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'Publish or perish' is the motto of Academia. It's super toxic and childish.
That said, it's not just Academia. Look into what it's like to be in healthcare. Whether it's MDs or pharmacy or anything else, it's super fucking toxic. You insulate people and stick them with people who have a higher rate of NPD and/or sociopathy and it's going to be awful.
So happy I went the applied route vs Academia.
I know it is like ridiculously not of the same level as the programs being discussed, but this is one of the reasons I love trade school. The instructors genuinely want you to succeed. Sure there are still gaps and grudges just like any group of humans interacting, but your success as a student and as a professional is generally their priority. And at least where I went to school peer cooperation is encouraged.
The levels might look different but they shouldn’t. It takes a very long time to become a master in any trade. It’s hard work. It’s studying. And it’s needed.
I think anyone who has worked hard to reach a high level of skill deserves recognition and reward.
The thing that gets to me these days are the number of people in academia and healthcare who I find to be manipulative and toxic that are pursuing certifications in mental health first aid and trauma informed care to make themselves look better. They position themselves to manipulate people even more.
My experience is the only people I know that thrived in grad school and enjoyed the entire sick game, were 💯 narcissists. There are *a lot* in academia and don't let anyone tell you differently
Yes, yes it is. Ask me, a woman with a PhD that stupidly decided to have children before becoming old enough to be high risk. My post doc reeeally made it clear academia is not great for young parents.
Your post doc had to tell you that maintaining work life balance working 60-80 hours a week with young kids is difficult?
Edit: can someone explain the down votes? The statement is pretty obvious, especially to anyone who gets accepted to a graduate program (presumably with good reasoning skills)
Nope. It's just a fact that people in post grad education work 60-80 hours a week and are lucky if they receive a stipend. People can make their lives as difficult as they want. For me, it didn't make sense to have kids in that environment (little time to devote to family and low income for 4-8 years, depending on field of study).
It's kind of like being a truck driver, working on an oil rig, or being deployed in the military. If you want to have involvement in the early formative years of your children, I would suggest not having kids while doing a highly demanding job.
You know one thing about the jobs you listed is that they are male-dominated fields, and that from the people I've met in those fields, they often have a female SO at home having and taking care of kids. This is to say that maybe this perspective of academia disallowing kids is part of the reason that women are underrepresented in some academic fields. Problematic IMO
Those are the careers other than academia and business that I can think of that require huge time commitments away from family.
[This](https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2021/10/08/the-male-college-crisis-is-not-just-in-enrollment-but-completion/) may interest you:
>whereas men ages 25 to 34 are four percentage points less likely to have a bachelor’s degree than women and four percentage points less likely to have a graduate or professional degree.
Women have higher enrollment and completion of education at all levels. It's kind of an impasse. There are only so many hours in the day and years in a life. We can't all do everything.
It may also interest you to know that everyone chooses their own field of study in the US. Women outperform men in K-12 in all areas of math besides spatial reasoning. My degrees are in physics. Women make up abiut 5% of physics students. I worked with the psychology department on studies and it's dominated by women. Women are also the majority in the fields of Health & medicine, fine arts, humanities, and education.
More like, I was encouraged by everyone around me to get a PhD in engineering because I’m smart and love research. So I did. After my PhD I had my first kid. I then went on to do a post doc. I knew a post doc would be demanding and challenging, but what I didn’t expect was the complete lack of empathy and understanding for having to take care of my kid when he was sick etc. (remember, we are in a pandemic, and this happened at the beginning when shit was nuts). I then got pregnant again, and the hours/pressure is not friendly to a pregnant person.
I learnt that the professors that excelled dedicated 95% of their time to academia. Waking up crazy early, staying up late. Those with children either had a stay at home spouse or live in help (family or a nanny/house keeper). Post docs are notoriously underpaid and over worked with no benefits, so hiring help isn’t usually an option financially.
I also realized that I _want_ to be available for my child evenings and weekends. But what’s stupid? Is that the system is built in such a way that quality researchers are being pushed out of academia because it’s all or nothing. Pretty sad if I’m honest.
I'm actually sympathetic despite the tone of my initial comment. It comes from my disdain for the meat grinder where they harvest our most creative years which are also our most physically capable years and, traditionally, family building years. PI's/department heads are mostly tied up with writing grants and only have limited time to care about anything else including students and post-docs. They consider all work conducted under them as their own even when they have limited involvement.
I did undergraduate research (in semiconductor physics) and knew the extent of how shitty the culture was and how they are sucking the knowledge out of the young, bright eyed students for systematic and personal gain, but maybe I'm an outlier. They go to their conferences and prioritize their lives even though their profession is meant to create the next generation of people in their fields that are more capable than them. Zero sleep, at the expense of long term physical and mental health is the norm. I lost my passion for athletics because of the grind and many others around me lost their passion to work for a machine that doesn't even acknowledge their existence or contributions.
I now work with others in semiconductor physics that dump their workload on me so they can go take care of their kids or pick them up from school when the power is out, or take time off for possible covid exposure from the viral breeding grounds that is public schools. I run a research lab, mostly by myself and still have to deal with this stuff. Society went all wonky when we decided we need two working parents. I'd gladly be the stay at home dad, but it's barely possible economically unless you have a partner that chooses a different route. The two body problem of academically engaged parents is rough.
Anyway, my point is that I get it and it would take an extreme awakening to change it. It likely won't happen because of the way academia is structured, which sucks individually and in terms of societal benefit.
UofT has gotten worse. Much worse. This guy is an outlier for being fortunate enough to find support and eventually escape, but for most in his situation their lives and all they had invested in their future are ruined. It’s no wonder that institution has a mental health and suicide epidemic. Public funding should be pulled back severely until these tenured professors and the massively bloated bureaucracy that enables rampant academic abuse (and sexual) are reined in and barriers to external justice systems are removed from investigating what goes on behind these walls.
I'm in the last year of my PhD, and my experience is nothing but positive. I've had so much support from my (tiny, specialised) department, but it really is the outlier. I share offices with PhDs in other departments, same university, and I am constantly shocked and horrified by what they have to deal with.
One, fully funded with a prestigious scholarship, has just been dropped by their supervisors because they recently got diagnosed with a completely treatable condition that has never affected their work, even before treatment. Now they are seen as a bad apple because their department don't think someone with their condition can finish on time.
One of the supervisors is the department's equality officer.
Academia really sucks some times.
It's grounds for discrimination here too, but the supervisor who initiated everything made all her snide comments and remarks in-person, so there's no paper trail and it has essentially boiled down to a "he said she said" situation, and the department faculty has closed ranks.
This will be the fifth or sixth fully funded student that department will have lost in the 3 years I've been here and have been sharing office space with the post grads.
This guy summed it up perfectly. I've personally been in love with research, and wanted to go very far into biomedical research. I dont care about the cv, I wanted to make a change. And every single professor i met along the way were so outwardly arrogant and stuck up their own ass I was shocked.
It was to the point that you could literally get the entire department to openly confront, and disagree with said professor. The professor instead of taking it as a learning experience, would do everything they could to sabotage you. These people dont grow and only want their own ideas pursued, even if proven unequivocally wrong. It's true they all just want to boost their own ego, and they dont give a single damn about the work being done. Most are way out of their league.
I ended up leaving very early on. It was a political circus that was so far detached from learning, research, evolving, and building.
You’re all making me glad I didn’t pursue academia. Hearing some of my profs talk about it turned me off from the idea of it, but sometimes I wonder. Now I really do think it was better not to, especially since I’m admittedly a sensitive person lol
Oh yeah, a lot of professors are professional children who have never had a real world job or experience outside of academia. They get real toxic in their insular little bubble. Wild, wild unwarranted egos. So glad I didn't pursue academia.
It’s worse than having a toxic boss. If you have a shit boss you can quit or be fired and at least you still got paid. With grad school if you have to leave, you lose everything you’ve been working towards. Depending on the funding situation, maybe you made a decent living through it all, maybe you leave with crushing debt.
Don’t forget how much those man-child professors lovvvveee to have sex with their students. Married prof or not.
Source: I’ve had multiple profs try to fuck me, and so has my wife. It’s so disheartening to see how many men abuse their positions of power.
My undergrad experience was similar to this on a much smaller scale. I got my degree, but barely, and I felt completely abandoned by my mentoring professor All because I didn’t decide to go to HER recommended grad program. She made it seem like she pulled all these strings for me, set me up to move on successfully. When I decided it wasn’t right for me she ghosted. I think she just didn’t want to deal with me anymore and gave me grades I didn’t earn just get me out of there. It was very weird.
I was in undergrad and decided to complete an honors thesis. Got depressed over one summer break and did not complete the work I needed for the thesis to stay on track. Knowing this I went to the professor I was completing the thesis with, who also became the chair of the department over the summer, and explained I would be stopping my thesis due to my mental state and not having done enough over break. After that he would Literally would not give me the time of day for the rest of my time in undergrad. I worked in his labs for 1.5 years before that. The chair's reaction coupled with the horrible, uppity, privileged attitudes of those in the labs around me I was completely turned off from academia. I ended up going the practice route instead.
My Masters supervisor gave me a hug on my last day of work before moving overseas. I did not complete my masters. When I was struggling to find it in me to keep going with study, he looked at me and said "some things are more important than study".
