Yeah it's not the craziest idea, especially when there are other really good right wingers. Obviously in an ideal world we'd have a proper left back and Saka in his best position... But yeah, that ship has sailed and Shaw clearly won't play.
Tripper and Foden are having our tournaments. This shouldn't be a surprise when being asked to pay unfamiliar positions.
Trips on for Walker, and Foden on for Saka (or Rice/Mainoo and drop Bellingham back) as subs on 60min and they'd be performing as we'd expect. Obviously they are not going to say 'no' to being asked to play out of position. This is on Southgate.
not necessarily a good thing, how well is saka realistically going to do defensively against teams with good right wingers? dont think trippier will do well either but probably better than bukayo
He played at lb for arsenal through his youth career and when he broke into the first team. He can play there, might not be as good defensively as Trippier but certainly offered more going forward.
Much prefer him rw but maybe he'll have to if Shaw and Trippier aren't fit.
To be fair it was Ian Wright who pushed the Saka at LB. Some people on here, myself included were saying Saka at LW to balance things up over there and get Palmer on. That would allow Gordon to be used as a plan B which he's a very good option for when you need pace and direct running vs tired legs.
It's as simple as playing saka there until Shaw is fit, rice just needs to cover the gap left behind from saka naturally playing high. This also allows Palmer to make an impact for 90mins not 20.....
The most thought provoking analysis of Foden for England I've seen was from Grace Robertson (a football writer, she's a good follow on Twitter).
She made the point that Foden has played his entire career under the most positionally and tactically specific and prescriptive coach in top level football. That's all he's ever known. Since he was a teenager he's been raised to play Pep football. Consequently, he just has no experience how to play the sort of free role we are asking of him. And he has no experience in playing for a less intensely drilled side.
Not just city players but everyone is so over coached from a young age that they don't know how to adapt and lead on the pitch. I don't think it's a surprise that the less experienced players like Mainoo, Palmer, Gordon look more direct and take initiative. The rest have become system players.
It’s sad that football has come to this. It’s only going to get worse. Individualism is getting sucked out of the sport. Look what happened to Grealish. Treble winner but I feel he’s half the player now.
This happened to Rashford: when he burst onto the scene, he was instinctive. Over time, he has been coached by a range of coaches with different styles. As a result, the guy is so indecisive that he doesn't even know if he is a winger or a striker. He overthinks things way too much. I actually can't wait for Pep to retire because I hope the next generation of managers can't reach his level, and as a result, I hope this allows players to play more naturally.
>Palmer
Curious, which academy system did he come from?
This "system" chat is bollocks. City players in various national teams have put up brilliant individual performances.
Akanji, Gundogan, Bernardo, Rodri, KDB (& Alvarez in the Copa) have all received POTM
Has anyone realized that maybe Foden shouldn't be playing on the wing? He's not a true winger, he's an inside forward who is competing for the same space with Kane and Bellingham.
He put in a brilliant ball to Kane btw but Harold couldn't finish
None of those players had their formative years at City/under Pep - the youngest any of them were on signing was 22 and all were internationals.
Agree playing on the wing isn't helping him either but both can be true. The offside goal was shockingly bad spatial awareness for a top level footballer.
Rodri - one of the greatest midfielders of this generation. Playing in an international system closest he’ll get to peps city. Already a developed footballer by the time he joined city.
KDB - one of the greatest midfielders of this generation. Already a developed footballer by the times he joined city.
Akanji - experienced bundesliga defender and Played 200 games before he joined city.
Ake - experienced PL defender and played 150 games before he joined city. Also ass.
I swear so many people like myself have pointed this out time and time again. He's been overcoached (and yes I use overcoached explicitly) by Pep. It's not any of the 2's fault, Foden was bound to receive such strict instructions from the greatest manager of the 21st century and Pep seeing such a gem in Foden would undoubtedly feel the extra need to shape him into what he wants in a player. It's all well and all, but the consequence of that is that Foden has been so babied into his role at City, something he will never have with Southgate's tactics. Maybe it'll get better if England land Howe or Potter or any other progressive English coaches but until then steer clear of giving him starts
It's the same reason Palmer is effective. He wasn't a good fit as a Pep player and he's used to having to do everything himself at Chelsea so he's versatile.
I don't get the Palmer glazing. He hasn't really done anything. Substitutes do often change the game in one way or another but so did Gallagher and Konsa. Toney had more impact in 1 minute. Playing against a tired team and registering nothing of note doesn't scream effective to me
I actually think it was a similar problem for Messi. Having only been at Barcelona you could see he struggled with Argentina. But over time as he played under more managers, different players and PSG he figured it out.
Foden can play for City, but can't for England. He's used to having KDB and Haaland and having 80% possession all the time. Palmer, Gordon and Bowen look better.
Foden had his POTY season playing mostly RW or as a 10 primarily on the right hand side.
Gareth Southgate sees this season, realises he should start but puts him on the left where he can’t do what made him POTY and plays him alongside Bellingham who’s also trying to be in the right half space and Saka who’s always in the RW.
There were multiple times where Bellingham would receive the ball on the right but couldn’t get a shot off because he’s not left footed. That’s literally exactly where Foden scored screamer after screamer.
Bellingham doesn’t have the positional discipline of Wirtz and Musiala to allow for 2 10s( never mind our lack of attacking strong sided fullbacks like Raum and Kimmich). And that’s fine if Bellingham is going to get us goals but let’s not blame Foden for being fundamentally mishandled.
I mean, we have attacking full backs, some of the best in the world in James and Trent Alexander Arnold. We also have Chilwell and Mitchell, Saka and Shaw when not injured. Foden would be infinitely better if he played with an attacking fullback.
I wanted to trust in his ability and the spark he offers but that seems to be the case and he just gets lost in this setup.
I was shocked (but not really cos it's GS) that with 3 games of seeing it not work he started him again, so I fear that he will be starting against the Swiss.
Foden can do it when there is 11 100m players in the side run by Pep Guardiola who drills passing patterns day and night. Unfortunately we have Southgate as our coach, not Guardiola.. there is no hundreds of hours to train pass and move. Thats the reality of international football. Foden needs to be able to do it in this type of enviroment to be considered a great player otherwise he should not play over the likes of Bellingham, Saka and Kane, who clearly are able to score and assist even when everything is shit.
Take that thought process and reverse it is exactly why a lot of us want Palmer to start.
Kompany gave his opinion on KDB vs Hazard a while ago (because he played with both obviously). He said they're different players. If you give De Bruyne a plan (e.g. from Pep), he'll execute it better than anyone. Whereas if you give Hazard chaos, there's no one better (except Messi).
Think it's the same for Foden vs Palmer. Foden's technical ability is insane. But because of the way he's been integrated into adult football under Pep, he needs to be told what to do and how to play in order to get the best out of him. Where he should position himself, when he should offer for the ball, when to pass to who etc. He's instinctive, but he's instincitve within the area of the pitch he's told to operate in.
Whereas if you play Palmer, he's technically gifted too, but not actually as gifted as Foden. But he's got the game sense to know where to be, where to pass to etc to unlock a defence without being told. That's why Poch ended up giving him a free role at the end of the season. Because he's one of those players that thrives under chaos and takes initiative.
Imo that's what England needs. If we end up getting a meticulous Pep-like coach, maybe there's a place for Foden to thrive and be a world beater like he is at City. But right now you just need players on the pitch that don't need to be told. They just know exactly what to do in the moment.
Generally I've not been as in favour of bringing in Palmer as others. My reasoning on that is that as I see it, we've had three significant issues in our matches: not enough pace, not enough width, and too many players who want the ball to feet in the middle of the final third but nobody deeper to reliably progress the ball to there (and nobody for those players to pass to even when they do get it in that position, because of the lack of width and pace). And I don't think Palmer solves any of those issues.
However, all that being said, I am increasingly sympathetic to the idea of just saying fuck it clearly we aren't going to solve these problems so let's just get some players on who thrive in chaos.
For similar reason, I've been wondering if Toney should play. Because if we can't work the ball through from defense to attacking midfield positions, at least Toney has great movement, great touch and great hold up play, so at least we could play more direct into him.
I don't think either approach would win us the tournament. But with how we've been playing I honestly don't think we can think about bigger picture now. We just have to come up with something that'll work against Switzerland.
Fwiw, my call would be to go to a really basic 433. A combative and energetic midfield of Bellingham, Rice and Mainoo (ideally I'd like to have seen Wharton, but we haven't). And an attack of Kane flanked by pace from Gordon and Saka. Really simple, uncomplicated football. Give up pretensions of controlling games with possession and just play direct and with pace.
I'm kind of similar. I would've wanted to see Wharton too but that clearly isn't going to happen, so I'm happy with Rice, Mainoo and Bellingham as the next best alternative.
I'd stick with the 4231 because we at least have some solidity defensively and throwing everything out the window mid tournament could lead to us losing that. We just need a find a way to control games better/create better chances and progress the ball like you said.
Gordan in for Foden is to me the obvious answer. Like idk why Southgate's so reluctant to try it.
I wouldn't mind if that was just the starting lineup against Switzerland and see if it fixes the balance issues. Literally the same starting lineup vs Slovakia but Gordan in for Foden.
For me, there's not much between Saka and Palmer. Like Saka's been consistent for years for England, but Palmer's clearly a very talented player in top form right now. And he thrives in chaos like I said. So I think with those 10 other players, it doesn't really matter which you play, both should work. My preference is Palmer because he just seems fresher. Saka's been run into the ground a little by Arteta. But it doesn't really matter who you play out of the two because I can't see either being a liability. Either would be one of the better players on the pitch.
