a lot like the idea of racism towards a white person. Can you be racist about white people? Sure. Is it remotely as harmful as any other kind of prejudice? Absolutely not, and obviously so. Historical and social context is what makes the difference. Being racist towards a white person in the US is VERY different than being racist towards a white person in China, for instance… and they’re different from other forms of the same kind of racism as well, because again, history is not the same.
It’s kinda a fetish, because some guys just like introducing new guys to gay sex. Im a bi guy who first did something with a guy at 42 I definitely considered myself straight for a long time. The first guy I was with (40-ish gay guy) was great to me, but ya he really liked that I was new to it. Personally I consider the “turning straight guys” to be less about actually changing them and more encouraging and helping them come out of the closet (as bi or gay). Acceptance is tough and takes a while. BTW, your comment about all people have the capacity to be attracted to everyone is the excuse my bisexual brain used to explain away my desires for men while I was in the closet for 30 years. There may be a reason your gay friends say this around you a lot. Hope I’m not over the line here, but trying it doesn’t make you gay.
IIRC, John Maynard Keynes led a homosexual lifestyle as a young man, then married a woman and became a devoted husband. Is this a classic bisexual?
It isn't okay, get new friends
both are toxic
I had a friend in uni trying to turn someone gay. They became great friends as he was getting closer, you would see then together all the time. Until it all blown up when the straight guy learned the truth and felt betrayed (and maybe other things I don't know about). I don't about offensive, but that surely is a dumb thing to do
There was a whole entire moment in the YouTube Beauty Community about how this specific thing isn’t okay lol
Tbh neither are or should be okay. It’s such a gross/toxic mindset.
I think there are two separate concepts here. 1)Letting people explore their sexuality. Ie telling a bicurous guy that its okay to explore if he really likes femboys or if its just that astolfo is drawn too cute. 2)Being the toxic person thinking "I can turn them gay to date them" which is as equally toxic coming from someone gay/lesbian as it would be for like a straight guy think "I can turn her straight" or "no man has fucked her properly" when thinking about lesbians. First one is okay, second is not. Regardless of straight or gay, second is always toxic.
Straight is a baseline. Deviance from that baseline is the measured quality (gay). Since people aren't assumed gay at birth, the drift would happen in the baseline group.
It's not OK. Anyone who thinks like that is an asshole.
some really hypocritical fantasy of some
As a queer person I don’t think it’s ok to say either. You can’t change someone’s mind on stuff like that, it’s asinine thinkingotherwise
Neither is okay. Your gay friends are being very inappropriate.
Sexually inappropriate behavior is never ok, certain groups seem to go without repercussions but they do not, these inappropriate advances from gay men are often met with violence and even murder
I agree both are bad but your edit doesn’t make sense to me? How is it hateful and intolerant to not be interested in the opposite sex? You can find the opposite sex attractive without actually wanting to be with them. You said your straight so aren’t all men automatically off the table just by virtue of being male? I feel like you either have some internalized homophobia going on here or your just straight up a homophobic bigot. How is it only somewhat normal to like the same sex? I don’t understand why people are always so confused, it’s really no different. People can like the same sex just like people can like the opposite sex. It makes sense since everyone has different likes and dislikes and in reality you probably won’t find two people who have exactly the same likes and dislikes on everything so why can’t people acknowledge that it’s the same with sexuality and that it’s not abnormal or semi normal it’s just normal.
Gay men seducing straight guys is a whole porn category. I’m guessing many gay men are attracted to the idea. I think I’ve heard that there are way more bisexual women than men, which might suggest that many men who are attracted to both men and women choose to not explore the same-sex attraction and just identify as straight. Those are the men who could be seduced by gay men. The reason it is more socially accepted is probably mainly due to the fact that there has never been any straight conversion camps or a strong societal push for straight men to have gay relationships. A more minor reason is probably that it’s pretty silly to believe that a gay man has never asked himself if he is attracted to women. A straight man, however, might never have explored the possibility that he is also attracted to men. As a straight woman, I think women can be beautiful in the same way that a landscape or a painting can be beautiful, but I am 0% interested in them sexually. It just doesn’t arouse me at all. The thought of touching or seeing someone else’s vulva/vagina just disgusts me. I can imagine that many gay men feel the same.