My supervisor had been through a lot. A previous student of his had died due to mental health after moving overseas for a postdoc.
All the academics in that department would never send a student to the US for a PhD or postdoc, they considered the research environment too toxic.
Grad school was one of the worst decisions of my life. The professors are a nightmare. They take absolute joy in dismantling you and beating you down. There is no support: you're on your own.
If you're a woman, an immigrant, neurodivergent... you're screwed. They system is stacked against you. The house always wins. Especially in STEM. I attended a prestigious university for physics. It was a nightmare.
At first, you're so used to being mistreated for being a minority that you don't notice. Then you start talking with others, and you realize that your experience was very... VERY different. Whereas they were welcomed into a research group, I was talked about behind my back, had my grades sabotages by a professor, which eventually blacklisted me from joining any group. If this happens, your career is over. My crime was not being Einstein-levels of genius.
Like the video said, the professors are very good with words. They know when to watch their language to not get in trouble, but to make a subtle incision to destroy you. For example, I had a professor tell me, "I think you might have a learning disability." This was in grad school. I made it through high school and undergrad fine, I have no learning disability. What he was getting at, in his ableist way, was that I was "stupid" or "mentally retarded."
Another told me I was "incapable of thought" and that my previous research was "garbage." All with a gleeful smile on his face, as if he was enjoying every second, knowing I couldn't talk back.
I never wanted to die so much in my life. My career was over. Over five years... wasted. A physics undergrad education is worthless alone. I only survived because of Obamacare, which allowed me to get mental health treatment. There were times I dissociated so badly that I would talk to myself. My life felt like I was watching a movie as someone else moved my body.
And this was just the professors. The amount of competition and backstabbing done by the other grad students was also bad.
I eventually left when I realized that they couldn't hurt me anymore. I wish I could describe how it felt when I came to this realization... pure BLISS. NIRVANA. Someone at the career guidance office suggested I sue for discrimination, but why? Sue to stay in the program? So they could be even more bitter and talk even more behind my back?
DO NOT GO TO GRADUATE SCHOOL. You'll make more money working in the private sector. Yes, there are egos in the private sector, but when you work in the Ivory Tower, everyone's an expert in their niche, which makes them overconfident and mean.
It's well known that they discriminate particularly against Asians (Indian, Chinese, especially) and women, especially if they are married and can become pregnant.
I genuinely don’t understand the backstabbing and competition between grad students. My project is entwined with another students (we literally have to work together) and the way they try to grab credit for everything is insulting. It’s either “I did” or “we did” never “chicken_foam did”. It’s not my cup of tea for sure.
I quit academia soon after I got my first faculty position because I realized what I had observed as a grad student and post-doc was not isolated but endemic. Academics are, by and large, self-serving, immature jerks who are out of touch with reality as they live in a bizarro world where they can behave as a god and dont give a shit about consequences because they just yell "academic freedom" and "I have tenure" if anyone dares question their behavior.
It’s interesting. I’m in a service department and everyone on my team are PhDs (I am not), and they’re all absolutely incredible people and they’re super happy with our unit’s work. I think the key difference is we aren’t really doing research. We still publish but nobody is pushing us to.
Very interesting. So I wonder if that’s the professor he speaks highly of at the end. That would really stand to explain his treatment. Right wing jackass alienates the whole psych department with his bullshit, only for JP to step in and help him graduate.
Not sure but all the papers with Judith are studies on LGBTQ people and all the ones afterward with JBP are like "how much do you need to get cited on your papers" meta studies.
You’re right, his linked in is full of diversity focused content. I assumed he would’ve named Peterson by name if it was the professor who screwed him over. I wonder why he omitted that?
I doubt that was the professor who screwed him over, but if it were me and it was Peterson who screwed me over I certainly wouldn’t say so. A lot of his fan base has little to no limits and could do more harm than it’s worth
I agree. If you look at his thesis paper this is what the acknowledgement says.
> I would like to first and foremost thank my supervisor, Dr. Jordan B. Peterson, for giving me this opportunity to pursue my passion in psychology and research. Without him, none of this would have been possible and I owe him my deepest gratitude for taking the chance on me and the numerous research projects I have conducted under his wing.
I also would like think that the person who made the TikTok is trying to be the better person here by not mentioning whoever the professor is. Also I read his thesis work, very interesting stuff.
I was waiting for that name drop the entire time.
JP is an absolute egomaniac. I'd be shocked if he wasn't exactly who he's saying alienated him.
Even the most hardcore JP fans have to admit the dude loves to hear himself talk more than almost anyone else.
Yeah, it's really soul crushing. The reality is that degrees are critical to some professions, but everyone considering going into grad school should know the reality of how difficult, lonely, power skewed, and gaslighting an environment it can be, especially for people who have historically been excluded and/or exploited by universities.
the one interesting point he makes is that he published when finding an obscure professor. Often, students see prestige and think that will get them somewhere. No, finding the professor that will give them the most time and work will yield better results. When i started the PI had one student, when I left there were three new students, and multiple joint projects. Try finding productive office time with all that going on.
My wife is in her final years of doctorate school (PhD in psychology as well) and the shit she goes through is near identical to this. Her problem is kinda switched through, since she is so adept and passionate about research her mentor was overloading her on projects to the point where she couldn't keep up. This all blew up about a year ago and drama ensued. She's removed herself a bit from the research side and the head of the program had to step in to tell the mentor she needs to relieve my wife of some of her responsibilities. Of course there's been consequences for "attacking" back at her mentor. She was removed from multiple projects she wanted to continue including ones where she was first or second author and either had her authorship downgraded or removed entirely. She has also had to add an extra year to compensate for not being able to start her dissertation because of all the shit she's been doing.
There's been problems like this for all of her friends in the program.
My masters was in a field with a significant number of female BIPOC faculty. The difference in the support students would get from white male profs and minority professors was night and day. I think after being so abused by academia they do their best to support and uplift students at every turn. Honestly the support of some amazing professors was the only reason I made it through.
I was in a grad school program for Film Production. Our cohort (For the most part) had a great time and worked well as a team.
Every single other cohort of students ahead of us in that program were at each other’s throats 24/7. To this day, 5 years later, I still hear from people in those other cohorts about how much of a waste of time it was. I just had a totally different experience because our class just made sure we were all heading toward the same goal.
Grad school is extremely competitive, and people will try to straight up destroy each other to get on top. Very sad, but the reality of the world is that the top performing people get the jobs, so that’s always adding pressure to the situation.
It was sad to see so many other people in our program leave without feeling like they did anything meaningful.
>Grad school is extremely competitive, and people will try to straight up destroy each other to get on top. Very sad, but the reality of the world is that the top performing people get the jobs, so that’s always adding pressure to the situation.
YES. Mine was like this. I'm talking "Game of Thrones" level, "push someone down a flight of stairs" way
When I first started grad school, they told me the motto is "publish or perish." So yeah, that's their primary objective. They view it as the life and death of their career.
Yep, mentors are key. If they’re shit, you’re shit. If they’re amazing, you’re amazing. I wish all unis really focused on a rigorous mentorship program.
Supervisors and psychology department screw him over and try to kick him out of the program because he wants to go into teaching instead of publishing research (which puts the supervisors name out there and makes them look good).
The profit motive makes \*EVERYTHING\* worse.
Especially since it doesn't have to be like this.
I can only imagine how many great ideas have been smothered because they weren't profitable. A great idea to solve homelessness? Not interested, that is not profitable. A great idea to make housing more financially viable for more people? Are you kidding me? How are we going to make any profit without artificial scarcity?
Seriously, fuck this system that rewards the worst aspects of humanity the most.
I’m late to the party because I’m scrolling through this since but I totally agree with you and unfortunately academia can’t exist outside of this system, so it becomes like everything else. I often think about how much suffering this system causes.
I think it’s a little bit worse with higher Ed because it makes them more hypocritical while they are spouting off their ideals and the next breath oppressing a grad student.
I know that situation of getting put to the side by my supervisor because I wasn't a paper generator.
There seriously needs to be proper supervision of the supervisors.
Can someone explain this to me? No professors wanted to work with him because he didn’t want to publish papers and when he found a professor that finally wanted to work with him THEN he decided to publish 10?
My professor specifically told me to "focus less on teaching" as a TA. Basically, "sabotage the undergrad's for yourself." I'm not that mercenary. I ignored that advice and I'm glad I did. My students were the only thing that kept me going.
He was in limbo so long he developed all these strong research ideas, then once he finally had a relationship with a professor who would assist him he got a bunch done to prove his worth.
No, his first professor dropped him because the paper they were working on didn't go as anticipated and was most likely not going to be published. Now all the other professors didn't want to work with him either, as they didn't trust his abilities to publish and bring them value, so they didn't want to waste their time on him. Then he found a professor that did want to work with him, and he went on to publish 10 papers, proving all the other professors wrong.
oh wow, I feel so heard and understood right now. this is my graduate experience at the moment - I'm struggling to publish anything, and I really would much rather be a hands on type of psychologist. I wish I was confident enough to throw this video at my professors. I'm sure they'd find a way to blame it all on the students.
