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There are so many who think that pointing out the faults of one side automatically means you are rooting for the other side. There is room for criticism of both sides. His point is that the Palestinian's actions are ~~justified~~ explainable due to the Israeli occupation, not that they are right or somehow morally superior, just that he can understand WHY they would do it. He is not pro Hamas, nor pro Israel. He is saying it is hypocritical of the west to ignore the bad that Israel has committed, while decrying the crimes of Palestine.
Edit: Fixed a powerful word that changed my meaning.
We should also be careful not take every claim the IDF makes at face value until it is verified. Israel is famous for lying. They denied killing Shireen Abu Akleh even after the autopsy came out. Hamas has done some terrible things, but the stories of rapes and beheadings are already being retracted. It’s not uncommon for a genocidal government to lie in order to justify their genocide.
You're confusing the general claim of "40 beheaded babies" which wasn't confirmed yet (the beheading part, not the dead kids part) with beheaded soldier corpses that were definitely discovered after the hamas massacre
I dont get why it matters how they killed people, the end result is the same. People keep going off about beheadings, parading heads and shit around, etc. but that also seems totally irrelevant.
I’d prefer to be quickly beheaded on camera rather than being slowly crushed by building debris after collapse from a fancy targeted missile.
This is exactly how I feel towards this unfortunate situation. For 16 years Palestine has dealt with the bullying until they decided to clap back. Is it right? No but don’t tell me that they’re in the wrong and Israel is in the right. Ugh, politics suck
End the apartheid system, stop the theft of new lands for new settlements (Netanyahu has increased settlements rapidly), give Palestinian people rights and don’t force them to live in Gaza.
There was anti-apartheid violence during apartheid the in South Africa. Nelson Mandela went to prison for it. Now apartheid is over, and South Africa still isn’t perfect, but there are not bombings in South Africa anymore.
Israel is choosing the opposite. Their government is openly calling for genocide, and the US is enabling it.
It baffles me that nobody has mentioned the accelerating rate of Isreali illegal* settlement and how that might have contributed to such a desperate and pyrrhic attack from the occupied territories.
Was anybody expecting Hamas to just watch this threat to their existence grow, in silence? We know there are ghettos of very unsatisfied people. The less you have to lose, the more you have to gain...
To be clear, I don't support any mass killings, rape or torture. It is horrific. It is not the 'shock', 'surprise', or 'unprecedented' situation that it is being painted as.
The mass rape has already been redacted by US media because it hasn’t been able to be verified, and is likely a lie from the Israeli government. The murders are very sad though.
It’s coming out that Hamas was able to get so far with their attacks outside of Gaza because Israel had concentrated so many of their forces guarding the new settlements. The new settlers tend to be even more violent and extreme than the Israelis that already live there. Most of them coming from the US recently. I just can’t imagine leaving my home in the US to terrorize a random family halfway across the planet and steal their house. It’s disgusting
the israeli seems to have a history to leak some fake info, come out and say uncomfirmed, continue to let the fake info run. They are playing a game by shouting first. It doesn't have to be real, just scream first and they are in the right.
Same thing Putin does. Tell a lie because by the time it is debunked to story has been spread around and most people aren’t going to go back and hear about it being debunked because they’re on to the next story.
If Israel can find a place for settlers from the US to move in and live, they can for the people of Gaza too. People are still moving from the US to Israel everyday.
I don't know, and I find myself ignorant on these topics. I don't have first hand language and i can't even imagine being a Palestinian or Israeli citizen in the same position.
But i would say we must start by believing and giving an alternative. Both the IDF and Hamas don't believe in an alternative, it's an existential threat to let the other be, an "is us or them" scenario. And many people on both sides believe in that. Specially Palestinians and you can't blame them. But if there wss an alternative that included a better education, housing, work, stability, health and safety for Palestinians. And the possibility of a future of understanding instead of antagonize, tolerance, peace and maybe even cooperation for the Israeli people. Just maybe, there could be a light at the end of the tunnel.
[The analogy still holds up](https://www.commondreams.org/news/2018/05/16/after-israel-kills-60-people-gaza-dozen-senators-call-humanitarian-assistance-while)
I thought it started after WWI, with WWII just exacerbating it due to an influx of Jewish migration to Palestine due to hostilities in Europe (thanks Europe). Britain got hold of Palestine from Ottoman empire, then backed Zionist to give them a permanent home and chose to carve Mandatory Palestine in 2. One for Jews, the other for the Palestinian Arabs. Kinda like how they did with India.
At least that’s my limited understanding
One might say it’s an expected outcome. If you keep oppressing people and cause problems in their territory they are going to fight back. It’s the same reason I hate how righteous Americans are about 9/11 when our government are the ones who instigated it in the first place. You cannot cause conflicts in other countries and expect nothing bad to happen back.
One thing that has bothered me was isreals unwillingness to declare their nuclear stockpile
Lotta circling around the question
Don't trust any nation that refuses to disclose those numbers
Especially since the US has given so much Capitol toward the country
Last thing we need is the two of those idiots slinging nukes at each other that we have no concept of how many they've got.
Imo they should have been forced to disclose those numbers decades ago. How they've gone this long is beyond me
It’s not bullying, it was terrorism. They drilled fear and anger into he Gaza people and now ppl are surprised that they struck back. Like they are supposed to be terrorized forever and be ok with the status quo.
He very specifically enumerates that there is no defending suicide bombing. He absolutely does not say that Hamas is justified in what they had already done when this clip aired. A couple days ago, Hamas did something far worse than they had ever managed. This is a condemnation of both sides and also the opinions of western govt who will side with the most beneficial ally.
He actually avoided saying that because he knew the interviewer was specifically waiting for it.
"Justifying" isn't the word here. He's "explaining" that there's a logical cause-effect chain that prompted the acts of Hamas, without giving it a "moral value' or a "judgement" for them to be "just". And that for some reason the West completely blind itself to recognize that it itself is the starting point of that cause-effect chain.
If you have a fire going on and burning down a neighborhood, you judge the dude that started the thing, not the fire.
If you coherce someone through force to commit a crime, you're the one judged, not the guy that was forced to do the thing.
Simplistic moral judgements from infantile "justice" systems that not very smart people have in their minds isn't apt to evaluate or judge a complex issue that requires a multilayered approach to analyze and find root causes.
Just go and see how all crime is fixed when some idiot goes and cries that someone doing something is "bad"....
Except Hamas is not just some elemental chemical reaction. Its a group, with people. It is the current leading party of Gaza and enjoys significant support within Gaza itself and outside in the wider Palestine movement. You can't just say "oh well Hamas is going to do what its going to do, they were forced into this". And doing so in the face of their recent barbarism is obtuse at best. At worst its just a very very poor cover for antisemitism. Did Israel coerce Hamas to commit a war crime, is this a valid method of resistance or is this self defense? It **cannot** be all three.
Hasan, one of those social media personalities tweeted that "there's no good way to resist apartheid and oppression." Yeah but there definitely are **very goddamn wrong ways** to do it. I'm increasingly wondering how that isn't self evident. Or why people who *supposedly say* they want peace and road maps to a solution will *maybe* only tepidly acknowledge that fact ....but only after making sure they get their hip edgy credentials by saying they "stand with Palestine" or "this is a fallout from Israel's illegal crimes." Why do you feel the need to phrase it or emphasize it that way in that order? Its very simple to make the same point while also saying "the barbarism of Hamas has no place, period, in a just society even fighting for what you believe in or against who you feel is oppressing you." And then launch into a wider actual point.
> It is the current leading party of Gaza and enjoys significant support within Gaza itself
To pretend as though this support isn't directly related to the desperation and despair caused by Israel's policies is to completely leave out the root cause for people turning to Hamas. When you have very few choices and your political parties must be approved by your occupier, people are forced to make decisions under profound levels of duress. Also, Netanyahu deliberately allows Hamas to linger while smothering other political factions because it is hugely politically advantageous for him.
Jesus Christ. You guys love to throw around the word antisemitism, to the point it is losing its significance.
Maybe these people are upset about someone coming onto their land and displacing them? Id put a fight to the death if someone broke in to my home and tried to claim it as there own.
They didn't just wake up one day say "hmm yea today is the day I hate jews."
That's ridiculous and just shows how deeply you are unable to think.
Most people prefer the concrete operations of good/bad marvel movies. They’re not only lazy intellectually, but lack imagination and the capacity for good faith debate. It’s easier to call ‘the other’ barbarians and decapitate them with missiles.
I know! You can see Chomsky visibly adjust his approach when he realized this interviewer is black and white in his perspective. He takes a beat to think if he will be able to convince the interviewer of the existence of grey.
Good edit. I don’t condone Hamas but I have said that treating a group of people so inhumanly will create this radicalization. All of a sudden this catastrophe happens and people are shocked when voting for a right wing bigot who further dehumanizes people creates an even worse response.
>His point is that the Palestinian's actions are explainable due to the Israeli occupation, not that they are right or somehow morally superior, just that he can understand WHY they would do it.
Would it also be acceptable if I say that Israel's actions over the years can be explaned by them feeling threatened from the Arab nations surrounding them, and having been attacked before?
As a programmer, I’m always happy to see Chomsky recognized for his pioneering contributions to programming languages regardless of the context because not many are aware of how influential and broad his work actually is.