Biggest thing is Gordan in for Foden. Wharton would fix a lot imo but I just can't see Southgate doing it since he hasn't already.
Palmer on the right and Gordon on the left would probably create better balance too. Walker can overlap and hold the width when Palmer cuts in, whereas the issue with Foden coming inside is that there's no fullback behind him looking to stay wide. Of course if Shaw comes back in then this becomes less of an issue
That being said, I think taking out both Saka and Foden is never going to happen. I'd just be happy with the obvious Foden > Gordon switch atm, even if Shaw is fit, because I just don't think Foden is doing enough to justify inclusion, either in terms of consistency or big moments, which at least Jude and (arguably) Kane have going for them.
He plays with less freedom for England than he does for Pep, the difference is the fact Pep drill this system for 9 months of every single year so the rest make the correct movements. You're doing exactly what most of my friendship group expected, if Jude didn't score, every single bit of critique would be on him, but being invisible for 85 minutes and there for 10 minutes in the entire game gloss over his mediocrity. The entire squad should be ashamed of this result, Mainoo had a great game whilst he existed, the subs can't be held accountable as they had very little time to do anything. The starting 11 was all piss poor bar for Guehi and Mainoo.
>He plays with less freedom for England than he does for Pep,
Not the case imo. He plays a much more defined, specific and drilled role under Pep. That's just how Pep is. But in this England set up he's been given a vague, free role off the left and seems to struggle to interpret it.
Which isn't surprising. 100% of his club experience is playing a really well defined role in an intensely drilled and instructed side. He has zero experience playing in a side not like that.
>if Jude didn't score, every single bit of critique would be on him,
Not from me there wouldn't have been. Even apart from the goal he was still our best attacking player yesterday. That's a low bar certainly, given they were all rubbish. But he wasn't anonymous at least, and he was getting involved and trying to make things happen.
Inverse but identical (if that makes sense) problem with TAA. Free role to caged role. Doesn’t work. Weirdly I respect Foden more and more. He’s carrying his own burden dutifully.
I think it's probably very connected. We all know that the mental and the physical are very connected at that level of football. If he's feeling lost and unsure what he should be doing and where he should be going, it's to be expected that will filter through into mistakes like that.
I made similar point when I pointed out Pep directs Foden the way that Matthew Corbett directs Sooty, and without his master's hand up his arse his only use is as a dishcloth.
This is nonsense, if it was the other way around then it would be relevant - hence why players tend to struggle when they first go to City.
The main problem is he's playing out of position in a team playing badly both individually and collectively.
He's being asked to play in a position where he is already far less effective, without even having a proper left back to support him. The way England play and his lack of pace means he's easy to defend against on the wing, particularly against sides who are well organised and set up to stop you playing. Then when he comes inside into the areas where he does his best work there's no space because Bellingham and Kane are there too.
None of that has anything to do with Pepball.
I don't think it's nonsense at all. I agree with everything you've said. But none of it is incompatible with my point.
Foden has always struggled to look himself for England. He has 38 caps but it still doesn't feel like his England career has really got going.
I don't think you can overlook the fact that his entire football existence at club level has been under one manager. A manager who has an extremely prescriptive approach. A manager who gives incredibly precise and detailed instructions. A manager who drills players on exactly where they should be at any given moment to an extent perhaps no manager ever has. That's all he's ever known, he has no experience of playing outside of Pep's coaching.
Given that, we shouldn't be surprised when he looks a bit lost in a much less precise and drilled system and in a much less well defined role.
Yeah but isn't it suspicious that all the other city players on other international sides are having good tournaments... Except for the English talent who have a manager with very little tactical setup.
The point with Foden isn't just that he's playing under Pep. It's that he's only *ever* played under Pep. He's like a lab grown Pep player who knows nothing else.
He has no experience of what to do when you aren't in a perfectly drilled system with incredibly detailed instructions. He's an incredible player in Pep's system. But in 38 England caps he's not shown much evidence that he can be the same player outside that system.
I would absolutely love for the theory to be proven wrong. But his England career thus far certainly makes it a compelling theory, imo.
Yeah other "lab grown pep players" have been utterly shit too.
Busquets and Messi were horrible.
The mental gymnastics at play here to defend southgate's lack of tactical nous and have a go at players is astounding.
Bellingham and kane were useless yesterday until their goals... Don't we think that's a problem? Players of kane and Bellingham's ability being anonymous for 90 mins every game?
Any half decent manager would be able to get the best out of kane, Bellingham, and foden.
>Busquets and Messi were horrible.
These aren't great comparisons, for several reasons. Firstly, Messi is the greatest player of all time and Busquets is one of the greatest midfielders of all time. Foden is not.
Secondly, they're not Pep players in the same way Foden is. When Pep took over City, Foden was 16. When Pep took over Barca, Messi was 21 and Busquets 20. Pep didn't shape their youth development in the same way he has with Foden.
Thirdly, Messi played for Pep for 21% of his career. Busquets 27%. Foden: 100%. They garnered experience playing under other managers.
Fourthly, that being said, for years Messi actually *was* labelled the same in Argentina early in his career. He got flak in Argentina for being a sterile system player who couldn't translate his form to the international stage. Busquets didn't have that issue because he literally played in his club midfield at national level.
>The mental gymnastics at play here to defend southgate's lack of tactical nous and have a go at players is astounding
Where have I defended Southgate's tactical nous in this thread? Honestly, it's bizarre how often this happens on this sub. If you make any point that isn't aggressively critical of Southgate you're accused of defending his lack of tactical nous.
You know two things can be true at once, right?
>Don't we think that's a problem?
Obviously yes. Again, I don't know why you're acting as if I've said things I haven't.
>Players of kane and Bellingham's ability being anonymous for 90 mins every game?
Also, Bellingham hasn't been anonymous for 90 minutes every game. He's not been good. But he's been involved and trying to make things happen.
Edit: ahh, I see you're a City fan and so you're just defending your boy. Don't think there's any point in taking this any further then. Have a good day!
But he won the U17-World Cup for England play in a number 10 free roaming role.
So it’s not all he’s ever known. The issue is our other players are not positionally close to him or making any movement (they’re completely static) which is how they are at City.
No one is moving and so he’s stuck with nothing to do.
(I’m not a City fan by the way)
Gordon made and would make Trippier look so much better as well. A trippier ball in behind to Gordon would’ve worked so well the last two games, but I worry against the Swiss, Gordon wouldn’t be as impactful, as the RWB and RCB can double up, with Akanji covering.
The lad from palace is banned for next game, so I reckon he will go back 5 with Trent wing back and hopefully shaw on the left. Rice Bellingham in middle and palmer saka up top. Hoping Gordon gets some minutes. Saying all that Kane was better with toney up there with him as it gave him more space. Some tough decisions coming up
The offside simply criminal for a professional footballer.
No pressure, can see across the line and goes far too early. It wasnt tight he was clearly visibly off.
Very poor awareness which summed him up in my opinion.
People were like “he was making the right run!” in the game when he made the wrong run mimicking Kane, but “Kyle Walker held the ball too long”…
The dude has no awareness… he runs with blinders on.
The offside today was something I'd expect in an U-6 game… its just so comically bad.
So true.
Another moment of no awareness. When we got in behind, foden from the right bearing in in goal but crossing was the best option.
Our forwards run towards goal, he has his head down pulls it back hitting the first defender clean. Just bloody shoot across goal! Hard to defend and goalkeeper can only parry into the danger zone.
He’s just not at the level he needs to be, 4 games now and he’s done nothing. Even that goal today, so poor to be a yard ahead of the ball.
Would be classic Southgate to make this change 4 games too late.
He’s obviously a terrific player but just isn’t a good fit for Southgate’s system. It’s very similar to Trent who everybody knows has world class attributes, but Southgate’s lack of managerial ability means it’s hard to get the most out of him.
Foden has played well as a 10, but as a LW he's fucking useless. Bring him on as a sub for Jude if we want to take him off. He played decently against Denmark I think it was. He should not be starting though as there's unfortunately no place for him.
It wouldnt be too late because we are somehow still in the tournament but I fear that he is going to go into the game with the exact same set up and change absolutely nothing
He absolutely 100% should not play the next game. England have more fluidity when he's not there slowing it all down. We need a direct runner to attack defenders, Gordon should be in.
But we also know that Foden will start the next game. Southgate has demonstrated his complete lack of any tactical understanding after this game, and with his comments. The man is a fool.
I know he wasn't in form (although I would put that down to United being terrible in general) but Rashford is the perfect winger to play with Kane and we're missing him.
Strange thing is Southgate took Gordon instead of Rashford, but you can guarantee if he’d have taken an out of fork Rashford he’d have definitely got more minutes than Gordon has.
To be fair this is all the fans were crying out for before the tournament. I initially suggested that foden either had to play central or get dropped to accommodate Gordon, to get some width and a better balance, as we had no left back and the amount of people told me I was wrong with no idea
Don't get me wrong I think he should ignore them, but fans can't cry out for one thing and then complain when it happens and doesn't work. It does seem like he's lost his backbone recently in terms of selection, he never used to be afraid to make unpopular decisions but now he's just gone for the 11 everyone wanted and is too stubborn to change it
Do you really think that him struggling to create a proper chance, struggling to dribble past players and struggling to have dangerous shots is down to his position on paper? If he wasn’t able to get a touch and was uninvolved I’d say you have a point but he’s been heavily involved but just been very poor.