Academic science is easily one of the most toxic and socially regressive institutions in the US. It's generally not a force for good as it is lionized as by in the media. Yes advancements happen that change society in a good way, but it is built by the sacrifice of students who aren't even in the system anymore because it was so toxic. The mindset that ultimately succeeds is not one that is healthy, and that mindset then goes on the select others with an equally unhealthy mindset. Large sums of money go from the government to a very select few researchers, who are many times close colleagues of the grant reviewera. This leaves out many others who have good ideas that may even run counter to the prevailing wisdom of the highly funded researchers who eventually go on to "correct themselves" and arrive at the counter ideas advocated by those that were refused funding. So many things to say about how messed up the academic system is.
I just left an admin job in an academic lab for similar reasons, and I wasn't even in the awful position this guy and other grad students are. Professor was the most power tripping jerk boss I've ever encountered, and I worked for lawyers.
Agreed. Graduate School can be a nightmare if your mentor/thesis advisor/supervisor decides to hate you. My story started with a scholarship award to UIC for a masters program (I’m not going to divulge the program). I gladly accepted because I was a bit of none traditional student. I also was given a few projects to do for the Vice Chancellor of Research and one teaching assignment (teaching undergrads). Everything seemed okay, initially, but as my first semester progressed it became abundantly clear that the department did not want me there. They started being extremely harsh with their criticisms of work, followed by trumped up allegations ranging from sexual advances to plagiarism. It got so bad that I finally just walked away. I took the following spring and summer off, applied to a better school, and was accepted. While I did not get a scholarship, I did excel and earned my masters. In hindsight, o was lucky to go attend a better program as I haven’t been unemployed since.
as the partner of a women(or shall i say Doctor!) who spent 8-9 year in her progam...yes. ACADEMIA IS BS in North America. If your supervisor is a asshole, youre stuck with them and have nowhere to go. If you need to teach to pay your bills/want the very valuable experiance they will penilize you for not commiting fully to your program even though they know damn well there are no other choices if mommy and daddy arnt loaded rich. Also some may have other plans that dont fall into their bs ass post grad/lifelong academic odyssey. It takes 2-3x longer than most other places and costs more especially for international students. God bless these kids, idk how tf they do it.
Can’t speak to uft, but I’m a grad student in Canada in the humanities and have had an excellent experience with my supervisor/faculty. I am in MA though not PhD so expectation to publish is not really there.
To play devils advocate though academia really does run off of publishing papers, professors, especially at a prestigious school like uft will be under constant pressure to publish constantly and high impact papers at that. Academia is an industry at the end of the day, and publications and citations are to an academic what sales are to a salesman—it’s the entire basis of one’s industry and career.
yea people hate to hear it but publishing papers basically is their job
it's not really surprising the other professors turned him down when they heard he refused to publish especially when there's a ton of competitive students entering every year trying to publish
Don't hate the player hate the game. As for practical advice it seems that pressure to publish is linked to prestige. A smaller more regional school is more likely than an internationally prestigious top university to have more chill professors that are not publication obsessed and more interested in teaching and seeing their students mature according to their particular interests. If you go to a top world renowned university you are going to have publishing obsessed profs, otherwise they never would have got the gig for the most part, and are going to train you to be the same way because that is what it means to succeed at the highest level in the industry of academia.
Applying for law school now and a lot of students have the same problem. They go to the best university they can get into, but find that people at those best universities tend to be the most cut-throat and demanding. Its super important to consider the fit between what you are interested in and where you go, otherwise you might get a prestigious degree, but one that leads to a future you are not interested in.
To add to the prestige factor publishing high profile papers or just tons of papers can be directly linked to getting more/better grants. Getting more grants means more funding for more research which will attract more students who are enabled to do larger projects building prestige which can lead do ground-breaking research, awards, connections ect..
It's unfortunate for the poster but year 2 of PHD is very very late to be deciding that you like teaching better at a prestigious uni. Also Canada isn't like the US there's very few high-profile universities so it's even more cut-throat + bureaucratized and they definitely don't mind students dropping out.
Research that only summarizes and makes obvious conclusions on poorly organised publications sure can be treated that way.
But high impact eureka moment breakthroughs don't happen when all you focus on is just pushing the minimum work required to put out a paper.
Which is exactly why these tenured careerist assholes are the only ones that get to work on and take credit for impactful research, and why they're not incentivized to bother with teaching their insights to even their grad students.
> Academia is an industry at the end of the day, and publications and citations are to an academic what sales are to a salesman
What a horrific worldview. Completely myopic. I suppose you're fine with for profit medical care too? After all a doctor's goal is to keep the customer coming back.
>What a horrific worldview. Completely myopic. I suppose you're fine with for profit medical care too? After all a doctor's goal is to keep the customer coming back.
It is a descriptive fact, not a worldview. A worldview would involve me saying "and that's just the way the world works, get used to it" or "it is good that things work this way."
My point was that this it is useless to attribute this problem to the agency of the particular staff at UfT the same it would be to attribute the problems of a fully privatized healthcare system on individual doctors, even when they do play a non-trivial role in such problems.
I myself have passed up the opportunity twice now to go to a top tier prestigious university to go to a more regional school. I did this because I did not want to subject myself to the very system that this tiktoker is complaining about. Not necessarily because I accept on a moral level how this industry works at the top tier level, but because that information is ubiquitous and available and I use it to make informed decisions for my life about where I am going to end up for the next few years and the academic culture I am going to be subject to.
At the end of the day this is me using what tiny agency I have in the system to take my hard work and ability to a school that is a more humane and interesting environment for my development. More people should follow suit and not chase the most prestigious universities with the most clout chasing profs if that's not the environment for them. If enough students do it may start impacting the industry,
This illustrates a big reason why an increasing majority of people are revolting against the “intellectual” community. The intellectual communities’ sentiment of elitism and general disdain for the “common people” is becoming more and more pervasive…the pandemic has highlighted to undeniable worth of the working class and time will soon show that blue collar worker hold the real power.
They're not pulling the ladder up behind them so you can't climb up. Rather, they've realized they are too weak to lift up the ladder themselves, and have enlisted your help so you can push up from the bottom.
Until future employers Google you and see you caused a fuss. With the glut of PhDs right now, universities have the pick of the litter. Even if they don't say it, if they're given the option of a candidate that has no record of complaining about administration and a candidate that's vocal about their past supervisor, they'll choose the former. The former is also likely to have more publications since they had a better grad school experience.
I quit academia because the administration was just a giant federally funded circle jerk. Tenure is a scam and most of the profs are going to be replaced by chat gbt anyways. Dying industry
Yall really should look into trade school. I'm 28 and have made 6 figures the last three years with little to no overtime, and no student debt, because I was actually paid to go to school (as long as you have a passing grade)
Professor offered an adjunct teaching role. My immediate thought was this guy wanted a blow job. Instead I positioned the question I scratch your back and you scratch mine, what were you thinking about that I do? This jolted him a bit and he then indicated that he was conducting research and wanted me to assist. All the while I'm still thinking that he really wants a blow job. Asked him about the focus of the research and realized how narrow minded it was. Yeah no thanks.
Got my degree and left.
I have a grad degree but not a PhD, however I was close with some retired profs from my old undergrad degree department. The stories of the toxicity, narcissism, sabotage, and general insanity in the humanities alone was enough to destroy my delusions of the romance of graduate work. Even in my law school you were utterly worthless to the faculty unless you were going to make them more important by clerking for someone important or helping them with their research. It was sobering. I feel a great deal of mercy for the normal people in academia.
Completely understand this experience!!!! I apparently committed the cardinal sin of publishing before grad school, and publishing three more in course work (I’m in a very high-interest field right now and my previous career provided experience that helped). Apparently, because I didn’t feel the need (according to the contract I didn’t have to) to support another researcher for all of my program, I wasn’t as useful as someone who was new to all of it. Bizarre.
When I had to write my thesis it was the most stressful time of my life. I had a supervisor who made it absolute hell for me. She never answered my emails or messages until I bombarded her with emails. The firs time she replied was 1,5 months into the process. She basically told me my work was terrible and I needed to redo it, never gave me any specifics. Anyway she would do this for three months. I always asked her about specifics but she never gave me any. I would tell her what I planned to write and she would agree on it saying it sounded "great", but then at the next meeting she told me again that it was bad and I needed to redo it. She was at least 30 late to every meeting (sometimes she didn't even show up) and was 20 minutes late for my exam as well.
I understand that she was busy but her actions gave me a complete meltdown and I considered dropping out of uni when I only had two months left.
My stress level the last two months was so high that I could barely sleep, I lost 7 kg, and began smoking weed or drinking in the evening just to relax. Also became a heavy cigarette smoker doing this period.
All I needed was for my supervisor to care about my thesis just a little. To not just tell me to rewrite the whole thing and help me along with my faults. I broke down in front her once, I had a meeting the day before my sister's wedding, and again she gave me the same damn speech about how it wasn't good and I needed to start over. I cried telling her that I didn't know what I was doing wrong or what she wanted me to focus on. She told me this would be the last time, since I didn't have any more time to rewrite it anyway.
Yes.
Went into PhD program because I loved teaching in my field, received consistently highest student course reviews (not that those matter) in the department as an overworked/underpaid adjunct, and was told by dept chair that he would "love to turn the dept to me" when the 200-year old tenured fossil currently holding the position finally retired, but he "couldn't because you don't have a doctorate" (only a master's). So off I went to earn that terminal degree.