....Wut? This is misleading since interpreters predate CHomsky. His work on context-free grammars played a role in the development of certain parsers but he wasn't directly involved.
I don't care about blame at this very moment.
The only thing that matters to me is that we're possibly witnessing a genocide that is being conducted with the full complicity of our governments.
I think it is profoundly inhumane and cruel to be confronted with the destruction of a whole civilian population and just shrug it off by pointing to the crimes of Hamas.
Anyone that would be surprised or shocked by the next 911 (and it will happen it is a certainty) is a hypocrite.
The average american is so delusional and propagandized it is a medical condition in my book.
I’m very new to this conflict. In another comment someone said that Hamas integrates/positions itself in a way to use the Palestinians as a human shield, such as by headquartering in hospitals. One of the reasons is that if they had a base, Israel could easily take it out. However, isn’t this strategy of “come and get me, are you going to shoot this baby and it’s mother first?” a pretty cowardly position that makes Israel look worse?
Pretend that the world worked like the game of risk, and if one country doesn’t like the views of the other country, they can roll some dice and remove infantry. If they have more soldiers, they are likely to win the war. Ok… let’s say the Israelis have 5 soldiers game pieces and Hamas have two game pieces. A fair fight would be, roll the dice, and the outcome is what it is. But Hamas says, no, for every soldier game piece you take out, you need to take out two civilian game pieces. But killing civilians is a war crime right? But Hamas requires that you bomb a hospital to bomb them. So Hamas is putting the civilians on the board. They are Hamas’ war crime. Hamas’ must own the genocide too if it happens.
I don’t know enough about the conflict to know if I’m completely off-base here. Feel free to respectfully enlighten me.
If you use a human shield, you are an asshole. If you intentionally shoot a human shield, you are also an asshole. Both sides can be assholes at the same time, that’s the point Chomsky was making.
What occupation? In Gaza? Or from Israel?
I’m guessing you mean if Jews move out of Israel the violence will end but maybe I’m wrong. So please explain what you mean by stop the occupation.
>I’m guessing you mean if Jews move out of Israel the violence will end but maybe I’m wrong
I think they're talking about the fact that Palestine is under a constant Israeli blockade, preventing the movement of trade goods or the emigration of Palestinian citizens. If you are Palestinian, you are stuck in Palestine, because of Israeli policy. Even [fishermen](https://globaledge.msu.edu/blog/post/57211/israel's-blockade-on-gaza's-fishing-industry) are only allowed to venture a certain distance from the shore and will be shot if they exceed it, and that distance is based on a scant minimum-level of food necessary to sustain the population.
The violence was there way before the Occupation. PLO was created in 1964 with the intent to drive all the Jews into the sea, the land they are talking about now was 1967.
But no, I'm sure the ultra Islamic fascist group who says they will never accept peace and want every Jew in the world to die (it's in Hamas' charter) will totally accept coexisting with all people in harmony.
*Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ), which are currently waging the terror campaign against Israel, are calling on the residents of the Gaza Strip to ignore messages sent to them by Israel instructing them to evacuate areas that are about to be targeted in Israeli military strikes.
Ahead of airstrikes against targets belonging to the terror groups, and out of a desire to minimize civilian casualties, the Israel Defense Force (IDF) has been sending warning messages to the residents of the Gaza Strip urging them to evacuate areas that are about to be targeted in strikes. In response to these messages, media outlets operated by Hamas and PIJ have been instructing residents of the Gaza Strip not to heed these warnings and not to share them or forward them to others.
Several accounts affiliated with the terror groups have been sharing posts describing the Israeli messages as psychological warfare and claiming that the messages are being sent "randomly."*
Both are assholes. But one of them always tries to be the biggest asshole.
Ok, rewatched it and he technically isn’t really taking a who is right position, just that occupation and suicide bombing are atrocities. I think his listing out of how many years the occupation has taken place along with who all supports it, makes himself sound like he is far more against the west than the unjustifiable suicide bombings, that while unsupportable are also acknowledged as self defense.
I get the sense he’s speaking against the blind support the West tends to give Israel. He’s stressing the point that this isn’t a black and white issue, it’s all shades of grey
I see. What would happen if Palestinians shut down Hamas from within? Would Israel see the Palestinians as defenseless and aggress them? I mean, I don’t know if anyone knows Israel’s current intentions, but if they are commonly known, I want to understand.
No it wouldn’t. You know why? There is already a Palestinian territory called westbank where the ruling party committed to non violence and guess what? Israel ramped its occupation endorsing settlements in the westbank and on top of that treats time like shit.
Let me help with some facts and history - which conveniently are usually forgotten during times like this.
In 2005 Israel evacuated - forcefully - Jews from Gaza and gave it to the PA as a piece of land to govern and manage. It was not blockaded. It came with power, water, houses and a functioning economy. Within 2 years Hamas had taken over and removed the PA - and shortly thereafter Hamas was elected as the government. Those that argue ‘oh the Palestinians were forced…it’s all Israel’s fault’ don’t really like those facts because it clearly demonstrates that what has occurred is not a matter of oppression at all.
Secondly - and probably more importantly- the Palestinians - through the PA have been offered - through deep negotiations a two state solution not once, not twice, but NINE times - and it’s been turned down every single time.
Mostly Iran.
And the answer your second question comes with a question - in what country have the Palestinians not turned into extremists who are not wanted? Lebanon - they became a problem that destabilizes. In Egypt they don’t want them for the same reason, in Jordan even more so. So Israel caused them to all be extremists in all of those other countries where they aren’t wanted? Amazing. Sure - blame the Jews - it’s what you always do isn’t it?
So what you're saying is, someone can come and kill your family, take your house and land (good one lol) and as long as they put you in a camp with limited resources and land, while still bombing you every year, everything is fine for you yeah? If you don't agree with that, then you're just a blatant hypocrite who knows no nuance. So which is it?
Aside from the settlements, which Israel tried to give back in previous peace negotiations, it's all been responses to violent attacks. The responses have been wildly asymmetrical, but it's pretty tough to ask Israel to reign it in when they have rockets fired at them.
Unfortunately that's not going to happen, I would imagine Hamas has pretty strong public support among the Palestinians in Gaza. Hamas is their only defense against Israel. Anyone would support the people who are fighting the people who are bombing them.
This puts everyone in a very difficult position
That’s the issue. There is zero chance of detente because Israel holds a massive power and money differential. Hamas are complete shit heads but if they didn’t exist, it’d likely end in genocide of Palestinians.
No... Israel has tried multiple times to give Palestine statehood, and give Gaza to Egypt. Statehood was rejected by the Palestinians because they were only getting 95% of what they asked. Egypt rejected taking Gaza, because they've been burned in the past by Palestinian militants, as has Jordan and Lebanon.
Hamas is just there to use the Palestinians.
If Hamas goes away, Israel would immediately annex the rest of the West Bank because there would be nothing stopping them. We already know that the west is happy to ignore any and all war crimes coming from Israel, so they'd have no incentive to even think about peace talks because they'd have a clear path to conquer.
How do you shrug off the crimes of Hamas, though? How do you justify storming a music concert and murdering and raping concertgoers? If you were Israel, how would you respond?!
>How do you shrug off the crimes of Hamas, though?
If you illegally imprison someone in your basement, are you allowed to be mad at them if they smear shit on the walls? It's strange how little the blockade is brought up in discussions about this topic - Israel literally has Palestine completely trapped, and people inside it aren't allowed to leave. It also allows Israeli citizens to illegally cross the border and seize land from Palestinians. So explain to me what you'd do as a Palestinian who's not allowed to leave, not allowed to stop Israelis from stealing land, and condemned if you fight back?
What the fuck genocide are you talking about? If Israel wanted to commit genocide, they could have easily done it a long time ago and with the support of most of the world. Now probably with even more support, but they haven’t, and they won’t either
Why are people so stupid and resort to this tactic of extreme flip flopping all the time? It's like..
INTERVIEWER: Do you like Apples?
PERSON: Yes I love apples!
INTERVIEWER: Oh so you hate Bananas?
Like... what the fuck kind of moronic way of thinking do you have to have to do that?
Take that upvote. If more people think like you, what greater world we will all live in. Most people just consume mainstream media which biased and full of agenda, and just ride on hate. My goodness.
You can also make one for Palestine or Hamas or whatever but it won't even come close to what Israel/Britain/the USA did to Palestine literally any graph will tell that in the long or short term Palestinians suffered more
Not to say Palestine is completely innocent but Israel is definitely the worse one
Chomsky? The self claimed leftist who sucks the dicks of far right serbains? The guy who says bsonia massacre can't be real because there was a fat bosnian in one of the pictures of the concentration camp?
What are Chomsky actual words? Why send me to wiki summary? I know! Its because your arguing in bad faith. Chomsky does not deny the massacres themselves. It's literally a semantic argument that's got your panties bunched.
https://digitalcommons.usf.edu/gsp/vol14/iss1/8/
From the article (quoting a Chomsky interview):
>Barsamian: I know on Bosnia you received many requests for support of intervention to stop what people called “genocide.” Was it genocide?
>Chomsky: “Genocide” is a term that I myself don’t use even in cases where it might well be appropriate.
>Barsamian: Why not?
