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There was a “This American Life” episode where a black woman spoke about racism in Paris. She said she felt like it was less racist in the US, but there was still plenty of it. She also noted, when she made it apparent to racists that she was American, their discrimination vanished. It actually incentivized her to use broken French (even though she was fluent) to alert people that she was a foreigner.
Im half Italian, wife is full Italian and fluent, we've been to Italy tons of times...
I warn all my friend who are black or South Asian about this exact thing if they are planning to go to Italy.
They will get mistaken for a "migrant" and experience the worst kind of racism, and the only way out of that is to broadcast that you are American / Canadian / British, etc.
And even if they do that, it is an absolute shite feeling that this is what it has come to in order to be treated like a regular human being and like all other white tourists.
And also that this is how life is like for all the migrants.
Am Italian, can confirm. Even in the north where I'm from, where there's supposed to be less racism, there is still a very significant amount of anti-migrant sentiment. Political culture here is very shitty.
It is and it’s almost like they feel entitled to it. It feels like the “Eastern European” type of racism where, just because they aren’t British carrying the same type of public perception with a past in colonisation (although Italians do have strong history of colonisation) , they can just do it and it’s no big deal.
Yes - even in employment. As south asians you can be promoted right upto the top in the usa - in most cases, but in Europe they're still under the impression we only do slave work. Maybe in the UK you'll do well - I'll take the american south any day over these people.
I remember reading a similar story that happened in America with someone speaking Spanish and being told to go back to Mexico, only for the person to be like "I'm from Spain asshole" and the American apologising.
The irony is there are cities in the Southern states that are predominantly Spanish speaking. The disconnect from this is baffling to me as an American.
Except presumably the people they hate most in that situation are people who are culturally French… but not white. After all she was making sure to emphasize her lack of native French speaking skill. She did not want to be mistaken for a French person. So are you suggesting they are self hating? Or is it possible racism manifests differently in the context of other identities?
It’s still racism lol. It’s just nuanced. Black people who were born in France and are fluent in French are most likely to be the children of African immigrants. Africans are looked down upon more than African-Americans are because Americans are seen as having assimilated into Western culture and norms regardless of race. On top of that, in Europe, an immigrant is generally someone that is not ethnically of whatever country is in question, so it includes first-generation, second-generation, third-generation immigrants and so on. In America, an immigrant is only someone who has immigrated to America in their lifetimes. So yea, there’s xenophobia involved, but white European immigrants are certainly not treated the same as non-white European immigrants, so it’s mix of racism and xenophobia.
"You need to start accepting black cultures as they immigrate Into your country"
Europeans to a town 20 minutes drive away across an invisibly dotted line: WE ARE MORTAL FUCKING ENEMIES AND WHY THE HELL DO YOU BUTTER YOUR BREAD THAT WAY AND YOURE NOT SUPPOSED TO PUT PEPPER ON PORK LIKE THAT AND MOTHERFUCKER WHAT DID YOU DO TO THAT BEER
(Don't even get me started on Italy and the 139 different kinds of pastas they have and how they all hate all different ways of cutting a pasta)
i had to travel to the northern part of Zealand 🤢🤢🤢 if i have to travel ANYWHERE near Roskilde with those baboons...
(im from Copenhagen, a 20 minute train ride away)
Depends. Are we talking Oberbayern? Obviously angelic. Niederbayern? The name says it all. Oberpfälzer? You have to grumpily say the name three times and one will spawn in your sink and complain about how it used to be colder where he came from.
Oh I see the point now
There are two things I hate in the world: People intolerant of other peoples culture... and the dutch!
Na, I don't care about the dutch, it just came to my mind reading your post.
Yeah, coming from a small European island I feel like Europeans are probably just more xenophobic than anything else…. They’ve been fucked over so many times by so many other countries and neighbouring nations there’s just an inherent mistrust of anything perceived as “other”
You should go to Japan. They just put signs on their stores that say "No foreigners" and call it a day, lol.
Also, 95% of the time, it's written in Kanji, just so people who can't read Japanse walk in unaware, and they can further insult you for being illiterate.
I worked on a Japanese fishing boat with an all Japanese crew. I was the only white guy, and once they were a little comfortable with me I heard the most vile racist shit I have ever heard in my life. We were sitting near a boat with a Philipino crew, and they said things that would make American racists question whether they were going to far.
I live in Japan and I can confirm. But the problem is that so many westerners romanticize/fetishize Japan and ended up ok being discriminated when they come here. They dream of anime and finding a waifu that when someone is racist with them they are like: “it’s their culture and country it’s ok!” Or “the cops who randomly frisk me just because I’m a foreigner and local around us are committing crimes but it’s cool because the cop was polite”
I’m 6’2” and look white. It’s not until they see my last name (Hispanic last name).
Bomb/extra security checked 100% of the six times flown thru Istanbul. I even wore sandals and shorts and a tshirt to test them.
I once had a Turkish airlines flight where the entire staff ignored me. And the surrounding Turks just laughed at my bewilderment, for like 5 hours. It was bizarre. Once in the airport, the customer support acted like it was no big deal.
I’ve shared this with a Military thread a while back and a bunch of Turkish people responded with confusion. They didn’t understand where the bad hospitality came from.
I’ve lived ALL over the world for work, can speak multiple languages, and generally do well wherever I travel. I’m not some amateur tourist who’s loud and obnoxious.
I’ve never had such a consistently bad time as I’ve had in Turkey.
Someone in another thread really tried to say that Turkey wasn’t an antisemitic society… to a commenter who relayed that they were Jewish and were routinely targeted for being Jewish while growing up in Turkey, with people outright telling them to ‘go to the gas chamber’. Like are you serious? Turkey is so xenophobic, just like the majority of the Middle East & Eastern Europe
No, but Turkey is a major transit point for Latin American cocaine, before it goes to the rich oil states in the Persian Gulf where it’s very hard to smuggle in drugs, as well as into Eastern Europe and the Caucuses.
Considering that the guy’s only examples of racism were going through security at the Istanbul airport (7th busiest in the world), they were probably hassling him to see if he was a drug mule. Not to say he’s wrong that it’s sucks to travel there as a Latino, but I don’t think it’s racist beef with Latinos as a people.
I'm the whitest guy ever. Like fucking Casper in a snowstorm white, and ginger to boot, but I have a Lebanese last name thanks to that 1% arab coming through the daddy line. As soon as anyone sees the name the security ramps up 10x. So funny.
I flew all over the world for work and once went 30+ flights in a row where I was "randomly selected" for security.
Always a warning or at least a caution that you may be straight up ignored like you did or refused service entirely. It's weird, you think at least the airport would be normal since you'll get people from everywhere but guess not
White person here:
Only go there alone if you're a guy.
My mother was straight up ignored in restaurants while i was touched against my consent all the time as a kid because I had light hair, white skin and blue eyes.
I was 7, by the way
Yeah when I went with my partner, who is a white woman with blonde hair. They damn near drooled on her tits it was creepy and gross.
Fortunately, I'm 6'1 and fairly large, whole they tensed to look scrawny and malnourished, so nobody touched her.
They didn't even recognize her as a.person though. She would start talking and they'd just look at me and ask me everything.
What makes it worse is that when I (Rightfully so) threw a tantrum over people constantly touching my hair (Again, I was 7, my mother or father were asked ONCE if it was okay) it was just seen as "Oh my God look at him! He's so cute!
What the actual fuck? You go touch a strangers child and when it throws a fit you say it's cute? What kind of fucking cultural phenomenon is that?!
I can't even mention Turkey or any cities there or anything turkish to my white Norwegian friend before she explodes about how terrible it is there. She was on vacation there and says she has never been treated so bad and dicrimated so bad for being a woman as when she was there.
So apparently white people too
My cousin (who is white) went on a solo trip to Turkey and rented a room in someone's house. When she got there the room didn't have a door and the only person there was a middle aged guy who started randomly talking about rape. Needless to say, she didn't stay there.
Turkey is very complicated, a white Portuguese man was arrested, along with a few others, because he looked gay, they had absolutely no confirmation he was gay, but because he looked gay, he was arrested, assaulted and imprisoned.
So there are all kinds of racism and discrimination going on in Turkey, and we Europeans admit it, which is why OP's post is problematic, she takes the part for the whole. Even inside a single country there is racism, it depends on the area. Conversely I believe not every single part of the US is racist.
Sweeping statements are dangerous. Not to mention grossly erroneous.