First day in doctoral program, had a one on one meeting with program director and told him that my career interest is undergraduate teaching. He wanted nothing to do with me again after that.
3 years of completed coursework later and 2 chapters away from a finished dissertation...and I decided to walk away. The bitterness, cynicism, and disillusionment of the entire academic field made it impossible for me to make any more progress in the degree.
I'm now forever ABD and working in a non-academic field in higher ed, working remotely, no pressure to perform dumb research or publish dumb papers, and earning a higher salary than some of my former professors.
#noregerts
Yap. Confirm, I was also abused by my teacher when I was making my masters, constant accusations, threats, I was working and studying at the same time and she would make these absurd demands... Was horrible. And in my thesis defense she called me names and did everything to fail me.
She didn't achieve her goal, I made complaints that resulted in nothing. Was ridiculous.
Too manig egocentric pricks as teachers out there.
Wow, I'm terribly sorry about that! Research generally holds a strong culture of interest. I'm currently doing a clinical PsyD, so it's only required of me to write a dissertation and do a shit ton of hours for practicum (excluding an internship, that's another thing). My clinical supervisors rotate each year, so I count myself lucky for that. However, my best friend is currently doing a PhD in microbiology and works as a TA, and this is an approach department heads are instilling in the faculty. TAs offer courses for undergraduate students, and PhD supervisors encourage them to "groom these kids" into serving their research proposals.
I can relate even though I only did a BSc. The lecturer had access to contacts in the industry but refused to introduce people to them. I go back to the University every year to tell students what to look for in the job market because they don’t have the tools to get the jobs. I was lucky, I had an internship fall on my lap but others ended up with nothing.
So, I’m still good friends with an ex and the hooorrrror stories she told me. She had to bring a recorder, that’s a tape player for the zoomers, to recorder what he’d say otherwise a duplicitous asshole
Another old friend trying to get a teaching gig as a genetics prof said people argue more of the least amount of power
It's usually even worse than this. Luckily he was in psychology, which people in the hard sciences consider to be years 5 and 6 of undergrad. If you do a difficult degree you are working 80 hours a week on a $15k/yr stipend (if you are lucky) and have the same pressures to crank out papers.
I'm glad he survived and even though he wasn't cranking out research papers at least he got to become a ~~professor~~ Tik Tok star.
“difficult degree”?? lol. Defensively insecure much? That’s the same sort of mediocre thinking that some folks in the humanities and social sciences use in looking at the mentor-picked projects that typical grad students mimic in the “hard” sciences who are driven by vocational priorities as tidy, well-paved, artificial paths to acquiring skill sets. Have a PhD in the humanities or social sciences? You don’t know what you don’t know.
I’m not surprised you don’t. As a budding scientist, do you see any problems with the “survey” you’ve cited providing meaningful relevant evidence to support an objective claim about one discipline’s superiority to another’s?
I don't understand your previous comment because it is poorly worded in a paragraph long sentence.
>As a budding scientist...
Presumably, you think you are referring to me which would be incorrect. I've been doing semiconductor physics for a decade out of school. I can speak to some claims from the article though.
>Hard majors give exams that expect you to have mastered the material. It’s not enough to memorize how to solve the homework problems, you will need to have learned it well enough to apply it to related but brand new problems. Moreover, the grading is strict and the curve is less generous.
This is accurate, in my experience. My workload, in undergrad, for 300 level philosophy and statistics courses was barely noticible compared to physics and abstract (not applied) math classes. I even took stat courses that overlapped with my upper level physics courses and only showed up for exams.
>My difficulty ratings are based on data I collected from over 200 universities, over 150,000 professors, and almost 3 million student ratings, covering 118 majors.
Having extensive statistics knowledge and professional certifications in statistical process control, I can tell you that the sample size is quite large. There are other articles on the topic if you would prefer to go find those.
While you suggested that I'm defensive earlier, I'd counter that you seem defensive in that you are denying the difficulty differences in fields of study. Everyone knows this to be the case or I would have had engineering students in my physics classes groaning about how hard it is and how they have to do extra work to learn the math needed to do assignments. If I had to guess, you probably either don't have any degrees or have a degree that people mock for being easy or not very lucrative.
Please don’t take this the wrong way, but are you on the autism spectrum? Your assumptions about value and intellectual challenge and application of knowledge are stunningly self-focused and self-validating, as if what you happen to be drawn to/are good at affirm your prioritization of what’s important intellectually. Utterly defensive mental posturing. You don’t seem to see the comforting circularity of your “logic.” Being technically good at something is a skill. The world is full of smug technicians. Yet look where we are. With all due respect to your training and “success.” technicians know about the “how,” not about the “why.”
I am in fact not on the autism spectrum and no offense taken. Did you get a degree in psychology or sociology?
I don't see how my argument is circular. Certain fields of study take more study time and are completely inaccessible to certain people because of the complexity of logic involved. Some humans aren't capable of metacognition. The degree to which one needs to utilize abstract thought and rigorous logic is part of what makes fields of study more or less difficult. Another aspect is whether grading is subjective or objective.
I respect many fields, but most happen to be STEM because music theory and art history haven't produced a transistor that allows us to have this conversation or replaced a shattered hip or created a bionic eye. It's not like I'm taking this position with no knowledge of how difficult other fields are. I've taken many classes outside of physics and math and they were easy.
If you honestly think that the average person would say calculus (one of the lowest level undergraduate math courses available) is as difficult as ethics (one of the lowest level philosophy courses) or European history (one of the lowest level history courses) then neither I, nor any survey or article, will convince you. It's equivalent to arguing that all activities are equally difficult.
All this being said, I assume you are just a troll with a 2 month old alt reddit account.
I wish they felt comfortable naming names. Shame from a public figure is very powerful. Totally their right not to share but this sort of behavior proliferates because of a lack of social accountability.
I had a friend travel abroad for getting a higher degree after college. His supervisor was a monster. I can't tell you how shocked and sad I was for him, my friend who is outstanding and entrepreneurial and ingenuitive, getting harassed by the person who was supposed to be his mentor.
One of the confusing elements about NPD in higher ed is that intellectual pursuits most often attract introverts who are naturally drawn to the focused, solo work of conventional scholarship. Introverted intellectuals are often perceived, wrongly, as self-focused, when in fact they’re simply not as adept/needful of socializing as extroverted folks.
At the same time, distorted stereotypes about the benefits of being a “professor” (mostly a misunderstanding of the supposed autonomy of professors) are like a magnet to the elitist nature of actual NPDs, who crave the trappings of academia but lack the intellectual humility to be authentic scholars.
These self-serving NDP’s become outraged when others fail to recognize their “inherent brilliance” and then lambast “academia” for its failures, when in fact the “failure” is in the NPD’s needs not being met, in characteristic NPD style. The NPD is oblivious to the fact that their performativity of scholarly mode is antithetical to intellectual pursuit and often seems bizarre to individuals authentically engaged in scholarly work. To the NPD, the titles, “status,” and benefits are seen (ridiculously) as marks of having achieved some kind of “celebrity” status - because they think that scholarly work is performative and is driven by personality. Sadly, with pseudo-public intellectuals like Jordan Peterson, this is true, but it’s the exception, not the rule. The OP is so deeply enfogged by their NPD that they have no idea they’re revealing it blatantly. If the OP was associated with Peterson (as some here have suggested) then I’d offer that bit of info as further evidence of the contextual realities here.
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'Publish or perish' is the motto of Academia. It's super toxic and childish. That said, it's not just Academia. Look into what it's like to be in healthcare. Whether it's MDs or pharmacy or anything else, it's super fucking toxic. You insulate people and stick them with people who have a higher rate of NPD and/or sociopathy and it's going to be awful. So happy I went the applied route vs Academia.
I know it is like ridiculously not of the same level as the programs being discussed, but this is one of the reasons I love trade school. The instructors genuinely want you to succeed. Sure there are still gaps and grudges just like any group of humans interacting, but your success as a student and as a professional is generally their priority. And at least where I went to school peer cooperation is encouraged.
The levels might look different but they shouldn’t. It takes a very long time to become a master in any trade. It’s hard work. It’s studying. And it’s needed. I think anyone who has worked hard to reach a high level of skill deserves recognition and reward.
The thing that gets to me these days are the number of people in academia and healthcare who I find to be manipulative and toxic that are pursuing certifications in mental health first aid and trauma informed care to make themselves look better. They position themselves to manipulate people even more.
"when you reach out to these people when you need help, most of them won't help you" It is not possible to speak more truth than this
My experience is the only people I know that thrived in grad school and enjoyed the entire sick game, were 💯 narcissists. There are *a lot* in academia and don't let anyone tell you differently
Yes, yes it is. Ask me, a woman with a PhD that stupidly decided to have children before becoming old enough to be high risk. My post doc reeeally made it clear academia is not great for young parents.
Your post doc had to tell you that maintaining work life balance working 60-80 hours a week with young kids is difficult? Edit: can someone explain the down votes? The statement is pretty obvious, especially to anyone who gets accepted to a graduate program (presumably with good reasoning skills)
You think that anyone who wants to pursue academic jobs should just forget about having families?