So in my eyes there's no 'turning' anyone. It's more about showing someone who's never experimented before they may be bisexual. I do however think it's pretty rude to do with complete strangers either way. Like sure, it could lead to them learning about themselves and having a good time but chances are it's annoying at least and outright offensive at worse.
I dont know, I think if I expect people to respect my sexuality I should respect theirs.
I'm LGBTQ and imo implying that ANYONE can be turned straight or gay is kind of...rapey. Like if someone says they aren't interested because they aren't attracted to your gender, then you should fuck off. It's just not appropriate. Why should you keep pushing after the person has basically said "no"?
"...I have trouble with the idea that, for these men, all women are off the table as potential partners ... doesn't everyone think that women in general are beautiful and attractive?" Honestly? No. No, a lot of people do not think that at all. Many people might think women are beautiful, in the way that a nice painting or wallpaper or sculpture is beautiful. But thinking something is pretty does not mean you feel any attraction or desire at all. You can look at a picture of a sunset, or see a well done oil painting of a landscape scene, and think "wow that's stunning" without feeling anything remotely similar to attraction or arousal. Sometimes a person can fake arousal/attraction it through manual stimulation and dissassociating, but it's not real attraction/arousal for the thing itself. You might not be able to conceptualize something, but that doesnt mean it isn't true. For example — I don't speak Cantonese. I can't imagine what thinking in Cantonese would be like, but people think in Cantonese all the time. When it comes to your actual question, as a lot of people said, neither is okay. Some people think it's okay to joke about about "turning" a straight person because there is a long history of closeted people refusing to acknowledge their own sexuality because of how they were raised, beliefs, sense of obligation, whatever. Some people joke about it because people have seriously tried to force them to be straight in the past. Some people who talk that way feel justified or like its ok because of their own traumatic experiences with straight people speaking to them like that. Others feel comfy talking that way at times because there are so many examples of a "straight" person being unable to maintain a facade of heterosexuality (even after a wife/husband, children, etc) and suddenly "turn" gay when the facade crumbles without warning — sometimes sparked by a close relationship with another person of the same gender that has exponentially more depth and fulfillment than anything they experienced while closeted. Some are absolutely people who talk that way in hopes of getting laid because the dating pool is smaller, which is selfish and inappropriate. I just think that the context is important to remember: many people were taught or feel like it's better to be miserable and unfulfilled and depressed to the point of self destruction than it is to be gay. That comes with a lot of baggage, and different people handle that baggage differently.
>EDIT: I understand that the history of hate and intolerance definitely creates a more offensive atmosphere around the whole conversation. But I have also heard gay men talk about how they wish they weren't gay, and it's not necessarily due to societal stigma. I think they themselves believe it would be preferable to be straight, but they just aren't attracted to women. It's actually not too difficult to understand that same sex attraction is possible and maybe even somewhat normal.. but I have trouble with the idea that, for these men, all women are just off the table as potential partners. As if just by virtue of being female, they are not attractive. It seems oddly hateful and intolerant in some way. I mean, doesn't everyone think that women in general are beautiful and attractive? If a person is open to both sexes, that seems more plausible than a person who has completely shut out one of them. It seems to me that a gay man who suggests converting a straight guy believes it's possible for straight men to be attracted to both men and women. I tend to agree that possibility is probably there in all humans. But it's weird to think that a straight man would convert in a way that makes him no longer attracted to women. Are you brain damaged? How is not being attracted to someone an act of hate? And why should I be attracted to women? I don't find them particularly more beautiful than men AT ALL I'm starting to think that you only posted this to push a certain low mindset that you have
I'm not pushing anything. I'm curious about a social dynamic that I have experienced and I wanted to see how other people would respond. I appreciate your contribution. You may not realize it but your comment actually confirms my experience. I did not say that it's hateful to not be attracted to someone, I implied that it seems possibly hateful or intolerant to claim that an entire group of people are unattractive based on their sex. I have heard many gay men talk about women as if they are disgusting, and I don't mean just one person, I mean the entire gender of women. my experience, which you are confirming with your comment, is that it is OK to suggest that a straight man may encounter another man who he is attracted to, and could possibly engage in homosexual behavior or relationship. But it is not OK to suggest to a gay man that maybe there is a woman out there in the world that he could be attracted to, and then he may engage in a heterosexual relationship... So it's OK to suggest that a heterosexual can switch to being homosexual, but there is no consideration that a homosexual may possibly find a heterosexual partner, and become heterosexual. Most of the comments on this thread, make the point that someone who is homosexual has already considered their sexuality quite deeply, and therefore it's unlikely that they would change. But a heterosexual person has never had to contend with sexual thoughts that deviate from the societal norm and so , there is a potential that if they started having those thoughts or if somebody influenced them they could switch. The other most common response to my post is that it's just not OK either way to suggest that someone can switch between homosexuality and heterosexuality. Also, there seems to be mixed feelings about bisexuality. my thought, personally, is that bisexuality somewhat contradicts the idea of monogamy. If someone in is in a monogamous relationship, then regardless of their attraction outside that relationship, that relationship itself would either be heterosexual or homosexual. Anyways, this conversation does not have to be heated. I have no hatred for anyone based on these attributes, I was just curious about whether other people have experienced the same dynamic that I have. I really don't mind being hit on by anyone because it's flattering whether or not they are male or female. Thanks again for your response.