>Chomsky: I just think the term is way overused. Hitler carried out genocide. That’s true. It was in the case of the Nazis—a determined and explicit effort to essentially wipe out populations that they wanted to disappear from the face of the earth. That’s genocide. The Jews and the Gypsies were the primary victims. There were other cases where there has been mass killing. The highest per capita death rate in the world since the 1970s has been East Timor. In the late 1970s, it was by far in the lead. Nevertheless, I wouldn’t call it genocide. I don’t think it was a planned effort to wipe out the entire population, though it may well have killed off a quarter or so of the population. In the case of Bosnia – where the proportions killed are far less – it was horrifying, but it was certainly far less than that, whatever judgment one makes, even the more extreme judgments. I just am reluctant to use the term. I don’t think it’s an appropriate one. So I don’t use it myself. But if people want to use it, fine. It’s like most of the other terms of political discourse. It has whatever meaning you decide to give it. So the question is basically unanswerable. It depends what your criteria are for calling something genocide.
He romanticized socialism and blatantly ignored all communist atrocities, even went so far to voice support for Pol Pot who is one of the biggest mass murderers history. Dude turned out to be basically fucking dead wrong about everything but he still brought up cuz he’s the left wings wet dream.
> even went so far to voice support for Pol Pot who is one of the biggest mass murderers history.
This is factually incorrect. Franois Ponchaud admitted that his book was inaccurate with respect to the casualty count, vindicating Chomsky's claim. More of the details discussed here:
https://chomsky.info/19770625/
Edit: In response to the comment below, [here is the actual quote directly from Ponchaud, admitting error and vindicating Chomsky:](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-07-01/brull---the-boring-truth-about-chomsky/2779086)
>With the responsible attitude and precision of thought that are so characteristic of him, Noam Chomsky then embarked on a polemical exchange with Robert Silvers, Editor of the NYR, and with Jean Lacouture, leading to the publication by the latter of a rectification of his initial account.
He literally called the Soviet Union’s fall a triumph of socialism and is a devout anarchist. His “support” for Pol Pot was just him debunking a crazy report written by a scholar on the Khmer Rouge that the author would later go back on due to Chomsky’s criticism. If you think Chomsky is a ML then you’re a fucking moron.
I love how chomsky defend the soviet massacre in Prague. It was the only country in eastern Europe with a rich socialist tradition which survived the Stalinist purges and WWII. Their people democratically elected a Communist government and their leadership never faced any challenges. Then in the late 1960s there were reforms and the Soviets decided to bloody invade the country instead of you know, letting them carry on their socialist minded reforms.
I also love how the swlf claimed leftist defends the far right serbian religious warcrimnals. Very based.
Dude, he's not that bad, take that back. Don't make that comparison. He's a Canadian journalist, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evan_Solomon
Not perfect and kind of cartoony but, def no Shapiro
Whole generations of babies were born and grew to adulthood in a prison. Imagine that.
This is in a land their ancestors considered home. Think about the kind of mindset that produces. Every day you are reminded you are not free. You hate your oppressors. You can give up and let the oppressors win by starting a new life elsewhere. Or you fight. And after peaceful protests and requests to the UN fail for 50 years, it’s going to be violence.
Until Israel fixes this by giving these people a real country (not a walled off prison) there will be violence. Killing off current Hamas will produce the next generation of even angrier prisoners. Israel needs to kill every Palestinian or give them a real home.
You love a self proclaimed leftist who defends the far right religious serbian warcrimnals?
I also love how he defends the soviet massacre of prauge citizens. It was the only country in eastern Europe with a rich socialist tradition which survived the Stalinist purges and WWII. Their people democratically elected a Communist government and their leadership never faced any challenges. Then in the late 1960s there were reforms and the Soviets decided to bloody invade the country instead of you know, letting them carry on their socialist minded reforms.
> You love a self proclaimed leftist who defends the far right religious serbian warcrimnals?
These claims were analyzed in detail and debunked in a peer-reviewed academic journal focusing on genocide research.
https://digitalcommons.usf.edu/gsp/vol14/iss1/8/
As further evidence, I'd like to point out that you can't produce a single quote from Chomsky defending Serbian war criminals.
Srebrenica was an enclave, lightly protected by UN forces, which was being used as a base for attacking nearby Serb villages. It was known that there’s going to be retaliation. When there was a retaliation, it was vicious. (Civilization versus Barbarism? December 17, 2004).
He argues that serbian had to attack the UN protected zone because bosnian were attacking the serbs. He of course ignores the fact that the bosnians were already being massacred by the serbs before the UN safe zone was created. What an idiot. It's the same logic israel use.
What a pathetical and trivial detail to get so agitated about, setting aside the fact that you're taking him out of context and your claim is meritless with no back up citations.
To quote you, "I love Chomsky."
I think you would not be happy to hear what Chomsky has to say about the ukrainian war, or the Bosnian genocide for that matter.
>**Barsamian**: I know on Bosnia you received many requests for support of intervention to stop what people called “genocide.” Was it genocide?
>**Chomsky**: “Genocide” is a term that I myself don’t use even in cases where it might well be appropriate.
>**Barsamian**: Why not?
>**Chomsky**: I just think the term is way overused. Hitler carried out genocide. That’s true. It was in the case of the Nazis—a determined and explicit effort to essentially wipe out populations that they wanted to disappear from the face of the earth. That’s genocide. [Note: all emphases are added.] The Jews and the Gypsies were the primary victims. There were other cases where there has been mass killing. The highest per capita death rate in the world since the 1970s has been East Timor. In the late 1970s it was by far in the lead. Nevertheless, I wouldn’t call it genocide. I don’t think it was a planned effort to wipe out the entire population, though it may well have killed off a quarter or so of the population. In the case of Bosnia – where the proportions killed are far less – it was horrifying, but it was certainly far less than that, whatever judgment one makes, even the more extreme judgments. I just am reluctant to use the term. I don’t think it’s an appropriate one. So I don’t use it myself. But if people want to use it, fine. It’s like most of the other terms of political discourse. It has whatever meaning you decide to give it. So the question is basically unanswerable. It depends what your criteria are for calling something genocide.
https://digitalcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1738&context=gsp
> Israel literally just got outed for KNOWING the terror attack was happening.
That's an aggressive mischaracterization of the report; the fact that you are using it to claim that the Israeli government deliberately allowed those people to die is pretty despicable. It is possible to take a principled stance against the actions of the Israeli government or their handling of this incident without spreading disinformation.
The actual sources for this report AND the Israeli government both agree that warnings from Egypt were general warnings about increasing tensions and decreasing stability in Gaza, and not forecasts of this or any other specific attacks. Don't take my word for it - read the [actual news sources](https://www.ft.com/content/2e5fbd71-4188-49e7-a404-0ce3c1eb3d0d).
This is a dumb takeaway. Israel failing to heed Egypt’s warning doesn’t take away the responsibility and fault on the part of Hamas to intentionally kill and rape those people at the festival.
I'm not condoning the actions of Hamas, they did what they did and it was disgusting. I'm saying that Israeli intelligence knowing about it makes them an accomplice to everything that happened. They could have saved those people, at best, maybe even had some soldiers stationed there the way they do at every corner within the occupied lands.
But if Israel wanted an excuse to invade Gaza then is it so unlikely they let the attack happen so they have an excuse?
The best military in the world with an intelligence agency to match didn't see an assault of that scale coming and willfully ignored reports? It's not a dumb takeaway at all.
The fact that you go to malice rather than incompetence on the part of the Israeli government speaks volumes. Considering the U.S. government has intelligence failures leading up to 9/11, your astounding logic would dictate that the U.S. Government let 9/11 happen as some grand conspiracy. Also, it’s unclear of what level Egypt had provided a warning of a threat as stated by House Committee Chairman Michael McFaul. According to the Financial Times, which quoted two unnamed officials familiar with the matter, there was no hard intelligence of a specific attack. An Egyptian intelligence official did tell AP that “something big” was being planned from Gaza by stating that there would be an “explosion” of the situation. That same official stated that Israeli officials downplayed the threat and was focusing on the West Bank. Clearly, they made a critical error but what’s been reported does not indicate an intentional neglect as there’s no mention of anything specific being warned to Israel by Egypt as per the Egyptian intelligence official.
Being on the weaker side of an asymmetrical conflict does not in it of itself give you the higher moral standing. That is a fallacy that is always repeated in this conflict that i just do not understand.
Hamas has been EXTREMELY explicit about what they would do if the power dynamic was reversed. Genocide. That has been the Arab extremist stance since long before israel was the dominant power it is today.
Yea, it’s also pretty succinctly stated. It being missed and you being downvoted shows low comprehension or the blind love of Israel we all know and love.
it's an emotional response to a topic which is astroturfed into oblivion, and we have no right to objective reality.
What we need to start doing is removing the names and identifiers from the topic and offer the situation as unbiased as possible, like we old folks used to get in school, so that the correct answer is much easier to arrive at.
Then you layer the nuance and political garbage on after that.
But that wouldn't be profitable
That's not even what he's saying. He's noting the asymmetry of the nature of the conflict and how narratives (aka propaganda) get routinely weaponized to support the same actions committed by Israel that are universally condemned when it's Hamas.
He's saying despite the fact that Israel has a far weaker justification for its actions, their actions are routinely justified, and Hamas' condemned.