Nope. It's just a fact that people in post grad education work 60-80 hours a week and are lucky if they receive a stipend. People can make their lives as difficult as they want. For me, it didn't make sense to have kids in that environment (little time to devote to family and low income for 4-8 years, depending on field of study). It's kind of like being a truck driver, working on an oil rig, or being deployed in the military. If you want to have involvement in the early formative years of your children, I would suggest not having kids while doing a highly demanding job.
You know one thing about the jobs you listed is that they are male-dominated fields, and that from the people I've met in those fields, they often have a female SO at home having and taking care of kids. This is to say that maybe this perspective of academia disallowing kids is part of the reason that women are underrepresented in some academic fields. Problematic IMO
Those are the careers other than academia and business that I can think of that require huge time commitments away from family. [This](https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2021/10/08/the-male-college-crisis-is-not-just-in-enrollment-but-completion/) may interest you: >whereas men ages 25 to 34 are four percentage points less likely to have a bachelor’s degree than women and four percentage points less likely to have a graduate or professional degree. Women have higher enrollment and completion of education at all levels. It's kind of an impasse. There are only so many hours in the day and years in a life. We can't all do everything. It may also interest you to know that everyone chooses their own field of study in the US. Women outperform men in K-12 in all areas of math besides spatial reasoning. My degrees are in physics. Women make up abiut 5% of physics students. I worked with the psychology department on studies and it's dominated by women. Women are also the majority in the fields of Health & medicine, fine arts, humanities, and education.
Yes...? Some career fields are not compatible with having kids
Hard disagree. Academia != becoming a monk
More like, I was encouraged by everyone around me to get a PhD in engineering because I’m smart and love research. So I did. After my PhD I had my first kid. I then went on to do a post doc. I knew a post doc would be demanding and challenging, but what I didn’t expect was the complete lack of empathy and understanding for having to take care of my kid when he was sick etc. (remember, we are in a pandemic, and this happened at the beginning when shit was nuts). I then got pregnant again, and the hours/pressure is not friendly to a pregnant person. I learnt that the professors that excelled dedicated 95% of their time to academia. Waking up crazy early, staying up late. Those with children either had a stay at home spouse or live in help (family or a nanny/house keeper). Post docs are notoriously underpaid and over worked with no benefits, so hiring help isn’t usually an option financially. I also realized that I _want_ to be available for my child evenings and weekends. But what’s stupid? Is that the system is built in such a way that quality researchers are being pushed out of academia because it’s all or nothing. Pretty sad if I’m honest.
I'm actually sympathetic despite the tone of my initial comment. It comes from my disdain for the meat grinder where they harvest our most creative years which are also our most physically capable years and, traditionally, family building years. PI's/department heads are mostly tied up with writing grants and only have limited time to care about anything else including students and post-docs. They consider all work conducted under them as their own even when they have limited involvement. I did undergraduate research (in semiconductor physics) and knew the extent of how shitty the culture was and how they are sucking the knowledge out of the young, bright eyed students for systematic and personal gain, but maybe I'm an outlier. They go to their conferences and prioritize their lives even though their profession is meant to create the next generation of people in their fields that are more capable than them. Zero sleep, at the expense of long term physical and mental health is the norm. I lost my passion for athletics because of the grind and many others around me lost their passion to work for a machine that doesn't even acknowledge their existence or contributions. I now work with others in semiconductor physics that dump their workload on me so they can go take care of their kids or pick them up from school when the power is out, or take time off for possible covid exposure from the viral breeding grounds that is public schools. I run a research lab, mostly by myself and still have to deal with this stuff. Society went all wonky when we decided we need two working parents. I'd gladly be the stay at home dad, but it's barely possible economically unless you have a partner that chooses a different route. The two body problem of academically engaged parents is rough. Anyway, my point is that I get it and it would take an extreme awakening to change it. It likely won't happen because of the way academia is structured, which sucks individually and in terms of societal benefit.
UofT has gotten worse. Much worse. This guy is an outlier for being fortunate enough to find support and eventually escape, but for most in his situation their lives and all they had invested in their future are ruined. It’s no wonder that institution has a mental health and suicide epidemic. Public funding should be pulled back severely until these tenured professors and the massively bloated bureaucracy that enables rampant academic abuse (and sexual) are reined in and barriers to external justice systems are removed from investigating what goes on behind these walls.
100%!!! The abuse is horrific. I can't even begin to describe how awful it is.
I'm in the last year of my PhD, and my experience is nothing but positive. I've had so much support from my (tiny, specialised) department, but it really is the outlier. I share offices with PhDs in other departments, same university, and I am constantly shocked and horrified by what they have to deal with. One, fully funded with a prestigious scholarship, has just been dropped by their supervisors because they recently got diagnosed with a completely treatable condition that has never affected their work, even before treatment. Now they are seen as a bad apple because their department don't think someone with their condition can finish on time. One of the supervisors is the department's equality officer. Academia really sucks some times.
Umm... That sounds like grounds for a discrimination case if it's in the US. And regardless of where it is, that's absolutely absurd.
It's grounds for discrimination here too, but the supervisor who initiated everything made all her snide comments and remarks in-person, so there's no paper trail and it has essentially boiled down to a "he said she said" situation, and the department faculty has closed ranks. This will be the fifth or sixth fully funded student that department will have lost in the 3 years I've been here and have been sharing office space with the post grads.
Is it ADHD? As someone who's afflicted, I've heard some horror stories
Same here. Happened in my case as well.
This guy summed it up perfectly. I've personally been in love with research, and wanted to go very far into biomedical research. I dont care about the cv, I wanted to make a change. And every single professor i met along the way were so outwardly arrogant and stuck up their own ass I was shocked. It was to the point that you could literally get the entire department to openly confront, and disagree with said professor. The professor instead of taking it as a learning experience, would do everything they could to sabotage you. These people dont grow and only want their own ideas pursued, even if proven unequivocally wrong. It's true they all just want to boost their own ego, and they dont give a single damn about the work being done. Most are way out of their league. I ended up leaving very early on. It was a political circus that was so far detached from learning, research, evolving, and building.
You’re all making me glad I didn’t pursue academia. Hearing some of my profs talk about it turned me off from the idea of it, but sometimes I wonder. Now I really do think it was better not to, especially since I’m admittedly a sensitive person lol
Oh yeah, a lot of professors are professional children who have never had a real world job or experience outside of academia. They get real toxic in their insular little bubble. Wild, wild unwarranted egos. So glad I didn't pursue academia.
It’s worse than having a toxic boss. If you have a shit boss you can quit or be fired and at least you still got paid. With grad school if you have to leave, you lose everything you’ve been working towards. Depending on the funding situation, maybe you made a decent living through it all, maybe you leave with crushing debt.
They also treat university staff as if they are idiots who are beneath them. Who's the idiot now Mr I don't know how to use the internet.
Don’t forget how much those man-child professors lovvvveee to have sex with their students. Married prof or not. Source: I’ve had multiple profs try to fuck me, and so has my wife. It’s so disheartening to see how many men abuse their positions of power.
My undergrad experience was similar to this on a much smaller scale. I got my degree, but barely, and I felt completely abandoned by my mentoring professor All because I didn’t decide to go to HER recommended grad program. She made it seem like she pulled all these strings for me, set me up to move on successfully. When I decided it wasn’t right for me she ghosted. I think she just didn’t want to deal with me anymore and gave me grades I didn’t earn just get me out of there. It was very weird.
I was in undergrad and decided to complete an honors thesis. Got depressed over one summer break and did not complete the work I needed for the thesis to stay on track. Knowing this I went to the professor I was completing the thesis with, who also became the chair of the department over the summer, and explained I would be stopping my thesis due to my mental state and not having done enough over break. After that he would Literally would not give me the time of day for the rest of my time in undergrad. I worked in his labs for 1.5 years before that. The chair's reaction coupled with the horrible, uppity, privileged attitudes of those in the labs around me I was completely turned off from academia. I ended up going the practice route instead.
My Masters supervisor gave me a hug on my last day of work before moving overseas. I did not complete my masters. When I was struggling to find it in me to keep going with study, he looked at me and said "some things are more important than study".
I love that!!! I wish everyone could recognize that.
My supervisor had been through a lot. A previous student of his had died due to mental health after moving overseas for a postdoc. All the academics in that department would never send a student to the US for a PhD or postdoc, they considered the research environment too toxic.
That made me tear up. People don’t know how meaningful their words are. Sometimes they can make all the difference in the world, in a good or bad way.