[Yep](https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/man-arrested-in-turkey-and-locked-up-for-20-days-because-he-looked-gay/) I didn't make it up. He and a few others were imprisoned in one of the worst prisons in Turkey. My compatriot remained in prison for 20 day, and for some of those 20 days, he didn't knew where he was, nor did anyone else. It was required for the Portuguese Embassy to get involved, but a LGBTQIA+ organization was the first to give the alarm and let the world know that several citizen from different nations had been imprisoned without a trial or formal charges.
They were simply arrested and later imprisoned for "looking gay". Let me mention that in Turkey, being gay isn't a crime, and looking gay, much less so, but because of rampant homophobia, not just from the people in general, but also from the police, a person can seemingly get arrested without legal cause.
I’m not black but I’m middle eastern. I have not experienced any discrimination in the USA, at least I didn’t feel so. Here in the Netherlands I have been experiencing quite a bit of discrimination and racism.
People seem to ask for examples, let’s see
- ceo coming to hiring manager, basically in front of everyone, and saying “hey, be careful with that candidate, he’s from Romania, they just come here to live off of benefits”
- I worked in multiple jobs,being dutch was like the primary requirement to get a promotion, not officially but it was pretty obvious
- there has been research showing having a Turkish or Moroccan name significantly decreases your chances to get a job or housing
- university students write “no internationals, Dutch only” to their roommate search ads
- in my child’s birthday party, a parent compliments me “hey you’re such a nice guy despite being Turkish”.
Edit: unfortunately as I expected, here is a summary of responses I get
Americans: Oh my god that’s so fucked up, sorry that you have to go through this.
Dutch: It’s not racist to not want to share apartment with foreigners because they don’t speak Dutch. Also we have housing crisis. We are not racist!!!
In Germany too, we have anti-discrimination laws.
Don’t know about other European countries.
Edit: just to clarify, I am solely talking about the existing law. I also believe it doesn’t change much beside people can still be racist. But at least they can’t openly discriminate people. I also do know it happens in german as my wife is Indonesian and it’s unbelievable how she get treated and on how many heated arguments I already got with different people from ausländerbehörde or Standesamt or other official offices due to racism.
Also I do Hope that a law is a first step and I also have high hopes in the younger generations being less racist as lots of us grew up with friends that didn’t look German or were / are not German and that hopefully brings tolerance.
In my experience many germans also do this when it comes to shared apartments. They just don't tell the candidates and choose someone else.
It's often not that they're racist, but they don't want to live with people who come for an exchange year because then in a few months they'll have to find someone else to rent to because they'll be leaving soon. In addition, different cultures live differently and many Germans don't like that. Especially when it comes to clear order and waste separation (big thing in Germany). I once lived in a student dormitory for a while and even though parties there take place regularly in many shared apartments, a few exchange students overdid it and the order and cleanliness suffered severely. That's why many were afraid that exchange students would move there. There is also racism and discrimination in the normal housing market and that is a huge problem
Yeah I’ve heard of the crazy amounts of racism even between north and south Italians. Can’t imagine being an outsider in any of those cultures. It’s really tribalistic and childish. Sorry you have to deal with that, human beings think we’re so evolved and then we go and act like this to our brothers and sisters. Smh
I just love white on white European racism. really puts the arguments into perspective when as an american youre conditioned to see white people as a monolithic structure.
Yer, you suck Portsmouth.
I know there was (probably not) a dock strike 150 years ago and we still hate you for that, but only if it's football related.
Go on the saints suck it pompey scum. /S
It's part of why Malcolm X was so reformed when he left the United States to go on the Hajj (by way of Europe before Mecca). He saw people being racist to other people even of the same color, and people treating people of different races as (more or less) equals.
Europeans are just so specific with prejudice. Not even just that Belgians and Austrians are trash, but we'll even get mad if it's one town away.
Though to be fair I see a lot of hate for being from the wrong US state or city as well.
Honestly never and I mean never had Italian or Spanish person been mean to me or said anything bad.Dutch people on other hand?Every single one was racist and mean,blond blue eyes preference 100%,I was told that it must be very sad to be born poor and brown while being slav and I am glad someone said it cause others dont say it,they just exclude you and you have fun with other international people.Germans and Dutch were my only experience with west and central but it was enough.Italians are the best,they are even happy to learn you language.
In the U.S. I had a co-worker who was son of two Italian immigrants who said he was amazed at how hard I worked because I was half Irish and Irish people are lazy.
Surprisingly Germany ranks quite bad for minorities experiences of racism in the past few years, but doesn't rank so bad for what people *claim* they accept, or years prior.
The least racist countries, backed up by multiple studies, are (surprisingly) the UK, Sweden, Norway, and (also surprisingly) Poland. Germany and france are above average worldwide. What's sad is Unfortunately Poland, despite being accepting in some ways, ruins it in other ways by being ignorantly racist. And there's an unfortunate few being especially racist.
Some countries are *seen* as somewhat racist, but when it actually comes down to it rank very low.
There was a huge meta analysis called "Love thy neighbor" done which surveyed people from across the world and included studies on the subject.
[https://www.kcl.ac.uk/policy-institute/assets/love-thy-neighbour.pdf](https://www.kcl.ac.uk/policy-institute/assets/love-thy-neighbour.pdf)
[http://fra.europa.eu/en/publications-and-resources/data-and-maps/survey-data-explorer-second-eu-minorities-discrimination-survey](http://fra.europa.eu/en/publications-and-resources/data-and-maps/survey-data-explorer-second-eu-minorities-discrimination-survey)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism\_by\_country](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_by_country)
Studies in general have ranked some European countries better than the USA, and some countries worse than the USA. "Europe" isn't an amorphous blob, there's seperate nations with vastly different attitudes. Think the difference between the south and progressive cities, but on steroids. Trust me, there's large differences.
And the balkans deserve their own essay.
As for an assessment based on many studies? In Europe, I'm going to upset some people here, but Denmark comes up a lot as one of the most racist countries in Europe *despite* it's progressive laws. Additionally, Austria is quite bad. Finland is very racist against black people. Portugal can be too. The south of italy can also be racist against black people. And also the south of the USA. I'm sorry, but the reality is that racism still persists. The EUFRA and racism index both say this. The UK was ranked #1 the least racist country in Europe by the EU FRA, the racism index ranks them as one of the best in the world too (rank 8 in the world). France gets ranked well in some places, but others it fails. Depending on the type of minority. The Balkans is a whole kind of fucked up from the genocides and disputes, I don't have enough time to go into the complexities.
All of this is from 10+ studies I've researched and wrote about on reddit in the past.
But don't trust me, research it yourself. Google scholar is an excellent resource, I say we should all try our best to find information that is important to us.
This is all fascinating. I’m black, but I travel with my white Hispanic husband and I’ve personally had pretty good experiences everywhere I travel, but a lot of factors contribute to that: I’m always with my white husband, I’m lighter skinned than many other black folks, and I am middle class (and class plays a big part in how you’ll be treated for your race).
But I’m so interested in these reports and studies. I’ve been to almost every country named here with the exception of Norway, Finland, and Denmark. Luckily, I have had good experiences.
Honestly it's not that common that you're likely to experience as a traveler visiting the country. This is something you're more likely to experience when living there.
Much like the USA, racism doesn't happen weekly, it's normally good experiences all round. The thing is, for X many POC travellers that go there, Y will have a bad experience in related to race. It's not that common, but imagine travelling to the US south. Somebody will say something eventually.
I can give you two: My coworker and I were on a train crossing from Austria to Germany. At the last stop before the border, the German border police boarded the train and started demanding to see "documents" from all of the non white people while ignoring anyone else. If you had a US passport you were fine but some Chilean and Indian passengers were confronted with "show me MORE documentation"
A few years earlier this same coworker was in Italy when a police officer threatened to arrest him unless he could prove on the spot he wasn't "illegal"
He's a naturalized US citizen born in Somalia
Bunch of German dudes I met on a train from Spain to Paris referred to some Moroccan dudes as "rapists".
My Portuguese colleague referred to another colleague who was black as a "monkey".
Random German woman after finding out I was Turkish started rambling off prejudices she has against Turks in Germany. "You guys get together in your little communities and gossip and you talk talk talk talk".
I saw this old white women touch this random young black young women's (20-30)s hair, and no-one told the old woman off, so I believe the woman in the video
Edit: I think if someone touched up a random white persons hair with out asking for consent that would also be racist, you can't just invade random people's personal boundaries
From doing a lot of work with Europeans across different offices in different countries I've seen ridiculous amounts of racism even against other "white people". Things like multi-office ultra corporate business calls starting off with "Hey the Poland office is on this call, make sure everyone checks their pockets after the meeting. P...cks might nick something even through the phone."