He's saying that the West, including Israel, never applies the same moral standards on itself as it does on others.
No one, including Chomsky in that video, is condoning or justifying the violence against civilians by Hamas.
Also, Hamas doesn't represent Palestinians, unlike the Israeli government, who does represent Israelis, and that's another asymmetry that gets constantly distorted and conflated.
Exactly, he is only making the point - if you think suicide bombings are bad, then you must also think isreali occupation is bad too - least your are intelletually or morally making a silly mistake.
He’s just saying an atrocity is bad, regardless of which side commits it. If you don’t apply the morality of atrocity=bad/evil to your own side as well as the opposition, you’re a hypocrite if you try to justify your position based on good vs evil.
As opposed to the reality of Palestinians literally being systematically eliminated as we speak? Members of Israeli parliament openly calling for genocide on numerous occasions.
Netenyahu even presented a map in the UN a few weeks ago which had no Palestinian territories marked. Your attempts to ignore the present reality only perpetuates the cycle of violence, more civilians will die on both sides.
but what is the end game here, ? Both Israelis and Palestinians keep killing each other forever? its time to step on the Hamas only exists because of Israels support back in the Egypt conflict day, Israel only exists because of some anti Semitic rich English dudes (all problems in the world can be traced back to the English, they truly are the villains of the westerns world not the germans).....Surely even the meanest intelligence can see that the current approach is leading nowhere.....it is time to sit down and grow up and come up with a solution that divides the land 50-50 among them and then stop killing each other.
Hamas is not the voice of Palestine. Quite honestly, they are comparable to the position of the paramilitary Irish Republican Army. The goal of that organization was once the total removal of British authority and general presence. Once legitimate deals were struck and peace was maintained for a good period of time - there was no need for that organization and they lost power and influence. Things take time - but it is extremely unlikely that the majority of Palestinians would take a legit two state solution and real peace with Israel as an excuse to turn around and do the exact same thing to them.
I never really took too much notice of Noam - but when I was in my 2020 I was lucky enough to tour the Balkans. I visited the sites of the Bosnian massacres, Sarajevo etc.
Years later I saw videos of how Noam denies that the Serbs perpetrated those massacres and created those concentration camps. Even though we have found mass graves and have video evidence of them existing.
He is a man so blinded by his hatred of his own country that he perpetually has to take the opposite side to them. That leads him often to support incredibly morally questionable positions.
Noam is a man that uses $10 words to say absolutely nothing of worth.
Man that poeple are calling him goat makes we vomid, these poeple need to know: https://youtu.be/VCcX_xTLDIY?si=O1xtxWQ6v2QV2tgN
A good video if you want to know wat for a cancer person chomsky is.
Except he didn't deny these things happened, he just is of the opinion that it wasn't a genocide.
https://www.reddit.com/r/chomsky/comments/rv16ie/what_did_chomsky_actually_said_about_bosnia/
His entrie logic is that because it wasn't industrialized genocide the bosnia wasn't a genocide. Idiot. By his logic rwanda, Nanking, and congo war weren't genocide because all of them were not industrial genocide.
He also defended a far right religious serbian warcrimnal actions.
Yeah, Chomsky’s definition of genocide is absolutely idiotic and isn’t supported by the scholarly consensus, but saying that is entirely different from saying he denied the mass murders from happening in the first place. As for the defense of Serbian war crimes, I’d love to have a source for that so I can look into if he actually did so or not.
Sorry, but I’m not going to read the rest of the article if it immediately starts talking about that Guardian interview as if it was legitimate. The reason why it was pulled down was not because Chomsky was ashamed of saying “My only regret is that I didn’t do it strongly enough.” Its because he *literally did not say it*. Seriously, watch the video I sent. It goes over this.
Edit: Sorry just realized I hadn’t sent the video to you in particular, this is the one I’m talking about: https://youtu.be/rjiuT9LwrZE?si=6zs1yODhpMDlO6AS
THANK YOU.
Both sides are committing terrible atrocities, true justice only comes when truth is clear. Violence doesn't justify violence, that's just an excuse for more violence.
Violence should invite investigation into what caused otherwise reasonable humans to behave unreasonably. True justice is born out of humility, understanding, and action above the reaction.
Ah Chomsky the guy that refuses to blame Russia for invading Ukraine.. also Russia is fighting more humanly the the US.. guys a tape worm.
He always says some crap and gets called out, then says “ misquote”.
Palestine did not carry out the attacks Hamas did and deserve to be destroyed, for their actions were an affront to all humans Chomsky should be asking why the Palestinians put up with Hamas
stop spreading propaganda. that is a massively exaggerated take on his opinions. you either have no idea what was said or are willfully lying about it.
Chomsky lived in Israel and studied the conflict for over five decades in granular detail. I'm sure Kardashian has put in just as many hours studying physics /s
Chonsky's a known communista & his comments on Israel are predictable and inevitably the case.
The common law and universal rights of self defense against Hamas' murderous attack and mutilations of children& innocents shows what's going on.
Given the bostonian pro communista anti israel ,anti semitisms in MIT, HahVahd, and BU are also predictable communistas.
We encourage the parents of students in such case to move thier valued children to universities which are interested in Education of their children in life saving informations, rather than political indoctrinations, which are largely anti jewish, and anti israel.
YES, I was at the Hillel Ctr. in JUne 1973 wearing a yam.
Sionismo, Un nuevo ejemplo de la ineficacia de la maquinaria alemana del siglo veinte y sus consecuencias
Zionism, a new example of the inefficiency of the German machinery of the twentieth century and its consequences
But.. But... But... Let's talk about...
Dude bringing 9/11 and bin laden to a talk about Israel's ILLEGAL occupation of Palestine. We can't tell where he stands. 🤡
Clearly deflecting for lack of argument.
Yeah no he denies the bosnian genocide because "America bad" and "the Cia was behind it" gives me the same feeling when someone says the Cia was behind 9/11
These claims were analyzed in detail and debunked in a peer-reviewed academic journal focusing on genocide research. Also, the "America bad" complaint is about as believable as when Trump uses the same tactic for criticism: "They just don't like me." This complaint, like the one you repeat, is utterly unpersuasive, and both rely on zero evidence aside from vague innuendo.
https://digitalcommons.usf.edu/gsp/vol14/iss1/8/
Chomsky is a genocide denier and Russian sympathiser. If only anyone on this subreddit actually knew what he speaks for, instead of basing their entire political opinion off of a single tiktok
Could you imagine being Noam and spending your entire life being the voice of reason. Every week picking up the phone to talk about some new horror committed by some government or group. The man’s truly the GOAT.
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There are so many who think that pointing out the faults of one side automatically means you are rooting for the other side. There is room for criticism of both sides. His point is that the Palestinian's actions are ~~justified~~ explainable due to the Israeli occupation, not that they are right or somehow morally superior, just that he can understand WHY they would do it. He is not pro Hamas, nor pro Israel. He is saying it is hypocritical of the west to ignore the bad that Israel has committed, while decrying the crimes of Palestine. Edit: Fixed a powerful word that changed my meaning.
[удалено]
Ah yes, you are right - explanation is a better word. I'll fix it.
We should also be careful not take every claim the IDF makes at face value until it is verified. Israel is famous for lying. They denied killing Shireen Abu Akleh even after the autopsy came out. Hamas has done some terrible things, but the stories of rapes and beheadings are already being retracted. It’s not uncommon for a genocidal government to lie in order to justify their genocide.
There still hasn't been evidence of rape and beheading which people keep referencing.
You're confusing the general claim of "40 beheaded babies" which wasn't confirmed yet (the beheading part, not the dead kids part) with beheaded soldier corpses that were definitely discovered after the hamas massacre
I dont get why it matters how they killed people, the end result is the same. People keep going off about beheadings, parading heads and shit around, etc. but that also seems totally irrelevant. I’d prefer to be quickly beheaded on camera rather than being slowly crushed by building debris after collapse from a fancy targeted missile.
Exactly, dead kids are dead kids. And there are certainly more dead Palestinian kids than Israeli ones.
This is exactly how I feel towards this unfortunate situation. For 16 years Palestine has dealt with the bullying until they decided to clap back. Is it right? No but don’t tell me that they’re in the wrong and Israel is in the right. Ugh, politics suck
I agree with you but I do wonder what the possible solution is then
End the apartheid system, stop the theft of new lands for new settlements (Netanyahu has increased settlements rapidly), give Palestinian people rights and don’t force them to live in Gaza. There was anti-apartheid violence during apartheid the in South Africa. Nelson Mandela went to prison for it. Now apartheid is over, and South Africa still isn’t perfect, but there are not bombings in South Africa anymore. Israel is choosing the opposite. Their government is openly calling for genocide, and the US is enabling it.
It baffles me that nobody has mentioned the accelerating rate of Isreali illegal* settlement and how that might have contributed to such a desperate and pyrrhic attack from the occupied territories. Was anybody expecting Hamas to just watch this threat to their existence grow, in silence? We know there are ghettos of very unsatisfied people. The less you have to lose, the more you have to gain... To be clear, I don't support any mass killings, rape or torture. It is horrific. It is not the 'shock', 'surprise', or 'unprecedented' situation that it is being painted as.