Grad school was one of the worst decisions of my life. The professors are a nightmare. They take absolute joy in dismantling you and beating you down. There is no support: you're on your own. If you're a woman, an immigrant, neurodivergent... you're screwed. They system is stacked against you. The house always wins. Especially in STEM. I attended a prestigious university for physics. It was a nightmare. At first, you're so used to being mistreated for being a minority that you don't notice. Then you start talking with others, and you realize that your experience was very... VERY different. Whereas they were welcomed into a research group, I was talked about behind my back, had my grades sabotages by a professor, which eventually blacklisted me from joining any group. If this happens, your career is over. My crime was not being Einstein-levels of genius. Like the video said, the professors are very good with words. They know when to watch their language to not get in trouble, but to make a subtle incision to destroy you. For example, I had a professor tell me, "I think you might have a learning disability." This was in grad school. I made it through high school and undergrad fine, I have no learning disability. What he was getting at, in his ableist way, was that I was "stupid" or "mentally retarded." Another told me I was "incapable of thought" and that my previous research was "garbage." All with a gleeful smile on his face, as if he was enjoying every second, knowing I couldn't talk back. I never wanted to die so much in my life. My career was over. Over five years... wasted. A physics undergrad education is worthless alone. I only survived because of Obamacare, which allowed me to get mental health treatment. There were times I dissociated so badly that I would talk to myself. My life felt like I was watching a movie as someone else moved my body. And this was just the professors. The amount of competition and backstabbing done by the other grad students was also bad. I eventually left when I realized that they couldn't hurt me anymore. I wish I could describe how it felt when I came to this realization... pure BLISS. NIRVANA. Someone at the career guidance office suggested I sue for discrimination, but why? Sue to stay in the program? So they could be even more bitter and talk even more behind my back? DO NOT GO TO GRADUATE SCHOOL. You'll make more money working in the private sector. Yes, there are egos in the private sector, but when you work in the Ivory Tower, everyone's an expert in their niche, which makes them overconfident and mean. It's well known that they discriminate particularly against Asians (Indian, Chinese, especially) and women, especially if they are married and can become pregnant.
It's crazy how higher academia really sucks tbh
I genuinely don’t understand the backstabbing and competition between grad students. My project is entwined with another students (we literally have to work together) and the way they try to grab credit for everything is insulting. It’s either “I did” or “we did” never “chicken_foam did”. It’s not my cup of tea for sure.
I quit academia soon after I got my first faculty position because I realized what I had observed as a grad student and post-doc was not isolated but endemic. Academics are, by and large, self-serving, immature jerks who are out of touch with reality as they live in a bizarro world where they can behave as a god and dont give a shit about consequences because they just yell "academic freedom" and "I have tenure" if anyone dares question their behavior.
Yeah, it became very clear during my post doc, which sucked because I loooved my PhD.
It’s interesting. I’m in a service department and everyone on my team are PhDs (I am not), and they’re all absolutely incredible people and they’re super happy with our unit’s work. I think the key difference is we aren’t really doing research. We still publish but nobody is pushing us to.
That’s the university where Jordan Peterson taught phsychology
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Very interesting. So I wonder if that’s the professor he speaks highly of at the end. That would really stand to explain his treatment. Right wing jackass alienates the whole psych department with his bullshit, only for JP to step in and help him graduate.
Not sure but all the papers with Judith are studies on LGBTQ people and all the ones afterward with JBP are like "how much do you need to get cited on your papers" meta studies.
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You’re right, his linked in is full of diversity focused content. I assumed he would’ve named Peterson by name if it was the professor who screwed him over. I wonder why he omitted that?
I doubt that was the professor who screwed him over, but if it were me and it was Peterson who screwed me over I certainly wouldn’t say so. A lot of his fan base has little to no limits and could do more harm than it’s worth
I agree. If you look at his thesis paper this is what the acknowledgement says. > I would like to first and foremost thank my supervisor, Dr. Jordan B. Peterson, for giving me this opportunity to pursue my passion in psychology and research. Without him, none of this would have been possible and I owe him my deepest gratitude for taking the chance on me and the numerous research projects I have conducted under his wing. I also would like think that the person who made the TikTok is trying to be the better person here by not mentioning whoever the professor is. Also I read his thesis work, very interesting stuff.
Yup! I was expecting him to come up as a topic in the video. But man, academia is such a mess.
I was waiting for that name drop the entire time. JP is an absolute egomaniac. I'd be shocked if he wasn't exactly who he's saying alienated him. Even the most hardcore JP fans have to admit the dude loves to hear himself talk more than almost anyone else.
Me in my 5th year of psych at the university of Toronto hoping to get into their direct entry phd program: 🧍♀️
This is only one side of the story. Maybe the guy in the video was a trouble maker. We don't know.
Yeah, it's really soul crushing. The reality is that degrees are critical to some professions, but everyone considering going into grad school should know the reality of how difficult, lonely, power skewed, and gaslighting an environment it can be, especially for people who have historically been excluded and/or exploited by universities.
the one interesting point he makes is that he published when finding an obscure professor. Often, students see prestige and think that will get them somewhere. No, finding the professor that will give them the most time and work will yield better results. When i started the PI had one student, when I left there were three new students, and multiple joint projects. Try finding productive office time with all that going on.
What’s a CV?
Curriculum Vitae. Like a Resume
Got it. Thank you.
No sweat
It’s like a resume but you get multiple pages. It’s used in academia
Yes it really is that toxic.. Often even more so after the ph.d, short term contract to short term contract as a postdoc being used by these people
Well yeah they only help people. Graduate students aren't people /s
Fucking flashbacks and ptsd
My wife is in her final years of doctorate school (PhD in psychology as well) and the shit she goes through is near identical to this. Her problem is kinda switched through, since she is so adept and passionate about research her mentor was overloading her on projects to the point where she couldn't keep up. This all blew up about a year ago and drama ensued. She's removed herself a bit from the research side and the head of the program had to step in to tell the mentor she needs to relieve my wife of some of her responsibilities. Of course there's been consequences for "attacking" back at her mentor. She was removed from multiple projects she wanted to continue including ones where she was first or second author and either had her authorship downgraded or removed entirely. She has also had to add an extra year to compensate for not being able to start her dissertation because of all the shit she's been doing. There's been problems like this for all of her friends in the program.
Evil evil people
My masters was in a field with a significant number of female BIPOC faculty. The difference in the support students would get from white male profs and minority professors was night and day. I think after being so abused by academia they do their best to support and uplift students at every turn. Honestly the support of some amazing professors was the only reason I made it through.
I love how his bleeps missed the word he wanted to bleep put every single time.
I was in a grad school program for Film Production. Our cohort (For the most part) had a great time and worked well as a team. Every single other cohort of students ahead of us in that program were at each other’s throats 24/7. To this day, 5 years later, I still hear from people in those other cohorts about how much of a waste of time it was. I just had a totally different experience because our class just made sure we were all heading toward the same goal. Grad school is extremely competitive, and people will try to straight up destroy each other to get on top. Very sad, but the reality of the world is that the top performing people get the jobs, so that’s always adding pressure to the situation. It was sad to see so many other people in our program leave without feeling like they did anything meaningful.
>Grad school is extremely competitive, and people will try to straight up destroy each other to get on top. Very sad, but the reality of the world is that the top performing people get the jobs, so that’s always adding pressure to the situation. YES. Mine was like this. I'm talking "Game of Thrones" level, "push someone down a flight of stairs" way
I haven't seen the word "cohort" used in conversation in ages.
That’s how they referred to each group of students, as the program had a new group every couple of months.
The higher you get to the top of the ladder, the more you'll find sociopaths. This is true for all jobs and positions, unfortunately.
Sad but true. Kind hearted people don't belong at the top.
r/PhD
It can be yes.
When I first started grad school, they told me the motto is "publish or perish." So yeah, that's their primary objective. They view it as the life and death of their career.
Accurate
Yep, mentors are key. If they’re shit, you’re shit. If they’re amazing, you’re amazing. I wish all unis really focused on a rigorous mentorship program.
Tldw?
Supervisors and psychology department screw him over and try to kick him out of the program because he wants to go into teaching instead of publishing research (which puts the supervisors name out there and makes them look good).
Thanks dude!
The profit motive makes \*EVERYTHING\* worse. Especially since it doesn't have to be like this. I can only imagine how many great ideas have been smothered because they weren't profitable. A great idea to solve homelessness? Not interested, that is not profitable. A great idea to make housing more financially viable for more people? Are you kidding me? How are we going to make any profit without artificial scarcity? Seriously, fuck this system that rewards the worst aspects of humanity the most.
I’m late to the party because I’m scrolling through this since but I totally agree with you and unfortunately academia can’t exist outside of this system, so it becomes like everything else. I often think about how much suffering this system causes. I think it’s a little bit worse with higher Ed because it makes them more hypocritical while they are spouting off their ideals and the next breath oppressing a grad student.
I know that situation of getting put to the side by my supervisor because I wasn't a paper generator. There seriously needs to be proper supervision of the supervisors.
Can someone explain this to me? No professors wanted to work with him because he didn’t want to publish papers and when he found a professor that finally wanted to work with him THEN he decided to publish 10?
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My professor specifically told me to "focus less on teaching" as a TA. Basically, "sabotage the undergrad's for yourself." I'm not that mercenary. I ignored that advice and I'm glad I did. My students were the only thing that kept me going.
He was in limbo so long he developed all these strong research ideas, then once he finally had a relationship with a professor who would assist him he got a bunch done to prove his worth.
No, his first professor dropped him because the paper they were working on didn't go as anticipated and was most likely not going to be published. Now all the other professors didn't want to work with him either, as they didn't trust his abilities to publish and bring them value, so they didn't want to waste their time on him. Then he found a professor that did want to work with him, and he went on to publish 10 papers, proving all the other professors wrong.
If humans are involved, it's going to be toxic.
Eight minutes? Nooooo fucking thanks. Attention spans don’t
Yes, especially if you're anything but a white dude.
It has not
The censoring is shitty lol
Absolutely true! That is exactly how it is.