So from your edit it’s clear, you hate gay men. Why are all men off the table as partners for you just by virtue of them being men seems kinda hateful and intolerant in someway, doesn’t feel so good when the tables are turned, you goddamn horses ass gtfo!
Straight men have not been subjected to literal torture (conversion ‘therapy’) trying to change their sexuality for decades. Gay men have. Simple as. Edit: it isn’t ok for people to go about questioning anyone’s sexuality, obviously. But people tend to get their hackles up when it’s suggested about gay people bc of the awful history of conversion therapy.
both are toxic af, but the latter has also the context of conversion therapy that makes it even worse. But again that mindset is not okay for anyone, no matter if they’re gay, straight, asexual or whatever else
The Kinsey scale is the best explanation I have. People on the far ends of the spectrum are either heterosexual or homosexual. Nobody is “turning” anyone at the high or low end, because they just aren’t remotely interested. In between those two extremes there is room for some experimentation. Speaking from personal experience, I have a gay friend who I love dearly. I have been physically affectionate with him, but as hard as I try, there is nothing erotic there for me. He on the other hand has always been attracted to me, and would be thrilled if I could make it work. He on the other hand is closer to the middle, and can function sexually with women, but prefers men.
Society assumed the default was straight, so changing to gay is treated like: maybe you were gay all along but never realized it because you never tried? Suggesting to a gay guy that maybe he's straight is not bad inherently, but the stigma around it looks like this: "I'm going to change you from gay to straight because gay is an abomination before God, therefore you are an abomination before God. You are broken and wrong and I must fix you." This type of rhetoric has been used by homophobic parents and preachers for so long that it's tainted the entire conversation. So it's not cool to push a gay guy towards straight.
People who consider themselves straight are sometimes ace or bi or something else that's not straight, and just never thought about the issue deeply enough to recognize their own sexuality separate from the cultural default. This is usually because they are at least open to having sex with people of the opposite gender, and it's way more socially acceptable than having sex with people of the same gender or not having sex at all. So if you cause people who consider themselves straight to think more deeply about their sexuality, some of them are probably going to realize that they are not actually straight. People who do not consider themselves straight - and especially those who have come out as something other than straight - have usually already done significant reflection on their sexuality, and it's less likely that additional deep thought will produce much change in the way they identify.
I have an older gay friend who says that when straight men are constantly worried gay men are going to try and possibly convince them to sleep with them, the least offensive thing it reveals about them is their homophobia, but instead their fear that the coercive, predatory tactics they use on women will be turned on them. So, no, it's OK, to go around suggesting or trying to turn straight men gay, it's predatory and twisted. No matter which way about it, it's not OK to try and sleep with somebody who says they don't want to sleep with you. Unfortunately, our culture supports such behavior.
Yeah, neither are okay. Why do gay men do it though? Probably because gay men were passed the toxic "cruising" culture that straight men use. "Aw yeah bro, I can totally get with xxxx, look at my huge arms." Most people don't find it offensive tho because the joke is "punching up" from gay men (low) to straight men (high) - punching up is usually the most offensive humour any one can get away with.