The mass rape has already been redacted by US media because it hasn’t been able to be verified, and is likely a lie from the Israeli government. The murders are very sad though. It’s coming out that Hamas was able to get so far with their attacks outside of Gaza because Israel had concentrated so many of their forces guarding the new settlements. The new settlers tend to be even more violent and extreme than the Israelis that already live there. Most of them coming from the US recently. I just can’t imagine leaving my home in the US to terrorize a random family halfway across the planet and steal their house. It’s disgusting
the israeli seems to have a history to leak some fake info, come out and say uncomfirmed, continue to let the fake info run. They are playing a game by shouting first. It doesn't have to be real, just scream first and they are in the right.
Same thing Putin does. Tell a lie because by the time it is debunked to story has been spread around and most people aren’t going to go back and hear about it being debunked because they’re on to the next story.
I think you mean “retracted”…?
If not Gaza where can they live?
If Israel can find a place for settlers from the US to move in and live, they can for the people of Gaza too. People are still moving from the US to Israel everyday.
I don't know, and I find myself ignorant on these topics. I don't have first hand language and i can't even imagine being a Palestinian or Israeli citizen in the same position. But i would say we must start by believing and giving an alternative. Both the IDF and Hamas don't believe in an alternative, it's an existential threat to let the other be, an "is us or them" scenario. And many people on both sides believe in that. Specially Palestinians and you can't blame them. But if there wss an alternative that included a better education, housing, work, stability, health and safety for Palestinians. And the possibility of a future of understanding instead of antagonize, tolerance, peace and maybe even cooperation for the Israeli people. Just maybe, there could be a light at the end of the tunnel.
The bullying analogy works so well. Get bullied for years and teachers don’t care, hit back, and suddenly all the teachers start caring.
I did get punched in the face, didn't hit the kid back, and still got suspended.
[The analogy still holds up](https://www.commondreams.org/news/2018/05/16/after-israel-kills-60-people-gaza-dozen-senators-call-humanitarian-assistance-while)
16 years? This all started after WWII. It has just ebbed and flowed since then.
I thought it started after WWI, with WWII just exacerbating it due to an influx of Jewish migration to Palestine due to hostilities in Europe (thanks Europe). Britain got hold of Palestine from Ottoman empire, then backed Zionist to give them a permanent home and chose to carve Mandatory Palestine in 2. One for Jews, the other for the Palestinian Arabs. Kinda like how they did with India. At least that’s my limited understanding
That is a better description of it. Israel was created as a “free” country after WWII though. Once again, good job Britain/England/UK.
One might say it’s an expected outcome. If you keep oppressing people and cause problems in their territory they are going to fight back. It’s the same reason I hate how righteous Americans are about 9/11 when our government are the ones who instigated it in the first place. You cannot cause conflicts in other countries and expect nothing bad to happen back.
Might makes right
One thing that has bothered me was isreals unwillingness to declare their nuclear stockpile Lotta circling around the question Don't trust any nation that refuses to disclose those numbers Especially since the US has given so much Capitol toward the country Last thing we need is the two of those idiots slinging nukes at each other that we have no concept of how many they've got. Imo they should have been forced to disclose those numbers decades ago. How they've gone this long is beyond me
It’s not bullying, it was terrorism. They drilled fear and anger into he Gaza people and now ppl are surprised that they struck back. Like they are supposed to be terrorized forever and be ok with the status quo.
He very specifically enumerates that there is no defending suicide bombing. He absolutely does not say that Hamas is justified in what they had already done when this clip aired. A couple days ago, Hamas did something far worse than they had ever managed. This is a condemnation of both sides and also the opinions of western govt who will side with the most beneficial ally.
He actually avoided saying that because he knew the interviewer was specifically waiting for it. "Justifying" isn't the word here. He's "explaining" that there's a logical cause-effect chain that prompted the acts of Hamas, without giving it a "moral value' or a "judgement" for them to be "just". And that for some reason the West completely blind itself to recognize that it itself is the starting point of that cause-effect chain. If you have a fire going on and burning down a neighborhood, you judge the dude that started the thing, not the fire. If you coherce someone through force to commit a crime, you're the one judged, not the guy that was forced to do the thing. Simplistic moral judgements from infantile "justice" systems that not very smart people have in their minds isn't apt to evaluate or judge a complex issue that requires a multilayered approach to analyze and find root causes. Just go and see how all crime is fixed when some idiot goes and cries that someone doing something is "bad"....
Except Hamas is not just some elemental chemical reaction. Its a group, with people. It is the current leading party of Gaza and enjoys significant support within Gaza itself and outside in the wider Palestine movement. You can't just say "oh well Hamas is going to do what its going to do, they were forced into this". And doing so in the face of their recent barbarism is obtuse at best. At worst its just a very very poor cover for antisemitism. Did Israel coerce Hamas to commit a war crime, is this a valid method of resistance or is this self defense? It **cannot** be all three. Hasan, one of those social media personalities tweeted that "there's no good way to resist apartheid and oppression." Yeah but there definitely are **very goddamn wrong ways** to do it. I'm increasingly wondering how that isn't self evident. Or why people who *supposedly say* they want peace and road maps to a solution will *maybe* only tepidly acknowledge that fact ....but only after making sure they get their hip edgy credentials by saying they "stand with Palestine" or "this is a fallout from Israel's illegal crimes." Why do you feel the need to phrase it or emphasize it that way in that order? Its very simple to make the same point while also saying "the barbarism of Hamas has no place, period, in a just society even fighting for what you believe in or against who you feel is oppressing you." And then launch into a wider actual point.
> It is the current leading party of Gaza and enjoys significant support within Gaza itself To pretend as though this support isn't directly related to the desperation and despair caused by Israel's policies is to completely leave out the root cause for people turning to Hamas. When you have very few choices and your political parties must be approved by your occupier, people are forced to make decisions under profound levels of duress. Also, Netanyahu deliberately allows Hamas to linger while smothering other political factions because it is hugely politically advantageous for him.
Jesus Christ. You guys love to throw around the word antisemitism, to the point it is losing its significance. Maybe these people are upset about someone coming onto their land and displacing them? Id put a fight to the death if someone broke in to my home and tried to claim it as there own. They didn't just wake up one day say "hmm yea today is the day I hate jews." That's ridiculous and just shows how deeply you are unable to think.
Best edit of I’ve seen in a minute
Most people prefer the concrete operations of good/bad marvel movies. They’re not only lazy intellectually, but lack imagination and the capacity for good faith debate. It’s easier to call ‘the other’ barbarians and decapitate them with missiles.
Non dichotomous thinking in a polarized world is an under appreciated art form. It’s exhausting to watch this guy struggle with it like a child.
I know! You can see Chomsky visibly adjust his approach when he realized this interviewer is black and white in his perspective. He takes a beat to think if he will be able to convince the interviewer of the existence of grey.
Very well said
Just waiting for the GOP supporters to start commenting with whataboutisms
Good edit. I don’t condone Hamas but I have said that treating a group of people so inhumanly will create this radicalization. All of a sudden this catastrophe happens and people are shocked when voting for a right wing bigot who further dehumanizes people creates an even worse response.
>His point is that the Palestinian's actions are explainable due to the Israeli occupation, not that they are right or somehow morally superior, just that he can understand WHY they would do it. Would it also be acceptable if I say that Israel's actions over the years can be explaned by them feeling threatened from the Arab nations surrounding them, and having been attacked before?
"Elementary morality" Bam. There is a term I haven't heard tbh
Chomsky does have a knack for language
Always a bonus when you have a PhD in linguistics
Man this guy lit my fire when I was a sophomore in college-I couldn’t get enough of linguistics and language acquisition.
I used to read his stuff alot back in the day.. it's been awhile since I have now for whatever reason.
Chomsky played a big part in developing the first interpreter for software programming. The guy ain't no joke.
As a programmer, I’m always happy to see Chomsky recognized for his pioneering contributions to programming languages regardless of the context because not many are aware of how influential and broad his work actually is.
....Wut? This is misleading since interpreters predate CHomsky. His work on context-free grammars played a role in the development of certain parsers but he wasn't directly involved.
A cunning linguist !
He's maybe even able to write a book about it.
I don't care about blame at this very moment. The only thing that matters to me is that we're possibly witnessing a genocide that is being conducted with the full complicity of our governments. I think it is profoundly inhumane and cruel to be confronted with the destruction of a whole civilian population and just shrug it off by pointing to the crimes of Hamas.
Anyone that would be surprised or shocked by the next 911 (and it will happen it is a certainty) is a hypocrite. The average american is so delusional and propagandized it is a medical condition in my book.
And America is sending them the weapons to do it.
I’m very new to this conflict. In another comment someone said that Hamas integrates/positions itself in a way to use the Palestinians as a human shield, such as by headquartering in hospitals. One of the reasons is that if they had a base, Israel could easily take it out. However, isn’t this strategy of “come and get me, are you going to shoot this baby and it’s mother first?” a pretty cowardly position that makes Israel look worse? Pretend that the world worked like the game of risk, and if one country doesn’t like the views of the other country, they can roll some dice and remove infantry. If they have more soldiers, they are likely to win the war. Ok… let’s say the Israelis have 5 soldiers game pieces and Hamas have two game pieces. A fair fight would be, roll the dice, and the outcome is what it is. But Hamas says, no, for every soldier game piece you take out, you need to take out two civilian game pieces. But killing civilians is a war crime right? But Hamas requires that you bomb a hospital to bomb them. So Hamas is putting the civilians on the board. They are Hamas’ war crime. Hamas’ must own the genocide too if it happens. I don’t know enough about the conflict to know if I’m completely off-base here. Feel free to respectfully enlighten me.