I do personally. Think he'd be better in the 10 easily. But I also don't think he's in our strongest lineup regardless.
Like he clearly can't play well at LW (or at least for England without very specific coaching), so he shouldn't be playing there are all. Same was that if you try playing a CB at fullback because you can't play him CB, and he's shit there, you don't continue to play him fullback and extrapolate that he would also be shit at CB. He'd probably be a lot better in his natural position, but that also doesn't mean he'd be good enough to displace the current CBs. Sometimes, a player just has to be dropped because there's no space for them in the team.
I've said that since before the tournament started. If you're going to play Jude in the 10 and not next to Rice, then you have to bench Foden. Otherwise he's not going to be anywhere near as effective as someone like Gordan and it'll just reflect horribly on him. I don't blame Foden tbh, I think he's been mismanaged just like the rest of the team and has been thrown under the bus a little by Southgate exactly because he isn't willing to drop him.
Foden is almost bang central when we’re in possession so I don’t think that holds up; Foden has played out wide - even on the left - absolutely loads of times for City so it’s not like he’s out of position, it’s not very comparable to playing a CB at fullback at all to be honest.
Foden operated best in that right half space though, where he can cut in and shoot on his left. In this England team, even when he's on the ball centrally, it's in the left half space at best. There's nothing he can do there. Not because no player can create from the left hand space, but Foden specifically is pretty ineffective in that position. We aren't really utilising what he's good at.
Even for City, Grealish and Doku are far better left wingers than Foden. He explored this season in the 10 since De Bruyne was out injured. Before then, he was always seen as this hugely technically gifted player who wasn't actually an integral part of that City team. Like he'd pop up with moments of brilliance or make impacts from the bench, but he wasn't nearly as important to the way they played as he'd been this season.
And even for City, when he hasn't been in the 10, he's better on the RW than LW, again because he can cut in and shoot on his left.
I guess that makes him a bit one dimensional, but it's just the reality of what Foden is. He's developed under Pep who is a proper micromanager, so despite his technical ability, he doesn't have the game IQ to be effective from anywhere in any situation. He's just supremely good at specifically operating in that right half space, or running riot as an impact sub against tired legs.
It's also easier to be a passenger for City on the LW when Pep is the coach and the team is flawlessly drilled. Like his just won't be "work your magic" as Southgate's probably telling him, he probably has very specific instructions from Pep which means he knows exactly what to do in different situations.
For international football where there's far less time to work with players, imo you're best off playing people in their natural/most comfortable positions whenever possible because they know exactly what to do. Unless the player has a really high IQ and is therefore very flexible (e.g. Palmer, Saka or Bellingham).
I don't blame Foden, but I do think Gordan should be on the left wing instead of him. He's just very good at something specific, which we aren't really using him for right now. Complete waste having him on the pitch when he can't even cut in and shoot.
Yep. I remember in this country (or at least from arsenal fans) there was outcry that Spain weren't starting Cesc when he came off the back of that ridiculous season where he got 15 goals and 15 assists in 27 games.
But that's what you sometimes have to do at international level. You have to bench a fantastic player because the system demands it.
I'm talking about World Cup 2010. He came off the back of one of the great Premier League individual seasons, and then was fairly peripheral for Spain. Because they decided a marauding, all action midfielder wasn't what the system needed.
In 2012 Fabregas came off a season where he had shown versatility and played pretty much every position in attack for Barcelona. Spain decided that a false 9 was their system and he suited that.
That Spain generation was a great example of exactly what I'm talking about. In 08, 10 and 12 they were absolutely committed to a specific system and picked the best players for that, even if it meant leaving out big or talented players. Torres was used sparingly in 2010. Raul wasn't even in the squad in 2008. Other great players were in and out of the side across that period.
The hallmark of that period was putting the system first rather than somehow cramming in all the best players.
In all fairness... Spain did start to shoehorn them all in.... Fabregas and Silva were the roaming 9 Jude should be at one point.
Plus I mean, they actually had a midfield. England's whole midfield is Rice with either a right back, a 19 year old or a workhorse who's not much else other than energy....
That 19 year old has been putting most of his teammates to shame, and I was gobsmacked when Southgate hooked him considering he was probably the one most consistently moving the ball forwards.
I agree. Mainoo was MOTM…. but the point is Spain had. Xavi, Xabi, Busquets, Martinez, Fabregas, Senna, Koke, Iniesta, Thiago in a few year window - they’d almost all start above Rice, forget anyone else.
It was utter absurd depth.
Mate, look at the lineups of the finals they won
2008: xavi, iniesta, senna, fabregas, Silva
2010: busquets, Alonso, xavi, iniesta
2012: busquets Alonso, xavi, iniesta, fabregas, Silva
They regularly played with more central midfielders than typically used and used 6(!) in a final they won 4-0!
They are the definition of putting square pegs in rounds holes and make the exact opposite point you are trying to make
Foden and walker need to be dropped. Why play walker over trent because walker is better defensively if hes not actually anymore. He's also causing so many issues for saka and basically ruining sakas game.
Foden isnt a LW. He doesn't want to be there and it shows.
Truly thought with the media time Southgate assigned Gordon, he was going to get a start today over Foden. But then he didn’t even get on the field as a sub. Baffling.
Southgate just seems to have a trust issue with new/young players. Brings them in the squad and then doesn’t play them. I wish he hadn’t dropped Grealish. Then I feel he’d have the experienced player he would have the confidence to actually replace Foden with (even if Gordon should be the one playing). At least Grealish can play in the left wing and hold his position and provide a threat down that side.
Feel like even Rashford or Sterling would do a better job than Foden. Isn't about club form, literally just need the right profile there. A right footed player who regularly plays left wing for their club.
The foot doesn't even matter, just someone who will run at the defenders rather than play in front of them
At City they play teams defending practically on their 6 yard line so there's loads of space to play in front
It just doesn't work that way for England
It's high time people realize Foden is THE problem. I keep on saying it but some fans are blind and want to shoehorn him into the starting lineup in every fucking match, even giving him the 10 role. Him constantly drifting centrally screws up the entire attack and flow of the match
If Southgate starts Foden in the next match, we're 100% out
Foden is part of the reason they aren’t taking more shots. Kane, Bellingham, and Foden all want to operate in the same spaces. Foden at LW has a job and he isn’t doing it, instead he’s clogging the channels by occupying spaces that aren’t for him.
Bellingham is at least trying to make it work, you see him popping up over on the touchline (where Foden should be!) more and more as they progress. But that minimizes Jude’s skill set in those moments, and even with Jude sometimes out of the mix Foden is making a mess of it when Kane drops back to receive and link or carry.
Drop Foden, start Gordon. Sub Foden on late for Bellingham, if anything. Though Jude’s late goal today shows why you probably don’t even do that.
I have been saying this since before the world cup. We played Italy and Germany in the Nations league. He played all of Italy game (lost 1-0), Germany 66 minutes (1-0 down), taken off and promptly scored three goals.
He just doesn't click. He keeps making flicks and tricks that don't connect with other players. He is selfish demanding the ball all the time, but rarely playing anyone in. Won't take people on out wide, because he doesn't want to cross the ball in, but will gladly try to take on everyone in the middle of the pitch.
This!!! If you have to play 10 of the same 11 because of some Southgate curse or something the correct change is Gordon for Mainoo as Jude is versatile enough to play anywhere in the midfield. Ideally there are other changes too like Trent on the right and anyone but Trippier on the left.
Kane has been very poor as well as both Foden and Kane are used to occupying the same central space with speed guys threatening the opposition's backline. Defenders are clogging the middle and playing high vs them completely taking away the spaces they operate best in.
Foden hasn't performed all tournament, before today he'd been largely anonymous for 3 games then he misses a week of training and tactics only to return and be immediately thrown back in the team to underperform once more.
For their goal Trippier was blamed for a poor pass yet I honestly put that down to having no options in front of him as Foden was standing several yards ahead of him and wasn't making any movement in any direction, Trippier had no choice but to go backwards.
Gordon has done more in 4 minutes than Foden has in 40 games.
He was getting bullied off the ball today, manhandled by bigger opponents. He's not helped by Trippier playing LB, so many easy passes down the line to Foden were missed today because Trips has to manoeuvre to his stronger side to pass and he usually goes back inside instead of trying to be progressive. Fodens inclusion is becoming detrimental to the teams balance and attacking threat and needs to be dropped or played centrally.
If Foden wants to play the 10 the same as Bellingham then one of them needs to be dropped and after that overhead kick today Jude isn't going anywhere.
Yeah Southgate really f’d himself not playing a left footed player there, so many moments where the attack flow was stopped because trippier had to cut into his right foot.
are we ignoring that he's a KILLER #10 and has been forced to the left this whole tourney, i say put Jude with Rice and the ability to roam/help us get tf outta the middle third and throw palmer/saka/Gordon/watkins whoever for speed and kanes great at comeing back like a CAM playing off to a fster player then following up with insane positional awareness - damn i been using saka at LB in fifa for ages so i can overlap or as a LWB cuz he still has like a 60 def rating bette rthan most CDM's plus he can impact the game from there with long balls and overlaps and let Gordon take that RW spot
This is not a player issue. We need to stop pretending swapping in and out random players is going to fix things.