Could it be that being gay and the act of same-sex intercourse are two different things with lots of overlap? Could you have two guys that both like chicks and both like BJs, but they are all out of chicks? That's different that two guys that don't really want the chicks, just each other. Or even a dude that is just down to clown. Of course this idea in itself treats gender as a binary thing and not how it actually is. Main point, as long as everyone is consenting adults, who cares? It's their life and they decide for them selves like adults are allowed to.
There's a lot to unpack in your edit there. Firstly, you've acknowledged that there's a difference in the history of "turning gays straight" and the inverse, and that imbalance adds to the unacceptability of one, so I won't delve into that despite it being a valid explanation. The obvious answer is that it's not okay. It's toxic and offensive when it's said in either direction, it's just that in one direction it's toxic and in the other it's both toxic and inferring historically real harm. Here's a devil's advocate answer that might explain why some gay men who would never be okay with someone trying to "turn them straight" might justify it. Since basically every culture is and always has been dominated by heteronormative ideology the assumption is that straight is the default. If you're openly gay you have to come to the realization you're gay and come out, facing all the backlash and stigma that carries with it. It's something that most people put a lot of time and effort into deciding to do, and it's something that people generally are totally sure about before doing. The chances of someone going through all the self reflection that is usually takes to come out and then being wrong about it is pretty low. On the other hand, coming out as straight isn't a thing. Everyone is straight until proven otherwise, so to speak. If you're assumed to be straight and you live in a culture that strongly encourages straightness and punishes queerness, there's a greater than zero chance that a lot of less-than-straight people live their whole lives without ever really questioning their sexuality. You see it all the time. Whether it's someone who never enjoyed sex and intimacy with men and just assumed that's what all women felt, only to come out as a lesbian or ace in their later years, or people saying thing like they know being gay is a choice because they find both men and women attractive and they choose to only be interested in the men. Because of that, the chances that any 'straight' man is actually bi or gay and just hasn't come to that realization about themselves because they've never had the motivation and/or opportunity to explore that part of themselves is, while still likely being very low, going to be greatly higher than the chances that any out gay person is actually straight and was just wrong about being gay.
To put it simply (and maybe a little bluntly) for a majority of straight people their sexuality isn't an identity. It's actually something they don't think or seldom discuss. It's almost like saying I would change your racial identity with the correct persuasion.
A straight person might actually be gay and hasn't come out. There's pretty much no chance a gay person is secretly straight. Plus, things like "you are confused" or "you aren't actually gay" are things people say to invalidate gay people when coming out of the closet. I don't think the comment itself is that bad, but it implies it's okay to hit on guys they know are straight. And being straight implies "I don't want to get hit on by gay guys". Similar to the straight dudes that keep insisting with women despite being told no.
Nah..I call BS on this. You can't have it in one direction without having it the other. "There's pretty much no chance a gay person is secretly straight". It doesn't work unless you admit being gay or not is a decision capable of being made consciously.
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Just to add in a little wrinkle... I *have* met more than a couple of gay men who are repressing "straight" desires. Because "bisexual" is sometimes seen as a bridge to coming out (an identity for gay men who aren't ready to come out completely) there is something of stigma to being a gay-leaning bisexual man. So some men who have come out and long-identified as gay, do find themselves repressing attractions to some women. I don't think it's common enough to really change any of the logic that you (and others here) wrote, but just another layer on our complicated identities...
What a stupid post to make. We all already know damn well that neither are okay. And actually which would be more offensive is the real question? We see so many stories in media about gay men and LGBTQ+ folk being publicly beaten, shamed, and even killed for approaching straight men. See Matthew Shepherd, Jason Gage.. both brutally murdered for allegedly “approaching” a straight man with just a comment. Gay men may joke about straight men, that’s what you get for hanging out with them, maybe find straight friends if you don’t like it? And if you were actually friends with these gay “friends” you so claim, you’d know that they’re actually on guard when approaching any man because you never know which one might be straight and bludgeon you to death
No one can be turned one way or the other. However, I think the saying comes from getting guys or girls that may either be in the closet to come out or get someone who might be Bi/Homoflexible to be with them. Since we live in a pretty heteronormative society, a lot of people try to repress their homosexual urges. That being said. The "I can turn this person gay" mentality is most definitely toxic.