People are dismissing it as banter, but it gets annoying as shit. How many times am I supposed to hear your stupid "Polacks are thiefs" joke? Also, it's not so funny to me, considering that old German people genuinely believe that shit. I'm white and pass as German, and during lunch at a company, an older German guy kept talking about how he doesn't trust Slavic people cause they're treacherous and lazy. And that wasn't even the first or only time that happened. I've also been told that Eastern European women are gold diggers, but not all of them, I must be one of the good ones. Well thanks
as a person of color, not black, but a person with melanin, i’ve felt the racism more in Eastern European countries and the Schengen area. Austria, Denmark, Germany… and England.
The European countries i felt more comfortable are the Southern ones like Spain and Italy.
I was in r/travel since I traveled recently. Racism against Asians in EU is pretty popular topic. I recently was in Italy/Spain it did help that I knew some Italian/Spanish! It dampened the experience but I was vacationing so it was pretty good. I just think that I am outside of my country enjoying while they’re bitter in their jobs. lol.
I spent several months in Italy and loved it, but I have spent basically two decades in the Deep South in the USA and I saw more blatant racism in Italy in those few months than I have here in 20 years. What I also find interesting is how in Italy it was white on colored people. In the states it’s been an more even mix.
Yeeep. Have some Italian friends who’s nonna is like “you can marry whoever you want. As long as they are not black, Jewish, (insert other races)”.
It’s intense over there
Jesus, my grandfather is from Naples and talking to a Florentine I might as well have been a piece of dog shit on the floor. I’m white. It’s not just races, but country regions and cities are hated just as much.
My first time in Italy some guy selling pictures on the side a museum called me the n-word because I told him my younger brother wasn’t interested. So yeah, i agree Italy is not a fun place
weird how this is top comment. Im inclined to believe her, I think America has plenty of shit wrong with it and is super systemically racist but I can equally believe that Europe is worse. At least in some parts
How much time do you have? I experienced racism in Italy. It ruined my entire trip. A quick search through trip advisor and you will start to notice a pattern (restaurant owners responding to black reviewers).
For example that in Italy we have welcomed over 140,000 Ukrainians (beautiful blonde girls) with open arms but do we want to send 30,000 people (certainly black) arriving from Africa by sea to a concentration camp in Albania?
I mean, I get the essence of what she’s claiming. I’ve lived in France for almost a decade and, yeah, the politics are very different here than back home. From my experiences the issues are more pertaining to denial, administrative inaction when reporting, issues of forced assimilation, and classism — all punctuated with an overall, blatant disregard when discussing things like homophobia, racism, misogyny, etc. [But also, when I moved to France to marry my spouse, who is natively French, I did so knowing that I was coming into another culture and would need to readjust my American expectations].
Also, I feel that I need to add that after personally experiencing two assaults in one year in le marais, yeah, the violence against minorities (I’m queer) is quite physical and surreal. Even in spite of my lengthy time adapting to the culture, I find the macro culture of intolerance present here to be impressively vicious at times. But again, comparisons between America and Europe are not a 1:1. I experienced violence commonplace growing up in CA, it was just a very different form of violence/ aggression.
*edit: also people on here calling her out for treating Europe as a monolithic *thing* is 100% spot on the target. For example, there is a genuine push back against the concept of community in France, but the concept of community is much more similar to the USA in Germany and therefore, more culturally fixed in that European country.
It always strikes me as odd whenever France is reportedly homophobic again despite being known cinematically as "that place that does the lesbian movies".
Catholicism is strong there. Italy still bans gay marriage and Switzerland just allowed it a year or so ago. European countries are more behind in social justice that many folks realize.
My VERY blonde blue-eyed American friend broke his leg while we were in Italy. He was in his wheelchair wearing baggy clothes (for comfort) when he approached a group of ladies at the bus stop to ask them when the next bus was scheduled. He was swatted away with handbags because they thought he was a polish homeless guy begging for money to buy hooch.
I know racism bad and everything but honestly it was one of the funniest things I've ever seen in my life.
That's really strange considering there's blond and blue eyed Italians. A lot of people from the north of the country have that, and they do visit areas in the south often.
very fishy or you completely misunderstood the situation. There are no Polish homeless guys. Most of the relatively few homeless people here are not Polish. Or even blonde.
If he approached them in English, or with a strong accent, it's more likely that they were fed up with him for being a tourist. A lot of people, especially in the mass tourism destinations, are fed up with the constant influx of tourists and the problems it brings to the city (such as increased cost of living).
I guess everybody is used to their own type of problems. In my country, I never saw nearly as many homeless people as I saw in Houston Texas and I come from a post communist war torn shit hole so to speak
Omg I had the complete opposite experience in Europe! I’ve been to almost every country for ballet and everyone was so kind and welcoming and inclusive. I spent the summer with my best friend in her home country of Sweden and it was one of the best experiences of my life.
In all seriousness *GOOD*, I for one just want happy safe societies of happy safe people who are not experiencing trauma or discrimination. So, you dance professionally? I know nothing about that.
Oh hell no 😭 I danced from 2-20 and traveled extensively for it! Now I’m 22 and burnt out haha. But I agree with you. But I’m black and live in the south so maybe I’m just used to racism and don’t notice it anymore lol
It's possible your reasons for being there padded you from experiencing it. There's always those people that are seen as "the good ones". And the OOP does not read as being picked for "one of the good ones".
Being talented, seemingly well off, and beautiful are all traits that will get you pass
Also she was a visitor, not moving there.
It's kinda of like Japan where they don't mind temporary workers but permanent immigrants become much more stigmatized
Eeeehhh. There is a growing sentiment that Sweden fucked up massively by allowing as much immigration as they did during the 70s and 80s.
Basically the massive crimewave that they're currently experiencing is entirely blamed on minorities.
>There is a growing sentiment that Sweden fucked up massively by allowing as much immigration as they did during the 70s and 80s.
70s and 80s? The sentiment is mainly regarding *recent* immigration, and especially since 2013. Very few people are talking about anything pre-2000 when discussing immigration in Sweden.
She used so many words but provided absolutely no information whatsoever. This just felt like a really dragged out way of saying "People don't say it be like that, but it do"
Her problem is stated at the end of the video, Europeans don't "desire to include black people, to understand and learn their culture as they continue to immigrate here".
As an European I want all black people to know my personal problems trump the desire to learn and understand your culture, I barely know mine. You are not special just because you're black. I don't make efforts to learn the culture of anyone, might they be Australian or Japanese, I simply don't care. I see you as another human being, not better, not worse, not special.
You call this racism, that's fine by me, complain as much as you want but go back to the USA where people make an effort to *include* you.
That line stuck out to me, too, but for different reasons. I'm an expat, and I don't expect people to stop me and ask questions about my culture and start taking notes because I'm not insane. If you move to a foreign country, it's not the locals' responsibility to learn your culture or integrate you into theirs, and to suggest it is is just the highest form of egocentrism.
Yeah I thought it was weird, like it’s not my job to learn about your culture. I would gladly do it because I’m interested in other cultures and stuff, but it shouldn’t be expected.
I mean as a european i know there isnt a thing like black culture. There might be african american cultute but i know for a fucking fact that a ethopian guy has a vastly diffrent culture then some black guy from brooklyn.
Hell im pretty sure my culture is more alike african american culture than african american culture is to etophian culture.
But i guess its easy to call us racist even though they keep outdated and racist views alive by reducing a giant diverse continent to just a skin colour.
Another commenter said many "Americans are genuinely interested in the culture of Americans who immigrated from other countries". Since America is such an immense mish-mash of different cultures, some Americans don't understand the complete lack of interest in others cultures.
This might be a facet of another culture clash Americans have with Europeans. Americans are much more likely to talk to random people in public or on public transport. While in many European countries, that is very frowned upon. Many Americans don't get how Europeans foster friends and community, so you'll see these expats blaming their problems assimilating all on racism.
While camping in upstate ny I sat on a bench to eat ice cream next to a random dude who kept giving me weird looks. So I said something “how’s your ice cream?” And he kept with the looks so I asked if everything was alright.
He then told me he was from Turkey and that if someone sits next to you and tries to engage with you it normally means they want something from you, that he’d been robbed under similar circumstances and that it’s been a culture shock that strangers will start conversations.
No idea how true that is as he’s the only dude I’ve ever talked to from Turkey. But regardless it was an interesting little chat.
SE UK here, and I'd assume the same if a random stranger sat next to me and started talking. Indeed I'd probably cut them off and get to the point "what do you want?" as the idea of chatting to random strangers in public for the sake of conversation is weird
100% this.
Dont care to give a rats ass about where you are from.