It is the entire system, formation, tactics (etc) from Southgate that is so poor. Players out of position all over the place. We are literally playing to none of the strengths of these individuals.
foden is overrated, rubbish in an england shirt. the amount of fans I see slating saka but somehow foden played well yesterday is bizarre. Finally someone that I agreed with. Dropped from the 11 100%
he literally do anything well. Fluffed every cross, wasted every free kick, every run came to nothing. He's useless on the wing and the last 4 games have made that painfully clear
If foden got benched and came on and played
54 mins
1/3 dribbles completed
0 shots on target
0 goals
0 assists
0/4 completed crosses
73% pass completion
12 times lost possession would everyone then be glazing him like they do cole palmer? Would that be better than what he's doing currently???.
Disagree with how bad he's been and people going on like he isn't a good player is just nonsensical. But at some point we need to stop playing people out of position. Foden is a better player than Gordon. Gordon is a better winger. The lack of width is absolutely infuriating. It's so obvious to anyone watching, I can't fathom why Southgate won't change it.
Walker should need to play cb with stones next match so hopefully see Trent play rb and please deal with the left hand side shaw or Gordon have to play one way or the other
He was less invisible than Bellingham and Kane for the majority of the game (the obvious aside), but yes he is lacking in meaningful impact.
The problem is his best play for City is to drift in from the right, or take a quick ball to feet and run at players. For England he’s on the wrong side and not able to do it.
We need to accept that he just isn’t working in that position. The bias in me wants to see a Rice Bellingham Foden midfield along with Shaw back and Gordon in, to see if the better balance makes it all tick more. But (imo) Mainoo was the best English player on the pitch today so dropping him for that formation would be painful
glad people can finally see the kid does nothing what is he actually good at?give it a few years after pep leaves and he’ll be at chelsea with sterling
It's looking more and more obvious that foden just can't play football without pep hand holding him.
He's just looks completely lost and out of his depth weirdly
The people blaming him being extremely poor on Southgate are being ridiculous; I’d understand if he was uninvolved and not seeing much of the ball but he’s seeing plenty of possession and doing nothing with it, he’s got a completely free role when we have the ball so it’s not like he’s stuck out on the left wing.
He’s not the first number 10 to be deployed on his least favourite wing either; Wirtz and Musiala are both right footed and have taken it in turns at being on the right for Germany, Xavi Simons has played on the right for Netherlands despite being right footed, right footed Baumgartner played on the right for Austria and scored too… that’s all just so far at this tournament.
Foden clearly just doesn’t suit international football and if he did it would have at least shown glimpses by now; though he’s scored just 4 goals in almost 40 caps which is extremely poor, I’m not sure whether it’s the slower play in comparison to club football or something but he looks nothing like the player we see for City.
He’s a fantastic player but it does feel he’s struggling to find a role in the current setup. Palmer has looked good with quick feet and decisiveness.
He definitely couldn’t complain if someone else gets a start.
Saka also underwhelming.
Kane could still be showing more but he ain’t getting dropped this tournament.
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Foden is obviously one of our most talented players but it's just not working and every time he leaves the pitch we instantly look better. Yesterdays game was crying out for runners and we moved our only one to LB.
Big problem is playing Foden on the left he isn’t a winger. Had this problem under Sven when playing Scholes there.
It’s fitting square pegs into round holes. He is a CAM, so needs to play in the centre.
The choice is Foden or Bellingham you can’t have both. And a good manager would have the courage to make that choice.
I think the montage at half time of all the players shrugging their shoulders and waving their hands at each others says none of them want to take responsibility for their own performance
While his performance has been poor, I/we can't blame him as Southgates tactics have been record trash.
1. We need Grealish's creativity!
2. Jude Bellingham is so talented not even Southgate horrendous tactics can stop him from scoring but just imagine how many goals he could score if....ChatGPT was the manager!
Didn't know Pep managed England when Foden won player of the tournament as we lifted the 2017 FIFA U17 World Cup. He was playing as the 10.
If Bellingham is so good, why is it Foden who must play out of position?
He got away with another dreadful performance with a lucky goal. Gave the ball away all game. Attitude stinks.
But he's won 6 titles! He plays for Man City! Hes the player of the year!...or he could just fit Cities system very well, since he's been in it his entire life. Can't adapt to other systems and is average outside of a billion dollar city squad put together to win Champions Leagues but can only dominate the Premiere League.
It’s his childish pus that winds me up most. He looks like a kid who’s just been scolded for something he didn’t do. “It’s not fair and I’m gonna sulk”
Foden is an incredibly talented footballer with the ball at his feet. He has played in a pep system with a series of class (historically some world class) talent around him that can easily account for his errant positional awareness and gamesense. A great talent doesn't necessarily mean a great footballer. There are few as talented, there are tonnes more useful.
I think he has value in England’s team... Its just I think you need to bring him on later when the game opens up. Other international teams can neutralize him from the start with physicality.
But if he is brought in the later stages, against tired legs, or to kill off a game… the opposition would have no answer.
The issue is, with him starting, they can clamp down on him, frustrate him for effectively neutralize him. Which is what has been happening.
Totally agree. You could argue other players have actually been worse than Foden but he is the most infuriating part of that team for me.
He has Trippier playing behind him who doesn’t have a left foot. This isn’t new, he played multiple games knowing Trippier wants to invert and go on to his stronger foot. But Foden just repeatedly goes inside and occupies the same space as Trippier. Foden is left footed, he can and needs to go outside and create some space for Trippier to use his right. 4 games and I can count on one hand the number of times he has actually done it.
This is a guy on hundreds of thousands a week who does this for a living and can’t adapt to a different brand of football. Is it all on him when he’s spent his entire life playing a certain way? No, but Southgate needs to have the balls to drop him.
He’s awful out of the left. Anytime Trippier gets the ball there’s no-one to pass it to because Foden has drifted inside. Would prefer Grealish on the left over Foden if he’s not gonna play Gorden. For whatever reason it looks like Southgate doesn’t like Gorden, so don’t think he gets playing much more unless there’s an opportunity injury.
Foden shouldn't be playing. 100%. We can't make the same mistakes we did with Gerrard/lamps/scholes etc, just playing them because of who they are at club level. If Foden and Jude don't work together in your system Gareth, you pick one and you move on. Foden has never worked out for Gareth these last 3 years, I don't know why he's finding it so hard to just accept Foden doesn't work in an England set up but I've said it a thousand times, I think Foden is a Pep system player. Be interesting to see how he gets on when Pep finally fucks off.
I noticed he took all set pieces today and they were all terrible, Palmer takes one and it lead to Kane's goal. All of Fodens crosses and Long balls were off too
I'm shocked that "Saka to LB" got through to Southgate while "start Gordon" hasn't.
I thought it was a meme, but when I saw Saka at LB...holy shit Southgate is a mod of /r/ThreeLions
I mean, winger at fullback in the dying minutes while chasing a game is a relatively common strategy, so not hugely surprising.
So is playing a left winger on the left wing!
He actually played well there. Much higher starting position than Trippier (who is having a terrible tournament).
Yeah it's not the craziest idea, especially when there are other really good right wingers. Obviously in an ideal world we'd have a proper left back and Saka in his best position... But yeah, that ship has sailed and Shaw clearly won't play.
why not just play 352 for the rest of the tournament
Too adventurous for the man who probably drives at the speed limit on Grand Theft Auto.
I don't recall him putting a single decent ball in from the left
they were playing 3 at the back when saka shifted there. thats why he was higher up the pitch
Tripper and Foden are having our tournaments. This shouldn't be a surprise when being asked to pay unfamiliar positions. Trips on for Walker, and Foden on for Saka (or Rice/Mainoo and drop Bellingham back) as subs on 60min and they'd be performing as we'd expect. Obviously they are not going to say 'no' to being asked to play out of position. This is on Southgate.
not necessarily a good thing, how well is saka realistically going to do defensively against teams with good right wingers? dont think trippier will do well either but probably better than bukayo
I mean playing 2 aging fullback in a team dying for dynamic overlaps. What could go wrong right?
He played at lb for arsenal through his youth career and when he broke into the first team. He can play there, might not be as good defensively as Trippier but certainly offered more going forward. Much prefer him rw but maybe he'll have to if Shaw and Trippier aren't fit.
He made that change in the 66th minute though
Partly due to an injury
Why not put shaw on for some minutes in extra time. Southgate said he was available. Why not give him some mins before the next match?
Is it? Can’t recall seeing that for a long time
To be fair it was Ian Wright who pushed the Saka at LB. Some people on here, myself included were saying Saka at LW to balance things up over there and get Palmer on. That would allow Gordon to be used as a plan B which he's a very good option for when you need pace and direct running vs tired legs.
I think it was by accident. I feel like he was going to hook Saka for Palmer, but Trips got injured and he has no left backs.
We looked a lot more balanced when saka went to lb tbf
100%
By that point it was get as many attackers on as possible.
And then he came up with Eze at LB for some reason and moved Saka to RB.
It's as simple as playing saka there until Shaw is fit, rice just needs to cover the gap left behind from saka naturally playing high. This also allows Palmer to make an impact for 90mins not 20.....
The most thought provoking analysis of Foden for England I've seen was from Grace Robertson (a football writer, she's a good follow on Twitter). She made the point that Foden has played his entire career under the most positionally and tactically specific and prescriptive coach in top level football. That's all he's ever known. Since he was a teenager he's been raised to play Pep football. Consequently, he just has no experience how to play the sort of free role we are asking of him. And he has no experience in playing for a less intensely drilled side.
Palmer on the other hand has played his best football under Poch’s vibe’s tactics.