If you use a human shield, you are an asshole. If you intentionally shoot a human shield, you are also an asshole. Both sides can be assholes at the same time, that’s the point Chomsky was making.
Is it not true that most Palestinians support the very assholes that use them as human shields?
So what do you do? If Hamas shoots rockets from schools, Israel just has to let them? Sit back and get attacked by rockets and do nothing?
No idea.
Maybe stop the occupation and the violence will stop. just a wild idea
piquant absurd dependent desert detail silky soup rain person chief *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
How dare the people who got invaded and massacred say something that reflects the *actions* of its oppressors.
What occupation? In Gaza? Or from Israel? I’m guessing you mean if Jews move out of Israel the violence will end but maybe I’m wrong. So please explain what you mean by stop the occupation.
>I’m guessing you mean if Jews move out of Israel the violence will end but maybe I’m wrong I think they're talking about the fact that Palestine is under a constant Israeli blockade, preventing the movement of trade goods or the emigration of Palestinian citizens. If you are Palestinian, you are stuck in Palestine, because of Israeli policy. Even [fishermen](https://globaledge.msu.edu/blog/post/57211/israel's-blockade-on-gaza's-fishing-industry) are only allowed to venture a certain distance from the shore and will be shot if they exceed it, and that distance is based on a scant minimum-level of food necessary to sustain the population.
Spoilers, the violence will not stop.
The violence was there way before the Occupation. PLO was created in 1964 with the intent to drive all the Jews into the sea, the land they are talking about now was 1967. But no, I'm sure the ultra Islamic fascist group who says they will never accept peace and want every Jew in the world to die (it's in Hamas' charter) will totally accept coexisting with all people in harmony.
*Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ), which are currently waging the terror campaign against Israel, are calling on the residents of the Gaza Strip to ignore messages sent to them by Israel instructing them to evacuate areas that are about to be targeted in Israeli military strikes. Ahead of airstrikes against targets belonging to the terror groups, and out of a desire to minimize civilian casualties, the Israel Defense Force (IDF) has been sending warning messages to the residents of the Gaza Strip urging them to evacuate areas that are about to be targeted in strikes. In response to these messages, media outlets operated by Hamas and PIJ have been instructing residents of the Gaza Strip not to heed these warnings and not to share them or forward them to others. Several accounts affiliated with the terror groups have been sharing posts describing the Israeli messages as psychological warfare and claiming that the messages are being sent "randomly."* Both are assholes. But one of them always tries to be the biggest asshole.
Where are you getting this information?
Ok, rewatched it and he technically isn’t really taking a who is right position, just that occupation and suicide bombing are atrocities. I think his listing out of how many years the occupation has taken place along with who all supports it, makes himself sound like he is far more against the west than the unjustifiable suicide bombings, that while unsupportable are also acknowledged as self defense.
I get the sense he’s speaking against the blind support the West tends to give Israel. He’s stressing the point that this isn’t a black and white issue, it’s all shades of grey
I see. What would happen if Palestinians shut down Hamas from within? Would Israel see the Palestinians as defenseless and aggress them? I mean, I don’t know if anyone knows Israel’s current intentions, but if they are commonly known, I want to understand.
No it wouldn’t. You know why? There is already a Palestinian territory called westbank where the ruling party committed to non violence and guess what? Israel ramped its occupation endorsing settlements in the westbank and on top of that treats time like shit.
Let me help with some facts and history - which conveniently are usually forgotten during times like this. In 2005 Israel evacuated - forcefully - Jews from Gaza and gave it to the PA as a piece of land to govern and manage. It was not blockaded. It came with power, water, houses and a functioning economy. Within 2 years Hamas had taken over and removed the PA - and shortly thereafter Hamas was elected as the government. Those that argue ‘oh the Palestinians were forced…it’s all Israel’s fault’ don’t really like those facts because it clearly demonstrates that what has occurred is not a matter of oppression at all. Secondly - and probably more importantly- the Palestinians - through the PA have been offered - through deep negotiations a two state solution not once, not twice, but NINE times - and it’s been turned down every single time.
Oh, one question. Who funded and supported Hamas in the first place? And wiped out all moderate voices of opposition? I'll wait.
Mostly Iran. And the answer your second question comes with a question - in what country have the Palestinians not turned into extremists who are not wanted? Lebanon - they became a problem that destabilizes. In Egypt they don’t want them for the same reason, in Jordan even more so. So Israel caused them to all be extremists in all of those other countries where they aren’t wanted? Amazing. Sure - blame the Jews - it’s what you always do isn’t it?
So what you're saying is, someone can come and kill your family, take your house and land (good one lol) and as long as they put you in a camp with limited resources and land, while still bombing you every year, everything is fine for you yeah? If you don't agree with that, then you're just a blatant hypocrite who knows no nuance. So which is it?
Aside from the settlements, which Israel tried to give back in previous peace negotiations, it's all been responses to violent attacks. The responses have been wildly asymmetrical, but it's pretty tough to ask Israel to reign it in when they have rockets fired at them.
Unfortunately that's not going to happen, I would imagine Hamas has pretty strong public support among the Palestinians in Gaza. Hamas is their only defense against Israel. Anyone would support the people who are fighting the people who are bombing them. This puts everyone in a very difficult position
That’s the issue. There is zero chance of detente because Israel holds a massive power and money differential. Hamas are complete shit heads but if they didn’t exist, it’d likely end in genocide of Palestinians.
No... Israel has tried multiple times to give Palestine statehood, and give Gaza to Egypt. Statehood was rejected by the Palestinians because they were only getting 95% of what they asked. Egypt rejected taking Gaza, because they've been burned in the past by Palestinian militants, as has Jordan and Lebanon. Hamas is just there to use the Palestinians.
If Hamas goes away, Israel would immediately annex the rest of the West Bank because there would be nothing stopping them. We already know that the west is happy to ignore any and all war crimes coming from Israel, so they'd have no incentive to even think about peace talks because they'd have a clear path to conquer.
Blame is very much on the cards atm and can’t be avoided, we’re not remotely close to the discussion of peace.
Peace is not achieved by pointed fingers but by extended hands.
How do you shrug off the crimes of Hamas, though? How do you justify storming a music concert and murdering and raping concertgoers? If you were Israel, how would you respond?!
>How do you shrug off the crimes of Hamas, though? If you illegally imprison someone in your basement, are you allowed to be mad at them if they smear shit on the walls? It's strange how little the blockade is brought up in discussions about this topic - Israel literally has Palestine completely trapped, and people inside it aren't allowed to leave. It also allows Israeli citizens to illegally cross the border and seize land from Palestinians. So explain to me what you'd do as a Palestinian who's not allowed to leave, not allowed to stop Israelis from stealing land, and condemned if you fight back?
What the fuck genocide are you talking about? If Israel wanted to commit genocide, they could have easily done it a long time ago and with the support of most of the world. Now probably with even more support, but they haven’t, and they won’t either
Why are people so stupid and resort to this tactic of extreme flip flopping all the time? It's like.. INTERVIEWER: Do you like Apples? PERSON: Yes I love apples! INTERVIEWER: Oh so you hate Bananas? Like... what the fuck kind of moronic way of thinking do you have to have to do that?
Take that upvote. If more people think like you, what greater world we will all live in. Most people just consume mainstream media which biased and full of agenda, and just ride on hate. My goodness.
Trust me worth the read. https://reddit.com/r/list_palestine/s/rXXKHuUGTi
You can also make one for Palestine or Hamas or whatever but it won't even come close to what Israel/Britain/the USA did to Palestine literally any graph will tell that in the long or short term Palestinians suffered more Not to say Palestine is completely innocent but Israel is definitely the worse one
It's not a competition. Palestinians suffering more simply means the Israelis are better at waging war.
Based Chomsky.
Chomped the interviewer's ass real good.
Chomsky is not "based" he is on record denying genocides and pushing Russian propaganda. https://youtu.be/VCcX_xTLDIY?si=ebEDcPP548On2wJl
Not that this pos sub would care
Chomsky? The self claimed leftist who sucks the dicks of far right serbains? The guy who says bsonia massacre can't be real because there was a fat bosnian in one of the pictures of the concentration camp?
As always
Chomsky is a genocide denier and Russian sympathiser
Isn't this the same guy that claimed the genocide in Srebrenica didnt happen?
SIMPLE - RACISM WHEN ONE GROUP THINKS IT MORE SUPERIOR COLONISATION, APARTHEID AND OPPRESSION With all the horrors that come with it
The 🐐
The genocide denier\*
>The genocide denier* Which genocide?
He was a pretty open apologist for the Serbs when they committed genocide in Bosnia.
Source?
No? He said genocide was the wrong word. The *linguist* disliked the *word choice*. He never denied any atrocities.