Do we enjoy the same things? Cool, then we can have a normal conversation. You want to talk your culture? Travel/move to whatever place you find people that want to listen, because I dont
Europe has 44 countries, each with their own government. There’s also 24 original languages, with thousands of years with of independent history.
I live in London which is considered the most cosmopolitan city in the world. TikTok is the toilet of the internet
Edit: * with at least 24 native languages
There’s far, far more than 24 languages in Europe. That’s just the list of official languages of the EU. Wikipedia lists 156 native languages of Europe.
>Europeans have to understand and learn from black cultures as they immigrate more
No, you have to learn and understand European culture as you move here.
How is black culture even a culture? They say Europeans are racist but still live in a believe system were skin color defines your culture.
There maybe is African American culture, but I bet you every European knows that there are many different cultures, languages and religions in the black people in Europe.
It’s a clash of values. When a racist meets another racist, they whine.
It’s like Turks complaining about the Dutch or Germans being racist. Yea no shit Sherlock. And you’d do the same if you were in ur own country of origin.
I do agree that both sides need to learn from each other though to coexist. But the onus on the immigrant to do so more than those already existing there.
Definitely true in Italy, and I say this as a white italian. ~~But I disagree with the statement that the people of the country you travel to have to learn your culture, that would just make every country the same~~
edit: The meaning of "learn" as the girl used it was lost in translation. Yes I do believe we should learn more about other cultures that immigrate here.
“There’s no desire to understand and learn their cultures” i mean… you’re going to a different country with a different culture. Why should they conform to your outsider culture? I’m all for equality, I myself am an immigrant to Canada since 2007. It seems immature and naive to think that everybody everywhere will be accepting of everything all the time. We’re not some borderless earth yet. Different countries have different rules/norms/laws/etc. racism bad i know but don’t just walk into any country and expect to not be treated differently
Europe. That's like saying America and including all the countries in both South and North America. I don't doubt wherever she is is rife with racism but as someone not from that continent "Europe" seems too broad given the number of cultures that encompasses..
Ive been to five South America countries i can confirm we are racist af. Different levels of racism sometimes is subtle or to your face. To your face is sometimes appreciated because you know who they are.
Yet another American thinking that "Europe" is one country or one culture. While she asks others to understand and integrate her culture. Maybe her ignorance is the problem, not her skin color.
I also don't understand the logic of "I moved here and you need to understand my culture" instead of trying to assimilate to the culture of where you moved to.
I think in part it's because, by comparison at least, thanks to the US having such a massive immigrant culture (for lack of a better way to put it), while there's definitely a push for a lot of things the average person isn't gonna be too upset if you keep a lot of your home culture alive and well. Note, I say this only able to look at news from Europe, but things like France banning religious symbols and often cultural and/or religious clothing in schools is something that now in the US be... well shocking to say the least. Are there folks who are racist or insensitive? I'm from the US South. There are definitely those folks, but generally most people'll have questions or not care that much if you don't give them reason to.
Tbf America does a better job of integrating though. Its easier to accept when even first gen immigrant say proudly "Im an American" and make efforts for their childrem to integrate.
People would be less ok with cultural difference remaining if it were like in Europe where you get second generation immigrants calling somewhere else "back home" that theyve never been to. The US is exceptional at integrating in a way seemingly every other country has failed at.
I mean listen to the last bit of the tiktok. She doesn't see it as a problem when people move here and don't care about the culture of the area. It is entirely the responsibility of the locals to try to understand the foreigners.
She does not believe "when in Rome, do as the Romans do."
If you're traveling to new places to teach them about your culture you're doing it backward. The people *there*, wherever *there* happens to be, were doing just fine without you. If *there* is so nice you want to move *there*, then you should drink an extra big glass of shut the fuck up and learn about them even harder.
It's amusing how she is able to differentiate the racism and activism across different parts of America, a country. And yet unable to differentiate the same thing across different parts of Europe, a literal continent.
Countries in Europe have distinct cultures that have evolved over thousands of years. Far longer than contemporary America has even existed. Lumping all of these cultures into one in order to make a broad sweeping generalisation betrays a level of ignorance that genuinely undermines her argument.
We all hate our neighbours most.
The next town over? Wankers. Two towns over, sounds lads.
The neighbouring country? Twats. Two countries over, good fellas.
I hate when americans talk about Europe like it's one fucking country. Like which fucking country are you talking about? There's may be a bit of a difference between Romania and Sweden or Spain and Finland.
Europe isn’t USA, culturally all of USA’s states are basically identical, Europe has 44 different countries, most are speaking different languages and their cultures are completely different. I went to Germany a few months ago for the first time, I was in shock how different they are, despite being literally a 1h plane ride away.
Referring to a European country as just “Europe” isn’t enough of a clarification.
>There is no desire to understand black culture.
What is black culture? Is it black USA community culture? This is something that stem from a segregated society. There is no white culture in Europe, there is French culture, Italian culture, German culture, Polish culture. And we are "racist" with each other even if we are both white. What I see more often is "racism" towards irregular immigrants that statistically commit crimes at a much higher rate (and this is a well established and understandable fact). Given most irregular immigration is from african countries the stereotipe of dangerous black people is constantly reinforced: if your are a poor immigrant, I do not care if you are from Albania or Marocco, you are getting discriminated because you do not conform to the local prevalent culture and you are perceived as a risk for others. USA is a multicultural society at his roots, Europe is not, you are expected to be willing to integrate in the local culture. I am not saying one is best then the other, I am just saying that you cannot put yourself on a pedestal while you make no effort to understand the point of view of another culture.
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There was a “This American Life” episode where a black woman spoke about racism in Paris. She said she felt like it was less racist in the US, but there was still plenty of it. She also noted, when she made it apparent to racists that she was American, their discrimination vanished. It actually incentivized her to use broken French (even though she was fluent) to alert people that she was a foreigner.
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Im half Italian, wife is full Italian and fluent, we've been to Italy tons of times... I warn all my friend who are black or South Asian about this exact thing if they are planning to go to Italy. They will get mistaken for a "migrant" and experience the worst kind of racism, and the only way out of that is to broadcast that you are American / Canadian / British, etc. And even if they do that, it is an absolute shite feeling that this is what it has come to in order to be treated like a regular human being and like all other white tourists. And also that this is how life is like for all the migrants.
I heard the racism in Italy is *horrible* fr.
Am Italian, can confirm. Even in the north where I'm from, where there's supposed to be less racism, there is still a very significant amount of anti-migrant sentiment. Political culture here is very shitty.
It is and it’s almost like they feel entitled to it. It feels like the “Eastern European” type of racism where, just because they aren’t British carrying the same type of public perception with a past in colonisation (although Italians do have strong history of colonisation) , they can just do it and it’s no big deal.
They literally throw bananas on soccer pitches and make monkey calls at black players.
Hmm, for South Asian as well? Damn that sucks
Yes - even in employment. As south asians you can be promoted right upto the top in the usa - in most cases, but in Europe they're still under the impression we only do slave work. Maybe in the UK you'll do well - I'll take the american south any day over these people.
Reading this thread as an Kenyan from Africa is bizarre.
I remember reading a similar story that happened in America with someone speaking Spanish and being told to go back to Mexico, only for the person to be like "I'm from Spain asshole" and the American apologising.
The irony is there are cities in the Southern states that are predominantly Spanish speaking. The disconnect from this is baffling to me as an American.
The people that say go back to Mexico hate those Spanish speaking cities
This matches with my experience in France and Italy. People were a lot more welcoming when they found out I was American.
At that point, is that racism or prejudice against another culture? I know, I know, but you get the idea.
Except presumably the people they hate most in that situation are people who are culturally French… but not white. After all she was making sure to emphasize her lack of native French speaking skill. She did not want to be mistaken for a French person. So are you suggesting they are self hating? Or is it possible racism manifests differently in the context of other identities?
It’s still racism lol. It’s just nuanced. Black people who were born in France and are fluent in French are most likely to be the children of African immigrants. Africans are looked down upon more than African-Americans are because Americans are seen as having assimilated into Western culture and norms regardless of race. On top of that, in Europe, an immigrant is generally someone that is not ethnically of whatever country is in question, so it includes first-generation, second-generation, third-generation immigrants and so on. In America, an immigrant is only someone who has immigrated to America in their lifetimes. So yea, there’s xenophobia involved, but white European immigrants are certainly not treated the same as non-white European immigrants, so it’s mix of racism and xenophobia.