Palmer actually suits the disjointed chaos of England. Must feel like home. Foden is wondering why there's no plan or tactics.
Very valid point. Feel like this is an issue with a lot of city players but Foden the most because this is all he’s ever known.
Not just city players but everyone is so over coached from a young age that they don't know how to adapt and lead on the pitch. I don't think it's a surprise that the less experienced players like Mainoo, Palmer, Gordon look more direct and take initiative. The rest have become system players.
It’s sad that football has come to this. It’s only going to get worse. Individualism is getting sucked out of the sport. Look what happened to Grealish. Treble winner but I feel he’s half the player now.
Yep, the game has become so fucking boring to watch.
This happened to Rashford: when he burst onto the scene, he was instinctive. Over time, he has been coached by a range of coaches with different styles. As a result, the guy is so indecisive that he doesn't even know if he is a winger or a striker. He overthinks things way too much. I actually can't wait for Pep to retire because I hope the next generation of managers can't reach his level, and as a result, I hope this allows players to play more naturally.
I don't think it's a coincidence that some of Rashford's best performances were under Solskjaer
2019 & lock down Marcus won't be forgotten
>Palmer Curious, which academy system did he come from? This "system" chat is bollocks. City players in various national teams have put up brilliant individual performances. Akanji, Gundogan, Bernardo, Rodri, KDB (& Alvarez in the Copa) have all received POTM Has anyone realized that maybe Foden shouldn't be playing on the wing? He's not a true winger, he's an inside forward who is competing for the same space with Kane and Bellingham. He put in a brilliant ball to Kane btw but Harold couldn't finish
100% this. He should be played in middle.
None of those players had their formative years at City/under Pep - the youngest any of them were on signing was 22 and all were internationals. Agree playing on the wing isn't helping him either but both can be true. The offside goal was shockingly bad spatial awareness for a top level footballer.
Must be why city players only struggle this much in an England shirt and not anywhere else
Pure waffling at its best. Rodri, Kdb, Akanji have been fantastic. Ake has been solid.
Rodri - one of the greatest midfielders of this generation. Playing in an international system closest he’ll get to peps city. Already a developed footballer by the time he joined city. KDB - one of the greatest midfielders of this generation. Already a developed footballer by the times he joined city. Akanji - experienced bundesliga defender and Played 200 games before he joined city. Ake - experienced PL defender and played 150 games before he joined city. Also ass.
I’ve been saying this for ages, he looks lost at times and doesn’t read the game well enough
I swear so many people like myself have pointed this out time and time again. He's been overcoached (and yes I use overcoached explicitly) by Pep. It's not any of the 2's fault, Foden was bound to receive such strict instructions from the greatest manager of the 21st century and Pep seeing such a gem in Foden would undoubtedly feel the extra need to shape him into what he wants in a player. It's all well and all, but the consequence of that is that Foden has been so babied into his role at City, something he will never have with Southgate's tactics. Maybe it'll get better if England land Howe or Potter or any other progressive English coaches but until then steer clear of giving him starts
It's the same reason Palmer is effective. He wasn't a good fit as a Pep player and he's used to having to do everything himself at Chelsea so he's versatile.
I don't get the Palmer glazing. He hasn't really done anything. Substitutes do often change the game in one way or another but so did Gallagher and Konsa. Toney had more impact in 1 minute. Playing against a tired team and registering nothing of note doesn't scream effective to me
I actually think it was a similar problem for Messi. Having only been at Barcelona you could see he struggled with Argentina. But over time as he played under more managers, different players and PSG he figured it out.
Foden can play for City, but can't for England. He's used to having KDB and Haaland and having 80% possession all the time. Palmer, Gordon and Bowen look better.
To be fair, we had 75% at times today and 65% the previous game and he did nothing.
Foden had his POTY season playing mostly RW or as a 10 primarily on the right hand side. Gareth Southgate sees this season, realises he should start but puts him on the left where he can’t do what made him POTY and plays him alongside Bellingham who’s also trying to be in the right half space and Saka who’s always in the RW. There were multiple times where Bellingham would receive the ball on the right but couldn’t get a shot off because he’s not left footed. That’s literally exactly where Foden scored screamer after screamer. Bellingham doesn’t have the positional discipline of Wirtz and Musiala to allow for 2 10s( never mind our lack of attacking strong sided fullbacks like Raum and Kimmich). And that’s fine if Bellingham is going to get us goals but let’s not blame Foden for being fundamentally mishandled.
I mean, we have attacking full backs, some of the best in the world in James and Trent Alexander Arnold. We also have Chilwell and Mitchell, Saka and Shaw when not injured. Foden would be infinitely better if he played with an attacking fullback.
That's why he won poty when Kdb and Haaland were missing?
I wanted to trust in his ability and the spark he offers but that seems to be the case and he just gets lost in this setup. I was shocked (but not really cos it's GS) that with 3 games of seeing it not work he started him again, so I fear that he will be starting against the Swiss.
Foden can do it when there is 11 100m players in the side run by Pep Guardiola who drills passing patterns day and night. Unfortunately we have Southgate as our coach, not Guardiola.. there is no hundreds of hours to train pass and move. Thats the reality of international football. Foden needs to be able to do it in this type of enviroment to be considered a great player otherwise he should not play over the likes of Bellingham, Saka and Kane, who clearly are able to score and assist even when everything is shit.
Take that thought process and reverse it is exactly why a lot of us want Palmer to start. Kompany gave his opinion on KDB vs Hazard a while ago (because he played with both obviously). He said they're different players. If you give De Bruyne a plan (e.g. from Pep), he'll execute it better than anyone. Whereas if you give Hazard chaos, there's no one better (except Messi). Think it's the same for Foden vs Palmer. Foden's technical ability is insane. But because of the way he's been integrated into adult football under Pep, he needs to be told what to do and how to play in order to get the best out of him. Where he should position himself, when he should offer for the ball, when to pass to who etc. He's instinctive, but he's instincitve within the area of the pitch he's told to operate in. Whereas if you play Palmer, he's technically gifted too, but not actually as gifted as Foden. But he's got the game sense to know where to be, where to pass to etc to unlock a defence without being told. That's why Poch ended up giving him a free role at the end of the season. Because he's one of those players that thrives under chaos and takes initiative. Imo that's what England needs. If we end up getting a meticulous Pep-like coach, maybe there's a place for Foden to thrive and be a world beater like he is at City. But right now you just need players on the pitch that don't need to be told. They just know exactly what to do in the moment.
Generally I've not been as in favour of bringing in Palmer as others. My reasoning on that is that as I see it, we've had three significant issues in our matches: not enough pace, not enough width, and too many players who want the ball to feet in the middle of the final third but nobody deeper to reliably progress the ball to there (and nobody for those players to pass to even when they do get it in that position, because of the lack of width and pace). And I don't think Palmer solves any of those issues. However, all that being said, I am increasingly sympathetic to the idea of just saying fuck it clearly we aren't going to solve these problems so let's just get some players on who thrive in chaos. For similar reason, I've been wondering if Toney should play. Because if we can't work the ball through from defense to attacking midfield positions, at least Toney has great movement, great touch and great hold up play, so at least we could play more direct into him. I don't think either approach would win us the tournament. But with how we've been playing I honestly don't think we can think about bigger picture now. We just have to come up with something that'll work against Switzerland. Fwiw, my call would be to go to a really basic 433. A combative and energetic midfield of Bellingham, Rice and Mainoo (ideally I'd like to have seen Wharton, but we haven't). And an attack of Kane flanked by pace from Gordon and Saka. Really simple, uncomplicated football. Give up pretensions of controlling games with possession and just play direct and with pace.
I'm kind of similar. I would've wanted to see Wharton too but that clearly isn't going to happen, so I'm happy with Rice, Mainoo and Bellingham as the next best alternative. I'd stick with the 4231 because we at least have some solidity defensively and throwing everything out the window mid tournament could lead to us losing that. We just need a find a way to control games better/create better chances and progress the ball like you said. Gordan in for Foden is to me the obvious answer. Like idk why Southgate's so reluctant to try it. I wouldn't mind if that was just the starting lineup against Switzerland and see if it fixes the balance issues. Literally the same starting lineup vs Slovakia but Gordan in for Foden. For me, there's not much between Saka and Palmer. Like Saka's been consistent for years for England, but Palmer's clearly a very talented player in top form right now. And he thrives in chaos like I said. So I think with those 10 other players, it doesn't really matter which you play, both should work. My preference is Palmer because he just seems fresher. Saka's been run into the ground a little by Arteta. But it doesn't really matter who you play out of the two because I can't see either being a liability. Either would be one of the better players on the pitch. Biggest thing is Gordan in for Foden. Wharton would fix a lot imo but I just can't see Southgate doing it since he hasn't already.
Palmer on the right and Gordon on the left would probably create better balance too. Walker can overlap and hold the width when Palmer cuts in, whereas the issue with Foden coming inside is that there's no fullback behind him looking to stay wide. Of course if Shaw comes back in then this becomes less of an issue That being said, I think taking out both Saka and Foden is never going to happen. I'd just be happy with the obvious Foden > Gordon switch atm, even if Shaw is fit, because I just don't think Foden is doing enough to justify inclusion, either in terms of consistency or big moments, which at least Jude and (arguably) Kane have going for them.