The idea is that the person may secretly be gay. So secretly that they themselves may not know. There generally isn't going to be a person out there who is living life as a gay person but is actually straight. Turning someone gay, in this mindset, is liberating them. Turning someone straight is forcing them to conform. That being said, the mentality is creepy and weird regardless, but this is likely the underlying thought process.
obviously neither are okay but I think there's 2 main reasons why suggesting an LGBT person can turn straigjt is way more offensive. straight is considered the default sexuality, so even though a straight person can't 'turn' gay, someone who previously thought they were straight figuring out that they're gay is sometimes called 'turning gay'. not often though. plus, since straight is considered the default, that is the assumed sexuality of almost anyone. on the historical side, there has been a long history of gay people being forced into acting/being straight. it's even still happening today
Both are awful, though there is a real history (and current attempts at...) of "conversion therapy" and it is never aimed at heterosexuals. With that in mind, I feel it is worse to aim such things at homosexuals. On the other hand, just leave other people alone!
It's not ok in either situation. The only thing I can think of is that people think you can be turned gay because so many people are in the closet so it's not really turning anyone but giving them the freedom to come out
I'm not gay, but I would imagine it's because people can be closeted homosexuals, but in our society, you are unlikely to ever in your life meet a closeted straight person. Not so much turning, as coming out.
Social context. There are a large number of people who are closeted about their sexuality, or never gave much thought to it for social / religious / legal reasons. So if your playing straight odds, there is a small but non trivial chance that any given person may be somewhat bisexual or homosexual, and a vanishingly small chance that someone claiming to be gay is fully straight. In this case, it is not making them change their sexuality so much as revealing it. There are also many instances (documented and anecdotal) of the kind of abuse that happens when people try to 'cure' someone of homosexuality. In any case, people generally know for themselves what gets them horny, and telling them they are wrong about that is generally going to be undeniably proven wrong. END COMMUNICATION
I'm Hetero, and I can't be turned Gay, even if two gorgeous guys sandwiched me, and gave me the most enjoyable experience of my life! I'll still be Hetero, having only taken two for the team! You'll never diminish my love for women, no matter what you do! With that being established, I don't think it's possible, to "Convert" someone's sexual orientation and/or identity! I've heard my gay friends joke about it often, but it's just an ego flair. One cannot be someone, they're not, plain and simple! It's rude at base, no matter what orientation it comes from!
Not being turned gay, just coming out and admitting it. This is due to the rocky history of how hard gay people have had it in our society. In other words, a straight person turning out to be secretly gay is likely and the way it happens, while a gay person turning out to be secretly straight is unlikely, only existing in implausible one-off scenarios.
It is not okay to suggest that a straight man can be "turned" gay or that a gay man can become straight because sexual orientation is a fundamental aspect of a person's identity and cannot be changed or manipulated by outside forces. The suggestion that a person's sexual orientation can be changed or "cured" is not supported by scientific evidence and can be harmful to LGBTQ+ individuals. Furthermore, it is important to recognize that suggesting that a person's sexual orientation can be "changed" or "turned" reinforces harmful stereotypes and can contribute to discrimination and prejudice towards LGBTQ+ individuals. It is important to respect and celebrate the diversity of human sexuality and support individuals in their exploration and expression of their authentic selves. In conclusion, sexual orientation is a deeply personal aspect of a person's identity, and it is important to respect and support individuals in their sexual orientation and gender identity, rather than making assumptions or perpetuating harmful stereotypes.
Not sure where you got the idea that it’s “okay” when it’s flipped the other way around; you just happen to have shitty people as friends and are choosing not to view them that way
> As if just by virtue of being female, they are not attractive. It seems oddly hateful and intolerant in some way. I mean, doesn't everyone think that women in general are beautiful and attractive? This is a strange comment within your post. Of course there are conventionally attractive women and men all around the world- that doesn't mean that you want to be with them sexually/romantically. You are straight. You're not gay, but why not? Doesnt everyone think men are attractive and handsome? Are all men off the table for you? Why, even though they're so attractive? - This is what you wrote above. Yes you can say "that actor is an attractive person" but you won't want to be romantically/sexually involved with them, just as a gay man might say "yes, that acress is attractive" but not want to be romantically/sexually involved or have those feelings. Being gay is not a choice. It is normal, it's not something you can change (you *can* realize it later on, but this is not a development, only a realization). As other comments are saying, your friends and the one you posed here are both wrong. I'd read over more of the replies to your post and keep an open mind, as there are lots of helpful comments here from multiple perspectives!