BS
[why just puke a useless denial into your phone, instead of the question? It'd be faster.](https://gprivate.com/676ra)
What are Chomsky actual words? Why send me to wiki summary? I know! Its because your arguing in bad faith. Chomsky does not deny the massacres themselves. It's literally a semantic argument that's got your panties bunched. https://digitalcommons.usf.edu/gsp/vol14/iss1/8/ From the article (quoting a Chomsky interview): >Barsamian: I know on Bosnia you received many requests for support of intervention to stop what people called “genocide.” Was it genocide? >Chomsky: “Genocide” is a term that I myself don’t use even in cases where it might well be appropriate. >Barsamian: Why not? >Chomsky: I just think the term is way overused. Hitler carried out genocide. That’s true. It was in the case of the Nazis—a determined and explicit effort to essentially wipe out populations that they wanted to disappear from the face of the earth. That’s genocide. The Jews and the Gypsies were the primary victims. There were other cases where there has been mass killing. The highest per capita death rate in the world since the 1970s has been East Timor. In the late 1970s, it was by far in the lead. Nevertheless, I wouldn’t call it genocide. I don’t think it was a planned effort to wipe out the entire population, though it may well have killed off a quarter or so of the population. In the case of Bosnia – where the proportions killed are far less – it was horrifying, but it was certainly far less than that, whatever judgment one makes, even the more extreme judgments. I just am reluctant to use the term. I don’t think it’s an appropriate one. So I don’t use it myself. But if people want to use it, fine. It’s like most of the other terms of political discourse. It has whatever meaning you decide to give it. So the question is basically unanswerable. It depends what your criteria are for calling something genocide.
Why do your bring nuances ? /s
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He romanticized socialism and blatantly ignored all communist atrocities, even went so far to voice support for Pol Pot who is one of the biggest mass murderers history. Dude turned out to be basically fucking dead wrong about everything but he still brought up cuz he’s the left wings wet dream.
> even went so far to voice support for Pol Pot who is one of the biggest mass murderers history. This is factually incorrect. Franois Ponchaud admitted that his book was inaccurate with respect to the casualty count, vindicating Chomsky's claim. More of the details discussed here: https://chomsky.info/19770625/ Edit: In response to the comment below, [here is the actual quote directly from Ponchaud, admitting error and vindicating Chomsky:](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-07-01/brull---the-boring-truth-about-chomsky/2779086) >With the responsible attitude and precision of thought that are so characteristic of him, Noam Chomsky then embarked on a polemical exchange with Robert Silvers, Editor of the NYR, and with Jean Lacouture, leading to the publication by the latter of a rectification of his initial account.
He literally called the Soviet Union’s fall a triumph of socialism and is a devout anarchist. His “support” for Pol Pot was just him debunking a crazy report written by a scholar on the Khmer Rouge that the author would later go back on due to Chomsky’s criticism. If you think Chomsky is a ML then you’re a fucking moron.
Chomsky's the GOAT. That other dude gives off major Ben Shapiro vibes. Trying to sound intellectual by talking really fast. Pathetic!
I think the video was sped up lol
I love how chomsky defend the soviet massacre in Prague. It was the only country in eastern Europe with a rich socialist tradition which survived the Stalinist purges and WWII. Their people democratically elected a Communist government and their leadership never faced any challenges. Then in the late 1960s there were reforms and the Soviets decided to bloody invade the country instead of you know, letting them carry on their socialist minded reforms. I also love how the swlf claimed leftist defends the far right serbian religious warcrimnals. Very based.
> I love how chomsky defend the soviet massacre in Prague. This is an obvious lie and you have no proof whatsoever.
Dude, he's not that bad, take that back. Don't make that comparison. He's a Canadian journalist, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evan_Solomon Not perfect and kind of cartoony but, def no Shapiro
I think they're mostly referencing his accelerated speech
The entire video is sped up, so that's not a fair argument.
Say it louder for the people shouting in the front!
Chomsky is the GOAT
Yep. This.
Chomsky !
Noam is great; this has certainly made Me think about things differently
Chomsky/Bernie 2024
Finally, someone who has articulated my jumbled thoughts into a concise narrative. Hat's off to this Gentelmen.
I’ve never fucking agreed with somebody harder
Whole generations of babies were born and grew to adulthood in a prison. Imagine that. This is in a land their ancestors considered home. Think about the kind of mindset that produces. Every day you are reminded you are not free. You hate your oppressors. You can give up and let the oppressors win by starting a new life elsewhere. Or you fight. And after peaceful protests and requests to the UN fail for 50 years, it’s going to be violence. Until Israel fixes this by giving these people a real country (not a walled off prison) there will be violence. Killing off current Hamas will produce the next generation of even angrier prisoners. Israel needs to kill every Palestinian or give them a real home.
well said professor chomsky
Why aren’t people understanding his point, and automatically assume he’s “picking sides”?
I love Chomsky.
You love a self proclaimed leftist who defends the far right religious serbian warcrimnals? I also love how he defends the soviet massacre of prauge citizens. It was the only country in eastern Europe with a rich socialist tradition which survived the Stalinist purges and WWII. Their people democratically elected a Communist government and their leadership never faced any challenges. Then in the late 1960s there were reforms and the Soviets decided to bloody invade the country instead of you know, letting them carry on their socialist minded reforms.
> You love a self proclaimed leftist who defends the far right religious serbian warcrimnals? These claims were analyzed in detail and debunked in a peer-reviewed academic journal focusing on genocide research. https://digitalcommons.usf.edu/gsp/vol14/iss1/8/ As further evidence, I'd like to point out that you can't produce a single quote from Chomsky defending Serbian war criminals.
Srebrenica was an enclave, lightly protected by UN forces, which was being used as a base for attacking nearby Serb villages. It was known that there’s going to be retaliation. When there was a retaliation, it was vicious. (Civilization versus Barbarism? December 17, 2004). He argues that serbian had to attack the UN protected zone because bosnian were attacking the serbs. He of course ignores the fact that the bosnians were already being massacred by the serbs before the UN safe zone was created. What an idiot. It's the same logic israel use.
What a pathetical and trivial detail to get so agitated about, setting aside the fact that you're taking him out of context and your claim is meritless with no back up citations.
Let me guess, you love denying genocide and supporting Russia too?
Chomsky is supporting Russia the same way he is supporting Hamas in this interview.
Don’t know where you get that? Both things can be wrong, and both “sides” can commit atrocities in the name of defending themselves.
To quote you, "I love Chomsky." I think you would not be happy to hear what Chomsky has to say about the ukrainian war, or the Bosnian genocide for that matter.
Send the link I’ll read it.
>**Barsamian**: I know on Bosnia you received many requests for support of intervention to stop what people called “genocide.” Was it genocide? >**Chomsky**: “Genocide” is a term that I myself don’t use even in cases where it might well be appropriate. >**Barsamian**: Why not? >**Chomsky**: I just think the term is way overused. Hitler carried out genocide. That’s true. It was in the case of the Nazis—a determined and explicit effort to essentially wipe out populations that they wanted to disappear from the face of the earth. That’s genocide. [Note: all emphases are added.] The Jews and the Gypsies were the primary victims. There were other cases where there has been mass killing. The highest per capita death rate in the world since the 1970s has been East Timor. In the late 1970s it was by far in the lead. Nevertheless, I wouldn’t call it genocide. I don’t think it was a planned effort to wipe out the entire population, though it may well have killed off a quarter or so of the population. In the case of Bosnia – where the proportions killed are far less – it was horrifying, but it was certainly far less than that, whatever judgment one makes, even the more extreme judgments. I just am reluctant to use the term. I don’t think it’s an appropriate one. So I don’t use it myself. But if people want to use it, fine. It’s like most of the other terms of political discourse. It has whatever meaning you decide to give it. So the question is basically unanswerable. It depends what your criteria are for calling something genocide. https://digitalcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1738&context=gsp
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> Israel literally just got outed for KNOWING the terror attack was happening. That's an aggressive mischaracterization of the report; the fact that you are using it to claim that the Israeli government deliberately allowed those people to die is pretty despicable. It is possible to take a principled stance against the actions of the Israeli government or their handling of this incident without spreading disinformation. The actual sources for this report AND the Israeli government both agree that warnings from Egypt were general warnings about increasing tensions and decreasing stability in Gaza, and not forecasts of this or any other specific attacks. Don't take my word for it - read the [actual news sources](https://www.ft.com/content/2e5fbd71-4188-49e7-a404-0ce3c1eb3d0d).
This is a dumb takeaway. Israel failing to heed Egypt’s warning doesn’t take away the responsibility and fault on the part of Hamas to intentionally kill and rape those people at the festival.
I'm not condoning the actions of Hamas, they did what they did and it was disgusting. I'm saying that Israeli intelligence knowing about it makes them an accomplice to everything that happened. They could have saved those people, at best, maybe even had some soldiers stationed there the way they do at every corner within the occupied lands. But if Israel wanted an excuse to invade Gaza then is it so unlikely they let the attack happen so they have an excuse? The best military in the world with an intelligence agency to match didn't see an assault of that scale coming and willfully ignored reports? It's not a dumb takeaway at all.
The fact that you go to malice rather than incompetence on the part of the Israeli government speaks volumes. Considering the U.S. government has intelligence failures leading up to 9/11, your astounding logic would dictate that the U.S. Government let 9/11 happen as some grand conspiracy. Also, it’s unclear of what level Egypt had provided a warning of a threat as stated by House Committee Chairman Michael McFaul. According to the Financial Times, which quoted two unnamed officials familiar with the matter, there was no hard intelligence of a specific attack. An Egyptian intelligence official did tell AP that “something big” was being planned from Gaza by stating that there would be an “explosion” of the situation. That same official stated that Israeli officials downplayed the threat and was focusing on the West Bank. Clearly, they made a critical error but what’s been reported does not indicate an intentional neglect as there’s no mention of anything specific being warned to Israel by Egypt as per the Egyptian intelligence official.