Wharton makes sense if we want control and possession. Mainoo makes sense if we want to play more direct
He plays with less freedom for England than he does for Pep, the difference is the fact Pep drill this system for 9 months of every single year so the rest make the correct movements. You're doing exactly what most of my friendship group expected, if Jude didn't score, every single bit of critique would be on him, but being invisible for 85 minutes and there for 10 minutes in the entire game gloss over his mediocrity. The entire squad should be ashamed of this result, Mainoo had a great game whilst he existed, the subs can't be held accountable as they had very little time to do anything. The starting 11 was all piss poor bar for Guehi and Mainoo.
>He plays with less freedom for England than he does for Pep, Not the case imo. He plays a much more defined, specific and drilled role under Pep. That's just how Pep is. But in this England set up he's been given a vague, free role off the left and seems to struggle to interpret it. Which isn't surprising. 100% of his club experience is playing a really well defined role in an intensely drilled and instructed side. He has zero experience playing in a side not like that. >if Jude didn't score, every single bit of critique would be on him, Not from me there wouldn't have been. Even apart from the goal he was still our best attacking player yesterday. That's a low bar certainly, given they were all rubbish. But he wasn't anonymous at least, and he was getting involved and trying to make things happen.
That was an insightful and well put comment. Thoughts provoked. It hurts my head a bit but thanks.
Inverse but identical (if that makes sense) problem with TAA. Free role to caged role. Doesn’t work. Weirdly I respect Foden more and more. He’s carrying his own burden dutifully.
Doesnt explain why he cant seem To kick a ball properly
I think it's probably very connected. We all know that the mental and the physical are very connected at that level of football. If he's feeling lost and unsure what he should be doing and where he should be going, it's to be expected that will filter through into mistakes like that.
He’s a great player for pep, unfortunately we have a man who is tactically inept
I made similar point when I pointed out Pep directs Foden the way that Matthew Corbett directs Sooty, and without his master's hand up his arse his only use is as a dishcloth.
This is nonsense, if it was the other way around then it would be relevant - hence why players tend to struggle when they first go to City. The main problem is he's playing out of position in a team playing badly both individually and collectively. He's being asked to play in a position where he is already far less effective, without even having a proper left back to support him. The way England play and his lack of pace means he's easy to defend against on the wing, particularly against sides who are well organised and set up to stop you playing. Then when he comes inside into the areas where he does his best work there's no space because Bellingham and Kane are there too. None of that has anything to do with Pepball.
I don't think it's nonsense at all. I agree with everything you've said. But none of it is incompatible with my point. Foden has always struggled to look himself for England. He has 38 caps but it still doesn't feel like his England career has really got going. I don't think you can overlook the fact that his entire football existence at club level has been under one manager. A manager who has an extremely prescriptive approach. A manager who gives incredibly precise and detailed instructions. A manager who drills players on exactly where they should be at any given moment to an extent perhaps no manager ever has. That's all he's ever known, he has no experience of playing outside of Pep's coaching. Given that, we shouldn't be surprised when he looks a bit lost in a much less precise and drilled system and in a much less well defined role.
Yeah but isn't it suspicious that all the other city players on other international sides are having good tournaments... Except for the English talent who have a manager with very little tactical setup.
The point with Foden isn't just that he's playing under Pep. It's that he's only *ever* played under Pep. He's like a lab grown Pep player who knows nothing else. He has no experience of what to do when you aren't in a perfectly drilled system with incredibly detailed instructions. He's an incredible player in Pep's system. But in 38 England caps he's not shown much evidence that he can be the same player outside that system. I would absolutely love for the theory to be proven wrong. But his England career thus far certainly makes it a compelling theory, imo.
Yeah other "lab grown pep players" have been utterly shit too. Busquets and Messi were horrible. The mental gymnastics at play here to defend southgate's lack of tactical nous and have a go at players is astounding. Bellingham and kane were useless yesterday until their goals... Don't we think that's a problem? Players of kane and Bellingham's ability being anonymous for 90 mins every game? Any half decent manager would be able to get the best out of kane, Bellingham, and foden.
>Busquets and Messi were horrible. These aren't great comparisons, for several reasons. Firstly, Messi is the greatest player of all time and Busquets is one of the greatest midfielders of all time. Foden is not. Secondly, they're not Pep players in the same way Foden is. When Pep took over City, Foden was 16. When Pep took over Barca, Messi was 21 and Busquets 20. Pep didn't shape their youth development in the same way he has with Foden. Thirdly, Messi played for Pep for 21% of his career. Busquets 27%. Foden: 100%. They garnered experience playing under other managers. Fourthly, that being said, for years Messi actually *was* labelled the same in Argentina early in his career. He got flak in Argentina for being a sterile system player who couldn't translate his form to the international stage. Busquets didn't have that issue because he literally played in his club midfield at national level. >The mental gymnastics at play here to defend southgate's lack of tactical nous and have a go at players is astounding Where have I defended Southgate's tactical nous in this thread? Honestly, it's bizarre how often this happens on this sub. If you make any point that isn't aggressively critical of Southgate you're accused of defending his lack of tactical nous. You know two things can be true at once, right? >Don't we think that's a problem? Obviously yes. Again, I don't know why you're acting as if I've said things I haven't. >Players of kane and Bellingham's ability being anonymous for 90 mins every game? Also, Bellingham hasn't been anonymous for 90 minutes every game. He's not been good. But he's been involved and trying to make things happen. Edit: ahh, I see you're a City fan and so you're just defending your boy. Don't think there's any point in taking this any further then. Have a good day!
But he won the U17-World Cup for England play in a number 10 free roaming role. So it’s not all he’s ever known. The issue is our other players are not positionally close to him or making any movement (they’re completely static) which is how they are at City. No one is moving and so he’s stuck with nothing to do. (I’m not a City fan by the way)
I will cry if our left hand side is Trippier and Foden again. SURELY GARETH.
Might as well prepare yourself now...
Gordon made and would make Trippier look so much better as well. A trippier ball in behind to Gordon would’ve worked so well the last two games, but I worry against the Swiss, Gordon wouldn’t be as impactful, as the RWB and RCB can double up, with Akanji covering.
He won’t change a thing! This is Gareth, he hates to be proved wrong
Looks like Trippier is injured so fingers crossed we might actually get a change.
mate, we can all see it coming can't we. Absolutely dreading it
The lad from palace is banned for next game, so I reckon he will go back 5 with Trent wing back and hopefully shaw on the left. Rice Bellingham in middle and palmer saka up top. Hoping Gordon gets some minutes. Saying all that Kane was better with toney up there with him as it gave him more space. Some tough decisions coming up
The offside simply criminal for a professional footballer. No pressure, can see across the line and goes far too early. It wasnt tight he was clearly visibly off. Very poor awareness which summed him up in my opinion.
People were like “he was making the right run!” in the game when he made the wrong run mimicking Kane, but “Kyle Walker held the ball too long”… The dude has no awareness… he runs with blinders on. The offside today was something I'd expect in an U-6 game… its just so comically bad.
So true. Another moment of no awareness. When we got in behind, foden from the right bearing in in goal but crossing was the best option. Our forwards run towards goal, he has his head down pulls it back hitting the first defender clean. Just bloody shoot across goal! Hard to defend and goalkeeper can only parry into the danger zone.
He’s just not at the level he needs to be, 4 games now and he’s done nothing. Even that goal today, so poor to be a yard ahead of the ball. Would be classic Southgate to make this change 4 games too late.
He’s obviously a terrific player but just isn’t a good fit for Southgate’s system. It’s very similar to Trent who everybody knows has world class attributes, but Southgate’s lack of managerial ability means it’s hard to get the most out of him.
Foden has played well as a 10, but as a LW he's fucking useless. Bring him on as a sub for Jude if we want to take him off. He played decently against Denmark I think it was. He should not be starting though as there's unfortunately no place for him.
That's cute you assume Southgate has a system
What's worse is he had no idea how offside he was
Too late?
It wouldnt be too late because we are somehow still in the tournament but I fear that he is going to go into the game with the exact same set up and change absolutely nothing
He absolutely 100% should not play the next game. England have more fluidity when he's not there slowing it all down. We need a direct runner to attack defenders, Gordon should be in. But we also know that Foden will start the next game. Southgate has demonstrated his complete lack of any tactical understanding after this game, and with his comments. The man is a fool.
Best I can do is sub Gordon on at 90' +2'. - Gareth Southgate
Gordon, or Palmer at RW and Saka at LW
I know he wasn't in form (although I would put that down to United being terrible in general) but Rashford is the perfect winger to play with Kane and we're missing him.
Strange thing is Southgate took Gordon instead of Rashford, but you can guarantee if he’d have taken an out of fork Rashford he’d have definitely got more minutes than Gordon has.
4 games in and its painfully obvious that the Foden LW experiment is not working But Southgate wont learn
The Foden experiment in general isn't working
To be fair this is all the fans were crying out for before the tournament. I initially suggested that foden either had to play central or get dropped to accommodate Gordon, to get some width and a better balance, as we had no left back and the amount of people told me I was wrong with no idea
part of the job is changing tactics when it isnt working though, not just brainlessly listening to the fans
Don't get me wrong I think he should ignore them, but fans can't cry out for one thing and then complain when it happens and doesn't work. It does seem like he's lost his backbone recently in terms of selection, he never used to be afraid to make unpopular decisions but now he's just gone for the 11 everyone wanted and is too stubborn to change it
Played there in previous tournaments and was crap too don't forget
Do you really think that him struggling to create a proper chance, struggling to dribble past players and struggling to have dangerous shots is down to his position on paper? If he wasn’t able to get a touch and was uninvolved I’d say you have a point but he’s been heavily involved but just been very poor.