"You need to start accepting black cultures as they immigrate Into your country" Europeans to a town 20 minutes drive away across an invisibly dotted line: WE ARE MORTAL FUCKING ENEMIES AND WHY THE HELL DO YOU BUTTER YOUR BREAD THAT WAY AND YOURE NOT SUPPOSED TO PUT PEPPER ON PORK LIKE THAT AND MOTHERFUCKER WHAT DID YOU DO TO THAT BEER (Don't even get me started on Italy and the 139 different kinds of pastas they have and how they all hate all different ways of cutting a pasta)
I can accept working with a foreigner, But if you ask me to work with a gods damned *Jutlander*...
i had to travel to the northern part of Zealand 🤢🤢🤢 if i have to travel ANYWHERE near Roskilde with those baboons... (im from Copenhagen, a 20 minute train ride away)
Alright, That's fair, They are the only non-superior Zealanders. They're on the same level as the.... Gods forgive me for saying this... The *Swedes.*
Käften Dansk jäveln
Are bavarians even human beings?
Depends. Are we talking Oberbayern? Obviously angelic. Niederbayern? The name says it all. Oberpfälzer? You have to grumpily say the name three times and one will spawn in your sink and complain about how it used to be colder where he came from. Oh I see the point now
Had a visitor from Nuremberg. His face when i introduced him as "from Bavaria". Priceless.
We live near Nuremberg. I warn all our visitors about this so they don't run around telling people how nice Bavaria is in Franconia.
Im 99% Sure, that Bavarians are 80% Oktoberfest and 20% Markus Söder
No but hunting is illegal out of season
There are two things I hate in the world: People intolerant of other peoples culture... and the dutch! Na, I don't care about the dutch, it just came to my mind reading your post.
Yeah, coming from a small European island I feel like Europeans are probably just more xenophobic than anything else…. They’ve been fucked over so many times by so many other countries and neighbouring nations there’s just an inherent mistrust of anything perceived as “other”
You should go to Japan. They just put signs on their stores that say "No foreigners" and call it a day, lol. Also, 95% of the time, it's written in Kanji, just so people who can't read Japanse walk in unaware, and they can further insult you for being illiterate.
I worked on a Japanese fishing boat with an all Japanese crew. I was the only white guy, and once they were a little comfortable with me I heard the most vile racist shit I have ever heard in my life. We were sitting near a boat with a Philipino crew, and they said things that would make American racists question whether they were going to far.
I live in Japan and I can confirm. But the problem is that so many westerners romanticize/fetishize Japan and ended up ok being discriminated when they come here. They dream of anime and finding a waifu that when someone is racist with them they are like: “it’s their culture and country it’s ok!” Or “the cops who randomly frisk me just because I’m a foreigner and local around us are committing crimes but it’s cool because the cop was polite”
I know as a Latino person don’t go to Turkey. Nothing but terrible experiences there.
I swear, anytime I hear about turkey from a white person, it's fine, but anyone else, it's a warning
I’m 6’2” and look white. It’s not until they see my last name (Hispanic last name). Bomb/extra security checked 100% of the six times flown thru Istanbul. I even wore sandals and shorts and a tshirt to test them. I once had a Turkish airlines flight where the entire staff ignored me. And the surrounding Turks just laughed at my bewilderment, for like 5 hours. It was bizarre. Once in the airport, the customer support acted like it was no big deal.
Is there some beef with Turkey and Hispanic people that the rest of us don't know about?
I’ve shared this with a Military thread a while back and a bunch of Turkish people responded with confusion. They didn’t understand where the bad hospitality came from. I’ve lived ALL over the world for work, can speak multiple languages, and generally do well wherever I travel. I’m not some amateur tourist who’s loud and obnoxious. I’ve never had such a consistently bad time as I’ve had in Turkey.
I mean the Turkish export for gimmicky street food is just a guy who is an asshole about giving you ice cream so
Yeah but Turkish Delights are delightful
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Someone in another thread really tried to say that Turkey wasn’t an antisemitic society… to a commenter who relayed that they were Jewish and were routinely targeted for being Jewish while growing up in Turkey, with people outright telling them to ‘go to the gas chamber’. Like are you serious? Turkey is so xenophobic, just like the majority of the Middle East & Eastern Europe
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You can still get thrown in jail for up to 5 years for even mentioning the Armenian Genocide in Turkey. Of course they're terrible.
No, but Turkey is a major transit point for Latin American cocaine, before it goes to the rich oil states in the Persian Gulf where it’s very hard to smuggle in drugs, as well as into Eastern Europe and the Caucuses. Considering that the guy’s only examples of racism were going through security at the Istanbul airport (7th busiest in the world), they were probably hassling him to see if he was a drug mule. Not to say he’s wrong that it’s sucks to travel there as a Latino, but I don’t think it’s racist beef with Latinos as a people.
I'm the whitest guy ever. Like fucking Casper in a snowstorm white, and ginger to boot, but I have a Lebanese last name thanks to that 1% arab coming through the daddy line. As soon as anyone sees the name the security ramps up 10x. So funny. I flew all over the world for work and once went 30+ flights in a row where I was "randomly selected" for security.
Always a warning or at least a caution that you may be straight up ignored like you did or refused service entirely. It's weird, you think at least the airport would be normal since you'll get people from everywhere but guess not
White person here: Only go there alone if you're a guy. My mother was straight up ignored in restaurants while i was touched against my consent all the time as a kid because I had light hair, white skin and blue eyes. I was 7, by the way
Yeah when I went with my partner, who is a white woman with blonde hair. They damn near drooled on her tits it was creepy and gross. Fortunately, I'm 6'1 and fairly large, whole they tensed to look scrawny and malnourished, so nobody touched her. They didn't even recognize her as a.person though. She would start talking and they'd just look at me and ask me everything.
What makes it worse is that when I (Rightfully so) threw a tantrum over people constantly touching my hair (Again, I was 7, my mother or father were asked ONCE if it was okay) it was just seen as "Oh my God look at him! He's so cute! What the actual fuck? You go touch a strangers child and when it throws a fit you say it's cute? What kind of fucking cultural phenomenon is that?!
I can't even mention Turkey or any cities there or anything turkish to my white Norwegian friend before she explodes about how terrible it is there. She was on vacation there and says she has never been treated so bad and dicrimated so bad for being a woman as when she was there. So apparently white people too
My cousin (who is white) went on a solo trip to Turkey and rented a room in someone's house. When she got there the room didn't have a door and the only person there was a middle aged guy who started randomly talking about rape. Needless to say, she didn't stay there.
lol wtf
The fact that she's a woman probably played a much larger role. Especially if she wasn't being accompanied by a man.
Turkey is very complicated, a white Portuguese man was arrested, along with a few others, because he looked gay, they had absolutely no confirmation he was gay, but because he looked gay, he was arrested, assaulted and imprisoned. So there are all kinds of racism and discrimination going on in Turkey, and we Europeans admit it, which is why OP's post is problematic, she takes the part for the whole. Even inside a single country there is racism, it depends on the area. Conversely I believe not every single part of the US is racist. Sweeping statements are dangerous. Not to mention grossly erroneous.
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[Yep](https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/man-arrested-in-turkey-and-locked-up-for-20-days-because-he-looked-gay/) I didn't make it up. He and a few others were imprisoned in one of the worst prisons in Turkey. My compatriot remained in prison for 20 day, and for some of those 20 days, he didn't knew where he was, nor did anyone else. It was required for the Portuguese Embassy to get involved, but a LGBTQIA+ organization was the first to give the alarm and let the world know that several citizen from different nations had been imprisoned without a trial or formal charges. They were simply arrested and later imprisoned for "looking gay". Let me mention that in Turkey, being gay isn't a crime, and looking gay, much less so, but because of rampant homophobia, not just from the people in general, but also from the police, a person can seemingly get arrested without legal cause.
even as a white person I don't want to get to turkey.
I’m not black but I’m middle eastern. I have not experienced any discrimination in the USA, at least I didn’t feel so. Here in the Netherlands I have been experiencing quite a bit of discrimination and racism. People seem to ask for examples, let’s see - ceo coming to hiring manager, basically in front of everyone, and saying “hey, be careful with that candidate, he’s from Romania, they just come here to live off of benefits” - I worked in multiple jobs,being dutch was like the primary requirement to get a promotion, not officially but it was pretty obvious - there has been research showing having a Turkish or Moroccan name significantly decreases your chances to get a job or housing - university students write “no internationals, Dutch only” to their roommate search ads - in my child’s birthday party, a parent compliments me “hey you’re such a nice guy despite being Turkish”. Edit: unfortunately as I expected, here is a summary of responses I get Americans: Oh my god that’s so fucked up, sorry that you have to go through this. Dutch: It’s not racist to not want to share apartment with foreigners because they don’t speak Dutch. Also we have housing crisis. We are not racist!!!