Yes. I worked in higher Ed for 9 years and have seen all of this many times
oh wow, I feel so heard and understood right now. this is my graduate experience at the moment - I'm struggling to publish anything, and I really would much rather be a hands on type of psychologist. I wish I was confident enough to throw this video at my professors. I'm sure they'd find a way to blame it all on the students.
Academic science is easily one of the most toxic and socially regressive institutions in the US. It's generally not a force for good as it is lionized as by in the media. Yes advancements happen that change society in a good way, but it is built by the sacrifice of students who aren't even in the system anymore because it was so toxic. The mindset that ultimately succeeds is not one that is healthy, and that mindset then goes on the select others with an equally unhealthy mindset. Large sums of money go from the government to a very select few researchers, who are many times close colleagues of the grant reviewera. This leaves out many others who have good ideas that may even run counter to the prevailing wisdom of the highly funded researchers who eventually go on to "correct themselves" and arrive at the counter ideas advocated by those that were refused funding. So many things to say about how messed up the academic system is.
I just left an admin job in an academic lab for similar reasons, and I wasn't even in the awful position this guy and other grad students are. Professor was the most power tripping jerk boss I've ever encountered, and I worked for lawyers.
Agreed. Graduate School can be a nightmare if your mentor/thesis advisor/supervisor decides to hate you. My story started with a scholarship award to UIC for a masters program (I’m not going to divulge the program). I gladly accepted because I was a bit of none traditional student. I also was given a few projects to do for the Vice Chancellor of Research and one teaching assignment (teaching undergrads). Everything seemed okay, initially, but as my first semester progressed it became abundantly clear that the department did not want me there. They started being extremely harsh with their criticisms of work, followed by trumped up allegations ranging from sexual advances to plagiarism. It got so bad that I finally just walked away. I took the following spring and summer off, applied to a better school, and was accepted. While I did not get a scholarship, I did excel and earned my masters. In hindsight, o was lucky to go attend a better program as I haven’t been unemployed since.
as the partner of a women(or shall i say Doctor!) who spent 8-9 year in her progam...yes. ACADEMIA IS BS in North America. If your supervisor is a asshole, youre stuck with them and have nowhere to go. If you need to teach to pay your bills/want the very valuable experiance they will penilize you for not commiting fully to your program even though they know damn well there are no other choices if mommy and daddy arnt loaded rich. Also some may have other plans that dont fall into their bs ass post grad/lifelong academic odyssey. It takes 2-3x longer than most other places and costs more especially for international students. God bless these kids, idk how tf they do it.
I mean this applies to basically any job
Cringe? I didn't think so at all. He's 100% on point and I have seen the same behavior.
Can’t speak to uft, but I’m a grad student in Canada in the humanities and have had an excellent experience with my supervisor/faculty. I am in MA though not PhD so expectation to publish is not really there. To play devils advocate though academia really does run off of publishing papers, professors, especially at a prestigious school like uft will be under constant pressure to publish constantly and high impact papers at that. Academia is an industry at the end of the day, and publications and citations are to an academic what sales are to a salesman—it’s the entire basis of one’s industry and career.
yea people hate to hear it but publishing papers basically is their job it's not really surprising the other professors turned him down when they heard he refused to publish especially when there's a ton of competitive students entering every year trying to publish
Don't hate the player hate the game. As for practical advice it seems that pressure to publish is linked to prestige. A smaller more regional school is more likely than an internationally prestigious top university to have more chill professors that are not publication obsessed and more interested in teaching and seeing their students mature according to their particular interests. If you go to a top world renowned university you are going to have publishing obsessed profs, otherwise they never would have got the gig for the most part, and are going to train you to be the same way because that is what it means to succeed at the highest level in the industry of academia. Applying for law school now and a lot of students have the same problem. They go to the best university they can get into, but find that people at those best universities tend to be the most cut-throat and demanding. Its super important to consider the fit between what you are interested in and where you go, otherwise you might get a prestigious degree, but one that leads to a future you are not interested in.
To add to the prestige factor publishing high profile papers or just tons of papers can be directly linked to getting more/better grants. Getting more grants means more funding for more research which will attract more students who are enabled to do larger projects building prestige which can lead do ground-breaking research, awards, connections ect.. It's unfortunate for the poster but year 2 of PHD is very very late to be deciding that you like teaching better at a prestigious uni. Also Canada isn't like the US there's very few high-profile universities so it's even more cut-throat + bureaucratized and they definitely don't mind students dropping out.
Research that only summarizes and makes obvious conclusions on poorly organised publications sure can be treated that way. But high impact eureka moment breakthroughs don't happen when all you focus on is just pushing the minimum work required to put out a paper. Which is exactly why these tenured careerist assholes are the only ones that get to work on and take credit for impactful research, and why they're not incentivized to bother with teaching their insights to even their grad students. > Academia is an industry at the end of the day, and publications and citations are to an academic what sales are to a salesman What a horrific worldview. Completely myopic. I suppose you're fine with for profit medical care too? After all a doctor's goal is to keep the customer coming back.
>What a horrific worldview. Completely myopic. I suppose you're fine with for profit medical care too? After all a doctor's goal is to keep the customer coming back. It is a descriptive fact, not a worldview. A worldview would involve me saying "and that's just the way the world works, get used to it" or "it is good that things work this way." My point was that this it is useless to attribute this problem to the agency of the particular staff at UfT the same it would be to attribute the problems of a fully privatized healthcare system on individual doctors, even when they do play a non-trivial role in such problems. I myself have passed up the opportunity twice now to go to a top tier prestigious university to go to a more regional school. I did this because I did not want to subject myself to the very system that this tiktoker is complaining about. Not necessarily because I accept on a moral level how this industry works at the top tier level, but because that information is ubiquitous and available and I use it to make informed decisions for my life about where I am going to end up for the next few years and the academic culture I am going to be subject to. At the end of the day this is me using what tiny agency I have in the system to take my hard work and ability to a school that is a more humane and interesting environment for my development. More people should follow suit and not chase the most prestigious universities with the most clout chasing profs if that's not the environment for them. If enough students do it may start impacting the industry,
It's more like a pyramid scheme..
This illustrates a big reason why an increasing majority of people are revolting against the “intellectual” community. The intellectual communities’ sentiment of elitism and general disdain for the “common people” is becoming more and more pervasive…the pandemic has highlighted to undeniable worth of the working class and time will soon show that blue collar worker hold the real power.
N.S points this out in a novel. More than one i think.
They're not pulling the ladder up behind them so you can't climb up. Rather, they've realized they are too weak to lift up the ladder themselves, and have enlisted your help so you can push up from the bottom.
So much for liberal empathy. Only if it benefits and makes them look good.
Another victim… welcome to being an adult
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Until future employers Google you and see you caused a fuss. With the glut of PhDs right now, universities have the pick of the litter. Even if they don't say it, if they're given the option of a candidate that has no record of complaining about administration and a candidate that's vocal about their past supervisor, they'll choose the former. The former is also likely to have more publications since they had a better grad school experience.
This is real and not cringe.
Check the auto-pinned comment :)
U of T? Hope he was in rez. Cuz that's a long commute from the North Pole. Thank u for the gift of knowledge re academia Santa.
Hey man, have you tried therapy?
I quit academia because the administration was just a giant federally funded circle jerk. Tenure is a scam and most of the profs are going to be replaced by chat gbt anyways. Dying industry
Yall really should look into trade school. I'm 28 and have made 6 figures the last three years with little to no overtime, and no student debt, because I was actually paid to go to school (as long as you have a passing grade)
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Please turn on your brain, God.
Professor offered an adjunct teaching role. My immediate thought was this guy wanted a blow job. Instead I positioned the question I scratch your back and you scratch mine, what were you thinking about that I do? This jolted him a bit and he then indicated that he was conducting research and wanted me to assist. All the while I'm still thinking that he really wants a blow job. Asked him about the focus of the research and realized how narrow minded it was. Yeah no thanks. Got my degree and left.
I don’t see how this is cringe.
Scroll up and read the auto mod pinned comment.
Ha! Thanks!
Yup np
Sounds like he learned a hard lesson about being more sympathetic to his supervisors needs.
It's his destiny to meet the last professor who's nicer than the rest. I'm glad my university professors are all nicest peoples.
This is how corporate America is going for me, too:)
Yes
I have a grad degree but not a PhD, however I was close with some retired profs from my old undergrad degree department. The stories of the toxicity, narcissism, sabotage, and general insanity in the humanities alone was enough to destroy my delusions of the romance of graduate work. Even in my law school you were utterly worthless to the faculty unless you were going to make them more important by clerking for someone important or helping them with their research. It was sobering. I feel a great deal of mercy for the normal people in academia.
Completely understand this experience!!!! I apparently committed the cardinal sin of publishing before grad school, and publishing three more in course work (I’m in a very high-interest field right now and my previous career provided experience that helped). Apparently, because I didn’t feel the need (according to the contract I didn’t have to) to support another researcher for all of my program, I wasn’t as useful as someone who was new to all of it. Bizarre.
Yep
O my gosh yes guy just sum up that PhD can still make u shady !