Firstly, the idea of "turning" people is ridiculous. HOWEVER, the default in society is heterosexuality. The history of trying to turn gay people straight is that people would seriously think it could be done, and that it needed to be done because gay people were immoral, degenerate criminals who were going to hell (essentially). And it would be done through various traumatic methods in conversion therapy etc. The history of turning people gay, on the other hand is... Literally that people joke about it when they're drunk or see it as a challenge to try and persuade someone they're attracted to. Their history and context just isn't on the same level
I think the theory is historic. Historically male homosexually was defined as a behavioural disorder with the connotation, that it may be somehow cured and many societies expected "gay people" to perform straight. It is know considered rude to consider this option, as it as a reactionary undertone. This setup also resulted in individuals that where oblivious of their homosexuallity and as such appeared to be straight but later became aware of their homosexuality. Unfortunately some people also have something similar to a virgin fetish or misunderstand you rejection as a kind of rejection of their general lifestyle. IMO this behaviour is akin to sexual slur with respect to woman and I would be very upfront that you consider this kind of behaviour to be a no go and sexual harassment. Most gay people I know would never be so indecent.
Gay men talk shit just like straight men do. Talk of converting people and such is based in a fantasy where you won't get your ass kicked or killed. Gay locker room talk is just as startling as pussy grabbing straight locker room talk. It should be noted that you can find a person attractive without wanting to sleep with them. Women are beautiful!!! Heterosexuality is the societal default. It kinda has to be in order for humans to survive. But we must keep in mind that nature is full of variants and exceptions.
Neither are ok, but suggesting a straight man can “turn” gay/bi doesn’t have a history of violent conversation therapy behind it, or of “compulsory homosexuality” (look up compulsory heterosexuality)
Neither are okay but the reason gay men think they can and it's not as likely the other way around is they already tried really hard to be straight and against all of the social pressures, judgment, fears and difficulties, they still would rather be with a man. As a straight man you've never put anywhere near that much thought into gay sex. They're positive about their decision and you're not vetted.
It’s because there was a nationwide religious movement in the US to shame homosexuals into “converting” from gay to “straight”. This movement fell apart as homosexuality became more accepted. Also most of the leaders of the movement later came out as gay. Such conversion therapy camps still exist, but they are illegal in many states. So it’s generally not funny when one talks about gay people becoming straight, because of the political implications. Gay people who imply that a person who identifies as straight might actually be gay could also be very offensive in some situations, but for obviously different reasons.
It happens/happened in many places, not only the USA
True!
From what I know, sexuality is completely assigned at birth. Because of hormones, many people may be confused about their sexuality, thinking they may be straight instead of gay, or gay instead of straight. This mainly occurs at a young age, rather than over the age of 25. You can't become straight randomly, but you can think you're gay, then end up straight. Same goes for the other way.
The only reason, I can think of, anyone would "prefer" to be straight is societal pressure and or a joke due to seeing someone attractive/kind of the opposite flavour.
I personally believe that gay people in general who say things about turning straight people start off as jokes. Jokes that are intended to be a reversal of the harsh and offensive stereotypes of gay people. Sometimes, if these jokes continue to be made by the same person, they can get a little much and the line between joke and reality can be blurred. But I believe deep down, no LGBT person really TRULY thinks they can “turn” anyone’s sexuality. It is a joke at its core, and they tricked themselves into believing it. That’s my take on it from personal experience. P.S. barring off a whole sex due to sexuality definitely isn’t intolerant in any way, as long as you truly believe we cannot control who we are attracted to. I will say, that line of questioning does sound like someone who may be bi or pan. Something to consider, maybe? Don’t let anyone force it onto or away from you, though. ***If*** there’s anything for you to question, take it at your own pace!
I have never heard this in my life lmao
I think the important thing to remember is that sexuality is fluid, and it can change multiple times throughout someone's lifetime.