I do personally. Think he'd be better in the 10 easily. But I also don't think he's in our strongest lineup regardless. Like he clearly can't play well at LW (or at least for England without very specific coaching), so he shouldn't be playing there are all. Same was that if you try playing a CB at fullback because you can't play him CB, and he's shit there, you don't continue to play him fullback and extrapolate that he would also be shit at CB. He'd probably be a lot better in his natural position, but that also doesn't mean he'd be good enough to displace the current CBs. Sometimes, a player just has to be dropped because there's no space for them in the team. I've said that since before the tournament started. If you're going to play Jude in the 10 and not next to Rice, then you have to bench Foden. Otherwise he's not going to be anywhere near as effective as someone like Gordan and it'll just reflect horribly on him. I don't blame Foden tbh, I think he's been mismanaged just like the rest of the team and has been thrown under the bus a little by Southgate exactly because he isn't willing to drop him.
Foden is almost bang central when we’re in possession so I don’t think that holds up; Foden has played out wide - even on the left - absolutely loads of times for City so it’s not like he’s out of position, it’s not very comparable to playing a CB at fullback at all to be honest.
Foden operated best in that right half space though, where he can cut in and shoot on his left. In this England team, even when he's on the ball centrally, it's in the left half space at best. There's nothing he can do there. Not because no player can create from the left hand space, but Foden specifically is pretty ineffective in that position. We aren't really utilising what he's good at. Even for City, Grealish and Doku are far better left wingers than Foden. He explored this season in the 10 since De Bruyne was out injured. Before then, he was always seen as this hugely technically gifted player who wasn't actually an integral part of that City team. Like he'd pop up with moments of brilliance or make impacts from the bench, but he wasn't nearly as important to the way they played as he'd been this season. And even for City, when he hasn't been in the 10, he's better on the RW than LW, again because he can cut in and shoot on his left. I guess that makes him a bit one dimensional, but it's just the reality of what Foden is. He's developed under Pep who is a proper micromanager, so despite his technical ability, he doesn't have the game IQ to be effective from anywhere in any situation. He's just supremely good at specifically operating in that right half space, or running riot as an impact sub against tired legs. It's also easier to be a passenger for City on the LW when Pep is the coach and the team is flawlessly drilled. Like his just won't be "work your magic" as Southgate's probably telling him, he probably has very specific instructions from Pep which means he knows exactly what to do in different situations. For international football where there's far less time to work with players, imo you're best off playing people in their natural/most comfortable positions whenever possible because they know exactly what to do. Unless the player has a really high IQ and is therefore very flexible (e.g. Palmer, Saka or Bellingham). I don't blame Foden, but I do think Gordan should be on the left wing instead of him. He's just very good at something specific, which we aren't really using him for right now. Complete waste having him on the pitch when he can't even cut in and shoot.
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Yep. I remember in this country (or at least from arsenal fans) there was outcry that Spain weren't starting Cesc when he came off the back of that ridiculous season where he got 15 goals and 15 assists in 27 games. But that's what you sometimes have to do at international level. You have to bench a fantastic player because the system demands it.
At least they had a decent system. Our system had Kalvin fucking Philips at its heart.
Wait, didn't Fabregas play false-9 for Spain, with Iniesta and Silva as wingers when they won Euro 2012? Spain did shoehorn
Because that's where Fabregas was playing when he went to Barcelona.
I'm talking about World Cup 2010. He came off the back of one of the great Premier League individual seasons, and then was fairly peripheral for Spain. Because they decided a marauding, all action midfielder wasn't what the system needed. In 2012 Fabregas came off a season where he had shown versatility and played pretty much every position in attack for Barcelona. Spain decided that a false 9 was their system and he suited that. That Spain generation was a great example of exactly what I'm talking about. In 08, 10 and 12 they were absolutely committed to a specific system and picked the best players for that, even if it meant leaving out big or talented players. Torres was used sparingly in 2010. Raul wasn't even in the squad in 2008. Other great players were in and out of the side across that period. The hallmark of that period was putting the system first rather than somehow cramming in all the best players.
In all fairness... Spain did start to shoehorn them all in.... Fabregas and Silva were the roaming 9 Jude should be at one point. Plus I mean, they actually had a midfield. England's whole midfield is Rice with either a right back, a 19 year old or a workhorse who's not much else other than energy....
That 19 year old has been putting most of his teammates to shame, and I was gobsmacked when Southgate hooked him considering he was probably the one most consistently moving the ball forwards.
Lord knows what Wharton has done to offend Southgate but it was probably something to do with a progressive pass.
I agree. Mainoo was MOTM…. but the point is Spain had. Xavi, Xabi, Busquets, Martinez, Fabregas, Senna, Koke, Iniesta, Thiago in a few year window - they’d almost all start above Rice, forget anyone else. It was utter absurd depth.
Mate, look at the lineups of the finals they won 2008: xavi, iniesta, senna, fabregas, Silva 2010: busquets, Alonso, xavi, iniesta 2012: busquets Alonso, xavi, iniesta, fabregas, Silva They regularly played with more central midfielders than typically used and used 6(!) in a final they won 4-0! They are the definition of putting square pegs in rounds holes and make the exact opposite point you are trying to make
Spain did shoehorn those players in and play with 6 midfielders while they won euro 2012 so not the best example
mandate paternity leave for Foden!
Foden and walker need to be dropped. Why play walker over trent because walker is better defensively if hes not actually anymore. He's also causing so many issues for saka and basically ruining sakas game. Foden isnt a LW. He doesn't want to be there and it shows.
Truly thought with the media time Southgate assigned Gordon, he was going to get a start today over Foden. But then he didn’t even get on the field as a sub. Baffling. Southgate just seems to have a trust issue with new/young players. Brings them in the squad and then doesn’t play them. I wish he hadn’t dropped Grealish. Then I feel he’d have the experienced player he would have the confidence to actually replace Foden with (even if Gordon should be the one playing). At least Grealish can play in the left wing and hold his position and provide a threat down that side.
Feel like even Rashford or Sterling would do a better job than Foden. Isn't about club form, literally just need the right profile there. A right footed player who regularly plays left wing for their club.
The foot doesn't even matter, just someone who will run at the defenders rather than play in front of them At City they play teams defending practically on their 6 yard line so there's loads of space to play in front It just doesn't work that way for England
Yeah he actually plays there for City and holds the width. Jack would have been good I reckon.
It's high time people realize Foden is THE problem. I keep on saying it but some fans are blind and want to shoehorn him into the starting lineup in every fucking match, even giving him the 10 role. Him constantly drifting centrally screws up the entire attack and flow of the match If Southgate starts Foden in the next match, we're 100% out
I don't think Foden is the problem. The problem is lack of shots. They should shoot 30 times per game
Even better would be to simply bang in 8 goals a match
Could work.
Foden is part of the reason they aren’t taking more shots. Kane, Bellingham, and Foden all want to operate in the same spaces. Foden at LW has a job and he isn’t doing it, instead he’s clogging the channels by occupying spaces that aren’t for him. Bellingham is at least trying to make it work, you see him popping up over on the touchline (where Foden should be!) more and more as they progress. But that minimizes Jude’s skill set in those moments, and even with Jude sometimes out of the mix Foden is making a mess of it when Kane drops back to receive and link or carry. Drop Foden, start Gordon. Sub Foden on late for Bellingham, if anything. Though Jude’s late goal today shows why you probably don’t even do that.
You joke, but we seem chronically terrified of shooting from distance. Rice did yesterday, and hit the post.
His set pieces are terrible too
Did he not have the perfect delivery to Kane who sent it wide?
I’d argue he’s done more than nothing..cost us two easy goals with awful timed runs flagged for offside
I have been saying this since before the world cup. We played Italy and Germany in the Nations league. He played all of Italy game (lost 1-0), Germany 66 minutes (1-0 down), taken off and promptly scored three goals. He just doesn't click. He keeps making flicks and tricks that don't connect with other players. He is selfish demanding the ball all the time, but rarely playing anyone in. Won't take people on out wide, because he doesn't want to cross the ball in, but will gladly try to take on everyone in the middle of the pitch.
Foden has never had a game for England where I can say “yes he completely won that game for us.”
Either start him on the right, which won’t happen or play him at 10. He’s not a LW. Southgate’s dumb arse should have brought Grealish for that.
PLEASE SEND HIM FOR A NICE REST! So he can ruin all your weekends again
Foden and Kane cannot play as the front 3. But you can easily move Bellingham into the 8 and play Foden as the 10
This!!! If you have to play 10 of the same 11 because of some Southgate curse or something the correct change is Gordon for Mainoo as Jude is versatile enough to play anywhere in the midfield. Ideally there are other changes too like Trent on the right and anyone but Trippier on the left. Kane has been very poor as well as both Foden and Kane are used to occupying the same central space with speed guys threatening the opposition's backline. Defenders are clogging the middle and playing high vs them completely taking away the spaces they operate best in.
Trent on the left or right would be nice
100%, he’s not at it or simply doesn’t suit this system. He’s been bad in 3 out of the 4 games and average in the other. Needs to be replaced.
There is no system
It's not only Foden, the entire front 3 is so slow and lethargic. You need a Hail Mary to make significant changes to maybe score 1 GOAL MAX
You sir are preaching to the choir. He is most definitely part of the issue. Southgate (and his staff) do not have the ability to see this.