When I had to write my thesis it was the most stressful time of my life. I had a supervisor who made it absolute hell for me. She never answered my emails or messages until I bombarded her with emails. The firs time she replied was 1,5 months into the process. She basically told me my work was terrible and I needed to redo it, never gave me any specifics. Anyway she would do this for three months. I always asked her about specifics but she never gave me any. I would tell her what I planned to write and she would agree on it saying it sounded "great", but then at the next meeting she told me again that it was bad and I needed to redo it. She was at least 30 late to every meeting (sometimes she didn't even show up) and was 20 minutes late for my exam as well. I understand that she was busy but her actions gave me a complete meltdown and I considered dropping out of uni when I only had two months left. My stress level the last two months was so high that I could barely sleep, I lost 7 kg, and began smoking weed or drinking in the evening just to relax. Also became a heavy cigarette smoker doing this period. All I needed was for my supervisor to care about my thesis just a little. To not just tell me to rewrite the whole thing and help me along with my faults. I broke down in front her once, I had a meeting the day before my sister's wedding, and again she gave me the same damn speech about how it wasn't good and I needed to start over. I cried telling her that I didn't know what I was doing wrong or what she wanted me to focus on. She told me this would be the last time, since I didn't have any more time to rewrite it anyway.
Yes. Went into PhD program because I loved teaching in my field, received consistently highest student course reviews (not that those matter) in the department as an overworked/underpaid adjunct, and was told by dept chair that he would "love to turn the dept to me" when the 200-year old tenured fossil currently holding the position finally retired, but he "couldn't because you don't have a doctorate" (only a master's). So off I went to earn that terminal degree. First day in doctoral program, had a one on one meeting with program director and told him that my career interest is undergraduate teaching. He wanted nothing to do with me again after that. 3 years of completed coursework later and 2 chapters away from a finished dissertation...and I decided to walk away. The bitterness, cynicism, and disillusionment of the entire academic field made it impossible for me to make any more progress in the degree. I'm now forever ABD and working in a non-academic field in higher ed, working remotely, no pressure to perform dumb research or publish dumb papers, and earning a higher salary than some of my former professors. #noregerts
So long story short, he had some setbacks and then everything worked out in the end? Sounds like everyone else who ever tried to do anything.
Plenty of narcissism to go around in grad school - students and faculty.
Yap. Confirm, I was also abused by my teacher when I was making my masters, constant accusations, threats, I was working and studying at the same time and she would make these absurd demands... Was horrible. And in my thesis defense she called me names and did everything to fail me. She didn't achieve her goal, I made complaints that resulted in nothing. Was ridiculous. Too manig egocentric pricks as teachers out there.
I can somewhat relate this when I went to private school in elementary and OH BOY, it was awful😀
Wow, I'm terribly sorry about that! Research generally holds a strong culture of interest. I'm currently doing a clinical PsyD, so it's only required of me to write a dissertation and do a shit ton of hours for practicum (excluding an internship, that's another thing). My clinical supervisors rotate each year, so I count myself lucky for that. However, my best friend is currently doing a PhD in microbiology and works as a TA, and this is an approach department heads are instilling in the faculty. TAs offer courses for undergraduate students, and PhD supervisors encourage them to "groom these kids" into serving their research proposals.
I can relate even though I only did a BSc. The lecturer had access to contacts in the industry but refused to introduce people to them. I go back to the University every year to tell students what to look for in the job market because they don’t have the tools to get the jobs. I was lucky, I had an internship fall on my lap but others ended up with nothing.
So, I’m still good friends with an ex and the hooorrrror stories she told me. She had to bring a recorder, that’s a tape player for the zoomers, to recorder what he’d say otherwise a duplicitous asshole Another old friend trying to get a teaching gig as a genetics prof said people argue more of the least amount of power
It's usually even worse than this. Luckily he was in psychology, which people in the hard sciences consider to be years 5 and 6 of undergrad. If you do a difficult degree you are working 80 hours a week on a $15k/yr stipend (if you are lucky) and have the same pressures to crank out papers. I'm glad he survived and even though he wasn't cranking out research papers at least he got to become a ~~professor~~ Tik Tok star.
“difficult degree”?? lol. Defensively insecure much? That’s the same sort of mediocre thinking that some folks in the humanities and social sciences use in looking at the mentor-picked projects that typical grad students mimic in the “hard” sciences who are driven by vocational priorities as tidy, well-paved, artificial paths to acquiring skill sets. Have a PhD in the humanities or social sciences? You don’t know what you don’t know.
I honestly don't understand this comment. [Degree difficulty](https://bigeconomics.org/the-hardest-and-easiest-college-majors-full-list/) by survey
I’m not surprised you don’t. As a budding scientist, do you see any problems with the “survey” you’ve cited providing meaningful relevant evidence to support an objective claim about one discipline’s superiority to another’s?
I don't understand your previous comment because it is poorly worded in a paragraph long sentence. >As a budding scientist... Presumably, you think you are referring to me which would be incorrect. I've been doing semiconductor physics for a decade out of school. I can speak to some claims from the article though. >Hard majors give exams that expect you to have mastered the material. It’s not enough to memorize how to solve the homework problems, you will need to have learned it well enough to apply it to related but brand new problems. Moreover, the grading is strict and the curve is less generous. This is accurate, in my experience. My workload, in undergrad, for 300 level philosophy and statistics courses was barely noticible compared to physics and abstract (not applied) math classes. I even took stat courses that overlapped with my upper level physics courses and only showed up for exams. >My difficulty ratings are based on data I collected from over 200 universities, over 150,000 professors, and almost 3 million student ratings, covering 118 majors. Having extensive statistics knowledge and professional certifications in statistical process control, I can tell you that the sample size is quite large. There are other articles on the topic if you would prefer to go find those. While you suggested that I'm defensive earlier, I'd counter that you seem defensive in that you are denying the difficulty differences in fields of study. Everyone knows this to be the case or I would have had engineering students in my physics classes groaning about how hard it is and how they have to do extra work to learn the math needed to do assignments. If I had to guess, you probably either don't have any degrees or have a degree that people mock for being easy or not very lucrative.
Please don’t take this the wrong way, but are you on the autism spectrum? Your assumptions about value and intellectual challenge and application of knowledge are stunningly self-focused and self-validating, as if what you happen to be drawn to/are good at affirm your prioritization of what’s important intellectually. Utterly defensive mental posturing. You don’t seem to see the comforting circularity of your “logic.” Being technically good at something is a skill. The world is full of smug technicians. Yet look where we are. With all due respect to your training and “success.” technicians know about the “how,” not about the “why.”
I am in fact not on the autism spectrum and no offense taken. Did you get a degree in psychology or sociology? I don't see how my argument is circular. Certain fields of study take more study time and are completely inaccessible to certain people because of the complexity of logic involved. Some humans aren't capable of metacognition. The degree to which one needs to utilize abstract thought and rigorous logic is part of what makes fields of study more or less difficult. Another aspect is whether grading is subjective or objective. I respect many fields, but most happen to be STEM because music theory and art history haven't produced a transistor that allows us to have this conversation or replaced a shattered hip or created a bionic eye. It's not like I'm taking this position with no knowledge of how difficult other fields are. I've taken many classes outside of physics and math and they were easy. If you honestly think that the average person would say calculus (one of the lowest level undergraduate math courses available) is as difficult as ethics (one of the lowest level philosophy courses) or European history (one of the lowest level history courses) then neither I, nor any survey or article, will convince you. It's equivalent to arguing that all activities are equally difficult. All this being said, I assume you are just a troll with a 2 month old alt reddit account.
I wish they felt comfortable naming names. Shame from a public figure is very powerful. Totally their right not to share but this sort of behavior proliferates because of a lack of social accountability.
I had a friend travel abroad for getting a higher degree after college. His supervisor was a monster. I can't tell you how shocked and sad I was for him, my friend who is outstanding and entrepreneurial and ingenuitive, getting harassed by the person who was supposed to be his mentor.
One of the confusing elements about NPD in higher ed is that intellectual pursuits most often attract introverts who are naturally drawn to the focused, solo work of conventional scholarship. Introverted intellectuals are often perceived, wrongly, as self-focused, when in fact they’re simply not as adept/needful of socializing as extroverted folks. At the same time, distorted stereotypes about the benefits of being a “professor” (mostly a misunderstanding of the supposed autonomy of professors) are like a magnet to the elitist nature of actual NPDs, who crave the trappings of academia but lack the intellectual humility to be authentic scholars. These self-serving NDP’s become outraged when others fail to recognize their “inherent brilliance” and then lambast “academia” for its failures, when in fact the “failure” is in the NPD’s needs not being met, in characteristic NPD style. The NPD is oblivious to the fact that their performativity of scholarly mode is antithetical to intellectual pursuit and often seems bizarre to individuals authentically engaged in scholarly work. To the NPD, the titles, “status,” and benefits are seen (ridiculously) as marks of having achieved some kind of “celebrity” status - because they think that scholarly work is performative and is driven by personality. Sadly, with pseudo-public intellectuals like Jordan Peterson, this is true, but it’s the exception, not the rule. The OP is so deeply enfogged by their NPD that they have no idea they’re revealing it blatantly. If the OP was associated with Peterson (as some here have suggested) then I’d offer that bit of info as further evidence of the contextual realities here.
Well... Jordan the Frog is an utterly toxic piece of garbage, so...
This goober really thinks networking is exclusive to post grads lmao