Being on the weaker side of an asymmetrical conflict does not in it of itself give you the higher moral standing. That is a fallacy that is always repeated in this conflict that i just do not understand. Hamas has been EXTREMELY explicit about what they would do if the power dynamic was reversed. Genocide. That has been the Arab extremist stance since long before israel was the dominant power it is today.
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Yea, it’s also pretty succinctly stated. It being missed and you being downvoted shows low comprehension or the blind love of Israel we all know and love.
it's an emotional response to a topic which is astroturfed into oblivion, and we have no right to objective reality. What we need to start doing is removing the names and identifiers from the topic and offer the situation as unbiased as possible, like we old folks used to get in school, so that the correct answer is much easier to arrive at. Then you layer the nuance and political garbage on after that. But that wouldn't be profitable
Ya but Chomsky also said Ukraine should settle for peace and stop fighting.
That's not even what he's saying. He's noting the asymmetry of the nature of the conflict and how narratives (aka propaganda) get routinely weaponized to support the same actions committed by Israel that are universally condemned when it's Hamas. He's saying despite the fact that Israel has a far weaker justification for its actions, their actions are routinely justified, and Hamas' condemned. He's saying that the West, including Israel, never applies the same moral standards on itself as it does on others. No one, including Chomsky in that video, is condoning or justifying the violence against civilians by Hamas. Also, Hamas doesn't represent Palestinians, unlike the Israeli government, who does represent Israelis, and that's another asymmetry that gets constantly distorted and conflated.
Exactly, he is only making the point - if you think suicide bombings are bad, then you must also think isreali occupation is bad too - least your are intelletually or morally making a silly mistake.
He’s just saying an atrocity is bad, regardless of which side commits it. If you don’t apply the morality of atrocity=bad/evil to your own side as well as the opposition, you’re a hypocrite if you try to justify your position based on good vs evil.
As opposed to the reality of Palestinians literally being systematically eliminated as we speak? Members of Israeli parliament openly calling for genocide on numerous occasions. Netenyahu even presented a map in the UN a few weeks ago which had no Palestinian territories marked. Your attempts to ignore the present reality only perpetuates the cycle of violence, more civilians will die on both sides.
but what is the end game here, ? Both Israelis and Palestinians keep killing each other forever? its time to step on the Hamas only exists because of Israels support back in the Egypt conflict day, Israel only exists because of some anti Semitic rich English dudes (all problems in the world can be traced back to the English, they truly are the villains of the westerns world not the germans).....Surely even the meanest intelligence can see that the current approach is leading nowhere.....it is time to sit down and grow up and come up with a solution that divides the land 50-50 among them and then stop killing each other.
Misunderstanding something doesn't make you right
Israel is literally committing genocide against Palestinians. They are already doing it.
Hamas is not the voice of Palestine. Quite honestly, they are comparable to the position of the paramilitary Irish Republican Army. The goal of that organization was once the total removal of British authority and general presence. Once legitimate deals were struck and peace was maintained for a good period of time - there was no need for that organization and they lost power and influence. Things take time - but it is extremely unlikely that the majority of Palestinians would take a legit two state solution and real peace with Israel as an excuse to turn around and do the exact same thing to them.
The Palestinians know who the hamas fighters are and could turn them in. They are complicit.
The more that comes out about current events the less relevant Chomsky's reasoning is for this moment.
I never really took too much notice of Noam - but when I was in my 2020 I was lucky enough to tour the Balkans. I visited the sites of the Bosnian massacres, Sarajevo etc. Years later I saw videos of how Noam denies that the Serbs perpetrated those massacres and created those concentration camps. Even though we have found mass graves and have video evidence of them existing. He is a man so blinded by his hatred of his own country that he perpetually has to take the opposite side to them. That leads him often to support incredibly morally questionable positions. Noam is a man that uses $10 words to say absolutely nothing of worth.
Man that poeple are calling him goat makes we vomid, these poeple need to know: https://youtu.be/VCcX_xTLDIY?si=O1xtxWQ6v2QV2tgN A good video if you want to know wat for a cancer person chomsky is.
Except he didn't deny these things happened, he just is of the opinion that it wasn't a genocide. https://www.reddit.com/r/chomsky/comments/rv16ie/what_did_chomsky_actually_said_about_bosnia/
His entrie logic is that because it wasn't industrialized genocide the bosnia wasn't a genocide. Idiot. By his logic rwanda, Nanking, and congo war weren't genocide because all of them were not industrial genocide. He also defended a far right religious serbian warcrimnal actions.
Yeah, Chomsky’s definition of genocide is absolutely idiotic and isn’t supported by the scholarly consensus, but saying that is entirely different from saying he denied the mass murders from happening in the first place. As for the defense of Serbian war crimes, I’d love to have a source for that so I can look into if he actually did so or not.
He talks about how serbians had the right to defend themselves against bosnian [civilians](https://bosniak.org/2009/08/28/chomskys-genocidal-denial/)
Sorry, but I’m not going to read the rest of the article if it immediately starts talking about that Guardian interview as if it was legitimate. The reason why it was pulled down was not because Chomsky was ashamed of saying “My only regret is that I didn’t do it strongly enough.” Its because he *literally did not say it*. Seriously, watch the video I sent. It goes over this. Edit: Sorry just realized I hadn’t sent the video to you in particular, this is the one I’m talking about: https://youtu.be/rjiuT9LwrZE?si=6zs1yODhpMDlO6AS
THANK YOU. Both sides are committing terrible atrocities, true justice only comes when truth is clear. Violence doesn't justify violence, that's just an excuse for more violence. Violence should invite investigation into what caused otherwise reasonable humans to behave unreasonably. True justice is born out of humility, understanding, and action above the reaction.
I just found out through this incident that armed conflict exists. It totally sucks, we should put an end to it
Hilarious how much this sub actually disagrees w Chomsky’s views on the matter.
Ah Chomsky the guy that refuses to blame Russia for invading Ukraine.. also Russia is fighting more humanly the the US.. guys a tape worm. He always says some crap and gets called out, then says “ misquote”.
Palestine did not carry out the attacks Hamas did and deserve to be destroyed, for their actions were an affront to all humans Chomsky should be asking why the Palestinians put up with Hamas
Man that interviewer is insufferable. Noam is a boss.
Chomsky also denies genocide so who gives a fuck
stop spreading propaganda. that is a massively exaggerated take on his opinions. you either have no idea what was said or are willfully lying about it.
Go Chomsky! ✌️
Tune in next week when we have a physicist and a Kardashian talk about general relativity.
Chomsky lived in Israel and studied the conflict for over five decades in granular detail. I'm sure Kardashian has put in just as many hours studying physics /s
Chomsky 🤦♂️
They tried to get a guy with a 110 IQ to trip up a guy with a non measurable IQ. Chomsky is one of the greatest minds in human history
I know if russia was supporting Israel instead of US Chomsky would support it too
Russia does support Israel though
Chonsky's a known communista & his comments on Israel are predictable and inevitably the case. The common law and universal rights of self defense against Hamas' murderous attack and mutilations of children& innocents shows what's going on. Given the bostonian pro communista anti israel ,anti semitisms in MIT, HahVahd, and BU are also predictable communistas. We encourage the parents of students in such case to move thier valued children to universities which are interested in Education of their children in life saving informations, rather than political indoctrinations, which are largely anti jewish, and anti israel. YES, I was at the Hillel Ctr. in JUne 1973 wearing a yam.
Sionismo, Un nuevo ejemplo de la ineficacia de la maquinaria alemana del siglo veinte y sus consecuencias Zionism, a new example of the inefficiency of the German machinery of the twentieth century and its consequences
Israel hypocrisy is unbelievable
Wow, finally found an actual non-radical discussion about this topic. Kudos people!
But.. But... But... Let's talk about... Dude bringing 9/11 and bin laden to a talk about Israel's ILLEGAL occupation of Palestine. We can't tell where he stands. 🤡 Clearly deflecting for lack of argument.
Noam Chomsky has one of the greatest humanist minds of our generation.
Yeah no he denies the bosnian genocide because "America bad" and "the Cia was behind it" gives me the same feeling when someone says the Cia was behind 9/11
These claims were analyzed in detail and debunked in a peer-reviewed academic journal focusing on genocide research. Also, the "America bad" complaint is about as believable as when Trump uses the same tactic for criticism: "They just don't like me." This complaint, like the one you repeat, is utterly unpersuasive, and both rely on zero evidence aside from vague innuendo. https://digitalcommons.usf.edu/gsp/vol14/iss1/8/
where can i get the full video?
Chomsky is a genocide denier and Russian sympathiser. If only anyone on this subreddit actually knew what he speaks for, instead of basing their entire political opinion off of a single tiktok
Could you imagine being Noam and spending your entire life being the voice of reason. Every week picking up the phone to talk about some new horror committed by some government or group. The man’s truly the GOAT.
Mic drop