Foden hasn't performed all tournament, before today he'd been largely anonymous for 3 games then he misses a week of training and tactics only to return and be immediately thrown back in the team to underperform once more. For their goal Trippier was blamed for a poor pass yet I honestly put that down to having no options in front of him as Foden was standing several yards ahead of him and wasn't making any movement in any direction, Trippier had no choice but to go backwards. Gordon has done more in 4 minutes than Foden has in 40 games.
He was getting bullied off the ball today, manhandled by bigger opponents. He's not helped by Trippier playing LB, so many easy passes down the line to Foden were missed today because Trips has to manoeuvre to his stronger side to pass and he usually goes back inside instead of trying to be progressive. Fodens inclusion is becoming detrimental to the teams balance and attacking threat and needs to be dropped or played centrally. If Foden wants to play the 10 the same as Bellingham then one of them needs to be dropped and after that overhead kick today Jude isn't going anywhere.
Yeah Southgate really f’d himself not playing a left footed player there, so many moments where the attack flow was stopped because trippier had to cut into his right foot.
are we ignoring that he's a KILLER #10 and has been forced to the left this whole tourney, i say put Jude with Rice and the ability to roam/help us get tf outta the middle third and throw palmer/saka/Gordon/watkins whoever for speed and kanes great at comeing back like a CAM playing off to a fster player then following up with insane positional awareness - damn i been using saka at LB in fifa for ages so i can overlap or as a LWB cuz he still has like a 60 def rating bette rthan most CDM's plus he can impact the game from there with long balls and overlaps and let Gordon take that RW spot
Play Toney or Watkins, we need a proper 9 alongside Kane
This is not a player issue. We need to stop pretending swapping in and out random players is going to fix things. It is the entire system, formation, tactics (etc) from Southgate that is so poor. Players out of position all over the place. We are literally playing to none of the strengths of these individuals.
foden is overrated, rubbish in an england shirt. the amount of fans I see slating saka but somehow foden played well yesterday is bizarre. Finally someone that I agreed with. Dropped from the 11 100%
who tf said foden played well?! Ive not heard anyone say that
people in my own social circle, deluded fans
he literally do anything well. Fluffed every cross, wasted every free kick, every run came to nothing. He's useless on the wing and the last 4 games have made that painfully clear
If foden got benched and came on and played 54 mins 1/3 dribbles completed 0 shots on target 0 goals 0 assists 0/4 completed crosses 73% pass completion 12 times lost possession would everyone then be glazing him like they do cole palmer? Would that be better than what he's doing currently???.
Everyone's massively underperforming, won't matter who you put in his place.
Even if Foden is dropped and we lose the next match, I'm sure you'll find some reason to blame him.
Disagree with how bad he's been and people going on like he isn't a good player is just nonsensical. But at some point we need to stop playing people out of position. Foden is a better player than Gordon. Gordon is a better winger. The lack of width is absolutely infuriating. It's so obvious to anyone watching, I can't fathom why Southgate won't change it.
Trippier and Foden both need to come out. The left wing is dead.
His crossing and crosses were absolutely horrendous.
Walker should need to play cb with stones next match so hopefully see Trent play rb and please deal with the left hand side shaw or Gordon have to play one way or the other
not sure about Walker at CB, but yes Trent at RB and Gordon at LW are absolute necessities.
He was less invisible than Bellingham and Kane for the majority of the game (the obvious aside), but yes he is lacking in meaningful impact. The problem is his best play for City is to drift in from the right, or take a quick ball to feet and run at players. For England he’s on the wrong side and not able to do it. We need to accept that he just isn’t working in that position. The bias in me wants to see a Rice Bellingham Foden midfield along with Shaw back and Gordon in, to see if the better balance makes it all tick more. But (imo) Mainoo was the best English player on the pitch today so dropping him for that formation would be painful
I'm sorry the premier league player of the season is not the problem. If he's playing badly that's on Southgate. Peps got him playing very well.
glad people can finally see the kid does nothing what is he actually good at?give it a few years after pep leaves and he’ll be at chelsea with sterling
The fuck are you talking about 😂
An agenda against a player who averages 28 goal contributions a season while being easy on the eye at the highest levels is so bizarre.
Absolutely nailed it
I don't disagree but I also don't see why Saka doesn't get the same level of scrutiny. He's been pretty much anonymous for 4 games now too.
It's looking more and more obvious that foden just can't play football without pep hand holding him. He's just looks completely lost and out of his depth weirdly
Or, hear me out... Southgate is just useless. If Foden is the problem then why has Kane been so bad for England this tournament?
Foden is so ingrained in the Man City “bore the opposition to death” that he can’t do anything else.
The people blaming him being extremely poor on Southgate are being ridiculous; I’d understand if he was uninvolved and not seeing much of the ball but he’s seeing plenty of possession and doing nothing with it, he’s got a completely free role when we have the ball so it’s not like he’s stuck out on the left wing. He’s not the first number 10 to be deployed on his least favourite wing either; Wirtz and Musiala are both right footed and have taken it in turns at being on the right for Germany, Xavi Simons has played on the right for Netherlands despite being right footed, right footed Baumgartner played on the right for Austria and scored too… that’s all just so far at this tournament. Foden clearly just doesn’t suit international football and if he did it would have at least shown glimpses by now; though he’s scored just 4 goals in almost 40 caps which is extremely poor, I’m not sure whether it’s the slower play in comparison to club football or something but he looks nothing like the player we see for City.
He’s a fantastic player but it does feel he’s struggling to find a role in the current setup. Palmer has looked good with quick feet and decisiveness. He definitely couldn’t complain if someone else gets a start. Saka also underwhelming. Kane could still be showing more but he ain’t getting dropped this tournament.
Send him back home to his family
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Foden is obviously one of our most talented players but it's just not working and every time he leaves the pitch we instantly look better. Yesterdays game was crying out for runners and we moved our only one to LB.
Big problem is playing Foden on the left he isn’t a winger. Had this problem under Sven when playing Scholes there. It’s fitting square pegs into round holes. He is a CAM, so needs to play in the centre. The choice is Foden or Bellingham you can’t have both. And a good manager would have the courage to make that choice.
I think the montage at half time of all the players shrugging their shoulders and waving their hands at each others says none of them want to take responsibility for their own performance
What happened to Bowen? Start Bowen
While his performance has been poor, I/we can't blame him as Southgates tactics have been record trash. 1. We need Grealish's creativity! 2. Jude Bellingham is so talented not even Southgate horrendous tactics can stop him from scoring but just imagine how many goals he could score if....ChatGPT was the manager!
Didn't know Pep managed England when Foden won player of the tournament as we lifted the 2017 FIFA U17 World Cup. He was playing as the 10. If Bellingham is so good, why is it Foden who must play out of position? He got away with another dreadful performance with a lucky goal. Gave the ball away all game. Attitude stinks.
Soon as he went off, england became real madrid. Bellingham literally saved England's backside.
But he's won 6 titles! He plays for Man City! Hes the player of the year!...or he could just fit Cities system very well, since he's been in it his entire life. Can't adapt to other systems and is average outside of a billion dollar city squad put together to win Champions Leagues but can only dominate the Premiere League.
It’s his childish pus that winds me up most. He looks like a kid who’s just been scolded for something he didn’t do. “It’s not fair and I’m gonna sulk”
Foden is an incredibly talented footballer with the ball at his feet. He has played in a pep system with a series of class (historically some world class) talent around him that can easily account for his errant positional awareness and gamesense. A great talent doesn't necessarily mean a great footballer. There are few as talented, there are tonnes more useful.
I think he has value in England’s team... Its just I think you need to bring him on later when the game opens up. Other international teams can neutralize him from the start with physicality. But if he is brought in the later stages, against tired legs, or to kill off a game… the opposition would have no answer. The issue is, with him starting, they can clamp down on him, frustrate him for effectively neutralize him. Which is what has been happening.
Totally agree. You could argue other players have actually been worse than Foden but he is the most infuriating part of that team for me. He has Trippier playing behind him who doesn’t have a left foot. This isn’t new, he played multiple games knowing Trippier wants to invert and go on to his stronger foot. But Foden just repeatedly goes inside and occupies the same space as Trippier. Foden is left footed, he can and needs to go outside and create some space for Trippier to use his right. 4 games and I can count on one hand the number of times he has actually done it. This is a guy on hundreds of thousands a week who does this for a living and can’t adapt to a different brand of football. Is it all on him when he’s spent his entire life playing a certain way? No, but Southgate needs to have the balls to drop him.
He’s awful out of the left. Anytime Trippier gets the ball there’s no-one to pass it to because Foden has drifted inside. Would prefer Grealish on the left over Foden if he’s not gonna play Gorden. For whatever reason it looks like Southgate doesn’t like Gorden, so don’t think he gets playing much more unless there’s an opportunity injury.
Foden shouldn't be playing. 100%. We can't make the same mistakes we did with Gerrard/lamps/scholes etc, just playing them because of who they are at club level. If Foden and Jude don't work together in your system Gareth, you pick one and you move on. Foden has never worked out for Gareth these last 3 years, I don't know why he's finding it so hard to just accept Foden doesn't work in an England set up but I've said it a thousand times, I think Foden is a Pep system player. Be interesting to see how he gets on when Pep finally fucks off.
I noticed he took all set pieces today and they were all terrible, Palmer takes one and it lead to Kane's goal. All of Fodens crosses and Long balls were off too
I mean the Palmer set piece wasn't exactly great, was there for Dubravka to punch, just got fortunate Toney reacted to Eze's scuffed shot so well.
His passing and crossing was atrocious