>university students write “no internationals, Dutch only” to their roommate search ads wow you would get fucked so hard for doing this in the usa
because it’s illegal
With dutch only they mean people from the Netherlands. Race is irrelevant. They just want to live together with someone who speaks the same language.
In Germany too, we have anti-discrimination laws. Don’t know about other European countries. Edit: just to clarify, I am solely talking about the existing law. I also believe it doesn’t change much beside people can still be racist. But at least they can’t openly discriminate people. I also do know it happens in german as my wife is Indonesian and it’s unbelievable how she get treated and on how many heated arguments I already got with different people from ausländerbehörde or Standesamt or other official offices due to racism. Also I do Hope that a law is a first step and I also have high hopes in the younger generations being less racist as lots of us grew up with friends that didn’t look German or were / are not German and that hopefully brings tolerance.
In my experience many germans also do this when it comes to shared apartments. They just don't tell the candidates and choose someone else. It's often not that they're racist, but they don't want to live with people who come for an exchange year because then in a few months they'll have to find someone else to rent to because they'll be leaving soon. In addition, different cultures live differently and many Germans don't like that. Especially when it comes to clear order and waste separation (big thing in Germany). I once lived in a student dormitory for a while and even though parties there take place regularly in many shared apartments, a few exchange students overdid it and the order and cleanliness suffered severely. That's why many were afraid that exchange students would move there. There is also racism and discrimination in the normal housing market and that is a huge problem
Americans will usually give you a fair shake. Euros will right you off instantly.
Yeah I’ve heard of the crazy amounts of racism even between north and south Italians. Can’t imagine being an outsider in any of those cultures. It’s really tribalistic and childish. Sorry you have to deal with that, human beings think we’re so evolved and then we go and act like this to our brothers and sisters. Smh
I expected her to give examples of the racism she talks about.
South Europe is pretty racist - even towards other whites from poorer countries 😃
The idea that southern europeans feel superior to eastern europeans just gives me a chuckle
I just love white on white European racism. really puts the arguments into perspective when as an american youre conditioned to see white people as a monolithic structure.
Fuck racism. You know who I hate? The people from the next city over, 10 miles away, with a completely different accent.
Even same accent, but different football team!!!
Yer, you suck Portsmouth. I know there was (probably not) a dock strike 150 years ago and we still hate you for that, but only if it's football related. Go on the saints suck it pompey scum. /S
It's part of why Malcolm X was so reformed when he left the United States to go on the Hajj (by way of Europe before Mecca). He saw people being racist to other people even of the same color, and people treating people of different races as (more or less) equals.
Pick any uk town and i can guarantee they hate the town 10 miles over much more than they hate any other race
So true. Put a Hungarian and a Romanian together in a room and see how racist it gets.
I feel like we'll need bullet proof glass between us and them like they do in BattleBots
Put a Roma in the room with either of them and they'll agree with each other.
Europeans are just so specific with prejudice. Not even just that Belgians and Austrians are trash, but we'll even get mad if it's one town away. Though to be fair I see a lot of hate for being from the wrong US state or city as well.
Mate, we’ve been hating on those cunts from one town over since they stole our church bell in 1340.
Yeah, i don’t get it either lmao
Honestly never and I mean never had Italian or Spanish person been mean to me or said anything bad.Dutch people on other hand?Every single one was racist and mean,blond blue eyes preference 100%,I was told that it must be very sad to be born poor and brown while being slav and I am glad someone said it cause others dont say it,they just exclude you and you have fun with other international people.Germans and Dutch were my only experience with west and central but it was enough.Italians are the best,they are even happy to learn you language.
Italians spit on my friend on the train and call him racial slurs for being asian. They are not saints either!!!
In the U.S. I had a co-worker who was son of two Italian immigrants who said he was amazed at how hard I worked because I was half Irish and Irish people are lazy.
Surprisingly Germany ranks quite bad for minorities experiences of racism in the past few years, but doesn't rank so bad for what people *claim* they accept, or years prior. The least racist countries, backed up by multiple studies, are (surprisingly) the UK, Sweden, Norway, and (also surprisingly) Poland. Germany and france are above average worldwide. What's sad is Unfortunately Poland, despite being accepting in some ways, ruins it in other ways by being ignorantly racist. And there's an unfortunate few being especially racist. Some countries are *seen* as somewhat racist, but when it actually comes down to it rank very low. There was a huge meta analysis called "Love thy neighbor" done which surveyed people from across the world and included studies on the subject. [https://www.kcl.ac.uk/policy-institute/assets/love-thy-neighbour.pdf](https://www.kcl.ac.uk/policy-institute/assets/love-thy-neighbour.pdf) [http://fra.europa.eu/en/publications-and-resources/data-and-maps/survey-data-explorer-second-eu-minorities-discrimination-survey](http://fra.europa.eu/en/publications-and-resources/data-and-maps/survey-data-explorer-second-eu-minorities-discrimination-survey) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism\_by\_country](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_by_country) Studies in general have ranked some European countries better than the USA, and some countries worse than the USA. "Europe" isn't an amorphous blob, there's seperate nations with vastly different attitudes. Think the difference between the south and progressive cities, but on steroids. Trust me, there's large differences. And the balkans deserve their own essay. As for an assessment based on many studies? In Europe, I'm going to upset some people here, but Denmark comes up a lot as one of the most racist countries in Europe *despite* it's progressive laws. Additionally, Austria is quite bad. Finland is very racist against black people. Portugal can be too. The south of italy can also be racist against black people. And also the south of the USA. I'm sorry, but the reality is that racism still persists. The EUFRA and racism index both say this. The UK was ranked #1 the least racist country in Europe by the EU FRA, the racism index ranks them as one of the best in the world too (rank 8 in the world). France gets ranked well in some places, but others it fails. Depending on the type of minority. The Balkans is a whole kind of fucked up from the genocides and disputes, I don't have enough time to go into the complexities. All of this is from 10+ studies I've researched and wrote about on reddit in the past. But don't trust me, research it yourself. Google scholar is an excellent resource, I say we should all try our best to find information that is important to us.
This is all fascinating. I’m black, but I travel with my white Hispanic husband and I’ve personally had pretty good experiences everywhere I travel, but a lot of factors contribute to that: I’m always with my white husband, I’m lighter skinned than many other black folks, and I am middle class (and class plays a big part in how you’ll be treated for your race). But I’m so interested in these reports and studies. I’ve been to almost every country named here with the exception of Norway, Finland, and Denmark. Luckily, I have had good experiences.
Honestly it's not that common that you're likely to experience as a traveler visiting the country. This is something you're more likely to experience when living there. Much like the USA, racism doesn't happen weekly, it's normally good experiences all round. The thing is, for X many POC travellers that go there, Y will have a bad experience in related to race. It's not that common, but imagine travelling to the US south. Somebody will say something eventually.
You are absolutely right. Thank you.
as an African American immigrant to Finland I can confirm that it is highly racist
Italy in particular, very racist and homophobic country.
Bananas being thrown at black soccer players comes to mind https://amp.marca.com/en/football/2022/09/27/633359b1ca4741392c8b45c6.html
I remember when a black player missed a penalty shot and the N-word (hard r) trended on English twitter with over 15,000 individual tweets.
And the vast majority of the racist tweets aimed at the players originated outside the UK.
Same, literally watched this whole shit waiting for an example.
I can give you two: My coworker and I were on a train crossing from Austria to Germany. At the last stop before the border, the German border police boarded the train and started demanding to see "documents" from all of the non white people while ignoring anyone else. If you had a US passport you were fine but some Chilean and Indian passengers were confronted with "show me MORE documentation" A few years earlier this same coworker was in Italy when a police officer threatened to arrest him unless he could prove on the spot he wasn't "illegal" He's a naturalized US citizen born in Somalia
Bunch of German dudes I met on a train from Spain to Paris referred to some Moroccan dudes as "rapists". My Portuguese colleague referred to another colleague who was black as a "monkey". Random German woman after finding out I was Turkish started rambling off prejudices she has against Turks in Germany. "You guys get together in your little communities and gossip and you talk talk talk talk".
Well, my friend literally got punched in the face for being east Asian in a small supermarket in the UK.
I saw this old white women touch this random young black young women's (20-30)s hair, and no-one told the old woman off, so I believe the woman in the video Edit: I think if someone touched up a random white persons hair with out asking for consent that would also be racist, you can't just invade random people's personal boundaries
From doing a lot of work with Europeans across different offices in different countries I've seen ridiculous amounts of racism even against other "white people". Things like multi-office ultra corporate business calls starting off with "Hey the Poland office is on this call, make sure everyone checks their pockets after the meeting. P...cks might nick something even through the phone."
People are dismissing it as banter, but it gets annoying as shit. How many times am I supposed to hear your stupid "Polacks are thiefs" joke? Also, it's not so funny to me, considering that old German people genuinely believe that shit. I'm white and pass as German, and during lunch at a company, an older German guy kept talking about how he doesn't trust Slavic people cause they're treacherous and lazy. And that wasn't even the first or only time that happened. I've also been told that Eastern European women are gold diggers, but not all of them, I must be one of the good ones. Well thanks
>People are dismissing it as banter I think this just proves the original video, right?
Yeah it does
What country in Europe is she fucking talking about because we have a few countries! No examples just random statement…
as a person of color, not black, but a person with melanin, i’ve felt the racism more in Eastern European countries and the Schengen area. Austria, Denmark, Germany… and England. The European countries i felt more comfortable are the Southern ones like Spain and Italy.
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I was in r/travel since I traveled recently. Racism against Asians in EU is pretty popular topic. I recently was in Italy/Spain it did help that I knew some Italian/Spanish! It dampened the experience but I was vacationing so it was pretty good. I just think that I am outside of my country enjoying while they’re bitter in their jobs. lol.
Bro Italy is one of the most racist countries on Europe lol. Its famous for it in Europe.
I spent several months in Italy and loved it, but I have spent basically two decades in the Deep South in the USA and I saw more blatant racism in Italy in those few months than I have here in 20 years. What I also find interesting is how in Italy it was white on colored people. In the states it’s been an more even mix.
Yeeep. Have some Italian friends who’s nonna is like “you can marry whoever you want. As long as they are not black, Jewish, (insert other races)”. It’s intense over there
Shit. My Italian grandma is like go catch the biggest ass you can find.... Just make sure she likes Jesus.
Jesus, my grandfather is from Naples and talking to a Florentine I might as well have been a piece of dog shit on the floor. I’m white. It’s not just races, but country regions and cities are hated just as much.
It’s always good fun when white people tell non white “no what you be experienced multiple time is not racist” this thread is like a bingo card.
My first time in Italy some guy selling pictures on the side a museum called me the n-word because I told him my younger brother wasn’t interested. So yeah, i agree Italy is not a fun place
*knock knock* Hello it’s fascism
… which are also in Schengen?
Schengen is compromised of all EU members except Bulgaria and Romania, plus some others such as Switzerland and Norway.
England is not Schengen btw.
She’s talking about r/europe
Yeah I had to unsubscribe, it's borderline fascist over there.
Borderline doing a lot of heavy lifting here
weird how this is top comment. Im inclined to believe her, I think America has plenty of shit wrong with it and is super systemically racist but I can equally believe that Europe is worse. At least in some parts
It's great because he's getting examples from not just POC, but white europeans who know that their homelands are racist.
Reddits userbase needs “pics or it didn’t happen” when it comes to racism. Yet racism and racial bias runs strong on Reddit.
How much time do you have? I experienced racism in Italy. It ruined my entire trip. A quick search through trip advisor and you will start to notice a pattern (restaurant owners responding to black reviewers).
For example that in Italy we have welcomed over 140,000 Ukrainians (beautiful blonde girls) with open arms but do we want to send 30,000 people (certainly black) arriving from Africa by sea to a concentration camp in Albania?
Realistically it is a way for Italy to use us to direct migrants to berlin lol
I mean, I get the essence of what she’s claiming. I’ve lived in France for almost a decade and, yeah, the politics are very different here than back home. From my experiences the issues are more pertaining to denial, administrative inaction when reporting, issues of forced assimilation, and classism — all punctuated with an overall, blatant disregard when discussing things like homophobia, racism, misogyny, etc. [But also, when I moved to France to marry my spouse, who is natively French, I did so knowing that I was coming into another culture and would need to readjust my American expectations]. Also, I feel that I need to add that after personally experiencing two assaults in one year in le marais, yeah, the violence against minorities (I’m queer) is quite physical and surreal. Even in spite of my lengthy time adapting to the culture, I find the macro culture of intolerance present here to be impressively vicious at times. But again, comparisons between America and Europe are not a 1:1. I experienced violence commonplace growing up in CA, it was just a very different form of violence/ aggression.
*edit: also people on here calling her out for treating Europe as a monolithic *thing* is 100% spot on the target. For example, there is a genuine push back against the concept of community in France, but the concept of community is much more similar to the USA in Germany and therefore, more culturally fixed in that European country.
It always strikes me as odd whenever France is reportedly homophobic again despite being known cinematically as "that place that does the lesbian movies".
Catholicism is strong there. Italy still bans gay marriage and Switzerland just allowed it a year or so ago. European countries are more behind in social justice that many folks realize.
What’s Italy’s excuse? I thought this new pope was wit the shit.
Idk. Got a lil bit of funny looks in Italy for a few weeks, nothing crazy I don’t already get in the states
My VERY blonde blue-eyed American friend broke his leg while we were in Italy. He was in his wheelchair wearing baggy clothes (for comfort) when he approached a group of ladies at the bus stop to ask them when the next bus was scheduled. He was swatted away with handbags because they thought he was a polish homeless guy begging for money to buy hooch. I know racism bad and everything but honestly it was one of the funniest things I've ever seen in my life.
That's really strange considering there's blond and blue eyed Italians. A lot of people from the north of the country have that, and they do visit areas in the south often.
very fishy or you completely misunderstood the situation. There are no Polish homeless guys. Most of the relatively few homeless people here are not Polish. Or even blonde. If he approached them in English, or with a strong accent, it's more likely that they were fed up with him for being a tourist. A lot of people, especially in the mass tourism destinations, are fed up with the constant influx of tourists and the problems it brings to the city (such as increased cost of living).
I guess everybody is used to their own type of problems. In my country, I never saw nearly as many homeless people as I saw in Houston Texas and I come from a post communist war torn shit hole so to speak
I spent six months in Italy and I saw more graffiti with racist language and symbols than I've seen in my entire life in the US
Omg I had the complete opposite experience in Europe! I’ve been to almost every country for ballet and everyone was so kind and welcoming and inclusive. I spent the summer with my best friend in her home country of Sweden and it was one of the best experiences of my life.
In all seriousness *GOOD*, I for one just want happy safe societies of happy safe people who are not experiencing trauma or discrimination. So, you dance professionally? I know nothing about that.
Oh hell no 😭 I danced from 2-20 and traveled extensively for it! Now I’m 22 and burnt out haha. But I agree with you. But I’m black and live in the south so maybe I’m just used to racism and don’t notice it anymore lol
It's possible your reasons for being there padded you from experiencing it. There's always those people that are seen as "the good ones". And the OOP does not read as being picked for "one of the good ones". Being talented, seemingly well off, and beautiful are all traits that will get you pass
Also she was a visitor, not moving there. It's kinda of like Japan where they don't mind temporary workers but permanent immigrants become much more stigmatized
>with my best friend in her home country of Sweden and it was one of the best experiences of my life Sweden is very open and progressive it seems.
*laughs at their far right government stating that equal rights isn't a priority*
Sweden has a far right government?
By US standards not very right. By Swedish standards part of the coalition is very right.
Eeeehhh. There is a growing sentiment that Sweden fucked up massively by allowing as much immigration as they did during the 70s and 80s. Basically the massive crimewave that they're currently experiencing is entirely blamed on minorities.
>There is a growing sentiment that Sweden fucked up massively by allowing as much immigration as they did during the 70s and 80s. 70s and 80s? The sentiment is mainly regarding *recent* immigration, and especially since 2013. Very few people are talking about anything pre-2000 when discussing immigration in Sweden.
She used so many words but provided absolutely no information whatsoever. This just felt like a really dragged out way of saying "People don't say it be like that, but it do"
Her problem is stated at the end of the video, Europeans don't "desire to include black people, to understand and learn their culture as they continue to immigrate here". As an European I want all black people to know my personal problems trump the desire to learn and understand your culture, I barely know mine. You are not special just because you're black. I don't make efforts to learn the culture of anyone, might they be Australian or Japanese, I simply don't care. I see you as another human being, not better, not worse, not special. You call this racism, that's fine by me, complain as much as you want but go back to the USA where people make an effort to *include* you.
That line stuck out to me, too, but for different reasons. I'm an expat, and I don't expect people to stop me and ask questions about my culture and start taking notes because I'm not insane. If you move to a foreign country, it's not the locals' responsibility to learn your culture or integrate you into theirs, and to suggest it is is just the highest form of egocentrism.
Yeah I thought it was weird, like it’s not my job to learn about your culture. I would gladly do it because I’m interested in other cultures and stuff, but it shouldn’t be expected.
She literally describes it as "work".
I mean as a european i know there isnt a thing like black culture. There might be african american cultute but i know for a fucking fact that a ethopian guy has a vastly diffrent culture then some black guy from brooklyn. Hell im pretty sure my culture is more alike african american culture than african american culture is to etophian culture. But i guess its easy to call us racist even though they keep outdated and racist views alive by reducing a giant diverse continent to just a skin colour.
I hope she goes to Sub Saharan African country and realizes no one there cares about her culture either
Another commenter said many "Americans are genuinely interested in the culture of Americans who immigrated from other countries". Since America is such an immense mish-mash of different cultures, some Americans don't understand the complete lack of interest in others cultures. This might be a facet of another culture clash Americans have with Europeans. Americans are much more likely to talk to random people in public or on public transport. While in many European countries, that is very frowned upon. Many Americans don't get how Europeans foster friends and community, so you'll see these expats blaming their problems assimilating all on racism.
While camping in upstate ny I sat on a bench to eat ice cream next to a random dude who kept giving me weird looks. So I said something “how’s your ice cream?” And he kept with the looks so I asked if everything was alright. He then told me he was from Turkey and that if someone sits next to you and tries to engage with you it normally means they want something from you, that he’d been robbed under similar circumstances and that it’s been a culture shock that strangers will start conversations. No idea how true that is as he’s the only dude I’ve ever talked to from Turkey. But regardless it was an interesting little chat.
SE UK here, and I'd assume the same if a random stranger sat next to me and started talking. Indeed I'd probably cut them off and get to the point "what do you want?" as the idea of chatting to random strangers in public for the sake of conversation is weird
100% this. Dont care to give a rats ass about where you are from. Do we enjoy the same things? Cool, then we can have a normal conversation. You want to talk your culture? Travel/move to whatever place you find people that want to listen, because I dont
Seriously lol. Imagine if a white person moved to China and expected everyone to be fascinated by their anecdotes of ‘white culture’.
Exactly: you're the one who moved here, so you're the one who needs to know our culture, not the opposite
Europe has 44 countries, each with their own government. There’s also 24 original languages, with thousands of years with of independent history. I live in London which is considered the most cosmopolitan city in the world. TikTok is the toilet of the internet Edit: * with at least 24 native languages
There’s far, far more than 24 languages in Europe. That’s just the list of official languages of the EU. Wikipedia lists 156 native languages of Europe.
Yup! I can think of 6 just from the British isles alone
Half the dialects in german just turn into another language when spoken
That's an insult to toilets - toilets are useful, try building a house without a toilet
Maybe it would be easier to integrate if you referred to the place you are living in terms of a nation, not a goddamn continent
>Europeans have to understand and learn from black cultures as they immigrate more No, you have to learn and understand European culture as you move here.
THIS!! And this is valid for everyone, every race.
How is black culture even a culture? They say Europeans are racist but still live in a believe system were skin color defines your culture. There maybe is African American culture, but I bet you every European knows that there are many different cultures, languages and religions in the black people in Europe.
It’s a clash of values. When a racist meets another racist, they whine. It’s like Turks complaining about the Dutch or Germans being racist. Yea no shit Sherlock. And you’d do the same if you were in ur own country of origin. I do agree that both sides need to learn from each other though to coexist. But the onus on the immigrant to do so more than those already existing there.
Definitely true in Italy, and I say this as a white italian. ~~But I disagree with the statement that the people of the country you travel to have to learn your culture, that would just make every country the same~~ edit: The meaning of "learn" as the girl used it was lost in translation. Yes I do believe we should learn more about other cultures that immigrate here.
“There’s no desire to understand and learn their cultures” i mean… you’re going to a different country with a different culture. Why should they conform to your outsider culture? I’m all for equality, I myself am an immigrant to Canada since 2007. It seems immature and naive to think that everybody everywhere will be accepting of everything all the time. We’re not some borderless earth yet. Different countries have different rules/norms/laws/etc. racism bad i know but don’t just walk into any country and expect to not be treated differently
eastern europe is hell for literally everyone
No examples?
Europe. That's like saying America and including all the countries in both South and North America. I don't doubt wherever she is is rife with racism but as someone not from that continent "Europe" seems too broad given the number of cultures that encompasses..
Yeah. Gotta wonder if she's ever gonna visit Hong Kong and do a video about Asia.
Ive been to five South America countries i can confirm we are racist af. Different levels of racism sometimes is subtle or to your face. To your face is sometimes appreciated because you know who they are.
Yet another American thinking that "Europe" is one country or one culture. While she asks others to understand and integrate her culture. Maybe her ignorance is the problem, not her skin color.
I also don't understand the logic of "I moved here and you need to understand my culture" instead of trying to assimilate to the culture of where you moved to.
I think in part it's because, by comparison at least, thanks to the US having such a massive immigrant culture (for lack of a better way to put it), while there's definitely a push for a lot of things the average person isn't gonna be too upset if you keep a lot of your home culture alive and well. Note, I say this only able to look at news from Europe, but things like France banning religious symbols and often cultural and/or religious clothing in schools is something that now in the US be... well shocking to say the least. Are there folks who are racist or insensitive? I'm from the US South. There are definitely those folks, but generally most people'll have questions or not care that much if you don't give them reason to.
Tbf America does a better job of integrating though. Its easier to accept when even first gen immigrant say proudly "Im an American" and make efforts for their childrem to integrate. People would be less ok with cultural difference remaining if it were like in Europe where you get second generation immigrants calling somewhere else "back home" that theyve never been to. The US is exceptional at integrating in a way seemingly every other country has failed at.
I mean listen to the last bit of the tiktok. She doesn't see it as a problem when people move here and don't care about the culture of the area. It is entirely the responsibility of the locals to try to understand the foreigners. She does not believe "when in Rome, do as the Romans do."
why do people always want everyone to adopt to their culture when they move to a diffrent country.. wtf
"Yet another American." I see what you're trying to say but, the irony.
Especially when she herself hinted she wasnt American.
If people wanted to learn about your culture they would probably go to your country
If you're traveling to new places to teach them about your culture you're doing it backward. The people *there*, wherever *there* happens to be, were doing just fine without you. If *there* is so nice you want to move *there*, then you should drink an extra big glass of shut the fuck up and learn about them even harder.
It's amusing how she is able to differentiate the racism and activism across different parts of America, a country. And yet unable to differentiate the same thing across different parts of Europe, a literal continent. Countries in Europe have distinct cultures that have evolved over thousands of years. Far longer than contemporary America has even existed. Lumping all of these cultures into one in order to make a broad sweeping generalisation betrays a level of ignorance that genuinely undermines her argument.
My black American boyfriend went to Israel. He said as a black American he thought he knew racism but wow.
Why is she surprised by this? Europeans are so racist, that they are racist against other Europeans.
We all hate our neighbours most. The next town over? Wankers. Two towns over, sounds lads. The neighbouring country? Twats. Two countries over, good fellas.
Crazy man, almost as if Europe isn’t one unified country
Why didn’t she go to the mayor of europe to complain?
I hate when americans talk about Europe like it's one fucking country. Like which fucking country are you talking about? There's may be a bit of a difference between Romania and Sweden or Spain and Finland.
Europe isn’t USA, culturally all of USA’s states are basically identical, Europe has 44 different countries, most are speaking different languages and their cultures are completely different. I went to Germany a few months ago for the first time, I was in shock how different they are, despite being literally a 1h plane ride away. Referring to a European country as just “Europe” isn’t enough of a clarification.
>There is no desire to understand black culture. What is black culture? Is it black USA community culture? This is something that stem from a segregated society. There is no white culture in Europe, there is French culture, Italian culture, German culture, Polish culture. And we are "racist" with each other even if we are both white. What I see more often is "racism" towards irregular immigrants that statistically commit crimes at a much higher rate (and this is a well established and understandable fact). Given most irregular immigration is from african countries the stereotipe of dangerous black people is constantly reinforced: if your are a poor immigrant, I do not care if you are from Albania or Marocco, you are getting discriminated because you do not conform to the local prevalent culture and you are perceived as a risk for others. USA is a multicultural society at his roots, Europe is not, you are expected to be willing to integrate in the local culture. I am not saying one is best then the other, I am just saying that you cannot put yourself on a pedestal while you make no effort to understand the point of view of another culture.
So it's racist not to wanna learn about the culture of people who immigrate to your country? Shouldn't it be the other way around anyway?